Star Trek: Picard: Surrender
April 6, 2023 4:35 AM - Season 3, Episode 8 - Subscribe

While Lore flips through Data's historical documents, Jean-Luc struggles to convince a desperate Jack to never give up.

And when there's vandals in its edits, Memory Alpha can NEVer surRENder:

• The Riker house on Nepenthe appeared in the PIC season 1 episode of the same name (FF previously).

"That house—it's like it was designed by a cabal of retro prairie hipsters."
- Troi, on the Riker family house on Nepenthe

"Look, Vadic, if at any point you want to stop talking in batshit circles, I'm all ears."
- Jack

Poster's Log:
Slow-ass opening to this one, but worth it for the solid payoff of the ship being retaken. I can grouse about this production team's lighting and dialogue choices, but they can do exhilarating action.

There's something meta-thematic about Data's callback knickknacks saving the day when you consider Stream Trek's preoccupation with physical memorabilia (c.f. the opening credits of DISCO and the other PIC seasons). I'm glad Lore is finally, really, fully, irretrievably dead, probably.

The Riker-Troi unpacking-stuff scene worked for me inasmuch as it fleshed out the Thad story, though I still don't know if I buy Riker taking off.

Poster's Log, Behind the Red Door:
…I mean, it's gotta be the Borg Queen, right? Consider:
- Vadic's talk of isolation followed by "so many voices"
- Troi characterizing the darkness as "ancient and weak"—weakened, possibly, by both Future Janeway in "Endgame" and by conflict with Agnes of Borg; this implies they may have gotten Alice Krige to come back
- the modifications to the Changelings seeming somewhat technological, or at least accelerated
- the fact that this show is basically about TNG (I was seriously considering V'Ger but (A) who gives a shit about V'Ger? and (B) TMP didn't imply that V'Ger was as malevolent as this, IIRC)
- the fact that this series is ostensibly about Picard, though he's been sidelined a bit for the last several episodes, so they've gotta bring it back around to an enemy with a special connection to him
- Seven's central role throughout

We have two episodes of this show left. If I'm right, I'd guess the next episode is mainly focused on Jack learning what the whole deal is (e.g., perhaps Voyager's return from the Delta Quadrant, just a few years after the Dominion War ended, inspired these Rogue Changelings to go looking for an "enemy of my enemy" to team up with) and then becoming Neo-Locutus, and the finale is him plus the big Whatever-It-Was at the end of season 2 plus Compromised Starfleet versus our heroes (mainly Jean-Luc and Seven). In the end, Jack overcomes the Queen's influence enough to save the day by sacrificing himself heroically and/or he barely survives, his Queen-granted powers lost. (My bet is he lives. I don't see this show ending on that tragic a note.)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil (60 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
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posted by Marticus at 5:11 AM on April 6, 2023 [4 favorites]


That was a trip. Poor T'Veen; gone too soon.

The Mystery Thing has to have something to do with the Borg, right? Special connection to Picard; stuff stolen from Picard's meat brain; "fitting" for Seven to stay and witness this; references to loneliness; "there's really no point resisting" (I seeeeee what you did there)... it can't not be the Borg, right? But it would be kind of boring if it were just the Borg. We've already seen so much Borg stuff in this show. And some of the details just don't fit. Lots of people have brought up the Pah-Wraith vibes, and I have to say I noticed the sudden focus on the Bajoran crewman on the bridge, and Vadic gets very excited about ears, and Pah-Wraiths are fallen Prophets, and Prophets exist outside of linear time, and Picard's alleged IS caused him to... experience being detached from linear time. The Borg and the Pah-Wraiths... together? Hmmmm.

It seems way too late in the season to introduce something that only DS9 fans already know about, but maybe we're about to be hit with a heroic serving of exposition. The only thing that would excuse this week's cliffhanger (seriously? again?!) is a reveal that requires considerable setup to make sense, which is why it can't happen at the end of an episode.

