The West Wing: Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc Rewatch
July 1, 2014 7:59 AM - Season 1, Episode 2 - Subscribe
Leo hires Mandy as a consultant to the President. Vice President Hoynes rebuffs C.J. when she tries to discuss a comment he made.
Sam jeopardizes his bright political future when he decides to pursue a relationship with a call girl he met recently, C.J. arbitrates a disagreement between the President and the Vice President, and the President hires a new White House physician. The White House hires Mandy as a political consultant, much to Josh's chagrin. President Bartlet connects with his new doctor, Captain Morris Tolliver, whose first child was born recently.
Airdate: September 29, 1999
Director: Schlamme
Writer: Sorkin
20 Episodes 'til Mandy's smug buns are never heard from again.
Sam jeopardizes his bright political future when he decides to pursue a relationship with a call girl he met recently, C.J. arbitrates a disagreement between the President and the Vice President, and the President hires a new White House physician. The White House hires Mandy as a political consultant, much to Josh's chagrin. President Bartlet connects with his new doctor, Captain Morris Tolliver, whose first child was born recently.
Airdate: September 29, 1999
Director: Schlamme
Writer: Sorkin
20 Episodes 'til Mandy's smug buns are never heard from again.
I love Josh's feeble attempt at translating Latin: After hoc, therefore something else hoc.
Also, "I don't understand. Did you trip over something?" and the keg of glory!
I watched TWW before Sports Night, but Laurie now seems like a slightly reworked version of Jeremy's S2 girlfriend, designed to be more sympathetic to the audience (struggling law student, a less stigmatized profession, unfairly dragged across the coals). I don't recall having much of an opinion on the character the first time I saw her, but she feels inorganic upon rewatch.
posted by casualinference at 9:33 AM on July 1, 2014
Also, "I don't understand. Did you trip over something?" and the keg of glory!
I watched TWW before Sports Night, but Laurie now seems like a slightly reworked version of Jeremy's S2 girlfriend, designed to be more sympathetic to the audience (struggling law student, a less stigmatized profession, unfairly dragged across the coals). I don't recall having much of an opinion on the character the first time I saw her, but she feels inorganic upon rewatch.
posted by casualinference at 9:33 AM on July 1, 2014
Sam's behaviour with Laurie is super-skeavy and gross in that Rom-Com Stalker sort of way. She's clearly trying to be the bigger person and he's a giant asshole, yet we're supposed to think he's the noble one because he is willing to risk his career by taking some vaguely principled stand that it's okay for him to know her, even though she's a whore. Not that it's okay that she's a whore, really, because if it was, he wouldn't need to try to fix her. He just pays lip service to the idea that it's okay that she's a prostitute and no one should care if they are friends but it's all self-centered and about him, and not about her at all.
I'm not sure I noticed it the first couple of times I watched The West Wing, but the last couple of times I've watched it, I've been quite acutely grossed out by that plotline.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:06 AM on July 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure I noticed it the first couple of times I watched The West Wing, but the last couple of times I've watched it, I've been quite acutely grossed out by that plotline.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:06 AM on July 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
I don't recall having much of an opinion on the character the first time I saw her, but she feels inorganic upon rewatch.
I agree with this; I think her character is muddled and all over the place. In the first episode she's kind of dopey and smokes pot and says stuff like "Your friend POTUS has a funny name" and then later she's a hard-working intelligent woman and it just makes her character seem really inconsistent and shoehorned in as a stupid plot device. On preview, I basically agree with what jacquilynne said.
Also, GOD there is no getting rid of Mandy soon enough for me. Also, her real name is Madeline, shouldn't she be Maddy and not Mandy? It makes no sense and I hate her.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:10 AM on July 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
I agree with this; I think her character is muddled and all over the place. In the first episode she's kind of dopey and smokes pot and says stuff like "Your friend POTUS has a funny name" and then later she's a hard-working intelligent woman and it just makes her character seem really inconsistent and shoehorned in as a stupid plot device. On preview, I basically agree with what jacquilynne said.
