Hawkeye: Echoes
December 1, 2021 6:53 AM - Season 1, Episode 3 - Subscribe

Maya Lopez seeks answers about Ronin. Kate and Clint attempt to escape from the Tracksuit Mafia. Pizza Dog gets walkies. And what does all of this have to do with the Duquesne murder?
posted by 1970s Antihero (59 comments total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
 
A little sad that Boomerang Arrow doesn't show up. Boomerang: They didn't respect it.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:02 AM on December 1, 2021 [2 favorites]


They swapped out the boomerang arrow for the plunger arrow for that story beat. And ok, I got a laugh out of the Pym particle arrow. And USB arrow - we missed you.
posted by Karmakaze at 8:37 AM on December 1, 2021


The trick arrows cracked me up. And "Aw man, the Challenger got destroyed anyway."

There's been some pondering if there was going to be an all-silence/ASL episode. Well, this one does that partially, I guess?

Kate continues to crack me up, especially with her purple suit makeover and Hawkeye being all "My wife would divorce me if I wore that." And her casual conversation about nearly shooting her mom's fiance in the face or whatever it was. I wish I'd taken notes while watching it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:50 AM on December 1, 2021 [4 favorites]


Is it just me or has every episode gone by quickly? It’ll reach the end and I’ll look up from being engrossed in the story and mumbling “More please”
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:56 AM on December 1, 2021 [8 favorites]


Best episode so far. Loved the action and Alaqua Cox is amazing.
posted by Pendragon at 10:42 AM on December 1, 2021 [1 favorite]


And that mysterious uncle... His hand sure looked a lot like a certain Spider-man/Daredevil character... in his black suit...
posted by Pendragon at 10:45 AM on December 1, 2021 [3 favorites]


There was a certain way that Uncle laughed that sounded familiar, yes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:39 PM on December 1, 2021 [1 favorite]


And that the auto shop was "Fat Man's".... I'm not saying it was... but it totally was.
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:59 PM on December 1, 2021 [3 favorites]


This one was so much fun. I love that they put the classic muscle car in there, even if Clint didn't drive it (he had a practical reason, bro!). The lopsided conversation on the subway was delightful, and I like that Clint can see Kate's talent and appreciate it. A lot of fans have been waiting for so long to see them make use of Clint's hearing situation and of course, Marvel never did in the movies (they were too busy giving him a surprise family, I guess), so it's wonderful to see that being a substantial part of the story.

Zahn McClarnan! That was a lovely surprise, I really like him. Can't wait to see where this is going, and how they deal with the things Clint did during the Snapture. This is by far my favorite of the shows so far, and that surprises me since Bucky and Sam are my beloveds. But they've done a great job of capturing the Fraction/Aja comics with a nod toward classic Hawkeye (that costume drawing omg!). (Now if Disney would only pay them for their work, the fuckers.)
posted by kitten kaboodle at 2:37 PM on December 1, 2021 [5 favorites]


After finishing the episode I keep thinking of the mirror thing with Kate and Maya - both motivated by Clint. One by his best and one by his worst. Echoes of Clint's actions?
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:17 PM on December 1, 2021 [5 favorites]


I am such a fan of platonic older men/younger women pairings in superhero situations so I am loving Clint and Kate. Also, this show has made me like Clint/Jeremy Renner, which is a thing.

This was fun. I like Maya/Echo a lot. I wish they weren't teasing Kingpin in this way. Either Vincent D'Onofrio is going to be in this show, or Kingpin is with another actor or not at all, but I'm tired of the games. I get that's part of the fun for people but I just find it exhausting in a culture where someone playing someone is somehow a "spoiler."
posted by edencosmic at 3:54 PM on December 1, 2021 [4 favorites]


If that wasn't D'Onofrio's laugh, then someone did a fantastic job mimicking it.
posted by drewbage1847 at 4:06 PM on December 1, 2021 [4 favorites]


Whoever's been saying this might be the best MCU series yet* (and i too, am a Bucky and Sam fan), i think you should begin preparing to collect your winnings.

