Hannibal: Digestivo
July 17, 2015 2:46 AM - Season 3, Episode 7 - Subscribe

Aired in Canada, July 16. To air in the U.S., July 18. Mason has some old friends for dinner. Margot and Alana bond over issues of surrogacy. Will and Hannibal shatter the teacup, so to speak.
posted by crossoverman (355 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
"I want you to know exactly where I am, that way you can always find me."
posted by crossoverman at 2:48 AM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


Well, Chekov's eel paid off - just as the Thomas Harris book said it would. And the cattle prod happened, too.

Margot and Alana finding the pig gestating the human baby was... messed up. I guess that was a callback to the woman inside the horse. Or the woman inside the horse was foreshadowing for this.

Mason's face-off plan made about as much sense as anything that's happened recently. I mean, how else could he fulfill his vengeance against both men? Undercook their penises? A terrible waste of flesh.

The final scenes were beautifully written. Inside the house, with Will admitting the teacup was broken and will never reform, I felt a bit sad for them both. Almost teary. Stupid fucking show.

But the fact that Hannibal gave himself up so that Will would always know where he was, both impossibly romantic and as creepy as hell.
posted by crossoverman at 3:29 AM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


Oh my god. That was amazing. So many phalluses! So much to talk about! I'll wait though, I have to *ahem* digest this.
posted by h00py at 3:33 AM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


That was possibly the most insane hour of television I've ever experienced. Wow.

Will's "breakup" speech to Hannibal was devastating. I AM BEREFT.
posted by Pizzarina Sbarro at 4:44 AM on July 17, 2015 [11 favorites]


Now my murderheart is murderbroken.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:46 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


It was inevitable. To know , know, know him is to be absolutely fucked forever. Walk away, Will (although we know you don't, not really). Good on you for trying, though.
posted by h00py at 6:02 AM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh my god, how do you make TURNING YOURSELF IN maybe the worst thing you have ever done you UNBELIEVABLE BASTARD.

Jesus fuck, this show. Thank you, Amazon, for fucking up and streaming it in the U.S. on the old schedule instead of the new. I didn't need to sleep ever again, really.
posted by Stacey at 7:05 AM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


Why does Will bite Cordell? Why does Cordell hate them so much or is he jus a cannibal sadist given free range?
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:24 AM on July 17, 2015


I expect Cordell has been very well compensated for his services and perhaps calculated ruthless hate is just included among his contracted duties. Or he's developed a strong protective bond with Mason. No that's ridiculous. He's a cannibal sadist whose tastes are driven by dollar signs.
posted by wabbittwax at 10:09 AM on July 17, 2015


Well then.

On a scale of 1 to JESUS TAKE THE WHEEL, this was "I spent the whole episode with my mouth hanging open, but you wouldn't have been able to tell because my hands were both covering it, and the last 1/3 or so I was on the verge(r) of tears..."

Pretty much all the fake outs got me. I'd completely forgotten Chiyoh was in the area, so I legitimately feared for Jack. When we saw the graphic face peel back and then the initial wake up, I worried that this was how they were going to make Will "hard to look at" (despite knowing full well due to being mildly spoiled by some 3x08 stills that that wasn't the case). The branding of Hannibal was given away in a teaser video the official tumblr put up and yet somehow I didn't want to believe my eyes when it actually happened. I dunno. They got me.

I found it darkly comical that Will and Hannibal spend the first half of the episode in wheel chairs just like Mason's. Hannibal being just so incredibly amused during that first dinner while Will is kind of drained and increasingly horrified was funny. I didn't have any problem with Will biting Cordel. He's weakly protesting his circumstances. Perhaps hoping he can goad Cordell or Mason into killing him first before they go ahead with Mason's (kind of incredible) plan.

(And to respond to someone's comment about who Cordell is, all I believe we know is that he's a psycho chef/surgeon of the first order that Mason dug up somewhere and hired to help with his revenge. This is enough for me to go with it.)

At first I thought they were laying it on a little thick with Mason's unpleasantness. It is completely over the top, but I loved, loved, loved Joe Anderson's lunatic melt down in his final scene so much that I was willing to kind of retroactively go with it. The pig surrogate and then Mason's final death, as well as Alana's line about the cattle prod stimulation were all, "HOW DID THIS GET ON THE AIR," moments of the first order. I really didn't think they were going to, uh, quite go there. But of course they were. They went full Hannibal (as in the third book) and it was kind of gloriously insane and terrifying.

That last chunk though was... Heartbreaking. Will's finally come to terms with the fact that the plan he went to Europe with will never work, could never have worked. He's blunt with Hannibal, and it seems hurtful to Hannibal even as it doesn't seem like Will is trying to be vindictive about it or anything, for all that he has a right to. By the same token, Hannibal seems to have accepted that he can't get over Will, not even by eating him. Which makes his next move make total sense to me. That said, it's some seriously terrible shit to respond to what Will says by turning himself in and making it incredibly clear that it's a, "Yeah, well. I don't believe anything you just said. And now you know just where to find me when you're ready. I can wait."

God damn, what an episode. This could've been a season finale and in a certain sense it was.
posted by sparkletone at 10:57 AM on July 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


What did Hannibal mean when he said Chiyo was between iron and silver ?
posted by Pendragon at 11:25 AM on July 17, 2015


Well obviously she's either cobalt or nickel...

Or copper, or nickel, or zinc, or gallium, or germanium, or arsenic, or selenium, or bromine, or krypton, or rubidium, or strontium, or yttrium, or zirconium, or niobium, or molybdenum, or technetium, or ruthenium, or rhodium, or palladium.

Obviously.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:50 AM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


What did Hannibal mean when he said Chiyo was between iron and silver ?

He was complimenting her on her steadiness and stability. She put up with Cage Man for years and years, and then was very determined in her pursuit of Hannibal. He compliments her in a purple bit of dialogue that I assume was lifted from somewhere in the novels (as such things usually are). I assume Bryan will clarify during Saturday livetwet, but that was my read.
posted by sparkletone at 11:53 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


The curious thing for me was why she didn't shoot Hannibal rather than let the FBI take him after that "some beasts should not be caged" line. There's a theory some have floated that she will bust him out of BSHCI at some later point, which that line and subsequent behavior might back up, but I don't know if I buy that just yet.
posted by sparkletone at 11:57 AM on July 17, 2015


Seconded that Mason's been uncomfortably over the top this season, but this one made it all worth it. My god this was a perfect episode. I'm going to have to rewatch a few times to digest it but wow.
posted by yellowbinder at 12:12 PM on July 17, 2015


Seconded that Mason's been uncomfortably over the top this season

To clarify, this is the first time I was uncomfortable with it. He's always been an exaggerated, practically cartoonish character from the get go (CHILDREN'S TEARS, MAN-EATING HOGS), and I found his scenes in earlier episodes this season to frequently be sources of comedy (that spitters line is hilarious).

I think it's just that we get so much more of him in this episode, understandably, that it felt like a bit of overload? We get the face plan, and the branding, and the pig thing with Margot. It's a lot. Good thing they stuck the landing in paying all that off with his death scene!
posted by sparkletone at 12:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh my god, how do you make TURNING YOURSELF IN maybe the worst thing you have ever done you UNBELIEVABLE BASTARD.

Really, out of all the bad shit Hannibal has perpetrated, the two most cruelly abusive things are a) "saving" Bella from suicide and b) surrendering to the authorities. That smirk at the end: "hi, this is me, denying your agency and making it impossible to get the things you just asked for. Have a nice day!" while at the same time, in the house, it was clear that he genuinely can't bear Will not thinking of him or knowing where to find him. That whole last chunk was just . . . horribly lovely, and what a stellar performance by Mikkelsen throughout the episode.

Will Graham: I won't miss you. I don't want to think about you. I'm not going to find you.

Me: Oh, honey, wouldn't it be nice if that were true?

I half-expect the first scene next week to be Will on a Florida beach three years later, muttering, "I don't miss him. I don't think about him. I don't care where he is. I don't miss him. I don't think about him . . . ."

As for Mason, let's all sing: Wheeeeeeen an eel fists your throat as you drown in a moat, that's a moray! Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. I also love how all of the savage brutal shit Hannibal did happened offscreen and how after all Mason's "can't beat the Riz" bullshit, Alana arranges for Hannibal to be the Savior of the Day!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:20 PM on July 17, 2015 [16 favorites]


By the same token, Hannibal seems to have accepted that he can't get over Will, not even by eating him. Which makes his next move make total sense to me. That said, it's some seriously terrible shit to respond to what Will says by turning himself in and making it incredibly clear that it's a, "Yeah, well. I don't believe anything you just said. And now you know just where to find me when you're ready. I can wait."

Beautifully stated. One thing I gotta give Hannibal: he is not some whiny half-assed vacillating jerkweed commitment-phobe. Even with the memory palace as a refuge, he knows that living in captivity is not going to be a pony party but still goes all in with the grand, self-sacrificing, vicious, fucked-up, dysfunctional, twisted, devoted gesture. "I regret that I have but one theremin to give for my murder buddy."
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:48 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Will did not wish to have the lotion put on the skin.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:25 PM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]


if anyone would like to relive the brief moment of happiness when will and hams first got to Muskrat Farm, feel free to watch the director's cut
posted by Greg Nog at 8:50 PM on July 17, 2015 [19 favorites]


I have no words Greg. If I watched that every day forever (and I may), I would remember this time.
posted by yellowbinder at 9:53 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


He was complimenting her on her steadiness and stability. She put up with Cage Man for years and years, and then was very determined in her pursuit of Hannibal. He compliments her in a purple bit of dialogue that I assume was lifted from somewhere in the novels (as such things usually are). I assume Bryan will clarify during Saturday livetwet, but that was my read.

It definitely is, and what's more, I believe it was originally used in a Season 2 script to refer to Alana but got cut for time.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:53 PM on July 17, 2015


Also AHAHAHA HANNIBAL YOU UNBELIEVABLE DICK
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:53 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Alana going "hmm Mason's probably going to torture both of them... which gives us time!" was incredible
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:56 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


YIU CAN TELL I JUST WATCHED IT CAUSE MY FACE IS FROZEN IN DELIGHTED HORROR

DEAR GOD THE PIG SUGGORATE AND THE FACE LIFT ARE BOTH PERFECTLY THOMAS HARRIS TOUCHES THAT HE NEVER CAME UP WITH

AND YES THIS IS EFFECTIVELY A SERIES FINAL BUT JOW WITH SIX EPISODES OF EPILOGUE

GGGGAH. SO MANY TOUCHES, MASON HAS TOTALLY BITTEN HANNIBALS DUTCH BAROUE LOOK

WILL GETS BITEY AND EARNS THAT MASK FROM SEASON TWO

THEY DID ALL THE BOOK STUFF SOMEHOW

GAHH
posted by The Whelk at 10:01 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Check out Jack's face when Hannibal ~gazed~ at Will there at the end. He looked like he'd been sucking on a lemon.

I still have no idea what the point of Chiyoh was, to be perfectly honest. Sure, she moved some pieces around in this episode, but I kinda feel like she (and Will's jaunt to Lithuania) could have been removed from this season entirely with minimal changes, leaving more room for other shit (such as MORE SNAILS!)
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:02 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


So, ok, he can eat Will's brain no problem. But he can't handle getting dumped by the guy whose brain he just tried to eat? I guess it makes a certain amount of sense, in that Hannibal always has to be in control, but he COULD have run off and then come back for Will('s brains).

