Daredevil: Penny and Dime
March 19, 2016 7:27 AM - Season 2, Episode 4 - Subscribe

Karen uncovers shocking facts about the Punisher, who finds himself hunted by a powerful force in Hell's Kitchen. Daredevil ponders his next moves.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich (22 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
 
AKA, where we kinda love BEST Punisher.

As in, sorry, Thomas Jane or Ray Thingy , but your replacement might have killed the guy who might have been Datak Taar, but, man, sorry, this is PEAK PUNISHER.

Also, I want a Night Nurse film.
90 minutes, real time.
posted by Mezentian at 8:04 AM on March 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh man I also came in to shout-out Tony Curran's death, and note that actor also played Vincent Van Gogh in a memorable Doctor Who episode.

Definitely peak Punisher, and also peak Tony Curran! I generally get sick of all the mob boss tropes that run rampant in comic lore, but damn, he sure did bring it in just the two eps we've seen him in so far.

I didn't think I would feel very sympathetic for Punisher's backstory, and I still feel like it was a bit ham-fisted -- Karen breaks in (DAMMIT, KAREN! Your sneaking around last season got Ben Urich killed, and now you break into Punisher's house and DON'T RUN when a panel van appears?????), we see some "normal life, kids, wife" photos/stuff, and then the crying scene.

I love Jon Bernthal, he's a great actor though his range is somewhat limited. But, I felt a frisson of his pain over the daughter he never got to read one more goodnight story to before she died.

Am I crazy, or were there two kids and wife in the photos? What about the other kid? Maybe we'll find out in a future episode.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:07 AM on March 19, 2016


I've watched the final scene with Elektra's entrance a few times and I'm still not sure how to interpret it. When I first watched it, it seemed like he was basking in the glow of the kiss and then was surprised by Elekra. (Throwing a knife at him? Or did he just pull a knife out from behind himself? If so, why? He doesn't usually need a knife to fight to defend himself.)

But of course that makes no sense -- he can hear her heartbeat and he should have known she was there when he walked in the door, if not even earlier. So then, when I originally watched it, I paused it and rewound and replayed the scene thinking that it was clever that what he was actually responding to, and smiling about, was Elektra's presence, waiting for her to say something.

But then watching it several times again just now, it looks more like he didn't know she was there. So I'm confused and/or disappointed.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:19 AM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


But of course that makes no sense -- he can hear her heartbeat and he should have known she was there when he walked in the door, if not even earlier.

Two things: I get the impression she can do that same "slow her heartbeat" trick as Nobu in Season One, and Matt has already said he has to focus. He might have been in happy just-got-kissed land or something.

However, I'd have thought he would smell her regardless.

This is indeed an awesome Punisher. I want him to go on and on and on with what he does.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:47 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


As in, sorry, Thomas Jane or Ray Thingy , but your replacement might have killed the guy who might have been Datak Taar, but, man, sorry, this is PEAK PUNISHER.

Definitely peak Punisher

This is indeed an awesome Punisher. I want him to go on and on and on with what he does.

Nah, completely disagree. Bernthal is talented, and clearly a better actor, but Ray Stevenson is the closest to how the Punisher should be. I was kind of disappointed how soft and sloppy this Frank is, but I guess they necessarily have to change and humanize him for this show.

Also, it seems like they've changed his backstory because the house Karen broke into still looks occupied. It looked like someone was living there, it wasn't falling apart, etc. Is Castle's family actually alive and he just somehow thinks they're dead? He clearly thinks at least his daughter is dead, but her room looked lived-in when Karen was there. There were even children's toys and shoes strewn around, though I guess they could have been the son's.

It seems like it's been a good while since the daughter died. If a whole family died would their house just sit there untouched the whole time?
posted by Sangermaine at 10:57 AM on March 19, 2016


I was distracted by the disappearance of Frank's dog. Did they just leave him behind with all the dead Irish mobsters? Did they think it would be too John Wick to have him sitting there making big puppy eyes at Frank while he monologued? For shame.
posted by oh yeah! at 11:55 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm also in the camp of DD was distracted with happy kissing thoughts and missed Elektra's heartbeat initially.
posted by miss-lapin at 12:18 PM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


But then watching it several times again just now, it looks more like he didn't know she was there.

*shrug* Ninja.
posted by happyroach at 3:26 PM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Did the actors turn to the camera and wink when they mentioned how the Punisher was making a WAR ZONE out there? Because that and the Irish mob stuff made me feel the heavy, swearing hand of Ennis on the scales.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:04 PM on March 19, 2016


Agree. Ninja + Matt's in la-la land.

Ray Stevenson is the closest to how the Punisher should be.

Ray Stevenson + the script + Lexi Alexander's direction made a film that's not only excellent in its own right but one of the best adaptions of a story from comics to film. But I wouldn't say that's necessarily the only or even the best way to portray the character well. Punisher's gone through variations even in the comics, so . . . . Mostly I thought this Punisher was great, although I'm with everyone else in that having him shotgunning a hospital wholesale was missing an important element of his character.