I could see the Data/Lore resolution coming from the moment they found him, but it was a good idea and well-executed. This gets (mostly) Data back without completely retconning Original Flavour Data's decision to die. And it lets Brent Spiner do something a bit different and fun.

Is Troi a changeling? I'm assuming not mostly for Doylist reasons -- it would undercut the emotional impact of her already brief appearance and undo a lot of significant character development. How did she know there was a "door"? Because it's a common visual metaphor for hidden or suppressed information in a person's mind (like a locked box), and she's probably seen tons of them before.

But also for Doylist reasons it seems inevitable that in a changeling takeover story we're going to have a shock reveal about someone in the main cast.

I held out hope until the very end that Vadic would survive. [Blasted into vacuum] That's OK; changelings can survive that, right? [Freezing sounds] Well, that's not good, but they can thaw her out no problem back on the Shrike. [Bonk] [Smash] Look, they probably have a dustpan and brush aboard. [Seven blows up the Shrike] Welp.

Good villain; sad to see her go, but I guess she signed her own narrative warrant after executing a named member of the bridge crew.

I thought that some of the reunion moments in this episode were a bit over the top, but there was nothing too egregious. This is probably the last time this cast will ever get together like this.

Semi-related: I recently found out about Gates McFadden's podcast, and I inhaled the whole thing in two days. She interviews members of the Star Trek cast (not just TNG; and also Michael Westmore, the makeup artist). It's not about Star Trek at all; it's about the people -- their thoughts about their childhoods, careers, and other significant events in their lives. It's fascinating, and it was a particularly interesting accompaniment to this reunion.
posted by confluency at 5:51 AM on April 6, 2023 [12 favorites]


That was a trip. Poor T'Veen; gone too soon.

Necessary, I guess, so Troi could show off HER mind-meld skills!
posted by thejoshu at 7:32 AM on April 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


The overly long shot of the meth changeling really cracked me up. The whole series has been needlessly violent, lost count of how many kills we've seen, not to mention the absolute butchering of every legacy character.
posted by GoblinHoney at 7:56 AM on April 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


"Look, Vadic, if at any point you want to stop talking in batshit circles, I'm all ears."

Best line of the episode for me; as much as I enjoyed Amanda Plummer's performance it was getting tiring watching her carry so much weight while also having to stall the reveal of any really critical plot information.

And I got my question regarding changelings in space from last week answered.

Necessary, I guess, so Troi could show off HER mind-meld skills!

All I kept wondering was when she became full telepath. "There's a darkness on this ship" - it might just be the lighting decisions, Troi, and not Jack.

The Mystery Thing has to have something to do with the Borg, right?

I keep trying to come up with something else, but it seems the most likely. And it would be interesting to see an alliance of sorts between the Borg (who adapt through technology) and the changelings (who are adaptative biology). It brings in Shaw's backstory along with Seven's. But I'm also honestly tired of the Borg and how that moment haunts Picard; would be nice if this is some threat we've all kind of forgotten about over the years.
posted by nubs at 9:08 AM on April 6, 2023 [6 favorites]


I'll say one thing about Vadic: given last ep's reveal about how these alt-Founders were created, you might make a case for how they were exceptionally cruel due to imitating that one scientist's behavior and not just their face. (Given this season's preoccupation with parents and children, you might even consider the nameless scientist as Vadic's sort-of parent, in the mode of Odo and Mora Pol on DS9.) Still, not terribly sad to see them and the Shrike go, especially considering that they're probably headed toward Earth now and the Shrike having had so much ordnance on board.

Still kinda iffy about tying the Borg in, although it makes about as much sense as anything. I thought that the "Agnes of Borg" ending for last season was a decent send-off, for now.

Poor T'Veen; gone too soon.

