Star Trek: Picard: The Last Generation
April 20, 2023 4:04 AM - Season 3, Episode 10 - Subscribe
It's time Locutus gave Võx a serious talking-to. (Series finale)
Did YOU know about Memory Alpha's "aversion to FanFare"?!:
• Walter Koenig (Pavel Chekov in TOS) provides the voice of Federation President Anton Chekov.
• Picard's toast ("There is a tide in the affairs of men…") is from Julius Caesar.
"There are two turns of phrase a Klingon never admits to knowing: defeat and farewell."
- Worf
"I joined Starfleet to find a family I didn't have. And I found it, I let them in. But there was always a barrier."
- Jean-Luc
"The rules that she breaks… Maybe they were broken to begin with."
- Shaw, on Seven
Poster's Log:
First things first: there is a mid-credits scene, and a fairly important one.
As supposed-farewells-to-the-TNG-cast go, it was better than Nemesis—much better, I'd say. It took its time, and not just in the protracted Return of the King-like denouement, but throughout all the climactic action. Everybody got a really good moment, and the -D got several. And plenty of cool stuff, as a series finale should have, and as Trek finales tend to. The season is about as detached from the principles of Trek as Nemesis was, but that itself isn't necessarily a knock—you could say much the same of Wrath of Khan—and particularly not when the season is so intentionally cinematic. The ethical quandaries posed to the Federation by the Borg's whole deal have been dealt with enough in the past, and Trek is IMO allowed to skip the philosophy sometimes.
It's ironic that some comments in the last episode or two mentioned Rise of Skywalker, because the Borg Queen's visual presentation here is absolutely reminiscent of Somehow-Returned Palpatine, who is one of only a handful of things I remember from that movie. (And speaking of wars in the stars, I sure didn't have "Death Star II run" on my season 3 bingo card.) The stand-in for Alice Krige doesn't quite have her style of physical acting down, but that's pretty explicable—the character's been through a lot. Very strange that no reference at all was made to Agnes of Borg. I almost wonder if there was some kind of fierce rift between the season 2 and 3 writers' rooms. At any rate, the Borg had better really be done now.
I really thought the Titan would be rechristened the Picard. Glad it wasn't, though.
I 100% do want a Captain Seven show now, even if it also has to be a Jack show. Of all the Character Journeys they wrote into this season, hers was the most interesting and resonant. Given the last bridge scene and the mid-credits scene, it's safe to say Paramount intends to do one. But what's less obvious is what they'd call it. If there hadn't already been a Star Trek: Enterprise, that is absolutely what they would call it, since everything has to be named "Topic in a Single Word." (Off-topic once again, the only thing that sticks in my craw about the upcoming Ahsoka show is its title.) So what's left? They can't very well call it Star Trek: Seven because they already have one of those too.
Poster's Log, Supplemental:
The 900th installment of film+TV Star Trek should be released sometime in the next year, if my estimate and MA's count is accurate. Right now it looks like it'll be one of the later eps of LOW's 4th season.
Teaser trailer for season two of Strange New Worlds, which premieres June 15!
Did YOU know about Memory Alpha's "aversion to FanFare"?!:
• Walter Koenig (Pavel Chekov in TOS) provides the voice of Federation President Anton Chekov.
• Picard's toast ("There is a tide in the affairs of men…") is from Julius Caesar.
"There are two turns of phrase a Klingon never admits to knowing: defeat and farewell."
- Worf
"I joined Starfleet to find a family I didn't have. And I found it, I let them in. But there was always a barrier."
- Jean-Luc
"The rules that she breaks… Maybe they were broken to begin with."
- Shaw, on Seven
Poster's Log:
First things first: there is a mid-credits scene, and a fairly important one.
As supposed-farewells-to-the-TNG-cast go, it was better than Nemesis—much better, I'd say. It took its time, and not just in the protracted Return of the King-like denouement, but throughout all the climactic action. Everybody got a really good moment, and the -D got several. And plenty of cool stuff, as a series finale should have, and as Trek finales tend to. The season is about as detached from the principles of Trek as Nemesis was, but that itself isn't necessarily a knock—you could say much the same of Wrath of Khan—and particularly not when the season is so intentionally cinematic. The ethical quandaries posed to the Federation by the Borg's whole deal have been dealt with enough in the past, and Trek is IMO allowed to skip the philosophy sometimes.
It's ironic that some comments in the last episode or two mentioned Rise of Skywalker, because the Borg Queen's visual presentation here is absolutely reminiscent of Somehow-Returned Palpatine, who is one of only a handful of things I remember from that movie. (And speaking of wars in the stars, I sure didn't have "Death Star II run" on my season 3 bingo card.) The stand-in for Alice Krige doesn't quite have her style of physical acting down, but that's pretty explicable—the character's been through a lot. Very strange that no reference at all was made to Agnes of Borg. I almost wonder if there was some kind of fierce rift between the season 2 and 3 writers' rooms. At any rate, the Borg had better really be done now.
I really thought the Titan would be rechristened the Picard. Glad it wasn't, though.
I 100% do want a Captain Seven show now, even if it also has to be a Jack show. Of all the Character Journeys they wrote into this season, hers was the most interesting and resonant. Given the last bridge scene and the mid-credits scene, it's safe to say Paramount intends to do one. But what's less obvious is what they'd call it. If there hadn't already been a Star Trek: Enterprise, that is absolutely what they would call it, since everything has to be named "Topic in a Single Word." (Off-topic once again, the only thing that sticks in my craw about the upcoming Ahsoka show is its title.) So what's left? They can't very well call it Star Trek: Seven because they already have one of those too.
Poster's Log, Supplemental:
The 900th installment of film+TV Star Trek should be released sometime in the next year, if my estimate and MA's count is accurate. Right now it looks like it'll be one of the later eps of LOW's 4th season.
Teaser trailer for season two of Strange New Worlds, which premieres June 15!
so we’ve got Picard himself, Data, Elrond, the Borg, and now Q who have all kind of un-died, in this series that originally seemed to be about legacy and getting old and reckoning with legacy and mortality
so that’s neat
definitely felt weird being completely unsurprised that they replicated the final shot of TNG for the credits, but they held it a little too long and it kind of became comedic somehow
didn’t expect a Luke Skywalker Death Star run so they could blow up the Xbox startup animation, but Data is having such a good time so we may as well let him at least have this moment
overall I still feel like the show is doing the End of Evangelion “give the audience what they demand and give it to them good and hard” thing, where the third season is SO about nostalgia (and for all my complaints about the back third or so, well, it’s the best season of the show overall)
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:28 AM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
so that’s neat
definitely felt weird being completely unsurprised that they replicated the final shot of TNG for the credits, but they held it a little too long and it kind of became comedic somehow
didn’t expect a Luke Skywalker Death Star run so they could blow up the Xbox startup animation, but Data is having such a good time so we may as well let him at least have this moment
overall I still feel like the show is doing the End of Evangelion “give the audience what they demand and give it to them good and hard” thing, where the third season is SO about nostalgia (and for all my complaints about the back third or so, well, it’s the best season of the show overall)
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:28 AM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
This felt like being sprayed in the face with a nostalgia firehose, but none of the character dialogue felt right, like the writers hadn't actually SEEN the show.
Also I hate that they named the Not-The-Luna-Class-Titan the Enterprise.
UGH.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
posted by Fleebnork at 5:57 AM on April 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also I hate that they named the Not-The-Luna-Class-Titan the Enterprise.
UGH.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
posted by Fleebnork at 5:57 AM on April 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
I felt like Guy from Galaxy Quest saying "did you guys even WATCH the show??" for the whole season.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:03 AM on April 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Fleebnork at 6:03 AM on April 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
That was fine, I guess.
Unfortunately the fallout of last episode's massacre was addressed about as well as I thought it would be, which is not very. A year later, Starfleet seems none the worse for wear. The only person we see getting therapy in this episode is Data, and it's played for laughs.
So Jack willingly helps the Borg Queen to commit mass murder and attempt to assimilate Earth because he has a sad, and... this is literally never brought up, there are zero consequences, and a year later he's fast-tracked into Starfleet and joking around with the surviving crew of theTitan ...ugh, the Enterprise-G? Come on, that's just insulting.
I did not like the renaming. It was an act of nostalgia so excessive that it makes the Enterprise-D reveal seem restrained in comparison. Now we're going to be saddled with this exasperating fanservice in any hypothetical spinoff.
I did not like the post-credits scene. I have absolutely no interest in seeing this particular character return ever, and I did not need to be told that Jack is an Extra-Special Boy.
The resolution of the Borg problem seemed underwhelming. The threat had to be reduced severely in order for the Enterprise-D to have any chance against them whatsoever, which is why we got the whole cube populated by two Main Characters and some surprise mooks (RIP tenacious Borg drones; you tried!) The actual resolution was half "blow up the thing" and half the fatherhood speedrun I thought I was joking about last week (there was a montage!!). Having everyone beam out safely was a cop-out, but I'll allow it because they let Troi be useful for once by using her powers as a tracking device.
The card game was cute, but took away precious minutes which could have been spent on wrapping up literally everything else.
I could have sworn that at the beginning of this season Picard had a partner that he was planning to go and do something with. Paris? Charis? She was interesting; I wonder what happened to her.
OK, so did I hate it? I didn't hate it. All the nostalgic TNG crew stuff would have been lovely in a context where it wasn't sucking all the oxygen away from the rest of the story, and the serious, world-changing events that were set up in the last episode.
And all the scenes with Seven and the rest of the crew were solid gold. I liked their last stand on the bridge and their attempt to provide a distraction. I loved Shaw's recording and Seven's whole interaction with Real Tuvok. It was all just so painfully brief and unsatisfying. Despite all my gripes, I'm still holding out hope for that spinoff (fingers crossed for holo-Shaw). That was the part of this season that I liked, wanted to see more of, and want to see more of in the future.
posted by confluency at 6:43 AM on April 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
Unfortunately the fallout of last episode's massacre was addressed about as well as I thought it would be, which is not very. A year later, Starfleet seems none the worse for wear. The only person we see getting therapy in this episode is Data, and it's played for laughs.
So Jack willingly helps the Borg Queen to commit mass murder and attempt to assimilate Earth because he has a sad, and... this is literally never brought up, there are zero consequences, and a year later he's fast-tracked into Starfleet and joking around with the surviving crew of the
I did not like the renaming. It was an act of nostalgia so excessive that it makes the Enterprise-D reveal seem restrained in comparison. Now we're going to be saddled with this exasperating fanservice in any hypothetical spinoff.
I did not like the post-credits scene. I have absolutely no interest in seeing this particular character return ever, and I did not need to be told that Jack is an Extra-Special Boy.
The resolution of the Borg problem seemed underwhelming. The threat had to be reduced severely in order for the Enterprise-D to have any chance against them whatsoever, which is why we got the whole cube populated by two Main Characters and some surprise mooks (RIP tenacious Borg drones; you tried!) The actual resolution was half "blow up the thing" and half the fatherhood speedrun I thought I was joking about last week (there was a montage!!). Having everyone beam out safely was a cop-out, but I'll allow it because they let Troi be useful for once by using her powers as a tracking device.
The card game was cute, but took away precious minutes which could have been spent on wrapping up literally everything else.
I could have sworn that at the beginning of this season Picard had a partner that he was planning to go and do something with. Paris? Charis? She was interesting; I wonder what happened to her.
OK, so did I hate it? I didn't hate it. All the nostalgic TNG crew stuff would have been lovely in a context where it wasn't sucking all the oxygen away from the rest of the story, and the serious, world-changing events that were set up in the last episode.
And all the scenes with Seven and the rest of the crew were solid gold. I liked their last stand on the bridge and their attempt to provide a distraction. I loved Shaw's recording and Seven's whole interaction with Real Tuvok. It was all just so painfully brief and unsatisfying. Despite all my gripes, I'm still holding out hope for that spinoff (fingers crossed for holo-Shaw). That was the part of this season that I liked, wanted to see more of, and want to see more of in the future.
posted by confluency at 6:43 AM on April 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
Did they just forget Data's entire emotion chip arc from TNG, Generations, and First Contact?
How did they find Tuvok? Did some of the rogue Changelings give themselves up? Some obviously didn't (the one that Crusher's fancy new transporter tech found).
Speaking of, Crusher gets reinstated and promoted to Admiral after dropping off the map and doing vigilante stuff for 20-odd years?
Like confluency, I wonder why they even included Laris in s03e01 not to bring her back, like, at all. Wasn't S2 all about Picard learning to love (??).
On the one hand, Worf not saying anything about Alexander at all, even when Raffi is getting back together with her estranged family, seems like something is missing. OTOH, that is in character for Worf. lol.
No attempt at all to reach out to, say, the Klingons or some other power that presumably had not been assimilated?
Sigh.
posted by dhens at 7:16 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
How did they find Tuvok? Did some of the rogue Changelings give themselves up? Some obviously didn't (the one that Crusher's fancy new transporter tech found).
Speaking of, Crusher gets reinstated and promoted to Admiral after dropping off the map and doing vigilante stuff for 20-odd years?
Like confluency, I wonder why they even included Laris in s03e01 not to bring her back, like, at all. Wasn't S2 all about Picard learning to love (??).
On the one hand, Worf not saying anything about Alexander at all, even when Raffi is getting back together with her estranged family, seems like something is missing. OTOH, that is in character for Worf. lol.
No attempt at all to reach out to, say, the Klingons or some other power that presumably had not been assimilated?
Sigh.
posted by dhens at 7:16 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I liked how, just like in PRO, the tech thing controlling all the starfleet ships was swirly and tech-y. Luckily, this one was vulnerable to being blowed up real good.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:42 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:42 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, Worf not saying anything about Alexander at all, even when Raffi is getting back together with her estranged family, seems like something is missing. OTOH, that is in character for Worf. lol.
I don't know how much they're holding the comics to canon, but presently, Alex has run off and join a renegade group of Klingons on a crusade lead by the Klingon Emperor to eradicate a variety of things in the galaxy....so maybe he doesn't survive that? Who knows.
I enjoyed this finale and I appreciated how it did give time to all the characters. I liked the small touches like Jack being equipped with the same facial apparatus as Locutus and the card game at the end. I dunno, I thought the characters and the dialogue was all on base. Even Q swinging by like it's Mission to Farpoint Station was a nice nod to the original. If this had somehow been condensed into a two hour movie, I would have walked out pretty entertained.
I didn't have a problem with the instant promotions going on, after all, we know at least one admiral was taken off the board, if not quite a number of senior officers. I would like to know the protocol they setup for Raffi and Seven (presuming they're still a couple?). There are some definite issues with a captain being romantically involved with their first officer.
Also, they must have been able to salvage quite a bit of Space Dock to get it up and running again only after a year.
And also, if there's an Enterprise G show with Seven, Matalas has been clear on social media he would go with "Star Trek: Legacy."
posted by Atreides at 8:20 AM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know how much they're holding the comics to canon, but presently, Alex has run off and join a renegade group of Klingons on a crusade lead by the Klingon Emperor to eradicate a variety of things in the galaxy....so maybe he doesn't survive that? Who knows.
I enjoyed this finale and I appreciated how it did give time to all the characters. I liked the small touches like Jack being equipped with the same facial apparatus as Locutus and the card game at the end. I dunno, I thought the characters and the dialogue was all on base. Even Q swinging by like it's Mission to Farpoint Station was a nice nod to the original. If this had somehow been condensed into a two hour movie, I would have walked out pretty entertained.
I didn't have a problem with the instant promotions going on, after all, we know at least one admiral was taken off the board, if not quite a number of senior officers. I would like to know the protocol they setup for Raffi and Seven (presuming they're still a couple?). There are some definite issues with a captain being romantically involved with their first officer.
Also, they must have been able to salvage quite a bit of Space Dock to get it up and running again only after a year.
