Special Event: US VP Debate 2024: Battle of the Dads

October 1, 2024 1:40 PM

When is it and how to watch.
posted by phunniemee (399 comments total)

Hope this is okay to post, live-watching the last debate here was therapeutic for me.

Tried to make a title work with some variant on "Coach-Father vs Couch-Fucker" but couldn't make it happen.
posted by phunniemee at 1:41 PM on October 1 [25 favorites]

The thought of Hillbilly Vanilli being anybody's "dad" is LOL revolting.
posted by Pedantzilla at 2:19 PM on October 1 [21 favorites]

America’s Dad vs. America’s Creepy Uncle
posted by mbrubeck at 2:23 PM on October 1 [25 favorites]

Mentioned this in a past thread, as seen on reddit: Dad vs Father
posted by ishmael at 2:36 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

For those who don't want to click through: 9PM EST or 6PM PST.

Remember to have soft things in your hand to throw at your TV so no TVs are damaged during the watching of this debate.
posted by corb at 2:37 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

I'm actually a little nervous about this. I wouldn't wanna debate Kamala Harris, she of the prosecutorial onslaught, but neither would I want to debate JD Vance, high school debate club bully who never lets go of his point or fails to redirect to something that stings a bit.

But! Thankfully it really probably won't move the needle in any direction!
posted by kensington314 at 3:49 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

I hate that this is true, and that the NYT broke this just now:

Tim Walz Said He Was in Hong Kong in 1989 During Tiananmen. Not True.

(Gift article link)
posted by blue suede stockings at 3:57 PM on October 1

oh yeah, that does suck. I bet it also fails to move the needle though.
posted by kensington314 at 3:59 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

In kinda sorta related news, former President Jimmy Carter turned 100 years old today and was sent Happy Birthday and Best Wishes videos by every living ex-President save one. No need to guess who that was. What a POS. But we knew that already, did we not?
posted by y2karl at 4:59 PM on October 1 [28 favorites]

Tim had to have a few faults and I hadn’t seen any others. That really is too bad - I wonder if he misremembered once and then was embarrassed to correct himself. On the other hand, using the story as much as he has, probably not. No, it shouldn’t matter in the larger picture, but it is too bad.
posted by Glinn at 5:12 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

I mean it is somewhat understandable if he was there in August of '89 how the political climate would have been centered around that event - not sure how that ever got made into he was in Hong Kong on the 35th of May.
posted by MtRChem at 5:18 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

I can’t decide if I want to watch it. (Not because of the Tim Walz story, just in general.) It was worth it watching the last one to see Kamala kick tfg’s ass, but I don’t think I want to be overly stressed and enraged by the sound of Vance when I’ve got work tomorrow.
posted by Glinn at 5:18 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Anyone want to put up a small post to the blue with a link to say the conversation is over here tonight? I would, but I think someone who is more well known in the community would have a better chance of not having the post deleted. Following two rapid fire threads would be.... a lot.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:20 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Seconded! I was refreshing the front page and only found this post via google.
posted by porpoise at 5:25 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Remember to have soft things in your hand to throw at your TV so no TVs are damaged during the watching of this debate.

Alternative strategy.
posted by Reverend John at 5:26 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Done - posted to the blue.

Thank you for this thread, phunniemee!
posted by kristi at 5:29 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

What’s the format for tonight? Do we think Vance is going to have a chance to pull the Tiananmen thing out?
posted by corb at 5:31 PM on October 1

Keep your eye on Bill Mulvey. He promises to be a complete moron.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 5:37 PM on October 1

Wait, where are you guys watching? Just realized that may have been a CBS specific observation
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 5:38 PM on October 1

I heard “Jethro Dull” the other day and can’t stop thinking it.
posted by heyitsgogi at 5:38 PM on October 1 [21 favorites]

Is Walz going to have a chance to ask the eyeliner question?
posted by y2karl at 5:39 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

He is, and he’s not going to take it.
posted by box at 5:49 PM on October 1

Done - posted to the blue.

Thank you for this thread, phunniemee!

Yes. Thank you kristi and phunniemee!
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:51 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

I just figured out I can watch this on Fox via Tubi. Hurray.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 5:52 PM on October 1

It's my birthday! Let's go let's go let's gooooo!
posted by mochapickle at 5:53 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

It's my birthday! Let's go let's go let's gooooo!

Jimmy Carter, is that you?
posted by phunniemee at 5:54 PM on October 1 [31 favorites]

Happy birthday!
posted by Mr. Yuck at 5:55 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

I just figured out I can watch this on Fox via Tubi. Hurray.

Yeah, and it looks like basically any major news outlet has a youtube channel going for it. makes it easy for me since i haven't had OTA TV or cable for.... 13 years?

It's appreciated.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:55 PM on October 1

J.D. Vance is in a green room, listening to ‘Lose Yourself’ on repeat.
posted by box at 5:57 PM on October 1 [10 favorites]

I'm watching the CBS feed on Roku and they're doing the "let's get half a dozen pundits to blather on to fill airtime" thing. Pundits are the worst. Just show the fucking thing without your dumb commentary.
posted by downtohisturtles at 5:58 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Watching from CNN, here.
posted by corb at 5:59 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

C-Span's website is another good source for these events and it doesn't care if you're not based in the U.S.
posted by sardonyx at 5:59 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Hope I can get through this without shouting in rage at the xenophobia from Vance.
posted by Schmucko at 6:00 PM on October 1

PBS simulcast YT
posted by Glinn at 6:01 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Just reading the white prose on the purple paper. It’s as close as I want to get.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:02 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

Well heck the computer running my bedroom TV seems to be on the fritz, so I'm on my dumb little tablet. (Yes I simply must watch from bed, for the fainting.)
posted by phunniemee at 6:02 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Oh damn nerves
posted by Glinn at 6:03 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

I’m so nervous. He’s so nervous. Ahhhhhhhh
posted by sucre at 6:04 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Wow...the VPs got a tougher question than the presidential candidates.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:04 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Walz starting straight out with "Isreal issue started on 10/7". Not the look I was hoping for.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 6:04 PM on October 1 [10 favorites]

Walz starting off sounding like a Republican and not answering the question. How hard is it to say “no, no pre emptive strike on Iran”?
posted by corb at 6:05 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Yeah, but he's doing OK in terms of pointing out that Trump would equal chaos when it comes to foreign policy - also foreign policy is clearly not his strong suite (not surprising, given he's a governor) - I imagine he'll ease into this once it gets to domestic policies.
posted by coffeecat at 6:06 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Vance is trying to do the Harris face. Waltz not answering the question, which to be fair is too tough a question.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:06 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Vance: Israel? Let's instead begin with my author bio.
posted by mochapickle at 6:06 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

Walz sounded shaken at the beginning.

