Game of Thrones: The Dragon and the Wolf   Show Only 
August 27, 2017 7:27 PM - Season 7, Episode 7 - Subscribe

Season 7 finale. Some questions are answered and new ones are raised.

♪... and the wall came tumbling down... ♪
posted by gatorae (440 comments total) 13 users marked this as a favorite
 
AHHHHHHHHH

SO HAM-FISTED AND CHEESY AND GREAT
posted by curious nu at 7:28 PM on August 27 [20 favorites]


Is this the show only or books included thread?
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:29 PM on August 27


I was really shocked by Littlefinger's execution and maybe a little annoyed. He's supposed to squirrel away and end up keeping evil alive. I feel like the character was totally wasted for the past 3 seasons if this was going to be his end. Maybe the Night King will bring him back and he'll still be a squirrely motherfucker as a dead-dude and end up ruling Westeros after all.
posted by dis_integration at 7:29 PM on August 27 [14 favorites]


If this was CleglaneBowl, color me disappointed.
posted by explosion at 7:30 PM on August 27 [14 favorites]


Missed the opportunity to tease "This summer, the wall is gonna fall."
posted by drezdn at 7:30 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


Also, the most important question: DID TORMUND DIE???

I know, how could he not, but if he made it through episode 6, I refuse to believe he didn't somehow magically get away from the ice wall avalanche unscathed.

I REALLY NEED TO KNOW IF MY GINGER MUFFIN IS OKAY
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:30 PM on August 27 [40 favorites]


Kinda surprised it took that long for the coin to drop for Tyrion once he noticed his sister wasn't drinking wine.

Anyway. Yay reunions, yay Bran finally carrying some narrative weight, yay the Stark sisters, bring on s8.

And don't touch a hair on the head of our ginger princess, please, ice dragon.
posted by rewil at 7:30 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


Aaaaah Stark Sisters plotline redeemed!!

I like how Bran goes from being an unhelpful jerk to being the Exposition Fairy...
posted by TwoStride at 7:31 PM on August 27 [22 favorites]


This has been a very uneven season. But there was a lot to like in this episode!
posted by kimdog at 7:31 PM on August 27 [6 favorites]


IN YOUR FACE, LITTLEFINGER. god, that was satisfying. I hate that guy so much.
posted by something something at 7:31 PM on August 27 [17 favorites]


crap, mods make this Show-only please? I knew I was forgetting something
posted by gatorae at 7:31 PM on August 27


Also I'm betting that Arya will harvest Littlefinger's face and will use it to somehow infiltrate King's Landing next season.
posted by TwoStride at 7:32 PM on August 27 [46 favorites]


[I MADE IT SHOW ONLY BUT I HAVE BEEN SPOILERED IN THE PROCESS!]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:32 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]


Also, glad we finally got rid of Littlefinger even if I'm unhappy about how it all came about just because that was such a tiresome story line.

Although I'm also kind of annoyed that we wasted all that time on the whole Sansa vs Arya thing when clearly it wasn't going anywhere.

And I was really hoping Jaime would take out Cersei before running away. But at least he finally got back some of the character development he had in season 3.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:33 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


I AM SO DELIGHTED

THAT SANSA PASSED

HER WIS CHECK
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:34 PM on August 27 [54 favorites]


ALSO FUCK SAM FOR TAKING CREDIT FOR GILLY'S WORK
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:34 PM on August 27 [138 favorites]


I like how Bran goes from being an unhelpful jerk to being the Exposition Fairy...

Also, it really annoyed me that he didn't breathe a word of Jon's parentage to Sansa or Arya but suddenly Sam shows up and he's all talkative.

Of course, I get narratively they had to have it happen this way because of that thing that Sam read in the book. But still, there must have been a more elegant way to do that.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:34 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


Kinda surprised it took that long for the coin to drop for Tyrion once he noticed his sister wasn't drinking wine.

And deprive us of the anviliciousness of Cersei's hand on her stomach??

This finale--like this season--was deeply uneven. Like, so much talking in this, and too much time to plotlines that I don't give a shit about (Sea Ramsey and the Greyjoys, any and all discussion of cocks), but then they sucked me back in with Bronn, and The Hound and Brienne sharing a moment, and Brienne calling upon Jaime's conscience, and the Littlefinger trial, and a pretty cool ice dragon at the end.

NGL, I'm willing for Tormund to die if it does indeed serve Brienne and Jaime getting together.
posted by TwoStride at 7:34 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


[I MADE IT SHOW ONLY BUT I HAVE BEEN SPOILERED IN THE PROCESS!]

Your dedication is appreciated, and flagged as fantastic!
posted by explosion at 7:35 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


Sansa + Arya + Littlefinger

=

Oh Snap
posted by CrazyLemonade at 7:35 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


Oh, and I can't believe we made it through this entire season without a Jon/Arya reunion and without Jon finding out the truth about who his parents are. Honestly, not getting to see that is going to bother me even more than the ice dragon destroying the wall.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:35 PM on August 27


Saaaaamsaaaaaa


So is arya dtesling LF's face? I mean everyone saw him executed so I spassume nit but that's what I would've done.

I still don't believe for a second Cersei is pregnant but none of this invalidates my insane theory she's going to offer her newborn to the night king,

The ending was entirely expected and worth it

"You are still strange and annoying"
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on August 27 [14 favorites]


Honestly this episode works so well for me partly just in context for all the conversation that's been happening in the threads here. It's like.. every possible complaint, question, discussion, just wrapped up. No subtlety in it! On to new things!

Also I liked how Bran could google Jon's birth once Sam (taking credit for Gilly) gave him the search terms.
posted by curious nu at 7:36 PM on August 27 [53 favorites]


And did anyone else find it a little weird how they juxtaposed Dany and Jon having sex with the whole flashback to Rhaegar and Lyanna getting married?

Like, did they feel like they had to do that because otherwise we would miss the incest subtext?
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:37 PM on August 27 [8 favorites]


So yeah, this season, uneven, excellent battles, extremly expensive, high fantasy proper, sticks the landing .
posted by The Whelk at 7:37 PM on August 27 [8 favorites]


I'm happy that they included a proper Bronn/Tyrion conversation that did justice to their relationship.

The Trial of Littlefinger was pretty great, although I was 100% certain Arya/Sansa were working together after the Sansa/Littlefinger conversation at the beginning of this episode. Now I'm just confused about last week, unless Arya/Sansa were just performing and knew that Littlefinger was hiding under the bed eavesdropping, or something. Eh whatever I'm just glad that whole 'tee-hee fooled you, viewers!' crap is over.
posted by gatorae at 7:38 PM on August 27 [12 favorites]


btdubs zombie dragon is fucking baller but why do they have to ride it? Can't they control their zombies with their wacky minds.

Also: HOW DOES ICE FLAME MELT ICE?
posted by dis_integration at 7:39 PM on August 27 [13 favorites]


Alright show, you may continue
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 7:39 PM on August 27 [6 favorites]


Also I liked how Bran could google Jon's birth once Sam (taking credit for Gilly) gave him the search terms.

Yes, it would have been so much better if Sam and Gilly had both been in there with Bran (he did meet both of them at the wall, after all), and then when Bran mentioned Jon being a Sand, Gilly could have been like, "Actually..."

But of course, why include a woman when you don't have to? Poor Gilly.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:39 PM on August 27 [31 favorites]


Oh yeah that made sure everyone was very very aware of it AS THE SEX SCENE HAPPENED and everyone was 100% aware Jon has a firm respectable claim to the iron throne.

Also I can't imagine this ending any other way but Jamie and Cersi killing each other and bleeding out together
posted by The Whelk at 7:39 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


Sansa better rule this fucking pile of shit realm by the end.
posted by lydhre at 7:40 PM on August 27 [20 favorites]


Why was Tyrion creeping in the hallway during sexytime?
posted by gatorae at 7:41 PM on August 27 [29 favorites]


Also: HOW DOES ICE FLAME MELT ICE?

HOW DOES HE FLY WITH ALL THOSE HOLES IN HIS WINGS?

(Also, even if you had the mind magic, wouldn't you choose to ride the dragon anyway, too?)
posted by TwoStride at 7:41 PM on August 27 [13 favorites]


Also: Tyrion's stare at the door? Was he jealous?
posted by curious nu at 7:41 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


Someone is dying on Cersei's Westeros floor.
posted by drezdn at 7:41 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


ALSO FUCK SAM FOR TAKING CREDIT FOR GILLY'S WORK

He didn't. He did transcribe that book. Gilly was reading his transcriptions.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:41 PM on August 27 [11 favorites]


Also, relished the Hound/Brienne awkward "so you're ..still alive" onversation a d Brienne being the MOST Paladin.

Also more of the one true boy in the world, Pod, being his usual charming, jovial self.
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]


Also I can't imagine this ending any other way but Jamie and Cersi killing each other and bleeding out together

I was crossing my fingers for that to happen this episode, but I know Jaime never would hurt her while she's pregnant.

Of course, she can't actually have this baby, right? I mean, why include Maggie the Frog's prophecy if you're going to then completely retcon it. Of course they already messed up the three children thing when they added in the part about Robert's one true born child that died as a little baby, but still.

On the brightside, even though Cersei is still alive, at least I still have the possibility for more Jaime/Brienne and Tyrion/Jaime interactions next season.

But what about poor Bronn?
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:42 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


Jon and Dany have the chemistry of two turnips, still, and the sex scene was super super awkward even beyond the INCEST!!! horn that was blaring. Criiiiinge.
posted by lydhre at 7:43 PM on August 27 [16 favorites]


That episode was really good and didn't rely on giant set piece battles like many of the best episodes (the wall smashing was more of an epilogue, really.)

Last episode was so hamfisted compared to this episode that all I can figure is that they simply couldn't figure out how to get where things needed to be in the time and budget they had, and just said FUCK IT WE'LL DO IT LIVE bill o'reilly style, and hoped for the best. That's not precisely an understandable decision but if they got all that bullshit out of the way in episode 6 I'm prepared to move past it based on the character bits in that episode and pretty much all of this one.

...

Are we just going to pretend that wasn't aunt-nephew boning? No?
posted by Justinian at 7:44 PM on August 27


Even if it ended up being a cover for going to Essos, I loved the totally-believable "They can't swim? Fuck this, I'm going back to my island" from Euron.
posted by gatorae at 7:45 PM on August 27 [41 favorites]


Loved the irony of how Theon has always been a loser but only manages to finally do something right because he has no balls anymore *.

*or penis. Or both?
posted by CrazyLemonade at 7:45 PM on August 27 [28 favorites]


Danny was raised as a Targaryen and so has at least understood the idea of incest sex being a thing her family does her whole life. You'd think Jon would be a little repulsed about banging his aunt having grown up with incest being an absolute taboo.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:45 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


I mean I get it they needed an ice dragon to bring the wall down but could they have done it in a way which didn't make our heroes look like complete idiots?

Totally called that Sansa/Arya plot.
posted by Automocar at 7:46 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


Are we just going to pretend that wasn't aunt-nephew boning? No?

"incest is maybe not so bad" is one of the themes of the show, so...
posted by dis_integration at 7:46 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


Also: Tyrion's stare at the door? Was he jealous?

Yeah, that was weird. Or maybe Tree Bran warged into Tyrion so that he could extra creepily listen in on his brother/cousin Jon having incest sex.

I look forward to that conversation. "You looked so beautiful while you had passionate boat sex with your the dragon queen. Oh, yeah, btw, she's your aunt and my father is your uncle and you're heir to the Iron Throne. Also, the ice dragon destroyed the wall so we all have about a week to live. Nice catching up!"
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:46 PM on August 27 [10 favorites]


Someone is dying on Cersei's Westeros floor.

Cersei, of course.
posted by devinemissk at 7:46 PM on August 27 [7 favorites]


This was the first time in a while I haven't hated a Greyjoy plotine. I'm all in for Theon not sucking as much!
posted by Justinian at 7:46 PM on August 27 [6 favorites]


Even if it ended up being a cover for going to Essos, I loved the totally-believable "They can't swim? Fuck this, I'm going back to my island" from Euron.

Yeah, I'm kind of disappointed that this was all part of the plan. That would have been a great exit for Sea Ramsay and also totally believable.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:48 PM on August 27 [18 favorites]


Cersei is like an evil-aligned bioware character who always disapproves of your actions because they have no ability to consider rewards beyond the absolute shortest term (I'm looking at you: Morrigan).
posted by Pyry at 7:49 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


So did the Others have a plan in case the incredibly unlikely series of events that led to Danny bringing them a dragon didn't happen? Did they just bank on a dragon finding its way north of the Wall one day?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:49 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]


Overall, I did enjoy this episode, but I'm not sure how I feel about it as a season finale. This season felt both very rushed but also in retrospect not much really happens, and now we have to wait until 2019 to see all the good stuff.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:51 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


I'm just going to point out once more, with feeling, that some bows with dragon glass arrows would have been pretty helpful when Tormund etc. were up in the tower on Eastwatch. Maybe not to stop the dragon but they know now that if you kill a whitewalker you kill all their wights, so they could have at least made a dent in their army... ugh, why do I bother.
posted by gatorae at 7:51 PM on August 27 [28 favorites]


I've got to wait for the D&D recap to find out if we treat the Zombie Dragon as an Adult Blue Dragon with a lightning breath attack or an Adult White Dragon with a cone-of-coldesque Ice attack.
posted by Justinian at 7:51 PM on August 27 [6 favorites]


So it looks like Dany is going to end up pregnant too and the whole thing is going to end up with a battle for which incest baby will inherit the throne. Not what I was hoping for in the first few books/seasons when it looked like the incest all over the place was actually a bad thing which might lead to comeuppance.
posted by Dojie at 7:52 PM on August 27 [7 favorites]


and now we have to wait until 2019 to see all the good stuff.

What?! No. No?! That... can't be? Oh god.
posted by Justinian at 7:52 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]


Hey, now, Morrigan is not evil, and you can get her approval without playing an evil character.
posted by rewil at 7:52 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


Also, I know "LOL it's magic duh", but when the Others raise human dead they seem to otherwise operate as people do. That is, if they have damage to their bodies the bodies don't work as well, and if the zombie is missing a leg it can't walk, etc.

So the ice dragon clearly has giant holes in its wings and body. How is it flying?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:53 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


That wine bit was pretty stupid. Medievalish ladies would have totally been drinking during pregnancy.

Liked it otherwise, though I was spoilered for everything and Kit and Emilia don't even have chemistry during fake sex! It's amazing. Liked Arya and Sansa teaming up (I think Sansa was still figuring out what was what last ep during her exchange with Arya).

Wasn't Rhaegar's first kid named Aegon Targaryan?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:53 PM on August 27 [11 favorites]


So the ice dragon clearly has giant holes in its wings and body. How is it flying?

An animal that size flying on those wings is impossible to begin with, so what's a few extra holes.
posted by Pyry at 7:55 PM on August 27 [21 favorites]


and now we have to wait until 2019 to see all the good stuff.

That's what I heard, but I don't think it's definitive yet. There's still a chance it could come out in late 2018.

I mean, I know I have no right to complain about waiting since I literally read the books and watched the show for the first time a couple months ago, but still.

On the brightside, at least we now we'll get a final season to wrap things up within the next year or two, which is something we can't say about the books.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:57 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


And deprive us of the anviliciousness of Cersei's hand on her stomach??

Man, in retrospect, I really enjoy thinking about that as an effective bit of Cersei doing it intentionally to con Tyrion.

Like, maybe the show didn't intend it that way, but the way it's set up? And how Cersei guides the convo to family and keeps it at family, banging on the drum for Tommen and Myrcella to reinforce Tyrion's belief that Cersei will do annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnything for family? And then followed by the scene with Jaime and Cersei, when you suddenly understand why Euron stormed off like that, why Cersei gave in so easily to the idea of marching north, and the look on Jaime's face when he thinks Cersei might actually order Gregor to kill him. And then when he pushes past Gregor, and then Cersei helplessly watching him go away from her -- the visual of the world at her feet, and she's just staring at her brother walking away from him, because ugh, family and survival are really coming to a conflict point for Cersei.

10000000000000000000% LANNISTER GOLD

In my soul, it's more satisfying to believe that Sansa and Arya weren't in it together, and weren't conning Littlefinger together. It fits better, instead, to have this be the result of all of the things that Sansa has learned -- like, she fucking out-puppeted the puppetteer. She wanted to make sure as sure as sure that he was actually trying to pit her and Arya against each other, because she didn't want to risk the Knights of the Vale unless she had to. So she drew him out. She made him overplay his hand, and then, that's the decision she makes on the ramparts.

I mean, I'd love to have 60 minutes of Sansa politicking with the leader of the Knights of Vale to ensure their support before they came into the hall, and her making sure that Bran would back her up, and to make sure Arya brought the stabbin' dagger, but I'll take Sansa's incredible line about being a slow learner, but leaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarning that's my giiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirl that's the narrative about women I want to seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, and then add on how the way that Sansa and Arya work together as refutation of their dad's cool-sounding thing about how the person who passes the sentence should carry it out?

UGH I LOVE THE IDEA OF SANSA BEING SMART ENOUGH TO PICK AND CHOOSE AMONG NED'S LEGACY
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:57 PM on August 27 [41 favorites]


They have giant helium glands in their torsos. The holes were in the wings.
posted by Justinian at 7:57 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]


Of all the pretty good stuff tonight, I think my favorite moment was:

Brienne -- Brienne of Tarth, Most Upright and Noble and Loyal Person Alive By Sheer Force of Priggish Lawful-Good Will -- shouting "Fuck loyalty!"

So the ice dragon clearly has giant holes in its wings and body. How is it flying?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest "magic."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:59 PM on August 27 [49 favorites]


Yeah, like Cersei of all fucking people would quit drinking during pregnancy and never mind the fact that no alcohol during pregnancy has been a thing for all of, what, thirty years? And mostly in the US?

It's one of my biggest pet peeves, the suddenly not drinking thing used as the universal tv signal for KNOCKED UP Y'ALL.
posted by lydhre at 7:59 PM on August 27 [27 favorites]


Wasn't Rhaegar's first kid named Aegon Targaryan?

Yes, although I'm not sure if the show ever explicitly gives their names, but it is kind of weird either way.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:59 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


Yeah the extremly anti-chemistry between our royal pair is an ...issue. It's not now like don't have chemistry with other characters they just don't ..sell it.
posted by The Whelk at 7:59 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


Brienne -- Brienne of Tarth, Most Upright and Noble and Loyal Person Alive By Sheer Force of Priggish Lawful-Good Will -- shouting "Fuck loyalty!"

Yes, that was a great moment, one of my favorites of this episode, and I think that must have been the thing that really got through to Jaime, because he knows how much loyalty means to Brienne, so for her to say that means they are all really, really fucked.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:00 PM on August 27 [15 favorites]


How have we not talked about Jon's hilarible political skills on display this episode? I think everyone in the dragon pit simultaneously facepalmed, including Cersei.
posted by gatorae at 8:01 PM on August 27 [16 favorites]


Hey people who are spoiler police -- how long do I have to wait before I find a screenshot of the Night King riding Valerion, or the smashed wall, and superimpose BUT HER EMAILS on it and post it to facebook?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:01 PM on August 27 [76 favorites]


Thr drinking thing is ahistorical but for the audience, if we see her drinking privately we know she's lying.

I totally think she's lying (and if not she's going to go full on siding with the army of death, I'm calling it )
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


You know how Sansa learns? Jon just doesn't. At all.
posted by lydhre at 8:03 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


Also, what are the odds that Cersei is banging Euron, and telling Euron that it's his baby?

God, that entire scene between Cersei and Jaime was so satisfying.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:03 PM on August 27 [7 favorites]


Wasn't Rhaegar's first kid named Aegon Targaryan?

Indeed, although Rhaegar was also a prophecy-obsessed madman, so maybe he named all of his male children Aegon to get some of that Conqueror-namesake juice.
posted by Copronymus at 8:03 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


UGH I LOVE THE IDEA OF SANSA BEING SMART ENOUGH TO PICK AND CHOOSE AMONG NED'S LEGACY

ME TOO ME TOO
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:03 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


"So how long till Cersei betrays the people just just swore she'd work with?"

"Well we've got like 45 minutes left, so ..."

cue obvious betrayal.

For fuck's sake, Jaime, do something useful with your life and kill Cersei. You've got a fucking sword, and she's just told you with 100% certainty that she'd rather be queen of the ashes as the dead finally take the Red Keep than to lift a fucking finger to help stop the dead from destroying the whole of Westeros.

You always knew she was awful, but now she's awful and going to destroy the world -- what's it gonna take, dude?
posted by tocts at 8:05 PM on August 27 [7 favorites]




So did the Others have a plan in case the incredibly unlikely series of events that led to Danny bringing them a dragon didn't happen?

They have giants who can lift the gates and a huge army that weather some attrition while passing through. But why compromise when you have a zombie dragon?
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:06 PM on August 27


I hope someone cleaned up the remains of the wight before Qyburn figures out something creative to do with them. I'm still convinced that Cersei's baby is his doing, and it's a creepy frankenchild.
posted by gladly at 8:06 PM on August 27 [19 favorites]


It's interesting because Ned made a big deal to the boys that he who passes the sentence has to be the executioner, right? But the girls are skipping right past that.

This episode was all about siblings, and I liked that. Jon and Theon are the only sort-of-but-not-really Stark bros left (Bran isn't a bro, he's a three eyed raven, whatever that means). Lannisters are loyal to one another even when they want to murder one another. Theon's gotta save Yara. Sisters being murderjustice sisters. Pretty great.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:06 PM on August 27 [11 favorites]


For fuck's sake, Jaime, do something useful with your life and kill Cersei. You've got a fucking sword, and she's just told you with 100% certainty that she'd rather be queen of the ashes as the dead finally take the Red Keep than to lift a fucking finger to help stop the dead from destroying the whole of Westeros.

Mountain's in the way. It's obviously what he has to do. He is the king/queenslayer and all. But maybe after Cleganebowl finally happens.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:07 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


You know how Sansa learns? Jon just doesn't. At all.

Jaime calling Jon a dolt was one of the laugh-out-loud lines this episode for me. Everybody knows you're stupid, Jon. Even the stupid Lannister brother.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:07 PM on August 27 [12 favorites]


I was going to be so upset if Cersei had really changed her mind to support John and Dany.
posted by octothorpe at 8:08 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


Qyburn jumping up in fascinated horror-glee at a superior version of his Gregor undead-monster was excellently acted.
posted by gatorae at 8:08 PM on August 27 [60 favorites]


I hope someone cleaned up the remains of the wight before Qyburn figures out something creative to do with them.

I admit, I lol'd at what I perceived as eagerness on Qyburn's face when the wight was doing its undead thing.
posted by TwoStride at 8:09 PM on August 27 [13 favorites]


That's what I heard, but I don't think it's definitive yet. There's still a chance it could come out in late 2018.

Christ, just finish the fucking show already. Showrunners are given entirely too much leeway these days. Shows in the past cranked out 26 episodes from July-March. Like I get that GoT is a complicated production with a huge staff but they were able to produce 10 episodes to premiere in the late spring the previous 6 years.
posted by Automocar at 8:09 PM on August 27 [10 favorites]


I hope someone cleaned up the remains of the wight before Qyburn figures out something creative to do with them.