*As a total story
posted by cendawanita at 6:16 PM on December 1, 2021


A lot of fans have been waiting for so long to see them make use of Clint's hearing situation and of course, Marvel never did in the movies (they were too busy giving him a surprise family, I guess)

So, a lot of the Avengers' setup in the MCU was taken from The Ultimates, which was the version of the Avengers in Marvel's "Ultimate" comic book universe (i.e. an alternate universe where they could do "updated", ultra-edgy versions of the legacy characters). That's where they had Hawkeye with a family, which he never really had in the legacy continuity. (He did have a relationship/marriage for a while in the legacy continuity with Bobbi Morse, aka Mockingbird, who appeared in the MCU in Agents of Shield. As far as I know, they've never met in the MCU, which made me wonder if they were setting up his wife in this series to have been with SHIELD or someone else, given her knowledge of his and Black Widow's tactics.)

Anyway. Great ep, loved the return of the USB arrow and the Pym arrow, and of course Echo. I also wondered about the uncle, and am curious about her arc within this series, given what's been announced for her character. I am also wondering if the last scene will be a fight, a reunion of sorts, or both.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:48 PM on December 1, 2021 [3 favorites]


Get your elbow down, Kate! Pull with your back, not your bicep!

(Although that actually is a problem Clint has in the comics — there’s a great panel where he’s giving himself a hard time over his form, including his elbow.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:52 PM on December 1, 2021 [2 favorites]


"Trust a Bro Moving Company" lmao
posted by BungaDunga at 9:13 PM on December 1, 2021 [16 favorites]


I'm still sore from all the misdirects in Wandavision, and the X-Men clues that amounted to nothing but damn it, panels straight out of Daredevil comics, Fat Man Motors, the heavy red lighting, the fight in a boxing gym, the black suit, the spot-on sinister D'onofrio chuckle, the fucking cufflinks!!
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:25 PM on December 1, 2021 [4 favorites]


> Best episode so far. Loved the action and Alaqua Cox is amazing.

(Though I keep catching glimpses of Stephanie Beatriz / Rosa Diaz out of the corner of my eye.)
posted by Pronoiac at 9:36 PM on December 1, 2021 [6 favorites]


Still an enjoyable ride! I thought it interesting that Kate knew a random lady in Chinatown who could fix Clint's hearing aid.
posted by emjaybee at 9:59 PM on December 1, 2021 [2 favorites]


Liked this episode a lot! Did something with the deafness angle. Liked the actions scenes. The comedy with the trick arrows was great.

I thought the comedy in the first two episodes was a bit laborious. Hopefully we won't have so much of minor characters acting pointlessly stupid/obstructive and the protagonists making exasperated faces in future.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:32 AM on December 2, 2021


The comedy with the trick arrows was great.

I just re-read the Fraction/Aja books this week. In issue #3, Kate does the driving while Clint is firing arrows, and he complains about the ones she's handing him. The joke doesn't quite work, because Clint would know his own arrows better than anyone, right?

So yeah, this was better! Kate grabbing arrows not knowing what they are makes the joke work better, as well as giving her some time to shine as an archer.

I also really loved the small moment with Pizza Dog and he does a big doggo smile at being called "Pizza Dog." <3

The Pym arrow making the other arrow into GIANT ARROW was great, too.

Really fun episode. MOAR!
posted by Fleebnork at 4:43 AM on December 2, 2021 [11 favorites]


Not sure why, but this series is shaping up to be my favorite out of the MCU so far. Mostly balance between seriousness, humor, plot, characterization, and action has been just about perfect so far.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:00 AM on December 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


More posters for Rogers: The Musical. What are the odds that a big final action scene occurs in the theatre while the production is going on? I'm starting to think they're heading into sure-bet territory.
posted by sardonyx at 7:16 AM on December 2, 2021 [7 favorites]


Hawkeye posing as Musical!Hawkeye long enough to shoot a trick arrow that thwarts the baddies?

