Game of Thrones: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken Show Only
May 17, 2015 7:03 PM - Season 5, Episode 6 - Subscribe
Arya trains. Jorah and Tyrion run into slavers. Trystane and Myrcella make plans. Jaime and Bronn reach their destination. The Sand Snakes attack.
I am all kinds of angry right now. I do not have words to speak to my anger. I hope for much bloody dismembered death. I don't think I hated Joffery this much, and that's saying something!
posted by royalsong at 7:41 PM on May 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by royalsong at 7:41 PM on May 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
Well, Cersei seems to be heading directly into a suicide spiral, doesn't she?
I mean, I'm sure she thinks she's just been super smart for having outwitted Olenna Tyrell. But, here's the thing: the only mistake Olenna made was in believing that Cersei has the faintest clue of how stupid an idea what she just did is.
I cannot see any victory for Cersei that comes from this being anything other than phyrric. She has created an uncontrollable monster in the Sparrows, and the only reason she doesn't see how terrible an idea it is is because for this briefest moment, the High Sparrow is happy to work with her. However, she has just set the precedent for them to apprehend no less than the Queen if it so pleases them.
If Margaery ends up imprisoned (or worse), I suspect it will be roughly 5 minutes after that they take Tommen and Cersei into custody.
(staying out of the final scene, because I'm not sure there's much else to say other than ugh)
posted by tocts at 7:44 PM on May 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
I mean, I'm sure she thinks she's just been super smart for having outwitted Olenna Tyrell. But, here's the thing: the only mistake Olenna made was in believing that Cersei has the faintest clue of how stupid an idea what she just did is.
I cannot see any victory for Cersei that comes from this being anything other than phyrric. She has created an uncontrollable monster in the Sparrows, and the only reason she doesn't see how terrible an idea it is is because for this briefest moment, the High Sparrow is happy to work with her. However, she has just set the precedent for them to apprehend no less than the Queen if it so pleases them.
If Margaery ends up imprisoned (or worse), I suspect it will be roughly 5 minutes after that they take Tommen and Cersei into custody.
(staying out of the final scene, because I'm not sure there's much else to say other than ugh)
posted by tocts at 7:44 PM on May 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Grandma Tyrell will probably bring up Cersei's relationship with her brother and won't that interesting!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:51 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:51 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am clinging onto the glimmer of hope that they're setting Sansa up for a righteous revenge plot against Ramsay.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 8:01 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 8:01 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh, and did anyone else laugh out loud when Lancel was telling Littlefinger about all the changes that the Sparrows were making in King's Landing and Littlefinger was all, "That's nice/lol whatevs."
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 8:03 PM on May 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 8:03 PM on May 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
I am clinging onto the glimmer of hope that they're setting Sansa up for a righteous revenge plot against Ramsay.
I mean, that's what they've been doing since they announced the betrothal, but it didn't make the final scene any less... ugh.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:09 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I mean, that's what they've been doing since they announced the betrothal, but it didn't make the final scene any less... ugh.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:09 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
If Margaery ends up imprisoned (or worse), I suspect it will be roughly 5 minutes after that they take Tommen and Cersei into custody.
I assume at that point the Kingsguard will stop waiting for an order that never comes.
How long before Kings Landing starts running out of food when Highgarden stops sending it, I wonder? Even the Sparrows need to eat.
posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I assume at that point the Kingsguard will stop waiting for an order that never comes.
How long before Kings Landing starts running out of food when Highgarden stops sending it, I wonder? Even the Sparrows need to eat.
posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Cersei is so much dumber than she thinks she is.
posted by Justinian at 8:21 PM on May 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:21 PM on May 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Right. Well. All that happened.
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 9:11 PM on May 17, 2015
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 9:11 PM on May 17, 2015
Guess again!
posted by fuse theorem at 9:18 PM on May 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by fuse theorem at 9:18 PM on May 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yet again we get the horrified reaction to a scene and not the scene itself. It's not better that way, HBO.
W2G on Sana vs. Myranda, but it still got to her.
I'm liking Jorah+Tyrion roadtrip more than I thought. Brains and brawn. And I was waiting for Olenna to tell Cersei that her father did the letter-writing thing too.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:39 PM on May 17, 2015
W2G on Sana vs. Myranda, but it still got to her.
I'm liking Jorah+Tyrion roadtrip more than I thought. Brains and brawn. And I was waiting for Olenna to tell Cersei that her father did the letter-writing thing too.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:39 PM on May 17, 2015
I enjoy the fuck out of GoT (loved the books that came before GRRM hit his writer's block) and really enjoyed this episode. I appreciate that HBO is providing TV that I find entertaining that is geared towards an adult audience. It's a really, really important balance to the literally hundreds of shows on television where words are beeped over, gestures are blurred out, and a bad person is someone who doesn't share their cookies.
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 10:04 PM on May 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 10:04 PM on May 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
When Sansa told Myranda, "You can't frighten me," it was the first time in the whole series where I really thought Sansa said anything worthwhile. And of course she has to pay for that before the episode is even over because ugh.
The whole thing with the Dorne kingsguard catching the sandsnakes and Jamie and Bronn in disguise played like an old-fashioned Mel Brooks movie or something. All the characters were just like, Yeah we've all seen this happen in movies so we know how it's gonna go, aren't we rascals? Really weird scene for this show.
posted by dogwalker at 10:18 PM on May 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
The whole thing with the Dorne kingsguard catching the sandsnakes and Jamie and Bronn in disguise played like an old-fashioned Mel Brooks movie or something. All the characters were just like, Yeah we've all seen this happen in movies so we know how it's gonna go, aren't we rascals? Really weird scene for this show.
posted by dogwalker at 10:18 PM on May 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Quotes from the episode:
Sansa to Miranda: “I’m Sansa Stark of Winterfell. This is my home and you can’t frighten me.”
Jorah to Tyrion: “I was a cynic just like you. And then I saw a girl step into a great fire with three stone eggs. When the fire burned out I thought I’d find her blackened bones. Instead, I saw her, Daenerys, alive and unhurt holding her baby dragons. Have you ever heard baby dragons singing? It’s hard to be a cynic after that."
Slaver: "The dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant!"
Cersei: “Ah yes, the famously tart-tongued Queen of Thorns."
Olenna: “And the famous tart, Queen Cersei."
Cersei: “As for your veiled threats…"
Olenna: “What veil?"
Tyrion to Jorah: “The Targaryens are famously insane. What if she conquers the world, then what? A thousand years of peace and prosperity?”
posted by zarq at 11:43 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sansa to Miranda: “I’m Sansa Stark of Winterfell. This is my home and you can’t frighten me.”
Jorah to Tyrion: “I was a cynic just like you. And then I saw a girl step into a great fire with three stone eggs. When the fire burned out I thought I’d find her blackened bones. Instead, I saw her, Daenerys, alive and unhurt holding her baby dragons. Have you ever heard baby dragons singing? It’s hard to be a cynic after that."
Slaver: "The dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant!"
Cersei: “Ah yes, the famously tart-tongued Queen of Thorns."
Olenna: “And the famous tart, Queen Cersei."
Cersei: “As for your veiled threats…"
Olenna: “What veil?"
Tyrion to Jorah: “The Targaryens are famously insane. What if she conquers the world, then what? A thousand years of peace and prosperity?”
posted by zarq at 11:43 PM on May 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
What veil was my literal lol moment for the episode.
posted by corb at 11:46 PM on May 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:46 PM on May 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Diana Rigg FTW
posted by zarq at 12:19 AM on May 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by zarq at 12:19 AM on May 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
I forgot:
Slaver: "It'll be a dwarf sized cock."
Tyrion: "Guess again."
Bronn: "I like to improvise."
Jamie: "That explains the Golden Hand."
posted by zarq at 12:19 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Slaver: "It'll be a dwarf sized cock."
Tyrion: "Guess again."
Bronn: "I like to improvise."
Jamie: "That explains the Golden Hand."
posted by zarq at 12:19 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
+1 for the face museum.