Oh right that reminds me --

What's gonna happen next season isn't that Cersei is going to side with the Night King. Instead Qyburn is going to convince her that he can either take the army of the dead under her control or take control of the white walkers themselves.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:09 PM on August 27 [16 favorites]


In their defense, Jon Snow doesn't really have chemistry with anyone but maybe Sam.

I'm just hear to go down my checklist of predictions and check off literally everything. Jon and Dany boning, Sansa and Arya teaming up to off Littlefinger, ice dragon bringing the wall down (sry Tormund, but I have Jamie/Brienne as endgame so you had to go). Lannister fratricide hasn't happened yet but definitely definitely will. With a side of Cleganebowl? Here's hoping.

As Qyburn flitted over to the zombie hand my husband was like, "Oh yeah, this is totally his jam."
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:10 PM on August 27 [9 favorites]


Wouldn't that much ice falling into water make one hell of a wave? (as in this RL example.) I guess it's just open ocean with nothing to channel the energy, but still.

Jon and Theon talking about being both a Stark and Greyjoy was totally also about Jon.

Legitimate or not, Jon should never have been Jon Sand. Everyone knew he was born in the south during the rebellion, so if naming was that strict he'd already be Jon Rivers or Jon Storm etc.
posted by Wulfhere at 8:10 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


It would have been way better if instead of Tyrion, it was Jorah standing outside the door while Jon and Dany have sex, quietly crying and singing "All by myself."
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:11 PM on August 27 [33 favorites]


Did anyone kill the zombie legs? Did Qyburn sneak off with them? Is the UnMountain about to become a centaur?
posted by Wulfhere at 8:12 PM on August 27 [15 favorites]


This show fucking sucks, and I regret that the sunk cost fallacy is going to loop me in to one more season.
posted by codacorolla at 8:12 PM on August 27 [15 favorites]


Bran isn't a bro, he's a three eyed raven, whatever that means

Let me use this opportunity to voice my long-held disappointment that the three-eyed raven was not a literal raven but just some dude.
posted by Pyry at 8:12 PM on August 27 [7 favorites]


Join the Coalition of the (mostly) Living! We've got Gravelly-Voiced Eyepatch Man (now no longer resurrectable)! We've also got Aunt Dragons and the Doltish Nephew who Loves Her, Gold Hand McBroody, TarthMaid 5000, Insufferable Goth Raven Kid, Surly Bearded Man, Surly Bearded Man, Ninja Assassin Girl, and Surly Bearded Man! For a limited time only, we have Invincible Groin Lad, with the power to be kicked in the nuts an infinite number of times and somehow cause this to let him win a fight! A significant percentage of us have NOT died, been left for/widely thought dead, or survived deadly experiences through magical intervention!!!
posted by Copronymus at 8:12 PM on August 27 [32 favorites]


this episode should have been called

THE THRONENING

WHERE

SUBTEXT BECOMES TEXT

---

THE DEAD ARE COMING


THE LIVING:ANNOUNCE YOUR THOUGHTS WHILE YOU CAN

IN EXPLANATORY MONOLOGUE

SAG RATES FOR SPOKEN LINES NO LONGER APPLY ONCE THE NIGHT KING RULETH
posted by lalochezia at 8:13 PM on August 27 [28 favorites]


Legitimate or not, Jon should never have been Jon Sand. Everyone knew he was born in the south during the rebellion, so if naming was that strict he'd already be Jon Rivers or Jon Storm etc.

Yeah c'mon bran you're supposed to be the 3 eyed raven and you can't even name bastards right.

(Did anyone else laugh when he said he sees the past and the present and then asked Sam, "Why are you here?")
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:13 PM on August 27 [27 favorites]


Ice fire whatsit?

Great, now I'm going to have to hear a year's worth of talk about of Red Lightsaber vs. Blue Lightsaber, Westeros-style.
posted by tclark at 8:14 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


So much of this season seems to be clumsily wrapping up threads from earlier in the show. Actually, the "Let's murder everyone in the Sept with wildfire!" thing from last season seemed to kick that off, and it's accelerating now. I have mixed feelings. The novels are bloody ponderous. The show has always pared down the cast of characters and spectrum of events a bit, but at this point we seem to be speeding headlong into "kill off everyone who isn't crucial to the final resolution so we don't have to worry about explaining where they went." That does make things more manageable, and I can't say I didn't enjoy seeing the Stark sisters give Littlefinger his comeuppance.

On the other hand, I agree with the folks up-thread who pointed out that Littlefinger has mainly been wasted for the last three seasons, if they knew this is where it was going to end. A lot of major characters have been kind of unnecessary to have on-screen, really. If this is just going to turn into a stereotypical high fantasy in the final act, was there really a point to the first three books' grimdark "let's subvert Extruded Fantasy Product Tropes" schtick? As high fantasy goes it's still pretty fun (albeit uneven), but it's a bit of a letdown.

Also: I have so many negative feelings about the show's "ha, fooled you!" turn with Sansa and Arya. I understand that the writers were trying to build suspense and keep the audience guessing, but it just felt so clumsy.

There were a lot of great character moments in this show -- as I was watching the procession into the Fauxloseum, it occurred to me that the "side characters have a chat to fill time as they're going somewhere" conversations from the past couple of episodes are really the most interesting thing going on the show, right now. I'm not sure if I feel like that's some genius writing, playing into tropes (every medical drama ever's hallway-exposition-walk thing), or what.

Uneven, show. Uneven.
posted by Alterscape at 8:16 PM on August 27 [12 favorites]


I appreciated Jon's mild condescention at Dany accepting her fertility diagnoses from a witch.
posted by gatorae at 8:17 PM on August 27 [58 favorites]


Did anyone else laugh when he said he sees the past and the present and then asked Sam, "Why are you here?

Yep. I said to the TV, "shouldn't you know that?"
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:17 PM on August 27 [8 favorites]


Wouldn't that much ice falling into water make one hell of a wave? (as in this RL example.) I guess it's just open ocean with nothing to channel the energy, but still.

I did think for a second "wait bear island is in the west right? Good I don't want a big wave hitting it"
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


I thought bastard naming conventions were based on where the parents were from, not where the kid was born. Ned was a Stark so Jon was a Snow regardless, no?
posted by lydhre at 8:18 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


WHERE IS GENDRY???
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:19 PM on August 27 [11 favorites]


I thought bastard naming was just where the kid is raised, not necessarily born. It's not like they have long-form birth certificates in Westeros.
posted by gatorae at 8:20 PM on August 27


The character bits were good. In my mind, I had the Hound and Brienne having a much longer conversation, but it felt right how it went down.

"Oh you're alive"
"Yep. Nice try though"
"Arya's safe"
"Oh thank god"

Pleased that Arya and Sansa turned out to be Stark sisters. They may not like either, at this point, but they are there for family.

I'm really disappointed and mad that we didn't get to see any decent conversations between, until now. Everything else was just the cheapest of narrative tricks which sucked up time for idiotic narrative tension.

But who didn't enjoy seeing Baelish die?

Seeing the night king zooming around the sky on notVisaryan was hilarious in an unintentional way. It was a like a scene from a bad B movie.

The scene with Theon was very meh and I had been interested in the storyline. But the awkwardness of asking Jon for advice was too overwhelming, (though well acted). I kept thinking "Why is this important, let's move on."

The women I was watching with were very approving of Jon's ass, noting it seem much nicer since the scenes with Ygritte. Plus he's upgraded to an actual bed, not some dank cave!

Not sure why we have to wait much longer for six episodes. Lets wrap this up and move on!

WHERE IS GENDRY???

Probably said "fuck this" and went back to rowing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:21 PM on August 27 [10 favorites]


On the other hand, I agree with the folks up-thread who pointed out that Littlefinger has mainly been wasted for the last three seasons, if they knew this is where it was going to end.

I expect that they burned a lot of time, in seasons 4 and 5 especially, waiting for GRRM to finish the next book.

Without getting into the content of the books in a show-only thread, I expect it will be the case that a vast amount of stuff in the books will have been wasted by those standards.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:23 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


I know writing a show has got to be pretty challenging, when you factor in 'keeping the network happy' and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure the fans have been thinking about how the plot might remain logically consistent harder than the writers for a few years now, Serene Empress Dork. Along the same vein, I'm also not sure what it means about "I see everything" Three-Eyed Branven being very interested in Jon's parentage, but not being curious enough to snoop in on his parents through Weirwood.net until Sam pointed it out. Like, he can see everything except the plot-inconvenient everything? If the writers are trying to set up Bran as fallible or unreliable, that's a pretty good way to hint at it, but I'm not sure the current iteration of the show has that much subtlety in it.

See you in the Books Only thread, ROU_Xenophobe. Suspect we have a bunch of stuff to agree about that we can only discuss over there!
posted by Alterscape at 8:25 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


Hey people who are spoiler police -- how long do I have to wait before I find a screenshot of the Night King riding Valerion, or the smashed wall, and superimpose BUT HER EMAILS on it and post it to facebook?


Thursday. We went eclipsing and I got spoiled on FB Tuesday morning. Then some jackass rang the doorbell for no good reason 3/4 through the episode ... I'm going to just stop answering the door.
posted by tilde at 8:25 PM on August 27


So did the Others have a plan in case the incredibly unlikely series of events that led to Danny bringing them a dragon didn't happen?
There's some speculation that the Night King has all the same abilities Bran does, so he planned for Dany to come along and prepared to kill her dragon. Hence not attacking the frozen company and all that. I'm not sure I totally buy that, but sure fine, wizard magic.
posted by xyzzy at 8:27 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]


"I said to the TV, "shouldn't you know that?""

My wife said the same thing. The only response I could think of was, "He said he can see everything that's happening, not know everything that's happening."

So sure, he can see Sam coming to Winterfell but unless Sam spoke intentions out loud (and the Bran-Eyed Raven knew to Google for that exact time and place) then he doesn't really know why he's coming.

that's all I could think to say about that.
posted by komara at 8:30 PM on August 27 [9 favorites]


Well, I found that a lot more satisfying than expected!

The first half hour was so freaking tense, almost like a horror movie in slow motion. I was watching with 5 people and I looked around once and everyone was leaning forward. Those were very well-directed scenes.

I thought it was a nice character note that Cersei couldn't have either of her brothers killed. It's her Achilles heel. Reminded me that family is the most important thing for the Lannisters, and Cersei learned everything she knows from her father, who she reveres.

The Stark Girls/Littlefinger resolution was just as corny as I thought it wood be - seriously, it was like Scooby Doo. But at that point, the alternative was one of them killing the other, and it was also satisfying, even as I was rolling my eyes.
posted by the sockening at 8:34 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


Oh yeah that made sure everyone was very very aware of it AS THE SEX SCENE HAPPENED and everyone was 100% aware Jon has a firm respectable claim to the iron throne.

I see what you did there.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 8:35 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


To "know" something, doesn't Bran have to do his time-travel observation thing so he can "see" it happening? That is how they depict it on the show, anyway. That is a shitload of history to have to sit and bingewatch, so I guess I'm not that surprised that there is a lot of things he doesn't know, although you'd think he would have googled Rhaegar Lyanna wedding at least once.
posted by gatorae at 8:35 PM on August 27 [8 favorites]


"I said to the TV, "shouldn't you know that?""

That was one the most awkward scenes ever, like I'm still trying to figure it out what it really meant, because no writer could be that ridiculous, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:35 PM on August 27


"He said he can see everything that's happening, not know everything that's happening."
That's what I'm thinking too. I do wonder what on earth he's been looking into on Weirwood.net if not additional info about Jon, though. Maybe it's a slow process and it took all that time to figure out the dirt on Littlefinger? Doubt it, though -- I'm not sure the show knows itself, but I'm curious.

I am sort of wondering if I want to give the show credit for setting up Bran as fallible. Will that play later? It's either that or just poorly thought-out writing.

There's a game I like to play when I'm trying to figure out [writers'] motivations...
posted by Alterscape at 8:37 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


"He said he can see everything that's happening, not know everything that's happening."

Well, except Gilly said that Rhaegar's marriage was annulled to Sam, and then Bran was like, "I am literally the only person who knows this."

I guess he can't see things until he looks at them. But that is...meh.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:41 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


Did anyone else laugh when he said he sees the past and the present and then asked Sam, "Why are you here?

Yep. I said to the TV, "shouldn't you know that?"


My hand-wave justification is that Bran only knows the what, but not the "why." Sam's motives, emotions, etc. aren't necessarily a thing he can see.
posted by explosion at 8:43 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


Plot twist I expect for next season: Bran can warg into people in the future and every once in a while he likes to take up residence inside a weird artsy goth kid who lives in Indiana.
posted by lunasol at 8:43 PM on August 27 [10 favorites]


Also enjoyed that the show got right down to it from the beginning. Sure, I had tons of questions about how Greyworm made it back so soon, along with Euron. But the creators have screwed with time so much, it doesn't matter. So, yay on them for teaching us not to care so much about the little details?

Really like the Hound in his new armor. It fit his newer, more grounded approach to life. Something about it like amost vaguely oriental, like's a Ronin, with no true master, but definitely something he believes in.

Note that the final scene between Sansa and Arya mirrored one between Sansa and Jon at the end of season six.

Was rooting for the Mountain to kill Jamie, just because it would have been a complete surprise. But with him leaving, that means Euron going ot be a lot more, right? Goddamnit.

Tyrion watching outside the door was creepy, and yet wasn't. I imagine a decent Hand has to do all sorts of unseemly things, from time to time. Hopefully that's all it is and not some weird jealousy thing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 PM on August 27


"Well, except Gilly said that Rhaegar's marriage was annulled to Sam, and then Bran was like, "I am literally the only person who knows this.""

Bran said he's the only person that knows that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Gilly/Sam are the only ones who know that Rhaegar was legit married to Lyanna.

Two different pieces of the same puzzle.
posted by komara at 8:46 PM on August 27 [10 favorites]


I'm annoyed that Tormund didn't die. I love him, but come on. He should have died last week until they magicked him out of being attacked by 10 wights. Standing on top of the Wall when it starts crumbling? Please.
posted by gatorae at 8:47 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


Littlefinger died as he lived: unable to pick an accent.
posted by guiseroom at 8:48 PM on August 27 [97 favorites]


I'm unspeakably relieved that Sansa and Arya worked their shit out, but I also feel cheated out of getting to see anything other than the climactic moment of that. For one thing, it's not clear how much of their escalating friction was a performance for Baelish's benefit. I understand that's how the writers chose to build the suspense of that situation, but it doesn't feel like it was worth it.

That said, Sansa and Arya's conversation after dispatching Littlefinger was the good shit.

I seem to be alone in my feeling that John's actor finally mustered up something charisma-adjacent if not exactly charisma proper in this episode. I'm still not really buying Danaerys being as into him as she is, but also, whatever.

When Cersei gave her unconditional support, I was thrilled—it seemed briefly that there could be an ending for that character that was something other than pointless self-destruction. A way for her one great virtue—her devotion to family—to provide a path to a complicated and ambiguous redemption. This is not want the grimdark-lovers want for her, of course, but the grimdark-lovers have gotten their way for seven seasons. And supposing the united armies did defeat the dead, the tension that would follow would have made for great television.

Instead, we have the most boring possible Cersei.

I was convinced that Brienne would die, somehow, but she didn't, and I'm glad about that.

Is it really not coming back until 2019?
posted by Sokka shot first at 8:51 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]




The actors pulled off the "bring-a-wight-to-Kings Landing" reveal pretty well. It says more about them than the writers. I almost believed Cercei was serious.

Speaking of the actors, I bet they got a kick out of the dragon pit scene. So many reunions from as far back as S1E1/2 and others who have never even been onscreen together.
posted by gatorae at 9:06 PM on August 27 [14 favorites]


Listen, not to be weird but Jon Snow's butt is out of control
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:08 PM on August 27 [46 favorites]


I thought it was a nice character note that Cersei couldn't have either of her brothers killed. It's her Achilles heel.

At first I thought she didn't kill Tyrion for that reason, but then I realized if she'd killed him she wouldn't be able to convincingly make nice there at the end and lose the opportunity to double-cross Dany and Jon.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 9:09 PM on August 27 [9 favorites]


Why was Tyrion creeping in the hallway during sexytime?

A friend I was watching with thinks that it's because Tyrion is worried about whether there will be an heir.

When Tyrion was talking to Cersei, he seemed genuinely sorry about Marcella and Tommen, and said that he still cared about the Lannisters -- so when Cersei "revealed" that she was pregnant, maybe he made a (secret) deal with her.

He also brought up succession with Dany in the previous episode.

So heirs and whether Dany (or Cersei) will/can produce an heir is apparently pretty important and top-of-mind to him.
posted by rue72 at 9:10 PM on August 27 [6 favorites]


There's no way the dragon pit wasn't much larger than that. Three Drogon+ sized dragons couldn't have lived in that when it still had a roof.
posted by homunculus at 9:18 PM on August 27 [6 favorites]


I'm glad Arya's and Sansa's arc ended the way it did, and I'm glad LF is finally dead (Ros is avenged at last), but overall I thought this season's part of their story was wasted. It could have been so much more interesting, but the writers are just burnt out at this point. Arya, Bran and Sansa must have had a proper sibling conversation at some point, but we're left to guess at what such an event might have been like.
posted by homunculus at 9:18 PM on August 27 [8 favorites]


So... r + l = A ?
posted by drfu at 9:21 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]


If they'd given us an interesting character moment with Sansa, Arya and Bran, they couldn't have kept us wondering who was betraying who! I do wonder -- clearly they can write interesting character moments (ref this episode's Fauxloseum reunion) so why did they decide to give us poorly-contextualized fake plotting at Winterfell?

I'm not sure if I'm being too hard on the show (clearly it was enjoyable -- here I am discussing it) or not nearly hard enough (if you look at it too long it become clear what a hot mess it is in many ways)!
posted by Alterscape at 9:26 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


"Like I get that GoT is a complicated production with a huge staff but they were able to produce 10 episodes to premiere in the late spring the previous 6 years."

They didn't have to wait for it to snow in their filming locations in previous years.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:27 PM on August 27


Wasn't Rhaegar's first kid named Aegon Targaryan?

YES. YES HE WAS.

I had a...unique take on that scene, as I am one of the tag wranglers on the fandom on Ao3. When Lyanna said his name, I said, "Shit." D&D just made things REALLY COMPLICATED for NO FUCKING REASON.

No, no, we have to take the one Targaryen dynasty name that will make things confusing, even with fucking Roman numerals. I need a godsdamned drink.

How have we not talked about Jon's hilarible political skills on display this episode? I think everyone in the dragon pit simultaneously facepalmed, including Cersei.

AND ANOTHER THING. Why couldn't he just have given Dany the question face and she nod, and he's like "cool"? Because plot drama, that's why.
posted by DebetEsse at 9:55 PM on August 27 [13 favorites]


Poor Elia Martell and her children.
posted by asteria at 9:59 PM on August 27 [7 favorites]


Poor Ghost, he's the new Rickon.
posted by Justinian at 10:02 PM on August 27 [11 favorites]


he did a sex with his auntie
posted by poffin boffin at 10:02 PM on August 27 [20 favorites]


bran watched we all know he did
posted by poffin boffin at 10:02 PM on August 27 [17 favorites]


> Hey people who are spoiler police -- how long do I have to wait before I find a screenshot of the Night King riding Valerion, or the smashed wall, and superimpose BUT HER EMAILS on it and post it to facebook?

Here you go, ROU_Xenophobe!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DISqgB5VAAEvWwV.jpg:large
posted by guiseroom at 10:02 PM on August 27 [7 favorites]


Political skills == lying? No wonder the world is in such a sorry state.
posted by yonega at 10:03 PM on August 27



Poor Ghost, he's the new Rickon.


Sniff. Ghost will have learned to swerve.
posted by TwoStride at 10:03 PM on August 27 [2 favorites]


The scene with Theon was very meh and I had been interested in the storyline. But the awkwardness of asking Jon for advice was too overwhelming, (though well acted). I kept thinking "Why is this important, let's move on."

Right there with you.

Honestly, I was irritated with Theon for not just spitting out what he wanted. Obviously he shouldn't be going up to Winterfell and obviously he needed to fulfill his duty Yara, so why not just bring that up in a practical way? Why get into a weird pseudo therapy session?

I don't generally mind that Theon is such a monumental loser on this show, because I like him despite it. But even I was ready to punch him in the face in this episode. Couldn't even root for him in that fight with Yara's first mate.

Not to mention that the fight itself made no sense. Why would Yara's men, who were ready to immediately go rape/pillage/etc under her first mate, be happy to get her back and comply with her apparent new agreement for them to never rape/pillage/etc again -- even if Theon won a boxing match that one time with the first mate? Wouldn't they be like, "eh, screw that. Why's she making shitty deals like that for?!"

And I'm sorry but I think it's beyond ridiculous that Theon has no problem with being kicked in the public bone over and over, and somehow the "superpower" of being castrated makes it possible for him to kick the ass of a man with like 60 pounds on him. I don't have a cock or balls either, but that would still hurt. If someone had skinned me alive from stem to stern or whatever Ramsey did to Theon, I assume that would hurt even worse. It certainly wouldn't give me super strength or anything. And like, something's got to be going on "down there" because he's still got to urinate and defecate, it's not like he's just got one solid, impermeable/invulnerable mass of scar tissue and bone or something anyway. I dunno, that whole thing just came off as so silly and weird.

Anyway, to go back to the Jon/Theon discussion: I also get kind of irritated whenever the show brings up the idea that Ned Stark should have instilled such a sense of duty and honor in Theon specifically, because the point of Theon even being at Winterfell as a kid was that he was a hostage, and Ned being so duty-bound actually made it more rather than less credible that he actually would kill him if Balon didn't adhere to the terms. I mean, I wouldn't expect anybody to have a Stark-like slavish devotion to duty and honor, if duty and honor were likely to get him beheaded any day.

I guess what generally frustrates me about the show is that it used to be that all the characters' actions and feelings inevitably had these very harsh and huge consequences -- like, for instance, Theon being taken as a hostage as a child ends up having huge consequences for him and all the Starks. Or Sansa has a crush on Joffrey, and that has huge consequences. Or Peter loves Cat, and things spin out for the Tullys and the Starks and for Peter from there. Or Raegor decides that he's more interested in Lyssa Stark than he is in his own wife, and that causes a huge war that ends the Targ line. Etc. But it kind of feels like nothing has consequences anymore. Even the big moments turn out to just be tricks.

Also, this is kind of tertiary, but it's frustrating to me that the characters (ie Jon) tend to act like Theon's biggest crime was that he chose the Greyjoys over the Starks [when he abandoned Robb's cause and claimed Winterfell]. Granted, he made that choice in an especially dumbshit, selfish way. But even if he'd made a wiser decision, he still would have been either abandoning and betraying Robb or abandoning and betraying the Greyjoys. Not to say he made the right choice, just that there was no way for him NOT to be a traitor, so I don't really get why he's always getting shit and acting guilty for that in particular. I don't even think that it was bad for him to choose his own house over the Starks so much as it was impractical and stupid. I thought he actually disgraced himself by murdering the two innocent kids. That's what showed that he had no sense of honor, right? But it seems like, since the kids weren't actually Bran and Rickon, nobody cares about those murders anymore? Eh.
posted by rue72 at 10:07 PM on August 27 [19 favorites]


They didn't have to wait for it to snow in their filming locations in previous years.