Also, GOD there is no getting rid of Mandy soon enough for me. Also, her real name is Madeline, shouldn't she be Maddy and not Mandy? It makes no sense and I hate her.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:10 AM on July 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
I watched TWW before Sports Night, but Laurie now seems like a slightly reworked version of Jeremy's S2 girlfriend, designed to be more sympathetic to the audience (struggling law student, a less stigmatized profession, unfairly dragged across the coals). I don't recall having much of an opinion on the character the first time I saw her, but she feels inorganic upon rewatch.
One of Aaron Sorkin's biggest weaknesses as a writer is that he cannot stop himself from reusing the same ideas. The West Wing has a few things that feel like rewrites of Sports Night bits (the father with the long running affair, the episodes that take the form of narrated letters), and honestly I think Sports Night does them better for the most part. There's a lot to like about The West Wing, but those parts (or Laurie) aren't its best qualities.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:25 AM on July 1, 2014
One of Aaron Sorkin's biggest weaknesses as a writer is that he cannot stop himself from reusing the same ideas. The West Wing has a few things that feel like rewrites of Sports Night bits (the father with the long running affair, the episodes that take the form of narrated letters), and honestly I think Sports Night does them better for the most part. There's a lot to like about The West Wing, but those parts (or Laurie) aren't its best qualities.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:25 AM on July 1, 2014
Okay, there isn't a Captain in the Navy who thinks he's "comparatively low-ranked," and there sure as hell aren't any who would fidget about an assignment based on it. That's one rank below being literally an Admiral, and you don't waste an Admiral by assigning him to be the personal physician of one person (for one thing, by the time you make Admiral in a U.S. military medical branch, you're only barely a practicing physician).
Has Sorkin ever written an African-American character who didn't get at least one Uplifting Speech about being African-American?
I wish there had been more Hoynes stuff. This one set up a great plot arc about Hoynes' ambitions that could have been in the background more. Despite my love of John Spencer dating back to his days on L.A. Law, I loved "This 'office' doesn't have the authority to direct me to the men's room!" It was good to have a worthy opponent with a reasonable grudge (especially because later episodes showed clearly that Leo hated Hoynes way more than Bartlet did), and Hoynes would have been so much better than the cartoonishly evil Republicans (who sadly became less cartoony in comparison to actual Republicans over the years).
And yeah, Sam's white knight routine is... gross.
posted by Etrigan at 12:32 PM on July 1, 2014
Has Sorkin ever written an African-American character who didn't get at least one Uplifting Speech about being African-American?
I wish there had been more Hoynes stuff. This one set up a great plot arc about Hoynes' ambitions that could have been in the background more. Despite my love of John Spencer dating back to his days on L.A. Law, I loved "This 'office' doesn't have the authority to direct me to the men's room!" It was good to have a worthy opponent with a reasonable grudge (especially because later episodes showed clearly that Leo hated Hoynes way more than Bartlet did), and Hoynes would have been so much better than the cartoonishly evil Republicans (who sadly became less cartoony in comparison to actual Republicans over the years).
And yeah, Sam's white knight routine is... gross.
posted by Etrigan at 12:32 PM on July 1, 2014
Okay, there isn't a Captain in the Navy who thinks he's "comparatively low-ranked," and there sure as hell aren't any who would fidget about an assignment based on it. That's one rank below being literally an Admiral, and you don't waste an Admiral by assigning him to be the personal physician of one person (for one thing, by the time you make Admiral in a U.S. military medical branch, you're only barely a practicing physician).
You're right about a USN captain not pointing out that he is low ranked for a job (ego), but you're wrong about a captain or even an admiral serving the role. It traditionally is at least a captain or (or O-6 equivalent). Check out the wikipedia article on it, with a list of those who have served the position.
posted by 2ht at 1:46 PM on July 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
You're right about a USN captain not pointing out that he is low ranked for a job (ego), but you're wrong about a captain or even an admiral serving the role. It traditionally is at least a captain or (or O-6 equivalent). Check out the wikipedia article on it, with a list of those who have served the position.
posted by 2ht at 1:46 PM on July 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I stand corrected. I knew the current one was a Captain (friend of a friend), and those things change so glacially that I figured it had always been thus.
posted by Etrigan at 2:04 PM on July 1, 2014
posted by Etrigan at 2:04 PM on July 1, 2014
I'm not sure I noticed it the first couple of times I watched The West Wing, but the last couple of times I've watched it, I've been quite acutely grossed out by that plotline.