Vance stares at Walz. Seems like he doesn’t want to catch the same criticisms as Trump.
posted by terrierhead at 6:06 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Vance: “I’m going to answer the question, but first let me give you a one minute biography.”
posted by corb at 6:06 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Oof. Walz is not polished
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:07 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Did someone say Vance was on the debate team or something. He is less nervous :(
posted by Glinn at 6:07 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Did they have the questions written at the bottom of the screen during the Prez debate? Remind everyone what they were supposed to be answering?
posted by phunniemee at 6:08 PM on October 1

Walz is hitting his stride now.
posted by terrierhead at 6:08 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Walz is already loosening up. Starting first is always nerve-wracking.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:08 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Ok now there is the Walz we need.
posted by Glinn at 6:08 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Walz much stronger in the rebuttal!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:08 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Vance's insincere deference to Walz is grating.
posted by porpoise at 6:10 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Yeah, though he still didn’t answer the question. He needs to answer the next one - I get the sense that Vance, a debater, is going to make sure to at least nominally do so each time and then call Walz out for not doing the same.
posted by corb at 6:10 PM on October 1

Vance is only referring to the Harris Administration, no mention of whatsisname, Biden.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:10 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Dear Vance you can't attack Harris the way Walz does Trump. Trump was President, Harris has only been a VP. She doesn't helm the ship.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:10 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Ok, nice to see climate stage as the second question.
posted by coffeecat at 6:11 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

“Kamala Harris administration,” from your lips to God’s ears, JD, but you’re a little early there.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:11 PM on October 1 [14 favorites]

JFC Vance. Ask a scientist. Crack a book.
posted by terrierhead at 6:12 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Weird science!!
posted by kensington314 at 6:14 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Waltz is a little rougher in his delivery, but maybe that’s more authentic? Vance is pretty slick.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:14 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Wild watching a debate where both participants can speak coherently and fluently.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:15 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

I mean Vance is slick because he's slimey.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:15 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

I like that he takes his time to repeatedly slam Trump on his insane comments. It’s clear that he’s not even spending much time on Vance, because it’s a waste of time.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:15 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

"I harvest corn and I harvest soybeans and I harvest wind" is a cool line and feels very futuristic Americana.
posted by phunniemee at 6:15 PM on October 1 [27 favorites]

Vance: Well, ya got trouble, my friend, right here, I say, trouble right here in River City.
posted by mochapickle at 6:16 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Walz looks like he’s getting angry. I hope it turns into fiery rhetoric.

Vance’s eyeliner is flawless.
posted by terrierhead at 6:16 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

No Vance, Natural Gas still emits carbon. We need nuclear, solar, and wind.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:16 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Good news guys I turned my computer upside down and smacked it a few times and it started up! Running updates now. We may get to watch this debate on the big TV yet.
posted by phunniemee at 6:17 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Vance really practiced his “Who farted?” look.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:17 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Vance is good at this. He refuses to defend Trump, because he's indefensible. Walz should point that out.
posted by ryoshu at 6:17 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Question for Vance about mass deportations.
posted by box at 6:18 PM on October 1

Build the wall! DRINK!
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:18 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Dude Fetynal supply is in decline, read the news
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:18 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Vance: Americans want to work for less than minimum wage.
posted by mochapickle at 6:19 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

So they’re not fact-checking, but they are queuing up those questions nicely. Climate Change, calls for Mass Deportation, these are not topics framed to help the Trump campaign.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:20 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

I feel like Vance is saying "Margaret" a lot in some kind of weird attempt to seem like he doesn't loathe all women.
posted by TwoStride at 6:20 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

What if the real deportations was all the friends Kamala let in along the way
posted by phunniemee at 6:20 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

The questions continue to be way harder than they gave to the Presidential candidates. Vance is very good at debating - makes sense, he did it more regularly. Many folks won’t know how batshit his ideas are. I think Walz is going to have to take him on directly at some point.
posted by corb at 6:20 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Yeah, hit 'em on tanking the bipartisan immigration deal!
posted by Reverend John at 6:21 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Vance will be running for president in 4 years regardless of what happens. He doesn’t want to be too much like Trump. Not that he can really shake it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:21 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Good news guys I turned my computer upside down and smacked it a few times and it started up!

Percussive troubleshooting sometimes works on electronics. Could it work on politicians?
posted by otherchaz at 6:21 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

I feel like Vance is saying "Margaret" a lot in some kind of weird attempt to seem like he doesn't loathe all women.


It's such slimy, used-car-salesman vibes.
posted by oc-to-po-des at 6:22 PM on October 1 [14 favorites]

Border Czar! DRINK!
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:23 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

“Gov. Walz, do you want to respond to any of Sen Vance’s claims, including ‘Kamala Harris is conspiring with cartels and Satanists to turn widows and orphans into drug mules?’”
posted by leotrotsky at 6:23 PM on October 1 [13 favorites]

Waltz keeps saying "Senator Vance" while Vance says "Tim."
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:25 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Half the country doesn’t care about dehumanizing others, though.
posted by terrierhead at 6:25 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

"What do you think about polls that show more than 50% of Americans support mass deportations?"

I'm glad you asked! More than 50% of Americans are buttholes. Next question?
posted by phunniemee at 6:25 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

Please, if you put something in quotes, say who said it. Is that real or a joke?
posted by njohnson23 at 6:25 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

So they’re not fact-checking, but they are queuing up those questions nicely. Climate Change, calls for Mass Deportation, these are not topics framed to help the Trump campaign.

I was just thinking about that, too.

But it really could work in Vance's favor if he plays it right -- he could add context, soften Trump's wacky absolutes, and establish himself as Trump's Adult In The Room. People who are legitimately concerned about Trump's troubling state of mind might feel reassured by a VP who could temper him. Eight years ago, that was one of the ways they were positioning Pence.
posted by mochapickle at 6:25 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Margaret.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:26 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Look.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:26 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Look Margaret.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:26 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Sorry, it’s a slight paraphrase from one of the moderators, who are doing a pretty good job.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:26 PM on October 1

Bible verse. Drink?
posted by terrierhead at 6:27 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

I am really loving Walz in this. Vance is looking like an ass when he keeps calling him Tim where Walz keeps calling Vance Senator. And Walz is just cutting straight through the BS that Vance is throwing while also pegging some of his BS on Vance's view of Ohio. Vance should know the state he represents and he is just... maybe looking good to the always Trumpers, but probably not a lot of others, I think.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 6:27 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

turn off his mic!
posted by Reverend John at 6:27 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Walz, getting in the first Bible citation.
posted by coffeecat at 6:27 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Cut his mic, Margaret.
posted by terrierhead at 6:27 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Mute this dipshit
posted by sucre at 6:28 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Time to use the mute button.
posted by coffeecat at 6:28 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Margaret. Margaret. Margaret.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:28 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

THEY CUT HIS MIKE.
posted by gimonca at 6:28 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Uh yeah where’s the mute dammit
posted by Glinn at 6:28 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

There they go.
posted by coffeecat at 6:28 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Men love interrupting women and I am so here for them cutting their mics.
posted by corb at 6:28 PM on October 1 [37 favorites]

YAY MIC CUT
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:28 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

They muted the mics!
posted by otherchaz at 6:28 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

I think it's important to note that both candidates overrehearsed their quirky soundbites.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:29 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Mute, drink?
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:29 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Margaret, drink!
posted by mochapickle at 6:29 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Edit - yes! Got it!

Walz, please hit this question. Pete has to have prepped this.
posted by terrierhead at 6:29 PM on October 1

Walz seems much more relaxed ,and a better speaker, when he's talking about domestic issues.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:30 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Conservatives don't recognize Matthew as a book of the Bible. The Beatitudes are problematic for them.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:30 PM on October 1 [19 favorites]

I am surprised Vance went with a pink tie. It looks good! I like color! But isn't it sort of... you know... pink?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:31 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Yes, why didn’t she implement them with the vast powers of the …vice president?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:32 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

Whenever he cites any numbers, Walz sounds like he's trying to sell me something in one of the state fair pavilions.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:33 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Vance, Yale grad, shits on experts with PhDs for not having common sense or ‘wisdom’.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:33 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

Ugh, I can't believe Trump & Vance keep coming back to Harris' "lack" of achievement during 3 1/2 years *when he was President for 4 and didn't address the same problems!*
posted by Reverend John at 6:33 PM on October 1 [19 favorites]

Walz, please start calling him JD.
posted by terrierhead at 6:33 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

LoL don't listen to Economists and people with PHDs, just look at how I feel.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:33 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Maybe the pink tie, the slightly lighter blue jacket, the throwing in "I'm 40 years old" with no context is all supposed to make him seem young and fresh?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:33 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

Yes MENTION COVID don't let Trump ever let that down
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:34 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

I am surprised Vance went with a pink tie. It looks good! I like color! But isn't it sort of... you know... pink?