And also, if there's an Enterprise G show with Seven, Matalas has been clear on social media he would go with "Star Trek: Legacy."
posted by Atreides at 8:20 AM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
it's safe to say Paramount intends to do one. But what's less obvious is what they'd call it. If there hadn't already been a Star Trek: Enterprise, that is absolutely what they would call it, since everything has to be named "Topic in a Single Word." (Off-topic once again, the only thing that sticks in my craw about the upcoming Ahsoka show is its title.) So what's left? They can't very well call it Star Trek: Seven because they already have one of those too.
Matalas has said he wants to do the show and it would be called Star Trek: Legacy. I don't love the name, but whatever.
posted by rhymedirective at 8:36 AM on April 20, 2023
Matalas has said he wants to do the show and it would be called Star Trek: Legacy. I don't love the name, but whatever.
posted by rhymedirective at 8:36 AM on April 20, 2023
So, when the remastered episodes of TOS came out, there was a bit of a hue and a cry over the changes in how the Enterprise maneuvered around the planet-killer in "The Doomsday Machine" - Constitution-class starships, the 23rd century version of navy battleships, had not previously been shown to be nimble in any way. I had the same feeling watching the stately, majestic, lumbering Enterprise-D nimbly dancing through its trench run to the big swirly thing - how is this more-than-half-a-kilometer-long beast dodging through that conduit so easily?
This was... fine. I'm still mad at all the mouth-flappy talking the assimilated crew did, and I'm really confused as to why they didn't just use the phasers that they still had after being beamed into confinement to, you know, melt the wall open, but those are minor nits.
Tuvok's ears do not look right, though.
posted by hanov3r at 8:51 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
This was... fine. I'm still mad at all the mouth-flappy talking the assimilated crew did, and I'm really confused as to why they didn't just use the phasers that they still had after being beamed into confinement to, you know, melt the wall open, but those are minor nits.
Tuvok's ears do not look right, though.
posted by hanov3r at 8:51 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tuvok's ears do not look right, though.
Yeah, what ARE the makeup people doing to Vulcans? Let's chill on the ears and regroup.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:14 AM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, what ARE the makeup people doing to Vulcans? Let's chill on the ears and regroup.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:14 AM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
You do not rename a ship. It's bad luck. It angers the gods. You simply do not do it. The USS Titan is the USS Titan. As it was, so it is, so it will be.
The legend of the single ship that held fast against the entire fleet, is the Titan. A name that should be sung in legends down the ages. Slapping "Enterprise" on it to wipe out that roll and purloin the credit for the mythos of the Enterprise. No. Just no.
You want a new ship in the story? You wreck the Titan in a last gasp move, you take it to the fleet museum. And then you can unveil another ship in class. And maybe do what everyone thought was about to happen before the merchandise branding team had input... call it USS Picard.
posted by ewan at 9:45 AM on April 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
The legend of the single ship that held fast against the entire fleet, is the Titan. A name that should be sung in legends down the ages. Slapping "Enterprise" on it to wipe out that roll and purloin the credit for the mythos of the Enterprise. No. Just no.
You want a new ship in the story? You wreck the Titan in a last gasp move, you take it to the fleet museum. And then you can unveil another ship in class. And maybe do what everyone thought was about to happen before the merchandise branding team had input... call it USS Picard.
posted by ewan at 9:45 AM on April 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
Also... the vast vast majority of personnel over the age of 25 have been murdered. That fleet is more than decimated in terms of staffing, lacking knowledge, and PTSD should be everywhere. That's the story, a Federation with no ships, a planet with minimal defences, a species carrying immense guilt.
In part this could explain Crusher's quick adoption into the fleet (we need numebrs) and the clear breech of guidelines to have a Captain and XO either in a relationship or previously in a relationship (Oh yes, and what happened to that very very tiny nod towards LGBTQ+ representation in Season 2?).
So many tiny things wrong, and each one has taken me out of the story. A shiny recreation of a bridge does not cover the multitude of plotting issues.
posted by ewan at 9:50 AM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
In part this could explain Crusher's quick adoption into the fleet (we need numebrs) and the clear breech of guidelines to have a Captain and XO either in a relationship or previously in a relationship (Oh yes, and what happened to that very very tiny nod towards LGBTQ+ representation in Season 2?).
So many tiny things wrong, and each one has taken me out of the story. A shiny recreation of a bridge does not cover the multitude of plotting issues.
posted by ewan at 9:50 AM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
Ironically enough, having no or insufficient emotional consequences for severe trauma is completely on brand for TNG (she says, still annoyed by Geordi's insta-forgiveness after Data's emotion chip debacle).
posted by thomas j wise at 10:01 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 10:01 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ironically enough, having no or insufficient emotional consequences for severe trauma is completely on brand for TNG (she says, still annoyed by Geordi's insta-forgiveness after Data's emotion chip debacle).
Star Fleet operates on the O'Brian Standard. If you have received less trauma than Chief O'Brian, then back to work and no complaining.
posted by Atreides at 10:04 AM on April 20, 2023 [30 favorites]
Star Fleet operates on the O'Brian Standard. If you have received less trauma than Chief O'Brian, then back to work and no complaining.
posted by Atreides at 10:04 AM on April 20, 2023 [30 favorites]
I think as a season of television this was not great. Better than season 2, but I'm still sore that they jettisoned every interesting decision from season 1 in favor of a bunch of exciting nonsense. The best Trek has always been more that the sum of its parts. This certainly did not succeed on that score.
As for atoning for the send-off the TNG crew got in Nemesis, it worked for me.
I hope DIS season 5 is the last gasp of mystery box serialized Trek. It does not work.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:05 AM on April 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
As for atoning for the send-off the TNG crew got in Nemesis, it worked for me.
I hope DIS season 5 is the last gasp of mystery box serialized Trek. It does not work.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:05 AM on April 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
I hope DIS season 5 is the last gasp of mystery box serialized Trek. It does not work.
100% this
posted by HiddenInput at 10:21 AM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
100% this
posted by HiddenInput at 10:21 AM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
MeFi's own Will Harris (disclosure, personal friend) has an interview with Terry Matalas that just went out on his Substack newsletter today. It's subscribers-only, and the guy deserves to get paid, so I won't drop the whole interview here, but here's a piece of it that's relevant to the conversation here.
In the process of constructing it, did you ask yourself, "How many aspects of Star Trek can I incorporate into this one season?"posted by martin q blank at 11:56 AM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
No, but it definitely felt like if this was the final bite of the apple for Picard and Star Trek: The Next Generation, then we wanted it to be a love letter to it. And that was when we sat down with all the creatives, and we all unanimously felt like that was the right tone for it.
One of the greatest accomplishments of the season, I think, was that it made a lot of people go back and reevaluate Star Trek: Nemesis. Were you a fan of the film yourself?
Nemesis? Um... There's a lot of Nemesis that's really fascinating. I love the deep character dive that it does into Picard and the question that it asks to who he might've been. I also think it strikes a really interesting tone. One wonders what that film might've been if maybe John Logan had a little bit more freedom for it to breathe a little bit more. His script was a little bit longer and had some different pivots. But, yeah, I think it's certainly... [Hesitates.] It might not always be as successful as I think it set out to be, but I think it's definitely an interesting film.
One thing that seems different in social media in general as opposed to these FF threads is that the former seems to have a whole lot of people that are happy enough at the TNG reunion that they're willing to overlook a lot of flaws and whatnot in the story. (I don't think that the vast majority of Starfleet personnel over 25 were killed--we know of at least one ship where they didn't take control at all, although that ship was quickly dispatched, and I doubt that the Titan was the only ship with senior officers canny enough to run for cover--but we don't know that for sure.) I'm certainly no fan of Nemesis, and this worked pretty well as a sendoff. And, yeah, I'd also watch Star Trek: Legacy, although, going by the standard abbreviation convention, it would be... LEG. (Phwoar!)
There were also some nice non-TNG bits: having Pavel Chekov's son named Anton; Jack striding onto the bridge as if he's already got his own command (which I took to be a sly callback to the Kelvin timeline, as well); and Shaw's last message, which cemented his rep as the best worst captain that Starfleet ever had.
The E-D getting +20 to DEX all of a sudden was a bit much, as was the Borg-Cube-as-Death-Star-II run. (Dave Filoni should get some back by having a scene in one of his shows where the New Republic goes through a phase in which their uniforms feature different primary colors on black.) And Q coming back is... I dunno. I don't hate it, but they could have left him dead. (And while we're talking about people from last season, I figured that the reason why the Borg were so easilyjobbeddefeated was that Agnes' totally-voluntary, cancel-your-membership-at-any-time-at-no-extra-cost Collective had been making inroads on the "main" Collective.)
Also, WRT ship renaming, there's precedent in the franchise.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:37 PM on April 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
There were also some nice non-TNG bits: having Pavel Chekov's son named Anton; Jack striding onto the bridge as if he's already got his own command (which I took to be a sly callback to the Kelvin timeline, as well); and Shaw's last message, which cemented his rep as the best worst captain that Starfleet ever had.
The E-D getting +20 to DEX all of a sudden was a bit much, as was the Borg-Cube-as-Death-Star-II run. (Dave Filoni should get some back by having a scene in one of his shows where the New Republic goes through a phase in which their uniforms feature different primary colors on black.) And Q coming back is... I dunno. I don't hate it, but they could have left him dead. (And while we're talking about people from last season, I figured that the reason why the Borg were so easily
Also, WRT ship renaming, there's precedent in the franchise.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:37 PM on April 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
One thing that seems different in social media in general as opposed to these FF threads is that the former seems to have a whole lot of people that are happy enough at the TNG reunion that they're willing to overlook a lot of flaws and whatnot in the story.
This is often true of a lot of SF media, I find - the discussion on Fanfare is a lot more exacting/demanding and probing of what is going on. It's possible that people on social media are just posting what they do because it gets likes and engagement, but honestly, I think the negative takes would too. All of which is to say, I'd rather hang out here and hear frustrated critiques - and be one of them too - than just go along with it all.
Anyways, this was an ok episode, I think largely because I knew where it was all going to go after last week and I was resigned to nothing interesting/unexpected happening...and so it goes. Honestly, could have done without the credits scene - I really don't care that much about Jack, and honestly, if there is a spinoff, it has to get away from the nostalgia.
posted by nubs at 1:16 PM on April 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is often true of a lot of SF media, I find - the discussion on Fanfare is a lot more exacting/demanding and probing of what is going on. It's possible that people on social media are just posting what they do because it gets likes and engagement, but honestly, I think the negative takes would too. All of which is to say, I'd rather hang out here and hear frustrated critiques - and be one of them too - than just go along with it all.
Anyways, this was an ok episode, I think largely because I knew where it was all going to go after last week and I was resigned to nothing interesting/unexpected happening...and so it goes. Honestly, could have done without the credits scene - I really don't care that much about Jack, and honestly, if there is a spinoff, it has to get away from the nostalgia.
posted by nubs at 1:16 PM on April 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
To me, it comes back to that theory of criticism (I can't remember the exact words or the author) that first you have to assess what the artist's intent was, and then how well they accomplished that intent. Matalas said the intent was a "love letter" to the TNG characters, and he delivered that pretty well.
They could have had a tighter plot, fewer nonsensical and/or weird choices along the way, but everyone had some moments to shine, there were a few truly clever ideas, and it was great to hear Sir Patrick deliver the lines - "make it so" and "engage" and a Julius Caesar speech to boot -- and and to see him rake in that one pot. I'm happy.
posted by martin q blank at 1:25 PM on April 20, 2023 [13 favorites]
They could have had a tighter plot, fewer nonsensical and/or weird choices along the way, but everyone had some moments to shine, there were a few truly clever ideas, and it was great to hear Sir Patrick deliver the lines - "make it so" and "engage" and a Julius Caesar speech to boot -- and and to see him rake in that one pot. I'm happy.
posted by martin q blank at 1:25 PM on April 20, 2023 [13 favorites]
I did genuinely like the way that it cut away just before Seven said whatever her trademark captain catchphrase would have been. I was actually joking about it in the moment and didn’t expect them to actually be willing to do it.
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:43 PM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:43 PM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
The reason I'm not complaining about this show on Twitter is because Matalas is super on Twitter and very defensive even over good faith criticisms. He was particularly bad last season.
posted by crossoverman at 3:36 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 3:36 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
“Swords are fun.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:48 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:48 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Worf's "And I will make it a threesome!" when he was joining Riker and Picard in the turbo lift threw me for a bit. I had to agree with Riker - "Do you hear yourself right now?"
posted by Roger Pittman at 6:11 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Roger Pittman at 6:11 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am simpy choking from all the memberberries and easter eggs being crammed down my throat. If nothing else, I think Terry Matalas deserve credit for finding the most possible ways to include something nostalgic in every single moment of this episode. He even managed to include the nostalgia from other franchises!
Basically the entire thing wrapped up in the first 30 minutes (universe saved thanks to a hug from Daddy), and we spent the second half just taking a victory lap.
posted by briank at 7:03 PM on April 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Basically the entire thing wrapped up in the first 30 minutes (universe saved thanks to a hug from Daddy), and we spent the second half just taking a victory lap.
posted by briank at 7:03 PM on April 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Watching this season was like losing my virginity, in the sense that it didn't quite live up to the hype, but it did make me feel older.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:09 PM on April 20, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:09 PM on April 20, 2023 [26 favorites]
The threesome joke sounded like it was lifted from an episode of Archer.
posted by crossoverman at 9:03 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 9:03 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Worf snoring was fine.
The rest was awful. Star Trek: Derivative. Thankfully we have Lower Decks.
The Federation having a software like versioning issue with the naming of every subsequent Enterprise I found a little amusing. In DS9 they just called the second Defiant, the Defiant (originally the Sao Paulo). I know there's precedent here but it would be nice to get rid of that one. Do you really need the version number on the hull? Is it a military thing?
Todd Stashwick (Captain Shaw) will be the guest on this week's Shuttlepod Show hosted by Enterprise's Dominic "God bless" Keating and Connor "Desert Island" Trineer.
posted by juiceCake at 9:42 PM on April 20, 2023
The rest was awful. Star Trek: Derivative. Thankfully we have Lower Decks.
The Federation having a software like versioning issue with the naming of every subsequent Enterprise I found a little amusing. In DS9 they just called the second Defiant, the Defiant (originally the Sao Paulo). I know there's precedent here but it would be nice to get rid of that one. Do you really need the version number on the hull? Is it a military thing?
Todd Stashwick (Captain Shaw) will be the guest on this week's Shuttlepod Show hosted by Enterprise's Dominic "God bless" Keating and Connor "Desert Island" Trineer.
posted by juiceCake at 9:42 PM on April 20, 2023
Worf snoring was probably the funniest bit of the episode.
posted by crossoverman at 10:22 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 10:22 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well it's over now.
posted by Nelson at 10:22 PM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:22 PM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
I felt like Guy from Galaxy Quest saying "did you guys even WATCH the show??" for the whole season.
Still laughing at this. And yeah, this didn’t even make sense as an episode of television, let alone of anything Trek. I guess if the intent was only to make us feel nostalgia, then it was successful; by any other metric, this whole season was a mess. An occasionally fun mess, but still.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:29 PM on April 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Still laughing at this. And yeah, this didn’t even make sense as an episode of television, let alone of anything Trek. I guess if the intent was only to make us feel nostalgia, then it was successful; by any other metric, this whole season was a mess. An occasionally fun mess, but still.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:29 PM on April 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
I did genuinely like the way that it cut away just before Seven said whatever her trademark captain catchphrase would have been. I was actually joking about it in the moment and didn’t expect them to actually be willing to do it.
I believe that Captain Carol Freeman workshopped the platonic ideal, "Warp me!"
posted by mikelieman at 11:25 PM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I believe that Captain Carol Freeman workshopped the platonic ideal, "Warp me!"
posted by mikelieman at 11:25 PM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I didn't like the season in general (marginally better than S2) but damn. Renaming the Titan is such lazy fan wankery, even by the standards of a season steeped in it. But it's also incredibly bad luck to rename a vessel. I'm hoping season 4 is just 20 minutes of the supposed "Enterprise" running into something as it tries to leave space dock.
