Star Trek: Picard: Dominion
March 30, 2023 4:37 AM - Season 3, Episode 7 - Subscribe
While Data battles his alternate, Vadic tells the misbegotten tale of her not-so-Great Link.
Isn't Memory Alpha adorable?:
• Chin'toka was the site of two major Dominion War battles, seen in DS9 seasons six and seven.
• In 2372, a year before the Dominion War began, Section 31 originated the morphogenic virus described here.
"I'm as good as dead. Just like you."
- Changeling Will Riker
"He's not for me. We could bond over that, since he was never really for you either."
- Vadic, to Beverly, about Jack
Poster's Log:
Well, if this season has a theme, it's looking like "engineering an unnatural monstrosity is always gonna backfire on you": Vadic, Jack (I presume, when he is key to the baddies' defeat at the end), Lore, maybe even Golem-JL.
Jack officially has too many powers now, which suggests to me that he will not in fact helm a spinoff—unless the resolution of this season involves him losing some of them. OTOH, with great powers comes a great weakness: not being able to remember that you're holding a phaser when your ally is getting beaten up.
The Scene with the Iffiest Writing award this time goes to Jean-Luc and Beverly discussing their strained morality in such a fashion that we almost expect them to look into the camera. I mean, I believe that those two characters would be that direct about it, but they didn't need to discuss it so much. I guess it wouldn't be Stream Trek if they left it unsaid. But in all seriousness, I'm not sure yet how I feel about them appearing to be ready to execute a prisoner (a la the ENT-era mindset), despite the choice to include that acknowledgment. The simplest explanation is that it was an attempt at that DS9 style of moral ambiguity (about which one usually points to "In the Pale Moonlight", but let's not forget "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges").
Vadic's handset scene this time suggests the Big Bad is no Changeling/Founder; I really have no good guess about that reveal. But it would be weirdly awesome if it was one of the familiar faces from the penultimate episode of TNG season 1. …I mean, this being PIC season 3, it really HAS to be the return of SOMEbody we know, right? A lost Weyoun? Armus? A very bored Kevin Uxbridge? That cloud thing from that one Bajoran village? One of these guys? V-Ger? Kai Opaka?
Poster's Log, Supplemental:
I suppose Project Proteus is one of those things Bashir and O'Brien could have dug out of Sloan's brain in "Extreme Measures" if they'd had more time.
Isn't Memory Alpha adorable?:
• Chin'toka was the site of two major Dominion War battles, seen in DS9 seasons six and seven.
• In 2372, a year before the Dominion War began, Section 31 originated the morphogenic virus described here.
"I'm as good as dead. Just like you."
- Changeling Will Riker
"He's not for me. We could bond over that, since he was never really for you either."
- Vadic, to Beverly, about Jack
Poster's Log:
Well, if this season has a theme, it's looking like "engineering an unnatural monstrosity is always gonna backfire on you": Vadic, Jack (I presume, when he is key to the baddies' defeat at the end), Lore, maybe even Golem-JL.
Jack officially has too many powers now, which suggests to me that he will not in fact helm a spinoff—unless the resolution of this season involves him losing some of them. OTOH, with great powers comes a great weakness: not being able to remember that you're holding a phaser when your ally is getting beaten up.
The Scene with the Iffiest Writing award this time goes to Jean-Luc and Beverly discussing their strained morality in such a fashion that we almost expect them to look into the camera. I mean, I believe that those two characters would be that direct about it, but they didn't need to discuss it so much. I guess it wouldn't be Stream Trek if they left it unsaid. But in all seriousness, I'm not sure yet how I feel about them appearing to be ready to execute a prisoner (a la the ENT-era mindset), despite the choice to include that acknowledgment. The simplest explanation is that it was an attempt at that DS9 style of moral ambiguity (about which one usually points to "In the Pale Moonlight", but let's not forget "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges").
Vadic's handset scene this time suggests the Big Bad is no Changeling/Founder; I really have no good guess about that reveal. But it would be weirdly awesome if it was one of the familiar faces from the penultimate episode of TNG season 1. …I mean, this being PIC season 3, it really HAS to be the return of SOMEbody we know, right? A lost Weyoun? Armus? A very bored Kevin Uxbridge? That cloud thing from that one Bajoran village? One of these guys? V-Ger? Kai Opaka?
Poster's Log, Supplemental:
I suppose Project Proteus is one of those things Bashir and O'Brien could have dug out of Sloan's brain in "Extreme Measures" if they'd had more time.
Listen: Bashir works at Section 31, with his husband Garak, and we will see them at some point in the next three episodes
I remain more confident than ever after seeing Tuvok
come on, please
please though
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:51 AM on March 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
I remain more confident than ever after seeing Tuvok
come on, please
please though
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:51 AM on March 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don’t think she’d ever do it, she was always pretty standup morally, but it would be kind of hilarious if the secret doctor for Section 31 bioweapons research was Dr. Pulaski.
posted by sixswitch at 6:03 AM on March 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by sixswitch at 6:03 AM on March 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I hope he ends up getting depowered; it would be very unfortunate for Beverly to have another son move to a different dimension.