Pink ties are a Trump signature look. Not that shade, though, I guess.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:34 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Ugh, I can't believe Trump & Vance keep coming back to Harris' "lack" of achievement during 3 1/2 years *when he was President for 4 and didn't address the same problems!*

He nailed this in his response.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:34 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Vance lauds the ‘common sense wisdom’ of Donald Trump, man with a gold toilet.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:36 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

You heard it from JD, Don’t listen to experts.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:36 PM on October 1

can Walz just point and laugh or is that not helpful?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:36 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Nobody has ever accused Donald Trump of having wisdom before tonight.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:36 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Good, making clear that you can't just talk about manufacturing without talking about unions.
posted by coffeecat at 6:36 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Sen. N.T. Vaxx
posted by Rhaomi at 6:36 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Walz, please start calling him JD.

I wonder if it’s the military tic of not wanting to give anyone a lesser title than they’ve earned.
posted by corb at 6:37 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Vance is just lying... Fuck this dude.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:37 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Walz has him on content, but Vance sounds so polished. Morons are going to go for Vance on this.

Whack a mole to a Gish gallop.
posted by terrierhead at 6:37 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

We had a manufacturing boom of high tech goods during the Obama administration. Trump managed to tank a lot of that by claiming trade wars were good. Letting that madness back into the Oval Office should be anathema to any pro-business voter.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 6:37 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Wtf vaccines are made by countries that hate us!?
posted by tarantula at 6:37 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Ugh he’s such a slimy toad
posted by Glinn at 6:38 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Maybe the pink tie, the slightly lighter blue jacket, the throwing in "I'm 40 years old" with no context is all supposed to make him seem young and fresh?

Omg, he's totally doing that! Throwing in all those little personal details -- it's like he's trying to fill up the public's mental dataset so we stop thinking about couches.

The whole pink tie intensity thing makes me feel like I'm being cornered at a college party by a Young Republican.

(and there he goes again, this time with a story about being raised by a woman who stuggled to put food on the table....)
posted by mochapickle at 6:38 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

It is advantageous for both Walz and Vance to treat Harris as if she was currently President, just saying. On the whole, Harris gains credibility because of that.
posted by Peach at 6:38 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

MY COMPUTER IS FINALLY WORKING
NOW COUCH FUCKER'S FACE IS VERY BIG
I HAVE REGRETS
posted by phunniemee at 6:38 PM on October 1 [41 favorites]

I think Vance sounds a little too polished, to be honest. He sounds like the slick consultant who shuts down the mill.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:38 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Damn, the *moderator* is going for the Tiananmen check?
posted by corb at 6:38 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

can Walz just point and laugh or is that not helpful?
Yeah no, it's not great that Walz looks forlorn and stressed out the whole time. (Ok when he's speaking, it's more when he's listening)
posted by coffeecat at 6:38 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Yall, this is rough.
posted by flamk at 6:39 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Say "I misspoke on the Tiananmen thing" and move on.
posted by Reverend John at 6:39 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Walz's non-trip to Tiananmen is the most important issue facing Americans today
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:39 PM on October 1 [15 favorites]

Gov. Walz please just say that you screwed up when you were young and conflated the events of the news and your life. Just be human.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 6:40 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

For some reason Tim Walz gets a whole question about how he misstated when he was in Hong Kong by two months but JD Vance doesn't get a question about how he and his running mate turned the lives of people in Springfield into a living hell complete with bomb threats on kindergartens because they refused, despite pleas from city and state officials, to stop lying about Haitian immigrants eating cats and dogs.
posted by Method Man at 6:40 PM on October 1 [52 favorites]

Walz: “I’ve been a knucklehead at times.” +100 for authenticity.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:40 PM on October 1 [27 favorites]

I hate that this is true, and that the NYT broke this just now:

Tim Walz Said He Was in Hong Kong in 1989 During Tiananmen. Not True.

Not even adding the NYT link. Fuck them for dropping this right before the debate. It's upthread if anyone wants to find it.

Throwing a gotcha right before the debate is some fucking shit.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 6:40 PM on October 1 [22 favorites]

There you go, Walz. Own the gaffe.

Oof, though.
posted by terrierhead at 6:40 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

America's Hitler!!
posted by gimonca at 6:40 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Oofda
posted by tllaya at 6:40 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Painful
posted by flamk at 6:41 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Wtf vaccines are made by countries that hate us!?

I think he means they're made in countries he hates.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:41 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

I didn't expect a moderator to say the word "hitler"
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:41 PM on October 1

Casual watchers, if there are any, are going to see Vance winning so far. Seemingly more composed and articulate.
posted by Rumple at 6:41 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Vance, you are a toadie, just be honest you kiss-ass bitch.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:42 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

WELL FIRST OF ALL MARGARET
posted by oc-to-po-des at 6:42 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Why does Walz look so sad?
posted by terrierhead at 6:42 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Unfortunately, yup
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:42 PM on October 1

I can't imagine there are more than five or six people in the world who a) are registered voters, b) haven't decided who to vote for and c) are watching this debate.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:42 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Margaret!

(Why is he never addressing Norah?)
posted by mochapickle at 6:43 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Trump had two years of Republican House and Senate. He was awful as a leader. Good for my positions but FFS why return to willful ineptitude?
posted by Ignorantsavage at 6:43 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Seemingly more composed and articulate.

Suspiciously so. Check for an earpiece.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:43 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

You've done so many interviews because you're more coherent than your damn boss who wants the oval office in the first place
posted by JoeXIII007 at 6:43 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Yeah I'm getting stressed out with Walz's worried frown and looking over/down a lot--it makes him seem very nervous and less leader-ly.
posted by TwoStride at 6:43 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Suspiciously so. Check for an earpiece

Let’s not go all brain worm.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:44 PM on October 1 [14 favorites]

“That is ridiculous. No one supports that.”

C’Mon Walz
posted by terrierhead at 6:44 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Why does Walz look so sad?

If I had to stand that close to Vance for a prolonged period of time I'd look sad, too.
posted by phunniemee at 6:45 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

“Now the issue of reproductive rights.”
posted by box at 6:45 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Why does Walz look so sad?

He has Resting Sad Face.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:46 PM on October 1 [15 favorites]

I'll admit I'm surprised at his performance so far - Walz is good with interviews, whether short or long-form. I know debates are different genres, but I'd figured he'd be a bit better. He's doing better as we go, but still.
posted by coffeecat at 6:46 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

I can't imagine there are more than five or six people in the world who a) are registered voters, b) haven't decided who to vote for and c) are watching this debate.

Undecided voters don’t watch Vice Presidential debates. They’re busy eating paste and struggling to unzip their jackets.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:46 PM on October 1 [35 favorites]

Does anyone know what kind of family Vance grew up in? Was in working class?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:47 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Why the hell would we trust Trump and Vance about this, ever?
posted by terrierhead at 6:47 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Weird gambit on abortion here
posted by kensington314 at 6:47 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

What about contraception and family planning?
posted by Ignorantsavage at 6:47 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Walz is wearing resting mid-westerner face
posted by JoeXIII007 at 6:47 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

You're right, JD, Republicans do suck.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:48 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Suspiciously so. Check for an earpiece

No, this is just the forum he’s most comfortable with, and I suspect he had no shortage of people to do debate prep with, and unlike Trump, was willing to actually do it. That abortion answer is so good it *must* have been practiced.
posted by corb at 6:48 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

That was not a sad look, that was a Walz stare of outrage and shock.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 6:48 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

I hope the woman he grew up with who had an abortion and confided in him goes and pisses on his house.
posted by phunniemee at 6:48 PM on October 1 [24 favorites]

Walz doing pretty good on this second pass at the abortion question
posted by kensington314 at 6:49 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Why does Walz look so sad?

He genuinely cares about people and it hurts his heart to see the one he is debating just spew garbage to get elected whereas Walz actually wants to help people?