Then a sad trombone sound effect.
posted by brundlefly at 11:32 PM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Then a sad trombone sound effect.
posted by brundlefly at 11:32 PM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wrapped up by both asplosion and a speech'n'hug.
It was an ok season, somewhere in between the best parts of s1 and the worst parts; but hey, not all tv can be The Ark.
posted by Marticus at 2:33 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
It was an ok season, somewhere in between the best parts of s1 and the worst parts; but hey, not all tv can be The Ark.
posted by Marticus at 2:33 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
On another board there was rejoicing all around that it was the Best Trek Ever and calls for Matalas to be handed the keys to all future instalments of the franchise. Was anything not great? We should have heard what Captain Seven’s “Let’s go” line was. Apart from that: flawless.
I am starting to see why we have the government we do.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:36 AM on April 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
I am starting to see why we have the government we do.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:36 AM on April 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
I enjoyed it. Some of us just wanted to spend time again with our TV pals, sit in a space meeting, and imagine flying through space in a luxury hotel / conference center.
posted by Servo5678 at 5:16 AM on April 21, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Servo5678 at 5:16 AM on April 21, 2023 [15 favorites]
You kids, always whinin' and complainin' about yer Star Trek...In my day, we had to pay seven bucks and go to the damn movie theater just to see Shatner argue with God...AND WE LIKED IT!
posted by PlusDistance at 5:26 AM on April 21, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by PlusDistance at 5:26 AM on April 21, 2023 [17 favorites]
"bad luck" renaming ships is a western construct. Soviets renamed ships all the time, often multiple times per ship/sub.
posted by some loser at 5:33 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by some loser at 5:33 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I imagine when Deanna took the helm, there may have been a few nervously exchanged glances on the bridge. The last time she was there, er...
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:46 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:46 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
On another board there was rejoicing all around that it was the Best Trek Ever and calls for Matalas to be handed the keys to all future instalments of the franchise. Was anything not great? We should have heard what Captain Seven’s “Let’s go” line was. Apart from that: flawless.
I am starting to see why we have the government we do.
I actually got a 10-day timeout on /r/startrek on Reddit for suggesting that maybe this wasn't the greatest thing in the history of television.
posted by briank at 5:49 AM on April 21, 2023 [16 favorites]
I am starting to see why we have the government we do.
I actually got a 10-day timeout on /r/startrek on Reddit for suggesting that maybe this wasn't the greatest thing in the history of television.
posted by briank at 5:49 AM on April 21, 2023 [16 favorites]
Picard, staring at Borg cube: "What began over 35 years ago ends tonight!"
Me, staring at TV: "thank goodness".
posted by Nelson at 5:50 AM on April 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
Me, staring at TV: "thank goodness".
posted by Nelson at 5:50 AM on April 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
I am starting to see why we have the government we do.
Not to say this show is perfect, but this comment really makes me not want to be here at all.
posted by jordemort at 6:03 AM on April 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Not to say this show is perfect, but this comment really makes me not want to be here at all.
posted by jordemort at 6:03 AM on April 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Oh, I am perfectly happy to admit this season had moments of delight. I am, however, saddened by the notion that Matalas Trek should be the new model going forward.
Earlier this week I had some chocolates with caramel and sea salt. They were great, but I would not want to eat that and nothing else for the rest of my days.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:08 AM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Earlier this week I had some chocolates with caramel and sea salt. They were great, but I would not want to eat that and nothing else for the rest of my days.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:08 AM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Earlier this week...
Earlier this morning, I read a comment implying that I must be a moron or a fascist for enjoying a show that you did not, and I could do without that entirely for the rest of my days.
posted by jordemort at 6:16 AM on April 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Earlier this morning, I read a comment implying that I must be a moron or a fascist for enjoying a show that you did not, and I could do without that entirely for the rest of my days.
posted by jordemort at 6:16 AM on April 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
For all my saltiness, I consider this season to be a net positive experience. While I can nitpick endlessly and be mad that they killed my favourite blorbos (it's Star Trek; they can always come back), I enjoyed most of it. If I didn't, I wouldn't even be commenting in here. I'm sure I'll revise my opinion of the finale if/when the spinoff happens.
I'm glad all the legacy actors got paid, and it sounds like they had a good time, and I appreciate what Matalas was trying to do here even if I wanted him to do other things. He is neither the second coming of Trek nor the devil; he's just this dude who produced a season that was a mixed bag of very good bits and really questionable bits. People are so weird about this.
posted by confluency at 6:30 AM on April 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm glad all the legacy actors got paid, and it sounds like they had a good time, and I appreciate what Matalas was trying to do here even if I wanted him to do other things. He is neither the second coming of Trek nor the devil; he's just this dude who produced a season that was a mixed bag of very good bits and really questionable bits. People are so weird about this.
posted by confluency at 6:30 AM on April 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Through the first half of S3 I was really mostly enjoying it. To me, where the season most fell short was in its disregard for any emotional stakes other than our joy at seeing the TNG cast reunited. Since the show felt like nothing mattered except that, I ended up not really caring about anything else, just like it told me to.
I actually got a 10-day timeout on /r/startrek on Reddit for suggesting that maybe this wasn't the greatest thing in the history of television.
It's pretty clear that Paramount employees are quite active on /r/startrek, the big fan subreddits seem quite astroturfed.
Some of us just wanted to spend time again with our TV pals, sit in a space meeting, and imagine flying through space in a luxury hotel / conference center.
I was legitimately disappointed that there was only one short scene in the whole season with the TNG cast sitting in a space meeting. I would have loved to see more space meetings and less Enterprise-as-Millenium-Falcon.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:40 AM on April 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
I actually got a 10-day timeout on /r/startrek on Reddit for suggesting that maybe this wasn't the greatest thing in the history of television.
It's pretty clear that Paramount employees are quite active on /r/startrek, the big fan subreddits seem quite astroturfed.
Some of us just wanted to spend time again with our TV pals, sit in a space meeting, and imagine flying through space in a luxury hotel / conference center.
I was legitimately disappointed that there was only one short scene in the whole season with the TNG cast sitting in a space meeting. I would have loved to see more space meetings and less Enterprise-as-Millenium-Falcon.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:40 AM on April 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
Earlier this morning, I read a comment implying that I must be a moron or a fascist for enjoying a show that you did not, and I could do without that entirely for the rest of my days.
That’s a weirdly hostile misreading of what I wrote.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:46 AM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
That’s a weirdly hostile misreading of what I wrote.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:46 AM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was confused about the placement of "One Year Later". It would have made sense if it preceeded the following scene, where they were dropping Jack off, but placing it right before Geordi shuts down the Enterprise D kind of implies that they've all just been hanging out on the D for the past year.
I have other thoughts about this finale, but this one is the easiest to articulate.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:01 AM on April 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have other thoughts about this finale, but this one is the easiest to articulate.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:01 AM on April 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think it gives the fanfic writers room to produce more TNG stories in the final year.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:11 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:11 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm so old that I'm a TOS guy who remembers how much I and many other Trekkies hated TNG when it first began. It did have a few good seasons, but I've never had a sentimental attachment to TNG or its cast. I did have a sentimental attachment to the TOS cast and their movies, but that didn't stop me hating the really bad films, which were more than half of them. And I honestly cannot remember almost anything that happened in any of the TNG films. (I do remember the Borg Queen stuff, unfortunately.) And my favorite series was DS9, but if they did to it what they did to TNG this season in PIC, I'd have hated it. These characters deserve better.
SNW isn't great TV, but S1 was more solidly good than any other first season of Trek. S1 of DIS was pretty good — I rewatched the second half the other day. S1 of PIC was uneven, but interesting. And LOW is a different kind of thing, but good at what it is. (I'm agnostic on PRO.) Otherwise, almost all Star Trek after VOY has been pretty bad. That they're considering a Jack-centric show with Q just demonstrates how how poor their instincts are.
I don't know how SNW managed to avoid sucking.
Being an old-school Trekkie who's watched Trek almost my entire life beginning from the 60s, I think I qualify as someone that Trek nostalgia appeals to. But surely it can actually manage to be moderately good as well as being fanservice. Can't it?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:32 AM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
SNW isn't great TV, but S1 was more solidly good than any other first season of Trek. S1 of DIS was pretty good — I rewatched the second half the other day. S1 of PIC was uneven, but interesting. And LOW is a different kind of thing, but good at what it is. (I'm agnostic on PRO.) Otherwise, almost all Star Trek after VOY has been pretty bad. That they're considering a Jack-centric show with Q just demonstrates how how poor their instincts are.
I don't know how SNW managed to avoid sucking.
Being an old-school Trekkie who's watched Trek almost my entire life beginning from the 60s, I think I qualify as someone that Trek nostalgia appeals to. But surely it can actually manage to be moderately good as well as being fanservice. Can't it?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:32 AM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
I enjoyed it all the more once I stopped expecting it to be a modern version of the series.
posted by Space Kitty at 8:35 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 8:35 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's over, and it contained zero Wesley.
For that I am grateful.
posted by Faintdreams at 8:43 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
For that I am grateful.
posted by Faintdreams at 8:43 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm so old that I'm a TOS guy who remembers how much I and many other Trekkies hated TNG when it first began.
I mentioned once on the blue that I used to see a paperback anthology every year or two called “The Best of Trek,” which was a collection of articles from a Star Trek fan magazine called, I guess, “Trek.”
I never saw the magazine itself, but these paperbacks were turning up in the sf sections of bookstores up until 1990 or so, and they were sequentially numbered — the highest I recall was #18. As far as I can tell, they pretty much politely ignored TNG entirely. It was amazing how much of Star Trek fandom was gripped by the “Best of Both Worlds” cliffhanger and the magazine was still publishing essays about the ecology of the tribble.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:43 AM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mentioned once on the blue that I used to see a paperback anthology every year or two called “The Best of Trek,” which was a collection of articles from a Star Trek fan magazine called, I guess, “Trek.”
I never saw the magazine itself, but these paperbacks were turning up in the sf sections of bookstores up until 1990 or so, and they were sequentially numbered — the highest I recall was #18. As far as I can tell, they pretty much politely ignored TNG entirely. It was amazing how much of Star Trek fandom was gripped by the “Best of Both Worlds” cliffhanger and the magazine was still publishing essays about the ecology of the tribble.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:43 AM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
That’s a weirdly hostile misreading of what I wrote.
Speaking as a mere bystander....that's kind of the impression I got from what you wrote as well. You may not have intended for it to sound that hostile, but somehow it did sound that way; something to consider.
....as for the show - it was one of a whole lot of things lately that I've been finding to be just sort of "meh". Chalking that up to having recently watched a spate of unusually good movies, though, rather than the actual quality of the shows....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:46 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
Speaking as a mere bystander....that's kind of the impression I got from what you wrote as well. You may not have intended for it to sound that hostile, but somehow it did sound that way; something to consider.
....as for the show - it was one of a whole lot of things lately that I've been finding to be just sort of "meh". Chalking that up to having recently watched a spate of unusually good movies, though, rather than the actual quality of the shows....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:46 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm all for the Captain 7 in the hastily-renamed Titan spin-off, provided that the first thing we see in the first episode is a title card that says "Note: Jack Picard died on the way back to his home planet."
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:48 AM on April 21, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:48 AM on April 21, 2023 [21 favorites]
Andor and Tony Gilroy delivered what I had hoped to see when I first heard that Michael Chabon had signed on to showrun Picard.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:51 AM on April 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:51 AM on April 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
that's kind of the impression I got from what you wrote as well.
How odd. I see a few people in these threads who seem much more critical of PIC than I. The last couple of episodes on Fanfare I have found myself thinking of the observation that no one hates Star Trek as much as Star Trek fans.
I found this season more enjoyable than the previous two but Matalas seems pretty self-indulgent: the crucial setting of the planet M’Talas, the loving shot of the previously unmentioned but famous Constitution-class USS New Jersey, NCC-1975, from a showrunner born in New Jersey in 1975 — this is what diminished my enjoyment considerably.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:55 AM on April 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
How odd. I see a few people in these threads who seem much more critical of PIC than I. The last couple of episodes on Fanfare I have found myself thinking of the observation that no one hates Star Trek as much as Star Trek fans.
I found this season more enjoyable than the previous two but Matalas seems pretty self-indulgent: the crucial setting of the planet M’Talas, the loving shot of the previously unmentioned but famous Constitution-class USS New Jersey, NCC-1975, from a showrunner born in New Jersey in 1975 — this is what diminished my enjoyment considerably.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:55 AM on April 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm kinda looking forward to Captain Seven and Raffi in Star Trek: The Gen X One where they get to be rebellious slackers against Boomer Badmirals while shepherding a mixed Millenial and Gen Z crew.
posted by Pryde at 9:11 AM on April 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Pryde at 9:11 AM on April 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
How odd. I see a few people in these threads who seem much more critical of PIC than I.
...yes, but none claimed they were "starting to see why we have the government we do" after quoting people who liked it. Is there context we're missing?
I found this season more enjoyable than the previous two but Matalas seems pretty self-indulgent...
It leaned a little too much into nostalgia for my taste, but it's possible that they decided that "eh, it's the last season, let's just crank the fanservice up to eleven". Ah well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:59 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
...yes, but none claimed they were "starting to see why we have the government we do" after quoting people who liked it. Is there context we're missing?
I found this season more enjoyable than the previous two but Matalas seems pretty self-indulgent...
It leaned a little too much into nostalgia for my taste, but it's possible that they decided that "eh, it's the last season, let's just crank the fanservice up to eleven". Ah well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:59 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would be happy to see the Captain Seven Show, featuring Raffi! but it would be better if it was still the Titan, and if Jack was, like all beginning Starfleet officers, just a grunt doing backup to all the actually trained officers. And wouldn't it have been more fun if Q picked on Sidney La Forge instead?
I decided it was best for me to forget about the story (the Changelings should have been the big bads, thanks) and just enjoy the actors who have been friends for 35 years enjoy playing together one last time. Frakes and Dorn appeared to have the time of their lives, Spiner got to chew a lot of scenery, Sirtis played the best version of Deanna she had ever been given, and Stewart got to quote Shakespeare. McFadden got to be a badass weapons officer (and emote--I'm still pissed that she would have JL's kid and never tell him) and Burton got to be a dad and say lots of technobabble in his reassuring way.
There was a lot to enjoy. The credits sequence with the overhead shot of them playing poker, when you can still hear them talk and laugh over the music made me very happy. Worf smiled! Raffi, who I always liked, came into her own and was great teamed up with Worf. Seven was, as always, fantastic. But Jack running off to the Borg because he was so lonely and only his Dad could bring him back, like his mom didn't love him and spend time with him? Blech. And, no mention of lots of therapy for all those young adults who were taken over by the Borg and straight up murdered people. At least Data was getting therapy.
I will be happy if we never hear the word "Borg" again. Make it so.
posted by ceejaytee at 10:36 AM on April 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
I decided it was best for me to forget about the story (the Changelings should have been the big bads, thanks) and just enjoy the actors who have been friends for 35 years enjoy playing together one last time. Frakes and Dorn appeared to have the time of their lives, Spiner got to chew a lot of scenery, Sirtis played the best version of Deanna she had ever been given, and Stewart got to quote Shakespeare. McFadden got to be a badass weapons officer (and emote--I'm still pissed that she would have JL's kid and never tell him) and Burton got to be a dad and say lots of technobabble in his reassuring way.
There was a lot to enjoy. The credits sequence with the overhead shot of them playing poker, when you can still hear them talk and laugh over the music made me very happy. Worf smiled! Raffi, who I always liked, came into her own and was great teamed up with Worf. Seven was, as always, fantastic. But Jack running off to the Borg because he was so lonely and only his Dad could bring him back, like his mom didn't love him and spend time with him? Blech. And, no mention of lots of therapy for all those young adults who were taken over by the Borg and straight up murdered people. At least Data was getting therapy.