Yeah, especially since I was interested in their getting into the Deltan-Vulcan mix aspect of their abilities. Maybe they had a sibling that's also in Starfleet? The Deltans seem to have been mostly ignored since TMP and I was thinking that T'Veen might have gone some ways toward "redeeming" the concept of the Deltans as being more than just Roddenberry being horny on main, in the way that D'Vana Tendi on Lower Decks has done for the Orions.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:45 AM on April 6, 2023 [4 favorites]


"Ancient and weak", "Roaming from planet to planet, species to species", "There's a darkness on this ship"... maybe behind the RED door in JACk's head is an old TOS villain.
posted by hanov3r at 9:47 AM on April 6, 2023 [12 favorites]


I watched the preview clip, which hilariously is completely unhelpful in the worst way.

I forgot: I am delighted 1) that Shaw has survived another episode, and is upset about it, and 2) by the running joke that nobody likes Picard's wine.
posted by confluency at 10:13 AM on April 6, 2023 [13 favorites]


clever, hanov3r. unlikely, but clever.
not much to add except to say yay, they found a way to bring back Spot, and Tasha Yar!
(did we all see Data's memories as the Trojan horse? patting myself on the back for that. taking away same pats on back for missing the Borg clues.)
posted by martin q blank at 11:12 AM on April 6, 2023 [5 favorites]


maybe behind the RED door in JACk's head is an old TOS villain.


That would be a very deep cut, and it would be a big twist; I don't see it happening as I don't think that particular episode has the cachet of all the other Trek nostalgia that's been on display plus I kind of think they want to tie this all back to Picard in some way - bringing in something from TOS that the TNG crew never encountered would not have the emotional stakes in the same way.
posted by nubs at 11:43 AM on April 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


This is the time for the parasite aliens from TNG S1 to shine! Longest time between showing Chekhov's gun and having it go off? lol
posted by dhens at 12:47 PM on April 6, 2023 [11 favorites]


We will find out what's really going on with Ash Tilly Jack's altered perceptions and the Red Angel Room in the next couple episodes
posted by StarkRoads at 2:23 PM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]


When a Pah-wraith takes over a lifeform, they have those red eyes…
posted by rhymedirective at 3:28 PM on April 6, 2023 [3 favorites]


Like since they’re going so hard on Changelings this season the most logical/easiest explanation is also something from DS9.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:29 PM on April 6, 2023


Last thought (probably): my favourite thing about the Data / Lore plotline is that Data's gambit both is and is not a trap.

Yes, Data anticipates that while Lore claims to be destroying Data's memories he actually won't be able to resist keeping them as trophies, and therefore encourages him to take more and more of them, knowing that he's turning himself into Data.

But at the same time I believe that Data is being completely sincere in his desire to share these meaningful experiences with his brother, out of love, because he recognises that they are things of which he has been deprived. That's why he takes the time to explain each thing and what it means to him. I thought that this made the scene genuinely touching, and the resolution satisfying.
posted by confluency at 4:27 PM on April 6, 2023 [19 favorites]


With regard to Jack's Red Door,
[Potential A Song of Ice and Fire spoiler]It reminds me of Daenerys Targaryen always having memories of the House with Red Door in Braavos where she lived as a child after being whisked away at the tail end of Robert's Rebellion.

posted by dhens at 5:06 PM on April 6, 2023


I find it extremely funny that this episode ends on basically exactly the same cliffhanger as the one before. It's like watching one of the weaker seasons of 24. Looking forward to the season/series ending on the cliffhanger: what is Jack's deal, anyway

This episode was weird because, like, it kind of didn't contain any surprises? Basically everything felt fairly predictable, and the writing was kind of a throwback to the quality of the first two seasons. It's a shame that Vadic is gone because she was a real fun scenery-chewing villain. Really enjoyed having her around, and I feel like the two remaining episodes won't be able to top that as they tie things up.

Speaking of the first two seasons… I kind of can't escape the thought, more and more, that this should have been the first season. Not just because it's significantly less bad than the first two were, but also because, like… it's so nostalgia-centric that it would have made a lot of sense to start with the nostalgic pandering and then focus on new plotlines. At least doing things this way might get us a new Strange New Worlds with Shaw as the captain. I get Sisko-style pragmatist vibes from him that I continue to enjoy.