It can be tiring.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 6:49 PM on October 1 [15 favorites]

Vance confronted with his past quotes in favour of a national abortion ban, has the look of a confused dog.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:50 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Vance: The GOP has a ton of work to do to earn back trust when it comes to reproductive issues.

Which, that's genuinely a great, candid answer. If the GOP supported healthcare, childcare, education, equal pay, affordable housing, community health, etc., it would in fact be a lot easier to trust them.
posted by mochapickle at 6:50 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

Hey Vance, there is no such thing as a partial-birth abortion.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:50 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

Vance confronted with his past quotes in favour of a national abortion ban, has the look of a confused dog.

Will No One Eat This Dog?
posted by phunniemee at 6:51 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

I'm pro-abortion! It is a reasonable position! Abortion is health care!
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:51 PM on October 1 [15 favorites]

Oh, Vance heard us and he's talking to Norah now.
posted by mochapickle at 6:52 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

I want Walz to say that it’s idiocy to believe partial birth abortions are a thing.
posted by terrierhead at 6:52 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Huh, I agree with Vance, there are a lot of people out there who should still be alive.
posted by coffeecat at 6:52 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Vance on MN abortion law - 1st rate sophistry.
posted by theora55 at 6:52 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Vance: "A majority of my own constituents [told me to go fuck myself], and I thought that was a good thing."

Great! Let's keep doing that.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:52 PM on October 1 [13 favorites]

YES FORCE CATHOLIC HOSPITALS TO PROVIDE ABORTIONS
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:52 PM on October 1 [22 favorites]

Oh thank god. (commercial break)
posted by Reverend John at 6:53 PM on October 1

Vance is terrible in front of a crowd, but this controlled highly artificial and strained format plays to his strengths. Walz is more personable and could have used a crowd.
posted by otherchaz at 6:53 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Vance: “We need to make this country more pro-baby.”

I… what?
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:54 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

I’m worried about commentary on this debate. The left loves to throw itself under the bus.
posted by terrierhead at 6:55 PM on October 1 [13 favorites]

God. Walz, just give him where he’s wrong on the law. Don’t let him play you like this. This is fucking painful. “Someone else fact checked that” {paraphrase} is not the way to go.
posted by corb at 6:55 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

It is very hard to check blatant lies. There are no sections of the statute that specifically say what the law is not about.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 6:56 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

We're better with being honest with ourselves. Problem is doing that publicly looks like throwing ourselves under the bus.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:57 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Jeez, the ad buys on this thing are fucking idiotic.
posted by box at 6:58 PM on October 1

30ish minutes to go... must ... hold ... on ...
posted by Reverend John at 6:58 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

This is a draw so far. There's an opportunity cost--ideally the goal ought to be to convince red voters to stay home. Probably not going to move the needle either way. It's not terrible, but it's not going to gain the good guys any ground.

Hopefully the bit that turns up on SNL is the part where Vance goes wack attacking the moderator and gets his mic cut off.
posted by gimonca at 6:59 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Hooray, gun violence! Vance can talk about more people who should still be alive today!
posted by phunniemee at 6:59 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Jeez, the ad buys on this thing are fucking idiotic

Babes, y'all all gotta get on this cspan train
posted by phunniemee at 7:00 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

Hold up, I thought the talk of him having children was a joke. Who would do that to themselves?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:00 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Vance: Let's turn schools into prisons, for safety!
posted by mochapickle at 7:00 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

The mass shooters’ guns were legally obtained.
posted by terrierhead at 7:00 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

School Resource Officers!? This MF'er is a idiot.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:01 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Let’s MAKE THE DOORS STRONGER. Jfc
posted by sucre at 7:01 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

yeah stronger windows are definitely going to stop school shootings, A+ plan there
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:01 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

God. Walz, just give him where he’s wrong on the law. Don’t let him play you like this. This is fucking painful. “Someone else fact checked that” {paraphrase} is not the way to go.

I suspect the thing is that the law DOESN'T say the doctor has to provide life-saving treatment etc. etc. if the baby is somehow born in the case of an abortion because A) That's not actually a thing and B) There's no reason that would have to be in the law because if a baby were somehow born it would be a person with all the legal rights of any other person and would then be covered by whatever other laws are relevant (manslaughter, medical neglect, etc. etc.) so that doesn't need to be in the abortion law itself. So it's not LEGAL to just let the hypothetical magic baby die, but it IS technically true that the law doesn't SAY you have to save the baby.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:01 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Make the doors stronger!
Make the windows stronger!
Make the gun laws stronger!
Two truths and a lie!
posted by phunniemee at 7:01 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

The mass shooters’ guns were legally obtained.

What, reality was supposed to be part of his answer.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:02 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

YES BRING UP THE BAN ON RESEARCHING GUN VIOLENCE
signed,
Elizabeth Warren
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:02 PM on October 1 [20 favorites]

I want Walz to call Vance out on being a slick sleazy lawyer with no heart.
posted by theora55 at 7:03 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

YES YES YES Walz has my vote just for his reaction to the talk about school gun violence
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:03 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Christ have mercy
Lolol
posted by sucre at 7:03 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Baaaarffff, JD
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:03 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Hold up, I thought the talk of him having children was a joke.

He has two ottomans and a very cute footstool. He's very proud.
posted by mochapickle at 7:03 PM on October 1 [18 favorites]

Why is that, JD? Why do we have worse mental health?

Hint: economic disparities.
posted by terrierhead at 7:04 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Zero percent of the lockdowns that my kids went through during their school years happened in a big city.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:05 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Look, what you have to understand is that Finland, where they have comprehensive public healthcare options, has better mental health than America.
posted by phunniemee at 7:05 PM on October 1 [20 favorites]

Why is that, JD? Why do we have worse mental health?

The failure to adopt a single payer system?
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:05 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

"It's just the guns." I heart Walz
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:06 PM on October 1 [17 favorites]

You know what's an even bigger piece of it, JD? The fact that there are more pieces than people.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:06 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Vance blinking furiously in disbelief, wondering how he’s been outflanked on religious drops.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:06 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

Walz missed a big opportunity there to tie Vance to the types of investment firms that treat housing as a commodity.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:07 PM on October 1 [10 favorites]

Universal healthcare would do us all so much good, and Republicans will never have it happen.
posted by terrierhead at 7:07 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

> Look, what you have to understand is that Finland, where they have comprehensive public healthcare options, has better mental health than America

Their southern border wall must be stronger than ours.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:07 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Hopefully the bit that turns up on SNL is the part where Vance goes wack attacking the moderator and gets his mic cut off.

I kind of feel like I've been watching a particularly unfunny SNL rendition this whole time.

Probably it's the Nora/Margaret shtick in which both of the candidate's answers are dismissed before the segue to the next question.

"The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the sky is, in fact, blue. Now, moving on to the 2+2 issue. Margaret?"
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:07 PM on October 1

Okay Vance, WTF?
posted by terrierhead at 7:08 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

So it's not LEGAL to just let the hypothetical magic baby die, but it IS technically true that the law doesn't SAY you have to save the baby.

“We didn’t need to put that in that specific statute, because doctors already have a legal duty of care to all children born in Minnesota” because again, I would be shocked if somehow the duty of care is different in Minnesota than everywhere else.

But really I think the thing I’m frustrated with Walz on is that Vance is using these very obvious debate/law school tactics, that had to be predictable, and it doesn’t seem like he practiced his answers to the most likely attacks.
posted by corb at 7:09 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

If I didn't already live in the best city in the country, I'd be paking my wagon tomorrow and moving to Minnesota. Tim's doing a great job hyping his state today.
posted by phunniemee at 7:09 PM on October 1 [14 favorites]

Why do we have worse mental health?

