Game of Thrones: The Red Woman   Books Included 
April 24, 2016 7:55 PM - Season 6, Episode 1 - Subscribe

The season 6 premiere picks up right where the season 5 finale left off. At the Wall, Sir Davos and Dolorous Ed ponder how to respond to Thorne's treachery. In the North, Sansa and Theon fight the cold and flee the Boltons' hounds. In King's Landing, Cersei and Jaime are reunited. In Dorne, Doran and Ellaria discuss leadership. In Essos, Tyrion and Varys go for a walk in Mereen, while Daenerys meets the local Khal somewhere in the Sea of Grass.
posted by homunculus (286 comments total) 8 users marked this as a favorite
 
Glad we still have a thread for the ubernerds despite the show catching up to the books.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:56 PM on April 24, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well, with Doran gone I guess it's official: Dorne is now populated entirely by idiots.
posted by homunculus at 7:58 PM on April 24, 2016 [10 favorites]


So it looks like the women are driving the plot this season. My guesses:

1) We just witnessed the beginning of Sansa's rise to power. I wouldn't be surprised if she eventually takes a turn on the Iron Throne.

2) Arya is gonna learn some Daredevil type shit.

3) Dorne, now under the rule of the Sand Snakes, will secede and/or go to war against the Lannisters. Control of the tropical part of Westeros at the beginning of a long winter is a pretty significant strategic advantage, and if they march on King's Landing then the Lannisters will be getting it from both the north and the south.

4) The look on Daenarys' face when they told her she was going to Vaes Dothrak just screamed "What, I've got to conquer ANOTHER city now? Fine, you asked for it."

5) Cersei's revenge will be glorious.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:07 PM on April 24, 2016 [6 favorites]


Vaes Dothrak sounds like the worst Crone Island ever.
posted by gatorae at 8:09 PM on April 24, 2016 [18 favorites]


About Melisandre: I thought that not-so-subtle necklace glow and her sudden superannuation meant that she was giving up her life for Jon. She looked at herself in the mirror naked, perhaps, to say goodbye to herself, her life, her youth and beauty (though I did ask my girlfriend "Why does she always have to be naked to do her magic?"). This parallels the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa to forge Lightbringer, but that could be tendentious reading.

Maybe Melisandre is actually super old and will just keep doing some kind of Scooby-Doo disguise thing, I guess, but there's really nowhere for her character to go. She made a terrible mistake in supporting Stannis, and now the only other person who she felt any divine frisson with is apparently dead. Remember how she said she couldn't make another shadow demon baby with Stannis because it would take too much of his life force, basically? It seems like maybe she just gave up all of her own. I didn't think she was just undressing and going to bed for the night (especially because it was the middle of the day when she did that, remember?).
posted by clockzero at 8:13 PM on April 24, 2016 [7 favorites]


Vaes Dothrak sounds like the worst Crone Island ever.

Vaes Dothrak is the capitol and only city of the Dothraki. IIRC, it's where Daenerys ate the horse heart and Viserys got his "crown" so we've seen it before. So how much it sucks probably depends on how isolated the dosh khaleen are from the rest of the city.

(Damn I'm having to teach my phone a lot of new words tonight.)
posted by Jacqueline at 8:19 PM on April 24, 2016


I betting Melisandre is going to give up her last bit of lifeforce for Jon.
posted by sammyo at 8:19 PM on April 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


i hope he has to wear the jewelry for the rest of the series
posted by poffin boffin at 8:34 PM on April 24, 2016 [28 favorites]


I thought she was giving up her lifeforce for Jon as well, but then in the "Inside the Episode" thing after the show, the creators were talking about how they wanted to show how old Melisandre actually was, although they talked about "centuries", and I would expect someone that old's true self to look more like the Crypt Keeper.
posted by LionIndex at 8:45 PM on April 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


I thought this sort of sucked. Actually, I thought it really sucked. From a pacing perspective, from an acting perspective, production design, plot, awful, awful battle scenes. Everything in this was mediocre to outright bad. I'm hoping it picks up, because I otherwise felt a continual creeping disappointment as the show went on.
posted by codacorolla at 8:46 PM on April 24, 2016 [7 favorites]


I thought she was giving up her lifeforce for Jon as well, but then in the "Inside the Episode" thing after the show, the creators were talking about how they wanted to show how old Melisandre actually was, although they talked about "centuries", and I would expect someone that old's true self to look more like the Crypt Keeper.

This is probably the most boring character development reveal in the whole series, if so.

Also, like...why would the character take off her Youth Jewelry, get naked, and take a midday nap in the dead guy's bed? WTF
posted by clockzero at 8:49 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


I completely believe that unexpected Dothraki exchange "What is greater than seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time?" was inspired by the fantastic Life of Brian bit "What have the Romans ever done for us?"
posted by bluecore at 8:52 PM on April 24, 2016 [10 favorites]


Wow @ the people who didn't like this episode or thought it was boring. We were literally cheering and fist-pumping at our viewing and both my sister-in-law and I cried when Brienne swore her loyalty to Sansa.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:52 PM on April 24, 2016 [16 favorites]


The Brienne/Sansa scene was a nice callback to Cat/Brienne back in S2. And it was nice to see Brienne actually have something to do after staring at a window for a season.

As far as Melisandre goes, there's always been a ton of speculation that her necklace was important for her glamours...I'm not sure how to interpret the last scene, except as her somewhat giving up - she has lost Stannis, lost faith in her visions, and so is giving up. Hopefully she remembers what the Red God can do for the dead pretty quick.

I'm a little lost on a couple of fronts here - Thorne's defense of killing Snow is not unexpected, but - it's done. The wildlings are through the Wall. So you're killing him to prevent what, exactly, now? How is Snow going to further destroy the Watch beyond what he already did?

And Dorne...so you kill Doran and Trystane, leaving what? I honestly can't believe the Sand Snakes inherit any kind of power or control?

I don't know; it wasn't horrible, it just didn't do much for me. Hoping for more in coming weeks.
posted by nubs at 9:04 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


I completely believe that unexpected Dothraki exchange "What is greater than seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time?" was inspired by the fantastic Life of Brian bit "What have the Romans ever done for us?" yt

I assumed it was a riff on the "What is best in life?" bit from Conan the Barbarian.
posted by homunculus at 9:08 PM on April 24, 2016 [12 favorites]


I honestly can't believe the Sand Snakes inherit any kind of power or control?

please don't send me into the wikihole of "list of empires ruled by illegitimate heirs to the throne who slaughtered the legitimate ones in a bloody coup" because 01 that page definitely doesnt exist and 02 it sHOULD and i dont want to create it
posted by poffin boffin at 9:10 PM on April 24, 2016 [15 favorites]


We were literally cheering and fist-pumping at our viewing and both my sister-in-law and I cried when Brienne swore her loyalty to Sansa.

Yeah, that was a beautiful, thrilling moment. Gwendoline Christie and Sophie Turner made it feel like they were getting married, and in a way we'd like to think they were perhaps
posted by clockzero at 9:12 PM on April 24, 2016 [15 favorites]


Since this is for book-readers and all...

The Dorne plot has now gone so officially pear-shaped that it's impossible to make heads or tails of it, except that it appears that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are all being unimaginably stupid. My hope is that D&D have a decent idea from GRRM of where that whole storyline is going and are finding their own (albiet objectively worse so-far) way to get there. My fear is that they were just, like, "We already have Ellaria cast, so can't we just combine her with Arianne? Of course we can, who cares if their objectives are opposite? And when Arianne fucks up, the whole point of Doran's speech to her afterwards is about Quentyn. We're not using Quentyn, so what should we do with Doran? That was a rhetorical question, Evan OBVIOUSLY we're killing him and figuring it all out later... Don't forget to kill the Black Guy first, though. This is an action scene, after all..."

I don't know what to think of the Vaes Dothrak development yet. Dany has been coasting on her dragons and her titles a bit too much as of late. I'm eager to see her prove herself with neither.

I don't know that imprisonment has tempered Cersei any. Now that she's "free" I imagine she's drunker and more paranoid than ever. I expect her revenge to be tempestuous but more short-sighted than ever before, and probably ending in Tommen's death, if I were a bettin' man.

Nothing of Bran or Rickon yet, but it's not like you noticed.

Our only real question from the Tyrion/Varys scene should be "who was lurking in the shadows?" and my guess is "Quaith."

Sophie Turner gets my acting award for the episode, making me viscerally feel the icy water and hounds at their back, and totally selling the fealty scene (Brienne is far more practiced at swearing fealty than Sansa is at accepting it, and it was a beautiful moment.)
posted by Navelgazer at 9:12 PM on April 24, 2016 [9 favorites]


I thought Mel was bummed about Stannis and Jon so she just decided to do an extreme version of pantless to relax a little.
posted by gatorae at 9:13 PM on April 24, 2016 [15 favorites]


please don't send me into the wikihole of "list of empires ruled by illegitimate heirs to the throne who slaughtered the legitimate ones in a bloody coup" because 01 that page definitely doesnt exist and 02 it sHOULD and i dont want to create it

I don't want to send anybody to any wikihole, just can't see how the paramour of the Prince's dead brother and the various illegitimate children he left behind fit into a power structure in any kind of legit or quasi-legit way that someone might go along with in terms of actually ruling. I could buy them as acting as the power behind the "legit" ruler, which might have been an awesome way to use Trystane. Whatever.

Forget about it, nubs, it's Dornishtown.
posted by nubs at 9:15 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


I enjoyed this mainly because I feel like more happened in this episode than basically all of Storm of Swords. Yes, the Dorne plot is a dumpster fire, but it's pretty bad in the books, too.

I cheered out loud and fist-pumped when Brienne came riding in. Such a great moment.

I still don't believe Jon is dead dead.
posted by lunasol at 9:19 PM on April 24, 2016 [8 favorites]


william the bastard didnt have to stay in normandy to rule

NOW LOOK WHAT YOU DID IM IN THE WIKI
posted by poffin boffin at 9:20 PM on April 24, 2016 [12 favorites]


Don't forget to kill the Black Guy first, though. This is an action scene, after all...

Poor Areo Hotah. He was an interesting character in the books, but I guess the showrunners realized they didn't have any use for him since Arianne and Arys aren't on the show. The poor guy didn't even get to go out fighting.
posted by homunculus at 9:20 PM on April 24, 2016 [5 favorites]


totally selling the fealty scene

who was it who prompted sansa with the correct response, pod or theon?
posted by poffin boffin at 9:21 PM on April 24, 2016


Pod
posted by Jacqueline at 9:22 PM on April 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't want to send anybody to any wikihole, just can't see how the paramour of the Prince's dead brother and the various illegitimate children he left behind fit into a power structure in any kind of legit or quasi-legit way that someone might go along with in terms of actually ruling.

For one thing, I believe women can inherit titles in Dorne, so that's not an issue. For another, aren't there a lot of paramours? I can't believe this is the first time this has happened and I am willing to believe that the Dornes are cool with semi-legitimate heirs. Also, one of the main points of this whole series is that things like legitimacy matter less than the ability to seize and wield power. Hence: King Tommen.
posted by lunasol at 9:22 PM on April 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


We're not using Quentyn

Heh, when I saw all the smoke my first thought was Quentyn showed up and released the dragons.

Totally agree on Dorne--it's a complete mess.
posted by mama casserole at 9:22 PM on April 24, 2016




I thought Mel was bummed about Stannis and Jon so she just decided to do an extreme version of pantless to relax a little.

Ohhh, yes, that works for me. "When I get bummed out I take my shirt off because the bad feelings make me feel sweaty."
posted by rewil at 9:29 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's been a pretty hard few days on me, so I was inclined to think the problem was me until I read over this thread. It wasn't a bad episode, really, but it didn't move the plot forward a whole lot (notably, the scenes that advanced the plot the most were also the best scenes...hmmmm), and ended on a note that was distinctly more "huh?" than "oh wow what happens now." I was actually startled when the credits came up; it felt like I'd been watching for about fifteen minutes. That's less a compliment on the pacing and more a comment on how little happened.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:33 PM on April 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Our only real question from the Tyrion/Varys scene should be "who was lurking in the shadows?" and my guess is "Quaith."

Good eye.

