Shogun: The Abyss of Life Show Only
April 9, 2024 7:41 AM - Season 1, Episode 8 - Subscribe
Toranaga's defeated clan moves to Edo; Blackthorne must decide who he fights for.
"... own people... seem... strange."
A sickly daimyo returns to Edo. Ishido proposes an alliance. Nagakado gets Ikiru'd. Young Lord Omi sees his future in flames. Mariko tells her husband how she really feels about him over tea. Blackthorne burns a bridge. Madam Gin appreciates her lot as Father Alvito meets his new neighbors. Lady Daiyoin makes a final request. Lord Hiromatsu proves his loyalty to Japan before his Lord. Yabushige makes an ally.
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"... own people... seem... strange."
A sickly daimyo returns to Edo. Ishido proposes an alliance. Nagakado gets Ikiru'd. Young Lord Omi sees his future in flames. Mariko tells her husband how she really feels about him over tea. Blackthorne burns a bridge. Madam Gin appreciates her lot as Father Alvito meets his new neighbors. Lady Daiyoin makes a final request. Lord Hiromatsu proves his loyalty to Japan before his Lord. Yabushige makes an ally.
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Interesting that the most successful and talented swordsman / warrior is also the biggest loser who is subject to the most humiliation. Buntaro suffered so deeply this episode he seems relatable and even somewhat likeable now.
I think Toronaga was genuinely despondent and had no plan last episode; not sure when that changed exactly. If Blackthorne and Yabushige mounting a naval assault was the plan from the beginning, surely Toronaga is skilled enough and deception and espionage that he could have ordered the outcome without getting in trouble for it. I'm not sure how much of his listlessness the last two episodes was genuine, a ruse to manipulate his vassals, a ruse to test loyalty, or some combination of all three.
posted by Hume at 10:11 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
I think Toronaga was genuinely despondent and had no plan last episode; not sure when that changed exactly. If Blackthorne and Yabushige mounting a naval assault was the plan from the beginning, surely Toronaga is skilled enough and deception and espionage that he could have ordered the outcome without getting in trouble for it. I'm not sure how much of his listlessness the last two episodes was genuine, a ruse to manipulate his vassals, a ruse to test loyalty, or some combination of all three.
posted by Hume at 10:11 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
I would say "ruse": given that Toranaga lost a good chunk of his army, thanks to unanticipated earthquakes, he needs to get Ochiba and Ishido to become as over-confident as possible. (Well, his son screwing up yet again wasn't part of the ruse, but that actually turned out to Toranaga's benefit, so there's that.) The closing dialogue establishes that he a) planned for Hiromatsu to commit seppuku (and that Hiromatsu was in on it), b) planned for Blackthorne to ally himself with Yabushige (they are both "goshawks" with "predictable" behavior), which is presumably the climax of his strategy from last episode, and so c) he therefore must have planned out what he intends for Mariko to do in Osaka as a result.
posted by thomas j wise at 10:41 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 10:41 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
I don't know if he planned that Hiromatsu would commit seppuku, but I think he knew it was a possibility. I don't think Hiromatsu was in on it, but I think he did it because it would further Toranaga's plans.
posted by Pendragon at 11:27 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 11:27 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
We do know that he planned granting the church land next to a brothel.
posted by porpoise at 4:04 PM on April 9 [7 favorites]
posted by porpoise at 4:04 PM on April 9 [7 favorites]
Seppuku wasn't all that common in reality, but it is in jidaigeki (Japanese period dramas).
I've seen a lot of jidaigeki, and this is the first time I was genuinely moved by an act of seppuku.
All that they were communicating to each other with just their eyes. I didn't believe he was gonna do it. Neither could anyone else in that room. Devastating.
posted by ishmael at 6:06 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
I've seen a lot of jidaigeki, and this is the first time I was genuinely moved by an act of seppuku.
All that they were communicating to each other with just their eyes. I didn't believe he was gonna do it. Neither could anyone else in that room. Devastating.
posted by ishmael at 6:06 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure how much of his listlessness the last two episodes was genuine, a ruse to manipulate his vassals, a ruse to test loyalty, or some combination of all three.
Think he is maintaining an act even when he is 'alone' because he assumes there are spies. He certainly has spies feeding him info.
I think he knew that Ochiba/Ishido would try to turn Saeki, and that he sent Saeki to them as a double-agent. I watched the Nagakado death scene again, and Saeki is definitely trying to evade, not retaliate.
posted by ishmael at 6:12 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Think he is maintaining an act even when he is 'alone' because he assumes there are spies. He certainly has spies feeding him info.
I think he knew that Ochiba/Ishido would try to turn Saeki, and that he sent Saeki to them as a double-agent. I watched the Nagakado death scene again, and Saeki is definitely trying to evade, not retaliate.
posted by ishmael at 6:12 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
I think Toronaga was hoping that Hiromatsu would catch on to the ruse when he sent Alvito back to report what he had seen, and that Hiromatsu would disseminate that info to the rank and file.
