Arrow: The Fallen
April 23, 2015 8:29 PM - Season 3, Episode 20 - Subscribe
"So that happened."
Felicity and Oliver have sex.
Not that great, TBH. Three women in the cast left for him to shag and at this point, he might well have taken care of that in HK.
Maseo confirms his son is dead.
Probably from neglect.
Thea is restored byscummy-looking well water The Lazarus Pit and seems more or less fine.
Malcolm cries poorly for an actor of his stature and has really over stayed his welcome.
Felicity breaks up with Ray.
Even Ray should have seen that one coming.
Oh and Oliver becomes the heir to Ra's al Ghul. Thus ensuring many more episodes before he has to actually take up the mantle.
He could have just done that in the beginning as a delaying tactic and avoided all the suffering, no?
Favorite Quote:
Oliver (paraphrased): I knew Ra's was trying to kill my family and me but I never thought he'd succeed at hurting Thea even though he is a master swordsman with a legion at his command and she blithely runs around with a bodyguard or weapons. My bad.
Felicity and Oliver have sex.
Not that great, TBH. Three women in the cast left for him to shag and at this point, he might well have taken care of that in HK.
Maseo confirms his son is dead.
Probably from neglect.
Thea is restored by
Malcolm cries poorly for an actor of his stature and has really over stayed his welcome.
Felicity breaks up with Ray.
Even Ray should have seen that one coming.
Oh and Oliver becomes the heir to Ra's al Ghul. Thus ensuring many more episodes before he has to actually take up the mantle.
He could have just done that in the beginning as a delaying tactic and avoided all the suffering, no?
Favorite Quote:
Oliver (paraphrased): I knew Ra's was trying to kill my family and me but I never thought he'd succeed at hurting Thea even though he is a master swordsman with a legion at his command and she blithely runs around with a bodyguard or weapons. My bad.
I assumed that was just adrenaline rush.
They still haven't really established any reason it has to be leaving forever. I'm totally cool with shows leaving a lot of things between the moments and to slot in, but you need to have the trajectory telegraph it. The pitcher throws the ball, the batter swings. A pitcher could throw a ball over the plate or to a baseman, but the swing tells us where it was thrown because we know the game.
In the case of the League we don't get that. Yeah, the show has communicated that Ra's is a job not an immortal a la the comics. But we have no picture of something driving that leader outside himself. This episode muddied the water even more by telling us that the current Ra's was snatched from his life and forced into this job too. Which he did, leaving that family alive and out there somewhere.
Who he never just returned to? Took with him? He kept this job... why? He keeps running the League, presumably as killers for hire.... why? Clearly the Demon's Head can still get it on and raise a kid since we haveTalia Nyssa.
I think you can avoid that sort of question a long time and come up with interesting explanations. If you're a reader of the Dresden files books you know that Butcher came up with a very interesting way a big group fits into the universe and it answered some questions about things. But it was never necessary knowledge to explain the motivations we saw from those people for about a dozen books before. It was between the scenes stuff that expanded the world without making it make no damned sense.
Even this current development with the League doesn't much change it. You have to go along with some shit for a while but at the end of it you could potentially dismantle a hugely harmful organization forever. Unless you can't. And if you can't, why wasn't this known/examined before now? Or at least- why didn't people behave as if they didn't know this was the case?
So frustrating. Everyone does the things they need to do to get to the next script page.
posted by phearlez at 7:46 AM on April 24, 2015
They still haven't really established any reason it has to be leaving forever. I'm totally cool with shows leaving a lot of things between the moments and to slot in, but you need to have the trajectory telegraph it. The pitcher throws the ball, the batter swings. A pitcher could throw a ball over the plate or to a baseman, but the swing tells us where it was thrown because we know the game.
In the case of the League we don't get that. Yeah, the show has communicated that Ra's is a job not an immortal a la the comics. But we have no picture of something driving that leader outside himself. This episode muddied the water even more by telling us that the current Ra's was snatched from his life and forced into this job too. Which he did, leaving that family alive and out there somewhere.
Who he never just returned to? Took with him? He kept this job... why? He keeps running the League, presumably as killers for hire.... why? Clearly the Demon's Head can still get it on and raise a kid since we have
I think you can avoid that sort of question a long time and come up with interesting explanations. If you're a reader of the Dresden files books you know that Butcher came up with a very interesting way a big group fits into the universe and it answered some questions about things. But it was never necessary knowledge to explain the motivations we saw from those people for about a dozen books before. It was between the scenes stuff that expanded the world without making it make no damned sense.
Even this current development with the League doesn't much change it. You have to go along with some shit for a while but at the end of it you could potentially dismantle a hugely harmful organization forever. Unless you can't. And if you can't, why wasn't this known/examined before now? Or at least- why didn't people behave as if they didn't know this was the case?