I liked how they gave the audience a head-fake there; you almost think "oh, you criminally stupid twerps, you just wandered into a deserted courtyard in Mereen, you're about the get Harpy'd and OF COURSE YOU ARE" but then it's a totally different disaster. Nice visual storytelling, guys
posted by clockzero at 9:33 PM on April 24, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's been a pretty hard few days on me, so I was inclined to think the problem was me until I read over this thread. It wasn't a bad episode, really, but it didn't move the plot forward a whole lot

I feel like this episode was a whole lot of "so here's where we left off," and E2 is going to be a bit more plot-drivy.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:34 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Honestly, the Tyrion/Varys dialog mostly felt like a bunch of "as you know, Bob..." which is uncharacteristic of dialog between them, and kind of betrayed the fact that it was leading to a larger reveal. But I generally liked the episode so I'm just splitting hairs here.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:43 PM on April 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh mannnnnn, the Sansa/Brienne fealty scene. There was so much feeling in it that at the end I wanted Brienne to step up and give Sansa a big ol' hug. Not that they would, of course, but that's what headcanons are for.
posted by Alioth at 9:46 PM on April 24, 2016 [7 favorites]


Like I said in the noob thread, I thought half the episode worked really well (the Northern stuff in particular was great) and a bit less than half was checking boxes. Game of Thrones is always best when it is more focused on fewer storylines and that generally doesn't happen in the season premiers.

Oddly enough the novels are also better when they are more focused on fewer storylines. If fucking Quentyn or the rest of those losers traveling to Mereen show up I'm going to punch the screen. Nobody cares. NOBODY CARES, GEORGE.

Over/under on Jon's resurrection? I could see end of episode 2 or end of episode 3.
posted by Justinian at 9:50 PM on April 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh. Doran's son was an idiot. The minute he pulled out his sword and turned to face Sand Snake #2 I was like, "you stupid asshole, she's going to stab you through the back." Annnnd... she did.
posted by Justinian at 9:52 PM on April 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Over/under on Jon's resurrection? I could see end of episode 2 or end of episode 3.

My money is on end of episode 3.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:55 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think they'll go back to alternating which plotlines they cover in each episode and since they left us with a WTF moment at Castle Black then I think they'll leave that hanging for episode 2 and then return there in episode 3.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:03 PM on April 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


Are there enough plotlines for that? We didn't cover Bran... and what else? More Iron Islanders?
posted by Justinian at 10:06 PM on April 24, 2016


Oh yes, the kingsmoot. Tower of Joy too.
posted by mama casserole at 10:08 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


I cannot fucking WAIT to find out what REALLY happened at the Tower of Joy.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:09 PM on April 24, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wow @ the people who didn't like this episode or thought it was boring.

Overall I was mostly positive about it, but it varied by storyline. I think the Northern arcs are off to a good start: I love that Brienne and Pod have finally teamed up with Sansa and Theon (and perhaps Pod would make a good paramour for the Wardeness of the North someday.) I like what's happening with Mel, Davos is doing great and I'm glad they're using Dolorous Edd.

I'm glad Jaime is back in King's Landing with Cercei. I'm looking forward to what comes next for them.

Daenarys's arc is off to an underwhelming start, imo. The last we saw her in the books, she was sitting with her dragon eating a horse when the Khalasar encountered her. Like a boss! But here she's essentially been reduced to a damsel in distress waiting for the heroes to come rescue her. Meh.

I was neutral about Arya's training with Waif-Stick. It might get interesting or it might just be cliched. I do hope they use her blindness as an excuse to finally develop her warging abilities. Give us wolf dreams!

Dorne is so bad I don't even count it. I was hoping they'd just leave it out.

I am looking forward to next week. I'm very curious to see what they do with Bran and the 1001-Eyed-Raven. And the Ironborn, of course. And I have this strange craving for pie...
posted by homunculus at 10:10 PM on April 24, 2016 [4 favorites]


Are there enough plotlines for that? We didn't cover Bran... and what else? More Iron Islanders?

IIRC, it looks like next week is Bran, King's Landing, Sansa, Arya, Winterfell, and maybe a bit of Mereen? But no Dany or Castle Black

Whereas episode 3 title "Oathbreaker" sounds like a Night's Watch and/or Brienne-centric episode.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:17 PM on April 24, 2016


I'm all for more of the Brienne and Podrick Shooooooow!!
posted by bq at 10:17 PM on April 24, 2016 [4 favorites]


I do hope they use her blindness as an excuse to finally develop her warging abilities. Give us wolf dreams!

She's gonna become Daredevil.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:19 PM on April 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


I understand why a Books Only thread still exists. I do.

But on the face of it, this is some funny shit.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:20 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Remember when people were saying "we could totally publish George's unfinished 6th book before the show starts back up" ... yeah, so do I.

If there was ever an episode where I wanted a 2 minute "Last time on Game of Thrones" recap intro, this is the episode. I totally forgot where everything left off last season, and where we are in terms of tracking (or deviating) from the books, and threads that may yet be pulled back in to this season.

And for those who have read the parts of The Winds of Winter that have been released in one form or another, is it worth tracking down the bits and pieces? I'm tempted, but I'd like to hear if people find it more annoying to get a semi-serialized view of the book or fun to take a peak at the book as it develops.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:22 PM on April 24, 2016


The books still give a ton of useful background, and Arya's storyline is, at least, still within that realm a bit. So I think that's enough of a reason for a books-only thread.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:22 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Are the preview chapters and stuff revealed in interviews fair game here? Because that would make the books thread more relevant.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:24 PM on April 24, 2016


I'm pissed that Melisandre didn't use her powers to pull a Thoros of Myr and resurrect Jon. I so badly wanted the scene where she ages to be her lifeforce traveling into Jon, but nooooo it's all to show her true age?! *gnash* (Also, when I take my rightful place as Bitch-Queen of the Known Universe, I'm hiring Thoros of Myr to be on standby nonstop in case I die.)

Brienne saving the motherfucking day? YES PLEASE.
posted by culfinglin at 10:27 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


So is the new theory that Melisande is going to make herself over to look like Jon Snow?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 PM on April 24, 2016


Someone in the n00b thread pointed out: "Well Jon's standing up one way or the other.....unless they burn the body."

What if we do get an IceZombie!Jon but he's somehow more intelligent and less bloodthirsty than your typical ice zombie? That would throw things for a loop.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:36 PM on April 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


I thought she was giving up her lifeforce for Jon as well, but then in the "Inside the Episode" thing after the show, the creators were talking about how they wanted to show how old Melisandre actually was,

I hadn't even thought of the possibility she was giving up her lifeforce for Jon. I'm not sure I understand how the creators' comments would be in conflict with this theory, though? They're obviously not going to reveal what was really going on in the scene, and there certainly has to be more significance to her crawling into Jon's bed than just her general weirdness. It could be that the creators wanted to reveal her true age AND that she was in the middle of some serious last-ditch magic there.

At the end of last season, wasn't Cersei's head shaved? I thought it was but maybe it was just cropped. I was trying to figure out why enough time had passed for her hair to have grown back in. In any case, what happened to Frankenhero and Cersei's trial-by-combat?
posted by torticat at 11:03 PM on April 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Frankenhero (a.k.a. Robert Strong) was waiting behind Cersei at the docks as she watched Myrcella's ship roll in.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:11 PM on April 24, 2016


So how much it sucks probably depends on how isolated the dosh khaleen are from the rest of the city.

I think how much Vaes Dothrak sucks has to do with the fact that you go to the temple and don't come out until you die, so it's pretty isolated and sucks a lot.

If Danaerys is actually taken there, I wonder if she will end up liberating all the other khal widows along with herself? Maybe she comes out of this with a khalasar of women ready to kick the asses of some harpy sons.
posted by torticat at 11:13 PM on April 24, 2016 [15 favorites]


CLEGANEBOWL '16 GET HYPE
posted by Justinian at 11:14 PM on April 24, 2016 [16 favorites]


I thought this episode was kinda plodding and on the nose but when it was good such as the Sansa and Brienne scene and and when it was bad (sandsnakes were cheesy and bad acting again. why oh why? it seems like the SS segments were filmed by a completely different director who never was in contact with the main crew. if this is the best SS footage they had to choose from...yikes)

And how freakin' convenient was it that Ser Jorah finds Danerys ring in that huge field right where he dismounted his horse?

I am thrilled that a new season has started but this episode fell short of expectations. One good thing...about Arya, she's been stripped of her Arya-ness and is about to go through a "rebirth" and kick even more ass.
posted by futz at 11:14 PM on April 24, 2016


And how freakin' convenient was it that Ser Jorah finds Danerys ring in that huge field right where he dismounted his horse?

You mean in the only area not trampled by horses, when all the ground in a large circle around that area had been trampled by horses?
posted by Jacqueline at 11:22 PM on April 24, 2016 [10 favorites]


I had the impression from that scene that the basic flaw in Melisandre's faith is that she was using the powers granted her by the Lord of Light to extend her own life, which isn't wrong, per se, because she's still doing the Red Hooha's work, but there's obviously a self-interested element there. Thus, her faith isn't strong enough to resurrect others, but she doesn't understand this until she meets Thoros and hears about his multiple resurrections. Dropping the choker and climbing into Snow's bed is submission to what she now understands is the level of faith she needs to have.
posted by fatbird at 11:22 PM on April 24, 2016 [6 favorites]


when Brienne swore her loyalty to Sansa.

Then and Now.
posted by homunculus at 11:25 PM on April 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, I guess the Sand Snakes tested better in Peoria than Alexander Siddig? Sex sells, kids.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:31 PM on April 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


both my sister-in-law and I cried when Brienne swore her loyalty to Sansa.

Me too. It's rare on this show that we get that kind of victory and it was so good. All hail Queen Sansa.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:37 PM on April 24, 2016 [5 favorites]


Maybe... that's how the story goes? Martin told them the broad outline after all.
posted by Justinian at 11:37 PM on April 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


You mean in the only area not trampled by horses, when all the ground in a large circle around that area had been trampled by horses?

Damn, I'll watch the scene again. Thanks for the heads up. I may not have watched as carefully as I thought. I always watch each episode at least twice. I will report back. :)
posted by futz at 11:46 PM on April 24, 2016


So, I guess the Sand Snakes tested better in Peoria than Alexander Siddig? Sex sells, kids.

Remember the scene where Tyene flashed Bronn? According to io9 that was the actor's audition scene.
posted by homunculus at 11:50 PM on April 24, 2016


I'm pissed that Melisandre didn't use her powers to pull a Thoros of Myr and resurrect Jon.

R+L=JOHNNY STONEHEART
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:51 PM on April 24, 2016 [5 favorites]


Damn, I'll watch the scene again.

The relevant scene is from last year's season finale. That's when they were all circling her, which would have created the pattern in the tracks that Jorah and Daario noticed.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:07 AM on April 25, 2016


Maybe... that's how the story goes? Martin told them the broad outline after all.

He's also complained about how Robb's wife is dead on the show but alive in Winds of Winter so I think HBO has just been doing its own thing for some time now.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:09 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


Shit, I just remembered that with Grantland gone, there's no more Ask the Maester.
posted by homunculus at 12:13 AM on April 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


I am actually shocked I am the first to mention this, but I'm pretty sure the reason the Sand Snakes had to actually kill Trystane instead of sideline him, along with the "no more weak men" line, is because they are actually bringing us Arianne Martell. At last.

The blindness is an obvious warg reveal setup, which may be useful if we need Ghost for the Jon-resurrection.

Jon has to be resurrected alive or ToJ means nothing.

Melisandre being super old makes me wonder who she actually is: Mr. Corb thinks she is "Maggy", the witch who foretold for Cersei.

I have long thought that Dany ignored Vaes Dothrak at her peril: they make the laws for all the Dothraki. Conquer boring crone island!

I am wondering also if they are having Roose set up a belated need for Jeyne Pool.
posted by corb at 12:29 AM on April 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


I still don't believe Jon is dead dead.

He's only mostly dead but his cause isn't as noble as true love so who knows?
posted by scalefree at 1:03 AM on April 25, 2016 [15 favorites]


I wonder if they're in the process of merging Dreamy Jon Snow and Lady Stoneheart.

It seems like an unlikely mashup (especially since I am still *sure* that Dany and Jon are Martin's OTP) but dang: DJS has been dead for a while now.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 2:18 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


At least it's really, really cold there. Remember, you're not truly dead until you're warm and dead.
posted by Justinian at 2:56 AM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, he's dead. The interesting thing to me is that by killing him they released him of his night's watch vows. His watch is ended.

When he comes back (at the end of, I bet, episode 3) he is technically a free man and heir to the throne of Westeros (R+L etc etc). At least, if I were his lawyer that's what I would argue.

