Hawkeye: Never Meet Your Heroes / Hide and Seek
November 24, 2021 5:02 AM - Season 1, Episode 1 - Subscribe
Episodes 1 & 2: Kate Bishop lands in the middle of a criminal conspiracy, forcing Clint out of retirement.
The Verge: Hawkeye starts out strong because it doesn’t take itself too seriously.
The Ringer: What the ‘Hawkeye’ Comic Tells Us About the Marvel Miniseries. Matt Fraction on the breakout star of the show: He’s a good boy. I just hope he stays grounded.
The Verge: Hawkeye starts out strong because it doesn’t take itself too seriously.
The Ringer: What the ‘Hawkeye’ Comic Tells Us About the Marvel Miniseries. Matt Fraction on the breakout star of the show: He’s a good boy. I just hope he stays grounded.
I kind of want to watch this, but, damned if Hawkeye isn't the least interesting of the MCU heroes.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:12 AM on November 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 10:12 AM on November 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
as long as you're happy to accept they're approaching a fraction-verse singularity, he's suddenly now gotten a whole load of personality (even his whole mcu!family!).
It makes me think, for a movie i genuinely dislike, so much has sprung from AoU, but also in the sense of either trying to run away from the setups or living with them. This show is actively choosing running away. Automatically Clint is now 200% more interesting, with a lot of interesting elements cribbed from the one iconic run in the comics. And Shane Black.
I know it's my fondness for the comics run that's making every story element from that title that's leaving me well-disposed (and there's a lot of them), and I think I need to rewatch because direction-wise, it's pretty pedestrian imo. Even if it's also trying to do a version of a Shane Black christmas movie. Capable but nothing fancy (and for whatever trouble I have with Loki, narratively, that's a beautifully shot and directed production). But that's just my own standards. By MCU's metrics, it's pretty above average.
At least stay for the first 15 minutes to watch the perfectly-bad staging of 'Rogers! The Musical'.
posted by cendawanita at 10:45 AM on November 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
It makes me think, for a movie i genuinely dislike, so much has sprung from AoU, but also in the sense of either trying to run away from the setups or living with them. This show is actively choosing running away. Automatically Clint is now 200% more interesting, with a lot of interesting elements cribbed from the one iconic run in the comics. And Shane Black.
I know it's my fondness for the comics run that's making every story element from that title that's leaving me well-disposed (and there's a lot of them), and I think I need to rewatch because direction-wise, it's pretty pedestrian imo. Even if it's also trying to do a version of a Shane Black christmas movie. Capable but nothing fancy (and for whatever trouble I have with Loki, narratively, that's a beautifully shot and directed production). But that's just my own standards. By MCU's metrics, it's pretty above average.
At least stay for the first 15 minutes to watch the perfectly-bad staging of 'Rogers! The Musical'.
posted by cendawanita at 10:45 AM on November 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
Hawkeye is arguably not the main character of this show; it’s more about Hawkeye passing the title of Hawkeye to a new Hawkeye. So far, Hailee Steinfeld has slightly more screen time than Renner does.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:47 AM on November 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:47 AM on November 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm not super into Hawkeye before this, but I enjoyed the episodes this morning. It's good use of him as "tired family man who's done with this shit but has to clean up his ronin mess anyway." Kate's interesting so far. I'd feel skeeved out by the fiance too, but challenging him to a swordfight? Bwahahahah.
I kept thinking of the line from The Santa Clause: "put on the suit, and you're the big guy!" Though how anyone would mistake a 22-year-old girl for a dude who was tearing up the mafia for years or whatever, sizewise, I don't know. Seemed pretty obvious that's a girl they were dealing with.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:32 AM on November 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
I kept thinking of the line from The Santa Clause: "put on the suit, and you're the big guy!" Though how anyone would mistake a 22-year-old girl for a dude who was tearing up the mafia for years or whatever, sizewise, I don't know. Seemed pretty obvious that's a girl they were dealing with.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:32 AM on November 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm just glad that this version skipped the sexual assault part of Kate's backstory. (For whoever is watching this show and doesn't follow the comics, Kate went with archery as one of her martial arts because she was saved by Hawkeye at an impressionable age, but the driving force behind her singleminded training was a sexual assault.) It was a real sour note of lazy comics writing and I much prefer the existential dread of alien invasion (presumably amplified by the snappening) plus her mother's career in security coming through as an obsessive need to protect people.
As funny as the LARP sequence was, I don't buy the organization's response to a credible accusation of theft. Making someone join and fight it out is for "he stole my look" not "that person is wearing stolen gear." Yes, even if your player base has a lot of firefighters. For that sort of thing, you have a ref quietly pull the accused player into an out of character area and have a conversation. I realize this is being picky, but LARPers seem to be a favorite butt of jokes in a lot of genre shows these days and it gets old.
It looks like we more or less have confirmation of the theory that having the Avengers compound land on him was the cause (or at least the last straw) for Hawkeye's hearing loss.
I'm willing to forgive the Ronin confusion only because of the comic book convention that a domino mask will fool even close friends. Masks are superhero magic. That and after a point it was only the TV news still confused, the tracksuit mafia seemed to have figured out they were looking for Kate once they got over their initial shock.
posted by Karmakaze at 2:07 PM on November 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
As funny as the LARP sequence was, I don't buy the organization's response to a credible accusation of theft. Making someone join and fight it out is for "he stole my look" not "that person is wearing stolen gear." Yes, even if your player base has a lot of firefighters. For that sort of thing, you have a ref quietly pull the accused player into an out of character area and have a conversation. I realize this is being picky, but LARPers seem to be a favorite butt of jokes in a lot of genre shows these days and it gets old.