Or maybe it's the fact that Will called off the deathmatch. Hannibal was happy to kill him when he was trying to kill Hannibal, but now that he isn't... what, maybe there's hope?

Also, on another note, SO MUCH PENIS
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:06 PM on July 17, 2015


OF COURSE MASON REDUCES THE WHOLE THING TO A DICK SWALLOWING CONTEST, always go for the crudest possible path there

WTF PAJAMA PARTY WHAT WAS HE SERIOUSLY SAYING HED DO TO A LIMBLESS LECTER.

Gyhhhhhad

Chiyoh is like a character from another story, SO noticed, she appears in the enchantedly gothic world of Lecter Castle and never seems to interact with anyone who isn't like, magically touched by Hannibal , considering all the fairytale motifs and how she's framed as this otherworldly figure, I'm willing to go with a quasi mystical take on her character, like spending too much time in the fog haunted Castle Lectoradoon gives you long term fairytale radiation damage.
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


IMMA WATCH IT AGAIN TOMORROW SO. MUCH. STUFF.
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 PM on July 17, 2015


WTF PAJAMA PARTY WHAT WAS HE SERIOUSLY SAYING HED DO TO A LIMBLESS LECTER.

Man I was hoping I'd misinterpreted that line
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:12 PM on July 17, 2015


So, I am furiously googling to see how plausible that pig gestation was, and there is surprisingly little info on human/animal interspecific pregnancy. (It's almost as if mad scientists have not been planting viable human embryos into random animals to see what happens, the lazy bastards)
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:18 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


ALSO MASON DRESSED THEM FOR DINNER

I can't even process the whole Alana and Margot stuff right now, we can chew on that later I'm still not over the fact that Hannibal turned TURNING HIMSELF IN into the cruelest thing ever done by taking Will's forceful I'm Just Not That Into You and turning it into " Oh but ...maybe ...someday"

WAY TO KEEP WILL IN TORMENT FOREVER FUCKFACE I HOPE YOU GAG ON THAT INSITUTIONAL MEATLOAF
posted by The Whelk at 10:24 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Apparently, pigs don't share a blood supply with their fetuses, making it theoretically MORE possible than if it was a baby pig in a human woman. Still I'm surprised by the lack of a definitive answer.

God, what is this show doing to my browser history
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:25 PM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]


Serious, incest pig baby

Our show had an incest pig baby

And people say it's not relatable
posted by The Whelk at 10:26 PM on July 17, 2015 [27 favorites]


I honestly, no-jokes think that they sat down on day one in the writer's room this season, and Bryan just said something like "we've gotten away with it for too long. There is no way we make it past this season on NBC, or possibly anywhere. So you know what? LET'S GO FUCKING BONKERS INSANE. No ideas are bad ideas! Shirtless Mads in every episode! Multiple oral sex/cannibalism jokes! Fucking snails absolutely everywhere! Entire episodes of flashbacks! Bondage! Human babies gestating inside pigs! A flayed corpse sprouting hooves and antlers! Oh, and you thought it was homoerotic BEFORE?"

How is that list barely scratching the surface, HOW
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:36 PM on July 17, 2015 [26 favorites]


theres going out with a bang and then there's THIS
posted by The Whelk at 10:39 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


HANNIBAL LITERALLY CARRIES WILL LIKE A BRIDE OVER THE TRESHOLD
posted by The Whelk at 10:41 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]


Now that I can go on Tumblr again, someone made the very good point that of course Hannibal wouldn't run away again - he already tried that and it wasn't satisfying.

In seasons 1 and 2 their relationship was pretty lopsided. It was always Hannibal trying to turn Will into someone else, and Will resisting that influence in various ways. Even when Will started playing along with it, he wasn't consciously trying to flip the script and turn Hannibal into someone else, just catch him. Sure, we saw how attached Hannibal was to Will, but...

But, hoo boy. Will accidentally showed Hannibal what he'd been missing all that time, and I'm not sure it was really clear until now just HOW MUCH that rocked his world. I mean the man is an evil genius with apparently unlimited access to money - he did NOT need to do what he just did. The only reason to do that is if he wants literally nothing on Earth more than for Will to come to him willingly. Not for him to kidnap Will, since that was still an option up until the moment he turned himself in, because it wouldn't count.

In a world where he managed to get away with eating Will's brain, I wonder what he would have done afterward. Maybe after he was stopped, he realized that he really couldn't survive separation, that he'd just wind up discontented forever.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:52 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


mean the man is an evil genius with apparently unlimited access to money - he did NOT need to do what he just did. The only reason to do that is if he wants literally nothing on Earth more than for Will to come to him willingly. Not for him to kidnap Will, since that was still an option up until the moment he turned himself in, because it wouldn't count.

Oh god yes, and the fact that Hannibal, CANT HAVE SOMETHING HE WANTS, POSSIBLY THE ONLY THING HES EVER WANTED and he knows how CLOSE HE GOT oh god it's got to set his mightily cannibal heart on fire. Like he even outright says he could deal with never seeing Will again if Will thought about him from time to time and they met in thier shared telepathic mind palaces.

I mean, if you want to touch the Dante metaphor there, it's there.

And I said this before but apparently the next arc is going to be Will and Hannibal like, both trying to influence Dolarahyde, one to corruption to other to salvation and it's just you know that divorced couple that fights through thier kids....

Listen Hannibal " I never want to see you again" means "I never want to see you again" not " You know where to find me if the cancer I placed in the very center of soul grows! Bye Willy love yah!"
posted by The Whelk at 11:03 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Lol hey remember this: "My freedom then, you would take that from me. Confine me to a prison cell. Did you believe you could change me the way I've changed you?"

Will did take his freedom away and confine him to a cell. He just didn't do it directly. He forced Hannibal to do it to himself. By changing him.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:07 PM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


I just really want to show this episode to someone who has never seen the show before. I'm not going to, but I WANT to
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:09 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


He's learning to compromise! "look Will, I did what you asked! I put myself in a cage where you can always find me, just like you wanted! Let's talk about things and gaze into each other's eyes!"

"that was before you SKULL SAWED ME."

"every relationship has rough patches Will look at least I'm making an effort here, it's give and take."

Hannibal Lecter is a bad boyfriend but you can't say he's not committed. No wish washy here.
posted by The Whelk at 11:10 PM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


Ach, Gott. Feelings are washing over me.

They'll always have Firenze, folks.

We'll always have Firenze.
posted by Kinbote at 11:17 PM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


The beautiful and tragic story of a love strong enough to require one person to physically consume the other one so they can be even closer. (although the attempted skull sawing wasn't really Hannibal's usual honoring Schtick, it was a quiet admission that WILL WAS RIGHT, it was never about transforming people into art or honoring the meat, it was about control and dominance, and Hannibal's testy little LOOK WHAT YOURE MAKING ME DO YOU BEAUTIFUL JERK. Attitude during the skull saw dinner was proof of that. I think he's as angry that Will saw through the suits and bone china and purple prose.)
posted by The Whelk at 11:22 PM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


Kinda threw me that Manson's man servant was not only a gourmet chef but a specialist surgeon. But then again it makes him even more mirror Hannibal.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:33 AM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


Going back to crime of the week (well half season), with wacky high-jinks in the path lab is going to see a bit... odd now.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:34 AM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


Listen Hannibal " I never want to see you again" means "I never want to see you again" not " You know where to find me if the cancer I placed in the very center of soul grows! Bye Willy love yah!"

And I said this before but apparently the next arc is going to be Will and Hannibal like, both trying to influence Dolarahyde, one to corruption to other to salvation and it's just you know that divorced couple that fights through thier kids....

And the worst part is that Will IS that into him, so I think we're pretty safe from a return to mundane procedural since the whole Dolarhyde thing (who's already a pretty tragically creepy character just by himself) IS going to be this sick awful surrogate dance of sorrow and bitterness between Hannibal and Will.

God, immediately after the episode ended, I wanted to track down Molly in this timeframe and say, "Girl, if you happen to meet a scruffy introverted guy who used to work for the FBI, run. RUN. He is damaged beyond belief and not remotely over his toxic ex, and in a few years, it will all start up again and RUIN YOUR LIFE. I can't believe think that Will's attempt to become Ward "Living in Denial" Cleaver is going to end remotely well in this version of the story.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:39 AM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]


Meanwhile, Margot is FREE, FINALLY. The first time Hannibal told her, in his office, to kill Mason, it was just another Hannibal "let me corrupt you too" mindfuck. But in that scene with Margot and Alana in the pigsty (and Will and Alana's "since you got me into this with your half-assed shenanigans, I guess it's time to get your hands dirty, Dr. Holier-Than-Thou," "But but I was just trying to haaaaaaalp" conversation), Hannibal was RIGHT. She did need to kill Mason, and instead of the shitty manipulative "I'll help you . . . if you ask me" nonsense, he did help her. Especially after the incest pig baby (the minute Mason said "surrogate" I was like, oh shit, a pig), the Mason taunting and death scene was like Jack's righteous ass-kicking of Hannibal, only with 60% MORE JUSTICE. So cathartic. Hannibal really did save the day, and I think he and Alana dealt with at least some of their own break-up issues.

Plus Fuller gave Margot back her prominent spot in the Verger story arc that the Hannibal flick took away.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:58 AM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]


Lol hey remember this: "My freedom then, you would take that from me. Confine me to a prison cell. Did you believe you could change me the way I've changed you?"

Will did take his freedom away and confine him to a cell. He just didn't do it directly. He forced Hannibal to do it to himself. By changing him.


Fantastic point -- it does seem that, thanks to Will's influence, Hannibal (like Pinocchio and Dexter Morgan) has a bit of actual person inside his Person Suit now, which has to piss him off and probably makes him even more dangerous.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:11 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


OF COURSE MASON REDUCES THE WHOLE THING TO A DICK SWALLOWING CONTEST, always go for the crudest possible path there

Totally gross and vulgar as usual, but Mason is also kind of a Greek chorus (or the Voice of Tumblr) --

Hannigram: Our relationship is purely platonic.

Mason: C'mon guys, get real.

Hannigram: No, seriously. It's an exploration of straight male friendship; our showrunner said so.

Mason: Yeah, nobody believes that, least of all you.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:31 AM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]


"I know them. They are identically different, Hannibal and Will."

That's a neat turn of phrase from Jack.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:33 AM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]


Oh my god, HOW SMUG is Hannibal going to be when Will shows up in Baltimore? "Hi Will, ltns, although oddly, it feels as though only a week has passed since you said, what was it again?, something about a teacup? I certainly hope you didn't have any trouble finding your way. Google Maps can be so unreliable."
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:32 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Which is why I want Will to be SUCH A DICK TO HIM like professional enough so he cooperates but not letting him forget aaaaanything.

Of course in order to get stuff out of him he's going to have to do a little bit of the "now that I find you fascinating" stuff again, which ....slippery slope Will! Remember last time! Read the gift of fear or something!
posted by The Whelk at 9:34 AM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


Going back to crime of the week (well half season), with wacky high-jinks in the path lab is going to see a bit... odd now.