This did not work, many retainers wanted to reject the ruse and so Hiromatsu preemptively created a beef, even tho he believed the ruse, in order to nip any rebellion in the bud, and to sell the ruse to outsiders.
After Hiromatsu sacrificed himself, any attempt at dissension would be seen as trying upstage Hiromatsu and disrespect his sacrifice, and so all the other retainers fell in line.
posted by ishmael at 6:21 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]
This did not work, many retainers wanted to reject the ruse and so Hiromatsu preemptively created a beef, even tho he believed the ruse, in order to nip any rebellion in the bud, and to sell the ruse to outsiders.
After Hiromatsu sacrificed himself, any attempt at dissension would be seen as trying upstage Hiromatsu and disrespect his sacrifice, and so all the other retainers fell in line.
posted by ishmael at 6:21 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]
Sorry for commenting so much, one last thing-
The scene with Alvito trying to persuade Toronaga to join Ochiba and the heir was interesting. True, Ochiba would never forgive him and join hands. Toronaga sees this and is willing to destroy that clan, his affection for the heir notwithstanding. There is a strange coexistence of almost familial affection and utter ruthlessness that these characters are always having to navigate.
I thought a similar thing about Daiyoin and Ochiba. "Look what I created". Gutting.
posted by ishmael at 6:34 PM on April 9
The scene with Alvito trying to persuade Toronaga to join Ochiba and the heir was interesting. True, Ochiba would never forgive him and join hands. Toronaga sees this and is willing to destroy that clan, his affection for the heir notwithstanding. There is a strange coexistence of almost familial affection and utter ruthlessness that these characters are always having to navigate.
I thought a similar thing about Daiyoin and Ochiba. "Look what I created". Gutting.
posted by ishmael at 6:34 PM on April 9
Sumimasen! One last thing- the ruse is that Toronaga is entering Osaka with a full army (Saeki's) without losing a single man. They are just going to invite him right in.
And he might also have the benefit of possible cannons firing from Anjin's ship.
Besieging a fortress like Osaka would have been protracted and costly (which did happen in real life). The real Tokugawa used other tricks to make that work.
posted by ishmael at 6:42 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
And he might also have the benefit of possible cannons firing from Anjin's ship.
Besieging a fortress like Osaka would have been protracted and costly (which did happen in real life). The real Tokugawa used other tricks to make that work.
posted by ishmael at 6:42 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
My precious, terrible Buntaro made it through an entire episode without being the absolute worst! Sit in the hole you’ve dug for yourself, Buntaro! You deserve it, you trashbag of a human being!
But also I love you!
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:48 PM on April 9 [9 favorites]
But also I love you!
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:48 PM on April 9 [9 favorites]
Even I felt bad for Buntaro during the tea ceremony scene. I haven't seen such an intimate rebuke on film since Kathleen Turner removed Michael Douglas's hand from her dying body in War of the Roses (1989).
posted by Molesome at 11:06 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
posted by Molesome at 11:06 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
I know this is a show only thread..But is it worth reading the book after the show ends ? I have heard book people say the show altered some mayor things from the book and now I'm curious :-)
posted by Pendragon at 11:08 PM on April 9
posted by Pendragon at 11:08 PM on April 9
I know this is a show only thread..But is it worth reading the book after the show ends ? I have heard book people say the show altered some mayor things from the book and now I'm curious :-)
My parents loved the book when it came out...but no idea how the book presents today versus being an artifact of its time. If I remember correctly, the novel generally keeps the women off to the side, whereas the show gives them much more agency and character.
The tea scene was just, wow. As vicious and heart rendering as Mariko's words were to Buntaro, I do think she was being honest out of respect for his actions. Shinnosuke Abe, the actor who plays Buntaro, was incredible. Were it not for the fact that we know Buntaro is an abusive asshole, Abe would have us weeping tears of sympathy for the character. Speaking of said character, not only does his wife tell him, "I wanted to die purely to get away from you," he is then asked by his dad to do his duty and cut father's head off. Buntaro is going to be in a really bad place going forward, so look for some kind of over the top sacrifice. Then again, this is Shogun, so he might ride off to do something and hit a low hanging branch and break his neck.
From my perspective, Hiromatsu did not go into the audience hall with the idea he was going to kill himself, but took the initiative to make sure that Toranaga's plan worked. I expect that Toranaga's insistence that his Edo generals come with him is his way of bringing everything he's got to Osaka without raising suspicion.
Sumimasen! One last thing- the ruse is that Toronaga is entering Osaka with a full army (Saeki's) without losing a single man. They are just going to invite him right in.
This is going to be incredible to watch!
I'm guessing Toranaga wants Mariko to confront O-Chiba and we're going to get a rematch from the naginata scene from the flashbacks. I honestly think that the flashback served the purpose in part of preparing us for this confrontation to come.
What's most clear is that Toranaga is out there playing chess with everything he has, even if others don't realize it (minus the Madame Gin).
posted by Atreides at 7:54 AM on April 10 [2 favorites]
My parents loved the book when it came out...but no idea how the book presents today versus being an artifact of its time. If I remember correctly, the novel generally keeps the women off to the side, whereas the show gives them much more agency and character.
