Daredevil: New York's Finest
March 19, 2016 7:26 AM - Season 2, Episode 3 - Subscribe
Trapped face-to-face with the Punisher, Daredevil wrestles with the morality of vigilante justice. Meanwhile, Foggy and Karen work to save the firm.
Foggy kicks ass.
posted by nubs at 8:50 AM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nubs at 8:50 AM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I so love that every season, we get a hallway/staircase long fight where at the end, I'm just like DAMN, I'M tired from watching him punch, kick and chain-whip everyone! Great stamina that Daredevil has...
*feels tingly inside watching long fights, kinda like a sneeze -- only better*
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:01 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
*feels tingly inside watching long fights, kinda like a sneeze -- only better*
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:01 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
The fight sequence didn't do much for me; it just felt like they were trying to one up the sequence from last year, and it didn't feel as organic to me. Particularly the way DD was whipping the chain around people's necks and flinging guys down flights of stairs; it felt very off after he's spent most of the episode defending his "no kill" approach.
posted by nubs at 9:22 AM on March 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by nubs at 9:22 AM on March 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
That's interesting, because I felt the opposite. I didn't like last season's tour de force set piece -- most people praised it for it's realism but it felt very unreal to me. It felt artificial in how his antagonists alternated, it was brutal but to my eye very obviously choreographed and so the intended brutal realism was badly undermined. His progress down the stairs meant that he had a steady stream of combatants but it made sense that they wouldn't all come at once and that, in order for the fight to continue, he didn't have to conveniently fight re-engagements one-at-a-time. Once someone was down, they mostly were down and he went on his way.
And while I agree with the complaint about some of that not being very "non-lethal", for me I had to decide that wasn't an issue for my suspension of disbelief right from the start. At even the most superficial level, you can't actually knock people out with only a few blows and not have some substantial portion of them develop fatal concussions from it, especially if you're leaving them behind unconscious without immediate treatment. Beyond that, he's also going to break people's necks, they're going to get punctured lungs from broken ribs, they're going to get punctured/severed major veins or arteries from some other broken bones, some of them are going to have organ failure from internal blunt trauma injuries, some are going to get serious and occasionally fatal complications from relatively minor injuries like infections or compartment syndrome, some are going to choke from a crushed throat or asphyxiate on their own blood while unconscious. Basically, you can't beat that many people that badly without killing someone every now and then. But in television and movies, only guns and knives kill people -- fists (and apparently metal rods to the head) only injure people enough to put them in bed for a few days, at most. That's so deeply unrealistic that I simply can't have a problem with him throwing people down the stairs by a chain around their neck without killing them.
(Yea, as a matter of fact, I do feel better having gotten that rant off my chest.)
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:02 AM on March 19, 2016 [13 favorites]
And while I agree with the complaint about some of that not being very "non-lethal", for me I had to decide that wasn't an issue for my suspension of disbelief right from the start. At even the most superficial level, you can't actually knock people out with only a few blows and not have some substantial portion of them develop fatal concussions from it, especially if you're leaving them behind unconscious without immediate treatment. Beyond that, he's also going to break people's necks, they're going to get punctured lungs from broken ribs, they're going to get punctured/severed major veins or arteries from some other broken bones, some of them are going to have organ failure from internal blunt trauma injuries, some are going to get serious and occasionally fatal complications from relatively minor injuries like infections or compartment syndrome, some are going to choke from a crushed throat or asphyxiate on their own blood while unconscious. Basically, you can't beat that many people that badly without killing someone every now and then. But in television and movies, only guns and knives kill people -- fists (and apparently metal rods to the head) only injure people enough to put them in bed for a few days, at most. That's so deeply unrealistic that I simply can't have a problem with him throwing people down the stairs by a chain around their neck without killing them.
(Yea, as a matter of fact, I do feel better having gotten that rant off my chest.)
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:02 AM on March 19, 2016 [13 favorites]
Oops, forget what I said last thread about shipping Karen/Grotto. (It was more of a dinghy than a seaworthy vessel anyway.)
Ridiculousness of Daredevil's 'I never killed anyone' stance aside, loved this episode, kind of want to watch it again now instead of moving on with the binge.
