Twin Peaks: The Return, Part 10 First Watch
July 16, 2017 7:02 PM - Season 3, Episode 10 - Subscribe
Laura is the one. (description from Showtime)
oh albert. oh coroner. oh gordon.
and tammy, so fuckin tone-deaf I have to like her. gordon is not laughing AT them, you monster, he is laughing in happiness FOR them. you think you are joining in, but you are taking yourself so far, so far away.
kyle maclachlan has aged almost exclusively above the neck for the last twenty-five years. he is an inspiration.
RUN SILENT, RUN DRAPES
NO STARS
NO STARS
NO STARS
my heart.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:05 PM on July 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
and tammy, so fuckin tone-deaf I have to like her. gordon is not laughing AT them, you monster, he is laughing in happiness FOR them. you think you are joining in, but you are taking yourself so far, so far away.
kyle maclachlan has aged almost exclusively above the neck for the last twenty-five years. he is an inspiration.
RUN SILENT, RUN DRAPES
NO STARS
NO STARS
NO STARS
my heart.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:05 PM on July 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
harry dean stanton makes me cry for the world, for myself, for every old man, for time, for space, and for love. those monumental bags under his eyes are full of secrets.
the mere memory of him singing in Paris, Texas will kill me if I let it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:07 PM on July 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
the mere memory of him singing in Paris, Texas will kill me if I let it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:07 PM on July 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
This was a particularly violent episode. Murder and domestic violence was bad, but Candie ugly-crying and dissociating was kinda the worst.
Holy shit, tho, Kyle MacLachlan's torso. And his blood pressure. Inspiring.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:12 PM on July 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Holy shit, tho, Kyle MacLachlan's torso. And his blood pressure. Inspiring.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:12 PM on July 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Candie ugly-crying and dissociating was kinda the worst.
I am completely up in the air about how I feel about it, but Lynch is so faithful to this thing he did way back in the old Twin Peaks where male-on-female violence is played for brutality beyond imagination, and female-on-male violence is played as a joke, though sometimes a terrible, terrible joke. whatever else it is, it's not an unthinking depiction or a coincidence.
but Candie accidentally whacking the one Mitchum in the face and completely falling apart over it even though she didn't mean to do it and he wasn't mad, set against Richard so-casually and very deliberately breaking and entering and bludgeoning Miriam (?) to a terrible death and only being a little upset that he hurt his hand doing it, and then going off to brutalize his grandmother and call her a cunt, and not being sorry about that either.
they're played against each other in super high contrast. and it means more, now that the Mitchum face accident is real(istic)(ish) violence, instead of whatever the Nadine superstrength attacks of yesteryear were. I have enough reservations about it that I'm not super satisfied I know what it means. but sometimes when David Lynch is too direct about something it has the same effect as when he is too obscure.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:20 PM on July 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
I am completely up in the air about how I feel about it, but Lynch is so faithful to this thing he did way back in the old Twin Peaks where male-on-female violence is played for brutality beyond imagination, and female-on-male violence is played as a joke, though sometimes a terrible, terrible joke. whatever else it is, it's not an unthinking depiction or a coincidence.
but Candie accidentally whacking the one Mitchum in the face and completely falling apart over it even though she didn't mean to do it and he wasn't mad, set against Richard so-casually and very deliberately breaking and entering and bludgeoning Miriam (?) to a terrible death and only being a little upset that he hurt his hand doing it, and then going off to brutalize his grandmother and call her a cunt, and not being sorry about that either.
they're played against each other in super high contrast. and it means more, now that the Mitchum face accident is real(istic)(ish) violence, instead of whatever the Nadine superstrength attacks of yesteryear were. I have enough reservations about it that I'm not super satisfied I know what it means. but sometimes when David Lynch is too direct about something it has the same effect as when he is too obscure.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:20 PM on July 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
This wasn't like Nadine or Nancy Reilly (remember her? Blackie's sister? Me neither). Candie was beating herself up over accidentally hitting a mobster. She has totally internalized the institutional misogynistic violence of American society—the Mitchums don't have to lift a finger, because she hurts herself.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:26 PM on July 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 7:26 PM on July 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'm on my phone so I'll post more later, but I just want to give a shout out to Rebekah del Rio's dress. Against the red curtain, that was such a gorgeous visual. And I can't wait to see how "no stars" plays into the end game.
posted by Ruki at 7:29 PM on July 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 7:29 PM on July 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Tammy laughs in that scene like somebody who's never laughed or seen someone laugh but who just read the Wikipedia article about laughing.
posted by escabeche at 8:02 PM on July 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 8:02 PM on July 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
I have enough reservations about it that I'm not super satisfied I know what it means. but sometimes when David Lynch is too direct about something it has the same effect as when he is too obscure.
I had a similarly ambiguous feeling about the DougieCoop and Janey-E sex scene - like, he's not in any kind of state to consent. Is Lynch trying to make a point there about the lens of masculinity erasing the rape of a man in the viewers' eyes by distorting it into a sexual fantasy, though, or is he oblivious to it? It's really hard to tell where Lynch is coming from when he touches on sex, sometimes it seems that he doesn't really get how problematic he comes across, like when he hypersexualizes young women and it's like, ok yes that's Audrey's character (for instance) but you reeeaaally seem to be leaning into it a bit too far, David. Or does he get how it comes across, and he's intentionally using the effect to say something? I give him the benefit of the doubt on stuff like that in other areas, but I just can't fully trust a guy who has even the appearance of misogynistic tendencies because it's almost always the case that it goes deeper than just the appearance. Especially from a guy with a position of power in the film industry who does the whole skeezy "muse" thing. But then I come back again to wondering if he knows what it looks like and is it an intentional statement, because again, he does that in other areas. I've never really been able to land on firm ground there, though I suspect I will always lean towards thinking of him as super problematic in that area. I mean, the muse thing... that's a tough one to get past.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:50 PM on July 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
I had a similarly ambiguous feeling about the DougieCoop and Janey-E sex scene - like, he's not in any kind of state to consent. Is Lynch trying to make a point there about the lens of masculinity erasing the rape of a man in the viewers' eyes by distorting it into a sexual fantasy, though, or is he oblivious to it? It's really hard to tell where Lynch is coming from when he touches on sex, sometimes it seems that he doesn't really get how problematic he comes across, like when he hypersexualizes young women and it's like, ok yes that's Audrey's character (for instance) but you reeeaaally seem to be leaning into it a bit too far, David. Or does he get how it comes across, and he's intentionally using the effect to say something? I give him the benefit of the doubt on stuff like that in other areas, but I just can't fully trust a guy who has even the appearance of misogynistic tendencies because it's almost always the case that it goes deeper than just the appearance. Especially from a guy with a position of power in the film industry who does the whole skeezy "muse" thing. But then I come back again to wondering if he knows what it looks like and is it an intentional statement, because again, he does that in other areas. I've never really been able to land on firm ground there, though I suspect I will always lean towards thinking of him as super problematic in that area. I mean, the muse thing... that's a tough one to get past.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:50 PM on July 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
Can you imagine if Shelly knew what was happening with her daughter?
posted by elsietheeel at 8:55 PM on July 16, 2017
posted by elsietheeel at 8:55 PM on July 16, 2017
Ok, so it's been established that Richard is a grandchild to Ben and Sylvia. There are two and a half possibilities there: Audrey, Johnny, and Donna (the half). I'm my mother's only child, but she still calls my (half)sister's kids her grandkids. But it was left ambiguous who his Horne parent is. I had assumed Audrey, but suddenly bringing Johnny in right before Johnny's family ties are established... well, I don't think the idea of Johnny as father is that ridiculous anymore. Aside from the fact that Richard is evil AF, I can definitely picture the Hornes wanting to erase the presence of their disabled son's illicit offspring.
I've lost track of how many different people want to kill Dougie Jones.
Diane! So she really isn't on the up and up. As was pointed out in last week's thread and my group chat, Boop sent the text in all caps, which is not how Diane received it. Tonight explained that it was sent through an intermediary in Mexico, who Diane replied to, since the original Boop phone was destroyed.
There were a series of clips released on Showtime prior to the first episode. I immediately found Chrysta Bell pretentious and unlikable from her brief appearance as herself. And I don't know if Chrysta Bell is a bad actor or an amazing one, but Agent Preston has seriously grown on me because of her intense awkwardness. She performs beauty (the exaggerated hip wiggle) but she's... She's the anti-Laura Palmer, who knew who to perform beauty and fake it. Agent Preston can't fake social norms.
I thought Becky was going to be the new Laura. It broke my heart to see that she was the new Shelley.
Also heartbreaking was seeing the Log Lady again. I almost cried. The Truman/True Men thing could have been hokey if the character development had been different.
On preview: Sherilyn Fenn hated being typecast as a sex kitten after Twin Peaks, but always always always defended Audrey and David Lynch. She had a less than ideal childhood, to put it mildly, and is VERY outspoken about her personal truths, so I trust her judgement on this. And I'm on the fence about the sex scene, because no, he can't consent because he doesn't know what consent is, but for a person that needs to be helped urinate, he seemed to find the same satisfaction in sex as he did a good piss. And this brings me back to the thought of Johnny as Richard Horne's father, because Johnny would be in that same non-consensual place.
posted by Ruki at 9:11 PM on July 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've lost track of how many different people want to kill Dougie Jones.
Diane! So she really isn't on the up and up. As was pointed out in last week's thread and my group chat, Boop sent the text in all caps, which is not how Diane received it. Tonight explained that it was sent through an intermediary in Mexico, who Diane replied to, since the original Boop phone was destroyed.
There were a series of clips released on Showtime prior to the first episode. I immediately found Chrysta Bell pretentious and unlikable from her brief appearance as herself. And I don't know if Chrysta Bell is a bad actor or an amazing one, but Agent Preston has seriously grown on me because of her intense awkwardness. She performs beauty (the exaggerated hip wiggle) but she's... She's the anti-Laura Palmer, who knew who to perform beauty and fake it. Agent Preston can't fake social norms.
I thought Becky was going to be the new Laura. It broke my heart to see that she was the new Shelley.
Also heartbreaking was seeing the Log Lady again. I almost cried. The Truman/True Men thing could have been hokey if the character development had been different.