Totally agree. Part of me thinks that it's because I have higher standards than I did in 1999 (which is probably true) but I also think, on the theme of Sorkin repeating himself, the problems with the Laurie/Sam plot are highlighted by Sorkin's other questionable choices with his female characters. You may not notice it at first but after seeing the other things, you can't not see it.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 3:11 PM on July 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Totally agree. Part of me thinks that it's because I have higher standards than I did in 1999 (which is probably true) but I also think, on the theme of Sorkin repeating himself, the problems with the Laurie/Sam plot are highlighted by Sorkin's other questionable choices with his female characters. You may not notice it at first but after seeing the other things, you can't not see it.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 3:11 PM on July 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
It was good to have a worthy opponent with a reasonable grudge (especially because later episodes showed clearly that Leo hated Hoynes way more than Bartlet did), and Hoynes would have been so much better than the cartoonishly evil Republicans (who sadly became less cartoony in comparison to actual Republicans over the years).
Agreed. I always got the impression that Bartlet, at least in the (our) beginning, seems disappointed that Hoynes is so openly antagonistic. That he thought Hoynes was a good guy and would make a good president and frustrated at the lack of collaboration.
Of course, we find out later the root of all the anger, but it still feels like Bartlet sees a missed opportunity or something.
posted by ApathyGirl at 5:25 PM on July 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Agreed. I always got the impression that Bartlet, at least in the (our) beginning, seems disappointed that Hoynes is so openly antagonistic. That he thought Hoynes was a good guy and would make a good president and frustrated at the lack of collaboration.
Of course, we find out later the root of all the anger, but it still feels like Bartlet sees a missed opportunity or something.
posted by ApathyGirl at 5:25 PM on July 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I always got the impression that Bartlet, at least in the (our) beginning, seems disappointed that Hoynes is so openly antagonistic. That he thought Hoynes was a good guy and would make a good president and frustrated at the lack of collaboration.
Of course, we find out later the root of all the anger, but it still feels like Bartlet sees a missed opportunity or something.
I think Hoynes is the most visible symptom of Sorkin not really having as complete a bible in his head as he maybe should have. Antagonist, legitimate presidential candidate who just fell short in the primaries, geographical triangulation candidate, attack dog, heir apparent, massively flawed person but skilled politician... he's basically all the reasons for a VP sequentially, depending on when the story calls for it.
posted by Etrigan at 6:52 PM on July 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Of course, we find out later the root of all the anger, but it still feels like Bartlet sees a missed opportunity or something.
I think Hoynes is the most visible symptom of Sorkin not really having as complete a bible in his head as he maybe should have. Antagonist, legitimate presidential candidate who just fell short in the primaries, geographical triangulation candidate, attack dog, heir apparent, massively flawed person but skilled politician... he's basically all the reasons for a VP sequentially, depending on when the story calls for it.
posted by Etrigan at 6:52 PM on July 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah Sam's whole plot line here comes across as just really stupid. The whole "why can't I socialise with a current escort while I work in the white house?" Because you work in the white house, for the president, and she is doing something illegal Sam! This isn't difficult!
I feel a little sorry for Mandy, because Sorkin felt like he needed another woman, then couldn't think of anything for her to do. The panda plotline probably being the best example of this.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:23 AM on July 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
I feel a little sorry for Mandy, because Sorkin felt like he needed another woman, then couldn't think of anything for her to do. The panda plotline probably being the best example of this.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:23 AM on July 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Still, Mandy is the absolute worst. Always.
posted by obloquy at 9:02 PM on July 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by obloquy at 9:02 PM on July 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
The two things that stuck out to me in the episode are 1) the outfits, especially the men's suits, are the Ninety-est; 2) Bartlet's reaction to the information that they knew who shot down the plane and where they were cemented my admiration for him. It's one thing to be the avuncular know-it-all Nobel laureate. It's another to be able to master your anger and make the right decision for the nation.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:02 AM on July 3, 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 8:02 AM on July 3, 2014
I don't know if this is just me but I found it really surprising that nobody knew what "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" meant -- I don't know if it's just that internet argument taught me all the Latin-named logical fallacies, but these are guys who've been to law school or at least had Ivy League liberal arts educations, right?