-1 for the Keystone Cops shennans in the gardens. The whole desert snakes crew is so silly!
Really looking forward to Theon's revenge. Really hope we don't have to look at Ramsey's face for much longer :(
posted by wemayfreeze at 1:25 AM on May 18, 2015
-1 for the Keystone Cops shennans in the gardens. The whole desert snakes crew is so silly!
Really looking forward to Theon's revenge. Really hope we don't have to look at Ramsey's face for much longer :(
posted by wemayfreeze at 1:25 AM on May 18, 2015
Yeah those Sand Snakes are a bit of a joke. What was even the point of that?
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:01 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:01 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
My life-long crush on Diana Rigg continues.
posted by octothorpe at 3:20 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 3:20 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm so sick of the misery-porn Sansa stuff. I feel so foolish in thinking/hoping we were going to get something different and new for her. 4 straight seasons of it wasn't enough..?
The showrunners and writers may be surprised to discover it's not actually fun, interesting, worthwhile or enjoyable to spend every second of a character's storyline cringing and wondering if NOW is the time she gets raped.
I'm about ready to tap out on this show for that and other similar reasons.
posted by pseudonymph at 3:46 AM on May 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
The showrunners and writers may be surprised to discover it's not actually fun, interesting, worthwhile or enjoyable to spend every second of a character's storyline cringing and wondering if NOW is the time she gets raped.
I'm about ready to tap out on this show for that and other similar reasons.
posted by pseudonymph at 3:46 AM on May 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Giant irritating plot hole: Why wouldn't a squire know about his lord's birthmark? They dress the lords! This has even been played for comedy with Brienne and Pod.
posted by gingerest at 3:47 AM on May 18, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 3:47 AM on May 18, 2015 [33 favorites]
I assume at that point the Kingsguard will stop waiting for an order that never comes.
Maybe, but I think it's past the point of mattering. The Sparrows are now numerous, and basically everywhere (and armed, even in the King's presence). Good fighters or not, exactly how many Kingsguard are there? Do they even stand a chance against a horde of zealots? I have doubts.
How long before Kings Landing starts running out of food when Highgarden stops sending it, I wonder? Even the Sparrows need to eat.
This is the other thing that I had meant to mention, and ties right into why I think Cersei is slitting her own throat whether she knows it or not. To steal a line of questioning from Tyrion, if you assume Cersei gets her fondest wishes here: Margaery is gone, the Tyrells are shut out of power, and then ... what? What's the next step?
As near as I can tell, the actual answer is a choice between:
"... we get taken into custody by the Sparrows and get executed for incest / illegitimacy."
"... we starve to death as winter descends and Highgarden ceases providing any food to King's Landing."
"... we get overthrown by someone backed by the Iron Bank since without the Tyrells we no longer have any money to pay them."
-1 for the Keystone Cops shennans in the gardens. The whole desert snakes crew is so silly!
Yeah, as much as I am enjoying some of the quipping between Jaime and Bronn, the whole Dorne subplot is ridiculously bad. That and the Jorah/Tyrion road trip are by far the biggest wastes of time this season. I could take 1 episode, maybe 2, on the strength of the characters involved, but at this point it's just such transparent padding that I'm so done with it.
posted by tocts at 4:37 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe, but I think it's past the point of mattering. The Sparrows are now numerous, and basically everywhere (and armed, even in the King's presence). Good fighters or not, exactly how many Kingsguard are there? Do they even stand a chance against a horde of zealots? I have doubts.
How long before Kings Landing starts running out of food when Highgarden stops sending it, I wonder? Even the Sparrows need to eat.
This is the other thing that I had meant to mention, and ties right into why I think Cersei is slitting her own throat whether she knows it or not. To steal a line of questioning from Tyrion, if you assume Cersei gets her fondest wishes here: Margaery is gone, the Tyrells are shut out of power, and then ... what? What's the next step?
As near as I can tell, the actual answer is a choice between:
"... we get taken into custody by the Sparrows and get executed for incest / illegitimacy."
"... we starve to death as winter descends and Highgarden ceases providing any food to King's Landing."
"... we get overthrown by someone backed by the Iron Bank since without the Tyrells we no longer have any money to pay them."
-1 for the Keystone Cops shennans in the gardens. The whole desert snakes crew is so silly!
Yeah, as much as I am enjoying some of the quipping between Jaime and Bronn, the whole Dorne subplot is ridiculously bad. That and the Jorah/Tyrion road trip are by far the biggest wastes of time this season. I could take 1 episode, maybe 2, on the strength of the characters involved, but at this point it's just such transparent padding that I'm so done with it.
posted by tocts at 4:37 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Diana Rigg is such a delight.
Also, glad to see HBO is keeping up with its quota of rape = GRITTY scenes. Because it makes things REALISTIC and SERIOUS, unlike dragons and zombies and a magical ice wall.
Nice to see some more actual people of color, though. And the line about the cock merchant sounded like something out of Oglaf.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:55 AM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
Also, glad to see HBO is keeping up with its quota of rape = GRITTY scenes. Because it makes things REALISTIC and SERIOUS, unlike dragons and zombies and a magical ice wall.
Nice to see some more actual people of color, though. And the line about the cock merchant sounded like something out of Oglaf.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:55 AM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm so sick of the misery-porn Sansa stuff. I feel so foolish in thinking/hoping we were going to get something different and new for her. 4 straight seasons of it wasn't enough..?
Amen. The ridiculously slow development of the Sansa story (and the Arya story, and the Tyrion story, and the Daenarys story, [not to mention the absurdly convenient coincidences of the Jaime story]) have me convinced for the first time the writers don't know what the hell they're doing. The unnecessary graphic rape scene didn't help.
I'm about ready to tap out on this show
Yeah, me too. What a dismal disappointment of a season so far.
posted by mediareport at 5:11 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Amen. The ridiculously slow development of the Sansa story (and the Arya story, and the Tyrion story, and the Daenarys story, [not to mention the absurdly convenient coincidences of the Jaime story]) have me convinced for the first time the writers don't know what the hell they're doing. The unnecessary graphic rape scene didn't help.
I'm about ready to tap out on this show
Yeah, me too. What a dismal disappointment of a season so far.
posted by mediareport at 5:11 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I like it, except for the crappy Sand Snakes stuff. But I knew that would be crappy going in.
posted by Justinian at 5:20 AM on May 18, 2015
posted by Justinian at 5:20 AM on May 18, 2015
Soooo....
Walk through the gates of Dorne. Turn right, you're in the market square. Turn left and.... you're in the completely unguarded grounds of the palace garden? How convenient!
(It reminded me of the scene in Age of Ultron where Banner shows up to rescue the kidnapped Natasha, whom Ultron has secreted away in the depths of his evil robot factory. What'd he do? Knock on the door and claim to be the pizza guy? "Land shark!" Jeez.)
And while we know Ramsay Bolton is going to die in some spectacularly horrific fashion, there's just no death awful enough to balance those scales. The implication is that Theon/Reek will regain himself and get all stabby with it, so of course that won't happen.
Worst episode of the season so far, though I now harbor dim hopes that Bronn will end up on the Iron Throne, because why the fuck not.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:32 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Walk through the gates of Dorne. Turn right, you're in the market square. Turn left and.... you're in the completely unguarded grounds of the palace garden? How convenient!
(It reminded me of the scene in Age of Ultron where Banner shows up to rescue the kidnapped Natasha, whom Ultron has secreted away in the depths of his evil robot factory. What'd he do? Knock on the door and claim to be the pizza guy? "Land shark!" Jeez.)
And while we know Ramsay Bolton is going to die in some spectacularly horrific fashion, there's just no death awful enough to balance those scales. The implication is that Theon/Reek will regain himself and get all stabby with it, so of course that won't happen.