As you note, it won't happen because the show is named Picard, but did start to think that maybe Section 31 should be hanging onto Beverly, given the apparent god-like abilities of both her children.
Vadic was the most fun this episode.
When they started tracking the changeling, all I could think was "if you can track them, you can get a transporter lock...how well do changelings do in the vacuum of space?"
The Scene with the Iffiest Writing award this time goes to Jean-Luc and Beverly discussing their strained morality in such a fashion that we almost expect them to look into the camera.
It was so stilted I thought it was a performance meant for Vadic to overhear.
posted by nubs at 6:04 AM on March 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
As you note, it won't happen because the show is named Picard, but did start to think that maybe Section 31 should be hanging onto Beverly, given the apparent god-like abilities of both her children.
Vadic was the most fun this episode.
When they started tracking the changeling, all I could think was "if you can track them, you can get a transporter lock...how well do changelings do in the vacuum of space?"
The Scene with the Iffiest Writing award this time goes to Jean-Luc and Beverly discussing their strained morality in such a fashion that we almost expect them to look into the camera.
It was so stilted I thought it was a performance meant for Vadic to overhear.
posted by nubs at 6:04 AM on March 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Listen: Bashir works at Section 31, with his husband Garak, and we will see them at some point in the next three episodes
Seriously, where are my Danger Dads?
Honestly not sure where this is going, unless there's a Secret Section 31 Badmiral that they can just hand over to the changelings, or they decide to have Salome Jens (who played the female changeling in DS9) come in to invite this Bad Batch back to the Great Link. Or maybe the big secret is that Jack is part changeling, and his telepathy is Great Link-derived (there was a DS9 episode that kind of hinted at something similar) and he'll end up pulling a I Must Return to My People.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:13 AM on March 30, 2023
Seriously, where are my Danger Dads?
Honestly not sure where this is going, unless there's a Secret Section 31 Badmiral that they can just hand over to the changelings, or they decide to have Salome Jens (who played the female changeling in DS9) come in to invite this Bad Batch back to the Great Link. Or maybe the big secret is that Jack is part changeling, and his telepathy is Great Link-derived (there was a DS9 episode that kind of hinted at something similar) and he'll end up pulling a I Must Return to My People.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:13 AM on March 30, 2023
...how well do changelings do in the vacuum of space?
Baseline Changelings, given the requisite experience (or linking, I'd imagine), can do the cosmozoan thing pretty well — it was Laas' favored mode of interstellar travel.
Vadicalized Changelings seem more attuned to the physiological and environmental norms of the beings they were forced to imitate. Given how viscerally goopy they are, I'd expect that adapting to vacuum, solar winds, and other interstellar hazards would be colossally painful to maintain for even a short period of time (if it's even possible at all), which is saying something given the chronic pain that Vadic's line experiences.
I'm guessing we won't get much detail about how the Federation / Section 31 got their hands on Vadic and her family, let alone how they kept them in a quiescent (but still metamorphic) state for such a long time. If Vadic hadn't mentioned the Great Link, I'd have thought they were all juveniles — members of the Hundred, like Odo, who somehow developed sentience potentially centuries after Laas. But no, it looks like they were, like... super-captured, and all without Odo's help.
posted by lumensimus at 9:19 AM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Baseline Changelings, given the requisite experience (or linking, I'd imagine), can do the cosmozoan thing pretty well — it was Laas' favored mode of interstellar travel.
Vadicalized Changelings seem more attuned to the physiological and environmental norms of the beings they were forced to imitate. Given how viscerally goopy they are, I'd expect that adapting to vacuum, solar winds, and other interstellar hazards would be colossally painful to maintain for even a short period of time (if it's even possible at all), which is saying something given the chronic pain that Vadic's line experiences.
I'm guessing we won't get much detail about how the Federation / Section 31 got their hands on Vadic and her family, let alone how they kept them in a quiescent (but still metamorphic) state for such a long time. If Vadic hadn't mentioned the Great Link, I'd have thought they were all juveniles — members of the Hundred, like Odo, who somehow developed sentience potentially centuries after Laas. But no, it looks like they were, like... super-captured, and all without Odo's help.
posted by lumensimus at 9:19 AM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Honestly not sure where this is going, unless there's a Secret Section 31 Badmiral that they can just hand over to the changelings
Expecting something like that, and then some cathartic speechifying about how this doesn't represent the values of the Federation and wanting to work together to address the problem...until the next time where it needs to be revealed that someone in the Federation has gone off and done something highly unethical and not in keeping with standards.
I may be wrong, but it feels like a very consistently repeated theme in Trek right now is some part of the Federation losing their way or being corrupt and doing horrible things. Given that I've always thought that SF in general is about current day anxieties, I guess its saying something about how we perceive and feel about our institutions right now, with the added sop of the idea that there's someone like Picard out there to get things back to the right trajectory.
posted by nubs at 9:30 AM on March 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Expecting something like that, and then some cathartic speechifying about how this doesn't represent the values of the Federation and wanting to work together to address the problem...until the next time where it needs to be revealed that someone in the Federation has gone off and done something highly unethical and not in keeping with standards.