It's a minor point, but when the West Wing hits a sour note for me, it's usually these "I'm going to show off how smart I am" moments, and they always make me want to answer "Not as much smarter than everybody else as you think."
posted by Jeanne at 9:44 AM on July 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's a minor point, but when the West Wing hits a sour note for me, it's usually these "I'm going to show off how smart I am" moments, and they always make me want to answer "Not as much smarter than everybody else as you think."
posted by Jeanne at 9:44 AM on July 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah -- Sorkin lampshades that a bit with the '27 lawyers in the room' comment, but while I might not be able to directly translate the words into English, I know that the phrase is used to mean, and I wouldn't have needed it explained to me like I was a kid in class. But pontificating on boring things was kinda Bartlet's thing, so it seems in character here.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:16 AM on July 3, 2014
posted by jacquilynne at 10:16 AM on July 3, 2014
I don't remember where or when I read it, but someone likened that scene to a class where all the students know the teacher is about to start harping on them and none of them wants to be the one to encourage it by answering.
posted by kagredon at 5:47 PM on July 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 5:47 PM on July 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't remember where or when I read it, but someone likened that scene to a class where all the students know the teacher is about to start harping on them and none of them wants to be the one to encourage it by answering.
Also, notice that Bartlet doesn't actually ask whether anyone but Josh knows it, and only assumes that CJ doesn't (from West Wing Transcripts):
posted by Etrigan at 5:57 PM on July 3, 2014
Also, notice that Bartlet doesn't actually ask whether anyone but Josh knows it, and only assumes that CJ doesn't (from West Wing Transcripts):
BARTLETI have to wonder whether they'd really settled on Bartlet being the Bartlet we all knew and loved, or whether Sorkin was still kind of hedging his bet on whether he was going to be kind of that pedantic know-it-all asshole he was in the pilot, and everyone knew that the best way to avoid getting blown out of the water was just to admit he was smarter than you early on (because, let's face it, no one wins an argument with the President of the United States).
C.J., on your tombstone, it's gonna read, 'Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.'
C.J.
Okay, but none of my visitors are going to be able to understand my tombstone.
BARTLET
Twenty-seven lawyers in the room, anybody know 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc?'
Josh?
JOSH
Uh, uh, post, after, after hoc, ergo, therefore, after hoc, therefore,
something else hoc.
BARTLET
Thank you. Next?
JOSH
Uh, if I'd gotten more credit on the 443...
BARTLET
Leo?
LEO
After it, therefore because of it.
posted by Etrigan at 5:57 PM on July 3, 2014
That's definitely part of it, I think. In the next episode he bites Charlie's head off in a nasty, angry sort of way that doesn't really fit the character that comes later. I don't think the book is really written on Bartlet at this point.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:55 PM on July 3, 2014
posted by jacquilynne at 7:55 PM on July 3, 2014
Does Bartlet ever stop being a pedantic know-it-all? I thought that was a fairly consistent throughline for him: all his life he's usually been the smartest person in the room (or at least the one with the best recall for obscure knowledge, which TV tends to confuse with actual intelligence), and now that he's the POTUS, he's always got a captive audience to show off for.
They do soften it as the show goes on, making him less aggressive about it and more of an absent-minded professor with an "oh, Dad" kind of vibe, but I've always found "know-it-all" to be one of the most consistent traits of the character.
posted by Zozo at 8:43 AM on July 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
They do soften it as the show goes on, making him less aggressive about it and more of an absent-minded professor with an "oh, Dad" kind of vibe, but I've always found "know-it-all" to be one of the most consistent traits of the character.
posted by Zozo at 8:43 AM on July 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
After Sheen was firmly established as the star of the show, he had to be written as less deus ex machina and more as a character, so he got less know-it-all. I'm thinking specifically of the bit where he shrugged helplessly at the idea of a filibuster because "All my time was in the House."
posted by Etrigan at 9:11 AM on July 4, 2014
posted by Etrigan at 9:11 AM on July 4, 2014
He definitely remains a know-it-all, but they soften him up a lot from the first couple of appearances. I would say Kindly Professor more than Absent Minded, but 'oh, Dad' is exactly the right way to describe how he ends up.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:16 AM on July 4, 2014
posted by jacquilynne at 9:16 AM on July 4, 2014
only assumes that CJ doesn't
To be fair, I don't think he assumes that CJ doesn't know, as much as she implies she doesn't know what it means with her comment about no one understanding what her tombstone will read.