Worst episode of the season so far, though I now harbor dim hopes that Bronn will end up on the Iron Throne, because why the fuck not.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:32 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
It will be truly stupid if the writers have Theo save Sansa instead of Sansa finally developing some agency of her own after 4-and-a-half fucking seasons.
posted by mediareport at 5:47 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 5:47 AM on May 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
It will be truly stupid if the writers have Theo save Sansa instead of Sansa finally developing some agency of her own after 4-and-a-half fucking seasons.
Sure, but it's clear that Sansa is developing, as seen by her response to the Myranda. It's just a question of if she'll develop further after being stuck with Ramsay.
Plus, I can't imagine she's going to chummy with Baelish after all this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:09 AM on May 18, 2015
Sure, but it's clear that Sansa is developing, as seen by her response to the Myranda. It's just a question of if she'll develop further after being stuck with Ramsay.
Plus, I can't imagine she's going to chummy with Baelish after all this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:09 AM on May 18, 2015
+1 for the face museum.
This was the last place I expected a Futurama reference, but there it is.
posted by tilde at 6:12 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
This was the last place I expected a Futurama reference, but there it is.
posted by tilde at 6:12 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Theory:
What if Sansa was pretending to more distraught about having sex with Ramsay than she really felt?
- Sansa knows Ramsay is a sadistic monster based off of how he's "trained" Theon and his control over him as shown during dinner. She can't convincingly match Ramsay's craziness like Margaery did with Joffrey.
- Most importantly, Sansa has played the "I'm so powerless and innocent" card before when her Aunt Lysa threatened her back at the Vale. By letting Ramsay think he is in control of her, she'll be more able to manipulate him in the future.
Yes, there was real fear in Sansa's eyes, but maybe you could have interpreted her expression with her back turned against Ramsay as stoicism and possibly sadness about what she was going to have to do (ie: play the powerless role while having unwanted sex with Ramsay).
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 6:24 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
What if Sansa was pretending to more distraught about having sex with Ramsay than she really felt?
- Sansa knows Ramsay is a sadistic monster based off of how he's "trained" Theon and his control over him as shown during dinner. She can't convincingly match Ramsay's craziness like Margaery did with Joffrey.
- Most importantly, Sansa has played the "I'm so powerless and innocent" card before when her Aunt Lysa threatened her back at the Vale. By letting Ramsay think he is in control of her, she'll be more able to manipulate him in the future.
Yes, there was real fear in Sansa's eyes, but maybe you could have interpreted her expression with her back turned against Ramsay as stoicism and possibly sadness about what she was going to have to do (ie: play the powerless role while having unwanted sex with Ramsay).
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 6:24 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think Sansa knew that the wedding night was not going to be fun - Ramsay had already demonstrated himself to be a sadist. I think her turmoil in that scene was partially about Ramsay, but also largely about Theon and what his presence there meant about Ramsay - that he wasn't just an accidental monster, but an intentional monster - that she basically travelled thousands of miles and ran from Kings Landing only to ultimately find herself with another Joffrey.
posted by corb at 6:48 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:48 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yet again we get the horrified reaction to a scene and not the scene itself. It's not better that way, HBO.
If this is in reference to the final scene, I respectfully disagree. I thought it was way more effective just to hear Sansa's tortured cries than to see it actually happening. Plus, this way we don't end up with people weirdly trying to compare to when Daenerys got bent over by Khal Drogo on their wedding night.
Grandma Tyrell will probably bring up Cersei's relationship with her brother and won't that interesting!
But doesn't everyone pretty much already know? Who would she tell? For sure though, some huge payback is coming unless Cersei deals with her first. Cersei is feeling all smug in the moment but Olenna plays a long(er) game.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:55 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
If this is in reference to the final scene, I respectfully disagree. I thought it was way more effective just to hear Sansa's tortured cries than to see it actually happening. Plus, this way we don't end up with people weirdly trying to compare to when Daenerys got bent over by Khal Drogo on their wedding night.
Grandma Tyrell will probably bring up Cersei's relationship with her brother and won't that interesting!
But doesn't everyone pretty much already know? Who would she tell? For sure though, some huge payback is coming unless Cersei deals with her first. Cersei is feeling all smug in the moment but Olenna plays a long(er) game.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:55 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
But doesn't everyone pretty much already know? Who would she tell?
I think it's a secret that a number of people have guessed or heard rumors about, but if it widely known, then people would be calling Tommen a bastard usurper on the throne. It would give far more legitimacy to Stannis' claim to the throne, at least, among many minds in Westeros.
posted by inturnaround at 7:21 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think it's a secret that a number of people have guessed or heard rumors about, but if it widely known, then people would be calling Tommen a bastard usurper on the throne. It would give far more legitimacy to Stannis' claim to the throne, at least, among many minds in Westeros.
posted by inturnaround at 7:21 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Bronn would make the best neighbor ever.
I'm a little dense today, and/or a bit in shock from the final scene, but can someone elaborate on this one? I like Bronn and all, but what makes him a particularly good neighbor this episode?
Grandma Tyrell will probably bring up Cersei's relationship with her brother and won't that interesting!
I'm really surprised that ex-Lovely Locks Lancel Lannister hasn't confessed to the High Sparrow about that one yet. Maybe the High Sparrow is playing Cersei until he strips all support from poor, sweet, stupid Tommen? Knock down the Tyrels first (hoping they don't mind all that and still send food to King's Landing), then go after Cersei, so Tommen has no one but the Sparrows to support him and guide him forward.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:30 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm a little dense today, and/or a bit in shock from the final scene, but can someone elaborate on this one? I like Bronn and all, but what makes him a particularly good neighbor this episode?
Grandma Tyrell will probably bring up Cersei's relationship with her brother and won't that interesting!
I'm really surprised that ex-Lovely Locks Lancel Lannister hasn't confessed to the High Sparrow about that one yet. Maybe the High Sparrow is playing Cersei until he strips all support from poor, sweet, stupid Tommen? Knock down the Tyrels first (hoping they don't mind all that and still send food to King's Landing), then go after Cersei, so Tommen has no one but the Sparrows to support him and guide him forward.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:30 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm really surprised that ex-Lovely Locks Lancel Lannister hasn't confessed to the High Sparrow about that one yet.
Who's to say he hasn't? Note how the High Sparrow set up Margeary, the Queen? That sets a clear precedent to take the Queen Mum to trial also.
I'm confused why Tommen doesn't order guards to take Margeary back.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:36 AM on May 18, 2015
Who's to say he hasn't? Note how the High Sparrow set up Margeary, the Queen? That sets a clear precedent to take the Queen Mum to trial also.
I'm confused why Tommen doesn't order guards to take Margeary back.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:36 AM on May 18, 2015
>> I'm confused why Tommen doesn't order guards to take Margeary back.
It seemed to me like he was simply stunned at what was going on. Everything happened pretty quickly, and I wonder if he might have been a little confused about where the line was between his power and the High Sparrow's authority. I can't imagine that he was aware of Cersei's motives.
posted by JohnFredra at 7:49 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
It seemed to me like he was simply stunned at what was going on. Everything happened pretty quickly, and I wonder if he might have been a little confused about where the line was between his power and the High Sparrow's authority. I can't imagine that he was aware of Cersei's motives.
posted by JohnFredra at 7:49 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
He also backed down from the Faith Militant when he went to see the High Sparrow after Loras was first taken. He's not one to use force, because I don't think he thinks of the King's Guard as his force to order about. I really don't think he was trained to be a king at all, with all the focus going to Joff.
Theory: What if Sansa was pretending to more distraught about having sex with Ramsay than she really felt?
Variant theory: what if Sansa and Ramsey were faking the whole rape to fuck with Theon as a way to get back at him for murdering Sansa's brothers? (BTW: does Ramsey know they weren't really killed?) Then Theon can snap and attack Ramsey, and Ramsey probably kills him on the spot, so Sansa has one less foe to put down.
This is what I'm thinking for now, to make that final scene less gratuitous for myself.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:56 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Theory: What if Sansa was pretending to more distraught about having sex with Ramsay than she really felt?