The tea scene was just, wow. As vicious and heart rendering as Mariko's words were to Buntaro, I do think she was being honest out of respect for his actions. Shinnosuke Abe, the actor who plays Buntaro, was incredible. Were it not for the fact that we know Buntaro is an abusive asshole, Abe would have us weeping tears of sympathy for the character. Speaking of said character, not only does his wife tell him, "I wanted to die purely to get away from you," he is then asked by his dad to do his duty and cut father's head off. Buntaro is going to be in a really bad place going forward, so look for some kind of over the top sacrifice. Then again, this is Shogun, so he might ride off to do something and hit a low hanging branch and break his neck.
From my perspective, Hiromatsu did not go into the audience hall with the idea he was going to kill himself, but took the initiative to make sure that Toranaga's plan worked. I expect that Toranaga's insistence that his Edo generals come with him is his way of bringing everything he's got to Osaka without raising suspicion.
Sumimasen! One last thing- the ruse is that Toronaga is entering Osaka with a full army (Saeki's) without losing a single man. They are just going to invite him right in.
This is going to be incredible to watch!
I'm guessing Toranaga wants Mariko to confront O-Chiba and we're going to get a rematch from the naginata scene from the flashbacks. I honestly think that the flashback served the purpose in part of preparing us for this confrontation to come.
What's most clear is that Toranaga is out there playing chess with everything he has, even if others don't realize it (minus the Madame Gin).
posted by Atreides at 7:54 AM on April 10 [2 favorites]
This show is so, so much better than I expected. The seppuku sequence was brilliant-- the moment it became clear that Toranaga was going to let Hiromatsu actually off himself I found myself thinking holy shit, maybe this really isn't all a ruse after all and by the time his head hit the floor I came around to and I just fell for it, this is a really good ruse.
Parasite Unseen, I am right there with you on Conflicted Team Trashbag. If Buntaro bites it an embarrassing manner next episode I will go "aww" and then laugh horribly
posted by phooky at 11:11 AM on April 10 [4 favorites]
Parasite Unseen, I am right there with you on Conflicted Team Trashbag. If Buntaro bites it an embarrassing manner next episode I will go "aww" and then laugh horribly
posted by phooky at 11:11 AM on April 10 [4 favorites]
Toranaga certainly has a sense of humor when it comes to rewarding people, and yet objectively everyone still gets what they deserve.
We do know that he planned granting the church land next to a brothel.
I realize the show played it for laughs, but it appears that the courtesans play a much more elevated role in the Japanese society of the time than that of a common brothel. I would also say the church might consider itself well located to serve its clientele of sinners, but of course the missionary Catholic church of the time was more akin to colonial shock troopers.
posted by fairmettle at 12:20 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
We do know that he planned granting the church land next to a brothel.
I realize the show played it for laughs, but it appears that the courtesans play a much more elevated role in the Japanese society of the time than that of a common brothel. I would also say the church might consider itself well located to serve its clientele of sinners, but of course the missionary Catholic church of the time was more akin to colonial shock troopers.
posted by fairmettle at 12:20 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
rematch from the naginata scene
That wouldn't really be a rematch because Mariko did not fight with Ruri in that scene.
posted by Pendragon at 11:33 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
That wouldn't really be a rematch because Mariko did not fight with Ruri in that scene.
posted by Pendragon at 11:33 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
It wasn't Ruri?
Welp. I blame the writers, not my bad memory.
posted by Atreides at 11:07 AM on April 11
Welp. I blame the writers, not my bad memory.
posted by Atreides at 11:07 AM on April 11
I'm not sure how much of his listlessness the last two episodes was genuine
The our-lord-is-sick coughing was mostly performative, I thought? It was very noticeable that he was not coughing during the goshawk conversation with Mariko.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:16 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
The our-lord-is-sick coughing was mostly performative, I thought? It was very noticeable that he was not coughing during the goshawk conversation with Mariko.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:16 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
The our-lord-is-sick coughing was mostly performative, I thought? It was very noticeable that he was not coughing during the goshawk conversation with Mariko.
He also (after having to be helped walking from place to place for most of the episode) was noticeably mobile when visiting the remnants of his son's pyre.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 12:40 PM on April 11 [3 favorites]
He also (after having to be helped walking from place to place for most of the episode) was noticeably mobile when visiting the remnants of his son's pyre.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 12:40 PM on April 11 [3 favorites]
Buntaro loves Mariko. The pain of that love is exquisite.
Toranaga is playing a deep game and Mariko is very much a part of it.
posted by jadepearl at 11:46 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
Toranaga is playing a deep game and Mariko is very much a part of it.
posted by jadepearl at 11:46 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
I think the both of us both realized the depth of Toranaga's scheme at the same moment that Mariko did.
posted by jquinby at 12:26 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
posted by jquinby at 12:26 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
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posted by Molesome at 7:43 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]