It looks like we more or less have confirmation of the theory that having the Avengers compound land on him was the cause (or at least the last straw) for Hawkeye's hearing loss.
I'm willing to forgive the Ronin confusion only because of the comic book convention that a domino mask will fool even close friends. Masks are superhero magic. That and after a point it was only the TV news still confused, the tracksuit mafia seemed to have figured out they were looking for Kate once they got over their initial shock.
posted by Karmakaze at 2:07 PM on November 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
Bro!
posted by chavenet at 3:12 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 3:12 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Bro!
posted by sixswitch at 3:16 PM on November 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by sixswitch at 3:16 PM on November 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
This was fun and I resent it for making me care about Renner's Hawkeye. Hailee Steinfeld is a delight, as she is in every single thing I've seen her in.
My major complaint (and it's petty, I know) but ... 2 years (since this takes place 2 years after Endgame) is not enough time to stage a major Broadway production. I mean, maybe Rogers! was still just in previews and OK, I'll sort of allow that there's the possibility the writers weren't snapped and had already been working on an Avengers musical before everyone was restored but ... no, 2 years isn't enough.
posted by edencosmic at 3:19 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
My major complaint (and it's petty, I know) but ... 2 years (since this takes place 2 years after Endgame) is not enough time to stage a major Broadway production. I mean, maybe Rogers! was still just in previews and OK, I'll sort of allow that there's the possibility the writers weren't snapped and had already been working on an Avengers musical before everyone was restored but ... no, 2 years isn't enough.
posted by edencosmic at 3:19 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
I forgot to say that I fucking loved the musical so much.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:40 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:40 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
I kind of want to watch this, but, damned if Hawkeye isn't the least interesting of the MCU heroes.
They hang a lampshade on this in the second episode, where Kate lectures him on the value of branding. It has a genuinely laugh-out-loud line, referring to... another franchise entirely.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:59 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
They hang a lampshade on this in the second episode, where Kate lectures him on the value of branding. It has a genuinely laugh-out-loud line, referring to... another franchise entirely.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:59 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
I am struggling to believe that an on- Broadway musical looks like it cost $12.50 to stage, but that's a pretty minor quibble.
Fraction Hawkeye is way better than MCU Hawkeye, admittedly a low bar.
Why did ringing the bell break the tower?
I do not trust her mother. Mom's new squeeze is laughably skeezy. But Mom runs a security/surveillance company? I think she set up the auction and had Armand killed.
This is Disney, Clint's definitely getting home for Christmas but, will he end up bringing Kate along? And Pizza Dog of course.
posted by emjaybee at 4:27 PM on November 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Fraction Hawkeye is way better than MCU Hawkeye, admittedly a low bar.
Why did ringing the bell break the tower?
I do not trust her mother. Mom's new squeeze is laughably skeezy. But Mom runs a security/surveillance company? I think she set up the auction and had Armand killed.
This is Disney, Clint's definitely getting home for Christmas but, will he end up bringing Kate along? And Pizza Dog of course.
posted by emjaybee at 4:27 PM on November 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Mom's new squeeze is laughably skeezy.
I was thinking that with the check jacket, the turtleneck, the blatant moustache, he is being coded as a 1970s antagonist. This seems like a guy Bill Bixby would have faced in a special two-part episode in the second season.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:38 PM on November 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
I was thinking that with the check jacket, the turtleneck, the blatant moustache, he is being coded as a 1970s antagonist. This seems like a guy Bill Bixby would have faced in a special two-part episode in the second season.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:38 PM on November 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
The full song from Rogers: The Musical is up on Youtube.
The actor who plays Pizza Dog is on Instagram.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:40 PM on November 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
The actor who plays Pizza Dog is on Instagram.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:40 PM on November 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
I'm really enjoying this. I was wondering how they could repaint what they did to Clint in Age of Ultron (especially the Ultimates!Clint aspects they brought in; I like that Clint is a snarky disaster human in a lot of older runs but I hate Ults with a passion) with a veneer of the Fraction version of him, and they threaded the needle well, I thought. I really like this rendition of Katie-Kate; there are more hesitant and young/inexperienced elements to her than the slightly more jaded take in the comics. It had lots of fun stuff and I am just loving seeing a live-action version of Lucky and the Tracksuit Mafia (Bro!).
Rogers The Musical was fucking fabulous; who knows what damage the snappening caused and maybe $12.50 was all they had to stage it, even on Broadway. "I Can Do This All Day" omg. Also adoring the Aja art credits. So far, this is turning out to be my fave entry in the D+ shows. It's like they gave me a birthday present!
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:36 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Rogers The Musical was fucking fabulous; who knows what damage the snappening caused and maybe $12.50 was all they had to stage it, even on Broadway. "I Can Do This All Day" omg. Also adoring the Aja art credits. So far, this is turning out to be my fave entry in the D+ shows. It's like they gave me a birthday present!
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:36 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
This was a good start, mostly because it painted Clint as having a bit if PTSD, and grounding Kate Bishop’s background and skills.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:17 PM on November 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:17 PM on November 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
Why did ringing the bell break the tower?
I thought the bell was wrong with enough force that it snapped the beam it sits on and then the heavy falling bell destroyed the tower. Like the beam is designed to withstand the forces associated with someone ringing it via the rope, not hitting the hammer with high force. But I’m not a bell engineer.
posted by jeoc at 7:45 PM on November 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
I thought the bell was wrong with enough force that it snapped the beam it sits on and then the heavy falling bell destroyed the tower. Like the beam is designed to withstand the forces associated with someone ringing it via the rope, not hitting the hammer with high force. But I’m not a bell engineer.
posted by jeoc at 7:45 PM on November 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
"Guys, I can see through the bag."
