Doctor Who: The Church on Ruby Road
December 25, 2023 11:15 AM - Season 14 (Specials) - Subscribe
Long ago, on Christmas Eve, a baby was abandoned in the snow. Today, Ruby Sunday meets the Doctor, and perhaps, the secret of her birth.
Regarding the gloves: "mavity." Yeah, they're keeping it.
posted by SPrintF at 12:48 PM on December 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 12:48 PM on December 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Who is Anita Dobson supposed to be, d'ye think?
Well, the weird thing is she was the one complaining about the TARDIS earlier in the episode as if she'd never seen it before, so I think the real question should be: Is the Dobson at the end of the episode the same character who started the episode?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:00 PM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Well, the weird thing is she was the one complaining about the TARDIS earlier in the episode as if she'd never seen it before, so I think the real question should be: Is the Dobson at the end of the episode the same character who started the episode?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:00 PM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
That's a good question, and it might be worth noting that the entire timeline has changed twice since the beginning of the episode...
This episode feels very much of a piece with "The Star Beast," and I am 100% here for a Doctor Who that's funny, over the top, unangsty, and kid friendly. I have a feeling some viewers will see something like the goblin musical number and complain this is exactly what they were afraid of when Disney came aboard, but I loved it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:25 PM on December 25, 2023
This episode feels very much of a piece with "The Star Beast," and I am 100% here for a Doctor Who that's funny, over the top, unangsty, and kid friendly. I have a feeling some viewers will see something like the goblin musical number and complain this is exactly what they were afraid of when Disney came aboard, but I loved it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:25 PM on December 25, 2023
The rumour is that Mrs Flood, is called Flood which is a synonym for Rain and so she might return later as the RANI - which is precisely the kind of word games Easter egg that T. Davies Loves but ::shrug:: might just be a fan theory that is over reaching.
Also she did appear to be different before and after the 'Crack In Time' that occured..
I really Hope that Mavity leads to a big payoff somehow.
posted by Faintdreams at 2:27 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also she did appear to be different before and after the 'Crack In Time' that occured..
I really Hope that Mavity leads to a big payoff somehow.
posted by Faintdreams at 2:27 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have a feeling some viewers will see something like the goblin musical number and complain this is exactly what they were afraid of when Disney came aboard
Anyone who complains about that wasn't paying attention during RTD's first run on Doctor Who. This feels entirely in line with what he would do given a budget and less network interference. Did we all forget about the farting aliens and Weakest Link game show robots? Unless you blame Disney for not giving him enough direction.
While I prefer The Doctor to be a grumpy old man (which I got with Peter Capaldi, so no complaints), Ncuti's approach is fun and Ruby Sunday (and her family) are great. Really looking forward to more of this in the spring.
posted by Gary at 4:41 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anyone who complains about that wasn't paying attention during RTD's first run on Doctor Who. This feels entirely in line with what he would do given a budget and less network interference. Did we all forget about the farting aliens and Weakest Link game show robots? Unless you blame Disney for not giving him enough direction.
While I prefer The Doctor to be a grumpy old man (which I got with Peter Capaldi, so no complaints), Ncuti's approach is fun and Ruby Sunday (and her family) are great. Really looking forward to more of this in the spring.
posted by Gary at 4:41 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have dipped in and out with the modern Who era but Ncuti Gatwa's gorgeous charisma has made me all in on this.
It's a good entry point. He's a wonderful Doctor. Millie Gibson's Ruby is a lot of fun and a good companion.
This was playful and silly in all the best ways. I imagine there will be some darker things to come but it was a good ride. I think I'm all in now.
I also thought Anita Dobson was supposed to be some reference I didn't get, but apparently not? At least not so far. I hope that pays off later just because it really emphasized it.
I guess we have to wait until May for the rest of the season.
posted by edencosmic at 4:48 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a good entry point. He's a wonderful Doctor. Millie Gibson's Ruby is a lot of fun and a good companion.
This was playful and silly in all the best ways. I imagine there will be some darker things to come but it was a good ride. I think I'm all in now.