I bet Davos and the gang prevail, they burn him to give him a proper send off, and his body survives the fire. Then Melisandre either gives up her magically extended life for him or whatever.
posted by lydhre at 3:07 AM on April 25, 2016 [15 favorites]


Ask The Maester should be back in some form via The Ringer.
posted by Rock Steady at 3:11 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


But I generally liked the episode so I'm just splitting hairs here.

splitting heirs

ftfy

rip trystane
posted by lalochezia at 4:53 AM on April 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


I really hadn't considered the possibility of someone clamoring as Jon Snow,but that would be interesting.
posted by drezdn at 5:17 AM on April 25, 2016


I think this is one thing where butterflies fail, too - if we had seen Lady Stoneheart, then we would know even long dead Jon could be resurrected.
posted by corb at 5:50 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


At the end of last season, wasn't Cersei's head shaved?

I rewatched it last night and it's just cropped at the end of last season. The nun-folk take kitchen knives basically and just hack at her head like a kid with a Barbie doll.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:53 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have to agree with "death" releasing Jon Snow of his vows; this was done in the Wheel of Time extended editions (i.e. Anything after book three).
posted by tilde at 5:55 AM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


Melisandre being super old makes me wonder who she actually is: Mr. Corb thinks she is "Maggy", the witch who foretold for Cersei.

She reveals her background in her POV chapter. Here's her wiki page if you're interested.

Maggy, meanwhile, is thought to be an ancestor of Jeyne Westerling.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:56 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


So is the new theory that Melisande is going to make herself over to look like Jon Snow?

Hmmm. They did go to some pains to show that the Faceless Men have face-swap "technology" in the "Previously on..." segment.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:11 AM on April 25, 2016


If (when) Snow is resurrected, then I'm not sure Harrington has the acting chops to really pull that off. Being red godded tends to make people stranger.
posted by codacorolla at 6:19 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


On the whole I thought this was a bog standard GoT episode 1. Mostly a re-cap with a couple action beats, tying up loose ends that didn't make the finale and a few "weird things unexplained" to hold future interest.

The Tyrian-Varys dialog felt like the opening of a Law and Order episode, like they were about to discover a body in a parking garage.
posted by French Fry at 6:37 AM on April 25, 2016 [15 favorites]


"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death."

On the other hand, "I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

So his watch ends, but his pledge doesn't IMO.

Did anyone else wonder why Davos was staring so long at Jon's blood? Had it not frozen yet (blood of the dragon)? It looked pretty frozen to me. I didn't see any obvious rorschach dragons or anything.

I was just happy to see Sansa get a hug at all. And then the Brienne scene stole the show. Sophie's acting was really, really good in this episode. And Gwendolyn's is always spot-on.

Dorne just seemed hurried and pointless. Arya's plotline seemed a bit cliché. It was nice of the Dothraki to leave Jorah a bullseye. An X would have been better. I actually felt a little sorry for Cersei and Jaime (but mostly for Myrcella), and was pleasantly surprised that Cersei was actually aware of how horrible a person she is. The ships were probably burned to create a need for the Ironborn.
posted by tempestuoso at 6:42 AM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


I can't decide which thread to put my D&D recap in, but since I'm a reader I'll put it here. 5e rules apply unless otherwise noted.

In this episode of D&D's D&D campaign:
• Jon clearly fails his three death saves. We're out of the time window for revivify to work (within 1 min of death), so we're going to have to rely on some old-fashioned raise dead. Or maybe reincarnation???
• Ser Alliser aces a Persuasion check (I can't imagine his Cha bonus is very high, though)
• Theon & Sansa pass Con checks to cross the frozen river (house rules / DM's discretion), but fail their Stealth/Hide checks.
• Brienne quickly dispatches a handful of low-level NPCs, and even Pod levels up. I've assumed up to now that Brienne is a Fighter, perhaps of the Battlemaster path, but now I'd suggest instead that she's a Paladin and has taken the Oath of Devotion path.
• in Dorne we see a lot of sneak attacks for double damage. We'll rule that massive traumas killed instantly, with no death saves.
• Tyrion and Varys get middling results on their multiple Insight checks
• Jorah apparently rolls well on a Survival/Tracking check, as well as an Investigation check, but fails yet another Con check to arrest the spread of greyscale.
• Daenerys flubs an Intimidation check
• Arya should already have proficiency in the quarterstaff, but her blindness condition is giving her disadvatange on all her rolls. Blindsight is an ability that Rogues get only at 14th level, so she clearly has a bit of leveling to do.
• does Melisandre, who I've assumed all this time was a Priest of the Fire domain, also have levels in Wizard, of the Illusion school?
• her age could be explained a couple ways: there are multiple class abilities that slow or stop aging (Druids, certain Paladins), but more likely is that she's prepping herself to become a lich (which IIRC demands Cleric and Wizard abilities).

I really need my PHB and DMG handy when doing these recaps...
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 7:25 AM on April 25, 2016 [49 favorites]


Maggy, meanwhile, is thought to be an ancestor of Jeyne Westerling.

Seems to me like Cersei misheard maegi.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:35 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


BUMPER-STICKER IDEA: Podrick rules! Theon drools!
posted by Fizz at 7:58 AM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


So I keep coming back to a line from the Grantland recap of last year's final episode:

My greatest frustration with this show isn’t its gender politics or its general air of pessimism and doom. It’s that I’m constantly cheated out of the time necessary to arrive at a place where critical actions feel dictated by critical characters, and not the other way around.

and feeling like the applicability of it is becoming greater. What works really well in this episode is a couple of things:

-Sansa and Brienne finally, finally connecting works because we've spent enough time with both of them over the years to have that moment be meaningful (and what, exactly, happened to the dogs in that scene, by the way?) and understand the weight and importance of Sansa finally claiming some power; critical characters making critical decisions. (It might also be the fact that after watching several years of Sansa basically being a pawn in everyone else's game and Brienne spending last season watching a window, it was nice to see them have something to do).

-Davos brings a quiet weight to the events at Castle Black, and the slow building conflict between him and Thorne works because, again, we've spent enough time together with both characters and the setting to understand the consequences behind the decisions being made. It feels like we have critical characters making critical decisions.

-In Dorne, however, Elliara and the Sand Snakes kill off Doran and Trystane (and we'll just elide over the fact that the last time we saw everybody, Trystane was on the ship going to KL and the Sand Snakes were standing on the dock watching it leave; somehow, two Sandsnakes got onto that boat because it's convenient, I guess) and I'm left to feel that it was done because Elliara is being made into a critical character, not because of any other reason. I don't care about Doran or Trystane or Elliara or anybody involved, nor are the consequences of any of these actions clear or important to me - I'm being told that this is important, but there hasn't been any investment that makes me think that any of it matters - just sudden violence and people dying, which is supposed to give this the weight it needs to be important.
posted by nubs at 7:59 AM on April 25, 2016 [11 favorites]


and what, exactly, happened to the dogs in that scene, by the way?

I'm going with "sworded in half offscreen because America probably didn't want to see the good guys chop up a bunch of doggies, no matter how vicious"
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:09 AM on April 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


My friend might have accidentally gotten me on the Sansa/Brienne train (hey, at a certain point you have to make your own fun with a show this long-running). It would actually make some narrative sense for, at the very least, Sansa to develop a crush on Brienne, because Sansa's whole arc has been "naive girl who believes in fairytale happy endings is brutally disabused of those notions," but here comes Brienne out of nowhere to be ALMOST exactly the noble savior Sansa probably always fantasized about, with just one minor difference...
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:12 AM on April 25, 2016 [22 favorites]


What Is Your ‘Game of Thrones’ Management Style? - "Welcome to the Westeros Street Journal"
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:12 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm going with "sworded in half offscreen because America probably didn't want to see the good guys chop up a bunch of doggies, no matter how vicious"

"But they'll be perfectly ok with the black guy getting stabbed in the back!" Yeah, I find the nods to audience sensibilities very peculiar at times on this show, so I was being fairly tongue in cheek.

That said, I was completely prepared to snark on the final scene that involved Melisandre getting naked, except that they actually used that moment to do something - to show us a character who was vulnerable, who had all of her illusions stripped away both literal and metaphorical.
posted by nubs at 8:15 AM on April 25, 2016 [9 favorites]


Yeah I think (sadly?) people would be really impacted by watching Brienne and Pod murder some dogs. Because people really love dogs. There is still a lot of outrage over dire-wolf killing, which seems maybe misplaced given all the other outrages the show has paraded before us.

Also CGI Dogs=Money so easier to have them vanish.
posted by French Fry at 8:16 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


Actually, I'm just now remembering the time I posted an FPP about a serial killer and several people requested a warning because it contained a brief passage about animal abuse. Which, once I got those requests I was happy to email a mod to get the warning put in, but I thought it was pretty bizarre. (And for that matter, there was the whole thing on Hannibal where the producers had to swear up and down that none of the dogs would ever die, when beloved human characters were routinely getting murdered and eaten.) Some people just REALLY don't want to deal with that stuff.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:20 AM on April 25, 2016 [7 favorites]


I just want to say that Nutmeg's D&D recaps of the episode are incredible, and the main reason I signed into Metafilter, so I could favorite and then say in a comment how they make me really happy.

TWO GREAT NERD TASTES, EVEN BETTER TOGETHER.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:24 AM on April 25, 2016 [9 favorites]


There is still a lot of outrage over dire-wolf killing, which seems maybe misplaced given all the other outrages the show has paraded before us.

It it isn't just GoT from what I know; there is a long history of shows/movies avoiding showing certain kinds of death, especially with dogs/animals, while being full-on with things like sexual violence, violence towards children, etc. We're funny in how & what is acceptable to us in terms of depicted violence.
posted by nubs at 8:27 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anyone have any ideas why they're being coy with Stannis' corpse? TV logic tends to be that you're only officially dead once you see the corpse. Characters have only alluded to his death in a way that, so far, makes me suspicious of some reversal.
posted by codacorolla at 8:31 AM on April 25, 2016


Anyone have any ideas why they're being coy with Stannis' corpse? TV logic tends to be that you're only officially dead once you see the corpse. Characters have only alluded to his death in a way that, so far, makes me suspicious of some reversal.

Well, we've clearly seen Jon's corpse, and we all expect him to be back. So not seeing Stannis might just be the true indication that he is gone.
posted by nubs at 8:34 AM on April 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


But also: I don't care if parts of the episode were clunky. What else did people expect from the first episode of the season? And that single scene with Brienne kneeling in the snow in front of Sansa, and Sansa taking Brienne's oath with a little help from Pod, did more emotionally for me than the entire fucking last book.

Also, I don't care if the line about Varys's cock being missing was clunky and a little eyeroll inducing. At least Tyrion is in Mereen with Varys, and not in wondering where whores go for the 10,000th attempt of GRRM trying to make me feel like I should forgivie Tyrion for murdering Shae because he just feels SO BAD ABOUT IT. And I would totally watch a show about show!Tyrion and Varys investigating and solving murders.

Also, not a huge fan of the slow-rolling attempt to rehab Theon, but until my illusions and hopes are stripped away, I'm choosing to believe that the show will lead us on, and maybe even let him do some cool stuff, and then Sansa is just going to fucking SHANK HIM him/command somebody to murder him when it's politically feasible because THE NORTH REMEMBERS.

Also, I love the parallel that neither of the Stark daughters have their dire wolves anymore -- instead of being able to command a fucking murder-ass wolf, each of them had to find other ways to protect themselves, Sansa by honing her political skills/finding and finally accepting help from people she can trust, and Arya by learning mystic assasin skills.

Also, team troll-the-boob-brigade, by showing us Melisandrew's hot boobs, and then giving us an equal eyeful of crone boobs.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:34 AM on April 25, 2016 [15 favorites]


Anyone have any ideas why they're being coy with Stannis' corpse?

He's the next reek.
posted by avalonian at 8:36 AM on April 25, 2016


Nah, Stannis the Mannis has been Bannised. He's dead, Jim.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:36 AM on April 25, 2016


Also, I don't care if the line about Varys's cock being missing was clunky and a little eyeroll inducing

What bugged me most about that scene was not the line about Varys being a eunuch, it was that Varys - Master of Whisperers, The Spider, who has shown himself to be quite capable of moving about in disguise and unknown, has to be told by Tyrion that they are safe because they are dressed up as humble merchants visiting Mereen.

I want to take it as Varys being unimpressed with Tyrion's amateur efforts.
posted by nubs at 8:39 AM on April 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


I hope he is. The way the scene was shot was just fucking bizzare. Not that this show is ever particularly visually interesting, but that crossed the line into confusing. The only evidence to the contrary is that his arc in the books feels unfinished with him dying at Winterfell.
posted by codacorolla at 8:39 AM on April 25, 2016


I can barely remember what actually happens at Winterfell in the books, but it involves Mance, who's totally dead in the show, right? And Asha/Yara, who... when was the last time we saw HER?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:44 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mance and some wildling women spirit Jeyne Poole out of Winterfell, sending Bolton into a bit of a tizzy.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:46 AM on April 25, 2016


I can barely remember what actually happens at Winterfell in the books, but it involves Mance, who's totally dead in the show, right? And Asha/Yara, who... when was the last time we saw HER?