Yes please!
posted by emjaybee at 7:43 AM on December 2, 2021 [5 favorites]


I was thinking more dancing Cap knocking out low-level Bro with his shield and swivel and thrust hip action. But I'll take your version, too!
posted by sardonyx at 7:51 AM on December 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


I also really loved the small moment with Pizza Dog and he does a big doggo smile at being called "Pizza Dog."

Of course he's happy. Someone said the word 'pizza'!
posted by Karmakaze at 9:23 AM on December 2, 2021 [6 favorites]


One moment of joy for me: Kate sketches the classic Don Heck costume for Hawkeye and Clint scoffs at it. It's very much not conducive to being a ghost! But the "H" is for Hawkeye!

The scene where Kate translates for Clint was some of the best work of any MCU series, just really heart-rending stuff. Curious if that notepad text got rewritten via CGI for other languages...
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:55 AM on December 2, 2021 [9 favorites]


In comics, you know the actual terrible things either won't happen or can be undone. No one stays dead except Uncle Ben. But small tragedies happen all the time as character building moments or to drive the plot. Given that, I'm more concerned about Clint making it home for Christmas than I was about Thanos.
posted by Gary at 11:16 AM on December 2, 2021 [12 favorites]


I'll be happy as long as:
- Clint gets home for Christmas (probably with Kate in tow)
- Lucky doesn't get hurt by Kazi.
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:06 PM on December 2, 2021 [5 favorites]


So everyone is running around looking for Ronin. Who actually knows that Clint was Ronin? Other than Natasha, that is.

My other thought is that as charming as Clint is in this, and he's clearly no longer a cold-blooded killer, has he ever attempted to deal with his murderous past? Because it looks like he just walked away from it without actually trying to make up for it.

Which makes his situation not redemption, but denial.

I'm not demanding he admit it, and beg forgiveness, but I do feel like a redemption arc requires more than just feeling bad about what you did. Action is required.
posted by suelac at 7:28 PM on December 2, 2021 [6 favorites]


When Clint was freed of all work and family obligations he was able to do whatever he wanted, which was to up close and personally kill a whole shit ton of guys with foreign accents. Will he make it home for Christmas?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:38 PM on December 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


> A little sad that Boomerang Arrow doesn't show up. Boomerang: They didn't respect it.

Don't worry, I'm sure it'll come back around
posted by Pronoiac at 9:02 PM on December 2, 2021 [17 favorites]


Where is the bit folks are talking about where we get a glimpse of the uncle?
posted by kokaku at 10:22 AM on December 3, 2021


After Maya wins the karaoke fight, her dad speaks to her, then uncle visits, about five minutes in.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:33 AM on December 3, 2021


Why didn’t Clint just say to his kid “sorry, my hearing aid battery died, can we text?”
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:37 AM on December 3, 2021


His youngest probably isn't old enough to read and write very well.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:50 AM on December 3, 2021 [3 favorites]


I thought Clint did try to say something about texting? I can't go check the episode at the moment. (But also, yeah, youngest one may not be able to get that.)
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:50 PM on December 3, 2021


I thought Clint did try to say something about texting?

He thought it was his wife at first, so I think he did say something about not being able to talk and they should text instead. That's when Kate walked over with the "Little Boy" sign
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 3:15 PM on December 3, 2021 [7 favorites]


I thought they were holding back the reveal that Jack was Maya’s “uncle”.
posted by jimw at 7:22 PM on December 3, 2021


After Maya wins the karaoke fight

Did she sing You’re the Best Around?
posted by snofoam at 4:22 AM on December 4, 2021 [2 favorites]


Was not all that excited about this series and I'm really loving it. That fight scene in the toy store was better than 90% of the MCU film fights; the choreography was so inventive and fun.
posted by octothorpe at 5:55 AM on December 4, 2021 [2 favorites]


After Maya wins the karaoke fight

My bad, it was before the fight, and Uncle appeared to take her home after the fight.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on December 4, 2021


karaoke fight

They were both well versed in technique, but she really chorused her opponent in the end.
posted by snofoam at 6:41 AM on December 4, 2021 [2 favorites]


Trick arrows were fun, phone call with son was touching, but why am I not supposed to side with Maya's quest for vengeance against the vigilante who murdered Zahn McClarnon? I mean, maybe Clint is going to actually do some sort of penance in the next 3 episodes and not just be kinda mopey about his regrets, but so far...