On preview: Sherilyn Fenn hated being typecast as a sex kitten after Twin Peaks, but always always always defended Audrey and David Lynch. She had a less than ideal childhood, to put it mildly, and is VERY outspoken about her personal truths, so I trust her judgement on this. And I'm on the fence about the sex scene, because no, he can't consent because he doesn't know what consent is, but for a person that needs to be helped urinate, he seemed to find the same satisfaction in sex as he did a good piss. And this brings me back to the thought of Johnny as Richard Horne's father, because Johnny would be in that same non-consensual place.
posted by Ruki at 9:11 PM on July 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Poor Miriam. Rest In Pies.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:25 PM on July 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:25 PM on July 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've lost track of how many different people want to kill Dougie Jones.
It's not as many as I thought at first! The casino brothers and Hutch & Chantal are really the only ones actively going for him right now, I think. Once the DNA and prints the Detectives Fusco took come back it's going to get awful busy in Vegas though, assuming the FBI finds out.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:31 PM on July 16, 2017
It's not as many as I thought at first! The casino brothers and Hutch & Chantal are really the only ones actively going for him right now, I think. Once the DNA and prints the Detectives Fusco took come back it's going to get awful busy in Vegas though, assuming the FBI finds out.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:31 PM on July 16, 2017
I was expecting to be proven definitively wrong re: Johnny being Richard's dad, but suddenly I don't know! mainly because of the glaring absence of Richard making a sneering reference to "Uncle Johnny" when he was right there and "Grandma"-ing it up. maybe just maybe that was because that's not who Johnny is to him. I know the most likely thing is still the most likely thing, but I do feel like there was a missing part there we were supposed to notice
and of course Johnny's jaw was wired shut so who knows what he might have been wanting to say. or exactly how articulate he is these days when he hasn't freshly hit his head on something.
I'm also pretty sure Ben and Sylvia mostly raised Richard, no matter who his parents are, and Ben's second failure at raising the son he wanted is what made him the frail old man he is today. that more than age and time. I liked him in his day but Ashley Judd is wrong as can be, he is not a very good man. he is just charming some of the time, and better than Leland Palmer.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:42 PM on July 16, 2017
and of course Johnny's jaw was wired shut so who knows what he might have been wanting to say. or exactly how articulate he is these days when he hasn't freshly hit his head on something.
I'm also pretty sure Ben and Sylvia mostly raised Richard, no matter who his parents are, and Ben's second failure at raising the son he wanted is what made him the frail old man he is today. that more than age and time. I liked him in his day but Ashley Judd is wrong as can be, he is not a very good man. he is just charming some of the time, and better than Leland Palmer.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:42 PM on July 16, 2017
I just really want any other possibility besides Cooplicate and Audrey as Richard's parents. Maybe he's just Audrey and Billy Zane's kid, one of her last scenes in the original series was sleeping with Billy Zane in his plane. (I realized on my recent rewatch that I totally forgot that Pete drove her there and awkwardly waited in his truck outside the whole time, so weird.)
posted by jason_steakums at 10:04 PM on July 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 10:04 PM on July 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Maybe he's just Audrey and Billy Zane's kid
In my head canon, Billy Zane died in a plane crash. I don't want Boop to be Richard's dad. But even if he was, would Audrey know? She was in a coma, and as far as she knew, she had only slept with Billy Zane.
posted by Ruki at 10:19 PM on July 16, 2017
In my head canon, Billy Zane died in a plane crash. I don't want Boop to be Richard's dad. But even if he was, would Audrey know? She was in a coma, and as far as she knew, she had only slept with Billy Zane.
posted by Ruki at 10:19 PM on July 16, 2017
There's no way Billy Zane fathered that monster. He's a cool dude.
posted by maxsparber at 5:15 AM on July 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 5:15 AM on July 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
This was definitely an unsettling episode, but not because of anything supernatural or overly experimental in the storytelling.
Three intense attacks against women: Miriam, Beckie, and Sylvia.
But then some of the stuff that seemed like it was meant as comic relief was also troubling. The stuff with Candie and the sex scene with Janey-E in particular. (I'm still hoping that Lucy outsmarts Chad, so I'm holding out hope on that one.)
The only real moments of lightness were with the FBI team, especially Albert and Constance on their date.
(On preview: there is no way that Richard Horne sprang from the soft, full lips of John Justice Wheeler.)
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 5:28 AM on July 17, 2017
Three intense attacks against women: Miriam, Beckie, and Sylvia.
But then some of the stuff that seemed like it was meant as comic relief was also troubling. The stuff with Candie and the sex scene with Janey-E in particular. (I'm still hoping that Lucy outsmarts Chad, so I'm holding out hope on that one.)
The only real moments of lightness were with the FBI team, especially Albert and Constance on their date.
(On preview: there is no way that Richard Horne sprang from the soft, full lips of John Justice Wheeler.)
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 5:28 AM on July 17, 2017
Also, quoth Wikipedia:
Lynch has said of Chrysta Bell “The first time I saw her perform, I thought she was like an alien. The most beautiful alien ever.”
So, there is some insight into what Lynch was looking for when casting Tamara Preston.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 6:35 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Lynch has said of Chrysta Bell “The first time I saw her perform, I thought she was like an alien. The most beautiful alien ever.”
So, there is some insight into what Lynch was looking for when casting Tamara Preston.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 6:35 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
At this moment, Dougie still has only one person gunning for him: Evil Coop.'
The trouble is, he keeps outsourcing, and they, in turn, keep outsourcing. So there is the shadowy Vegas business, who tied to use local meth heads to blow up his car. When that failed, they tried to use Ike the Spike. Now that that has failed, they are using Tom Sizemore to try to convince the Mitchum Brothers to do their dirty work for them.
Eventually, the prints taken off Dougie will get back to the FBI, and they will show up too, but who knows? That could be seven seasons from now.
posted by maxsparber at 7:28 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
The trouble is, he keeps outsourcing, and they, in turn, keep outsourcing. So there is the shadowy Vegas business, who tied to use local meth heads to blow up his car. When that failed, they tried to use Ike the Spike. Now that that has failed, they are using Tom Sizemore to try to convince the Mitchum Brothers to do their dirty work for them.
Eventually, the prints taken off Dougie will get back to the FBI, and they will show up too, but who knows? That could be seven seasons from now.
posted by maxsparber at 7:28 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Come to think of it, DoppleCoop's tragic flaw is outsourcing.
posted by maxsparber at 7:28 AM on July 17, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 7:28 AM on July 17, 2017 [12 favorites]
Given that the FBI now knows for certain that they're dealing with an unknown quantity in DeuceCoop, I imagine they'll have their ears pricked up for any clues as to his (or the Original Variety Coop's) whereabouts. Once those prints/DNA are run, they'll know about it.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:31 AM on July 17, 2017
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:31 AM on July 17, 2017
Watching this immediately after the Game of Thrones premier made me really appreciate a few aspects of the show:
> The fact that it's visually interesting. It's not just shot-reverse-shot of people talking the story at one another. A good example is Miriam's conversation with Richard, where his reflection is magnified in the glass of the door, but we only get blurry views of both people through a wide angle shot that incorporates the set design of the trailer in the woods.
> The fact that the showrunning team seems content to give things a long time to pay off, without having to constantly deliver 'rewards' to the audience. A lot of scenes that seemed meaningless at first have begun to get payoff. I like the fact that it's not just a checklist of things that the audience wants to see, run through mechanically piece by piece. In other hands, we would have scene Cooper emerge immediately from the black lodge, take a sip of coffee, and mug into the camera. Dougie (as goofy or as problematic as the character can be), presents us with a mystery that unfolds slowly over time and (if it happens at all) gives real meaning to Cooper's emergence back into waking life.
> A love for the language of film. Lingering shots, like the guy sweeping up the Bang Bang, or (indeed) the multiple performances there, treat the show as more than just a conveyance for (ugh) 'watercooler moments'. It seems like something that the directors and the writers wanted to produce, and loved producing, instead of a crass commodity that the network, the artists, and the audience are contractually obligated towards simply because there's a story that has to be told.
posted by codacorolla at 8:08 AM on July 17, 2017 [9 favorites]
> The fact that it's visually interesting. It's not just shot-reverse-shot of people talking the story at one another. A good example is Miriam's conversation with Richard, where his reflection is magnified in the glass of the door, but we only get blurry views of both people through a wide angle shot that incorporates the set design of the trailer in the woods.
> The fact that the showrunning team seems content to give things a long time to pay off, without having to constantly deliver 'rewards' to the audience. A lot of scenes that seemed meaningless at first have begun to get payoff. I like the fact that it's not just a checklist of things that the audience wants to see, run through mechanically piece by piece. In other hands, we would have scene Cooper emerge immediately from the black lodge, take a sip of coffee, and mug into the camera. Dougie (as goofy or as problematic as the character can be), presents us with a mystery that unfolds slowly over time and (if it happens at all) gives real meaning to Cooper's emergence back into waking life.
> A love for the language of film. Lingering shots, like the guy sweeping up the Bang Bang, or (indeed) the multiple performances there, treat the show as more than just a conveyance for (ugh) 'watercooler moments'. It seems like something that the directors and the writers wanted to produce, and loved producing, instead of a crass commodity that the network, the artists, and the audience are contractually obligated towards simply because there's a story that has to be told.
posted by codacorolla at 8:08 AM on July 17, 2017 [9 favorites]
I couldn't get down with the closing musical number. It was too long (6+ minutes!) and way too repetitive, both lyrically and melodically, to keep me engaged. Something about the way they processed her voice - autotune and some aggressive mid-range EQ - made me actually cover my ears. I really wanted to like it, too.
The rest of the episode was, while pretty disturbing, very compelling and edited in a manner that was almost frenetic for this series. I love the way they're tying the plot threads together. When is the video of Coop coming through the box going to get discovered? Or was the dude changing SD cards at that time?
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:38 AM on July 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
The rest of the episode was, while pretty disturbing, very compelling and edited in a manner that was almost frenetic for this series. I love the way they're tying the plot threads together. When is the video of Coop coming through the box going to get discovered? Or was the dude changing SD cards at that time?