In any case: even if I'm only watching this show out of sunk costs, it's almost over either way. Hopefully the ending will trend closer in quality to most of this season than to most of the first two seasons!
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:26 PM on April 6, 2023 [4 favorites]


This was a thrilling episode, and sorta an all in one bite experience. The nostalgia is soothing, and the love, and the bravery, camaraderie, all the good things, that we would like to have in current events. Plus a loving last look at some fitting ideals.
posted by Oyéah at 6:46 PM on April 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


I was really starting to wonder if Vadic's hand/face was Armus somehow? He'd really pollute the Great Link with malevolence and a big grudge against Picard.
posted by tomboko at 6:47 PM on April 6, 2023 [3 favorites]


Semi-related: I recently found out about Gates McFadden's podcast, and I inhaled the whole thing in two days.

I find out about InvestiGates through the also charming and interesting The Shuttlepod Show hosted by Connor Trineer and Dominic Keating from Enterprise. Gates McFadden was a great guest as are many others from across the various series, actors and production staff. I found Andrew Robinson quite interesting and the incredibly underused on Enterprise, Anthony Montgomery, but really all of them are quite good.
posted by juiceCake at 7:02 PM on April 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


Nerdist on a potential (NOT greenlit) "Legacy" follow-up series which TBH sounds pretty good to me.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 5:51 AM on April 7, 2023


When the full TNG crew finally completely assembled and sat around the conference table, I said to my wife, "Let's have a space meeting!". I always loved that part of TNG. Meetings in space. Sometimes I just like to see competent people make a plan. Forget the starships and aliens; that's the true science fiction right there.
posted by Servo5678 at 7:02 AM on April 7, 2023 [18 favorites]


Well they teased us one more week about Jack's Secret Powers. I didn't lose it though, they revealed enough of it to satisfy and keep me interested. Also he finally got to tell mom & dad about his puberty experience mental powers. But the big reveal is Troi at the end saying "there's a darkness around him, but not in him". So...

Haunted by Pah Wraiths would make a lot of sense but I hope they don't do that. Because the whole DS9 Wormhole Alien / Prophets / Pah Wraiths story was so great, a rare interesting case of religion in sci-fi. Having a late reveal here with no context, not even a vedek on the ship to smoke some incense, would reduce all that world building of 25 years ago to a Monster of the Week. Also apparently this all has to do with Picard's Irumodic Syndrome and that's nothing to do with DS9's stories.

I found the Troi / Riker scene hashing through their marriage problems really moving. I've hated a lot of the nostalgia mining in the show but this part really worked. Maybe just because of the difficulty of having a Betazoid wife who means well but has her own emotional needs and also acts on a whole level of emotional communication you never will.

My one disappointment was with Vadic; I felt they wasted her character here at the end. Not as shards of frozen protoplasm goo, that was pretty great. But her writing this episode devolved into basic mustache twirling. "Which hostage will I execute after I torture them psychologically" is just too cliché a set piece, was hoping for something more interesting. Also was hoping for more Captain Asshole although so much was happening on the bridge already, it was a good choice to leave room for Seven there in the story.

The Data/Lore stuff did nothing from me, it was like a story from a totally different show. Also apparently Raffi was in this episode? Poor Raffi, she got robbed in the writer's room. In retrospect Jurati and Elnor and Rios all made the right choice to go back to their home planets last season. (Remember those characters? What a weird show!).
posted by Nelson at 7:11 AM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]


Having a late reveal here with no context

It's very possible that we've already seen a Pah-wraith on the show (Vadic's handler (see what I did there))
posted by rhymedirective at 8:35 AM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


I was disappointed that Data didn't whip out a green visor and a deck of cards at the end
posted by jordemort at 11:13 AM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


The cards, at least, appeared.

(did we all see Data's memories as the Trojan horse? patting myself on the back for that. taking away same pats on back for missing the Borg clues.)

We had the exact same experience. The moment Data said, "my memories are me," I was all, "ooh yeah, you keep taking those callbacks to TNG Lore!" But I completely failed on every account for the Borg references.