I may be wrong, but it feels like a very consistently repeated theme in Trek right now is some part of the Federation losing their way or being corrupt and doing horrible things. Given that I've always thought that SF in general is about current day anxieties, I guess its saying something about how we perceive and feel about our institutions right now, with the added sop of the idea that there's someone like Picard out there to get things back to the right trajectory.
posted by nubs at 9:30 AM on March 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
not being able to remember that you're holding a phaser when your ally is getting beaten up
Wasn't there a forcefield between them, thanks to Lore?
posted by hanov3r at 12:40 PM on March 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Wasn't there a forcefield between them, thanks to Lore?
posted by hanov3r at 12:40 PM on March 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
I complain about Picard a lot but I’m always here for a homage to Sneakers’ trace scene, complete with futuristic polygraph!
posted by adrianhon at 12:55 PM on March 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 12:55 PM on March 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Paramount+ announced Star Trek: Starfleet Academy today! A series that it seems like will be set in Discovery's future timeline. And Lower Decks's Tawny Newsome is in the writers room!"
mastodon post has a screencap of the press release(?) as well as the transcribed full text in replies.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 2:08 PM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
mastodon post has a screencap of the press release(?) as well as the transcribed full text in replies.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 2:08 PM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Geordi pleads with DataLore/Beverly and JL debate ethics/Jack and Sidney working together - all could have been great scenes, all ruined by the choice to intercut them to somehow ramp up the tension but making it all Melodramatic As Hell. It's like Matalas & Co know what Trek should be, but think TV needs to be all moody montages and not let the actors do the work. (Honestly, stop having people say "Lore" when Brent Spiner's acting already has keyed us in on that fact. He's not subtle about it!)
Post-Dominion War story as a concept is fine, but yet again it feels like a DS9 plot forced onto TNG characters. And they have had to mess with the actual story about the virus because, for some reason, Section 31 is part of Starfleet now. (The reason Section 31 worked so well for DS9 is because they got to do shady things without implicating Starfleet or the Federation. Honestly, if Starfleet was responsible for the virus, they'd deserve everything they got. Retconning it to up the ante here is just lazy as fuck.)
I didn't think there was as much great character work this week as there has been the last two weeks. It's all plot and more references. And yeah, Amanda Plummer is doing a great job.
Everything hinges on the Jack reveal and I'm worried that the whole season will come crashing down next week. If he's a changeling or part-Borg. If Beverly was secretly impregnated. If they animate the corpse of Jean-Luc Picard. It's all dicey.
Three episodes to go and the best part is, apart from retconning a DS9 arc, they haven't yet sullied any of those characters. Please leave them be.
Also, after all these references to Janeway, she better fucking show up. I don't even love Voyager that much, but teasing her all year without a pay off would suck.
posted by crossoverman at 3:01 PM on March 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Post-Dominion War story as a concept is fine, but yet again it feels like a DS9 plot forced onto TNG characters. And they have had to mess with the actual story about the virus because, for some reason, Section 31 is part of Starfleet now. (The reason Section 31 worked so well for DS9 is because they got to do shady things without implicating Starfleet or the Federation. Honestly, if Starfleet was responsible for the virus, they'd deserve everything they got. Retconning it to up the ante here is just lazy as fuck.)
I didn't think there was as much great character work this week as there has been the last two weeks. It's all plot and more references. And yeah, Amanda Plummer is doing a great job.
Everything hinges on the Jack reveal and I'm worried that the whole season will come crashing down next week. If he's a changeling or part-Borg. If Beverly was secretly impregnated. If they animate the corpse of Jean-Luc Picard. It's all dicey.
Three episodes to go and the best part is, apart from retconning a DS9 arc, they haven't yet sullied any of those characters. Please leave them be.
Also, after all these references to Janeway, she better fucking show up. I don't even love Voyager that much, but teasing her all year without a pay off would suck.
posted by crossoverman at 3:01 PM on March 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Everything hinges on the Jack reveal and I'm worried that the whole season will come crashing down next week
I'm left with the fact that there are three episodes left, and we have yet to understand:
-who or what Jack is;
-who Vadic is working for;
-what the Changelings intend to do;
-why Jean-Luc's corpse is needed;
-what Jean-Luc had if it wasn't Irumodic Syndrome;
-is Lore working with the Changelings, or just being an agent of chaos (but Vadic seemed sure something was going to happen to make her takeover happen);
-who or what faction in the Federation is compromised;
and probably a bunch of other questions that I'm forgetting. In short, I don't think there's enough runway left to answer all of these well, and give us an emotionally satisfying conclusion to the characters we are about to say goodbye to. So either there's a spinoff coming that involves some of these characters (Jack is a super-sekret brainwashed assassin/Shaw is a snarky by-the-book starship captain; together they solve Section 31 crimes), or they're keeping plates spinning this long because there aren't good answers to a lot of the questions.