The Deaths of Despair graph maps pretty neatly to the Reagan uncoupling of labor earnings from wealth accretion amongst the rich. So a better healthcare system is not going to turn that ship around all the way.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:09 PM on October 1 [13 favorites]

The VP has legislative power outside of breaking tie votes in the Senate? Wow, I know that is bats#!t.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:09 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

We should be taking homes from hedge funds and investment firms.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:10 PM on October 1 [13 favorites]

Pave our national parks so we can build starter castles!
posted by gimonca at 7:10 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

If Trump suddenly cares about energy efficiency, new single-family units in new developments are not the way to go.
posted by terrierhead at 7:11 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Oh my god, Vance’s self-satisfied smirk. Normally only seen by Chesterfields.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:11 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Thank you Walz!
posted by terrierhead at 7:13 PM on October 1

Vance: Illegals are taking up all the housing.
posted by mochapickle at 7:13 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

We should be building more three to five story multi-family housing in urban areas and maintaining high standards of construction and maintenance.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:14 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

I think the problem is we all want Tim to score points and figuratively smack him down. But he is a nice guy who is trying to take Vance seriously.
posted by Glinn at 7:14 PM on October 1 [15 favorites]

Vance's family with preexisting conditions got off Medicaid and onto private insurance for the first time under Trump's presidency. Thanks, Obama.
posted by phunniemee at 7:15 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

Trump is responsible for the Affordable Care Act? Damn, I fell through some kind of warp.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:15 PM on October 1 [14 favorites]

Vance’s answers are in a bullshit feedback loop. Daisy, Daisy…
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:16 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Chat, did Trump actually save Obamacare?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:16 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Single Payer Now
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:17 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

My streaming service keeps throwing a “fatal error” which strongly mirrors my own feelings here.
posted by jeoc at 7:17 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

I think the problem is we all want Tim to score points and figuratively smack him down. But he is a nice guy who is trying to take Vance seriously.

To use a football metaphor, Walz just has to play a prevent defense tonight. No big gaffes or moments that can help swing momentum back to Trump.
posted by azpenguin at 7:17 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Single Payer Now

Thoughts and Payers is the Republican plan concept
posted by phunniemee at 7:17 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

>Chat, did Trump actually save Obamacare?

I'm gonna have to say no
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:17 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Trump saved Obamacare by alienating John McCain enough that he gave Trump a final "fuck you" before he died.
posted by Reverend John at 7:18 PM on October 1 [45 favorites]

Too much of Vance lying without consequences.

I suspect that James Carville probably isn't the most popular political figure around these parts, I got my problems with him, but he had a maxim: "If you see your opponent drowning, throw the sumbitch an anchor." We could use a little more of that.
posted by gimonca at 7:19 PM on October 1 [14 favorites]

Trump saved Obamacare by alienating John McCain enough that he gave Trump a final "fuck you" before he died.

This, a thousand times, this.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:19 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

This would be a nice time to say, simply and clearly, that everything Vance is saying about Trump and Obamacare is pure horseshit.
posted by nobody at 7:19 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Vance needs to check his notes. One of the reasons the ACA was struggling was because certain red states declined federal funding, declined expansion, just to make it fail.
posted by mochapickle at 7:19 PM on October 1 [18 favorites]

Margaret. Margaret.

It helps if you repeat it in Hawkeye Pierce’s voice. MARGARET.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:21 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

Will Vance be stupid enough here to say have Grandma watch the kids? Probably not but we can dream.
posted by phunniemee at 7:21 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

NYT: Vance’s Dominant Debate Performance Shows Why He’s Trump’s Running Mate

because why wait for it to be finished?
posted by Rumple at 7:23 PM on October 1 [29 favorites]

Really wish the Dem ticket actually had a __ days paid leave policy they were running on, regarding this section of the debate
posted by kensington314 at 7:23 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Waltz should have torn Vance's face off on the '40 years' bit -- you mean 40 years of trickle down economics, stagnant wages, privatizing gains and dumping costs on the commons by outstripping regulation? Packing the judiciary with Federalist judges who predictably rule for elites and against everyday people? etc.

If Vance's move is to saddle Harris with her predecessors' neoliberalism, then they can answer to the GOP's neo-conservatism and equally unabashed willingness to optimize and offshore to make the line go up.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:23 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Vance: I only care about issues that relate directly to myself, my family, and people I know.
posted by mochapickle at 7:24 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

Does anyone know how many kids Vance has?
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:24 PM on October 1

NYT: Vance’s Dominant Debate Performance Shows Why He’s Trump’s Running Mate

because why wait for it to be finished?

Style over substance, it is the NYT way.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:24 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

No woman wants to go to work immediately after giving birth, you dunce.
posted by terrierhead at 7:24 PM on October 1 [14 favorites]

Since he just brought up his wife, I was on a girls trip last week with a handful of women who went to high school with Usha and they're all so distraught.
posted by phunniemee at 7:24 PM on October 1 [22 favorites]

Vouchers for childcare? Is that what he's saying?
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:25 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Does anyone know if Vance has a wife who he says he finds attractive?
posted by terrierhead at 7:25 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Why is it every time a Republican says "choice" they mean the opposite?
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:25 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Vance: I only care about issues that relate directly to myself, my family, and people I know.

That is the basic premise of almost all conservatives and reactionaries.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:25 PM on October 1 [16 favorites]

Peeeenalizing. Margaret.
posted by mochapickle at 7:26 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Walz might have resting disappointed face but I prefer that to Vance's resting smirk.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:26 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

Vance is not being reminded enough that his, and his party's, platforms are mostly cribbed from the Handmaid's Tale.
posted by gimonca at 7:26 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Oh, isn't it time for closing statements?
posted by Reverend John at 7:27 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Peeeenalizing is how he got his 3 children amirite
posted by phunniemee at 7:27 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

I have seen Vance’s patronizing, dismissive look at the women moderators in so many of my bosses.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:27 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

Why is it every time a Republican says "choice" they mean the opposite?

"We have money and can afford to be hypocrites but inflict our moral purity on the poors." This also applies to those deluded enough to believe that they will become rich.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:27 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

someone ban phunniemee
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:28 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Oooh, wait, a last question about Trump's election lies? OK! I'll hang in there!
posted by Reverend John at 7:28 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Re: NYT - I read Ross Douthat as Ross Doughhat
posted by zenon at 7:29 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

"I'll answer your question because you did ask it" ... gosh, thanks JD!
posted by Reverend John at 7:29 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Did he just call Margaret Laura?
posted by mochapickle at 7:29 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Laura?
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:30 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

> Did he just call Margaret Laura?

yup
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:30 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Don’t let him dodge this. C’mon Walz.

TFG sent a mob to the Capitol chanting Hang Mike Pence.
posted by terrierhead at 7:30 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Debate peacefully! In the public square! You know the one, where they hang people! Meet you there!
posted by phunniemee at 7:30 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Vance, shut your lying face you fascist
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:31 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Biden was mentioned! 10:31 pm! Holy shit.

(Mentioned second to Harris, but still.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:31 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Censorship? No one can shut these asses the hell up!
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:31 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

Vouchers for childcare? Is that what he's saying?

Either that or the tax credit, yeah. I think possibly pushing for religious schools to be included in any childcare plan.
posted by corb at 7:31 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

They're all basically the same name
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:31 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

"Kamala Harris is a threat to democracy because she wants to censor disinformation" is something...
posted by Reverend John at 7:31 PM on October 1 [13 favorites]

ooof I don't know if that RFK Jr endorsement is the win you think it is, buddy
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:31 PM on October 1 [18 favorites]

"Didn"
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:32 PM on October 1

They're all basically the same name

If this were an hour longer, he'd just end up calling them both Sister Uterus.
posted by mochapickle at 7:33 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

He's said "Laura" instead of "Norah" a couple of times so far.
posted by oc-to-po-des at 7:33 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Beat him in the parking lot, Walz.
posted by terrierhead at 7:34 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

"Trump left peacefully on January 20th" ... after his coup attempt on Jan. 6th failed.
posted by Reverend John at 7:34 PM on October 1 [16 favorites]

He's said "Laura" instead of "Norah" a couple of times so far.