Count me in as someone confused by why Kate knows an emergency audiologist. I guess she could be an electronics expert rather than a hearing aid expert, but I thought Kate calls her doc?
posted by the primroses were over at 8:27 AM on December 4, 2021 [3 favorites]


...but why am I not supposed to side with Maya's quest for vengeance against the vigilante who murdered Zahn McClarnon? I mean, maybe Clint is going to actually do some sort of penance in the next 3 episodes and not just be kinda mopey about his regrets, but so far...

It's absolutely fine to side with Maya's quest for vengeance, but I see it as multi-sided coin (which the MCU may or may not go deep on in). Was her dad a criminal and doing shady stuff that makes his killing somewhat understandable? Is Clint sorry about that now and if so, what sort of amends can he make. And there's still the question of whether Clint actually killed Maya's dad.

Count me in as someone confused by why Kate knows an emergency audiologist.

In any sort of neighborhood, you're gonna know certain people who can do certain things. We're not even talking shady stuff. If you know the woman down the street is a doctor, you might approach them with a emergency.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 AM on December 4, 2021 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I'll be interested to see where the Ronin thing goes. I'm just worried in 6 episodes they aren't going to have enough room to deal with the complications they're raising (in that, if they do go with "well, these particular vigilante acts were done by not-Clint" and sort of ignore his own vigilante phase, that is going to be unsatisfactory for me as a viewer).

To be clear, because I realize my initial comment is fairly critical, I did enjoy this episode. Bro who gave his girlfriend Imagine Dragon tickets because he wanted to see Imagine Dragons got some solid advice from Kate!
posted by the primroses were over at 9:52 AM on December 4, 2021 [2 favorites]


This is Disney, so they're never going to do the sort of deep dive that I'd love to see, like how religion is faring now that Norse gods are real and running around. Or what is was like in the first week after the snap.

As to Clint they're probably not gonna dive too deep into him breaking the law by executing people, 'cause hey, they were bad guys anyway! But there will probably be some sort of confrontation about him being Ronin and committing those crimes and then we'll never hear about it again.

This isn't a slam per se, but I'd love to see a really meaty deep dive on the after effects of the Snap. But that's probably too intense for the MCU.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:27 AM on December 4, 2021 [1 favorite]


> I'd love to see a really meaty deep dive on the after effects of the Snap.

It's what I most want to see from Marvel. I presume there are graphic novels that cover it, but I want a TV series.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:58 PM on December 4, 2021


I am such a fan of platonic older men/younger women pairings in superhero situations

On the subway I realized that I had absolutely zero fear that there was going to be some creepy romantic angle. I mean, it hadn't even crossed my mind. I have complaints about the MCU house style but I'm glad that's a trope that they've made foreign to their aesthetic. (Well, I mean technically there was probably a big age gap between Thor and Jane Foster, but you get my point.)

has he ever attempted to deal with his murderous past? Because it looks like he just walked away from it without actually trying to make up for it.

Which makes his situation not redemption, but denial.


I'd be quite happy to assume that there was a lot that happened in the years off screen and get a story that isn't a hamfisted attempt to make yet another superhero story about "redemption." Just speaking for myself, it's something I've seen so many people take a whack at.

I'd be perfectly happy if the character development focused on Kate Bishop and Clint stayed in a mentor role.
posted by mark k at 11:02 PM on December 4, 2021 [5 favorites]


On rewatch, Ronin absolutely killed Maya's dad. So yeah, those two have a lot to talk about.

Clinton's attitude and body language when Maya was questioning him in the present day also seemed to indicate that he had done the deed. This is interesting to me because I didn't think Disney would go very deep in squaring Hawkeye's past deeds, figured someone else else would have killed dead. But no, Ronin is shown stabbing Maya's twice.