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 8:00 PM on November 24, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 8:00 PM on November 24, 2021 [14 favorites]
LET’S TALK ABOUT HAWKEYE’S MUSICAL NUMBER
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:28 PM on November 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:28 PM on November 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
My thoughts:
- 100% agreed that this is the best MCU Hawkeye so far, in particular because they're taking as much from the Fraction/Aja run as they can (including the general design and typography of the titles). Also, "so much has sprung from AoU, but also in the sense of either trying to run away from the setups or living with them"--absolutely. And, yes, leaving out that bit of Kate's story was an improvement; there's a trope that I won't name that addresses that.
- Rogers The Musical was probably in the works since the general public became aware that he'd defrosted, maybe as early as his dashing out into the middle of 21st century Times Square. The scene that we see may have been added after much of the book and songs were already written; one imagines that the musical may have had a troubled and prolonged development due to Rogers becoming an outlaw for a while, then the Blip, then his disappearing. It could very well be the Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark of the MCU.
- I already knew much of the cast that would be appearing, but I think that I may have literally LOLed when I saw Tony Dalton and figured out who he was playing. His look here isn't exactly Lalo Salamanca, but it's Lalo-adjacent, and the scene where he pretends that he's no good at fencing, then gets tricked into showing what he can really do, is chef's-kiss-worthy.
- Pizza Dog, of course.
- Bro!
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:18 PM on November 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
- 100% agreed that this is the best MCU Hawkeye so far, in particular because they're taking as much from the Fraction/Aja run as they can (including the general design and typography of the titles). Also, "so much has sprung from AoU, but also in the sense of either trying to run away from the setups or living with them"--absolutely. And, yes, leaving out that bit of Kate's story was an improvement; there's a trope that I won't name that addresses that.
- Rogers The Musical was probably in the works since the general public became aware that he'd defrosted, maybe as early as his dashing out into the middle of 21st century Times Square. The scene that we see may have been added after much of the book and songs were already written; one imagines that the musical may have had a troubled and prolonged development due to Rogers becoming an outlaw for a while, then the Blip, then his disappearing. It could very well be the Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark of the MCU.
- I already knew much of the cast that would be appearing, but I think that I may have literally LOLed when I saw Tony Dalton and figured out who he was playing. His look here isn't exactly Lalo Salamanca, but it's Lalo-adjacent, and the scene where he pretends that he's no good at fencing, then gets tricked into showing what he can really do, is chef's-kiss-worthy.
- Pizza Dog, of course.
- Bro!
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:18 PM on November 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
Who was the white lab coat guy supposed to be in Rogers!? Bruce? Even though Hulk was also there?
While Steinfeld was generally good as Katie-Kate, I was less than convinced by her stunt work. That opening shot of her scaling the building was just terrible. There was no sense of weight or force or human exertion. The fighting scenes had an equally cartoon-physics feel. Even the fencing scene was so full of quick jump cuts to different angles that it was hard to follow the action. I know that not all that can be put on the actor, but I do have to wonder if some of those editing and directing decisions resulted from her lack of experience doing physical work.
I really hope somebody (actually the same archery instructor who critiqued Renner's bow work after his first appearance as Clint) does the same for Steinfeld. I only have very limited experience with a bow, but I don't think the string is supposed to be right against her cheek. I know how much of a zing a bowstring can leave along the inside of the arm that isn't drawing the string--arm guards exist for a reason. I can't imagine how much damage they can leave on soft facial skin. Ouch! (Archery experts, please, please correct everything I just got wrong.)
posted by sardonyx at 9:26 PM on November 24, 2021
While Steinfeld was generally good as Katie-Kate, I was less than convinced by her stunt work. That opening shot of her scaling the building was just terrible. There was no sense of weight or force or human exertion. The fighting scenes had an equally cartoon-physics feel. Even the fencing scene was so full of quick jump cuts to different angles that it was hard to follow the action. I know that not all that can be put on the actor, but I do have to wonder if some of those editing and directing decisions resulted from her lack of experience doing physical work.
I really hope somebody (actually the same archery instructor who critiqued Renner's bow work after his first appearance as Clint) does the same for Steinfeld. I only have very limited experience with a bow, but I don't think the string is supposed to be right against her cheek. I know how much of a zing a bowstring can leave along the inside of the arm that isn't drawing the string--arm guards exist for a reason. I can't imagine how much damage they can leave on soft facial skin. Ouch! (Archery experts, please, please correct everything I just got wrong.)
posted by sardonyx at 9:26 PM on November 24, 2021
The 'Turn Off The Dark' of its 'verse! Please, I'm dead.
Re: the nerdist article linked on the musical and possible multiverse implications, my immediate thought is, "yes bring that mfer back from the moon or whatever, and make him watch it. For breaking the sacred timeline*."
*No longer sacred.
posted by cendawanita at 9:42 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Re: the nerdist article linked on the musical and possible multiverse implications, my immediate thought is, "yes bring that mfer back from the moon or whatever, and make him watch it. For breaking the sacred timeline*."