Variant theory: what if Sansa and Ramsey were faking the whole rape to fuck with Theon as a way to get back at him for murdering Sansa's brothers? (BTW: does Ramsey know they weren't really killed?) Then Theon can snap and attack Ramsey, and Ramsey probably kills him on the spot, so Sansa has one less foe to put down.
This is what I'm thinking for now, to make that final scene less gratuitous for myself.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:56 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
(BTW: does Ramsey know they weren't really killed?)
Ramsey knows. He got the confession out of Theon during the fake rescue mission right before revealing that Theon was on his way back to tortureville. I can't remember if Roose knows though.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:02 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ramsey knows. He got the confession out of Theon during the fake rescue mission right before revealing that Theon was on his way back to tortureville. I can't remember if Roose knows though.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:02 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Roose knows, but the Bolton's don't know if the story is true or if the kids are still alive.
Not that it'll matter to them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on May 18, 2015
Not that it'll matter to them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on May 18, 2015
Ah, right. Thanks!
Back to King's Landing and Tommen's inaction in the face of the Faith Militant: I realize that Cersei still holds some power, as Littlefinger told Lockless Lannister that he had urgent business with the Queen Mother, and that made the young militant stand down, despite the "flesh peddler" telling him they both "peddled fantasies," which is generally the sort of remark that could make a religious fanatic react.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:11 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Back to King's Landing and Tommen's inaction in the face of the Faith Militant: I realize that Cersei still holds some power, as Littlefinger told Lockless Lannister that he had urgent business with the Queen Mother, and that made the young militant stand down, despite the "flesh peddler" telling him they both "peddled fantasies," which is generally the sort of remark that could make a religious fanatic react.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:11 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
For a minute there I thought Arya was going to flip out and leave the Faceless Men. I'm glad to see she passed Stage 1 successfully.
And shame on me, I really thought Sansa would not get raped. It's hard for me to say whose death will be more satisfying, Ramsey's or Cersei's.
posted by GrapeApiary at 8:25 AM on May 18, 2015
And shame on me, I really thought Sansa would not get raped. It's hard for me to say whose death will be more satisfying, Ramsey's or Cersei's.
posted by GrapeApiary at 8:25 AM on May 18, 2015
At least the bath scene didn't play out as I imagined it would:
Sansa: What do you want?
Myranda: I'm here to draw your bath ... and draw your blood!
I think in cliched movie lines (and song lyrics) more often than I'd like to admit.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sansa: What do you want?
Myranda: I'm here to draw your bath ... and draw your blood!
I think in cliched movie lines (and song lyrics) more often than I'd like to admit.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mirror scenes: Myranda washing Sansa's hair :: Arya washing the corpse's hair.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 8:40 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 8:40 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Good catch. There are a lot of interesting mirrored scenery, dialog, and actions. It was interesting to see that called out in the "Previously on GoT" clips, with Tyrion talking to Jeor Mormont (Tyrion's hair is so short and so clean!), and then his time with Jorah. Even though I binged on the series to get up to speed for season 5, I forgot that parallel until rewatching that clip.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:13 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by filthy light thief at 9:13 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
-1 for the Keystone Cops shennans in the gardens. The whole desert snakes crew is so silly!
Yeah, I was really looking forward to seeing Dorne this season after our previous discussions about Dornish culture, but it's turned out to be the biggest disappointment of the season.
At the end of the fight it looked like either Jaime or Bronn got a nasty cut on the arm, and I think it was from the spear. If Obara uses poison like her father did, then whichever one of them got cut might have just been poisoned with the same stuff the Mountain was poisoned with.
posted by homunculus at 9:58 AM on May 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I was really looking forward to seeing Dorne this season after our previous discussions about Dornish culture, but it's turned out to be the biggest disappointment of the season.
At the end of the fight it looked like either Jaime or Bronn got a nasty cut on the arm, and I think it was from the spear. If Obara uses poison like her father did, then whichever one of them got cut might have just been poisoned with the same stuff the Mountain was poisoned with.
posted by homunculus at 9:58 AM on May 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
That was Bronn.
posted by GrapeApiary at 10:02 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by GrapeApiary at 10:02 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
While Lannister rule was certainly doomed at the moment of Tywin's death, who would have thought that Cersei would seal their fate so quickly? The moment she felt threatened by her son's Queen -- within a single goddamn day of the wedding -- she launches a full-scale nuclear attack on, basically, the very ground she herself stands on. Overreact much?
Really the moment that Tommen stood in front of the Sparrows and and they defied him to his face, while behind him the ordinary folk hissed "bastard" and "abomination" is the moment Lannister rule ended. The trial and everything that follows is just details.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Really the moment that Tommen stood in front of the Sparrows and and they defied him to his face, while behind him the ordinary folk hissed "bastard" and "abomination" is the moment Lannister rule ended. The trial and everything that follows is just details.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:34 AM on May 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
What about when the public rioted (S02E06), killed the high septon and Sansa almost got raped? That felt like a significant tipping point, and the only different I see from then to now is that there wasn't another organized, armed force withing the city walls then, just a lot of hungry, angry people.
Cersei never gave a shit for the dirty, huddled masses, but the gold cloaks held enough clout in the city to keep the masses from putting her head on a spike. And the gold cloaks were for sale to the highest bidder, and I'm not really sure they aren't now. The Tyrells could pull a power move like Littlefinger did when he (figuratively) stabbed Nedd Stark in the back, but buying swords within the walls of King's Landing a move that is probably too bold for even Olenna Tyrell.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:53 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Cersei never gave a shit for the dirty, huddled masses, but the gold cloaks held enough clout in the city to keep the masses from putting her head on a spike. And the gold cloaks were for sale to the highest bidder, and I'm not really sure they aren't now. The Tyrells could pull a power move like Littlefinger did when he (figuratively) stabbed Nedd Stark in the back, but buying swords within the walls of King's Landing a move that is probably too bold for even Olenna Tyrell.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:53 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ok, let's play a game of Cersei-is-not-galactically-stupid. What could her possible end game plans be for the Sparrows/Faith Militant?
Ok, she manages to destroy the Tyrells. Good for her I guess. But then what? Does she expect the Kingsguard to be able to neutralize the Faith Militant when they turn on her? Does she think she can just kill the High Sparrow and they would dissolve? Does she think she can keep bribing the High Sparrow (with what? she's given up all of her power chips AFAICT) so he ignores the whole incest begotten bastard king thing?
Does she think that the High Sparrow doesn't know? Like, somehow she still believes that the secret that Stannis Baratheon has been shouting for the hilltops for what must be literally years now is still somehow underwraps?
What could possibly be going on in her head?
posted by sparklemotion at 10:54 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ok, she manages to destroy the Tyrells. Good for her I guess. But then what? Does she expect the Kingsguard to be able to neutralize the Faith Militant when they turn on her? Does she think she can just kill the High Sparrow and they would dissolve? Does she think she can keep bribing the High Sparrow (with what? she's given up all of her power chips AFAICT) so he ignores the whole incest begotten bastard king thing?
Does she think that the High Sparrow doesn't know? Like, somehow she still believes that the secret that Stannis Baratheon has been shouting for the hilltops for what must be literally years now is still somehow underwraps?
What could possibly be going on in her head?
posted by sparklemotion at 10:54 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ok, let's play a game of Cersei-is-not-galactically-stupid.
No, that's an impossible game. The characters is incredibly petty and short-sighted. Tywin is definitely in the running for worst father of the century.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:03 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
No, that's an impossible game. The characters is incredibly petty and short-sighted. Tywin is definitely in the running for worst father of the century.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:03 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
let's play a game of Cersei-is-not-galactically-stupid.
Cersei is extremely short-sighted and doesn't understand Varys' sellsword riddle.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:06 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Cersei is extremely short-sighted and doesn't understand Varys' sellsword riddle.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:06 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think Cersei fundamentally does not understand faith. She thinks the High Septon is just somehow this guy playing a power game, who has latched onto a swell of feeling to become powerful. She thinks that him and her are best buds 4eva, that she protects him and he protects her and she is safe.