I say this as someone with no significant spoiler knowledge: if that's how you think Red Dragon is gonna go, I pretty much guarantee the show is gonna disabuse you of that notion very quickly.
posted by sparkletone at 11:49 AM on July 18, 2015


Wow, these past two days have been the best possible days to suffer agonizingly slow download speeds. I can't play back my Amazon purchases even to get screenshots.

cut off my broadband completely and I'd be dead in 3 days.
posted by tel3path at 12:56 PM on July 18, 2015


One of the smartest people on tumblr addresses the Chiyoh goodbye convo:
She was referring to herself. Hannibal asked her, “Will you watch over me?” And she said, “Not in a cage. Some beasts shouldn’t be caged,” meaning, “I will watch over you, but not if you’re caught, because I won’t be caged again.” My first reaction on watching it was, “Oh, shit, I’ve been jossed,” but after reviewing it and her departure in contentment at the end, I changed my mind: she watched over him all the way until the exact moment he was put in a cage, made no effort to prevent that occurrence, and her ending the episode disappearing back into the fairy land had all the feeling of a quest well-accomplished. I think it was meant to seem ambiguous at the time, to keep those who didn’t know Hannibal would caught midseason thinking he would get away, and so it reads one way if you are watching the first time and another after that. That ambiguity also reads like the kind of double speak that she would use to keep Hannibal from knowing that part of her intent. I think she stayed true to her quest to the end.
Barring complicating factors I am inclined to take this reading.
posted by sparkletone at 1:08 PM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


current liz: so they're gonna make a Hannibal Lecter show where he turns himself in because he's literally canonically in love with Will Graham

2010 liz: the fuck?

current liz: yeah it's going to be one of the most critically acclaimed and artistically ambitious shows ever made

2010 liz: THE FUCKING FUCK?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:44 PM on July 18, 2015 [20 favorites]


Re: Red Dragon, I watched Manhunter before reading the book and was very surprised at how complex and interesting Francis Dolarhyde was, and how much rich backstory he had that didn't make it into the movie. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons Fuller took on this project initially was to do justice to the character in a way the movies just didn't have time to do.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:47 PM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh hey on a totally different note, will Jack get the outcome Pazzi was initially hoping for, and be reinstated with honors at the FBI for 'catching' Hannibal?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:49 PM on July 18, 2015


Presumably. They even sort of touch on that in the dialogue as Hannibal's handing himself over.
posted by sparkletone at 1:54 PM on July 18, 2015


2010 liz: THE FUCKING FUCK?

Eddie Izzard and Scully are in it. And that one dude from Kids In The Hall. You'll flip.
posted by sparkletone at 2:36 PM on July 18, 2015 [11 favorites]


Also: canonically queer Caroline Dhavernas. And puppies. You're gonna love it, 2010 Stacey.
posted by Stacey at 2:40 PM on July 18, 2015 [5 favorites]


Re: Red Dragon, I watched Manhunter before reading the book and was very surprised at how complex and interesting Francis Dolarhyde was.

Me too, and it's been so long since I read it that right after I saw the Ep 08-13 promo, I ordered a new copy so I can hopefully re-read it before Saturday. Devoting 6 hours (minus Olive Garden ads) to this storyline is gonna be great.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:29 PM on July 18, 2015


I am so excited for six hours devoted to Red Dragon
posted by The Whelk at 3:46 PM on July 18, 2015


so ready 2 become even if I look depressing instead of super hot in the booty shorts.
posted by sparkletone at 4:06 PM on July 18, 2015


Hannibal to Will: "I believe that your decision making skills aren't the best right now. I'm taking you into receivership. We're not broken up."
posted by kythuen at 6:02 PM on July 18, 2015 [5 favorites]


I love how Mason dressed them in tacky versions of the show's stylish suits, all loud and clashing and garish
posted by The Whelk at 7:28 PM on July 18, 2015


At the first strike, I thought the eel was a leftover puppet from Land of the Lost, but the effects ramped up nicely.
posted by detachd at 7:49 PM on July 18, 2015


Mason's red Face and hair like horns, a cheap theatre devil.
posted by The Whelk at 7:53 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


wHY NO KISSING

I AM SO PATIENT WHERE IS KISS
posted by poffin boffin at 8:01 PM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]


I AM EMOTIONS
posted by poffin boffin at 8:01 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


OK, it's a little dusty in here.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:02 PM on July 18, 2015


and extremely hungry which is always vexing
posted by poffin boffin at 8:02 PM on July 18, 2015


On third viewing: Yep. I'm still a mess. This fucking show.
posted by sparkletone at 8:02 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hannibal is like Will Graham's Dennis Duffy
posted by The Whelk at 8:03 PM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


Fanfare: Chekhov's eel
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:04 PM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


Irreconcilable differences, so sad. "Seeya Katie." "Seeya Hubbell."
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:08 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


That was seriously well done. I cannot believe I just saw that on broadcast TV. Also, Will biting Cordell is a direct quote of something Hannibal did in the flashback prehistory of the novel Red Dragon, biting a nurse while in max security prison. The series actually quotes that BACK to the otherwise incomprehensible recurring S1 graf of Will wearing Hannibal's face mask. In the novels, that mask only ever existed because Hannibal bit the nurse.

It's seriously like watching a plate of scrambled eggs assemble itself into a chicken and cluck.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:09 PM on July 18, 2015 [11 favorites]


i have been waiting all my life for this red dragon arc ngl
posted by poffin boffin at 8:10 PM on July 18, 2015


SIX GLORIOUS EPISODES OF IT
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 PM on July 18, 2015


I'm not going to go into details of course, but I will say that the Canadian and US broadcasts had different preview clips at the end and the US one had stuff that's not been seen before. And OH GOD MY BODY IS READY (but not my feelings). I'm so excited for next week.
posted by sparkletone at 8:14 PM on July 18, 2015


"oh my God this was everything I've ever wanted, with none of the things I didn't" -- Cleolinda. Awwww :3
posted by sparkletone at 8:15 PM on July 18, 2015


I was excited for the red dragon arc before the promo and now I'm eeeeeeeeeeee
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 PM on July 18, 2015


And how long has it been since we've seen Will do the pendulum thing, huh? PENDULUM THING FTW.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:18 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


I WON SOMETHING ON TWITTER BECAUSE I MADE A JOKE ABOUT HANNIBAL

THIS IS THE PERFECT ENCAPSULATION OF HOW MY LIFE WORKS APPARENTLY
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]


Can we just take a moment to appreciate the genius acting abilities of Mads Mikkelson? Since all I'd ever seen him in was Casino Royale, I didn't get him fully appreciate what he was doing until I watched The Hunt and a couple of his Danish films in which he plays the romantic lead and damn if those skills didn't pay off in that scene in which Hannibal turns himself in because you can see the exact moment Will Graham breaks his heart. Not just any actor can pull that off.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:32 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]


Can someone with video editing ability take that Simpsons scene "look, you can pinpoint the exact second his heart rips in half" scene but with Hannibal instead of Ralph
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:34 PM on July 18, 2015 [15 favorites]


I'm almost afraid to ask this, but what did you win, The Whelk?
Does it involve food?
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:34 PM on July 18, 2015


#IDon'tChooChooChooseYou
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:35 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]


I have no idea what the Freddie Lounds account on Twitter is gonna send me but I hope it's not a head


Who am I kidding I'd turn that head into a charming sideboard decoration
posted by The Whelk at 8:37 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


PSA: Hannibal the movie is airing on one of the Cinemax channels right know in case anyone wants to watch Paul Krendler eat his own brains and ponder how exactly Hannibal got Clarice into that dress without boob tape.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:37 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Can we just take a moment to appreciate the genius acting abilities of Mads Mikkelson?

Also loved his "proud and pleased as punch" reaction when Will sank his teeth into Cordell's cheek.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:39 PM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]


Not just any actor can pull that off.

He's a joy to watch almost always but especially here. It's such a restrained performance 99% of the time, but when he lets it out, that makes it hit all the harder. We got a sense of the ~true monster~ last season in the finale when he hisses, "In the pantry," at Alana... And we get a little bit of it again in this episode albeit less so because he's still In Some Shit™. I hope he is every bit the sassy, terrible motherfucker we know he can be in the coming weeks. He has nothing left to hide.
posted by sparkletone at 8:48 PM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


apparently cordell is some weird amalgamation of book cordell and dr doemling? why

WHERE IS NURSE BARNEY FOR FUCK'S SAKE
posted by poffin boffin at 8:48 PM on July 18, 2015


Barney is taking care of the pigeons. Hopefully he's also taking care of Will's dogs, because WHERE THE FUCK ARE WILL'S DOGS?
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:50 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


eating faces and taking names
posted by poffin boffin at 8:52 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


And jeez, when Hannibal comes back in from seeing Chiyo off and Will is waking up, you know he's been sitting in that chair doing equations and watching over Will (and not eating his brain) all night. And he's sincere and kind to Chiyo. He really is letting it all hang out compared to Mr. Expressionless of season 1.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:57 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


WRITING EQUATIONS

IN REVERSE

SO HE CAN SAY HE WAS TRYING TO REVERSE TIME

AND GET THE INSANITY PLEE

EEEEEE
posted by The Whelk at 9:03 PM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


Barney is out of bounds because he originated in Silence, just as Clarice and Buffalo Bill did. (Outside those three there aren't really any.)
posted by sparkletone at 9:10 PM on July 18, 2015


Saw a gifset of the biting scene, and you can see how right afterward, Will stoically stares into space before slowly, almost involuntarily glancing over at Hannibal. Like he didn't want to want his approval for doing it, but totally did want it
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:17 PM on July 18, 2015 [15 favorites]


Both the AV Club and Sepinwall were way into this episode.
posted by sparkletone at 9:29 PM on July 18, 2015


Also, I like how we're coming back to earth in this - we started literally up in the air with Hannibal and Bedelia and then roamed around the fairytale world of Castle Lecter and the darkly comic plazzo of Dr. Fell and Will's mind palace to end up back in Maryland, on home turf, even with the Verger Estate Horror Night we're back in Wolf Trap and the FBI, the fever has broken.

It's nicely circular in a series that does circular themes and plotting really well.
posted by The Whelk at 9:56 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]


From the IGN review: "As much as all of us who love Hannibal bemoan the show not becoming a big hit, let’s take note of the fact that this is a series that just intercut the graphic depiction of a man’s flesh being peeled away from his skull with a dead human baby being removed from inside a pig."

...I mean

like when you take a few steps back and think about it like that, yeah
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:24 PM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]


but i want to devour my enemies in a florentine palazzo now
posted by poffin boffin at 10:39 PM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


instead of just air assassinating them
posted by poffin boffin at 10:40 PM on July 18, 2015


HANNIBAL LITERALLY CARRIES WILL LIKE A BRIDE OVER THE TRESHOLD

Through the snow. Like Clarice carrying the lamb.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:33 PM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]


Totally stole Ramsay Snow's sausage joke, though.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:35 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Following up on Bringer Tom's comment above, Mason says to Margot something like the surrogate is roomy in a way that strongly references Hannibal in Silence of the Lambs asking Clarice if Buffalo Bill's victims were "roomy" or rangy. I can't believe it's just coincidence.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 11:36 PM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]


I think what I mean about Chiyoh is that I see her cousin to the series' dream figures, the Wendigo and the Raven Stag, all of them sharp silhouettes in black -- and our characters have to have one foot in the dream/horror/fairy world to see them but Chiyoh feels more like someone from that dream world who has one foot in the real world.

