Supernatural: Form and Void
October 15, 2015 5:22 PM - Season 11, Episode 2 - Subscribe
Sam continues to search for a cure for a supernatural infection in Superior, Nebraska, while Dean helps Deputy Jenna with baby Amara. Castiel is questioned by the angels about Metatron and the Winchesters.
I was struck by two things in particular with this episode. 1) Night of the Hunter in the opening scene (on Lillian Gish's birthday, no less...)! Very meta or something! and 2) The extremely bizarre use of... Sugar Shack?! Seriously weird choice of music there, but it made me laugh harder than I can remember laughing at anything Supernatural-related, so it had that going for it.
Loved Crowley in this episode (though hey, whaddya know, they killed off yet another female character!), loved Cas kicking ass! Sorry to see Hannah go, though!
posted by kittyb at 8:14 PM on October 15, 2015
Loved Crowley in this episode (though hey, whaddya know, they killed off yet another female character!), loved Cas kicking ass! Sorry to see Hannah go, though!
posted by kittyb at 8:14 PM on October 15, 2015
Jenna was Jeanne on Falling Skies. She didn't survive that either. I was really hoping she would stay longer in this show :(
Even with the hint from Billie the Reaper that helped Sam, I feel like she's alluding to how this season will end, with one or both of them in the "void". And of course "no one's ever come back from void" means one or both of them will.
posted by numaner at 10:40 AM on October 16, 2015
Even with the hint from Billie the Reaper that helped Sam, I feel like she's alluding to how this season will end, with one or both of them in the "void". And of course "no one's ever come back from void" means one or both of them will.
posted by numaner at 10:40 AM on October 16, 2015
It was really, really satisfying to see someone tell Sam, "Thank you."
Billie didn't confirm or deny being a Reaper. I bet she's the new Death.
posted by tomboko at 3:17 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Billie didn't confirm or deny being a Reaper. I bet she's the new Death.
posted by tomboko at 3:17 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
>Billie didn't confirm or deny being a Reaper. I bet she's the new Death.
My money's on that. Most reapers don't appear as corporeal as she and the former Death did.
posted by insert.witticism.here at 4:26 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
My money's on that. Most reapers don't appear as corporeal as she and the former Death did.
posted by insert.witticism.here at 4:26 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Dean gets all the best quips and he's undeniably the more compelling character, but I've always thought Sam was underrated. There was an episode a few seasons ago where he was in a mental hospital because he was being psychologically tortured by Lucifer and he hadn't slept for days and days, and while he was in there he met a woman who was having problems with her brother's ghost. Despite the fact that Sam was being tortured by the devil and he was half out of his mind, he immediately went to work trying to help this woman. And that is so Sam Winchester. Sometimes he's a jerk (usually when the writers are a little too desperate to shake things up) but at heart he's a big, bleeding heart dude who gets shit done. In this episode he's losing his mind from the zombie juice in his veins, and despite that he still figured out the cure. Dean is more fun to watch, but Sam is the guy who hits the books and figures out what they have to do to save the world.
(Although I had to wonder why he didn't tell Dean he'd been infected. The Winchesters keep all kinds of dumb secrets from each other, but that one really baffled me.)
That vision he had, with his flesh being torn by chains or whatever the hell we were seeing, looked like a flashback to what little we saw of his time in hell. Recently one of Crowley's minions made a reference to Lucifer in the cage, freaking out about the Darkness getting out. I don't know if the writers just wanted to suggest that the Darkness is so bad that even the devil is scared of it, or if that line and Sam's weird vision were signs that we might be seeing Lucifer again.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:58 PM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
(Although I had to wonder why he didn't tell Dean he'd been infected. The Winchesters keep all kinds of dumb secrets from each other, but that one really baffled me.)
That vision he had, with his flesh being torn by chains or whatever the hell we were seeing, looked like a flashback to what little we saw of his time in hell. Recently one of Crowley's minions made a reference to Lucifer in the cage, freaking out about the Darkness getting out. I don't know if the writers just wanted to suggest that the Darkness is so bad that even the devil is scared of it, or if that line and Sam's weird vision were signs that we might be seeing Lucifer again.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:58 PM on October 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Billie didn't confirm or deny being a Reaper. I bet she's the new Death.