I will be happy if we never hear the word "Borg" again. Make it so.
posted by ceejaytee at 10:36 AM on April 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
But Jack running off to the Borg because he was so lonely and only his Dad could bring him back, like his mom didn't love him and spend time with him? Blech
While he obviously was close to his mom, she also purposefully isolated him for significant parts of his life, either physically or emotionally making sure no one knew who he really was. That he was enticed by the idea of being openly embraced as a member of a community isn't too far a stretch. I love my parents but I don't know if I'd be super happy with having them as my only friends (see also Blast from the Past for another child protected from a dangerous world eager to belong once he joins it!).
posted by Atreides at 11:58 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
While he obviously was close to his mom, she also purposefully isolated him for significant parts of his life, either physically or emotionally making sure no one knew who he really was. That he was enticed by the idea of being openly embraced as a member of a community isn't too far a stretch. I love my parents but I don't know if I'd be super happy with having them as my only friends (see also Blast from the Past for another child protected from a dangerous world eager to belong once he joins it!).
posted by Atreides at 11:58 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
And my favorite series was DS9, but if they did to it what they did to TNG this season in PIC, I'd have hated it. These characters deserve better.
Yeah, I've wanted some (live-action) DS9 characters returning, but after seeing this, unless they can get back some of the old DS9 writers, no thanks.
Throw a bunch of money at Ron Moore or something and stop hiring hacks, geez.
posted by rhymedirective at 12:25 PM on April 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I've wanted some (live-action) DS9 characters returning, but after seeing this, unless they can get back some of the old DS9 writers, no thanks.
Throw a bunch of money at Ron Moore or something and stop hiring hacks, geez.
posted by rhymedirective at 12:25 PM on April 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I wouldn't even know Terry Matalas' name if people didn't keep talking about him -- I generally don't have any interest in showrunners or attempt to armchair-psychoanalyze them in search of a unified theory of why particular things happened in a TV show and not other things that I would have preferred. I can barely tell the classic Trek showrunners apart; I just know that most of their surnames start with B and some of them were sexist.
I think that when the M'Talas system was first mentioned in one of the early episodes I had no idea that it was a reference to something until people started pointing it out. Similarly, I would have no idea that the New Jersey was a reference to something if a hundred superfans poring over pixelated screenshots of the Fleet Museum hadn't spotted the odd ship out and started complaining about it. That could have been avoided if the museum had been bigger, and had many more ships in it that hadn't specifically been referenced before, but I guess that would have made it less plausible for it to have such a small staff that nobody would notice all the hijinks.
In any other show these would be throwaway easter eggs. A decade from now they will be throwaway easter eggs, and nobody will care.
posted by confluency at 12:51 PM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think that when the M'Talas system was first mentioned in one of the early episodes I had no idea that it was a reference to something until people started pointing it out. Similarly, I would have no idea that the New Jersey was a reference to something if a hundred superfans poring over pixelated screenshots of the Fleet Museum hadn't spotted the odd ship out and started complaining about it. That could have been avoided if the museum had been bigger, and had many more ships in it that hadn't specifically been referenced before, but I guess that would have made it less plausible for it to have such a small staff that nobody would notice all the hijinks.
In any other show these would be throwaway easter eggs. A decade from now they will be throwaway easter eggs, and nobody will care.
posted by confluency at 12:51 PM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I felt like they should have at least mentioned the option to execute Jack to save everyone in the Federation.
I felt the trench run would have made more sense if they had just taken the saucer (or the not-the-saucer) section in. Is this the only complaint about underservicing the fan?
The ship exhibits at the museum are really far apart. Why would you design it like that?
Did Crusher get dealt a handful of threes by Data? Referencing 'Cause and Effect' as well as the TNG finale card game?
posted by biffa at 2:21 PM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
I felt the trench run would have made more sense if they had just taken the saucer (or the not-the-saucer) section in. Is this the only complaint about underservicing the fan?
The ship exhibits at the museum are really far apart. Why would you design it like that?
Did Crusher get dealt a handful of threes by Data? Referencing 'Cause and Effect' as well as the TNG finale card game?
posted by biffa at 2:21 PM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
yeah it is very funny to me that they almost certainly should have detached the saucer for the Death Star run but somehow missed that bit of fan pandering
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:26 PM on April 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:26 PM on April 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
The thing about Matalas putting in heaps of references about himself just reinforces his arrogance. I didn't care that Brannon Braga made the site of First Contact with the Vulcans the city he grew up in but he'd earned that after years of working on the show. I know the planet is from his days on ENT but he made a choice to reference our multiple times, including in this finale for no other reason than mentioning his own name again.
Yeah, in a few years time, no one will know or care but that's mostly because I think this show will fade from memory. Unless he runs Legacy and then I'll be done with Trek except SNW.
posted by crossoverman at 4:16 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, in a few years time, no one will know or care but that's mostly because I think this show will fade from memory. Unless he runs Legacy and then I'll be done with Trek except SNW.
posted by crossoverman at 4:16 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm left thinking that Star Trek needs a series like Andor; something that builds out the political economy of the Trek universe and the explores the implications of the big galaxy shaking events at a more individual level.
posted by nubs at 5:24 PM on April 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by nubs at 5:24 PM on April 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
...it definitely felt like if this was the final bite of the apple for Picard and Star Trek: The Next Generation, then we wanted it to be a love letter to it obliterate any memory of good storytelling they once employed.
posted by fairmettle at 5:52 PM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 5:52 PM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm left thinking that Star Trek needs a series like Andor; something that builds out the political economy of the Trek universe and the explores the implications of the big galaxy shaking events at a more individual level.
They already made that; it was called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:42 PM on April 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
They already made that; it was called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:42 PM on April 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
Fun fact: The superstition against renaming ships was popularized by ship owners in centuries past as an anti-piracy measure - if the pirates don't rename the boat it's easier to track it down, prove it's originally yours, and get it back. (Not all pirates were dumb enough to go along with this; Queen Anne's Revenge was originally named Concord.) I can imagine that superstition falling by the wayside in a few more centuries of it being presumably a little harder to disguise the theft of a ship by simply renaming it. If not, there are plenty of ceremonies and rituals for renaming a boat without offending Poseidon or the four winds, which...well, presumably they would have to be adapted somewhat, for y'know, spaceships, but I'm sure Starfleet could figure something out.
I almost wonder if there was some kind of fierce rift between the season 2 and 3 writers' rooms.
It's funny you should mention Rise of Skywalker, because I was thinking as I watched this that not since Rise of Skywalker had I seen the 3rd part of something so thoroughly repudiate and undo every single aspect of the 2nd part. I didn't hate this season nearly as much as a lot folks here seem to have, but I also didn't hate Season 2 as much it seems like this season's writer's room did. The whole time during Alice Krige's villainous monologue here, I was just thinking "Jesus these people just want to do completely different things with the concept of the Borg than S2 did and they're just going to pretend S2 never existed" and well...yep. And then they brought Q back (and not Laris!), just in case you thought there was any part of S2 that the S3 writers didn't want to undercut.
Honestly, I think I liked the S1 version of the "future of the Borg" the best - neither easily redeemed into a force for good, nor wholly monstrous, just...something broken and messy that other people need to help clean up. Felt the most "true", to me. But I guess since none of the seasons' Borg really directly referenced the others there's room to simply say "The Borg are vast and contain multitudes". Anyways, I will headcanon that one of the few positive things to come out of a huge percentage of Starfleet getting temporarily assimilated is a massive reduction in prejudice against xBs in Starfleet and the Federation generally, following the events of this episode.
All that said, I actually did like this wrapup overall. Was the reversion of the assimilated Starfleet too quick? Yes. Was there any real addressing of the death toll, or the psychological toll on the survivors? Well, aside from the fact that Troi is clearly back to working full-time as a counselor (hence her holding even Data to a time limit), from which I infer a massive shortage of counseling available relative to the number of people who need it, no. But that was never going to happen; I'm not even sure how it could have been addressed satisfactorily in anything short of an entire 'nother season. I also wasn't too fussed about the Enterprise-D suddenly being able to trench run like it's the Millenium Falcon in disguise - if there's one thing rewatching TNG demonstrates, it is that Data has always been hilariously overpowered compared to a normal crew member (like, there was that one episode where he single-handedly seized control of the entire ship right out from under their noses) so I was more surprised to see the other crew members doubting him and forcing him to justify it with his "gut" than I was to see that he was capable of flying the ship with previously-thought-impossible grace and precision.
But everybody got their moment to shine, the stakes felt high but the resolution mostly felt earned, nobody did anything wildly out of character and the acting was all on point, they didn't go for any unnecessary deaths or pathos, and overall they pretty much stuck the landing. And ending the episode with a poker game? That was a genuinely inspired choice. (Wish all the fanservice-y nostalgia had felt that natural.) Like confluency, I consider this season (and all three seasons, TBH) to be net positive experiences, even if there are dodgy bits in all 3. And honestly - that's just Star Trek, to me. There's not a single season of any Star Trek that doesn't have parts I could just as soon leave; it's just harder to keep the good and discard the bad when it's more serialized and less episodic.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:09 PM on April 21, 2023 [18 favorites]
I almost wonder if there was some kind of fierce rift between the season 2 and 3 writers' rooms.
It's funny you should mention Rise of Skywalker, because I was thinking as I watched this that not since Rise of Skywalker had I seen the 3rd part of something so thoroughly repudiate and undo every single aspect of the 2nd part. I didn't hate this season nearly as much as a lot folks here seem to have, but I also didn't hate Season 2 as much it seems like this season's writer's room did. The whole time during Alice Krige's villainous monologue here, I was just thinking "Jesus these people just want to do completely different things with the concept of the Borg than S2 did and they're just going to pretend S2 never existed" and well...yep. And then they brought Q back (and not Laris!), just in case you thought there was any part of S2 that the S3 writers didn't want to undercut.
Honestly, I think I liked the S1 version of the "future of the Borg" the best - neither easily redeemed into a force for good, nor wholly monstrous, just...something broken and messy that other people need to help clean up. Felt the most "true", to me. But I guess since none of the seasons' Borg really directly referenced the others there's room to simply say "The Borg are vast and contain multitudes". Anyways, I will headcanon that one of the few positive things to come out of a huge percentage of Starfleet getting temporarily assimilated is a massive reduction in prejudice against xBs in Starfleet and the Federation generally, following the events of this episode.
All that said, I actually did like this wrapup overall. Was the reversion of the assimilated Starfleet too quick? Yes. Was there any real addressing of the death toll, or the psychological toll on the survivors? Well, aside from the fact that Troi is clearly back to working full-time as a counselor (hence her holding even Data to a time limit), from which I infer a massive shortage of counseling available relative to the number of people who need it, no. But that was never going to happen; I'm not even sure how it could have been addressed satisfactorily in anything short of an entire 'nother season. I also wasn't too fussed about the Enterprise-D suddenly being able to trench run like it's the Millenium Falcon in disguise - if there's one thing rewatching TNG demonstrates, it is that Data has always been hilariously overpowered compared to a normal crew member (like, there was that one episode where he single-handedly seized control of the entire ship right out from under their noses) so I was more surprised to see the other crew members doubting him and forcing him to justify it with his "gut" than I was to see that he was capable of flying the ship with previously-thought-impossible grace and precision.
But everybody got their moment to shine, the stakes felt high but the resolution mostly felt earned, nobody did anything wildly out of character and the acting was all on point, they didn't go for any unnecessary deaths or pathos, and overall they pretty much stuck the landing. And ending the episode with a poker game? That was a genuinely inspired choice. (Wish all the fanservice-y nostalgia had felt that natural.) Like confluency, I consider this season (and all three seasons, TBH) to be net positive experiences, even if there are dodgy bits in all 3. And honestly - that's just Star Trek, to me. There's not a single season of any Star Trek that doesn't have parts I could just as soon leave; it's just harder to keep the good and discard the bad when it's more serialized and less episodic.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:09 PM on April 21, 2023 [18 favorites]
The reason I'm not complaining about this show on Twitter is because Matalas is super on Twitter and very defensive even over good faith criticisms. He was particularly bad last season.
A friend of mine is a romance novelist and has an okay amount of followers, nothing huge of course and certainly not what a TV showrunner would have. But she is very opinionated and has a scathing wit, and I remember she had posted something kind of dissing 12 Monkeys after the first few episodes--it wasn't brutal or anything, just where she thought it was disappointing, and a little snarky. Somehow, even though she's not like famous or anything, he found her tweet and just went ballistic about it in the most childish way. As much as I got into 12 Monkeys, I could never not think of that interaction and how outsized and fragile his ego was that he had to attack a rando on twitter for having An Opinion on his show.
12 Monkeys really stuck the landing to the series end, I thought, and I loved it. But wow did this one not stick the landing for me. I'm glad for the original crew and all, but...that was garbage. They killed off the best new character Trek's had in ages and kept the worst one because he's the best most specialist boy? I had lots of other things to complain about, but I'm too tired.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 10:51 PM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
A friend of mine is a romance novelist and has an okay amount of followers, nothing huge of course and certainly not what a TV showrunner would have. But she is very opinionated and has a scathing wit, and I remember she had posted something kind of dissing 12 Monkeys after the first few episodes--it wasn't brutal or anything, just where she thought it was disappointing, and a little snarky. Somehow, even though she's not like famous or anything, he found her tweet and just went ballistic about it in the most childish way. As much as I got into 12 Monkeys, I could never not think of that interaction and how outsized and fragile his ego was that he had to attack a rando on twitter for having An Opinion on his show.
12 Monkeys really stuck the landing to the series end, I thought, and I loved it. But wow did this one not stick the landing for me. I'm glad for the original crew and all, but...that was garbage. They killed off the best new character Trek's had in ages and kept the worst one because he's the best most specialist boy? I had lots of other things to complain about, but I'm too tired.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 10:51 PM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yep. Shaw was one of the only things I liked about this season. Boring Baby Picard gets a credits stinger, but the actually interesting guy gets killed off so the legacy character can get promoted. I dug the face turn in terms of Seven, but damn. It could have been handled in another way. I would watch the hell out of STAR TREK: SHAW. A show centered around a captain who's that particular flavor of asshole could have been fun.
posted by brundlefly at 1:28 AM on April 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 1:28 AM on April 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
If this had somehow been condensed into a two hour movie, I would have walked out pretty entertained.
Waited for full season, put subtitles on, got cozy with finger comfortably rested on right arrow key. Can confirm.
posted by yoHighness at 2:23 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Waited for full season, put subtitles on, got cozy with finger comfortably rested on right arrow key. Can confirm.
posted by yoHighness at 2:23 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Matalas says that he's always had a plan to bring Shaw back for a spin-off (last week I speculated about the possibilities). My money is still on an EEH, mostly for Doylist reasons.
They clearly wanted to set up Seven as the captain of the Ship Formerly Known as Titan, which... fair. I would really have enjoyed a show about a by-the-book captain trying to rein in his maverick crew and constantly getting dragged kicking and screaming into adventures he was trying to avoid. For me Star Trek has always at its core been an ensemble show, where everyone in the main cast is equally important, but I don't think media execs are really on board with this concept and place a lot more significance on who the captain is... and for reasons of optics, name recognition, publicity, whatever you want to call it, it has to be Seven.
So if they bring Shaw back as Shaw, either he's going to be captaining a different ship or he's going to have been promoted to a different position, which would make him at most a recurring character. If they want him to be a main character on Seven's ship, then he can't just be Shaw, miraculously back from the dead. What would fit the bill is Shaw 2.0, an EEH made out of Shaw's recorded metadata souped up (possibly illicitly) with custom code from Voyager's EMH. A new synthetic lifeform based on Shaw, but legally (and morally) a distinct entity without a captain's rank. It would be interesting to see where they go with that.
posted by confluency at 2:33 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
They clearly wanted to set up Seven as the captain of the Ship Formerly Known as Titan, which... fair. I would really have enjoyed a show about a by-the-book captain trying to rein in his maverick crew and constantly getting dragged kicking and screaming into adventures he was trying to avoid. For me Star Trek has always at its core been an ensemble show, where everyone in the main cast is equally important, but I don't think media execs are really on board with this concept and place a lot more significance on who the captain is... and for reasons of optics, name recognition, publicity, whatever you want to call it, it has to be Seven.