posted by nubs at 3:16 PM on March 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm left with the fact that there are three episodes left, and we have yet to understand:
-who or what Jack is;
-who Vadic is working for;
-what the Changelings intend to do;
-why Jean-Luc's corpse is needed;
-what Jean-Luc had if it wasn't Irumodic Syndrome;
-is Lore working with the Changelings, or just being an agent of chaos (but Vadic seemed sure something was going to happen to make her takeover happen);
-who or what faction in the Federation is compromised;
and probably a bunch of other questions that I'm forgetting. In short, I don't think there's enough runway left to answer all of these well, and give us an emotionally satisfying conclusion to the characters we are about to say goodbye to. So either there's a spinoff coming that involves some of these characters (Jack is a super-sekret brainwashed assassin/Shaw is a snarky by-the-book starship captain; together they solve Section 31 crimes), or they're keeping plates spinning this long because there aren't good answers to a lot of the questions.
posted by nubs at 3:16 PM on March 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
TVTropes has this to say, and I think it’s very well said.
The Titan hiding out in the Chin'Toka System. Chin'toka was one of the crucial battlegrounds of the Dominion War. Capturing it gave the Federation their sole foothold in Dominion territory, but holding it was a tenuous balancing act. Eventually, the Dominion struck back and retook control — much like how the Titan's plan to entrap Vadic initially succeeds, only to blow up in their faces. Likewise, the wreckage of the Second Battle is still there decades later — mirroring how the reverberations of the War are still present and how the survivors of the War are still fighting through its figurative and literal wreckage decades later.
The wreckage of the first USS Defiant on DS9 is in that debris somewhere.
posted by Servo5678 at 3:41 PM on March 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Titan hiding out in the Chin'Toka System. Chin'toka was one of the crucial battlegrounds of the Dominion War. Capturing it gave the Federation their sole foothold in Dominion territory, but holding it was a tenuous balancing act. Eventually, the Dominion struck back and retook control — much like how the Titan's plan to entrap Vadic initially succeeds, only to blow up in their faces. Likewise, the wreckage of the Second Battle is still there decades later — mirroring how the reverberations of the War are still present and how the survivors of the War are still fighting through its figurative and literal wreckage decades later.
The wreckage of the first USS Defiant on DS9 is in that debris somewhere.
posted by Servo5678 at 3:41 PM on March 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Paramount+ announced Star Trek: Starfleet Academy today! A series that it seems like will be set in Discovery's future timeline. And Lower Decks's Tawny Newsome is in the writers room!"
mastodon post has a screencap of the press release(?) as well as the transcribed full text in replies
I feel like this news was released two days early.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:37 PM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
mastodon post has a screencap of the press release(?) as well as the transcribed full text in replies
I feel like this news was released two days early.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:37 PM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Stellar performance by Plummer.
Too bad it wasn't supported by seeing a team of systematic butchers instead of one lone bad apple, although it's implied that there was tacit allowance for the behaviour.
Amazing excuse for Spiner to do Lore again. In the college games of 'which STTNG character are you' I'd invariably get identified as Lore.
posted by porpoise at 6:16 PM on March 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Too bad it wasn't supported by seeing a team of systematic butchers instead of one lone bad apple, although it's implied that there was tacit allowance for the behaviour.
Amazing excuse for Spiner to do Lore again. In the college games of 'which STTNG character are you' I'd invariably get identified as Lore.
posted by porpoise at 6:16 PM on March 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ugh, god, this mostly made me want to claw my eyes out. I could forgive a lot of it except for Spiner's annoying overacting and the massive idiot-ball carrying of Geordi hooking up semi-evil being DataLoreWhoever to the network and then going "What in the hell is going on?" and being baffled by bad things happening right next to the semi-evil being who's hooked up to the network. That is just so cretinous I can't bear it.
Reminds me of Skyfall when Q hooks up the laptop of World's Baddest Bad Guy with an ethernet cable right into their freaking network and then is stunned when shit goes down. When I saw that in the theatre, I accidentally blurted out "What?!" loudly when he hooked the cables up, and a bunch of people laughed because I'm sure they were thinking the same thing. There is a paucity of sense among these people.
They better not fucking kill off Shaw, I'll tell you what, though.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:40 PM on March 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Reminds me of Skyfall when Q hooks up the laptop of World's Baddest Bad Guy with an ethernet cable right into their freaking network and then is stunned when shit goes down. When I saw that in the theatre, I accidentally blurted out "What?!" loudly when he hooked the cables up, and a bunch of people laughed because I'm sure they were thinking the same thing. There is a paucity of sense among these people.
They better not fucking kill off Shaw, I'll tell you what, though.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:40 PM on March 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Ugh if they tease us one more week about Jack's Secret Powers I'm going to lose it. Particularly didn't like this week where his superpower became "I'm a clumsy Pick Up Artist". At least Ms. Jeordi didn't fall for it.
This whole episode really failed for me. Far too much Big Drama, not enough interesting writing. The moment it broke for me is Jean-Luc and Beverly psyching themselves up, agreeing they were going to murder Vadic to protect their son even though it was against all their ethics. And then they have the perfect excuse to actually kill her; the force fields are raised! She's a threat! Kill her! And they do go pew pew pew but somehow their guns aren't powerful enough (despite two scenes of the foley work going "Bzzzzweee!" indicating they were set to max power / kill). Just really dumb.