I also thought Anita Dobson was supposed to be some reference I didn't get, but apparently not? At least not so far. I hope that pays off later just because it really emphasized it.
I guess we have to wait until May for the rest of the season.
posted by edencosmic at 4:48 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
The rumour is that Mrs Flood, is called Flood which is a synonym for Rain and so she might return later as the RANI - which is precisely the kind of word games Easter egg that T. Davies Loves but ::shrug:: might just be a fan theory that is over reaching.
Also seeing theories re Pond to River to Flood, especially given the crack in the universe. But am not enough of a Whovian to comment further
posted by beaning at 4:54 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also seeing theories re Pond to River to Flood, especially given the crack in the universe. But am not enough of a Whovian to comment further
posted by beaning at 4:54 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'll confess, I'm hoping the presence of Lady May will finally lead to a cameo by her husband, the astrophysicist.
posted by cheshyre at 6:13 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cheshyre at 6:13 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am in the minority, it seems, but I thought the pacing was all over the place, Ruby wasn't given any room to be a person--just someone who reacts to a situation, and the *astoundingly blatant* racism, fat-hating/shaming and antisemitism on display has ruined all of the good feelings the previous three specials had created in me.
And I was really looking forward to Ncuti's take on The Doctor - I think he's a terrific actor.
SUPER disappointed.
(I'm not against musical numbers as a rule, but they have to actually be, you know, *good*)
posted by tzikeh at 6:22 PM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
And I was really looking forward to Ncuti's take on The Doctor - I think he's a terrific actor.
SUPER disappointed.
(I'm not against musical numbers as a rule, but they have to actually be, you know, *good*)
posted by tzikeh at 6:22 PM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm normally immune to this type of stuff but I enjoyed the heck out of all of the goblin cg effects.
Wasn't there another Disney (?) product that was grey and bulbous and had sharp teeth? Or is this too generic?
posted by porpoise at 1:03 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wasn't there another Disney (?) product that was grey and bulbous and had sharp teeth? Or is this too generic?
posted by porpoise at 1:03 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought the cast was good but the plot was pretty weak. I would put the Goblin King up there with some of the least convincing Who monsters - so I suppose that upheld tradition.
Song and dance number, WTF?
posted by Phanx at 3:03 AM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Song and dance number, WTF?
posted by Phanx at 3:03 AM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ten space dollars says that Ruby is her own mother. If not, then she's at least the mysterious woman who drops baby Ruby off at the church.
posted by Mogur at 3:34 AM on December 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 3:34 AM on December 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Huh. It never occurred to me that the change in the old lady neighbour’s demeanour was a clue. I just read it as being another example of how inconsistent this episode was emotionally.
Examples: Ruby is horrified the Goblin King is going to eat Lulubelle, but then a few seconds later she’s smiling at him and singing him a song. Or this: the Doctor is panicking that the kitchen is a death-trap, but then he stops to get all sentimental about all the children Ruby’s mother has fostered.
It felt messy.
I know it’s just a Christmas episode. But it’s a long way below the quality of introducing-a-new-Doctor episodes like “Rose” or “The Eleventh Hour”.
posted by davidwitteveen at 3:51 AM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Examples: Ruby is horrified the Goblin King is going to eat Lulubelle, but then a few seconds later she’s smiling at him and singing him a song. Or this: the Doctor is panicking that the kitchen is a death-trap, but then he stops to get all sentimental about all the children Ruby’s mother has fostered.
It felt messy.
I know it’s just a Christmas episode. But it’s a long way below the quality of introducing-a-new-Doctor episodes like “Rose” or “The Eleventh Hour”.
posted by davidwitteveen at 3:51 AM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, Mrs. Flood displays a disconcerting level of knowledge of the Doctor by the end of the episode. I'm guessing that future adventures will show her 19 years ago, helping the Doctor retrieve baby Ruby or some such.
posted by Mogur at 5:18 AM on December 26, 2023
posted by Mogur at 5:18 AM on December 26, 2023
the *astoundingly blatant* racism, fat-hating/shaming and antisemitism on display
OK, the fat-hating/shaming I get, but what was antisemitic ? The goblins ? So every story containing goblins is now antisemitic ?