Which means that while they were waiting they could have been filming other scenes, like a proper reunion between Bronn and Tyrion. There's no reason this season couldn't have had 10 episodes. Hell, all the missing conversations could have added up to at least a whole episode. This season had some great moments, but overall it was very weak.
posted by homunculus at 10:07 PM on August 27 [1 favorite]


And I'm sorry but I think it's beyond ridiculous that Theon has no problem with being kicked in the public bone over and over, and somehow the "superpower" of being castrated makes it possible for him to kick the ass of a man with like 60 pounds on him. I don't have a cock or balls either, but that would still hurt.

"What is dead may never die"
posted by The Hamms Bear at 10:11 PM on August 27 [4 favorites]


"But rises again harder and stronger."
posted by The Hamms Bear at 10:12 PM on August 27 [10 favorites]


sandy cleggo's proud lil smirk when brienne told him arya was a tiny murder princess now tho
posted by poffin boffin at 10:13 PM on August 27 [46 favorites]


"Kinda surprised it took that long for the coin to drop for Tyrion once he noticed his sister wasn't drinking wine. "

THIS WAS THE STUPIDEST PART. My eyes almost rolled out of my head. Medieval women DRINK LIKE FISHIES, as did every other pregnant woman in the history of the universe until a generation ago. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

Early thoughts: "Maybe it is all cocks in the end." TRU FAX. At least the Dothraki look like they're having fun; I like a warrior who enjoys a little war. PODRICK! Not quite enough Podrick, but PODRICK! always cheers me up. So much re-meeting and bonding going on, I love it.

Note Tyrion leading the march into the dragons' den, and how far he's come in seven seasons in respect and leadership; everyone walks behind him now and he gets a big hero's walk.

I am very concerned about the sudden lack of dyes other than black available in Westeros. Did everyone dip-dye their old clothes for the winter? (Again, I get what the costumers are doing, but WHY IS THIS SHOW SUDDENLY SO GOTH?)

The CGI is lacking a bit when Dany is on the back of the walking dragon, and her head should be bobbing around as he lurches.

Cersei did look legitimately frightened -- and even small -- when faced with the wight. Great acting from Lena Headey.

Jon is a dumbass, but apparently a dumbass who's been reading Thomas Hobbes and Immanuel Kant about how lies undermine social contracts, so good on him I guess.

Cersei's office has gone very goth. (Maybe Westeros was invaded by interdimensional Hot Topic?) The Tyrion and Cersei scenes were GREAT (despite the dumb not-drinking part), it is glorious to see Peter Dinklage and Lena Headey playing off each other. There are a lot of good actors in this show but those two are probably top of my list and really elevate the characters. GRRM and D&D got hella lucky to have two such spectacular actors bringing two such complicated characters to life.

Middle: Being triple-teamed by the Starks is BAD NEWS, Littlefinger! That was great. Do we think Bran still has family loyalty or is he all robot raven now? I noted way back in season 1 how the Stark family was shaping up to be its own adventuring party, and that worked out quite well today with Bran the seer, Sansa the queen/judge, and Arya the assassin. Also, I LOVE Arya/Sansa happy scenes, these actresses adore each other and it shows.

I too LOLed at the failure of kicking Theon in the balls.

Ending: DO NOT KILL TORMUND, SHOW. DO NOT KILL HIM!

Leave it to Jon Snow to get game right as his parentage is being revealed. I'm not sure I buy him sexing Dany so precipitously ... like I know we're jumping over a lot of stuff but I could have done with a bit more foreplay, or some kind of "We're gonna die, let's have sex" or ... I mean, what is Jon trying to accomplish there? Doesn't he seem like he'd be too honorable after he bent the knee to go sex her up and seem manipulative or like he was only declaring loyalty to get in her pants or win a crown? It really felt wrong to me, I felt like he would have waited for Dany to make the first move.

"Jon and Dany have the chemistry of two turnips, still, and the sex scene was super super awkward even beyond the INCEST!!! horn that was blaring. Criiiiinge."

Yes but there was so much milky white haunch on display!

Okay, theme-y thoughts:

So, Sansa IS the Lady of Winterfell now, for real -- Robb's dead, Rickon's dead, Bran's not Bran, and Jon's a Targ; Sansa is the legit heir ... and Arya, saying, "You are the Lady of Winterfell" is really the only other person left who has a claim.

The show is sort-of strangely concerned with sibling dynamics, rather than romantic dynamics, which is mostly a nice change from run-of-the-mill fantasy but OTOH boy that's a lot of incest.

So, there's a whole hell of a lot of dead people running around other than the ice zombies -- Jon Snow, Beric Dondarrion, the Mountain, arguably Bran -- two of whom were resurrected by the fire God's priests, which I'm not sure is a whole hell of a lot better than being resurrected by the Night King. Like, if we want to get theological about it, and we don't like the dead roaming the world alive, WHY IS IT OKAY FOR JON BUT NOT THE NIGHT KING? What makes fire better than ice? The Mountain seems like stolen magic that ought to belong to the gods so that seems likely to backfire badly, but ...

This fits into my next problem, which is, why exactly does the Night King want to kill all humans? I have this problem a lot with shows, like Battlestar Galactica, where an existential threat doesn't have an obvious motive beyond hate/humans created me therefore I must destroy them/I am the big bag and therefore must kill things. I don't understand what the ice zombies want or why they want to kill all humans. I mean, what's wrong with just hanging out being a zombie? It wasn't even men who made the Night King, it was the Children of the Forest, and they're basically dead. I have important ontological and eschatological questions here!

(I'm becoming increasingly convinced Bran fucked up all the shit, past and present, and both built the wall as Bran the Builder in the past and caused it to fall as Bran the Bollocks in the present.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:14 PM on August 27 [28 favorites]


I was a little worried that Tyrion was drinking poison.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 10:15 PM on August 27 [6 favorites]


Bronn: I want you to tell me the names of the players on the Greyjoy baseball team.

Pod: Yara's on first, Theon second, Euron third –

Bronn: Me? No, I'm not playing, I'm just asking you the names of the players. Who's on the Stark team?

Pod: Um, I don't know. Arya?

Bronn: No, I don't think I'm on any team?

Pod: Yes, Aemon was on the Targaryen team, but that was ages ago.

Bronn: Ok, let's try again. Which team is Jon on?

Pod: Jon Arryn?

Bronn: Snow!

Pod: Then Jon who? Sand, or...?

Bronn: No, Sandor's on the Clegane team. What team is Jon Snow on?

Pod: Well he used to be on the Stark team, but I think he joined Daenerys.

Bronn: The nearest baseball team? Which one is that?

Pod: I don't know. Yara's?

Bronn: I told you, I'm not on a team! Who else is on the team that Jon is on now?

Pod: Um... Varys?

Bronn: Yeah I can't keep track of it either.
posted by oulipian at 10:23 PM on August 27 [72 favorites]


This fits into my next problem, which is, why exactly does the Night King want to kill all humans?

There *is* a fairly good answer to this, but I'm pretty sure that info is books-only, and not really explored in the show.
posted by tclark at 10:24 PM on August 27 [3 favorites]


I figured Cersi didn't drink because aside from drinking first and without permission, Tyrion gave her HIS USED GOBLET.

Whomever was posting that the worst part of this season is that it's gone back to "normal fantasy " is right. I know they need to do somethings to appeal to a broad audience, but GEEZE.

I think Jaimie called Cersi's bluff because she didn't MDK Tyrion.
posted by tilde at 10:25 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


I did enjoy the zombie presentation. Lena Headey was fantastic, and watching Qyburn's reaction was a hoot.

At this point I wonder if Qyburn might finally move on from Cersei's service. They've never really explored his character's motivations for being so loyal to her. Obviously there's her patronage of his forbidden experiments, and the power she's given him as Hand. He may also genuinely feel that she's the best person to rule Westeros. But he's clearly fascinated by the wights, and the best place to study the phenomenon of the White Walkers and their necromantic skills is in the north. I'd think he'd also be fascinated by the dragons, and he must be well-versed in dragon lore, and Dany doesn't have her own Maester yet, which is a must for any Westerosi ruler. It's unlikely, but I hope we at least get to see more of Qyburn exploring the various arcana next season.
posted by homunculus at 10:25 PM on August 27 [10 favorites]


And so ... now everyone knows Ned raised two hostages. Only one knew it, though.
posted by tilde at 10:26 PM on August 27 [13 favorites]


I like how another major trope this season has overturned is having heroes be vastly overpowered but achieve victory through superior wits. Instead, our heroes are given vastly greater armies and powers, and then even things up by making a near-infinite series of idiotic decisions. Like, was there any decision Tyrion or Jon made this season that wasn't catastrophically stupid? I understand the need to whittle down their advantages for the sake of a good fight, but no one forced the writers to give them so much to begin with, and even then, surely an honorable betrayal or plain bad luck would have been better ways to lose a fleet, a castle, a dragon, the wall, etc, etc.
posted by chortly at 10:35 PM on August 27 [5 favorites]


Thoughts and Observations:
• We were so close to #CleganeBowl, so close. But there's still hope.
• Watching all those mini-reunions in the first 10 minutes was a bit heart-breaking. There's no going back.
• Bronn and Tyrion making up was cute.
• Jaimie and Brianne are still in love, right?!
• Cersei and Tyrion's meeting was probably one of my favourite things ever. Such a brother/sister kind of argument. A family feud that will never be settled, that runs deep and yet there's love in there somewhere, a horrid kind of love that only family understands.
• I want a separate show where it's just Sansa as Queen of the North and Arya as Princess Murder-Gets-The-Job-Done!! Just several seasons of them solving crimes and ruling Winterfell.
• Watching Littlefinger beg was very satisfying, more than I imagined. It felt good.
• Theon saving Yara is a story-line that I guess we'll just have to make peace with. That sequence on the beach felt very uninspired and very going through the motions.
• Jaimie calling Cersei's bluff. No preggo for you. Nice try Mrs. Master Manipulator. Fool me once...
• This frees up Jaimie to date Brianne. Because I already ship them in my damn brain. I mean, along with my Queens of the North spin-off show, I also want Jaimie and Brianne travelling around the countryside with Pod, solving crimes Scooby Doo style.
• WRITER/PRODUCER: “Let's make sure that we reveal Jon's parentage while he's fucking his aunt. Just in case our viewers are really stupid. Let's just assume they're stupid as fuck. Let's make sure everyone knows that incest is happening. And let's also make Tyrion stand outside as the most awkward third-wheel ever. Good.”
• Ice dragon was cool but also felt very generic.
posted by Fizz at 10:36 PM on August 27 [7 favorites]


Feels kind of weird/sad that the Stark kids always wax poetic about their dearly departed dad but never talk about their dead mum.
posted by sprezzy at 11:17 PM on August 27 [57 favorites]


From way upthread:

So did the Others have a plan in case the incredibly unlikely series of events that led to Danny bringing them a dragon didn't happen? Did they just bank on a dragon finding its way north of the Wall one day?

My theory is, this is actually the explanation for the also super-irritating-and-made-no-sense sequence of events where the White Walker/wight army surround Team Jon and just... stand there. I think Night King dude has a little of Bran's thing (maybe specifically due to the connection between them when he grabs Bran?), and Night King dude knows that, if they trap Team Jon and wait, there's an excellent chance a dragon will show up. In fact maybe Night King dude has seen this play out already, which explains why he ssslloowwllyy walks over and picks out an ice javelin, it's already a done deal in his head. He doesn't even bother aiming for Drogon who's right there because he knows Drogon gets away, he knows it's Viserion he rides to take down the wall, so it's Viserion in flight he aims for.

In fact you could say this meshes nicely with the Bran Ruins Everything theory. Effectively, it *is* Bran's fault the wall comes down, because the Night King had no plan for taking it down (beyond attrition, presumably) until Bran gifted him with a bit of precognition. Maybe in that moment he grabs Bran, he sees all of this laid out in front of him and he's like, oh! well that definitely simplifies things, I'll keep an eye out for Team Jon and grab my ice dragon then, thanks for the heads up.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:57 PM on August 27 [13 favorites]


Also: I have so many negative feelings about the show's "ha, fooled you!" turn with Sansa and Arya. I understand that the writers were trying to build suspense and keep the audience guessing, but it just felt so clumsy.

I had this feeling about several of the great payoffs in this episode--and I did think they were great. But the writers don't know what earning a payoff is. E.g. (besides above)--
a) the scene with the release of the wight was awesome, but didn't wipe away the incredible stupidity of the plan/plot/scenes that got him there, not to mention the complete disregard for travel time. (Also, just a sidenote, I was hoping the wight hand would turn on Qyburn and scrape off his stupid face);
b) couple eps ago Jon said the only reason he wasn't killing Theon was because of what he'd done for Sansa. I enjoyed their little chat tonight (and Jon's sending him off to do the right thing by Yara), but WHY the forgiveness now?
c) Sam's knowledge of Rhaegar's annulment. We all saw him miss that fact completely when Gilly mentioned it. That's not a setup for a twisty payoff, that's just lying to the viewers and later pretending you didn't. Another side note: IF Sam had actually had that piece of information about Rhaegar, he would have known it was huge. He wouldn't have had to know about the connection with Jon to know that Robert's Rebellion was all about Rhaegar's kidnapping Lyanna, and that if there had been some secret annulment and remarriage, that might be a pretty damn fucking significant fact. He even said to Bran that the septon had married Rhaegar to Lyanna. So the whole dramatic "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie" voiceover... that was information Sam already had, he didn't need Bran's piece of the puzzle.

(All of that last part could have been resolved, yeah, as someone said above, by just having Gilly in the scene helping them put it together.)

All that to say, I really did love this episode but the writers just suck. Or not even the writers per se, necessarily, but the story planners, who just seem to assume the viewers are stupid.
posted by torticat at 11:59 PM on August 27 [12 favorites]


He didn't. He did transcribe that book. Gilly was reading his transcriptions.

That's not how the scene was played. She was telling him about all the stuff the guy had recorded, like his bowel movements. If she was reading what Sam had written, why wouldn't he have said "yes I know there were a lot of steps in the sept, I fucking transcribed that"?
posted by torticat at 12:04 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]


Maybe she was pre reading for him to prioritize transcript order. Ride, scribe, sleep, repeat.
posted by tilde at 12:13 AM on August 28


Note Tyrion leading the march into the dragons' den,

OK, now I would like some screencaps of the meeting as Tyrion and the Hound pitching "most likely unwinnable fight on the side of your enemies against undead hordes" as an enticing entrepreneurial proposition.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:22 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


It's interesting because Ned made a big deal to the boys that he who passes the sentence has to be the executioner, right? But the girls are skipping right past that.

I had to go back and check that Sansa did in fact nod at Arya to give the order. In realtime it felt like Arya was just sick of his talking and got it over with.

I don't think Sansa and Arya were playing him in the last couple episodes. Otherwise Sansa wouldn't have told him about Arya being a Faceless Man. He pushed too far with that "assume the worst" conversation.
posted by Gary at 12:44 AM on August 28 [8 favorites]


That was so great, I can't wait for next week's episode. Let me check when it's on.

...

freeze me ice dragon
posted by adept256 at 1:19 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]


I'm pleased that I called the play between Cersei and Jamie, mostly. It was a very satisfying episode all round.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 1:46 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


Littlefinger died as he lived: unable to pick an accent.
posted by guiseroom at 4:48 AM on August 28


When he was talking to Sansa, trying to dob Arya right in it with her sister, Littlefinger's accent was full-on Oirish. He gave up trying to maintain any semblance of consistency in about season 3.

Tormund better not have died. The internet is full of theories this morning that there was a part of The Wall that remained standing, and that Tormund was in it. If he'd died, I don't doubt they'd have (a) showed his death and/or (b) showed him as one of the dead walking at the end.

And now the internet will be closely watching the hair/beard of Kristofer Hivju over the next few months. That's what gave away the Jon Snow reincarnation, as Kit Harington hates the hair and would've cut it immediately if he'd not been in the show any more.
posted by essexjan at 3:37 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


The scene with Theon was very meh and I had been interested in the storyline. But the awkwardness of asking Jon for advice was too overwhelming, (though well acted). I kept thinking "Why is this important, let's move on."

That scene worked for me because I thought that Theon was there to kill Jon. I had thought that he was deciding whether to stab Jon and fulfill a deal he made with Euron to get Yara back. Hence the dialogue was about whether he was a Greyjoy (stabby stab stab) or a Stark (don't stab). But I was totally wrong about that.
posted by about_time at 3:56 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]


I guess if I'm trying to find something nice to say: it's nice to get some insight from the writer's room?

"Whenever I'm writing Cersei's scenes, I like to play a little game. I ask myself: what's the stupidest possible thing she could be doing?"

(oh god I'm so fucking done with Cersei, she is such an uninteresting waste of a character at this point.
Props to Lena Heady and all, but the writers give her nothing to do but grimace and stare at people and growl about family and be petty and stupid and holy shit it is both boring and appalling and just fucking end her)

posted by tocts at 4:02 AM on August 28 [9 favorites]


Tormund better not have died. The internet is full of theories this morning that there was a part of The Wall that remained standing, and that Tormund was in it. If he'd died, I don't doubt they'd have (a) showed his death and/or (b) showed him as one of the dead walking at the end.

I watched that sequence pretty closely - he ran along the wall, then turned around and watched it collapse (and stop a few metres from him), which then cut to the big collapse scene as the whole end of the wall fell into the sea. So I think the implication is that he just survived, along with Lord Eyepatch. And is now marooned on top of the Wall watching the army of the dead saunter past, and probably has to walk to Castle Black to get down.
posted by Happy Dave at 4:04 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]


This fits into my next problem, which is, why exactly does the Night King want to kill all humans?

There *is* a fairly good answer to this, but I'm pretty sure that info is books-only, and not really explored in the show.


It was revealed in season 6 of the show that the Children of The Corn created the Night King to protect themselves from humans. Bran watched it happen. They stuck a dragon glass shard into his heart. Btw, if you go back and watch that scene, it takes place in summer and under the same arrowhead mountain that The Hound saw in the fire and visited in s7e6 ("we are close now.")

See pics here. (show only article)
posted by about_time at 4:09 AM on August 28 [7 favorites]


But who didn't enjoy seeing Baelish die?

Me.

The show just lost its most interesting villain and everything that follows is all surface level and dull. But I suppose having Good Guys and Bad Guys fighting Worst Guys is easier to sell (and write) than political machinations and intrigue.

I preferred the show when they didn't have the budget to just blow shit up every episode and conflicts sometimes were resolved by being smart. Just look at Varys: he's gone from central figure to sideline because he can't punch good.

Most everyone has their cards on the table now and I can't help but think the show is worse off for it.
posted by slimepuppy at 4:34 AM on August 28 [24 favorites]


The show just lost its most interesting villain and everything that follows is all surface level and dull. But I suppose having Good Guys and Bad Guys fighting Worst Guys is easier to sell (and write) than political machinations and intrigue.

But... Littlefinger has been anything but interesting this season! All he did for 7 episodes was lean and smirk.
posted by TwoStride at 4:46 AM on August 28 [9 favorites]


Two thoughts for now:

Littlefinger's lurking-and-smirking game had been tired for a while now, I'm glad that he finally got his just desserts.

Jon's, er, Aegon's claim to the Throne may be superior to Dany's, but will that really matter to anyone? Her real power comes from the dragons, the Dothraki, and the Unsullied, and only the first of those are likely to care about Targaryen blood.
posted by Zonker at 4:50 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]


My favorite part of this episode was the scene between Theon and Jon.

On the other hand, the Wall falling scene was anti-climatic for me. I've known it was going to happen eventually, but I didn't actually get excited when it did.
posted by drezdn at 4:52 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


Littlefingers potential for being machiavellian was there.....in the first few seasons it was explored. as others point out, he's been wasted the last season or so...
posted by lalochezia at 5:16 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]


"Fun" game: Sooooo, when did Arya and Sansa talk and decide to conspire against Baelish? Perhaps after Arya found the note? She took it Sansa, told what she saw and how Baelish was backstabby backstabber and they decided to just have these various scenes of the two of them alone, arguing?

Certainly by the time that Sansa sent Brienne away, since she had to know that Arya would have her back by that point.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:29 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


"Fun" game: Sooooo, when did Arya and Sansa talk and decide to conspire against Baelish? Perhaps after Arya found the note? She took it Sansa, told what she saw and how Baelish was backstabby backstabber and they decided to just have these various scenes of the two of them alone, arguing?

IMO we saw the "conspiring" when they played the game of faces. Arya tells Sansa she's going to tell her a lie and make it sound like the truth. She tells her she wants to kill her and wear her pretty dresses. Sansa doesn't immediately get it, interprets Arya as being shitty to her. She continues to talk to various people, to tease out different information--from Baelish, from Brienne. I think the final domino fell when Baelish told her to see the worst in people. That was the lightbulb moment that allowed her to both understand what Arya was doing and Baelish was doing.

Honestly their whole plot was probably the most subtle one this season. Most everything else was ball stomping.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:36 AM on August 28 [38 favorites]


Also I'm betting that Arya will harvest Littlefinger's face and will use it to somehow infiltrate King's Landing next season.

Little Carcetti.

But it kind of feels like nothing has consequences anymore. Even the big moments turn out to just be tricks.

I gave up on Doctor Who largely for these exact same reasons. It seems to be an inexplicable trend.
posted by juiceCake at 5:40 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


That's fair - I'll miss the potential of Littlefinger doing something interesting. Wasted potential. If chaos is a ladder, the ladder is about to get a lot... err... taller? Shorter? Ladderier?
posted by slimepuppy at 5:42 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]


Jon's, er, Aegon's claim to the Throne may be superior to Dany's, but will that really matter to anyone?

I'm thinking that Dany will care. I doubt she's going to want to marry him if he has a better claim. That's a little too liable to make her wind up the queen consort rather than the queen.
posted by rue72 at 5:44 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]



That wine bit was pretty stupid. Medievalish ladies would have totally been drinking during pregnancy.


I read the wine as a test - does Cersi still think that Tyrion poisoned Joffrey? Would she will be willing to drink wine poured by the man who until recently she thought has poisoned her son?

Tyrion's "You're pregnant" could be read as seeing what was going on with Cersi and him realizing an alternative to her not drinking beyond she thinks he directly murdered her child.
posted by thecjm at 6:05 AM on August 28


I'm thinking that Dany will care. I doubt she's going to want to marry him if he has a better claim.

I've been thinking for a while that Jon and Dany will wind up ruling as joint monarchs, like William and Mary did in England. Dany is like William, the foreigner with the military power, while Jon is like Mary, the native who had the better claim to the throne. This also lines up well with GRRM's use of English history as a source.

But that thought just raises the larger question: is the show going to keep subverting fantasy tropes, or is it now just going to act them out?
posted by Zonker at 6:09 AM on August 28 [17 favorites]


Jon's claim to the iron throne - beyond Varys does the show have any old-school Targ loyalists? Is there anyone left alive in Westeros who is in a position of power AND openly believes that Robert's coronation was illegitimate?