I think it's also important to remember that the common people may hate Tommen, but they LOVE Margaery. Because she's been going into the orphanages and feeding the poor and doing all kinds of stuff to build up her powerbase. I'm 99% certain that Margaery would never have been touched if not for Cersei.
posted by corb at 11:06 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think it's also important to remember that the common people may hate Tommen, but they LOVE Margaery. Because she's been going into the orphanages and feeding the poor and doing all kinds of stuff to build up her powerbase. I'm 99% certain that Margaery would never have been touched if not for Cersei.
posted by corb at 11:06 AM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
She probably thinks that the Faith Militant can't rule even one Kingdom without her and Tommen to provide legitimacy, even if only as figureheads tolerated and propped up by them. That she would find this preferable to being smirked at by Margaery is a little baffling. At least with Margaery exerting some power it would still be her son and her descendents that would rule. Now all bets are off, they'll live from day to day at the sufferance of bloodthirsty fanatics.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:07 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:07 AM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Faith Militant weren't part of the fortune she received from Maggy as a teenager:
posted by filthy light thief at 11:23 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
CERSEI: But I will be queen?And she's been on the look-out for the elements of that fortune since she was queen, more so now with Margaery on the scene. Cersei doesn't see the various ways Margery can still "cast her down." It's like watching a rather basic chess player gloat over obvious moves that better them now and maybe the next round, but ultimately set them up for a crushing defeat in 20 different ways.
MAGGY: Oh yes, you’ll be queen. For a time. In comes another. Younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:23 AM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Something interesting I just thought of - of course that seems to be telegraphing Margaery pretty obviously. But you know who's also young and beautiful? Myrcella, also a claimant to the throne, madly in love with and engaged to Trystane of Dorne. What does Cersei hold dear? Her children, and Jaime - which Dorne now holds in custody.
posted by corb at 11:30 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:30 AM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Daenerys Targaryen is also younger and more beautiful.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:16 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sparklemotion at 12:16 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
It would kind of be hilariously just if she spent all this effort on Margaery which only left her vulnerable to complete defeat to the real younger queen.
posted by corb at 12:37 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by corb at 12:37 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Geez guys, Cersei is pretty beautiful. I don't think there's a unanimous ranking of the hotties of Westeros.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:43 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:43 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
It would kind of be hilariously just if she spent all this effort on Margaery which only left her vulnerable to complete defeat to the real younger queen.
Isn't that pretty much the upshot of any story that involves a character trying to fight against prophecy? Here... I found the TV Trope about it.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:44 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Isn't that pretty much the upshot of any story that involves a character trying to fight against prophecy? Here... I found the TV Trope about it.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:44 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
sparklemotion, my thoughts exactly. If it truly is a fate she cannot avoid, Margaery could be the primary Pretty Successor, but if Cersei does enough to ruin Margaery's reputation or whatnot (or even get her killed), the Gods (or show writers) could shift things so Myrcella fulfilled the prophecy. Then Cersei's suffering at the hands of the inevitable would be all the more miserable (and all the better for ratings and internet discussions).
posted by filthy light thief at 1:15 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 1:15 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
BTW, I would love to see what Cersei was doodling when she was talking to Olenna.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:16 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 1:16 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Bit late to the party as usual but, in agreement with everyone; bergh.
On a happier note myself and the mrs have been breathing "haibeghyurpahdan" at eachother for about three hours now. I caught myself literally grimacing from discomfort at the whole Jewel of the Nile middle act, what in the jesus?
posted by Iteki at 1:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
On a happier note myself and the mrs have been breathing "haibeghyurpahdan" at eachother for about three hours now. I caught myself literally grimacing from discomfort at the whole Jewel of the Nile middle act, what in the jesus?
posted by Iteki at 1:23 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
It could be argued that Sansa fits the "younger/more beautiful" of the prophecy, too. Or any number of others--including Jon Snow (sorry Kit Harrington)! At this point I really only exclude Margaery because of how certain Cersei is about her. I'm definitely looking forward to Cersei finding out how wrong her guess was.
posted by tyrantkitty at 1:35 PM on May 18, 2015
posted by tyrantkitty at 1:35 PM on May 18, 2015
Geez guys, Cersei is pretty beautiful. I don't think there's a unanimous ranking of the hotties of Westeros.
I think people are just saying Cersei is looking for this prophecy to be fulfilled, and there are any number of candidates that could "fit" as her enemy/successor/downfall. This is imagining through her eyes, as she sees the world around her. She's petty and insecure and looking to knock down enemies before they knock her down.
I hated seeing her beat Olenna last night and am really hoping it's a short-term win and that Olenna comes back with some brilliant masterstroke very soon.
posted by JenMarie at 1:43 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Cersei "beat" Olenna by playing every card in her damn hand. I don't think Olenna is even going to have to pull an ace out of her sleeve to get around this one.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:54 PM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by sparklemotion at 1:54 PM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
I hope you're right!
I caught myself literally grimacing from discomfort at the whole Jewel of the Nile middle act, what in the jesus?
This made me laugh. It was a bit preposterous (especially as someone pointed out how easy the access to the royal garden was). But I'm really forgiving with shows I like so I'm not too bothered, just hoping our next Dorne interlude has a bit more gravity.
posted by JenMarie at 2:01 PM on May 18, 2015
I caught myself literally grimacing from discomfort at the whole Jewel of the Nile middle act, what in the jesus?
This made me laugh. It was a bit preposterous (especially as someone pointed out how easy the access to the royal garden was). But I'm really forgiving with shows I like so I'm not too bothered, just hoping our next Dorne interlude has a bit more gravity.
posted by JenMarie at 2:01 PM on May 18, 2015
I caught myself literally grimacing from discomfort at the whole Jewel of the Nile middle act, what in the jesus?
I actually laughed out loud at Ellaria just standing there looking back and forth when the yellowcoats came to arrest her. Like, did they run out of dramaturgy budget and couldn't afford to have someone figure out something for her to do? Why would she still have been waiting down there? Wouldn't it have been smarter to be by Doran's side or something to keep herself from being immediately implicated?dram
posted by sparklemotion at 2:08 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I actually laughed out loud at Ellaria just standing there looking back and forth when the yellowcoats came to arrest her. Like, did they run out of dramaturgy budget and couldn't afford to have someone figure out something for her to do? Why would she still have been waiting down there? Wouldn't it have been smarter to be by Doran's side or something to keep herself from being immediately implicated?dram
posted by sparklemotion at 2:08 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ok, let's play a game of Cersei-is-not-galactically-stupid.
I do not think this is a game you are going to win!
posted by Justinian at 2:25 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I do not think this is a game you are going to win!
posted by Justinian at 2:25 PM on May 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Cersei beating Olenna was the equivalent of a rookie fighter throwing their sword to beat two handed Jaime Lannister. She only won because it was inconceivable she would fuck herself so badly for petty bullshit.
posted by corb at 2:29 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:29 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I hated seeing her beat Olenna last night and am really hoping it's a short-term win and that Olenna comes back with some brilliant masterstroke very soon.
Nobody, including Cersei and Olenna, really grasps how incredibly, breath-takingly dumb it was to arm the Faith Militant; more importantly, though, nobody involved really knows what to make of the Faith Militant at this point. Olenna can deal with noble houses, but it's been before anyone alive on the show now was born that there was this separate, autonomous power structure. Cersei thinks she is using it, but of course the audience can see that there are some flaws in that plan. Look at how the Kingsguard reacted when they took Margaery away: they didn't quite know what to do, just like when they were standing behind Tommen at the Sept and the Faith Militant defied him. They're an unknown quantity, but the characters are just now realizing how much they don't understand them; see how Olenna and Margaery sort of dumbly consent to the trial process. They obviously have no idea what's going on.
posted by clockzero at 2:59 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Nobody, including Cersei and Olenna, really grasps how incredibly, breath-takingly dumb it was to arm the Faith Militant; more importantly, though, nobody involved really knows what to make of the Faith Militant at this point. Olenna can deal with noble houses, but it's been before anyone alive on the show now was born that there was this separate, autonomous power structure. Cersei thinks she is using it, but of course the audience can see that there are some flaws in that plan. Look at how the Kingsguard reacted when they took Margaery away: they didn't quite know what to do, just like when they were standing behind Tommen at the Sept and the Faith Militant defied him. They're an unknown quantity, but the characters are just now realizing how much they don't understand them; see how Olenna and Margaery sort of dumbly consent to the trial process. They obviously have no idea what's going on.
posted by clockzero at 2:59 PM on May 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
They're an unknown quantity, but the characters are just now realizing how much they don't understand them; see how Olenna and Margaery sort of dumbly consent to the trial process. They obviously have no idea what's going on.