And I also fail to see the astoundingly blatant racism.
Could just be me though.
posted by Pendragon at 5:26 AM on December 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
OK, the fat-hating/shaming I get, but what was antisemitic ? The goblins ? So every story containing goblins is now antisemitic ?
And I also fail to see the astoundingly blatant racism.
Could just be me though.
posted by Pendragon at 5:26 AM on December 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
“Messy” is a good way to describe it. But, that’s kind of a hallmark of a lot of NuWho.
The goblins and the goblin king were pretty much throw-away villains, used to help facilitate the backstory of RubyTuesdaySunday. As such, though, they were oddly dark for Who. I mean, eating a baby, and singing about it? And the whole musical number really felt dumb.
I guess Ruby is going to be a companion with some mysterious past/origin that even she isn’t aware of? Dropped-off as a nameless foundling. No DNA evidence for any mother, father, or family of any kind. Important enough to be disappeared from memory.
And, honestly, didn’t the shots of the back of Ruby’s supposed mother walking-away look an awful lot like what Whittaker’s Doctor would look like, what with the hood and the boots? That’s what I flashed on, anyway.
The hook of coincidences having the power to affect reality/time is interesting, and a seemingly important plot point to not be played-out in future episodes.
Ncuti’s Doctor is certainly energetic, continuing the tradition of manic Doctors running all over the place. Though, he did have moments where the big grin left his face and he suddenly seemed troubled/serious. We’ll see if that means anything, I guess. FWIW, I think (so far) this Doctor seems a little too overly happy and bubbly. Like he’s trying really hard to make you like him (or like he’s a one-year-old overjoyed at every new thing they encounter.)
I like that this Doctor actually changes his clothes. That was always a thing that bugged me about the Doctors...They never change clothes (unless it’s a costume intended for a specific scene.)
I hadn’t thought about Mrs. Flood being another version of Ruby, though I did pick-up on how different she was post goblin defeat, like she was just sitting there waiting for Ruby to come along like she knew what was about to happen. And that breaking-the-fourth-wall “You’ve never seen a TARDIS?” pretty well seals the deal that she’s an important character. “Flood” definitely seems like a clue, though my mind went to flood=river. And, come to think about it, “Ruby Sunday” too obviously evokes the song “Ruby Tuesday.” But, Nu Who has always been chockablock with dead-end speculation, so *shrugs*
Still love the new TARDIS interior. That jukebox really sticks out like a colorful “I’m super important!” beacon in all that stark white. For that matter, so does the Doctor. It would be kind of fun to see the TARDIS slowly become more colorful as they collect bits and artifacts from their travels. Kind of like moving into a new apartment.
Overall, this was messy but fun. Fluffy. With just enough hooks to make the wait until spring bearable.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:42 AM on December 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
The goblins and the goblin king were pretty much throw-away villains, used to help facilitate the backstory of Ruby
I guess Ruby is going to be a companion with some mysterious past/origin that even she isn’t aware of? Dropped-off as a nameless foundling. No DNA evidence for any mother, father, or family of any kind. Important enough to be disappeared from memory.
And, honestly, didn’t the shots of the back of Ruby’s supposed mother walking-away look an awful lot like what Whittaker’s Doctor would look like, what with the hood and the boots? That’s what I flashed on, anyway.
The hook of coincidences having the power to affect reality/time is interesting, and a seemingly important plot point to not be played-out in future episodes.
Ncuti’s Doctor is certainly energetic, continuing the tradition of manic Doctors running all over the place. Though, he did have moments where the big grin left his face and he suddenly seemed troubled/serious. We’ll see if that means anything, I guess. FWIW, I think (so far) this Doctor seems a little too overly happy and bubbly. Like he’s trying really hard to make you like him (or like he’s a one-year-old overjoyed at every new thing they encounter.)
I like that this Doctor actually changes his clothes. That was always a thing that bugged me about the Doctors...They never change clothes (unless it’s a costume intended for a specific scene.)