So frustrating. Everyone does the things they need to do to get to the next script page.
posted by phearlez at 7:46 AM on April 24, 2015
ok, so is he "Raaaaas" or "Rassszzzz" or "Raesh"?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:17 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:17 AM on April 24, 2015
Felicity breaks up with Ray.
Even Ray should have seen that one coming.
I was so disappointed in the previous episode when it became clear they were going down this route. One of the things I've been liking about the season is Felicity's intelligence and clarity: she set a clear boundary with Oliver, choosing not to get caught up in any kind of ongoing drama with him; she moved on and started seeing someone else; the relationship with the someone else seemed like it was based on mutual respect and attraction (even if it would be great if she could date someone other than a guy she works with. One too many Pepper in these Potts, if you know what I'm saying).
I did see it coming in the sense that it's the typical way this story plays out. But I actually let myself hope that Arrow was going to do something different because it seemed for awhile like they were going to.
And I'm with phearlez on the question of why, once you become leader of the League of Assassins, you have to keep running the League of Assassins as it has always been run. What or who is holding power over Ra's? And if the answer is Nobody, then why can't it be changed?
I'd always pictured the League as a relatively small, secret, elite corps. The army of assassins that greeted Oliver et al when they arrived at Nanda Parbat took me by surprise. And then the army conveniently most disappeared for the interior scenes and fights.
Malcolm cries poorly for an actor of his stature and has really over stayed his welcome.
This show was my introduction to John Barrowman, and I thought he was a bad actor until I started seeing him in other things. Also, yes, what reason does Malcolm have for still being in the story?
posted by not that girl at 4:41 PM on April 24, 2015
Even Ray should have seen that one coming.
I was so disappointed in the previous episode when it became clear they were going down this route. One of the things I've been liking about the season is Felicity's intelligence and clarity: she set a clear boundary with Oliver, choosing not to get caught up in any kind of ongoing drama with him; she moved on and started seeing someone else; the relationship with the someone else seemed like it was based on mutual respect and attraction (even if it would be great if she could date someone other than a guy she works with. One too many Pepper in these Potts, if you know what I'm saying).
I did see it coming in the sense that it's the typical way this story plays out. But I actually let myself hope that Arrow was going to do something different because it seemed for awhile like they were going to.
And I'm with phearlez on the question of why, once you become leader of the League of Assassins, you have to keep running the League of Assassins as it has always been run. What or who is holding power over Ra's? And if the answer is Nobody, then why can't it be changed?
I'd always pictured the League as a relatively small, secret, elite corps. The army of assassins that greeted Oliver et al when they arrived at Nanda Parbat took me by surprise. And then the army conveniently most disappeared for the interior scenes and fights.
Malcolm cries poorly for an actor of his stature and has really over stayed his welcome.
This show was my introduction to John Barrowman, and I thought he was a bad actor until I started seeing him in other things. Also, yes, what reason does Malcolm have for still being in the story?
posted by not that girl at 4:41 PM on April 24, 2015
This show was my introduction to John Barrowman, and I thought he was a bad actor until I started seeing him in other things. Also, yes, what reason does Malcolm have for still being in the story?
When he gave Thea that whole speech about how now that the League of Assassins wasn't after him, he was free to stay with her in Starling City and just be a dad, I just.... arg! So what if the League isn't after him anymore? He killed umpteen-hundred people when he earthquake-machined the Glades, how is he constantly walking around Starling City undisguised without a mob of people recognizing him and beating him to death?
posted by oh yeah! at 8:04 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
When he gave Thea that whole speech about how now that the League of Assassins wasn't after him, he was free to stay with her in Starling City and just be a dad, I just.... arg! So what if the League isn't after him anymore? He killed umpteen-hundred people when he earthquake-machined the Glades, how is he constantly walking around Starling City undisguised without a mob of people recognizing him and beating him to death?
posted by oh yeah! at 8:04 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I'm with phearlez on the question of why, once you become leader of the League of Assassins, you have to keep running the League of Assassins as it has always been run. What or who is holding power over Ra's? And if the answer is Nobody, then why can't it be changed?
According to Merlin, once you go into the Lazarus Pit you come out a different person. Maybe the Pit is part of the process of becoming the new Ra's and Oliver will come out being an Assassin douchenozzel. Which maybe means the Pit is part of what controls the League? I don't know.
I have the same questions, but Merlin's comments suggested that to me.
posted by brundlefly at 2:57 AM on April 26, 2015
According to Merlin, once you go into the Lazarus Pit you come out a different person. Maybe the Pit is part of the process of becoming the new Ra's and Oliver will come out being an Assassin douchenozzel. Which maybe means the Pit is part of what controls the League? I don't know.