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:38 AM on July 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
autotune and some aggressive mid-range EQ
I also would have greatly preferred hearing her without either. Couple of marks lost for sound design on this ep.
posted by flabdablet at 9:05 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I also would have greatly preferred hearing her without either. Couple of marks lost for sound design on this ep.
posted by flabdablet at 9:05 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
And I just realized that Rebekah Del Rio is the same woman who sang Llorando in Mulholland Drive. That performance gave me shivers, and was my favorite part of the film.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:29 AM on July 17, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:29 AM on July 17, 2017 [7 favorites]
Also:
1. Is it possible that Diane is communicating w/ Phillip Jeffries and not Doop, or that she is in leage w/ Jeffries to send Doop back to the black lodge? I don't want to think she's evil.
2. Why doesn't Gordon's hearing aid have some sort of automatic gain adjustment to avoid volume spikes?
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:43 AM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
1. Is it possible that Diane is communicating w/ Phillip Jeffries and not Doop, or that she is in leage w/ Jeffries to send Doop back to the black lodge? I don't want to think she's evil.
2. Why doesn't Gordon's hearing aid have some sort of automatic gain adjustment to avoid volume spikes?
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:43 AM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Couple of marks lost for sound design on this ep.
It's from an album that came out six years ago. Though co-written by David Lynch, it was produced by Heather Holley, so it's not the series' fault.
You're right, though, it would have been nicer without the autotune.
I find I'm saying Dougie's lines along with him.
I love that the whole scene with Sinclair and Candie and the Mitchum brothers is ludicrous, but undercut by the sinister music.
Gordon drawing a cartoon reindeer with a sharpie.
posted by Grangousier at 10:31 AM on July 17, 2017
It's from an album that came out six years ago. Though co-written by David Lynch, it was produced by Heather Holley, so it's not the series' fault.
You're right, though, it would have been nicer without the autotune.
I find I'm saying Dougie's lines along with him.
I love that the whole scene with Sinclair and Candie and the Mitchum brothers is ludicrous, but undercut by the sinister music.
Gordon drawing a cartoon reindeer with a sharpie.
posted by Grangousier at 10:31 AM on July 17, 2017
I was so excited by Action!Dougie a few weeks ago that I totally missed that (Pistol Shrimp/Wild Horse/Mrs. Tig) Stephanie Allynne was on the scene until they showed her "he moved like a cobra" clip on the evening news this week.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:44 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by elsietheeel at 10:44 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Gordon drawing a cartoon reindeer with a sharpie.
Perhaps he's doodling the Wendigo from Hannibal?
...
I was so excited by Action!Dougie a few weeks ago that I totally missed that (Pistol Shrimp...)
For a moment, I thought you were talking about Ike the Spike.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:48 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Perhaps he's doodling the Wendigo from Hannibal?
...
I was so excited by Action!Dougie a few weeks ago that I totally missed that (Pistol Shrimp...)
For a moment, I thought you were talking about Ike the Spike.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:48 AM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
:o
posted by elsietheeel at 10:49 AM on July 17, 2017
posted by elsietheeel at 10:49 AM on July 17, 2017
Also: "Alternative spellings: Wiindigoo (the source of the English word, from the Ojibwe language), Wendigo, Weendigo, Windego, Wiindgoo, Windgo, Weendigo, Wiindigoo, Windago, Windiga, Wendego, Windagoo, Widjigo, Wiijigoo, Wijigo, Weejigo, Wìdjigò (in the Algonquin language), Wintigo, Wentigo, Wehndigo, Wentiko, Windgoe, Windgo, Wintsigo and wīhtikōw (in the Cree language); the Proto-Algonquian term was *wi·nteko·wa, which probably meant "owl" in their original language."
posted by elsietheeel at 10:57 AM on July 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 10:57 AM on July 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of why I don't have any problems regarding consent and fugue Cooper on this show: Douglas Jones is no victim. He moves like a cobra. He clearly enjoys certain things (coffee, sex, the Clapper, and investigation), and has no problem stopping events to which he does not consent.
I've had a sick feeling in the pit in my stomach ever since I first saw Janey-E soften towards Coop. Every episode we get closer to the old Coop's return, while she works harder and harder to stay married to Dougie. I can't think of a way in which it won't be very sad when she realizes that Dougie is gone for good.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:59 AM on July 17, 2017 [7 favorites]
I've had a sick feeling in the pit in my stomach ever since I first saw Janey-E soften towards Coop. Every episode we get closer to the old Coop's return, while she works harder and harder to stay married to Dougie. I can't think of a way in which it won't be very sad when she realizes that Dougie is gone for good.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:59 AM on July 17, 2017 [7 favorites]
I find I'm saying Dougie's lines along with him.
peeee-culiar
posted by jason_steakums at 11:08 AM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
peeee-culiar
posted by jason_steakums at 11:08 AM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've had a sick feeling in the pit in my stomach ever since I first saw Janey-E soften towards Coop.
Based on all the people gunning for Dougie, I almost expect the story to kill off Janey & Sonny. The assassins will screw up somehow and end up killing the wife & kid instead of the target. And that traumatic event will be what either pulls the real Coop out of his fugue. Or pushes him in deeper and he is either lost forever or ends up back at the lodge.
I know that turn of the story would be a cliched revenge or soap opera-ish trope: finally give a character happiness just so it can be ripped away again. Also, the hero's quest is interrupted by a siren song of sex & domestic bliss, thus the happy times have to go away so the quest can continue. Lynch loves his soap operas so it's possible. But seems too obvious a turn, so probably not. Still can't shake the apprehension though.
posted by honestcoyote at 12:00 PM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Based on all the people gunning for Dougie, I almost expect the story to kill off Janey & Sonny. The assassins will screw up somehow and end up killing the wife & kid instead of the target. And that traumatic event will be what either pulls the real Coop out of his fugue. Or pushes him in deeper and he is either lost forever or ends up back at the lodge.
I know that turn of the story would be a cliched revenge or soap opera-ish trope: finally give a character happiness just so it can be ripped away again. Also, the hero's quest is interrupted by a siren song of sex & domestic bliss, thus the happy times have to go away so the quest can continue. Lynch loves his soap operas so it's possible. But seems too obvious a turn, so probably not. Still can't shake the apprehension though.
posted by honestcoyote at 12:00 PM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Throughout this season, I've had this strange experience when watching; I don't even know how to express it exactly. But. On the one hand, the show moves rather slowly, the scenes are given time to develop or, at times, not to develop, to stand still for too many seconds, even minutes; as far as I can tell, there's not much done through editing (although that may be simply that I'm not able to recognize what's done), everything's mostly long(ish) shots by a still camera. The individual scenes seem to simply be there, on the screen, without moving; it's almost like watching paintings or photographs for an hour. On the other hand, during almost all episodes this season I've been startled by how soon they seem to end, how quickly they go by, and me, I'm almost not even noticing. "Oh, the musical number is coming on, that can't be right, the episode just started." It's like I've lost time, almost, watching Twin Peaks. Everything seems to stand still, move very slowly, but nevertheless, fast enough that I can't even keep track of the time. Or, another possibility is that the slowness and stillness have the effect of altering my subjective experience of time, and I no longer pay attention to the things usually extremely relevant in tv shows, such as length of scenes, speech turns, the proportionality of actions and behaviors, etc. It is a strange experience and the strangeness is why I love the show. So, keep going, Lynch.
posted by sapagan at 12:05 PM on July 17, 2017 [19 favorites]
posted by sapagan at 12:05 PM on July 17, 2017 [19 favorites]
Also: "Alternative spellings: Wiindigoo (the source of the English word, from the Ojibwe language), Wendigo, Weendigo, Windego, Wiindgoo, Windgo, Weendigo, Wiindigoo, Windago, Windiga, Wendego, Windagoo, Widjigo, Wiijigoo, Wijigo, Weejigo, Wìdjigò (in the Algonquin language), Wintigo, Wentigo, Wehndigo, Wentiko, Windgoe, Windgo, Wintsigo and wīhtikōw (in the Cree language); the Proto-Algonquian term was *wi·nteko·wa, which probably meant "owl" in their original language."
Honestly, I'm flattered, but Windigo will do just fine.
posted by Windigo at 1:06 PM on July 17, 2017 [9 favorites]
Honestly, I'm flattered, but Windigo will do just fine.
posted by Windigo at 1:06 PM on July 17, 2017 [9 favorites]
Although Dougie retains Cooper's instincts on some level, he seems more than anything like a baby in an adult body. His feelings for Janey-E (in bed, anyhow), Jade, coffee, and a huge slice of cake appear indistinguishable. He loooooves them. Free of the complicating factors adult intelligence brings into affairs of the appetite, Dougie is a pure sensualist. So I don't think he's exactly being taken advantage of. But I do wonder just how miserable and shallow whatever relationship Janey-E had with the real Dougie must have been, if this constitutes an improvement upon it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:18 PM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:18 PM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is Dougie's strange sex move his rendition of "sometimes my arms bend back?"
posted by escabeche at 3:38 PM on July 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 3:38 PM on July 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
Like, are we not talking about the apparition of Laura that Gordon saw in the hotel, or...?
That gave me more of a startle than anything I've seen in years.
posted by roolya_boolya at 5:23 PM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
That gave me more of a startle than anything I've seen in years.
posted by roolya_boolya at 5:23 PM on July 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
The end song did not work for me this time - the autotune, the miming, it just felt weird; overly self-conscious and unnatural. But it did hammer home to me just how amazingly real the ostensibly 'weird and unnatural' world of this show feels the rest of the time.
posted by freya_lamb at 5:23 PM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by freya_lamb at 5:23 PM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Not 100% sure how all the images actually relate to the tweets but I'm liking his Joe Scarborough/Eraser Head tweet.
posted by christopherious at 5:52 PM on July 17, 2017
posted by christopherious at 5:52 PM on July 17, 2017
So is RUN SILENT, RUN DRAPES an official retail outlet for Dr. Amp’s Gold Shit-Digging Shovels? Or does Nadine just have her shop window rigged up so that she can push a button to part the curtains and display her golden shit-shovel whenever the moment is right? Like, "AMEN DOCTOR JACOBY! TURN ON THE BATSIGNAL AND LET EVERYONE KNOW IT'S TIME TO START DIGGING OUR WAY OUT OF THE SHIT!"
posted by straight at 5:54 PM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 5:54 PM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
It did amaze me that HDS had such a clear strong voice for being in his 90's. Good on him.
posted by Ruki at 11:35 PM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 11:35 PM on July 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I am a bit confused but maybe someone will chime in and clarify some of these questions and ideas I've had watching this season:
- Cooper, inhabiting Doug's body, is in a fugue state because he was trapped withing the black lodge for 20+ years? This is my guess.