Cause she comes from Castle Lecter where there's no time and full of fog and she doesn't seem to be tied up in anything resembling human concerns? She's less believable as an actual human being and more believable as this literal otherworldly creature who then retreats into the woods when done
posted by The Whelk at 11:36 PM on July 18, 2015 [5 favorites]


(not rangy)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 11:37 PM on July 18, 2015


Incredible episode, as others have noted; I cannot believe I was watching network TV. The surrogate pig / face transplant-w/o-anesthetic back-to-back was an insane amount of horror to pile on!

Mads will win an Emmy for his performance.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 11:39 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hey, I think it was only just announced. The season/series finale is called "The Wrath of the Lamb". I presume, with allusions noted above, that the lamb is Will.
posted by crossoverman at 11:40 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


Another SoTL allusion: Cordell's face on Mason :: Pembry's face on Hannibal.

This was a really intense hour of TV; would be even more so without being interrupted by perky commercial breaks.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:41 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


It really could've benefited from one of those "no commercial interruptions/sponsored by" things.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 11:47 PM on July 18, 2015


I also like how we come back to this shared motif of a Really Bad Night In A House. From the Hobbs' suburbian home to a Baltimore townhouse to a Country Estate.
posted by The Whelk at 11:50 PM on July 18, 2015


The "roomy" line, a reference to Lecter asking Clarice if Bill's West Virginia victim was "big through the hips? roomy?":
Does Dr. Bloom want children? I'm sure you've had a chance to check under the hood by now.
How's the uterus, intact? Are the hips childbearing? Roomy?
I'm pretty sure also that "check under the hood" is Fuller slipping a sly clitoral joke under the S&P radar.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:52 PM on July 18, 2015


I mean when we saw Hannibal with a bloody hammer I flashed to the surprisingly great , vaguely class warfare-y home invasion film "You're Next" so I think all the killing and flaying of Cordell and the ..milking (another farm theme) of Mason taking place against this

Also you can't tell me Alana didn't use her cane to push in that cattle prod in the off-camera scenes. My head canon. I have it.
posted by The Whelk at 11:54 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


the skipping over of Cordell's death and Mason's indignity kinda felt like in Winter Soldier when they totally skip over how Falcon and Nat and crew steal the secret military prototype, cause we know these characters can do that and we have BIGGER THINGS TO GET TO
posted by The Whelk at 11:57 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


except I now kind of want to write all of Margot's thoughts while that whole thing was happening and how when Alana said they're all dead she didn't believe it cause the first time she felt alive

god dammit the show is fanfic it shouldn't make more fanfic
posted by The Whelk at 12:13 AM on July 19, 2015


Margot is is all no Hannibal Lecter was a very good friend and a very good mentor for me and he always had my best interests at heart and sure my soon to wife disagrees but we all came out of that on top.
posted by The Whelk at 12:14 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


If I was sadistic I'd say Alana's by Mason's sperm son would turn up as the kid at the end of the Hannibal movie that Lecter feeds brains too.

Cause I believe in a future season and I also want Hannibal like reproducing himself on someone, like a Verger heir, who has the money and connections to be Him.

Or I'm just stuck on the idea that Hannibal wants to create an entire class of society like him, a new stage in vampire consumption, so he won't be alone.

mean the show bears that out in that he was basically running the school for exceptional psychopaths at one point
posted by The Whelk at 12:21 AM on July 19, 2015


I have memorized Greg's latest recap and recited it to all members of the household, beast and human.
posted by angrycat at 5:25 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Upon second watch, Dinnertime With Mason is even more hilarious now that I'm not tense and freaked out. I'm so glad the show found time for another bit of Smug Happy Duckling Hannibal, which is my favorite Hannibal. No one ever believes me that this show is actually really funny, in and around the incest pig babies and branding.
posted by Stacey at 5:40 AM on July 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


I laughed out loud many times, in between oh my godding and whaaaating. The many, many dick references were sublime.
posted by h00py at 5:43 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes, this is like Hannibal's idea of a fun diverting weekend house party in the countryside. He's curious about what will happen, and Mason may be the world's biggest offensive boor, but he's not boring. Plus Hannibal has to be tickled by Mason's shameless and incompetent mimicry of his own aesthetic and persona. And he gets to enjoy it all with Will in attendance? Perfect.

Meanwhile, you can see why Will is increasingly dismayed and finally dumps Hannibal (or attempts to) because from his point of view, the three or four days since Chiyo shoved him off the train have been Worst. Date. Ever. Like if you enjoy attending poetry readings and your bf prefers bowling.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:01 AM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Next up, I am off to rewrite "A Weekend in the Country" to be about Hannigram. I bet Sondheim likes this show.
posted by Stacey at 6:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


On reflection I am amazed at how far ahead some of this was foreshadowed. Fuller had to know he was aiming for something like this back in S1 with all the odd stuff happening to Will that happened to Hannibal in the books. And he gave the Wound Man scene to Miriam Lass because he knew even then he wouldn't need it for Will.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:37 AM on July 19, 2015


I'm a little disappointed the've already used the 'aftershave / bottle with a ship on it' bit from Red Dragon because that's creepy as all hell in context. And I'm wondering if they are going to give will a family (which I presume the'd have to do a time jump for)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:50 AM on July 19, 2015


I'm a little disappointed the've already used the 'aftershave / bottle with a ship on it' bit from Red Dragon because that's creepy as all hell in context.

I was actually thinking about tracking down the "Will meets Hannibal in prison" scenes from the book and both movies before next week, to see how this fourth iteration compared to the previous ones.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:00 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


It amuses me to think that the version of Hannibal's capture from the books is just the Cliff Notes version that this Will gives to people in hopes that they won't look into it any further.

"So you were investigating the Ripper murders, you met Hannibal Lecter, you figured out it was him, he gutted you, and then the FBI arrested him?"

"Yeah that's about the long and short of it"

"And all that stuff took place over the course of like a day, right?"

"...hey, look over there!"
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [7 favorites]


And I'm wondering if they are going to give will a family (which I presume the'd have to do a time jump for)

Imagine Will's wife's kid and Alana and Margot's kid, aged up to their teens, hanging out and smoking behind the gym and talking about their astonishingly fucked up parents
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:07 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]


Seen on Tumblr: "Bryan Fuller will not rest until every single character has a cane."
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:58 AM on July 19, 2015 [9 favorites]


Despite him being so blank this season somehow I could actually empathize with Will at the end. I'd be happy to be done with Hannibal. It has transformed so much and been so poor dramatically that I'd be fine if the cancellation took effect now.

But, no. They've got to dangle a Red Dragon in front of me. I don't expect it will go well but I know I'm going to have to visit anyway.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:06 AM on July 19, 2015


Tod VanDerWerff, Vox: crazycakes bananapants
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:10 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Alana woke up under black bedding again. She also thought she could just watch, and she was putting faith in a state agency to do her violence for her.

I have to hand it to her - her ability to receive feedback and act on it has turned around completely. No sooner does Will advise her on what it will take to finish what she started - violence by her own hand or someone else's - than she's picking up a gun and shooting one of the mobsters, almost as a proof of concept. Likewise, when Chilton taunted her that he can say she didn't warn him, but she can't say the same of him - on rewatch I made the connection between that and her warning Pazzi. She heard Chilton's criticism, took it in, and acted on it.

And then she sets Hannibal on someone knowing that she's doing it.

Another thing that's changed in Alana is her ability to tolerate plain speaking. The bluntness this time around was such a contrast from the doublespeak and evasion of the previous two seasons. It's no wonder old Alana preferred to be blind when this is what there is to see.

I really felt for Margot holding her stillborn baby. Just reinforces that as much as she wants to be heartless and ruthless, she isn't. I always knew she would value the baby for who it was, not just as a bargaining chip, but what a way for us to find that out.
posted by tel3path at 9:18 AM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


And Will finally clears up all that business about him being EEval and DaaaarrKKKKKK. It's just as he says - he tolerates it. It's Hannibal who delights in it.

One thing I notice about this season is that Will has been speaking absolutely plainly from start to finish. He has been completely transparent at every moment about everything he thinks, feels, and intends.

Of course this gets him a ton of criticism from the fandom - boooo! How can he feel this way or that way about Hannibal! He should just want to kill him, end of story! Well, sorry, there's more to reality than that.

The trouble is that by being so plain speaking, Will has been giving voice to the unmentionable. That was what he was hired to do by the FBI in the first place. That was why he was eventually jailed - for thoughtcrime. And now he's been openly voicing his unacceptable thoughts and feelings and it's still unpalatable - of course, having thoughts and feelings obviously makes him as bad as Hannibal, because thinking "gee, I secretly wanted to run away with Hannibal but didn't because it would have been wrong, but now I think I could've saved Abigail's life by doing so" and "let me imagine what version of Abigail could possibly have tolerated a Murder Family lifestyle, actually no that doesn't really work, a place wasn't actually made for her in this world, sigh" -

And then he says to Hannibal that he feels like he's guilty of every crime Hannibal was ever accused of, well I think the fandom thinks that as well judging by what I've been reading.

Sigh. We don't, so far, have thought police, and I'm glad to keep it that way.
posted by tel3path at 9:29 AM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Poor Alana, getting an accelerated course in everything Will had to learn last season. Sacrificing her soul to save Will.

I've been pondering what it meant, that hospital room scene with Alana not even covered by a blanket, and I can only see it as Alana stripped of every pretense. She could put up a front for manipulative purposes, but she has not told a lie to herself since Chilton came in and taunted her. I don't know if I could do as she has done.
posted by tel3path at 9:32 AM on July 19, 2015


And the look of "awww fuck not you again" on Will's face when Hanni popped out of the shadows like "surprise bitch, bet you thought you'd seen the last of me".

I grant that Will is being awfully ungrateful today. Like, EVERYBODY saved Will Graham, and do they get any thanks for it? Rude.
posted by tel3path at 9:43 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I like that Alana had to "die" before she could actually take responsibly for something even if it was ugly. Very much the observation or participation question from before
posted by The Whelk at 9:49 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


You know, I bet Hannibal was a bit tired after a long several days' being tortured and branded and bound by all four limbs and then doing surgery and killing Cordell and carrying Will 31 miles on foot and bathing him and tending to his injuries and tucking him in and staying up all night doing math.

He turned himself in cos he didn't want to admit he needed a lie down and a nice cup of tea. It would ruin his image as an invincible death machine.
posted by tel3path at 10:58 AM on July 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


Say, I'm wondering about the legal realities behind Margot and Alana's plan. If a person's will says that their biological heir will inherit everything, and that heir does not yet exist at the time of that person's death but could potentially exist because of stored sperm... I mean I find it hard to imagine that there's even any legal precedent for that
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:03 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, the only thing I can guess is that they got the turkey baster out quick smart.

Another possibility is that the pig baby counts as an heir. The problem there is that it was stillborn and never took a breath. The fetal heart monitor verifies that. Presumably it was only being kept alive by Cordell tending to it and when he went, it went. Or else Mason killed it again for shits and giggles, now that a better host had appeared on the scene and now that there was a possibility of it being a Mason+Margot baby rather than a Will+Margot baby.
posted by tel3path at 11:07 AM on July 19, 2015


Well teach me to post before googling. Those links clarify that this issue has come up legally but the precedent is iffy and it varies by state law.