So if they bring Shaw back as Shaw, either he's going to be captaining a different ship or he's going to have been promoted to a different position, which would make him at most a recurring character. If they want him to be a main character on Seven's ship, then he can't just be Shaw, miraculously back from the dead. What would fit the bill is Shaw 2.0, an EEH made out of Shaw's recorded metadata souped up (possibly illicitly) with custom code from Voyager's EMH. A new synthetic lifeform based on Shaw, but legally (and morally) a distinct entity without a captain's rank. It would be interesting to see where they go with that.
posted by confluency at 2:33 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
. I didn't care that Brannon Braga made the site of First Contact with the Vulcans the city he grew up in but he'd earned that after years of working on the show.
I care. I remember the ORIGINAL timeline, where Zefram Cochrane was from Alpha Centauri and only discovered the Warp Effect, not invented the Warp Drive. (See Also: 1980's Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology by Stan Goldstein and Fred Goldstein, illustrated by Rick Sternbach. )
posted by mikelieman at 5:42 AM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
I care. I remember the ORIGINAL timeline, where Zefram Cochrane was from Alpha Centauri and only discovered the Warp Effect, not invented the Warp Drive. (See Also: 1980's Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology by Stan Goldstein and Fred Goldstein, illustrated by Rick Sternbach. )
posted by mikelieman at 5:42 AM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think they will just bring Shaw back in flashbacks.
posted by fimbulvetr at 5:56 AM on April 22, 2023
posted by fimbulvetr at 5:56 AM on April 22, 2023
I had stopped watching Picard after the first couple of episodes of S2, I just wasn't interested. This season I enjoyed immensely, it was what I wanted from the last hurrah of the TNG cast. Three seasons of this would have been dire, but a one season send off was great. I liked seeing the TNG cast together (even Data) and I liked the new cast (even Jack). I really liked Shaw and I hope they find a way of bringing him back.
I think I may feel more charitable about this series than some of the other posters because I had no expectations of it. I knew nothing about it beforehand and only watched it on a friend's recommendation. I was entertained and satisfied, and that is all I want from Star Trek.
posted by antiwiggle at 10:03 AM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think I may feel more charitable about this series than some of the other posters because I had no expectations of it. I knew nothing about it beforehand and only watched it on a friend's recommendation. I was entertained and satisfied, and that is all I want from Star Trek.
posted by antiwiggle at 10:03 AM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
Earlier this morning, I read a comment implying that I must be a moron or a fascist for enjoying a show that you did not, and I could do without that entirely for the rest of my days.
Er, no: you did not read a comment implying that, you read a comment from which you mysteriously inferred that. I referred to neither you nor anyone else by either of these terms. You have also decided I did not like a show which I wrote comments on perhaps fifteen times this season in Fanfare, and on review my harshest words were about seven episodes ago that at that point it was a little underwhelming. Oh, and like a few of us, I found Picard and Riker’s argument on the bridge in “Seventeen Seconds” to be strangely out of character.
I cannot be held responsible for your cryptic conclusions from all this.
...yes, but none claimed they were "starting to see why we have the government we do" after quoting people who liked it. Is there context we're missing?
I think the context you’re missing is the part where I quoted anyone or referred to any particular government, as neither occurred.
Neither of the two mefites I am responding to live in the same country I do; it’s hard to reckon what particular government they think I am referring to (as we definitely do not share one) beyond the abstract government that people refer to when they say, e.g., “You can’t fight city hall.” People who say that do not mean they have been foiled in plotting an attack on a four-storey municipal building in the central business district. In any event, I am not interested in further pursuing this derail.
Here are the particulars, which apparently need some elucidation:
• This season of Picard is, for me, pretty much neck-and-neck with SNW for the most enjoyable stretch of Trek in twenty years or so. Personally, I find Lower Decks too flimsy, Discovery had moments but squandered a lot of potential in umpteen scenes of whispered tearful confessions, and the appeal of Prodigy is elusive at best. The Abrams movies are pretty dire.
• Matalas has weirdly fanfic tendencies, and seems determined to turn the fanservice to 12. This was tolerable for a getting-the-band-back-together season but I think would wear thin indeed if the entire franchise ran this way. As well, people I know in the business tell me he is perhaps not the best person to work with. I merely stated that I disagreed with the fervent hopes I have heard that he becomes the heir to the Trek throne.
People may disagree; this is their prerogative. Note: We’re all fans here, please be nice.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:37 PM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Er, no: you did not read a comment implying that, you read a comment from which you mysteriously inferred that. I referred to neither you nor anyone else by either of these terms. You have also decided I did not like a show which I wrote comments on perhaps fifteen times this season in Fanfare, and on review my harshest words were about seven episodes ago that at that point it was a little underwhelming. Oh, and like a few of us, I found Picard and Riker’s argument on the bridge in “Seventeen Seconds” to be strangely out of character.
I cannot be held responsible for your cryptic conclusions from all this.
...yes, but none claimed they were "starting to see why we have the government we do" after quoting people who liked it. Is there context we're missing?
I think the context you’re missing is the part where I quoted anyone or referred to any particular government, as neither occurred.
Neither of the two mefites I am responding to live in the same country I do; it’s hard to reckon what particular government they think I am referring to (as we definitely do not share one) beyond the abstract government that people refer to when they say, e.g., “You can’t fight city hall.” People who say that do not mean they have been foiled in plotting an attack on a four-storey municipal building in the central business district. In any event, I am not interested in further pursuing this derail.
Here are the particulars, which apparently need some elucidation:
• This season of Picard is, for me, pretty much neck-and-neck with SNW for the most enjoyable stretch of Trek in twenty years or so. Personally, I find Lower Decks too flimsy, Discovery had moments but squandered a lot of potential in umpteen scenes of whispered tearful confessions, and the appeal of Prodigy is elusive at best. The Abrams movies are pretty dire.
• Matalas has weirdly fanfic tendencies, and seems determined to turn the fanservice to 12. This was tolerable for a getting-the-band-back-together season but I think would wear thin indeed if the entire franchise ran this way. As well, people I know in the business tell me he is perhaps not the best person to work with. I merely stated that I disagreed with the fervent hopes I have heard that he becomes the heir to the Trek throne.
People may disagree; this is their prerogative. Note: We’re all fans here, please be nice.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:37 PM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
yeah it is very funny to me that they almost certainly should have detached the saucer for the Death Star run but somehow missed that bit of fan pandering
I've decided Geordie just hasn't gotten around to getting that part of the Enterprise D fixed. There were just so many other things that needed to be done and saucer separation for a museum exhibit is low on his list.
posted by Constance Mirabella at 8:33 PM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've decided Geordie just hasn't gotten around to getting that part of the Enterprise D fixed. There were just so many other things that needed to be done and saucer separation for a museum exhibit is low on his list.
posted by Constance Mirabella at 8:33 PM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
> We’re all fans here
I'm not sure I am any more. Clearly many people here enjoyed the experience, but I wasn't one of them. Season 1 at least made an attempt to build into something new, and season 2 often didn't know what to do with itself, but this... Halfway through season 3 the writers had burned through all of my good will and nostalgia for the original TNG show. Outside of Shaw and bits of Seven, I felt like I was being constantly & condescendingly pandered to, like they were trying to bury me in nostalgia piled upon nostalgia glued together with the laziest, most weightless, magical resolutions.
I grew up on TNG and DS9, and have watched TOS in endless reruns, but between then and now something has clearly changed where this final season just didn't work for me at all. It felt like anti-matter Trek. I was looking forward to SNW's S2 premiere and belatedly checking out Lower Decks, but that desire has evaporated. I feel like I'm completely done with Trek now.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 9:38 PM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure I am any more. Clearly many people here enjoyed the experience, but I wasn't one of them. Season 1 at least made an attempt to build into something new, and season 2 often didn't know what to do with itself, but this... Halfway through season 3 the writers had burned through all of my good will and nostalgia for the original TNG show. Outside of Shaw and bits of Seven, I felt like I was being constantly & condescendingly pandered to, like they were trying to bury me in nostalgia piled upon nostalgia glued together with the laziest, most weightless, magical resolutions.
I grew up on TNG and DS9, and have watched TOS in endless reruns, but between then and now something has clearly changed where this final season just didn't work for me at all. It felt like anti-matter Trek. I was looking forward to SNW's S2 premiere and belatedly checking out Lower Decks, but that desire has evaporated. I feel like I'm completely done with Trek now.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 9:38 PM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
Outside of Shaw and bits of Seven, I felt like I was being constantly & condescendingly pandered to, like they were trying to bury me in nostalgia piled upon nostalgia glued together with the laziest, most weightless, magical resolutions.
I’m 100% with you on that feeling.
I was looking forward to SNW's S2 premiere and belatedly checking out Lower Decks, but that desire has evaporated. I feel like I'm completely done with Trek now.
If you love TNG, I would urge you to watch Lower Decks. It really is a lot of fun, and I think captures the feeling of both poking fun, yet also showing love for Trek.
I do think the Picard series is something I won’t ever watch again. It was too poorly done overall, and doesn’t really go anywhere interesting.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:03 AM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m 100% with you on that feeling.
I was looking forward to SNW's S2 premiere and belatedly checking out Lower Decks, but that desire has evaporated. I feel like I'm completely done with Trek now.
If you love TNG, I would urge you to watch Lower Decks. It really is a lot of fun, and I think captures the feeling of both poking fun, yet also showing love for Trek.
I do think the Picard series is something I won’t ever watch again. It was too poorly done overall, and doesn’t really go anywhere interesting.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:03 AM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've decided Geordie just hasn't gotten around to getting that part of the Enterprise D fixed. There were just so many other things that needed to be done and saucer separation for a museum exhibit is low on his list.
They also would have had to build the battle bridge set, and I doubt that was in the budget. It was apparently a big lift to get the Ent-D bridge built.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:45 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
They also would have had to build the battle bridge set, and I doubt that was in the budget. It was apparently a big lift to get the Ent-D bridge built.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:45 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
...ugh, the Enterprise-G? Come on, that's just insulting.
NCC-1701-ZZZ
posted by fairmettle at 7:06 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
NCC-1701-ZZZ
posted by fairmettle at 7:06 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Shuttlepod Show featuring Todd Stashwick (Captain Shaw) as has gone live.
I simply cannot get into this style of writing, which I first ran across in the Doctor Who reboot. Primarily the clumsy melodrama and that consequences are only a thing if required by the plot (rather than shaping the plot). The atmosphere was so Picard gets crazy with future dune buggies isn't this fun, which entirely destroys any tension we might feel during the utterly predictable action sequences that lead to the climax. Roddenberry attempted drama without conflict in early TNG. This is drama without journeys. The journeys are described, Crusher has had it hard, Raffi has had it hard, Picard might find love again in his later years, Jack's always dealt with some scary feelings, but few moments are barely lived. All drama relies on the audience to connect emotionally and in other ways with a character's plight of course, but this Trek leans on that heavily, perhaps to obscure the massive nonsensical aspects of the plot. No attempt to develop a season long struggle in any meaningful way.
A year later everyone is just happier and got promotions. Ok, sure. But this is 2023, we can see a brief bit on how difficult recovery continues to be, happy to face the challenge, etc., but we only get a promotion bit mixed with more action in apprehending a changeling. If there was so much destruction and this show is supposed to respect mental health then why not just give it some small due? Doesn't have to be the main focus but putting it under the proverbial carpet is very weak story telling. Particularly at this time when more people than perhaps ever before are aware of how civilization wide events such as say, a pandemic, can and did and does affect themselves and other people in variety of ways, many of them personally stressful and many of them at a continuing threat to society level. I'm fine with a positive message but having what would be massive societal consequences not really be slightly acknowledged is again, weak story telling. Perhaps it's a classic case of all the possible stories presented the show chose the plot that had a lot of action and the one that was least interesting to me.
Not expecting Star Trek for adults which we got with Andor, but I guess I wanted an entertaining, good story with these characters that makes an ounce of sense rather than a close to constant rather than occasional dose of nostalgia. It was dull and boring. We all like different styles and modes of story telling. This method is simply not for me. The Trek pull is strong of course! I enjoyed SNW except for a couple of episodes (every Trek has stinker episodes) so looking forward to that and of course Lower Decks but won't bother with any Matalas Trek shows.
posted by juiceCake at 12:22 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
I simply cannot get into this style of writing, which I first ran across in the Doctor Who reboot. Primarily the clumsy melodrama and that consequences are only a thing if required by the plot (rather than shaping the plot). The atmosphere was so Picard gets crazy with future dune buggies isn't this fun, which entirely destroys any tension we might feel during the utterly predictable action sequences that lead to the climax. Roddenberry attempted drama without conflict in early TNG. This is drama without journeys. The journeys are described, Crusher has had it hard, Raffi has had it hard, Picard might find love again in his later years, Jack's always dealt with some scary feelings, but few moments are barely lived. All drama relies on the audience to connect emotionally and in other ways with a character's plight of course, but this Trek leans on that heavily, perhaps to obscure the massive nonsensical aspects of the plot. No attempt to develop a season long struggle in any meaningful way.
A year later everyone is just happier and got promotions. Ok, sure. But this is 2023, we can see a brief bit on how difficult recovery continues to be, happy to face the challenge, etc., but we only get a promotion bit mixed with more action in apprehending a changeling. If there was so much destruction and this show is supposed to respect mental health then why not just give it some small due? Doesn't have to be the main focus but putting it under the proverbial carpet is very weak story telling. Particularly at this time when more people than perhaps ever before are aware of how civilization wide events such as say, a pandemic, can and did and does affect themselves and other people in variety of ways, many of them personally stressful and many of them at a continuing threat to society level. I'm fine with a positive message but having what would be massive societal consequences not really be slightly acknowledged is again, weak story telling. Perhaps it's a classic case of all the possible stories presented the show chose the plot that had a lot of action and the one that was least interesting to me.
Not expecting Star Trek for adults which we got with Andor, but I guess I wanted an entertaining, good story with these characters that makes an ounce of sense rather than a close to constant rather than occasional dose of nostalgia. It was dull and boring. We all like different styles and modes of story telling. This method is simply not for me. The Trek pull is strong of course! I enjoyed SNW except for a couple of episodes (every Trek has stinker episodes) so looking forward to that and of course Lower Decks but won't bother with any Matalas Trek shows.
posted by juiceCake at 12:22 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's bizarre to me that with the near-limitless resources of Disney and Paramount, neither Star Wars nor Star Trek seems capable of putting together a coherent multi-film/multi-season plan and sticking the landing. It's really mind-boggling that they don't have studio executives insisting on a detailed outline before they start filming--especially if you're getting octogenarian Patrick Stewart to step back into the role--don't waste this chance.
In some ways, I did like season three--for all its flaws--the best, simply because what I really wanted was to see the entire TNG crew back together and give them a better send off than Nemesis did. Picard at least accomplished that. What I wish they had done, in retrospect, was take this basic idea of a Changeling/Borg team up and spread it out over two or three seasons, but with less mystery box stuff. You could get ten great, tense episodes out of the Changelings infiltrating Starfleet. It should be episode seven or eight before we find out that a simple blood test won't detect them anymore, and then we discover that someone we thought was one of our old Next Gen pals was actually a Changeling the whole time. Season two is the battle to discover all the covert Changelings in Starfleet and expose them. At the end of that season, we've won, everyone feels secure, and the post-credits scene is a Changeling telling the Borg Queen that they've had to leave all the Federation vessels, but it doesn't matter--every transporter on every Federation ship has been updated. Then S3 begins with mass assimilation and we've got nine more episodes to undo that, while trying to kill as few of the StarFleet Borg as a possible. Blah blah blah, everyone plays poker.