- Dougie is Cooper's doppelganger who is currently inhabiting Cooper's persona - wouldn't that mean that there is no "Cooper entity" in the black lodge which goes against what Arm was talking about not being able to be in/out simultaneously?
Other thoughts:
This season has seemed more violent/gross than previous seasons but it's not completely out of the norm for Lynch to deal with viciousness and violence - still a little bit much at times. The kid getting hit by the truck? Jesus that was grim.
posted by alrightokay at 8:04 AM on July 18, 2017
- Cooper, inhabiting Doug's body, is in a fugue state because he was trapped withing the black lodge for 20+ years? This is my guess.
- Dougie is Cooper's doppelganger who is currently inhabiting Cooper's persona - wouldn't that mean that there is no "Cooper entity" in the black lodge which goes against what Arm was talking about not being able to be in/out simultaneously?
Other thoughts:
This season has seemed more violent/gross than previous seasons but it's not completely out of the norm for Lynch to deal with viciousness and violence - still a little bit much at times. The kid getting hit by the truck? Jesus that was grim.
posted by alrightokay at 8:04 AM on July 18, 2017
The kid getting hit by the truck? Jesus that was grim.
I feel crushed by admiration for how relentlessly they're explaining and repeating that Richard Horne is actually pure evil and not redeemable no matter what. for me it wasn't even killing the child that was the point of no return, because if you really wanted to you could say, well, he was high and oops an accident. and it wasn't even him not stopping after he'd done it or cursing to himself as he drove away about how it was other people's fault, that could be panic and adrenaline. it was when the first thing he did, right after, once he had control of himself back, was pull over and furtively wash the blood off the front of the truck. that was the most morally disgusting thing I ever saw. just amazing.
(I don't think it's likely because it's this show, but he really feels to me like purest human evil and not a Lodge spirit. just feel, not story logic. but they are having to make him very, very bad to draw an uncrossable line between him and, say, a Ben Horne, who did do some very bad things to teen girls and his own family that are now all forgiven or forgotten. but it is a totally different caliber of badness.)
and then when the camera doesn't follow him into the trailer and you just hear Miriam getting murdered and don't have to see it, all the explicit violence in previous episodes makes that shocking in itself, that they don't force you to witness it. like: what, mercy NOW? what did we do to deserve this? and then the camera goes back in to show her body, anyway! it was only playing at letting us think we wouldn't have to see it. god. I have the weakest stomach in the world but like I say I admire the artfulness so much I can't stand it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:25 AM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
I feel crushed by admiration for how relentlessly they're explaining and repeating that Richard Horne is actually pure evil and not redeemable no matter what. for me it wasn't even killing the child that was the point of no return, because if you really wanted to you could say, well, he was high and oops an accident. and it wasn't even him not stopping after he'd done it or cursing to himself as he drove away about how it was other people's fault, that could be panic and adrenaline. it was when the first thing he did, right after, once he had control of himself back, was pull over and furtively wash the blood off the front of the truck. that was the most morally disgusting thing I ever saw. just amazing.
(I don't think it's likely because it's this show, but he really feels to me like purest human evil and not a Lodge spirit. just feel, not story logic. but they are having to make him very, very bad to draw an uncrossable line between him and, say, a Ben Horne, who did do some very bad things to teen girls and his own family that are now all forgiven or forgotten. but it is a totally different caliber of badness.)
and then when the camera doesn't follow him into the trailer and you just hear Miriam getting murdered and don't have to see it, all the explicit violence in previous episodes makes that shocking in itself, that they don't force you to witness it. like: what, mercy NOW? what did we do to deserve this? and then the camera goes back in to show her body, anyway! it was only playing at letting us think we wouldn't have to see it. god. I have the weakest stomach in the world but like I say I admire the artfulness so much I can't stand it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:25 AM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
is in a fugue state because he was trapped withing the black lodge for 20+ years?
Maybe, but there's also a distinct moment just before he passed through the outlet into the real world when he gets zapped and his face goes blank like Dougie's. He seemed like himself before the zap.
wouldn't that mean that there is no "Cooper entity" in the black lodge which goes against what Arm was talking about not being able to be in/out simultaneously?
Probably, but Mr. C totally breaking lodge rules by staying out past 25 years, so lodge affairs could be in disarray.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:45 AM on July 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
Maybe, but there's also a distinct moment just before he passed through the outlet into the real world when he gets zapped and his face goes blank like Dougie's. He seemed like himself before the zap.
wouldn't that mean that there is no "Cooper entity" in the black lodge which goes against what Arm was talking about not being able to be in/out simultaneously?
Probably, but Mr. C totally breaking lodge rules by staying out past 25 years, so lodge affairs could be in disarray.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:45 AM on July 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
- Cooper, inhabiting Doug's body, is in a fugue state because he was trapped withing the black lodge for 20+ years? This is my guess.
Nope, Cooper is in his own body, as evidenced by the obvious differences between his physique and that of Dougie. When he went through the electrical outlet in E03, he physically switched places with Dougie, who ended up back in the waiting room of the Black Lodge. Notice that Cooper appeared wearing his own black G-man suit, complete with his Great Northern key in the pocket. It's him, but because everyone expects him to be Dougie (and he's too fried by the interdimensional travel to say otherwise), they assume that he's Dougie.
- Dougie is Cooper's doppelganger who is currently inhabiting Cooper's persona - wouldn't that mean that there is no "Cooper entity" in the black lodge which goes against what Arm was talking about not being able to be in/out simultaneously?
The conversation between MIKE and Dougie (immediately before Dougie is disintegrated into the Owl Cave ring and golden bead) basically says outright that Dougie is a decoy created by Cooper's evil Doppelganger to prevent him from having to return to the Black Lodge. He's not Cooper or the Doppelganger, but a "good enough" replica that the Doppel made as an insurance policy.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:00 AM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
Nope, Cooper is in his own body, as evidenced by the obvious differences between his physique and that of Dougie. When he went through the electrical outlet in E03, he physically switched places with Dougie, who ended up back in the waiting room of the Black Lodge. Notice that Cooper appeared wearing his own black G-man suit, complete with his Great Northern key in the pocket. It's him, but because everyone expects him to be Dougie (and he's too fried by the interdimensional travel to say otherwise), they assume that he's Dougie.
- Dougie is Cooper's doppelganger who is currently inhabiting Cooper's persona - wouldn't that mean that there is no "Cooper entity" in the black lodge which goes against what Arm was talking about not being able to be in/out simultaneously?
The conversation between MIKE and Dougie (immediately before Dougie is disintegrated into the Owl Cave ring and golden bead) basically says outright that Dougie is a decoy created by Cooper's evil Doppelganger to prevent him from having to return to the Black Lodge. He's not Cooper or the Doppelganger, but a "good enough" replica that the Doppel made as an insurance policy.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:00 AM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
Andrew Bujalski on Twin Peaks:
I’d read on the internet that they’d originally planned to do nine episodes, but after Lynch and Showtime emerged from whatever their contract dispute was, the order mysteriously expanded to 18. We imagined Mark Frost saying to Lynch, “So what are we going to do with these other nine hours?” and Lynch saying (in Gordon Cole voice), “Don’t worry, everything can just take twice as long!”posted by kenko at 9:43 AM on July 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ben Horne, who did do some very bad things to teen girls and his own family that are now all forgiven or forgotten
I have neither forgotten nor forgiven what Ben did to those girls or to the people harmed by burning the mill. Unless he's done quite a bit to try to help the people he hurt, he's still a scumbag villain in my book.
posted by straight at 12:26 PM on July 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
I have neither forgotten nor forgiven what Ben did to those girls or to the people harmed by burning the mill. Unless he's done quite a bit to try to help the people he hurt, he's still a scumbag villain in my book.
posted by straight at 12:26 PM on July 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
What did we think of Ben refusing to send Sylvia (and, by extension, Johnny) any money to replace what Richard stole? There's a lot we don't know for sure -- the condition of the relationship between Ben and Sylvia at this point, or that of Ben and Richard, or (for that matter) the state of Ben's finances -- but this struck me as evidence maybe Ben hasn't changed quite as much as we thought.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:01 PM on July 18, 2017
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:01 PM on July 18, 2017
He's still Ben. As soon as he got off the phone with his ex wife, he asked his employee out to dinner. Nobody's forgiving him - least of all the show creators.
posted by destructive cactus at 4:25 PM on July 18, 2017
posted by destructive cactus at 4:25 PM on July 18, 2017
"you just hear Miriam getting murdered"
It's worse than that. When they pan into the trailer to show the candle, the open hissing oven, and then Miriam, you can clearly see her still breathing even though her face is resting in a pool of blood. So she's most likely going to burn to death.
posted by Brittanie at 4:54 PM on July 18, 2017
It's worse than that. When they pan into the trailer to show the candle, the open hissing oven, and then Miriam, you can clearly see her still breathing even though her face is resting in a pool of blood. So she's most likely going to burn to death.
posted by Brittanie at 4:54 PM on July 18, 2017
What did we think of Ben refusing to send Sylvia (and, by extension, Johnny) any money to replace what Richard stole?
I just thought oh -- she's been taking care of Johnny by herself for how many years now? of course he doesn't live with Ben, if they're divorced or even just separated. of course.
& regarding Ben, I mostly mean Ben's sins are forgotten inside the show, not outside, not counting what Sylvia remembers and holds against him. but I did find it intensely aggravating that him getting called a good man was treated (not here, but places) as though it said something about his character instead of something much more interesting about Ashley Judd's character - that she is a liar or an idiot or a little of both. or perhaps just a terrible judge of character. there hasn't been enough about her to know much except that she looks a whole lot like Ben's daughter and is the same age. but Ben's actual daughter saw what kind of man he was way back when she was just a child and loved him anyway, which always seemed to irritate and humiliate him a bit.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:37 PM on July 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
I just thought oh -- she's been taking care of Johnny by herself for how many years now? of course he doesn't live with Ben, if they're divorced or even just separated. of course.