*feels tingly inside watching long fights, kinda like a sneeze -- only better*
This episode made me feel tingly inside too, but, not from the fight scene. :-)
posted by oh yeah! at 10:21 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ridiculousness of Daredevil's 'I never killed anyone' stance aside, loved this episode, kind of want to watch it again now instead of moving on with the binge.
*feels tingly inside watching long fights, kinda like a sneeze -- only better*
This episode made me feel tingly inside too, but, not from the fight scene. :-)
posted by oh yeah! at 10:21 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ridiculousness of Daredevil's 'I never killed anyone' stance aside
Far as I can tell, DD is currently the only MCU hero who hasn't killed anyone. The Avengers kill people left and right. Frank does it specifically to kill the bad guy, where the Avengers are trying to stop the bad guy and killing is a means to that end...so while Frank is still a murderer, the contrast between him and other heroes is much less drastic for me here than it is in the comics universe.
Also, DD running around torturing people doesn't really put him on much of a moral high ground.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:50 AM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Far as I can tell, DD is currently the only MCU hero who hasn't killed anyone. The Avengers kill people left and right. Frank does it specifically to kill the bad guy, where the Avengers are trying to stop the bad guy and killing is a means to that end...so while Frank is still a murderer, the contrast between him and other heroes is much less drastic for me here than it is in the comics universe.
Also, DD running around torturing people doesn't really put him on much of a moral high ground.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:50 AM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Far as I can tell, DD is currently the only MCU hero who hasn't killed anyone.
What about that guy he set on fire in S1 though, he's gotta be dead, right?
posted by oh yeah! at 10:54 AM on March 19, 2016
What about that guy he set on fire in S1 though, he's gotta be dead, right?
posted by oh yeah! at 10:54 AM on March 19, 2016
Arguably an accident. DD didn't start that fire.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:55 AM on March 19, 2016
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:55 AM on March 19, 2016
I forgot to add that after Matt repeatedly stopped Punisher from killing people, my husband dubbed him "the Crimson Cockblock."
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 12:31 PM on March 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 12:31 PM on March 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
(Posting as I watch each episode.)
I gotta say I'm feeling a little nervous about Foggy's characterization being a little too subservient to plot so far - first he pulls the bad-ass legal judo to get the NYC DA to play ball, then he's almost comically pants-wetting terrified of the bikers (and while bikers might be vicious sociopaths IRL, AFAIK they get in enough trouble with the law that they're not gonna just cut up a lawyer that wanders into the clubhouse - more likely they bully him into taking their cases and then stiff him on the fees), then when Karen confronts the DA about using Grotto for bait he just wusses out, and now in this episode he's back to bad-assing the gangbangers down from a fight.
I'd rather see a Foggy who's consistently scared but determined rather than the ping-ponging between tough and terrified.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:26 PM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I gotta say I'm feeling a little nervous about Foggy's characterization being a little too subservient to plot so far - first he pulls the bad-ass legal judo to get the NYC DA to play ball, then he's almost comically pants-wetting terrified of the bikers (and while bikers might be vicious sociopaths IRL, AFAIK they get in enough trouble with the law that they're not gonna just cut up a lawyer that wanders into the clubhouse - more likely they bully him into taking their cases and then stiff him on the fees), then when Karen confronts the DA about using Grotto for bait he just wusses out, and now in this episode he's back to bad-assing the gangbangers down from a fight.
I'd rather see a Foggy who's consistently scared but determined rather than the ping-ponging between tough and terrified.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:26 PM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I thought about Foggy's back & forth as well, but I think he was still in shock from possibly losing Matt -- he wusses out right after charging through the firefight and seeing the giant streak of blood at the bottom of the skylight. I'm willing to chalk that up to internal panic, especially after he had stood up to the DA in the scene before that and talked down the thugs at the hospital after that.
I'm glad someone up above brought up the guy he lit on fire last season. I guess if the fact that Kingpin showed up before Matt could put him out is what lets him sleep at night, then OK.
The rooftop scene went somewhat differently in the comics. I think I like this version better. I still don't think what Grotto did was worth shooting up a hospital and Frank's "no one got hurt that didn't deserve it" or whatever he said was weak sauce. Again, it doesn't pay to think about it too hard when the guy who won't kill people is dealing out non-stop grievous head trauma.
posted by Jugwine at 5:54 PM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm glad someone up above brought up the guy he lit on fire last season. I guess if the fact that Kingpin showed up before Matt could put him out is what lets him sleep at night, then OK.