I hadn’t thought about Mrs. Flood being another version of Ruby, though I did pick-up on how different she was post goblin defeat, like she was just sitting there waiting for Ruby to come along like she knew what was about to happen. And that breaking-the-fourth-wall “You’ve never seen a TARDIS?” pretty well seals the deal that she’s an important character. “Flood” definitely seems like a clue, though my mind went to flood=river. And, come to think about it, “Ruby Sunday” too obviously evokes the song “Ruby Tuesday.” But, Nu Who has always been chockablock with dead-end speculation, so *shrugs*
Still love the new TARDIS interior. That jukebox really sticks out like a colorful “I’m super important!” beacon in all that stark white. For that matter, so does the Doctor. It would be kind of fun to see the TARDIS slowly become more colorful as they collect bits and artifacts from their travels. Kind of like moving into a new apartment.
Overall, this was messy but fun. Fluffy. With just enough hooks to make the wait until spring bearable.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:42 AM on December 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
One thing I hope for the DisneyWho era is that they won't lean too heavily on CGI creatures. This ep sadly didn't support that hope.
Maybe I'm a stick-in-the-mud, but I really think that Who-creatures should be done with physical and practical effects. Even if they look super silly, it's more in keeping with the spirit of the show. Anytime a creature is CGI, my brain immediately goes "meh", and loses investment.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:52 AM on December 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm a stick-in-the-mud, but I really think that Who-creatures should be done with physical and practical effects. Even if they look super silly, it's more in keeping with the spirit of the show. Anytime a creature is CGI, my brain immediately goes "meh", and loses investment.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:52 AM on December 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I didn't see the racism or anti-Semitism, either.
posted by maryellenreads at 7:36 AM on December 26, 2023
posted by maryellenreads at 7:36 AM on December 26, 2023
In almost every incarnation of NuWho there is someone who I wish would wind up being the companion instead of the companion we get. Jackie over Rose, for example.
For this particular version I would choose Cherry Sunday over Ruby without thinking twice.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 7:50 AM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
For this particular version I would choose Cherry Sunday over Ruby without thinking twice.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 7:50 AM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
One thing I hope for the DisneyWho era is that they won't lean too heavily on CGI creatures. This ep sadly didn't support that hope.
Maybe I'm a stick-in-the-mud, but I really think that Who-creatures should be done with physical and practical effects.
In fact they were! The king goblin was CGI, but the other goblins were practical effects and people in costumes combined with some CGI to make facial movements and have more background dancers.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:30 AM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Maybe I'm a stick-in-the-mud, but I really think that Who-creatures should be done with physical and practical effects.
In fact they were! The king goblin was CGI, but the other goblins were practical effects and people in costumes combined with some CGI to make facial movements and have more background dancers.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:30 AM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I qualify my mudstuckindness in that case! Although at the risk of doubling down, I do feel that the whole goblin thing "read" as CGI, even if practical effects were present.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:37 AM on December 26, 2023
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:37 AM on December 26, 2023
Maybe it doesn't have quite the same overtones in the UK, but alt-universe Carla being a black woman who takes on foster kids just for the money definitely feels uncomfortably close to "welfare queen" and other similar racist US tropes.
posted by bassooner at 9:15 AM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bassooner at 9:15 AM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I didn't see the racism or anti-Semitism, either.
I thought Ruby's mom going from "loving foster parent to 33 children" to "I only do this when I need ~800 quid of money" was problematic, especially to USA-based viewers as it evokes both the black women as endlessly loving nannies and then goes into the "black mothers only having children for welfare money" trope.
However I'm not certain the intent here was racism as much as to signify the effects of the time change, and this character attitude change would still be a problem to me regardless of her ethnicity. From my knowledge of the foster care system, the baby found at midnight Christmas Eve is most likely to go to the foster parent you know will take her in regardless of what else is going on--so this shouldn't have been the first child Ruby's mom fostered and therefore IMO while not having Ruby would make some changes in mom and grandma's lives, I don't believe it would have gone that far.