Mance and some wildling women infiltrate Winterfell, while Bolton presides over the wedding of Ramsay to fArya/Jeyne in a castle full of Freys and Northern Lords whose loyalty is questionable (Manderly! Fuck Yeah!), while the snow builds outside and the occasional body of a Bolton loyalist shows up inside. Mance and the wildling women help Theon and Jeyne to escape, but there are indications that they are also there to do something else, possibly finding something that might be in the crypts.

Meanwhile, Stannis takes Deepwood Motte and wins the allegiance of some Northern Houses, including the Mormonts and the Glovers. Those two Houses were amongst the witnesses at the signing of Robb's final will before the Red Wedding, and were the two that were sent to find Greywater Watch and so missed out on being killed/captured, etc. After Deepwood Motte, Stannis captures Asha Greyjoy, and has her as a hostage when his march "bogs down" at the end of ADwD.
posted by nubs at 8:56 AM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


• in Dorne we see a lot of sneak attacks for double damage. We'll rule that massive traumas killed instantly, with no death saves.

Point of order, DM? Sneak attacks do not do double damage, but vary by rogue level. The Sand Snakes are probably at least, what, 9th, 10th level? Should be plenty of extra damage to take out your average NPC, but still.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:07 AM on April 25, 2016


Mance and some wildling women infiltrate Winterfell, while...

Man, none of that stuff is even vaguely close to what's currently happening.

The wiki says that the last time we saw Yara was a season and a half ago, when she went to rescue Theon and then declared that Theon was dead and took off. Has she just been chilling on the Iron Islands since then, I guess?

Actually, it would be fun if they gave Random Other Viking Guy's storyline to her and it turned out SHE was the person who burned all the boats in the harbor of Meereen! Why the hell not, at this point?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:09 AM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh yeah also - I had forgotten Trystane was on the ship to KL too. Which means the Sand Snakes got him while he was in KL - which means Cersei also has the corpse of a Dornish prince on her hands.
posted by corb at 9:11 AM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


(and what, exactly, happened to the dogs in that scene, by the way?)

They get to live at a beautiful farm upstate, where they can run and play all day
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:17 AM on April 25, 2016 [35 favorites]


You are correct, Rock Steady! This is why I resolve to have my manuals handy when writing future recaps.

As for Stannis, he's dead and is known dead: Roose offers to pay gold to whoever killed him – indicating the killer is unknown.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 9:31 AM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


The saddest thing about Stannis being dead is that we're unlikely to see the hypothesized Night Lamp frozen lake battle play out. (although Jon + Davos could also probably come up with that strategy.)

Also I just remembered that Book-Sansa is still at the Eyrie. I didn't like shoving her into the plot last season, but this whole thing with Brienne sure seems like a better way to mold her into a real leader than having her sit at court in the mountains.
posted by Wulfhere at 9:42 AM on April 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


I thought the part where Pod provides Sansa the prompt for her side of the oath was a great bit of story telling. It accomplished several thing including: 1) reminding us that there are still people in this story that believe in the protocol of the land and that adhering to the protocol is a form of maintaining honor, 2) reminding us that Sansa was raised and trained to be part of the court and ruling class - she isnt just an accident of circumstance and 3) reinforcing Pod's importance to the story (because, I just love that guy).
posted by double bubble at 9:49 AM on April 25, 2016 [18 favorites]


Point of order, DM? Sneak attacks do not do double damage, but vary by rogue level. The Sand Snakes are probably at least, what, 9th, 10th level? Should be plenty of extra damage to take out your average NPC, but still.

I'm wondering if it wasn't a critical hit on the backstab; or if the character has taken the Assassin archetype and was ruled as striking by surprise.
posted by nubs at 9:56 AM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


Let's be honest with ourselves here, the DM didn't roll shit for any of that Dorne stuff.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:03 AM on April 25, 2016 [23 favorites]


It does kinda feel like the DM is winging that part of the campaign, for sure.
posted by nubs at 10:03 AM on April 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


The disappearing hounds got to me, too (I posted in the show only thread before this one opened). It wouldn't have bothered me except by all accounts these are supposedly really vicious hunting dogs with a taste for human flesh. And Theon even tells Sansa it'd be better to die from crossing the river than to let the dogs find them. And then the dogs do find Sansa but they just kind of bark a bit and then vanish when a fight breaks out.
posted by mama casserole at 10:06 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sometimes you just have to kill off a bunch of NPCs by narrative fiat because you've finally come to terms with the fact that a particular subplot just isn't going anywhere, despite all the worldbuilding you put into it.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:07 AM on April 25, 2016


The missing hounds have been found; they're in good care.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 10:10 AM on April 25, 2016 [22 favorites]


The dogs were ordered off, iirc. "Resist" or something? Maybe "return"? Also it's maybe worth noting that Theon has seen the hounds devour people, but Ramsay Snow presumably does not want to kill his wife with hounds.
posted by corb at 10:11 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


I betting Melisandre is going to give up her last bit of lifeforce for Jon.

And then she will leave to join all the other space vampires hibernating on that giant spaceship....
posted by happyroach at 10:11 AM on April 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sometimes you just have to kill off a bunch of NPCs by narrative fiat because you've finally come to terms with the fact that a particular subplot just isn't going anywhere, despite all the worldbuilding you put into it.

*looks side-eye at the Six-Pointed Crown*

/extremely in-joke voice
posted by Rock Steady at 10:18 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


I finally get HBO and I end up watching it the next day... The most interesting thing about this episode was the added *squick* to the Stannis death stroke in the freakin' previouslies. At least they learned from their mistakes.

I betting Melisandre is going to give up her last bit of lifeforce for Jon.

I wonder. In the books Beric does it for Cat, but Missandre is more of a Thoros. Then again, D&D have a budget that GRRM doesn't.


I was neutral about Arya's training with Waif-Stick. It might get interesting or it might just be cliched. I do hope they use her blindness as an excuse to finally develop her warging abilities. Give us wolf dreams!


Cat dreams
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:41 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


Those two Houses were amongst the witnesses at the signing of Robb's final will before the Red Wedding, and were the two that were sent to find Greywater Watch and so missed out on being killed/captured, etc.

Has Greywater Watch even been mentioned in the show? It seemed like such an important and mysterious strategic asset in the books, but like the Great Northern Conspiracy theory, it's been so blatantly missing from the show that I am beginning to doubt its overall relevance.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:50 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I want Brienne/Sansa/Pod/Theon to form the Westerosi version of the A-Team now.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:53 AM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


I want Theon to get thrown away like the human garbage he is.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:56 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


To be fair, Theon would be the Mad Dog Murdock in my hypothetical A-Team set-up.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:57 AM on April 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


Who's the face man then?
posted by some loser at 11:00 AM on April 25, 2016


Pod, obviously. The ladies love him!
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:01 AM on April 25, 2016 [10 favorites]


I had to rewatch the Brienne/Sansa scene cus it was so good, but not before brushing up on their last meeting where Sansa snubs her.

And on a second watching, I still can't tell how/where Theon stabs that soldier in the back since that soldier's entire back is covered by a shield.
posted by thetruthisjustalie at 11:18 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nah, Stannis the Mannis has been Bannised. He's dead, Jim.

Dead forever. There's no way Brienne didn't kill the crap out of him. My feeling about the way that scene was shot was that Brienne would have had us look respectfully away; what she did was justice, not vengeance. But she would have hacked at that motherfucker all day if needed.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:25 AM on April 25, 2016 [10 favorites]


And on a second watching, I still can't tell how/where Theon stabs that soldier in the back since that soldier's entire back is covered by a shield.

Theon is obviously extremely traumatized, but underneath that, he's really fucking angry
posted by clockzero at 11:28 AM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I still can't tell how/where Theon stabs that soldier in the back since that soldier's entire back is covered by a shield.

My friends had the same question and so last night we did an analysis where I pointed out how because of the way the shield tapers, the kidneys were exposed. However, a stab to the kidneys is not instant-death. Few stabs probably would be. But that didn't stop Areo Hotah from falling over dead, either.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:31 AM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


tempestuoso: Did anyone else wonder why Davos was staring so long at Jon's blood? Had it not frozen yet (blood of the dragon)? It looked pretty frozen to me. I didn't see any obvious rorschach dragons or anything.

"Oh shit, that's a lot of blood. He's not coming back from that, is he? Oh wait, Melisandre ... hmm, that's still a lot of blood."
posted by filthy light thief at 11:32 AM on April 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


nubs: It’s that I’m constantly cheated out of the time necessary to arrive at a place where critical actions feel dictated by critical characters, and not the other way around.

It's surprising to me that so many of the criticisms of the show apply to the books and vice versa. I guess it shouldn't; it is a relatively faithful adaptation, about as faithful as possible for a series of novels of this scale, but I had actually hoped the show would become less faithful as the books started meandering aimlessly. To me, most problems with the show aren't from a lack of fidelity but from being too faithful.

I think the last couple of books are less than the first few because of so many new characters we don't know and don't care about and too little time spent on the ones we do know and care about. And that's exactly the problem the show is running into! Care about Sansa and Brienne! Care about Arya! Care about Jaime and Cersei and Cleganebowl. But the Dorne Clown Party? The new Dothraki idiots? Quentyn Coldwhoever and so on? Don't give a shit.

The show should have tossed all of that into the recycling bin!

I'm still glued to the screen, though.
posted by Justinian at 11:33 AM on April 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


Regarding the back-shields, maybe those trackers opted for the lighter "tarp shields" which are great for rain and wind, and don't slow you down as much when you're running after dogs and guys on horse-back, but clearly lack the general "shielding" function of your standard wooden or metal shield when it comes to getting stabbed.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:34 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


I just watched that fight scene again, and Theon runs the Bolton man through the neck (a little on the right side).
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 11:34 AM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wasn't quite clear about the place where Khal widows are sent...is this place supposed to be a tomb (*GULP*) or a sexy retirement home for retired Khaleesis where they can just chill and play Dothraki Scrabble and eat something other than horse meat?
posted by Dr. Zira at 11:38 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


Vaes Dothraki is the city where all the former khaleeshi live; it is about the only city the Dothraki have, and we saw it back in S1, when Dany ate a heart and Viserys got a crown.
posted by nubs at 11:41 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know, Bronn was on that boat with Jaime ALLLLLLLL the rest of the way back from Dorne. Is anyone else kind of pissed that we missed out on those conversations?
posted by Navelgazer at 11:42 AM on April 25, 2016 [17 favorites]


corb: I have long thought that Dany ignored Vaes Dothrak at her peril: they make the laws for all the Dothraki. Conquer boring crone island!

Or, she finally finds people who want her to lead them. Sure, they make the rules, but it's all the swaggering Khals who impose it for the most part. If this season is all about the women finally getting control across the board/world, maybe she is elevated from weird white-haired girl to bold leader of the political minds of the Dothraki.

And then she gets her dragons back, and can really kick ass again.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:43 AM on April 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Oh shit, that's a lot of blood. He's not coming back from that, is he? Oh wait, Melisandre ... hmm, that's still a lot of blood."

Looking at that scene again, it's actually not a huge amount of blood. I figured that was what gave Davos pause -- it didn't look like Jon bled out.
posted by clockzero at 11:49 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


meanwhile hot blacksmith has been rowing that tiny fucking boat for 3 years now

when will he stop rowing
posted by poffin boffin at 11:49 AM on April 25, 2016 [23 favorites]


I figured that was what gave Davos pause -- it didn't look like Jon bled out

I thought maybe he saw that the blood puddle was shaped like something ~*mysterious and/or magical*~ so I went to pause and look at it more closely but instead I accidentally changed the channel which made me so mad that i fell off the couch
posted by poffin boffin at 11:51 AM on April 25, 2016 [25 favorites]


It's surprising to me that so many of the criticisms of the show apply to the books and vice versa. I guess it shouldn't; it is a relatively faithful adaptation, about as faithful as possible for a series of novels of this scale, but I had actually hoped the show would become less faithful as the books started meandering aimlessly. To me, most problems with the show aren't from a lack of fidelity but from being too faithful.

Well, you and I disagree about a few (or more than a few) things when it comes to books vs. show, but yeah - that criticism of critical characters dictating critical actions applies to both in places (I mean, in all honestly, it is a rubric you can apply to any story in terms of how it is working). I guess I view some of the wandering in the books as an attempt (and we can argue about how successful the various efforts are) to give the characters the weight and meaning to have their actions mean something; on screen, it is just...wandering, and then something happens. Usually somebody dies.