And this link suggests that Margot and Alana, as Maryland residents, may be in the clear:

Maryland also addressed the issue with a new law in 2012. That law specifies that if the decedent dies without a will, the aforementioned definition of “child” applies as long as the child is born within two years of the testator’s death.

I gotta find that law!
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:10 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm kind of uncomfortable with all I'm reading about Alana being badass and unstoppable and everything like that. She is, but we're also - CD is economical and packs a lot into a little bit of screen time, &c - getting an idea of just what it's costing her. Will's conversation with her was there to point that out to us - it's not just "you go, you badass vengeance vixen", we're supposed to feel bad for the fact that the ONLY way she can make things right is to do wrong. You can never truly do evil so that good will result, but that's what Alana has available to her and because she is brave, she does it.

They could've turned this into a cheap "vengeance demon is vengeful, woohoo" thing, except that they couldn't because that is not how this show ever has worked, or ever will work. But take away those few nuances - and that conversation in which a lot of people think Will was being "mean" to her but he's really just laying the cards on the table and emphasizing to us as well as her that he's trodden this road himself and at great cost, and now she is about to pay the same cost.
posted by tel3path at 11:11 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, did Mason die without a will? It was Daddy's will, wasn't it? He wouldn't have felt the need to make his own will because Daddy's dynasty trust would have overridden anything Mason drafted, and it was all to Mason's advantage anyway.
posted by tel3path at 11:12 AM on July 19, 2015


I kind of enjoyed that Post Mortem with Dhavernas & Isabelle. So nice to see two girls hanging out and chattering the normal way, even though it was outside the confines of the show.
posted by tel3path at 11:15 AM on July 19, 2015


Hmm, actually it looks like the Maryland law would require Mason to have explicitly agreed before death to having his sperm inherit.

(2) A child conceived from the genetic material of a person after the death of the person if:
(i) The person consented in a written record to use of the person’s genetic material for posthumous conception in accordance with the requirements of § 20–111 of the Health – General Article;
(ii) The person consented in a written record to be the parent of a child posthumously conceived using the person’s genetic material;
(iii) The child is born within 2 years of the person's death


and

(b) A person may not use sperm or eggs from a known donor for the purpose of assisted reproduction, if:
(1) The person knows that the known donor died and did not give consent for the posthumous use of the sperm or eggs
*

HOWEVER, this seems like it would be very easy to forge, and if they produced a convincing forgery, it would be 100% legal for the child to inherit the dynasty trust.

*Hilariously to me, this is a misdemeanor carrying a $1000 fine, or a higher fine for subsequent offenses. Like, how did THAT come up?
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:20 AM on July 19, 2015


I think it matters, also, that Mason fell through glass.

Pushing Hannibal through glass was the first thing Jack did to him.

Also, seeing Jack back with the FBI takes on a whole new significance now. Instead of thinking "well, here comes trouble" you think "well, at least one person in the FBI is actually interested in getting some justice done, so maybe there's hope for it as an institution".

I can't believe all what I'm reading in the fandom about Will being mean and useless. Do they not think it might be a bit tiring getting shot and having your skull sawed open and then finding yourself chez Verger?

Then Alana walks in and Will must be thinking, based on past experience: as if by magic, Shlemiel appears, I can see my last iota of hope galloping over the horizon with its arse on fire. But she does hear his advice and she does follow through, and succeeds better than anyone had any right to expect.

When she talks about how her views have been evolving, that's huge. She has the ability to change her mind now, and change her plans continuously based on incoming information, which she never had before.

And the use of the word "evolve" is painfully ironic too. "Adapt, evolve, become" only ever meant regressing towards death and the primitive.
posted by tel3path at 11:23 AM on July 19, 2015


But Mason did consent to it - he was talking to Margot about it. He didn't consent to being dead though, which is awkward.
posted by tel3path at 11:24 AM on July 19, 2015


But Mason did consent to it - he was talking to Margot about it. He didn't consent to being dead though, which is awkward.

No that's the issue - his being dead legally does make a difference, regardless of what he was planning. There was actually a Supreme Court case establishing that, even if a husband and wife were actively trying to conceive before the husband died, a posthumously conceived child wasn't necessarily an heir unless state law said it was.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:27 AM on July 19, 2015


Ah, guess they'll have to forge something saying that Alana was hired for surrogacy services.
posted by tel3path at 11:28 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm just pleasantly surprised that there's actually an existing legal avenue for their plan to work! I was perfectly ready to chalk it all up to 'eh, Hannibal operates on dream logic, whatever' but this is even better.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:32 AM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Truth is stranger than fiction. Really.

I think they've decisively explained the Hannibal Never Getting Caught/No Evidence Ever thing not by "dream logic" but by incentive. The Contorno turned their attention to Hannibal when they were incentivized, not a moment sooner.

When Alana said "better buy a whole department" she was speaking from experience. The BAU was more expensive because Hannibal had to buy some key people's affections - they weren't corruptible via money or really any tangible, recognizable incentive like that. But they were bought.
posted by tel3path at 11:40 AM on July 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


And Will finally clears up all that business about him being EEval and DaaaarrKKKKKK. It's just as he says - he tolerates it. It's Hannibal who delights in it.

Well, for the moment, sort of. Who knows what the future will bring? And he and Bedelia are both maybe kidding themselves a little about having NO appetite, when they have been kind of vicarious murder tourists on some level.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:50 AM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Although I think that's more applicable to Bedelia; Hannibal's a way for her to have this little scary thrill ride and then go back to her real life scot free, whereas for Will, being with Hannibal is the end in itself, and the "unattractive qualities" that are part of the package are the cost of doing business. It's just dangerous for Will because his empathetic chameleon thing means if he tolerates something, he can start to authentically feel it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:00 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Will may not be Hannibal-level insane, but the whole reason Hannibal pursued him in the first place is the fact that he has the capacity to enjoy killing people. From the second episode of the series:

Hannibal: It wasn't the act of killing Hobbs that got you down, was it?... Did you really feel so bad because killing him felt so good?
Will [who is visibly trembling and can barely manage to whisper this]: ...I liked killing Hobbs.


In the book, this is an accusation that Hannibal throws in Will's face as evidence that Will is just as bad as he is. But of course, in the show, it all takes place in therapy, as part of Hannibal's attempt to help transform Will.

And then later in the season we have this:

Abigail: I thought there was something wrong with me because I didn't feel ugly when I killed Nick Boyle. I felt good. That's why it was so easy to lie about it.
Will: Like you didn't do anything wrong.
Abigail: Feel like you'd done something wrong when you killed my dad?
Will: I felt terrified. And... then I felt powerful.
Abigail: It felt good to get to end it. To stop it all.


And this is all in reference to something that happened long before Hannibal got inside Will's head.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:02 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


It really is too bad that Hannibal didn't have the dreamy soulmate chemistry with any of his Gifted Psychopaths-in-Training because they wouldn't have had these compatibility issues. Ain't that always the way? The person you crave is never the person who suits you.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:03 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, but hasn't this been emphasized enough by now?

At the start of the narrative, Will was in disgrace because he "couldn't pull the trigger". After that he's in disgrace because he's a weirdo who enjoys killing. Everyone just tells him that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

I think at a certain point he's got the right to go, "dude, I don't like it as much as all THAT."
posted by tel3path at 12:08 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, Will may not be Hannibal-level insane, but the whole reason Hannibal pursued him in the first place is the fact that he has the capacity to enjoy killing people.

The problem is he (so far) lacks the amorality that would allow him to fully embrace that? I would say that Will's empathy should be kind of a bulwark against going whole-hog into Murder Enjoyment since a really empathetic person would anticipate the pain and suffering of their victims, the effects on their grieving families, etc.

But have we ever seen Will act even slightly empathetic to anyone who's NOT a psychopathic serial killer? His Gift seems to be super-selective or limited just to the sick twisted fucks of the world.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:10 PM on July 19, 2015


Does Winston count?
posted by sparkletone at 12:15 PM on July 19, 2015


I think at a certain point he's got the right to go, "dude, I don't like it as much as all THAT."

haha, fair enough
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:16 PM on July 19, 2015


1. Jack, most notably in Coquilles
2. Alana, in this recent episode
3. Chiyoh's prisoner, who is not proven to actually have been guilty (does Chiyoh count as not a psychopathic serial killer?)
4. Margot (only one kill so far, and to all appearances not psychopathic)
5. Mrs Budish
6. Mrs Madchen
7. Miriam Lass (only one, unsuccessful attempted kill)
8. Chilton, in allowing him the use of his shower (Chilton is amoral but not psychopathic, and has yet to kill anyone himself directly)
posted by tel3path at 12:19 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


He's become more and more shut down recently because - Jack was the case that really brought it front and centre - his ability to empathize with Jack made him vulnerable to Jack and led him to stay in the field when his deteriorating health suggested he should have withdrawn
posted by tel3path at 12:21 PM on July 19, 2015


Although, having now committed two murders in quick succession, Alana may meet some definitions of the term "serial killer" albeit not a psychopathic one
posted by tel3path at 12:22 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don' t mean treating people nicely and kindly or feeling for people (and dogs); I mean empathy like Will does at crime scenes and with Hannibal, where he can put himself into Person A's complete emotional situation and perspective and feel exactly what they feel and see what they see and their design becomes his design.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:22 PM on July 19, 2015


He does say in the pilot that he avoids social situations and eye contact because he doesn't actually enjoy empathising with other people, it's too overwhelming - but he does it for his job because he feels like he has to. (Now, whether that part of his characterization has been borne out over the show is up for debate, I'd say...)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:26 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ah right. Well he needs the person to be absent in order to achieve that - the presence of other humans turns the signal-to-noise ratio to unfavourable levels. He even explained that in his first conversation with Hannibal, in episode 1. And notice that his immediate reaction to Hannibal is to be repelled by him. He did read Hannibal right the moment he met him - he just didn't know it!

When the person is present, he needs time to get to know them, just as everyone else does. It seems that he's particularly prone to seeing people as they want to be seen, which is something we all do for our friends out of goodwill, and also because they're continually putting out signals as to how they want to be perceived.
posted by tel3path at 12:28 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, that's what I meant by selective. He has to turn that shit off (or shield himself from it) except for certain people in professional situations, which in effect puts him in the position of having that intense affinity ONLY with monstrous killers. If you're empathizing intensely only with murderers and avoid it with other sorts of people or everyday situations, a lot of the garden variety golden-rule-type empathy that keeps us from harming others would be sort of disabled or dulled.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:37 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


I mean having people tell him "you enjoy killing" all the time... he has a lot of dog figurines on his shelves. Nobody buys dog figurines for themselves. You get one dog figurine, you have a lot of dogs, people are like "ah you collect dog figurines" and before you know it, you do collect dog figurines. It's the gift that just keeps on giving. People thrusting crudely wrapped parcels at you on what should be a happy occasion like your birthday or a holiday, oh here Will have this I know you like them, and you smile weakly and unwrap yet another dog figurine and, you know, it's the thought that counts and you don't hate it, but still.