*No longer sacred.
posted by cendawanita at 9:42 PM on November 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
sardonyx, I'm not an archery expert, but doing a quick google, I'm finding a lot of people drawing the bow that far back. The mistake that I often see in movies is archers holding a draw for a long time; AFAIK, real archers don't do that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:28 PM on November 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:28 PM on November 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
One thing to remember about screen archery is that it often suffers from the same thing that has actors wearing glasses with no lenses or heroes doing the ergonomically terrible three point landing or live action Spider-Man constantly losing his mask. If it gets between the camera and a good looking shot, out it goes. That often means holding the bow wrong so the actors face is in the shot. I know Renner complained after Avengers that he went to all the trouble of taking archery lessons and then was directed to not do it like that. (Whether that's true or face saving after the fact I could not say.)
That said, yes some archery forms have the hand back by the archers ear and the string skimming the cheek. The idea is that they’re sighting right down the arrow, IIRC.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:51 PM on November 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
That said, yes some archery forms have the hand back by the archers ear and the string skimming the cheek. The idea is that they’re sighting right down the arrow, IIRC.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:51 PM on November 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Something else, that literally just occurred to me in the shower: right before Clint gets taken by the Bros, he calls his wife, who not only seems familiar with the "catch and release" gambit, but is aware that it was a favorite of Nat's, aka Black Widow--it is, in fact, what Nat's doing when we first see her in the first Avengers movie. Isn't that interesting.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:58 PM on November 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:58 PM on November 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I enjoyed that they subverted the "hero keeps secrets from their spouse" trope.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:30 AM on November 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:30 AM on November 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
Yup, his wife is a full partner it seems like, not just a trope to 'humanize' a character. I really appreciated that, and at least Linda Cardellini has something interesting to do (i hope!)
posted by cendawanita at 2:14 AM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 2:14 AM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
I was thinking that with the check jacket, the turtleneck, the blatant moustache, he is being coded as a 1970s antagonist.
Or possibly Paul F. Tompkins.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:54 AM on November 25, 2021 [26 favorites]
Or possibly Paul F. Tompkins.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:54 AM on November 25, 2021 [26 favorites]
This was a good start, mostly because it painted Clint as having a bit if PTSD, and grounding Kate Bishop’s background and skills.
I thought this as well: of the original six, Clint is the one Avenger who is both an unmodified human and still alive, and we see the toll — physical and mental — that a decade of this has taken on him; and while Kate has remarkable skills, a lot of us ruefully recollect how fit we were at 22, and if we had been training at a few physical skills regularly since age five, we’d have been even better.
I am a little confused about the chronology, though. If Kate is five in 2012 and 22 now, that seems to put this way after the 2023-2024 stretch that is the “present day” in the MCU.
And as for Rogers, Marvel did try to do a Cap musical back in the Cretaceous (1985).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:56 AM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I thought this as well: of the original six, Clint is the one Avenger who is both an unmodified human and still alive, and we see the toll — physical and mental — that a decade of this has taken on him; and while Kate has remarkable skills, a lot of us ruefully recollect how fit we were at 22, and if we had been training at a few physical skills regularly since age five, we’d have been even better.
I am a little confused about the chronology, though. If Kate is five in 2012 and 22 now, that seems to put this way after the 2023-2024 stretch that is the “present day” in the MCU.
And as for Rogers, Marvel did try to do a Cap musical back in the Cretaceous (1985).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:56 AM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
paper chromatographollogist: Thank you! Through no real fault of anyone's, I was constantly frustrated by Jack not being played by Paul F. Tompkins.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:25 AM on November 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 6:25 AM on November 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
Alternatively, perhaps Kate is older than I understood during the Battle of New York and the “I want a bow” moment is well into her training. I confess that kids of any age between “toddler” and “just got their driver’s license” look pretty indistinguishable to me. We see some medals and such in the first shot but there is also a partially visible photo of what appears to be a woman doing a handstand, and I reckoned these were hints as to Eleanor’s past, and she is pressuring Kate into following her footsteps.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:27 AM on November 25, 2021
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:27 AM on November 25, 2021
She looks more like 8 or 9 in the first scene. Lots of kids do karate and stuff at five.
posted by emjaybee at 6:33 AM on November 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 6:33 AM on November 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I was sold on the series from the initial flashback to the 2012 Battle of New York. There's a ton of little stories that are possible in the MCU, but we rarely see them, so anytime one pops up I'm there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:47 AM on November 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:47 AM on November 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
It wasn't the length of draw that bothered me. That's about what I was "taught" --take it pretty much back to the ear with the draw hand in line with the eye. It was the actual holding of the string right against the side of the head to the point she was practically leaning her cheek on it. That's what gave me shivers. I know how much I roughed up the inside of my bow-holding forearm as the string skimmed along it. (Even for the piddling amount of target practice I was doing, I made sure I got myself a leather arm guard with fine metal rods in it). Maybe a pro wouldn't have the same need of it, but as a totally clueless novice newbie, I liked the idea of keeping my skin in one piece, thank-you very much.
Also, I forgot to mention it in my original post, but boy, was that some hip action from singing-and-dancing Cap.
posted by sardonyx at 9:38 AM on November 25, 2021
Also, I forgot to mention it in my original post, but boy, was that some hip action from singing-and-dancing Cap.
posted by sardonyx at 9:38 AM on November 25, 2021
I haven’t read the Fraction books, so I may will surely miss some references as the season proceeds, but I find myself drawn back to the curious moment where the camera lingers on the plaque for the Stane bell/clock tower. Stane was of course the villain in Iron Man, but he was played by Jeff Bridges. Bridges also was the lead in Hailee Steinfeld’s debut feature, True Grit. I almost feel like there is a joke here I am not quite putting together.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:08 AM on November 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:08 AM on November 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
It was probably building a bridge to future sequence!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:33 AM on November 25, 2021
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:33 AM on November 25, 2021
I came in with pretty low expectations—I've never had much interest in Hawkeye—but had a lot of trouble with the first couple of episodes, especially the first. The writing was really sloppy, with some fairly ham-fisted exposition (there was one line referencing Kate winning something or other when she was 15 that especially stuck out). The dialogue with his family at dinner felt incredibly forced, but maybe it was intentional? They're all trying really hard because it's his first Christmas in a while, but it came across as incredibly wooden to me. I also didn't quite get how Pizza Dog came to be a random stray Kate was talking to for some reason to randomly chomping on the leg of one of the Tracksuit Mafia crew, either. I dunno--it felt really clunky, and didn't pose strong enough questions to grip me the way that WandaVision or Loki did, or even TFAWS, for that matter.