Jon's true parentage is going to cause a lot of problems with his allies, but at this point is there any advantage to it at all?
posted by thecjm at 6:09 AM on August 28


Jon's true parentage is going to cause a lot of problems with his allies, but at this point is there any advantage to it at all?

If Jon doesn't end up riding a dragon before the series end, I will legit bake a dragon cake and eat it.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:13 AM on August 28 [21 favorites]


There are two Targaryens left and two dragons.

I do not think this is a coincidence.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:29 AM on August 28 [8 favorites]


IMO we saw the "conspiring" when they played the game of faces. Arya tells Sansa she's going to tell her a lie and make it sound like the truth.

Was that before or after Sansa sent Brienne away? Can't recall exactly, but think it was after. You think Arya was testing her for smarts?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 AM on August 28


Here you go, ROU_Xenophobe!

Bolshoi spasibo
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:39 AM on August 28


So GoT isn't on Earth is it? One thing I use to excuse some plot issues is that we aren't in medieval Europe. It's a different world where tech and lifestyle is about equivalent. So for example on the drinking pregnant thing - who's to say some Maester hasn't figured out that pregnant women shouldn't drink for whatever reason?
posted by freecellwizard at 6:57 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]


Eh, one of the reasons pregnant women--and all people--drank so much in the middle ages was that water wasn't safe to drink. I don't know that King's Landing has a municipal water system that supplies potable water, but maybe it does.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:03 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]


Why am I thinking so much about a series that has thousands of implausible boats from the treeless Iron Islands.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:04 AM on August 28 [18 favorites]


I've got to wait for the D&D recap to find out if we treat the Zombie Dragon as an Adult Blue Dragon with a lightning breath attack or an Adult White Dragon with a cone-of-coldesque Ice attack.

Dracolich with blue flame breath weapon, I think
posted by exogenous at 7:04 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]


Why am I thinking so much about a series that has thousands of implausible boats from the treeless Iron Islands.

The Land of Skynyrd Fans will always figure out a way to take a float trip.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:09 AM on August 28


beyond Varys does the show have any old-school Targ loyalists?

The show never bothered putting them there in the first place, but given how they've been going lately, I expect in next season it will be handwaved so it just causes some dramafeels with Dany but they eventually has a baby anyway and nothing comes of the tension. With just a few episodes left they don't have time for another claimant.
posted by corb at 7:14 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


Wasn't Rhaegar's first kid named Aegon Targaryan?

YES. YES HE WAS.


I don't actually think this is a problem. At the time Lyanna named the baby, both Rhaegar and his first son Aegon were dead.

Seems a bit weird now, but it used to be common even in the U.S. (not a land of royal hierarchies) to name subsequent children for earlier ones who had died young.

However on reflection--we are sure she said Aegon, I suppose? It would have been kinda cool if she'd named him Aemon instead.
posted by torticat at 7:26 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]


dis_integration: HOW DOES ICE FLAME MELT ICE?

Different flame types (of a Bunsen burner) depend on oxygen supply (Wikipedia image from the "flame" article)


TwoStride: HOW DOES HE FLY WITH ALL THOSE HOLES IN HIS WINGS?

In college my friend and I came up with the "invisible zombie theorem" - if you can accept that zombies exist, despite the laws of thermodynamics, then an invisible zombie is also acceptable, even though it's a step beyond the initial acceptance. Extended to GoT, if you accept zombies, and you accept magic, then a dragon zombie with tattered wings is not beyond the realms of in-show reality.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:27 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


Justinian: Are we just going to pretend that wasn't aunt-nephew boning? No?

dis_integration: "incest is maybe not so bad" is one of the themes of the show, so...

And incest in royal families is a relatively normal thing around the world, with varying thresholds for how close is too close for a "relationship" (Wikipedia). GRRM imagined this world as based somewhat on historic later medieval period, so here we are.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:31 AM on August 28


I realized this really, really fucking late in the game, honestly because the show is the only place that fully went there and we didn't know until this very episode how it would go, but I actually think Jon and Dany are fitting into the Arthurian mythos rather than any medieval/War of the Roses parallel.

The rightful son of the king (Arthur/Jon) is raised in obscurity and treated somewhat badly, until there is a vacuum on the throne and he is brought to court. However, before he is informed of their relationship, he sleeps with his aunt (Morgana/Dany), producing an incest baby that is the only heir to the throne. He is horrified, hijinks ensue.
posted by corb at 7:37 AM on August 28 [23 favorites]


Y'all, we have been watching a show for 7 years in which the main power couple are a twin brother and sister who bone constantly and have produced 3, possibly 4 children. The show has already crashed right through "Can incest be sexy? Can we have incesty sexy times on TV now and is it okay?" Aunt/Nephew who don't even know they are Aunt/Nephew banging is such small potatoes.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:38 AM on August 28 [12 favorites]


dis_integration: HOW DOES ICE FLAME MELT ICE?

Different flame types (of a Bunsen burner) depend on oxygen supply (Wikipedia image from the "flame" article)


So we're going with "zombie dragons who have only magical, not natural, bodily functions, have a higher content of oxygen in their flames?" and not "it's magic ice-fire". OK.
posted by dis_integration at 7:41 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


I don't actually think this is a problem. At the time Lyanna named the baby, both Rhaegar and his first son Aegon were dead.

But baby Aegon wasn't her son, he was Rhaegar and Elia's. It's kind of odd to name your kid after someone else's dead kid, especially one born from the woman your husband left to be with you.

However on reflection--we are sure she said Aegon, I suppose?

Yes. It's in the closed captions, I had to go back and watch with those on too.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:47 AM on August 28


Why not? Regular dragons need to breathe in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Zombie dragons can exhale oxygen, as their lungs don't need to take up oxygen from the air.

We do know that combustion of certain elements creates a colored fire. Copper burns green, for example. Perhaps the addition of zombogen to the draconic flame glands turns the fire a bright blue? We do know zombogen has a bluing effect to the fire of one's eyes.
posted by explosion at 7:47 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]


I never read fanfic, and beyond that far be it from me to give HBO advice on sex scenes. Having said that...

It would have been SO EASY to make that scene between Jon and Danaerys a million times hotter.

First, could they possibly have touched once or twice in all the preceding episodes? A little well-placed physical contact goes a long way toward making all the brooding, staring-into-each-other's eyes stuff more meaningful. Having both of them go straight from no-touching, to meeting up dressed in full royal/battle clothing, to fully naked doing it missionary style was about as sexy as Littlefinger and Lysa together.

For that matter a tiny bit of dialogue in the scene would have helped!

Second, we know Jon Snow likes to go down and we know it was a huge deal that he bent the knee, I mean really they weren't going to do anything with all that? ;-) My god, Danaerys could have had a nightie on for the whole scene (per Emilia's nudity preferences) and it still coulda been a lot better.

The thing is I don't actually think that Emilia and Kit lack the range, or are incapable of chemistry. I just think they were directed really badly. Both of the characters are proud and reserved, true. But you gotta show that reserve breaking down at least a tiny bit, and I'm not talking about hieroglyphics tours, or handing a damn dinosaur bone back and forth.

All of which, per my comment upthread--makes this scene yet another totally unearned payoff.
posted by torticat at 7:48 AM on August 28 [16 favorites]


First, could they possibly have touched once or twice in all the preceding episodes? A little well-placed physical contact goes a long way toward making all the brooding, staring-into-each-other's eyes stuff more meaningful. Having both of them go straight from no-touching, to meeting up dressed in full royal/battle clothing, to fully naked doing it missionary style was about as sexy as Littlefinger and Lysa together.

They actually did touch--Jon guides Dany's hand in the cave, they hold hands. But it was pretty chaste and just pretty flat.

I have a theory that the reason Harington is so bad at the sexual tension is that his fiance, who he romanced on set and is besties with his romantic co-lead, is watching and he feels weird about actually selling the romance. But it could be that he's just a turnip.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:53 AM on August 28 [11 favorites]


As the great Anna Russell used to say in her comedy routine about Wagner's Ring Cycle:

"She's his aunt, by the way."
posted by dnash at 8:04 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]


I have a theory that the reason Harington is so bad at the sexual tension is that his fiance, who he romanced on set and is besties with his romantic co-lead, is watching and he feels weird about actually selling the romance.

This is my theory as well. I'm pretty sure she accompanies him for a lot of this - why wouldn't she, she's besties with everyone on the set - so it's like "romance your fiancé's best friend, while she's watching and giggling quietly".
posted by corb at 8:06 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]


dany: I can't have kids

jon: said who? you should try

dany: well if you incest

source
posted by exogenous at 8:12 AM on August 28 [21 favorites]


Y'all, we have been watching a show for 7 years in which the main power couple are a twin brother and sister who bone constantly and have produced 3, possibly 4 children

I'm betting that fourth one is Euron's. Cersei clearly doesn't trust Jamie and no doubt blames him somewhat for the deaths of their actual three children. So fucking Euron and manipulating Jamie with that pregnancy sounds right about her speed these days.

Since the show loves the characters to have conversations off screen, I'm betting Tyrion was creeping outside the bedroom because of some unseen conversation he had with Cersei, to get her back to the negotiating table. Maybe he mentioned Danerys was infertile? I dunno, it was just so odd for Tyrion.

That sex scene was pretty stale. Jon just shows up at the door like "Oh hey, it's time we do this." Both actors have been hot and sexy with other lovers, so clearly they were directed to be so boring, but the question is why.

Hell, Jon was even giving more emotion when Melissandre (the red witch) was trying to seduce him back at Castle Black. You'd think fire and ice would sizzle. Or maybe because it's ice and ice, that's why it's cold?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:14 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


But baby Aegon wasn't her son, he was Rhaegar and Elia's. It's kind of odd to name your kid after someone else's dead kid

But he was Rhaegar's son. Guess it just doesn't seem that odd to me that she would try to honor both of their deaths.
posted by torticat at 8:21 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


So Theon and his merry band are heading back to the Iron Islands, or the opposite direction of the way Euron is heading? I'm really hoping that Theon somehow magically sinks Euron and all of the Golden Company, including their CGI elephants. I feel like there's going to be big CGI battles next season with Wight Dragons and Wight Giants, etc. I don't have it in me to care about new CGI characters. Or, Daario hanging out back in Essos could stymie this plan too. It would be best if the Iron Bank holds Cersei responsible for the expense of the Golden Company too so that the Lannisters cannot pay their final debt.
posted by gladly at 8:23 AM on August 28


But the reason they're dead in the first place is that Rhaegar took off with Lyanna and had another baby. So.
posted by lydhre at 8:24 AM on August 28 [6 favorites]


"Fun" game: Sooooo, when did Arya and Sansa talk and decide to conspire against Baelish? Perhaps after Arya found the note? She took it Sansa, told what she saw and how Baelish was backstabby backstabber and they decided to just have these various scenes of the two of them alone, arguing?

I don't think they did. I think Arya walked into court cold.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:32 AM on August 28 [7 favorites]


That sex scene was pretty stale. Jon just shows up at the door like "Oh hey, it's time we do this." Both actors have been hot and sexy with other lovers, so clearly they were directed to be so boring, but the question is why.

For alternative perspective on how different people can read the same scenes: I was pleasantly surprised by how much heat Danerys and Jon managed to generate with each other in this episode. The intense looks! The small aside in the Dragon Pit, where Danerys's mouth was saying wtf did you do, and her eyes were saying that she found his inability to lie about being loyal to her to be super-let's-play-bend-the-knee-behind-the-pillar-hot!

Also, I'm incapable of finding Kit Harrington attractive because WASH THAT HAIR DUDE, but his butt is A+++++++++++++++++.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:32 AM on August 28 [10 favorites]


I'm sad that the last two episodes brought at end to my favorite facebook meme from this season: Jon Snow is perfect for Bikram yoga because he does not bend the knee.

Thinking more about things, while I'm glad that Littlefinger is dead and that Arya and Sansa had a genuinely good scene about understanding each other, I feel like this death was thrown in at the last minute and seems to have really wasted the "fate is a ladder" callback, particularly since it's not like we ever got to see Bran sharing more of what he knows beyond giving Arya the knife.
posted by TwoStride at 8:37 AM on August 28


Oh I thought there was a some chemistry between Jon and Dany earlier and agree that it was more subtle. I just think the knocking on the door thing was boring considering how much they argued about bending the knee and what. Would have preferred seeing them argue one more about Jon's stubbornness to lie and him continuing to be stubborn because he wanted to build a better world, blah blah, then there's a frantic tearing off of clothes, Danerys bends the knee or attacks him all sexy dragon like.

That was just "Hello Room service? I'm here to bone you."

Hell, even if Danerys had said something as they were boarding the ship, like "My room is one deck above yours, down the hall" and given him THE LOOK, that would have worked.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:44 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]


PhoBWanKenobi: It's interesting because Ned made a big deal to the boys that he who passes the sentence has to be the executioner, right? But the girls are skipping right past that.

But they're each doing what they're best at doing: ruling and killing. One could ask "why shouldn't women be as multi-talented as the men?" But the reply could be "Ned Stark sucked at ruling, as seen in Season 1, so that nobility got him nowhere."


thecjm: Jon's claim to the iron throne - beyond Varys does the show have any old-school Targ loyalists? Is there anyone left alive in Westeros who is in a position of power AND openly believes that Robert's coronation was illegitimate?

I'm pretty sure this was said in the show, but outside the circles of nobility, the people don't care who is in power, they just want stability to go about their lives and not have to get pulled into a war, or have their lands destroyed by an invading army (or hungry/ bored dragon).


torticat: I never read fanfic, and beyond that far be it from me to give HBO advice on sex scenes.

Having said that... It would have been SO EASY to make that scene between Jon and Danaerys a million times hotter.

First, could they possibly have touched once or twice in all the preceding episodes? A little well-placed physical contact goes a long way toward making all the brooding, staring-into-each-other's eyes stuff more meaningful.


As others noted, they touched a few times, but no one pointed out how they almost got intimate last time they were on a boat, but Jon got sleepy or something and decided that their conversation was over.

Also, they had meaningful looks when Jorah was trying to convince her to fly up to the wall, to avoid a crossbow bolt from a local person holding a grudge against her father, but Jon said "or, we could take a boat together" *nudge nudge wink wink* and she was all "Oooh, yes, let's take a boat. Together." Then Jorah went all sad puppy. (At least, that's how I read the scene and their faces.)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:49 AM on August 28 [8 favorites]


Feels kind of weird/sad that the Stark kids always wax poetic about their dearly departed dad but never talk about their dead mum.

Honestly, I think it makes sense, especially given which kids have survived.

I think that Ned looms so large in Arya and Sansa's minds because they witnessed his death first-hand, and his death caused their lives and family to immediately unravel. Once Ned died, they were on their own, even though their mother was still alive. So I can see them focusing on him more because his death was such a huge turning point, the end of an era for them, and because dwelling instead on the parent who was powerless to help or guide you as your world shattered would probably be a lot more uncomfortable and disturbing.

Dr. Branhattan doesn't have much time for this family stuff, apparently.

Jon and Theon seemed to have basically no relationship with Cat, whereas Ned was a father figure to them (obviously, to Jon much more than Theon). I always thought it was sad that Jon wanted Cat to be more maternal to him than she was, but then that turned out to have absolutely no impact on his life or character development, so.

But he was Rhaegar's son. Guess it just doesn't seem that odd to me that she would try to honor both of their deaths.

When I was watching, I thought that she named the baby Eddard Targaryen. I thought it was really smart to name him after Ned, since Ned would apparently be raising him, and making the baby his namesake might inspire some extra love/loyalty in him. And I figured that Ned called him Jon instead so that Cat wouldn't be pissed off.

But nope. :)

So Theon and his merry band are heading back to the Iron Islands, or the opposite direction of the way Euron is heading?

I think that Theon is going to try and intercept Euron, because at the Wight Reveal, Euron made it sound like he had Yara with him. Personally, I think that Yara is probably back in the Red Keep (because why would you be dragging your POW all over hither and yon?) but Theon is going to discover that Euron is going to Essos rather than going home.

That whole thing was so stupid. Remember back when Theon took Winterfell and made that big beautiful speech about holding it for honor and glory or whatever, and then some Ironborn just boinked him on the head and left him for Ramsey? That sucked, but it made sense. This time, he makes an even stupider speech and yet they follow him. Pfft. OK. Instead of appealing to whatever idealism the Ironborn have shown AGAIN and AGAIN that they do not possess, shouldn't Theon have argued that Dany is probably going to win, both against the dead and against Euron/Cersei, so it makes practical sense to stay loyal to Dany, and by extension, to Yara? Even then, I think it would have been a pretty iffy proposition. The show also breezed over the revelation that Yara had promised an end to their way of life, but really, I would think that the Ironborn would find that a pretty big deal and it would really affect their loyalty toward her!

And even though I enjoyed the confrontations that Tyrion and Jaime each had with Cersei, I likewise found it strange that neither one of them (especially Tyrion) appealed to her pragmatism and desire for power/political capital. I mean, what would Tywin do if faced with the threat of the White Walkers? I don't think that he would just let his enemy take them on alone and then take all the credit for being a Big Damn Hero all for herself. If the White Walkers win, that won't matter -- but if they win, then NOTHING matters, so no point in preparing for that scenario. My thinking is, send Jaime up there if nothing else, FFS. Because what if the living do win against the dead, and there's not a Lannister there to take any kind of credit for it? Or at least to be revered as a martyr to the cause? I thought that "avoid blame, seek credit" was a basic rule of the game.

I did appreciate that Cersei truly knows Tyrion well, though, and knew to play on his obsession with being part of the family and its legacy. I liked that she knew that he would try to take Casterly Rock first thing, and that he would never want to destroy the Lannister line. I also loved when he called her bluff by telling her all the things he'd done to destroy their family and begged her to have him killed. Peter Dinklage really brought it.

Why did Cersei originally agree to cooperate in return for Jon, though? It surprised me when she gave those terms for her deal.
posted by rue72 at 8:54 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


"Dr. Branhattan"

🏅🏆
posted by komara at 8:59 AM on August 28 [6 favorites]


Oh and also, in light of Euron's theatrics at the Wight Reveal all being fake and part of Cersei's plan, what was with him coming in hot and immediately telling Theon he had to come to him or he would kill Yara? Was that just him messing with Theon for shits and giggles (probably), or was there a point to that?

It seemed like he was trying to "reveal" to Theon that Yara is still alive, but I can't really tell if he actually was trying to drop that information in a relatively subtle (for Euron) way, or if he was straight up just trying to bait him into a trap, or if that was the writers being hamfisted in telling us-the-viewers that Yara is still alive?
posted by rue72 at 9:00 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


I'm guessing mostly hamfisted writing, but also perhaps to sell Euron's "defection" since he's already been "yelled at/humiliated" in front of the others by Cersei?
posted by TwoStride at 9:03 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]




Brienne beard scritching on set

WRONG BEARD. Talk about absurd fantasy ships ... #theotherkindofshiptruther
posted by tilde at 9:49 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]


I liked it.

This is a good show, It's fun to watch.
posted by French Fry at 9:54 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]


Why did Cersei originally agree to cooperate in return for Jon, though?

It would be a really good deal for her. Let the white walkers thin out Dany's army, then let her fresh army take out Dany's decimated and un augmented one.
posted by corb at 10:04 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


I don't understand Cersei. She can't expect a reduction in Dany and Jon's forces after fighting the white walkers. The WW's will just add her dead opponents to their own army. So she'll need to fight the WWs + Dany/Jon armies + all the recently dead. Seems like a net plus in enemies.
posted by bluemoonegg at 10:26 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


If Dany/Jon win, their army is still likely reduced, and the dragons are potentially injured or killed.

If the Night King wins, so long as the humans net at least one wight killed per human, it's a net reduction in the White Walker forces. Given that your average human fighter is more than a match for the average wight, it's a good gamble.

Either way, Cersei's likely looking at a net reduction of enemies. More importantly though, she needs to buy time. She needs to replenish her armies, weapons, etc.
posted by explosion at 10:35 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]


Yes, rue72, clearly next season Theon will take command of Euron's ships,
and therefore the mercenary's Cersei has hired. That will be 10 minutes of screen time over 3 episodes.

What did anyone take away from the "conversation" between the Clegane bros.? He said this wasn't the end for his brother and that the mountain knew he was coming for him. Who is coming for the mountain? Since The Hound has visions now, I assume this is something meaningful.
posted by about_time at 10:35 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


It would be a really good deal for her. Let the white walkers thin out Dany's army, then let her fresh army take out Dany's decimated and un augmented one.

Right, so it doesn't make much sense to play Cersei's game, so Jon saying 'no,' is fine.

Frankly, why Daenerys didn't have Drogo burn them all is odd. Kill Cersei, who can't be trusted and her inner circle and boom, whole new army to march North.

I'm not sure why they're marching armies North if they all still think the Wall is there. When they find out that it's not so, then just march the armies north with the Dragons. Have the dragons soften the frozen ground, then put put the armies to work digging enormous trenches, filled with wild fire and well, the rest is easy, yeah?

'Cause having the living fight the dead just feeds the dead. Do one of those suicide missions to kill the Night King and boom, war over. Bring your best archers, put'em in hidey hole with some dragon glass arrows and just let'em wait until Mr. Blue Skin and his entourage pops into view and let loose.

Meanwhile, build more trenches.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:35 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]


Has no one yet posted this little ditty sung by the two best characters on the show?
posted by about_time at 10:38 AM on August 28 [19 favorites]


She's using the same reasoning little finger used. If the dead win we're fucked, if the living win let's be the winners.

The game she's playing is more dramatic though because it involves weakening the resistance to a potential end of the world event. This is really consistent with her character from the very beginning she is willing to kill literally anyone and everyone to get what she wants. She is willing to risk the end of the world to be able to rule it.

What's weird , is that Tyrion and a bunch of other people should know that by now.
posted by French Fry at 10:39 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


I loved this episode. Lots of great little moments. Especially loved Sansa & Arya, and not just serving Little Finger pie (I assume there was pie. Seemed like Arya perfected the dish with the Freys). But the conversation. They talked!

Also loved The Hound and Brienne, Brienne and Jaime, Brienne and... Brienne. Pod & Tyrion. Bronn and Tyrion. Tyrion and... Tyrion spying on lukewarm Targaryen lovin'. Even liked Theon & Jon, which I wouldn't have predicted caring about.

And Bran was actually useful and almost human.

Very satisfying.

I confess: I cheered out loud when Arya slit Little Finger's throat.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:40 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


I confess: I cheered out loud when Arya slit Little Finger's throat.

Everyone did!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:44 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]


I loved Sam as a foil for Bran.

Bran "I have something creepy and vague to say"

Sam "o...k.. well I have lots of detailed and specific questions"
posted by French Fry at 10:45 AM on August 28 [38 favorites]


(erm.. perhaps it's the hound that is coming for the mountain.)
posted by about_time at 10:46 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


Also, I loved how the Hound gave no Fucks about ceremony or court procedure and just walked up to the Mountain. And nobody batted an eye about that confrontation.

But seriously, dude, next time just bring the wagon in. Or get someone to help you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:50 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]


I confess: I cheered out loud when Arya slit Little Finger's throat.