Anyway--I'm available as a show runner, Paramount. $2 million a year and I'm all yours.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:54 PM on April 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
In some ways, I did like season three--for all its flaws--the best, simply because what I really wanted was to see the entire TNG crew back together and give them a better send off than Nemesis did. Picard at least accomplished that. What I wish they had done, in retrospect, was take this basic idea of a Changeling/Borg team up and spread it out over two or three seasons, but with less mystery box stuff. You could get ten great, tense episodes out of the Changelings infiltrating Starfleet. It should be episode seven or eight before we find out that a simple blood test won't detect them anymore, and then we discover that someone we thought was one of our old Next Gen pals was actually a Changeling the whole time. Season two is the battle to discover all the covert Changelings in Starfleet and expose them. At the end of that season, we've won, everyone feels secure, and the post-credits scene is a Changeling telling the Borg Queen that they've had to leave all the Federation vessels, but it doesn't matter--every transporter on every Federation ship has been updated. Then S3 begins with mass assimilation and we've got nine more episodes to undo that, while trying to kill as few of the StarFleet Borg as a possible. Blah blah blah, everyone plays poker.
Anyway--I'm available as a show runner, Paramount. $2 million a year and I'm all yours.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:54 PM on April 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
It's bizarre to me that with the near-limitless resources of Disney and Paramount, neither Star Wars nor Star Trek seems capable of putting together a coherent multi-film/multi-season plan and sticking the landing.
True. It’s especially puzzling because the Star Wars people have their stablemates in the MCU to look at. It’s palpably not easy but neither is it impossible. Paramount has more of an excuse, because I guess their current other successful franchise is Mission Impossible, which hinges on one actor willing to do absurd stunts and they release a movie only during leap years.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:36 PM on April 23, 2023
True. It’s especially puzzling because the Star Wars people have their stablemates in the MCU to look at. It’s palpably not easy but neither is it impossible. Paramount has more of an excuse, because I guess their current other successful franchise is Mission Impossible, which hinges on one actor willing to do absurd stunts and they release a movie only during leap years.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:36 PM on April 23, 2023
Honestly, I would not have wanted this story serialized over three seasons. Structurally, I think three 10-episode arcs was fine, but it would have been better if the full cast were more involved from the get go.
One season giving Picard his reflections on mortality and Data a nice end and/or new beginning, maybe a season featuring some Klingon stuff involving Worf and tying in Picard's own diplomatic work with them from way back, then finally something with the Borg and Changelings to cap it all off. All seasons giving different TNG (and DS9/VOY) characters far more time to check in and get some focus time in various measures.
posted by Pryde at 8:08 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
One season giving Picard his reflections on mortality and Data a nice end and/or new beginning, maybe a season featuring some Klingon stuff involving Worf and tying in Picard's own diplomatic work with them from way back, then finally something with the Borg and Changelings to cap it all off. All seasons giving different TNG (and DS9/VOY) characters far more time to check in and get some focus time in various measures.
posted by Pryde at 8:08 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Keith R.A. DeCandido's review on Tor.com.
posted by Coaticass at 8:12 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Coaticass at 8:12 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
One of the things I like about Trek is that it's messy. I would not want some bloated MCU-style plan for Trek that treats it like disposable content. No one is going to be watching Iron Man 3 in a hundred years, but they'll be watching Trek.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:32 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rhymedirective at 6:32 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
At the same time, I suspect people will still enjoy the Russo Brothers’ MCU movies for some time, while huge chunks of Trek will fall away. Here is the summary of a Picard episode from less than a year ago.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:28 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Picard must face the ghosts of his past when he and his crew are attacked by a new incarnation of an old enemy; Seven and Raffi face Jurati in a final showdown.Can anyone tell me the title without looking it up? Recall an important scene? Quote a single line of dialogue?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:28 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I remember scenes from last season, really across different episodes in the season. Seven belting out a song, Picard chilling with Gainan, the whole thing about dealing with his father issues...which were based on incomplete knowledge of what was going on and oh.
More seriously, I can remember maybe three to four episode titles from 7 seasons of TNG. Probably not that many lines. And I've rewatched that show at least three to four times. I dunno if going for instant recall and memory of an episode title as a definitive test for enduring enjoyment and appreciation. At least as applied to all fans.
posted by Atreides at 11:16 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
More seriously, I can remember maybe three to four episode titles from 7 seasons of TNG. Probably not that many lines. And I've rewatched that show at least three to four times. I dunno if going for instant recall and memory of an episode title as a definitive test for enduring enjoyment and appreciation. At least as applied to all fans.
posted by Atreides at 11:16 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
One of the things I like about Trek is that it's messy.
I truly don't know what this means. While continuity can be fuzzy and the bloated lengths of the original series and 90s Trek led to episodes that were churned out rather than lovingly crafted, it all feels of a piece. The 90s shows have distinct voices but feel like they live in the same universe. Current Trek doesn't even cohere between seasons of the same show, let alone between shows.
Do I want an MCU universe? No. That's too much. Could I live with 3 live-action Trek series that come out every year or so and feel like they are in the same universe? I sure could. I think one of the big problems with the franchise as it is - SNW is set a century before PIC and DISCO is now another 800 years ahead. Whereas, although TNG and DS9 and VOY weren't all on at exactly the same time, the crossover potential was there. Even if Voyager was at the other end of the galaxy.
The MCU builds on itself - and now it's eating itself, admittedly. Trek is so spread out, they don't feel like the same universe. Any crossovers rely on time travel which the 90s shows tried to use sparingly. Or at least find unique ways of using time loops, etc.
Trek is messy now. It's not one of the things that draws me to the franchise. What I like about the show - it can be a whole lot of different things. The same show can be a drama and a comedy and tonally it can change week to week. SNW can do that but DISCO and PICARD haven't managed it.
posted by crossoverman at 1:03 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I truly don't know what this means. While continuity can be fuzzy and the bloated lengths of the original series and 90s Trek led to episodes that were churned out rather than lovingly crafted, it all feels of a piece. The 90s shows have distinct voices but feel like they live in the same universe. Current Trek doesn't even cohere between seasons of the same show, let alone between shows.
Do I want an MCU universe? No. That's too much. Could I live with 3 live-action Trek series that come out every year or so and feel like they are in the same universe? I sure could. I think one of the big problems with the franchise as it is - SNW is set a century before PIC and DISCO is now another 800 years ahead. Whereas, although TNG and DS9 and VOY weren't all on at exactly the same time, the crossover potential was there. Even if Voyager was at the other end of the galaxy.
The MCU builds on itself - and now it's eating itself, admittedly. Trek is so spread out, they don't feel like the same universe. Any crossovers rely on time travel which the 90s shows tried to use sparingly. Or at least find unique ways of using time loops, etc.
Trek is messy now. It's not one of the things that draws me to the franchise. What I like about the show - it can be a whole lot of different things. The same show can be a drama and a comedy and tonally it can change week to week. SNW can do that but DISCO and PICARD haven't managed it.
posted by crossoverman at 1:03 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I concur.
The MCU builds on itself - and now it's eating itself, admittedly. Trek is so spread out, they don't feel like the same universe. Any crossovers rely on time travel which the 90s shows tried to use sparingly. Or at least find unique ways of using time loops, etc.
McCoy showing up in the first episode of TNG, worked fine. Scotty showing up later in TNG, also worked great. Spock slammed it home with his appearances. Only one of these even bothered to find a way to wave a wand to get a character into the series whereas the other two were just "the person is older." This all worked. Then when we did have a show set in a different time period from the TNG era, we had the finale with Riker and Troi that really undermined the finale of said show. It didn't really work. It was a delightful surprise for TNG fans, but it did Enterprise no favors.
I'm okay with there being different Trek shows ongoing, but I'm definitely not eager for them to lean this way and that to find ways for the characters to crossover.
posted by Atreides at 6:34 AM on April 25, 2023
The MCU builds on itself - and now it's eating itself, admittedly. Trek is so spread out, they don't feel like the same universe. Any crossovers rely on time travel which the 90s shows tried to use sparingly. Or at least find unique ways of using time loops, etc.
McCoy showing up in the first episode of TNG, worked fine. Scotty showing up later in TNG, also worked great. Spock slammed it home with his appearances. Only one of these even bothered to find a way to wave a wand to get a character into the series whereas the other two were just "the person is older." This all worked. Then when we did have a show set in a different time period from the TNG era, we had the finale with Riker and Troi that really undermined the finale of said show. It didn't really work. It was a delightful surprise for TNG fans, but it did Enterprise no favors.
I'm okay with there being different Trek shows ongoing, but I'm definitely not eager for them to lean this way and that to find ways for the characters to crossover.
posted by Atreides at 6:34 AM on April 25, 2023
I'm glad that a lot of fans, and from what I can tell, most of the returning TNG cast, really enjoyed this season. I certainly experienced many moments of pleasure, while also regretting the many opportunities to make it better that were missed.
The larger contours of the story were, for the most part, fine, IMO. Had the writing been more adroit in terms of some of the actual dialogue, some of the off-key character choices, and some of the sloppier plotting, it could have been masterful.
In short, I think there were a lot of moments that came off as cringey that would have worked quite well had they simply been better executed.
I didn't mind the deep-cut callbacks -- and I truly loved some of them -- but it felt like Matalas jam-packed the show with those, while neglecting the kind of really thoughtful script-polishing that would have elevated the material.
I wonder how this season would have played if Michael Chabon, or someone of his literary caliber, had had more of a hand in it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:32 PM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
The larger contours of the story were, for the most part, fine, IMO. Had the writing been more adroit in terms of some of the actual dialogue, some of the off-key character choices, and some of the sloppier plotting, it could have been masterful.
In short, I think there were a lot of moments that came off as cringey that would have worked quite well had they simply been better executed.
I didn't mind the deep-cut callbacks -- and I truly loved some of them -- but it felt like Matalas jam-packed the show with those, while neglecting the kind of really thoughtful script-polishing that would have elevated the material.
I wonder how this season would have played if Michael Chabon, or someone of his literary caliber, had had more of a hand in it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:32 PM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I liked Picard S1 as it aired and I think it's my favourite season of this show because of what it was attempting and it got most of the way there. I don't think Chabon really knew how to make television, though it did in many ways feel like a good book - and I really appreciated a Trek that had allusions and subtext and struggled with the story it was presenting. It was still messy and I don't think the resolution of the Romulan plot worked. I think Data dying for a second time really worked but I'm not sure putting Picard in a "robot body" ever did - as a capper to that season or after. (One of the things I truly disliked about this season was retconning the previous seasons. Okay, season 2 was a garbage fire, but I think you gotta live with it rather than pretending it never happened.)
Chabon wasn't interested in a TNG reunion. He gave us a lovely insight into Riker and Troi... and the this season made it seem like that episode was a whole lie. Could he have made this season better? Perhaps. But his and Matalas' view of Trek are vastly different. Also, Chabon is a really great writer. Matalas doesn't even know that "defeat" and "farewell" are just words and not "turns of phrase".
posted by crossoverman at 4:01 PM on April 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Chabon wasn't interested in a TNG reunion. He gave us a lovely insight into Riker and Troi... and the this season made it seem like that episode was a whole lie. Could he have made this season better? Perhaps. But his and Matalas' view of Trek are vastly different. Also, Chabon is a really great writer. Matalas doesn't even know that "defeat" and "farewell" are just words and not "turns of phrase".
posted by crossoverman at 4:01 PM on April 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm mainly disappointed that the whole thing wasn't a plot by the aliens from TNG:Conspiracy who are all secretly working for DaiMon Bok.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:41 PM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:41 PM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I remember scenes from last season, really across different episodes in the season. Seven belting out a song
Ironically enough, that was Jurati. Not Seven.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:23 PM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ironically enough, that was Jurati. Not Seven.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:23 PM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jurati singing Pat Benetar to give the Borg Queen a rush of endorphins was a real low point for Star Trek and, perhaps, television.
posted by crossoverman at 10:31 PM on April 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 10:31 PM on April 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
My (probably very last) comment about the Goldsmanverse Star Trek is that they really missed a trick by not incorporating any of the writers that made these characters so beloved to begin with. The performers are key but they're really not the whole thing, not in the least.
Take care ya'll.
posted by StarkRoads at 10:54 PM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Take care ya'll.
posted by StarkRoads at 10:54 PM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I truly don't know what this means.
It means that I like Trek when they try different things without creating some sort of master plan and don't subsume all the shows into a particular visual and dialogue house style, like the MCU. Certainly there is some room for experimentation within the MCU, but most of it looks and sounds the same.
Current Trek shows:
DIS, LD, PRO, SNW. All very different from each other with different tones, different looks, etc.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:28 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
It means that I like Trek when they try different things without creating some sort of master plan and don't subsume all the shows into a particular visual and dialogue house style, like the MCU. Certainly there is some room for experimentation within the MCU, but most of it looks and sounds the same.
Current Trek shows:
DIS, LD, PRO, SNW. All very different from each other with different tones, different looks, etc.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:28 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
The MCU builds on itself - and now it's eating itself, admittedly. Trek is so spread out, they don't feel like the same universe. Any crossovers rely on time travel which the 90s shows tried to use sparingly. Or at least find unique ways of using time loops, etc.
Also: I like that BermanTrek was so averse to even referencing other Trek characters, and when it started to, it used them extremely sparingly and only when there was a story to tell. Sure, McCoy appeared in the pilot of TNG, but that was it for years. BermanTrek was very aware that it needed to establish itself as its own thing and not rely on TOS, because, it's probably hard to believe in 2023, but in 1987 Trek was not a "franchise".
Now that Trek has established itself as a legitimate going concern, they don't have to worry about the shows standing on their own two feet as much, and I think this is making the Trek universe feel small and hollow. Burnham is Spock's sister! Kirk and Uhura and Chapel and Spock are characters on SNW! PRO has a hologram of Janeway! and on and on and on.
There are so many stories of scripts knocking around the Trek Paramount offices for years before someone found the right angle for the story, or a new show was in production where it worked better, or whatever. There's none of that now and all the mystery box serialized Treks (DIS and PIC) feel like third drafts. They just don't spend enough time really working on them to get them as polished as they possibly can, and part of the reason is that they literally can't. Episode 5 needs to be a bridge from episode 4 to episode 6, and if it's not really working they can't just toss it in a drawer and ask the writers room "who's got something else?"
Ironically enough, the only season of mystery box Trek that didn't feel like it needed another couple of drafts of polishing was PIC S1, and that was all Chabon, IMO.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:40 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Also: I like that BermanTrek was so averse to even referencing other Trek characters, and when it started to, it used them extremely sparingly and only when there was a story to tell. Sure, McCoy appeared in the pilot of TNG, but that was it for years. BermanTrek was very aware that it needed to establish itself as its own thing and not rely on TOS, because, it's probably hard to believe in 2023, but in 1987 Trek was not a "franchise".
Now that Trek has established itself as a legitimate going concern, they don't have to worry about the shows standing on their own two feet as much, and I think this is making the Trek universe feel small and hollow. Burnham is Spock's sister! Kirk and Uhura and Chapel and Spock are characters on SNW! PRO has a hologram of Janeway! and on and on and on.
There are so many stories of scripts knocking around the Trek Paramount offices for years before someone found the right angle for the story, or a new show was in production where it worked better, or whatever. There's none of that now and all the mystery box serialized Treks (DIS and PIC) feel like third drafts. They just don't spend enough time really working on them to get them as polished as they possibly can, and part of the reason is that they literally can't. Episode 5 needs to be a bridge from episode 4 to episode 6, and if it's not really working they can't just toss it in a drawer and ask the writers room "who's got something else?"
Ironically enough, the only season of mystery box Trek that didn't feel like it needed another couple of drafts of polishing was PIC S1, and that was all Chabon, IMO.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:40 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ironically enough, that was Jurati. Not Seven.
This is what I get for rewatching Voyager at the same time. Zinged myself.
posted by Atreides at 7:09 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is what I get for rewatching Voyager at the same time. Zinged myself.
posted by Atreides at 7:09 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think this is making the Trek universe feel small and hollow
Agreed. When (Anton) Chekhov’s voice appeared, I rolled my eyes pretty hard. Hundreds (thousands?) of species in the federation, billions (trillions?) of human beings kicking around, and we keep running into the same handful of families.
Somehow, Palpatine returned.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:19 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
Agreed. When (Anton) Chekhov’s voice appeared, I rolled my eyes pretty hard. Hundreds (thousands?) of species in the federation, billions (trillions?) of human beings kicking around, and we keep running into the same handful of families.