To me, while the books have gone too far into the weeds in places, the show has not only gone to the weeds on occasion but made some odd choices about when to be faithful and when to drop certain elements (I think mostly of the Tyrion/Jaime conversation where dropping Tysha really changes certain aspects of things), but that's me and my set of preferences. In a way, I'm kinda glad to have different examinations/explorations (book/TV/graphic novel) of the same core story.
posted by nubs at 11:54 AM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know, Bronn was on that boat with Jaime ALLLLLLLL the rest of the way back from Dorne. Is anyone else kind of pissed that we missed out on those conversations?

I want a whole episode where Bronn, Olenna, Tyrion, and Varys are trapped on a raft with nothing to do except talk shit
posted by clockzero at 11:59 AM on April 25, 2016 [20 favorites]


Gendry better be there to row.
posted by nubs at 12:00 PM on April 25, 2016 [10 favorites]


I want a whole episode where Bronn, Olenna, Tyrion, and Varys are trapped on a raft with nothing to do except talk shit

Bottle episode! Make this happen, people!
posted by Navelgazer at 12:15 PM on April 25, 2016 [10 favorites]


Gendry, where are you?
posted by Iteki at 12:28 PM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


I thought maybe he saw that the blood puddle was shaped like something ~*mysterious and/or magical*~ so I went to pause and look at it more closely but instead I accidentally changed the channel which made me so mad that i fell off the couch

Something mysterious and/or magical? Like a dragon maybe?
posted by bowmaniac at 12:29 PM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


a dragon? no, that is 100% ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by poffin boffin at 12:41 PM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


I kinda see it! Oh no wait it's a cowboy
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:47 PM on April 25, 2016 [8 favorites]


I don't think there was supposed to be a figure or form in the blood. That would be rather cheap story-telling, wouldn't it? This isn't the kind of world where magic/nature conspire with circumstance to produce signs or symbols.
posted by clockzero at 12:51 PM on April 25, 2016


Anyone have any ideas why they're being coy with Stannis' corpse? TV logic tends to be that you're only officially dead once you see the corpse.

They were also coy, I was going to say, about Brienne's swordstrike--we never saw the hit.

But then on preview I read this:
The most interesting thing about this episode was the added *squick* to the Stannis death stroke in the freakin' previouslies

I didn't see the previouslies. Did they in fact make it clearer that Brienne killed Stannis?
posted by torticat at 12:53 PM on April 25, 2016


I didn't see the previouslies. Did they in fact make it clearer that Brienne killed Stannis?

It seemed like the same scene. There may have been a bloody "squelk" sound of steel hitting flesh?
posted by codacorolla at 12:59 PM on April 25, 2016


I am actually shocked I am the first to mention this, but I'm pretty sure the reason the Sand Snakes had to actually kill Trystane instead of sideline him, along with the "no more weak men" line, is because they are actually bringing us Arianne Martell. At last.

If Arianne existed in the show universe, I think they'd at least have made some offhand reference to her by now. OTOH they seem to be making it up as they go along, so maybe they will. I like Arianne in the books, but considering how badly they've handled the Sand Snakes so far, I think I'd prefer it if they just leave her out.
posted by homunculus at 1:01 PM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


There may have been a bloody "squelk" sound of steel hitting flesh?

Well, and that could come from Ramsey's killing that soldier immediately after the cut.

I'm not at all persuaded that Stannis is dead. Not sure what he could have said to slow Brienne's roll there, but the fact is we didn't see him die.

They would have had to put word out that he HAD died, though, because Ramsey certainly believed it.
posted by torticat at 1:12 PM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


There was def a nice satisfying cachunk sound when Brienne swung her sword.

t was that Varys - Master of Whisperers, The Spider, who has shown himself to be quite capable of moving about in disguise and unknown, has to be told by Tyrion that they are safe because they are dressed up as humble merchants visiting Mereen.

I want to take it as Varys being unimpressed with Tyrion's amateur efforts.


I didn't even start to take that seriously. I thought it was a joke. They're probably the most recognizable people in town. A eunuch and a dwarf. Sure, change your clothes. Go ahead.
posted by bq at 1:16 PM on April 25, 2016 [12 favorites]


I guess maybe Stannis isn't dead, but his career pretty much is, so there wouldn't be any obvious reason for the character to remain alive. His arc is over.
posted by clockzero at 1:17 PM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


There may have been a bloody "squelk" sound of steel hitting flesh?

Is Don Martin doing their foley work now?
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:17 PM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]




Anyone have any ideas why they're being coy with Stannis' corpse?

The actor isn't on the show anymore?
posted by Jacqueline at 1:33 PM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I didn't see the previouslies. Did they in fact make it clearer that Brienne killed Stannis?

They made it as clear as they could without going back and CGIing his head rolling in the snow.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:36 PM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


The actor isn't on the show anymore?

That makes the stupid cutaway shot just one more terrible shooting decision from the show runners, then.
posted by codacorolla at 1:46 PM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


From homunculus' link:

The Sand Snakes, Oberyn Martell’s three bastard daughters, were obviously meant to launch off of that character’s breakout success and popularity. Unfortunately, the people behind Game of Thrones, David Benioff and Dan Weiss (D&D), apparently didn’t understands what it was about that character that made him popular. Instead of focusing on his intelligence, grief, and need for justice, they focused on…how sexy and violent he was. Then they threw in his long-term girlfriend Ellaria Sand, and made her more or less identical.

The line that clunked the worst for me this week I don't think has been mentioned, and it was Elliara reminding Doran that in addition to all the women, Oberyn also slept with men. Look everyone! We're so cool we had a bisexual man! Look at us, being all inclusive and shit! And it completely misses the point that Oberyn was compelling for a variety of reasons - that he was sharp and intelligent and could handle a face-off with Tywin Lannister, that he had a clear motivation for what he was doing, etc. On top of that, he happened to be bisexual. I think that speaks to something larger with the series as a whole - there is so much focus on the sex and the violence, it seems like sometimes they forget that there might be more than that that draws the viewers in and keeps them engaged.
posted by nubs at 1:48 PM on April 25, 2016 [18 favorites]


The line that clunked the worst for me this week I don't think has been mentioned, and it was Elliara reminding Doran that in addition to all the women, Oberyn also slept with men.

As much as I hate show-Dorne, that actually felt real for me. Like, Doran didn't think about the guys not because he was against it, but because that wasn't what he was jealous of.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:08 PM on April 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


The whole thing with Tyrion and Varys was dumb, but I really laughed when the lady thought Tyrion wanted to purchase and eat her baby. I thought that did a *way* better job of highlighting how deep they'd stepped in it than all the talk about the Sons of the Harpy and whatnot.
posted by mordax at 2:24 PM on April 25, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm surprised, the more I think about it, how pleased I am with the large scale changes the show seems to be making from the book.

Book Dorne is a fucking tangled nest of blankets, even the attempt to straighten it out induces sleep. Since it seems like they're cutting out the whole pretender plot from the books, then it seems to me that the likely function of Dorne is to start a war with the Lannisters that will kill Tommen. The book is going to do this through probably 50,000 words of intrigue n gobbledygook that culminates in the Martells joining with Aegon and marching on King's Landing, the show is going to cut the bullshit and just have what's her face and the Sand Snakes decide to do that on their own --- which they bloody well wanted to do in the first place. If that's the way it works out I'm totally fine with it.

And like everyone else with a shred of human decency, I was psyched to get to see Brianne actually find a Stark and save some people. If Brienne sticks with Sansa and helps her rally the North against the Boltons, I'd be fucking fine with that, too. It makes me wonder how they're going to work the Riverlands back into the plot at all, though, and it does seem to not only be a plot change but a huge emotional character arc change for Brienne --- her whole thing in the book is basically being forced into a position where two of her oaths conflict and she must choose between them. To have that happen here she's either have to betray Sansa or Sansa would have to send her off south to kill Jamie? Which the first would suck and I can't think of a good reason for the second.

Also, does the lever by which Dany moves the Dothraki seem obvious to anybody else? Her and drogo's child was prophesied by the khal crone crew to be The Stallion That Mounts The World. Well, the baby's dead. The dragon, however.... I mean, Dany's going to have to give 'em a bit of the old softshoe, and I assume there will be some burnination involved, but basically I expect her to come out of this leading an army of witches who have proclaimed her their messiah and who are in turn leading an army of all the Dothraki that ever were.
posted by Diablevert at 2:26 PM on April 25, 2016 [11 favorites]


As a comment on Reddit said:

In the show, Balon Greyjoy won the War of the Five Kings by doing absolutely nothing.
posted by Penks at 2:48 PM on April 25, 2016 [9 favorites]


Well, Euron is due to show up this season...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:50 PM on April 25, 2016


When I watched the scene, I was just deeply annoyed by the Melisande reveal. It seemed to me to be more of the show's sexism (coupled with ageism). But I'm moderately persuaded by the discussion in this thread that there was actually an important, relevant point to it with regard to either her relationship with R'hllor and/or what's she going to do (or has done) with Jon Snow. On the other hand, I will totally be unsurprised if next week we learn that the scene turned out to be exactly what I first thought it was.

The whole Tyrion/Varys scene was just terrible, IMO. Badly conceived and badly written. And they had a throwaway line about how the city was hunkering down, but that did little to restore my suspension of disbelief about how they apparently couldn't afford many extras.

I've come to just hate the whole Dorne plotline. More even than in the books. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are just cartoons, I'm not only uninterested, I'm irritated. I'd like to care about what is happening with Daenerys and the Dothraki, and the two idiots who are following her, but I don't. I simply don't care.

What worked for me was, of course, the Sansa/Brienne scene. And Davos at the Wall. But, overall, I'm either "meh" or actively disliking the episode.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:07 PM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


clockzero: I want a whole episode where Bronn, Olenna, Tyrion, and Varys are trapped on a raft with nothing to do except talk shit

I want Tyrion to sing River of Men, and Bronn to yell "row!"


codacorolla: There may have been a bloody "squelk" sound of steel hitting flesh?

prize bull octorok: Is Don Martin doing their foley work now?

Here's the script-writer's alphabetical guide to sounds.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:07 PM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


GRRM Motorcycle in Distance


Huh.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:15 PM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


lso, does the lever by which Dany moves the Dothraki seem obvious to anybody else? Her and drogo's child was prophesied by the khal crone crew to be The Stallion That Mounts The World. Well, the baby's dead. The dragon, however...

Oh, the dragon is going to be the lever. The dragons were the lever over what was left of Drogo's horde at the end of S1. But I think there's a few things that need to happen first - Dany is going to be threatened first, because that is what seemed to draw Drogon in S5, and his emergence over Vaes Dothrak is either going to get her the blessings of the khaleesi crone council or have them eaten. Plus, she's going to have to be able to demonstrate some level of control - to prove she is the Mother of Dragons, she has to be able to direct Drogon, not just unleash wanton destruction. That is what I think, anyways.

But overall, what they are doing with Dany is very much in keeping with the prophecies - she has to "go back to go forward"; she is back where a lot of things changed/started for her; her acceptance by the Dothraki, the declaration of the "Stallion that Mounts the World", where her brother died and she became the last Targaryen.
posted by nubs at 3:24 PM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.
She went south to Qarth, now east to Vaes Dothrak. She's gone 'backwards' by going back to the Dothraki on the plains, and it's pretty obvious she has to go to Asshai.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:29 PM on April 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


This isn't the kind of world where magic/nature conspire with circumstance to produce signs or symbols.

Isn't it exactly that kind of world, just subtly? Both Dany's birth and Jon's death (AND REBIRTH SHOW WE KNOW) have snow and salt and bleeding stars which are the symbols of Azor Ahai's rebirth. Sure you could say if the portents can point to multiple people then they aren't actually prophetic but, eh, vague blood patterns seem just in line with the other stuff. I don't think we are supposed to be reading much past "OH SHIT" into Davos' visage there, though.

she has to "go back to go forward"

The back has been happening for twenty years, I'm ready for some goshdarn forward.
posted by Justinian at 4:12 PM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]




Wired has death odds.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:48 PM on April 25, 2016


They've got a line on Hodor? Man, that's cold.

5:1? hmmmmmm. Do I think Bran is going to warg him in a fight again?
posted by nubs at 6:13 PM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chrys Watches Game of Thrones: Game of Thrones Season 6, Episode 1: Schrodinger’s Crone

Recap!
posted by homunculus at 6:19 PM on April 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


Isn't it exactly that kind of world, just subtly?

I guess it's never really been made clear what kind of world it actually is.
posted by clockzero at 6:39 PM on April 25, 2016


I guess it's never really been made clear what kind of world it actually is.