& regarding Ben, I mostly mean Ben's sins are forgotten inside the show, not outside, not counting what Sylvia remembers and holds against him. but I did find it intensely aggravating that him getting called a good man was treated (not here, but places) as though it said something about his character instead of something much more interesting about Ashley Judd's character - that she is a liar or an idiot or a little of both. or perhaps just a terrible judge of character. there hasn't been enough about her to know much except that she looks a whole lot like Ben's daughter and is the same age. but Ben's actual daughter saw what kind of man he was way back when she was just a child and loved him anyway, which always seemed to irritate and humiliate him a bit.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:37 PM on July 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
How much of Ben's misdeeds is known in the general populace?
Ashley Judd's character had no idea who Laura Palmer even was, recall.
posted by kenko at 6:52 PM on July 18, 2017
Ashley Judd's character had no idea who Laura Palmer even was, recall.
posted by kenko at 6:52 PM on July 18, 2017
Even within the original series (as I recall; it's been a long time since I watched the dreary middle stretch of season two), Ben seemed to be trying to reform after he came out of his Civil War fugue state. It met with disastrous results, obviously, but the effort was made and appeared to be sincere.
I think the current state of Ben's redemption is difficult for me to gauge because I'm not sure how seriously we're meant to think about his past misdeeds. If the lens of Fire Walk with Me had been applied to Ben Horne at his worst, I don't think we'd see him much differently than Jacques Renault. But Ben always seemed to occupy the more whimsical side of the show, if for no other reason than he wasn't beating his wife with a bar of soap in a sock or possessed by a literal demon. He was just portrayed as kind of a philandering asshole and a sleazebag, the kind of character who was more soap opera archetype than three dimensional person. Considered as a real person, though, he was clearly a pretty vile human being. I do feel that the modern Ben is someone we are meant to take seriously as a character, but I don't know whether we're meant to think hard on who he used to be. This show is much different from the old one in that sense; characters all seem to exist on the same weird level. Well, not Wally.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:14 PM on July 18, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think the current state of Ben's redemption is difficult for me to gauge because I'm not sure how seriously we're meant to think about his past misdeeds. If the lens of Fire Walk with Me had been applied to Ben Horne at his worst, I don't think we'd see him much differently than Jacques Renault. But Ben always seemed to occupy the more whimsical side of the show, if for no other reason than he wasn't beating his wife with a bar of soap in a sock or possessed by a literal demon. He was just portrayed as kind of a philandering asshole and a sleazebag, the kind of character who was more soap opera archetype than three dimensional person. Considered as a real person, though, he was clearly a pretty vile human being. I do feel that the modern Ben is someone we are meant to take seriously as a character, but I don't know whether we're meant to think hard on who he used to be. This show is much different from the old one in that sense; characters all seem to exist on the same weird level. Well, not Wally.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:14 PM on July 18, 2017 [4 favorites]
No, not Wally, for his dharma is the road.
posted by bstreep at 8:45 PM on July 18, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by bstreep at 8:45 PM on July 18, 2017 [7 favorites]
That’s a lovely turn of phrase.
posted by christopherious at 8:48 PM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by christopherious at 8:48 PM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
Middle-aged Benjamin Horne at his worst was vile (keeping Blackie hooked on drugs is objectively evil), but from what I've seen way better than adult Richard Horne at his best.
posted by infinitewindow at 9:07 PM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 9:07 PM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
I do feel that the modern Ben is someone we are meant to take seriously as a character, but I don't know whether we're meant to think hard on who he used to be.
If the show still felt the way it did in the first two seasons, I would say No. because he and Catherine Martell were such classic soap opera characters, like the two Erica Kanes of Twin Peaks. and seriously, when I watched a little regular soap opera as a sick-at-home kid for the first time, long before I watched Twin Peaks, it really fucked with my head. because people on those shows do really awful dastardly things, like plotting against their own family and engineering other peoples' humiliations and murders and so on, and then the world turns and the sands fall through the hourglass and the martyred characters fall out of favor and the bad ones suffer a lot and then they get to be the heroes again. at least it was like that in the 80s and 90s.
if you are too young to know this is just soap convention and the way you have to play it to maintain an endless story with melodrama but a relatively stable cast of characters, it's a really vertiginous disorienting effect. like morals are all up and down! yesterday's rapist is today's romantic hero! but then you get used to it and it doesn't seem so strange anymore, and you start hating to see your favorite characters happy and successful because it means the next humiliating catastrophe will be theirs.
anyway the Catherine/Josie thing was like that, it was excruciating but so soapy that for a long time I expected it was only a matter of time before Josie was on top again. in a real soap, she would have been, but she never was. the register shifts on Twin Peaks have always been amazing and I always wonder how safe the apparently safe characters like Lucy and Andy really are. they're still the same comic relief they always were but I don't feel the same certainty anymore that they and Dick Tremayne live on a different and more innocent plane. I cannot imagine Lynch deciding to let Richard Horne butcher one of them onscreen, but I also can't imagine him being afraid to.
anyway! Ben is a classic soap opera hero, adorable even when depraved. and I think he is still supposed to appear as one. but Twin Peaks is less a soap opera than it ever has been, so this is an strange and anticipatory feeling to have about him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:58 PM on July 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
If the show still felt the way it did in the first two seasons, I would say No. because he and Catherine Martell were such classic soap opera characters, like the two Erica Kanes of Twin Peaks. and seriously, when I watched a little regular soap opera as a sick-at-home kid for the first time, long before I watched Twin Peaks, it really fucked with my head. because people on those shows do really awful dastardly things, like plotting against their own family and engineering other peoples' humiliations and murders and so on, and then the world turns and the sands fall through the hourglass and the martyred characters fall out of favor and the bad ones suffer a lot and then they get to be the heroes again. at least it was like that in the 80s and 90s.
if you are too young to know this is just soap convention and the way you have to play it to maintain an endless story with melodrama but a relatively stable cast of characters, it's a really vertiginous disorienting effect. like morals are all up and down! yesterday's rapist is today's romantic hero! but then you get used to it and it doesn't seem so strange anymore, and you start hating to see your favorite characters happy and successful because it means the next humiliating catastrophe will be theirs.
anyway the Catherine/Josie thing was like that, it was excruciating but so soapy that for a long time I expected it was only a matter of time before Josie was on top again. in a real soap, she would have been, but she never was. the register shifts on Twin Peaks have always been amazing and I always wonder how safe the apparently safe characters like Lucy and Andy really are. they're still the same comic relief they always were but I don't feel the same certainty anymore that they and Dick Tremayne live on a different and more innocent plane. I cannot imagine Lynch deciding to let Richard Horne butcher one of them onscreen, but I also can't imagine him being afraid to.
anyway! Ben is a classic soap opera hero, adorable even when depraved. and I think he is still supposed to appear as one. but Twin Peaks is less a soap opera than it ever has been, so this is an strange and anticipatory feeling to have about him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:58 PM on July 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
Johnny calling Silvia "grandma" - mere conjecture, but I think that Richard might be a Ben Horne byblow/bastard;
1) mother paid off to disappear/deceased
2) Hornes raised Rcihard as their own, Silvia is devastated
3) Richard grow up calling Siliva "mom" until he finds out, and uses "grandma" as an insult (my Real Mom could have been your daughter!)
4) Being called "grandma" really hurts Silvia, bringing back old hurts
5) Richard sees the pain, keeps using "gramda" to address Silvia
The scene where Richard home invades Silvia's place, I thought that he used a weird inflection when calling her grandma.
The detail that could change the most is if Johnny is Richard's biological father.
It's super weird that Silvia (Ben Horne's ex-wife?) is taking care of Johnny Horne (her ex-husband's developmentally delayed and - now? - cognitively ill also) younger brother. Unless it's a condition for her receiving alimony, which makes zero sense outside of corruption/bribery/influence on behalf of Ben.
Yeah, I was under the impression that Ben Horne's transgressions were never widely known among the populace.
posted by porpoise at 10:16 PM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
1) mother paid off to disappear/deceased
2) Hornes raised Rcihard as their own, Silvia is devastated
3) Richard grow up calling Siliva "mom" until he finds out, and uses "grandma" as an insult (my Real Mom could have been your daughter!)
4) Being called "grandma" really hurts Silvia, bringing back old hurts
5) Richard sees the pain, keeps using "gramda" to address Silvia
The scene where Richard home invades Silvia's place, I thought that he used a weird inflection when calling her grandma.
The detail that could change the most is if Johnny is Richard's biological father.
It's super weird that Silvia (Ben Horne's ex-wife?) is taking care of Johnny Horne (her ex-husband's developmentally delayed and - now? - cognitively ill also) younger brother. Unless it's a condition for her receiving alimony, which makes zero sense outside of corruption/bribery/influence on behalf of Ben.
Yeah, I was under the impression that Ben Horne's transgressions were never widely known among the populace.
posted by porpoise at 10:16 PM on July 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
the register shifts on Twin Peaks have always been amazing and I always wonder how safe the apparently safe characters like Lucy and Andy really are. they're still the same comic relief they always were but I don't feel the same certainty anymore that they and Dick Tremayne live on a different and more innocent plane. I cannot imagine Lynch deciding to let Richard Horne butcher one of them onscreen, but I also can't imagine him being afraid to.
I was really worried about Lucy when fucking Chad went to intercept the letter, he was so inept at being sneaky and I don't know how far he'd go to cover that up. Hopefully her next step is just to tell Truman and not to try to get the letter herself or anything.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:54 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was really worried about Lucy when fucking Chad went to intercept the letter, he was so inept at being sneaky and I don't know how far he'd go to cover that up. Hopefully her next step is just to tell Truman and not to try to get the letter herself or anything.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:54 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
The detail that could change the most is if Johnny is Richard's biological father.
It's super weird that Silvia (Ben Horne's ex-wife?) is taking care of Johnny Horne (her ex-husband's developmentally delayed and - now? - cognitively ill also) younger brother. Unless it's a condition for her receiving alimony, which makes zero sense outside of corruption/bribery/influence on behalf of Ben.