That's a good point.
You would think Cersei would see how stupid and dangerous it is to undermine her own son's authority and legitimacy in this way but I think people are right when they say she is overestimating her control of the fanatics.
posted by JenMarie at 3:24 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's a good point.
You would think Cersei would see how stupid and dangerous it is to undermine her own son's authority and legitimacy in this way but I think people are right when they say she is overestimating her control of the fanatics.
posted by JenMarie at 3:24 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Pretty sure there's going to be at least one new band called Cockmerchant forming within the week.
Also yeah, the Sand Snakes are a huge disappointment. It's like they're from another show.
posted by uosuaq at 4:43 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also yeah, the Sand Snakes are a huge disappointment. It's like they're from another show.
posted by uosuaq at 4:43 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pretty sure there's going to be at least one new band called Cockmerchant forming within the week.
And see, I was actually bummed that they missed out on perhaps the only opportunity in television history to use the word "cockmonger" in dialogue as a completely neutral descriptor (i.e. a dealer in or trader of cock).
posted by tocts at 4:58 PM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
And see, I was actually bummed that they missed out on perhaps the only opportunity in television history to use the word "cockmonger" in dialogue as a completely neutral descriptor (i.e. a dealer in or trader of cock).
posted by tocts at 4:58 PM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also yeah, the Sand Snakes are a huge disappointment. It's like they're from another show.
Seconded. It feels like they're just not giving that plot enough time --- I dunno why they feel we can't get some more hangout time in Dorne, maybe they're right that they only have 6 or 7 total scenes they can devote to the whole plotline and still keep all the other tracks on course to whatever the season climax is --- but the thing is just too rushed. We need to see these people conversing, get a sense of their personalities, have them argue, talk, plan, be convinced, something that would give us some stake in them beyond "whips are cool, therefore they're awesome". We also needed there to be some event --- a ball, a ceremony, a something, it doesn't really matter what --- that would create sufficient pretext to explain why both the Sand Snakes and Jamie and Bronn chose that particular moment to attack. An emissary of the Iron Bank of Bravos is meeting with Prince Doran and he'll have most of the palace guards with him to provide security. They're throwing a party in the gardens and Prince Trystan is a lech who will obviously try and get Mrycella alone during it, so it'll be the perfect time, etc., etc. Just some reason why all these characters were in the same place at the same time. And they're not giving it to us. And it feels like they think they can't give it to us, that there just wasn't time to have a bit of cross cut exposition, a scene of the two groups casing the joint and coming up with a plan. Because on the whole the writers haven't been that incompetent, you feel like they must know what's needed but they were like, fuck it, I gotta get this done in under two pages of dialogue. It's weird.
posted by maggiepolitt at 6:22 PM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
Seconded. It feels like they're just not giving that plot enough time --- I dunno why they feel we can't get some more hangout time in Dorne, maybe they're right that they only have 6 or 7 total scenes they can devote to the whole plotline and still keep all the other tracks on course to whatever the season climax is --- but the thing is just too rushed. We need to see these people conversing, get a sense of their personalities, have them argue, talk, plan, be convinced, something that would give us some stake in them beyond "whips are cool, therefore they're awesome". We also needed there to be some event --- a ball, a ceremony, a something, it doesn't really matter what --- that would create sufficient pretext to explain why both the Sand Snakes and Jamie and Bronn chose that particular moment to attack. An emissary of the Iron Bank of Bravos is meeting with Prince Doran and he'll have most of the palace guards with him to provide security. They're throwing a party in the gardens and Prince Trystan is a lech who will obviously try and get Mrycella alone during it, so it'll be the perfect time, etc., etc. Just some reason why all these characters were in the same place at the same time. And they're not giving it to us. And it feels like they think they can't give it to us, that there just wasn't time to have a bit of cross cut exposition, a scene of the two groups casing the joint and coming up with a plan. Because on the whole the writers haven't been that incompetent, you feel like they must know what's needed but they were like, fuck it, I gotta get this done in under two pages of dialogue. It's weird.
posted by maggiepolitt at 6:22 PM on May 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
Ok, let's play a game of Cersei-is-not-galactically-stupid.
I do not think this is a game you are going to win!
posted by phearlez at 6:39 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I do not think this is a game you are going to win!
posted by phearlez at 6:39 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now I feel like theres going to be some really big twist because it just seems so obvious what is coming next with Cersei and the Sparrows.
Also, do you think that was an excuse for Littlefinger to get the Vale's men to Winterfell to join Stannis or to take Winterfell for himself?
It might be time for Sansa to go about lighting that candle sometime soon. Alot of people there are loyal to her family anyways. Maybe she takes Winterfell before either Stannis or Littlefinger get there.
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:59 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, do you think that was an excuse for Littlefinger to get the Vale's men to Winterfell to join Stannis or to take Winterfell for himself?
It might be time for Sansa to go about lighting that candle sometime soon. Alot of people there are loyal to her family anyways. Maybe she takes Winterfell before either Stannis or Littlefinger get there.
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:59 PM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Good lord, the sand snakes. It's like they were written for the Phantom Menace and cut from that movie for time.
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:03 PM on May 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:03 PM on May 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
Meesa angry about my father! Meesa get revenge!
posted by Justinian at 8:07 PM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:07 PM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Chrys watches GoT: Season 5, Episode 6 (no gross ending in this recap)
posted by homunculus at 8:12 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 8:12 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
The thing that stuck out as really off-tone to me (apart from the obviously bad final scene) was the massive storytelling fart that was Arya euthanizing the little girl. Only seconds before we had a scene with A Man smacking Arya around for lying and saying they never stop playing The Game (which you just lost), and before that was a scene with the other corpsebather telling a story and then asking Arya "So like am I lying or what?" And then this rando rocks up with his sick girl and tells the person scrubbing the floor that his sick girl needs killing, and Arya doesn't go "whoa wait a second maybe this is another one of those tests", she just straight up kills her to death. Seemed odd.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:37 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:37 PM on May 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also I wish I remembered what Hodor and Old Floppylegs were up to. Hodor killed a guy and then I think they went into a witch cave or a tree cave or something? And...was there ghosts? I don't recall. Better to have some more scenes of Ramsay being a colossal toolkit.
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:09 PM on May 18, 2015
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:09 PM on May 18, 2015
Hodor and Bran are on sabbatical with Gendry and Oberyn on the Isle of Definitely Didn't Get Our Heads Crushed And Exploded.
posted by Justinian at 9:13 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 9:13 PM on May 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm in a tunnel waiting for my assassin girls to get back. The guards approach! I look back and forth at them and stammer "N-...no!" My whole entire plot is foiled! If only I had moved out of the tunnel! Now I get to spend the rest of my life in a really short tunnel that has a wall at one end and bars at the other. Good thing I like tunnels!
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:33 PM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:33 PM on May 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
It would kind of be hilariously just if she spent all this effort on Margaery which only left her vulnerable to complete defeat to the real younger queen.
omg it's loras
posted by KathrynT at 11:40 PM on May 18, 2015 [20 favorites]
omg it's loras
posted by KathrynT at 11:40 PM on May 18, 2015 [20 favorites]
Only seconds before we had a scene with A Man smacking Arya around for lying
I could be wrong, but I had thought what A Man had been yelling at Arya was "lie", not "liar". That is to say, he was not hitting her for lying, he was hitting her for telling the truth (and exhorting her to lie, which is a crucial skill for her if a girl is to become nobody).