Somehow, Palpatine returned.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:19 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
I liked Picard S1 as it aired and I think it's my favourite season of this show because of what it was attempting and it got most of the way there. I don't think Chabon really knew how to make television, though it did in many ways feel like a good book - and I really appreciated a Trek that had allusions and subtext and struggled with the story it was presenting.
Agree 100%. It was the most thoughtful and carefully conceived, with the best character work and dialogue. A lot of fans just wanted a TNG reunion, however.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:16 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Agree 100%. It was the most thoughtful and carefully conceived, with the best character work and dialogue. A lot of fans just wanted a TNG reunion, however.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:16 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Okay, rhymedirective, turns out we agree quite a bit! Even 90s Trek, which felt like more of a piece than current Trek, wasn't just a reference factory. It was very sparing. Interestingly, since it's quite different, DS9 might have had the most crossovers (?) and pulled in Klingons from TOS, had a mirror Tuvok, sent Bashir to TNG, literally time travelled back to Trouble with Tribbles... But even those things felt like a once-per-season event.
Matalas has taken to justifying his reference factory by saying "If you got together with friends of 35 years, wouldn't you talk about old times?" And sure, of course. But also we'd also be living our current lives with current interests and things we do apart from each other, even if we did work together on a Starship for seven years and spent almost every waking hour together.
There are hints to other lives but most of it feels pretty surface level. For every suggestion that these characters have gained new skills, we spend much more time having them do things we missed them doing. Even Data who isn't Data flies the ship like Data could even though he's in a whole new body. Deanna has had a whole life and two children, but one of them is dead and the other one is never mentioned and the last thing we see her doing is a counselling session.
Truly the least interesting choices all around.
posted by crossoverman at 4:02 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Matalas has taken to justifying his reference factory by saying "If you got together with friends of 35 years, wouldn't you talk about old times?" And sure, of course. But also we'd also be living our current lives with current interests and things we do apart from each other, even if we did work together on a Starship for seven years and spent almost every waking hour together.
There are hints to other lives but most of it feels pretty surface level. For every suggestion that these characters have gained new skills, we spend much more time having them do things we missed them doing. Even Data who isn't Data flies the ship like Data could even though he's in a whole new body. Deanna has had a whole life and two children, but one of them is dead and the other one is never mentioned and the last thing we see her doing is a counselling session.
Truly the least interesting choices all around.
posted by crossoverman at 4:02 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Matalas has taken to justifying his reference factory by saying "If you got together with friends of 35 years, wouldn't you talk about old times?"
One of the problems with this is that you also should try to avoid making the audience think about other things they've watched that they might have enjoyed more than what you are serving up, which is what I think this season kept running into (at least for me); many references reminded me of movies or episodes that I had good memories of, and then the question becomes why I wasn't re-watching that. Maybe if there had been something new being said, something being built from the references...but it didn't do that.
Deanna has had a whole life and two children, but one of them is dead and the other one is never mentioned and the last thing we see her doing is a counselling session.
Not only that, but she's being a shitty counsellor - effectively rolling her eyes at her client.
posted by nubs at 7:50 AM on April 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
One of the problems with this is that you also should try to avoid making the audience think about other things they've watched that they might have enjoyed more than what you are serving up, which is what I think this season kept running into (at least for me); many references reminded me of movies or episodes that I had good memories of, and then the question becomes why I wasn't re-watching that. Maybe if there had been something new being said, something being built from the references...but it didn't do that.
Deanna has had a whole life and two children, but one of them is dead and the other one is never mentioned and the last thing we see her doing is a counselling session.
Not only that, but she's being a shitty counsellor - effectively rolling her eyes at her client.
posted by nubs at 7:50 AM on April 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not only that, but she's being a shitty counsellor - effectively rolling her eyes at her client.
Also browsing vacations on the PADD while pretending to take notes.
posted by dr_dank at 10:57 AM on April 27, 2023
Also browsing vacations on the PADD while pretending to take notes.
posted by dr_dank at 10:57 AM on April 27, 2023
Yeah, mental health is a big fuckin' joke, right? Har har. Great job, Picard writers!
posted by Fleebnork at 11:18 AM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Fleebnork at 11:18 AM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Frakes will be on the Shuttlepod Show, Sunday April 30th.
posted by juiceCake at 11:34 AM on April 27, 2023
posted by juiceCake at 11:34 AM on April 27, 2023
many references reminded me of movies or episodes that I had good memories of
Explicit Star Wars and Aliens references in this episode. Hard not to see the Borg Queen as a Geiger creature, effectively making her the Alien Queen from Aliens. But instead of Ripley and Newt, Picard is rescuing Jack. Makes the sidelining of Beverley/mothers even more egregious.
Once Jack was revealed as Picard's son, Bev was basically a supporting character again. It was all about Picard/Jack's relationship and very little about how Bev was processing it. Deanna continued to grieve her dead child while never mentioning her alive child. Geordi has two kids but their mother is never mentioned. (While I was bracing myself for a Leah Brahms reference, it almost made me happy that Matalas avoided that - except that meant disappearing another mother.)
Women got it really bad this season. Two villains, both women. Ro and Shelby came back, only to be killed off. (Matalas is saying in interviews that neither of them actually died, but WTF?) Deanna was a harpie wife in flashbacks. She was missing for most of the season and now she's a bad counsellor. Never mind that the whole season is based on Bev keeping Jack secret for 20 years - a character turn that I just cannot reconcile at all.
posted by crossoverman at 4:36 PM on April 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Explicit Star Wars and Aliens references in this episode. Hard not to see the Borg Queen as a Geiger creature, effectively making her the Alien Queen from Aliens. But instead of Ripley and Newt, Picard is rescuing Jack. Makes the sidelining of Beverley/mothers even more egregious.
Once Jack was revealed as Picard's son, Bev was basically a supporting character again. It was all about Picard/Jack's relationship and very little about how Bev was processing it. Deanna continued to grieve her dead child while never mentioning her alive child. Geordi has two kids but their mother is never mentioned. (While I was bracing myself for a Leah Brahms reference, it almost made me happy that Matalas avoided that - except that meant disappearing another mother.)
Women got it really bad this season. Two villains, both women. Ro and Shelby came back, only to be killed off. (Matalas is saying in interviews that neither of them actually died, but WTF?) Deanna was a harpie wife in flashbacks. She was missing for most of the season and now she's a bad counsellor. Never mind that the whole season is based on Bev keeping Jack secret for 20 years - a character turn that I just cannot reconcile at all.
posted by crossoverman at 4:36 PM on April 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't think the scene with Data and Troi was intended as a slam against counseling. Deanna would empathically be aware of how Data was doing. After all, she sensed him having fun while flying the Enterprise through the Borg ship. If he was someone who was struggling or actively looking for help, I have no doubt she would have been more engaging with him. I think the setup, especially referencing going over the scheduled time again, is that Data just wants someone to talk about his new experiences with, and Deanna knows that Data just wants that ability to share (and allows him to keep doing so, instead of cutting him off sharply at the appointed time).
Women were villains, yes, and quite successful ones at that. We also had a major focus on Seven as a hero, willing to buck her captain to do the right thing and earns a captaincy - even before the events of the season, and of the younger crew, Crash La Forge definitely received the most attention (as did her sister). The TNG women all came across as pretty competent. Beverly figuring out the galactic contractions, showing off some pretty darn good tactical skills, Deanna immediately seeing through the Changeling that came to their home, and also being instrumental in locating Riker, Worf, and everyone else inside the cube. I think there was a conscious decision to try and be a bit more inclusive choosing women for certain roles (La Forge's children, Ro's role in the series, Shelby easily could've been Jellicoe, and obviously, the decision to make Janeway basically the head of Starfleet).
I don't think women alone, were treated bad this season, so much as all the characters suffered from some bad or questionable decisions.
posted by Atreides at 6:58 AM on April 28, 2023
Women were villains, yes, and quite successful ones at that. We also had a major focus on Seven as a hero, willing to buck her captain to do the right thing and earns a captaincy - even before the events of the season, and of the younger crew, Crash La Forge definitely received the most attention (as did her sister). The TNG women all came across as pretty competent. Beverly figuring out the galactic contractions, showing off some pretty darn good tactical skills, Deanna immediately seeing through the Changeling that came to their home, and also being instrumental in locating Riker, Worf, and everyone else inside the cube. I think there was a conscious decision to try and be a bit more inclusive choosing women for certain roles (La Forge's children, Ro's role in the series, Shelby easily could've been Jellicoe, and obviously, the decision to make Janeway basically the head of Starfleet).
I don't think women alone, were treated bad this season, so much as all the characters suffered from some bad or questionable decisions.
posted by Atreides at 6:58 AM on April 28, 2023
Read an article on Tor.com that sums up my feelings about this season.
I get that nostalgia is a powerful feeling but I need more than a plot made of moth-ridden lace to keep my interest. I have feelings about the X-Files revival but since the original run had bonkers plots and a byzantine mythology I was ready for whatever. TNG was not that kind of a show so I feel the grasping need for a reunion in any form, no matter what did the themes and characters from the original run a disservice.
posted by fiercekitten at 11:57 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I get that nostalgia is a powerful feeling but I need more than a plot made of moth-ridden lace to keep my interest. I have feelings about the X-Files revival but since the original run had bonkers plots and a byzantine mythology I was ready for whatever. TNG was not that kind of a show so I feel the grasping need for a reunion in any form, no matter what did the themes and characters from the original run a disservice.
posted by fiercekitten at 11:57 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
The finale did about as well as it could have to resolve the main plot and give everyone a nice farewell. This Borg cube was too weak to assimilate the old fashioned way and for some reason it couldn't join up with another one so it's options were to slowly die or try something new. I'm trying to think how the season would have gone if this wasn't a mystery box. For me the real suspense was when the enemy was the Dominion infiltrating Starfleet. Once it became a Borg story it got uninteresting fairly quickly. All the TNG crew had good moments which was nice to see but I was surprised that they completely ignored Laris. Hell, when Riker and Troi were talking about vacation plans why not have Picard mention that he and Laris were planning on going to _________. I'm not even thinking about the possibility that Picard and Beverly are a couple now, they've both moved on.
Why do the museum ships have working weapons and torpedoes? Especially the Enterprise-D that Geordi restored. There's no reason to have them armed and I wouldn't think that starship weapons are something that anyone can just buy like that either. Especially if you're a Federation officer like Geordi that probably doesn't have much in the way of currency. But I also wonder now why bother having the museum at all. Let the old ships fly across the Federation so that everyone can see them.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:52 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why do the museum ships have working weapons and torpedoes? Especially the Enterprise-D that Geordi restored. There's no reason to have them armed and I wouldn't think that starship weapons are something that anyone can just buy like that either. Especially if you're a Federation officer like Geordi that probably doesn't have much in the way of currency. But I also wonder now why bother having the museum at all. Let the old ships fly across the Federation so that everyone can see them.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:52 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
For me the real suspense was when the enemy was the Dominion infiltrating Starfleet. Once it became a Borg story it got uninteresting fairly quickly.
This is a really good point. We've had a post-TNG Enterprise crew Borg story in First Contact, and heck, since we touched upon the Borg in one way or another in Picard S1 and S2, we didn't really need to have it around for the third season. However, it would be more fitting and entertaining if it had focused on a ripple effect or follow up of the Dominion War, which in the 24th Century Trek universe is probably the biggest event. Even the Borg threat was relatively short lived, whereas the Dominion War went on for a while, had the dissolution of the Klingon alliance, and so on and so on. That would've been a movie I'd sit up and watch.
Why do the museum ships have working weapons and torpedoes? Especially the Enterprise-D that Geordi restored. There's no reason to have them armed and I wouldn't think that starship weapons are something that anyone can just buy like that either. Especially if you're a Federation officer like Geordi that probably doesn't have much in the way of currency. But I also wonder now why bother having the museum at all. Let the old ships fly across the Federation so that everyone can see them.
Too many good points, but I guess maybe one of the aspects of a ship in the museum fleet is that it be maintained at the level of readiness it was in the time of use...or no, no, there really isn't a good reason why Geordi had a stock of torpedoes unless the base itself had them for self-defense. I mean, the thing is nearly the size of space dock at Earth, so probably a tempting target for enemies of the Federation/Star Fleet. It probably has a capacity to turn toward military support in times of need, a port of call for the fleet.
I'd wager the ships didn't fly around on display because then you'd need to crew them at a certain level of functionality not necessarily needed if they are just maintenanced at the museum. Though it would be cool if periodically the ships did go out on good will journeys with a museum designated crew.
posted by Atreides at 2:10 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is a really good point. We've had a post-TNG Enterprise crew Borg story in First Contact, and heck, since we touched upon the Borg in one way or another in Picard S1 and S2, we didn't really need to have it around for the third season. However, it would be more fitting and entertaining if it had focused on a ripple effect or follow up of the Dominion War, which in the 24th Century Trek universe is probably the biggest event. Even the Borg threat was relatively short lived, whereas the Dominion War went on for a while, had the dissolution of the Klingon alliance, and so on and so on. That would've been a movie I'd sit up and watch.
Why do the museum ships have working weapons and torpedoes? Especially the Enterprise-D that Geordi restored. There's no reason to have them armed and I wouldn't think that starship weapons are something that anyone can just buy like that either. Especially if you're a Federation officer like Geordi that probably doesn't have much in the way of currency. But I also wonder now why bother having the museum at all. Let the old ships fly across the Federation so that everyone can see them.
Too many good points, but I guess maybe one of the aspects of a ship in the museum fleet is that it be maintained at the level of readiness it was in the time of use...or no, no, there really isn't a good reason why Geordi had a stock of torpedoes unless the base itself had them for self-defense. I mean, the thing is nearly the size of space dock at Earth, so probably a tempting target for enemies of the Federation/Star Fleet. It probably has a capacity to turn toward military support in times of need, a port of call for the fleet.
I'd wager the ships didn't fly around on display because then you'd need to crew them at a certain level of functionality not necessarily needed if they are just maintenanced at the museum. Though it would be cool if periodically the ships did go out on good will journeys with a museum designated crew.
posted by Atreides at 2:10 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I did like how Picard got a second chance at poker with senior staff, having expressed regret in the TNG finale at not having done it sooner.
posted by dr_dank at 3:52 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dr_dank at 3:52 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I did like how Picard got a second chance at poker with senior staff, having expressed regret in the TNG finale at not having done it sooner.
I've always assumed he played a lot of poker with them after that, for years on the Enterprise-E for sure.
posted by Pryde at 6:58 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've always assumed he played a lot of poker with them after that, for years on the Enterprise-E for sure.
posted by Pryde at 6:58 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't get making the end of this episode the same as the end of TNG. I assumed they were a lot closer once the characters started playing poker together. However, I guess with all the years apart and all the trauma and Bev keeping Jack a secret, they haven't played together for a long while.
But recreating the original ending is pretty creatively bankrupt. Here we go, back to where the characters were 20 years ago.
posted by crossoverman at 12:56 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
But recreating the original ending is pretty creatively bankrupt. Here we go, back to where the characters were 20 years ago.
posted by crossoverman at 12:56 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, this season was ... mediocre, at best.
Where was Kestra?
Why did Laris disappear?
Why did no one ever ask Seven, resident Borg expert, about the Borg?
Why did Beverly hide for twenty years to escape Picard's dangerous life of... being a retiree running a vineyard?
Why did none of the Borg storylines in any of the three seasons have anything to do with each other?
Why were all the themes of season one dropped completely? Why does no one ever tell Data that, hey, there are a lot of sentient androids now, he should get in touch? Why does no one seem to acknowledge that events of the (admittedly awful) season two happened at all? Why did no one contact Agnes of Borg and ask her to give her sister a talking to? Why were so many plotlines essentially just dropped halfway through the season -- the portal weapon, the Changelings? Why kill off Q if you're just going to undo that anyway? Why kill off Data if you're just going to undo that anyway?
Ugh.