And cringed when she put the knife away bloody.
posted by tilde at 11:06 AM on August 28 [17 favorites]


Cersei pregnancy theory (which I don't think has been elucidated here): she is pregnant, with twins. She'll die giving birth to the second, in fulfillment of prophecy.
posted by hanov3r at 11:14 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]


yeah i know i was saying just last week that i wanted him to be one of the last characters standing, but littlefinger's death was definitely satisfying. i loved seeing sansa throw all the shitty things he's done to them into his face.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:18 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


However awkwardly plotted the groundwork, the acting during the lead up to Baelish's quick trial was very well done. All three actors do a wonderfully understated job at the reveal, especially Turner's and Williams' brief, tiny smiles. They are so damn satisfying to see. Gillen's little twitch of shock as he's called out is well played.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 11:18 AM on August 28 [10 favorites]


Either way, Cersei's likely looking at a net reduction of enemies.

Still, I thought Jaime's "you DO realize one of the sides will win, right?" speech was one of Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's best moments yet. I love it when they let Jaime be animated. Actually that whole fight with Cersei was very fun.
posted by torticat at 11:27 AM on August 28 [8 favorites]


What did anyone take away from the "conversation" between the Clegane bros.? He said this wasn't the end for his brother and that the mountain knew he was coming for him. Who is coming for the mountain? Since The Hound has visions now, I assume this is something meaningful.


I assume that it means when Jon and Danerys return south after defeating the Night King, the Hound is going to fight the Mountain to the death while Jaime/Jon/Tyrion wtfever kill Cersei.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:27 AM on August 28


> HOW DOES ICE FLAME MELT ICE?
The wall didn't turn to water, it fell down. wikipedia: "Ice may be any one of the 17 known solid crystalline phases of water, or in an amorphous solid state at various densities."

Rearrange the H2O molecules into a structure that can't bear it's own weight (how about Diamond Dust?) and it falls down.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 11:44 AM on August 28


So... it will only take a single dragon glass arrow to kill the ice dragon, right? Based on how dragon glass instakills the other baddies. Too bad they didn't think to get a single dragon glass arrow up on the wall.
posted by hamandcheese at 11:49 AM on August 28 [15 favorites]


Wish I could favorite that more than once, hamandcheese. So so stupid. Specially since a bunch of them just, like, what, 2 days ago? sailed up north from Dragonstone.
posted by torticat at 11:54 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]


Why am I thinking so much about a series that has thousands of implausible boats from the treeless Iron Islands.

OK, so I didn't want to spoil this for everyone, but all the ship truthers have finally pushed me to it: Obviously, there was wasn't enough trees or time for Euron to build a fleet of 1000 ships. Also, he didn't have enough people to crew them. So, the ship truthers are correct, but miss the point.

The ships aren't made of wood. They aren't even "built," in the traditional sense. The ships are grown from special lichen that grows only on the rocks of the Iron Islands. And they don't require traditional crews, as this is sentient lichen. The ships basically run themselves. Theron will manage to beat Euron's entire fleet with a single ship by ignoring Euron and appealing directly to the ships themselves.

Why was Tyrion creeping in the hallway during sexytime?

Listen, not to be weird but Jon Snow's butt is out of control

bran watched we all know he did

maybe Tree Bran warged into Tyrion so that he could extra creepily listen in on his brother/cousin Jon having incest sex.

The only answer to all of these is that Bran warged into Jon's butt.

Also, for everyone complaining about how dumb Jon was for not lying to Cersei: You understand that he actually threw her plan off for a bit, right? That she was never going to honor any deal with them, so by insisting on telling her the truth, Cersei was actually forced to regroup for a bit and kind of tip her hand. Now I'm not saying this was Jon's plan, or that he was being smart. I'm just saying that it would never have made any difference. The only reason that Cersei agreed to even talk with them is so she would have a chance to shine them on while plotting against them. Jon was dumb, but he wasn't wrong, either.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:07 PM on August 28 [20 favorites]


Frankly, why Daenerys didn't have Drogo burn them all is odd.

I think that was kind of the point of Tyrion's speech to Danaerys about the difference between D & C. Daenerys doesn't operate like that (or at least not when receiving good counsel). You don't show up to parley and then turn traitor (not unless you're Cersei).

Related to that, though, I do wonder what plot device (if they bother) will be invented for keeping the Viserion-riding Walker from just flying ahead and laying waste to Winterfell and then proceeding south. He doesn't have any of the compunction that Dany, Jon, Tyrion, et al have. Why would he stick around waiting for the shambling army of the dead to keep up?
posted by torticat at 12:08 PM on August 28 [4 favorites]


I'm willing to accept a combo of shock and awe and also the dragon's skin being thick enough to still repeal arrows, dragon glass or otherwise.
posted by French Fry at 12:08 PM on August 28


But if you made a dragon glass spear and shot it from a Scorpion...
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:15 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


Jon was dumb, but he wasn't wrong, either.

Perfectly explains Jon's actions for the past 7 seasons and also why his girlfriend actually shot him with arrows, tbh.
posted by lydhre at 12:15 PM on August 28 [10 favorites]


Danerys bends the knee or attacks him all sexy dragon like.

I was thinking more along the lines of Jon bends the knee to start, and then they move on to the more conventional (heir-producing?) stuff. Haha.

It would actually have made sense though. A friend pointed out that Jon takes the dominant position just as the voiceover is saying he's the rightful heir to the throne. They could have told the whole story of their relationship through sex and made the scene a lot hotter at the same time!

/fanficcing
posted by torticat at 12:15 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


Frankly, why Daenerys didn't have Drogo burn them all is odd. Kill Cersei, who can't be trusted and her inner circle and boom, whole new army to march North.

Yeah. I mean, I think it was good that they offered to treat with them first. It's easier and faster if they just truce and fight together. But after Jon said no, Dany should have "counter-offered" by killing them with her dragons. I mean, she was fine doing that to the Tarlys, and it arguably makes a lot more sense here. It's not like she can leave Cersei, Jaime, Robert Strong, or any of that inner circle alive if/when she wins the throne, so it's just a question of whether she kills them now or later anyway.

Personally, I'm happy that Cersei is still alive, because I still find her interesting and fun to watch. But I don't know why Dany just accepted her "no" like Cersei really is the queen, since in Dany's eyes, she's just a usurper. And Jaime is the one who killed Dany's brother, which I feel was kind of lost in all this. I mean, you'd think Dany would capture him at least, you know?

That's another thing -- they could have exchanged prisoners there, as part of the negotiation. And speaking of, how nice would it have been if Jaime had been Dany's prisoner (after he took a shot at the queen and missed, and fell into that incredibly deep river) and she'd offered to exchange him for a truce (and Yara)? And if that deal had blown up, Dany could have burnt Jaime alive, which probably would have had unforeseen consequences for Tyrion as well as Cersei (and Dany). Well, I guess that conjecture just means that I have an altogether different idea of how the show could have spun out in the second half of this season, though *shrug*

She's using the same reasoning little finger used. If the dead win we're fucked, if the living win let's be the winners.

Which would be a good strategy, and a reason to send a nominal force with the Living. I mean, Cersei can send some men, and Dany can say that Cersei's not fulfilling the spirit of being allies, only the letter, and Cersei can just continue to lie and say she's doing what they said.

But refusing to send anybody? That seems unnecessarily rigid. And confrontational and forthright and risky -- and all for no good reason. Also, this way it'll be a lot harder for her to get spies to infiltrate Dany's retinue.

Although I think that she may sorta/kinda have a spy in Tyrion, if she plays her cards right. He wouldn't help her, but he might help Jaime or even Bronn or this Schrodinger's Baby. I think that him creeping in the shadows while Jon and Dany got it on was meant to hint at that.

Yes, rue72, clearly next season Theon will take command of Euron's ships, and therefore the mercenary's Cersei has hired. That will be 10 minutes of screen time over 3 episodes.

Ugh, very annoying. I like Theon and I find that annoying. There's no way he can or should be commanding a fleet, he has yet to command a single boat or a single mission successfully. He can't even take command of a conversation.

Also, I guess I have been assuming that his rescue plan was to use his little skeleton crew to do a clandestine raid on Euron's ship and just get Yara and leave. And no, I don't know what's in it for the Ironborn -- and I would think that Theon himself would be a lot more cautious and distrustful of them seeming to go along with him now, seeing as he has betrayed the Ironborn (at Moat Cailin) and they sure as shit betrayed him at Winterfell.

But characters' decisions on this show don't really have consequences in the way that they used to, so I guess the Ironborn are down for a rousing speech and a carefully timed and uncomfortably brutal public killing nowadays. Even though that is exactly what failed for Theon at Winterfell.

What did anyone take away from the "conversation" between the Clegane bros.? He said this wasn't the end for his brother and that the mountain knew he was coming for him. Who is coming for the mountain? Since The Hound has visions now, I assume this is something meaningful.

Honestly, I have NO idea who is coming for the Mountain. Who has the Mountain "always known" would come after him? Is there someone or something that he's always been afraid of?

I don't think the Hound was speaking about himself. The Mountain never thought the Hound would come for him, has he? (Or maybe he has and I don't remember?).
posted by rue72 at 12:19 PM on August 28 [3 favorites]


You know how they could have made the sex scene hotter? Instead of having Tyrion lurking outside the door, we should have watched the entire scene unfold in the literal flames as Melisandre watched.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:20 PM on August 28 [7 favorites]


Who else would be strong enough to tear a hole through The Mountain? John Henry!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:26 PM on August 28 [4 favorites]


And Jaime is the one who killed Dany's brother, which I feel was kind of lost in all this.

Jaime only killed Dany's father, no? And she knows Aerys was mad. Robert killed Rhaegar.

Danaerys is not going to deliberately roast Jaime in front of Tyrion's eyes, I don't think. She probably wouldn't even roast his sister. Not until things get worse than this. At the close of this episode, Danaerys still thinks Cersei is calling her bannermen to fight along with them.
posted by torticat at 12:27 PM on August 28


I think that was kind of the point of Tyrion's speech to Danaerys about the difference between D & C. Daenerys doesn't operate like that (or at least not when receiving good counsel). You don't show up to parley and then turn traitor (not unless you're Cersei).

Yeah, let's continually try to reason with the person everyone knows will double cross them the first moment she can.

Cersei said No to helping them fight the WW for her own stupid and selfish reasons. At that point, she's just an anchor tying everyone down. Kill her and be done with her bullshit.

This is the literal end of the world, and Cersei turned her back on them. She's no longer of any use.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:30 PM on August 28 [3 favorites]


re: Dany

Robert killed one of her brothers, Khal Drogo killed the other. And the Mountain killed two of her nieces and nephews. And she banged the third.
posted by Justinian at 12:30 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


Random nitpicky thought that I suspect is explained by "shoddy writing" but...
Re the comment that Bran messed up the surname when he said Jon should be Jon Sand: is it further calling attention to the fact that Melisandre hasn't really brought fire and ice together? I'm guessing that prophecy is now actually gonna be the reunion with the ice dragon!
posted by TwoStride at 12:36 PM on August 28


But if you made a dragon glass spear and shot it from a Scorpion... - good

But if you made a dragon glass spear and Bran shot it from a Scorpion... better?
posted by cardboard at 12:54 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


So be sweet and kind to Auntie
now and then have a chat.
Buy her banners for her dragons
or a brand new hat.
But maybe you had better let it go at that!

Or you may end up with a
quite complex complex,
And you may end up a marryin'
your dragon-loving Aunt Tagaryen
And end up like old Oedipus Rex.


posted by Flitcraft at 12:58 PM on August 28 [11 favorites]


Why has no one questioned the Essos merchant who gave Daenerys the Dragon eggs back in season 1? Who wouldn't want more dragons?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:59 PM on August 28 [17 favorites]


Do you know how much it costs to feed even a single dragon? That's why you should always hold out for zombie dragons, if you have the means to acquire one.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:02 PM on August 28 [5 favorites]


But if you made a dragon glass spear and Bran shot it from a Scorpion... better?

Dammit, I meant Bronn.
posted by cardboard at 1:06 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


I still don't understand why they needed to parlay with Cersei at all, beyond Dany's pride. So what if Cersei takes back the fucking South while they're off killing wights? We've established that the White Walkers are an EXISTENTIAL threat, Dany and Jon and the lot of them have all accepted it, and yet this whole conversation with Cersei still happened and they STILL thought they were fucked if she didn't agree. They would have had to fight her regardless afterwards.

What the fuck ever about the Iron Throne, come on.

And also, how did Tyrion or Jamie even for a second believe meek "I pledge you my troops now get the fuck outta here" Cersei?
posted by lydhre at 1:08 PM on August 28 [4 favorites]


You can't let Cersei flank you while you're fighting zombies, because she's already shown that she doesn't give a damn about existential threats. She'd totally attack you as soon as your back is turned. As evidenced by the fact that this is exactly the plan she just explained to Jaime.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:22 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


As others noted, they touched a few times, but no one pointed out how they almost got intimate last time they were on a boat, but Jon got sleepy or something and decided that their conversation was over.

I know, I know it's not true that they literally never touched. Just never found it particularly compelling when they did. That first ship scene was nice. Undercut by his calling her "Dany" (like, whaa? where did that come from, Jon?) and redeemed by "my queen." I mainly thought that was kind of sweet though, not much more.

But to each his/her own! The main reason I care at all (as I think I've said in a previous thread) is that unlike some viewers, I really LIKE Jon and Danaerys, and for that matter I like Kit and Emilia. So I want FIREWORKS, goddammit!!
posted by torticat at 1:24 PM on August 28


What the fuck ever about the Iron Throne, come on.


That's...a good point. Rule from Dragonstone, command the loyalty of the other houses, and at some point Cersei starts looking like a pretender queen holding King's Landing. Eventually things get bad enough in the city that someone kills Cersei for you, and begs you to restore the city to its former glory.

Or the capital city just moves for practicality's sake. It's not like capitals have never moved.
posted by explosion at 1:35 PM on August 28


But if you made a dragon glass spear and shot it from a Scorpion...

Look, Jaime, all I know is that this is the best bow ever made and that it's strung with the guts of someone called Klaus Meine...
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:41 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


a monstrous she wolf: What you missed on 7x07 of Game of Thrones

The emmys love a good dick joke.
posted by homunculus at 2:51 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]




how did Tyrion or Jamie even for a second believe meek "I pledge you my troops now get the fuck outta here" Cersei?

The baby. No one else knew, but I think Tyrion and Jaime both believed Cersei would do whatever it took to save the kingdoms for her baby. They did not realize that in all her vengefulness, she would be so shortsighted in going about it. (Of course they should have realized, since Cersei has never, ever been anything other than shortsighted.)
posted by torticat at 3:05 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


So my top tip is watch it absolutely blasted out of your brain on scrumpy... then it's totally awesome.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:06 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


I may have missed something somewhere.

So Jon is a Targ. How would this even be proved? Would Jon himself even believe it? The person that knows for sure is dead. Sam knows about records of the marriage but the only other proof of Jons connection to that marriage is Bran and his mystical visions.

I guess I'm wondering how it's even going to matter much because I would think a hella lot of people would just think that it's a lie to get power or a bunch of bullshit. There is no real evidence or witnesses.

It is a big deal but I don't see realistically how it means a whole lot without any real proof.
posted by Jalliah at 3:15 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


If all the other episodes this season had as much room to breathe as this one did, I might not have hated them so much. 1-and-a-bit hours and maybe one or two more episodes and Season 7 wouldn't have been the hamfisted failure that it was.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:18 PM on August 28 [4 favorites]


Man... I so wished Brandon 'I've got all the boxed sets' Stark could have made a 'guess you've just fallen off the ladder' remark as Littlefinger bled out.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:29 PM on August 28 [8 favorites]


Oh and the wine thing... I though it was a nod back to when Tyrion was King Joff's cup bearer... I doubt Cersai would be drinking anything offered to her by her potential son's poisoner (despite what Jamie told her about the Queen of Thorns deathbed confession)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:30 PM on August 28


So Jon is a Targ. How would this even be proved? Would Jon himself even believe it? The person that knows for sure is dead. Sam knows about records of the marriage but the only other proof of Jons connection to that marriage is Bran and his mystical visions.
Howland Reed was with Ned at the Tower of Joy. Presumably he knew that Lyanna was there and observed Ned leaving with baby Aegon/Jon (Aejon). He's still alive and if asked could be a witness. In combination with the information about Lyanna's secret marriage to Rhaegar, that should be enough.
posted by llachglin at 3:32 PM on August 28 [5 favorites]


So Jon is a Targ. How would this even be proved?

Drogon knows. Who is going to argue with him?
posted by zakur at 3:37 PM on August 28 [5 favorites]


I forgot about Howland Reed. I also never put two and two together with Jon and Drogon. Duh. :)

Okay I feel better now.
posted by Jalliah at 3:39 PM on August 28




> At least the Dothraki look like they're having fun; I like a warrior who enjoys a little war.

How much fun can they be having, though? They're sort of like the Ironborn of the steppes: pillaging, sacking and raping are their thing. They were promised that they'd get to tear down some stone houses, but so far they've got to fight just one battle against an army, and now they're heading up to the freezing cold (and like Stannis, they are not dressed for that weather) in order to fight an army of dead people. For this they crossed the black salt sea? Where's the fun in that?

One of the consequences of bringing the Dothraki to Westeros, which many of us have been anticipating since the first season, was that Dany would inevitably lose control over them and they'd start ransacking the Seven Kingdoms, but so far this horde is awfully tame, well behaved and, well, not really very Dothraki. Of course that's been true since they bowed down to the foreign sorceress who destroyed their temple. I hope the writers don't just gloss over the logical narrative consequence of having the Dothraki begin to chafe under Dany's command. At least some of them should go their own way at some point, maybe to the Reach or the Riverlands since both have power vacuums now.
posted by homunculus at 3:55 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


Yeah, but, they're here now, aren't they? Not sure they have the means to return home. Which means, they're either zombie killers or zombie fodder. I bet they choose zombie killers.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:03 PM on August 28 [3 favorites]


So Jon is a Targ. How would this even be proved? Would Jon himself even believe it? The person that knows for sure is dead. Sam knows about records of the marriage but the only other proof of Jons connection to that marriage is Bran and his mystical visions.

My guess is that he rides a dragon, and northerners forget their animosity towards the Targaryen line since Jon is a popular figure of the North. The show doesn't seem to be getting out of high fantasy at this point, and that's about as high fantasy as it gets.
posted by codacorolla at 4:05 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


I don't think Bran messed up the Jon Sand name, if bastards are named based on where they're born. The Tower of Joy is in Dorne, and the Dornish name for bastards is Sand (like Ellaria Sand). This is what Bran says during his scene with Sam:

He's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and my aunt, Lyanna Stark.
He was born in a tower in Dorne.
His last name isn't really Snow, it's Sand.

posted by zsazsa at 4:21 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


He said this wasn't the end for his brother and that the mountain knew he was coming for him. Who is coming for the mountain? Since The Hound has visions now, I assume this is something meaningful.

The logical answer is "fire".
posted by elgilito at 4:38 PM on August 28 [4 favorites]


The 3-eyed Raven is totally just Comic Book Guy. But then, so is Sam. Nerd fight!

Sam: Blah, blah, blah, Jon Snow-
3-eyed Raven: Well, actually, his real name is Jon Sand. He was born in Dorn. And he's not Ned Stark's bastard, he's Rhaegar Targaryen's bastard.
Sam: Well, actually, Rhaegar Targaryen's bastard wasn't a bastard at all because Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark totally got secret married. So his name is Jon Targaryen.
3-eyed Raven: Well, actually, I just 3-eyed Ravened, and his real first name isn't Jon, it's Aegon. So his real name is Aegon Targaryen. And he's totally doing it with his Aunt Danaerys right now. And his ass looks like a pair of binoculars.
Sam: Well, actually, binoculars aren't a thing in Westeros, and you only have two eyes. And you're not a raven.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:43 PM on August 28 [39 favorites]


When Jon Snow said, "When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything, and then there are no more answers. Only better and better lies." I couldn't help but wonder if it was commentary on the Trump administration.
posted by carmicha at 5:11 PM on August 28 [17 favorites]


I couldn't help but wonder if it was commentary on the Trump administration.

If it is then it's a little funny that Scaramucci tweeted that line last night, saying it's about the "political establishment."
posted by zsazsa at 5:19 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


> Or, Daario hanging out back in Essos could stymie this plan too.

I could see that. Daario has the Second Sons, who could put up a fight against the Golden Company. I think Theon and Daario joining forces might be interesting, and I'm one of those who generally find Theon to be supremely uninteresting. And Yara and Daario could make a good team.

On the other hand, I think it's possible that he might join the forces against Dany. Daario was not happy when Dany dumped him and left him behind, and there's been plenty of time for his bitterness to grow. All season I was expecting for word to arrive from Essos that Daario had betrayed Dany in some way, like naming himself Emperor of the Bay of Dragons, or even reinstating the slave trade. It's not impossible that he'd end up joining forces with Dany's enemies. That's the sort of thing that I'd have expected during the first few seasons, back when betrayal was par for the course.
posted by homunculus at 5:50 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


If Jaime is heading north (I assume he's going to Winterfell?) that means there may be a "reunion" with Bran.

Awkward. Maybe even moreso than the beast with aunt/nephew backs.
posted by Golem XIV at 5:55 PM on August 28 [3 favorites]


I don't think Bran messed up the Jon Sand name, if bastards are named based on where they're born. The Tower of Joy is in Dorne, and the Dornish name for bastards is Sand (like Ellaria Sand).

Ned was raised in Riverrun (bastard name Rivers) and Robert's Rebellion didn't go farther north than the Trident (in the riverlands, farther south than where the Frey's are). I thought Ned's cover story was him being driven to another woman after so much time at war. But the bastard name Snow means it was the first stop out of town while he was up north calling the banners. No wonder Catelyn was pissed.
posted by Gary at 6:01 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


Now that we're unspoilerable (I think), /r/freefolk is good for some meme-style amusement.
posted by exogenous at 6:01 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]


I confess: I cheered out loud when Arya slit Little Finger's throat.

Tremendously satisfying, most of all because of how Arya did it in the most offhand "Bored now. Stop talking" Vampire Willow manner possible.

Brienne -- Brienne of Tarth, Most Upright and Noble and Loyal Person Alive By Sheer Force of Priggish Lawful-Good Will -- shouting "Fuck loyalty!"

Tremendously satisfying, especially in conjunction with Jaime maybe, possibly finally having enough of Cersei's bullshit. Dear writers: you can do whatever dumbass badly written hamhanded trope-reinforcing trash you want in the final season if you just give me some sweet, sweet Jaime/Brienne lovin'. Or better yet, Jaime/Brienne/Tormund. SHE HAS MORE THAN EARNED IT.

Oh and also, in light of Euron's theatrics at the Wight Reveal all being fake and part of Cersei's plan, what was with him coming in hot and immediately telling Theon he had to come to him or he would kill Yara?