So, Arya lying to the little girl was in fact her demonstrating that she had understood the lesson.
Could be I misheard though.
posted by tocts at 2:54 AM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I could be wrong, but I had thought what A Man had been yelling at Arya was "lie", not "liar". That is to say, he was not hitting her for lying, he was hitting her for telling the truth (and exhorting her to lie, which is a crucial skill for her if a girl is to become nobody).
So, Arya lying to the little girl was in fact her demonstrating that she had understood the lesson.
Could be I misheard though.
posted by tocts at 2:54 AM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I preferred to interpret it as being that he was calling her a liar, because in order to become nobody, it's necessary for her to stop thinking of Arya Stark as being who she is, and her truth has to become that she's literally anyone else
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:07 AM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:07 AM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
So tell one good lie and they teach you the seekrit assassin handshake?
Cool!
"I freaking LOVE bathing corpses!"
Key to the clubhouse, please.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 3:53 AM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cool!
"I freaking LOVE bathing corpses!"
Key to the clubhouse, please.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 3:53 AM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought she was describing her background and life and mixing truth and lies and the man was able to figure out when she was lying.
One of the lies he called out was that she hated the Hound.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:12 AM on May 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
One of the lies he called out was that she hated the Hound.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:12 AM on May 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
A little late, but here's a recap from Oberyn Martell to lighten the mood.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:32 AM on May 19, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:32 AM on May 19, 2015
One of the lies he called out was that she hated the Hound.
I thought that part was very well done.
posted by Justinian at 5:17 AM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I thought that part was very well done.
posted by Justinian at 5:17 AM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I could be wrong, but I had thought what A Man had been yelling at Arya was "lie", not "liar".
Yeah, you're right, I guess I should have said "for telling lies so badly". The point still stands.
I've found the Sansa thing entering my head a few times today. This article hasn't done much to lift my hopes that her character will find some agency. Says Sophie Turner:
"You can't get on [Ramsay's] level. He's such a mentalist – there's no way of understanding his motives or his thinking," she said.
"So this season it's also her trying to figure out his intentions and trying to please him.
"I think its going to be the most challenging season for me so far, just because it's so emotional for her."
I justified her giving in to him as maybe it needs to be proved that she "laid" with her husband so that she can properly be officially his wife or whatever, and can therefore still be basically in charge after she murders him, but I think that's giving the writers too much credit. They wanted her raped and they want to inflict more torture on her for yet another season (the fifth now).
Sansa has been pushed around enough, and her character's growth has been artificially stunted by the creators. The glimmers of defiance and confidence we've seen from her recently should have shone brightly here: her character should have gained something along the line, and changed in some way, and, since a sex scene is inevitable (because she's a pretty young girl in Game of Thrones), fucked the shit out of Ramsay, and fucked some terror into him. She should have left him shaking and wounded and worried and enraptured (since he's such a "mentalist") and should have gone on to lead him around Winterfell by the balls, and then bump him off in a spectacular fashion.
But, no. "This season it's [Sansa] trying to figure out his intentions and trying to please him." What a terrible waste of a young actress who has grown so much with the role.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:31 AM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yeah, you're right, I guess I should have said "for telling lies so badly". The point still stands.
I've found the Sansa thing entering my head a few times today. This article hasn't done much to lift my hopes that her character will find some agency. Says Sophie Turner:
"You can't get on [Ramsay's] level. He's such a mentalist – there's no way of understanding his motives or his thinking," she said.
"So this season it's also her trying to figure out his intentions and trying to please him.
"I think its going to be the most challenging season for me so far, just because it's so emotional for her."
I justified her giving in to him as maybe it needs to be proved that she "laid" with her husband so that she can properly be officially his wife or whatever, and can therefore still be basically in charge after she murders him, but I think that's giving the writers too much credit. They wanted her raped and they want to inflict more torture on her for yet another season (the fifth now).
Sansa has been pushed around enough, and her character's growth has been artificially stunted by the creators. The glimmers of defiance and confidence we've seen from her recently should have shone brightly here: her character should have gained something along the line, and changed in some way, and, since a sex scene is inevitable (because she's a pretty young girl in Game of Thrones), fucked the shit out of Ramsay, and fucked some terror into him. She should have left him shaking and wounded and worried and enraptured (since he's such a "mentalist") and should have gone on to lead him around Winterfell by the balls, and then bump him off in a spectacular fashion.
But, no. "This season it's [Sansa] trying to figure out his intentions and trying to please him." What a terrible waste of a young actress who has grown so much with the role.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:31 AM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Sansa has been pushed around enough, and her character's growth has been artificially stunted by the creators. The glimmers of defiance and confidence we've seen from her recently should have shone brightly here: her character should have gained something along the line, and changed in some way, and, since a sex scene is inevitable (because she's a pretty young girl in Game of Thrones), fucked the shit out of Ramsay, and fucked some terror into him. She should have left him shaking and wounded and worried and enraptured (since he's such a "mentalist") and should have gone on to lead him around Winterfell by the balls, and then bump him off in a spectacular fashion.
That makes no sense to me. I agree that we've had glimmer of defiance and signs of growth from Sansa. She's 15 years old, and a virgin. Last season, she didn't even realise Loras was gay. In what world was she in any way prepared to "fuck the shit" out of him? How many 15 year old virgins could have pulled that off? To me the answer's zero. Further, I don't think we've been given any indication whatsoever that Ramsey is someone that anyone could lead around by the dick. To lead someone around by the dick, you need them to want you and to care if you want them. Ramsey's hard on cruel. He wants to see others suffer, and is basically indifferent to their emotions, except perhaps inasmuch as he enjoys seeing them fear him. That's what that little bath time story about Ramsey's ex-es was about. The way to get round him --- and it doesn't go all the way round --- is to become his playmate in torture. ("He let me go on that hunt.") To simper and smile and maybe snarl while you watch the dogs tuck in. That's what you want, for Sansa? That's what you think she's capable of? Marge was willing to try it on with Joffrey, but in the end the Tyrells couldn't stomach that fate for her and we got the Purple Wedding instead. Because what Lady Oleanna understood was that you're not going to change the Joffreys and the Ramseys of this world. They are mostly to be endured. They can be eliminated, but they're hard to manipulate, because they don't care what other people want.
When Goth Sansa came down the stairs last season it was clear they were trying to show us a character who had changed and hardened and was trying to play the game, now. But I don't think you can go from 0 to Brigid O'Shaughnessy with a bottle of hair dye and a feather collar.
I've found the Sansa plot line frustrating in the past precisely because it is in many ways the most realistic depiction of the risks faced by and incredibly harsh limits placed upon the lives of noblewomen in such a violent and patriarchal society. I didn't enjoy that scene. But to me is seemed clear that Ramsey brutalising her in some fashion was pretty much the only realistic outcome if she actually went through with the marriage, given what we know of both characters.
posted by maggiepolitt at 6:47 AM on May 19, 2015 [14 favorites]
That makes no sense to me. I agree that we've had glimmer of defiance and signs of growth from Sansa. She's 15 years old, and a virgin. Last season, she didn't even realise Loras was gay. In what world was she in any way prepared to "fuck the shit" out of him? How many 15 year old virgins could have pulled that off? To me the answer's zero. Further, I don't think we've been given any indication whatsoever that Ramsey is someone that anyone could lead around by the dick. To lead someone around by the dick, you need them to want you and to care if you want them. Ramsey's hard on cruel. He wants to see others suffer, and is basically indifferent to their emotions, except perhaps inasmuch as he enjoys seeing them fear him. That's what that little bath time story about Ramsey's ex-es was about. The way to get round him --- and it doesn't go all the way round --- is to become his playmate in torture. ("He let me go on that hunt.") To simper and smile and maybe snarl while you watch the dogs tuck in. That's what you want, for Sansa? That's what you think she's capable of? Marge was willing to try it on with Joffrey, but in the end the Tyrells couldn't stomach that fate for her and we got the Purple Wedding instead. Because what Lady Oleanna understood was that you're not going to change the Joffreys and the Ramseys of this world. They are mostly to be endured. They can be eliminated, but they're hard to manipulate, because they don't care what other people want.