Johnny is Ben and Sylvia's son, not Ben's brother. But I saw a comment on Reddit speculating that the reason Johnny is receiving at-home care is because he had a relationship with someone in a care facility and that's where Richard came from, and that actually fits nicely.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:57 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's super weird that Silvia (Ben Horne's ex-wife?) is taking care of Johnny Horne (her ex-husband's developmentally delayed and - now? - cognitively ill also) younger brother. Unless it's a condition for her receiving alimony, which makes zero sense outside of corruption/bribery/influence on behalf of Ben.
Johnny is Ben and Sylvia's son, not Ben's brother. But I saw a comment on Reddit speculating that the reason Johnny is receiving at-home care is because he had a relationship with someone in a care facility and that's where Richard came from, and that actually fits nicely.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:57 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
It provides a chilling parallel to the DougieCoop/Janey-E sex scene, too.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:29 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:29 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Johnny calling Silvia "grandma" - mere conjecture, but I think that Richard might be a Ben Horne byblow/bastard;
1) mother paid off to disappear/deceased
2) Hornes raised Rcihard as their own, Silvia is devastated
I like this a lot because it would mean Richard grew up either believing that he was living with his grandparents because his real parents abandoned him, or grew up knowing that Ben was his dad but got completely disregarded by him and raised by Sylvia, not even a blood relative, on whom he displaced all of his self-hatred -- she, like him, was disposable to Ben, but he decided that she, unlike him, deserved it. or could say out loud that she deserved it but could not admit his belief that he himself did too. it would provide a reasonable psychological background without giving him any excuse for anything.
but my heart still belongs to the idea that Johnny's his dad and that all his actions at Sylvia's house were done with that in his mind, that his dad was watching. his major maternal figure also being his weak dad's mom would also be a good explanation-not-excuse for certain of his traits. although I think I differ from most johnny-theorists in choosing to believe that any procreation happened in one of his moments of apparent lucidity, which I choose to believe he has. wishful thinking.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:20 AM on July 19, 2017
1) mother paid off to disappear/deceased
2) Hornes raised Rcihard as their own, Silvia is devastated
I like this a lot because it would mean Richard grew up either believing that he was living with his grandparents because his real parents abandoned him, or grew up knowing that Ben was his dad but got completely disregarded by him and raised by Sylvia, not even a blood relative, on whom he displaced all of his self-hatred -- she, like him, was disposable to Ben, but he decided that she, unlike him, deserved it. or could say out loud that she deserved it but could not admit his belief that he himself did too. it would provide a reasonable psychological background without giving him any excuse for anything.
but my heart still belongs to the idea that Johnny's his dad and that all his actions at Sylvia's house were done with that in his mind, that his dad was watching. his major maternal figure also being his weak dad's mom would also be a good explanation-not-excuse for certain of his traits. although I think I differ from most johnny-theorists in choosing to believe that any procreation happened in one of his moments of apparent lucidity, which I choose to believe he has. wishful thinking.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:20 AM on July 19, 2017
I think that Richard might be a Ben Horne byblow/bastard;
That's a lot of plot to have to fit in at this point. We know Audtry is going to appear again, because Sherilyn Fenn was part of the promotion. We know that evil coop visited her in the hospital, because they said so on the show.
And we know that Twin Peaks has long been about intergenerational evil, how the behavior of a previous generation can scar and warp the next one. Additionally, the whole Janey-E plotline has been Coop essentially living out a dream of domestic bliss, where he has a strong and beautiful wife, an adoring son, and a job he is unaccountably good at. The show has been letting him luxuriate in that bliss, but keeps making efforts to shatter it.
Unfortunately, it seems the most likely option is that Richard is DoppleCoop's son via Audrey. That fits in with all the themes.
posted by maxsparber at 7:38 AM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's a lot of plot to have to fit in at this point. We know Audtry is going to appear again, because Sherilyn Fenn was part of the promotion. We know that evil coop visited her in the hospital, because they said so on the show.
And we know that Twin Peaks has long been about intergenerational evil, how the behavior of a previous generation can scar and warp the next one. Additionally, the whole Janey-E plotline has been Coop essentially living out a dream of domestic bliss, where he has a strong and beautiful wife, an adoring son, and a job he is unaccountably good at. The show has been letting him luxuriate in that bliss, but keeps making efforts to shatter it.
Unfortunately, it seems the most likely option is that Richard is DoppleCoop's son via Audrey. That fits in with all the themes.
posted by maxsparber at 7:38 AM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
And we know that Twin Peaks has long been about intergenerational evil, how the behavior of a previous generation can scar and warp the next one.
This is actually something that would bug me about Richard being Cooplicate's kid, because Cooplicate wasn't a part of his life and that would make the evil in Richard something in his nature, while Twin Peaks has been more about cycles of abuse.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:52 AM on July 19, 2017
This is actually something that would bug me about Richard being Cooplicate's kid, because Cooplicate wasn't a part of his life and that would make the evil in Richard something in his nature, while Twin Peaks has been more about cycles of abuse.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:52 AM on July 19, 2017
There was no evidence Little Nicky had been abused, and yet somehow he was a devil.
posted by maxsparber at 7:53 AM on July 19, 2017
posted by maxsparber at 7:53 AM on July 19, 2017
Yes, I brought up Little Nicky to prove my point.
posted by maxsparber at 7:53 AM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 7:53 AM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
The matching denim-shearling jacket and shorts outfits that Dick Tremayne subjected hime to were pretty much child abuse.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:56 AM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:56 AM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
You are obviously not a Tremaniac.
posted by maxsparber at 8:59 AM on July 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 8:59 AM on July 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
One theory I read that I like is that Miriam actually sent the letter about Richard to the other Sheriff Truman. The last name on the letter Chad intercepts is different than Miriam's last name in the credits. "It could make a difference."
posted by speicus at 10:48 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by speicus at 10:48 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
That would be an incredibly Chad-like mistake to make.
posted by codacorolla at 11:12 AM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 11:12 AM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Miriam seemed like she was bluffing anyway. It's equally likely that there was no letter.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:16 AM on July 19, 2017
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:16 AM on July 19, 2017
The Sheriff Truman who punched Albert in the face would never have hired Chad. Just sayin'.
posted by straight at 11:52 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 11:52 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Chad seems like a guy who's juiced in somehow. Nobody likes him, nobody wants to work with him, and yet he's there.
posted by infinitewindow at 12:09 PM on July 19, 2017
posted by infinitewindow at 12:09 PM on July 19, 2017
I just want Chad to get the Jacques Renault special courtesy of Andy Brennan, plzkthx. Also if we could get Windom Earle back just to make Richard his new Leo...
posted by jason_steakums at 6:19 PM on July 19, 2017
posted by jason_steakums at 6:19 PM on July 19, 2017
We need some new categories of character orientation if we're going to slice the world as finely as Lynch. The lawful/chaotic axis is really not enough.
Bob: gleeful evil
Cooperduper: methodical evil
Ben: petty evil
Jacques: casual evil
Richard: fearful evil
Chad: incompetent evil
posted by flabdablet at 9:15 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Bob: gleeful evil
Cooperduper: methodical evil
Ben: petty evil
Jacques: casual evil
Richard: fearful evil
Chad: incompetent evil
posted by flabdablet at 9:15 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
flabdablet, you've made me realize something: Windom Earle from season 2 was a terrible villain because he was going for gleeful evil (an area already covered by Bob) but turned out in the end to be incompetent anticlimactic evil.
posted by infinitewindow at 9:56 PM on July 19, 2017
posted by infinitewindow at 9:56 PM on July 19, 2017
Agreed. Deuce Coop would kick Windom Earle's butt in any game longer than five minutes.
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 PM on July 19, 2017
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 PM on July 19, 2017
Windom Earle from season 2 was a terrible villain
neigh
posted by jason_steakums at 10:02 PM on July 19, 2017
neigh
posted by jason_steakums at 10:02 PM on July 19, 2017
Still can't decide whether Doop would come out on top in a match against Heisenberg.
posted by flabdablet at 10:18 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 10:18 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Windom Earle from season 2 was a terrible villain because he was going for gleeful evil (an area already covered by Bob)
Earle's gleeful evil always struck me as a somewhat cargo cultish response to Bob; his madness always appeared to be at least somewhat method-driven while Bob's is just pure and raw and completely self-sufficient.
posted by flabdablet at 10:23 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Earle's gleeful evil always struck me as a somewhat cargo cultish response to Bob; his madness always appeared to be at least somewhat method-driven while Bob's is just pure and raw and completely self-sufficient.
posted by flabdablet at 10:23 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mr. C got outsmarted by Darya's boyfriend, a character so dumb and inconsequential his name escapes me completely, so I think that if Heisenberg had the time to put a plan together, Mr. C would be pretty screwed. Of course, he would then be resurrected by evil Lodge spirits, an edge Heisenberg probably does not share. I feel like we should get the mefite who does the D&D interpretations of Game of Thrones plot points in here for this.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:10 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:10 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Chad seems like a guy who's juiced in somehow. Nobody likes him, nobody wants to work with him, and yet he's there.
My head-canon is that he's the nephew of the mayor or some other local bigwig, and has likely pressed that advantage enough times in the past that it's basically an unspoken (yet fully acknowledged) subtext of every interaction that he has with his bosses and coworkers.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:20 AM on July 20, 2017
My head-canon is that he's the nephew of the mayor or some other local bigwig, and has likely pressed that advantage enough times in the past that it's basically an unspoken (yet fully acknowledged) subtext of every interaction that he has with his bosses and coworkers.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:20 AM on July 20, 2017
It's worse than that. When they pan into the trailer to show the candle, the open hissing oven, and then Miriam, you can clearly see her still breathing even though her face is resting in a pool of blood. So she's most likely going to burn to death.
OTOH, first rule of soaps and drama in general - if you don't see the body, they ain't dead. Not only did we not see her die on screen, we didn't even see (or hear in the distance) the trailer exploding. Yeah, we've got a slow gas leak and a lit candle, but also a completely smashed in front door right by the oven that could be preventing a critical event.
BTW, if you want the original version of Rebekah del Rio's track sans autotune - tadaa!
posted by FatherDagon at 12:26 PM on July 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
OTOH, first rule of soaps and drama in general - if you don't see the body, they ain't dead. Not only did we not see her die on screen, we didn't even see (or hear in the distance) the trailer exploding. Yeah, we've got a slow gas leak and a lit candle, but also a completely smashed in front door right by the oven that could be preventing a critical event.