Still totally possible that this is all actually sci-fi and takes place on like a forsaken Earth colony planet in the year 45,000. (I've read some of GRRM's other stuff and it's exactly the sort of thing he'd do, he loves fantasy-that's-actually-sci-fi conceits)
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:50 PM on April 25, 2016 [9 favorites]


Massie Williams is now the coolest nerd on Earth.
posted by humanfont at 7:14 PM on April 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


Still totally possible that this is all actually sci-fi and takes place on like a forsaken Earth colony planet in the year 45,000. (I've read some of GRRM's other stuff and it's exactly the sort of thing he'd do, he loves fantasy-that's-actually-sci-fi conceits)

I'd take this, gladly, over what both show and book are currently trending towards.
posted by codacorolla at 7:55 PM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wired has death odds.

They have Cersei at 7:1. That's stupid and if someone offered me that I would sell all my possessions to raise cash to make that bet.

Hell, a lot of them are extremely dubious. Ramsay Bolton at 2:1? Come on, he is deader than a doorknob. But it's still not as ridiculous as 7:1 for Cersei. She ded.
posted by Justinian at 8:39 PM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


What if we do get an IceZombie!Jon but he's somehow more intelligent and less bloodthirsty than your typical ice zombie? That would throw things for a loop.

JON SNOW II: JON ICE, WITH A VENGEANCE
posted by BungaDunga at 9:25 PM on April 25, 2016


I think Cersei will be cursed with a long life full of grief and regrets
posted by Jacqueline at 9:37 PM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


Even odds says Jaime kills her by series end.
posted by Justinian at 9:55 PM on April 25, 2016 [9 favorites]


Right, it has to be her own overreach that leads to Tommen's death for maximum awfulness. Then she gets to stew.
posted by Rat Spatula at 9:56 PM on April 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


No. Tommen's not allowed to die. He's the only decent person in the entire thing now that Myrcella's dead.

Plus who would look after Ser Pounce?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:11 PM on April 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I guess maybe Stannis isn't dead, but his career pretty much is, so there wouldn't be any obvious reason for the character to remain alive.
+
There was def a nice satisfying cachunk sound
+
The actor isn't on the show anymore

All excellent arguments. I'm persuaded!
posted by torticat at 10:53 PM on April 25, 2016


Plus who would look after Ser Pounce?

When Qyburn was working on the FrankenMountain, Ser Pounce was there, observing from the shadows, waiting. When Qyburn was away, Ser Pounce took advantage of his resources to infect FrankenMountain with magically enhanced Toxoplasma gondii. Cersei and Qyburn think FrankenMountain obeys them, but it's really Ser Pounce who pulls the giant puppet's strings. He'll be fine.
posted by homunculus at 11:26 PM on April 25, 2016 [22 favorites]


Anyone have any ideas why they're being coy with Stannis' corpse? TV logic tends to be that you're only officially dead once you see the corpse.

I think you're officially dead when you're featured on Beautiful Death.
posted by homunculus at 12:55 AM on April 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Even odds says Jaime kills her by series end.

Oooh you're right. I forgot about the prophecy. Although did they include the part about the younger brother on the show?
posted by Jacqueline at 7:17 AM on April 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


No. Tommen's not allowed to die. He's the only decent person in the entire thing now that Myrcella's dead.

What about Pod? He's a good egg.
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 7:27 AM on April 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


The valonqar prophecy is a little bit ambigious to my eyes, actually:

Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

Most of the speculation on this focuses on who the younger queen is, but perhaps the important thing is that she will take everything Cersei holds dear - which seems to be her power, title, self-image, and children. Margaery is in the process of taking Tommen, in the sense of his loyalty and affection, along with the others.

Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

We all interpret this to mean her children will pre-decease her. But why? There is nothing Maggy the Frog actually says that clearly states that Cersei will outlive her children - just that they will have golden crowns (their hair) and golden shrouds. If Cersei's fate is to lose that which she holds most dear and we think of that in terms of her children, it can mean a lot of things - that they grow up, become more distant, no longer need or want her influence, or come under the influence of someone else. Cersei is left alone, mourning, and that is when the "little brother" comes along and kills her.

I mean, I like the idea that Cersei will see everything taken from her and her world destroyed, but prophecy and signs in ASOIAF seem a really slippery business and I'm never sure that the immediate interpretation is the correct one.
posted by nubs at 7:44 AM on April 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


The new Ask the Maester is out via The Ringer's newsletter. Here's a browser version.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:04 AM on April 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hello, book people! I have a question that only y'all can answer!

In the series, there several wonderful scenes between Arya and Tywin. 1. Do those scenes occur in the books? 2. Do those two characters meet at all?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:39 AM on April 26, 2016


1. No they don't happen, He's not at harrenhall (one of my reasons the show is so great)
2. I don't believe they ever meet
posted by French Fry at 9:44 AM on April 26, 2016


BB, no to both, although there's an extended bit with another character that inspired the show's version
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:46 AM on April 26, 2016


Then she gets to stew

I think you're thinking of the Freys.
posted by codacorolla at 9:48 AM on April 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Or Weasel.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:55 AM on April 26, 2016


The scenes with Arya and Tywin were one of the times where the show improved dramatically over the books, imo. I love those scenes.
posted by homunculus at 10:01 AM on April 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Arya/Tywin scenes are great, and I'm glad D&D saw the chemistry between Maisie and Charles and decided to run with it. Much better than the Roose/Arya interactions in Harrenhall.
posted by nubs at 10:09 AM on April 26, 2016


i want them to make a buddy cop movie together tbh
posted by poffin boffin at 10:23 AM on April 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


BTW 'The Brienne and Podrick Shooooow' must be sung to this tune.
posted by bq at 10:28 AM on April 26, 2016


I have many buddy cop pairings from this show:

-Arya/Hound (She's a homicidal pre-teen with a sword. He eats chicken. Together, they solve crime!)
-Brienne/Pod (She's a knight in a world where she doesn't fit. He's the loyal faithful squire with swordsmanship that wows the ladies. Together, they solve crime!)
-Tyrion/Varys (He's a drunken dwarf with a mind sharper than swords. The other person listens to little birds. Together they solve crime!)
-Jaime/Bronn (He's the noble who isn't handy anymore. He's a quick-witted sellsword who likes the ladies. Together, they have slapstick adventures!)
posted by nubs at 10:36 AM on April 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Two minor revisions to your excellent list:

-Arya/Hound (She's a homicidal pre-teen with a sword. He eats chicken and scowls, doling out wisdom to his young partner. Together, they solve crime!)
-Brienne/Pod (She's a knight in a world where she doesn't fit. He's the loyal faithful squire with swordsmanship that wows the ladies
and a head for facts and trivia. Together, they solve crime!)
posted by filthy light thief at 11:37 AM on April 26, 2016


breakin' the law thinks the show peaked around season 3 in this comment in the noob thread. I want to tell him that is unsurprising since the source material also peaked in season 3. But I cannot, because noobs.

I expect, as in the source material, there will be parts of the show that reaches the same highs as the early seasons but that it will continue to be interspersed with Dorne and Greyjoy nonsense just like the books. At least some of the nonsense will be excised from the show for budgetary and time reasons!

(Still love the show, still a great show, just bitter about the source material.)
posted by Justinian at 11:48 AM on April 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


The buddy cop pairing dialogues are some of the best parts of the show! More banter and interesting dialogue, fewer purely plot-driven antics in Dorne and so on please!
posted by Justinian at 11:49 AM on April 26, 2016


> the show has not only gone to the weeds on occasion but made some odd choices about when to be faithful and when to drop certain elements (I think mostly of the Tyrion/Jaime conversation where dropping Tysha really changes certain aspects of things)

Removing Tysha makes it completely unclear why Tyrion wants to destroy his family on the show. He hates Cersei, sure, but Tywin is dead, he didn't seem to have anything against Kevin, and he was fond of Myrcela. He had been fond of Tommen too, though that may have changed after the trial. And the last time he saw Jaime he was full of gratitude and affection. So why does Tyrion want to bring down House Lannister so badly when there's only one member of the family left whom he hates? That was a bizarre writing choice, imo.
posted by homunculus at 12:35 PM on April 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


The show didn't remove Tysha, Tyrion and Bronn talk about her in S1 or S2.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:40 PM on April 26, 2016


Removing Tysha makes it completely unclear why Tyrion wants to destroy his family on the show.

The show tried to turn Shae into Tysha. I don't think they executed well on that, but I don't think it was a bad idea in and of itself. Having the character who actually spends multiple season's worth of time on screen with him genuinely care for Tyrion and then betray him is probably better than having her be a conniving little gold digger while some great pure lost love we never see is the one he really cares about, when it comes to giving him a motive to kill her and his father once he's betrayed. Book first people get hung up on book Shae, and therefore all the show writers did to try and show genuine affection between show Shae and Tyrion is dismissed by them as a wrong-rung bell, some dull clamour that can be ignored. But I think the show went out of its way to play that up. That part wasn't even the part that went wrong; the turn they never managed was showing you why show Shae would believe Tyrion was dismissing her in favor of Sansa. They made some gestures toward it but I don't think they brought it off. I think that could have worked if they had done a little more with it --- Tyrion loves her but tries to push her away for her safety, Shae loves him but believes he has dropped her like a hot rock to get with Sansa, thus motivating her betrayal at the trial, it could have been done. As for needing Tysha for motive --- Cersei and Tywin tried to have him strung up for a murder that at least the latter knows he didn't do. The whole Shae/Tysha deal is gilding the lily, really, in terms of giving him a motive to kill Tywin and Cersei. And once he's gone down that path everybody else is collateral damage. He'd be the first to understand that.
posted by Diablevert at 1:00 PM on April 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


The show didn't remove Tysha, Tyrion and Bronn talk about her in S1 or S2.

Yep, but show Tyrion thinks that she was being paid to feign attraction to him. Whereas in the books she really did like/love him, and was gang-raped by Lannister soldiers at his father's orders, to prove a point. Which gives him the motive to hate and want to destroy his family.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:07 PM on April 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Also it turns out I have missed these threads immensely, so thank you all).

Coming late to this because timezone differences and having to wait for subtitles mean I don't get to watch it at the same time:

- Loved the scene with Sansa, Brienne etc. The oath-taking was such a great way to show her growing into a leadership role, but to demonstrate that she isn't there...yet. She knows what she needs to do, and knows some of the words, but (because war and Joffrey and everything interrupted her education) she doesn't know everything. But there's good old advisor Pod to fill her in, showing that she's already starting to put smart people around her, not just great warriors.

- the Conan Dothraki scene was a bit weird, funny, but doesn't really seem to fit the show as a whole.

- who burned the boats? Harpies? Is this just an excuse to have the Greyjoys show up, so that Dany has some ships to steal? Is she ever going to get to Westeros? Hurry up!
posted by Pink Frost at 1:12 PM on April 26, 2016


Pink Frost: who burned the boats? Harpies?

One of the dragons. They were tracking their movements to find Dany. I think they even said something along the lines of "do you know anything else that can melt ram horn?"
posted by bluecore at 1:18 PM on April 26, 2016


That was said by Jorah and whatshisname while tracking Daenerys, a long way away from the city. I don't think we know who burned the boats in Mereen's harbor.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:25 PM on April 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


who burned the boats? Harpies? Is this just an excuse to have the Greyjoys show up, so that Dany has some ships to steal? Is she ever going to get to Westeros? Hurry up!

The Harpies, or the freed slaves who now feel abandoned, etc. The point of the burning of the ships was to remove (again) Dany's ability to get her army where she wants it, and to illustrate that the city is tense and on edge, not to point to one specific group or another (I think, anyways). [Trouble, oh we got trouble, right here in Mereen City! With a capital T, that rhymes with D, and that stands for Dragon!]

As for how she will finally get to Westeros, I think the Sand Snakes demonstrated this week that there are methods of fairly fast transportation, if not teleportation, that are available that should work nicely for her Dothraki Horde & Unsullied invasion force.
posted by nubs at 2:20 PM on April 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


No. Tommen's not allowed to die. He's the only decent person in the entire thing now that Myrcella's dead.

Plus who would look after Ser Pounce?


"Rickon eats Tommen; Shaggydog eats Ser Pounce," has been my go-to answer for years whenever people ask me what I want out of the series.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:35 PM on April 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm excited to catch up with Bran. At least I think I am. That may start answering some of the more pressing and interesting unknowns from the books. I'm also hoping that we get a little taste of Doomed Valyria for the same reasons, although I'm not sure who would have a reason to poke their head in there.
posted by codacorolla at 3:03 PM on April 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yep, but show Tyrion thinks that she was being paid to feign attraction to him. Whereas in the books she really did like/love him, and was gang-raped by Lannister soldiers at his father's orders, to prove a point. Which gives him the motive to hate and want to destroy his family.