The Morris subplot does give us a window into some of Bartlet's insecurities, but what we see here and what comes next is all heavily reminiscent of parts of The American President for me. But hey, the West Wing pilot is pretty much the same as the Sports Night pilot, and the Studio 60 pilot, and really isn't that far from The Newsroom pilot, and I still keep watching (and rewatching!), so what can you do?
I think Bartlet is always an insufferable know-it-all, and they spend most of the series trying to save him from the results of that, get him elected in spite of that, etc.
I hate this light, fluffy theme music and am ready for the "real" version to start. It's somewhat better, and the early version always just sounds wrong to me.
posted by terilou at 9:55 AM on July 5, 2014
To be fair, I don't think he assumes that CJ doesn't know, as much as she implies she doesn't know what it means with her comment about no one understanding what her tombstone will read.
The Morris subplot does give us a window into some of Bartlet's insecurities, but what we see here and what comes next is all heavily reminiscent of parts of The American President for me. But hey, the West Wing pilot is pretty much the same as the Sports Night pilot, and the Studio 60 pilot, and really isn't that far from The Newsroom pilot, and I still keep watching (and rewatching!), so what can you do?
I think Bartlet is always an insufferable know-it-all, and they spend most of the series trying to save him from the results of that, get him elected in spite of that, etc.
I hate this light, fluffy theme music and am ready for the "real" version to start. It's somewhat better, and the early version always just sounds wrong to me.
posted by terilou at 9:55 AM on July 5, 2014
only assumes that CJ doesn't
To be fair, I don't think he assumes that CJ doesn't know, as much as she implies she doesn't know what it means with her comment about no one understanding what her tombstone will read.
I agree that it's a fair point to assume that CJ is saying that she doesn't know either. But he doesn't actually give her a chance to rebut that assumption. He immediately takes the ball and gives it to Josh.
posted by Etrigan at 10:00 AM on July 5, 2014
To be fair, I don't think he assumes that CJ doesn't know, as much as she implies she doesn't know what it means with her comment about no one understanding what her tombstone will read.
I agree that it's a fair point to assume that CJ is saying that she doesn't know either. But he doesn't actually give her a chance to rebut that assumption. He immediately takes the ball and gives it to Josh.
posted by Etrigan at 10:00 AM on July 5, 2014
To be fair, I don't think he assumes that CJ doesn't know, as much as she implies she doesn't know what it means with her comment about no one understanding what her tombstone will read.
I agree that it's a fair point to assume that CJ is saying that she doesn't know either. But he doesn't actually give her a chance to rebut that assumption. He immediately takes the ball and gives it to Josh.
The more I think about it, the more I see this recurring theme of nearly every character constantly in competition to be the smartest-kid-in-the-room. Except, of course, for our proxies, Donna and in this season, CJ. Mandy is guilty of this too, except she's always wrong or right about wrong or inconsequential things.
On the upside, this tendency gives us the glory that is Nancy McNally so I'm inclined to forgive it.
posted by ApathyGirl at 6:55 PM on July 5, 2014
I agree that it's a fair point to assume that CJ is saying that she doesn't know either. But he doesn't actually give her a chance to rebut that assumption. He immediately takes the ball and gives it to Josh.
The more I think about it, the more I see this recurring theme of nearly every character constantly in competition to be the smartest-kid-in-the-room. Except, of course, for our proxies, Donna and in this season, CJ. Mandy is guilty of this too, except she's always wrong or right about wrong or inconsequential things.
On the upside, this tendency gives us the glory that is Nancy McNally so I'm inclined to forgive it.
posted by ApathyGirl at 6:55 PM on July 5, 2014
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And Sam! Sam, what on earth were you thinking? That was awful and I stopped watching partway through the scene at least three times. How dare you jeopardise someone's job like that?
posted by ambrosen at 9:31 AM on July 1, 2014