We can all recognize that phenomenon, right? Will Graham has been having that happening for two and a half actual seasons by now, but with murder instead of dog figurines. And if he now wishes to say "enough with the dog figurines I want a moratorium on dog figurines, that's it, we can accept no further engagements" I would be inclined to take him at his word, and to apply the same principle to murder.
posted by tel3path at 12:41 PM on July 19, 2015 [7 favorites]


I just had a moment of being genuinely unable to tell whether I was in the Hannibal thread or the emotional labor thread. Mostly because I was distracted, but also, poor Will's empathing is sort of Emotional Labor to the extreme.
posted by Stacey at 1:00 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, why isn't Will nicer and more understanding in this episode? Well, uh, MAYBE because he's being relentlessly tortured and brutalized on an ongoing basis and, like, torture actually has an effect on him or something? IDK.

Mr. Wussy Pants, can't handle a little stress.

I've only glanced at the emotional labour thread but I remember reading a surprisingly well-written and hardhitting fanfic a long time ago where Will goes into a fugue state and becomes a street prostitute whose pimp's name is Mack. It is not played for laughs.
posted by tel3path at 1:19 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hannibal's ratings held steady. Aquarius' were actually worse than Fancy Cannibal's.
posted by sparkletone at 2:29 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Alana also just like flat out names one of the show's ongoing themes, the lack of incentive people in power have to do "the right thing" and for keeping up the status quo
posted by The Whelk at 2:35 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Or else Mason killed it again for shits and giggles, now that a better host had appeared on the scene and now that there was a possibility of it being a Mason+Margot baby rather than a Will+Margot baby.

wait, are we meant to think that this was the grahambaby? when margot was like a month pregnant MAX when mason wombnapped her? and that he somehow magically waved money at science and grew the embryo inside a pig?

or are we meant to think that it was a vergercest baby that he made with his own sperms and the eggs he presumably stole from margot?

because tbh i assumed he bought a stillbirth from some random lady and stuck it inside a pig to make margot crazy
posted by poffin boffin at 2:49 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Although, having now committed two murders in quick succession, Alana may meet some definitions of the term "serial killer" albeit not a psychopathic one

Two ? Who did she murder besides Mason ? She shot the guard with a tranquilizer dart.
posted by Pendragon at 3:33 PM on July 19, 2015


I think this is the pistol she used.
posted by Pendragon at 3:36 PM on July 19, 2015


My roommates girlfriend who has never seen the show popped in during the scene when Alana frees Hannibal and stuck around until the eel.

She was horrified. I am delighted.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


This might be a weird place to stick someone's lighthearted crossover tweet but it made me laugh and I'm sure at least two of you will appreciate it:
"Y'know sir, they're saying at the precinct that someone partially ate the victim. Not you sir, no, I'm not saying that"
-- Columbo on Hannibal

posted by komara at 6:58 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ahhh, just one more ting, one more ting - did you know... dat your name literally rhymes with 'cannibal'?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:16 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


(And to respond to someone's comment about who Cordell is . . .)

I believe he was discovered while mowing the front lawn with green ear muffs on.
posted by SpacemanStix at 7:52 PM on July 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


Fuller interview on the ending:
Will's motivation has always been hard to read. Should we believe him when he says he wants Hannibal out of his life?
Fuller: We come back to that moment in the final episode of the season and break it down between those two characters, and they address it themselves. Will is telling Hannibal, "I don't need you anymore, I don't want you anymore, I release you." And Hannibal is saying, "No you don't. You're telling yourself that. You don't want to know or think about where I am? I am going to give you the knowledge of exactly where I am and let that eat away at you for as long as it takes you to come back into my orbit, and I am patient enough to wait."

Does Hannibal surrender to Jack out of spite towards Will or is he once again heartbroken? Does he no longer feel like playing this game without Will as a willing participant?
Fuller: Will realizes that he can't win and Hannibal can't win. So, the only option for him at that moment is to stop playing. That, for Hannibal, is a huge rejection. It's an even stranger rejection than the betrayal of Season 2 because Will has gone into Hannibal's past and understands him better than ever. Will has realized that this is not an evil man, this is just a monster doing what he has always been designed to do essentially. So, he can't give him any more energy. For Will, a magic door presented itself that he could step through and leave Hannibal and all of this behind him. But what Hannibal knows is going to come around again on the cannibal carousel is that Will can't live without him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:26 PM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


the cannibal carousel

Foreshadowing? ;)
posted by crossoverman at 10:06 PM on July 19, 2015 [3 favorites]


OMG, I'm so glad that I have the time to re-read Red Dragon this week.
posted by blessedlyndie at 4:25 AM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


You know, it's not something that bothers me a lot, but I will say - if Bryan was going to insist that he was never never going to explicitly depict or discuss rape on the show, he probably should have had Alana and Margot just cut Mason's balls off and get the sperm from there, which is totally medically possible. I don't think there's any honest argument that what they did to him wasn't sexual assault.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:45 AM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes, well, but Mason was under anesthesia at the time, I believe, so he didn't even know what had happened and, yeah, maybe it could be called sexual assault but I give no shits about Mason after what he did to Margot. Cut his balls off or milk him from his prostate gland. I dunna care.
posted by blessedlyndie at 6:02 AM on July 20, 2015


He said we'd never see a *woman* raped on this show, I think Margot's manipulation of Will was also sexual assault.
posted by tel3path at 6:02 AM on July 20, 2015


Anyway, saw the McQueen exhibition this morning and I must warn you: nothing there is vegetarian.

In tapas bar about to lunch in ladylike fashion. I have an inexplicable craving for oysters.
posted by tel3path at 6:04 AM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm in envy of your geography, tel3path.
posted by blessedlyndie at 6:09 AM on July 20, 2015


Oh, London has more geography per square mile than lots of places.

It really is stunning how direct the McQueen influence is on the production design and overall aesthetic. Right down to the bird skulls and pheasant feathers.
posted by tel3path at 6:17 AM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


And also this season in particular it's like Anthony Gormley broke into Will's house and filled up the ground floor with nothing but dog figurines and he comes in and there they all are, with their little eyes, staring at him, and everyone is like IT'S YOUR FAULT FOR NOT SAYING NO TO THE FIRST DOG FIGURINE.
posted by tel3path at 6:20 AM on July 20, 2015


But what Hannibal knows is going to come around again on the cannibal carousel is that Will can't live without him.

BECAUSE THEY ARE MURDER BOYFRANDS
posted by poffin boffin at 7:21 AM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh? London? I've stopped envying your geography. I mean, London is super nice and all but I fucking hate that place. I thought you were in Spain or Mexico or something.
posted by blessedlyndie at 7:31 AM on July 20, 2015


Is it Savage Beauty? I saw it when it was in NYC and it was THE MOST DOPE THING
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:03 AM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


seems like time did reverse for everyone but poor Hanni.

Jack was once again, helpless to stop Hannibal messing with Will's head and was completely immoblilized when it came to arresting the Ripper. sucks to be him.

alana sent a killer to katch a killer before he could kill the one she loved. since the killer in question was Hannibal, it actually did work, so. BUT OMG DARK!ALANA MORAL EVENT HORIZON SIRENS KLAXONS SHE'S JUST LIKE HAMIBAL NOW oh no wait she made sure to ask him "I'll never understand you will I?" And he's like "nope" so that clears it up because she's not DARK like Will is, she's not like ACTUALLY EVIL IN THE DEPTHS OF HER SOUL like what he is and it's totally OK to do whatever in the Hanniverse, the real sin is understanding it so Alana's totally in the clear forever.

I just. cannot get over those who are complaining that Will was a jerk to Alana. Oh, good heavens, he was immobilized while being held prisoner and tortured and then, as he sat there alone musing on how terrible everyone is and how entirely fucked he is, as if by magic, Alana appears, and it turns out that she is the one who masterminded the situation in which he now finds himself.

now, a decent man with a good sense of priorities, sitting there immobilized in a wheelchair with his skull half sawn off and facing the imminent danger of losing face, would undoubtedly do his utmost to make sure Alana Bloom felt okay about it all. Because that is the truly urgent problem here. instead, he comes out with "what did you think would happen?" RUDE. couldn't he have at least TRIED to be more flattering? The way women are treated on this show is appalling.

now Hamibal, there's s man who knows how to be gracious under torture. "i always keep my promises," he reassures her, what a gent.
posted by tel3path at 12:00 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh and one interesting thing. when Alana confronts Hannibal in the pigpen, she is wearing a white coat with a wide red hem, but large BLUE figures on it. This is the first time we've seen her in blue all season.

What might be her illusion? Maybe, when she's asking whether she could ever have understood Hannibal - she's seeking reassurance that just because she has become a killer, it doesn't mean she is dark, or like him, because she doesn't understand him. That the true sin is knowledge, that in order to understand evil you must be evil. Note that Bedelia's defense strategy is that she didn't know what she was doing - which was also Will's defense strategy and Abigail's too, not to mention Alana's. ignorance really does seem to be the ONLY allowable defense in the Hanniverse and the ONLY thing that counts for innocence.

tl;dr Will is guilty of thoughtcrime, but at least Alana will never fall that far.
posted by tel3path at 12:05 PM on July 20, 2015


what bugs me here is that Alana jsn't (overall, even if I read that conversation in the pigpen correctly) trying to excuse herself; rather she's grasping the nettle of personal responsibility without complaint or self-pity.

And yet some of her fans are taking it as an insult to her that she and Will are simply, finally, having a direct conversation about what is really happening. Alana is finally capable of this. She's looking her worst fear right in the eye and she isn't flinching. The ONLY thing she wants is to make it right.

Alana can handle the truth. Recognizing this isn't insulting her, it's honouring her. Being flattered and spoiled, like some of her fans seem to want for her - I guess in their defense they must be very young - is the LAST thing she needs right now. and to her credit, the last thing she seems to want.

oh, and despite what is said, Alana's understanding of Hannibal seems to be absolutely spot on. She knew exactly what to ask of him and what the result would be. I could never have let him go with the kind of unflinching confidence that she displayed.
posted by tel3path at 12:13 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


i keep singing BLOODY KISSING MURDER HUSBAAAANDS to the tune of the way we were
posted by poffin boffin at 12:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


delirious blood soaked meeeeeemories...of the way we were
posted by The Whelk at 12:45 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Can it be that it was all so simple then?
Or have you replaced my memories with weird lights and drugged hypnotherapy?



Okay, that doesn't scan well. I'm gonna go work on this for a while.
posted by Stacey at 12:49 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


A stable version of me? Is she a murderer like me?
Would she caress your face as she gutted you?
Does she speak in metaphors? Hey, does she know you're divorced?
I'm sure she'll make a really excellent murderhusband substitute
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:23 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]


oh god, he is literally there to remind him of the mess he left when he went away
posted by The Whelk at 1:32 PM on July 20, 2015 [9 favorites]


This is really a way too easy question for the green.

Breaking Up Is Hard To Do

Dear mefi, I broke up with my boyfriend after a lengthy abusive relationship. I'll leave out the special snowflake details; suffice to say it finally became apparent that we had irreconcilable differences despite some fundamental compatibilities that neither of us have ever been able to find in anyone else. The main irreconcilable difference being that he's an abusive bastard.

So we had the breakup talk, it was a clean break or so I thought, he left, I just took some time for myself, to reflect and recover on my own. Only not, because this morning when a friend came over to check on me, my ex popped up from under the porch. Where he had been hiding all night. I shit you not.