Also dumb: everything with Brent Spiner. Having him hamming it up as Data/Lore with the glitches and transitions. I have a feeling they thought this would be some master class in acting. No, no.
Captain Asshole Shaw was definitely underutilized this episode. Fortunately Plummer was there making it work as Vadic at least. She does have big Weyoun energy and has anyone heard from Jeffrey Combs and whether he's going to get a little turn on this show, like Tuvok?
The new characters remain the best part of this show. MIA: Raffi. Except not actually missed.
A point of clarification; what species are the mooks with Vadic? If this were DS9 they'd be Breen, or maybe Jem'Hadar. Instead they're just.. really hard to kill? Are they Vadicalized Changelings?
(Obligatory: I'm caremad here. This episode was a disappointment for me but there's enough exciting about this season I really want to see them make it successful in the end.)
posted by Nelson at 7:39 PM on March 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
This whole episode really failed for me. Far too much Big Drama, not enough interesting writing. The moment it broke for me is Jean-Luc and Beverly psyching themselves up, agreeing they were going to murder Vadic to protect their son even though it was against all their ethics. And then they have the perfect excuse to actually kill her; the force fields are raised! She's a threat! Kill her! And they do go pew pew pew but somehow their guns aren't powerful enough (despite two scenes of the foley work going "Bzzzzweee!" indicating they were set to max power / kill). Just really dumb.
Also dumb: everything with Brent Spiner. Having him hamming it up as Data/Lore with the glitches and transitions. I have a feeling they thought this would be some master class in acting. No, no.
Captain Asshole Shaw was definitely underutilized this episode. Fortunately Plummer was there making it work as Vadic at least. She does have big Weyoun energy and has anyone heard from Jeffrey Combs and whether he's going to get a little turn on this show, like Tuvok?
The new characters remain the best part of this show. MIA: Raffi. Except not actually missed.
A point of clarification; what species are the mooks with Vadic? If this were DS9 they'd be Breen, or maybe Jem'Hadar. Instead they're just.. really hard to kill? Are they Vadicalized Changelings?
(Obligatory: I'm caremad here. This episode was a disappointment for me but there's enough exciting about this season I really want to see them make it successful in the end.)
posted by Nelson at 7:39 PM on March 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
(They definitely will not do this because of what the name of the show is, but it would be very funny if the McGuffin inside Jack was actually inherited through the maternal line.)
OMG. Wait, I've figured it out, the mystery villain is going to be Ronin, the sex candle ghost from Sub Rosa, and he is why Wesley and Jack are both special in their own ways.
posted by Pryde at 8:18 PM on March 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
OMG. Wait, I've figured it out, the mystery villain is going to be Ronin, the sex candle ghost from Sub Rosa, and he is why Wesley and Jack are both special in their own ways.
posted by Pryde at 8:18 PM on March 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
I enjoyed this episode, mostly. Vadic was fantastic and her story was heartbreaking. I was really really annoyed by JL and Beverly deciding Vadic needed to die and then just uselessly shooting at her as she gooed away. Come on.
They'd better have a really good reason for Jack's powers, which keep growing. Did he take over Sidney's body or just telepathically tell her what to do? I totally get her original impulse to shoot him--that was just weird.
You'd think Picard would have warned Geordi not to hook DataLore into the ship's systems--the Borg Queen took over La Sirena the exact same way last season. Maybe we should learn from our past mistakes?
posted by ceejaytee at 4:23 AM on March 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
They'd better have a really good reason for Jack's powers, which keep growing. Did he take over Sidney's body or just telepathically tell her what to do? I totally get her original impulse to shoot him--that was just weird.
You'd think Picard would have warned Geordi not to hook DataLore into the ship's systems--the Borg Queen took over La Sirena the exact same way last season. Maybe we should learn from our past mistakes?
posted by ceejaytee at 4:23 AM on March 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
This episode suffered mightily from the absence of Riker and Worf and the underuse of Shaw. And despite the fight with the bad guys this was a very talky episode. Which is too bad given the inability of the writers to write good dialogue. Those scenes with Picard and Beverly weren't even a shadow of the sort of moral dilemma scenes that TNG is famous for.
Vadic's monologue was great, but her reveal that Section 31 is responsible for creating the evolved Changelings is just one more reason why there should never be a Section 31 in Starfleet and why a Section 31 show would be a terrible choice for Star Trek. I am not all that excited about a Starfleet Academy show, but I was relieved to hear that the next show won't be Section 31.
posted by briank at 5:37 AM on March 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Vadic's monologue was great, but her reveal that Section 31 is responsible for creating the evolved Changelings is just one more reason why there should never be a Section 31 in Starfleet and why a Section 31 show would be a terrible choice for Star Trek. I am not all that excited about a Starfleet Academy show, but I was relieved to hear that the next show won't be Section 31.
posted by briank at 5:37 AM on March 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I thought this episode was pretty terrible, this season has been a delightful mess so far but this one was just a mess. The Vadic monologues were actually a low point for me, way too long and too many. (Seriously, her main monologue in the middle of the episode seemed like the better part of 10 minutes and could've been like 90 seconds. Amanda Plummer's back must seriously be hurting from having to carry so much.)
posted by LooseFilter at 7:21 AM on March 31, 2023
posted by LooseFilter at 7:21 AM on March 31, 2023
I'm kind of surprised at the comments in this thread, probably because in between Picard episodes I'm watching Discovery for the first time. I'm halfway through season 4, and the FanFare comments (so glad for that thread!) have basically turned strongly toward "too much feelings!" Yes, this ep of Picard had some feels stuff, but compared to an episode of Discovery, it's a Marvel superhero movie.