The goblin King as anti-Semitic and anti-fat is also discussed in the thread on The Giggle
posted by beaning at 9:24 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought Ruby's mom going from "loving foster parent to 33 children" to "I only do this when I need ~800 quid of money" was problematic, especially to USA-based viewers as it evokes both the black women as endlessly loving nannies and then goes into the "black mothers only having children for welfare money" trope.
However I'm not certain the intent here was racism as much as to signify the effects of the time change, and this character attitude change would still be a problem to me regardless of her ethnicity. From my knowledge of the foster care system, the baby found at midnight Christmas Eve is most likely to go to the foster parent you know will take her in regardless of what else is going on--so this shouldn't have been the first child Ruby's mom fostered and therefore IMO while not having Ruby would make some changes in mom and grandma's lives, I don't believe it would have gone that far.
The goblin King as anti-Semitic and anti-fat is also discussed in the thread on The Giggle
posted by beaning at 9:24 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I could see that subtext, if the actual text were not that the joy that Ruby brought to her life kept Carla from being emotionally overwhelmed by the bleak circumstances she found herself in. Beaten down by life, Carla, who had in the first timeline been vibrant and full of caring, was worn down and robotic. It was extremely plain that the deciding factor in who she would be was her love for that child (and it was further implied, with Carla's tears, that she somehow knew that the timeline had been changed, and that she had lost something important -- and maybe that was what had killed her spirit). In any case, I feel like anti-Black racism is a big stretch to impose upon this episode, all things considered. (Not that RTD has never faltered; please do not get me started on the treatment of Martha's mother, my blood pressure is rising even as I thumb these words into existence.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:27 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:27 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I admit the Goblin King could be read as fatphobic. I'm not sure a svelte Goblin King would have worked, though, dramatically. I guess he could have been super jacked on baby protein.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:38 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:38 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, RTD does seem to have seriously unexamined (or at least unchallenged by those who work under/with him) issues around Fat.
posted by Faintdreams at 11:41 AM on December 26, 2023
posted by Faintdreams at 11:41 AM on December 26, 2023
For all the talk and singing about baby eating, only the Goblin King gets to have a meal while everyone else…watches?
That’s a new take on goblins, you can sate their hunger with a YouTube video or something.
posted by dr_dank at 2:13 PM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
That’s a new take on goblins, you can sate their hunger with a YouTube video or something.
posted by dr_dank at 2:13 PM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ncuti Gatwa is a top tier beautiful man. Like Peter O'Toole in Lawrence of Arabia-level beautiful.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:39 PM on December 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:39 PM on December 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Although at the risk of doubling down, I do feel that the whole goblin thing "read" as CGI, even if practical effects were present.
Yeah, this is a super-weird take. You didn't like the practical effects, that's fine. It's Doctor Who with Disney money and the effects still look a bit naff. They "read as CGI" is just a strange way of putting it. Okay, you seem to automatically hate CGI regardless of whether it's actually CGI? Maybe you just hate unconvincing practical effects?
In the end, I don't care whether it's practical or CGI. To me, they read as kids in masks, which I think they were? In any case, I'm not sure what "real" Goblins are supposed to look like, so these are as good as any.
posted by crossoverman at 7:28 PM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, this is a super-weird take. You didn't like the practical effects, that's fine. It's Doctor Who with Disney money and the effects still look a bit naff. They "read as CGI" is just a strange way of putting it. Okay, you seem to automatically hate CGI regardless of whether it's actually CGI? Maybe you just hate unconvincing practical effects?
In the end, I don't care whether it's practical or CGI. To me, they read as kids in masks, which I think they were? In any case, I'm not sure what "real" Goblins are supposed to look like, so these are as good as any.
posted by crossoverman at 7:28 PM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m not sold on the new sonic, though. It reminds me of an mp3 player from the early 2000s.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:29 PM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 7:29 PM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m not sold on the new sonic, though.