BTW, if you want the original version of Rebekah del Rio's track sans autotune - tadaa!
posted by FatherDagon at 12:26 PM on July 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
Chad's that guy in almost every workplace. He's incompetent. Makes people uncomfortable. Lazy as hell. Doesn't seem to play office politics and isn't connected to anyone higher up. And yet, he never crosses the line. Never too lazy. Never too slimy to the point of becoming harassing. Never gets caught stealing Madge's lasagna from the break room. Nobody likes him but no one can find a reason to fire him.
posted by honestcoyote at 12:32 PM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by honestcoyote at 12:32 PM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, Chad definitely knows where the lines are and will go right up to them, but not cross them. Make fun of the boss's dead son, but not when the boss is present. Eat food in the conference room.
You could hear it when Richard Horne demanded he get the letter. That was crossing a line, and a line Chad really did not want to cross. He's gone a long time being really shitty and not getting fired, and he's not interested in risking anything for this punk kid.
posted by maxsparber at 12:55 PM on July 20, 2017
You could hear it when Richard Horne demanded he get the letter. That was crossing a line, and a line Chad really did not want to cross. He's gone a long time being really shitty and not getting fired, and he's not interested in risking anything for this punk kid.
posted by maxsparber at 12:55 PM on July 20, 2017
I suppose it was inevitable that a redditor would come up with a multiple timelines theory.
> TL;DR: Time in the Purple Room is around 10 days ahead of time on Earth. Cooper left the Purple Room through outlet #3 on Saturday, October 1st at 2:53PM. He arrived back on Earth, assuming the life of Dougie Jones, sometime around September 21st, at 2:53PM. His consciousness exists on Earth at 2:53PM on October 1st, which is why Cooper is a vegetable right now. He simply has to wait 10 days until his body can become one with his mind again. Bill Hasting's signature in Part 9 reads September 29th, meaning that Cooper's "awakening" is imminent, only 2 days away. This is, of course, also the exact same time Frank, Hawk, and Bobby will be going to Jack Rabbit's Palace too.
posted by christopherious at 1:31 PM on July 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
> TL;DR: Time in the Purple Room is around 10 days ahead of time on Earth. Cooper left the Purple Room through outlet #3 on Saturday, October 1st at 2:53PM. He arrived back on Earth, assuming the life of Dougie Jones, sometime around September 21st, at 2:53PM. His consciousness exists on Earth at 2:53PM on October 1st, which is why Cooper is a vegetable right now. He simply has to wait 10 days until his body can become one with his mind again. Bill Hasting's signature in Part 9 reads September 29th, meaning that Cooper's "awakening" is imminent, only 2 days away. This is, of course, also the exact same time Frank, Hawk, and Bobby will be going to Jack Rabbit's Palace too.
posted by christopherious at 1:31 PM on July 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
I keep reading "Jack Rabbit's Palace" as "Jack Rabbit Palance", and I'm pretty into the idea of a cartoon animal version of Jack Palance showing up and being crucial to everything.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:00 PM on July 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 2:00 PM on July 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
I keep thinking it's where Vincent Vega and Mia Wallace won the twist contest.
posted by maxsparber at 2:21 PM on July 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 2:21 PM on July 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
I keep reading "Jack Rabbit's Palace" as "Jack Rabbit Palance", and I'm pretty into the idea of a cartoon animal version of Jack Palance showing up and being crucial to everything.
This very nearly caused a literal spit take.
posted by kenko at 3:48 PM on July 20, 2017
This very nearly caused a literal spit take.
posted by kenko at 3:48 PM on July 20, 2017
I think it's a lot more likely that time does not pass as we know it in the purple room (much like the waiting room, etc), which is why not-Ronette keeps Cooper from leaving until the numbers change.
posted by destructive cactus at 12:00 AM on July 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by destructive cactus at 12:00 AM on July 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I suppose it was inevitable that a redditor would come up with a multiple timelines theory.
It's probably for the best that I haven't gone anywhere near reddit since this show came on. For the past several weeks, I've been shaking my head at crazy fools on Facebook who are insisting that the show is presenting key plotlines (like the Bill Hastings and Dougie stories) in jumbled/reverse order, like it's Memento or something. Which makes me think that they're just trying too damn hard to see the strangeness and beauty in a David Lynch film.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:46 AM on July 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's probably for the best that I haven't gone anywhere near reddit since this show came on. For the past several weeks, I've been shaking my head at crazy fools on Facebook who are insisting that the show is presenting key plotlines (like the Bill Hastings and Dougie stories) in jumbled/reverse order, like it's Memento or something. Which makes me think that they're just trying too damn hard to see the strangeness and beauty in a David Lynch film.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:46 AM on July 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
multiple timelines theory
I hope not. I was annoyed when the strained multiple timelines theory for a certain other prestige cable drama turned out to be true last year. I don't watch these things hoping that the show will pull the rug out from under me in the last episode.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:36 AM on July 21, 2017
I hope not. I was annoyed when the strained multiple timelines theory for a certain other prestige cable drama turned out to be true last year. I don't watch these things hoping that the show will pull the rug out from under me in the last episode.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:36 AM on July 21, 2017
The problem with these kinds of fan theories is that they're attempting to solve a different kind of puzzle than the one actually being posed by the shows they're about. Twin Peaks is at its heart concerned with primal questions of good and evil, told through a dense but ultimately comprehensible system of symbols and signs. Meanwhile, these fan theorists are trying to solve it like it's the daily Junior Jumble.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:31 AM on July 21, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:31 AM on July 21, 2017 [14 favorites]
Interview with Amy Shiels (Candie)
We also get an extended scene via the casino’s security camera while Candie’s on the gambling floor. What were you actually mouthing while doing those wonderfully animated arm movements? Was it actually about the air-conditioning?posted by christopherious at 10:43 AM on July 21, 2017 [9 favorites]
It was! That was so much fun shooting that scene. Tom Sizemore was trying not to laugh the entire time. I improvised for five minutes about air-conditioning units in Candie’s world. It was so fun. [Laughs.]
Twin Peaks is at its heart concerned with primal questions of good and evil, told through a dense but ultimately comprehensible system of symbols and signs. Meanwhile, these fan theorists are trying to solve it like it's the daily Junior Jumble.
that's so well put. and even so, I get a minor kick out of listening to the people trying to use their slide rules to calculate how many kilos of lembas bread a hobbit would have to pack if he walked from Vegas to Twin Peaks and why the eagles couldn't just carry him there and why didn't Gandalf restore Cooper's memory when he had the chance? but no kick at all out of those who seem to look at all the rape and murder and semi-human anguish as so much ironic iconic set dressing and part of what makes Lynch "cool," like owls and retro dresses and diner coffee. no, good and evil is REAL STUFF.
I might have been one of the second kinds of people myself once, but it was a long time ago. I distinctly remember as a teen not understanding the animating intelligence behind Blue Velvet at all, and being bothered by appreciating without understanding. but I must have figured it out when I wasn't paying attention. something has to happen in a person's life to let them recognize that a thing isn't a joke just because it's funny. age will do it if nothing else does.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:56 PM on July 21, 2017 [19 favorites]
that's so well put. and even so, I get a minor kick out of listening to the people trying to use their slide rules to calculate how many kilos of lembas bread a hobbit would have to pack if he walked from Vegas to Twin Peaks and why the eagles couldn't just carry him there and why didn't Gandalf restore Cooper's memory when he had the chance? but no kick at all out of those who seem to look at all the rape and murder and semi-human anguish as so much ironic iconic set dressing and part of what makes Lynch "cool," like owls and retro dresses and diner coffee. no, good and evil is REAL STUFF.
I might have been one of the second kinds of people myself once, but it was a long time ago. I distinctly remember as a teen not understanding the animating intelligence behind Blue Velvet at all, and being bothered by appreciating without understanding. but I must have figured it out when I wasn't paying attention. something has to happen in a person's life to let them recognize that a thing isn't a joke just because it's funny. age will do it if nothing else does.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:56 PM on July 21, 2017 [19 favorites]
something has to happen in a person's life to let them recognize that a thing isn't a joke just because it's funny
Wow. Really well put.
posted by straight at 4:41 PM on July 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Wow. Really well put.
posted by straight at 4:41 PM on July 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
The shots of Candie and her coworkers' sculptural posing against the wall are really wonderful.
posted by kenko at 11:05 AM on July 22, 2017
posted by kenko at 11:05 AM on July 22, 2017
I hope things end well for Janey-e. She's got some tough reveals coming to her.
posted by Rinku at 12:14 PM on July 22, 2017
posted by Rinku at 12:14 PM on July 22, 2017
I really wonder what the deal is with Janey-E's relationship to Dougie's past, given that Dougie has no past. I mean, we can suppose, I suppose, that he was created twelve (or whatever) years ago with a full complement of false memories, but there are no people in existence to support those memories—no meeting the folks, not many friends at the wedding.
posted by kenko at 5:58 PM on July 22, 2017
posted by kenko at 5:58 PM on July 22, 2017
Dougie transported to the Red Room and Cooper exited the Black Lodge and took his place in this world. He did not take over Dougie's body. They switched places.
posted by christopherious at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2017
posted by christopherious at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2017
is nobody else concerned that hollow Cooper's path to re-inflation will be absorbing his wicked doppelganger, or the reverse? if the good one has the sweetness and the soul, and the bad one has the memories and the intelligence and the drive, and if Bob is really gone from the bad one's body -- they're each half a person now. this doesn't seem like a thing Lynch would do but is it so certain that Twin Peaks doppelgangers are a different kind of thing that it's impossible? the main point against it is it's too obvious but the Audrey/Richard parentage theory is too obvious too, and that doesn't stop anybody from suspecting it even if they don't like it.
I think (?) bad Cooper has access to certain memories or knowledge because that was copied along with the rest of him, not because he is literally the wicked half of Cooper. but i don't see that that would matter. like if this were joss whedon instead of david lynch I'd expect bad cooper would do something grisly to good cooper, perhaps culminating in actually devouring him and then at the moment of his greatest triumph, with a gasp of horror he would feel his own soul swelling back to life and the irresistable urge to get a haircut and change out his leather jacket for a nice blazer. but I guess I shouldn't worry about that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:43 PM on July 22, 2017
I think (?) bad Cooper has access to certain memories or knowledge because that was copied along with the rest of him, not because he is literally the wicked half of Cooper. but i don't see that that would matter. like if this were joss whedon instead of david lynch I'd expect bad cooper would do something grisly to good cooper, perhaps culminating in actually devouring him and then at the moment of his greatest triumph, with a gasp of horror he would feel his own soul swelling back to life and the irresistable urge to get a haircut and change out his leather jacket for a nice blazer. but I guess I shouldn't worry about that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:43 PM on July 22, 2017
I'd totally watch a Joss Whedon TwinPeaks-esque television series.