Her dialogue didn't support that, really. She talked about the 'new boss' in the third person. She also talked about how one of them, (a Reaper), was going to come for a Winchester, and she hoped it was her. If she were in charge, presumably she could just claim the honor herself. (Possibly even take them early - the old Death got killed while arranging Sam's early demise, which is presumably beyond the purview of rank-and-file Reapers.)
The Winchesters keep all kinds of dumb secrets from each other, but that one really baffled me.
I could sorta see it this time - if Dean turned around, it could've easily resulted in the death of a couple noncombatants, (one a baby and all). Still, that is the single tiredest trope on the whole show. I never want to see them hide stuff from each other again - it's come close to ending the world on more than one occasion, and they really should be smarter than that.
Other thoughts:
* I was pleasantly surprised by Sam's solution to the plague - it was fast and relatively simple, but completely unavailable to normal people and made thematic sense. I was expecting bullshit, but... nah, good job, show.
* Angels are so pants-on-head stupid.
* Crowley was awesome, and I would watch a show just centering on him screwing everybody over. Annoyed as I was with Jenna's demise, his, "You're welcome" was still pretty spot-on.
posted by mordax at 8:21 PM on October 16, 2015
Her dialogue didn't support that, really. She talked about the 'new boss' in the third person. She also talked about how one of them, (a Reaper), was going to come for a Winchester, and she hoped it was her. If she were in charge, presumably she could just claim the honor herself. (Possibly even take them early - the old Death got killed while arranging Sam's early demise, which is presumably beyond the purview of rank-and-file Reapers.)
The Winchesters keep all kinds of dumb secrets from each other, but that one really baffled me.
I could sorta see it this time - if Dean turned around, it could've easily resulted in the death of a couple noncombatants, (one a baby and all). Still, that is the single tiredest trope on the whole show. I never want to see them hide stuff from each other again - it's come close to ending the world on more than one occasion, and they really should be smarter than that.
Other thoughts:
* I was pleasantly surprised by Sam's solution to the plague - it was fast and relatively simple, but completely unavailable to normal people and made thematic sense. I was expecting bullshit, but... nah, good job, show.
* Angels are so pants-on-head stupid.
* Crowley was awesome, and I would watch a show just centering on him screwing everybody over. Annoyed as I was with Jenna's demise, his, "You're welcome" was still pretty spot-on.
posted by mordax at 8:21 PM on October 16, 2015
Decent episode. It's nice to see Crowley twirling his mustache instead of being a big softy about Dean and/or his mom.
I was pleasantly surprised by Sam's solution to the plague - it was fast and relatively simple, but completely unavailable to normal people and made thematic sense. I was expecting bullshit, but... nah, good job, show.
It sure beats the hell (Ha!) out of the soap sprayers they used to take down Leviathans. Man, the Leviathans sucked.
posted by brundlefly at 8:44 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was pleasantly surprised by Sam's solution to the plague - it was fast and relatively simple, but completely unavailable to normal people and made thematic sense. I was expecting bullshit, but... nah, good job, show.
It sure beats the hell (Ha!) out of the soap sprayers they used to take down Leviathans. Man, the Leviathans sucked.
posted by brundlefly at 8:44 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
It sure beats the hell (Ha!) out of the soap sprayers they used to take down Leviathans.
Oh man. It needs to be a rule that if the ultimate weapon against your timeless evil can be fired from a Super Soaker, someone must edit the script until this is no longer true.
posted by mordax at 8:59 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh man. It needs to be a rule that if the ultimate weapon against your timeless evil can be fired from a Super Soaker, someone must edit the script until this is no longer true.
posted by mordax at 8:59 PM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, and one thing that kind of bugged me... When Death was killed I assumed there would be broader ramifications. As in, people can't die anymore. That sort of thing. I'm sure that trope has been done to death (Ha!) but I would actually be interested in Supernatural's take on it. It would shake up the show's status quo, that's for damn sure.
I guess "Death" is more an administrative role than an integral part of reality?
posted by brundlefly at 12:09 AM on October 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I guess "Death" is more an administrative role than an integral part of reality?
posted by brundlefly at 12:09 AM on October 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know they made a whole episode about Hannah releasing her human vessel, so they couldn't bring that actress back. But having the character played by another actor (a dude we didn't have any time to get used to) really blunted the impact of her setting Castiel up to be tortured and her death. With the Yellow Eyed Demon and the various Megs and other characters who've used different vessels, we had time to accept that the new actor was the character we knew. In this case it was like, "Wait, Hannah's a dude now? And... she betrayed Castiel? And she's... dead? Oh. Okay."