Reminds me of a fidget-spinner, which I love.
posted by crossoverman at 7:32 PM on December 26, 2023
Reminds me of a fidget-spinner, which I love.
posted by crossoverman at 7:32 PM on December 26, 2023
I’m not seeing a really huge impact of the Disney money so far. However, RTD is on record as saying he would like multiple spin-offs following the adventures of former assistants and even previous doctors. If that happens I would expect it to be very much a Disney Whovian Universe kind of thing. (Which I wouldn’t mind at all.)
posted by Phanx at 12:55 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Phanx at 12:55 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
spin-offs following the adventures of former assistants
An Ace spin-off would be, well, ace.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:37 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
An Ace spin-off would be, well, ace.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:37 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
1) Ncuti Gatwa is absolutely lovely as the Doctor. He has effortless charm and charisma, that fella.
2) Shepherd and I agreed that it was a pretty weak Christmas episode all told but it did showcase the chemistry between the Doctor and his new Companion.
3) My biggest complaint is that with the return of RTD, I was hopeful Slade's "Merry Xmas Everybody" was back on the menu for the Christmas special (it's in every one of the Christmas ones from his first tenure; often in the background somewhere), but it wasn't and I am cross.
posted by Kitteh at 10:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
2) Shepherd and I agreed that it was a pretty weak Christmas episode all told but it did showcase the chemistry between the Doctor and his new Companion.
3) My biggest complaint is that with the return of RTD, I was hopeful Slade's "Merry Xmas Everybody" was back on the menu for the Christmas special (it's in every one of the Christmas ones from his first tenure; often in the background somewhere), but it wasn't and I am cross.
posted by Kitteh at 10:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
For those questioning the antisemitism and saying "so I guess all goblins are antisemitic now" --
1) This is Doctor Who. They can make up infinite races of strange creatures. Throw some random letters of the alphabet together and wham: new alien species. Instead, they (and by "they" I mean Russell T. Davies) specifically chose goblins, a pre-existing Earth villain that has some not-great connotations. That, alone, is vaguely uncomfortable, but just "they're goblins" doesn't make it for-sure antisemitic, I agree.
2) RTD chose not-great-connotations goblins to be the villain on Christmas.
3) The villainous act of the villainous Christmas goblins is to eat babies. Christian babies. On Christmas. With specific lyrics about their "blood" and "bones" in their song celebrating the fact that they're going to eat a Christian baby. I sincerely hope that Blood Libel is not an unfamiliar term to anyone on this site.
If your antisemitism alarm isn't fucking blaring at this point, I don't know what to tell you.
posted by tzikeh at 1:06 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
1) This is Doctor Who. They can make up infinite races of strange creatures. Throw some random letters of the alphabet together and wham: new alien species. Instead, they (and by "they" I mean Russell T. Davies) specifically chose goblins, a pre-existing Earth villain that has some not-great connotations. That, alone, is vaguely uncomfortable, but just "they're goblins" doesn't make it for-sure antisemitic, I agree.
2) RTD chose not-great-connotations goblins to be the villain on Christmas.
3) The villainous act of the villainous Christmas goblins is to eat babies. Christian babies. On Christmas. With specific lyrics about their "blood" and "bones" in their song celebrating the fact that they're going to eat a Christian baby. I sincerely hope that Blood Libel is not an unfamiliar term to anyone on this site.
If your antisemitism alarm isn't fucking blaring at this point, I don't know what to tell you.
posted by tzikeh at 1:06 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I remain unconvinced. Sometimes a goblin is just a goblin.
posted by SPrintF at 1:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 1:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Folks, there's some real and very serious antisemitism happening in the world right now. I'm Jewish and would just like to enjoy Doctor Who.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 2:50 PM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 2:50 PM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm Jewish and would just like to enjoy Doctor Who.