Well, congratulations on Raffi for being the one new character to make it from the first season to the end, and I'll look forward to a possible Seven-and-Raffi-in-command-of-the-Enterprise spinoff, which sounds great if it doesn't turn into the Jack Crusher Show.
posted by kyrademon at 1:16 AM on April 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
Where was Kestra?
Why did Laris disappear?
Why did no one ever ask Seven, resident Borg expert, about the Borg?
Why did Beverly hide for twenty years to escape Picard's dangerous life of... being a retiree running a vineyard?
Why did none of the Borg storylines in any of the three seasons have anything to do with each other?
Why were all the themes of season one dropped completely? Why does no one ever tell Data that, hey, there are a lot of sentient androids now, he should get in touch? Why does no one seem to acknowledge that events of the (admittedly awful) season two happened at all? Why did no one contact Agnes of Borg and ask her to give her sister a talking to? Why were so many plotlines essentially just dropped halfway through the season -- the portal weapon, the Changelings? Why kill off Q if you're just going to undo that anyway? Why kill off Data if you're just going to undo that anyway?
Ugh.
Well, congratulations on Raffi for being the one new character to make it from the first season to the end, and I'll look forward to a possible Seven-and-Raffi-in-command-of-the-Enterprise spinoff, which sounds great if it doesn't turn into the Jack Crusher Show.
posted by kyrademon at 1:16 AM on April 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
I agree with all those criticisms, kyrademon. They had one story they wanted to tell, with different Borg and with the ridiculous secret son and without Seven's input and so dammit, they did. Also they wrote some scenes so Brent Spiner could ham it up.
As for Kestra, someone got Matalas on the record about that
I fear Laris is the Argos of the Picard epic story.
posted by Nelson at 7:40 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
As for Kestra, someone got Matalas on the record about that
"We had it in there, but again, it just didn't fit in with the dialogue. [There are] so many things you put in that fans are like, ‘Why didn't you just say this?’ You have it in there and it sounds like garbage. We had that line in there, and, ‘Thank God, Kestra is alive and well and at Starfleet Academy…’ It just sounds terrible, so you take it out."I kind of like this frank answer, honestly. "We couldn't figure out how to write it in a way that wasn't clumsy"; fair enough, they have a lot to cover. But when a major character development scene is Riker and Troi reconciling about the loss of a child it seems important to at least mention the other child's wellbeing.
I fear Laris is the Argos of the Picard epic story.
posted by Nelson at 7:40 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Frakes and Stashwick have been praising Matalas as a great writer. I couldn't disagree more. With support like that, Matalas will be running future Trek shows. Hopefully just one and not all of them.
posted by juiceCake at 4:17 PM on April 30, 2023
posted by juiceCake at 4:17 PM on April 30, 2023
Why did Laris disappear?
Not taking Laris, Romulan badass spy supreme, on your secret adventure on intrigue where you can trust no one, is the cardinal sin of the episode.
Also so many missed opportunities. Wouldn't it have been great to have Picard's new flame meet his old one, and his surprise son? Laris and Seven would have gotten on famously.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:29 PM on April 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Not taking Laris, Romulan badass spy supreme, on your secret adventure on intrigue where you can trust no one, is the cardinal sin of the episode.
Also so many missed opportunities. Wouldn't it have been great to have Picard's new flame meet his old one, and his surprise son? Laris and Seven would have gotten on famously.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:29 PM on April 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
"We couldn't figure out how to write it in a way that wasn't clumsy"
Given the amount of clumsy dialogue and situations this season, this seems like a poor excuse. "I need to reference Matalas a whole bunch, shoe-horn in Moriarty, show attack tribbles, have Deanna roll her eyes during Data's therapy, give the show 12 different endings, bring back Q, but this one line about Kestra... how could I possibly fit it in? Nah, let's do a joke about carpet after all of Starfleet under 25 years old has been assimilated, including Geordi's two daughters. No possible way I can fit in a line about Kestra in 10 episodes or at the climax."
posted by crossoverman at 4:48 PM on April 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Given the amount of clumsy dialogue and situations this season, this seems like a poor excuse. "I need to reference Matalas a whole bunch, shoe-horn in Moriarty, show attack tribbles, have Deanna roll her eyes during Data's therapy, give the show 12 different endings, bring back Q, but this one line about Kestra... how could I possibly fit it in? Nah, let's do a joke about carpet after all of Starfleet under 25 years old has been assimilated, including Geordi's two daughters. No possible way I can fit in a line about Kestra in 10 episodes or at the climax."
posted by crossoverman at 4:48 PM on April 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Nah, let's do a joke about carpet after all of Starfleet under 25 years old has been assimilated
Literally no reference to how every member of Starfleet serving on a ship over the age of 25 has been murdered, with the exception of like 5 people on the Titan. The entire fleet, flown by green ensigns and a handful of traumatised POWs recovered from the Changelings.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:01 PM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Literally no reference to how every member of Starfleet serving on a ship over the age of 25 has been murdered, with the exception of like 5 people on the Titan. The entire fleet, flown by green ensigns and a handful of traumatised POWs recovered from the Changelings.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:01 PM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Literally no reference to how every member of Starfleet serving on a ship over the age of 25 has been murdered, with the exception of like 5 people on the Titan.
This seems like a wild overestimation considering we see Starfleet personnel being run through the transporter to remove the Borg elements. A ship can be commandeered without everyone else on board being killed.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:38 PM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
This seems like a wild overestimation considering we see Starfleet personnel being run through the transporter to remove the Borg elements. A ship can be commandeered without everyone else on board being killed.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:38 PM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
This seems like a wild overestimation considering we see Starfleet personnel being run through the transporter to remove the Borg elements. A ship can be commandeered without everyone else on board being killed.
The youf who all got Borgified took over their respective ships by following the command ‘eliminate all unassimilated’. Not ‘capture’, not ‘neutralise’. At the very least, most of them must have been killed.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:37 AM on May 1, 2023
The youf who all got Borgified took over their respective ships by following the command ‘eliminate all unassimilated’. Not ‘capture’, not ‘neutralise’. At the very least, most of them must have been killed.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:37 AM on May 1, 2023
The youf who all got Borgified took over their respective ships by following the command ‘eliminate all unassimilated’. Not ‘capture’, not ‘neutralise’. At the very least, most of them must have been killed.
I mean, yeah, but the Borg have also been saying "you will be assimilated" for 30 years and yet the galaxy is still mostly non-Borg.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:24 AM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, yeah, but the Borg have also been saying "you will be assimilated" for 30 years and yet the galaxy is still mostly non-Borg.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:24 AM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Whatever legacy characters needed to survive the joint shapeshifter/Borg takeover of Starfleet will have survived. Whether or not the show will grapple with the implications of a Starfleet that lost a great number of senior officers will entirely depend on the next writer's room and if Paramount wants to go in that direction.
Personally, I think it would be far more interesting for them to explore that, but my money is on it never really being an issue.
posted by nubs at 7:43 AM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Personally, I think it would be far more interesting for them to explore that, but my money is on it never really being an issue.
posted by nubs at 7:43 AM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
This show has taken and left stuff from the first two seasons of the show pretty randomly, so I suspect if LEGACY ever happens, Matalas will ignore most of the inconvenient things - like the trauma of the youth being borgified, everyone over 25 being dead or Shaw being dead. He'll bring Shaw back. He's already said he has a plan to bring Shaw back. He can't even commit to the storytelling decisions he made.
posted by crossoverman at 4:52 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 4:52 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just figured that Kestra was at their prairie hipster home with the Robert Picardo-portrayed Emergency Childcare Hologram.
posted by dr_dank at 1:27 PM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 1:27 PM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Any headcanon you have for Kestra is better than any line of explanation that Matalas could have written.
posted by crossoverman at 3:54 PM on May 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 3:54 PM on May 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
the real question is whether Kestra used any starfleet transporters lately.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 5:37 PM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 5:37 PM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Show so bad I'm not sure I can even watch TNG again if Picard is present.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:39 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:39 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just finished. I didn't see seasons 1 or 2, and my only real other Trek experience is some TNG and all of DS9, which I adored. It seems like writers of these sorts of huge-fandom reboots/sequels are pulled by so many demands - honoring the existing characters, their arcs, and their emotional truths, giving nostalgic fans memberberries, setting up other commercial products in the same cinematic universe, telling a coherent & plausible story, making something visually beautiful, making some sort of broader underlying thematic point, etc. etc., that my expectations were pretty low. I generally feel that way with science fiction shows, which always require a huge amount of suspension-of-disbelief, as they have invent whole new worlds without the capacity to necessarily flesh them out.
I felt like it scratched the nostalgia-itch, and gave older actors a chance to recreate characters known best as much younger ones, which has its own kind of poignancy to it. Thematically, I felt like there were lots of different takes on survival and evolution - in one episode a "you can't grow and change and have new lie without death" type of thing, in another survival as kind of a terrifying need that leads people to murder, and evolution as a corrupting process (e.g., the Borg Queen's speech). Maybe having that theme be a bit messy was a choice, or maybe not.
But I personally did feel like too often, in order to cram everything in there, they fell back on things that felt too easy. Villains are evil, and deserve to die; heroes are good, and (almost) always survive. Stakes are gigantic, hard chioces don't truly have to be made, and traumatic events pass without consequence. At the beginning of Episode 9, when Troi is in Jack's mind, I thought the show might turn into something more interesting and amibiguous, where we would learn something interal about this guy whose life has been really overdetermined by his circumstances - one of his parents hiding him from the other, a famous parent about whom they probably know more than they want but have no relationship with. I was really interested in what was behind that door, because I thought it would lead to the sort of surreal philosophizing that shows like this sometimes do beautifully.
But then it was just the most famous villain from before, and honestly you could probably have asked anyone to imagine what they thought the rest of the series would look like from that point on, and they'd probably be right.
Similarly with Data/Lore. An actual combination of the two of them would be interesting! Putting together a very loyal/curious/aloof person with a very ambitious/mercurial one could make for an interesting character - and one that would clearly not be Data, but somthing else entirely. But this just seemed like Data, but with stronger reactions to things (though I did like the hand on the shoulder).
I liked the notion that Picard's relationship to Starfleet was, at one time, a good way of escaping loneliness, but over time became its own source of loneliness. But maybe that's an idea that had already been explored.
I guess overall this felt like lots of intriguing and well-done moments, and for a while it seemed to be building the suspense in a good way (the changelings are great for that), but ultimately it couldn't satisfy all the criteria, and fell back to: "you love these characters, here they are on screen, doing things you've enjoyed seeing them do," without anything much more to say than that.
Sorry if other folks liked it more - that's great if you did. Just wanted to put that out there.
posted by nightcoast at 2:00 PM on May 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
I felt like it scratched the nostalgia-itch, and gave older actors a chance to recreate characters known best as much younger ones, which has its own kind of poignancy to it. Thematically, I felt like there were lots of different takes on survival and evolution - in one episode a "you can't grow and change and have new lie without death" type of thing, in another survival as kind of a terrifying need that leads people to murder, and evolution as a corrupting process (e.g., the Borg Queen's speech). Maybe having that theme be a bit messy was a choice, or maybe not.
But I personally did feel like too often, in order to cram everything in there, they fell back on things that felt too easy. Villains are evil, and deserve to die; heroes are good, and (almost) always survive. Stakes are gigantic, hard chioces don't truly have to be made, and traumatic events pass without consequence. At the beginning of Episode 9, when Troi is in Jack's mind, I thought the show might turn into something more interesting and amibiguous, where we would learn something interal about this guy whose life has been really overdetermined by his circumstances - one of his parents hiding him from the other, a famous parent about whom they probably know more than they want but have no relationship with. I was really interested in what was behind that door, because I thought it would lead to the sort of surreal philosophizing that shows like this sometimes do beautifully.
But then it was just the most famous villain from before, and honestly you could probably have asked anyone to imagine what they thought the rest of the series would look like from that point on, and they'd probably be right.
Similarly with Data/Lore. An actual combination of the two of them would be interesting! Putting together a very loyal/curious/aloof person with a very ambitious/mercurial one could make for an interesting character - and one that would clearly not be Data, but somthing else entirely. But this just seemed like Data, but with stronger reactions to things (though I did like the hand on the shoulder).
I liked the notion that Picard's relationship to Starfleet was, at one time, a good way of escaping loneliness, but over time became its own source of loneliness. But maybe that's an idea that had already been explored.
I guess overall this felt like lots of intriguing and well-done moments, and for a while it seemed to be building the suspense in a good way (the changelings are great for that), but ultimately it couldn't satisfy all the criteria, and fell back to: "you love these characters, here they are on screen, doing things you've enjoyed seeing them do," without anything much more to say than that.
Sorry if other folks liked it more - that's great if you did. Just wanted to put that out there.
posted by nightcoast at 2:00 PM on May 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
I know it's late for this thread, but shouldn't it be "Captain Nine", not Captain Seven?
Captain Seven sounds like it should be "Captain Jean-Luc" or "Captain Benjamin".
posted by dforemsky at 10:57 AM on May 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Captain Seven sounds like it should be "Captain Jean-Luc" or "Captain Benjamin".
posted by dforemsky at 10:57 AM on May 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the closest thing we can compare this to is Leonardo da Vinci. We're not supposed to say Mr. Da Vinci, but instead, just Leonardo. I think the same is true for Seven. She's Seven "of Nine," i.e., of nine being where she's from. I suppose.
posted by Atreides at 6:55 PM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Atreides at 6:55 PM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
a few lolz, lots of well-earned emotional beats by good actors in the service of nostalgia, but as far as sci-fi, as far as story….where to fucking begin????
Plot Armor for everyone: Check
Easy defeat of omnipotent multi-year plans by a thoughtful enemy just by a few pew-pews: Check
Dumb technobabble/deus-ex-machina to drive the hero’s quest forward: Check
No real consequences for anyone ……No wider ramifications on their actions at all except for some derisory bow tying at the end : Check
Everything is a function of the personal needs of the characters: save the universe by having a therapy chinwag with your fucking estranged son in the virtual borg chillout room at a rave : check,
…..this is nominally the same series that gave us fuckin’ Darmok, The inner light. Chain of command. tapestry. family. The defector. drumhead. the wounded. measure of a man!!
This was objectively badly written hackery. I think it shits on the graves of the writers of the work above. an insult to the memory of TNG.
spits.
posted by lalochezia at 9:13 PM on May 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Plot Armor for everyone: Check
Easy defeat of omnipotent multi-year plans by a thoughtful enemy just by a few pew-pews: Check
Dumb technobabble/deus-ex-machina to drive the hero’s quest forward: Check
No real consequences for anyone ……No wider ramifications on their actions at all except for some derisory bow tying at the end : Check
Everything is a function of the personal needs of the characters: save the universe by having a therapy chinwag with your fucking estranged son in the virtual borg chillout room at a rave : check,
…..this is nominally the same series that gave us fuckin’ Darmok, The inner light. Chain of command. tapestry. family. The defector. drumhead. the wounded. measure of a man!!
This was objectively badly written hackery. I think it shits on the graves of the writers of the work above. an insult to the memory of TNG.
spits.
posted by lalochezia at 9:13 PM on May 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
This was insultingly bad. And I'm not even talking about the fan service. That was fine! Poker is great! back to the ENT-D is great!
I can forgive the stupid giant plot holes (WHY did X do Y instead of doing Z?!?).
I'm talking about the stilted lines, the terrible melodrama, and the absolute predictability of every single plot resolution.
I actually felt angry after watching this.
There were a lot of very nice character moments but they were all hanging on a scaffolding made of cardboard.
posted by bq at 3:28 PM on August 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
I can forgive the stupid giant plot holes (WHY did X do Y instead of doing Z?!?).
I'm talking about the stilted lines, the terrible melodrama, and the absolute predictability of every single plot resolution.
I actually felt angry after watching this.
There were a lot of very nice character moments but they were all hanging on a scaffolding made of cardboard.
posted by bq at 3:28 PM on August 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
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hopefully this at least means Strange New Worlds: The Next Generation is coming, because I would be very into that
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:06 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]