Well, at least she was male when she took a blade through her skull, which sort of mitigates the trope about every woman on Supernatural having to die horribly. Although Mannah (I call dibs on that one!) wasn't around long enough for us to find out if the character identified as male now or not. It's too bad she didn't stick around, because it would be interesting to see how she interacted with Castiel as a male.
I have a hard time believing that Death is really dead. I'd wager we'll eventually find out he let the universe believe he was dead, for his own reasons. I mean, he's Death. How can Death die? What Reaper would come and take him? It might be the end of the season or it might be the series finale, but I think Death'll be back.
The writers really have to stop going for the trope where Sam and Dean keep secrets from each other. I think even the most diehard fans are tired of that one. In the unlikely event that any of the show's writers cruise Fanfare looking to see what the fans think, let me speak for fans everywhere and say NO MORE FREAKING SECRETS BETWEEN SAM AND DEAN!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:56 AM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, at least she was male when she took a blade through her skull, which sort of mitigates the trope about every woman on Supernatural having to die horribly. Although Mannah (I call dibs on that one!) wasn't around long enough for us to find out if the character identified as male now or not. It's too bad she didn't stick around, because it would be interesting to see how she interacted with Castiel as a male.
I have a hard time believing that Death is really dead. I'd wager we'll eventually find out he let the universe believe he was dead, for his own reasons. I mean, he's Death. How can Death die? What Reaper would come and take him? It might be the end of the season or it might be the series finale, but I think Death'll be back.
The writers really have to stop going for the trope where Sam and Dean keep secrets from each other. I think even the most diehard fans are tired of that one. In the unlikely event that any of the show's writers cruise Fanfare looking to see what the fans think, let me speak for fans everywhere and say NO MORE FREAKING SECRETS BETWEEN SAM AND DEAN!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:56 AM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I have a hard time believing that Death is really dead.
Me too. I'll be pretty disappointed if that turns out to actually be the case - Death always made such a big deal out of being beyond the ken of the Winchesters, and I really preferred that being true.
One of the biggest dangers of a long running universe is that it can end up feeling so *small* after awhile. The more they poke at the bounds of the world, the smaller and less important everything feels. Death was possibly older than God, and was going to be the one to reap him... and some ordinary human that he was expecting treachery from got the drop on him? That doesn't say anything good about the scope of their entire universe.
I have similar complaints about nuWho, the final couple seasons of Stargate SG-1 and all things Star Wars or Star Trek, just for starters, but Supernatural is a place where this is particularly egregious.
posted by mordax at 10:55 AM on October 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Me too. I'll be pretty disappointed if that turns out to actually be the case - Death always made such a big deal out of being beyond the ken of the Winchesters, and I really preferred that being true.
One of the biggest dangers of a long running universe is that it can end up feeling so *small* after awhile. The more they poke at the bounds of the world, the smaller and less important everything feels. Death was possibly older than God, and was going to be the one to reap him... and some ordinary human that he was expecting treachery from got the drop on him? That doesn't say anything good about the scope of their entire universe.
I have similar complaints about nuWho, the final couple seasons of Stargate SG-1 and all things Star Wars or Star Trek, just for starters, but Supernatural is a place where this is particularly egregious.
posted by mordax at 10:55 AM on October 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
"You're unclean. In the Biblical sense."
So... moose is actually a shellfish? Looking into it, meese are considered kosher.
Or is The Darkness TM like a communicable disease that vectors like STDs?
edit: smores!
posted by porpoise at 8:52 PM on December 16, 2021
So... moose is actually a shellfish? Looking into it, meese are considered kosher.
Or is The Darkness TM like a communicable disease that vectors like STDs?
edit: smores!
posted by porpoise at 8:52 PM on December 16, 2021
Quotes
Billie: It's over.
Sam: What's over?
Billie: You and Dean, dying and coming back again and again. The old Death thought it was funny. But now there's one hard, fast rule in this universe: what lives, dies. So the next time you or your brother bite it, well, you're not going to Heaven or Hell. One of us -- and, lord, I hope it's me -- we're gonna make a mistake and toss you out into the Empty. And nothing comes back from that.
Dean: Jen! Jenna!
Crowley: Really?
Dean: What?
Crowley: We have no idea what ancient, world-shattering evil we're dealing with, but go right ahead. Let him know we're coming!
Dean: Listen, Velma, this isn't the Scooby gang, okay? So either shut up or get out.