I think I would enjoy a body-switch situation where David Lynch woke up in Joss Whedon's body and, when directing, was compelled to maintain the charade by adopting the old-style Whedonesque attitude towards teenage girl power, so that nobody suspected it was him. though he would revert to type in all other ways. it would be a mess but I would enjoy it.
I do get a super-strong "Anne" vibe from Norma and Shelly at the diner.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:52 PM on July 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think I would enjoy a body-switch situation where David Lynch woke up in Joss Whedon's body and, when directing, was compelled to maintain the charade by adopting the old-style Whedonesque attitude towards teenage girl power, so that nobody suspected it was him. though he would revert to type in all other ways. it would be a mess but I would enjoy it.
I do get a super-strong "Anne" vibe from Norma and Shelly at the diner.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:52 PM on July 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
Okay, but where does this "Dougie only came into existence 12 years ago full of false memories" thing come in?
Somehow, Evil Coop "manufactured" Dougie. Dougie wasn't a real human being. And somehow he got together with Janey-E and started a new life.
posted by christopherious at 8:05 PM on July 22, 2017
Somehow, Evil Coop "manufactured" Dougie. Dougie wasn't a real human being. And somehow he got together with Janey-E and started a new life.
posted by christopherious at 8:05 PM on July 22, 2017
Okay, but where does this "Dougie only came into existence 12 years ago full of false memories" thing come in?
When Janey-E and DougieCoop are at the police station after the Ike the Spike attack, the police officers realize that, on paper, Douglas Jones has only existed for the past twelve years. They then assume the logical conclusion, that he's under Witness Protection, instead of the truth that he was created by Boop/Mr.C as a means of not returning to the Black Lodge.
Was it here that someone theorized that Laura Palmer was a doppelganger during the whole time we "knew" her? What if Bob can only occupy doppelgangers? Whoever Bob inhabited before Leland could have lured Leland into the Black Lodge, and the Bob inhabited Leland doppelganger left. Bob wanted to BE Laura, remember. If doppelLaura is dead, and real Laura is still in the Lodge, that would explain how she's both alive and dead.
It's not a terribly ridiculous theory for a show that had a character reincarnated into a drawer pull.
posted by Ruki at 8:13 PM on July 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
When Janey-E and DougieCoop are at the police station after the Ike the Spike attack, the police officers realize that, on paper, Douglas Jones has only existed for the past twelve years. They then assume the logical conclusion, that he's under Witness Protection, instead of the truth that he was created by Boop/Mr.C as a means of not returning to the Black Lodge.
Was it here that someone theorized that Laura Palmer was a doppelganger during the whole time we "knew" her? What if Bob can only occupy doppelgangers? Whoever Bob inhabited before Leland could have lured Leland into the Black Lodge, and the Bob inhabited Leland doppelganger left. Bob wanted to BE Laura, remember. If doppelLaura is dead, and real Laura is still in the Lodge, that would explain how she's both alive and dead.
It's not a terribly ridiculous theory for a show that had a character reincarnated into a drawer pull.
posted by Ruki at 8:13 PM on July 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Since we're trotting out theories, there's another one on the subreddit that Senorita Dido's golden roof horn, which produced the so-called "Laura orb", was a kind of fallopian tube that produced a Laura Palmer egg prior to fertilization, and that the weird stuff ejected by the Mother in 1945 included some sort of BOB spermatozoa.
posted by christopherious at 8:24 PM on July 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by christopherious at 8:24 PM on July 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mr. C's fingerprints are Agent Cooper's but backward, which to me implies he isn't the evil half of Agent Cooper, but the reverse of Agent Cooper. So if Coop was, say, 95% good and 5% evil, Mr. C is 95% evil and 5% good. But neither of them is missing anything now. Well, Mr. C is missing Bob. But I'm not sure Bob was more than just a cheerleader for Mr. C all this time, giving him thumbs-up in the mirror and maybe the occasional pep talk, like some demonic Jiminy Cricket.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:39 AM on July 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:39 AM on July 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sigh, I think Lynch/Frost don't care about Josie in the furniture, only we do.
Can you imagine someone winding up with that at some sort of garage sale?
posted by armacy at 7:39 AM on July 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Can you imagine someone winding up with that at some sort of garage sale?
posted by armacy at 7:39 AM on July 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Or on eBay...
(from /r/twinpeaks which is 99% of what I visit Reddit for these days)
posted by jason_steakums at 8:42 AM on July 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
(from /r/twinpeaks which is 99% of what I visit Reddit for these days)
posted by jason_steakums at 8:42 AM on July 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
But I'm not sure Bob was more than just a cheerleader for Mr. C all this time, giving him thumbs-up in the mirror and maybe the occasional pep talk, like some demonic Jiminy Cricket.
This is consistent with the One Armed Man having described Bob as a "familiar".
posted by flabdablet at 10:16 AM on July 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is consistent with the One Armed Man having described Bob as a "familiar".
posted by flabdablet at 10:16 AM on July 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Last night when I couldn't get to sleep, I developed the pretty unlikely idea that the dead, 40-something Major Briggs is both the evil doppelganger of our Major Briggs and the original-to-earth version. My sleepy idea is based mostly on how Major Briggs slapped Bobby at the dinner table early on in the original show, which seems now like a very un-Major Briggs thing to do. Of course, I realize that's probably just because the character evolved as the show went on; Agent Cooper is much more of a dick in the early episodes, too. But if Major Briggs was originally a bad guy who was replaced by a good-guy Major Briggs in the original series (like, I dunno, when he vanished into the White Lodge) and our Major Briggs killed his evil self and, say, hid the body in a freezer somewhere, that would explain how the body hadn't aged. It would also explain how its fingerprints matched those that the military had on file (i.e., weren't backward). I'm not seriously suggesting this -- it's a lot of plot to introduce this late into the series that ultimately wouldn't be that important, probably -- but I'm not totally...not suggesting it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:13 PM on July 23, 2017
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:13 PM on July 23, 2017
But I'm not sure Bob was more than just a cheerleader for Mr. C all this time
But surely Mr. C's electrical shenanigans with the prison phone system must've had something to do with Bob's sympathy for the ionic?
posted by kenko at 1:07 PM on July 23, 2017
But surely Mr. C's electrical shenanigans with the prison phone system must've had something to do with Bob's sympathy for the ionic?
posted by kenko at 1:07 PM on July 23, 2017
I'm not seriously suggesting this -- it's a lot of plot […] -- but I'm not totally...not suggesting it.
"Nice plotline you got here … shame if something happened to it."
posted by kenko at 1:08 PM on July 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Nice plotline you got here … shame if something happened to it."
posted by kenko at 1:08 PM on July 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
which seems now like a very un-Major Briggs thing to do
I still haven't gotten over the revelation that he really was a real Major, not just a death-of-a-salesman-y deluded failure who put on the fake army suit and all the fake medals and told the family he was off to the base every morning while he went out to the car, drove to a secluded parking spot, and drank and cried until time to go home.
in fact in the famous scene at the diner I was 100 percent positive that seeing his dad hanging out there when he wasn't supposed to be was going to be when Bobby figured it all out and the major's world crumbled because the whole thing was made up for his son's benefit more than his wife's.
but nope! that was one of the bigger Twin Peaks surprises for me.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:55 PM on July 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
I still haven't gotten over the revelation that he really was a real Major, not just a death-of-a-salesman-y deluded failure who put on the fake army suit and all the fake medals and told the family he was off to the base every morning while he went out to the car, drove to a secluded parking spot, and drank and cried until time to go home.
in fact in the famous scene at the diner I was 100 percent positive that seeing his dad hanging out there when he wasn't supposed to be was going to be when Bobby figured it all out and the major's world crumbled because the whole thing was made up for his son's benefit more than his wife's.
but nope! that was one of the bigger Twin Peaks surprises for me.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:55 PM on July 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm 27 minutes in the new episode. My kid is three years away from college. I sincerely hope that TP:TR is being taught in a class by then. No spoilers, of course, but this is a masterpiece of weaving a narrative.
posted by Ruki at 6:46 PM on July 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Ruki at 6:46 PM on July 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
the pretty unlikely idea that the dead, 40-something Major Briggs is both the evil doppelganger of our Major Briggs and the original-to-earth version
I think there's a lot of possible Major Briggs plots that are ruled out simply by not having Don Davis around anymore. There's only so much you can do with other characters recounting scenes with him.
We surely wouldn't be getting this "But this body is that of a forty-year-old man!" stuff if Lynch had been able to film a few scenes with an older Davis.
posted by straight at 9:56 AM on July 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think there's a lot of possible Major Briggs plots that are ruled out simply by not having Don Davis around anymore. There's only so much you can do with other characters recounting scenes with him.
We surely wouldn't be getting this "But this body is that of a forty-year-old man!" stuff if Lynch had been able to film a few scenes with an older Davis.
posted by straight at 9:56 AM on July 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Isn't it a bit irregular for a patient's spouse to be party to their other half's medical examination? And, while we saw that Cooper-as-Dougie was in excellent physical shape, wasn't it his mental condition that prompted Janey-E to have him checked up: and was that then not even discussed?
For how long are Candie and her colleagues (Sandie and Mandie!) expected to stand around waiting to be sent off on errands while wearing those heels?
I thoroughly enjoyed the song at the end: autotune often irritates me but I was oblivious to it here.
posted by misteraitch at 2:08 AM on October 28, 2019
For how long are Candie and her colleagues (Sandie and Mandie!) expected to stand around waiting to be sent off on errands while wearing those heels?
I thoroughly enjoyed the song at the end: autotune often irritates me but I was oblivious to it here.
posted by misteraitch at 2:08 AM on October 28, 2019
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posted by jason_steakums at 7:05 PM on July 16, 2017 [6 favorites]