I have the same questions, but Merlin's comments suggested that to me.
posted by brundlefly at 2:57 AM on April 26, 2015
Which worries me. Oliver being corrupted somehow by the Pit seems like it could lead into worst-of-Supernatural territory.
posted by brundlefly at 2:59 AM on April 26, 2015
posted by brundlefly at 2:59 AM on April 26, 2015
He killed umpteen-hundred people when he earthquake-machined the Glades, how is he constantly walking around Starling City undisguised without a mob of people recognizing him and beating him to death?
Further, they never explained how he is still alive after Oliver totally killed him. Did he go into the Pit? How? The League didn't saction the undertaking, why would they bother reviving him?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:39 PM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Further, they never explained how he is still alive after Oliver totally killed him. Did he go into the Pit? How? The League didn't saction the undertaking, why would they bother reviving him?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:39 PM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
His name is Merlin. Magic!
posted by brundlefly at 12:41 AM on April 27, 2015
posted by brundlefly at 12:41 AM on April 27, 2015
I am pretty sure I remember him saying - possibly to Thea - some nonsense about slowing his heart rate etc to appear dead. Why nobody would notice a missing body...
posted by phearlez at 8:03 AM on April 27, 2015
posted by phearlez at 8:03 AM on April 27, 2015
I am pretty sure I remember him saying - possibly to Thea - some nonsense about slowing his heart rate etc to appear dead. Why nobody would notice a missing body...
How is that supposed to help when you've been stabbed in the heart?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:25 PM on April 27, 2015
How is that supposed to help when you've been stabbed in the heart?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:25 PM on April 27, 2015
Ah, ha! But you see Merlin had already removed his own heart and placed it in a secret vault for safekeeping.
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 7:26 PM on April 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 7:26 PM on April 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
naysayers, all of you
I thought this episode was a lot of fun except for every single flashback scene which managed to both be terribly disruptive to the interesting plotslines and also far too brief to add up to anything themselves.
Crackpot theory: Oliver really loses here, dissapears from Starling forever. The unnamed spin-off show staring Ray is actually the continuation of this show, with a new name to reflect that the Arrow is no longer around.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:13 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought this episode was a lot of fun except for every single flashback scene which managed to both be terribly disruptive to the interesting plotslines and also far too brief to add up to anything themselves.
Crackpot theory: Oliver really loses here, dissapears from Starling forever. The unnamed spin-off show staring Ray is actually the continuation of this show, with a new name to reflect that the Arrow is no longer around.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:13 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
They should really lose the flashbacks. I start browsing on my iPad out of boredom.
posted by Pendragon at 11:27 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 11:27 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
The flashbacks are terrible these days. They're either way too on the nose or completely disconnected from the main storyline in pacing, level of drama, etc. Or both.
posted by brundlefly at 4:59 PM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 4:59 PM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
They're either way too on the nose
Not even "on the nose", more like "explain it like I'm five." (Symbolism it? Metaphor it? whatever, it's like being hit with a big soft dumb hammer that says "This is MEANINGFUL!!")
Current-day Arrow desperately needs info from a baddie right effin' now? Cue the flashback where Amanda Waller forces Ollie to stick a big knife in a prisoner's leg. Anytime Ollie needs to work on his trust issues with Roy or Dig or Felicity, next thing you know there's Maseo & Ollie in HK arguing about what they should do next.
completely disconnected from the main storyline in pacing, level of drama, etc.
Yah, exactly. Also I think the pacing of the flashbacks is bad in & of itself, like you could edit them out & paste just the flashbacks together and it would still be just really boring or incomprehensible in lots of places. Plus where they get edited into the main storyline leaves me going, "Wait, what?" far too often.
Crackpot theory: Oliver really loses here, dissapears from Starling forever. The unnamed spin-off show staring Ray is actually the continuation of this show, with a new name to reflect that the Arrow is no longer around.
Well, you ain't the only crackpot around here, then, 'cause I was thinking the exact same thing while watching this episode.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:06 PM on April 29, 2015
Not even "on the nose", more like "explain it like I'm five." (Symbolism it? Metaphor it? whatever, it's like being hit with a big soft dumb hammer that says "This is MEANINGFUL!!")
Current-day Arrow desperately needs info from a baddie right effin' now? Cue the flashback where Amanda Waller forces Ollie to stick a big knife in a prisoner's leg. Anytime Ollie needs to work on his trust issues with Roy or Dig or Felicity, next thing you know there's Maseo & Ollie in HK arguing about what they should do next.
completely disconnected from the main storyline in pacing, level of drama, etc.
Yah, exactly. Also I think the pacing of the flashbacks is bad in & of itself, like you could edit them out & paste just the flashbacks together and it would still be just really boring or incomprehensible in lots of places. Plus where they get edited into the main storyline leaves me going, "Wait, what?" far too often.