When Goth Sansa came down the stairs last season it was clear they were trying to show us a character who had changed and hardened and was trying to play the game, now. But I don't think you can go from 0 to Brigid O'Shaughnessy with a bottle of hair dye and a feather collar.
I've found the Sansa plot line frustrating in the past precisely because it is in many ways the most realistic depiction of the risks faced by and incredibly harsh limits placed upon the lives of noblewomen in such a violent and patriarchal society. I didn't enjoy that scene. But to me is seemed clear that Ramsey brutalising her in some fashion was pretty much the only realistic outcome if she actually went through with the marriage, given what we know of both characters.
posted by maggiepolitt at 6:47 AM on May 19, 2015 [14 favorites]
Ayra is supposed to become no one, but she isn't very good at it yet (Genius.com annotated script, possible spoilers in the annotations, as I'm not familiar with Genius' spoiler policy or moderation of annotations). Jaqen-face hits Ayra and says "a lie," saying that he caught her telling lies, when the lies should sound as real as her truths. Being no one means being able to shed who you were, including all the ties to your past; your grudges, your loves, your family, and to become anyone else to tell any story you need to tell. The waif proves that Ayra is also too trusting, unable to see through the lies others tell.
At first, I was hung up on the fact that 1) Ayra wasn't suspicious enough about Shadowy Stranger and his tale of his Suffering Daughter, until the daughter spoke for herself; and then 2) the fact that Jaqen-face was happy enough with the story Ayra told about the healing powers of the water, because it's easy to lie to a desperate person who is looking for any kind of answer to their problem.
But it wasn't about who she was deceiving, but why - she made the death that the sick girl was looking for a blessing instead of a curse. Death was the cure to her suffering, and she took it willingly, with ease, because she thought it would really cure her. But when there is no cure, a lie is better than the truth, to ease some of the suffering in those final moments.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:10 AM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
At first, I was hung up on the fact that 1) Ayra wasn't suspicious enough about Shadowy Stranger and his tale of his Suffering Daughter, until the daughter spoke for herself; and then 2) the fact that Jaqen-face was happy enough with the story Ayra told about the healing powers of the water, because it's easy to lie to a desperate person who is looking for any kind of answer to their problem.
But it wasn't about who she was deceiving, but why - she made the death that the sick girl was looking for a blessing instead of a curse. Death was the cure to her suffering, and she took it willingly, with ease, because she thought it would really cure her. But when there is no cure, a lie is better than the truth, to ease some of the suffering in those final moments.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:10 AM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ask the Maester: Sansa’s Horrific Wedding, the Bolton-Stark Alliance, and the Sand Snakes
posted by homunculus at 12:04 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 12:04 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The money quote in that link:
Knowing what we know about Littlefinger, based on, oh, four seasons of fairly calculated Machiavellian string-pulling — he was behind the downfall of Jon Arryn, he played Ned Stark like a violin, he facilitated the Purple Wedding, and he seized control of the Vale with a simple push — there is approximately zero percent chance he would broker a marriage deal with the Boltons without doing his due diligence on them. That would not ever happen. This guy is supposed to be the mastermind-behind-the-guy-behind-the-guy. Baelish taking a calculated risk with Sansa’s safety as part of a larger plot would at least make sense. Sansa getting raped because Littlefinger was flat-out lazy and inept doesn’t earn the brutal shock of the scene.posted by corb at 12:12 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, there was no way that Littlefinger didn't know what he was setting Sansa up for. He just didn't care/thought she could handle it.
I'm in the "she can handle it" camp too, and will be super disappointed if she spends the rest of the season either a.) a withering mess or b.) going all Stockholm like Dany, as opposed to c.) getting started on her epic revenge.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:44 PM on May 19, 2015
I'm in the "she can handle it" camp too, and will be super disappointed if she spends the rest of the season either a.) a withering mess or b.) going all Stockholm like Dany, as opposed to c.) getting started on her epic revenge.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:44 PM on May 19, 2015
I think there is still time for Ramsey Bolton's Head On A Spike/Lady Sansa, Wardeness Of The North, but it's something I'd like to see, so she's probably going to die in childbirth or something.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 12:59 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Elementary Penguin at 12:59 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah I guess my example was kind of skeevy, but I'm not sure saying the situation is "realistic" is all that great either. I'm just frustrated because the whole scenario is so boring. We've seen what Ramsay does, we know what happened to Reek, so a nice twist would be to not have it happen to Sansa as well. At the end of the day I don't give a shit but I think they've flogged this dead horse pretty comprehensively.
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:35 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:35 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I appreciated Gay of Thrones's take on the final scene. Rude.
(Orphan Ging is nowhere near as catchy as Orphan Brown though).
posted by sparklemotion at 2:24 PM on May 19, 2015
(Orphan Ging is nowhere near as catchy as Orphan Brown though).
posted by sparklemotion at 2:24 PM on May 19, 2015
Thank you, Sokka shot first, for the link to Sarah Mesle's spot-on review -- "knocked outta the park" indeed. Money quote:
"This scene is primarily a violation of Sansa, but it is a violation of us too. It hurts us, I think, because it hems us in at all sides. Like Sansa, we willingly consented to participate in this show. Like Reek, we are told to watch, but are not being forcibly held. We stay because we made a contract. We made a deal, even if we didn’t understand the terms to which we agreed. And so not only are we being made to watch something painful, but we are also being told, implicitly, that it is our fantasy to do so."
posted by hush at 3:48 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
"This scene is primarily a violation of Sansa, but it is a violation of us too. It hurts us, I think, because it hems us in at all sides. Like Sansa, we willingly consented to participate in this show. Like Reek, we are told to watch, but are not being forcibly held. We stay because we made a contract. We made a deal, even if we didn’t understand the terms to which we agreed. And so not only are we being made to watch something painful, but we are also being told, implicitly, that it is our fantasy to do so."
posted by hush at 3:48 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Bronn's singing {*} made me momentarily anticipate a David Bowie cameo.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 5:31 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 5:31 PM on May 20, 2015
It's also nice to see Arya moving up the ladder at Dignitas.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 5:32 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 5:32 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
That cistern is full of a pentobarbital solution. (Imported from Pentos?)
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:08 PM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:08 PM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just watched this tonight.
I actually laughed out loud at Ellaria just standing there looking back and forth when the yellowcoats came to arrest her.
My actual comment: "Do you think she'll flip backwards into that fountain and try to kill herself? How hilarious would that be?"
posted by jquinby at 8:17 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I actually laughed out loud at Ellaria just standing there looking back and forth when the yellowcoats came to arrest her.
My actual comment: "Do you think she'll flip backwards into that fountain and try to kill herself? How hilarious would that be?"
posted by jquinby at 8:17 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Game of Thrones Season 5: Artisan Piece #1: The Weapons of Dorne
posted by homunculus at 11:39 AM on June 19, 2015
posted by homunculus at 11:39 AM on June 19, 2015
There is a human past about which we can be truthful, be “realistic,” but we can never be realistic about Westeros because Westeros does not exist. Westeros plays by a set of established rules — fantasy novels are still novels, and all novels satisfy by contracting rules with their readers — but those rules are not “realism,” whatever realism is. If Westeros is similar to our world, it is because Westeros’s creators have made it that way.So many discussions about okay now Sansa got woke. She got Littlefinger to admit his plans, she covered for him when crazy aunt died, she dyed her hair black, she told the kennel daughter "I was born here".
Nope, to the writers, she's just a pawn. There's no there, there.
Ugh, I need to take a shower after watching the end of this episode.
Which is too bad, because it featured the first genuine laugh out loud quote: GUESS AGAIN!
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:40 PM on October 7, 2018
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Recaps
Various BS
FoxSistersAV Club
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:23 PM on May 17, 2015 [5 favorites]