The rooftop scene went somewhat differently in the comics. I think I like this version better. I still don't think what Grotto did was worth shooting up a hospital and Frank's "no one got hurt that didn't deserve it" or whatever he said was weak sauce. Again, it doesn't pay to think about it too hard when the guy who won't kill people is dealing out non-stop grievous head trauma.
posted by Jugwine at 5:54 PM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
How did I know Frank would call Matt "Red."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:10 PM on March 19, 2016
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:10 PM on March 19, 2016
That's a really slow elevator.
posted by RobotHero at 9:17 AM on March 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by RobotHero at 9:17 AM on March 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
The rooftop scene went somewhat differently in the comics. I think I like this version better.
I definitely liked this version better. The comics version is a prime example of Garth Ennis (the writer) using superheroes as butt monkeys/strawmen for the sermon that he never tires of preaching, Genuine Hard Men Are Superior To Superheroes In Every Way And Here's Why. Looking at that scene now, I have to wonder, why didn't Matt just shoot the round into the air (or at least try) and warn the cops or whoever is guarding the mobster that way? Or just shoot Frank in the shoulder and knock his aim off, even if his armor extends up that high? (And never mind that the firing pin on the hammer of the gun is clearly still in place.) The TV version is an excellent subversion of the scene, giving Matt yet another way of avoiding taking the shot, and IMO a much more interesting conversation between the two.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:33 PM on March 20, 2016
I definitely liked this version better. The comics version is a prime example of Garth Ennis (the writer) using superheroes as butt monkeys/strawmen for the sermon that he never tires of preaching, Genuine Hard Men Are Superior To Superheroes In Every Way And Here's Why. Looking at that scene now, I have to wonder, why didn't Matt just shoot the round into the air (or at least try) and warn the cops or whoever is guarding the mobster that way? Or just shoot Frank in the shoulder and knock his aim off, even if his armor extends up that high? (And never mind that the firing pin on the hammer of the gun is clearly still in place.) The TV version is an excellent subversion of the scene, giving Matt yet another way of avoiding taking the shot, and IMO a much more interesting conversation between the two.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:33 PM on March 20, 2016
But in television and movies, only guns and knives kill people -- fists (and apparently metal rods to the head) only injure people enough to put them in bed for a few days, at most.
Except in Con Air. And that Bruce Willis movie.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:22 PM on March 20, 2016
Except in Con Air. And that Bruce Willis movie.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:22 PM on March 20, 2016
I'm loving that they give Foggy and Karen so much screen time.
I keep annoying my wife by calling things out before they happen. I yelled "hallway fight" right before this one and "they're totally going through that skylight" in the last episode. I wish that the action scenes could be a little less predictable.
posted by octothorpe at 8:42 AM on March 21, 2016
I keep annoying my wife by calling things out before they happen. I yelled "hallway fight" right before this one and "they're totally going through that skylight" in the last episode. I wish that the action scenes could be a little less predictable.
posted by octothorpe at 8:42 AM on March 21, 2016
Arguably an accident. DD didn't start that fire.
My go-to problem continues to be the dropping a heavy object on someone's head in his initial meeting with Claire. I can accept a DD who thinks it's an okay line to never try to kill but it might happen. You're in a fight - which you did not instigate - and someone falls wrong down the staircase; they have some responsibility there. Okay, I'll write that off as a comic story compromise.
But in that scene he dropped a 5lb+ weight down 3+ flights of stairs. There's just no way you do that such that you don't potentially - maybe probably - kill someone
posted by phearlez at 8:48 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
My go-to problem continues to be the dropping a heavy object on someone's head in his initial meeting with Claire. I can accept a DD who thinks it's an okay line to never try to kill but it might happen. You're in a fight - which you did not instigate - and someone falls wrong down the staircase; they have some responsibility there. Okay, I'll write that off as a comic story compromise.