I just. WTF.

posted by wilgram at 9:07 pm

=============

What exactly is the question? Guy sounds whackadoodle and I can't understand why you haven't called the cops.

posted by stable_normal_edible at 9:09 pm

OMG fucking call the cops. What happens if he does this to the next person he dates? Do you want to be responsible for letting a guy like that get away with shit like this? If you can't think of yourself, think of your duty to society. Imagine reading in the paper that he's killed someone, and knowing that you could have prevented it if you'd spoken up sooner.

posted by empathyfree at 9:10 pm

nthing call the cops. I suspect the reason you haven't done so until now is because on some level you enjoy the drama.

posted by Carthaginian at 9:11 pm
posted by tel3path at 1:48 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]


Have you specifically asked him not to hide under your the porch yet? I might consider trying that before bring the cops in. Have you read The Gift of Fear yet?

posted by no_need_to_escalate at 9:15pm
posted by sparklemotion at 1:52 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]


if this gets every character I may just throw it on Ao3 as a group short thing...
posted by The Whelk at 1:58 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]




no come on the jaeger name is Dire Ravenstag
posted by poffin boffin at 2:47 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]


Have you specifically asked him not to hide under your the porch yet? I might consider trying that before bring the cops in.

Since he's already not accepting that you're over or respecting your space and wishes, engaging with him again in any way at all would just give him what he wants: your time and attention. I think your best bet is to ignore him until he goes away, unless he doesn't leave within several hours or attempts to bother you, in which case do call the cops or leave yourself (if you feel safe doing so) and stay with a friend .

Also remove him from your phone contacts and ignore or block calls/texts, killfile his emails, etc. If you share friends, let them know not to invite you both to the same events or convey messages to you from him.

posted by HitTheRoadJacques at 9:37pm
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:13 PM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


That guy sounds like a psycho and should be locked up. Meanwhile, you should move to another state - lest you be tempted to visit him. Never visit him.

posted by Frankie D. at 10:00pm
posted by crossoverman at 7:29 PM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


Hey hive mind, I left some food on the kitchen floor about 8 months ago, but I did my best to avoid contamination. In the mean time it's probably been licked by several dogs, but I believe the salt air has put a good cure on it.

What do you guys think? Would a quick trip to the griddle be enough to sterilize? Or am I going to end up regretting it?

posted by HamSock at 03:06pm

(Not sure how that got in this thread... Meant to post that as a new askme. Mods please move.)

posted by HamSock at 03:16pm


On rewatch, I think you can read the "between iron and silver" line as noting the transition from betrayal (Judas and his 30 pieces of silver) to imprisonment (iron bars).
posted by 0bs01337 at 11:52 PM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


Maybe, when she's asking whether she could ever have understood Hannibal - she's seeking reassurance that just because she has become a killer, it doesn't mean she is dark, or like him, because she doesn't understand him.

But at that point she hasn't killed anybody.
posted by Pendragon at 2:24 AM on July 21, 2015


She's not seeking reassurance - she's coming to terms with the fact that he completely and utterly fooled her in his immaculate person suit and he chooses to be honest with her.
posted by h00py at 5:40 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


She then responds to that by trusting him not to go into a mad screaming killing frenzy because now that she knows he's a murderous psychopath she also knows that he's not an uncontrolled murderous psychopath, in fact quite the opposite. And she releases him to do what he does best, knowing that she and Margot are safe. I'll imagine she'll have a little weep about it afterwards. After all, it was a really, really immaculate person suit.
posted by h00py at 5:44 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


But then again, she's probably way, way, way past the weepy thing. Scratch that!
posted by h00py at 5:44 AM on July 21, 2015


It's me. I'm weeping.
posted by h00py at 5:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


And she releases him to do what he does best, knowing that she and Margot are safe.

She knows, because he reminded her "I always keep my promises" that she is not safe. He told her explicitly that he would kill her. She brought this up earlier in the season, too. She's letting him out knowing that she's risking at the very least her own life by doing so.

But at that point she hasn't killed anybody.

Right, I hadn't realized that was a tranquillizer dart.

After all, it was a really, really immaculate person suit.

Not so immaculate that all the other female characters didn't see through it. How immaculate the suit is depends on whether you're offered enough of the right kind of incentive. When Alana says "better buy a whole department" she's suggesting that Mason do with the Contorno and money, what Hannibal did with the BAU and social ties.

Which doesn't change the fact that the suits have been facepalm-worthy this season. I look back at last year's suits, and I feel pretty weepy myself.
posted by tel3path at 6:07 AM on July 21, 2015


She knows, because he reminded her "I always keep my promises" that she is not safe. He told her explicitly that he would kill her. She brought this up earlier in the season, too. She's letting him out knowing that she's risking at the very least her own life by doing so.

Definitely, but in that moment she and he are as close to being 'on the same side' as they'll probably ever be again, and I think she's therefore fairly sure he won't kill her right that second, because the man has his priorities after all. (read: Will.) Kind of like how in season two, he probably could have found Bedelia if he tried to (I mean, Jack is not smarter than Hannibal, and he found her), but he was too busy grooming Will.

Man, Hannibal really could get so much more done if he wasn't always thinking about Will. (Kind of like me and this show tbh)
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:53 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah I'm pretty sure Alana knows that there's a chance that Hannibal will kill her once he's done killing everybody else, and chooses to take that chance because at that moment they mostly all want the same thing. Mason Verger, bringing people together to get the job done!
posted by PussKillian at 7:33 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Man if Mason had just put the two of them under lock and key, he would have totally gotten away with everything. What a moron.

But I guess that's just another example of him being a failed version of Hannibal - he thinks he's manipulated or cowed Margot into doing what he wants, but he's wrong. She picked the evil psychopath who was nice to her. As almost anyone would.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:39 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I WAS wondering - and I'd really rather not think about this too long, but still - at what point in Mason's planned carnival of torture would Hannibal have stopped smirking? Like, ever?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:41 AM on July 21, 2015


Well, that's why she doesn't cut him loose directly - she gives him a knife which he then uses to cut himself free. Either she gives herself a head start, or allows him to think that she has and banks on the probability that he'll be too focussed on Will to distract himself killing her.
posted by tel3path at 7:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I really believe in that moment Hannibal would never have killed Alana. He would have killed her before because he wasn't ready to be seen outside of the suit. In this episode, he knows she knows and she knows he knows it. They're a knowledgeable murder family.
posted by h00py at 7:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, Gideon never stopped smirking that we know of. Not while he was alive.
posted by tel3path at 7:46 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, I think she's still on his list. But you make a good point - he might be just a little impressed with how she's developed.

Which, speaking of, man, if Hannibal could have seen Will telling her "You have to evolve, Alana. You have to spill blood. Either by your own hand or... someone else's" he probably would have, like, wept with joy
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:48 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


Of course he would have killed Alana. If she'd cut him loose herself, he wouldn't have hesitated to "keep his promise" right then and there. She just made it not worth the opportunity cost for him to distract himself with side-missions.
posted by tel3path at 7:48 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


Well, Gideon never stopped smirking that we know of. Not while he was alive.

Ah yes, good point. (but there were no... pajama parties involved there... ughughugh)
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:49 AM on July 21, 2015


Typical of Mason to reduce the case to a male penetrative control issue.
posted by tel3path at 7:50 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well, I mean he would have killed her if she'd got in his way. But that was never her intention, certainly not at this point of the proceedings.
posted by h00py at 7:53 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I completely missed the implications of pajama parties. And I wish I still did. [full body shudder]
posted by PussKillian at 8:02 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Of course she didn't intend for him to kill her, but by giving him the means of escape she was definitely risking her life. He may have been tacitly agreeing to a head start or a rain check kind of thing because, regardless of what he already promised, Alana is doing him a solid here and he has other priorities right now besides being unsportsmanlike for the sake of it.

Nevertheless, counting on Hannibal to play "fair" is betting your life, always, even when he hasn't explicitly told you he'd kill you.
posted by tel3path at 8:04 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Fair point.
posted by h00py at 8:09 AM on July 21, 2015


Alana's risked her own life directly on two occasions since Mizumono. Until then, she'd been counting on the mutual, unspoken agreement to ignore the worst in each other etc. Since she chose to be brave instead of blind, however, she lost whatever immunity she had previously enjoyed. Alana is in danger as long as Hannibal is alive. In fact, she's in danger even while he's in captivity; I wonder if she fully understands that at this point.
posted by tel3path at 8:19 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I completely missed the implications of pajama parties. And I wish I still did. [full body shudder]

Yeah, I haven't seen a whole lot of chatter about this, maybe because not everyone caught it or maybe because nobody wants to think about it. But yeah Mason's plan definitely involved raping Hannibal.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:26 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mason's not physically capable so I assumed he meant it would be Cordell but who even knows.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wasn't Hannibal the one to get Mason's sperm? So I assume he did have some interaction with Alana after he got out and before the women dealt with Mason. It's part of the reason the sperm stuff doesn't ring entirely true to me. Getting out, dealing with Cordell, slapping a new face on Mason, grabbing Will, all good. But also meeting up with Margot/Alana, discovering their plight and stimulating Mason is a step beyond believeability for me. Not that that makes it less crazy go nuts and enjoyable mind you.
posted by yellowbinder at 10:52 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think that the stillbirth of the baby, and Marlana's decision to go through with killing Mason afterwards, maybe marks a change in the nature of the Hanniverse.

It was originally described as "a world without mothers". Abigail's mother had a nonspeaking part. Abigail seems to have been fond of her mother, but would never have turned to her for protection. Likewise, Abigail clearly never considered going to Alana and spilling the beans about what happened in the house with Nicholas Boyle; it was clear that Alana could only protect Abigail on condition she never confessed. Both Abigail and Will appeal to Alana for help in roundabout ways in S1 (digging up Nicholas Boyle; asking for help looking for injured animals whose cries turn out to be hallucinatory) and she doesn't pick up what they're putting down. Will was originally cast to play the role of the mother in the Dinner of Shrooms, and from that occasion onward the role gets distributed between Will and Alana; Will continues to conform to that role by confronting Hannibal about Nicholas Boyle, but backing down when Hannibal convinces him that conspiracy is the best way to protect Abigail.

In S2, Alana is the one taking on the motherly role towards Will by displaying charity towards him, insisting on his need for medical care for his encephalitis, and caring for his dogs. However, it soon becomes evident that her support is provided on condition that it never threatens her relationship with Hannibal the Father. Alana eventually ends up shattered on the doorstep in the same position as Abigail's mother.

Now, both Margot and Alana together are so appalled at what Mason has done to Margot's baby that it gives them the impetus to protect, if not that child, then future children by killing him. There's no doubt that Margot's grief is genuine and that she sees this child as her child; otherwise why insist that Alana cut it out even though it is demonstrably dead? It is really important that it's that event, not something else, that impels both of them to bloody their hands. It may even be, as showbiz_liz points out, that there'll be no inheritance if Mason's dead; it's possible that the putative future child is more important than the inheritance now.

So the Hanniverse has gone from being a world without mothers to being a world with mothers. That's like a small revolution.
posted by tel3path at 10:54 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, it's possible that Alana wasn't in the room when Hannibal, um, interacted with Mason but they make it sound like she was. It does sound like she didn't vacate the premises.

So I guess maybe killing Alana is, like, on his medium-term to-do list, rather than his top priority.