I appreciate that the writers lampshaded Data's death in Season 1, recognizing that there was a collective "wait wait wait a second" coming from the fanbase. And well, I'm a glutton for Brent Spiner's Data and Lore, so I enjoyed this twist and the idea that Data did deserve the opportunity to grow old with friends as one last element of humanity to learn and enjoy. I also knock aside anything for more Geordi and Data content. It was cool to see Tasha Yar get a shout out.

All I kept wondering was when she became full telepath. "There's a darkness on this ship" - it might just be the lighting decisions, Troi, and not Jack.

Remember, Troi's telepathic abilities have always reflected a story's need or a silly joke by her mother at Troi's expense.

Vadic was a good villain. I also thought a good Star Trek villain because the best Star Trek villains always like to hear themselves talk. Khan, General Chang, the Borg Queen, and so on, they all fancied themselves smarter than the good people of Starfleet.

I appreciated the dialogue between Troi and Riker, but at the same time, it felt like a leap, regarding Riker just taking off. It's presented like he disappeared for an extended length of time, whereas, at least as a viewer, Picard season 1 wasn't that long ago in-universe. I was partially convinced they were going to do something awful to Deanna when she started probing his mind. Given that there was a report that the guy who's job it was to edit these last two upcoming episodes was found crying...has me anxious!
posted by Atreides at 1:39 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


Also apparently Raffi was in this episode?

Yeah, it really did feel like that when she came on screen.
posted by biffa at 2:16 PM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


OH man, Terry Matalas and his Red Things; he's almost as bad as Abrams with his giant red balls. In 12 Monkeys, it was a red forest that everyone was obsessed with, now we've got a red door.

So glad to see Shaw still survives; please let there be a series where he gets to go around being practical and assholey and snarky throughout the galaxy. I loved the when Seven practically spit in his face that her name was Seven of Nine, he just kind of rolled with it and then let her blow the Shrike up.

I didn't think I'd care about the Riker-Trois hashing out their marriage issues, but I also found it well done and more relatable than I'd have expected. And it was so nice to see Spot again and to see how much Data cares for him. Orange tabbies are the best.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 3:40 PM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


Vadic's lighter seems incredibly over-engineered (inferred from the [de-?]"powered" sound effect) for the flame that it produces.

I did dig Worf reintroducing himself to Troi.
posted by porpoise at 3:46 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


Damn, I wanted Data to play a prank on his friends after subsuming Lore. At least he pranked Geordi.
posted by porpoise at 4:04 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


My favourite episode of PICARD is from season one, the one with Riker and Troi and their kid at their house in the forest. That felt like a really great way to bring those characters back and I thought it was perhaps the best episode Troi ever had. Leave it to this show to totally rewrite that episode by saying Riker is bad at pizza and they don't like that place in the woods anymore.

Even the scene in the cell with Riker and Troi was shot and edited in such a strange way. Imagine if this show trusted actors to do their job and not keep forcing unmotivated camera movements on them.

I'm glad this show is almost over. Truly even the good ideas are badly executed - the Data/Lore struggle to take over the positronic body was done in the laziest dramatic way. Imagine if anyone on this show could write dramatic dialogue, where these two characters could try to undermine each other rather than Data winning just because that's what the writers want. I'm glad this is the last we see of Lore.

I hope Vadic is dead. I think that would be a strong choice but then again this show never makes strong choices.

The answer to who/what Jack is cannot ever be satisfying now. There's not enough time for it to land and play out in an interesting way. If it's fucking Pah Wraiths, I'm going to lose my mind. It absolutely will be the Borg because that's all this show has ever been about.
posted by crossoverman at 5:49 PM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


Considering that this was the "we finally have the whole gang back together" episode, it was a huge letdown.