There seems to be some kind of theme going on to do with Hawkeye being inspirational to people in spite of not having a personal brand, which could be interesting. I'm sure the LARPers will show up again—one of them got a name, after all.
Highlights were definitely Rogers: The Musical and the Tracksuit Mafia. I'll probably keep watching to see where it goes, at least for a few more episodes, but mostly because I'm more intrigued by some of the rumours I've heard (and for the bros).
posted by synecdoche at 1:32 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
There seems to be some kind of theme going on to do with Hawkeye being inspirational to people in spite of not having a personal brand, which could be interesting. I'm sure the LARPers will show up again—one of them got a name, after all.
Highlights were definitely Rogers: The Musical and the Tracksuit Mafia. I'll probably keep watching to see where it goes, at least for a few more episodes, but mostly because I'm more intrigued by some of the rumours I've heard (and for the bros).
posted by synecdoche at 1:32 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Admittedly, I'm not a Clint fan (was watching for HS), but the first two eps felt pretty sloppy and mechanical to me. Scripts really needed some tightening.
posted by praemunire at 3:57 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 3:57 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm kind of in, but: some of the Kate/Clint banter really made me think "Only Murders In The Building already did this but better."
(Also, another bell-fall skeptic here: an arrow doesn't have *that* much kinetic energy. Yes yes: it's necessary for it to progressively fail for dramatic and comedic effect.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:59 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
(Also, another bell-fall skeptic here: an arrow doesn't have *that* much kinetic energy. Yes yes: it's necessary for it to progressively fail for dramatic and comedic effect.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:59 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Who was the white lab coat guy supposed to be in Rogers!?
I'd guess Erik Selvig?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:02 PM on November 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'd guess Erik Selvig?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:02 PM on November 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh god no, the arrow truthers have moved in.😂
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:31 PM on November 25, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:31 PM on November 25, 2021 [17 favorites]
There are no trick arrows, Brandon.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:46 PM on November 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:46 PM on November 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
If the clock tower was that fragile she probably did a service by triggering the collapse at night when it wouldn't kill anyone.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:24 PM on November 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:24 PM on November 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
Selvig never even crossed my mind. Did he even wear a lab coat? I thought maybe he was supposed to be a random New Yorker, but he seems too prominent for that.
posted by sardonyx at 7:05 PM on November 25, 2021
posted by sardonyx at 7:05 PM on November 25, 2021
Through no real fault of anyone's, I was constantly frustrated by Jack not being played by Paul F. Tompkins.
In some parallel universe, this role is Steven Toast’s big American break.
posted by MrBadExample at 11:02 PM on November 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
In some parallel universe, this role is Steven Toast’s big American break.
posted by MrBadExample at 11:02 PM on November 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
Maybe the bell in the clock tower wasn’t rung anymore because of being in some state of structural disrepair, and that’s why ringing it was a challenge, and also why it broke when she rang it.
Tired Arrow Dad is the best version of MCU Hawkeye.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:43 AM on November 26, 2021 [11 favorites]
Tired Arrow Dad is the best version of MCU Hawkeye.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:43 AM on November 26, 2021 [11 favorites]
Someone on historical-weapons-YouTube was pointing out that movies and TV often treat bows as if they were guns. So actors are always having long conversations with a drawn bow pointed at someone, or even covering a prisoner with a drawn bow, and somehow their arms never get tired.
(However strong you are it should be hard to keep a war bow drawn because you would choose a bow to match your strength).
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:09 AM on November 26, 2021
(However strong you are it should be hard to keep a war bow drawn because you would choose a bow to match your strength).
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:09 AM on November 26, 2021
Forget the arrow truthers, I need to hear from the LARP truthers.
posted by emjaybee at 6:22 AM on November 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 6:22 AM on November 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Thinking about it more - I really dislike that they made Clint a tired dad that wants to keep Kate out of trouble. In the Fraction/Aja comics, Clint's a disaster, but one of his best qualities is that he's wholeheartedly supportive of Kate. Kate's spoiled, Kate thinks she knows more than she actually does - but she's actually got some of her shit together and Clint takes her seriously from pretty much the start. And like, having a young woman being treated like she's competent is such a breath of fresh air, it makes me inclined to forgive a lot of comic Clint's disaster-ness. MCU Clint is less of a disaster, but also the Kate and Clint dynamic feels a lot less exciting.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:02 AM on November 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 8:02 AM on November 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
In the Fraction series he's already had the scenes where he’s learned that Kate is up to the task in other books. Here we have to start the interaction from scratch. If we end the series with him still not just trying to get her to give up the heroics then I’ll be annoyed.
posted by Karmakaze at 11:49 AM on November 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Karmakaze at 11:49 AM on November 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Clint having PTSD works, along with the lasting physical injury & disability of hearing loss. I also really appreciate the "Thank You For Your Service" dissonance. That sort of stuff is usually meant in a positive way, but for a lot of people in that kind of position (not just military vets), it can range from awkwardness and cringe to a real gut-punch. They're doing a really good job of that with Clint here. Yes, people want to say something nice, but it can also just put all the trauma and complications right back in the individual's lap while they're trying to move on.