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I'm just gonna go with my standard explanation for all his actions: Euron is a fucking dick.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:47 PM on August 28 [10 favorites]


It's also tremendously satisfying to get canonical confirmation of what we all knew waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in S1E01 when Robert Baratheon was boo-hoo-hoo-ing over some dead girl he loved 15 years before: "Dude, pretty sure she was just not that into you."
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:04 PM on August 28 [13 favorites]


Why do they always go for the Bad Boys instead of the Nice Guys like Robert Baratheon?!?!
posted by Justinian at 8:07 PM on August 28 [8 favorites]


dis_integration: I was really shocked by Littlefinger's execution and maybe a little annoyed. He's supposed to squirrel away and end up keeping evil alive.

Keeping evil alive? Anyway, his role was to teach Sansa, and having fulfilled his role, he had no further purpose. At least, that's how I saw things portrayed in this episode. The pupil became the teacher. The Sith master trains their replacement. Or something.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:29 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


Lili Loofbourow at The Week: Why Game of Thrones has become so incoherent
posted by homunculus at 8:34 PM on August 28 [3 favorites]


I don't think that anyone has mentioned this yet, but Bran isn't quite completely a wirehead zombie robot, fearfulsymetry's disappointment aside.

When Sam pays his visit to Bran, Bran's all "I see everything," Sam's "oooh," then Bran's "Jon & Dany are on their way to Winterfell."

Sam's "You, you saw that, eh eh, in a vision? Whoah!"

Bran flashes a raven message slip. (~1:08:45)

Sam: Oh, well. Right then.
posted by porpoise at 9:02 PM on August 28 [6 favorites]


> Yeah, but, they're here now, aren't they? Not sure they have the means to return home. Which means, they're either zombie killers or zombie fodder. I bet they choose zombie killers.

Many of them, sure, but again these are the Dothraki we're talking about. All Dothraki following a single leader is a foreign idea to them, and as spectacular as the Mother of Dragons is, she's not one of them. Not every one of them is going to give up the only way of life they've ever known to follow her in the fight against the undead (who've already slain one of her dragons) in the freezing cold. If they're remotely consistent with their own history and culture then some of them would splinter off and form their own khalasars and go a-pillaging and a-plundering on their own. And since they can't get back to Essos on their own, that's all the more reason to set their sights on an area like the Reach. I doubt the writers are going to bother with all that since they're in such a hurry to finish it, but that's what would happen if they were still concerned with narrative continuity.
posted by homunculus at 9:35 PM on August 28 [2 favorites]


... although you'd think [Bran] would have googled Rhaegar Lyanna wedding at least once.
Did anyone else laugh when he said he sees the past and the present and then asked Sam, "Why are you here?

I know we live in the age of google and this is how we find things now, but I was imagining Bran's past-vision thingy like it's a massive VHS archive. And the archive has only 1 tv to view stuff on. And there's no metadata or summaries for the tapes, just a label of time & place. So you have to know the exact time and place a thing happened, look it up in the index, get that tape off the shelf, put it into the VHS player, and then probably fast forward thru all the mundane bits to get to the one event you want. That's why Bran needed help at first to navigate to the right times and places. So Bran goes to take a look at the tape of Sam's last couple months, fast-forwards through a ton of chamberpot scrubbing, and then is like, uh fuck it I'll just ask. But then! He could instantly find the spot with the secret wedding, because he had enough clues about the place and time.

If I can help just one person not be driven to distraction by the inconsistencies of magic in GOT, I'll know my purpose on this earth was fulfilled.
posted by 100kb at 9:46 PM on August 28 [12 favorites]


Did they get the same actor to play flashback-Rhaegar as played Viscerys? That seems.....thrifty?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 10:30 PM on August 28


Nope, different actor. The wig was identical though.
posted by Happy Dave at 10:39 PM on August 28 [6 favorites]


Jon was dumb, but he wasn't wrong, either.

That fur coat in King's Landing sure was wrong.

Also, I feel sorry for the next person to dare Cersie to kill them.

Also, when I try to make any sort of sense of the Sansa/Arya fake conversations this season, I just think back to that comment about the idiotic time travel from the director of last week's episode: something like "Yeah, we knew it was bullshit but the final scene with the dragons was cool enough that you should have overlooked it."

I think that's what they also think about the incoherent Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger/Brienne scenes, which were all over the map as the writers delighted in hiding the (predictable) truth from us. "Wasn't it awesome to see Littlefinger get his throat slit? You should overlook the confusing absurdity of the scenes leading up to it, and the fact that we avoided giving you any scenes of the Stark kids working together! Because it was so cool to see Littlefinger get his throat slit!"

I think a lot of the blame for the limpness of the big reveals this season is due to the writers getting that outline from George Martin, knowing where they're supposed to end up and forcing themselves to get there. Not as much fun as writing your own show, for sure, and the boredom really shines through.
posted by mediareport at 2:57 AM on August 29 [2 favorites]


Great scenes from the side characters, as usual, the Big Meeting was nicely done all around, I did really think Cersie would kill her brother, and blue icefire dragon, so the show isn't a total hatewatch, but this season has been such a rushed, stupid disappointment that my expectations for the final six episodes are set very, very, very low.

That should get me through ok.
posted by mediareport at 3:03 AM on August 29


One more: that Our Heroes, after traipsing across the world and back to supposedly get it, brought exactly zero dragonglass back to the wall is a total hoot.
posted by mediareport at 3:12 AM on August 29 [7 favorites]


The wig was identical though.

Was it? Maybe it was just the lighting but Rhaegar looked to me like he had normal human blond hair, not weirdo silver hair like Danaerys's and Viserys's wigs.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:02 AM on August 29


So I have to admit that all the critiquing of Daenerys acting wooden, or not showing her feelings enough has been getting on my nerves. That stoic reserve is totally in character - right in season 1 we see that she has been raised by her abusive brother, who would punish and torment her whenever she did anything he didn't like. Of course she is going to react by hiding her feelings, and not showing when anything has an impact on her. That is a common coping strategy amongst people trapped in abusive situations. A character like Cerci can rant and gnash her teeth and be openly cruel, because rather than being punished for those actions has grown up being indulged. The way Dany's character is being protrayed makes perfect sense.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 4:18 AM on August 29 [8 favorites]


He said this wasn't the end for his brother and that the mountain knew he was coming for him. Who is coming for the mountain? Since The Hound has visions now, I assume this is something meaningful.

The Lord of Light. Via the Hound.
posted by hamandcheese at 4:19 AM on August 29


Any chance mutual-longing-but-lack-of-chemistry thing with Jon and Dany is a depiction of the Westeros Westermarck effect? They might be susceptible (in myth) because they are heroes and the Lannister siblings were, at their points of peak passion, evil.
posted by carmicha at 6:00 AM on August 29


my expectations for the final six episodes are set very, very, very low.

what, the utter incoherence and irrelevance of the last 1500 pages by grrm didn't do it for you
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:09 AM on August 29 [1 favorite]


Nope, different actor. The wig was identical though.

Yeah, I really wished they'd shaken things up with the hair design, there. Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship is supposed to be mythically romantic (and obviously, tragically misunderstood). Nothing says "romance" like dressing up the dude to look like an evil power-hungry crazy sadistic and now-dead former character.
posted by torticat at 6:17 AM on August 29 [4 favorites]


That fur coat in King's Landing sure was wrong.

Winter is here. We saw snow falling as Jaime left King's Landing.
posted by explosion at 6:19 AM on August 29 [2 favorites]


...but of course I guess it makes sense if they were really trying to play up the auntie/nephew angle with Danaerys and Jon, which it seems they were.
posted by torticat at 6:19 AM on August 29 [2 favorites]


Lili Loofbourow at The Week: Why Game of Thrones has become so incoherent

homunculous, thanks for this link. Good reviews.
posted by torticat at 6:21 AM on August 29 [4 favorites]


At the beginning the show loved punishing people for imperfect beliefs/actions and now we're on the other end where almost no actions have consequences.

Also, anyone remember the dropped plot point about the dragons killing that young girl back on Essos? Likely as not the dragons won't survive, but maybe that's why the Targs were keeping their dragons confined.
posted by ersatz at 6:43 AM on August 29 [6 favorites]


"not weirdo silver hair like Danaerys's and Viserys's wigs"

speaking of which our HBO stream had a few fits and starts (as always) and during one of them Cersei stepped towards ... Jaime I think? and said, "That s
[BUFFERING]
me, out loud: "that silver-haired bitch"
my wife: "what?"
[END BUFFERING]
ilver-haired bitch"

so apparently that was my qualifying exam for GoT writers' pool and I am now entered into the semi-finals.
posted by komara at 6:57 AM on August 29 [20 favorites]


Re Tyrion skulking around in the hold of the ship--could it be that he fears another heir? He already just found out the mind-breaking news that Cersei is pregnant and plans to do everything possible to secure the Iron Throne for her baby. Maybe he worries that IF Danaerys were to get pregnant, it would just mean a future for Westeros of more of the same (i.e. families laying waste to other families to protect primogeniture)?

A couple episodes ago he mentioned to Danaerys that there are other ways of choosing a successor, as demonstrated by the Iron Islands and the Nights Watch. Though neither of those cultures has exactly perfected democracy (ha), they are closer to it than all the shit that goes down in Kings Landing.

There has already been some tension in the storytelling about why exactly Danaerys should rule--because it is her right (her view)?--or because she was chosen (Missandei's view e.g.)? In the finale Tyrion tells Cersei that he believes in Danaerys because he thinks she will make the world a better place (this is closer, in fact, to Missandei's POV).

Also in the scene with Cersei, she accuses him of wanting Jon Snow to submit to Danaerys. He replies, "mm. Not like this." Which I think is a bit ambiguous. It could mean "not in a way that sabotaged our negotiations with you." Or it could mean "not in a way that sets up another goddamn dynasty."
posted by torticat at 7:04 AM on August 29 [1 favorite]


Variety on the show's extraordinary upward ratings climb from season to season:

‘Game of Thrones’ Season 7 Finale Draws Record 16.5 Million Viewers

Also, Maureen Ryan captures Sansa/Arya well in her review:

What if the rivalry between Arya (Maisie Williams) and Sansa (Sophie Turner) had better conveyed their conflicts and disagreements, and had also contained the fake-out of Littlefinger (Aiden Gillen), but delivered in a way that did not make viewers feel they’d been cheated out of thoughtful character development?

What was real and what wasn’t in the war between the Stark sisters? Who knows?

posted by mediareport at 7:23 AM on August 29 [4 favorites]


Did the use of Light of the Seven in the score thrill and then disappoint anyone else? The use of that song in Season 6's finale was so unbelievable powerful. When they started to splice it into the music during scenes with Cersei it immediately triggered terror and excitement in me to see what horrifying plan she was going to hatch. But nothing ever came of it. I felt like the music was some sort of Chekhov's gun that they teased me with.
posted by jermsplan at 8:14 AM on August 29 [1 favorite]


It would have loved to see Sansa and Arya working together against Baelish, even as he plots against, with several scenes of just the three of them together, going back and forth verbally as they subtly plot, trying to get the better of each other.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:15 AM on August 29 [1 favorite]


Make it likeArya and Baelish battling to win Sansa's trust. Baelish can still hide Sansa's note, Arya still find, etc etc, but much better viewing
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:17 AM on August 29


Am I the only one who saw Arya hand the dagger to Sansa at the end of the "threatening" scene?

Like, it seems like a lot of people took that scene to be "Arya is showing how much of a danger she is to Sansa," and here I am being all, "Arya is laying bare exactly what/who she is to Sansa, and restating her pledge of fealty."

Yeah, it took Sansa a little while to get it, but I thought the show made it clear that Arya and Sansa were on the same page (and team) by the end of episode 6.
posted by explosion at 9:00 AM on August 29 [16 favorites]


I totally agree, explosion. I thought that was clear and that it was definitely clear both during the sentencing of Littlefinger and then in the sisters' discussion afterwards that they had planned it together.

The cheat (IMO) was Sansa's sending Brienne away. There's misdirection, and then there's cheating, and I felt that was a cheat. Brienne wasn't going to get in the way of the Littlefinger plan. And even though it may have been true that Sansa required representation in KL, and that to go herself would have been unsafe, the peremptory way she dismissed Brienne was uncalled for by anything in the plot or in either of their characters. Brienne's chief fear as far as Sansa's safety was concerned was Littlefinger, and Sansa could have just TOLD her that she didn't trust him either and/or that he was about to be dispatched in any case.
posted by torticat at 9:58 AM on August 29 [4 favorites]


Also, anyone remember the dropped plot point about the dragons killing that young girl back on Essos? Likely as not the dragons won't survive, but maybe that's why the Targs were keeping their dragons confined.

Didn't Tyrion explicitly call that out while they were walking to the pit? Something about how dragons are unruly beasts, they think all livestock and children are for them.
posted by rewil at 10:01 AM on August 29 [2 favorites]


Another dropped dragon plot point: remember Bran's vision from season 4, which included a dragon's shadow passing over King's Landing? Ever since that scene I've been waiting for the scene in which the people of King's Landing look up in wonder and awe as Dany and Drogon fly over King's Landing. That would have been great! Well, this was the episode to finally pay that off and they didn't bother. I'm not the only one who noticed: this is from a review I posted in the book thread (it has some book spoilers):
Also, like, shouldn’t we have gotten the small folk reacting to the fact that a FUCKING DRAGON flew over Kings Landing? That’s huge and they certainly couldn’t miss it. Creating a sense of wonder around this event and this meetup, and to start spreading news of Dany’s return to Westeros on a smaller scale, would have been really nice additions to worldbulding, but unfortunately that ship has sailed and it is now the goal to make everything as hollow as could be.
I guess we might still get that payoff next season if/when Dany returns to King's Landing, assuming KL hasn't been destroyed already. Dany also had a vision (in The House of the Undying) which included the Red Keep, shattered and covered in snow, so they should pay that off too. I hope they're not in such a hurry that they forget.
posted by homunculus at 10:59 AM on August 29 [2 favorites]


Theon fight scene: I actually enjoyed the first half of it, because my interpretation was that being tortured had basically given him massive endurance powers. So once he found his courage, he was going "dude, nothing you can dish out even comes close to what I've already survived, BRING IT."

Even the crotch kick could have just been a little laugh moment, had they not immediately followed it up with ten more ineffectual crotch kicks, HEY LOOK HEY LOOK DID YOU MISS IT, EVERYTHING ON THIS SHOW IS PENISES.

I've gotten so sick of Theon and how the showrunners keep shoving Yara offstage to give him more time to show off his noble angsty manpain. He can be an interesting character, but not nearly interesting enough to fill all the time D&D give him.
posted by Alioth at 11:24 AM on August 29 [11 favorites]




tyrion: it's not the dragons that are the problem, you two just need to bone
davos: *shudders horribly whilst panicking*
daenerys: how dare you tyrion lannister i am yOUR SUPERIOR OFFICER
posted by poffin boffin at 11:50 AM on August 29 [5 favorites]


Even the crotch kick could have just been a little laugh moment, had they not immediately followed it up with ten more ineffectual crotch kicks, HEY LOOK HEY LOOK DID YOU MISS IT, EVERYTHING ON THIS SHOW IS PENISES.

I kinda liked the way that called back to the opening scene with Jaime and Bronn looking at the Unsullied. Apparently I am a 12-year-old boy.

Regarding Theon, I'm hoping the Ironborn rescue Yara and then she takes charge again (which in an internally-consistent universe she surely would, but hey, like you say everything is penises so...)
posted by Pink Frost at 12:20 PM on August 29 [3 favorites]


Game of Thrones has become a CW show (Analee Newitz for Ars Technica) -- That’s not necessarily a bad thing, if you don’t mind slaloming around plotholes.
Call it the CW effect. Watching Game of Thrones now feels like mainlining a bunch of CW shows like Arrow or Vampire Diaries—or even, sometimes, Jane the Virgin. The pacing is so fast that there are multiple reversals of fortune in one episode, and people go from "hey so we are kind of friends" to "we are totally boinking" in 40 minutes. I should say that I love a lot of CW shows, and I'm definitely not opposed to fast pacing. But part of Game of Thrones' appeal was a stately, complex layering of circumstances that gave us a sense of the tragic loss so many characters have suffered. So this season's choices felt like stylistic whiplash.

At times, season 7 felt like one of those montages you get during the credits to a movie, when you see rapid-fire snippets of what everybody did after the action was over: The Night King got his groove back with a cool blue dragon (who inexplicably does not have a frost breath weapon)! Daenerys and Jon aka Aegon finally got together! Littlefinger was brought up on charges of betrayal and paid the ultimate price! The Hound is still messing things up in a lovable way! Bran became an ultra wizard! And so forth. Except usually there is some kind of resolution before you get the snapshots of "life after the story ends."

That said, there are good reasons why season 7 had to move at breakneck speed. There was so much to resolve that the action was bound to feel a little pat and cheesy. I don't think any of us would have been satisfied with a more thoughtfully paced conclusion that dealt with the White Walkers while leaving the fate of Westeros ambiguous. So the writers had to cut some corners.
Except in episode 6, it felt less like "cutting corners" as "turning an off-the-cuff elevator pitch for a plot arc into a few scenes in the penultimate episode of the season."

I imagine it went something like this: "So our band of misfits decide, yeah, let's bag us a cold one, so they march into the snow, and then it really starts blowing hard, then woah! AN UNDEAD BEAR! AND IT'S HUGE! Some dudes die, but not our main cast, who head on and find zombies! And they fight, then someone, maybe Jon, kills the head dude, and they all fall down, but they have to have a live one, so, uh, one doesn't fall down, so they grab that guy and um, are attacked by a full squad of baddies? Yeah, and there's the Night King and his crew, rolling hard with a full posse. Except we probably don't have the budget for a full-on battle here, so let's put them on a frozen lake, with an island or something in the center, so our heroes can get to safety on that island. OK, so now they get tired and cold and bored, and the Hound starts throwing little rocks at zombies, who are all standing back because they don't want to fall into the lake. But then something happens, and they're all 'fuck it, let's just rush the bums!' so we do get an epic living vs undead battle. But Dany saves the day with a dragon, um, because Gendry ran back to get a raven sent back. Fuck yeah, this is really coming together. Then BOOM! Dany and the dragons appear, and they're burnin' shit down left and right, but what's this? Night King has one helluva arm! He chucks a spear or something and hits one of the dragons! BAM! Into the lake! So Dany and the guys fly out of there, but for some dumb reason Jon's still on the ground. And that's where Uncle Benjen comes back in! Fuck YEAH! But family reunions are fleeting, so, uh, he sacrifices himself! For Jon! Yeah. That should make up for say a third of an episode for three, maybe even seven episodes, right? Because we can have some long, drawn-out shots of Gendry running through the snow, trying to remember which way he came, and then blend into a segment of the raven being sent south, intercut with scenes of the dudes on the island, trying to survive with their limited rations and dropping morale, maybe some infighting and someone falls into the lake! Oh, and I haven't even gotten to Jon getting time to really get to know Benjen again, before his uncle makes the ultimate sacrifice."

D&D, only half listening: "yeah, that sounds good for about half of the 6th episode, you have the right idea. Just make all that fit into about 30 minutes of screen time. Maybe plan for 20, but we'll shoot long, so we can make it work in post."

Noob writer: "Um, OK?"

D&D: "Great teamwork here! So what's in line for the final episode? The wall falls, right?"
posted by filthy light thief at 12:44 PM on August 29 [5 favorites]


The episode started off pretty well, in terms of getting right to the point, which enabled a lot of what I love about the show, the character interactions.

Compare that to the end, where we know exactly what's going to happen. Mr. Night King has a dragon, so it's obvious that the Wall is coming down. We know why the dead are suddenly at the wall. We know we they stop and wait. We know exactly what Tormound is going to see flying towards them. Our only question was whether it was going to breath fire or ice.

In retrospect, I would have preferred seeing the dragon simply land and walk over to the base of the walk and begin taking it down. Or have him land at the top, lay down some havoc and then start breathing blue fire. Or have it scale the walk and poke holes in it via fire, then fly off and circle around to knock it down with one final fire blast.

I dunno, maybe that would be terrible too, but what I saw was incredibly anti-climatic and dull. Even though it was more deaths than what's socially desired at a Dothraki wedding, it was still exceedingly boring.

It's funny, the wife and I usually watch the episode a second or third time, for little details, but not for the last two episodes. There's not a whole lot of subtleness to enjoy, even with the SHOCKING reveal that Arya and Sansa were sort of working together.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:06 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


As others noted, they touched a few times, but no one pointed out how they almost got intimate last time they were on a boat, but Jon got sleepy or something and decided that their conversation was over.

BTW, filthy light thief--I'm now replying to your comment a second time--I went back and rewatched that scene last night and have to admit it worked really well. Emilia did some incredible face-acting in which you could see her considering the potential with Jon and then realizing that, he being half-alive at the moment, this was not the time to act on it. Then she told him he should rest and walked off very much as if she needed a bit of private time in her cabin.

And Jon was quite good too (and naked Kit shoulders are always a plus). I retract some of my criticism.
posted by torticat at 2:16 PM on August 29


For me, the shocking reveal wasn't that Arya and Sansa were sort of working together. It was that Arya and Sansa AND BRAN were sort of working together. Bran's active involvement in the trial surprised me. I thought it was a nice touch, especially since it didn't overshadow the Arya and Sansa arc. It was just there as a detail. The Stark kids working together to avenge their parents. But the Stark women really leading and controlling the action.

I expected that they were playing Little Finger, but I didn't expect them to lay out his crimes publically, I didn't expect them to execute him on the spot, and I didn't expect Bran's involvement. I found it very satisfying.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:17 PM on August 29 [6 favorites]


I'm trying to remember what I liked about the ep - one thing was the wait for Cersei to show up for the meeting. Everybody paranoid and watching, looking for exits, counting the Lannister guards and making mental notes about which one to kill first if shit went sideways.... THAT was kind of neat, adding a lot of tension to an otherwise flat scene. Watch their eyes through the whole thing.
posted by Mogur at 2:50 PM on August 29 [3 favorites]


I expected that they were playing Little Finger, but I didn't expect them to lay out his crimes publically, I didn't expect them to execute him on the spot, and I didn't expect Bran's involvement. I found it very satisfying.

Yeah, even know nothing that they were going against Baelish, those scenes between Sansa and Arya still feel deeply unsatisfying and ridiculous. I'm glad Sansa recognized that she's a slow learner and that Bran was there to prove the case, and seeing them actively working together to publicly out him was great, but the above mentioned scenes fell flat for me, even after their meaning was pointed out. It weakens the argument that Sansa is brilliant, which I truly want to see to for the character.

Killing Baelish was always going to be satisfying though, lol. Especially with the knife he meant for Bran, who was watching the whole thing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:29 PM on August 29 [1 favorite]


Bran's active involvement in the trial surprised me. I thought it was a nice touch, especially since it didn't overshadow the Arya and Sansa arc. It was just there as a detail.

It was also hilarious in a "courtroom drama" way. Like, my dude, good luck flying your weak-ass false alibis and "but but but"s with OMNISCIENT THREE-EYED RAVEN on the witness stand.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:30 PM on August 29 [3 favorites]


Having the 3 Stark siblings come together in this episode made a nice parallel to the coming apart of the 3 Lannister siblings (although i'm suspicious that we didn't see the end of the Tyrion/Cersei conversation - I'm not convinced Tyrion has completely abandoned all loyalty to his family, as awful as Cersei has been).
posted by aiglet at 3:32 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


Legitimate or not, Jon should never have been Jon Sand. Everyone knew he was born in the south during the rebellion, so if naming was that strict he'd already be Jon Rivers or Jon Storm etc.