Am I crazy, or were there two kids and wife in the photos? What about the other kid?

Not crazy, two kids and a wife, yup. He did mention his son once during the graveyard scene. Canon is that his whole family dies, for now I'm assuming that they're all dead, it's just that Castle had a special connection with his daughter ("daughters have a special place in their Daddy's heart" being a common trope) so that her death hit him the hardest.

If a whole family died would their house just sit there untouched the whole time?

Uh, Frank is still alive . . .

If he bothered to keep up on the bills it could plausibly be years before anyone bothered to check if the house was actually occupied. Even if he didn't there would be a whole lengthy process before anyone besides Frank would be able to get into the house (legally) and pack up.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:12 PM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I have really appreciated the fact that both this episode and the last one show the side-effects of Punisher's rampage through Hell's Kitchen. Even if Frank isn't killing anyone but "bad guys", the bad guys are all going nuts and causing a lot of collateral damage. Maybe that's another thing that makes him different than Daredevil -- leaving the baddies alive means that everyone knows who's responsible. It also means that the cops are less likely to turn a blind eye.
posted by Jugwine at 7:34 PM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bah, you guys try paying attention to your surroundings two minutes after making out with DAW and see how well you do.

I really like Bernthal's Punisher. Elektra took a while to grow on me but I got there. I think it took a while because she sounds a lot like Leliana.
posted by Justinian at 8:39 PM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think it took a while because she sounds a lot like Leliana.

I was thinking the awful Angelina Jolie "Tomb Raider" movie. But part of the reason it grew on me was asking myself "What sort of accent would be the exact one that Matt Murdock would classify as "spoiled European rich girl?" I"m hoping that we see her talking to someone else in a completely different accent.
posted by happyroach at 12:41 AM on March 20, 2016


But then watching it several times again just now, it looks more like he didn't know she was there. So I'm confused and/or disappointed.

I took it as Matt was in dazed happy afterglow from two things - Punisher stopped, Hell's Kitchen safe(r); kissing Karen in the rain. I was figuring he was going to invite her up and we'd have instant romantic triangle crap; was glad he didn't.
posted by nubs at 9:54 AM on March 20, 2016


Um, from the way this has been going, this is shaping up to be he origin story of Frank Castle, not a continuation of the existing Punisher showing up. This Frank Castle is still just Frank Castle, killing e crime families that killed his family. Not the full fledged Punisher that we all know from later in the Marvel Universe.

They introduced Cage in the Jessica Jones show. Think of this as a reboot of all of those heroes.

I am liking it so far.
posted by daq at 5:26 PM on March 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


this is shaping up to be he origin story of Frank Castle, not a continuation of the existing Punisher showing up.

I agree. The irish guy answering "who cares" about who killed Frank's family and the following "they'll all pay" sounds like the transition between a guy trying to get revenge on a specific few people and an ongoing campaign against the concept of organized crime.

I loved the graveyard monolog. I like the Punisher as a character, and when he's presented as an unfeeling psychopath I find him a lot less interesting.This guy loved his family so much he made a reasoned decision to become a monster.
posted by The Man from Lardfork at 5:46 AM on March 21, 2016


Bah, you guys try paying attention to your surroundings two minutes after making out with DAW and see how well you do.

Indeed. Loved her voice after Matt asked to f he could take her to dinner. It was all "goddamnit, you can have ME for dinner."

Matt was definitely surprised by Electra. That brief look of fear as he realizes someone else is there was a nice touch by Cox.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:59 PM on March 21, 2016


I really liked the graveyard monologue combined with Karen's trip through the Castle house -- it made his pain feel raw and fresh (his verbal tics also worked well for that), and makes me wonder if we're going to find out that the massacre only happened very recently in show time - like, they died, the next day he started gathering weapons to go massacre criminals, and two weeks later it's gang war.

Also, it was blatantly obvious as soon as he kissed Karen that Elektra was about to show up, but I kind of love that. They're respecting the universal law of nature that Matt Murdock isn't allowed to have nice things.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:57 AM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have hard time accepting that Daredevil hasn't left a trail of corpses, or at least comatose victims, in his wake, and his whole "we don't kill" rings hollow. As such it's been hard for me to give a damn about this season so far.

I'm also a bit irritated that I was seeing major spoilers within a few days of the season's release. As in, headlines on my news feed (not here) about the pros and cons of this season and what did the finale mean and who is coming back next season.
posted by kanewai at 12:25 PM on April 18, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also, it was blatantly obvious as soon as he kissed Karen that Elektra was about to show up, but I kind of love that.

It was obvious as soon as Foggy told Matt to be careful—he might end up happy.

What was going on with the van full of suits approaching the Castle house? Did Karen get out before they got in? That was left a little unclear.
posted by grouse at 5:14 PM on April 28, 2016


also obvioius: but behind the link.
posted by Mezentian at 8:08 AM on April 29, 2016


The house was abandoned - there was a table full of dead flowers, presumably left over from the funeral.
posted by bq at 2:11 PM on May 23, 2016


« Older Daredevil: New York's Finest...   |  Movie: The Big Red One... Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments