Avengers: Endgame (2019)
April 24, 2019 4:11 AM - Subscribe

After the devastating events of Avengers: Infinity War (2018), the universe is in ruins. With the help of remaining allies, the Avengers assemble once more in order to undo Thanos' actions and restore order to the universe. This is it, people.
posted by smoke (676 comments total) 34 users marked this as a favorite
 
Sometimes, it's great being in Oz!

Just got out, and I must say, I enjoyed this one. I didn't love the first part - retconning is my least favourite thing in comics, and I thought there was no way they could wrap this up in a satisfying fashion. I also found the first one a bit on the dreary side and too many battles. But by gum, they really did it. End Game is satisfying on a just about every level, and - astonishingly - this 3 hour marathon never really drags at all.

Things I especially liked or noticed (spoilers ahoy, folks, though I shan't got into crazy detail):
- It's funny, very funny. Possibly the funniest marvel ever? Chris Hemsworth is even more hilarious than usual.
- There's far fewer "battles" and much more variety to the scenes, I appreciated it.
- Loved what they did with Banner/Hulk. The special effects on his face were terrific.
- The time travel angles actually worked quite well I thought.
- Very few characters got hit with the stupid stick, which I really appreciated. The stupid stick made appearances all over the first one, and it really shat me when people acted so dumb.
- I loved the arc they gave Cap, really plugged into the genesis of his story.
- Black Widow + Hulk, that relationship hinted in Ultron was dropped, never to be picked up again, it seems.
- On the Widow, I really really love her and Clint's relationship. I love seeing non-sexual, close relationships between men and women on screen. More, please.
- Nebula's arc was also nice.
- Felt very bad for Tony.
- Pacing in general was very good, I thought.

Questions/mild criticisms:
- Was hoping to see a lot more of Captain Marvel. She's only in it for like 3 seconds. Boo. Also, she could have really made a difference in the fight!
- At the end, Peter appears to be back in school with his friends - HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? He's missed, uh, quite a bit of time there.
- They kind of papered over Clint's dark turn a bit. Dude would have been very fucked up. Kind of wish the decision on Morag had gone the other way.
- Did Hulk seem smaller to anyone else?
- Loki was barely there, I think of him as an honorary Avenger and would have liked him to pop up with a bit more prominence, Rock Dude had more lines.
- Uh, Falcon Boy doesn't have any super soldier serum...makes him a little piss weak no?

On the whole, I was pretty delighted with this. Nice work team,
posted by smoke at 4:24 AM on April 24 [11 favorites]


For those of us still stuck waiting for Thursday: Jimmy Fallon gave us something we can still watch to tide us over.

(I know that spoilers in here are inevitable after Thursday or so. I got my ticket for Sunday at noon; my roommate got his for Sunday at 7 am, and I figured i'd better get on it that same day or else the poor guy was going to BURST from the effort of not spoiling me.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:50 AM on April 24


Just got out - I thought it was a fitting finale for Phase 1 or 2 or whatever it’s called.

The thing I’m most conflicted about is Black Widow’s death. It made me angry, and while it was the ultimate sacrifice - to get rid of the only main female avenger from the original films just felt off. I’m glad they still mentioned her a few times at the end but still.

Anyway, overall - it all worked. Even the cheesy moments felt earned after so long. It didn’t even feel that long, to be honest.

ALSO EVERYTHING WITH THE CAPTAIN AMERICA ENDING. No words for that squee.

Also apparently that teenage boy I didn’t recognise at the funeral at the end was a kid that helped Stark in Iron Man 3. I had no idea but there you go.

Future Marvel movies better deal with how fucked up the world surely still is dealing with the consequences of a five year lag for half the population and nothing changing for the other five. Like, surely - so much would have been messed up.

Anyway, everyone else will come in later and have more nuanced thoughts but whatever, it’s late.
posted by liquorice at 6:00 AM on April 24 [14 favorites]


And obviously not enough Captain Marvel or Black Panther but I take heart they get their sequels soon.
posted by liquorice at 6:05 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]


Considering what happened to her I'm looking forward to the proposed BW movie.

On this movie, I can't believe it actually worked. Even if I wanted more stucky dammit

Glad to see that Ragnarok! Thor characterisation is still holding true (glad Hemsworth put his foot down on this), and in some small ways this movie kinda salvaged the second Thor movie and maybe a little bit of AoU? And it's true that 3 hour length was barely felt at all. Hell, that final ending (sooooo soo earned) could be longer.
posted by cendawanita at 6:21 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]


I went in expecting it to be a mess, but this was actually quite nice! The only thing I'd change would be to have Clint die instead of Nat and to have Okoye join in on the time travel shenanigans. The "on your left" bit at the final battle where literally everyone we've ever met in a MCU movie shows up to help was immensely satisfying, and I also really liked King Valkyrie. The time travel stuff is also very fun.
posted by storytam at 9:39 AM on April 24 [11 favorites]


considering it's one of my favourite moments of IM3, seeing Rescue again was a genuine treat. And Freyja! (too bad Sif or the Warriors Three didn't get a moment)
posted by cendawanita at 11:17 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]


I'll avoid big plot spoilers since we're the early birds, but still, proceed with caution.

Just came back from seeing this with my kid; MCU's been our jam since she was old enough to watch the movies (so, about five years now). We both came out thinking this was great! Exciting, funny, surprising and bittersweet, and just a perfectly crafted ending to a very long saga. My take:

Personally, I liked the pacing a lot. It really shows that the actors have inhabited these characters for so many years now, they just feel fully developed and natural. I liked how they and their relationships were given a surprising amount of screen time here. (Even though the teenagers in the row behind us seemed to be getting a little twitchy at some point with the lack of action and abundance of emotion on display. I considered throwing some popcorn at them.)

We adore Captain Marvel, but both thought that it was a good idea to use her a little sparingly.

We happened to rewatch Guardians vol 2 just a couple of days ago, and even though it doesn't tie in story-wise to this one as concretely as some other movies in the franchise, it turned out to be the perfect choice since Nebula has such an important part in this one. It was good to have her backstory fresh in mind.

The Cap arc did not disappoint me, although it had been my theory all along. Thor's, uh, development was surprising, yet oddly fitting for the character. Also, his reunion scene with, well, the person he was united with, was just really lovely.

I did not see some of the twists coming. And after the first fifteen minutes or so we were like wtf, now what? Where do you go from here? Which was pretty awesome, actually, since that was exactly how the characters were feeling at that point, too.

It was great to see some quite unexpected characters from previous films turn up. And even though it was a bit jarring to see some really important ones pop in as barely more than extra's, I thought it was better to have a central story with a tight focus on a fairly small group of key players.

We felt a little pandered to by the girlpower scene during the end fight, and we accepted it gracefully.

And Hulk's little fake hulk-smash scene was hilarious.
posted by sively at 11:57 AM on April 24 [14 favorites]


** Big spoilers, skip if haven't seen yet **

I truly hope that the girlpower team-up was included as a way of gauging audience response to a potential all-female team a la A-Force. I can't have been the only one who air punched at that moment. Anyway Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead got there first.

I'm worried about a Guardians team without Gamora or Nebula and two space morons at the helm.

Including Ty Simpkins in the funeral was just weird. That whole b-plot from IM3 was so forgettable I was stuck trying to work out who he was rather than weeping for the military industrialist.

Also agreed, not enough Carol or T'challa, especially since they're moving up to team leads next (I think?)
posted by Molesome at 1:45 AM on April 25 [6 favorites]


Steve Rogers the character has to be the luckiest of them all, to actually have the same writers writing him throughout MCU (except for the Whedon outings, and it showed) and with it, the most realised/well-executed longform arc.
posted by cendawanita at 2:00 AM on April 25 [11 favorites]


*spoilers*

Can we talk about time travel? Thanos has travelled foward from the time of the first guardians of the galaxy film (2014) with his entire army and the black order to 2023. Then apparently they all get killed in the battle of endgame. So how are the events of infinity war achieved? Did I miss something? It would make sense if Iron man had just returned them all to the past with their memories erased or something, but he didn't- he turned them to ash.
posted by leibniz at 2:08 AM on April 25 [13 favorites]


So I went into this very cynical, being legit exhausted by all the movies and wanting it all to just... end and yet I was extremely pleasantly surprised and enjoyed the shit out of it. Some random thoughts incoming WITH SPOILERS.

---

I love how they messed with expectations, especially with killing Thanos in the first 10 minutes of the movie.

As pretty much everyone predicted the solution was time travel, but even that wasn't in a way that I thought they'd do. Ant-Man's quantum stuff was indeed the solution, which was also predicted by a fair amount of people.

The time travel stuff overall was okay, and as happy as I am for Cap getting his own version of a happy ending, I felt that was a bit timey-wimey there.

Tony's death was predictable, but I think the execution went well.

I am bothered by Natasha's death; it really should have been Clint.

Deadbeat drunken Thor was a great comic relief and as someone mentioned upthread this was one of the funniest movies.

I would have loved to have had more Black Panther and Captain Marvel. However, Carol is just so much stronger than everyone else, I also agree that it's best not to use her too much. Nevertheless I'd totally be up for Captain Marvel 2.

I felt they could have added like 5 more minutes in the end to just spend a bit more times with the characters and their happy endings (yes I know the movie is already 3 hours long...).

In any case, minor gripes aside, this was executed extremely well and well above my expectations by Marvel and it's a fitting, fun end for a 10-year saga.
posted by KTamas at 2:25 AM on April 25 [5 favorites]


Great overall, I really enjoyed taking some time to show us the impact of the attack. Super super disappointed that the Soul Stone choice just worked as expected with selfsacrifice - even after she jumped I was completely ready for Widow to wake up with the stone and Clint to die. Also super disappointed at so much time spent on Stark's funeral and barely a little on Widow - i mean sure Widow has way less people she was attached to but at least contrast that rather than presenting it as a less important death! No scene with Fury and an empty office was a crime.
posted by xiw at 2:33 AM on April 25 [11 favorites]


>> Can we talk about time travel?

Sure. BTTF rules apply. Or don't. For a film that made a point of calling out other movies' wonky time travel rules and adhering to a strict "non-interference" warning, "don't break the time threads" mystical Powerpoint demo, etc, etc, Tony royally screwed everything up at the end.
posted by Molesome at 4:20 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]


Yeah the time travel interference stuff really didn't make a lot of sense - I assumed they'd be trying to sneak around to get the stones when they could plausibly disappear without affecting the timeline, but nope they just beat starlord around the head and take one. How about arriving a week earlier instead?

On the other hand 'this is the only way I can convince the ancient one to hand over the stone in the past' is an actual reason for Strange handing over the stone in the last movie that worked, and I was absolutely not expecting that promise to work out.
posted by xiw at 4:31 AM on April 25 [15 favorites]


I really enjoyed taking some time to show us the impact of the attack.

Yes, I was not expecting this movie to explore that with much more than some heroic moping and perhaps a bit of breaking stuff.

But we got to see all sorts of responses people have to grief, loss and failure. Some mature and take constructive action. Some go through personal growth and transformation. Some revert to immature distraction-seeking and even addiction. Some become their worst selves. Some disengage, stop trying, distance themselves and cocoon. Some blame others.

I realized I had been expecting to see the protagonists mostly portray anger followed by variations of Newfound Resolve, superhero-style (except Clint who I'd seen in the trailer Not Coping Well). It took me by surprise that so much thought had also been put into exploring the... suboptimal ways to cope.

We also see how some relationships become strained, grow more distant or break, while others grow stronger or warmer with an added layer of shared pain and vulnerability.

Captain Marvel's quip about things having gone differently had she been there before was just a tad heartless... These people were hurting so much with survivors guilt and a sense of having fucked up terribly.
posted by sively at 4:53 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]


I loved most of the movie, but...the bit in Asgard?

My mom died suddenly four years and eight months ago. I wasn't there.

Let me tell you, it is not a great look sitting there in a full movie theatre trying not to sob your fucking eyes out in the middle of a superhero movie.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 12:08 PM on April 25 [34 favorites]


Oh my god I loved this so much. I am a fidgety person and the three hours didn’t drag at all. I was all in for the girlpower scene during the end fight, my funko pop collection come to life! Tears flowing during Tony’s funeral.
posted by ellieBOA at 12:24 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]


Just saw it a couple of hours ago. Apparently unlike many of you I was A-OK with Natasha sneak-saving Clint for his faaaaamily. It felt completely in character and correct, much as I will miss her, and their dynamic together.

The all-girl power squad made me squint a bit even though it was good to see. Bit heavy handed.

Without too specific spoilers... Cap's trick in the lift, and his battle Crowning Moment of Awesome, may have made me (a non squeaker) squeak aloud (although the rest of the cinema drowned me out).

It was huge fun to spot so many people from the entire Marvel run, although no Coulson?? /sadface. And thanks for identifying Strange Teen there.. we couldn't figure out who he was.

Definitely felt like a huge, splashy love letter to the fans and the franchise, and a fitting and satisfactory end of an era. I am looking forward to seeing where they go next.
posted by Ilira at 12:26 PM on April 25 [9 favorites]


Molesome: "I truly hope that the girlpower team-up "

I loved this, the Avengerettes.

I also thought Capt. Marvel was sort-of symbolic of emotional labor, I mean while the earthlings get all excited & proud of themselves for defeating this little army of invaders on their home planet, she's out saving the REST OF THE UNIVERSE BY HERSELF.

The audience I was in cheered when Black Panther turned up, which was nice.
posted by chavenet at 2:28 PM on April 25 [14 favorites]


SPOILERS BELOW

Just saw it tonight. Post-film emotions are... large, but not quite as huge as after Infinity War.

I really admired how they managed to thread together the collage of characters and story arcs, everyone getting a moment to honour or resolve their story.

I think, within that, certain beats maybe got a little more time than was necessary. They were trying really hard to make us care about Hawkeye. Really hard. Ditto Ant-Man, whom they took pains to make plot-essential; but everything he contributed could easily have been done by Stark and Banner.

I know big studios are cautious with large-scale internationally released franchise films, but it did seem that there was a huge emphasis on the heteronormative family and a huuuge NO HOMO sign stuck on Captain America. (Similar to the one stuck on Spock in the rebooted Star Trek films, where previously Spock had been one of the few characters with whom non-hetero fans could identify.)

So Cap and Tony got their resolution, which was beautifully done. Cap and Sam got their resolution. Cap and Bucky get one short, fairly impersonal scene at their reunion and no resolution at all.

Now, I'm not a ride-or-die shipper. I don't care whether Cap and Bucky are lifelong friends or in love or lovers, chaste or unchaste. But Cap and Bucky started this story together in First Avenger. Cap and Bucky lifted Winter Soldier to everyone's favourite film. The whole conflict in Civil War was about Cap choosing Bucky over every other tie. So narratively they need to end this story together, somehow, and that's what Marvel Studios didn't provide.

(In my head, obviously, having passed on the mantle to the well-deserving Sam, Steve Rogers gets up off that bench and walks over towards James Buchanan Barnes. Steve walks a little slower than he used to, but that's fine; Bucky waits with a smile. Wordlessly they turn and walk off together, shoulder to shoulder in the late afternoon light. End of the line.)
posted by Pallas Athena at 3:48 PM on April 25 [34 favorites]


I saw this at one of the "Fan Event" things (the 5p showing) here and I'm really glad I did because there was so much cheering at all of the right moments.

SPOILERY THOUGHTS

Echoing lots of the sentiments here -- I was so surprised by how the movie started that I felt like I didn't know what was coming next (even though I'd heard the time travel rumors and knew that the opening didn't rule them out). Especially after Vormir, I didn't feel like any of the original folks were safe so I was on edge during some of the big battle.

I'm also happy that the characters who had their arcs resolved got that resolution (with at the least the exception noted above of Steve and Bucky, boo), but in ways that mostly leave them open to more comic-book-logic adventures (even before you count the obvious "we solved time travel" thing). (Really, I'm ambivalent: I mean, leave both the characters and the actors alone and tell new stories with new voices, but if there's a script that supports a really good scene for them to drop in on...)

It's also a little fun/a little weird to try to pick out what's being set up for the unannounced movies -- Cassie is aged up, Hawkeye is training his daughter (and she's already very good), New Asgard is a thing, we have Professor Hulk, etc etc.

At the end, Peter appears to be back in school with his friends - HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? He's missed, uh, quite a bit of time there.

Half of the school is in the same situation, but it is weird that his best friend appears not to have aged but also seems to have missed him for five years.
posted by jdherg at 6:24 PM on April 25 [10 favorites]


so then steve and peggy bust bucky out of hydra, and then steve peggy and bucky bust natasha out of the red room, right?

i just got out and i thought i was ready. i was not. i was in no way ready.
posted by dogheart at 6:34 PM on April 25 [14 favorites]


I was a bit let down by it honestly. It wasn't as bad as I feared but not nearly as good as I hoped. I liked what they did with Banner and loved Cap's arc, but Thor's apparent ptsd being used as a punch line sucked, and even with all those great female characters did they manage to even pass the Bechdel test? Nat didn't even get any character development.
posted by peppermind at 6:39 PM on April 25 [16 favorites]


I HAVE SO MANY FEELINGS
posted by Jacqueline at 6:48 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]


So was this the first to have no mid or post credit scene?
posted by Karmakaze at 7:27 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]


Got a bunch of thoughts about it. Overall, it was great, with appropriate resolutions for the big three, and mostly-good resolutions for the others.

- Not sure how they're doing time travel here. The stones went back to the places that they were taken from, but... 2014 Thanos ain't going back (unless the Snappening II: Tony Boogaloo was a head fake and Thanos & Co. went back to their original places, sans memories), and if he didn't go back, how are the stones gone?

- Definitely on Team Nat. Maybe Bruce pulled her resurrection off after all; I mean, if the stones were taken back to the places and times that they were borrowed from, that would mean that the Soul Stone no longer needed that sacrifice. I'm hoping that the BW movie isn't just a flashback. Was seriously hoping that she'd, I dunno, wake up in St. Petersburg (Russia, not Florida) with amnesia in a credits scene. I'm still hoping that something like that is why she didn't really get a funeral, ditto Vision.

- Aw hell yeah for AvengHers and Queen Valkyrie. And Dad-Bod Thor was never not funny.

- Hoping for Stature and Not-Kate-Bishop-But-Clint's-Daughter-Hawkeye.

-Digging that the Russo Bros. put Yvette Nicole Brown and Ken Jeong in the movie, adding to the list of Community alumni who have been in their MCU movies (has anyone else been in that anyone can think of?)

- Too many funny lines to quote. I'm sure they will all be memed.

- My prediction is that something will be worked up for Bucky to end up being Cap's bodyguard, but with the old man (Old Man Steve?) needing it a lot less than anyone thinks. I also wonder what happened to the hammer.

- GotG v. 3 will be interesting. And I hope that they manage to work Nova into that, which I'd hoped for for this movie, but oh well. It wasn't like they didn't have a whole mess o' heroes.

I'm sure I'll have more later. Damn glad that I saw this on a really big screen.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:42 PM on April 25 [4 favorites]


OH, I do already! Anyone else catch the sound of hammer on metal at the very, very end?
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:43 PM on April 25 [13 favorites]


Also, I meant to mention Danny Pudi in Winter Soldier above.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:44 PM on April 25


Overall, I'm very happy. So many good little moments, and ludicrously huge moments.
posted by jameaterblues at 8:53 PM on April 25


god, god, y'all are my internet place to cry in spoilers from the theater lobby tonight

Fuck, I can't even think about Nat yet, she has to come back, I refuse to contemplate otherwise, and Gamora, I REFUSE

oh, Tony
posted by nicebookrack at 8:59 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]


It was incredibly ambitious to have Thanos kill half the universe and then have a sequel to that. Endgame mostly satisfies, but it does so in an unsatisfying way i.e. our collective understanding of superhero tropes. Time travel will always be bit of cheat, story-wise, but we're ok with that if we love the characters and the basic plot isn't too full of technobabble.

That said, what the fuck about Nat and Gamora, didn't see that coming, though in retrospect they make sense, especially with Nat. Up into the end, I kept expecting her to pop up somewhere, but sacrifice is sacrifice and doing so would have cheapened her moment.

Overall, the film did its job in closing up this chapter and leaving room for a new one. I can't, (I WON'T) agree with all the choices made, but it was an enjoyable three hours and it was worth the ticket price. It feels like an extra 5-10 minutes to linger over some of the characters would have been nice instead of the Tony Stark show, but still, it works.

Loved Cap with the hammer though!

But Nat better come back
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:09 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]


Digging that the Russo Bros. put Yvette Nicole Brown and Ken Jeong in the movie, adding to the list of Community alumni who have been in their MCU movies (has anyone else been in that anyone can think of?)

Clearly Ant-Man director Peyton Reed is just a Jim Rash character.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:13 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]


I think about Iron Man, 2008, that almost-opening scene just when Tony's been kidnapped, when he's still just some smug rich asshole being waterboarded, and right before he loses consciousness underwater, you can very faintly hear Pepper's voice saying Tony because he loved her even then.

He never stops being that smug rich asshole and he never stops loving her and he never stops being himself even when himself becomes more.

This character, this character arc, this actor. There will never be another Robert Downey Jr as MCU Tony Stark. There have been and will be phenomenal superhero actors and they bring me so much joy, but there will never be another RDJ being Tony being one hundred percent himself, because Tony is always Extremely Tony. RDJ created this character and became this character like he was channeling the guy's ghost, like a rabbit pulling himself out of a hat that he created. Magic.

Thank you for Tony, Robert.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:24 PM on April 25 [71 favorites]


I have to say, this makes me very curious about the MCU going forward, because they have given themselves a hell of a problem. It’s always hard to write superheroes, because how do you make the stakes big enough to challenge gods but small enough to be human, but now they have literally unlimited power. As long as there are Pym Particles, the heroes can always travel time, reassemble a gauntlet, have Dr. Hulk snap his fingers, and, hey presto, one burned arm later they have once again harnessed infinite powers.

I will be curious as to the explanation as to why this is never done again.
posted by maxsparber at 9:25 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]


I will be curious as to the explanation as to why this is never done again.

I'd be surprised if it's ever mentioned gain, similar to how Bucky killed Tony's parents.

Too soon?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:31 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]


I also wonder what happened to the hammer.

It had to be returned to its proper time (Thor 2) where Thor took it, along with the Aether (red Reality stone)

Anyone else catch the sound of hammer on metal at the very, very end?

Yes!
posted by Fleebnork at 9:35 PM on April 25 [8 favorites]


Okay guys, tell me your favorite moments of audience reaction!

Times When My Theater Audience Applauded:
- Cap picking up Mjolnir (LOUD)
- Sam saying "On your left," (applause building as more heroes came out, then CHEERS as baby Spider-Man swings onscreen)
- Cap saying "Avengers, assemble" (with cheers!)
- Captain Marvel punching the fuck out of the caterpillar spaceship
- as the end credits started

Then three-fourths the audience remained seated through the credits (GOOD MARVEL AUDIENCE, SMART MARVEL AUDIENCE), and we had almost willed a post-credits stinger scene into existence by the power of our collective held breath until the theater lights came up and ruined it.

I loved you tonight, my fellow audience, I was happy to be with you.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:36 PM on April 25 [22 favorites]


My theater audience whisper-yell-hissed "YEEESSSSSSSSSS" when Steve gave Sam the shield. I think my audience and I will be quite content to accept the torch-passing of the Captain America as a legacy character.

My audience was great. I should've gotten people's numbers so we could stay in touch, arrange a Theater 12 reunion in a year where we meet up and eat popcorn together.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:50 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]


Still processing ...

In addition to the cheering moments already mentioned, the crowd I saw it with also erupted in applause during Cap’s winter soldier callback scene in the elevator. Also a very strong reaction when Thanos head butted Carol and it didn’t phase her in the slightest.

I was overall incredibly satisfied with this movie. It’s a powerful and impressive end to an astonishing run of 22(!) mostly great movies. Obviously, it makes sense that if anybody could create a complex and satisfying cosmic narrative in a serialized format, it’d be a comic book publisher, but even still, they succeeded beyond my expectations.
posted by wabbittwax at 10:00 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]


that teenage boy I didn’t recognise at the funeral at the end was a kid that helped Stark in Iron Man 3

oh my god that was HARLEY he got so biiiggg 😭 I have a deep abiding soft spot for Harley and IM3, the movie that made Marvel realize that Exasperated Dad Tony was actually a hilarious/touching character dynamic to spring on Peter Parker. If we're getting the MCU Young Avengers team, which yes plz ASAP, I nominate Harley for Iron Lad. Morgan Stark, the precious angel of my heart, needs to get at least through elementary school before she picks up a legacy hero gig.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:11 PM on April 25 [8 favorites]


I loved you tonight, my fellow audience, I was happy to be with you.

Audiences in Paris are quiet normally but there was a huge gasp when Cap picked up the hammer!
posted by ellieBOA at 10:39 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]


I really enjoyed it and was quite satisfied.

Re: Bucky and Cap: the closure of their arc is that Bucky knows what Cap is going to do when the other guys don't, which is why he says, "I'll miss you" and why he isn't screaming at Banner to figure out what went wrong, he just turns away knowingly. I appreciated the quiet bittersweetness of it.
posted by Errant at 10:55 PM on April 25 [63 favorites]


This movie gave us the first official instance of TV MCU influencing Movie MCU instead of vice versa! The actor James D'Arcy, who played 1970s Howard Stark's butler/chauffeur Jarvis, first played Jarvis in the ABC TV Marvel series Agent Carter.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:02 PM on April 25 [24 favorites]


Re: Gamora - she's not fully gone though, right? Past Gamora got pulled into the present, and then she somehow disappeared during the big battle. I don't think she turned into ash at Tony's click. When Thor joins the "Asgardians" of the Galaxy, Quill has her face up on a screen with the word "SEARCHING" so my assumption is that's a lead-in to the next GotG movie.
posted by web-goddess at 11:15 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]


I liked the ship mysteriously changing target, then realizing it was "oh shit Captain Marvel incoming!"

Lebowski Hemsworth!

I thought they were going to just do the elevator scene again, and I love how they ran with that idea.

Joe Russo, one of the directors, was the man talking about losing his male partner at grief counseling.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:45 PM on April 25 [18 favorites]


I got real Anthony Hopkins vibes with Hemsworth in full beard.

Great wrap up to the series. Still mulling.
TIME HEIST!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:52 PM on April 25 [4 favorites]


We liked the callbacks not just to other MCU films, but the shots recreated from Infinity War. Natasha and Clint on Vormir is the obvious one, but more poignant is the defeated sit down Thanos does at the end, mirroring Captain America's despaired collapse in the last film. What a way to circle everything back.
posted by orbit-3 at 12:24 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]


Savepoint Gamora headcanon accepted, even though it wipes out basically all of her onscreen plotlines/relationships that don't involve being Thanos's MacGuffin.

More thoughts on death:
- Time travel paradox fuckery has no meaning in this movie timeline or universe, because Present Nebula shot Past Nebula and nothing happened to Present Nebula despite her killing her past self.
- Happy at the funeral checking on Morgan and asking if she's hungry, does she want a cheeseburger. Sometimes when the tiring day has been A Lot, you need Happy to give you a cheeseburger, whether you have just gotten back from months as a torture hostage in a cave or whether you are a little girl who has just lost her dad.
- A well-directed & acted death scene from RDJ. No bittersweet but alert final words, no coughing up blood before the sudden dramatic slump over as his eyes snap shut. Tony just grows quiet and pale and still as the strength drains out of him, his eyes searching for his family's faces even as his gaze goes unfocused and empty.
- Savepoint Natasha theory: Spidey-Peter's babbling indicated that all the dusted were resurrected exactly where they died, and then Wong (underrated hero of the hour) and his sorcerers used portals to gather the super-cavalry. So offscreen the story went like this:
1) Bruce wishes reeeeally hard on the Gauntlet to resurrect Natasha plus the dusted
2) Natasha suddenly rematerializes alive on Vormir, scaring the hell out of Red Skull
3) Nat's time travel suit, her Pym particles, and her spaceship went home with Hawkeye or went poof with magic, and Vormir doesn't offer shuttle service to Terra
4) Natasha: "FUCK"

Cue Black Widow movie: Nat! In! Spaaaace!
posted by nicebookrack at 12:24 AM on April 26 [22 favorites]


-Digging that the Russo Bros. put Yvette Nicole Brown and Ken Jeong in the movie, adding to the list of Community alumni who have been in their MCU movies (has anyone else been in that anyone can think of?)

You got Danny Pudi in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, but also Jim Rash is in Captain America: Civil War andDonald Glover is in Spider-Man: Homecoming. It isn't MCU, but Joel McHale is in Spider-Man 2 denying Tobey Maguire's Aunt May a bank loan.

For the reverse, the paintball episode of the sixth season of Community has its own elevator fight scene like Cap's in Winter Soldier.
posted by memento maury at 12:29 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]




Wow, I'd heard that The Guardian review was spoilery, but seriously, wtf?
posted by Pronoiac at 12:45 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]


The only Captain America ending I could want more than five seasons of Cap pretending to be Shmeven Shmogers, house husband of S.H.I.E.L.D. is Steve briefly considering telling his life story and then deciding no, it's not entertainment, the story is his and he lived a quiet life that was just for him and Peggy and that's enough.

The time travel seemed pretty straightforward. They can't change their own timeline but they can create new alternate universes, and if they don't put the stones back correctly they create really shitty alternate universes. For example, if they tried to change their past then they'd create an alternate universe where the snap never happened but their own universe would still be shit, so bringing everyone back in the present was the only way to set things up so that there wasn't another extra alternate universe with a massive divergance.
Thanos is just a big swole jackass and not actually a fundamental force of the universe or whatever the hell the stones are, so all that happens if you remove him from the past in Universe 199999-2014 is that he never does any Infinity War stuff and everyone is fine over there.

Needed more Quake and Jessica Jones and Cloak and Karolina and etc., but overall I think it was as good as it could possibly be under the circumstances. I loved how every single movie turned out to be important, and most of them are made better by association with this movie. Tony slowly unraveling as he fights to retire in Iron Man 3, Thor's mother in Thor 2, little callbacks like the elevator, Steve at the party scene turning out to be one of the most important scenes in Avengers 2... all kinds of weird little callbacks. Everything mattered and everything got better.
posted by fomhar at 1:25 AM on April 26 [15 favorites]


I know someone who saw it at the premiere and his immediate response was “IT’S A LOT” and his later review was “they fucking did it” and darn if if those two statements don’t encompass how I feel too.
posted by sleeping bear at 1:28 AM on April 26 [15 favorites]


>> Thanos is just a big swole jackass and not actually a fundamental force of the universe or whatever the hell the stones are, so all that happens if you remove him from the past in Universe 199999-2014 is that he never does any Infinity War stuff and everyone is fine over there.

On first reading my brain went "ah yes, multiverse!" but Steve doesn't go back and replace the stones in a different iteration of MCU reality which then doesn't have a Snapture because it has no Thanos, he goes back and replaces them and stays there with Peggy (sorry, bit of grit in my eye, hang on) and we know this because moments/decades later he's there with Bucky and Sam in our MCU reality. So, no multiverse.

Going back and letting Loki escape with the Tesseract in 2012 has broken something. Removing Thanos from the timeline has broken something. And yet, Thanos destroying the time stone in 2023 didn't break something the Ancient One was protecting us from?

I'm going with "comic book movie!"
posted by Molesome at 2:19 AM on April 26 [12 favorites]


There are so many moments I like about this movie, and I respect a lot of what it accomplished, and it really did feel like reading one of the better comics crossover events... and yet, on the balance, I don't think I'm crazy about it.

The thing I'm most disappointed in, maybe even angry? There's no repudiation of Gamora's arc and how Thanos "loves" her despite his monumental trail of abuse. I don't think that's healthy at all. I think messaging like that is actively bad. One of the worst cases of fridging I can think of.

Killing off Nat threw extra anger on top of that for me. Like a callback to what pissed everyone off in Ultron, but worse 'cause the childless monster is now dead as an acceptable casualty (because hey, no family). I may be alone here, but I really didn't need sacrifice after sacrifice, particularly with Tony's end and so many other characters dead and not coming back along the way (Heimdall, Vision, etc).

The big three vs Thanos fight made him come off as way more powerful without the gauntlet and the stones than he was in IW. Is that just me? Am I missing something? And playing up Thor's physical shape for comedy felt like one big fat-shaming joke.

Also: the whole universe now has one big shared five-year trauma. Mass death for five years, then suddenly everyone's back all at once. For most of the universe, it will go unexplained. Will every movie after this spend its time showing the effects of that? Somehow I doubt it, and I don't really want that anyway, but it's...there?

There are buckets of things I really liked, stuff I actively cheered in the theater, but my frustrations and disappointments feel like they're outweighing all that.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:09 AM on April 26 [23 favorites]


This movie gave us the first official instance of TV MCU influencing Movie MCU instead of vice versa! The actor James D'Arcy, who played 1970s Howard Stark's butler/chauffeur Jarvis, first played Jarvis in the ABC TV Marvel series Agent Carter.

It sounds like they dubbed in Paul Bettany’s voice, though.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:11 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]


I know someone who saw it at the premiere and his immediate response was “IT’S A LOT”

I went to the 7 PM show last night, and as I walked past the line of people for the 10:30 PM show on my way out it occurred to me that there was literally no one thing I could accidentally say that would have spoiled the movie. There was just too much that happened, too many little things that built up to the climax at the end, for there to be one big spoiler on the order of "I can't believe that Darth Vader was Luke's father!" or whatever. It's an extremely busy movie, but it didn't feel unnecessarily convoluted in the manner of certain recent blockbusters I could name, and even if every piece didn't mesh perfectly, it still held together in the end because we cared about the characters. That's the Marvel brand, and I hope they're able to keep that at the forefront going into the next phase.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:20 AM on April 26 [8 favorites]


@scaryblackdeath I didn't think that Nat's death was considered an acceptable loss by anybody in the film, and certainly not in the audience. It was something she chose, though. My sense from the film is that she'd done five years with survivor's guilt and was done. Also, given that the word is they've greenlit a Black Widow movie, I'm skeptical that she's permanently dead dead.

"The big three vs Thanos fight made him come off as way more powerful without the gauntlet and the stones than he was in IW. Is that just me? Am I missing something?"

I've long given up on movies, shows, or comics having a consistent set of powers / level of powers for characters and just tend to roll with it unless it's enormously egregious. Thanos in the comics is ridiculously powerful - and in Infinity War he takes out Hulk without the gauntlet and wins, and they had to hold Hulk back from beating Surtur in Ragnarok, so... this didn't seem out of place for me.

If I could do a gauntlet snap, though, I'd probably override the whole "Thanos loves Gamora" thing for sure. I mean, not before world peace and ending cancer, but it's on the list.
posted by jzb at 6:29 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]


The Cap + Hammer moment was unbelievably cool in the moment, but for me it felt like it came out of nowhere. In a 3-hour movie with so many moving parts I understand why they didn’t have room for a whole Hammer Inheritance Arc, but it immediately raised a bunch of questions for me, not the least of which was: how did Cap even know to reach for the hammer in that moment? It’s still so baffling to me that I’m wondering if I missed something.
posted by Sokka shot first at 6:29 AM on April 26 [2 favorites]


Before this movie, the last conversation featuring Tony, Steve and Thor was at the end of "Age Of Ultron" and they were talking about the hammer ("... elevator's not worthy, etc."), more or less in the same location where this final battle was taking place. I think it's just Steve sees Thor getting his ass kicked, sees Mjolnir over there and figures, "enh, worth a try, right?" and then it works and he's like, "Oh it's ON now motherfucker."
posted by wabbittwax at 6:35 AM on April 26 [16 favorites]


At the party in AoU, Steve was the only one who made the hammer so much as budge, which Thor noticed.
posted by dumbland at 6:51 AM on April 26 [23 favorites]


Also, don't forget, in Age of Ultron, there is the post-party hangout scene where everyone tries to lift the hammer and Cap actually moves it a tiny nudge.

Edit: dumbland beat me to it.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:52 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]


I feel like I'm having an uncomfortable insight into the psyches of the writers and producers of these movies when I think about how fraught the relationship between several of the main characters and their own fathers is (Stark, T'Challa, Quill), and how their daughters specifically (Stark, Barton) play a significant personal growth role.

I'm probably not phrasing this well.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:52 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]




how fraught the relationship between several of the main characters and their own fathers is (Stark, T'Challa, Quill), and how their daughters specifically (Stark, Barton) play a significant personal growth role.

It's also worth noting that Ant-Man is the only MCU hero who was a father prior to becoming a superhero, and that his daughter (Peanut lives!) was the partial catalyst for him becoming Ant-Man in the first place. Scott Lang has a lot of flaws, but in spite of that he's a great dad and maybe the most well-adjusted, "normal" one of the group.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:03 AM on April 26 [13 favorites]


Also, of course, Thanos' daughters end up factoring in quite a bit.

As far as Cap reaching for the hammer, I think that it was an entirely spur-of-the-moment thing, which is just part of Cap's thing--making that snap decision that's right, maybe the only real option in the moment. Kind of like, when the two Caps face off, they come to a simultaneous decision to ditch their shields.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:08 AM on April 26 [5 favorites]


At the party in AoU, Steve was the only one who made the hammer so much as budge, which Thor noticed.

Well, I for one always interpreted that budge as a sign that Cap could have lifted Mjolnir then, too. But as soon as he realized that, he chose not to, in order to avoid... complicating things with Thor and the rest of the gang.
posted by sively at 7:15 AM on April 26 [40 favorites]


Kind of like, when the two Caps face off, they come to a simultaneous decision to ditch their shields.

Eh, they didn't ditch them so much as they both threw them at the same time and they ricocheted off simultaneously.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:17 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]


The Russo Brothers really learned from Infinity War and managed to make Endgame, with it's sprawling narrative and ridiculous number of characters virtually fly by. Infinity War seemed so bloated and meandering, but Endgame really manages to tell a complex and emotional story without getting bogged down. I am a HUGE fan of the new Captain Marvel movie and was afraid she'd get short shrift, since no one knew when Endgame was filmed if Capt Marvel would be a hit or not. I thought they used her character well and was thrilled to see her in all her glory, wielding her power against Thanos without stealing anybody else's thunder, so to speak. I was really surprised by and happy with Thor and Steve and Tony's storylines, I SCREAMED with unexpected delight and righteous anger when all the women joined forces to carry the gauntlet across the battlefield. Thank you Marvel for acknowledging that you have screwed over your female fans for decades, we deserved that moment. My only real criticism is WHERE WAS OKOYE? She should have gotten her 2 minutes of story time. That was disappointing. Otherwise, I loved it and can't wait to see it again.
posted by pjsky at 7:37 AM on April 26 [2 favorites]


I did like that when Cap lifted Mjolnir, he knew immediately the best way to use it. Definitely a well trained fighter.

And, given that he got together with Peggy, a wise time traveler too.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:07 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]


My only real criticism is WHERE WAS OKOYE? She should have gotten her 2 minutes of story time. That was disappointing.

I hear you, but Okoye has another movie in the works and we will see more from her. She got to deliver the badass line about "she has help", which was awesome.

I did like that when Cap lifted Mjolnir, he knew immediately the best way to use it. Definitely a well trained fighter.

I think it speaks to his super-soldierness, but also he has tons of firsthand experience seeing how Thor uses the hammer as well.
posted by Fleebnork at 8:11 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]


Just once I'd like someone to write a superhero epic where "and then they sacrifice their own life for others" isn't the only solution. Death is not the only possible plot choice for fixing shit. And "oh but the stakes are so high" is implying that nothing except life-or-death situations carry any emotional weight, and if that is truly the case, all storytelling from now on is just fucked.
posted by tzikeh at 8:13 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]


Uh, this doesn't mean I didn't love the movie. Just that I'd like everyone to live and still have it be a satisfying conclusion.
posted by tzikeh at 8:15 AM on April 26 [2 favorites]


Funny, I'd always interpreted the party/Cap/hammerlift as showing Thor holding Mjolnir in place with his will or mind and that when Cap grasped it he was surprised to find that he had to exert extra effort to hold it in place on the table...
posted by bird internet at 8:34 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]


(And yes, Stark's sacrifice in Endgame adds a whole lot of awful retroactive emotional weight to Strange saying "I'm sorry, Tony -- this is the only way" just before he's dusted. He wasn't apologizing for the world ending in ruins; he was apologizing to Tony personally.)
posted by tzikeh at 8:38 AM on April 26 [46 favorites]


I will admit I really dig the notion of "Fuck your timeline, I DO WHAT I WANT!" as a time travel conceit.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:58 AM on April 26 [10 favorites]


As far as Cap reaching for the hammer, I think that it was an entirely spur-of-the-moment thing, which is just part of Cap's thing--making that snap decision that's right, maybe the only real option in the moment.

I accept this (plus I'd totally forgotten about his other interaction with the hammer).
posted by Sokka shot first at 9:08 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]


in Infinity War he takes out Hulk without the gauntlet

Thanos had the Power stone and was actively using it. I'm going to guess that was enough to put him over the Strongest Avenger.
posted by SPrintF at 9:17 AM on April 26 [2 favorites]


and he's like, "Oh it's ON now motherfucker."

Language!
posted by SPrintF at 9:20 AM on April 26 [10 favorites]


Cap has demonstrably relaxed his language restrictions by this point in the story.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:23 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]


That IS America's Ass.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:35 AM on April 26 [51 favorites]


Going back and letting Loki escape with the Tesseract in 2012 has broken something. Or created something! Loki and His Misadventures, coming soon to Disney Plus.

I like that Cap went back for the dance with Peggy, but I'm thinking he ended up marrying someone else. From Winter Soldier: "Peggy Carter: Mm. I have lived a life. My only regret is that you didn't get to live yours." I could see
Cap going back for the dance, then letting things go their own way. Otherwise, what happens to Sharon Carter who's been brought back? Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter whom he married and I'm happy with the story they told.
posted by memento maury at 9:58 AM on April 26


They managed to sneak in Hawkeye as Ronin (not that they ever used that codename out loud), it's also significant that Clint volunteered for the initial Pym Particle test -- He was also Goliath in the comics for a time.

I'm willing to come to a combination model of time travel. Whether or not you split off an alternate timeline or just weave back in depends on how much "damage" you do to existing causality. Removing the time stone and not returning it would split off a disastrous timeline because then Dormamu consumes the Earth. Put the time stone back and the timeline can "heal" itself from the presence of the heist team. Removing Thanos and his entire army from the universe be enough damage to split off a new timeline, hence the ability to kill 2014 Nebula without overwriting the main timeline version. Steve, having learned subtlety, was able to slide through without triggering a paradox/timeline split.

I also choose to believe that escapee Loki, having been trained by Frigga, also understands how timelines work and has enough sense to not break things. On the other hand, he's also very good at faking his death, and could have gotten to Frigga in time to have her do the same, and they both can turn up later. (Thus talking Frigga off the list of MCU fridging with Gamora and Nat.)

And, on another topic - Carol Danvers -- when you really just need someone to punch out a spaceship.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:15 AM on April 26 [12 favorites]


Succinctly - this movie is a fitting end to the chapter the MCU began with Iron Man. While I might quibble with some of the choices and there are valid complaints with the movie around its handling of relationships, etc. it was a huge accomplishment. There were a number of moments in the movie - particularly Cap with Thor's hammer - that brought me sheer joy.

I am rarely able to submerse myself entirely in a film or show to the point where I am truly uncertain what's coming next and able to enjoy or experience it uncritically and completely. I found myself clapping and cheering several times in the film, and I was deeply happy that Tony Stark and Steve Rogers buried the hatchet (as expected, just like in the comics) not just to defeat Thanos but personally. Their story ended in friendship, which was very important to me.

The wibbly wobbly timey wimey bits were, well, wibbly. I have a lot of continuity and "if they did X then how does Y still work?" questions. I do wish, somehow, they'd have had a TARDIS Easter egg, or if somebody had worked in a "Jerimy Bearimy" I'd have exploded from joy on the spot.

My step-ish daughter is a huge MCU fan. I know Tony's death is going to be hard on her, though she did call it. I had my money on Cap being the one to make a big sacrifice.
posted by jzb at 10:24 AM on April 26 [9 favorites]


So, are there two Steve Rogers existing simultaneously? Cap Steve, the one we've all seen through these movies, and Second Steve, the one who went back and lived a different life? Because if Second Steve erased Cap Steve then everything in the timeline is messed up. But if he didn't, then there are two of them, until Cap Steve goes back and becomes the Second Steve? Second Steve then has a normal non-Avenger life, while Cap Steve is doing all the Captain America stuff. Second Steve comes to hand off his shield, and there is no longer a Cap Steve from now on? Ugh, time travel.
posted by Mavri at 11:14 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]


Things I squeeed at:
Steve stepping into the elevator
Steve wielding Mjolnir (As soon as it moved, I knew what was coming, but I still clapped in delight)

"Avengers, Assemble"
The cavalry, er, I mean, Captain Marvel kicking spaceship ass. (as above, as soon as the ships changed targets, it was clear what was coming, but still awesome)
"She has help."

And a bunch others. I'm still processing. I'll be seeing this in the theatre again for sure.

As for the timeline stuff, I thought they made it work mostly pretty well. Even the Steve thing at the end works if you assume he kept the time-travel suit around and once Peggy passed in that timeline, came back to the original. Maybe the delay in returning just through off the targeting a little so he landed away from the device.
posted by Tabitha Someday at 11:16 AM on April 26 [2 favorites]


I prefer to believe that Steve Rogers is 160-170 years old physically, being one person who lived through a timeline, then lived through part of it again, and spent part of that time in suspended animation in the Atlantic.
posted by ZeusHumms at 11:28 AM on April 26 [2 favorites]


There were a number of moments in the movie - particularly Cap with Thor's hammer - that brought me sheer joy.

I appreciated that Thor's reaction was a joyful "I KNEW it!"

Other appreciations:
Wong bringing the armies together
I must have liked Captain Marvel more than I realized because when she appears I nudged my friends and hissed "THAT'S HER!"
Frigga's wisdom, and also "Eat a salad!"
Rhodes and Nebula team up. I didn't expect that but it works.
Rescue introduction and women team-up.
Characterization and motivation of old(er) Thanos vs young Thanos
Return of Ebony Maw! I would have liked to see more of Thanos' Children
Scarlet Witch power-up, and only defeated by aerial bombardment. I'm surprised nobody was showing dying from that.
Now!Cap is cleverer, more adaptable than Then!Cap
Scott Lang is just happy to be here.

Danny Pudi, Ken Jeong, Jim Rash, Yvette Nicole Brown, Aaron Himelstein, Donald Glover, Martin Starr, Brie Larson, Walton Goggins, Nathan Fillion
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:33 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]


I really... don't get the confusion people are having with the time-travel stuff

The time travel seemed pretty straightforward. They can't change their own timeline but they can create new alternate universes, and if they don't put the stones back correctly they create really shitty alternate universes. For example, if they tried to change their past then they'd create an alternate universe where the snap never happened but their own universe would still be shit, so bringing everyone back in the present was the only way to set things up so that there wasn't another extra alternate universe with a massive divergance.

I mean, it's just this, right? There is no way to "go back" through your own particular stream of time (except maybe with the Time Stone); quantum time travel is about traveling to points on the timelines of other dimensions. Evil Nebula can die without affecting Good Nebula because Evil Nebula from Timeline X is an entirely different entity from Good Nebula from Timeline Prime.

I mean it's complicated to write out but actually massively simplifies things in practice; the stones aren't required to be placed back in their universes because of continuity errors but because the loss of their powers in those universes is massively damaging to the flow of time within those specific universes. Likewise, I assume, something as significant/powerful as Mjolnir (or maybe that's just a favor to DARKWORLD!Thor so he doesn't get too bummed not having it).

Whew. OK.

So the last time I felt a genuine, full rush of childlike awe and joy in a Marvel movie was the first Avengers. Some of them before and since were good, even great, but it was that "they are actually doing this oh my god" feeling of that circular shot, of a collection of heroes with established backstories now being allowed to do the damn thing like a proper crossover event.

The thing comics really have, even more than their closest analog (which is of course television and not film), is the weight of history. Characters can appear for a moment without saying anything and carry the emotional implications, relationships, and baggage of their connection to that moment; splash pages can wordlessly tell and conjure a million stories at once. It is genuine universe-building, and it's a thrilling and weird thing that creates a lot of silliness and a lot of real storytelling magic.

The "Avengers assemble" scene had me tearing up with that feeling of weight, with the joy of "oh my god all of this exists, all of these characters mean something" that just felt like it would never end, all the way through that fight sequence. I mean: a mere ten seconds of this movie are devoted to Peter Parker grasping onto flung Mjolnir for dear life, then grabbed and saved by a witch (or was it Captain Marvel? shit I forget), then deposited onto a pegasus flown by a radiant Tess Thompson.

As much as I've been cynical and weary of these movies over the latter half of the decade, moments like that made it absolutely, crazily worth it.

And what I love even more (in a way that might seem contradictory) is that I feel like it's done, now. For me, at least, but I'm sure for some people, too. I might see these movies again but I feel like I actually got to watch the end to the storylines of superheroes, which is not really something comics themselves can ever do convincingly. But RDJ will never play Iron Man in a mainline film again; ditto Chris Evans.

The MCU finally blended the magic of comic fantasy worldbuilding with the emotive, grounded power of film. It's probably the greatest achievement in comic-book film that would be possible if you thought having both parts of that phrase getting full representation was important.

Shit I haven't even thought about the movie from a thematic standpoint just yet. I'm still just basking in this glow. they did the damn thing, holy shit
posted by Kybard at 2:03 PM on April 26 [28 favorites]


I'm still having a lot of trouble with Cap's ending. Not that he went back to Peggy, but that he ended up on the bench. It implies that Cap existed in the same time line as the MCU but didn't root out Hydra, didn't save Bucky, wasn't part of SHIELD, etc, which I don't think fits his character. Yes he wanted a home with people he loved, but he's not going to hide in Peggy's house for fifty years, he's going to fight at her side. Hopefully with Bucky watching his six. They should have just left it to us to imagine a splintered timeline.
posted by saffry at 2:37 PM on April 26 [13 favorites]


Evil Nebula can die without affecting Good Nebula because Evil Nebula from Timeline X is an entirely different entity from Good Nebula from Timeline Prime.

So, how does this work with Steve Rogers? I get that you think it's simple, so you can explain it to me. Steve Prime lives his Captain America life, hops in a time machine, goes back to a point on a timeline in another dimension, grows old in Timeline X, then shows up on a bench in Timeline Prime. Is there an entirely different entity here? Is there a Steve X who is a different entity from Steve Prime even though they were the same entity until he stepped into the time machine? Steve Prime became Steve X? What happened to the Steve who was in Timeline X before Steve Prime showed up?

he ended up on the bench. It implies that Cap existed in the same time line as the MCU

Yes, this. If Steve Prime was just never seen again in Timeline Prime because he was growing old in Timeline X, that would make more sense to me.
posted by Mavri at 2:46 PM on April 26 [3 favorites]


Thanos had the Power stone and was actively using it. I'm going to guess that was enough to put him over the Strongest Avenger.

This is straight outta the comics, where the Power Stone was wielded for a while by Tryco Slatterus, the Champion of the Universe, who's basically the MMA champ of the cosmos. When he's wearing the stone, nobody can beat him; when he takes it off, he's beaten by the She-Hulk, who had been getting jacked for their rematch (it turns out that her strength becomes proportionally greater, so working out as Jennifer Walters can bring her up to Hulk-class strength.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:47 PM on April 26 [6 favorites]


Saffry, I'm kind of with you on that. My take is that Steve did use the suit to get back to the MCU timeline - but he had a while to think about what kind of entrance he wanted to make and decided to go with "retiree" rather than "Avenger". All he had to do was arrive half an hour early with a change of clothes.

Which means one of the alternate realities created over the course of this film is The One Where Captain America Fixes The 20th Century. Steve Prime could have arranged to get there after Steve X went into the ice, so there's no confusion unless/until Steve X is found.
posted by mersen at 3:16 PM on April 26 [10 favorites]


I have so many questions — why was Linda’s phone plan still working? What if someone was snaptured while in a plane, were they returned to that point midair? — but nerd questions are a good portion of the enjoyment of these sort of things. I am overall very pleased. And sad. And thinking of possible Hamilton “... and Peggy” crossover fan art.
posted by rewil at 3:37 PM on April 26 [6 favorites]


No mid-credits scene, of course (and in response to the question way upthread, the last MCU movie that didn’t have on was the Edward Norton Hulk movie) but I did get a kick out of seeing a credit for “Mr. Hemsworth’s Trainer.” I just imagined a guy motivating the actor to drink more milkshakes and polish off a dozen donuts at a sitting.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:44 PM on April 26 [12 favorites]


Rewil, the airplane question was the FIRST question I had, too. Or, presumably building were built or ... I mean ... some of these people will reappear only to instantly perish.
posted by anastasiav at 3:52 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]


I assumed Cap didn't fix the past because it would've created alternate timelines without actually changing his own universe's past in any way. I imagine that knowing any real change is physically impossible would be poison to motivation.
posted by fomhar at 3:52 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]


I assume that Bruce is smart enough using the Infinity Gauntlet to not only bring everyone back, but to bring everyone back safely.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:13 PM on April 26 [11 favorites]


The Nat/Hawkeye 'sacrifice' rubbed me the wrong way as well. I'd have to rewatch either this or Infinity War, but as I recall, the wording the Red Skull gave was something like, "To take the soul stone, you must sacrifice something you love."

I'm pretty sure it wasn't, "To take the soul stone, you need to be nearby while something you love sacrifices itself, while you try desperately to prevent it."
posted by Hatashran at 4:19 PM on April 26 [19 favorites]


I'm assuming that people didn't appear in mid-air, yes, but I doubt the Gauntlet was accounting for now-orphaned babies appearing in empty houses or kids who had the bad luck to be camping with unsnapped parents. Or people who are returned safely to mountains or frozen tundra or the like where there is no longer oxygen supplies or shelter or their vehicle, etc. Unlucky dead people would be turning up for years.
posted by tavella at 4:24 PM on April 26 [6 favorites]


Basically you'd have a whole bunch of renditions of _Open Water_ all over the world, including some with actual scuba divers.
posted by tavella at 4:52 PM on April 26 [3 favorites]


I think it's easiest if you imagine that hulk literally wished for what tony said, i.e. "bring everyone back, don't remove the things we've gained in the meantime, and basically make everything OK again" and the literally infinite power of the five macguffins sorted out the details

and re: oldCap, I guess I read it like saffry did, more or less.

I should clarify that I don't really think that the time-travel mechanics make "sense" per se or in any "survives under extended consideration" manner; I just don't care. it chose to make time travel work in a way that best suited the emotional and circumstantial needs of its character arcs and storytelling (and hung a lampshade on the convenience of it more than once in dialogue, because it's 2019 and all narratives must be a little ironic somewhere I guess). I'm cool with that as a starting point if the movie earns it emotionally, which I thought this one totally did.
posted by Kybard at 4:57 PM on April 26 [11 favorites]


Just got back. It's definitely miles better than Infinity war, and I didn't actually fidget at the length like I thought I would. But damn, I felt that it was so predictable. Pretty much nothing surprised me (except maybe Pepper in an iron suit, because I'd totally forgotten that part of her arc, just like I'd forgotten who the teenage boy at the funeral was). I appreciate that they were going for a really ambitious culminating project, but I feel like all of the stitching together was really visible, if that makes sense.

Ultimately, I felt like it was a really weird mix of fan service (discussions of Cap's ass! Everyone gets a touchy-feely conversation/closure! Girl power during capture-the-glove!) and fan fuck you (Putting Hemsworth in a fat suit and then fat-shaming jokes; no real time for Steve and Bucky; killing Natasha). It did make me appreciate Hemsworth's acting--and comedic timing--even more, at least.

Totally random question: I've lost track of filming timelines. Was ScarJo pregnant during the early "5 years later" scenes? I felt like they were always hiding her midsection in slightly obvious ways.
posted by TwoStride at 5:04 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]


Also I'm super disappointed that a cat-flerkin was not an essential part of vanquishing Thanos.
posted by TwoStride at 5:11 PM on April 26 [38 favorites]


the man of twists and turns: Other appreciations: Frigga's wisdom, and also "Eat a salad!"

Really? You thought a running fat joke was worth appreciating? Poisoned the whole film for me.
posted by tzikeh at 8:54 PM on April 26 [13 favorites]


My family and I sat beside a gentleman who came unaccompanied. We were wearing the same Captain America T-shirts, which I mentioned in a friendly way, and he blushed and looked at his lap and tried to make a reply but failed. He may have been developmentally delayed, I don’t know. His self-care was spotty. He seemed to be very shy.

But then, as the movie began, he instantly became a kind of ur-fan self-talking narration, punctuating the thrills and chills of the whole ride with startled grunts and orgasmic mutterings of, “Oh my god, oh my god!”

I think in just about any other circumstance I’d be tempted to throttle him.

But for Endgame the purity of his zeal just made me smile. He spotted and mumbled his report of every Easter egg. He gasped, and chortled, and snorted. In the big moments he squealed. It was infectious.

Anyway, TL;DR I’m usually grouchy about people who talk in the cinema, but sitting beside this dude was my privilege. He was all of us.
posted by Construction Concern at 9:02 PM on April 26 [21 favorites]


Anybody know where the scenes at New Asgard are filmed? It looked very familiar.

Film itself: pretty great. I’m happy with it. It did approximately what I expected, but did it well. (I think I liked Logan better for an end of an era superhero movie. )
posted by nat at 9:16 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]


I loved it! But I have to get some venting out of the way.

I don’t care about Tony’s relationship with his father and these movies go on and on about it. I just don’t care. And oh my god his death scene went on forever, the weirdly staged funeral went on forever, dragging it on like it’s the end of LotR doesn’t make me care about him. But his was the only name that got a huge cheer from the audience during the final credits, so maybe I’m in the minority there.

Why did Hawkeye wait until she was this old to teach his daughter archery? That was definitely the character’s first archery lesson; he was showing her how to stand, her elbow was way up in the air, etc. I would think she would have started as a little kid.

I was hoping for more Captain Marvel. They could have cut a good 20 minutes of Tony and put her in instead.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:16 PM on April 26 [7 favorites]


Regarding Old Steve:

If you've ever read or seen Crichton's Timeline the rules are identical (right down to shrinking real small). Consider, for a moment, that with quantum time travel you're not travelling through time so much as travelling to an alternate reality that reflects your past. Secondly, when alternate realities are involved it's not just one group of people travelling to alternate realities, it's countless alternate versions of the avengers travelling to countless alternate "pasts".

So Steve A, the one we've known and loved in these movies, travels to a "past" parallel universe and decides to stay there. Meanwhile, Steve B travels to a "past" parallel universe which just so happens to be the past of the world Steve A just left. This actually occurs countless times in countless almost identical alternate worlds. The important thing to remember is the Steve that just left isn't the same person as the old Steve on the bench, but is an alternate version identical in every important way. So if Bucky's programming had kicked back in and he abruptly murdered Steve instead of watching Steve leave, old Steve would still be sitting on the park bench, feeling increasingly confused. In fact, given the countless possible alternate universes this exact scenario had to have happened.

My only complaint about this is once you enter the realm of countless alternate universes it's hard to care about what happens to them. There's already countless alternate worlds where Dormammu devours the Earth, where the Avengers lose the battle of New York, where Ultron reigns supreme, where every conceivable bad outcome happens. So who cares if you happen to screw things up by stealing another world's infinity stones? Who cares if you go back and live the life stolen from you and don't bother to use your knowledge of the future to keep Hydra from infecting Shield? Returning the stones (and Mjolnir) to the worlds you borrowed them from is a nice gesture but if you're going to widen your morality to include "help people in alternate universes" you're going to be very very busy for the rest of linear time, probably longer.

(P.S. I now realize there has to be a scene of Steve handing the Soul Stone back to Red Skull, followed by an awkward pause before Red points out this isn't going to bring Natasha back and returning the Stone to Vormir is an extremely weird thing to do and is probably not going to make anything better for anyone in any possible universe and in fact guarantees the eventual senseless death of at least one innocent person.)
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 10:18 PM on April 26 [14 favorites]


Possibly best moment: repurposing of legendarily controversial bit of dialogue: Cap saying, “Hail Hydra.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:48 PM on April 26 [60 favorites]


I loved every moment of this... except the fat suit and the fat jokes. God, I could have lived without that.
posted by sarcasticah at 11:51 PM on April 26 [21 favorites]


and even with all those great female characters did they manage to even pass the Bechdel test?

Yes. Nebula and Gamora. Pepper and Morgan. Er.. Nebula and Nebula.

I mean, there should have been more. But it didn’t all out fail.
posted by greermahoney at 12:25 AM on April 27 [9 favorites]


I'm pretty sure it wasn't, "To take the soul stone, you need to be nearby while something you love sacrifices itself, while you try desperately to prevent it."

I was pretty worried Clint was going to wake up without the stone, and Red Skull would be like - you didn’t sacrifice anything. She sacrificed herself. Sorry.
posted by greermahoney at 12:30 AM on April 27 [11 favorites]


I SCREAMED with unexpected delight and righteous anger when all the women joined forces to carry the gauntlet across the battlefield. Thank you Marvel for acknowledging that you have screwed over your female fans for decades, we deserved that moment.

Yeah, I see how the scene could be read as female fan pandering. I chose to view it as a fuck you from Marvel to all of the boys-only club sign-holders who’ve been whining for the last couple decades that women fans aren’t real fans and the only point of a female superhero is as wank material. And so many of the women in that shot have upcoming movies or shows slated. So fuck your boys club.

They probably meant it as pandering but I like my version better.
posted by greermahoney at 1:07 AM on April 27 [57 favorites]


Metafilter: Still sitting on the park bench, feeling increasingly confused.
posted by Paul Slade at 2:30 AM on April 27 [19 favorites]


If the dungeon denizens of the darker corners of Reddit do not recognise that they are n00bmaster69, then the joke is even funnier.
posted by Molesome at 2:36 AM on April 27 [18 favorites]


I saw it last night and parts of it are still rattling around in my brain-pan.

The Time Travel was bobbins - but bobbins I can forgive.

Some parts felt flat because I intensely dislike/or don't care about certain actors/characters. I know this is my problem not a problem with the film per se.

The more I think about Thor's depiction and the way it was framed as one film long fat-joke just leaves a more intensely sour taste in the aftermath of watching the more time I think about it. It was so totally unnecessary. And the more I read about people defending it as 'not a big deal' the more I hate .. everyone involved in that decision.

I'm going to see it again at the cinema because I was over-primed for an emotional pummelling during the first watch, and so was a little frazzled.

Next time I can just sit back and enjoy the actual film instead of being primed to ugly cry.

Overall I think that it was mostly a successful end to a decade long storytelling experiment the likes of which (even if copied) won't ever be seen/experienced in quite the same way again.
posted by Faintdreams at 4:15 AM on April 27 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the fat suit was kind of not a great look overall for the makers of the movie.

On the other hand, literally in the lobby before the movie, my wife was talking about unnecessary movie remakes and sequels and how they should make a Big Lebowski 2, because of the obvious pointlessness of such an idea, and then we saw Thor with his unkempt hair and she leans over to me and whispers THERE’S THE SEQUEL

then he gets called “Lebowski” in the movie and my wife and I just quietly high-five
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:38 AM on April 27 [26 favorites]


Those stones really tied the universe together, man.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:53 AM on April 27 [67 favorites]


My only complaint about this is once you enter the realm of countless alternate universes it's hard to care about what happens to them.

I'll recommend Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths in which a character confronts exactly this dilemma. "Sure, I'm evil. And on another Earth, I'm good. Good, evil: it doesn't matter."
posted by SPrintF at 5:29 AM on April 27 [5 favorites]


i'm still working thru my feels i even did a video of me colouring while talking about the movie. second viewing didn't feel as overwhelming as the first, though the audience for this sort of thing makes up for an integral 20% of the enjoyment i feel.

re: bechdel test - there's also the check-in conversation when okoye pointed out to nat they really don't need to do anything about the earthquake.
posted by cendawanita at 6:00 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]


Laura Bradley in Vanity Fair: How Avengers: Endgame Failed Black Widow.
posted by TwoStride at 6:05 AM on April 27 [7 favorites]


If I'm a marvel villain I'm definitely going to be harvesting the infinity stones from a few dozen universes. Two gauntlets, a belt, a crown, necklaces, boots etc. Then what's up?
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:08 AM on April 27 [5 favorites]


It'd be like infinity x 100!
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:09 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]


As a parent, I was mystified by Clint's insistence on being the one to sacrifice himself. I would have expected him and Natasha both to agree pretty readily that the one with young children ought to be the one to stay alive. Not because having kids makes you worth more or gives you more to live for, but because your kids need you. Of course Clint's top priority would be bringing his kids back, but you'd expect staying alive to take care of them to be a close second. I really liked Natasha and hated to see her die but I have a hard time seeing why anyone would think it should have been Clint instead.
posted by Redstart at 6:31 AM on April 27 [5 favorites]


Hawkeye and Natasha were both trying to sacrifice themselves to atone for their past sins as much as save their friend. I didn't mind that Natasha succeeded but I thought she deserved a mention at Tony's funeral, that was a glaring omission.

I thought LebowskiThor at first was just funny, but the longer it played out, I really found myself sympathizing with him more than the other Avengers. Maybe because I could relate to his way of mourning more than I could the others. And I liked that moment when he summoned Moljnir and it came and he seemed so genuinely surprised. People may complain about fat-shaming, but you know the next Comic Con will have a thousand Fat Thors proudly walking through San Diego in all their messy, bathrobe, flip flop glory.

greermahoney -- I think I like your version better too!
Yeah, I see how the scene could be read as female fan pandering. I chose to view it as a fuck you from Marvel to all of the boys-only club sign-holders who’ve been whining for the last couple decades that women fans aren’t real fans and the only point of a female superhero is as wank material. And so many of the women in that shot have upcoming movies or shows slated. So fuck your boys club.

They probably meant it as pandering but I like my version better.

posted by pjsky at 6:42 AM on April 27 [18 favorites]


Why was Thor so jovial at the end? He didn’t actually get anybody back did he? Other than some anonymous Asgardians. And I suppose he’s relieved not to be king anymore. But his parents, brother, best friend: all still dead. I found it odd.
posted by orrnyereg at 6:44 AM on April 27 [2 favorites]


Orrnyreg - Loki is still alive. In this timeline he escaped New York with the space stone at the end of the first Avengers Assemble.

As for everyone of the Asgardians who survived Thor: Ragnarock - those weren't anonymous Asgardian's that's the last of the Asgardian race in it's entirety.

Also Thor can stop feeling guilty and unworthy and start the long process of healing as well as go off and find out who he is aside from being Odin's Son and King.
posted by Faintdreams at 6:53 AM on April 27 [11 favorites]


Loki is still alive. In this timeline he escaped New York with the space stone at the end of the first Avengers Assemble.

My understanding is no, that’s now a different timeline. Everywhere they made a change, a universe split happened. Loki is still dead in our Thor’s timeline.

As for everyone of the Asgardians who survived Thor: Ragnarock

He also did not get back everyone who escaped In Ragnarok. Note that Heimdall didn’t return. Thanos killed half out in space, then half again with the snap. Apparently, only those from the snap came back. So... Thor did lose half the survivors from Asgard.

Thor got the shittiest end of this whole 22–movie stick. Sorry, Thor. You’re one of my favs. You deserve better.
posted by greermahoney at 7:01 AM on April 27 [22 favorites]


Yeah, Loki and Heimdall didn’t get snapped so I think that means they’re perma-dead.
posted by orrnyereg at 7:08 AM on April 27 [2 favorites]


Re: Loki - he's alive, he escaped with the Tesseract back in 2012, and we know it's true because he has an upcoming TV series about all his wacky misadventures being present at important historical moments in our Earth's history that takes place after this film ends.
posted by tzikeh at 7:23 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]


he's alive, he escaped with the Tesseract back in 2012,
Different timeline/universe.

we know it's true because he has an upcoming TV series about all his wacky misadventures being present at important historical moments in our Earth's history that takes place after this film ends.

Do we know it takes place after this film ends? I thought the creators were being pretty hush-mouthed about plot-points. The series could take place before the events of Endgane. If not, then that show seems to be taking place in a different timeline. Because our Loki had to have done the events that lead up to him being killed on that ship. No one else escaped their fate by the changes the avengers made. Thor still has his glass eye. He and Valkyrie are still friends. Those events all happened. Endgame handwaved over the paradox problem of time travel by creating whole new universes each time something changes. So I really think Loki is alive in that other universe the Avengers created when they went back to New York. But our Loki is still dead.

(Now, if Loki soooomehow pulled another death fake out and Thanos just thought he killed the real Loki, ok. But if so, that’s pretty terrible writing, considering even Thanos said that didn’t happen.)
posted by greermahoney at 8:20 AM on April 27 [1 favorite]


Hawkeye and Natasha were both trying to sacrifice themselves to atone for their past sins as much as save their friend

In watching some "Endgame Easter Egg" videos this morning, I was reminded that waayyy back at the start Nat says that Clint was sent to kill her but "made a different call". I wonder if that backstory informed the decision to have Nat be the one that dies - both that she felt he should stay alive to reunite with his family, and the concept that (in her mind) she's been living on extra time for years due to his decision, and now that time had come to an end.

Either way, I still don't like it from a fan perspective, and feel the character was not well served. But from an in-universe view (as well as the fact that I'm SURE Nat could kill Clint 10 times out of 10 if it came to it) that it sort of makes an amount of sense.
posted by anastasiav at 8:36 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]


When it comes to time travel in comic books, I always think of this 1964 Jimmy Olsen story. As Jimmy arrives in 1,000 BC, the caption reads: "Shortly, in the distant past."
posted by Paul Slade at 8:47 AM on April 27 [5 favorites]


One of the biggest cheers in the theater last night erupted when Stan Lee made his cameo appearance.
posted by Roger Pittman at 8:59 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]


Loki is still alive. In this timeline he escaped New York with the space stone at the end of the first Avengers Assemble

I know some disagree that Loki in our timeline is alive, but meh, it's all jibber jabber. To me the big deal is that Lokis from the battle of new york is alive and hopping around. Not "oh ok we're family Loki" but "I'm gonna manipulate you to get what I want Loki" and that's great!

As a parent, I was mystified by Clint's insistence on being the one to sacrifice himself.

He's been off a muderous rampage, so I can get that Hawkeye possible feels like he lost his way and shouldn't be a parent anymore.

Still pissed about Nat not getting a big funeral and notice, since she sacrificed herself the same as Tony.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:28 AM on April 27 [3 favorites]


I will be a bit upset if Loki appears alive again because of a change to the "past" since that would be entirely outside the way the movie presents time travel. Old Steve gets to be there at the end because he's always been there. There's always been a Steve Rodgers from an alternate universe living his life in our universe. But there is no alternate Loki, I doubt the Tesseract lets you move between different universes. In an alternate 2012 New York Loki escapes with the Tesseract and while events there play out very differently than they did in our universe they don't affect our universe in any way.

This is why "just go kill Thanos as a baby" doesn't work, because you're changing events in an alternate universe. The Avengers can't change their past, so they have to focus on undoing the damage Thanos did. I also reckon Tony snapping away alternate 2014 Thanos and his army just made the universe he left behind a lot more pleasant. Also presumably 2014 Alternate Gamora skulks away in our 2023 world to turn back up in GotG 3
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 9:34 AM on April 27 [2 favorites]


In an alternate 2012 New York Loki escapes with the Tesseract and while events there play out very differently than they did in our universe they don't affect our universe in any way.

Pretty sure Loki alive affects Disney’s bottom line in a positive way, so they’ll put that Infinity glove on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:26 AM on April 27 [2 favorites]


They're all constantly branching, separate, new parallel universes. It's tucked into a stream of comic book technobabble, but Tony actually namedrops David Deutsche at one point.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:26 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]


It was such a nice wrap up.
I was saying that it would be cool if marvel just stopped making avengers universe films and started fresh.
A whole new separate universe kicked off by a retro futurist 60s fantastic four.

Also miles Morales Spider-man can be in it.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 10:47 AM on April 27 [7 favorites]


Well, I for one always interpreted that budge as a sign that Cap could have lifted Mjolnir then, too. But as soon as he realized that, he chose not to, in order to avoid... complicating things with Thor and the rest of the gang.

Great minds.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:51 AM on April 27 [3 favorites]


I wondered if the infinity stones were still around at the end, and I think they are. One, because Tilda the Ancient One made the time stone's existence seem incredibly important, and two, I mean, why not leave that open for later stories?
posted by Pronoiac at 10:57 AM on April 27


Just got home from a second viewing. I’m wondering what exactly Tony was thinking when he snapped his fingers because it seems clear that Gamora got dusted along with everything Thanos brought from 2014. So she isn’t going to be in any future Guardians sequels.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:07 AM on April 27


it seems clear that Gamora got dusted along with everything Thanos brought from 2014.

I don’t think that’s clear. We didn’t see her get dusted. They would have played that up. She’s too important not to give her at least an ash scene. And Quill is searching for her, per his screen in the ship at the end of Endgame. My guess is finding her is part of the plot of GotG3.
posted by greermahoney at 11:25 AM on April 27 [8 favorites]


Yes, I think a snap that targeted Thanos army would not include Gamora, since she was already working against him.
posted by saffry at 11:51 AM on April 27


When I first saw Civil War, I was amazed at the influence that the paintball episodes of Community had on the visual style (and clarity) of the fight scenes, especially the big airport fight scene. I later found out that the paintball episodes were what caught Kevin Feige’s eye, and convinced him that the Russo brothers could pull off the biggest chapters in this phase of the MCU.

In Endgame, I was delighted to see the thorough influence of the Community S3 episode “Remedial Chaos Theory”—most notably, a similar visual cue to show not just travel back in time (the blue tunnel effect), but also to a different quantum reality (visually taking a path that forks away from the ‘main’ tunnel while traveling back).

I also sense that Endgame benefits enormously from the influence of Dan Harmon’s Basic Story Structure on Joe and Anthony Russo.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:09 PM on April 27 [12 favorites]


Since the comic universe already gave us Fridged, when a main characters motivation / turning point / whatever is the murder of their girlfriend for no other reason than that (and who only seems to exist for that.

I suggest we use Vormir’d as when a female main character is sacrificed and treated as a minor plot point around male suffering and their grief. Twice now it’s happened.

Natasha ran what’s left of the fucking Avengers for five years while Tony got to go off and retire in the woods. She gave her life not knowing if it would work, he realized he could make it work if he gave his life. One got a huge funeral, the other got two people hugging by the lake.
posted by mrzarquon at 1:50 PM on April 27 [42 favorites]


Having a second wreath in the lake, with Natasha’s name on it when they panned up from Tony’s could have symbolized so much and put just enough in their to acknowledge Tony wasn’t the only sacrifice and that she was being remembered by everyone. Wouldn’t have detracted from the scenes main point of “this is the end of the Iron Man Saga.”
posted by mrzarquon at 1:54 PM on April 27 [21 favorites]


World population was one half what it is now in 1960. So it seemed a little odd that the place was so dead quiet.

It was surprising to hear so many people crying in a Marvel movie. (I did get something in my eye over Natasha.)

I'm really glad I peed first.
posted by Bee'sWing at 2:01 PM on April 27 [1 favorite]


Re: crying, my 7 year old son Fleebnork Jr. sobbed big crocodile tears when Tony died. Big feels, man.
posted by Fleebnork at 2:33 PM on April 27 [1 favorite]


1) I prefer to think that Natasha’s big funeral happened first and off screen.

2) while I didn’t appreciate the fat jokes made at Thor’s expense, it was validating for me to see this character who embodies strength and godliness be affected by trauma in visible physical ways. And validating again that they didn’t put him through a slim-down training montage before the fight - at the end of the movie he looked the same but his heart was lighter. I found that pretty powerful but it took me a day or so after viewing to get there.
posted by annathea at 2:49 PM on April 27 [46 favorites]


One thing they could do is have cap with the infinity gauntlet show up right after thanos throws Thor into space, resurrect all the dead asgardians, and tell them to law low for five or six years to avoid crashing the timeline. You've got an unspecified amount of time with an infinitely powerful captain america rushing through history and across the universe doing Kirby-knows-what, you can fit a lot of handwaving in that space.
posted by fomhar at 4:20 PM on April 27 [5 favorites]


Why was Thor so jovial at the end? He didn’t actually get anybody back did he?

He got to hug his mom! And she basically told him he is still worthy being the person he is, not the person he thinks people want him to be. And Mjolnir confirmed it!

I don't think you can overestimate the power of no matter how badly you screw up, you can still pick up the hammer enchanted with your father's idea of worthiness. And then he had what he felt was the biggest screw-up ever and nobody to tell him different.
posted by straight at 4:28 PM on April 27 [44 favorites]


You've got an unspecified amount of time with an infinitely powerful captain america rushing through history and across the universe doing Kirby-knows-what, you can fit a lot of handwaving in that space.

One change from the comics that I think really worked is that the Infinity Gauntlet is not just a thing anyone can put on and instantly become omnipotent. I think even wearing the gauntlet, the stones don't do anything unless you will them to (the only explanation for how the Guardians/Avengers were able to have a chance against him on Titan). And no mere human being could wield even one stone, much less put on the gauntlet and do anything he wanted.
posted by straight at 4:30 PM on April 27 [1 favorite]


Gah! I just can’t wait to see it again!
posted by greermahoney at 4:37 PM on April 27


The problem with Natasha is that she's the one Avenger you can't imagine ever retiring. She's gonna die an Avenger at some point. And if you need to give the character some closure I guess her dying in the job shouldn't happen off screen?

Now that's mostly because they hadn't bothered to develop anything else about her character, so it's still a problem that she gets killed off at the end, but I think the mistakes were made earlier and they didn't leave themselves many options at the end.

I think the entire Soul Stone deal is the one part of this story that I think is completely bad and needs major re-working.
posted by straight at 4:40 PM on April 27 [1 favorite]


One thing they could do is have cap with the infinity gauntlet show up right after thanos throws Thor into space, resurrect all the dead asgardians, and tell them to law low for five or six years to avoid crashing the timeline.

Well they already dismantled the thing and returned the stones, so that doesn’t seem likely.

But that would create a new universe in which the Asgardians come back, but in our universe nothing would change except for Cap would go missing for a few moments.

Also, do we think Cap could wield the gauntlet without dying? Especially at his now advanced age? (I doubt you mean Falcon!Cap, sine he’s entirely human and couldn’t wield it.)
posted by greermahoney at 4:43 PM on April 27


I really like when they drop references to the source comics, but aren't beholden to them. So seeing Hulk hold up however zillion tons of earth on his shoulders like he did in Secret Wars was a cool image. So was hearing Thor namedrop the "Asgardians of the Galaxy" - a comic that has only been out since last September and which is a hell of a good portmanteau. The only thing missing was Cap referencing Hickman's Infinity series and saying "This is an Avengers World" when the "Avengers assemble" phrase was finally dropped.
posted by thecjm at 4:49 PM on April 27 [2 favorites]


And is no one going to mention Korg was pretty much wearing one of Taika's Aloha shirts?
posted by thecjm at 4:51 PM on April 27 [15 favorites]


It's also important to remember these are movies imbued with all the story nonsense of comic books, so there's plenty of ways to bring people back from the dead that don't involve alternate realities or infinity stones. Maybe the Natasha we saw die was a Doombot.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 4:51 PM on April 27 [6 favorites]


Maybe the Natasha we saw die was a Doombot.

Huh. I can just hear Dr. Doom now. "This world is mine to rule. I will not allow these alien savages to have it."
posted by Roger Pittman at 5:03 PM on April 27 [3 favorites]


I was really amazed that even though I had guessed a whole lot of possible plot points and incidental things, I was still constantly being surprised (and mostly delighted). Hands up everyone who predicted they would get the time stone by Bruce Banner having a conversation with the Ancient One and convincing her to hand it over.

Like I had thought maybe they'll go back in time and do something, but I didn't see the very, very comic-book Avengers trope of splitting into little teams, allowing you to mix people together in ways you hadn't seen.

And I was going off ahead of time about "I can't believe how many significant characters are going to be in this movie." But wow I did not expect how overwhelmingly comprehensive they were going to be at it. Robert Redford! Renee Russo! Frank Grillo! Jarvis! I can't see how a movie could ever possibly pander to me harder than this one did.

I think my only real disappointment here is that the final battle where everyone shows up was so dark. I felt like they never quite gave us the shot I was hoping for of every single Avenger assembled. Something like that amazing full-page-spread of all six Avengers fighting Hydra in the woods at the beginning of Age of Ultron.

And I really would have loved that scene so much more if, hearing Sam on coms, Steve had at that moment said "Avengers Assemble" and then having the amazement of *everybody* showing up as if answering his call.
posted by straight at 5:08 PM on April 27 [7 favorites]


Having unabashedly enjoyed Brie Larson in Captain Marvel, I was a bit disappointed with what she was given to do in this story. I enjoyed the super-powered bits but felt like her personality didn’t get to come through very much. About the only time I caught a glimpse of her solo movie charisma was after Peter introduced himself to her just before the ladies took the gauntlet into the end-zone. On the other hand, she’s one of the new people so presumably she’ll have plenty of future opportunities to be quirky and fun in Phase 4.

On that subject, I keep getting these YouTube videos in my feed that are complaining about how Brie Larson is just the worst and everybody hates her and I don’t fucking get it. It seems to be mostly douche-bros with chips on their shoulders about whatever they think SJWs are or whatever, but come on, what the hell could she possibly have done to provoke this bullshit?
posted by wabbittwax at 5:12 PM on April 27 [14 favorites]


I assumed they'd be trying to sneak around to get the stones when they could plausibly disappear without affecting the timeline, but nope they just beat starlord around the head and take one. How about arriving a week earlier instead?

They had to arrive at a moment they were absolutely sure where and when the stone is. It had probably been there for a while, but they didn't know for sure. And Nebula probably considered it completely unguarded, not counting Star Lord as any more trouble than those little lizards. (But what about those bounty hunters who were literally right behind him?)
posted by straight at 5:14 PM on April 27 [1 favorite]


> "... what the hell could she possibly have done to provoke this bullshit?"

Be a woman.
posted by kyrademon at 5:15 PM on April 27 [46 favorites]


It's cliche to say "the MCU has a villain problem", and while it's true I think it's more a function of villains being inherently difficult in storytelling (especially when you don't want your story to have the "dark 'n' gritty" vibe), the same way that, e.g, endings are always difficult. But it is a shame that so few of them ever persist, because their absence made this final conflict seem that much less balanced. (In fact I think literally all the antagonists at that point had been killed by our heroes in either this or other films, and they had no particular new abilities or technology this time around.) If even one of the core Avengers had some recurring villain they finally defeated in the big battle, it would have been pretty satisfying.

Pronoiac: Joe Russo, one of the directors, was the man talking about losing his male partner at grief counseling.

Did that character lose a partner? I just remember him describing a date with a prospective new one. Actually, that was the specific moment the film started to win me over because it was grappling with the real implications of such a post-apocalyptic world: the line "He cried when they took the menu. I cried when they brought out dessert" or however it went. There would be a lot of spontaneous crying, for sure.

xiw: I assumed they'd be trying to sneak around to get the stones when they could plausibly disappear without affecting the timeline, but nope they just beat starlord around the head and take one. How about arriving a week earlier instead?

I think the only character who said they should avoid making big changes to the past was Scott, or at least a non-scientist? But I'm not sure. (Oof, just writing "non-scientist" made me wish so hard that Shiri had been spared and we got to see her working with Bruce and snarking at Tony in a half-staffed, Used-Future Wakanda. Come to think of it, why was there no staff to help manage the time machine? It was literally just Avengers running the entire compound; does Bruce have no assistants?) Anyway, knocking out Quill did give them that electro-lockpick to get in, so the timing of that specifically had some logic.

wabbitwax: what the hell could she [Brie Larson] possibly have done to provoke this bullshit?"

kyrademon: Be a woman.

And furthermore, she's pretty explicit about a belief in diversity both within the films and among film critics and other media, and you'd better believe that inflicted a bitterness the douche-bros will take to their graves.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:28 PM on April 27 [6 favorites]


I'm sorry there were unnecessary fat jokes in the movie, but I felt like the movie itself wasn't treating Thor gaining weight as a joke. If it were just a gag, then Thor would have been transformed into classic chiseled Thor when he grasped Mjolnir. But no, that was the bod he fought Thanos with. Thor is still a godlike hero (and his mom still loves him) even if he has gained weight.
posted by straight at 6:34 PM on April 27 [50 favorites]


Returning the stones (and Mjolnir) to the worlds you borrowed them from

Ohhh. When I saw Cap with Mjolnir at the end I was like, wait, so I guess he's just Worthy Captain America Wielder of Shield and Magic Hammer now? But of course he was just taking it back (all by itself a good reason it had to be him that did it).
posted by straight at 6:39 PM on April 27 [3 favorites]


Question about the Ancient One’s presentation: She says if you remove an Infinity Stone from the timeline, a new timeline splits off that is defenseless against the darkness. Is this why, five years after Thanos destroys all the stones, New York and San Francisco looked more like 90% of the population had vanished than 50%? Even with the population of Manhattan whittled down to a mere 800,000, you’d think there’d still be a few lights on in the buildings?

But I come not to nitpick Endgame, but to praise it. A fully satisfying conclusion to following this series for 11 years. Totally going to see it again this week.

I thought Thor’s weight gain worked for the character and his story. He reminded me of his old, lost, windbag friend Volstagg (who by the way was the only representation for fatness in the MCU for 10 years, until Ned Leeds). Yes, his belly was presented as a joke, but it helped drive home that the experience had changed him, in a more dramatic way than giving him an angsty haircut (coughClintcough). And even fat, he was still the most powerful Avenger and as worthy a warrior as ever. The various cracks from his friends, however, were gratuitous (tubby, cheez whiz, eat a salad). It was much funnier when they were reacting to how drunken and erratic he was acting. Though let’s not forget Infinity War also goes for fat jokes (when the Guardians rescue Thor, everyone comments that Star-Lord is putting on weight), so work on that, Russos. (And for the record, if I were forced to cosplay an Avenger, fat Thor would fit me the best.)

On preview: What straight said, much more succinctly.
posted by ejs at 6:40 PM on April 27 [4 favorites]


I didn't mind dad bod Thor. I agree some of the jokes came off as body-shaming, but this movie didn't do the usual thing of having him get back into shape either magically or via effort. He's just the person he became thanks to the way he dealt with his trauma, and despite his physical appearance he was still every bit he hero he's always been. That's what the movie is saying, and it's not necessary for all the characters in a movie to agree with the message of the movie.

Honestly, it's the closest he's ever been to the original Thor, who like most Norse gods was a God of Partying as much as a God of Thunder. The only major difference is Norse Thor is a redhead.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:46 PM on April 27 [21 favorites]


ejs: Question about the Ancient One’s presentation: She says if you remove an Infinity Stone from the timeline, a new timeline splits off that is defenseless against the darkness. Is this why, five years after Thanos destroys all the stones, New York and San Francisco looked more like 90% of the population had vanished than 50%?

I think that was supposed to be knock-on effects. Like, you can't actually kill "just half" the world population, because we're an interdependent species. There would be millions upon millions dying from neglect, suicide, etc. (This is something Thanos, probably because he's a sociopath, pretty explicitly doesn't get until after the fact, hence prompting his new "just kill everyone" plan). It's mentioned that most governments have failed. The 90% devastation we see is possibly optimistic.

The lack of Dormammu and similar demonic beings taking the easy pickings is a bit mysterious -- maybe they were affected just as hard? It did hit Asgardians; maybe Dormammu was Snapped or is helping his fellow beasties in their own support group.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:59 PM on April 27 [7 favorites]


Was just reading IMDb Trivia, as one does, and found this funny: Tony calls Thor “Lebowski;” I wonder if he ever remarked on his old business partner Obadiah Stane’s resemblance to the Dude?

(Though maybe in the MCU, the Dude was played by Simon Williams.)
posted by ejs at 7:08 PM on April 27 [4 favorites]


Maybe all she can see is a vague future without the time stone and it's simply what would happen if Strange doesn't have the stone when Dormammu invades. Maybe it isn't actually necessary for anything besides that, so maybe we're good? We'll find out in Dr. Strange 2.
posted by straight at 7:09 PM on April 27 [1 favorite]


Just saw it this morning. Two immediate observations:

1) Favorite Line: "So... He's an idiot."

2) This would be a really obscure reference by the writers if it was indeed intentional, but did anyone get a flashback to this sketch by The State during the scene with Lang, Banner and the tacos?
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 7:23 PM on April 27 [9 favorites]


I know Marvel doesn’t do the digital shorts anymore but I would love to see a brief vignette of Steve admitting to Peggy that he once kissed her not-yet-born-for-several-decades great-niece.
posted by ejs at 8:01 PM on April 27 [6 favorites]


I thought Thor’s weight gain worked for the character and his story. He reminded me of his old, lost, windbag friend Volstagg

Yeah, I am another old fat fellow who didn’t have an issue with Thor. Focusing on “fat shaming” and the like seems to miss the message of the movie: the original Avengers are over. And as an aside, was that a fat suit or was it Hemsworth’s head pasted onto someone with a more Harvey Pekareque physique, the way the pre-serum Steve Rogers was made to be 5’4” and thin?

Anyway, the Avengers who have been the core of the last decade of MCU movies have all become what happens to all of us if enough time passes: Tony and Natasha are dead (the latter probably only until her solo movie); Steve is like 117; Clint is retired (and haunted by his five years as a murder hobo); Thor has stopped being Point Break and started being The Dude; and the Hulk has lost his essential attribute of rage (I did laugh out loud at BannerHulk trying to smash during the Battle of New York, denting a car roof and unconvincingly kicking at a motorcycle). Suffice it to say that when Galactus arrives, it will not be these folks as the first line of defence.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:14 PM on April 27 [18 favorites]


I know Marvel doesn’t do the digital shorts anymore but I would love to see a brief vignette of Steve admitting to Peggy that he once kissed her not-yet-born-for-several-decades great-niece.

Or maybe just a thirty second one where Steve returns the Soul stone and punches Red Skull for old time's sake.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 8:18 PM on April 27 [23 favorites]


I would really like a tv show that looks at how people and the world deal with those different five years, the knowledge that an alien creature snapped half the universe out of existence and that there are plenty more aliens roaming around. Where's the Netflix limited series for that?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:52 PM on April 27 [10 favorites]


How the heck is Iron Man supposed to have legerdemained the stones from Thanos at the end? I was stumped by that.
posted by chinston at 9:13 PM on April 27 [4 favorites]


That gauntlet was Stark tech. The question is why it didn't fly all by itself back to Tony. I'd suggest that it would be in character for him to have built in a "quick give me the stones" emergency protocol, but given all the other magic nanotech stuff his armor has been doing in these two movies, I think they've set up his capabilities that he could make the gauntlet do pretty much anything if he can get in contact and control it.
posted by straight at 9:28 PM on April 27 [11 favorites]


It was a big giveaway that Thanos could put the gauntlet on without any surge of power threatening to overwhelm him, but Thanos of 2017 didn't know that.
posted by straight at 9:30 PM on April 27 [5 favorites]


Suffice it to say that when Galactus arrives, it will not be these folks as the first line of defence.

I am very much hoping that they get something like Avengers Academy going.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:34 PM on April 27 [1 favorite]


Also, another Captain Chunkstyle here who wasn't offended by Dad-Bod Thor, and saw the whole thing (including the less-flattering comments in the movie about it) as metacommentary on how these actors, the guys especially, have to get super-jacked for the movies and what that's like for them. I mean, they get paid a lot and all (or at least they did once the movies turned out to be big hits), but the process doesn't sound like a lot of fun. And now they can set that aside.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:40 PM on April 27 [15 favorites]


100% on the mailbox taco sketch! Instantly recognizable, I thought. Yes, yes.

And how much do we need a tv series with Valkyrie as small town mayor/king, solving crimes.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:54 PM on April 27 [14 favorites]


I’m very much there for Valkyrie meets Murder She Wrote / Jonathan Creek, Nordic edition.

There’s a whole three episode arc of disappearing lutefisk waiting to be made.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:57 PM on April 27 [21 favorites]


I loved what they did with Nebula. Guardians 2 really spelled out what a horror show her life with Thanos had been, and the way the machines in her mind automatically synced up with Thanos's computer network was yet one more creepy twist of what he had done to her.

She didn't get to kill Thanos, but maybe she did the next best thing when she killed the version of herself that still worshiped him.

(And Karen Gillan has done a phenomenal job interpreting that character. I'm really glad she seems set up to be part of the Guardians in their next movie, and it's really interesting that they now also have a version of Gamora who isn't in love with Quill and who hasn't really reconciled with Nebula.)
posted by straight at 10:01 PM on April 27 [33 favorites]


I know this movie is built upon contrivance over contrivance, such that you can’t point to any one event as being the deciding factor, but I do love that everything that happens in this movie is only possible because a rat crawls over Ant-Man’s van’s dashboard and accidentally activates the quantum tunnel.
posted by ejs at 10:15 PM on April 27 [46 favorites]


Should have been a squirrel.
posted by straight at 10:16 PM on April 27 [51 favorites]


And, thing I had forgotten because there are so many things in this movie but -- that paper football scene between Nebula and Tony at the very beginning was gold.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:18 PM on April 27 [22 favorites]


Wait. Don’t think I’ve seen this mentioned above - Steve goes back to put all the stones back, right? Uh... how is he going to put the Aether back in Jane Foster? Injecting her? Can anyone really see Steve being ok with some non-consensual Aether injection into a woman he barely knows? Yikes.
posted by greermahoney at 11:21 PM on April 27 [10 favorites]


I think it’s so funny that the Mets are defunct after the Thanos snap.

HA HA HA HA HA
posted by chrchr at 11:49 PM on April 27 [4 favorites]


everything that happens in this movie is only possible because a rat crawls over Ant-Man’s van’s dashboard and accidentally activates the quantum tunnel.

How lucky we are that this particular rat didn’t get snaptured away!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:45 AM on April 28 [1 favorite]


VORMIR, 2014

CAPTAIN AMERICA: Johann.
RED SKULL: Steve.
CAPTAIN AMERICA: ...
RED SKULL: ...
CAPTAIN AMERICA: New job, huh?
RED SKULL: Yes. It's pretty boring most of the time, but every now and then I get to watch someone kill a loved one.
CAPTAIN AMERICA: Uh-huh. Listen, speaking of which, that's my friend Nat down at the bottom of the cliff there. I don't suppose if I gave you this Soul Stone back, she'd ... ?
RED SKULL: Are you kidding? Even if that was possible, which it isn't, I'd still say no.
CAPTAIN AMERICA: ...
RED SKULL: ...
CAPTAIN AMERICA: Zola came closer to conquering the world than you ever did.
RED SKULL: Get bent, Steve.
posted by kyrademon at 1:38 AM on April 28 [56 favorites]


we're underestimating the procreative capacity of the post-snap rat population
posted by cendawanita at 1:42 AM on April 28 [9 favorites]


My daughter punched me in the arm when upon Tony's arc-reactor fading away, I said, "Arc Reactors don't work like that!"

And yeah, where's Nat's funeral....
posted by mikelieman at 5:52 AM on April 28 [2 favorites]


we're underestimating the procreative capacity of the post-snap rat population

or most life really. There are many articles and a possible FPP in this speculating on what would happen.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:32 AM on April 28


All I know is, Jeff Bridges has a possible cosplay opportunity here.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:33 AM on April 28 [11 favorites]


I have so many questions — why was [Laura’s] phone plan still working?

Ooh, I know this one! Clint had a family cell phone plan, and after he lost his family, he couldn’t bear to change his plan to single user.
posted by ejs at 7:14 AM on April 28 [38 favorites]


I was happy they found a way to time travel that involved putting the stones back while also resolving how Thanos wouldn't then still get ahold of them. Even if there was still some handwavium in there (because comics!), it still worked nicely enough.

Boo for having the only woman on the original team sacrifice herself and then not even be acknowledged by everyone at the end.

Yay for having Tony sacrifice himself and having Peter be right there. I hope they don't drop that loss completely in the new Spider-Man movie.
posted by kokaku at 7:41 AM on April 28 [4 favorites]


I was at a 10 am screening in Paris yesterday. Morning screenings have typically a small audience, even for tentpole movies, but this one was fully packed and, like EllieBoa said above, the (usually quiet) audience went wild several times, which is something I hadn't seen since... the first Avengers movie. Lots of sobs too.
Yay to Jarvis showing up! Too bad they didn't have other TV-MCU folks participating in the battle, even for a split second. Even Howard the Duck is there, wielding a machine gun (behind the Wasp)! Of course having TV-MCU heroes fighting in 2024 may cause issues for their own shows' future timelines, but nothing that comic book logic can't fix.
posted by elgilito at 8:37 AM on April 28 [3 favorites]


The thing with Steve is that as long as he doesn't change anything he knows about in his own past, he can still be in the same universe. For all he knows, his presence isn't changing anything that wasn't already affected by his older-self's presence the first time he lived through it.

But if he goes off and rescues Bucky, then it's the Bucky of some other universe, and it's a universe he has just doomed to be one where the Avengers will not defeat Thanos.
posted by straight at 8:41 AM on April 28 [4 favorites]


Still crying and having the feels. I don’t know what was up in my audience that despite our collective nerdy ness not many NOTICED Stan Lee.

Me and my kid caught the cheeseburger. Tears.

Considering what they had to work in there, well done. Looking forward to BE movie, Marvel 2, and on.

Fake Hulk Smash has me giggling my ass off. Reminded me of my dad.

Except for “eat a salad” I think I was okay with Realistic Thor.

A good use of Marvel, though more would be nice. Pissed about Nat, but ... dammit.

I’ve made time in my schedule to see it again soon ...
posted by tilde at 9:42 AM on April 28


How did the Ant Van get in the storage locker, anyway?
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:11 AM on April 28 [4 favorites]


Maybe poor Cassie and whoever's left of the family?

Not that I need an excuse to rewatch but the chance of spotting Howard the Duck? Sold
posted by cendawanita at 10:19 AM on April 28


What do we think the tappy tappy forging sound was at the end of the credits?
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:25 AM on April 28 [3 favorites]


It is supposed to be a call back to Tony Stark forging his original Iron Man armor in the first film.
posted by chrchr at 10:27 AM on April 28 [1 favorite]


Oh. Rats. I was hoping for something more forward-looking.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:31 AM on April 28 [1 favorite]


I presume Chris Hemsworth was willing to take a substantial cut in pay to not have to starve himself and work out 6 days a week to prepare for the role?
posted by Bee'sWing at 10:33 AM on April 28 [10 favorites]


As a parent, I was mystified by Clint's insistence on being the one to sacrifice himself.

Well, he did spend the last five years executing criminals and my friend brought up the possibility that this might make him a internationally wanted criminal himself. It would be hard for his family to have a normal life with a dad that's a fugitive (not to mention being an enemy of organized crime). I think this is also a potentially interesting future plot point to use (if they choose to) where one of the consequences is Clint has to stay underground and cannot be an "official" Avenger because of this.

As for the entire movie itself, it was en enjoyable wrap up of the 20+ movies so far. But part of me kind of wonders if there were talks about splitting the whole infinity saga into three films. Did they not want to do this, because The Hobbit tried it and it's part of the reason why it's quality wasn't as good? There is a lot of of movie in IW and Endgame. I feel a third movie would have allowed certain scenes and moments to breathe more, add a few things that people in this thread have brought up were missing, and saved a lot of bladders. I guess the other factor is, it would cost more to extend contracts and push out another film.
posted by FJT at 10:57 AM on April 28 [1 favorite]


I may have, ahem, paid close attention to my favorite Hollywood Chris's arms and it was clear that he was still jacked. Didn't they pretty much film this simultaneously with Infinity War?
posted by TwoStride at 11:00 AM on April 28 [4 favorites]


Anything is possible with today's CGI, I guess. Though, as sumo wrestlers, Soviet weightlifters and Teamsters have taught us, it is possible to be jacked and fat at the same time.

I never thought the move was dull for long, though there was a lot of 'who are these people' for me. I've only seen maybe half of the Marvel movies.
posted by Bee'sWing at 11:17 AM on April 28 [2 favorites]


Why did Thikk Thor wear gloves all the time? If he did. As with TwoStride, I might have been looking at arms more than wrists
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:43 AM on April 28


> How did the Ant Van get in the storage locker, anyway?

I was assuming as part of a massive make work / clean up project, there was a lot of consolidating of lost items, etc. All the boats rafted to the statue of liberty, the shots of the cars piled up in citifield's parking lot, etc.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:13 PM on April 28 [4 favorites]


Didn't they pretty much film this simultaneously with Infinity War?

They planned to do it that way, but it was a logistics nightmare, so they filmed them back to back.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:15 PM on April 28 [3 favorites]


One great CGI effect I haven’t seen anyone anywhere mention yet is how they made Tony look so emaciated after his three weeks lost in space. It lent great force to his (wonderfully written, amazingly acted) poisonous rant at Cap to have him look so physically ravaged.
posted by ejs at 12:30 PM on April 28 [38 favorites]


Anybody know where the scenes at New Asgard are filmed? It looked very familiar.

St Abbs, Scotland I think.
posted by gnuhavenpier at 12:31 PM on April 28


Or maybe just a thirty second one where Steve returns the Soul stone and punches Red Skull for old time's sake.

I came away wanting a CapIV where Steve goes to Vormir, sees Johann, and both of these old men sit down to talk about their life choices. Johann helps Steve use the Tesseract to trick that timeline's Thanos to be sucked in as the Soul Stone guardian and allow Johann to die while in exchange Johann gives Steve enough information about how his old superbomber worked so that he can travel back to 1945 and land the plane safely and meet Peggy for their dance (and maybe Steve can use the Aether and Mind stones to allow himself to merge with that timeline's Steve Rogers and resolve that paradox).

Then Thanos is stuck on Vormir, and the Battle of New York never happens or Snapture never happens and all of those time travel inconsistencies resolve gradually like ripples in a pool of macguffin magic.
posted by bl1nk at 1:02 PM on April 28 [5 favorites]


I'm super disappointed that a cat-flerkin was not an essential part of vanquishing Thanos.

That was what I asked everyone who saw the film before me to say happened. Although I'm indeed disappointed by the absence of Goose.

I did feel a little like the whole Captain-Marvel all-women backup of Marvelettes was a little pander-y, but it's not a hill I'm gonna die on.

Possibly best moment: repurposing of legendarily controversial bit of dialogue: Cap saying, “Hail Hydra.”

My favorite bit of that was the smug little smile to himself as he leaves the elevator.

Also dug Peter Parker trying to introduce himself to people during the battle with Thanos. And chuckled at Gamora looking Peter Quill over and turning to Nebula -

"This guy?"

"....Hey, your only other option was a tree."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:15 PM on April 28 [20 favorites]


As for the entire movie itself, it was en enjoyable wrap up of the 20+ movies so far. But part of me kind of wonders if there were talks about splitting the whole infinity saga into three films. Did they not want to do this, because The Hobbit tried it and it's part of the reason why it's quality wasn't as good? There is a lot of of movie in IW and Endgame. I feel a third movie would have allowed certain scenes and moments to breathe more, add a few things that people in this thread have brought up were missing, and saved a lot of bladders. I guess the other factor is, it would cost more to extend contracts and push out another film.

I, too, feel that it was all a bit rushed, and I hope that on the extras in the Bluray or "Director's / Definitive Edition" or whatever, there's going to be a few extra scenes to help stitch some of the continuity together. One example, I feel like the whole bit where Carol shows up as Marvel Ex Machina to save Tony and Nebula was a bit abrupt, and my wife and I were both wondering if/how that overlaid with the Captain Marvel stinger where she shows up after the pager dies and asks, "Where's Fury?" Did that actually happen? Did the scene get retconned away and is when she arrives on Earth with the Guardians ship the first time that the Avengers meet her? Did she run into the spaceship on her way to Earth and IN THE MIDDLE OF SPACE? It was a bit confusing.

The headcanon that I have is that the pager scene happens. Nat, Bruce, Rhodey and Cap all introduce themselves. Danvers explains who she is and somehow the Avengers explain that they need to find Tony. Bruce explains that the last time he saw Tony was on a ship that Thanos was using to kidnap Dr. Strange. They all assume that Thanos wanted Strange on Titan, so Danvers heads there and is lucky that Tony and Nebula set the Guardians spaceship on a beeline from Titan to the nearest jump point towards Earth, and Danvers finds them because she has a special sense for spaceships that do or do not need punching. I think? Maybe?

There's a lot of Plot in this film, and I could also see how that would've been awkward for pacing with Carol's other hazing/Welcome To the Team/Take Your Place in the Marching Order scene later on when she's telling everyone to go to Thanos' farm; but it would still have been nice to have something that explained Carol getting involved in the first place. While they were at it, they could also throw in something to explain why Carol wasn't around for New York. ("Space is big. By the time I arrived y'all had it in hand. I had a brief weekend with Marie and then went back to work" or "Nick told me he forgot to keep the pager charged. Learned his lesson after that.")
posted by bl1nk at 2:41 PM on April 28 [5 favorites]


> The headcanon that I have is that the pager scene happens. Nat, Bruce, Rhodey and Cap all introduce themselves. Danvers explains who she is and somehow the Avengers explain that they need to find Tony.

That's pretty much what I assumed happened - those stingers aren't always scenes from the next movie but interstitial to what happens next. Same as in Black Panther and them giving the arm to Bucky I believe.
posted by mrzarquon at 3:13 PM on April 28 [6 favorites]


I just saw this and I'm buzzing with questions and ... issues.

But first - wow, they did it. They really did it. I didn't think all those moving parts could be reconciled, and they (mostly) were.

I'm perfectly OK giving them a "comic book, eh" pass on the time travel details for the time heist. And - with Morgan Stark making it very concrete - it is clear that the present has a lot that should not be sacrificed to bring the past back. So I get that they couldn't just rewind to pre-Snapture. But then - how does it work? Do the people come back to friends and family who have aged 5 years? What about people who have moved on? Grieving people who have made new families and then the former loved ones show up ... awkward? Most critically, what the hell has been happening in Peter Parker's high school - how many years do these kids spend in high school? Or is it just the Snapture'd cohort that is coming back and restarting high school?

To fix all this - you guessed it, I have a theory:

New York and San Francisco looked more like 90% of the population had vanished than 50%

Yeah. And I've always felt that the entire 50%-elimination plan was dumb in the worst way. If your population has a doubling timescale - say every 10 years - and you halve it, all you've done is bought one extra doubling timescale. In 10 years, you're back to where things were. Seems like an awful lot of effort to go to, just to buy one decade (or whatever). Instead - I think when the Snapture happens, it's removing half of the logarithm of the population - stripping off half the zeros. From 1,000,000 to 1000. From 10 billion people to 100,000.

That would buy a LOT of time. And that would explain the deserted feel. And it would fix the returnee problem, because almost everyone would be a returnee. It would even explain the birds coming back - if you just took away half the birds, seeing two birds on a tree would be nothing special.

So that's my theory: Thanos took away half the digits in the population numbers, not half the population. Because otherwise it would be a dumb plan to start with.
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:13 PM on April 28 [9 favorites]


As for the movie - I solidly enjoyed it, except for the battle scene. Just like the assault on Wakanda in Infinity War, I thought the battle went on too long. More importantly, it was misguided - how about a plan with a bit more finesse, which doesn't involve two armies beating the shit out of each other? How about tossing the time stone to Dr. Strange and having him freeze and rewind the scene?

But I guess those battles come with the territory. I'll allow it.

(It was a joy of references and asides for the fans. America's Ass!)
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:17 PM on April 28


Most critically, what the hell has been happening in Peter Parker's high school - how many years do these kids spend in high school? Or is it just the Snapture'd cohort that is coming back and restarting high school?

Yeah, the theory is that everyone we’re seeing in the Far From Home trailer was snapped, and just came back. Presumably others from their year graduated and moved on.
posted by greermahoney at 3:20 PM on April 28 [5 favorites]


One great CGI effect I haven’t seen anyone anywhere mention yet is how they made Tony look so emaciated after his three weeks lost in space.
Marvel has been using the same company, Lola VFX, for making de-aging effects in all their movies. I guess that Lola has now a whole library of high-res models of the faces of those actors (RDJ, Michael Douglas, Kurt Russell, Michelle Pfeiffer, Sam Jackson, Clark Gregg, Larry Fishburne etc.) that they can use for every kind of aging/de-aging effects.
posted by elgilito at 3:20 PM on April 28 [6 favorites]


De-Snappining problem: food. Five years is plenty of time for the supply and demand curves to find a new equilibrium. So how does the world’s (well, universes) agricultural engine restart in time to prevent widespread starvation?

Really, though, I’m fine with hand waving it away as “cosmic powah” – I just like the thought experiment.
posted by m@f at 3:54 PM on April 28 [6 favorites]


I think the Vormir scenes work best if you assume Red Skull is lying about the mechanism - if the trade is actually just a life for the Soul Stone, then it doesn't matter that Clint doesn't choose to sacrifice Nat or that Thanos isn't capable of love. Red Skull is just making up the part about sacrificing someone you love, because being the guardian of the Soul Stone is tedious and he's kind of a dick.

I love RDJ, but agree that the choice to give Stark a big onscreen funeral while making Clint and Wanda kind of awkwardly mourn Nat and Vision by themselves was not great.

I liked a lot of elements of this movie, but I definitely felt the 3 hour length. I am generally more excited by the individual hero movies than the big Team Avengers outings, though, so not a huge surprise. Glad so many other people enjoyed it so much!
posted by the primroses were over at 3:58 PM on April 28 [9 favorites]


Arguably by definition someone you're willing to sacrifice to get the power of the Soul Stone is someone you don't truly love. I think to save it you have to think it just means sacrifice someone you care about and don't want to lose. And doesn't Clint at the very end let go of Natasha's hand?

But I agree it would be nice if there were some narrative reason (like making you doubt what he says about the nature of the test) that it's the Red Skull there instead of somebody else.
posted by straight at 4:09 PM on April 28 [1 favorite]


And doesn't Clint at the very end let go of Natasha's hand?

I remember her doing.....something?.....to jolt herself out of his grasp. (Couldn't quite tell, something that involved her kicking something, I couldn't quite see.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:14 PM on April 28 [2 favorites]


I think you have to assume that when Bruce brings everybody back, he manages to wish for enough of the world's infrastructure to be restored that they don't mostly die over the next month but doesn't harm any of the 5-year survivors. Still a huge amount of relationship issues, though.
posted by straight at 4:20 PM on April 28 [3 favorites]


Yeesh. It was about 80 minutes too long, and the endless CGI nonsense and unearned tear-jerkers gave me a huge headache.

Natasha was totally robbed, and Clint is a terrible person. No woman should die for man-pain, ok?

The 5 minutes of “Steve Rogers is 100% straight,” made me just say “fuck you, Marvel.”

Peter Quill needs to spend GoG3 getting killed every 5 minutes and then written out of the MCU. He ruins every thing he touches.

I liked the new Banner and how he and the Ancient One talked through a problem like fucking adults.

I liked that Tony Stark engineered way too much into his glove; of course he did.

Honestly, Captain Marvel should have been the lead; this could have been done in a lean 90 minutes.

Fuck Thanos and his goddamn internet male bullshit; he’s a loser.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:28 PM on April 28 [11 favorites]


Or maybe just a thirty second one where Steve returns the Soul stone and punches Red Skull for old time's sake.

Maybe to put the stone back you have to sacrifice someone you hate.
posted by straight at 4:31 PM on April 28 [18 favorites]


EmpressCallipygos—she kicked against the cliff face to yank her arm out of Clint’s grasp.

Regarding what some have said above that Clint didn’t sacrifice anything: Despite the Skull saying you have to sacrifice what you love, he also says (both here and in Infinity War) “a soul for a soul.” It has a double meaning, in that yes, Gamora’s/Nat’s soul is sacrificed for the stone, but Thanos and Clint lost their souls metaphorically; Thanos for having to kill Gamora, and Clint for being unable to keep Nat from sacrificing herself.
posted by ejs at 4:36 PM on April 28 [7 favorites]


Maybe to put the stone back you have to sacrifice someone you hate.

Oh god. Maybe to put the stone back, you have to stay with someone you hate. Steve had to marry Red Skull!!! No wonder he didn’t want to tell Sam who he married.
posted by greermahoney at 4:37 PM on April 28 [40 favorites]


Steve goes back to put all the stones back, right? Uh... how is he going to put the Aether back in Jane Foster?

And how does he even turn the reality stone back into Aether? Or the space stone back into a cosmic cube tesseract? I suppose Tony knows how to put the mind crystal back into the staff since he took it out twice.
posted by straight at 4:46 PM on April 28 [2 favorites]


I think the Vormir scenes work best if you assume Red Skull is lying about the mechanism

Agreed! I just came back from my second viewing and Nat's sacrifice still didn't quite gel for me. I wanted Clint and Nat to 1) realize that their mysterious guide was literally the head of Hydra during WWII (I assume that SHIELD agents get background on the agency's old adversaries) and immediately question his credentials, 2) interrogate Red Skull and deduce that he's making it all up about the requirements of the stone trial, and 3) realize that the only reason Thanos went along with his horseshit is because he's a BAD GUY with wrong ideas about the meaning of love and sacrifice.

I don't really have a satisfying answer to what Nat and Clint would have actually needed to do instead, but it seemed to me that they could have just cashed in the chips of every life they'd failed to save five years earlier (or four years later, depending on how you look at it) and gotten a technical "freebie" instead of unquestioningly following the directions of a Nazi sadist.
posted by Strange Interlude at 4:46 PM on April 28 [7 favorites]


Maybe Steve doesn't have to put the Soul Stone back. At that point they've already massively changed the timeline by killing Thanos before he can collect any of the stones. Maybe he just gives it and the Power Stone to Dr. Strange or Thor or somebody like that.
posted by straight at 4:51 PM on April 28 [2 favorites]


I kept hoping they'd realize they could just push Red Skull off the cliff.
posted by RakDaddy at 5:05 PM on April 28 [17 favorites]


I mean, really, all that “that is America’s ass,” and 100% no homo Steve? When Bucky has been his literal 100% anchor? To hell with you.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:16 PM on April 28 [3 favorites]


I really enjoyed the movie but it was long and I wasn't feeling great and so I need to see it again.

My fuzzy memory in the middle does bring me to a funny aside - I built a Markova chain comment generator for the purpose of making the mega threads more... well a lot less everything. Pointing it at this thread's corpus gave me this:
The question is why "just go kill Thanos as a murder hobo); Thor has stopped being Point Break and started being The Dude; and the literally infinite power of film.
And I have to say that I couldn't agree more.
posted by mce at 6:49 PM on April 28 [7 favorites]


...Clint is a terrible person....Peter Quill ..... He ruins every thing he touches.

At first glance I agreed completely with these statements but then I have a hard time separating the actors from these characters and it really sucks because GoTG was my favorite MCU film (until Ragnarok) and now I can't enjoy it because of what we know about Pratt. This makes the re-hiring of Gunn for GoTGv3 maddeningly bittersweet. Renner has had some comments that really make me think he's not much better than Pratt.

I feel like the Russo's kind of hate Quill. He's just not himself in IW/EG. He's so insecure and dumb in that scene with Thor in IW and it goes on so long. He's insecure and awkward in the GoTG films but he never comes across as quite that dumb or pathetic.

Hawkeye was never my favorite and the whole "he's the human one of us with a family and no powers" was really really heavy-handed but honestly because of that the first scene in EG really struck a nerve with me. If I were him I'd be really, really mad at all the super Avengers for failing. Instead he turns his murdery skills on criminals which seems perfectly in character.

As for the soul-stone. It makes sense if you accept that it only cares about what the person feels. Thanos felt like he was killing the one person he loved. It doesn't make me dismiss or forgive his abusive behavior but I can get behind the soul-stone accepting the notion that he felt like he did love her. Both Nat and Hawkeye would both feel like they had lost a person they loved no matter which one was sacrificed.
posted by M Edward at 7:35 PM on April 28 [6 favorites]


One thing I came away thinking: I'm actually really glad it was Natasha and not Clint, given how they set it up.

Neither of them should have had to die, but Clint was very specifically wrong about his own life not having value anymore. Natasha didn't at that point seem to be suggesting that her own life is worthless, just that if either of them dying is bad, Clint's death in the event that his family is brought back is objectively worse. This is the same calculus I would use if I were put into a situation where somebody had to die and it was me or a close friend of mine with young kids. Clint's calculus involves a lot of thinking that he has damaged himself beyond repair. A lot of tragic media is happy to portray people as so broken that death is the only way they can possibly go. It's not true. There is no such thing as a quantity of trauma that renders you too broken to be worth being alive.

I do think that the one female original Avenger dying part made it much more problematic than I would have found it otherwise, but that feels like the kind of thing that really needed to get solved by a better team composition up front, I still would have felt far worse about them pulling the "too messed up to live" card.

I spent the beginning of the climactic battle literally sitting there going "okay when is Strange pulling his Gandalf moment". I knew it had to be coming. Even knowing it was coming, it was still enough to give me chills. I am such a sucker for those battles. I was delighted by the all-woman lineup when it happened, but it also made me wonder, given the setup, if it was actually a nod to some of the LOTR films' influence and Eowyn's "I am no man" moment. Again, doesn't replace actual better handling for the entire series, but if you come into this film with all the other movies exactly as they were, it felt fitting.
posted by Sequence at 7:37 PM on April 28 [13 favorites]


Just got back from watching this about 2 hours ago, and here are some thoughts:

The reason Natasha saw it clearly that she was the one to die was because in doing so she was making the biggest sacrifice. Barton's can't, as much as he may have loved Nat, she loved the whole Avengers crew waaaaaay more. She even references it several times way before in the beginning of Act 2 talking to Steve, and again saying that the Avengers are her found family, since she was an orphan raised to be an assassin. She even says "I didn't know my fathers name", when trying to convince Barton that she should be the one to die. She's giving up something she loves more than anything else. Barton can't do the same because he's already had it taken from him. She can see that if he sacrificed himself, then neither of them would get the Soul Stone.

I mean, I can totally see where some of you are coming from with the lamer interpretations of her whole death, but I really think that it was pretty clear in the text that Natasha was continuing to run the Avengers, even though it felt hopeless, because she really didn't have anything else to turn to, or anywhere else to go. And that, to me, just re-enforces the whole idea that Nat made the biggest sacrifice. She had to give up the family that saved her from being just an orphan assassin killer with no connections to anything. And often, those chosen families can mean even more to a person than blood or romantic involvement.
posted by daq at 7:44 PM on April 28 [13 favorites]


I mean, really, all that “that is America’s ass,” and 100% no homo Steve? When Bucky has been his literal 100% anchor?

A friend and I have already discussed and elected to believe that there was an off-camera discussion in which Bucky was invited privately and elected not to go with him once he found out Sam was getting the shield, and that this was sad and poignant and clearly accidentally cut because why would you cut that. It seems clear that Bucky knew, and if they had time to talk about it, I'm pretty sure it wasn't just "okay going to the past now for the rest of my life seeya" and "okay bye I guess". Whatever his feelings, romantic or otherwise, I can see Bucky going "okay but somebody has to make sure that guy doesn't fuck this up and make you look bad".

It actually feels like a really good setup for another Captain America movie, wherein Steve sits in the background telling Sam he's doing a great job and giving his great-grandchildren Life Savers for a couple more years and Sam and Bucky spend a lot of time scrambling to look like Sam knows wtf he's doing as Captain America and bickering and definitely not finding each other attractive, with attendant jokes about whether Bucky's sexual orientation best friend is just "Captain America".

Or, you know, a fic, not that I'm volunteering to write it, but if somebody finds one, hook me up, just saying.
posted by Sequence at 7:51 PM on April 28 [7 favorites]


Oh, also, I'm kicking myself because I can't recall the exact dialogue, but when Nat was talking to War Machine after Rocket and Captain Marvel sign off from the hologram thingies, he says something to her about Barton and she has a tear just barely welling up in her left eye just before Steve shows up and makes a lame joke about cooking dinner. I wish I could remember the dialogue because it was her saying something something about family or something and it sets up this while thing of her being the one with the most to lose if they stop trying. I hate that it is so early in the movie and there was so much more in there that got crammed in. It's right before Scott Lang shows up at the front door too, which I feel like that's blocking out my ability to recall what she said, but it was this heavy riff on family or acceptance or something.
posted by daq at 7:51 PM on April 28 [3 favorites]


Though for something fun but also _super_ spoilery, here's Kevin Smith's take on it.
posted by daq at 7:54 PM on April 28 [2 favorites]


I feel like the Russo's kind of hate Quill. He's just not himself in IW/EG. He's so insecure and dumb in that scene with Thor in IW and it goes on so long. He's insecure and awkward in the GoTG films but he never comes across as quite that dumb or pathetic.

I think that a lot of people, possibly not excepting myself, might react the same way if we have our own nice little shop going, and then someone crashes the party who literally has a day of the week named after him.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:16 PM on April 28 [12 favorites]


Let me tell you, it is not a great look sitting there in a full movie theatre trying not to sob your fucking eyes out in the middle of a superhero movie.

My father-in-law died Friday. For once, I wish I'd read spoilers; we'd have waited a couple weeks. I ugly cried the last half hour.

Man, that was a lot of movie.

(Daq, I don't remember the exact quote, but she said something like "I didn't have much until I had this job. This family." Nat got me so much right then. I know that feeling of tight control, tired and if I just eat this sandwich, if I just solve this earthquake, everything will be fine.)
posted by joycehealy at 8:25 PM on April 28 [5 favorites]


It was like Return of the King: a great two hour movie.

At the end, I was Watsonian baffled that the characters allowed Stark to die. He was alive and conscious after the snap, "life signs critical" not absent. Rather than holding his hand, shouldn't someone have at least tried CPR?

I started counting life saving strategies that should have been tried...
- battlefield medicine? Falcon's a medic
- surgery? At least one medical doctor on hand
- super-science? 17 subspecialties of technobabble were just standing around...
- magic? They had a literal army of wizards
- Shuri

Shuri: "Quickly, let's cut off his head and put it in liquid nitrogen."
Potts: "That could save his life?"
Shuri: "No, I'll use nanobots to save his life. I just think he'd enjoy having an interesting scar."
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:01 PM on April 28 [25 favorites]


It actually feels like a really good setup for another Captain America movie, wherein Steve sits in the background telling Sam he's doing a great job and giving his great-grandchildren Life Savers for a couple more years and Sam and Bucky spend a lot of time scrambling to look like Sam knows wtf he's doing as Captain America and bickering and definitely not finding each other attractive, with attendant jokes about whether Bucky's sexual orientation best friend is just "Captain America".

Well, they ARE working on a tv show with Bucky and Falcon, so maybe this was that setup?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:57 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]


Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think they've necessarily set up a bunch of alternate timelines as in the comics, to which as noted above they've made clear they are not beholden. You could reasonably interpret the Ancient One's description of a full-reality-splitting event (at least in terms of time travel) to apply ONLY to removal of an infinity stone.

Time-forward-hopping Thanos came from one of those alternates. That alternate ceased to exist (ceased to ever have existed even) when Cap put the stones back. Dusting Thanos and his army was just forward-looking cleanup, and does not alter what happened in our reality, and the reality that would have been affected by that (as by Nebula's killing of Nebula) is no longer extant.

Chalk me up as someone else who thought the movie was too kind to Clint at Nat's expense. And the "she's got help" bit was great but way too little, felt like they were just checking a box.

Still enjoyed it a lot, to be clear.
posted by solotoro at 2:41 AM on April 29 [4 favorites]


adding to the list of Community alumni who have been in their MCU movies (has anyone else been in that anyone can think of?)

Not yet mentioned: The Apple Store guy in Winter Soldier was DC Pierson, he was a minor character on Community (I think he was a member of the Greendale improv group?), and in reality a co-member of Derrick Comedy with Donald Glover.

And if we're staying with Marvel but reaching beyond the MCU/Russo Brothers attachment, Joel McHale was in Spider-Man 2.
posted by doctornecessiter at 4:42 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]


the list of Community alumni who have been in their MCU movies (has anyone else been in that anyone can think of?)

Enver Gjokaj played a love interest of Britta’s and a friend of Troy and Abed’s. He was also Young Cop in the first Avengers and Agent Sousa on Agent Carter.
posted by gauche at 5:20 AM on April 29 [7 favorites]


I'm surprised by how emotional I feel, a day after seeing it, much more than I was while I was watching it. Going any further than that would result in a lot of typing to no real benefit to anybody, but I'm having to work a bit at holding it together today.

In short, I think the last ten years have been a very long story (with digressions) about how to be good, how hard it is to be good, how easy it is to fail to be good and how, in the end, the answer seems to be compassion and kindness and acceptance. I realise that may seem like a very left-field interpretation of a bunch of superhero films, and I'm not sure that I could support it with close reading and examples if challenged, but as someone who has generally failed, and failed spectactularly, at being either good or kind, the lessons I feel I can draw from it are enormous.

I would very much like to see it again.
posted by Grangousier at 5:53 AM on April 29 [11 favorites]


I thought the film was kind of hard on Scott Lang. He’s a goof, but he has positive character traits, too. Endgame makes him the butt of a lot of jokes and condescension. Suddenly, he can’t work his own suit, and Clint needs to run the test mission so we can see how much he misses his family, again? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for Scott to go back and ask Dr. Pym for more particles? Also, he didn’t get to do much fun shrink-physics stuff in fights, relying more on being a giant, which, yes, is much easier to see in a battle seen, but messes up the premise of his own films a bit.

I agree the world was way too desolate for what amounts to 1970s population levels. This did have the people to research and build a memorial in five years, though....

I liked that we got reminded that the Scarlet Witch is very dangerous. I’d like to see a team up between her and Captain Marvel.

The two films have women losing a lot of things and men getting their losses healed. For example, I’d like a film where Nebula does not get her mind, body, or personality violated....
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:56 AM on April 29 [16 favorites]


. So narratively they need to end this story together, somehow, and that's what Marvel Studios didn't provide

There s a few scenes with cap and Bucky that tie their stories together, with Falcon. So, all three of them got resolution. Not sure...
posted by eustatic at 6:12 AM on April 29


I have no doubt that (if enough of us survive the impending environmental apocalypse), future generations of 6th graders will be studying the Marvel Universe right along side the Pantheon of Greek and Roman Gods. I have mixed feelings about the fact that Disney now owns our modern Mount Olympus. It's probably a blessing and a curse. (Which mythic-ally speaking, is appropriate I guess.) I hope Stan Lee and Jack Kirby get the credit they deserve for the monumental impact they have made on our culture. ... Ok, Nuff said, off to buy another ticket...
posted by pjsky at 6:37 AM on April 29 [5 favorites]


Chris Pratt Shares His Illegal Avengers: Endgame Set Video (Jamie Lovett, Comicbook.com)
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:02 AM on April 29 [5 favorites]


Suddenly, he can’t work his own suit, and Clint needs to run the test mission so we can see how much he misses his family, again? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for Scott to go back and ask Dr. Pym for more particles?

If the test mission failed, Scott would be stuck somewhere and the Avengers would have even less of a clue about how any of the Ant-Man tech works.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:03 AM on April 29 [4 favorites]


So how does the world’s (well, universes) agricultural engine restart in time to prevent widespread starvation?

That is a good point, and thus one unaddressed by the movie. If the world’s food supply were cut in half tomorrow (essentially the situation the world is facing at the end of the movie). I can’t imagine it going well.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:52 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]


When the Ancient One knocked Bruce's astral form out of Hulk's body I thought it was setting us up for an, "if I'm not in there, then who's controlling him!?!?!" rampage scene. But instead, it showed that Bruce and Hulk really are unified now (or Bruce is 100% in total control now). That's one of the points where they swerved on the expected comic book plot point and gave us something else (two adults talking out their respective points of view) instead.
posted by thecjm at 7:54 AM on April 29 [12 favorites]


I built a Markova chain comment generator for the purpose of making the mega threads more... well a lot less everything. Pointing it at this thread's corpus gave me this:
The question is why "just go kill Thanos as a murder hobo); Thor has stopped being Point Break and started being The Dude; and the literally infinite power of film.
And I have to say that I couldn't agree more.


The middle third of that being taken verbatim from a comment of mine makes me wonder just how articulate I actually am if Markov chain generators look at my prose and think, “This will do.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:55 AM on April 29 [8 favorites]


You know, before we saw it, a friend of mine did a little write-up with each of the individual character posters. And when he got to Sam/Falcon, he said, "I mean, this character's very underwritten. Is Sam anyone's favorite? Mackie's a decent actor, I guess."

My response:
"Sam is my top 10 for sure. Anthony Mackie is one of my fake celebrity husbands because I love Falcon with the power of a thousand suns. He is exactly good guy enough to sincerely click with Steve Rogers and be his BFF. He is also an incredibly competent fighter and doesn’t let his ego get in the way of missions. Sam is a peacekeeper - the Middle Child of the Avengers - with no tragic past, meta-human powers or personal conflicts to mess with the team’s dynamic (or his role in it). Like a less cocky Rhodie, he’s earned his sidekick role without trying to force it to become something more.

In a way, Falcon and Rhodie are like the Spice Girls of the Avenger-verse: competent enough to keep up with the truly gifted unpowered members (Widow, Hawkeye); hardworking and always team players, but not standouts deserving of their own featured stories. It takes a strong ensemble cast with plenty of natural charisma and chemistry to become a box office powerhouse like Avengers. Few Hollywood tentpoles have even come close, but they won’t stop trying...

Falcon is proof that lifelong unproblematic nice guys belong on superhero teams."

I turned to my husband at the end of the movie and said, "See? I chose my faves wisely (Peggy, Sam). They got the happy endings they always deserved by simply being Lawful Goods."

Thought I'd cry more by the end, but nah. I also said that if Cap died/disappeared by the end of the film, I'd be okay with it as long as Iron Man did the same. Fair's fair for big hero deaths and all, but only if the team's balance is maintained.

Could not be happier, though Natasha def got a raw deal. :( Sorry, Hulk. Your ship has crashed.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:38 AM on April 29 [10 favorites]


‘Avengers: Endgame’: The Screenwriters Answer Every Question You Might Have
Why does Natasha Romanoff have to die?

McFEELY Her journey, in our minds, had come to an end if she could get the Avengers back. ... But we lost a big character — a female character — how do we honor it? We have this male lens and it’s a lot of guys being sad that a woman died.
MARKUS Tony gets a funeral. Natasha doesn’t. That’s partly because Tony’s this massive public figure and she’s been a cipher the whole time. It wasn’t necessarily honest to the character to give her a funeral. The biggest question about it is what Thor raises there on the dock. “We have the Infinity Stones. Why don’t we just bring her back?”
McFEELY But that’s the everlasting exchange. You bring her back, you lose the stone.

Was there a possible outcome where Clint Barton sacrifices himself instead of her?

McFEELY There was, for sure. Jen Underdahl, our visual effects producer, read an outline or draft where Hawkeye goes over. And she goes, “Don’t you take this away from her.” I actually get emotional thinking about it.
More there, including discussion of alternatives they considered (e.g., Tony goes to Asgard), and places where they just threw up their hands and relied on comic book logic.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:43 AM on April 29 [9 favorites]


GenjiandProust Wouldn’t it have made more sense for Scott to go back and ask Dr. Pym for more particles?

I had the same thought. Another seemingly simpler approach -- why not focus all their initial effort on obtaining the Time Stone, then recruit a sorcerer to use that? It would be like their complicated apparatus, but with unlimited Pym Particles.

Possible objections: as of Endgame all the wizards became either Snapped or evil (but if our heroes are going back anyway, they could just ask Past-Strange, or any of the others). Also, maybe travel with the Time Stone is effectively single-occupancy, so you'd be relying on that sorcerer to do all the work of heisting the stone (almost as silly as relying on one Steve Rogers to replace them). But the finale of Doctor Strange seemed to show the time effects over a whole city. Still, that scene's depiction of Stone-based time travel might explain it best of all -- any stone, especially that one, is too dangerous and unpredictable to use until you have absolutely no other choice.

ricochet biscuit: When the Ancient One knocked Bruce's astral form out of Hulk's body I thought it was setting us up for an, "if I'm not in there, then who's controlling him!?!?!" rampage scene. But instead, it showed that Bruce and Hulk really are unified now (or Bruce is 100% in total control now).

It seems to me that although Hulk and Bruce are different personalities, they were never different souls (or astral forms or whatever). Mostly makes sense to me -- his gamma-radiation-mad-science never created a whole "being", just a very unusual medical/psychological condition.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 8:47 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]


As much as I've enjoyed many recent MCU movies, much of this felt like a perfunctory slog to me. If you're gonna revert things back to normal with fucking time travel, there had ought to at least be a higher price to pay than letting your A-listers take their well-earned retirement.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:19 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]


I saw it yesterday, and walked out pretty happy, although definitely sad. As we all did, I got on board this train with Iron Man, not knowing much about his character (I was a Spiderman person.) That movie blew my socks off and I didn't expect it and it made such a strong impression on me that Tony remains my favorite even though his writing got a little wonky later on in the following movies. (They kept giving him movies where he found peace, and then needed him to screw something up to spark the next movie.) Pertaining to the spoiler discussion, I accidentally walked into the big deaths spoiler a few days before, so the surprise factor wasn't there, but I definitely had tears streaming down my face when he died and at the funeral. (I'm so glad they put that kid in from Iron Man 3, even though I didn't recognize him as a teenager.)

This has kind of been a rough post-movie to be a Clint fan? Lots of "he sucked and should have died and lol he shoots arrows which is dumb." I don't disagree that killing him off may have been the better call but I do also understand why they picked Natasha to go. The two of them echo each other interestingly, both have had their murder hobo periods and they both understand each other so well that I can make an argument in either direction. (My Clint/Nat shippiness is all based on the first Avengers movie and the fight on the bridge, and the intro of his family took his character in a direction I didn't really need. But between that and the Fraction books, I still really love the character.)

The Cap/Peggy stuff made me happy, but I also don't buy that the two of them would just quietly let things happen the way they did and not try to intervene. Peggy is just as much of a super hero as Cap is and the two of them would try to kill off some of the Hydra infestation if they could.

Also, I will handwave the time travel because I never get all the details of it straight in my head. But the discussion between the Ancient One and Bruce was really great.

Poor Scott definitely gets the buffoon edit, which is sad. But his reunion with Cassie was lovely, that relationship is one of my favorites in the movies. And then there's Peter Quill, who seems to be getting progressively dumber with each movie.
posted by PussKillian at 9:19 AM on April 29 [1 favorite]


How can a superhero who always did the right thing rationalize forgoing all his abilities for one woman?

But it's not just Peggy. Steve has been marooned in this weird future where bananas taste wrong and everyone he ever knew is dead. He gets a chance to go home, to 1945, where he belongs.

And he can't run around playing a hero, changing the past, because if he does, he will doom half the universe to being killed by Thanos and never coming back. And the future (2019 - ) doesn't need him because it's got Sam and the other Avengers.
posted by straight at 9:35 AM on April 29 [9 favorites]


Posting without reading, so this might be repeating prior comments:

The heist scenes in the middle sort of got a little muddy. I mean it didn't help that I legitimately did not know where the Mind Stone was at that point in time. I know it was in Vision at the end, but that it was in Loki's staff after the first Avengers movie? NFC. And I didn't get all the way to Thor 3 in my rewatch, so I didn't remember that one either. I legitimately honestly only knew about the Tesseract, the Stone of Agamotto and "eh the Collector had one, right?" I sort of wanted that section of the movie to be a bit more, I dunno, "here's a thing you missed in the original viewing, we snuck in and digitally added the 2014 Avengers to this scene, wotcha!" or something.

What does this mean for the Agents of Shield? From what I could tell Endgame was ~2014, and AoS is "current time", so maybe the Snapture and resurrection is old history for AoS?

I still got pretty leaky eyed at all the right moments when Spidey came back and cheered when Black Panther returned, and GOOD GOD PEGGY AND STEVE boo hoo hoo.

I'm wasn't terribly surprised by who lived and who is passing on, but that was kind of obvious from stuff outside the film itself. Ok, it was a surprise just how they aged a bunch of the characters out, I suppose.

Massive cheer for Captain picking up Mjolnir, not gonna lie.
posted by Kyol at 9:37 AM on April 29


Thanks for sharing the interview with the screenwriters, I had suspected that's where their minds were with Natasha's characterisation. I might disagree with some of the narrative choices in the movies they've written but at the end of it, I deeply appreciate that they're the kind of writers who do want to build on the various building blocks left behind by other creative teams and not just think theirs is the best and the only (I know I know, I beat on Whedon a lot, but I'm reminded on how callously he decided since he killed Coulson he's not paying even the slightest attention to AoS canon, as referenced in his interviews during the Ultron promo cycle).
posted by cendawanita at 9:44 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]


Another favorite one-liner:

"....Somebody peed my pants."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:52 AM on April 29 [10 favorites]


Tony gets a funeral. Natasha doesn’t. That’s partly because Tony’s this massive public figure and she’s been a cipher the whole time. It wasn’t necessarily honest to the character to give her a funeral.

This is such bullshit. If Tony's funeral had been a lying in state it would make sense. Having friends and family gather to say goodbye has nothing to do with being a public figure or a cipher. Were the Avengers her family or weren't they?

I do think that the one female original Avenger dying part made it much more problematic than I would have found it otherwise, but that feels like the kind of thing that really needed to get solved by a better team composition up front, I still would have felt far worse about them pulling the "too messed up to live" card.


Having the only female Avenger die because she doesn't have kids is awful. Immensely, terribly awful. And, yes, it makes sense with the story they told, but the writers control the story. They wrote a story that set up a situation where it made sense to kill the only female Avenger to save a man. They wrote a story that set up a situation where it made sense to kill Gamora because her abusive father "loved" her. The fact that it makes sense in-universe isn't much of a defense because they wrote the universe. It's all so disappointing and so frustrating.
posted by Mavri at 9:53 AM on April 29 [29 favorites]


I get what people are saying and feeling w/r/t shipping Cap & Bucky. And I would have been okay with shipping them if Cap hadn't fallen head over heels for Peggy. He says, more than once, that she was the love of his life. I have a male best friend who I love deeply. I'm also married to the love of my life. If I had to choose one over the other? My husband. Every time. Maybe in another timeline Cap falls for Bucky. But in this timeline, Peggy is his heart.

As for Natasha, I feel like her sacrificing herself for Clint makes sense. He was her best friend. She wore an arrow necklace in several movies, this one included. They were connected in so many ways. Laura loved her, too; she and Clint named their youngest child after Nat! Not only were the Avengers her family, Clint and HIS family were her family. And the fact that Clint was ready to sacrifice himself actually made me pretty happy. It would have pissed me off if there had been no discussion, no fight about it.
posted by cooker girl at 10:00 AM on April 29 [6 favorites]


I seriously just do not see sexy chemistry with Cap and Bucky. Both of them just seem way too rigid to go there. I think Cap has more sexy chemistry with himself than he does Bucky, honestly (checking out his own ass!).

On the one hand, Clint and Natasha arguing/fighting it out was sweet. On the other hand, you knew it'd be her because she has no kids and Clint has a faaaaaaaaamily even if right now they don't exist. Gah. Also, only female MC and there's not that many females in this movie for most of it, darn it. Also I wanted a Widow movie and who the hell knows.

I didn't have issues with The Big Thorbowski's bod because hey, even demigods can drink too much beer and obviously he could still fight on anyway. I did wish his mom said, "Get a haircut," though. Natural dreads that come from not washing your hair for years are ewwww.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:13 AM on April 29 [10 favorites]


Also I wanted a Widow movie

There's one in the pipeline!
posted by cooker girl at 10:16 AM on April 29 [1 favorite]


Natural dreads that come from not washing your hair for years are ewwww.

I had wished that the same magic that braided his beard had washed his hair while it was doing the heroic makeover.

For all that they made Ant-Man a bigger part of this film, they managed to forget that he and Wasp have insect control powers. It would have made the heist much easier.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:20 AM on April 29 [7 favorites]


There's one in the pipeline!

please be an Eric Ambler / Alan Furst style smoke and shadows thriller!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:21 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]


Now that I think about it, the ending scenes of the movie where Cap takes the stones and Mjolnir back in time and returns (so-to-speak) could very easily have been formatted as mid-credit or end-credit scenes.

I'm glad that that wasn't done.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:22 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]


I'm guessing GotG Vol 3 will be three hours of Rocket plotting to steal Bucky's bionic arm.
posted by oulipian at 10:22 AM on April 29 [13 favorites]


And another half hour at least of Rocket trying to steal Thor's glass eye!
posted by cooker girl at 10:24 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]


Also, I mean given that they had every other two-bit minor side character along for the ride, I sorta wish they'd snuck in some of the TV Universe characters and such, even if they weren't speaking roles, just having Daredevil, Iron Fist, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones there at the final fight would've been a fun easter egg for fans.
posted by Kyol at 10:34 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]


The writers addressed that, Kyol, in the NYT article linked above.
posted by cooker girl at 10:37 AM on April 29 [1 favorite]


I totally understand the complaint re: Cap's choices as far as we know about them, but "just some woman"ing also can come of a bit misogynist, so. There's a line there.
posted by rewil at 10:46 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]


A Thorough Analysis of the Makeovers in ‘Avengers: Endgame’ (NYT)

I can only assume that Natasha's hair was uncut and undyed as a memorial to the dead, personally. But here's what it says about Thor: "But this is a new Thor, one who won’t let the occasional crack from Tony Stark get him down: The only tweak Thor sees fit to make to his new appearance is a nifty beard braid before the final battle. Thicc Thor is all about body positivity, drinking beer, and reminding everyone that he once dated Natalie Portman, and who can blame the big guy?" As for Clint, his hair is terrible and all the arm tatting seems like it might interfere with his ability to shoot n' kill periodically? I know it's not his right arm, but wouldn't that be slightly less fun for murder hoboing periodically?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:02 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]


As for Natasha, I feel like her sacrificing herself for Clint makes sense.

Putting aside the other issues raised ably by other posters (professional woman without kids, what does the world need her for?), I feel that Nat is more than hard-eyed competent enough to know that in a world crisis, she is worth fifty of Clint, and therefore if her goal is to save the Avengers and the rest of the victims of the Snapture, Clint needs to be the one to go. (Sorry, Clint fans. But it's true.)
posted by praemunire at 11:03 AM on April 29 [11 favorites]


I feel that Nat is more than hard-eyed competent enough to know that in a world crisis, she is worth fifty of Clint

I mean, is she? (I'm a Clint fan, so you're addressing me, but I'm also a Natasha fan, so I dunno.) She and Clint were partners, they've seemed to both be about the same power set for "normal humans." She uses guns and he uses a bow and arrow but they both draw from the same pot of baddass special-ops talents. Those two, Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible, that kind of thing.

Anyway, I think the two characters have had a pretty great and interesting relationship outlined throughout the movies, although people like Evans better than Renner so her bond with Steve gets more play in fandom I think.
posted by PussKillian at 11:16 AM on April 29 [5 favorites]


At the end, I was Watsonian baffled that the characters allowed Stark to die. He was alive and conscious after the snap, "life signs critical" not absent. Rather than holding his hand, shouldn't someone have at least tried CPR?

Remember how badly the Gauntlet messed up Thanos' and Hulk's arms? They're both extremely tough guys (Thanos' three-way fight with Thor, Iron Man, and Mjolnir-wielding Cap make this point very well; that's him without a single stone), and they're both still burnt-up some time after using the Gauntlet. Tony did it as an unaltered baseline human, albeit one wearing his Mark Umpteen-Skadillion armor. I don't think that CPR, or even theoretical super-advanced all-we-need-is-the-head Wakandan medicine, will cut it with someone who has just stuck his finger in the universe's wall socket. That's actually one of the things that I like about this version of the Infinity Gauntlet: unlike the comics version, or the Cosmic Cube or whatever, it's not an unlimited wish-granting machine with zero aftereffects.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:17 AM on April 29 [21 favorites]


Plus didn't Banner say something about the gauntlet having lots of gamma radiation and that's why he could withstand the onslaught?
posted by cooker girl at 11:28 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]


Ah, so they overthought it instead of "huh there's some dudes that people who've watched all the media would recognize". Oh well. I mean, I'd also accept contractual/legal/etc issues, too.
posted by Kyol at 11:28 AM on April 29


Back to Natasha, I feel like saying she made the wrong choice (or Clint didn't jump off the cliff fast enough or whatever) takes away a lot of her agency in the decision.

(yes, I KNOW it's a movie with writers and whatnot but if we're talking about them like they're real people, I'm going to go all the way with it)
posted by cooker girl at 11:29 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]


Went to see this a second time, liked it even more. One scene I was paying extra attention to was Cap saying his goodbyes in end. Upon second viewing it seemed totally obvious that Bucky knew what Steve was planning to do, they'd clearly already talked about it. (He may even have already met the aged version of Cap, some time before the young one left. Why else would old Cap not go and greet his best friend whom he hadn't seen in his subjective timeline for decades?)

The scene with Tony and Nebula playing paper football is really touching. He's very low key modeling a Good Dad to her! Probably even without knowing how much she needs something like that. Just because that's who he's genuinely become. And that simple question when the match is over: "Did you have fun?" and Nebula answering hesitantly, haltingly, since clearly no-one has ever asked her that before in her miserable torturefest of a life: "It was fun"... Oh my heart.
posted by sively at 11:36 AM on April 29 [36 favorites]


Also as for the arc reactor going dark when Tony dies, I recall it also goes dark when he pulls it off his chest and hands it to Captain America before he passes out after his rant about him being right.

Tony being dead is the same to the reactor, it is no longer attached to a living human, so it goes offline.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:41 AM on April 29 [7 favorites]


Also as for the arc reactor going dark when Tony dies, I recall it also goes dark when he pulls it off his chest and hands it to Captain America before he passes out after his rant about him being right.

Ahem, nanoparticle housing unit. See the very beginning of Infinity War when Pepper is giving him shit about it.
posted by Kyol at 11:44 AM on April 29


> Ahem, nanoparticle housing unit. See the very beginning of Infinity War when Pepper is giving him shit about it.

Yeah, yeah. There's still probably an arc reactor in there to power the whole thing also.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:57 AM on April 29


heh, one of the character arc endings (well, beginning really) is going to piss off all the neonazi's... which is awesome, considering how up in arms they were when Heimdall was cast...
posted by jkaczor at 12:03 PM on April 29


And he can't run around playing a hero, changing the past, because if he does, he will doom half the universe to being killed by Thanos and never coming back. And the future (2019 - )

I know I’m a broken record here, but his going back to 1945 created a new universe. Nothing he did there would ever effect ours.

Now, in the universe he just split off/created, it’s possible that Thanos would still win. So I’m assuming he did something there to make that impossible, since he has a good idea of where their future is going. And also, maybe he didn’t have a totally relaxed normal life. Maybe he went back to Peggy, worked with her, made sure Shield didn’t get overrun with Hydra, and was valuable. All the while knowing this universe’s Steve is under the ice, waiting to be found. And when he was, Steve!Prime went home.
posted by greermahoney at 12:09 PM on April 29 [6 favorites]


although people like Evans better than Renner so her bond with Steve gets more play in fandom I think.

Personality may be one thing, but honestly Winter Soldier supercharged their dynamic to its current fandom/memetic/pop-cultural status. (to the point that Clint's callback to Budapest felt like of a different time. But yea this movie also did a lot of heavy lifting in re-establishing their friendship dynamic)

And yeah, Bucky absolutely knows. T_T
posted by cendawanita at 12:09 PM on April 29 [2 favorites]


So Steve somehow gets the space stone back into its cosmic cube and returns it to the bunker in 1970. But Loki still grabs it and escapes with it in 2012.

So where does he go? He was sent by Thanos to get it. Does he go back and give it to him? Or does he use the power to keep track of what Thanos is up to? Was he maybe on Thanos's ship when it traveled to our time period?

So it's possible that Loki as he was before Thor 2 is running around the MCU just like the Gamora who's not in love with Star Lord. And how do you suppose he feels about the fact that his stupid brother has somehow allowed Odin, Frigga, Mjolnir, Loki himself, and all of Asgard to perish?
posted by straight at 12:15 PM on April 29 [3 favorites]


I know I’m a broken record here, but his going back to 1945 created a new universe. Nothing he did there would ever effect ours.

Bruce says he only breaks out of the loop if he changes his personal timeline. Otherwise he's just doing the things that Future Steve already secretly did in 1945 the first time Young Steve lived through it.
posted by straight at 12:21 PM on April 29 [1 favorite]


People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...time-y wimey...stuff.

I know that's the wrong fandom but it still fits
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:31 PM on April 29 [12 favorites]


I'll get into longer-form reactions later, but I've got a theory on what Steve did that (IMO) fits both what we saw on the screen and the "Back to the Future is bullshit!" time travel mechanics.

1) Steve goes back in time and reunites with Peggy. This splits off an alternate timeline where they have a life together.

2) Steve stays completely under the radar, never going public as Captain America or otherwise derailing the timeline. He knows the future, and while he would sorely love to stop HYDRA sooner the potential price if the butterfly effect reaches the fight with Thanos would be incalculable.

3) Because the broad strokes of the timeline are functionally unchanged, Endgame happens just like we saw, and that timeline’s Steve goes back to the past to drop off the Infinity Stones after Tony’s funeral. At this point Steve goes to the park bench, sits down, and waits to be discovered by a Bucky and Sam who are not technically his Bucky and Sam, but are for all intents and purposes indistinguishable.

4) The cycle repeats. Steve-B decides to stay with Peggy, marries her and lives under the radar in timeline-C, which is again so close to the “prime” MCU as to be identical to someone who doesn’t know to look at one English ex-pat and her low-profile husband. Steve-C survives the events of Endgame, goes to the past, and spawns timeline-D. Not a time loop as such, because if Hulk is to be believed those aren’t possible in the MCU, but a time spiral, widening with every iteration.

5) all of this holds up in a metaphysical sense….as long as we accept that the MCU takes place in timeline-B (or later), and that the Steve in the ending is from the previous run-through.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:38 PM on April 29 [7 favorites]


I stress the importance of understanding that at no point is anyone actually traveling though time in Endgame. They're traveling to an alternate universe that reflects the past of the universe we know. You can fuck with those universes as much as you like because they'll never affect the universe you came from. You can go into a universe that exists a minute into the past, but it doesn't become your universe again if you wait a minute, it will always be an alternate universe existing in an alternate timeline. The only reason to return the stones to the universes they came from is because it's a dick move to permanently deprive that universe's heroes of the stones (One could argue it really isn't, but the Sorceress Supreme makes a good case for why she at least needs to get the time stone back).

Also, because it's alternate universes we're dealing with there's also alternate versions of our heroes doing the same thing our heroes are doing, the same events repeated countlessly in many different worlds. This is why there's an Old Steve at the end of the movie. He's not the same Steve that just left, he's an alternate Steve that settled down in our world after finishing his alternate mission returning his alternate infinity stones. He kept a low profile during the events of the movies because he wanted to keep the timeline of his new home as similar to the timeline he's familiar with as possible. And also he's retired and there's other people around to take care of that shit.

Unfortunately, there's no way I can see how 2012 Loki escaping means Loki is alive in "our" 2023 universe. He might still be alive in some alternate 2023, but it would be very different from the 2023 we know, since him escaping changes events even before the end of Avengers when we see Thor take Loki back to Asgard on the Bifrost. You'd need a Loki from another world to enter ours, the way Gamora did, and that's not something the space stone, or even the time stone, is capable of. Of course I won't be surprised if they say he's resurrected anyway, at which point I will throw all my notes into the air in disgust.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:54 PM on April 29 [9 favorites]


straight: Was he maybe on Thanos's ship when it traveled to our time period?

That's an interesting thought. The comic tone of Loki's poofing away made me assume he was just betraying/leaving Thanos at that point, especially since he already used the Tesseract to bring in the Chitauri and there was nothing else in it for him (I think).

(Something I'm now realizing about the 2012 bits is that I don't think we officially saw the original Avengers saving the day, only the "before" with invading monsters and the "after" with them on the elevator/stairs.)

But I believe the timeline in which Loki snatched the Tesseract never "joins up" with the one in which Thanos had Nebula summon him into the future. So he could never be on the ship, if only for that reason.

The whole notion of putting the Stones "back", as planned by Bruce and the Ancient One, doesn't really add up anyway... when last-act-Cap pops in from the future, he's either arrived before or after the other future Avengers did.

If before, then they'll never show up anyway -- he's created a new branch they can't reach. That's the easiest way for a time-traveler to "save" anyone or anything from another time-traveler, if the rule is that every trip backward necessarily forks the stream of time. But you're still not affecting the "original" timeline in which the Stone was stolen, you're just making a new one. And if he wanted, Steve could do this all day -- just keep hopping backward, so that the number of universes in which the New York temple is guarded by the Time Stone becomes vastly greater than the number in which it is not.

If he (or any other Stone-replacer) arrives after the other Avengers did, then whatever happens among them happens (perhaps including a fight between three Captains America), and presumably the result is a single Stone left in its place (Bruce and the Ancient One find the fighting Steves and clear up the confusion). But there was still that window of time, however short, after they arrived and before he did. And from that window extends a whole branch in which the Stone was taken... but no more travelers appeared. If time is strictly branching and never looping, then you can never time-travel "so hard" as to actually erase history that did, at some point, happen.

So in short, what karamkaze said ("I'm willing to come to a combination model of time travel."). And, for narrative reasons, this is actually the way of most time-travel stories ever created, assuming they grapple with the question at all. If time can always be changed, then time travel feels morally cheap. If it never can, then we lose the sense of freedom and unpredictability required for suspense.

Thus the compromise in stories ranging from Terminator to the third act of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. A group of characters makes their way through an adventure without being sure whether the future they know is still the one awaiting them. In the end, it is the same -- a satisfying loop. But not always! Both of those stories had sequels (well, the canonicty of Cursed Child is disputable but whatever) centering on "Actually you can change the past". Endgame has this both ways, yes, but in the same way that most of its kin do.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 1:03 PM on April 29 [2 favorites]


All y'all need to read "The Fabric of Reality" by David Deutsch, which (among many other things) contains the only model of time travel I've read that holds up to close logical examination. The argument is too long to summarize here, but the key summary is "other times are just special cases of other universes".
posted by Ipsifendus at 1:40 PM on April 29 [8 favorites]


I mean, is she? (I'm a Clint fan, so you're addressing me, but I'm also a Natasha fan, so I dunno.) She and Clint were partners, they've seemed to both be about the same power set for "normal humans." She uses guns and he uses a bow and arrow but they both draw from the same pot of baddass special-ops talents.

One of them was one of the main participants in taking down the decades-old HYDRA menace and ran the Avengers on apparently shoestring resources for five years. The other played William Tell and then went around murdering gang members. In a physical fight, they may be decently matched up (and, let's be real, both wildly outclassed by their teammates, as is painfully obvious in that famous 360 shot of the group in a circle during the Battle of New York), but that's not all that counts.
posted by praemunire at 1:55 PM on April 29 [13 favorites]


timeline’s Steve goes back to the past to drop off the Infinity Stones after Tony’s funeral.

But he can't just "drop off the stones" either. In addition to the whole situation with the Soul Stone, there's also putting the Space Stone back into the cube, having Jane Foster re-absorb the Reality stone, etc. So my idea is that Steve does go back to have that dance with Peggy and live a mostly normal life with her, except for the part where he spends his free time through the years figuring out how to get the stones back to where, when, and how they were with as least time disruption as possible, and palming some Pym particles here and there when he needs to refuel. He lays low, but it's not like he's completely sitting on the sidelines either.

I think this also kind of works out, because the super soldier serum slows down aging. Him traveling away for a few months on a project to return the stone, but coming back in what seems like a day trip or something in OTL would make him age at a much closer rate to a regular human too.
posted by FJT at 1:55 PM on April 29 [5 favorites]


Whatever our logic says the rules ought to be, the movie tells us what the rules are.

1. You can't do it unless someone like Tony plots a specific route that takes you to a particular timeline and back.

2. Bruce and Scott say if you go into the past you won't change it unless you meddle with your own personal timeline. You just are part of what already happened in your own past.

3. If you do mess with your own past, that's what creates a different timeline.

Since Old Man Steve shows up in our timeline without zapping back to the time machine where he started, he obviously did #2.
posted by straight at 2:09 PM on April 29


Since Old Man Steve shows up in our timeline without zapping back to the time machine where he started, he obviously did #2.

Which basically guarantees that he left Bucky to be tortured all that time. I've always been actively indifferent to Bucky, but that seems...pretty cold. I have a hard time imagining a Steve who would be happy in a world knowing that he had the ability to rescue Bucky, but didn't.
posted by praemunire at 2:22 PM on April 29 [2 favorites]


well alls he has to do to save Bucky is perform a simple time loop closing technique we call "dotting the I on Jeremy Bearimy" which involves [lengthy explanation that includes a reference to the work of an actual theoretical physicist] and anyway this is why time travel is delightful in comedic works that don't take themselves too seriously but is just fucking ruinous to anything that hopes to leverage dramatic tension once in a while
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:26 PM on April 29 [18 favorites]


The first three house rules I established once I was a parent:
  1. Treat each other with respect at all times
  2. Fries are for the table
  3. Absolutely no time travel
My eldest regularly tries to find exceptions for number three, but I won't budge.
posted by Tabitha Someday at 2:33 PM on April 29 [27 favorites]


I have a hard time imagining a Steve who would be happy in a world knowing that he had the ability to rescue Bucky, but didn't.

Or he knows it already happened and he can't change that.
posted by straight at 2:43 PM on April 29 [2 favorites]


One of them was one of the main participants in taking down the decades-old HYDRA menace and ran the Avengers on apparently shoestring resources for five years. The other played William Tell and then went around murdering gang members. In a physical fight, they may be decently matched up (and, let's be real, both wildly outclassed by their teammates, as is painfully obvious in that famous 360 shot of the group in a circle during the Battle of New York), but that's not all that counts.

Sure, but one of them was also a covert assassin for some number of years, so bad that SHIELD sent an operative to kill her but who made the choice to bring her in instead, helping her find some stability and a family. Both characters have done their time as murder hobos. The whole point of their relationship is that they're as close as family now - she's part of his family just like they're both part of the Avengers family. My heyday in the fandom is post-Avengers, where it was a literal found-family fest (everybody lives in Stark Towers and they have movie nights!) and you could interpret Clint and Natasha as best friends or you could ship them. But as the movies developed it became clear that their canon relationship was best friends who saw each other as family. Natasha isn't going to give up on a broken-from-grief Clint, just like he didn't give up on her when she was a globetrotting assassin.
posted by PussKillian at 2:47 PM on April 29 [7 favorites]


Steve also knows the outcomes of the future where HYDRA is allowed to grow in SHIELD, he knows the body count, he knows that Bucky will be saved eventually, Thanos defeated, etc.

He doesn't know what happens if he prevents those things, and if he does intervene, he just splits the timeline there and then. He knows eventually, generally, things will work out to be ok in the future. If he changes something, he can't be sure it will be. How amazing is that kind of retirement for his character? Knowing that he can stop being the protector of everyone and live in a time where he knows that things will, eventually, be better for it if he just hangs up the shield.
posted by mrzarquon at 2:50 PM on April 29 [8 favorites]


I mean it didn't help that I legitimately did not know where the Mind Stone was at that point in time. I know it was in Vision at the end, but that it was in Loki's staff after the first Avengers movie? NFC.

It really doesn't help that the Mind Stone is yellow yet Loki's staff glowed blue, like the Tesseract.
posted by thecjm at 3:33 PM on April 29 [18 favorites]


Natasha isn't going to give up on a broken-from-grief Clint, just like he didn't give up on her when she was a globetrotting assassin.

That's really beside the point of who would be more useful in undoing an apocalypse, though.
posted by praemunire at 5:13 PM on April 29 [1 favorite]


Again, I haven’t read the comics, but after Iron Man 2 I looked up Black Widow I read that she was given basically the same serum as Bucky, via Hydra.

So for the past eight years I’ve been telling my kids she’s basically as strong as Captain America and I’m sticking with that.
posted by annathea at 5:47 PM on April 29 [3 favorites]


Sure, I just think the rest of my previous post addressed that. I don’t think there’s much of a difference in what they each can do, skills-wise.

Stone-wise, I somehow lost track of things and was confused about where the tesseract was because Loki had taken it away even though there was a Whole Extra Setpiece about it. I got carried away with Tony and Howard, I guess. It wasn’t until I was about to ask what happened here that I went, “Ohhh!”
posted by PussKillian at 5:50 PM on April 29


I keep losing track of which theoretical model I'm following because of 2012 Loki. I've basically accepted the movie's general explanation that as long as the stones were replaced in their respective continuities the general trajectory will be okay, but I keep changing my mind if Loki's escape was 'erased' once Steve successfully replaced the tesseract back in camp Lehigh or not.
posted by cendawanita at 5:59 PM on April 29 [1 favorite]


I was reminded a lot of Battlestar Galactica 's "time jump" season finale, a trick that plenty of series apparently have pulled.
posted by HeroZero at 6:10 PM on April 29 [1 favorite]


I mean it didn't help that I legitimately did not know where the Mind Stone was at that point in time. I know it was in Vision at the end, but that it was in Loki's staff after the first Avengers movie? NFC.

It really doesn't help that the Mind Stone is yellow yet Loki's staff glowed blue, like the Tesseract.


There's also the fact that if Thanos's goal is to collect all six Infinity Stones, it doesn't make sense for him to give the only one he has on him to a flunky in order to collect a second from Earth... and instead of just bringing both back, the flunky uses the second one to create a portal for the invading Chitauri to come through, which is pointless since the Chitauri could have just hyper-jumped to Earth.

Yeah, Avengers was made before the rules of space travel were more codified in the GotG movies. But I wonder—when Joss Whedon wrote Avengers, did he know the Mind Stone was in the scepter? Or was that a convenient/cool decision made for Age of Ultron?
posted by ejs at 8:26 PM on April 29 [3 favorites]


Perhaps Thanos didn't know about the stones yet in Avengers 1 and was just coming to Earth to help out with the overpopulation problem. Maybe choosing Earth as an opportunity to get the Tesseract (rumored to be the key to getting around further/faster than Kree jump gates) to add to the Mind Staff he got somewhere else.

The Mind Staff is a handy thing, but if you don't know it's powered by an Infinity Stone, it's not necessarily so great that you'd never hand it to a lackey to delegate the job of going around and poking people in the chest one at a time.
posted by straight at 8:51 PM on April 29 [2 favorites]


It even seems likely he heard about the Tesseract from Ronan the Accuser via Yon-Rogg, and he figured the lightspeed drive would be handy for that whole killing-half-the-universe thing.
posted by ejs at 9:05 PM on April 29 [1 favorite]


I sorta wish they'd snuck in some of the TV Universe characters and such

I was hoping for Blade and Ghost Rider. Snipes/Cage 2019!
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:25 PM on April 29 [4 favorites]


it loses a star because it did not have a recap done in the so-cool-it's-actually-AWESOME style by Luis. I would honestly watch the movie again and again and again just for that. I simply can't forgive this oversight.
posted by alchemist at 1:01 AM on April 30 [26 favorites]


But I wonder—when Joss Whedon wrote Avengers, did he know the Mind Stone was in the scepter? Or was that a convenient/cool decision made for Age of Ultron?

According to my sources (read: my roommate who is hyper-into the MCU and actually worked on Iron Man 3 in a PA capacity), the stuff about the infinity stones was shoehorned into Age of Ultron. Whedon wrote the film his own way, and it was Marvel who came along and asked him to put all the infinity stone stuff in there so it would sync up with what they had in mind for future films. So...maybe he didn't.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:17 AM on April 30 [6 favorites]


Yeah, that tracks with my memories when the movies came out, too - the Tesseract and Thanos post-credits stinger made the Avengers nerds all "oooh shiiiiit infinity stones and Thanos, are they gonna do the *hushed whisper* infinity war??!??" Loki's staff? Not even a blip on the radar, it was just a magic Macguffin for all I think anybody was aware. The soul stone was new in Infinity War and the time stone was a major part of Doctor Strange, so 3 for 6? I guess that's better than I would've hoped, I guess.

Weird, checking through GotG, sure enough, it's explicitly called out as an Infinity Stone and this would've definitely been past the point where I knew that was a big thing in the MCU and yet it just sorta went in one ear and out the other. Eh.

Thor 2, well, that was years ago and pretty early in the series and I think I only watched it the one time.

Giving a quick once over of the subtitles for AoU though, it felt like they just sort of went from chasing after the scepter just because they didn't want to leave it in Hydra's hands to zappity-boo hey hey here's Vision with the mind stone in his forehead? I'll have to watch it again, I guess. Good thing I liked it. James Spader, y'know?
posted by Kyol at 6:37 AM on April 30 [2 favorites]


It's not terribly clear how Thanos found out about the Infinity Stones; Loki seems to have been ignorant of its true nature, and probably Thanos was too. (Which is good, because considering how dangerous full-villain-mode Loke would have been if he were directly utilizing the power of the Mind Stone... *shudder*) My general thoughts about the Infinity Stones is that they were probably scattered on purpose, their true natures hidden in the guise of other power objects and protected by the likes of the sorcerers of Kamar-Taj, or whichever dead civilization ruled Morag. How up to three of them ended up on earth at one time, who knows; the comics have long dabbled in a sort of geocentrism/human exceptionalism, with the Sorcerer Supreme (Strange) living there, the nexus of all realities (Man-Thing), the current recipient of the Phoenix Force (Jean Grey), etc. I should also mention that the comics made it pretty clear that the stones couldn't be destroyed, and I wondered before seeing Endgame if that would be the big twist: that destroying the Stones would eventually destroy the universe, and that therefore Thanos saved the universe when he recreated Vision using the Time Stone in order to get the Mind Stone.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:52 AM on April 30 [5 favorites]


(although I'll cop to it probably being personal about the mind stone - I was totally willing to go along for the ride for the reality stone and the power stone had a cute diegetic moment, but the mind and space stone segments just sorta dragged. EVEN WITH Tony Stark having a heart to heart with pops, lampshading his sacrifice...)
posted by Kyol at 6:54 AM on April 30


They had clearly decided the staff contained an infinity stone by the time they made Winter Soldier because that's when they teased the existence of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, whose powers were derived from Hydra's experiments with the staff. And Vision is such a central part of the narrative of Age of Ultron that Whedon had to know at least that much when he was writing. He probably didn't know about it when he wrote the first Avengers movie though. I'm not sure whether the idea that the Tesseract contained the space stone was known at the time of the first Avengers either.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:55 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure whether the idea that the Tesseract contained the space stone was known at the time of the first Avengers either.

Good point. Watching Avengers and the first Captain America, the Tesseract was clearly the cinematic version of the Cosmic Cube, which was its own thing in the comics unrelated to the Infinity Stones.
posted by ejs at 7:05 AM on April 30 [10 favorites]


I'm surprised that I can't remember anyone referring to the Tesseract as the Cosmic Cube, even as an easter egg joke, à la "Hail Hydra".
posted by Grangousier at 7:08 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


(By the way, I hope the Eternals movie is true to its source - basically just panoramas of colossal, inexplicable machines and people with amazing hats mouthing incomprehensible, exposition-heavy dialogue while striking dynamic poses and waving their arms around.)
posted by Grangousier at 7:11 AM on April 30 [9 favorites]


Couple of thoughts: if everyone just reappears where they disappeared from, what about people that were on planes or boats? Or in cars? People are just going to fall out of the sky or reappear in the middle of highways?

The first half of this movie should have just used the score from The Leftovers

Ok now back to read the comments
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:20 AM on April 30 [4 favorites]


Oh and Captain Marvel can punch through spaceships but not Thanos? WTF is he made of?
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:24 AM on April 30 [5 favorites]


LizBoBiz, you'll see this when you read the comments, but someone (sorry, can't remember who) basically posited that Bruce was smart enough to snap everyone back safely, regardless of how/where they disappeared. I like that theory.
posted by cooker girl at 7:25 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


> "... the comics have long dabbled in a sort of geocentrism/human exceptionalism"

Very true. Which is why one thing I liked about the X-Men of my distant youth is that when they fought e.g. the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, they got *completely* annihilated. It was on order of, "Oh, your planet has superhero teams? That's cute. Here's my INTERSTELLAR EMPIRE'S superhero team."
posted by kyrademon at 7:43 AM on April 30 [3 favorites]


No-prizing the logistics of what Professor Green did:

* Banner is smart, but not smartest there is. There's bigger brains around, even though he's like, a really smart person. (RIP, Phil.)
* Hulk on the other hand, is strongest there is. But sometimes he forgets this because:
** The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets.
*** There is no upper bound on how angry Hulk can get.
* Banner's secret, Cap? He is always angry. He usually covers it, but when the cover slips, when someone, or something gets at him: he knows he can choke the life from them and never turn a shade. (faithful readers, see Age of Ultron --ed.)

Bruce threw himself into work in the gamma labs after their IW loss, to weld Hulk's brawn to Banner's brains. This had some side-effects.

Banner is, as a fundamental force, always angry--that's why Hulk was in him to be unleashed back when he looked like Ed Norton (It is unclear whether or not that's what made him angry; further research is suggested). Accepting that aspect of himself is what allowed him to marry brawn to brain, but accepting a thing doesn't do away with a thing. It didn't make Banner not angry. His anger remains.

Marrying brawn to brain doesn't just mean they coexist. They make a new thing between them, the relationship of them (they always did, but Banner made it a lot more functional relationship). Banner wielding the infinity gauntlet is angrier than he has ever been. Trillions--if not more--dead. Everywhere. All those kids who want a selfie with him, that he puts a smiling face over top of, he knows it's a spot of cheer over their own pain.

Hulk. SMASH.

But smashing can't fix it. Which only makes Banner madder. And the madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets. And Hulk is married and fused now. Brawn is married to brain, they're partners. With the gauntlet: the madder Banner gets, the smarter Banner gets. In that frozen moment of omnipotent power, his rage at what Thanos did to everything and everyone is infinite.

So you're damn right Banner handled even the tiniest logistics of making sure everyone came back in a safe way.
posted by Drastic at 7:57 AM on April 30 [32 favorites]


I am going to DIE MAD about Natasha.

I am going to DIE MILDLY ANNOYED that the movie acted like Bucky and Steve barely knew each other. (I would have died happy with one scene of them fighting side by side, but WHATEVER.)
posted by Aquifer at 8:01 AM on April 30 [9 favorites]


Avengers: Endgame directors answer Captain America mystery

Short answers:
Cap went to live in another timeline.
It’s a mystery how he got back to the main timeline.
Whether he used his foreknowledge to dismantle Hydra or stop Thanos in the other timeline may be addressed in the upcoming What-If series.
Bucky knew.
posted by ejs at 8:25 AM on April 30 [14 favorites]


Oh and Captain Marvel can punch through spaceships but not Thanos? WTF is he made of?

In the comic books, there are lots of characters who are much, much more durable than any spaceship. Thanos is one of them. And that's apparently also the case in the MCU. Thor could also smash his way through Thanos's landing ships in the previous movie, and Thanos seems to be at least as strong as he is.
posted by straight at 8:57 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


Oh and Captain Marvel can punch through spaceships but not Thanos? WTF is he made of?

I'm going to go with force = mass x acceleration

Captain Marvel's mass was the same in both instances but her acceleration sure wasn't.
posted by acidnova at 9:05 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


In the comic books, there are lots of characters who are much, much more durable than any spaceship. Thanos is one of them.

Is this ever explained? Everyone from his planet just is that way? Maybe that's how he became such a Malthusian, from observing the resources it took to sustain population of large, dense, Thor/Danvers-proof Titans.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:17 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


In the comics Thanos is an Eternal, a race that is powerful the way Asgardians are powerful. And he was a super-scientist who used super-science to make himself stronger and more powerful than most other Eternals.
posted by straight at 9:37 AM on April 30 [3 favorites]


Can we talk about the post-credits (barely-a)-scene of the sound of Morgan hammering herself a new Iron suit?
posted by medusa at 10:15 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


For all of my mixed feelings about this movie, I guarantee that by the end of the year, two of my best movie moments will still be Sam Wilson coming through on Cap's ear piece and all the Avengers Dr. Stranging onto the battlefield, and the Marvel ladies backing up Captain Marvel. I burst into tears both times. (And might have whisper-yelled, "FALCOOOOOOOON!!!!")
posted by Aquifer at 10:29 AM on April 30 [5 favorites]


I thought it was a call-back to Tony forging himself the suit in the cave?
posted by cooker girl at 10:30 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


I think nobody knows for sure what the sound is. People have inferred it to relate to Iron Man's suit, Captain America's shield, and Thor's hammer.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:45 AM on April 30


The movie telegraphed pretty clearly that Morgan will continue Tony's work. She had some cheeseburgers and then hit the garage. Obviously.
posted by medusa at 10:50 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]


I just took it as kind of a meta comment that Marvel studios is working on the next phase of movies, don't worry!
posted by Aquifer at 10:53 AM on April 30 [6 favorites]


I, uh, wasn't worried.
posted by kyrademon at 11:41 AM on April 30 [3 favorites]


All I’m saying is that if 4-year-old Morgan does make herself some Iron Toddler armor, they had better get Taika Waititi to direct.
posted by ejs at 12:00 PM on April 30 [22 favorites]


Saw it on Saturday and finally have all my thoughts organized. Here's my take:

The first 1/3 (up to the Time Heist) was BRILLIANT. The rest was good. So overall, quite a good movie.

Things I particularly liked:

Five Years Later
Everyone dealing with PTSD, survivor's guilt, trauma, and despair
Where they went with Thor (but see below)
Where they went with Nebula (my vote for movie MVP)
Where they went with Hulk
The revisits to previous movies
Cap being clever in 2012
The Banner/Ancient One conversation
The many well-done culminating moments in the final battle (e.g. Cap/Mjolnir, On your left, Punching out a spaceship, You took everything from me, She'll have help, Activate instant kill, Headbutt *clink*, I am Iron Man)

Things I wasn't so fond of:

Fat jokes
Natasha's death
The continued decision to simply erase whatever character progress Peter Quill has made in the Guardians of the Galaxy movies
Several things that could have been explained SO EASILY, but they just ... didn't (e.g. Tony getting the gems off of Thanos, Steve showing up at the end despite the alternate-timeline plot) -- I certainly *can* come up with explanations for those, but they weren't actually in the movie

Thing I enjoyed more than I otherwise would for personal reasons:

My astrophysicist spouse was amused that Thor was still hung up on Jane Foster, and afterwards said to me, "Once you go astrophysicist, you never ... (long pause) ... Nothing rhymes with astrophysicist."
posted by kyrademon at 12:36 PM on April 30 [33 favorites]


Good lord, the guy in the support group was the first openly gay MCU character.
posted by Etrigan at 12:40 PM on April 30 [10 favorites]


America's ass on that physicist.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:17 PM on April 30 [1 favorite]


Joe Russo held a Q&A where, among other questions, he answered:

Q: There were some metal smashing sound when the movie ended. Was that an easter egg? or just a tribute to Iron Man, or maybe an implication that Iron Man will return?

A: It was our way to say goodbye to him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame
posted by alchemist at 1:22 PM on April 30 [11 favorites]


I thought it was pretty good. Loved a lot of the big moments but found the first 70 minutes pretty boring.

I wish I hadn't had to sit through infinity war to get here tho. Still kinda hate that one. But this was a lot of fun, seemed to remember that it's based on a gimmicky comic event.
posted by French Fry at 1:28 PM on April 30


Tony getting the gems off of Thanos

See, I liked that. I didn’t exactly see it coming, but the moment he grabbed the glove and Thanos threw him off, I figured Stark had built in at least one back door or extra function, because of course he did. If three Iron Man movies taught us anything, Tony Stark is all in on feature creep. That glove probably also brews espresso.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:43 PM on April 30 [32 favorites]


So this WaPo MCU by the numbers article had one fact that blew my mind: 17 Oscar winners have appeared in the MCU. Frustratingly, the article doesn't give a complete list, so I went through and checked, and apparently that's appearing on screen, because if you include voice-over work that adds an 18th.

Gwyneth Paltrow, Jeff Bridges, William Hurt, Sam Rockwell, Natalie Portman, Anthony Hopkins, Tommy Lee Jones, Ben Kingsley, Benicio del Toro, Robert Redford, Michael Douglas, Marisa Tomei, Tilda Swinton, Jennifer Connelly (VO), Cate Blanchett, Lupita Nyong'o, Forest Whitaker, Brie Larson.

If you're wondering, "wait, where did X appear," Wikipedia conveniently has it all on one page.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:46 PM on April 30 [7 favorites]


> If you're wondering, "wait, where did X appear"...

INTERNAL MONOLOGUE:

Wait, Ben Kingsley? Forest Whitaker was in Rogue One, but where in the MCU did ...?

Yes! Whew. DevilsAdvocate read my mind - and yes! they included a handy link.

But nooooo this is a long list, not just the 18 Oscar winners! Noooooo.... I demand to be spoon fed!

Well, that was quite a ride.
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:17 PM on April 30 [1 favorite]




This bit of historical analysis of box office performance at BMD is pretty entertaining for its own what-if scenarios, starting if Sony had said yes to having all of Marvel IPs in the first place: Endgame broke all the records and made all the money
posted by cendawanita at 5:51 PM on April 30 [1 favorite]


> "I figured Stark had built in at least one back door or extra function, because of course he did."

Sure, but that's kind of exactly what I was talking about. We can figure out that was likely what happened without too much trouble, but it means there was a moment where I was going, "Wait ... how did ... ? Oh, I guess he probably ... all right, I suppose that makes sense."

Whereas if 45 minutes earlier there had been a visual without comment of the gauntlet having an "eject stones in case of emergency" function, or if there had been a subtle two-second dialogue exchange --

"Is that glove safe?" "Same technology as the Mark LVII Iron Man suit." "So, no."

-- then my in-the-moment reaction would have been "OHHHHHHH!"

And I'd have preferred the OHHHHHHH.
posted by kyrademon at 6:22 PM on April 30 [6 favorites]


The visuals that prepped us for the transfer of stones from the Stark-tech gauntlet to the Iron Man suit start with the first time we see the nano tech suit pour out of the arc reactor on hoodie-wearing Tony's chest in Infinity War. And then again when the Iron Spider suit envelopes Spider-Man.

We know Tony has amazing voice-assisted AI and nanotech. It's not a leap to understand how the stones were shifted to his hand, that's one aspect of the movie that's pretty well telegraphed.

I'm still trying to figure out how Thanos got to the future from 2014 tho.
posted by annathea at 8:50 PM on April 30 [2 favorites]


He synthesized Pym Particles and a Time GPS from the ones that 2023 Nebula was carrying, and 2014 Nebula used the time platform to pull him through the quantum realm like the rest of the time travelers.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:59 PM on April 30 [3 favorites]




Autostraddle: 15 Gayest Moments From “Avengers: Endgame,” Which Was Great But Unfortunately Not Gay

I’m a gay geek girl who loves being gay, and when I watch movies all I look for or see is The GaynessTM. That’s even true in movies like The Avengers franchise, which admittedly doesn’t give a girl a lot to work with.
posted by ellieBOA at 1:44 AM on May 1 [7 favorites]


Whereas if 45 minutes earlier there had been a visual without comment of the gauntlet having an "eject stones in case of emergency" function, or if there had been a subtle two-second dialogue exchange --

But that would have required a 45 minute product demo where Stark explains that it’s fully adjustable, has an ejector function, customizable colors, a comfy breathable inner layer, a blood pressure monitor, has pretty good streaming functions, and makes a nice cup of coffee. It would be like Thor’s mission briefing, but with a better PowerPoint.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:34 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]


Avengers: Endgame directors answer Captain America mystery

Short answers:
Cap went to live in another timeline.
It’s a mystery how he got back to the main timeline.


I mean, the elderly Steve Rogers (SR-B) who shows up at the end isn't the same Steve Rogers (SR-A) that went back to deliver the infinity stones. SR-A is living in a different timeline, and in some other timeline, SR-B went back in time to deliver the infinity stones, decided to stay, and the alternate timeline he lived in is the one depicted in the 20 or so MCU movies. In the simplest case, SR-A goes to the B timeline, and SR-B goes to the A timeline, but probably there are SRs-1 to SR-∞ doing ∞ SR swaps.

There is no main timeline; its alternate timelines all the way down.

time is a flat circle
posted by logicpunk at 5:53 AM on May 1 [9 favorites]


My thoughts after a day or so of mulling:
  • This is the first time I’ve used the mid-film intermission to actually pee since my last pregnancy 4 years ago.
  • Per usual, I need to see the English version now, because I need to see if the timey-wimey stuff is making less sense to me due to some translation choices, especially with that moebius strip reference when Tony solves the time travel problem.
  • I know RDJ’s gold minting contract is at an end, but am I the only one who thought of Helen Cho’s Cradle tech as everyone is crying over Tony’s fade out?
  • Hubs is confused as to why Stormbreaker was seemingly less powerful this time around
  • PANDER TO ME MOAR, MARVEL. More AvengHers, more Scarlet Witch finally kicking massive ass, more Valkyrie, more Captain Marvel, more Shuri, Nakia and Okoye, more representation across the board and faster, please. I don’t want to wait another 10 years for LBGTQIA/Islamic/Asian/Latinx/ etc. headliners.
Overall, I loved it and was a lot more verklempt than Infinity War. I also think it was the first time I’ve heard audience commentary since Monica Bellucci came on screen in Matrix Reloaded (Steve picking up the hammer was the most memorable, eliciting a E mo’ so’ cazzi tua in our sparsely populated mid morning showing)
posted by romakimmy at 6:25 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]


WAIT. Italians get an INTERMISSION at the movies??

Sign me up.
posted by cooker girl at 6:42 AM on May 1 [16 favorites]


While I was driving to the theater to watch Endgame last night I was trying to sort out my feelings for why I was excited to see it. I have watched all the movies but I'm not nearly as emotionally invested as some of other people I know. The movies are enjoyable but they're not stories or characters I identify with on a deep level.

I started the series with Iron Man in the theater. It was during a time in my life where my one real friend was a major comic nerd. I wasn't especially into comics but I was curious enough that I pretended to be more interested than I was in order to develop the relationship and along the way I found a number of comic series I really enjoyed. He was my gateway to my favorite comic series: Thor, Fantastic Four, Super Man, and the Justice League. We didn't watch Iron Man in theaters together but we did both ditch work when it came out on DVD (not even Blu Ray!) to watch it at another one of our friend's house.

We were close up the Winter Soldier but after that our lives went in different directions. These movies though were always touchstones for us. We would chat about our reactions over text and gauge theories on what would happen next. But slowly we stopped doing that. And even though I have enjoyed the slate of films since Winter Soldier my attendance was usually a bit perfunctory (Ragnarok notwithstanding).

And I realized while I was driving to the theater last night when I started the series with Iron Man I was 24-years old and a completely different person. I didn't have kids, I didn't own a house, I was working a job I hated, I lived across the country, and I didn't know who I was as an adult if I'm perfectly honest. I have enjoyed having these movies in my life and all the joy they have brought to me but I'm ready to move on from the line that tied my back to a different era of my life.

For that reason, Endgame was the perfect movie for me. I feel like I can move on.

The story that began with Iron Man has ended. I will probably eventually get around to watching whatever they come up with in the future but I won't spend time carefully studying stills and following fan forums about what the next movies will be like I did after Iron Man first came out. I just won't be invested in the same way. It wont' be my story. Maybe it will be the story for my kids, and maybe it will be our story that we share together.
posted by Tevin at 6:59 AM on May 1 [11 favorites]


logicpunk: In the simplest case, SR-A goes to the B timeline, and SR-B goes to the A timeline, but probably there are SRs-1 to SR-∞ doing ∞ SR swaps.

Yes. And hence not so much a "swap" as a game of musical chairs.

(A swap is how I've always liked to interpret the original Back to the Future; the "Lone Pine Marty" who was born to rich, successful parents went back in time and managed not to hit that tree on his trip; all his adventures either caused, or at least didn't prevent, the world known as normal to "Twin Pines Marty", our main character who himself caused the Lone Pine world. I don't think that was the script's intention, but whatever.)

romakimmy: Per usual, I need to see the English version now, because I need to see if the timey-wimey stuff is making less sense to me due to some translation choices, especially with that moebius strip reference when Tony solves the time travel problem.

I don't think the moebius strip part was itself supposed to be explanatory; it was more a stand-in for technobabble, like the physicists' names he drops. (I think it specifically represented Tony and his computer solving the problem of not turning time-travelers into babies.)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:45 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]


Logicpunk, that was my thinking too, but by my read the interview says this was still Steve-A – he used his old time suit and Pym Particles to jump back “home” after he buried Peggy.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:10 AM on May 1 [4 favorites]


Regardless of whether Nat's death was really justifiable, all I could think after that scene was "wow, the soul stone really has a thing for red heads."
posted by Cold Lurkey at 9:35 AM on May 1 [10 favorites]


It’s how it maintains its lovely orange glow.
posted by ejs at 9:45 AM on May 1 [12 favorites]


Did they totally drop the hinted at Adam Warlock from the GoTG2 end-credits scene or is that going to be part of GoTG3?
posted by kokaku at 9:51 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]


17 Oscar winners have appeared in the MCU.

After my one viewing of Endgame, I tried to think of how many speaking characters were played by people who aren’t, like, megastars. Outside of child actors, I can only recall the HYDRA agents in the elevator, and maybe John Slattery and Yvette Nicole Brown depending what you mean by megastar. For a movie with this many characters, that is a ridiculous amount of celebrity.
posted by gauche at 10:42 AM on May 1


Man, it's convenient to hate time travel enough that I just do not care about the particulars. The main plot gets enough this is how it works so nothing seems too how the fuck does THAT work? in the moment, IMNSHO. Whether or not the Captain American retirement at the very end fits in right makes for nice beanplating.

Personally I just assume the MCU has the infinity stones operating as the comic world's Doomlock. Those don't make any fuckin sense either so why not? If I run into Layla Miller I'll ask her to explain but otherwise I'll accept the hand-waving.

Except for “eat a salad” I think I was okay with Realistic Thor.

I feel like they missed a chance to have her suggest that perhaps he should switch to light mead.

Which means one of the alternate realities created over the course of this film is The One Where Captain America Fixes The 20th Century. Steve Prime could have arranged to get there after Steve X went into the ice, so there's no confusion unless/until Steve X is found.

Whelk already wrote it.

My only complaint about this is once you enter the realm of countless alternate universes it's hard to care about what happens to them.

As I have said over in discussions about the Flash tv show on CW, I have pretty much gone full time nihilist. Oh you erased a whole slew of people and now kid X is kid Y? Whatever, kid X never actually existed so nobody misses him so everyone just shut up your whining like you actually feel any sense of loss.

However I think it makes pretty perfect sense for the heroes to be unwilling to just abandon a timeline to disaster because of their actions. It's still murder even if you shoot someone who only has an hour left to live and if it doesn't matter to starfish as a species it still matters to the one you throw back in.
posted by phearlez at 11:23 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]


I tried to think of how many speaking characters were played by people who aren’t, like, megastars.

Jeremy Renner is certainly in the "not megastars" category.

I'd also put in the "just plain old movie actors" category Zoe Saldana, Evangeline Lilly, Anthony Mackie, Hayley Atwell, and possibly even Ruffalo.
posted by anastasiav at 12:04 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]


he used his old time suit and Pym Particles to jump back “home” after he buried Peggy.

If he did that, he would have appeared on the time platform just as they expected, but older than they expected. They'd be like, "Bruce! It's screwed up again!" and Steve would be like, "No, wait, the time machine didn't make me old, well, not the way you're thinking..."
posted by straight at 12:21 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]


What's amazing to me is how many characters in this movie had a significant part in an earlier movie so that even if we only see them for 30 seconds we know who they are and what that expression on their face probably means. A mind-boggling number of characters. I count at least 46. FORTY SIX characters--that we've seen played by those actors, not just from other media--who have had a big enough part for us to have reason to care about them. This seems like it sets Endgame apart more than anything. Has there ever been a movie that comes close to that?
posted by straight at 12:44 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]




I'm not sure I'd call that "sociopathic" revenge. That's some...Loki-level stuff, however.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:08 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


oooooookaaaaaay then
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:16 PM on May 1


One element that I don't think anyone has addressed: Nebula sent Clint and Nat off to get the soul stone knowing full well that only one of them would be coming back, and she didn't tell anyone else about it. Which I think makes practical sense - if she'd told, they might have tried to find some way around it and increased the chance of failure, plus she doesn't especially know or trust these people yet. But it's an interesting thing.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:42 PM on May 1 [8 favorites]


I was trying to figure that out. Do we know if she knew that was a thing?
posted by PussKillian at 1:56 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I didn't think anyone (but Thanos) knew ahead of time that was the price of the Soulstone. As far as Nebula knew, he got it on that planet.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:15 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


Weren't a bunch of them present when Thanos said he had to sacrifice her, causing Quill to freak out and interrupt their attempt to pull off the gaunlet?
posted by InTheYear2017 at 2:30 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


Yeah but he didn’t explain the how or why, I think? Maybe I’m misremembering, but I thought all they knew was that he let her die on Soulworld, not that doing so was the enforced price of getting the stone.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:33 PM on May 1


Found this transcript online:
Mantis: [crying] He… he… mourns.

Drax: What does this monster have to mourn?!

Nebula: Gamora.

Peter Quill: [pause] What?

Nebula: [realising with horror and sadness what has happened.] He took her to Vormir. He came back with the Soul Stone... but she didn't.

Tony Stark: [grasps the danger immediately and dehelmets] Okay, Quill, you gotta cool it right now, you understand?

[Quill slowly turns to Thanos]

Tony Stark: [shouting his pleads desperately] Don't, don't, don't engage, we've almost got this off!

Peter Quill: Tell me she's lying. [enraged] ASSHOLE! Tell me you didn't do it!

Thanos: I... had... to.
So it would have been reasonable for Nebula to have figured out what the situation must be, but she wouldn't necessarily know for sure.
posted by Redstart at 3:55 PM on May 1 [10 favorites]


I assume that anyone who heard the "I had to" and that he sacrificed her to get the soul stone would not assume it was a literal trade of a life like you've ordered up a latte. More likely they think the trip was perilous or he made her check for traps or any of a million other things. You wouldn't think he has the soul stone now because some watery tart flayed nazi lobbed it to him. So you send out your teammates to do the mission thinking someone might die in the process because that's this superhero life they're all about, not because one of them needs to be smoothed flat to get the wrinkes out and fed into a cosmic stone dispenser.
posted by phearlez at 7:38 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]


Just got back (latecomer to the party I guess) but what happened to the other Steve? I couldn’t read the whole thread, but someone up there suggested that when Now Steve travels back that Then Steve goes to an alternate reality. But we know that’s not true because they met and fought each other. So in the lovely dance scene at the end there’s presumably another Steve in that reality.
posted by transient at 7:47 PM on May 1


Many of these same questions occurred to me watching it too.  What about this timeline?  What about that Steve?  What about all the people brought back in unfortunate locations?  What about the the lack of food now for all these people?  Then I just shrugged and figured, "The Reality Stone is involved.  It's whatever they wanted to happen," and I stopped caring.  It's a comic book movie.  Comic book rules apply.

It's a bit facile, but the Infinity Stones, man. They fuck up all logical cause and effect, so *shrug*.  It's hard for me to demand fidelity an arbitrary set of make-believe time travel rules when they're involved, so I just enjoyed the ride.  The bigger picture hung together, and that was enough.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 9:36 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]


Yeah, fair enough.
posted by transient at 12:57 AM on May 2


I think I'm just going to apply the EWE (epilogue, what epilogue) tag to Tony's funeral and Steve's ending. They were fanservice moments to say good-bye to the actors and don't make sense for the characters or the plot.
posted by saffry at 3:20 AM on May 2 [4 favorites]


There is only one timeline. There is only one Steve.

Hulk brought back all the dusted people. Tony destroyed time-traveling Thanos and his army while also maintaining the world as it is- daughter and all. It's a god-glove. It can do anything, even resolve time travel paradoxes.

Steve went back to return all the stones, and then went to some year after he got frozen and lived a happy life with Peggy. He lived through all the MCU movies and went out to Stark's place the day of the funeral to meet up with his friends. There's no second Steve, just one looping back to overlap his own timeline.
posted by The Man from Lardfork at 5:55 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


There can't be "only one timeline" in which Loki both did and did not escape with the Tesseract, or any of the other changes we see. One might say that "originally" he hadn't, but "afterward" it was always the case that he had... but.... this idea that past events can be changed in the sense of no longer being "real" is the only notion in the wonderful wibbly wobbly world of time travel that actually bugs me, though I'm willing to suspend it to enjoy stories.

The Ancient One herself makes exactly the point that isn't made enough in these narratives: my parallel universe matters just as much as yours, mister; neither one "overrides" the other into true nonexistence. (In Doctor Who, one particular episode explores that well -- The Girl Who Waited, also featuring Karen Gillan who plays Nebula.)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:13 AM on May 2 [5 favorites]


Yeah, with my third rewatch, the dialogue is pretty clear that we're talking about jumping into different timelines-slash-realities. You've got the Ancient One insisting that her (and all other's) reality needs their Infinity Stones or whatever comes next for them would be worse (triggering Bruce's promise) and the whole test sequence where the basic gist of why Rhodey and Scott were wrong to depend on the other cited time travel movies is because fundamentally from their pov, their past is fixed, so nothing is changed. If they travel 'back' in time, that's their future and eventual present. So their upcoming future is taking place in a point of time that's either backwards (or forwards) but not their past reality because that's happened to them already.

There's a near infinite loop of Steve just basically staying awhile with Peggy it seems, visiting a different Sam and Bucky (OR) he finally chose to return but in a less than ideal arrangement so he lands slightly off /comic book logic
posted by cendawanita at 6:37 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


It is just barely possible to repair the continuity of Loki escaping from New York. It's a common fan theory that Loki wanted to wind up in Asgard at the end of Avengers. Thor killed we don't know how many Ice Giants unprovoked and basically got a vacation. It's not like Loki was expecting to be tortured or killed back home for a similar bodycount. Even in the main continuity, he got a vacation in a little cell with access to most of his magic, books, comfortable furniture, and regular family visits. So Loki might well have gone to Asgard to show "contrition" to be in position for whatever his next scheme was going to be, and, incidentally, someplace with decent protection from retribution for botching the invasion of Midgard.

Mind, that theory does not change Loki's eventual death in Infinity War, because it puts him back on the same path that lead him to the refugee ship in possession of the mind stone.
posted by Karmakaze at 6:44 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


In any case there're at least 3 main realities where things worked out better eventually than our prime because of the meddling, and as far as the Ancient One is concerned, the only detail they're sweating is the existence of the stones in the right reality:

1. NYC because that Steve now knows about Hydra and Bucky sooner, together with a more suspicious Tony because he's definitely going to be looking into why he's got his heart sabotaged AND/OR speeding up IM3's resolution with his heart surgery and maybe they'll bond faster and the sokovia incident etc won't happen the way it did. That Loki also isn't under Asgardian capture and won't be tempted by the dark elves.

2. Camp Lehigh reality where Tony might actually influenced Howard to be a better dad (might lead to changes on that branch of Hydra development)

3. Space!2014 reality where Thanos is just straight up gone and dusted. So no one's collecting the stones. Peter Quill might stay a douche tho. Might get eaten up by his Celestial dad eventually
posted by cendawanita at 6:48 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


I figure Old Steve returned a few minutes early and a short distance away from the platform because his device had been in storage for a few decades and was slightly out of calibration. Enough time and space to change clothes and go have a seat by the river.
posted by chimpsonfilm at 7:46 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I'm going to pretend that the Ancient One noticed what Steve Rogers was up to, and fixed all the contradictions to make it possible for him to live the life he wanted, up to and including when he came back to hand off the shield.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:16 AM on May 2 [10 favorites]


The Man from Lardfork, while I agree that the visual language of the movie says that Steve lived out his life in our timeline, Joe Russo just gave an interview and in fact Steve was in a different timeline and jumped back to ours. And there is one visual tell, to be fair: he's got a shield, which a hidden-Steve would not have had the opportunity to have made in our timeline.

I'm willing to accept this because it makes Steve *way* less of an asshole, or at least gives the opportunity for him to not be: he can have not lied to Peggy and watched as she built Hydra-in Shield, rescued Bucky both for himself and to help his friend Howard not to get murdered, continued to fight the good fight.

It's bad direction, though.
posted by tavella at 8:50 AM on May 2 [6 favorites]


Incidentally Space!2014, which is now Thanos-less, is a reality in which Thanos doesn’t chop up Cap’s shield. So the argument can be made that it’s where Sam’s new shield comes from, likely after a lifetime of Space!2014 Cap using it.
posted by ejs at 8:59 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I loved it and I love the comic book guy-esqe pedantic dissection the timeline crap. It's 13 year old me arguing over this shit in my friend's basement after school. In a three hour movie they button it up with a 5 second segment that assumes Steve:

1. Jumped to the 70s and managed to get the space stone back to the base in Jersey and encased in something resembling the original tesseract.
2. Shot ahead to 2012 and put the mind stone into a Loki's staff shaped object in order to return it to the hands of Hydra so that Wanda and Peter can get "enhanced".
3. Handed the time stone back to the ancient one.
4. Chill out for a year and then hit up Heimdall for a trip over the bifost to Asgard so he can drop off the hammer and put the reality stone back into Jane.
5. Find a ride to Morag so he can put the power stone back in the temple and close the door.
6. Head on over to Vormir and unknowingly meet his oldest foe. A guy who founded Hydra, captured Bucky, killed countless friends, and caused the events that lead to him being frozen for most of a century and hand over one of the most powerful artifacts in the cosmos.
7. Head back to an appropriate time to go meet Peggy and live out retirement.

I also fully support 6 seasons and a movie of the Loki spin-off provided it begins with his escape from New York and ends with him having grown and changed but gagged and returning to the lobby of Stark tower in 2012.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:05 AM on May 2 [11 favorites]


I’m just imagining the past Thor yelling “where the FUCK is my hammer?!”
posted by transient at 9:54 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


After holding his arm out for about an hour, getting increasingly annoyed, Thor begins to snooze. On the other side of Asgard, Steve winks into existence. Immediately the hammer is snatched from his hands, flying off to its rightful owner. Just as Thor gives up, the hammer smashes through the window, bops him on the head and knocks him out cold.
posted by Grangousier at 10:32 AM on May 2 [12 favorites]


I'm glad he confirmed that Steve was in a different timeline, because I really appreciated the rules they established for time travel, (a personal bugbear of mine, as discussed previously). Him showing up on the bench broke the otherwise consistent rules they'd established.

Given that he's explicitly not breaking those rules (thank goodness), I'd infer that he got back to this timeline some other way. He's had a long time, and, in returning the stones been a lot of interesting places in the meantime. He must have found something.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:34 AM on May 2 [6 favorites]


Is it this CBM interview?

Avengers: Endgame wraps up with Steve Rogers finally sharing a dance with Peggy Carter, and it appears as if that takes place during World War II. We know that she ultimately gets married to someone who isn't Steve, though, so what exactly does that mean?

"We can't answer it for now," Joe said, "this is a story that happened in an alternate reality. Maybe it will be revealed in the future." In other words, this confirms that the life Steve lived was in another timeline and while he may have spent his life with a Peggy, the one we know still lived out her life with someone else before passing away during the events of Captain America: Civil War.

-----


"To me, CA's action in the end wasn't the fact he wanted to change anything, it's more like me has made a choice. He chose to go back to past and lived with the one he loved for the rest of his life. The time travel in this movie created an alternate reality. He lived a completely different life in that world. We don't know how exactly his life turned out, but I'd like to believe he still helped many others when they were needed in that world.

"Yes, there were two CA in that reality, it's just like what Hulk said, what happened in the past has already happened. If you go back to past, you simply created a new reality. The characters in this movie created new timeline when they went back to the past, but it had no effect to the prime universe. What happened in the past 22 movies was still canon."

posted by cendawanita at 10:37 AM on May 2


It's originally from a Chinese interview, but those are the quotes. Though I suppose probably worth retaining a grain of salt about the source -- I don't know how reliable that publication is.
posted by tavella at 10:54 AM on May 2


I just saw Endgame for a second time because my daughter wanted to go again with a friend, and it was clear that Nebula knew or strongly suspected what the deal was with the soul stone. She told past Gamora that in the future Thanos would get the soul stone and she said something like, "Do you want to know how? Do you want to know what he does to you?"

So why didn't she warn everyone what the people who went to Vormir would have to face? Because she didn't care that much? Because she feared the team wouldn't willingly send someone to sacrifice their life? I don't find either of those answers satisfying. There probably is no answer other than "The writers felt Clint and Natasha and the viewer all had to find out at the same time that a sacrifice was needed."
posted by Redstart at 4:58 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


I liked this one. I did tear up a bit at Iron Man's death, and noticeably others around me did too, with quiet sobs.

I just read through all 400+ comments and looks like everyone covered what I wanted to say, but I'll chime in to +1 these ideas:
- The time traveling create alternate timelines/dimensions so there's no paradoxes
- So Nebula shooting herself didn't unmake her since that was one from a different timeline
- The Whelk already wrote a great story of another Steve fixing the 20th century and preventing Thanos in his time
- I was sad that Black Widow had to die, but for the plot it made sense and is true to her character
- All the heroines banding together was amazing and I want that movie
- The movies leading up to this one have been hit or miss for me but this one tied everything together neatly and was done very well. Like a meandering season of current DC-comics shows tied together with a great finale or one of their crossover events
posted by numaner at 5:00 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


There's no second Steve, just one looping back to overlap his own timeline.

They state pretty unequivocally, in the movie and in interviews, that you cannot travel to your own past, so this is incorrect. I personally like my "The old Steve at the end is from an alternate universe" theory because it has a nice symmetry and is also in keeping with the fact that countless alternate universes would necessarily involve countless alternate teams of Avengers fighting countless alternate Thanoses. If the Russo brothers want to insist it's the same Steve who returned to his own universe after living a happy life in an alternate universe that's fine too, but I don't really see the point.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:03 PM on May 2


The logic of time travel is that you cannot change your own past. But it's not logically forbidden to simply travel to your own past. People want Steve to have gone to an alternate timeline because they think it would be character inconsistent for him to sit back while shit happened. But why would he want to travel to an alternate timeline and marry an alternate Peggy? As the film Solaris demonstrates, you wouldn't want to replace your beloved with a qualitatively identical alternative. It's creepy. When I love someone it's that particular concrete individual, with whom I have shared a particular concrete history, that I care about, not some doppelganger.

However, it looks like the only way to make sense of the film, and consistent with what the Russo Brothers are saying, is that you can never travel to your own past, period. That is, to get the stones, the Avengers have to travel to a different one where the stones still exist (technically it's not time travel at all- it's universe hopping). The Thanos in that universe wants to retrieve the stolen stones, so he travels to our universe to get them back, but gets destroyed. Afterwards Steve returns the infinity stones to that other universe so that it doesn't get invaded by dormammu. They've also done that universe a big favour by destroying the Thanos from it. If Steve is unwilling to live and let live in the universe he wants to marry Peggy in, he'll then have to go to yet another universe because the one they stole the infinity stones from matches up with ours until the battle of New York.

I have no idea how alternate universes are supposed to be generated in this scenario. Does merely travelling back in time generate them? How would you follow the path to them if travelling creates them? More likely they just all exist anyway, or get branched for every single quantum mechanical event. It's an excessively extravagant metaphysics- and we have no reason to think that quantum mechanics demands it- despite what David Deutsch might say.

And I'm pretty disappointed that we're not in the best possible universe.
posted by leibniz at 7:36 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


I posted on my tumblr that i noticed a higher-than-usual amount of southeast asian-looking faces in the extras for the final battle, and i remembered the audition call that was circulated within my circles during the shoot. the notice itself was for an unspecified seasian country, which i'll take it is a fakeout. but it does crack me up a little if my observation bears out, that 'southeast asians' is shorthand for 'asians of more diverse range of ethnicities' in casting language, at least for the studio.
posted by cendawanita at 7:50 PM on May 2


So why didn't she warn everyone what the people who went to Vormir would have to face? Because she didn't care that much?

I can totally see Nebula, even though she has learned and changed so much over the years, saying "As long as it's not someone I like [me, Tony, Rocket] going to Vormir, I don't care who goes."

The thing I kind of DON'T see is sending the two most normal, most Earth-bound, least super-powered Avengers to a mysterious distant planet to accomplish their mission. I mean, I guess it worked out for the 1 in 14 million chance, but maybe all y'all should have paged Carol to join them just in case?
posted by ejs at 7:57 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


Another point: how does the rule about not traveling to your own past fit with the entire Dr Strange film? Do we now have to think that Dr Strange traveled to an alternate universe when he 'reversed time', and the original one got eaten by Dormammu?
posted by leibniz at 8:01 PM on May 2


Well also, what if the two sent to the soul stone didn’t have particularly strong feelings besides “teammate” for each other?
posted by PussKillian at 8:08 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


Another point: how does the rule about not traveling to your own past fit with the entire Dr Strange film? Do we now have to think that Dr Strange traveled to an alternate universe when he 'reversed time', and the original one got eaten by Dormammu?
I believe the good doctor simply create a time-like loop to trap Dormammu. Dormammu exists outside of time, so there's no causality to break. Other examples could be seen as pushing time "through" things (the apple) much like time was pushed through poor Scott during the experiments

👶🍎
posted by device55 at 8:12 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


Poor Scott. Someone get him a 🌮
posted by device55 at 8:13 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


Another point: how does the rule about not traveling to your own past fit with the entire Dr Strange film?

Use of the Time Stone, either by Strange umpteen million times in his own movie, or by Thanos to reverse the destruction of the Mind Stone in Infinity War, is different than Ant-Man-style quantum time travel, I think. It's not really time travel by an individual at all, as much as "rolling back" everyone and everything to an earlier time. I think we can say that happens within a single universe and still be consistent, as long as you accept a handwave that it doesn't also roll back people's memories (or at least some people's memories aren't rolled back, at least the person using the Time Stone, and also Dormammu in Doctor Strange, so maybe also people nearby who are aware the Time Stone is being used).
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:23 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Dammit, I want to post an emoji Hulk and two tacos but have no idea how you do that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:15 PM on May 2


🤢🌮🌮
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:21 PM on May 2 [13 favorites]


Thank you!
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 PM on May 2


I'm guessing the whole "Steve goes back in time, dances with Peggy, and shows up in the present as an old man who has had a full and happy life" ending was something they came up with earlier before they actually wrote the Infinity/Endgame script and they really wanted to keep it even though it didn't really fit with how they ended up using and explaining time travel for the rest of the movie.

I really like the idea they ended up with, that the Avengers would travel back in time not to change the past, but to borrow something that was lost in order to create a better present and future.

So it's not really a Reset or a Do-Over. It's not a story of going back and erasing the deaths so they never happened. It's a story of resurrection.
posted by straight at 1:56 AM on May 3 [8 favorites]


If they're pushing alternate universes, I guess that gives us an idea of how they can bring the X-Men and Fantastic Four into the MCU. One universe for the X-Men, one for the FF, one for the Avengers, culminating in MCU Phase Eleventy and the Hickman New Avengers/Illuminati incursions story or maybe they all have to cross universes to join together and beat Galactacus.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a superhero boot stamping on human imagination - forever - but so loud, so fun! 😏
posted by kokaku at 4:12 AM on May 3 [4 favorites]


I don't want to be a grump, but this movie was..meh? If you are deeply into the MCU, I get that it would be nice to see all your friends getting cameos again. But to someone like me who has seen only a handful of marvel movies, it was like watching an acting audition: fifty little scenes of one actor staring into the watering eyes of another new actor, mouthing lines over stakes that felt read-in from the wings.

The movie has nothing to offer anyone who isn't a die hard fan, and I think even the fans are only happy that their huge investment in this universe didn't end worse.
posted by Popular Ethics at 5:41 AM on May 3 [6 favorites]


That's true of the conclusion to any long-running series, though, isn't it? I lost interest in the first Harry Potter about thirty-five minutes in, so I wouldn't think I have much of use to say about Deathly Hallows Part Two.
posted by Grangousier at 6:24 AM on May 3 [6 favorites]


The movie has nothing to offer anyone who isn't a die hard fan...

In my experience, there are plenty of female viewers who aren't die hard fans who enjoy watching Tony Stark and Cap. YMMV.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 AM on May 3 [3 favorites]


I don't see how you could really play along with the film if you haven't seen almost every one of the films and stayed for the post-credits clips. The first five minutes of Endgame skip any exposition and dive right in assuming you've seen Captain Marvel as well as Ant-Man & the Wasp and stayed through the end credits scenes on both.

I was a bit disappointed they didn't touch on the fact that Tony was literally reliving the events in New York that caused his PTSD.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:50 AM on May 3 [6 favorites]


The movie has nothing to offer anyone who isn't a die hard fan,

I beg to differ. I'm a fairly casual MCU fan. By my count, up to and including Endgame, I've seen eight MCU movies in the theater, one more all the way through outside the theater, and fragments of three others, and I enjoyed Endgame very much. A lot of the background/character development I haven't directly seen, I feel like I've picked up either through cultural osmosis or having just seen trailers. E.g., I haven't seen either Ant-Man, but I feel I got all the background I needed on him from the trailers for those movies alone. In IW I got the basic idea that Tony Stark has become a father figure to Peter Parker, and I don't need to see the entire development of that in Homecoming for it to work. There are a few characters I think I would have benefited from knowing more of their background (Sam, Rhodey, Scarlet Witch; and, in IW, Vision), but overall I was invested enough in these characters to enjoy the movie on that level.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:06 AM on May 3 [4 favorites]


St Abbs, Scotland I think.

There was an extra sign outside the village with a Scandinavian language, if I remember right, but the vehicle had a UK license plate.
posted by daveje at 7:09 AM on May 3


assuming you've seen Captain Marvel as well as Ant-Man & the Wasp and stayed through the end credits scenes on both.

OK, I did see Captain Marvel. Didn't see AM&tW. I gathered from Endgame that Ant-Man's been out of the picture, stuck somewhere since before the events of Infinity War. I don't need to know how or why for the movie to work.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:20 AM on May 3


The first five minutes of Endgame skip any exposition and dive right in assuming you've seen Captain Marvel as well as Ant-Man & the Wasp and stayed through the end credits scenes on both.

Hell, I've seen both and the movie still skipped how Captain Marvel found Tony and Nebula.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:28 AM on May 3 [3 favorites]


I really thought they were setting Nebula's arc up so there's a moment of Nebula(2019) (or perhaps a woke version of Nebula(2014)) would somehow fuck up Thanos and play back the "the arrogant never expect it" line that he had.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:32 AM on May 3 [1 favorite]


The movie has nothing to offer anyone who isn't a die hard fan,

I don't understand the need to universalize experiences like this. Wasn't your jam, that's chill. Feel free to make thoughtful points to illustrate your perspective, that would have been great. This post, though, just seems to function to yuck people's yum. Kinda nets negative for all persons involved.
posted by avalonian at 7:47 AM on May 3 [20 favorites]


The first five minutes of Endgame skip any exposition and dive right in assuming you've seen Captain Marvel as well as Ant-Man & the Wasp and stayed through the end credits scenes on both.

Didn't see CM, saw AM&tW, felt like I'd seen enough to get what was going on (plus, AM&tW's tie-in to the Snapture was well-publicized in the leadup).
posted by Etrigan at 7:50 AM on May 3


We Spoke to a Quantum Physicist About the Time Travel in ‘Endgame’ (Ben Lindbergh, The Ringer)
Scott Aaronson knows how quantum physics works about as well as anyone. Aaronson, a former MIT faculty member, is a professor of computer science at the University of Texas at Austin, and the founding director of UT Austin’s Quantum Information Center. He specializes in quantum computing and computational complexity theory, conducts quantum physics research, and recently drew attention to a debunking of an exaggerated report about scientists “reversing time” with a quantum computer. For our purposes, he’s a real-life Stark without the vast fortune and fancy suit.

[…]

“So Back to the Future’s a bunch of bullshit?” a disillusioned Lang asks.

This is an inspired piece of screenwriting sleight of hand. We know those other movies are bullshit, Marvel seems to be saying. This movie is different from those movies, so this movie must not be bullshit. But another possibility exists: They can both be bullshit. After viewing Endgame’s time-travel scenes, Aaronson concludes that’s the case, saying, “As I predicted/feared, ‘the quantum realm’ is invoked here basically just as a magical amulet to enable time travel.”
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:32 AM on May 3 [3 favorites]


DevilsAdvocate: Use of the Time Stone, either by Strange umpteen million times in his own movie, or by Thanos to reverse the destruction of the Mind Stone in Infinity War, is different than Ant-Man-style quantum time travel, I think. It's not really time travel by an individual at all, as much as "rolling back" everyone and everything to an earlier time. I think we can say that happens within a single universe and still be consistent, as long as you accept a handwave that it doesn't also roll back people's memories (or at least some people's memories aren't rolled back, at least the person using the Time Stone, and also Dormammu in Doctor Strange, so maybe also people nearby who are aware the Time Stone is being used).

Actually I think it's the inverse? As in, it has a limited sphere of influence. The very first time the Eye of Agimoto's effect is seen, it causes an apple to be un-eaten (or to ripen and rot, I don't remember which). Dr Strange used that power to bother Dormammu not because Dormammu's memory was specially exempt, but because the spell that Strange cast only extended to a little outside Strange's body, and worked even after Strange was killed repeatedly. In a sense, when Banner and Lang did their very first quantum trial, they inadvertently replicated the Stone's main effect (turning Lang into a baby and an old man).

I think this sort-of answers my earlier question, "Why not just retrieve the Time Stone and use it by itself?" -- there is no actual sense in which you can use it to return to an earlier moment of history, unless you cast it on a wide enough area like the city of New York, and that might be too difficult.

But, on the other hand... this might magnify the question, because they acquired the Infinity Gauntlet from Thanos himself right at the start of the movie. If they had a volunteer sorcerer, than perhaps they could give them the Time Stone and have them cast the spell on the Gauntlet. Bam -- the Gauntlet returns to its earlier state with the Stones, Hulk puts it on, and the movie is less than an hour long with fewer deaths. Possible risks: In the process, the Gauntlet might reverse its snapping motion. Would that undo the Snap on its own? Or would it instead repeat it? That would be the "Dormammu, I've come to bargain" problem: The Gauntlet rewinds to pre-Snap state, the sorcerer loses focus or whatever, and the Gauntlet moves forward again, repeating the Snap, removing half of all life again, leaving it at a quarter (or less) its original population, very possibly losing your volunteer wizard as well.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:12 AM on May 3 [4 favorites]


I'm just going to say what I've been saying in the last week: I'm cutting them some slack because they're obviously operating with one brain cell between themselves.
posted by cendawanita at 9:19 AM on May 3


Ah, the She-Ra Conundrum.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:00 AM on May 3


SO MANY STAIRS!
posted by snofoam at 11:47 AM on May 3 [8 favorites]




Mackie's beard game was on point for that scene.
posted by cmfletcher at 2:05 PM on May 3


If they're pushing alternate universes, I guess that gives us an idea of how they can bring the X-Men and Fantastic Four into the MCU.

I did not spot this myself, but TVTropes* mentions of the scene where Scott is searching for his daughter's name on the memorial:
Another name on one of the pillars is "Roberto Da Costa", better known as Sunspot of the New Mutants and U.S.Avengers, thus making Sunspot the first member of the X-Men to get name-dropped in the MCU.
*Warning: TVTropes. Be prepared for 3-5 hours of your life evaporating.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:04 PM on May 3 [5 favorites]


But to someone like me who has seen only a handful of marvel movies,

Movie wasn't made for you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some non-die-hard fans don't need all of the background details to enjoy Endgame; you're not one of those people. Movie wasn't made for you.
posted by tzikeh at 6:54 PM on May 3 [8 favorites]


Mrs. Biscuit is a moderate but not obsessive MCU fan and has seen most but not all of the movies in question. During Endgame, she laughed, she applauded and she cried at all the right moments and in the immediate aftermath declared it possibly the best movie she had seen in years.

In short: some non-die-hard fans* don't need all of the background details to enjoy Endgame.


*Although she is a major Die Hard fan.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:00 PM on May 3 [10 favorites]


To the person claiming that the film has nothing to offer those who aren't die-hard fans, you're not taking into account different motivations. I went to see it earlier this week because my friend is a fan and I thought it'd be fun to see such a hugely anticipated film with amped-up fans at the IMAX, and it really was. People go to see movies for all sorts of reasons. I like the occasional big cinematic experience.

This isn't my flavor of film (the usual Hollywood fare and the fightfightfightKILL! thing don't do it for me), but it was fun and well paced, and hey, Robert Downey Jr. It certainly didn't feel like three hours to me. And sure enough, being in the theater surrounded by people full-on sobbing, screaming/cheering, laughing, gasping in unison... was kind of a blast. And now I know they made a second Iron Man movie. I live under a rock.
posted by heyho at 8:23 PM on May 3 [3 favorites]


heyho: And now I know they made a second Iron Man movie. I live under a rock.

Ha, that's great! They actually made three, and for a while they kept treating that as the dependable sub-franchise, returning on a regular basis. By the summer of 2013, with the release of the third one, the MCU film series was 43% Iron Man by volume(s), not even counting The Avengers, in which he plays a very large part (and even provides the team's logo, being the A from "Stark" in "Stark Tower").
posted by InTheYear2017 at 8:44 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


I'd also put in the "just plain old movie actors" category Zoe Saldana

She did star in the world's highest grossing movie ever. Her films have total worldwide gross of over $10bn.
posted by biffa at 6:12 AM on May 4 [9 favorites]


Finally got to see this today. I managed to dodge all spoilers, except for a still of Gwyneth Paltrow reacting to a heads-up display.

I tried to be quiet during the movie, but some things did elicit knowing cackles or air-punching-while-yelling-yes

Molesome: "I truly hope that the girlpower team-up was included as a way of gauging audience response to a potential all-female team a la A-Force. I can't have been the only one who air punched at that moment. Anyway Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead got there first."
That was one of the five times I yelled, "Yes!" and punched the air.

Although, we are now 0 for 22 on seeing Bruce Banner's cousin the lawyer in the MCU. {Grumble.]

Also, no Lady Sif in the final battle. (I do not recall hearing definitively that she was dusted.) {Grumble.}

(And Fury, would it have killed you (again) to get Melinda May and Daisy Johnson in there?) {Grumble grumble.}

Molesome and liquorice - thanks for id'ing the one person at the funeral that I didn't recognize.

The movie felt pretty loose, in ways that Captain Marvel felt loose, and opposite of ways that Black Panther and Avengers 1 felt perfectly tight.

But then, for me, the character stuff did work for me - like, in the teleconference, where you can see the respect between Danvers and Rhodes as Danvers signs off.
posted by Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead at 1:36 PM on May 4 [3 favorites]


I like Pepper Potts, and I love her suited up as Rescue, but I keep having this problem where I look at Pepper Potts on the screen and think "god DAMN Gwyneth Paltrow and her GOOP bs"

Annoying.

On a more movie-centered note, I love the bit with Mjolnir paying off the slight nudge Cap was able to give the hammer in Ultron.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:54 PM on May 4 [7 favorites]


I like all the parts I have seen Gwyneth in, so I have to block out what she's like IRL.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:22 PM on May 4 [12 favorites]


However, it looks like the only way to make sense of the film, and consistent with what the Russo Brothers are saying, is that you can never travel to your own past, period.

The way I read it is that you can totally travel to your own past, but the instant you change something, a new branch timeline / continuity comes into existence, which means it isn't going to be long before it's not precisely your past anymore.

It's a fine difference between "you can never travel to your own past" and "you can't influence anything in your own past without instantly falling into something that's no longer your past", but I think it matters a little bit.

The thing I kind of DON'T see is sending the two most normal, most Earth-bound, least super-powered Avengers to a mysterious distant planet to accomplish their mission.

This actually makes some sense to me -- if Nebula has pieced together the main challenge of Vormir is for those present to figure out who is going to die to get the stone, then... you might either choose the two closest Avengers or you might choose the two least powerful Avengers. And Nebula has had enough time to figure that out.

Hubs is confused as to why Stormbreaker was seemingly less powerful this time around

YES. In fact, the whole battle with Thor + Tony + Steve vs Thanos made little sense to me.

Stormbreaker-armed Thor damn near one-shotted full-gauntlet Thanos in Infinity War, and Thor certainly thinks he could have finished the job if he'd aimed for the head instead of revenge. There's no in-narrative reason present that Thor couldn't have at least gravely injured un-gauntleted Thanos as quickly as before unless we're to believe with no setup that Thanos' handheld blade is not only stronger than gauntlet but also Stormbreaker.

Or, OK, let's say that maybe there's behind-the-scenes reason why Tubby Thor isn't quite at full strength -- maybe he needs to believe in himself and his mom's pep talk wasn't enough, or maybe he needs to have been regularly engaging in some sort of Asgardian power workout, even though we're given absolutely no indication anywhere in the entire history of the films that this is the case.

Tony alone held up against a stone-powered Thanos for a minute of combat and made him bleed.

And we saw Cap do the same with Mjollnir.

Even if Tubby Thor is only half capacity, facing an gauntletless Thanos alone really should have turned out differently. All three of them together should have done better than that.

I still really enjoyed the film, and I'm nitpicking at a pretense that was one gateway to a more spectacular climax, and I get that Thanos is a badass and there's a bunch of comics lore that would lead back towards this expected outcome, but I can't really see my way to any other conclusion other than that battle betrayed previously MCU-established expectations.
posted by wildblueyonder at 2:33 PM on May 4 [5 favorites]


I think unpredictable outcomes from battles is to be expected. There are a ton of variables for why a fight goes one way and not another, and how powerful each of the participants might be is only one of those variables. I mean that's how it's possible that in the comics, Spider-Man has gone up against the Hulk and not ended up as a smear on the floor. Thanos in the Endgame climax battle seems to really be on his game. He's confident, relaxed, and really freaking powerful. Maybe part of his strength is that he's never had possession of an infinity stone up to that point, and so he isn't relying on their strength to save him. When Thor attacked him at the end of Infinity War, Thanos had just come from a huge fight with Iron-Man and Dr. Strange and the gang, and he was probably still bummed about Gamora. So Thor catches him off guard. In Endgame, he's just sitting there waiting for them to attack him, itching to fuck them up, so he maybe has a bit of an advantage.
posted by wabbittwax at 3:18 PM on May 4 [4 favorites]


I keep having this problem where I look at Pepper Potts on the screen and think "god DAMN Gwyneth Paltrow and her GOOP bs"

I was tearing up during the Tony memorial scene, and then my brain went “jade vagina egg,” so I get it.
posted by bibliowench at 5:07 PM on May 4 [20 favorites]


So Rocket suspected the whereabouts of Thanos for over 2 (?) days upon getting the info about the energy signature and mentioned it only when Nebula returns?
posted by asra at 6:59 PM on May 4 [2 favorites]


and I think even the fans are only happy that their huge investment in this universe didn't end worse.

I'm a hardcore marvel fan. I rewatched all the movies before endgame. I laughed and cried and gasped and cheered during endgame. Twice so far. While I was certainly glad they didn't fuck this up, I loved this movie. Loved it.

Sorry it wasn't your bag, but maybe don't speak for everybody else in the world?
posted by greermahoney at 7:27 PM on May 4 [10 favorites]


Apropos of nothing, isolved when Steve said, "Avengers, assemble."

(But realistically, he needed a mic. Could any of the heroes in the back even hear him?)
posted by greermahoney at 7:29 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead: Also, no Lady Sif in the final battle. (I do not recall hearing definitively that she was dusted.) {Grumble.}

The director said she was dusted, so yeah, she should have returned for the battle. But the character seems to have fallen out of the series regardless -- she wasn't in the third Thor either (except as portrayed in the play-within-the-film that "Odin" directs "in memory" of Loki.).
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:35 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


Hrmm...so, do any of the stones exist anymore? I assume they might since they killed Thanos before he has a chance to destroy them. So, does Strange have the time stone once again? Or are they all destroyed in the present because they only restored the dusted folks and changed nothing else, which would also mean that no more time stone in the present with Strange? This would be bad based on what the ancient one said, right?
posted by asra at 8:00 PM on May 4 [4 favorites]


Ugh. I *sobbed* not solved when Steve said that. I hate my tablet sometimes.
posted by greermahoney at 8:18 PM on May 4


Well, subject to change but apparently the current thinking is the stones have been reduced to their atoms but not actually disappeared from this reality. In any case, if they take up the info dropped by the Ancient One then moving forward this 'verse is going to act really screwy in the stones' absence. Supposedly that means the lead Avengers will have Dr Strange for sure which leaves me in meh feelings (mostly because of the problematic worldbuilding).
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 PM on May 4 [2 favorites]


Whew, finally!

Count me as someone who hated the fat jokes and thought they were totally unnecessary to the character- we could have gotten the same effect by seeing rotting pizza boxes or something, without it being “tee-hee he is wearing a fat suit, fat people are so funny!” Also as someone with PTSD, that is not how it works and I don’t understand how they can do Punisher and Jessica Jones fine with PTSD in the same Marvel Cinematic Universe, but fuck it up so bad with Thor.

Also since no one has mentioned it - I sobbed like a baby when Cap, with his broken shield, struggled to stand, because by God the world needed him and he had to.
posted by corb at 2:55 AM on May 5 [7 favorites]


Finally saw it last night after managing to avoid any spoilers for a very long week. I was really impressed at how well they managed to wrap things up after almost two dozen movies with a movie that was pretty terrific on its own. Even without spoilers I figured that Tony would die, both for story reasons and the fact that I knew that Downey was ready to get out.

I'm a little perplexed at how much better this was than Infinity War given that they were filmed back-to-back by the same crew. The cinematography, editing and SFX all seemed so much better than Infinity War which seemed almost unfinished in spots. Maybe they had more time in post-production for this one? The pacing was great; it's a three hour movie that never seems over-long or bloated.

I don't know, I'm built just like Chonky Thor and the jokes didn't bother me. I loved that when we saw him everyone in the audience of course thought "Lebowski!" and then Tony said it out loud. It was a neat meta-reference to Iron Man 1 too.
posted by octothorpe at 6:23 AM on May 5 [2 favorites]


The movie has nothing to offer anyone who isn't a die hard fan, and I think even the fans are only happy that their huge investment in this universe didn't end worse.

That's such a weird thing to say about a movie that made a billion dollars in a week. There are obviously a whole heck of a lot of die hard fans out there.
posted by octothorpe at 6:28 AM on May 5 [14 favorites]


Thinking about it more, I love that I was surprised by the plot. I thought that they'd find a way to reverse the snap and then all join up to go after Thanos but then they went and chopped his head off in the first twenty minutes and then did the five years forward jump. I'm always happy when I'm thrown off early on in a movie like that. Most superhero films follow such predictable plot points that it's so refreshing to have one go in a different direction.
posted by octothorpe at 9:47 AM on May 5 [8 favorites]


'Avengers: Endgame' Explained By a First-Time Marvel Viewer (Chris Brower, Hollywood Reporter)
A writer who has never seen an MCU movie tries to make sense of 11 years and 22 films of storytelling.
It's ... enlightening.
posted by ZeusHumms at 3:40 PM on May 5 [8 favorites]


ITs now gone over the £2bn mark, having taken more than Titanic for second highest global gross at time of writing, and needing about £600m to go ahead of Avatar.
posted by biffa at 5:32 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


Zoe Saldana stays winning.
posted by cendawanita at 6:03 PM on May 5 [4 favorites]


The movie has nothing to offer anyone who isn't a die hard fan,

My in-laws went to see this film on the weekend having not seen Infinity War and called us afterwards to tell us how much they loved it and had so much fun in the theater. I asked them if they knew what was happening and they were basically like "Well, it was clear that something very wrong had happened in the last film" and weren't perturbed by it. Even I was impressed by that.
posted by liquorice at 6:24 PM on May 5 [10 favorites]


> A writer who has never seen an MCU movie tries to make sense of 11 years and 22 films of storytelling.

Not bad, not bad at all - for someone who went in cold with no idea about the details of twenty one previous movies, and not even having seen Infinity War, they got far more right than I expected them to!
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:19 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


And Karen Gillan has done a phenomenal job interpreting that character.

I enjoy the GOTG movies, but Rocket (and the first Groot) is the only one I felt emotionally attached to...until I watched this movie and realized how much Nebula snuck up on me. I thought Gillan was comically bad in the first movie -- it's not easy to act beneath a coat of blue face paint and prosthetic robot parts -- so I couldn't believe how good she was here. Just bleeding emotion, somehow!

The "she's got help" scene was absolutely too little, too late for me. In the theater, it occurred to me that a small, well-aimed explosion would've wiped out almost every living female character in the MCU. All...six of them?

Sober Valkyrie dealing with messy Thor, badass Valkyrie riding a winged steed, reluctant Valkyrie accepting leadership of New Asgard, Valkyrie ❤️🐎🗡️❤️
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:50 PM on May 5 [10 favorites]


Support group needed for STILL NOT RECOVERED FROM CLINT BARTON'S ARMS
posted by Gin and Broadband at 5:58 AM on May 6 [3 favorites]


Bitch, please, Spider-Man: Far From Home trailer.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:40 AM on May 6 [7 favorites]


> A writer who has never seen an MCU movie tries to make sense of 11 years and 22 films of storytelling.

"Apparently announcing 'Hail Hydra' means one is handed a briefcase."

LOL
posted by kyrademon at 8:38 AM on May 6 [5 favorites]


I saw this with my family on the weekend. My wife, who was the only one of us who didn't see the last movie had no idea what was going on or who half the characters were and fell asleep halfway through. My youngest son complained that the beginning was boring and the rest of the movie didn't make sense to him. My eldest son said it was too long and the plot was stupid.

I usually enjoy stupid super-hero movies and tv shows even though the plots are nonsensical. But when I got home from Endgame I watched a couple PVR'd episodes of Legends of Tomorrow and that was more fun and made more sense then this movie. It just kinda went on and on.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:42 AM on May 6


it's been a week since I've seen the movie and while I liked it overall I'm still bothered that the franchise threw two women off the same cliff. Like, I understand the reasons and plots and all that, but good writers can create stories where women aren't stuff in fridges and thrown off cliffs for the sake of male characters, even more so that both of them were the first and (for a while) only women of their respective teams.
posted by numaner at 10:18 AM on May 6 [15 favorites]


In-goddamn-deed. A big reason I was hoping for Hawkeye to go over, or for him and Nat to find a third option (at least try tossing Red Skull over! If it doesn't give you the Soul Stone, hey, you still killed Red Skull!) is that the way it played out Vormir exists only to sacrifice female characters in a way that drives male angst. Both deaths are frustrating on their own, but they'd be way less gross in a vacuum than as part of a repeated plot device that trades a female supporting character for a plot token, every time.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:34 AM on May 6 [19 favorites]


The Nat/Hawkeye 'sacrifice' rubbed me the wrong way as well. I'd have to rewatch either this or Infinity War, but as I recall, the wording the Red Skull gave was something like, "To take the soul stone, you must sacrifice something you love."

I'm pretty sure it wasn't, "To take the soul stone, you need to be nearby while something you love sacrifices itself, while you try desperately to prevent it."


I saw it again this weekend, so was looking out for this. Red Skull actually says you must "lose" something you love. I haven't gone back to check the dialog in Infinity War for comparison.
posted by mikepop at 10:34 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Infinity War transcript

relevant:
Red Skull: To ensure that whoever possesses it... Understands its power... The stone demands a sacrifice.

Thanos: Of what?

Red Skull: In order to take the stone you must lose that which you love. A soul...For a soul.
posted by numaner at 10:56 AM on May 6


1970s Stan Lee was the best cameo.
posted by cazoo at 2:45 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


I thought this article from @yrfatfriend really articulated the different feelings I had about Fat Thor, Can Fat Thor Advance Fat Acceptance?
posted by liquorice at 5:47 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


I'm reading something similar but from a self-described fat guy on /film: ‘Avengers: Endgame’ Isn’t Fat-Shaming the Traumatized and Grief-Stricken Thor, and i'm detecting there's definitely a gendered dimension to reception of this character beat (adjusting for fannish loyalty).

personally my read has been that the characters' reactions are clearly assholish from established assholes and smartasses of the group (Rocket & Rhodey), while since Frigga has her insight not only she saw this Thor wasn't 'her' Thor but also he hasn't been doing very well in taking care of himself (and yes, a typical 'mom joke'), but the movie itself didn't judge Thor's size, and I deeply appreciate that he never slimmed down for the fight. That said, the gendered aspect I'm detecting falls on how much you're socialised to think yourself as the hero of a story or someone in need of improvement constantly. So it makes sense it's women commentators who are extremely bothered by the comments (which reflect their life experience and from there the connotations of social expectations), while the men are like, "yes! guys like me can be heroic too! (like other guys!). All that trash talking (typical dude bonding), and see who's holding the hammer still, ha!"
posted by cendawanita at 12:58 AM on May 7 [14 favorites]


I've joked before about how much it meant to me that Into the Spider-Verse not only increased minority representation through the inclusion of Afro-Latino Spidey and Female Spidey, but also for my own pudgy middle-aged white guy demo with Sad Sweatpants Spidey. And as such, I was initially inclined to take Fat Thor very much in stride as a more relatable version of a previously-untouchable hero.

But like cendawanita, I noticed that for the most part female viewers and critics weren't on board for the depiction, and on further reflection there is definitely a double standard here. Some of us can laugh at Fat Thor, but what if they'd tried doing a Fat Black Widow subplot? The answer is that they'd never even try it, because women are only allowed to look a certain way on film unless it's for pure comedy/pathos purposes. Fat Thor can let himself go to seed and still be counted as a badass fighter, because we've been making room for paunchy men as action heroes since before William Shatner put on his first girdle. There is no such leeway for women in our culture, and maybe that's the next thing we need to push for progress on.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:28 AM on May 7 [14 favorites]


I, a woman, was one of the first in this thread to feel represented by that character change and post about it here. And there are more women finding similar representation in seeing a strong character manifest visible physical signs of trauma response or PTSD (to corb, who posted above that “PTSD doesn’t work that way”, I respectfully disagree. Yours didn’t. Mine did. I expect like everything, it is different for everyone).

https://twitter.com/twoscooters/status/1125328470068932609

Some of the jokes were nasty and fat shaming, but after two viewings I feel more firmly that by not having Thor slim down for his last big fight as an Avenger, by having Mjolnir confirm to him that he was still worthy, when he needed that confirmation most - that this portrayal is a lot more carefully nuanced than some of the initial reactions give it credit for. I definitely feel more represented by Thor’s arc than by any other character’s (though part of that is simply because Marvels woeful mishandling of its female heroes make it hard for me to find real representation there because I do not exist to be sacrificed).
posted by annathea at 8:29 AM on May 7 [8 favorites]


The only counterexample I can think of is the pro wrestler Nia Jax (who is monstrously strong but is also built like an NFL offensive lineman rather than a bodybuilder), and her depiction in WWE is as far from unproblematic as you'd expect from that establishment, so I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

For my money I thought the plot of the movie treated Thor very well, but the script much less so, both in terms of the jokes at his expense and the way every time his torso was on-camera it was treated as a visual gag.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:33 AM on May 7 [2 favorites]


It took me reading and listening to my friends' comments to realise that people tended to see the camera on his torso as a gag on his fatness but I always took it as a gag on the long-running MCU habit of having Thor shirtless at least once in the movies he's in (except A1, I think...). Which underscored his depression issues.
posted by cendawanita at 8:39 AM on May 7 [2 favorites]


Fascinating twitter thread highlighting all RDJ's improvisations throughout his MCU appearances:

Twitter;
ThreadReaderApp (collected tweets)
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:49 AM on May 7 [11 favorites]


From that thread: He said multiple times he's re-written his parts of scripts when they make no sense, have no continuity, don't know his character etc. He supervised his character in CW and improvised as much as he did in IW (he had less influence for AOU)

Ha! I can tell! *grudge against AOU continues*
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 AM on May 7 [8 favorites]


Tony in AOU: "Please be a secret door, please be a secret door. Yay!" Tell me that not RDJ's improvisation.
posted by SPrintF at 9:47 AM on May 7 [7 favorites]


as the thread confirms, yes indeed that's an improvised line.
posted by cendawanita at 9:58 AM on May 7 [3 favorites]


Marvel could and should absolutely have an extra-large Asgardian woman who wears plate mail and a big horned helmet and kicks ass and looks great.
posted by straight at 2:55 PM on May 7 [5 favorites]


Anthony Oliveira: now that the #Endgame spoiler embargo is at an end can we talk about how Tony Stark concludes his father was basically a good man during a conversation that begins when he interrupts him while Howard is casually looking for his friend, Nazi scientist Arnim Zola
No one has a good dad in epics; otherwise we wouldn't have epics.
People mad at me for impugning the memory of Howard Stark -???- might remember COLLABORATING WITH DEFECTING NAZI SCIENTISTS is why Cap exists, and all six Avengers have mass murderers and/or abusers for fathers.

“Your origins are good actually” does not index personal virtue.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:42 PM on May 7 [6 favorites]


I did enjoy the new spoilers-for-Endgame trailer for the next Spider-Man movie. I dunno how they will handle Snap-returnees, but it's nice to see that Tony is missed.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:11 PM on May 7


so you might have heard of the oscar campaign for RDJ, and this is probably part of this but disney/marvel even sprung for a panel luncheon or something with AMPAS, and they had a video up of part of it, but this is more about the movie itself with the writers, Kevin Feige and Joe Russo (which means they're probably aiming for a repeat of the BP nomination)

and this week my yt algorithms been alerting me of new interviews with the Russos, now that they have ended the spoiler ban because Sony wanted to release FFH soon, and also a bit of another victory lap now that they've gone past USD2 bil mark (these are all about half an hour each):
- SiriusXM interview (i like this one, a lot of interesting BTS stuff)
- Peter Travers interview (PT is still so-so with me but they're still interesting)
- GQ: The Russos break down the biggest Marvel moments
posted by cendawanita at 5:14 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]


I did enjoy the new spoilers-for-Endgame trailer for the next Spider-Man movie.

Anybody who hasn't seen the new Spider-Man Far From Home trailer, I'd recommend avoiding it if you can. It gives away a whole lot that was really surprising and that I wish I'd saved for seeing in the movie itself.
posted by straight at 11:04 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]


So JG is MCU now! I was just making a mental list of what major actors they haven’t dragged in yet. Russell Crowe....who else?
posted by bq at 5:19 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


Fantastic hijabi cosplayer Maliha Fairooz wrote a thread on Ho Yinsen from Iron Man for Ramadan.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:08 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]


Harrison Ford... as... Galactacus
posted by kokaku at 7:24 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]


Bring back Doug Jones as the Silver Surfer, But with his own voice this time
posted by ejs at 8:54 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]


Wondering why a woman couldn't play Galactus, or if Galactus could be gender neutral somehow.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:12 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


Sigourney Weaver... as... Galactacus
posted by kokaku at 1:12 AM on May 9 [1 favorite]


No, I am Galactacus!
posted by Grangousier at 2:41 AM on May 9 [5 favorites]


So the Russos said in an interview that Cap definitely could have lifted Mjolnir in AoU but declined to spare Thor’s feelings. Even though this is now the Word of God, I think it’s not at all backed up by the actual movie itself, and is just kind of weird. I have a much better explanation, if I do say so myself:

You have to be worthy to pick up the hammer. Worthy by whose standards? Odin’s. Odin who was trying to teach his son to be worthy of taking on the mantle of king of Asgard.

Who was Steve at the time of AoU? A footsoldier, following SHIELD’s orders. A leader in the battlefield, sure, but still a follower. Not king material. It wasn’t until he threw off SHIELD and the Sokovia Accords and became his own man that Odin would have found him worthy.

(After Thor left Earth at the end of AoU, Steve and Mjolnir were never even on the same planet again until they all came back from the Time Heist. So it wasn’t until the fight with Thanos that Steve had occasion to try to lift Mjolnir again.)
posted by ejs at 7:24 AM on May 9 [5 favorites]


that segues to a conversation my friends and i had, where they were like, by the time of Endgame, other Avengers must also be worthy (forex, Natasha, but also Tony). we fanwanked it so that Steve suspected he could because of that bit in AoU, so he took a gamble when Thanos came, but if the rest wanted to, they could but they never thought about it.
posted by cendawanita at 7:31 AM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Even though this is now the Word of God, I think it’s not at all backed up by the actual movie itself, and is just kind of weird.

It totally works for me because Captain America is still...Captain America. And one of the most important things he lead the Avengers to do in AoU is to save civilians. Yes, defeating Metal James Spader was important, but risking his life to save innocents was the top concern.

Cap is Cap. He don't change, so he was worthy from the start. The real question is whether pre-injection Steve Rogers, have wielded the hammer?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:33 AM on May 9 [5 favorites]


My thinking has always been that "worthy" by Asgardian standards requires a certain amount of thirst for battle -- even after being certified worthy, Thor is still the guy who goes to Muspelheim and starts a brawl with Surtur and his legions pretty much because it's a fun way to spend an afternoon. Cap could be that kind of warrior if he wanted to be, but he doesn't -- at his core, he just wants to beat the bullies and go back home for a dance with Peggy. So in AoU, he's pushing that side of himself back, and the hammer only shifts a tiny bit when he gets slightly too into the competition for a moment. In the middle of a fight for the fate of the universe against Thanos, with no reason to hold back, he embraces it.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:41 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]


Wondering why a woman couldn't play Galactus, or if Galactus could be gender neutral somehow.

Galactus is canonically older than our universe, so Galactus exists so far beyond any gender boundaries that I'm not comfortable assigning any pronouns to Galactus.
posted by Etrigan at 7:51 AM on May 9 [4 favorites]


I’ve always felt that while Odin had a hand in the making of Mjolnir, that it exists kind of outside him - and so Mjolnir isn’t “what would your dad approve of” but rather “are you a good god/man, are you Noble and True, do you defend the downtrodden and always do the right thing?” And that fits Cap. That has always fit Cap. Cap’s defining characteristic is that he never does the wrong thing - if Cap is doing it, it is meant to be right, because his sense of morality is his strongest power.

Thus, Thor lost the ability to lift Mjolnir when he stopped defending the people, and gained it again when he stepped up.

And thus also, Tony or Natasha could never have lifted Mjolnir. They are constantly prey to their weaknesses. They constantly do the wrong thing and struggle with trying to be better. But they are just not there yet.

Cap would not have made the Soul Stone sacrifice. Cap would not kill an innocent person even to save the world. He is the pinnacle of worthiness. It is right and just that he can lift the hammer.
posted by corb at 8:07 AM on May 9 [5 favorites]


Mjolnir has been around for ages, but in the MCU it only got the "if he be worthy" enchantment added to it when Odin got fed up with Thor's nonsense at the start of his first solo movie.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:11 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]


“are you a good god/man, are you Noble and True, do you defend the downtrodden and always do the right thing?”

I tend to favor this theory, and then I find myself wondering who from the DC pantheon would be worthy.

Wonder Woman, I think. She might be the only one, at least out of the A-listers.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:18 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Saw it for the second time, enjoyed it still, even tearing up again in the same spots. Also felt better about Natasha's remembrance, as the original Avengers do seem to be doing that out by the lake. It's not a formal as Tony's, but they definitely mourn and it feels right that it's much more casual, yet intimate "funeral".

I do wonder what made this 1 out of the 14 million realities the one where they win.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:48 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


The one factor we know for sure is that Tony needed to be spared by Thanos both in the battle on Titan and during the Snap, which apparently was so unlikely that Strange could only make it happen by bartering his life for the Time Stone. The other super-unlikely thing that occurs to me is the rat that brought Scott out of the quantum realm -- if Thanos kills that rat, no time travel.

In my mind Strange made sure that happened by picking the exact right moment to hand over the Time Stone and start Thanos toward Earth, like a video game speedrunner waiting an extra three seconds to jump over a block at the start of a level because that's how you make sure the RNG will give you the item you need half an hour later.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:10 PM on May 9 [6 favorites]


I wonder how many years of subjective time Dr. Strange has experienced.
posted by bq at 1:14 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


ha, that makes the Wasp, Jane and Hank being snapped all the more important, 'cause otherwise Scott comes back sooner and throws things off? Plus Hawkeye losing all of his family, which drives him over the edge probably matters.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:19 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


And that rat! Probably its grandparents have to not be snapped, so it can be alive and live its live in a way that'll let it be in the van.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:22 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Right, that's important too - if anybody's still around to pull Scott out of the quantum realm immediately, he never realizes that time can be arbitrary there.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:22 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Superman used Thor’s hammer in 2003
posted by bq at 1:36 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I do wonder what made this 1 out of the 14 million realities the one where they win.

The freak rat incident.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:38 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]


>> I do wonder what made this 1 out of the 14 million realities the one where they win.
> The freak rat incident.


Ha, I bet at least a small percentage of arbitrary rat interactions with the quantum realm teleport control would have brought Scott back - maybe not on that particular day, but on some day... (The rest, probably best not to contemplate what might have happened. But rats are curious little beasties that like to poke and prod at things...)

Doctor Strange holds up one finger to Tony Stark at the end of the battle, to remind him that they have just one chance, even at that point. And that involves Tony doing another Snap with an ad hoc nanobot-gauntlet, and – knowing what happened to the Hulk before him – sacrificing his life.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:46 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Doctor Strange holds up one finger to Tony Stark at the end of the battle, to remind him that they have just one chance, even at that point.

.....Huh. I got a completely different read on the 'holding up one finger' bit - earlier on, Tony asks Strange that "you know how you said that out of all the scenarios you saw, that there was only one in which we won? Well - is this the one where we win?" And Strange told him something like "If I told you whether it was or not, that would change the future so that it wasn't the one where we win" or something.

So when I saw Strange holding his finger up, I took that as him subtly answering Tony's "is this the scenario where we win" question after all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:15 PM on May 9 [11 favorites]


> when I saw Strange holding his finger up, I took that as him subtly answering Tony's "is this the scenario where we win" question after all.

Well, yes - only one scenario, only one chance - I think we agree on the message. But the only chance was a scenario in which Tony had to make the sacrifice.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:58 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


That recap written by novice-to-the-MCU Chris Brower and posted by ZeusHumms, in addition to some wonderful errors (like Spider-Man calls his own father, “Mr. Stark") filled in something I'd forgotten I was confused about!

Ant-Man tries to eat a large, overstuffed taco when the giant bird-looking spaceship from Iron Man’s earlier travels, arrives, blowing the taco away and continuing his string of bad luck. In a moment of friendship, the Incredible Hulk shares two of his tacos.

I hadn't noted that Scott lost a taco as a result of the ship arriving (as opposed to eating it), so when Bruce gave his tacos it seemed out of the blue to me, like "Uh, he didn't ask if he wanted any but okay?"
posted by InTheYear2017 at 3:32 PM on May 9


I could see Tony making that sacrifice multiple times, not just in one instance. But it was the timing of rat + return of Scott with the info they needed to know + Tony (plus Natasha, I guess, whatever else) that seem to be the key things, and the rat frankly seems like the one in a billion whatever freak incident that had to happen to kick off the rest of it. I stand by the rat theory :P

I thought it was very sweet for Bruce to replace the lost taco. I guess everyone sent out for Taco Bell and Hulk still had a few left.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:10 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]


Well, yes - only one scenario, only one chance - I think we agree on the message. But the only chance was a scenario in which Tony had to make the sacrifice.

Yes, but it sounds like you're seeing that finger as a command or a suggestion ("This could be the scenario where we win IF you do this thing"), and I'm seeing it as a sign of confirmation and encouragement ("I know you're trying to figure out whether your sacrifice is going to be worth it, and from what I've seen so far, yes it is"). Those are two different things.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


If you think about it, the gesture didn't have to have any meaning to Strange at all. He just made the gesture because he knew that making it was part of the one successful timeline.

I hate time travel. (see rule 3)
posted by Tabitha Someday at 7:08 PM on May 9 [12 favorites]


In reference to the speed runner/RNG comment above, I’m now stuck in a fan-wankery rabbit hole thinking about how Dr. Strange could have used his mastery of the Time Stone to tell it to ensure that Tony and the rat’s ancestors survive the Snap, and ensure Pym and the Van Dynes and the Bartons don’t. I hate fan theories so much and now I have become what I hate.
posted by ejs at 8:50 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


I hate time travel. (see rule 3)
posted by Tabitha Someday at 7:08 PM on May 9


That’s too bad because “Tabitha Someday” would be a great name for a YA series about a peripatetic time traveler
posted by ejs at 8:53 PM on May 9 [26 favorites]


Why did it have to be a rat that brought Ant-Man back? Why not whoever moved all that gear into storage, or that security guard?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:34 PM on May 9


Maybe because, even if played by Ken Jeong, a person would be careful not to touch any of the buttons (although such care would imply treating it as something to take to a tech specialist or university, but maybe those places were entirely too busy as it was).
posted by InTheYear2017 at 3:14 AM on May 10


Why did it have to be a rat that brought Ant-Man back? Why not whoever moved all that gear into storage, or that security guard?

The rat flipping the switch let Scott know it was five years to his five hours, ultimately, which gets him thinking about the time heist.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:54 AM on May 10 [3 favorites]


The best comment/joke I've seen floating about the finger gesture is that Tony Stark seriously misinterpreted Dr. Strange's signal to commence the "Ant-Man Up the Butt" plan.
posted by orbit-3 at 9:24 AM on May 10 [14 favorites]


Avengers: Endgame gets Spider-Man: Far From Home trailer as a post-credits scene (Julia Alexander, The Verge)
Avengers: Endgame didn’t have a post-credits scene when it was first released, but that’s about to change — screenings will now come with the second trailer for Spider-Man: Far From Home attached after the credits.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:20 PM on May 10


That's not a post-credits scene... that's a commercial.
posted by kokaku at 3:11 PM on May 10 [5 favorites]


I thought the finger was more “Dr Strange does mystic hand gestures because why not?” stuff.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:12 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]


He just wanted Tony to pull it.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:43 PM on May 10 [2 favorites]


I mean, the post-credits scenes were commercials....
posted by Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead at 6:22 PM on May 10 [2 favorites]


jenfullmoon: "I thought it was very sweet for Bruce to replace the lost taco."
Honestly, that was the most wtf moment for me. That moment made me think, "Is Bruce Banner really a stoner? A mailbag full of tacos?"
posted by Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead at 6:27 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


> That moment made me think, "Is Bruce Banner really a stoner? A mailbag full of tacos?"

Hey that's one way to get the Hulk to relax.

It's pretty much a homage to The State skit Taco Mail, where a mailman walks around with a bag of tacos handing them out instead of people's mail, exactly like Bruce is doing (it even opens with a two hard shell taco handoff - which if you want to show Hulk with delicate fine motor skills, why not make a joke out of it).

Viacom is particularly brutal about their 90s era sketch comedy IP so it's hard to find on the internet in most places.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:22 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


A YouTube video of the Taco Mail sketch was linked upthread by AlonzoMosleyFBI, so catch it while you can!
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:18 AM on May 11


I saw the film last night and enjoyed it, although I share the unease about Black Widow's death.

I will admit to groaning a little at the "she has help" part, as it's not like Danvers needed help just then, but it's good to see they're doing *something* about the gender imbalance.

There was an extra sign outside the village with a Scandinavian language, if I remember right, but the vehicle had a UK license plate.

Yes, New Asgard's sign also said Vilkommen til Tønsberg - welcome to Tønsberg in Norwegian.

That's a bit weird, because Tønsberg is a real place in Norway that's nothing like the little Scottish fishing village they used for a location. In the MCU though it's where Odin fought the frost giants and where the Tesseract was hidden until then first Captain America film.
posted by knapah at 12:21 PM on May 11 [3 favorites]


"I figured Stark had built in at least one back door or extra function, because of course he did."

I read the moment of Tony deciding to try to get the stones as him realizing that they could be pulled out like that. Moments before, Thanos pulled the power stone (the purple one) and held it in his other hand for punching reasons. Tony saw that and realized that while they couldn't get the gauntlet back he could get the stones. I felt like this was confirmed with Dr. Strange gave him a knowing look. (I did a fair bit of flailing at that moment.) That was the moment that Dr. Strange had seen as the victory and everything led up to Tony having that realization. So no pre-planned auto-eject. He didn't know it was possible until he saw Thanos do it. (Though now that I'm typing this out it feels weird that Tony made the danged thing but didn't know it could do that.)
posted by faethverity at 4:10 PM on May 12 [3 favorites]


Eh, I feel like after trying to wrest the gauntlet off of Thanos last time, and failing, Tony said “eff that. That’s a bug.” And when making his gauntlet, upgraded it. Like the expando-feature. I can’t see him just recreating the original without improving it. That’s not who he is.
posted by greermahoney at 4:30 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]


GenjiandProust: I thought the finger was more “Dr Strange does mystic hand gestures because why not?” stuff.

Nah - he was already making Mystic Hand Gestures, and then Tony looks over at him, clearly asking with his expression "I only see this one play -- is this the one?" Strange curled all of his fingers back in except his index finger to indicate, "Yes, now that I see that you understand what it is that you have to do, I can tell you that this is indeed the single time out of ~14 million in which we win. But only if you do the thing. I'm sorry."

On preview: What faethverity said.
posted by tzikeh at 5:44 PM on May 12 [5 favorites]


I finally saw it this weekend (after a complete goof up of pre-buying tickets Saturday night, it turned out that I actually bought tickets for Friday night - so we showed up and got admitted all the way to the theatre only to find our seats were occupied, and that's when the theatre staff figured out my goof and then comped us seats for a slightly later showing. That was really nice of them).

Anyways, not sure I have much to add at this point - the movie has been thoroughly dissected and analyzed and reviewed and critiqued. My favourite moments:

-the elevator scene was awesome all around
-the absolutely anti-climactic opening - they go and kill Thanos and nobody feels good
-Dadbod Thor - and the fact that there was no "training montage" of him getting himself back together; he stayed out of shape the whole way; and I love that Tony's nickname for him went from "Point Break" to "Lebowski"
-Steve trying to run a support group - carrying on the work of Sam
-Captain America going to town with hammer and shield.
and probably a whole bunch of other moments I can't think of right now (I think I need to go see it again - my oldest, who is somewhere on the autism spectrum, was very keyed up for this movie and he broke down sobbing at both the death of Black Widow and Iron Man, and I was really worried some others in the packed theatre were going to give him shit for his reactions - thankfully, nobody did, but it kept me a little bit out of the film now and then).


Stuff that didn't work as well for me:
-not enough Captain Marvel (though reading through some stuff, I guess her scenes for this were filmed well before Captain Marvel, so it sounds like both Brie and the writers didn't really have a handle on the character at all yet, so maybe that's a good thing).
-Black Widow's death was just disappointing; it should have been Clint - there would have been a deeper resonance of Clint sacrificing himself for the return of his family (which is an echo of Tony's later sacrifice).
-while the movie did an ok job of showing us the US in tatters post-Snapture, what was going on in Wakanda? (I guess I'm a big enough fan of post-apocalypse fiction that I could have watched an entire movie just about that five year gap and how the world did, without any kind of focus on the Avengers finding their way)
-the Stones were handled in a bit of weird way compared to previous films - it used to be picking up one, with a bare hand, was enough to potentially destroy people. In this movie, people grab them all the time and only seem to get some kind of effect when dealing with a gauntlet full of them.
-the timeline stuff really kinda breaks my head when I think about it too much.

Anyways, I would be absolutely there for Captain America 4: Timey-Wimey in which we follow his adventures to return the Stones and the hammer to their correct moments in time. Cap on Asgard! Morag! Vormir!

Strange curled all of his fingers back in except his index finger to indicate, "Yes, now that I see that you understand what it is that you have to do, I can tell you that this is indeed the single time out of ~14 million in which we win. But only if you do the thing. I'm sorry."

I keep going back to the line in Infinity War - "if it comes down to saving you, or the kid, or the Time Stone, I will not hesitate to sacrifice you" or something to that extent. That was the play: sacrifice Stark to protect the Time Stone (and ultimately all the Stones and everyone else).
posted by nubs at 8:29 AM on May 13 [4 favorites]


I just want to add that I saw some nice references to comic book storylines and the early movies. The ones I noticed:
Morgan Stark talking about cheeseburgers with Happy is a clear reference to the end of Iron Man 1.

Morgan Stark is the name of Tony’s cousin in the comics. He’s kind of a bad guy though.

Captain American saying Hail Hydra is a callback to that one weird storyline in the comics where he was a Hydra agent

Old Cap was a thing for a while in the comics

It’s always nice to see a talking Hulk, I was surprised they didn’t mention a bu bc of therapy with Doc Samson.
posted by bq at 8:49 AM on May 13


I tried as a thought experiment imagining what would happen if everyone were de-snaptured back to the time and place they left from, but keeping everything that changed in the five years since then.

It got very messy, very quickly.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:03 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]


Watched again this weekend, the time travel stuff is more clear and internally consistent than I thought: they're not jumping quantum realities, they're actually traveling back along their own timelines. There's one line from Hulk that clarifies: if you go back into the past and change nothing, all is good and you can return 'home' to the future (your present). However, if you go back in time to your past and change anything, that future (your 'present') will no longer happen exactly as before, and therefore there is no place for you to return to--your former present will never happen, so there is no clear return point in spacetime. Thus, the 'past' that you traveled to now becomes your present, because you're stuck there with no return point for the Pym particles to navigate to.

(And you can only navigate to somewhen that you've already been, which is what makes Thanos' trip to the future possible: Nebula came from 2024, and so (evil) Nebula could return there and provide the fixed point for past-Thanos to travel forward to. This is where cause-and-effect get real messed up, though, and the movie is--necessarily, I think--hand-wavey about how past Thanos jumping forward and being killed still allowed the Snapping to have happened five years prior by a Thanos who would now have been dead then. But something something spacetime, linear time is a perception created by meta-cognition, and there are actual reasons why time travel is impossible and reversing cause & effect is probably one of them, mumble mumble.)

So at the end of the movie, Steve Rogers travels back to our own, shared 1945(ish), finds Peggy Carter and gets that dance and they live happily ever after. Peggy still has her life out in the world and Steve lets the rest of the world play out as before, but that's enough of a change to the past for Steve to have no return point in 2024 that he can navigate to at all, so he gets back there the long way, living one minute of time for every minute of time that passes--which is fine by him, because all of those minutes are with Peggy in his life (and the world finally makes sense to him again, he lived out his life in the timespan in which he was born and grew up...now that I think about it, to Steve Rogers, he had this accident in 1945 that threw him into the future for about a decade, to do important and world/universe-saving work; once his work as a soldier was finished, he was able to return home from war and just live his life, like all soldiers crave...it's just that 'going home' for him meant going home to 1945).

Also, there is clearly more story waiting to be told with Bucky and Steve: when old Steve returns, Bucky sure does look like he knows what's up: he smiles casually and knowingly, he doesn't need to run over and talk to his friend, he knows that the shield is for Sam because he's the one who tells Sam to go on over when Sam looks at him. I expect we'll get a little bit more on that, probably in the set-up of the new Disney+ show.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:04 AM on May 13 [9 favorites]


The kind of weird thing going forward in the MCU is that Banner now has a reusable, accurate time machine. That seems ripe for abuse!

it used to be picking up one, with a bare hand, was enough to potentially destroy people. In this movie, people grab them all the time and only seem to get some kind of effect when dealing with a gauntlet full of them.

Truthfully they’ve been a little inconsistent all along. For one, the stones generally have carrying cases that allow people to handle them—the Tesseract, the Scepter, the Orb, the four-needled hypodermic Rocket used to extract the Reality Stone.

For two, it seems that the effect of holding one depends on the domain of the stone. Like of course the Power Stone will year you apart (though why didn’t it tear apart Ronan?). The Space Stone sends you across space, to Vormir (though it was still in its carrying case then). The Soul Stone is pretty chill, allowing humans like Clint to grasp it, while the Time Stone politely hovers just out of reach of your fingers, perhaps so as not to age them to dust. Meanwhile the Reality Stone takes up residence in your body and kills you slowly from within (I think, it’s been a while since I saw Dark World).
posted by ejs at 2:21 PM on May 13 [3 favorites]


The kind of weird thing going forward in the MCU is that Banner now has a reusable, accurate time machine. That seems ripe for abuse!

Only if they can find someone besides Tony who can plot a route to where you want to go rather than just aging you into a geriatric baby or whatever.

I think--hand-wavey about how past Thanos jumping forward and being killed still allowed the Snapping to have happened five years prior by a Thanos who would now have been dead then.

Nebula going back in time and showing Thanos his future changed it. The Thanos who comes to fight the Avengers is coming from what is, to them, a different timeline.
posted by straight at 3:04 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]


(Oh and also you need to get more Pym particles from Hank, so good luck with that.)
posted by straight at 3:20 PM on May 13


Only if they can find someone besides Tony who can plot a route to where you want to go rather than just aging you into a geriatric baby or whatever.

(Oh and also you need to get more Pym particles from Hank, so good luck with that.)


I’m totally with you here, except for the fact that Bruce was able to send Cap back in time to New Jersey/New York/Asgard/Morag/Voromir to return the Infinity Stones to their rightful times/places after Tony’s death shows that those are not insurmountable restrictions.
posted by ejs at 9:26 PM on May 13 [2 favorites]




I’m totally with you here, except for the fact that Bruce was able to send Cap back in time to New Jersey/New York/Asgard/Morag/Voromir to return the Infinity Stones to their rightful times/places after Tony’s death shows that those are not insurmountable restrictions.

No he was just traveling on the same route through time that Tony mapped out for them when they all went back. The fact that Steve got off at an unscheduled stop to dance with Peggy might mean that he was stuck and had no choice but to travel to the future at the same rate as everyone else.
posted by straight at 12:17 AM on May 14 [1 favorite]


Only if they can find someone besides Tony who can plot a route to where you want to go

Shuri is back now. But she might also have the wisdom not to abuse time travel.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:25 AM on May 14 [4 favorites]


Avengers: Endgame's Creators Keep Undoing the Good Will They Had by Explaining the Movie (Charles Pulliam-Moore, io9)
As interesting as this can be, one has to ask at what point we’re meant to accept the text of the film as it is and to stop wondering what might have been, had the filmmakers ended up making different decisions. In this case, it’s not just because Endgame is a mostly-fine movie on its own, but also because the more the writers and directors talk, the more they make some of their ideas sound less than ideal. So—how about we all give this a rest, and start looking forward to whatever’s happening next.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:36 AM on May 14 [2 favorites]


I've seen that article shared around and I'm honestly at loss at the attitude. I like listening and reading into the process. It doesn't mean I have to agree with all of the final decisions (that's what fandom is for), and it's actually illuminating to see why certain choices are made.

Plus, if there's an IP that's the least suited to word-of-god approach of taking in the production's notes, a comic book movie would be it. And I don't get the impression that these guys are relaying their thoughts that way, in that they're well aware that much like their comic counterparts, this is their moment, but we (and the next incoming creatives) are free to riff on it however much they like. (Natasha could totally come back but delayed for example, idk)

(Like the time travel. It IS apparent the writers wrote it like a single timeline, but it's also reasonable that seeing it as a multiverse is both more theoretically elegant and 'fun', the way the Russos treat it. At least this point in time, they're both feasible. Now let's see where's the next movie taking that, like FFH.)
posted by cendawanita at 9:56 AM on May 14 [7 favorites]


A lot of people like to be all "Death to the author! Don't tell me your intentions!" and get all offended when others do. I like hearing that stuff myself, though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:19 PM on May 14


I was a little surprised that Thor of all people is the emotional core of this series.

lots of Gamera/Nebula stuff which was unexpected.

Man Evans should just be the representative for the Concept Of Wearing Shirts..
posted by The Whelk at 4:33 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]


Finally got around to watching it. I admit I was surprised that the movie jumps in time almost immediately, and it's easily my favourite aspect of the movie. An Avengers that have had time to absorb the depths of their devastation turns out to be my favourite iteration of the Avengers. Black Widow trying to keep the Initiative running because she literally doesn't know what else to do, and trying to bring Hawkeye back into the fold because she needs everyone back on the team for her own emotional reasons is definitely my favourite Black Widow moment in a franchise that has traditionally undervalued her greatly.

So of course I also hate the way she goes out in the movie. First, it conflicts with what I thought was the logic of the Soul Stone acquisition: that it demands the sacrifice of a loved one. Both Hawkeye and Black Widow immediately jump to the conclusion that they must sacrifice themselves, which is resolutely not the same thing at all. The way Thanos's decision in Infinity War plays out is admittedly a tough act to follow, but it had the benefit of sound logic that this decision kind of doesn't. And while I suppose it kinda sorta makes sense for the characters to decide that Black Widow should be the one to die, it's also a testament to how terribly the MCU has treated Natasha that she never gets much of an arc (in the movie to an extent, but especially across the franchise) and dies mostly because the plot demanded it and I guess we like Hawkeye better. (Which, P.S., I absolutely don't, I don't care if he has a family, send Cliff over the edge.) That, plus the muted response to her death afterward and the clear indication that her death would not be a significant speed bump for anyone except to demarcate some kind of emotional waypoint, took me out of the movie quite a bit.

I think besides that, the only other aspect of the movie I didn't really enjoy was how certain scenes felt shoehorned in for no real reason. Ant-Man coming back as different ages felt like a scene from a different movie altogether, especially with Banner yukking it up. And as much as people liked the coda to Captain America's story, it felt very isolated from the rest of the film—like "oh got this one last thing to do aaaaaaaaaaaaand also I decided to dance with Peggy for 70 years later suckers!" To me it came off as "shit, we forgot to write Captain America out of this franchise, someone workshop this scene for a few minutes and we'll add it in post!" And yeah, I did kind of think the all-female Avengers scene during the Gauntlet Football section was a bit pander-y, but given the frequent positive mentions of that scene in this thread, I'm happy to lean towards "much-needed corrective scene and a fuck-you to alt-right misogynist assholes" rather than "cynical pandering to liberal audiences."

Oh, one more thing: I read an article a while back that suggested the Marvel movies are absolutely terrible for staging fights in bland environments, and in Endgame the final battle scene takes place in Generic Apocalyptic Wasteland #1287. Like, at least Wakanda was an interesting and known environment in Infinity War. The smoking crater where the Avengers HQ used to be could've been literally anywhere and it made me think of that period in the late 2000s when all video games were various shades of brown and grey to communicate how gritty and rough their settings were.

Things I very much appreciated: I knew the cavalry was going to arrive at some point but it was really cool when it finally happened and I'm glad I got to see it. Thor continues to surprise as a character; Chris Hemsworth could easily have been the dullest Avenger and somehow he and the MCU powers that be have figured out what really animates the character. Nebula had a pretty good arc here as well. And in a continuation of a trend I first saw in Winter Soldier and later Civil War, Endgame is very good at allowing its characters lots of downtime to just... talk things out. That Black Widow scene I mentioned earlier is a great example. The Hulk chatting with the Eternal One (is that Tilda Swinton's name? I forget, it's been a while since Doctor Strange) and to a lesser extent Stark running into his dad was a great way to change up the Mad-Cap Heist stone acquisition method.

All in all, it's not my favourite film, not even my favourite MCU film, but it did the job it needed to do and there are parts I genuinely enjoyed.
posted by chrominance at 9:29 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]


lots of Gamera/Nebula stuff which was unexpected.

That would be an unusual team-up I'd be interested in seeing.
posted by Grangousier at 3:09 AM on May 15 [10 favorites]


Eternal One (is that Tilda Swinton's name?

The Ancient One. Apparently there will be a bunch of Eternals along in a bit, and if we don't stick to clear nomenclature things could get even more confusing than they are already.
posted by Grangousier at 3:21 AM on May 15 [3 favorites]


Apologies if this has already been posted, but from Chris Hemsworth's Twitter. Not sure which I like better, Beardo Hemmo dancing, or Karen Gillen in full Nebula makeup and shades, clapping along.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:32 PM on May 15 [5 favorites]


FOr the entire movies spraying NO HOMO over it

Look, we know the real relations okay
posted by The Whelk at 11:29 PM on May 15 [2 favorites]


Hemsworth, Evans, and Downey's social media accounts are worth stalking for the season if you're into BTS stuff on the regular. The Russos too.
posted by cendawanita at 2:24 AM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Kevin Feige weighs in:

Feige dipped his toe into the conversation about when, exactly, Captain America became worthy of lifting Thor’s hammer. [...] “we think he was always worthy and was being polite in Age Of Ultron.”
posted by ejs at 10:58 AM on May 16 [5 favorites]




Joy is Avengers fans imagining the other 14 million Endgame endings Doctor Strange saw ... and making a meme out of it. (Ross Miller, Polygon)
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:51 AM on May 17 [5 favorites]


but it did seem that there was a huge emphasis on the heteronormative family and a huuuge NO HOMO sign stuck on Captain America.

Ugh, this still really bugs me so much. “I’m with you till the end of the line.” “Even when I had nothing, I had Bucky.” Saved each others’ lives how many times? And so on... End of Endgame: “So, Bucky. Even though I’ve already had closure with Peggy, and my relationship with her was rushed and seemed shallow compared to ours [platonic or otherwise], she is my soulmate and I’m ditching you. BYE!”

In the words of something I saw on Tumblr (Vine reference incoming), “Two bros chillin’ in a timeline, 70 years apart ‘cause they’re not gay.”
posted by trillian at 8:33 AM on May 18 [7 favorites]


It seems like the demi-god status of our various heroes is being dumbed down, perhaps on orders from Disney. Thor's power level is all over the place now. He should be almost on par with Captain Marvel, and it's a missed opportunity to develop an interesting rivalry. Our heroes did not grow at all, in either character or power, between IW and Endgame, and it's disappointing. If Clint is a cold-blooded killer now, he should have remained that way, and he ultimately faces no consequences. I'm also not a fan of Thanos "retiring". It doesn't fit his personality at all and is pretty boring. Thanos as a transcended immortal, now that would have been interesting. Too much screen time was given to meh heroes like War Machine; time better spent on someone like Captain Marvel. And I feel bad for the diehard Hulk fans. Two Avengers movies in a row where he doesn't smash anything. Maybe the Russo's didn't see Ragnarok?

I enjoyed this movie, but Infinity War is much better. The battle scenes felt pretty generic. Gamora's quick combo attack on Thanos in IW was indeed "magnificent" and beautifully executed, but Endgame doesn't produce anything even remotely as satisfying.
posted by Brocktoon at 9:54 PM on May 19


Yeah, if Thanos had trouble beating Tony one-on-one when he had 4 Infinity Stones, it's hard to understand how he was able to stand up to Tony, Thor, and Captain-Worthy-of-Mjolnir without any Infinity Stones.

I guess you could say that on Titan, Thanos was still figuring out how to use the stones, while in the final Endgame battle he was using the power and skill that he had been conquering planets with for who knows how long.
posted by straight at 5:43 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]


Mickey Mouse: Battle Armour!

(sorry, first thing to cross my mind at the finale. Would have been cool, yes?) #NewDisney
posted by Afghan Stan at 6:57 PM on May 22


Yes, ‘Avengers: Endgame’ Box Office Was Massive, But It Fell Short of Expectations (Tom Brueggemann, Indie Wire)
Welcome to the early-adopter audience, where a film can make $2.8 billion worldwide and, by week four, no longer hold the top spot.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:36 AM on May 23


Should have been a squirrel.

Confirmed. And now just as canonical as the fact that "SNIKT!" is the sound Wolverine says out loud whenever he pops his claws.
posted by straight at 1:12 PM on May 23 [4 favorites]


Re: box office news -- if it wasn't for my friends somehow being so invested in wanting it to beat Avatar (because of some James Cameron shit talk?), I wouldn't even have noticed the expectations, but I don't know why they had to be, to me the movie's cultural imprint alone is enough (I mean, it's a meme at this point, but seriously, who remembers anything about Avatar?). And I think it's still got legs in its theatrical run.
posted by cendawanita at 2:23 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]


I mean there are only so many movie-goers in the world. At this point every single person who might possible ever see Endgame has seen it at least once. It's not surprising that there's be a dropoff by now.
posted by octothorpe at 5:15 AM on May 24 [1 favorite]


As of Saturday I officially knew three people who had not seen Endgame yet and were going "No spoilers!" at the party. Two of them told me they were planning on seeing it on the upcoming Thursday, but I think the other guy probably still hasn't since he got sick. So some stragglers may still be out there.

But yeah, also I think there should be a dropoff.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:45 PM on May 24


We finally saw it; we hadn't been able to fit it into our schedules before yesterday. But our seven-year-old was threatening to ruin it with spoilers his little friends had told him at school, so we went at like 10AM and had the theater to ourselves except one old guy. I am surprised how emotionally resonant the movie was for me and I'm very grumpy about the lack of respect for Natasha's self-sacrifice as compared to Tony. Nice to know I'm not the only one who felt that way.
posted by daisystomper at 7:56 PM on May 24 [4 favorites]


May I nominate Pepper for a woman whose screen time could have been improved? If you did not know who "Pepper" is, you could be forgiven for thinking it might be either Steve or Rhodey, the ones who greeted him first on his return to Earth? Rhodey and Peter also got in the first death scenes though Pepper grants him permission to die. While there are nice scenes of Pepper and Tony together and nice scenes of Tony and Morgan, there are no scenes of Pepper, Tony and Morgan as a family.

OTOH, Pepper is clearly important to Tony. His diary to her in space, his life with her, their talk about should the time travel theory go further, etc. And though it's unclear what Stark Corp. was doing after the snap, I expect she headed that also.
posted by beaning at 6:27 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]


And since they believe they have time travel solved, there is no rush to do it, correct? So why not check out what the rest of the world wants or maybe seek ideas for the snap-wish? Just because Steve can't move on does not mean others hadn't. And might not want to the missing back to return to abusive situations, dying of still incurable illnesses, or other unhappy situations.
posted by beaning at 6:31 AM on May 27


And since they believe they have time travel solved, there is no rush to do it, correct? So why not check out what the rest of the world wants or maybe seek ideas for the snap-wish? Just because Steve can't move on does not mean others hadn't. And might not want to the missing back to return to abusive situations, dying of still incurable illnesses, or other unhappy situations.

You explain the problem with this idea in describing it; it's a snap-wish. It's hit Ctrl-Z on Thanos' snap, not umpteen billion specific wishes -- Susie comes back but without the cancer, Abdul comes back but knowing enough to pass his exam, get the Mets back but with a better bullpen, abusers who remained getting to decide what to do with their snapped-away victims, questions about public figures that are both beloved and reviled, maybe there is a snapped-away pesticide inventor that their family wants to bring back but a billion bees want them to stay gone, and that's just here on Earth.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 7:52 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]


And since they believe they have time travel solved, there is no rush to do it, correct?

The specifically do not believe that. They don't have any more Pym particles and no guarantee Tony could plot another successful route back in time and no ability to actually change anything for themselves and their world with time travel.

The beautiful thing about the time travel plot in this movie is it's not a do-over button. They don't go back to change the past but to recover something that was lost and bring it to the present so they can do something there in their own time.
posted by straight at 11:30 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]


They don't have any more Pym particles...

Can't they just make more?
posted by ODiV at 11:34 AM on May 27


Just saw it at our rural community-owned theater. 500+ comments to sort through. Jesus Christ people! I've got gardening to do. Do you have any idea what a Russian novel of a thread this is going to be to work through?!
posted by Ber at 12:29 PM on May 27 [4 favorites]


At one point there were only half as many comments, but then somebody snapped.
posted by nubs at 12:37 PM on May 27 [9 favorites]


Can't they just make more?

I think the explanation for why not was probably in the last Ant-Man movie and I don't remember it, but they can't. What seemed to be implicit in this movie was that for some reason only Hank Pym could make Pym particles, and he's dead. That's why they needed the extra hop to the 70s when they realized they needed more Pym Particles.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:23 PM on May 27


Only Hank can make Pym Particles because he refused to share the science with SHIELD. Janet and Hope (his wife and daughter) might be in on the secret, but they all got snapped. Scott obviously is also close to Hank, but he's not a physicist. His expertise ends with operating the suit.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:48 PM on May 27


You explain the problem with this idea in describing it; it's a snap-wish. It's hit Ctrl-Z on Thanos' snap,

I agree there's probably only one wish to be made and bringing everyone back to current time is easiest if there's no time to carefully craft it. However if it was just re-setting Thanos then everything would be back to 2014. But Tony doesn't want to lose what he's gained so he crafts it to bring everyone ashed current while leaving the current unchanged. Why not look at other craftings of the wish--because Nat and Rhodey are too busy watching us do practice runs to touch base with their contacts who might be able to more carefully craft a better wish. Or maybe it would have been a monkey's paw. In a way, it's good everyone came back to the previous time, far easier to explain to all those still battle ready that's still one more fight left.

And since they believe they have time travel solved, there is no rush to do it, correct?


The specifically do not believe that. They don't have any more Pym particles and no guarantee Tony could plot another successful route back in time and no ability to actually change anything for themselves and their world with time travel.


Then they really shouldn't be rushing into using them up. The ones they have are indefinitely stable if I recall properly.


The beautiful thing about the time travel plot in this movie is it's not a do-over button. They don't go back to change the past but to recover something that was lost and bring it to the present so they can do something there in their own time.

But getting more from 1970's Pym is a do-over for having failed in 2014 NYC. It's the last chance but it's still a do-over.

posted by beaning at 3:55 PM on May 27


Oh, no rush to do the unsnap, sorry. I think I got lost and thought the conversation was about subsequent time-travel, post unsnappening.
posted by ODiV at 3:57 PM on May 27


If I were making the decision I'd lean toward resurrecting everyone in the present day too, just because of the potential that we'd run into the branching timeline problem and create a new reality where Thanos failed, while the "main" universe is still decimated.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:07 PM on May 27


in one sense, they can assume they have all the time in the world... but on the other hand, just because they have all the stones now, doesn't mean some kind of nonsense won't come and kill them in the next 5 seconds, thereby dooming all the realities/timelines they took each stone from, the exact thing the Ancient One was worried about, so I always could square it to that urgency of having to restore the stones as soon as the present!Avengers could. Steve took the long way back once he completed his task and the risk becomes 'smaller' and not reality-ending.
posted by cendawanita at 4:21 PM on May 27 [2 favorites]


(i mean, narratively Thanos literally came just as soon as they managed to finish their own gauntlet. Would 2014!Nebula have waited until the Avengers global survey was done to bring forward Thanos? She's got time travel access too.)
posted by cendawanita at 4:24 PM on May 27


2014!Nebula died at the battle though, so no, she no longer has time travel access.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:46 AM on May 28


I don't think I've seen anyone discussing this yet, and it only just occurred to me, but the reality of the world going forward is you've got a universe in which half of everybody alive died, and the other half lived for five years processing that loss. It's clear, from what Peter says to Tony, that he remembers turning to dust. He remembers fucking DYING. So that's billions of people who were dead, and now they're not anymore. How do you go about your life once you've had that experience?
posted by wabbittwax at 7:04 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]


wabbitwax, the more I think about the Endgame timeline, the more I realize I want three more movies:

-one set in the five year gap, where we don't necessarily follow the superheroes around - we just see the impact of the Snapture on regular life; maybe call it "Avengers: Dust in the Wind".
-a sequel to that one that covers the impact of the Unsnapture - the people who have returned, who remember dying, who are dealing with a world that has kept moving on for five years; I don't have a working title yet.
-and Captain America: Timey-Wimey, in which we follow Cap on his journey to return the time stones (meeting Red Skull again, going to Valhalla & maybe meeting Odin and/or Sif, seeing him connect with the Ancient One, and so forth).
posted by nubs at 7:34 AM on May 28 [5 favorites]


2014!Nebula died at the battle though

Right. I meant she had access to the tech, bringing daddy in to start the battle at the compound. There was barely any time before the gauntlet being done before Thanos shot them to pieces. They barely had time to test the gauntlet extensively, what more survey what the world's inhabitants of 2023 might have wanted. Tony's instruction to Bruce was like a lot of their solutions in the movie, the best they could do.
posted by cendawanita at 7:36 AM on May 28


How do you go about your life once you've had that experience?

Many theses have been written about how there are literal actual gods in the Marvel universe, and yet there also seem to be functioning monotheistic religions. Thor is real, and somehow the entire world hasn't realigned itself to deal with that fact.
posted by Etrigan at 7:37 AM on May 28 [1 favorite]


Which underscored the Ancient One's objection about taking the stones away because they might have died before they could return it. (ETA: sorry this is continuing my last comment)
posted by cendawanita at 7:38 AM on May 28


Many theses have been written about how there are literal actual gods in the Marvel universe, and yet there also seem to be functioning monotheistic religions. Thor is real, and somehow the entire world hasn't realigned itself to deal with that fact.

People want to believe what they want to believe and will ignore everything else to the contrary.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:48 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]


Also MCU Thor is a space alien who lives on a planet you can reach with a sufficiently advanced rocketship. His magic hammer is no more impressive than what Tony Stark builds out of Earthbound technology. The MCU is an age of wonders, but if I lived there I’d be wondering if the God of the Bible might just be another impressive alien with supertech, not if we should be reviving the Viking religion.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:38 AM on May 28 [10 favorites]


Thor is real, and somehow the entire world hasn't realigned itself to deal with that fact.

Yes and no: A background sign in Spider-Man: Homecoming reveals the existence of the Korean Church of Asgard, the sheer specificity of which would seem to imply that there are probably also other denominations of Asgard-worshippers within the MCU. No idea how the arrival of Ragnarok and then the Infinity Snap affected attendance at these churches, but it's in there.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:10 PM on May 28 [1 favorite]


I maintain the MCU totally has a popular and cringeworthy LokiWasRight subreddit
posted by The Whelk at 2:24 PM on May 28 [7 favorites]


Loki killed Baldur; maybe you're prepared to overlook that but I'm not.
posted by orrnyereg at 2:54 PM on May 28 [1 favorite]


He got better!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:57 PM on May 28 [2 favorites]


Technically, Hodur killed Baldur. Which isn't better. In fact it's worse, but still. Implausible deniability is something.
posted by Grangousier at 4:10 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]


LOKI: "Arguing about how we assign blame to specific individuals is just a distraction that keeps us from addressing the systemic biases that led to misletoe being completely overlooked by the Baldur Safety Commission."
posted by straight at 3:28 PM on May 30 [11 favorites]


LOKI: "Mistletoe doesn't kill people: people kill people! With mistletoe. Other people. Not me."
posted by Grangousier at 4:27 PM on May 30 [6 favorites]


Justice at Jotunheim
posted by orrnyereg at 8:06 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]


Finally saw this, not a comic reader or 'fan' but have generally enjoyed the marvel films but this was barely meh, it was one long shaggy dog joke ending for compleatists, meandering talkie with some great cgi mixed in but not much of an actual ending.

Now let's see the results of the first six months of half the worlds population suddenly returning, wanting to move back into their houses that are either lived in by someone else or unpaired, and it doesn't look like the food production has been kept up to pre-vanish levels so probably mass starvation or is there a superhero that shoots bread from his fingers?
posted by sammyo at 12:08 PM on June 1 [1 favorite]


And that was the day Taterman, long a D-list superhero, became an Avenger.
posted by nubs at 9:00 AM on June 2 [5 favorites]


Everyone keeps talking about food production, but wasn't thanos's thing killing half of all life? Not just half of all sentients or half of all creatures. So wouldn't unsnapturing double the crops and farmstock that were halved too? Besides, it's not like humans ever reached the point where we only produce what we need, why assume we'd have suddenly become ecologically principled?
posted by solotoro at 9:15 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]


Solotoro, that is (I think) somewhat implied that the first sign given that the Unsnapping worked was the appearance of birds outside Avengers HQ. But I don’t think, in general, either of Infinity War or Emdgame did a good job with this - the focus was always on people and I don’t recall any depiction of plant or animal life disappearing.
posted by nubs at 9:27 AM on June 2






Timelines in Endgame, Explained via some neat web tech.
So Endgame is just Primer with a slightly higher budget? Marvel, give Shane Carruth a camera! He's already said he was not interested in doing superhero movies but the guy has so much trouble getting his projects off the ground so who knows.
posted by elgilito at 3:35 AM on June 12 [1 favorite]


-a sequel to that one that covers the impact of the Unsnapture - the people who have returned, who remember dying, who are dealing with a world that has kept moving on for five years; I don't have a working title yet.

How about They Came Back?
posted by Paul Slade at 11:11 AM on June 17


Or "Oh shit, the stove was on when I died, causing a fire that burned down most of my neighborhood and now their relatives are mad that I'm back"?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:59 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]


Just in case the original movie wasn't long enough, they're rereleasing Endgame with even more footage.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:59 AM on June 19 [1 favorite]


Guess they really want to beat Avatar.
posted by nubs at 12:48 PM on June 19


In fairness Avatar also had a pre-home-video rerelease that topped off its final gross with a few extra tens of millions.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:54 PM on June 19


Avengers: Neverendgame
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:29 PM on June 19 [4 favorites]


I will cheerfully spend another $10 US to help topple Avatar
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:56 PM on June 19 [5 favorites]


But given that both Avatar and Marvel are now all part of the same big, happy vertically-integrated corporate quasi-monopoly, do the box office totals even matter at this point?
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:31 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


do the box office totals even matter at this point?

Only if the faux-competition drives more dollars to the giant mouse, I guess.
posted by nubs at 10:35 AM on June 20


Anything that makes Avatar look bad is okay by me.

I hated that movie so damn much and that is a hill i would die on so help me
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:58 AM on June 20 [7 favorites]


still wondering why Avatar is getting sequels
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:33 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


because somebody only looked at the box office numbers and not the fact that the movie as a movie wasn't all that good? I mean, people went to see it because of the technology at the time, not because it had a story that was engaging
posted by nubs at 1:41 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I HAVE FOUND MY PEOPLE
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:46 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I mean it has a freaking amusement park or something, why, why?
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:04 PM on June 20


Wait, in the funeral scene, way in the back kinda obscured, was that Jessica Jones? Does that mean some of the hero's will be going to jail for, reasons?
posted by sammyo at 1:24 PM on June 21 [1 favorite]


sammyo - I just came from a screening (I got confused and thought the rerelease with new footage was this weekend) and I can confirm that Jessica Jones was NOT in the funeral scene. They do a slow pan from front to back so you see everyone who's there, and the only women in the back were Agent Hill and Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:11 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]


Timelines in Endgame, Explained via some neat web tech:

Since cap doesn't return through the machine, we can conclude he never returns to his own reality. The Cap sitting on the bench is not the Cap that we just saw travel back in time. Rather, the Cap on the bench is from this branch's parent reality. Thus, the movie does not portray prime reality, it portrays a branched reality.


It would be extremely narratively unsatisfying for the movie to portray a branched reality and not prime reality.
posted by ejs at 10:03 AM on June 23 [2 favorites]


NPR's Pop Culture Happy hour has an Endgame spoiler episode up now.
posted by bowline at 1:00 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]


Man, every time I hear the Russo's defense for how they treated Black Widow I just get angrier.

Like, in theory, in the world they lived in - Black Widow had been leading the avengers for five years, while Tony Stark was a recluse. Wouldn't it have made more sense for Black Widow's funeral to happen surrounded all of the avengers and friends while Tony Stark's happened with just his closest family? It's not like Tony's funeral was open to the public, so the public figure argument really doesn't hold up.

(I would have also been less bothered if they'd just added a second wreath)
posted by dinty_moore at 1:54 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]


Like, I understand that watching the version where Nat gets the bigger funeral wouldn't go over well with the audience and ultimately be unsatisfying because Iron Man is the bigger character and we don't really connect with Nat being the leader of the Avengers because we don't really get to linger for it for longer than it takes to eat a sandwich, but the Russos' explanation that it's because Tony is a public figure in the Marvel universe simply does not work.
posted by dinty_moore at 2:12 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]


I never thought about it that way but now I'm angry again.

(Also, holy shit do I want some stories set in the five-year gap. THAT'S the Black Widow movie I want them to make, not a Red Room prequel, but I'd take animation, comics, etc. It's a great setting!)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:48 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]


Endgame becomes no 1 film of all time.

Honestly, I’m mainly happy that Avatar finally got knocked off.
posted by liquorice at 6:37 PM on July 20 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I loved Endgame, but wouldn't call in the #1 film of all time.

But fuck yeah, Avatar was knocked outta that spot!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:36 PM on July 20 [2 favorites]


As someone on Twitter noted, the "Green Zoe Saldana movie" has beaten out the "Blue Zoe Saldana movie"
posted by rmd1023 at 1:48 PM on July 27 [14 favorites]


Quick, someone cast her as a red alien!
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:38 AM on July 28 [4 favorites]


Also, holy shit do I want some stories set in the five-year gap. THAT'S the Black Widow movie I want them to make, not a Red Room prequel, but I'd take animation, comics, etc. It's a great setting!

Yeah, when I went to see it again a couple of weeks ago, I was amazed at how short that segment actually was in the movie. I can understand that because the point of the movie is building up to the amazing blockbuster moment of all the Avengers coming together and kicking butt against Thanos and team, but I think I thought it was longer because that is where my mind had lingered since the first viewing.

So much potential in that period! For example:
-what the heck is Cap up to? I mean, we see him running a support group, but when he shows up at HQ, it's after the meeting with the other Avengers and the conversation he has with BW makes me think he's not around much. In fact, it seems like he's making some kind of peace with what happened, perhaps more so than everyone else - which makes sense, given that he's already come back to a world changed beyond recognition once.
-I want to see Banner make his peace with the Hulk.
-What happens with Wakanda and the plan to share their knowledge & wonders with the world? Does that have a major impact to play in the recovery?
-I also want to see stories about the world - not just the Avengers. I want to see what the world is like to live in for those five years, because there's some interesting images: empty stadiums; streets filled with trash; but also massive monuments to the missing.

A Black Widow movie in that time period could be interesting (and a chance to explore what happened with the Widow-Banner relationship, which only shows in subtext in Infinity War/Endgame), but it can't be the Russo brothers. I don't feel they fully get the character.

(Also, one little detail I caught on second viewing is going to bug me - when Strange shows up at the final battle, it's clear from the portal that he's coming direct from Titan. So he had the ability to gate everyone back to Earth back in IW? Why, then, was he asking Tony to turn the ship around? And wouldn't it have made sense for him to get the time stone back where there's more people to help defend it? Also, how did he coordinate the timing of that move with Wong? I mean, I know, a wizard did it, but it's frustrating)
posted by nubs at 8:24 AM on July 29 [4 favorites]


Presumably Strange and the other Avengers on Titan came back, Strange teleported to Wong, told him to go get EVERYONE, teleported back to Titan, gathered the Avengers there and brought them to the battlefield about the same time Wong and his subordinates brought everyone else.

Why he didn't do that earlier? It's presumably one of the 16 million options he considered that would have failed.
posted by straight at 3:20 PM on July 29


My first thought about Nat sacrificing herself was she couldn't have imagined explaining to Lila why Aunty Nat let her father die. I was expecting her to explicitly say something along those lines.

As for the film, I'm kind of glad it's all over and after seeing Captain Marvel I think if you can't make an unproblematic MCU film nowadays then perhaps you shouldn't bother.
posted by fullerine at 10:05 AM on August 4


Well, hell. Late to the party, but I loved it. Watched it for the first time this past weekend and twice more since then. Sure, so much of the big final battle was fan service, but I’m a fan, so...
posted by grubi at 4:44 AM on August 16 [1 favorite]


this movie is finally available for streaming rentals, so i finally watched it. it was trash. none of the time travel talk makes any sense, all of the “stone logic” was stoned af.

the 50% of the world’s population wake up and can mobilize themselves to the battlefield in a few hours? I guess they had wizards for it.

why was thanos super powerful *without* any stones?

how do you put a soul stone back?

how did captain america get back to the current timestream.

isn’t the world broken now without the stones in this dimension?

how did they have enough pym particles or whatever to transport all of thanos’ army etc?

mostly though it was predictable, rote, and boring. and everything that wasn’t predictable was because it has no explanation within the context of the universe.

i’ve enjoyed a few of these MCU movies, and thought infinity war was not that terrible, but this suuuuuucked. I do not understand the raves or the consistently positive reviews.
posted by dis_integration at 11:06 PM on August 16 [1 favorite]


Yeah, logic and scientific fact are not why this movie is popular.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:59 AM on August 17 [2 favorites]


The science and technology Thanos has are so advanced, he could probably make more Pym particles once he had a sample. And he was powerful enough to conquer entire planets and intimidate Ronan and Loki before he had any stones.

I think someone mentioned that the universe-sustaining power of the stones still exists but is dispersed after Thanos destroys them.

I agree that the soul stone stuff is weak.
posted by straight at 10:22 PM on August 17


The negative colouration on Captain American's costume (currently used in the US military as part of their uniform) is really disappointing, as it has been coopted by fucktard white supremecists. There is a cartoon - that I can't currently find - that were recommended before; how police appearances went increasingly military-looking, how clean-shaven buzz-cut military went to long hair + beards + wraparound shades extremist/ mercenary and blue to black for the colours of law enforcement.

Fuck the alt-right iconography.

I think that I've always been pretty consistent when critiquing time travel - do it right or don't even try to do it at all.

I can't be bothered to see for myself if any of the time travel stuff was actually in the original movies. I'd be kind of impressed if they had this planned from day one (or at least, a plant that may one day deliver unexpected fruit) but I'd forgive myself by the time I woke up next.

It's pretty, and has a hyper pretty cast. It's core, though, is that it's a vehicle to generate revenue.
posted by porpoise at 11:40 PM on August 21 [1 favorite]


It's core, though, is that it's a vehicle to generate revenue.

That's 100% of movies that appear in theaters.

I'm not pleased that Disney owns so much of the market right now, but I can't deny that Kevin Feige has shepherded the MCU into some very entertaining areas. I'm down for whatever comes next.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:17 AM on August 22


It's core, though, is that it's a vehicle to generate revenue.

That's 100% of movies that appear in theaters.


That's true in a narrow sense, people putting up money for movies do hope to get something back from it in return, at least breaking even, but movies are often made as much for the desire to support a story or artist they believe in than any profit making venture.

Making something like Endgame is entirely different than financing something like, I dunno, maybe Lucretia Martel's Zama, which needed 30 producers including a number of artists from the film community to raise the 3.5 million to make or Chloe Zhao's indie movies set on the Pine Ridge reservation or pretty much any documentary or movie that features no stars and isn't a genre flick. People do make movies for the love of film sometimes, not always for big profits. It's just too bad so few people actually seek those movies out as even occasional respite from the standard formula blockbusters Disney and those few other massive corporations use to define and shape the culture.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:52 AM on August 22


I'm not sure dollar signs were behind the fact that three different MCU films -- Ragnarok, Black Panther, and Captain America -- were about the sins of colonialism and the importance of decolonizing. That seems like a message that would send a salesman running.
posted by maxsparber at 10:15 AM on August 22


Also, let's not ignore the fact that the movie with the best per-screen average in the country over the last month was The Farewell -- sometimes it's not a matter of audiences being too dumb to appreciate thoughtful or potentially challenging content, sometimes it's a matter of studios not having enough confidence or marketing savvy to let audiences know when they make these kinds of movies, and open them wide enough for people to actually see them instead of waiting for streaming. If they build it, people will come.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:28 AM on August 22 [1 favorite]


I don't want to derail the thread any more than I have, so let's just say I think there are as many problems with claiming progressive values in any of those movies when they are matched by regressive ones and even were that not the case the very idea that Disney is or should be an arbiter of cultural values is grotesque but increasingly true given their dominance of the market and thus ability to define what is acceptable or not according to Disney's needs first, the rest of the world somewhere later.

I also think per screen average isn't a particularly great measure of audience interest when that is sometimes like three screens in major cities and even glancing at our own fanfare pages, as well as pretty much anywhere else would show how little attention anything outside a major studio release gets.

I'll drop it there, and just day I've nothing against people enjoying Endgame or anything else exactly, I just didn't agree with the idea every movie is pretty much the same in how they're made or what values they might provide.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:16 PM on August 22 [1 favorite]


I'm not even sure what conversation we're having, heh.

Disney owning everything is problematic as fuck.
The MCU is pretty enjoyable, though far from flawless. It does a decent job of surfing stories, while never going as deep as I would like (aka all the happened in the Blip). But I knew that when I ponied up my money, so no major complaints. Just a longing for some deep, immersive storytelling.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:57 PM on August 22 [1 favorite]


I think that I've always been pretty consistent when critiquing time travel - do it right or don't even try to do it at all.

I'd say Endgame does it very right. Since they're specifically not going back in time to change their own past, but just to borrow from it -- with the understanding that any changes made produce a new separate timeline -- they don't really have any of the usual problems with time travel stories.
posted by straight at 2:09 PM on August 22


UNTIL THE END CAPTAIN AMERICA MADE A NEW TIMELINE BUT THEN SHOWED UP IN OUR TIMELINE.
posted by maxsparber at 2:35 PM on August 22 [3 favorites]


WHICH JUST MEANS HE LIVED A QUIET LIFE WITH PEGGY THAT DIDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING.
posted by straight at 2:42 PM on August 22 [1 favorite]


The negative colouration on Captain American's costume (currently used in the US military as part of their uniform) is really disappointing

I'm curious what you're referring to here. Do you mean the reds and blues are sometimes de-saturated? (Although less so in Endgame than most of the previous movies, unless you count the final battle where everything is disappointingly dark and de-saturated.) Where do you see that in US military uniforms?
posted by straight at 2:54 PM on August 22 [1 favorite]


So, where does Cap go now? Hang out in this timeline as grandfather type, return to the other timeline or what?

And what happened to Peggy? Did they have adventures together?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:04 PM on August 22


I'm curious what you're referring to here.

Monochrome US flag [quora]

That threat is pretty shitty; we've had scattered discussion about this through a bunch of different threads/ circumstances.

There are references I want to use, but can't find them right now.

https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/cops-investigated-for-sharing-punisher-skull-so-union-tells-all-cops-to-do-it-BeZmTYdTdEOFoCOYta86fg/

Is relevant, but someone else put together a much more easily digestible webcomic version.
posted by porpoise at 12:01 AM on August 23


Peggy married someone else in the other timeline. The past was changed.
posted by maxsparber at 3:52 AM on August 23 [1 favorite]


I mean...I guess you could argue that they were always so coy about the identity of Peggy's husband that it could have been Steve always. I have a much harder time accepting that Peggy was an architect of Shieldra with everything that Steve knew about the future. How does Steve live quietly enough for that not to affect the future, especially of we're to believe they had a good relationship? I'm trying to go with Looper rules and not think about it too much, but it really is terrible.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:26 AM on August 23 [4 favorites]


SHHHH, don't think about it, just enjoy the other stuff!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:40 AM on August 23


I mean...I guess you could argue that they were always so coy about the identity of Peggy's husband that it could have been Steve always.

But that means he always went back in time, so there aren't multiverses, there is just this world, in which everything is preordained.
posted by maxsparber at 3:44 PM on August 23


It was never Steve cause Peggy, in her senior years, mentioned it wasn’t Steve in this time line
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:12 PM on August 23


He probably also outed Shydra in the other time line. Can’t imagine Cap letting that stand.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:13 PM on August 23


There are multiverses, but you don't necessarily branch off into a different one unless you change your own past. If the changes you make time travelling are (as far as you know) consistent with your own past, then maybe your time travel happed the first time you lived through it and you're still in the same universe.

When Steve goes back in time he can't change his past, he can only choose whether to live in his own past or create a branch to a different one. He can go save a dude named Bucky from Hydra, but he can't save his Bucky. And if he creates a different universe, it's probably doomed to be irrevocably half-slaughtered by Thanos.
posted by straight at 4:50 PM on August 23


Oh sure, but being able to save ‘a’ Bucky would be compelling.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:46 PM on August 23 [2 favorites]


So I had an insight last week, when I watched this with a friend who hadn't seen it yet. We both said that Hawkeye should have been the sacrificed, because nobody cares about Hawkeye...which meant it had to be Black Widow because it's the audience that needs to lose someone they care about in that scene.
posted by nubs at 1:19 PM on September 3


I guess, but I don't think it worked the way it was intended, since instead of making me sad it just made me angry. And yeah, it didn't help that Gamora died the exact same way, as if it was just a Strong Female Character sacrificial cliff.
posted by dinty_moore at 3:25 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]


I agree that it did not work as intended; I'm noting that the reaction to Hawkeye being sacrificed is going to be "meh", and that they wanted to get something more of an emotional reaction from the audience. That they had to do it by killing a strong female character (again) is perhaps what makes me the most angry about it. Like, they fridged her to both motivate male characters and to ensure they got an audience reaction.
posted by nubs at 3:46 PM on September 3 [1 favorite]


We both said that Hawkeye should have been the sacrificed, because nobody cares about Hawkeye

Hawkeye had kids, they cared whether he came back. With Tony's kid losing him, it might have been too much for audiences.

Nat works because she's been working her ass trying to hold the team and what it does, together. She finally balances all the red in her ledger.

Yeah, there's a very interesting sub plot about Hawkeye being reunited with his family and having to live with all he's done. There's also a helluva good show about what happened to everyone during the "blip," but Disney isn't touching either one of those.

I'm not insensitive to people being angry about another strong female character being sacrificed, but story wise, the arrival of Captain Marvel and her sheer power adds dimension to that argument.

This is Nat's fight and the reason why she's even still existing after the SNAP, to make things right and fix the world after it broke.

THAT'S why it should have been a double funeral. That fact that Nat was just sort of shunted off into some quiet ceremony is the galling part, because without her, Tony wouldn't have had all the stones for his last ego trip.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:56 AM on September 4 [1 favorite]


With the arrival of so many awesome and powerful women into prominence into the MCU, Nat no longer has to serve as the single female character role who's every action is seen through one lenses.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:00 AM on September 4


With the arrival of so many awesome and powerful women into prominence into the MCU, Nat no longer has to serve as the single female character role who's every action is seen through one lenses.

I mean. We got one titular female character. And lost two leading characters the same way (and then sort of got one back minus all of the character development, because that apparently wasn't important?). Feel good moment aside, I'm not feeling like the MCU is close enough to gender parity that they can kill off their core female characters without worrying about it, OR that the main issue with killing off Nat or Gamora were just that she were women. That's part of it (and it's not like women are interchangeable, so like, giving us Captain Marvel doesn't really make up for anything?). The MCU has been selling Natasha short since Winter Soldier (She got an arc and character development in that one! That was pretty cool.), and right when Marvel tells us that they're going to finally giver her her own movie, they kill her off and don't even bother to give us room to mourn - or even get to see her as a leader. I don't think the writers even thought she was worth mourning. She's apparently always doing the cool stuff and character development offscreen.

I'm not even excited about her movie anymore, because - what's the point? I don't trust the MCU with her character, and the movie isn't set at a particularly interesting time where she's known to have experienced a lot of character growth offscreen*. I'll probably still see it for box office numbers or whatever, but man, if you'd told me I would be this unenthused for a Black Widow movie in 2012 I wouldn't have believed you.

With Gamora, they might address that 2014 Gamora is not 2018 Gamora? In a way that's not straight comedy? Maybe allow her to develop differently, and process the issues with Thanos? But I'm not counting on it, either.

I liked the version upthread where Natasha wins the fight with Hawkeye, but Clint is the one to die - she accidentally sacrificed him. Or that what Natasha sacrificed wasn't her life, but maybe her connection to her work (what she cares most about) - so nobody really recognizes her anymore and that's what she's struggling against.

Clint's never been developed, but I didn't get the feeling that anyone was even trying to pretend with him.

*Times I would have like to see a Black Widow Movie set: Right after Winter Soldier, when she apparently was thinking of doing something besides Black Widowing; During the five year gap, actually show her being a leader; being a Baby Agent and learning about how friendship is magic or something.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:44 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]


I would like it if they could manage to have the Black Widow movie bring back the Black Widow who was thinking 3 steps ahead of anyone and can interrogate someone while she's tied to a chair, who can outsmart Loki and get him to spill his plan. They're almost certainly not going to, and it annoys me.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:11 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]


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