Squeezing all of the emotion of the story of Riker and Troi into one scene was disappointing. There's so much more to explore there. Marina's limited availability to be in Hollywood for shooting undoubtedly impacted this, but they could have done more. And it felt like a cheap shot to diss "Nepenthe", which was the best episode of Season 1 AND 2. I did like the awkward reunion with Worf, though he seems to have forgotten all about Jadzia in his undying afmiration for Deanna.

Dragging out Jack's reveal is inexcusable, since it completely undermined Vadic as the villain. She should have been the one to do it, delighting in whatever anguish it would cause for the other characters. Now it will be anti-climactic, whatever it is, but espeically if it's just "Oh no, more Borg!"

When did people start disappearing in a burst of sparks from phaser fire? In the old days, they just vaporized in a halo of light.
posted by briank at 6:24 AM on April 8, 2023 [4 favorites]


I hope Vadic is dead. I think that would be a strong choice but then again this show never makes strong choices.

Spaced, frozen, shattered… and then at ground zero of multiple photon torpedo impacts that triggered a warp core breach on a vessel that has all the weapons. So I’m betting dead unless her consciousness somehow survived through linking.
posted by nathan_teske at 9:25 AM on April 8, 2023


I really enjoyed the Deanna-Will scene -- two mature people discovering and working through some married-people stuff, and a believable sketch of what difficulties Deanna would have with her empathy in the midst of familial crisis.

The hostages on the bridge stuff.... Torture porn of that type (even if it's mostly psychological) is not Star Trek to me. Chain of Command is about the triumph of the spirit, of Starfleet values, of the defeat of the torturer mentally as well as physically; this was just sordid.
posted by brainwane at 10:13 AM on April 8, 2023 [5 favorites]


Most disappointed that Data did not make a "You are what you eat" quip, though i did wonder what happened to b-4 amongst all the prop-chewing.
posted by Sparx at 2:36 PM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]


I'm kind of hoping the pair we see ends up actually being Tom Riker and Changeling Deanna (each being impressed with themselves at how well they're fooling the "real" spouse) and both remain so committed to the bit that they go off and live happily ever after in a fantastic big city apartment, while the three real Riker-Trois who never left Nepenthe are wondering why their old friends never call anymore.

As for Jack, I can't decide if Redjac is a red herring. So many little details do line up! Being known by many names, being wanted on Rigel IV, the empath sensing an ancient evil... and, you know, the body-hopping and murdering a bunch of crew in a trance (even if they did end up being the bad guys). But Pah Wraiths are a more logical choice, and I can just imagine some intern helping Picard pack up his artifacts accidentally smashing a Bajoran statuette and releasing one.
posted by Poogle at 5:58 PM on April 8, 2023 [4 favorites]


Jacks red eyes, and the red lady. Or Jack was whipped up from Picard's dead body, not so long ago, and his mom is changeling material. Why Beverly Crusher vanished is because she is no more, and the current Beverly Crusher is the red lady, or the red lady is the Red Angel from discovery.
posted by Oyéah at 9:37 PM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]


Didn't Troi say that the Changeling Riker was good in bed? Which means she slept with them? But also didn't she say that she figured out that they were an impostor as soon as they showed up?

Also, my household is still rooting for the theory that Jack's inhabited by the sex candle ghost from Sub Rosa.
posted by brainwane at 3:55 AM on April 9, 2023 [4 favorites]


I'm 100% sure that Troi was joking about sleeping with the changeling.
posted by confluency at 4:25 AM on April 9, 2023 [11 favorites]


Spaced, frozen, shattered… and then at ground zero of multiple photon torpedo impacts that triggered a warp core breach on a vessel that has all the weapons.

It did seem pretty excessive. Unless someone is Rasputin, they don’t come back from that.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:06 PM on April 9, 2023 [2 favorites]


There could be another instance of the same character somehow- or someone else wearing their face? Nothing would surprise me at this point, I'm expecting the unexpected!
posted by Coaticass at 7:33 PM on April 9, 2023 [1 favorite]


Could Vadic be the Dominion's greatest love machine?
posted by biffa at 3:55 AM on April 10, 2023 [7 favorites]


The hostages on the bridge stuff.... Torture porn of that type (even if it's mostly psychological) is not Star Trek to me. Chain of Command is about the triumph of the spirit, of Starfleet values, of the defeat of the torturer mentally as well as physically; this was just sordid.