Crowley: Easy, tiger. Just trying to help.
Dean: [walks away into Amara's room]
Crowley: [muttering to himself] I'm way more of a Daphne.
Dean: [looking at the mess left by the Stynes] We got to get a maid. But, you know, one with a-a little uniform and really big, uh -- [is fortunately interrupted by a groan from the injured Castiel]
Trivia
The song that Billie (the reaper) was singing was "Oh Death", the song that was playing when Death first appeared on the show.
The movie playing on Sam's phone inside the bucket is Night of the Hunter, released in 1955 and starring Robert Mitchum.
This episode shares its title with the finale of True Detective Season 1, which was also named "Form and Void". The term is drawn from the opening verses of of Genesis, which reads, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Billie says to Sam, "You flirting with me, kid?" which if true would mean that Sam is "flirting with death". Billie then goes on to say Sam is not her type, possibly alluding to the idea that Sam is not likely to die.
This episode is the first to make mention of the Empty. Billie says nothing escapes the Empty, but this is later proven not to be true
While he is talking to Dean on speaker, Sam is holding his phone vertically, then horizontally, then vertically.
At the end of the episode, when Crowley opens the van to reveal four people tied and gagged, they are in broad daylight on a city street. The gags are simple cloth ones and would not prevent any of the captives from screaming for help. They are all obviously conscious and aware of what is going on and there is apparently nothing to stop them from calling attention to themselves.
posted by orange swan at 10:14 AM on December 17, 2021
Billie: It's over.
Sam: What's over?
Billie: You and Dean, dying and coming back again and again. The old Death thought it was funny. But now there's one hard, fast rule in this universe: what lives, dies. So the next time you or your brother bite it, well, you're not going to Heaven or Hell. One of us -- and, lord, I hope it's me -- we're gonna make a mistake and toss you out into the Empty. And nothing comes back from that.
Dean: Jen! Jenna!
Crowley: Really?
Dean: What?
Crowley: We have no idea what ancient, world-shattering evil we're dealing with, but go right ahead. Let him know we're coming!
Dean: Listen, Velma, this isn't the Scooby gang, okay? So either shut up or get out.
Crowley: Easy, tiger. Just trying to help.
Dean: [walks away into Amara's room]
Crowley: [muttering to himself] I'm way more of a Daphne.
Dean: [looking at the mess left by the Stynes] We got to get a maid. But, you know, one with a-a little uniform and really big, uh -- [is fortunately interrupted by a groan from the injured Castiel]
Trivia
The song that Billie (the reaper) was singing was "Oh Death", the song that was playing when Death first appeared on the show.
The movie playing on Sam's phone inside the bucket is Night of the Hunter, released in 1955 and starring Robert Mitchum.
This episode shares its title with the finale of True Detective Season 1, which was also named "Form and Void". The term is drawn from the opening verses of of Genesis, which reads, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Billie says to Sam, "You flirting with me, kid?" which if true would mean that Sam is "flirting with death". Billie then goes on to say Sam is not her type, possibly alluding to the idea that Sam is not likely to die.
This episode is the first to make mention of the Empty. Billie says nothing escapes the Empty, but this is later proven not to be true
While he is talking to Dean on speaker, Sam is holding his phone vertically, then horizontally, then vertically.
At the end of the episode, when Crowley opens the van to reveal four people tied and gagged, they are in broad daylight on a city street. The gags are simple cloth ones and would not prevent any of the captives from screaming for help. They are all obviously conscious and aware of what is going on and there is apparently nothing to stop them from calling attention to themselves.
posted by orange swan at 10:14 AM on December 17, 2021
Death always made such a big deal out of being beyond the ken of the Winchesters, and I really preferred that being true.
Let's remember that when Dean killed Death, he was juiced up on the Mark of Cain, so he essentially had superhuman powers. Normal workaday Dean was probably not at all capable of killing Death.
The black veins on the infected is some pretty decent special effects makeup.
Misha Collins plays a mad dog well.
posted by orange swan at 10:17 AM on December 17, 2021
Let's remember that when Dean killed Death, he was juiced up on the Mark of Cain, so he essentially had superhuman powers. Normal workaday Dean was probably not at all capable of killing Death.
The black veins on the infected is some pretty decent special effects makeup.
Misha Collins plays a mad dog well.
posted by orange swan at 10:17 AM on December 17, 2021
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posted by cfoxhi at 5:23 PM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]