'Listen, Lady:'
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:34 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

I remember a very different process of power transfer and claims of Trump victory throughout 2020, by TFG.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:35 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

I love Walz's "WTF" facial reaction, there.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:35 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Vance bothsidesing election fraud — he has never been more punchable.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:35 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Democrats pointing out Russian election interference in 2016 is totally just as bad as a violent coup attempt!
posted by oc-to-po-des at 7:35 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

"Trump left peacefully on January 20th" ... after his coup attempt on Jan. 6th failed.

yep. vance is annoying as hell.

there is a princess bride meme where we say he does not understand the words that he is speaking. what a jerk.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:36 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Bwa ha ha
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:36 PM on October 1

Alright. That's my limit. Have a good night, everyone
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:36 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Walz should have insisted they hold the debate in a donut shop
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 7:36 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

If anyone here hasn’t seen Stopping the Steal, it’s on Hulu and is essential viewing.
posted by terrierhead at 7:36 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Walz' WTF face for president 2032
posted by phunniemee at 7:36 PM on October 1 [10 favorites]

Welp, glad he brought up the reason there was an open slot for Trump's VP this time around.
posted by oc-to-po-des at 7:38 PM on October 1 [22 favorites]

NYT: Vance’s Dominant Debate Performance Shows Why He’s Trump’s Running Maté

Oh, it’s Douthat. They even look like permutations on the same guy.
posted by atoxyl at 7:38 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Goodnight everyone, going to walk dogs.
posted by Glinn at 7:39 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Walz is killing me here, but I’m not sure how this looks to anyone not up on 1A law. He had so many good options here to respond to Vance and dropped all of them.
posted by corb at 7:39 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Who's gonna honor democracy and who's gonna honor Donald Trump? Great final words.
posted by kbar1 at 7:39 PM on October 1 [13 favorites]

The corporate grade Republican talking point generator is running, disappointingly. The Jan 20 v 6 flip is dangerous
posted by JoeXIII007 at 7:41 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Maybe I'm coping, but I like this take:

@MaxKennerly

I wanted Walz to be more aggressive but I'm not going to pretend it's a big failure to *not* look like a trained lawyer. He looks and sounds genuine. JD Vance sounds like he 's defending asbestos as perfectly safe. Pundits like the latter, but the public likes the former.

Still, he wasn't as avuncular as he is on the trail or in interviews. He should have 'lil bro'd' Vance more.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:44 PM on October 1 [21 favorites]

They did so talk about energy.
posted by terrierhead at 7:45 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Vance you totally talked about energy, did you forget already?
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:45 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Huh I thought Vance was gonna do a slick closing statement but this is...ass?
posted by phunniemee at 7:46 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

The hungry as the rich man how is doing, isn't that wonderful? Please sir, may we please have some bread and circuses?
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:46 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Decent closing statement from Walz, at least.

Vance is stilted and halting in his closing statement, he's back to his wooden mannekin persona.
posted by gimonca at 7:47 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Walz won the closing remarks.
posted by terrierhead at 7:47 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]

this is...ass?

And not well couched, at that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:48 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

I hate the stupid hand shakes and pretend civility at the end.
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:48 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Nice closing statement from Walz, full of authenticity.

Vance’s closing statement, more slickness, only not so slick.

Debate winner: Margaret.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:48 PM on October 1 [12 favorites]

I hate the stupid hand shakes and pretend civility at the end.

You would prefer knives in the chest or pistols at dawn?
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:49 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

Walz was both accurate, and really good on domestic issues. A high school debate scorer would have him winning hands down on those. That's not necessarily how these dimly debate-like entertainment events are judged, though.

CBS commentator is now saying that Vance's performance had an "air of unreality". Hahahaha!! Just say it, dude, he lied. Lied, lied, lied.
posted by gimonca at 7:50 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

Civility is not, perforce, respecting others, but showing respect to limit the carnage of demonstrating contempt.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:51 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

It's not on twitch (yet); hard to sign off with "hold this L, clown boy" and a mic drop.

It's Walz, not Stavros.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:52 PM on October 1

I hate the stupid hand shakes and pretend civility at the end.

You would prefer knives in the chest or pistols at dawn?

They should both have a running start to the parking lot and finish with a 24 hour Gran Prix race.
posted by Reverend John at 7:52 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Oh man, NBC doing VoxPop with Pennsylavanian voters that are "undecided". This is possibly even more painful than some of the debate.
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:54 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

Yeahhhhh, if you’re an undecided voter, you’re for sure watching the vice-presidential debate.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:56 PM on October 1 [14 favorites]

PBS commentator said we won’t even be talking about this in 48 hours.
posted by terrierhead at 7:56 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

Circling back to the Obamacare bit: what I remember is that Trump withheld funding for ACA navigators and advertising/promotion during his first year in a direct and explicit attempt to strangle it by lowering signup numbers. To claim now that it was already collapsing on its own, and that Trump saved it by doing the opposite is maddening.

Observation number two: unlike Trump, I guess Vance knows how to code-switch. He even spent this debate saying "Democratic _____" instead of "Democrat _____". For voters fully engulfed in the rightwing cinematic universe, this might be the first time they've heard the proper adjective in the last 10 years?
posted by nobody at 7:58 PM on October 1 [25 favorites]

Okay, pease help me with the energy thing. During that question about affordable housing, Vance jumped right in with energy dependence (presumably so we could drill and frack and then build housing on the carcinogenic wasteland?). Trump had a question about childcare in an interview several weeks ago and started in on energy. There was another question tonight were Vance veered toward energy.

Why are they banging the drum so much on energy?
posted by mochapickle at 7:58 PM on October 1

I said it earlier, Vance is trying to distance himself from some of the detestable Republican stuff because he'l be running in 2028. Talking about how the Repubs need to do better blah blah .But he still has to lie for trump for now and it looks really bad.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:00 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Well, the whole Tiananmen thing mostly came and went. For the next little bit if it comes up Walz should say "I was close to the issue at the time and misspoke. I regret the mistake." Then pivot to something else, and then pivot to the Trump-Vance lies about immigrants eating pets in Springfield.
posted by Reverend John at 8:00 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]

PBS commentator said we won’t even be talking about this in 48 hours.

Of course we won't. Has any VP debate mattered for anything? Only thing I remember is a fly with Pence. It was funny but no one cared. The only time a VP pick even mattered was Palin and that wasn't cause of a debate. It was cause it was Palin.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:01 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]

Vance came across as smooth and "in control," so if you're an undecided who apparently knows nothing about the candidates, your going to give him the win.

Walz missed some good opportunities -- where was the "Kamala Harris is not the president" line? He also assumed you knew the background on many topics, which I think worked to Vance's advantage because he could just drop lies about immigrants driving up the cost of housing and you don't need context to understand that. It may not be true, but it's clear.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:03 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

Why are they banging the drum so much on energy?

It’s one of the biggest issues I hear about from working class people who are not super politically engaged, and it’s one of the issues that Harris is weakest on due to not being able to break openly with Biden. For those who aren’t focused on climate change, then it looks like the Biden administration raised American’s costs for a lot of abstract ideas that don’t matter to them. Remember, even if we know better here, polls show Americans trust Trump more on the economy.
posted by corb at 8:08 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

Tomorrow Kamala should say "I'm a little jealous of Tim, he got to actually debate some policy positions. All I got was an angry old man yelling about eating cats and dogs. I wonder why the Republicans didn't make Vance the nominee"
posted by jermsplan at 8:14 PM on October 1 [33 favorites]

If she doesn't, then Maya Rudolph certainly can.

Since this is fanfare, last week really was a return to form. Carvey and all.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:16 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

For those who aren’t focused on climate change, then it looks like the Biden administration raised American’s costs for a lot of abstract ideas that don’t matter to them.