Hailee Steinfeld is absolutely wonderful. I'm so happy with practically every moment she's on screen.
As for the musical, I... in hindsight, I realize it was unreasonable of me to expect something I'd actually like and call "good." It 100% hits the mark of cheesy cringe they were clearly shooting for, so there's that. I'm not saying it's poorly done. But I think "Agatha All Along" spoiled me and left me expecting a bop when it was never meant to be anything of that caliber.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:25 PM on November 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Hailee Steinfeld is absolutely wonderful. I'm so happy with practically every moment she's on screen.
As for the musical, I... in hindsight, I realize it was unreasonable of me to expect something I'd actually like and call "good." It 100% hits the mark of cheesy cringe they were clearly shooting for, so there's that. I'm not saying it's poorly done. But I think "Agatha All Along" spoiled me and left me expecting a bop when it was never meant to be anything of that caliber.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:25 PM on November 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Forget the arrow truthers, I need to hear from the LARP truthers.
Hi, I may or may not have LARPed for over 20 years. I'm fine with the alien invasion and the Tracksuit Mafia but my suspension of disbelief cracked at the notion of holding a major LARPing event five or six days before Christmas. :) That's just a scheduling & attendance nightmare. And I have no idea how hard it would be to get space for an all-day thing in Central Park at any time of year.
Also, they obviously did NOT want us to think about their combat rules. One hit to the torso and you're dead? What's the point of wearing armor? Was that their way of telling him he should've brought a costume rather than borrowing one? ("Oh yeah, they will charge you." That line WORKED.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:32 PM on November 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
Hi, I may or may not have LARPed for over 20 years. I'm fine with the alien invasion and the Tracksuit Mafia but my suspension of disbelief cracked at the notion of holding a major LARPing event five or six days before Christmas. :) That's just a scheduling & attendance nightmare. And I have no idea how hard it would be to get space for an all-day thing in Central Park at any time of year.
Also, they obviously did NOT want us to think about their combat rules. One hit to the torso and you're dead? What's the point of wearing armor? Was that their way of telling him he should've brought a costume rather than borrowing one? ("Oh yeah, they will charge you." That line WORKED.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:32 PM on November 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
There are a lot of comically large NYC apartments/hotel suites in this show.
I love Lucky, aka Pizza Dog, and will suspend any amount of real estate/archery/LARP disbelief necessary as long as he has a happy Christmas.
Why did the Bartons go to that musical though, none of them seemed even remotely interested.
posted by the primroses were over at 8:47 PM on November 26, 2021
I love Lucky, aka Pizza Dog, and will suspend any amount of real estate/archery/LARP disbelief necessary as long as he has a happy Christmas.
Why did the Bartons go to that musical though, none of them seemed even remotely interested.
posted by the primroses were over at 8:47 PM on November 26, 2021
> perhaps Kate is older than I understood during the Battle of New York and the “I want a bow” moment is well into her training.
It is. When we see her bedroom the first time, she has her JOAD pins hanging on the wall, and she's earned at least six of them. (As I remember it it's youth pins on the adult lanyard, but at least they gave her the barebow one.)
> the actual holding of the string right against the side of the head to the point she was practically leaning her cheek on it
You anchor to the corner of your mouth, so yes, the string is right there, at least in the style of archery she's doing. My internet is conking out so I can't rewatch it, but there was nothing about her anchor that bothered me. She even had a good release! Her form wasn't perfect, but it was much better than I expected.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:01 PM on November 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
It is. When we see her bedroom the first time, she has her JOAD pins hanging on the wall, and she's earned at least six of them. (As I remember it it's youth pins on the adult lanyard, but at least they gave her the barebow one.)
> the actual holding of the string right against the side of the head to the point she was practically leaning her cheek on it
You anchor to the corner of your mouth, so yes, the string is right there, at least in the style of archery she's doing. My internet is conking out so I can't rewatch it, but there was nothing about her anchor that bothered me. She even had a good release! Her form wasn't perfect, but it was much better than I expected.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:01 PM on November 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'd been watching some of Mitchell & Webb's old Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit sketches when I came across this thread, and now I keep imagining them recast with Thor and Hawkeye.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:38 AM on November 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 12:38 AM on November 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
I don’t think the LARP was in Central Park; I think it was the Cloisters, which does host a Renaissance Fair on occasion. I agree with the LARP right before Christmas. Or local monthly boffer LARP is doing next weekend for December. I figured the armor was the noob costume for people without their own garb, hence the X on the chest. And the one hit may have been a level zero thing because we did see people reacting to wounding strikes in the background.
Also I noticed on rewatch that Kate’s archery club friend is named Greer. I wonder if they’re setting up Tigra.
posted by Karmakaze at 9:25 AM on November 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also I noticed on rewatch that Kate’s archery club friend is named Greer. I wonder if they’re setting up Tigra.
posted by Karmakaze at 9:25 AM on November 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
But, are they going to do a Pizza Dog episode? An entire episode sans dialog?
posted by Troupe of trained rats at 11:17 AM on November 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Troupe of trained rats at 11:17 AM on November 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
And one that's mostly sign language? I guess not; they've changed the timeline a bit re his deafness, from the Fraction & Aja books.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:18 PM on November 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:18 PM on November 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Given that Clint is wearing hearing aids and the new villain at the end of ep 2 is deaf, I could imagine a dialogue free episode or major sequence.
posted by crossoverman at 7:04 PM on November 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 7:04 PM on November 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Something else, that literally just occurred to me in the shower: right before Clint gets taken by the Bros, he calls his wife, who not only seems familiar with the "catch and release" gambit, but is aware that it was a favorite of Nat's, aka Black Widow--it is, in fact, what Nat's doing when we first see her in the first Avengers movie. Isn't that interesting.