Tv Trek, no. Movie Trek? Yes, or very similar. Khan does horrible things to people and Doc Brown Klingon pretty much threatens just like Vadic until David Kirk tries to save Saavik and has an impromptu surgery to the heart.
posted by Atreides at 7:06 AM on April 10, 2023


In the original series, in "Errand of Mercy", Kor threatens to murder Organian hostages (and does kill some immediately prior to the announcement) if Kirk and Spock aren't given up. (The Organians are actually fine, but Kor doesn't know that.) In "Space Seed"--Khan's original appearance--he uses a decompression chamber as a torture device. In "By Any Other Name", the Kelvans murder a crewmember just to prove that they're not screwing around. In "The Empath", McCoy is tortured nearly to the point of death; in "Patterns of Force", the space Nazis leave green bruises all over Spock. There are actually other examples, but I think that I've made my point.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:51 AM on April 10, 2023 [1 favorite]


Oh, and TOS also introduced two devices specifically for torture: the agonizer (a hand-held device) and the agony booth, both in "Mirror, Mirror", and the Klingons were shown to have their own version of the agonizer in "Day of the Dove."
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:59 AM on April 10, 2023 [1 favorite]


Also: what's behind the red door
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:13 AM on April 10, 2023


(re: the TOS torture scenes) Wow, that's terrible. I have only watched a handful of original series episodes so I didn't realize there's so much torture in there!

The particularly drawn-out scene of the hostages getting toyed with, the lingering on the cruelty and suffering of it, was just so gross. I'm not used to it in Star Trek and I don't care for it, and to me it isn't in keeping with what I want and like in Trek; if past Trek has done this too (with lots of lingering shots of people crying, etc.) then I am not fond of that either. I much prefer the threads in Trek where the violence is a bit offscreen or shown out of the corner of one's eye, and where hostages show heroism (as that one Titan bridge officer did, refusing to break his moral code), keep a stiff upper lip, outscheme and outlast the torturer, etc.

And in this episode we do see some of that kind of creativity and dignity and indomitable spirit in a character who seems trapped by a torturer: in how Data overcomes Lore. That was neat.

Also, it's been fun to think about long-forgotten TNG villains who could come back for this season. Hey, are we absolutely sure the Crystalline Entity got completely destroyed?
posted by brainwane at 11:16 AM on April 10, 2023 [2 favorites]


Also, it's been fun to think about long-forgotten TNG villains who could come back for this season.

We had Q return before. Now it is Groppler Zorn’s moment to shine.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:29 AM on April 10, 2023 [6 favorites]


I saw a YT video where they laid out the case for the villain to be Armus from "Skin of Evil" and this show is so batshit insane, it really might be.

I wish it was the worms from the S1 TNG episode "Conspiracy".

But it's going to be some kind of Borg thing because of the comment Vadic made about it being fitting that Seven was there for the reveal, before the reveal didn't happen. There was also a mention earlier in the season that the retcon of the Borg last season wasn't really what it looked like and the Borg are still out there, so...

In any case, this season is so chaotic, I'm not sure if it will make sense dramatically or emotionally.
posted by crossoverman at 4:53 PM on April 10, 2023 [1 favorite]


I much prefer the threads in Trek where the violence is a bit offscreen or shown out of the corner of one's eye, and where hostages show heroism (as that one Titan bridge officer did, refusing to break his moral code), keep a stiff upper lip, outscheme and outlast the torturer, etc.

This is my preference, too. I was comfortable watching it, but there is a point, usually found in horror films, where the infliction of pain and suffering is something I will literally close my eyes to.

Reflecting on violence in Trek, but particularly this season, I've noticed that there's been a high propensity for vaporization versus shooting someone and a dead body dropping to the floor.
posted by Atreides at 6:37 AM on April 11, 2023


Hey, are we absolutely sure the Crystalline Entity got completely destroyed?