Idiots gonna fucking idiot I guess. We only just had one of the worst hurricanes, who cares right
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:25 PM on October 1 [8 favorites]

And it couldn't piss me off more than when they say climate change is an IDEA
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:26 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

”Vance: Well, ya got trouble, my friend, right here, I say, trouble right here in River City.”

This really needs repeating. It was his whole thing.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:27 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

I kind of wish we had an opportunity to watch Harris debate Vance. She wouldn’t have let him get away with the accusations of being against the First Amendment without pointing out that Trump wants to literally deport students for protesting. Nail Vance to the wall on his professed and hypocritical values!

Also on a side note, are the rules they agreed to up anywhere? I was surprised to not see anything about either’s military service.
posted by corb at 8:30 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]

Walz mentioned his service, I thought Vance did too.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:33 PM on October 1

"Alls we have to fear is fear itself." I love this guy, I swear.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:34 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

Harris needs to hit the line "Vance was much better than Trump at debating, no wonder Trump doesn't want another debate." over and over. I guarantee it will provoke Trump into debating again.
posted by mmoncur at 8:46 PM on October 1 [23 favorites]

Neither presidential candidate served in the armed forces. Vance would be really stupid to invite discussion of Trump's bone spurs and gaffes on veterans' affairs (from McCain to Arlington). And though Harris has her record as a prosecutor, that is a mixed bag electorally; and militarism is not really the chord to strike at the moment on their side, either.

Beyond not selling out Ukraine and the basic post WWII international system that we benefit from.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:47 PM on October 1

CNN instant poll of debate watchers (about one-third each R/I/D, ~5% more D than public):

Who won?
49% Walz
51% Vance

Who did you think would win before the debate?
54% Walz
45% Vance
posted by Rhaomi at 9:04 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]

I watched it. Walz started nervous, just like Harris did- but got better. But he has this thing, he completes a thought in his head and does not say it and moves on to the next part. He did it all night long. And he said LOOK again and again.

Vance, to my eye, seemed better prepped and so smooth as to be smarmy, distrustful, but I hated him anyway.

Vance was doing some stagecraft, looking aside and to the camera. I got PUA vibes from some of his shtick.
posted by vrakatar at 9:14 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]

More CNN instant poll results (slightly Dem-leaning sample):

Net favorability change (before -> after):
Walz: +14% -> +37%
Vance: -22% -> -3%

Are they qualified to be president? (before -> after)
Walz: 62% yes -> 65% yes
Vance: 50% yes - 58% yes
posted by Rhaomi at 9:21 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]

I know this is a bit goofy but Walz and his wife went to a pizza joint and got a pepperoni pizza at midnight, and wow if I don't identify with their New York experience.
posted by constraint at 9:29 PM on October 1 [18 favorites]

And they offered to buy pizza for the secret service team too.
posted by susiswimmer at 9:31 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]

More CNN poll results:

More in touch with people like me?
48% Walz
35% Vance

Shares your vision for America?
48% Walz
39% Vance

Who defended running-mate better?
33% Walz
37% Vance
27% both

Did the debate change your mind? (Harris voters - Trump voters)
Yes: 1% - 1%
Some: 8% - 14%
No: 91% - 85%
posted by Rhaomi at 9:40 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]

There’s usually a delayed reaction on the takeaways from a debate, but what I’m seeing a lot of right now is “the rules were you weren’t going to fact check!” That’s not exactly gonna help Vance.
posted by azpenguin at 12:25 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]

azpenguin : that seems to be the only remark anyone is focusing on, and the memes will be plentiful.

(even though it's unfair to portray that character as being anywhere near as loathsome as JDV)
posted by revmitcz at 12:56 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]

Vance won the debate, but he lost the war. He showed that a geyser of bullshit can overwhelm a good faith participant (why Walz presumed Vance was also a good faith participant is beyond me, but...), but I am not so sure he made a case for the American people inviting a geyser of bullshit into their homes for the next four years. Few people must have "what if Ted Cruz and Colin Jost had a baby???" down on their list of desirable qualities in a leader.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:12 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]

On a positive note, today on major network TV the morning after is an edited clip of Walz asking Vance: “Did [Trump] lose the 2020 election?”

Vance: [does not answer]

Walz: “That is a damning non-answer.”

This network also focused on Gus Walz experiencing a shooting at a school event, and Vance responding the way a normal-conscienced human should.

Seems like the view (from that particular TV edit, anyway) is that both debaters remained civil, but Walz got more licks in, and the core takeaway for America is that Trump is extremely dangerous for democracy.
posted by edithkeeler at 5:12 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]

Early post-debate polling has Vance as the winner, narrowly, as 51-49, but with both candidates experiencing a bump in their popularity. That shouldn't change much.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:32 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]

Net favorability change (before -> after):
Walz: +14% -> +37%
Vance: -22% -> -3%

What I see in these numbers is that Walz really transcends the partisan divide (with the bigger boost here, too), and I guess Vance, while still a touch underwater, probably successfully won over the republican debate-watchers who had been turned off by what they'd previously seen of him in soundbites. (That's "won over" on likability, not on who they'll be voting for next month. On that score, I think Walz actually won this, based on the "Did the debate change your mind?" results Rhaomi also posted.)

One more observation: I hadn't caught at the time that Vance's evasion of Walz's direct "Did Trump lose the 2020 election" question was even sillier than it might come off at first glance: "Tim, I'm focused on the future. [Attempt to change the topic to something from six months further in the past.]"

(I do wonder what the takeaway there is to a viewer who still does believe the election was clearly stolen. From that perspective, it's an easy question, so why couldn't Vance just say it? There's a joke to be made -- that I can't quite pin down -- about how I guess Kamala Harris must be censoring him, too?)
posted by nobody at 6:10 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]

Audience of one.
posted by porpoise at 7:16 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]

Between "the rules were you weren’t going to fact check" and responding to Walz's ''That is a damning non-answer" about the 2020 election with "It is a damning non-answer for you not to talk about censorship," people who want to see Vance as a smarmy debate nerd will certainly have that opportunity.
posted by box at 7:22 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]

My social media today is full of women making fun of JD. The essence is that JD Vance is a weirdo who looks and talks like he is full of shit, which sure, a low bar. I think the bigger problem for republicans generally that all these middle aged white women have the energy and motivation to make their own meme's just to crap on JD. And this time all the whatabout and response guys have gotten real quiet.
posted by zenon at 7:33 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]

I can't wait until 20 years from now, when Vance writes his tell all book about this time in his life and absolutely rips Trump.

I think he'll do that whether they win or lose this year, but I think if they lose, Vance will be running for President as a Democrat by then. That guy just really wants to be president.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:35 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]

“The rules were you weren’t going to fact check!” should be their campaign slogan.
posted by mazola at 8:13 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]

That IS the GOP's campaign slogan!
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 8:38 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]

Since he just brought up his wife, I was on a girls trip last week with a handful of women who went to high school with Usha and they're all so distraught.

Apparently she could turn into a Black woman at any time. That would be disconcerting.

Vance is not being reminded enough that his, and his party's, platforms are mostly cribbed from the Handmaid's Tale.

Would Usha be OfJD? OfJames?
posted by kirkaracha at 8:38 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]

Walz vs Vance: Fact Checking the VP Debate [Qasim Rashid | Substack]
posted by mazola at 8:52 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]

Net favorability change (before -> after):
Walz: +14% -> +37%
Vance: -22% -> -3%

I feel like this is the upshot and unfortunately I think it counts as a win for Vance because he needed it more, even though Walz’s numbers come out looking great. That’s the problem with Walz taking a conciliatory approach. Although given that he seemed less than confident at times while Vance was very slick I can see why he might have been advised to go that way.