But in that scene he dropped a 5lb+ weight down 3+ flights of stairs. There's just no way you do that such that you don't potentially - maybe probably - kill someone
posted by phearlez at 8:48 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
As in last season's epic fight scene, I loved most the parts where he was hitting the same guy four, five, six times in a row, because the dude wouldn't just go the fuck to sleep. Especially for a hero with only human strength, it's nice to see less of that one-punch-knockout shit.
posted by Etrigan at 11:55 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 11:55 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I gotta say I'm feeling a little nervous about Foggy's characterization being a little too subservient to plot so far - first he pulls the bad-ass legal judo to get the NYC DA to play ball, then he's almost comically pants-wetting terrified of the bikersSpeaking as a coward, I actually found it very easy to identify with. Some things trigger a visceral fear that's occasionally quite humiliating, but I like to think there are situations I am competent at, even under pressure. I look forward to Foggy's AskMe: "Usually I'm pretty good at my office job. I even just did a deal that kept us from losing an important client. But the other day I went to interview someone two of his buddies rammed my head down on a pool table, one pulled a knife on me, and they threatened to beat me up or kill me if I showed my face again. I didn't handle it well at all, I barely finished the interview. That would be OK I guess--I mean, I did get the info I wanted--but my partner really excels at these situations and I feel I'm not pulling my weight. Help me get better dealing with this."
FWIW my read on Foggy is he's actually a good lawyer on account of knowing his stuff and having some actual underlying principles. In unfamiliar situations he gets out of his depth and would prefer to run. He will stick with it when helping his friends though. (Caving to the DA after the fight was more that he didn't care about dressing down the DA at the time, he only wanted to find Matt.)
posted by mark k at 8:31 PM on March 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I hated this episode. It felt too contrived. Everybody was making speeches rather than having any kind of normal dialogue, and every scene seemed designed to hammer home some point.
I really hope this season gets better. So far I am not engaged at all.
posted by kanewai at 1:11 AM on March 28, 2016
I really hope this season gets better. So far I am not engaged at all.
posted by kanewai at 1:11 AM on March 28, 2016
Another late watcher, like kanewal also disappointed with this episode. They tried way too hard to set up the Set Pieces. Punisher and Daredevil in a bottle episode, up on the roof. Foggy in the Emergency Room with Night Nurse. Only Karen got to be a real person out in the world doing things. I like Karen.
I think it was a huge mistake to go for another choreographed hallway/stairway fight scene. I loved the one in the first season, but mostly because it felt so fresh and new to me. (Yes, I know it's a copy of that one movie but I didn't know it at the time.) This time they just telegraphed "look guys, another fight scene!". And then it wasn't directed as well. New things please, don't retread old things.
posted by Nelson at 7:22 AM on April 6, 2016
I think it was a huge mistake to go for another choreographed hallway/stairway fight scene. I loved the one in the first season, but mostly because it felt so fresh and new to me. (Yes, I know it's a copy of that one movie but I didn't know it at the time.) This time they just telegraphed "look guys, another fight scene!". And then it wasn't directed as well. New things please, don't retread old things.
posted by Nelson at 7:22 AM on April 6, 2016
I thought the stairway scene was a big slog. Isn't Daredevil's advantages his perception, reflexes, agility, and speed? Seemed to rely a lot here on brute strength.
posted by grouse at 6:34 PM on April 26, 2016
posted by grouse at 6:34 PM on April 26, 2016
I loved the image of him knocking out the lights with the chain, that was great.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:21 AM on May 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:21 AM on May 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also: Trolley problem, anyone? Comics!Matt, as linked above, appears to favor pulling the lever, while Show!Matt prefers to not pull it. He semi-successfully attempts an alternate solution, but if that had failed he would have been on the non-lever side.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:34 AM on May 2, 2016
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:34 AM on May 2, 2016
The violence level in this episode really bothered me(<>
After watching this episode I was all for the Rule of Law as opposed to Vigilante Justice.
I think my problem with this show is that what I really want is a She-Hulk show where half of each episode is lawyer stuff and the other half is 'Some Supervillain has attacked the courthouse and Jen Has To Hulk Out! Oh No!'
posted by bq at 2:17 PM on May 17, 2016
After watching this episode I was all for the Rule of Law as opposed to Vigilante Justice.
I think my problem with this show is that what I really want is a She-Hulk show where half of each episode is lawyer stuff and the other half is 'Some Supervillain has attacked the courthouse and Jen Has To Hulk Out! Oh No!'
posted by bq at 2:17 PM on May 17, 2016
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AKA: LUKE CAGE reference.
AKA: Foggy rocks, y'all.
I liked the 'hope' chat.
posted by Mezentian at 8:01 AM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]