That fur coat in King's Landing sure was wrong.

Jon Rivers: Fashion Police says "I'm sorry - but fur is it this winter. This whole 'black is the new black' thing, however, should be murdered faster than a Baratheon Bastard.
posted by Sparx at 3:43 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


(although i'm suspicious that we didn't see the end of the Tyrion/Cersei conversation - I'm not convinced Tyrion has completely abandoned all loyalty to his family, as awful as Cersei has been).

From the article I linked above:
Sadly — and this is why I maintain that the show hasn't pulled up from its nosedive — the episode's reliance on black boxes that enable fun but improbable plot twists meant the scene was undercut in retrospect. To clarify: The crucial part of that scene — the part where Tyrion says whatever he presumably said to convince Cersei to join the fight, and she convinced him she'd agreed — was missing.

One sympathizes, because it's an almost impossible scene to write. How would Cersei's concession have gone? How can you write it without Tyrion seeming, well, stupid? "Cersei, you must care about your unborn child! I know you do. So do I. Join this fight and build a better world!" "You have appealed to my mother's heart! I will give more than you ask for and demand nothing in return!" Sorry, but that's just not Cersei, and even Tyrion would know that. I know Tyrion has been retconned into a gullible incompetent this season, with such a poor understanding of his sister that he thought the wight quest would convince her. I appreciate the tragic turn his character has taken, and how his guilt over betraying his family might cloud his judgment. I still don't believe that even dumbed-down Tyrion would fall for any version of Cersei's concessions here. Game of Thrones is rife with Conversations That Must Have Happened in order for events to make sense, but this particular one is about as plausible as Jon Snow correctly reading the room. It's about as believable as a scene that starts with Sam and Bran bringing the Septon's journal to Cersei and ends with her nodding sadly and handing Jon Snow the crown.

Here's why that's a problem: It's so hard to imagine this Conversation That Must Have Happened that some fans have started coming up with more plausible theories for Conversations That Must Have Happened More: Maybe Tyrion secretly struck a deal with Cersei to make her child the heir to Daenerys' throne! Maybe Tyrion is lamenting his role in ending the Lannisters — more on his tragedy here — and sees this as a way to make amends. Maybe he's reverted to the Lannisters entirely and is ready to kill Daenerys — hence his creeping behind the staircase!

I don't believe any of that. I suspect Tyrion's hangdog loyalty to Daenerys is real because I trust that a well-written show would give me a sign or two if it wasn't. (Yes, Tyrion has expressed some misgivings about the burning of the Tarlys, but he's surely noticed that Daenerys has otherwise followed every plan he's made to the letter — the Casterly Rock siege, the wight quest, letting him go alone to talk to Cersei — despite the fact that they've all ended disastrously.)

On the other hand, the show is so untrustworthy at this point that it might easily be withholding crucial information from us in order to "surprise" viewers with the reveal later. That is, after all, what it did with the Arya and Sansa storyline that resulted in Petyr Baelish's death. We saw the Stark girls at each other's throats last week — in private, so they couldn't possibly have been performing their dysfunction for Littlefinger. But the chilly, almost murderous distance the sisters had developed over two episodes somehow thawed.

How? During a Conversation That Must Have Happened that we — who have been spent years waiting for and tracking this relationship — have the privilege of guessing at.

Why? So we can be as stunned as Petyr Baelish when he's outfoxed.

Don't get me wrong: It's gratifying to see a disconcerted Baelish pleading for his life, and there's malicious symmetry to Sansa quoting him back to himself. But Baelish getting executed (however satisfying that was) is not the story. How Arya and Sansa and Bran stopped being dysfunctional weirdos and came back together to defeat him is the story. And it got skipped. It was withheld. It's a black box.
posted by homunculus at 3:55 PM on August 29 [8 favorites]


Nobody needs to worry about Tormund! He whipped out his crystal ball and teleported to a Super 8 for some waffles.
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:37 PM on August 29 [4 favorites]


What I want to know is, how big is the land beyond the Wall? Because the frost army has been marching south since S01E01 and it's been what, I guess about three years have gone by in-universe since the series began?
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:58 PM on August 29 [1 favorite]


However on reflection--we are sure she said Aegon, I suppose? - torticat

At this point in the episode my room mate turned to me and said, "Jon's real name is Eggo???"

And so it ever shall be. Long live King Consort Eggo Targaryen!
posted by invincible summer at 5:14 PM on August 29 [14 favorites]


And so it ever shall be. Long live King Consort Eggo Targaryen!

No way. Aerys --> Rhaegar --> Eggo is the direct patrilineal line of succession. It's King Eggo and Queen Consort Dragon-Mom.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:20 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


. . . and that means the only way Dany is legitimately queen is if Eggo dies without issue. [sinister laugh]

Or if she and Jon have Mad Prince That Was Promised and then Jon croaks, Dany ends up as Queen Mother/Regent, which would make her another Cersei to another crazy-ass inbred Joffrey.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:24 PM on August 29 [1 favorite]


I'm not convinced Tyrion has completely abandoned all loyalty to his family, as awful as Cersei has been

There's a part of me that thinks Tyrion might have promised Cersei that if Danerys wins, he'd get Danerys to name Cersei's last kid her heir, and that Tyrion is therefore worried about what happens if Danerys has a biological child with Jon. But who even knows, with the way this show is run?
posted by joyceanmachine at 5:24 PM on August 29 [9 favorites]


Huh, that's actually a pretty plausible.

Of course, all this could b e solved by someone asking Tyrion "Hey, what'd you say to Cersei change her mind?"

Which would probably create a whole new set of problems.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:33 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


I mean, Jon could just abdicate and let Dany be queen if he wanted. Lots of ways they could go with this.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:29 PM on August 29


If anyone wouldn't give a shit about being on the Iron Throne, it's probably Jon.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:42 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


One small thing that stood out to me from this episode -- and given the current writing, directing, and editing, I can't be sure if it was intentional or not -- but it seemed like Undeadish Gregor reacted more slowly and less tactically to the threat of the wight than he typically does to human threats to Cersei.

He's killed people who have merely said bad things about her in his presence. He frequently walks to stand in front of her when people approach her menacingly.

With the wight, though, he remained at her side and only kind of half-drew his sword even when it was only about a foot away and straining to get at her. The humans -- eg Jaime -- are understandably frozen in terror and surprise when the thing makes a beeline for Cersei. But why would Undeadish Gregor be frozen in terror and indecision?

Again, if the writing, directing and editing were better, I'd assume this was the same kind of deal as Spider-Man's spider sense not reacting to Venom and Carnage -- ie the "feel" of the other being is so similar and familiar, it doesn't register as a threat until it's completely obvious -- and that it would factor into a future scene. But who knows now?
posted by lord_wolf at 6:47 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


Well and he did make a big deal about promises and keeping his oaths and such, and technically he swore to follow Dany. Of course, that was minus knowing who he is, but fits where his character is well enough.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:49 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


I mean, I don't think Jon-Eggo will give a shit and would happily hand over a crown to pretty much anyone, let alone someone who sexes him up. How Daenerys will react to finding out she's not the rightful heir, that there's someone not "foreign" like her and more acceptable to the Westerosi people with a more legitimate claim (whether he uses it or not), who would always be there next to her as a reminder that it wasn't really her throne? Would she be OK with that? Would she regard him as competition or a potential rival? Her only direct experience of fellow Targaryens is Viserys, after all, and she has her despotic moments.

Even without knowing Jon's her nephew, that could be a certain amount of what worries Tyrion -- when monarchs date and one of them has been known to be pretty fucking ruthless at times, things may not end so well. Of course, neither does literally any other element of his life or society, so what's the dif?
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:49 PM on August 29 [1 favorite]


ZombieMountain's (lack of) reaction - have we seen him duel yet? Maybe he's just zombie slow now? and/or being zombie slow also relates to his thought processes and he's still trying to figure out what Sandor was trying to tell him.

Alternative excuse could be that he sees Sandor holding the chain holding the wight back and knows that its not a real threat.

Alt-alternative excuse could be that he doesn't really give a crap and only responds to commands (also, wight was not on the list of primary kill targets that Cersei dictated to him) and he's personally armoured well enough that a single wight isn't a threat.

BTW, I loved Lena Headey's trying to scramble backwards through her chair, especially the look on her face. I wonder what kind of stand-in (if any) was used for filming the scene, with the wight being added in post.
posted by porpoise at 8:01 PM on August 29 [1 favorite]


Cersei was so freaked out by the wight that she almost spoke a notch above sotto voce.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:10 PM on August 29 [1 favorite]


At this point, EggoJon is The Hero - if GRRM was true to being a violator of tropes, Jon's done for and won't be around to sit on the Iron Throne even if he wanted to, but rather a Dany going mad and ascending the throne and pulling a Galadriel-with-the-One-Ring "All shall love me and despair" scenario.

BTW, in that scenario, Jon doesn't even die as a sacrifice for a greater good, but rather during a "you know nothing" fuckup. C'mon, that's got to be a great setup; Tormund eulogizing Jon with, "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

As for Daenerys - she had that stillborn deformed child because the Dothraki witch did something to the fetus to power "resurrecting" Kal Drogo (similar to Melisandre using royal blood/sacrifice to power her magic). The witch even warned her of the sacrifice Dany needed to make and the limitations of the resurrection (right?). What other evidence does Dany have that she's sterile? iirc, she hasn't even boned anyone since?

If anything, it's Jon that might/should be shooting blanks. He's technically dead and that sounds like a much better reason to be sterile.

Beric Dondarrion is described as not having flowing blood (does Jon? Jon certainly has these hideous non-healing-looking scars) and poor wound healing, and GRRM acknowledges that Beric is indeed "dead," just the walking, talking, fighting kind of dead.

I don't feel that Tyrion promising Cersei that if Dany wins, that he'd get her to name Cersei's unborn child heir. I think that he's worried about succession is that if Dany wins, there's going to be chaos when she passes away (especially if shortly after winning).

He is aware of Gendry, though, (right?) and that might be whom Tyrion wants Dany to name as heir. Early and unambiguously. But why would Dany agree to that (well Gendry is a good person, Dany might get the chance to further groom him, Gendry might get the chance to gain fame/respect through strength of arms)?

Doesn't explain how he got Cersei to lie to him (Tyrion) about helping out against the WW in the North. Telling her that he'd keep Jon neutral and stay in the North might be it. Can't see him promising to betray (and kill) Dany. "I can convince Dany to stay in the North with Jon" might work.

Tyrion looking forlorn during Jon+Dany may very well just be "Hey, that's my cabin. Eww!" and maybe wheels in his head grinding away thinking about how if Jon and Dany hooked up and they won, Jon could sire heirs (as far as Tyrion knows) but would be bonded to Dany (assuming her infertility, which Tyrion is under the assumption of) and not have to opportunity to sire legitimate heirs until Jon no longer can due to age.

Or or it could be him contemplating the deal he made with Cersei - Tyrion acknowledges the threat of the WW, but afterwards? If dealing with the WW needs Cersei's help, then... goodbye friends, it's for the greater good...? Consistent with violating tropes; Tyrion taking the concept of nobility into (asshole libertarian-ish) extremes.

But then, Littlefinger getting it in the neck is bog standard comeuppance.
posted by porpoise at 8:36 PM on August 29


iirc, she hasn't even boned anyone since?

Oh Daario, how quickly they forget!
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:15 PM on August 29 [8 favorites]


What if the deal between Tyrion and Cersei involved a marriage?

Maybe a marriage between Jon and Cersei or Jaime and Dany or something? Tyrion did look forelorn when he was creeping around, and maybe that was empathy because he already knew the two lovers were doomed even on their first night together.

This is completely wild, but maybe Cersei offered to cooperate if Tyrion could get Dany to marry him -- a kind of Beauty & the Beast "curse"?

Or maybe Cersei and Tyrion betrothed Cersei's fetus to somebody. I mean, that's weird even for these people, but.
posted by rue72 at 9:52 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


Thinking about it a little more, if Tyrion and Cersei brokered a marriage alliance, my money would be on it being for Jaime to marry Dany and then take Jaime and Cersei's child as their heir.
posted by rue72 at 10:00 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


> That wine bit was pretty stupid. Medievalish ladies would have totally been drinking during pregnancy.

RIGHT?!?!?!?!!??!??!?!!!??
posted by desuetude at 10:05 PM on August 29 [1 favorite]


Not to mention that Cersei is more or less an alcoholic. Tyrion's got his problems with drinking, too. Guess they get it from their dad's dad. Probably didn't do much to endear either of them to Tywin, either!
posted by rue72 at 10:15 PM on August 29


The cheat (IMO) was Sansa's sending Brienne away. There's misdirection, and then there's cheating, and I felt that was a cheat. Brienne wasn't going to get in the way of the Littlefinger plan. And even though it may have been true that Sansa required representation in KL, and that to go herself would have been unsafe, the peremptory way she dismissed Brienne was uncalled for by anything in the plot or in either of their characters. Brienne's chief fear as far as Sansa's safety was concerned was Littlefinger, and Sansa could have just TOLD her that she didn't trust him either and/or that he was about to be dispatched in any case.

Since we're just speculating about the contents of a black box that the writers will never bother to open for us, I'll note that Sansa didn't send Brienne away until just after the conversation with Littlefinger where he suggested that she turn to Brienne to help deal with Arya.

If you're Sansa, and you've truly learned everything from Littlefinger, including the lesson your dad Ned never did learn, which is not to 100% trust anyone no matter how helpful they have been to you in the past, and you're already deep into assuming the worst from everything out of Littlefinger's mouth, having him talk up Brienne and push you towards her might reasonably make you suspect that somehow Littlefinger has flipped Brienne's loyalty, or has some means of leverage or control over her. If that's the case, you need to get her out of the way so you can be 100% certain that the trial goes off without a hitch (y'know, once you've won over the Vale's knights in a backroom deal [not pictured]), and you won't risk telling Brienne the real reason you're sending her away if there's even a tiny chance that Brienne will relay that information back to Littlefinger.

Now as viewers, I know and you know that Brienne of Tarth is the only person in Westeros more bound to honor and loyalty and oaths of fealty than even Ned Stark or Jon Snow (well....normally, anyways; I guess up-close wights are a special circumstance) but at least in retrospect, I can easily imagine Sansa assuming the worst.
posted by mstokes650 at 10:22 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


Oh Daario, how quickly they forget!

The orphans forgot him too!! I don't get it; I quite like him, myself.
posted by torticat at 11:05 PM on August 29 [2 favorites]


I'm still bothered by this season's finale. Was the writing as shoddy in the previous seasons but I just didn't notice it, or did it really go downhill so quickly now when they don't have the books to lean on?

As others already pointed out:
- Jon & Onion Knight going for dragonglass and then not bringing back any;
- or even if they did bring some, nobody using it on their expedition north of the wall;
- Uncle Benjen appearing out of nowhere, cutting through hordes of undead without a scratch just to save Jon and then die among the hordes;
- White Walkers being conveniently equipped with chains in the middle of frozen nowhere to drag the dragon out of water;
- completely glossing over any time or distance constraints (how did the Dothraki travel to the Reach? or they and Unsullied to King's Landing?)

Yeah, sure, the dragons look nice, but for a 10mil/episode budget, couldn't the writers give just a leeeettle bit more effort? Or are they so sick of the whole project by now that they can't be arsed to even try?
posted by gakiko at 12:08 AM on August 30 [3 favorites]


Wasn't that stuff in the penultimate episode, not the season finale? I don't think anyone, including me, has bothered to try to defend the pace or timeline of that episode. It's just craziness.

(They did use dragonglass on their expedition though. A bunch of them are carrying dragonglass weapons.)
posted by Justinian at 12:14 AM on August 30


Also, anyone remember the dropped plot point about the dragons killing that young girl back on Essos? Likely as not the dragons won't survive, but maybe that's why the Targs were keeping their dragons confined.

>Didn't Tyrion explicitly call that out while they were walking to the pit? Something about how dragons are unruly beasts, they think all livestock and children are for them.


When they were waiting at the pit and Daenerys gave to Jon the dragon fossil, she said something along the lines of the captive dragons diminishing and they (Targaryens) with them. As far as I can tell, the unspoken resolution of that arc was that dragons confer power to Daenerys, so let's overlook the future deaths of random smallfolk.
posted by ersatz at 12:22 AM on August 30 [1 favorite]


Through a string of links somewhere else on the web I just ended up watching a five minute scene from the third episode of the series. It really is amazing how much of a transformation the show has undergone. The set isn't sparse exactly (they've always had great design and such) but really it's just five minutes of Mark Addy's Robert talking to Barristan and Jaime. Without spectacle or action or pageantry. What a great scene.

There's a lot more spectacle now to go with all the money the show has, but I miss these scenes. The talking bits have always been the best parts. It's why, for example, the quick scene with Brienne and the Hound was so fun, or Brienne and Arya earlier in the season. I hope the final season makes some room for scenes like this but it doesn't seem like it will, does it?

I know people tend to say it's because we're past the books but that explanation doesn't work; the dialogue in the scene with Robert et al is not lifted from the books so far as I am aware, and the episode was written by Benioff & Weiss. The much maligned episode 6 of this season... was also written by Benioff & Weiss. So it's obviously a deliberate decision about what to focus on. Maybe sometimes getting all the money you could ever want for your show is a curse artistically.
posted by Justinian at 12:30 AM on August 30 [8 favorites]


Wasn't that stuff in the penultimate episode

Ah, yes, now I found the discussion about the previous episode. Okay, nice to know the show is now officially considered to have jumped the shark. I'm still looking forward to the final season, but now I'll feel free to mourn what it could have been.

(I'm still wondering whether the reason is that there's no more book content or just writers getting very lazy.)
posted by gakiko at 12:32 AM on August 30 [1 favorite]


Isn't whatever deal Tyrion and Cersei made going to be moot when Jamie shows up and tells them "Yeah she was full of shit, we're on our own against the Night King."?

(Although this doesn't stop Cersei from later revealing that he did offer her some sort of deal even if she had no intention of keeping it, making Dany consider if it's a betrayal worth a burning.)
posted by like_neon at 2:23 AM on August 30


Issues that I'm looking forward to seeing addressed:

- The North's reaction to Jon's heritage. They were unhappy with the fact that he has bent the knee to a Targaryan, but how will they feel once they realise that he is a Targaryan too? They can either be happy because it's still Jon and he's now King of Westeros and not just the north, or nurse a grudge against him for bending the knee to a foreigner. I expect a speech from Jon, Sansa or Lyanna Mormont to get them back in line. Or they will be interrupted by white walkers attacking Winterfell.

- The return of Melisandre given her conversation with Varys of her prophesy that she would die in Westeros. What will be interesting is her reaction to Dany and/or the baby (the Jon/Dany baby is a given at this point, right?). In general I want more Varys, we hardly got any spider web weaving from him this season and way too much Littlefinger.

- Speaking of Daario above, yeah where is he? What is going on over in Mereen. This has got to be a factor with the Golden Company from Essos. I expect another sea battle with Sea Ramsey.

- Jamie/Bran reunion. I think the way it's going to go down is that Bran won't say anything about Jamie's murder attempt. Jamie will be super confused and confront him and ask why he's not outing him. And then Bran will be all like, "I'm no longer Bran. I'm the three eyed raven! Caw caw motherflapper!"

I hope all my expectations are upended or else it would make a very predictable final season.
posted by like_neon at 2:52 AM on August 30 [2 favorites]


What is going on over in Mereen.

Pretty sure those regions stopped being of any interest to the producers as soon as the white lady left.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:50 AM on August 30 [10 favorites]


it's just five minutes of Mark Addy's Robert talking to Barristan and Jaime. Without spectacle or action or pageantry

on the one hand, yeah, i miss that, and nothing will ever come up to fucking charles dance and diana riggs engage in the westerosi version of basketball court shit-talking

on the other hand, HOLY SHIT I AM SO GLAD WE HAVE PERMANENTLY LEFT BEHIND GRATUITOUS SEXPOSITION REMEMBER WHEN THEY FELT LIKE THEY HAD TO SPICE UP EXPO DUMPS BY HAVING SOME LADY BE NAKED DIREWOLVES ARE EXPENSIVE TITS ARE CHEAP I REMEMBER

If you're Sansa, and you've truly learned everything from Littlefinger, including the lesson your dad Ned never did learn, which is not to 100% trust anyone no matter how helpful they have been to you in the past

Yeah, that's how I read that scene once we had the reveal about Sansa drawing Littlefinger on. Another interpretation is that of all the characters left on the show, Brienne is probably the one who reminds Sansa the most of her dad. And who did Littlefinger play like a fucking harp? Part of leadership means taking to account not just the strengths, but accurately assessing and dealing with the weaknesses of the people you lead.

Sansa has that down. There are questions, to me, about whether Dany does.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:23 AM on August 30 [5 favorites]


HOLY SHIT I AM SO GLAD WE HAVE PERMANENTLY LEFT BEHIND GRATUITOUS SEXPOSITION

Yeah, that's fucking real. But I also feel like they've left behind any pretense of caring about the writing and dialogue.

Actually, this is a theory I've had for a while - so, D&D had to prove to GRRM that they 'really understood' the characters in order to be able to adapt the books, right? And supposedly, how they did that was answering his question: who is Jon Snow's mother? But it's also worth noting that they got the permission after the internet age. What if they just fucking googled it, took someone's well written theory, and threw it on? And then when they were figuring out characterization, they had books and books to build on. So they could figure out how Cersei and Robert feel about each other, because we have half a book full of it, and give us that great wine scene. Or figure out how the Queen of Thorns feels about things.

But because we're past the books and they don't fundamentally understand the characters enough, they don't understand how the characters would react to new things, and that's why we have this super fucking jerky characterization.
posted by corb at 6:28 AM on August 30 [10 favorites]


I hope all my expectations are upended or else it would make a very predictable final season.

Everything but "Caw caw motherflapper!" Because that would be awesome and I truly hope it comes out of Bran's mouth.
posted by asperity at 6:31 AM on August 30 [6 favorites]


The North's reaction to Jon's heritage

I expect that Jon "I cannot tell a lie" Targaryen will abdicate as King in the North, even if (or perhaps especially if) everyone else decides that they'll overlook it and he should stay on. Sansa will become Queen, and we'll have the War of Three Queens as a parallel of the War of Five Kings.
posted by Zonker at 6:59 AM on August 30 [2 favorites]


I think it's interesting, too, to look at the upside/downside calculation for Sansa in sending Brienne away.

What's the upside of having Brienne around? Physical protection from threats. Where could those threats come from? The Knights of the Vale or other bannerdudes turning against her, or Arya turning against her, or a third party appears. If it's the Knights of the Vale, will Brienne be able to do much, as badass as she is? Even if she could, it would probably mean her death. If it's Arya, we know that it's a near match-up, but that Arya probably wins at the end. If it's a third party rogue assassin -- Brienne probably has an edge there, but it's also the least likely. Plus, Sansa isn't walking around with Brienne all the time as a guardian (which is one of the things that annoys me about the show, to be honest, like Sansa's TOTAL LACK OF AN ENTOURAGE or ladies in waiting).