It also kind of feels like debates only matter now if someone really fucks up and I don’t think either candidate did though.
posted by atoxyl at 9:32 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]

I see the hashtags #WinningwithWalz and #LiarLiarVanceonFire are trending on Twitter.
posted by orange swan at 9:41 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]

Proof that Harris is censoring the internets.
posted by AndrewInDC at 9:58 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]

Vance's evasion of Walz's direct "Did Trump lose the 2020 election" question was even sillier than it might come off at first glance: "Tim, I'm focused on the future. [Attempt to change the topic to something from six months further in the past.]"

(I do wonder what the takeaway there is to a viewer who still does believe the election was clearly stolen. From that perspective, it's an easy question, so why couldn't Vance just say it?

Vance couldn't say it because In Walz' pocket were Kamala's magic earrings, the same magic earrings that compelled Trump to say "I have concepts of a plan" and all those other unpresidential utterances.
posted by otherchaz at 10:15 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]

I just watched it on replay. (Had to do my laundry last night.) My take, I think Vance won. Actually, not that Vance won, but that Walz lost. My major takeaway is that both are as slippery as a doorknob at a Diddy party.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:15 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]

I think Vance had a very specific job here which was: counterbalance Trump's raving and make their combined ticket appear more rational. And I think at that he did mostly succeed -- although he did not fully manage to shed his slimy over-polished sheen. (Debate club, law school, whatever: mostly what his affect reminded me of is company meetings where bad news for employees is delivered in slippery corporate-speak.)

"You weren't going to fact check" and his subsequent angry talking over the moderators until his mic was cut did feel like a slip of the mask. (Also, his weird turn into "BUT CENSORSHIP" at the end; what was that about? Please, won't somebody think of the poor alt-right edgelords?)

I too wish Walz had brought some of the energy he's had at campaign events. Treating this as a politely collegial event -- all the "we share the same concerns" stuff -- missed opportunities to call out some of the really weird (women! motherhood!) and inflammatory (immigrants! cats!) stuff Vance has been saying.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:45 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]

Anecdotally, images of 'You weren't going to fact check' are making the rounds.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:04 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]

Vance: "It's really rich for Democratic leaders to say that Donald Trump is a unique threat to democracy when he peacefully gave over power on Jan. 20."

Good time for Jack Smith's latest brief to drop.
posted by mazola at 3:11 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]

it is beyond comprehension why this level of political debate is judged like it is a high school debate competition. One guy lied, repeatedly and even pretty much admitted he was doing so.
posted by olykate at 5:27 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]

"It was my understanding that there would be no math."

Chevy Chase as Gerald Ford in 1976 debate.
posted by rochrobbb at 5:48 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]

In regards to my comment regarding former President Jimmy Carter's 100th birthday above, I will add this

Even on former President Jimmy Carter's 100th birthday, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump took aim at the 39th president's time in office.

At a campaign stop in Waunakee, Wisconsin, Trump said President Joe Biden has replaced Carter as the worst president in American history.

"Jimmy Carter is the happiest man because Jimmy Carter is considered a brilliant president by comparison," Trump said.

This is not the first time that Trump attacked the former president. In May, at a campaign event in New Jersey, he misnamed him after former tennis star Jimmy Connors, while joking "he's also happy."

Trump makes birthday dig at Jimmy Carter, the longest-living former president who turned 100

And here I considered my hatred and detestation for Donald J Trump already limitless. This was just One Step Beyond. How truly shallow my unappreciation of his POSness was. He is beneath our contempt so far beyond the depth of the Marianna Trench.
posted by y2karl at 8:56 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]

And if I might continue a bit more on Jimmy Carter's centenary:

Bob Dylan on Jimmy Carter
posted by y2karl at 9:52 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]

Ugh, I know that trying to tie Trump's claims to reality is absurd, but even beyond the general crassness of the claim, it's absurd to suggest Jimmy Carter was ever considered the worst president in history. Nothing Carter did or failed to do came close to the utter legacy-destroying errors of the Teapot Dome scandal (Harding), the Great Depression (Hoover), and the boiling over of pre-Civil-War conflicts (Buchanan). Other popular choices of extremely dire presidential administrations include Grant (for the flagrant corruption rife in his cabinet), Johnson (for sabotaging the Union victory), and Nixon (for Watergate). AFAICT, despite serving only one term, it's never been seriously suggested that Carter was even a worse-than-average president; his administration was marked by several crises, but with the exception of the Iranian hostage crisis (where there's good reason to believe Reagan's operatives moved to sabotage any resolution), he handled them with at least moderate competence.
posted by jackbishop at 4:39 AM on October 4 [8 favorites]

(Historians rank Trump as worst president, 2/24)
posted by box at 5:43 AM on October 4 [3 favorites]

Carter had moderate competence!? Jesus Aitch Effin' Christ! Have you not heard of the Camp David Accords? How moderately competent was establishing a permanent peace between Egypt and Israel? See also Jimmy Carter Took More Risks for Middle East Peace Than Any Other President—by Far

And Carter kept at it for decades thereafter. So how moderately competent was that? And don't even get me started on Habitat for Humanity. James Earl Carter served one term before losing to Ronald Reagan. Cite me one ex-President who has worked so hard doing good all his life after leaving office. C'mon, give me a name. I await your answer.
posted by y2karl at 7:36 AM on October 4 [9 favorites]

Cite me one other ex-President who has worked so hard etc... to be sure.
posted by y2karl at 7:48 AM on October 4

John Quincy Adams, maybe?
posted by kyrademon at 7:51 AM on October 4

Well, JQA did accomplish a lot. But, on the other hand, Golda Meir authorized the use of nuclear weapons during the Yom Kippur War if things went south and Kissinger talked Nixon into going to Defcon 3 before they didn't, so there is that. So, it's a matter of a wee bit of scale. Plus I misspoke. I should have said Jesus Effin' Aitch Christ! My apologies for that. I still stand by what Carter did with the Camp David Accords. That was an accomplishment far far more than moderately competent, is it not?
posted by y2karl at 10:14 AM on October 4

Ah, blame my mathematical background for the modest claim of "at least moderate competence". I'll also describe frequent occurrences as happening "a nonzero number of times". I wasn't trying to set any sort of upper bound on Carter's accomplishments, so much as to establish that his administration surpassed the truly dire performances which have been typically in the running for "worst president".
posted by jackbishop at 11:57 AM on October 4 [3 favorites]

I don't blame folks for seeing red and wanting to defend Carter, but even before the clarification, that was how I took the comment. It wasn't saying that was where Carter topped out; it was that even allowing for subjective responses across a range, it would be hard for a person to seriously suggest he was incompetent.

But then the right hardly ever says anything seriously anymore. It's all just scraps of cheap meat thrown to their rabid base.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:18 PM on October 4 [2 favorites]

You may be pleased to find that if you dig into those presidential historians' rankings, Carter is at the very top of the "Most Underrated Presidents" list this year. (He's also 22 on the overall list, up four spots from 2018.)

(Trump is, predictably, at the very bottom of the overall list, but also #8 for being overrated.)

(Also of note: at least one historian participating in this year's survey gave Lincoln a mere 10 out of 100 'greatness' score (which didn't impact his 93.87 average enough to drop him from the top spot), and at least one historian gave Trump a 100 out of 100 (which was not enough to salvage his lowest-ranking-of-all-time 10.92 average), and I bet that was the same shitty person both times.)

(Carter's scores ranged all the way from 0 [same guy from above?] to 100 and, surprisingly, only showed a 6 point difference between the average among historians self-identifying as Democrats vs. as Republicans, and just a half a point difference between conservatives vs. liberals.)
posted by nobody at 12:49 PM on October 4 [3 favorites]

>Trump is, predictably, at the very bottom of the overall list,

and yet he's currently ~10,000 votes in WI away from being returned to office.

make it make sense
posted by torokunai at 3:50 PM on October 5 [2 favorites]

solar panels as a gaffe is pretty ironic

(over, say, various invasions into oilfields)
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:06 PM on October 11