Crackpot theory: Oliver really loses here, dissapears from Starling forever. The unnamed spin-off show staring Ray is actually the continuation of this show, with a new name to reflect that the Arrow is no longer around.
Well, you ain't the only crackpot around here, then, 'cause I was thinking the exact same thing while watching this episode.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:06 PM on April 29, 2015
Anytime Ollie needs to work on his trust issues with Roy or Dig or Felicity, next thing you know there's Maseo & Ollie in HK arguing about what they should do next.
I lived in Hong Kong in the 80s and 90s, and that creates a whole new problem for me with the Hong Kong flashbacks - they seem to take place in a version of Hong Kong that is created out of whole cloth by someone whose only exposure to China is the opening Shanghai scene to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:39 PM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I lived in Hong Kong in the 80s and 90s, and that creates a whole new problem for me with the Hong Kong flashbacks - they seem to take place in a version of Hong Kong that is created out of whole cloth by someone whose only exposure to China is the opening Shanghai scene to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:39 PM on April 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
He killed umpteen-hundred people when he earthquake-machined the Glades, how is he constantly walking around Starling City undisguised without a mob of people recognizing him and beating him to death?
Probably the same way Moira Queen was on the verge of being elected mayor of Starling City despite being an accomplice to said earthquake-machining. Namely, the citizens of Starling City have really really short memories. Which also explains how, after he returned from Nanda Parbat the first time, Oliver (as the Arrow) makes a big speech about how he would not leave Starling City again, then leaves in the very next episode.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:56 PM on May 11, 2015
Probably the same way Moira Queen was on the verge of being elected mayor of Starling City despite being an accomplice to said earthquake-machining. Namely, the citizens of Starling City have really really short memories. Which also explains how, after he returned from Nanda Parbat the first time, Oliver (as the Arrow) makes a big speech about how he would not leave Starling City again, then leaves in the very next episode.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:56 PM on May 11, 2015
Welp, this episode (finally made myself watch it) was insane.
I still want to know why R'as (or however it's spelled, fuck it) is so obsessive about recruiting some random non-assassin into the group, who already isn't a member, who said he wanted to stop killing, and who generally DOESN'T SEEM SUITED TO THE JOB SO MUCH. Especially when he's insisting on this dude over oh, his daughter, who's already on the job and seems quite competent. Why, because he didn't die and wasn't hot tubbed? That's...it? Was there a prophecy somewhere? Is R'as just super weird? Also, his logic about who should die (Sara's assassin...oh, wait) vs. who shouldn't (recruit who just got three other recruits offed) never makes any sense. The actor who plays him has great presence/delivery, but the logic behind this whole plot MAKES NO SENSE. And drives me crazy. Good job on all the actors involved, but the logic behind it is ridiculous.
Go Olicity, for whatever that's worth. You tried, girl. You weren't gonna win that one, but good on ya for trying.
I like Maseo and his wife (oddly enough) and how they fit into the plot now post-child-murder has been rather interesting, but the flashbacks have gotta go BECAUSE NO ONE CARES. Literally, there is no way to be shocked that Oliver dropped a virus 5 years ago or whatever. I love how every recap I've seen has barely mentioned it at all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:42 PM on May 19, 2015
I still want to know why R'as (or however it's spelled, fuck it) is so obsessive about recruiting some random non-assassin into the group, who already isn't a member, who said he wanted to stop killing, and who generally DOESN'T SEEM SUITED TO THE JOB SO MUCH. Especially when he's insisting on this dude over oh, his daughter, who's already on the job and seems quite competent. Why, because he didn't die and wasn't hot tubbed? That's...it? Was there a prophecy somewhere? Is R'as just super weird? Also, his logic about who should die (Sara's assassin...oh, wait) vs. who shouldn't (recruit who just got three other recruits offed) never makes any sense. The actor who plays him has great presence/delivery, but the logic behind this whole plot MAKES NO SENSE. And drives me crazy. Good job on all the actors involved, but the logic behind it is ridiculous.
Go Olicity, for whatever that's worth. You tried, girl. You weren't gonna win that one, but good on ya for trying.
I like Maseo and his wife (oddly enough) and how they fit into the plot now post-child-murder has been rather interesting, but the flashbacks have gotta go BECAUSE NO ONE CARES. Literally, there is no way to be shocked that Oliver dropped a virus 5 years ago or whatever. I love how every recap I've seen has barely mentioned it at all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:42 PM on May 19, 2015
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Thea wasn't fully dead so she was able to keep her memories, though it did look like it gave her some sort of superpower.
posted by FallowKing at 4:15 AM on April 24, 2015