You write that as if I'm not Jewish and would not like to enjoy Doctor Who. I'd love to just enjoy it, but I can't, and discussion threads in FanFare aren't just for the people who liked the thing. But thanks for dismissing the antisemitism that comes from invoking Blood Libel in a children's show as not real and serious. Fuck knows viewers out there are swallowing it down uncritically in their millions -- and in here I guess. Glad to be made to feel like I'm not even welcome to express my fears here.
posted by tzikeh at 3:16 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
You write that as if I'm not Jewish and would not like to enjoy Doctor Who. I'd love to just enjoy it, but I can't, and discussion threads in FanFare aren't just for the people who liked the thing. But thanks for dismissing the antisemitism that comes from invoking Blood Libel in a children's show as not real and serious. Fuck knows viewers out there are swallowing it down uncritically in their millions -- and in here I guess. Glad to be made to feel like I'm not even welcome to express my fears here.
posted by tzikeh at 3:16 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I just...don't buy it. I don't think this show, which is trying very hard (perhaps, at times, so hard that it's actually cringey) to be socially conscious and progressive, is trying to send secret messages about the Jews eating babies. These ideas don't match up. Anti-Semitism is real, and wrong, and I understand your concerns, but I do not for one moment believe that this show is attempting to advance an anti-Semitic agenda. I further think that, if it were, we would definitely know, because one thing that Russell T. Davies seems constitutionally incapable of is being subtle.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:10 PM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:10 PM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
I found this article on the history of goblins which I think provides an interesting take. I think it's also worth noting that one of the more famous depictions of goblins, in the harry potter movies, were much closer to the anti semitic portrayal of Jewish people, with their connection to finance in particular.
I take the point with blood libel, and I think on balance they could easily have chosen something else here (perhaps even gremlins, as the goal was for something fantastical?) That said the tradition of Fae folk stealing children is extremely old, which I think this story is going for.
I think it's very clear that this story did not intend at all to have goblins read as Jewish, but I can see that reading existing anyway, and they could have been more thoughtful.
On a related note, while I agree that Davies has written fatphobic stuff in the past, I really don't see that with the goblin king, unless our assertion is that any monster cannot be fat?
I really enjoyed the episode for what it was trying to do, and the story it was trying to tell. I love how charismatic Ncuti's Doctor is, and do find it interesting that Davies has decided to lean quite heavily into the timeless child idea despite not being a fan of it.
I am definitely looking forwards to the next season
posted by Cannon Fodder at 4:22 PM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
I take the point with blood libel, and I think on balance they could easily have chosen something else here (perhaps even gremlins, as the goal was for something fantastical?) That said the tradition of Fae folk stealing children is extremely old, which I think this story is going for.
I think it's very clear that this story did not intend at all to have goblins read as Jewish, but I can see that reading existing anyway, and they could have been more thoughtful.
On a related note, while I agree that Davies has written fatphobic stuff in the past, I really don't see that with the goblin king, unless our assertion is that any monster cannot be fat?
I really enjoyed the episode for what it was trying to do, and the story it was trying to tell. I love how charismatic Ncuti's Doctor is, and do find it interesting that Davies has decided to lean quite heavily into the timeless child idea despite not being a fan of it.
I am definitely looking forwards to the next season
posted by Cannon Fodder at 4:22 PM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
I remain unconvinced.
I just...don't buy it.
You both know that antisemitism doesn't always come with conscious intent, right? Just like any other -ism, you're born in it and raised in it and can do and say (and write) antisemitic things without actively choosing to. I'm not saying RTD set out to make propaganda; I'm saying he wrote it because he's soaking in it.
In a time when Jewish people are increasingly at very real risk, it would be nice to have a place where we could point at something antisemitic and not get told we're imagining things.
posted by tzikeh at 5:46 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
I just...don't buy it.
You both know that antisemitism doesn't always come with conscious intent, right? Just like any other -ism, you're born in it and raised in it and can do and say (and write) antisemitic things without actively choosing to. I'm not saying RTD set out to make propaganda; I'm saying he wrote it because he's soaking in it.
In a time when Jewish people are increasingly at very real risk, it would be nice to have a place where we could point at something antisemitic and not get told we're imagining things.
posted by tzikeh at 5:46 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Perhaps you should reflect on your own need to feel "oppressed" by literal boogeymen.
WOW.
posted by tzikeh at 6:01 PM on December 27, 2023
WOW.
posted by tzikeh at 6:01 PM on December 27, 2023
I think it best to assume good intentions on the part of the Doctor Who writers, actors and staff.