Yeah, I expected a little more in substance and in length from the Picard/Crusher scene, but... they're in the middle of a crisis! If it had been, say, Burnham and Book, they would have been in tearful whispers as Vadic & Co. blew up the fleet on Frontier Day. I exaggerate, yes, but you get my drift.
posted by martin q blank at 7:35 AM on March 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I expected a little more in substance and in length from the Picard/Crusher scene, but... they're in the middle of a crisis! If it had been, say, Burnham and Book, they would have been in tearful whispers as Vadic & Co. blew up the fleet on Frontier Day. I exaggerate, yes, but you get my drift.
posted by martin q blank at 7:35 AM on March 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
mikelieman's comment from last week's thread was prescient
posted by nathan_teske at 8:24 AM on March 31, 2023
posted by nathan_teske at 8:24 AM on March 31, 2023
MeFi: my emotional support asshole.
posted by fairmettle at 4:17 PM on March 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 4:17 PM on March 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Vadic was fantastic and her story was heartbreaking.
I refuse to feel sorry for the Changlings. They were themselves genocidal xenophobic space Nazis that started a war and were perfectly happy to use bio weapons themselves (they infected that one whole planet with an engineered virus designed to cause agony before the victims died as a example to their other colonised populations), kept the Jem Haddar and the Vorta as slaves, and committed any number of other war crimes. They have no standing to complain about anything that was done to them by Section 31 in self defence, even though it was ethically dubious.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:33 PM on March 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
I refuse to feel sorry for the Changlings. They were themselves genocidal xenophobic space Nazis that started a war and were perfectly happy to use bio weapons themselves (they infected that one whole planet with an engineered virus designed to cause agony before the victims died as a example to their other colonised populations), kept the Jem Haddar and the Vorta as slaves, and committed any number of other war crimes. They have no standing to complain about anything that was done to them by Section 31 in self defence, even though it was ethically dubious.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:33 PM on March 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
What happens when you fire a phaser at someone seemed to be totally random in this episode. Total disintegration, death, big hole, no effect. All seem possible, even in the same firefight. Do they role 1d4?
posted by biffa at 5:26 AM on April 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by biffa at 5:26 AM on April 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
Torturing pows is recognized as a war crime under the Geneva Convention.
The Federation in the Goldsmanverse is incredibly dystopic and appears to consist of:
A) A small cadre of landed gentry,
B) A large and powerful navy which cannot rein in the excesses of:
C1) A secret police force who's shady shenanigans have previously almost ended life as they know it (Disco season 2).
C2) Apparently entire planets which are openly run by criminal syndicates.
Who would seriously believe they're torturing the right bad guys? How's that worked out IRL? Where did Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi get his start? Where'd Wagner Group get its start?
TNG's Chain of Command elucidates the torturer's weaknesses clearly, and powerfully. Picard pities his torturer.
posted by StarkRoads at 9:15 AM on April 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Federation in the Goldsmanverse is incredibly dystopic and appears to consist of:
A) A small cadre of landed gentry,
B) A large and powerful navy which cannot rein in the excesses of:
C1) A secret police force who's shady shenanigans have previously almost ended life as they know it (Disco season 2).
C2) Apparently entire planets which are openly run by criminal syndicates.
Who would seriously believe they're torturing the right bad guys? How's that worked out IRL? Where did Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi get his start? Where'd Wagner Group get its start?
TNG's Chain of Command elucidates the torturer's weaknesses clearly, and powerfully. Picard pities his torturer.
posted by StarkRoads at 9:15 AM on April 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
It really didn't start with Goldsman. Rogue captains and admirals (or badmirals) were not an uncommon thing even during the peak utopian TNG era, which is really depressing to think back on, even if it did give us great speeches like Picard's in The Drumhead.
Some of the best episodes had Picard and crew making a moral stand against their problematic plans--whether it was protecting Data (and later his daughter) from disassembly, his crew from Admiral Satie's witch hunt, or the first Bajorans we ever met from the plot hatched up between Admiral Kennelly and the Cardassians. DS9 and Voyager leaned into that even more, and Enterprise's post 9/11 Xindi arc was perhaps the worst.
Current Trek may have doubled down on a lot of it, but that feels very much a reflection of the present (and in-world, perhaps very believable in the aftermath of the Dominion War and multiple Borg incursions, among other things that touched the heart of the Federation).
posted by Pryde at 2:17 PM on April 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Some of the best episodes had Picard and crew making a moral stand against their problematic plans--whether it was protecting Data (and later his daughter) from disassembly, his crew from Admiral Satie's witch hunt, or the first Bajorans we ever met from the plot hatched up between Admiral Kennelly and the Cardassians. DS9 and Voyager leaned into that even more, and Enterprise's post 9/11 Xindi arc was perhaps the worst.