The downside of having Brienne around is that it leaves an additional piece in Littlefinger's hands, a piece that has at least a decent chance of killing Arya in an open fight. And the longer she lets Littlefinger fester, the greater the likelihood that he manages to turn the sisters agianst each other in a way that means Brienne is dead on the floor.

In fact, Sansa correctly determines:

1. The odds of Littlefinger managing to use Brienne as a weapon against Arya are better than the odds of somebody trying to murder Sansa.

2. The danger to Sansa is not yet physical, but might become so with the passage of time and Littlefinger actively working to undermine her relationship with Arya and whatever shit he might be doing with the Knights of Vale/everyone else in Winterfell.

3. Sansa's relationship with Arya is salvageable if Arya realizes that they're pulling in the same direction.

Sending Brienne away solves 1. Having Arya kill Littlefinger solves 2 and 3. Having it happen in open court, after he fails to (convincingly) deny that he killed Jon Arryn and Lysa Arryn to bring about the death of Robert Baratheon solves her additional problem of keeping the Knights of the Vale around.

(And I mean, I definitely know the show put this much thought into it, and I wish Sansa's speech had more meat and detail and emotional oomph because this is SUCH A FUCKING MOMENT, but we're at the end of S7, things is what they is, and this kind of deep wank analysis is way more fun for me than dropping into the thread with a one-liner about how the show sucks.)

tl;dr: murder is one of Arya's love languages.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:04 AM on August 30 [9 favorites]


Ok can we do future spoilers in this thread, in the first episode Samwell and Bran get a core group of maesterminds together in a pre-credits scene, they work out some Westeros-magic-tech and airdrop a small group of dragon glass weaponized heroes wearing giant capes that act like magical parachutes behind the lines killing the primary zombie king thus dissolving all the zombie hoards. But Jon and the dragons are killed and Daenerys is lost in the wilderness alone far far in the north. Cut to Cersei having a long rambling chat with Jaime in chains, at the close of the episode Jamie shucks off his chains, removes his face reveling Ayra who finally stabs Cersei and dashes into a secret tunnel just as the Mountain realizes he's using zombie magik and dissolves and shatters. The rest of the season is Tryion and Varys instituting a deep winter democracy. Everyone is cold but votes.
posted by sammyo at 7:30 AM on August 30 [5 favorites]


Am I the only one who thinks that no one but Sansa knew what was going to really go down at the trial?

I much prefer the thought that she worked it all out by herself, didn't tell anyone her plan, but trusted that the truth of Littlefinger's crimes would bring everyone in the room on side.
posted by jonnyploy at 7:35 AM on August 30 [4 favorites]


#timetruther

Rewatching the whole series ...

Tyrion: "Give this drawing to your saddler and Bran will be able to ride. Start with a yearling so the horse can grow into it and him."

Next episode: Bran shows up on an at least three year old horse.
posted by tilde at 7:52 AM on August 30 [4 favorites]


As others already pointed out:
- Jon & Onion Knight going for dragonglass and then not bringing back any;
- or even if they did bring some, nobody using it on their expedition north of the wall;


I noticed that Jorah had two dragonglass daggers on the expedition, but apparently there were other dragonglass weapons I missed.

[link contains possible explanation for giant chains, too]
posted by zakur at 8:37 AM on August 30 [3 favorites]


Am I the only one who thinks that no one but Sansa knew what was going to really go down at the trial?

seconded. not counting bran, of course. although maybe she clued the Vale in, maybe not, maybe they were just tired of his shit
posted by eustatic at 8:48 AM on August 30 [1 favorite]


Am I the only one who thinks that no one but Sansa knew what was going to really go down at the trial?

Bran knew. Pretty sure Lord Royce, General of the Vale troops knew.

There's no reason for only Sansa to know. You'd think that Arya would, I dunno, talk to her sister, something like "Hey, what's up with Baelish hanging around? You know he can't be trusted, right?" Then they talk and things are revealed. Because clearly Arya knows everything Sansa went through by the end of the episode, so they talked, but again we never got to see that conversation

Hell, they got a stellar cast here, it would be nice if the creators let them strut their stuff.

Sansa sending her sworn protector AND poderick away was stupid, no matter how you cut it, especially if she's afraid of a physical attack from Arya. Hell, why Baelish is still around if Sansa has Lyssa's murder on him is stupid. She has to know that Lord Royce and the others really don't like him and if given a chance would gladly get rid of him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:51 AM on August 30 [2 favorites]


Bran knew. Pretty sure Lord Royce, General of the Vale troops knew.

I don't think Bran needs to have known. He's pretty weird now, so I can't really see Sansa asking him directly for help. Him piping up at the trial could have just been a bonus.

Not sure it's necessary for Lord Royce to have been clued up either, although out of everyone there he is the most likely to need a heads-up as Sansa had previously lied to him about Lysa's death.
posted by jonnyploy at 9:15 AM on August 30


Not sure it's necessary for Lord Royce to have been clued up either...

If you're going to kill the anointed Lord of the Vale in a room full of Vale troops, it's highly recommended that you give the General of those troops a heads up. Probably the troops too, even if it's a 2 minute warning before they enter they room.

Considering that none of them acted in shock, they knew.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:17 AM on August 30 [6 favorites]


Why no one has offered to teach Sansa some basic fighting skills? What with everyone drilling for the coming invasion and Sansa having access to Brienne, it's an odd thing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:27 AM on August 30


I'm absolutely okay with there being characters that focus on things other than fighting. If the coming invasion breaches the walls of Winterfell Sansa is dead regardless of her fighting skills. It's a waste of her time, at this point. Let her lead.
posted by lydhre at 11:12 AM on August 30 [3 favorites]


on the other hand, HOLY SHIT I AM SO GLAD WE HAVE PERMANENTLY LEFT BEHIND GRATUITOUS SEXPOSITION REMEMBER WHEN THEY FELT LIKE THEY HAD TO SPICE UP EXPO DUMPS BY HAVING SOME LADY BE NAKED

At least we have the awesome term "sexposition" now to remind us of those halcyon days. So there was one good thing that came out of it.
posted by Justinian at 11:19 AM on August 30


Speaking of the actors, I bet they got a kick out of the dragon pit scene. So many reunions from as far back as S1E1/2 and others who have never even been onscreen together.

I KNOW! There was a Vanity Fair cover story from season 2 or 3 with a group shot of a bunch of actors in costume on the cover. The characters were all part of the King's Landing - Winterfell axis, except Danerys. I imagined Emilia Clarke at the photo shoot asking who the hell all these people were who were not in her show.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:38 AM on August 30


Okay, nice to know the show is now officially considered to have jumped the shark.

I believe you meant to say zombie ice-shark.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:02 PM on August 30 [3 favorites]


I think the reason Sansa sent Brienne to King's Landing was just what she said it was: to have Brienne represent her at the Dragonpit Summit. If the summit hadn't happened, I think Brienne would have been in the room during Littlefinger's trial/execution, beaming with pride at Sansa and Arya.
posted by homunculus at 3:12 PM on August 30 [2 favorites]


How many sexposition scenes were there? I just remember the one in Barlish's brothel.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:21 PM on August 30


> As for Daenerys - she had that stillborn deformed child because the Dothraki witch did something to the fetus to power "resurrecting" Kal Drogo

Nitpick: Mirri Maz Duur was Lhazareen, not Dothraki.

He is aware of Gendry, though, (right?) and that might be whom Tyrion wants Dany to name as heir. Early and unambiguously. But why would Dany agree to that (well Gendry is a good person, Dany might get the chance to further groom him, Gendry might get the chance to gain fame/respect through strength of arms)?

I don't think Tyrion knows who Gendry really is. Gendry revealed himself to Jon because of the relationship of their fathers, but otherwise I think he was following Davos's advice and keeping it a secret from everyone else.
posted by homunculus at 3:22 PM on August 30 [1 favorite]


Littlefinger had gone on about how Brienne was sworn to protect both Stark sisters. I thought Sansa sending Brienne away signals to LF that she's making a move on Arya.
posted by emeiji at 6:26 PM on August 30 [1 favorite]


How many sexposition scenes were there? I just remember the one in Barlish's brothel.

There's a really egregious one in either S1 or S2 where Pycelle spends a long, long, long time having sex onscreen with a young woman while narrating his Deep Thoughts about Exposition out loud.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:41 PM on August 30 [2 favorites]


a thing that bugged the shit out of me:

Sansa asks Littlefinger a bunch of questions that he fails to answer. Then Sansa gives Arya a significant look and snickersnack went the vorpal blade. A scene later, a character (Arya?) makes reference to Sansa having "passed sentence" or some such, possibly "pronounced the sentence" when onscreen in the released cut we all just watched *she had done no such thing*. Littlefinger was killed in the middle of a hearing, for Winter's sake. Not that I know a lot about the formalities of lordly trials and inquisitions in Westeros but generally one would think that one would *pronounce* sentence, as in, utter the words "I sentence you to immediate public throatcutting" rather than a significant look to the person initially, possibly still nominally, charged.

I mean, Perry fuckin Mason wouldna stood for this. This is some terrible scripting.
posted by mwhybark at 8:06 PM on August 30 [4 favorites]


Perry fuckin Mason wouldna stood. If he did, we'd know he was really Arya.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:45 PM on August 30 [3 favorites]


Re: whether Bran knew, the actor mentioned in an interview that there was a cut scene where Sansa came to his room and asked for help. Even without that, my feeling was that he was definitely in on it with the two girls.
posted by web-goddess at 10:21 PM on August 30 [5 favorites]


bugged the shit out of me

Agreed. Littlefinger's sentencing/execution wasn't strictly legal. But what's "legal" when "legal" is the execution of authority? Talking about authority is hard and complicated, but Sansa + Arya (+ Brand) = authority Indanorf now.

Status quo! This new thing? Yeah, it's sticking around, so it'll be an old thing and status quo. Now.

Cersei changing things up in KL, why can't/shouldn't the WF kids start their own traditions - if they can keep enforcing them.

re: LF getting his throat slashed by Arya. Yeah, totally. Dumb. Devolving into

Cut cool looking.
posted by porpoise at 10:42 PM on August 30


Re: whether Bran knew, the actor mentioned in an interview that there was a cut scene where Sansa came to his room and asked for help.

Oh man, I really hope we get to see that scene someday.
posted by homunculus at 11:19 PM on August 30


Re: whether Bran knew, the actor mentioned in an interview that there was a cut scene where Sansa came to his room and asked for help. Even without that, my feeling was that he was definitely in on it with the two girls.

I stand corrected!

I do still prefer the idea of Sansa setting it all up on her own though.
posted by jonnyploy at 2:01 AM on August 31


There's a really egregious one in either S1 or S2 where Pycelle spends a long, long, long time having sex onscreen with a young woman while narrating his Deep Thoughts about Exposition out loud.

Minor point, I don't think he spent a lot of time having sex with her, most of it was him just talking after they had sex and her looking bored. Until he gets to the end of his exposition and she points out that he's wandered off from his original point.

But yeah, that scene, especially in retrospect, seems incredibly unnecessary.

Turns out the actor who played Pycelle managed to convince the writers to give him expanded scenes, which is probably where that sexposition came from.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:36 AM on August 31 [2 favorites]


I thought that scene also showed Pycelle putting on a facade of being mentally and physically weak which he knew the prostitute would report back through the little bird network. After she left the room he sprung up, did some deep knee bends and appeared totally with it.
posted by mmascolino at 4:14 AM on August 31 [1 favorite]


Yes, which had potential as a story, but it never went anywhere. Despite being clever, he and all the other smart people were outsmarted by Cersei.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:53 AM on August 31 [1 favorite]


There is a watchable cut scene where Tywin calls out Pycelle on his act. It's a great bit, and I always forget it's not part of the show proper. Really helped develop both characters in just a couple minutes. No nudity required.
posted by French Fry at 6:27 AM on August 31 [8 favorites]


But yeah, that scene, especially in retrospect, seems incredibly unnecessary.

And that's really the problem in a nutshell across HBO shows: constant gratuitous disproportionate full-frontal female nudity. Drives. Me. Bats.

I think the only TV show I've ever seen with appropriately filmed, frank, mostly non-gratuitous grown-up nudity and sex scenes that approaches gender and orientation parity is American Gods. Because Bryan Fuller is the greatest.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:50 AM on August 31 [4 favorites]


Re Sexposition:
HBO Should Show Dongs.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:12 AM on August 31 [3 favorites]


After she left the room he sprung up, did some deep knee bends and appeared totally with it.
posted by homunculus at 11:53 AM on August 31


Apparently the new HBO prestige drama The Deuce totally shows dongs. Like, erect dongs, in action.

(I do definitely recall seeing Theon's kraken in season 2ish, though.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:22 PM on August 31 [2 favorites]


Oh man, that's a really great cut scene, french fry. Now I kind of want to watch all the deleted scenes for all the seasons.
posted by corb at 12:52 PM on August 31


Don't watch the cut scene with Theon & Ramsay Bolton.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:02 PM on August 31 [5 favorites]


> #timetruther
> Rewatching the whole series ...

I started with season 7 & have gone back to start from the beginning and there, in s1e3, Old Nan says
In that darkness the White Walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds.
Where were the damnable ice spiders in the season finale!??!?!?!
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 4:24 PM on August 31 [6 favorites]


HBO Should Show Dongs.

Related, they should also show Dogs. The Direwolves. Show me the Direwolves.
posted by codacorolla at 6:18 PM on August 31 [5 favorites]


Westeros Olympics
posted by jjoye at 11:41 PM on August 31 [3 favorites]


In case anyone missed it: cute Behind the Scenes featurette from the final episode. In addition to that gif of Brienne's beard-scritching cuteness, stay also for the awesome real accents of Podrick and The Hound!
posted by TwoStride at 9:54 AM on September 1 [3 favorites]


It was kind of annoying when Bronn said 'Come with me, Pod, we're not in this scene.'

My recent dream confirms Cersei's pregnancy is fake and she can build a kickass murder exoskeleton.
posted by bq at 11:51 AM on September 1 [1 favorite]


Does the exoskeleton shoot flame or ice?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:15 PM on September 1


Neither, it's full of sharp blades and praying mantis arms.
posted by bq at 1:23 PM on September 1




It was kind of annoying when Bronn said 'Come with me, Pod, we're not in this scene.'

"...because I don't do scenes with my ex."
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 3:20 PM on September 1 [5 favorites]


gif of Brienne's beard-scritching cuteness

It looks like there is a puff of smoke wafting from right to left from the area around Liam Cunningham's head. Casual internet search suggests that he doesn't smoke (tobacco products). Is it just an artifact of the gif, or is the smoke coming from somewhere else?
posted by porpoise at 4:04 PM on September 1


It looks like there is a puff of smoke wafting from right to left from the area around Liam Cunningham's head. Casual internet search suggests that he doesn't smoke (tobacco products). Is it just an artifact of the gif, or is the smoke coming from somewhere else?

I'm pretty sure I saw Gwendolyn Christine smoking in the background of one of the behind the scenes shots, so I'm guessing she had a lit cigarette in her other hand during the scritching...
posted by TwoStride at 4:16 PM on September 1 [1 favorite]


OMG Pod's real accent is so great. I really miss him. I hope he has more scenes.
posted by miss-lapin at 8:10 AM on September 2 [3 favorites]


> THIS WAS THE STUPIDEST PART. My eyes almost rolled out of my head. Medieval women DRINK LIKE FISHIES, as did every other pregnant woman in the history of the universe until a generation ago. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

Gonna take a semi-contrarian view on this one.

Representations of past periods are always filtered through the author's present day. Like, when Chaucer wrote about Thebes, Thebes was filled with knights in armor that seemed entirely medieval and not at all ancient Greek — and this isn't a problem.

Because Game of Thrones is a (pleasantly dumb) show written in the 2010s in the United States, the signifiers it uses to indicate "hey, check it out, so-and-so is totes knocked up" are signifiers that make sense in the 2010s in the United States. If that's bothersome, feel free to imagine that what really happened was that some signifier that indicated pregnancy that made sense in the medieval-ish context was given, just like you can pretend that when Chaucer is talking about courtly love or whatever in the Troilus, some signifier that made sense in the Greek context is what really went down.

Honestly, I've been treating the relationship between this season and some imagined actually-finished A Song of Ice and Fire as equivalent to the relationship between the events of seasons 1-4 and the Braavosi play that Arya watches — and on that level, I've enjoyed the hell out of it. Sure, parts are silly and don't quite hang together, but, well, whenever I start to get worked up about that I tell myself it's just a show and that I should really just relax.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:36 PM on September 2 [8 favorites]


the signifiers it uses to indicate "hey, check it out, so-and-so is totes knocked up" are signifiers that make sense in the 2010s in the United States.

But it's a signifier that has annoying effects here and now, with what alcohol women choose to drink or not potentially being seen as an indication of whether they're pregnant.

Posting this comment from a bar. As one does.
posted by asperity at 4:24 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]


> It was kind of annoying when Bronn said 'Come with me, Pod, we're not in this scene.'
New insane theory: showCersei has the same relationship to showBronn as Children's Hospital's Derrick Childrens has to Valerie Flame. What? It could work, seriously. Just think of the fanfics that could be written!
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 7:05 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]


Random distraction: Game Of Thrones Actors In Their Youth (Imgur gallery, for varying degrees of "youth," as the poster picked to include a picture of Charles Dance from 2002, instead of a photo of him actually in his younger days - from an article on The Sun)
posted by filthy light thief at 10:20 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]


That imgur gallery was pretty offensive pissed me off for undescribable reasons. It feels really trollish, but I can't pinpoint anything because of diffuseness.
posted by porpoise at 1:41 AM on September 3


There's some speculation that the Night King has all the same abilities Bran does

Also, both have substantial conks. Coincidence? Which regular viewers still believe in that?

This fits into my next problem, which is, why exactly does the Night King want to kill all humans?

So he can raise them up and have total power over them? Seems like a theme...EXCEPT it does seem like a short-sighted plan if you can't make any more living to become undead once you have killed and raised all the existing humans and they do seem to go off a bit.
posted by biffa at 3:26 PM on September 3


The Night King and his posse are all male, is there some sort of symbolism in that?

Otherwise yeah, what's his issue, why does he want to take over everything and kill everyone in the process? Seems like he has a nice spit of land up North, where humans don't want to go anyway, he one come south, looking for trouble?

If only someone would ask Bran these questions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:38 PM on September 3 [1 favorite]


Also, after very slowly walking the white walkers to the end of the wall, what was the Night King's plan if someone hadn't brought him a huge dragon to kill, raise and fly to blow up the wall?
posted by biffa at 3:40 PM on September 3


Have some of them climb the way, carrying the heavy chains and then they'd pull it down.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:59 PM on September 3 [1 favorite]


On second watch, the collapse of the wall reminded me of the World Trade Center buildings falling on 9-11. At the time, it seemed like we saw that film constantly, but then after a little while it was no longer played over and over; the prevailing sentiment was that it showed people dying and therefore should not be shown out of respect. Anyway, the way the buildings slumped and the rise of the dust cloud as it happened looked, to me, a lot like how they showed the wall going down.
posted by carmicha at 6:26 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]


I thought I maybe saw a female wight in passing? Not sure. Anyway, thanks Google.
posted by exogenous at 6:27 AM on September 4 [1 favorite]


Otherwise yeah, what's his issue, why does he want to take over everything and kill everyone in the process? Seems like he has a nice spit of land up North, where humans don't want to go anyway, he one come south, looking for trouble?

From the cave drawings that Jon discovered while mining dragon glass, don't we know that the Night King was, at one time, thousands of years ago, in the South? He just wants to get home!
posted by carmicha at 7:32 AM on September 4


How many sexposition scenes were there? I just remember the one in Barlish's brothel.

Testing my memory here, but I am confident about
- Tyrion and Shae
- Theon and Ros
- Joffrey and Ros
- Rob and Talisa
- Theon and that fishwife he slept with on the boat
- Danaerys and Daario
- Jaime and Cersei

Would have to check but I bet there's one with Robert and Cersei too. Renly and Loras?

Sex scenes I can think of that DON'T involve sexposition:
- some with Tyrion and Shae
- Sam and Gilly
- some with Jaime and Cersei (tho at least one of those was massively problematic anyway)
- Jon and Danaerys
posted by torticat at 5:22 PM on September 5 [1 favorite]


On second watch, the collapse of the wall reminded me of the World Trade Center buildings falling on 9-11.

Absolutely! I felt this on first watch and it made me feel ill. For me it wasn't the dust cloud rising up, but the debris cascading down like a waterfall. Ugh
posted by torticat at 5:25 PM on September 5 [1 favorite]


p.s. Non-sexposition of COURSE, also--Missandei and Grey Worm. They had a fair amount of conversation, but it was about their vulnerabilities and connection and union, not about some random political shit, which made the scene sweet instead of eyeroll-inducing.
posted by torticat at 5:31 PM on September 5 [1 favorite]


...and to balance that out, another sexposition scene I forgot to list. Oberyn and Ellaria and ?? (is it Loras?) in bed together, and someone ?? or other walks in on them to chat.
posted by torticat at 5:37 PM on September 5


Oberyn and Ellaria and ?? (is it Loras?) in bed together, and someone ?? or other walks in on them to chat.

That would be Olyvar, who is kind of like a gender-flipped Ros (i.e. a show-only character who largely exists to have more scenes in brothels). He also had a sex scene with Loras previous to that.
posted by Copronymus at 5:44 PM on September 5 [2 favorites]


Oberyn and Ellaria and ?? (is it Loras?) in bed together, and someone ?? or other walks in on them to chat.

In fairness, though, Oberyn and Ellaria are nearly always fucking someone or talking about fucking, so it'd be out of character for them to have any sort of conversation that wasn't sexposition.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:51 PM on September 7


Weren't there one or two Margaery-Renly-Loras and/or Margaery-Loras-Olyvar sexpositions?
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:53 PM on September 7


Also, I think there's a sexposition scene with Viserys about dragons early on.

I don't think there's one with Robert and Cersei, because I'm not sure we see them have sex, but I seem to remember one with Cersei and Lancel.
posted by Night_owl at 9:20 AM on September 8 [1 favorite]


Also, I think there's a sexposition scene with Viserys about dragons early on.

Oh! There is! It's like Episode 1 or 2, and it goes on and on. I remember it distinctly because a) it nearly made me tell this show to fuck off and die in the first season and b) I just rewatched all the early seasons again this summer and was even more pissed off seeing it the second time.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:03 PM on September 8 [1 favorite]


I finally made it through everything. Here's my season 8 prediction: a Sansa + Gendry romance. Gendry would be the opposite of Sansa's childhood fantasies of Joffree and Sir WhatshisnameFlowers. Gendry doesn't even know how to swordfight. He grew up in Fleabottom. But he seems decent thus far, and their offspring wouldn't be inbred!
posted by stowaway at 8:55 AM on September 10


Or Sansa and Yara, once she's rescued, thus giving the North the holds and the ships. Plus this trope winds her up with a swashbuckler and Yara is the kindest of them.
posted by corb at 9:49 AM on September 10 [1 favorite]


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