It's like you didn't bother to read what I wrote directly above the comment you made.
No, you know what. Fuck that comment. I've been here 20 years, spent a long time here when things were much more wild and rude, and I've never had anyone say anything like that. Maybe you should reflect on your own need to use other people's real-life terror to feel smug.
posted by tzikeh at 6:03 PM on December 27, 2023
It's like you didn't bother to read what I wrote directly above the comment you made.
No, you know what. Fuck that comment. I've been here 20 years, spent a long time here when things were much more wild and rude, and I've never had anyone say anything like that. Maybe you should reflect on your own need to use other people's real-life terror to feel smug.
posted by tzikeh at 6:03 PM on December 27, 2023
Mod note: One deleted. SPrintF, participating as a good faith member in these threads includes not insulting other users who are expressing concerns over a subject and/or speaking from their personal experience. Do not do that again.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 6:43 PM on December 27, 2023
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 6:43 PM on December 27, 2023
I have been wondering which version of RTD as showrunner we'd get this season. The one responsible for things like Dalek or The Doctor Dances? Or the one who brought us Fear Her and Martha running all around the world to get everyone to clap in order to save Doctor Dobby? (Same guy, he contains multitudes.)
Seems a little uneven so far, kinda not feeling it.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:20 PM on December 28, 2023
Seems a little uneven so far, kinda not feeling it.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:20 PM on December 28, 2023
tzikeh, you make some great points. I totally understand what you mean by the antisemitism being there without RTD conciously deciding to be antisemitic. I think we can assume "good intentions" by the showrunner and come to a place where he's still messed up.
It does suck that RTD has examined some of his biases, corrected for them and still missed some others. I also think, the "goblins eat babies" trope and the history of "blood libel" accusations sitting so close to each other makes things a bit troubling.
posted by crossoverman at 8:02 PM on December 28, 2023
It does suck that RTD has examined some of his biases, corrected for them and still missed some others. I also think, the "goblins eat babies" trope and the history of "blood libel" accusations sitting so close to each other makes things a bit troubling.
posted by crossoverman at 8:02 PM on December 28, 2023
FWIW, I thought they used "goblins" to avoid calling the small clever eldritch creatures that appeared at Christmastime in a time-defying flying vehicle "elves", with the implication that their large magical king was Santa Claus. That's consistent with some of the prior Who takes on Christmas stories.
("Goblins" was a poor choice of alternative, though.)
posted by mersen at 6:39 PM on December 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
("Goblins" was a poor choice of alternative, though.)
posted by mersen at 6:39 PM on December 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just watched it tonight and felt like they were going for an 80s Labyrinth feel. If only Bowie were still with us we could've had a better Goblin King.
posted by rikschell at 9:29 PM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 9:29 PM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it is perfectly plausible that someone like RTD might think "Well, sure, I know that some people have used 'goblins' as an anti-semitic trope, but that's not what I mean; I'm just talking about little goblins, magical monstrous creatures -- you know, for kids!" For whatever that's worth *shrug*
I'm surprised no one mentioned that the Doctor was apparently fine with straight-up murdering the Goblin King; he usually gives the baddies at least the opportunity to back down and retreat, but I guess he figured if they went to the trouble of writing a song about eating babies, they wouldn't be likely to listen to his "This planet is under my protection, under Article 56 of the Shadow Proclamation I demand you leave now or face the Oncoming Storm"-type speech.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:30 PM on January 1 [2 favorites]
I'm surprised no one mentioned that the Doctor was apparently fine with straight-up murdering the Goblin King; he usually gives the baddies at least the opportunity to back down and retreat, but I guess he figured if they went to the trouble of writing a song about eating babies, they wouldn't be likely to listen to his "This planet is under my protection, under Article 56 of the Shadow Proclamation I demand you leave now or face the Oncoming Storm"-type speech.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:30 PM on January 1 [2 favorites]
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
Who is Anita Dobson supposed to be, d'ye think?
posted by Grangousier at 11:30 AM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]