Hmm, Adrianne Palicki is busy, so is this their very very secret Mockingbird recasting entrance into the MCU? Probably not. (Still holding out for a Lance and Bobbi reunion)
Tracksuit Mafia was great, bro.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 3:46 PM on November 28, 2021
Hmm, Adrianne Palicki is busy, so is this their very very secret Mockingbird recasting entrance into the MCU? Probably not. (Still holding out for a Lance and Bobbi reunion)
Tracksuit Mafia was great, bro.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 3:46 PM on November 28, 2021
The comic book timeline on Hawkeye’s deafness is too complex to put in a show like this because as with any aspect of a long-standing character in comics, the continuity is an incredible tangle. [nutshell version: in a 1983 plotline a villain with sound based mind control threatened the heroic community and Clint deliberately deafened himself so he could stop the villain. More recently a Marvel editor thought having a disability was unbecoming of an Avenger and had his hearing damage undone by deus ex machina. A lot of people had issues with both the change and the editorial reason for the change. Fraction/Aja were presumably among them and undid the undoing about halfway through the run.] Given that MCU heroes age with their actors as opposed to all comic book heroes being in some nebulous teenage or thirty-something state I’m ok with bypassing all that and just handwaving it as wear and tear.
It looks like Kate’s conveniently purple workout gear has her superhero look almost in place. I wonder how they going to get Clint into the version of his suit we’ve seen in the promos. For that matter did he even bring a bow on his trip? So far he’s only done hand to hand and thrown objects.
posted by Karmakaze at 6:21 PM on November 28, 2021
It looks like Kate’s conveniently purple workout gear has her superhero look almost in place. I wonder how they going to get Clint into the version of his suit we’ve seen in the promos. For that matter did he even bring a bow on his trip? So far he’s only done hand to hand and thrown objects.
posted by Karmakaze at 6:21 PM on November 28, 2021
I almost feel like there is a joke here I am not quite putting together.
Tony Stark put that joke together in a CAVE! From a BOX of SCRAPS!
posted by gauche at 7:21 PM on November 28, 2021 [18 favorites]
Tony Stark put that joke together in a CAVE! From a BOX of SCRAPS!
posted by gauche at 7:21 PM on November 28, 2021 [18 favorites]
> Oh god no, the arrow truthers have moved in
I'm not even going to touch on the arrows but if anyone wants to talk brace height I'm here for it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:58 AM on November 29, 2021
I'm not even going to touch on the arrows but if anyone wants to talk brace height I'm here for it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:58 AM on November 29, 2021
The scene where Kate manages to extricate herself from dealing with the manager by feigning offense that he doesn't remember her name was a very, very good joke, one that I'm not sure would have played as well even as little as a year ago. Today, it just seems of a piece with the low-unemployment nascent-labor-movement-rebirth moment that we're in.
posted by Ipsifendus at 1:57 PM on November 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Ipsifendus at 1:57 PM on November 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I love the Fraction/Aja run, and actually got very fond of the MCU Hawkeye, so I was definitely looking forward to this. I did find the first episode a little stilted, which is weird considering everybody involved are good actors and usually the writing is decent-to-very-good on these shows. But things loosened up a bit into and by the end of the second episode, so I'm hopeful for the rest of the run.
posted by PussKillian at 2:15 PM on November 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by PussKillian at 2:15 PM on November 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Bro. They were good episodes, bro.
posted by feckless at 5:01 PM on November 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by feckless at 5:01 PM on November 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
> As for the musical, I... in hindsight, I realize it was unreasonable of me to expect something I'd actually like and call "good." It 100% hits the mark of cheesy cringe they were clearly shooting for, so there's that.
Den of Geek delved into "Rogers: The Musical" a bit - "It's not... great. ... But it's also not terrible!" - and the director had worked on "Documentary Now": "I think I tapped into my specialty of making something 'not too good, not too bad.'"
At some point, I might tire of "bro" jokes, but not today.
Bro. Brobrobrobro.
posted by Pronoiac at 8:02 PM on December 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Den of Geek delved into "Rogers: The Musical" a bit - "It's not... great. ... But it's also not terrible!" - and the director had worked on "Documentary Now": "I think I tapped into my specialty of making something 'not too good, not too bad.'"
At some point, I might tire of "bro" jokes, but not today.
Bro. Brobrobrobro.
posted by Pronoiac at 8:02 PM on December 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
The age difference between the two older kids and the younger one is pretty big. Was the youngest boy snapped? I can't remember?
posted by fiercekitten at 5:07 PM on December 3, 2021
posted by fiercekitten at 5:07 PM on December 3, 2021
Here's the opening scene of Endgame, where the family is snapped.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:25 PM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:25 PM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sweet beans! goes to show how much I cared about Endgame.
posted by fiercekitten at 8:15 AM on December 4, 2021
posted by fiercekitten at 8:15 AM on December 4, 2021
Why did the Bartons go to that musical though, none of them seemed even remotely interested.