Right, that's what I meant. For Tyrion in the books, Jaime's revelation of the truth about Tysha and his role in the crime was a total betrayal of their relationship, and the final straw with his family. Tyrion would never forgive Jaime for that. But on the show none of that happened and Tyrion parted with good feelings about Jaime. Which again makes his intense desire to destroy the entire family odd, since he already killed Tywin and Cersei is the only one left he obviously hates.
posted by homunculus at 3:35 PM on April 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm excited to catch up with Bran. At least I think I am. That may start answering some of the more pressing and interesting unknowns from the books.

Me too. The Bran and Max von Rivers storyline is the one I'm looking forward to the most.
posted by homunculus at 3:39 PM on April 26, 2016


Ya the Branch (heee) story is going to tie up all kinds of things.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:41 PM on April 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


And what makes the whole thing with dropping Tysha so odd to me is that she came up i both S1 & S2, and then was mentioned again in S4 - like they were building to the revelation - only to drop it altogether. They've also apparently decided to keep a strong Jaime-Cersei relationship, which is an interesting choice and I'm not sure it serves Jaime's character development well.
posted by nubs at 3:41 PM on April 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ivan Fyodorovich: That was said by Jorah and whatshisname while tracking Daenerys, a long way away from the city. I don't think we know who burned the boats in Mereen's harbor.

Oops, I saw the question "who burned the boats" as "who burned the goats".
posted by bluecore at 4:10 PM on April 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


"who burned the goats"

Apparently it was the PATTERNISTS.
posted by homunculus at 5:25 PM on April 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


They've also apparently decided to keep a strong Jaime-Cersei relationship, which is an interesting choice and I'm not sure it serves Jaime's character development well.

Could be that Jaime's faking. He'd want to keep Cersei close whether he still loves her or not. And if it came to choosing between Cersei and Tyrion (in terms of his loyalty) I like to think he'd choose Tyrion.

But I don't know. He seemed pretty sincere in that conversation this episode, with the "FUCK prophecies!" and all that.

I can't remember how the show handled the part when Cersei was in prison and begged for Jaime to come. In the books he didn't respond. What happened with that last season?
posted by torticat at 5:53 PM on April 26, 2016


He hasn't gone to the Riverlands yet in the show.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on April 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't remember how the show handled the part when Cersei was in prison and begged for Jaime to come. In the books he didn't respond. What happened with that last season?

Jaime was in Dorne while Cersei was in prison. As I recall, she asked for Kevin and Tommen to visit her, but Kevin refused and Tommen was sulking in his room and wouldn't talk to anyone (except maybe Ser Pounce.)
posted by homunculus at 6:26 PM on April 26, 2016


I'm also hoping that we get a little taste of Doomed Valyria for the same reasons, although I'm not sure who would have a reason to poke their head in there.

Jorah and Tyrion were there last year - Valyria subbed in for whatever ruined city he goes through on the boat with Connington and Griff in the books.
posted by LionIndex at 8:42 PM on April 26, 2016


whatever ruined city he goes through on the boat with Connington and Griff in the books.

Chroyane.

I actually enjoyed the river trip in the book. It wasn't until Tyrion and Jorah were captured by the slavers that it became a dreary chore to read. Maybe I'm just a sucker for big turtles.
posted by homunculus at 9:02 PM on April 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Jaime was in Dorne while Cersei was in prison.

Yeah... but so did she not send a message to Jaime at all? If D&D left out that whole part, then it would appear that they are indeed maintaining a strong relationship between J&C. For now, at least.

Which does seem off for his character arc, but then his raping Cersei was the same kind of thing (but worse). I expect he'll come around. Three steps forward, two steps back.

[not to characterize a rape as "two steps back"; I'm kinda splitting the difference here as the showrunners said it wasn't meant to be that even though as depicted it clearly was.]
posted by torticat at 11:13 PM on April 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah... but so did she not send a message to Jaime at all?

No. He was there covertly, so there was no way to try to contact him.
posted by homunculus at 12:00 AM on April 27, 2016


Okay, how about this - Tommen and Cersei argue (probably because he's working hard to get Margaery out of jail), Cersei slaps him, the Kingsguard restrains her, Frankenmountain (finally!) starts swinging, and Tommen is killed in the brawl. Maybe substitute (or add) some Sparrow fanatics in that mix.

So then why does Jaime kill Cersei? (Valonqar = Jaime because Tyrion = Secret Targaryen). It can't be a grief-induced suicide pact (unless they totally dismantle and reassemble Jaime's character).

It also seems out of character for him to kill her out of rage (at her stupidity for getting Tommen killed).

So, self-defense? Or something dopey, like they argue, and she slaps him, and he shoves her, and she trips backward and falls out a window?

Or once Tommen dies, Cersei becomes regent monarch, goes Full Nutbar, and Jaime has to (once more) put down the rabid dog sitting on the throne?

Or something weird about Qyburn's aevyl maejicke, whereby the Frankenmountain is mystically bound to Cersei such that she must be killed to shut him down?
posted by Rat Spatula at 9:23 AM on April 27, 2016


Tyrion = Secret Targaryen

No. This is one of the bits of tinfoil that drives me batty. Everyone hangs this theory on Tywin's "I cannot prove you're not mine."

That's not an indication that Mama Lannister was cheating, it's a sop to Tywin's unshakeable belief that he is perfect, a paragon among men, and therefore how could he have possibly sired Tyrion?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:46 AM on April 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm hanging it on the fact that Mr. I'm Overturning All The Fantasy Tropes has set up a yin-yang long-lost sibling situation with Jon Snow and Dany that is straight out of everything ever written by anybody ever. All dwarves may be "bastards in their father's eyes," but Tyrion would be Level 11 Nonplussed to discover he really was a bastard. He'd even have to forgive his dad a little.

Also, getting dragonscale makes you immune to dragonfire, right?
posted by Rat Spatula at 10:01 AM on April 27, 2016


Ok but there's literally zero textual support for the Tyrion Targaryen theory. Plus Tywin repeatedly refers to him as his son, and had he had actual doubts at birth could easily have killed him.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:05 AM on April 27, 2016


I saw the question "who burned the boats" as "who burned the goats".

Shagga son of Dolf would be upset about the goats.

So then why does Jaime kill Cersei? (Valonqar = Jaime because Tyrion = Secret Targaryen)

Valonqar = little brother. Jaime and Tyrion are both Cersei's younger brothers (I'm not at all a fan of the Secret Targ theory). But again, Maggy's prophecy doesn't say that it is Cersei's valonqar - just "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." Martin likes to fuck around with prophecy and signs in the series (I mean, there are signs regarding the PWP around Jon, Dany, and Stannis and likely others), which is part of deconstructing the tropes, so I don't take any prophecy with the face value it gets presented with - and the signs of it will likely be dropped into the text in places we may not be looking for them (at Jon's stabbing in ADwD, we have a bleeding star in the sky, smoke, and salt, but are most readers paying attention at that point?)

Little brother could mean a lot of different people. Tommen is Joffrey's little brother. Rickon is Bran's little brother. Stannis (who still lives in the books, though I suspect not for long) is Robert's little brother. Loras is Margaery's younger brother.

Now books and the show are going to be very different, and it could be that the show is keeping Jaime close to Cersei to set up the moment of betrayal that leads Jaime to kill her. But I really expect things are going to go very different then the accepted reading.
posted by nubs at 10:13 AM on April 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh snap Tommen kills her. Even more perfecter.
posted by Rat Spatula at 10:32 AM on April 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Jaime killing her would be poetry. For one reason or another she gets marked for execution (in my headcanon it's Sansa ordering Cersei's death at the head of an army which has just rampaged from the North because Sansa needs to Win This Thing or I will be Upset), and some combination of external maneuvering and his own "nobody kills my sister but me" leads to Jaime having to do the deed. Perhaps publicly, perhaps he does it right before the actual execution--shades of Jon Snow killing !Mance.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:41 AM on April 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think Jaime killing her has a tremendous poetic weight, yeah (but don't forget that Rickon is also Sansa's little brother, in your Sansa rampage). But given Cersei's general short-sightedness in a lot of areas, I also think it coming from one of her blindsides would be great (not that Jaime wouldn't be a blindside itself).

Even better would be if Jaime kills Cersei to protect someone or something else - a child perhaps - in a neat reversal of the moment he threw Bran from the tower to protect the twincest secret.
posted by nubs at 10:48 AM on April 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


"the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

This could even refer to something like Jon Snow (or someone else!) holding The Neck (which is likely to be pale and white from snow soon if it isn't already) against a Lannister force. Though literal throttling is strongly suggested, of course.
posted by clockzero at 10:52 AM on April 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Even better would be if Jaime kills Cersei to protect someone or something else - a child perhaps - in a neat reversal of the moment he threw Bran from the tower to protect the twincest secret.

Perhaps he is protecting King Bran...
posted by Rock Steady at 11:11 AM on April 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Bran is never going south of the wall again.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:38 AM on April 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah like, there's a reason I'm calling him Branch now.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:39 AM on April 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, that's probably true.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:27 PM on April 27, 2016


Please never mention Connington and Griff again. That's one of the plot threads I have excised from my memory. Martin, you need to be consolidating threads at this point not creating even more. Hell, you needed to be consolidating plot threads two books and ten years ago.
posted by Justinian at 12:28 PM on April 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


No that is needed! It's the only thing that makes Varys's actions plausible .
posted by corb at 1:40 PM on April 27, 2016


Yeah like, there's a reason I'm calling him Branch now.

Branch the Broken Stark, starting a cadet branch of the Starks up beyond the wall.
posted by nubs at 2:24 PM on April 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


No that is needed! It's the only thing that makes Varys's actions plausible .

But it can happen offpage! At its core the problem Martin has run into is that he is not willing to let enough stuff happen in the background. He has to show every single event on the page.
posted by Justinian at 3:10 PM on April 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I had to ctrl-F through this thread to make sure it hasn't already been said.

Don't you think Jon warged to Ghost before dying? I don't know the implications of warging elsewhere while the physical body bleeds out, but it feels like the "plausible" loophole to allow reviving a days-old corpse.

C'mon Melisandra! Stop your moping and get that necklace back on! Time to hitch your wagon to the new Lord of Light!
posted by mcstayinskool at 3:15 PM on April 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Nah. It's possible that Jon is dead dead, not just mostly dead. It would be in keeping with Gurm's style to be like "Yo, this is what you get when stupid dumbfucks commit stupid dumbfuckery, hope you like your blueeyed boy mr death."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:18 PM on April 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Don't you think Jon warged to Ghost before dying? I don't know the implications of warging elsewhere while the physical body bleeds out, but it feels like the "plausible" loophole to allow reviving a days-old corpse.

That is certainly my suspicion of what will happen in the books; the whole prologue of ADwD is basically setting up the idea of a skinchanger warging into an animal (or someone else) before dying. I wondered about it briefly during this ep, but never saw anything that gave me any indication that was what had happened.

The whole Shae/Tysha deal is gilding the lily, really, in terms of giving him a motive to kill Tywin and Cersei

I've been mulling this over a fair bit in the past day or so (yeah, I'm a freak, and I know it), and I really think there is a lot of importance to Tysha - she is one of those characters who we never meet, but who casts a large shadow on the series (see also: Rhaegar), and not just for Tyrion, but also for Jaime. The lie that is Tysha is the lie that destroys House Lannister. I might go revive my blog to go on about that.
posted by nubs at 3:42 PM on April 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I saw a video yesterday of Gwendolyn Christie doing an interpretive dance to the GoT theme song.

And Maisie Williams singing the lyrics. (Which, btw, are: "Boobies, death and boobies, death and boobies")
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:15 PM on April 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


WotW has a Recap Roundup (Sullied refers to book informed recaps.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:40 PM on April 27, 2016


saw a video yesterday of Gwendolyn Christie doing an interpretive dance to the GoT theme song.

And Maisie Williams singing the lyrics. (Which, btw, are: "Boobies, death and boobies, death and boobies")


Ser, I believe failing to provide a link - or finding a way to upload said video if it isn't already - may constitute a violation of your oath as a member of Metafilter.
posted by nubs at 5:48 PM on April 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I never thought I would google "Maisie Williams Death and Boobies", but lo.
posted by nubs at 5:58 PM on April 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


Okay, I've held off enough, but I can't sit on the sidelines for a good book/show difference argument, especially when it is centered on Tysha. It was the show's BEST CHANGE EVAR.