So Hawkear squaring those past deeds while in front of the hero worshipping Kate could be very interesting and tricky.

I'm somewhat ambivalent what Clint did. Yeah, going on a murderous rampage isn't a great coping mechanism. But he did target known criminals, so I'm not crying too much about it. But he should be punished, somehow, right? He doesn't need to be rehabilitated and there's definitely guilt over what he did. Keeping him from his unsnapped family doesn't seem like a great idea.

Lots of interesting questions with no clear cut answers on either how to "punish" Clint and who could actually do the punishing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:41 AM on December 5, 2021 [1 favorite]


I am anti violence and vigilante justice in real life, but if I were to wave it away in a fictional setting, I would claim that when half the people disappeared traditional law and order became overwhelmed by criminal activity and there was no other option in the moment. Clint’s breakdown didn’t cause him to do awful stuff, but allowed him to do the awful stuff that had to be done by someone.
posted by snofoam at 5:27 AM on December 5, 2021 [4 favorites]


I can also see character work (which was sketched out but thinly in endgame) where the impetus of that zeal was a sense of injustice/resentment that 'good people' (here, again, his family stands in for that trope and why I'm glad that in this show they're actually getting to be actual characters, since it's not like the cap america writing team can fix every aou storytelling shortcoming) didn't survive the snap but 'bad people' did.

(Especially if you want to make the worldbuilding argument, using real world analogues, where in times of societal distress organized crime does a lot of ground-level community policing. But just throwing that morsel out there in the discussion.)
posted by cendawanita at 5:38 AM on December 5, 2021 [1 favorite]


Maybe I’m just too Canadian but for me rehabilitation is more important than punishment. So not obsessed with seeing Clint be punished…it’s more can he contribute to society better now.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:43 AM on December 5, 2021 [3 favorites]


Loved this episode, but the question of whether or not this show *can* meaningfully engage with Clint's past as a vengeful vigilante is really tough to answer, for a lot of reasons.

I mean, I'm not telling anyone here anything they don't already know, but the entire history of superhero comics is one of creative decisions being made by committee in a completely slapdash and ad-hoc fashion over the course of decades. Even very well known characters like Superman and Batman have biographies that just fundamentally don't make any kind of sense, and a relatively minor guy like Hawkeye is even worse. He's had several different characterizations over time, as different writers handled his books, that just don't hang together at all. The Fraction/Aja run that everybody loves so much was being published, or had just finished, while the "Age of Ultron" and "Civil War" films came out, giving him an in-film biography that wasn't very compatible with the guy in the most recent comics.

And then the later Avengers films sort of gestured vaguely at his tenure as "Ronin" without actually digging into the morality of it, or even just the basic chronological details, even slightly. And although we're now being asked to react to it as a moral lapse, I'm not remotely convinced that this was the original intention. I mean, the same entertainment conglomerate has offered up the Punisher as an anti-hero too, right? There's nothing that says you can't be a hero and as mass murderer at the same time in the Marvel universe.

But that stuff doesn't make much sense in conjunction with the Fraction/Aja version of the character. And of course that's the version of the character they wanted for the show. How could they have done otherwise? So they have to strain mightily to turn movie Hawkeye into Fraction/Aja Hawkeye somehow. Is there room in six episodes to also do the so-called redemption arc? What would it even look like for a composite personality like Clint to take responsibility for...a bunch of stuff we've never actually seen, except in flashback, and highly compressed? Can it be done while still maintaining this relatively breezy tone that makes this show so fun to watch? On the other hand, they can't easily ignore all of it, either, can they?

If they're bring back D'onofrio as the Kingpin...is it the same guy who crushed a man's head with a car door? As exciting as it would be to have him back, does that version of the Kingpin have a place in a show with this tone? Would it work alongside Tom Holland's Spider-Man too?