A good chunk of Broadway audiences are tourists who only turn up because seeing a show is just kind of something you're supposed to do if you visit New York, like seeing the Emire State Building. Whether you have ever been a theater fan or not, it's just sort of perceived to be A Thing To Do.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:50 AM on December 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
A good chunk of Broadway audiences are tourists who only turn up because seeing a show is just kind of something you're supposed to do if you visit New York, like seeing the Emire State Building. Whether you have ever been a theater fan or not, it's just sort of perceived to be A Thing To Do.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:50 AM on December 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Finally caught the first two eps. I loved the Fraction book, which is kind of the only reason I started this. I am disappoint. I'll give it some time to cohere, but something about this whole thing feels off. Like I don't really know what the show is about.
Not much to say about the Broadway musical except that I really wish that they had put some genuine stars in there, playing the up-and-coming actors. It would have been a nice parallel to Matt Damon et al playing the Odin family in the play on Asgard. Or maybe Chris Evans' little brother could have played Cap.
I find it very, very hard to believe that a person in NYC wearing a balaclava and a hood is such a rare occurrence that a sighting of one would put the whole underworld after them. So the entire quest to get the suit back seems weird. (That said, I did dig the whole "battle" to get to the one LARPer.)
Speaking of fights, oof Hailey Stanfield has so clearly not done enough training. Any fight that is in the dark and includes both strobe lights AND shit-tons of quick cuts is pretty obviously hiding a bad fight. No sense of choreography, no sense of geography w/r/t where people are in their environment, no wide shots to establish that geography (which suggests budget issues,) those fights all just looked like ass.
Also not super keen on Kate's complete lack of subtlety with her mom and stepdad. Maybe it's just me but if you suspect that your mom's new beau just MURDERED HIS OWN FATHER (I think it was his father?) WITH A SWORD, then challenging him to a swordfight, and calling him out the way she did with the whole fencing bit, and literally accusing him of nefarious deeds was kind of awkward, and also the second he was on screen it was pretty obvious he was going to be the villain. I dunno, that whole bit seemed off. After the fencing bit I thought "man she is going to have to work on her spy skills because she can't play it cool to save her life."
I DID like the concept of each episode covering one day. They should add titles: FIVE DAYS TIL XMAS. And I really think that they need to play that up: it doesn't matter what kind of heroics Clint does in NYC, if he doesn't make it home for Christmas, then he has failed. This is the MCU's Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. Everything that happens in NYC is just a distraction, getting home is winning. (That and obviously the friends we make along the way, which is why I'm betting a shiny nickel that Kate and Pizza Dog come home with him.)
Anyway, here's hoping it holds onto the good stuff, and figures out what it wants to be. I'm a bit anxious about that, considering we're already 1/3rd of the way through the show, but hey, there's always hope.
posted by nushustu at 6:01 AM on December 9, 2021
Not much to say about the Broadway musical except that I really wish that they had put some genuine stars in there, playing the up-and-coming actors. It would have been a nice parallel to Matt Damon et al playing the Odin family in the play on Asgard. Or maybe Chris Evans' little brother could have played Cap.
I find it very, very hard to believe that a person in NYC wearing a balaclava and a hood is such a rare occurrence that a sighting of one would put the whole underworld after them. So the entire quest to get the suit back seems weird. (That said, I did dig the whole "battle" to get to the one LARPer.)
Speaking of fights, oof Hailey Stanfield has so clearly not done enough training. Any fight that is in the dark and includes both strobe lights AND shit-tons of quick cuts is pretty obviously hiding a bad fight. No sense of choreography, no sense of geography w/r/t where people are in their environment, no wide shots to establish that geography (which suggests budget issues,) those fights all just looked like ass.
Also not super keen on Kate's complete lack of subtlety with her mom and stepdad. Maybe it's just me but if you suspect that your mom's new beau just MURDERED HIS OWN FATHER (I think it was his father?) WITH A SWORD, then challenging him to a swordfight, and calling him out the way she did with the whole fencing bit, and literally accusing him of nefarious deeds was kind of awkward, and also the second he was on screen it was pretty obvious he was going to be the villain. I dunno, that whole bit seemed off. After the fencing bit I thought "man she is going to have to work on her spy skills because she can't play it cool to save her life."
I DID like the concept of each episode covering one day. They should add titles: FIVE DAYS TIL XMAS. And I really think that they need to play that up: it doesn't matter what kind of heroics Clint does in NYC, if he doesn't make it home for Christmas, then he has failed. This is the MCU's Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. Everything that happens in NYC is just a distraction, getting home is winning. (That and obviously the friends we make along the way, which is why I'm betting a shiny nickel that Kate and Pizza Dog come home with him.)
Anyway, here's hoping it holds onto the good stuff, and figures out what it wants to be. I'm a bit anxious about that, considering we're already 1/3rd of the way through the show, but hey, there's always hope.
posted by nushustu at 6:01 AM on December 9, 2021
I still think Lin-Manuel Miranda had a fantastic reaction to the whole ROGERS: THE MUSICAL thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:18 PM on December 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:18 PM on December 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
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I enjoyed this so far, though i think Vera Farmiga's casting in itself feels like a spoiler. What i need to find out for myself is the production background because did the whole Fraction/Aja vibe came on from the very beginning or only after Fraction was finally connected to the show via Seth Meyers (not through Disney/Marvel's extra efforts)? Because the amount of work this show is doing to standardize/cohere MCU!Hawkeye to fit that whole canon is, uh, interesting.
Still, Kate Bishop is getting a hell of an origin story for this 'verse. Can't be mad about that.
posted by cendawanita at 7:22 AM on November 24, 2021