Current Trek may have doubled down on a lot of it, but that feels very much a reflection of the present (and in-world, perhaps very believable in the aftermath of the Dominion War and multiple Borg incursions, among other things that touched the heart of the Federation).
posted by Pryde at 2:17 PM on April 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Current Trek may have doubled down on a lot of it, but that feels very much a reflection of the present (and in-world, perhaps very believable in the aftermath of the Dominion War and multiple Borg incursions, among other things that touched the heart of the Federation).
It's absolutely of its time. Goldsman et al are woefully unequipped to provide critique, which Old Trek managed, at its best. They introduce problematic elements and then they just exist, without much further commentary, or indeed with explicit endorsement. So we get like Doctor Crusher of all people blasting her opponents to smithereens as a first resort, except when they have literal plot armor.
posted by StarkRoads at 3:02 PM on April 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's absolutely of its time. Goldsman et al are woefully unequipped to provide critique, which Old Trek managed, at its best. They introduce problematic elements and then they just exist, without much further commentary, or indeed with explicit endorsement. So we get like Doctor Crusher of all people blasting her opponents to smithereens as a first resort, except when they have literal plot armor.
posted by StarkRoads at 3:02 PM on April 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I heard a line this week from post WW2, "We didn't know." This from Picard with regard to the experiments on the members of The Dominion.
This last episode also reminded me of The Wrath Of Khan, another experiment which escaped a lab, and caused much chaos.
I enjoyed this, and I wonder who did what, to Jack? His mother somehow missed his otherness, but there was discussion of the "Changelingitis"being transmitted between species. If the new dominion members have Picard's othered DNA, then they know what is currently up with Jack, besides him being a card to play against Picard.
They are playing with the fanbase heartstrings, but then, they always did. We want good to win out in the end, but what good is, is murky here.
When the space dust dies, the captain of the Titanic will have had the time of his life, with these amazing elder heroes.
posted by Oyéah at 5:53 PM on April 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
This last episode also reminded me of The Wrath Of Khan, another experiment which escaped a lab, and caused much chaos.
I enjoyed this, and I wonder who did what, to Jack? His mother somehow missed his otherness, but there was discussion of the "Changelingitis"being transmitted between species. If the new dominion members have Picard's othered DNA, then they know what is currently up with Jack, besides him being a card to play against Picard.
They are playing with the fanbase heartstrings, but then, they always did. We want good to win out in the end, but what good is, is murky here.
When the space dust dies, the captain of the Titanic will have had the time of his life, with these amazing elder heroes.
posted by Oyéah at 5:53 PM on April 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Torturing pows is recognized as a war crime under the Geneva Convention.
And? The changlings didn’t give a shit, they were running a POW fight club - Worf fought nearly to the death in it.
I’m not saying torturing the Changeling POWs isn’t ethically wrong - I am saying they have no valid basis to protest the injustice of it. They happily tortured POWs themselves. They happily used bioweapons and genocide themselves. They haven’t got a leg (or a column of goo) to stand on - their umbrage at their treatment is hollow. They’re just bog standard hypocrites, Vadic is not Jean Valjean here.
Even if Picard is going to white knight this one, it’s insane not to point this out.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:55 PM on April 2, 2023
And? The changlings didn’t give a shit, they were running a POW fight club - Worf fought nearly to the death in it.
I’m not saying torturing the Changeling POWs isn’t ethically wrong - I am saying they have no valid basis to protest the injustice of it. They happily tortured POWs themselves. They happily used bioweapons and genocide themselves. They haven’t got a leg (or a column of goo) to stand on - their umbrage at their treatment is hollow. They’re just bog standard hypocrites, Vadic is not Jean Valjean here.
Even if Picard is going to white knight this one, it’s insane not to point this out.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:55 PM on April 2, 2023
They're also tyrants. The goal Is not to emulate them.
posted by biffa at 2:10 AM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 2:10 AM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
They happily tortured POWs themselves.
This is a ridiculous argument. One side tortured, so the other side should be able to torture back?
Geez, give me the days of "Chain of Command" back when the ethics of torture on TNG were clear.
posted by crossoverman at 5:09 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is a ridiculous argument. One side tortured, so the other side should be able to torture back?
Geez, give me the days of "Chain of Command" back when the ethics of torture on TNG were clear.
posted by crossoverman at 5:09 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is a ridiculous argument. One side tortured, so the other side should be able to torture back?
No, I'm just saying that torturers shouldn't climb on a moralising high horse if someone gives them similar treatment.
Geez, give me the days of "Chain of Command" back when the ethics of torture on TNG were clear
The show via Picard is clearly taking the view that torture is bad and unacceptable, if doing so very clumsily.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:19 PM on April 3, 2023
No, I'm just saying that torturers shouldn't climb on a moralising high horse if someone gives them similar treatment.