The MCU, IMO, is starting to show signs now of how much harder it can be to just sweep obsolete continuity under the rug as a film/tv franchise compared to the comics. And it's way weirder than just "Can this franchise survive after losing two or three of its first generation favs like Cap and Tony and Nat?". It's "How can we render something meaningful from a narrative construction point of view, when we have a bunch of course corrections to make, either erasing decisions that went nowhere useful, or that reflect fundamentally incompatible tones?"
posted by Ipsifendus at 8:12 AM on December 6, 2021 [6 favorites]


Charlie Cox confirmed in MCU by Kevin Feige, which makes Vincent D'onofrio more likely to show up, too.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:46 AM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]


The Netflix Marvel shows were Pretty R-rated but the Disney shows are very dedicated to PG-13 at worst so I'd assume that we'd get a toned down Kingpin.
posted by octothorpe at 11:09 AM on December 6, 2021


And then the later Avengers films sort of gestured vaguely at his tenure as "Ronin" without actually digging into the morality of it, or even just the basic chronological details, even slightly. And although we're now being asked to react to it as a moral lapse, I'm not remotely convinced that this was the original intention.

Oh I definitely think it was the original intention based on the scene of Clint/Ronin killing an asian gang. He's brutal and relentless, even as one of the bad guys asks him why he's doing this, since they never hurt him. Later, the look of pain, sorrow, and disgust on Nat's face as she meets him is palpable.

Earlier, when Rhodey describes the scene of Clint killing a Mexico cartel, he's visibly shaken, as is Nat, over what Clint has become.

As to whether the character can be redeemed, I see no reason why not.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:33 PM on December 7, 2021 [1 favorite]


I've not read any comic books, so I bet your conversation explains why the character has felt so flat and awkward in every movie. Even in this one, I'm so often confused by what the sequences are supposed to convey. Who is clint? I don't care? I've never been given a reason to care.

I've been hoping they were going to turn him into the obi-wan for Kate, because then he can be cross and grouchy and that will at least be a character. But, as it is, his own explanation for not standing out seems to be the most accurate.

The xmas music throughout this whole series has been quite off-putting, and the pacing of episodes as well.
posted by rebent at 6:35 PM on December 8, 2021


And then the later Avengers films sort of gestured vaguely at his tenure as "Ronin" without actually digging into the morality of it, or even just the basic chronological details, even slightly. And although we're now being asked to react to it as a moral lapse, I'm not remotely convinced that this was the original intention. I mean, the same entertainment conglomerate has offered up the Punisher as an anti-hero too, right? There's nothing that says you can't be a hero and as mass murderer at the same time in the Marvel universe.

I'm completely on the fence about this. Mostly because of Zahn McClarnon. That dude is way, way too good to use for one episode, and show him as nothing but a really really good dad, and then maybe kind of suggest that he must have been a bad guy because Ronin straight-up murdered him. Usually in this kind of show they'll show SOMETHING to let us know that a seemingly good guy is a bad guy. But here we get nothing.

And I won't lie, that didn't sit well with me. If Clint was just murdering civilians (even if they are related to the Kingpin) who worked at Kingpin fronts, then he's not an anti-hero, he's a fucking psychopath who should never be allowed around children. If McClarnon's character was a bad guy, then we're going to need to see it at some point.

But even if they DO show that. Like, what's the goal w/r/t Maya's character? OTOH, I want to empathize w/ her: her dad was brutally killed in front of her. But on the other hand, if they're all bad guys then, I dunno, you play the game, you might lose.

BESIDES THAT, this was a pretty damn fun ep. Pizza Dog was great. The oner in this ep was super fun, (way better than the oner in episode one.) The arrow-related jokes were good, and omg that bit where Kate is transcribing for Clint's convo w/ his young son. That was the most touching thing that's happened in the MCU since Vision was talking to Wanda in that flashback. And again, hammers home that the only way for Clint to "win" in this series is to make it home for xmas. Everything else is still just noise. Really good ep.

I'm looking forward to the last three eps.
posted by nushustu at 12:25 PM on December 10, 2021 [1 favorite]


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