Sure, GRRM hung a lot of Tyrion's motivation on Tysha. She is the lie that brings down house Lannister, as you say, nubs. But as show-Shae so deftly pointed out to us, the idea that this near-rape victim would fall in love with her rescuer was completely implausible (especially when that rescuer is the notorious and feared Imp). It's fairy-tale stuff that, and Tyrion's post revelation reaction just made it worse. WTF does it even mean to search for someone he hasn't heard from in ten years in a Westeros world? It makes him sound like freaking OJ Simpson looking for the real killers. Nothing good can come of this plotline (okay one thing maybe: at some point Tyrion could realize that there is no fucking reason to believe that Tysha would even want to be found by Tyrion, and that although she is most probably dead, if not, it would be best to do her the favor of leaving her alone).

As for Tyrion's motivation in the show, I really don't see how it's lacking. The whole of Westeros, headed by his sister and father, tried to execute him because he was a convenient scapegoat and since they had already despised him for being different to begin with. Sounds good enough to defect to the Targaryans to me.

But I haven't seen anyone point out how this change takes away from Jaime's story, nubs, and there I think you have a good point.
posted by skewed at 7:06 PM on April 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I pledge my life

Not his "afterlife" or his "undeath." So Jon's free from the Pledge too, if he comes back.


Here's a question: How long does it take to sail from Dorne to King's Landing? Because at the end of last season, we saw Jon Snow get killed, and Myrcella die from Ellaria's poison just as she and Jaime are sailing out of Dorne. This episode, we see Davos find Jon's body the next morning (?), and Jaime arrives back in King's Landing with Myrcella's corpse. That seems... compressed. It should take more than a few hours to sail from Dorne to King's Landing, right? Oh well, Hollywood story magic, I guess.

But it does remind me of something that I thought at the end of last season: I was really annoyed that, when Myrcella died, Jaime didn't just, you know, TURN THE SHIP AROUND AND SAIL RIGHT BACK AND BE LIKE WHAT THE FUCK DUDE? Seriously, they could see the Sand Snakes waving to them from the docks still. Did he really need to wait until they'd sailed all the way back to King's Landing to then send a letter (which apparently arrived instantaneously?) to Dorne notifying of them of her death? Why wouldn't he have gone back immediately and demanded justice for his obviously poisoned daughter niece?
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:43 PM on April 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Instant letter = ravens
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:52 PM on April 27, 2016


It was the show's BEST CHANGE EVAR

Tysha is problematic, yes. It is implausible that she would fall in love with Tyrion (although at the point they meet, he is not really notorious I don't think); I also don't like the fact that her story is essentially a fridging story to provide motivation for Tyrion (and frankly, the fact that Tyrion takes part in the gangrape is one of the few qualities about him that is unflattering and disturbing and usually glossed over in discussion of his character). I don't think she ever will appear in the story again; Tyrion's "where do whores go" is not a quest in terms of finding her (I think at some level Tyrion knows she would never accept him again), but about Tyrion grappling with some truths about himself. About dealing with the fact that the only person in his life who may have truly loved him was then horribly abused (including his participation) and then cut loose; that he betrayed her with his response at the end of the rape; and that Jaime - who he thought was the only member of his family who loved him - was also a participant in that lie.

Before that moment of the lie being revealed, Tyrion is relieved, he is grateful, he is laughing and embracing Jaime. He is not a man bent on revenge or filled with enough anger to fuel his climb to the confrontation. I struggle with why Tyrion would move to confront his father without that knowledge; I think he would just leave KL. But once he climbs to his father's bedchamber - and he is only able to get there because of knowledge he gained from Shae - he learns where whores go. His father's bedchamber, apparently.

In terms of Jaime, it has only been in the last few days that I've started to think about the story from his side (and again, disturbing to me that the gangrape of a female character is now something that I see as being an important event for two male characters), but it is an important moment for the Kingslayer, and the end result is to drive wedges between all three Lannister children. Anyways, I want to dig into the books a bit again and think about Jaime on this some more and then likely make an even more longwinded post on my blog, because thinking this way is making me reflect on some of the events of AFFC and ADwD a little differently and I think there might be some things to unpack.
posted by nubs at 8:59 PM on April 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Tysha being removed from the story and all the female characters being 20% smarter and 50% more well rounded are my favorite things about the show over the books.

(also fuck griff/young griff)
posted by French Fry at 6:52 AM on April 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


skewed: the idea that this near-rape victim would fall in love with her rescuer was completely implausible

Except that is happened with Gilly and Samwell, though there was some budding relationship before that point versus being a damsel in distress who was so taken by the little man who saved her from rape.

Still, this goes against that wonderfully clarifying quote from Shae: A girl who is almost raped doesn't invite another man into her bed two hours later. Except it wasn't even two hours later - it was maybe 2 minutes?

What I'm trying to say is that I think the writers have this quote from Audrey Hepburn on their wall: Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!
posted by filthy light thief at 8:06 AM on April 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Missed the show while it was away, but I also missed these threads.
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 10:43 AM on April 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


the idea that this near-rape victim would fall in love with her rescuer was completely implausible

Except that is happened with Gilly and Samwell


Yeah, that was ridiculous. Scenes like that give me the feeling that the showrunners must be really burnt out: it often feels like they're making it up as they go along and just not trying very hard anymore.
posted by homunculus at 11:02 AM on April 28, 2016


I remember my wife and I gave each other "what the hell" looks after that scene with Gilly. I mean, I get that they needed to compress the Sam / Gilly narrative to fit into the show, but that really wasn't the way to go.
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 11:05 AM on April 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sailing back towards the Sand Snakes who are clearly out for blood seems like a bad idea. I see why you'd do it in GRRM's Murderverse, but it's not a good idea- maybe there are people waiting to crossbow them to death? And then they're both dead and their bodies maybe don't even return to King's Landing.

It's possible the timeline in the North will skip ahead in later episodes, so there are actually a few weeks for Jaime's trip to happen. They're so far apart physically that there's no way to know if they're actually meant to be synchronized right now.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:19 PM on April 28, 2016


Days/weeks have elapsed in the Dorne story, while minutes/hours have elapsed in the North. They're not in sync.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:25 PM on April 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Still, this goes against that wonderfully clarifying quote from Shae: A girl who is almost raped doesn't invite another man into her bed two hours later.

There's a real disconnect there. I find it troubling too. I wonder though if the writers were aiming for something like, Gilly is traumatized, and she's attempting to take power back. She does take all the initiative in the encounter with Sam.

I don't know if that's a realistic scenario or not (I suppose it could be for some women, I just don't know). I don't give D&D the benefit of the doubt in any case, as they'd been horribly ham-handed with this kind of material before.
posted by torticat at 6:44 PM on April 28, 2016


and frankly, the fact that Tyrion takes part in the gangrape is one of the few qualities about him that is unflattering and disturbing and usually glossed over in discussion of his character

I always read that as him being more or less forced to do so by his father. Which, given the fact that he was 13 at the time, makes him a victim as well.
posted by lunasol at 6:56 PM on April 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Days/weeks have elapsed in the Dorne story, while minutes/hours have elapsed in the North. They're not in sync.

And if anything this gets us sort of back in Sync with the end of last season, when hours were passing in Dorne while Jon and Edd were sailing to Hardhome and back, if I remember.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:31 AM on April 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


WotW video recap roundup
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:59 PM on April 29, 2016


Beautiful Death: Weak Men Will Never Rule Dorne Again
posted by homunculus at 8:38 PM on April 29, 2016


Two thoughts.

Tyriyon is a secret Targ and there was something held over Dad and Mom to keep that secret forever. Part of his hate for his 'son' is that he promised to raise him as his son and he's a dwarf and he killed mom.

The other is:

Jamie and Cersie aren't his, all babies he and mom tried to have died (ala Henry VIII) but Tyrion finally was his.
posted by tilde at 6:30 AM on April 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Days/weeks have elapsed in the Dorne story, while minutes/hours have elapsed in the North. They're not in sync.

Yet they are being presented as in sync, which is pretty wonky.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:32 AM on May 1, 2016


Is it possible that one of the Sand Snakes fulfills Maggie's prophecy of one younger and more beautiful who will cast Cersei down and take all that she holds dear.
posted by humanfont at 12:05 PM on May 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Days/weeks have elapsed in the Dorne story, while minutes/hours have elapsed in the North. They're not in sync.

Yet they are being presented as in sync, which is pretty wonky.


Dude. GRRM is to Magellen as JK Rowling is to The Marquis of Queensbury. I think the show has been more egregious than the book in terms of trimming travel times to whatever suits their need to have two characters in the same room together. But it's not like the book's sense of distance and travel time and whatnot is this fine-grained clockwork machine that allows you to plot out exactly where character X is when this is happening to character Y.

Given that the level of tech in the show pretty much ensures not only that it takes weeks for people to travel from place to place, it also takes an indeterminate number of weeks for information to travel from place to place, I am totally peachy keen with them shoving the plot along in each storyline as best they can without becoming bogged down in timing issues.
posted by Diablevert at 1:23 PM on May 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Re timelines: there's an incredibly detailed spreadsheet that shows timings for the books. They're not in sync: for example, the epilogue of ADWD is about 6 weeks before the final chapter, and there are chapters from TWOW that take place even earlier than that.
posted by Pink Frost at 3:21 PM on May 1, 2016 [1 favorite]




My expectations for this season are super low. I can watch the show somehow. Most of the dialogue is really bad, but it stands out most with Tyrion and Varys. They are not smart, capable, or knowledgable anymore. Tyrion doesn't need to say 'cock' in every scene.

Blind Arya almost started to learn or do something, but nope: stupid stick fighting. I'd hoped she'd at least get a hit in with kitty-warging, but nope. My big dream is that she will at least some day see through the eyes of Nymeria..

I totally cried when Brienne swore fealty. I wish they didn't make it so Sansa forgot the oath, though. If anyone in Westeros is able to compartmentalize and do some flawless Princessing by this point, it's Sansa fucking Stark.

In the big fight, I was expecting Theon to get very wild and freaked out. Impulse-shoving of Ramsey's evil squeeze aside, it was a big deal that he was going to raise a weapon and fight. And they could have solved the disappearing dog problem by having Theon scare them off. Plus he's slept in the kennels a lot so they might be like oh shit.
posted by nom de poop at 5:23 PM on May 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Melisandre is not just a red priestess. She's also the hottest new jewelry designer in Westeros.

Tell me there's an etsy.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:31 PM on May 3, 2016


I wish they didn't make it so Sansa forgot the oath, though. If anyone in Westeros is able to compartmentalize and do some flawless Princessing by this point, it's Sansa fucking Stark.

Yeah, I love that Sansa and Brienne are finally a team, but I was really annoyed that they had Sansa fumble over her words during the oath. Sure, it's understandable that she was exhausted and freezing, but Theon had been through the same ordeal and didn't seem to have any problems in that regard. In the books, courtesy is Sansa's special strength, her "lady's armor" which never buckles. The showrunners could just as easily have had her collect herself and deliver the lines through chattering teeth on her own to show that she's come through her ordeal and is ready to lead. Instead they rendered her incapable of getting through it without someone to help her. It's season 6 and the showrunners are still treating her as a helpless damsel. And while I adore Pod, he's also a tender person who is very new to fighting, so having him so poised after battling Ramsey's 'best men' didn't sit right either.
posted by homunculus at 11:53 PM on May 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Good arguments there homunculus. Upthread I'd said I liked that scene, that it made sense that maybe Sansa wouldn't know the vows word for word. And I can still sorta see an argument that she wouldn't be expected to know a knight's vows to his (sic) Lord, given that with three brothers there was no likelihood of her ever inheriting Winterfell. But that link makes a good argument why Pod wouldn't know the vows either. And Sansa seems to know every other kind of courtesy and correct form, so why not this one?

The river crossing annoyed me a bit too - Sansa comes from the north, if anyone wasn't going to be bothered by cold, it would surely be her. I prefer the alternative presentation of the scene in that link.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:11 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Sansa fumbling the oath grated me. She should have had it perfectly. It would have made her seem so much more powerful in the moment.

I saw her reluctance at crossing the river as completely rational: being cold kills, but being wet and cold will kill you much faster. Being hunted down by dogs will kill you even faster, but still. First rule of being outside in the cold is not to get wet.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:55 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sansa fumbling the oath grated me. She should have had it perfectly.

Sansa never expected to make such an oath. She expected to be married to someone who did.(1) Pod has spent most of his life in a profession that revolved around that oath. It made sense to me.

(1) Cat probably didn't either, but as an adult was witness to many such instances.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:58 PM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


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