Geez, give me the days of "Chain of Command" back when the ethics of torture on TNG were clear
The show via Picard is clearly taking the view that torture is bad and unacceptable, if doing so very clumsily.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:19 PM on April 3, 2023
Torturing pows is recognized as a war crime under the Geneva Convention.
And?
It is not 'ethically dubious' as was asserted above. It is recognized as a crime against humanity. There are downstream consequences of ignoring that IRL, just as there is in the story. The fiction is very clear that the Founders aren't universally evil beings, and the Vadic's path is informed by her experiences at the mercy of Section 31.
posted by StarkRoads at 11:18 AM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
And?
It is not 'ethically dubious' as was asserted above. It is recognized as a crime against humanity. There are downstream consequences of ignoring that IRL, just as there is in the story. The fiction is very clear that the Founders aren't universally evil beings, and the Vadic's path is informed by her experiences at the mercy of Section 31.
posted by StarkRoads at 11:18 AM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
During this episode's fight scene I yelled "You have a ranged weapon!!" many times. Do not engage in melee if you have the choice of using a ranged weapon from afar instead!
posted by brainwane at 11:49 AM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 11:49 AM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Is there even a war going on at this point? We don't even know who the "other side" fully constitutes besides the floating face and the shapeshifters. I imagine one could make a strong argument that these changelings are in fact "enemy combatants" or similar legal entity for the purposes of torture, and heck even genocide I guess. That's hardly a very Starfleet approach I suppose, but desperate times and all that.
posted by some loser at 12:14 PM on April 4, 2023
posted by some loser at 12:14 PM on April 4, 2023
I imagine one could make a strong argument that these changelings are in fact "enemy combatants" or similar legal entity for the purposes of torture, and heck even genocide I guess.
One is going to be very challenged to make this 'strong argument'. Perhaps there are some examples of your favorite, most-justified genocides?
posted by StarkRoads at 12:31 PM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
One is going to be very challenged to make this 'strong argument'. Perhaps there are some examples of your favorite, most-justified genocides?
posted by StarkRoads at 12:31 PM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Perhaps there are some examples of your favorite, most-justified genocides?
The Great Tribble Hunt, of which they still sing songs on the Klingon homeworld?
posted by hanov3r at 2:10 PM on April 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Great Tribble Hunt, of which they still sing songs on the Klingon homeworld?
posted by hanov3r at 2:10 PM on April 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
This last episode also reminded me of The Wrath Of Khan, another experiment which escaped a lab, and caused much chaos.
There was in fact a moment where I think they used a sound effect from TWOK. When Chekhov and Terrell have beamed down to what they think is Ceti Alpha VI, and are walking around in a sandstorm chasing a faint life sign, one of them is carrying a tricorder or something that emits a double beep, which slowly rises in pitch as they close in on what turns out to be Khan's living quarters.
I'm pretty sure that same rising double beep was used when the mutant Changelings were being tracked in the Titan. (I can't find clips of either scene online at the moment to confirm.)
It's the kind of deep cut reference I'd expect from Matalas -- cool fanservice, and yet not really a sufficient substitute for quality writing.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:16 AM on April 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
There was in fact a moment where I think they used a sound effect from TWOK. When Chekhov and Terrell have beamed down to what they think is Ceti Alpha VI, and are walking around in a sandstorm chasing a faint life sign, one of them is carrying a tricorder or something that emits a double beep, which slowly rises in pitch as they close in on what turns out to be Khan's living quarters.
I'm pretty sure that same rising double beep was used when the mutant Changelings were being tracked in the Titan. (I can't find clips of either scene online at the moment to confirm.)
It's the kind of deep cut reference I'd expect from Matalas -- cool fanservice, and yet not really a sufficient substitute for quality writing.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:16 AM on April 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
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Jack Crusher is starting to grow on me. I hope he ends up getting depowered; it would be very unfortunate for Beverly to have another son move to a different dimension.
(They definitely will not do this because of what the name of the show is, but it would be very funny if the McGuffin inside Jack was actually inherited through the maternal line.)
I really hope they don't kill off Shaw; he's my emotional support asshole. :C
I've read a bunch of complaints that we didn't see Riker and Troi, but their storyline deserves better than getting squeezed in as the D-plot of an already full episode. I assume that a future episode is going to devote a lot more time to them, and perhaps a Worf-and-Raffi rescue. In general I find that this show is at its strongest when it focuses the action in one place instead of cutting between spatially separated plots.
I've also seen complaints in all directions about what elements from other shows have and have not been included. Some people are mad that they're getting Voyager and DS9 references in what they think should be a pure TNG continuation (hard disagree; a modern show set in this era can only be a continuation of all three to make any sense, and while Voyager was not my favourite I really like the addition of Seven as a main character). And some DS9 fans are outraged that we got Faux Tuvok and a hundred Janeway name drops but not a single DS9 guest character (except Worf). I love DS9, but I'm also aware that many of the actors are Permanently Not Available for various reasons, and I don't know how you can get any more DS9 than a direct revival of the Dominion War arc.
My money's on Species 8472 as the identity of Mystery Meat Face.
posted by confluency at 4:59 AM on March 30, 2023 [3 favorites]