Are the comics canon? The eponymous series is talking about just that. With Sisko! And other godlike entities!

And if you thought Picard was full of fan service, you ain't seen nothing yet.
posted by Kyol at 11:08 AM on April 11, 2023 [1 favorite]


it's going to be some kind of Borg thing because of the comment Vadic made about it being fitting that Seven was there for the reveal

Badmiral Janeway would fit that description...
posted by biffa at 1:09 AM on April 12, 2023


Apparently the website selling tickets to the IMAX showing of the finale two-parter is experiencing the Internet Hug of Death. I don't have a horse in this race because I'm not even on the right continent, but it does bring a tear to my eye that the season has been popular enough for this to happen.
posted by confluency at 10:09 AM on April 12, 2023 [1 favorite]


The IMAX thing is so poorly planned. We know the cities, but not which theater or what time the showing will start. The site is hugged to death right now. Even if you get a ticket somehow, it doesn't guarantee a seat. They will give out more tickets than seats, so unless you line up early, you won't get in even with a ticket. Clearly the marketing behind this just wants photos/video of a packed house, and the logistics of how we get to that is "too bad, so sad" for those who want to go.
posted by Servo5678 at 10:21 AM on April 12, 2023 [1 favorite]


So the IMAX screenings have been as well-planned as the season then?
posted by crossoverman at 5:03 PM on April 12, 2023 [2 favorites]


Turns out the IMAX screening is at 9:15pm ET on a Wednesday. Some of us have to work the next day! I got the website to load and offer me tickets, but I passed once I got the details. I’d fall asleep during the show.
posted by Servo5678 at 7:38 PM on April 12, 2023


I appreciate that the writers lampshaded Data's death in Season 1, recognizing that there was a collective "wait wait wait a second" coming from the fanbase. And well, I'm a glutton for Brent Spiner's Data and Lore, so I enjoyed this twist and the idea that Data did deserve the opportunity to grow old with friends as one last element of humanity to learn and enjoy. I also knock aside anything for more Geordi and Data content. It was cool to see Tasha Yar get a shout out.

Yes, I really appreciated all that too. Data's return was the emotional center of the episode... culminating in that lovely reunion of the whole crew. It may have been fanservice, and the writing may have continued its constant zigzagging between half-decent and hackish, but damn, it felt so good to have the gang back together.

Other thoughts:

- I felt like the deck of cards was a tipoff that Data was being strategic.

- Spiner did a great job imbuing New Data with some Lore-ish qualities.

- I have not been particularly charmed by Amanda Plummer's eccentric and laborious scenery chewing, and was really quite over Vadic by the end of this episode... so I couldn't be more pleased at her fate.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:38 PM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]


A zillion years ago I enjoyed the "Five-Minute Enterprise" parody recaps that often ended with "(Enterprise heads off at Ludicrous Speed)". Today, I discovered that Star Trek: Picard gets humorous recaps by Manic Pixie Dust in the form of screen-captures with funny captions, and enjoyed the one for "Surrender", particularly the jokes on pages 10, 11, 16, and 18.
posted by brainwane at 2:05 PM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]


Count me among those who saw the Data/Lore gambit a mile away. I think it would've been fine if they had just cut the line "my memories are me" - he could've explained it afterwards. It's ok to trust your audience to pick up things from context. It's like how they had Geordi exclaim "Lore!" every time Spiner smirked. Yes, we got it, thanks.

Fine episode. I was genuinely moved when the whole gang assembled in the conference room, even though I knew I was being manipulated.

Hoping the big reveal is not Borg-related. That would seem like back-sliding after S2. But I'm also hoping it's not some half-remembered baddie from back in the vault. I'm old and can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, let alone transitory villains from 30 years ago.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:33 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]


Shaw doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who decorates his meeting rooms with swords.
posted by bq at 9:00 AM on August 27, 2023


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