He may also be prioritizing helping Margot over killing Alana; despite setting up Margot's situation or maybe because of that, he seems to be amenable to rectifying it.
posted by tel3path at 10:58 AM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's canon that Hannibal helps Margot secure her inheritance; in the book he does this by taking the blame for Mason's death. As set up here it requires delaying his plans for Alana until she plays her role creating the DNA test passing heir.
posted by Bringer Tom at 11:17 AM on July 21, 2015


I would really, really like to see Hannibal's to-do list.
posted by Stacey at 11:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Death, death, death, death, lunch, death, death...

And unlike most dictators he multitasks over lunch.
posted by tel3path at 11:28 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm thrilled that the Red Dragon plot is going to be incorporated into all of this. I didn't even know that until a couple of weeks ago. I've started re-watching Manhunter again (one of my all-time favorites), and it's bringing back a lot of "oh, cool" connections. I was wondering how they were going to get Hannibal behind bars in a way that didn't demean his intelligence and seeming omnipotence, and I actually found the way they did it pretty satisfying with the knife-twist in the back for Will Graham. It's still a little bit of a hard sell that Hannibal would give himself up, but that was perhaps the only plot device that would convince me that he might do it. And they had to play the relationship between the two of them just right for that to be a compelling motivation. I think they pulled it off.
posted by SpacemanStix at 11:34 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yes, exactly - there were so many elements that had to be in play for them to sell that, and they managed to juggle them all. Over all three seasons, they showed his gradually increasing his attachment to Will and the resulting boredom with the rest of his life, culminating in his idgaf murder adventures in Italy; they showed over and over how his entire MO is manipulating and persuading people rather than forcing them to do things; they showed just how patient he is and how long his long games can be, like with Miriam Lass and the Chilton frame-up; and they also demonstrated the truly incredible heights to which his pettiness can soar when he's pissed off (the primary example being the Abigail neck-slicing, and also Gideon being repaid for his imitation by being eaten alive, but really almost every one of his victims is an example of this).

All those elements combine to make "Hannibal Lecter turns himself in to the FBI because he's in love with Will Graham" a completely plausible plot development, which when you step back and think about it is a truly incredible accomplishment.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [8 favorites]


As graphic as this show is, I was genuinely moved by the images of Hannibal carrying Will out of the house when he rescued him, and also the clear dismay on his face when Will said he never wanted to see him again. Hannibal didn't flinch when he thought he was going to be tortured and eaten. Will exiling him was more than he could handle. I'm actually pleasantly surprised the show didn't botch all of this, as it was needing to thread a needle perfectly with the plot and acting.
posted by SpacemanStix at 12:00 PM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]


Oh, and there's one thing I forgot - the 'being seen' thing. At the beginning of this story, no one alive knows what Hannibal is. (Even Bedelia, his murder intern du jour before Will, has only had a tiny glimpse at this point.) And he thought he liked it that way.

But after making besties with 'an FBI profiler who really gets me' - someone who, as Bedelia pointed out, was able to climb over his walls - I think he realized how much he'd been craving that recognition from others.

This is why he wants Will, yes. But I think it's also part of the reason he was happy to blow his cover so spectacularly at the end of season 2, after carefully protecting himself for decades. Why he took Bedelia along with him to Europe, even though he had never done anything like that before.

Isn't it so much funner to be a notorious serial killer when people actually know about it and truly understand you and are afraid of/in awe of you?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:09 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


The entire season, so far, has been Will reconstructing the crime in reverse. Against Abigail, then against Hannibal, and against himself.

It shouldn't really be surprising to anyone that he sought to understand Hannibal before confronting him; that's why he's a successful profiler. He'd be an idiot to do otherwise, really. And the process of understanding him, at every moment, risked softening him so much that he couldn't do what needed to be done.

I'm not sure why he expected to succeed in knifing Hannibal, but I also can't think of a better idea, so hey.
posted by tel3path at 12:12 PM on July 21, 2015


Yeah but it kinda also ruins the fun when someone understands you completely, and is sick of you.

That's tough for anyone to hear.

WHEN will Hannibal ever LEARN that if you eat someone's brains, they won't like you any more.
posted by tel3path at 12:14 PM on July 21, 2015


Are his feelings for Will consistent with the fact that he was taking a saw to Will's head right before he was captured? Or were these feelings worked out for Hannibal during their mutual experience with Verger, such that he no longer wanted to kill Will?
posted by SpacemanStix at 12:18 PM on July 21, 2015


Death, death, death, death, lunch, death, death

how many of those deaths count as grocery shopping though
posted by poffin boffin at 12:21 PM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yeah but it kinda also ruins the fun when someone understands you completely, and is sick of you.

That's tough for anyone to hear.


Oh dude. Silence of the Lambs, chapter 47:

Maybe he was always lying to her, just as he lied to Senator Martin. Maybe he didn't know or understand anything about Buffalo Bill.

He sees very clearly--- he damn sure sees through me. It's hard to accept that someone can understand you without wishing you well. At Starling's age it hadn't happened to her much.

posted by showbiz_liz at 12:31 PM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


Are his feelings for Will consistent with the fact that he was taking a saw to Will's head right before he was captured?

Hannibal was feeling betrayed again (remember, Will had just tried to gut him, and yeah, turnabout is fair play and all but it's not like Hannibal really believes in fair play) so I think that the saw to the head thing was him lashing out in anger/spite.

I also think that during his upside-down time, he came to realize that if he had gone through with the brain-eating, he would have regretted it. In my head canon, Hannibal is a little grateful to Mason for that, at least.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:41 PM on July 21, 2015


Which is why I love Hannibal's techy little pouty attitude during the skull saw scene Just SEE what you MADE ME DO you BEAUTIFUL JERK
posted by The Whelk at 12:54 PM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


Hannibal was probably most annoyed that with Jack in town he didn't have time to fully marinate the main dish and goodness knows you can't carve appropriate garnishes when you're hiding under the table. Like, he was going to eat the brains and all but he wasn't even going to be able to enjoy it.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:06 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think it's important to remember that Hannibal decided that he had to kill and eat Will before he saw him again. When it was this abstract thing, it was an easy decision; when Will was right there, it was harder, but then he made it easier again by pulling out the knife, and anyway they'd barely had any time to reconnect. But then he had to see Will in immediate mortal danger that was (for once) NOT caused by him for an extended period of time, and that must have been when he changed his mind - or, really, when he came to his senses.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:09 PM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah, it's possible that Alana wasn't in the room when Hannibal, um, interacted with Mason but they make it sound like she was.

It's also possible that she told Mason that Hannibal did it for extra taunting value. Considering how obsessed Mason was with having power over Hannibal, it'd be a pretty good twist of the knife. Hannibal may have just de-faced Cordell, picked up Will, and left Alana and Margot to do the rest.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:04 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, you know how it is with family - you can eat their brains all you want, but nobody else is allowed! Of course Mason wanting to mess with Will's head would have brought out Hannibal's protective instincts.
posted by tel3path at 2:09 PM on July 21, 2015


I was wondering how they were going to get Hannibal behind bars in a way that didn't demean his intelligence and seeming omnipotence, and I actually found the way they did it pretty satisfying with the knife-twist in the back for Will Graham. It's still a little bit of a hard sell that Hannibal would give himself up, but that was perhaps the only plot device that would convince me that he might do it. And they had to play the relationship between the two of them just right for that to be a compelling motivation. I think they pulled it off.

Yeah, I couldn't quite figure out how they'd do it either, although I had assumed it would be some sort of capture after he had dispensed with Mason and Cordell and perhaps was injured in the process. So the ending was a surprise but one of those surprises that makes you say, "OF COURSE, that makes perfect sense; that's exactly what he would inevitably do, isn't it?" and keeps Hannibal in his spot as the guy who outthinks and one-ups everybody (except Bedelia). So clever and so useful in continuing the character development. Good job, Fuller!
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:14 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


And about the unlikelihood of Hannibal giving himself up, I think the point showbiz liz mentioned upthread is important:
Now that I can go on Tumblr again, someone made the very good point that of course Hannibal wouldn't run away again - he already tried that and it wasn't satisfying.
So it's not only the desire to be around Will and fuck up his head some more, but Hannibal was already sort of bored and restless at the start of Season 1, which probably has to be a fundamental problem for someone like him. It's part of why he got interested in Will and Abigail and the FBI stuff. And Florence was fine since he got to be someone else while "hiding" from Will, but Hide and Seek is no fun at all if nobody is seeking you.

So what would he do for kicks now -- roam the world looking for more novel experiences like Mason's good funny dinner party? Or now that he's seen how entertaining "captivity" can be, why not surrender himself into a situation that promises to have all sorts of new game-playing opportunities? Technically, all Will has to do to win this game is not show up, ever, but what are the chances of that happening?
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:30 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]




Oh god I need one of those tote bags.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:04 PM on July 21, 2015


I was hoping for an "Eat The Rude" apron instead.
posted by sapere aude at 3:23 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


for carrying my packed lunch yes
posted by tel3path at 3:23 PM on July 21, 2015


Found this on the Flop House podcast Facebook group, another place prone to wonderful and hilarious Hannibal discussions. I have no idea who the original source is, but it's kind of genius:

...

TALK LIKE HANNIBAL

I recently got my boyfriend into the show. We found a standard formula of how to talk like Hannibal.
  1. Make a grandiose statement about something you are doing or something that is brought up in conversation.
  2. "Tell me, Will..."
  3. Dramatic question about how this random thing relates to Will.
For instance, last weekend we went to a potluck and couldn't stop cracking each other up.

"A potluck is an event in which individuals bring a cherished part of themselves to a communal table. Tell me, Will...what will you bring to the table?"

"A 3-bean salad is a union of parts that are seemingly the same, yet ultimately so different. Tell me, Will...are we the same? Or are we ultimately different?"
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:31 PM on July 21, 2015 [31 favorites]


I was hoping for an "Eat The Rude" apron instead.

I bet they'd make you one.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:10 PM on July 21, 2015


I WAS wondering - and I'd really rather not think about this too long, but still - at what point in Mason's planned carnival of torture would Hannibal have stopped smirking? Like, ever?

I wondered this too. He doesn't flinch at all when Mason stabs him in the meat hanger, but he does limp after that fight with Jack, which is a different sort of involuntary pain response. I guess you could argue that the latter behavior is more plainly adaptive than the former, since it works to prevent you from aggravating an existing injury, but I guess it doesn't really matter in the end: I don't think Hannibal's smirk is him being unflappable until the bitter end, it's him knowing that he's going to come out on top in this scenario, even though it's not a thing he could know. Sometimes it almost reads like Hannibal has a subconscious inkling of his own status as a character in this narrative, which I suppose is part of the supernatural air he has around him.

The question I have, then, is how Hannibal would behave if he were bested and aware of it. It feels like an incoherent question, and I think it's because it's just not possible in the confines of this world.
posted by invitapriore at 7:33 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


anyway though did anyone else have a pang of "Will, STOP, you're BREAKING THE POOR MAN'S HEART" during the breakup speech after seeing Hanni's wounded puppy dog face
posted by invitapriore at 7:33 PM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh definitely. It was genuinely sad, especially because here's this guy who due to wiring, genetics, environment , and/or what have you, doesn't really experience human attachment or bonding at all, who has little if any capacity for it, and the one time he develops a profound attachment, look what happens.

It's interesting that Will's rejection either causes Hannibal way more discomfort than being physically branded did, or he can't control/suppress visibly reacting to this type of pain the way he can choose not to react to being stabbed.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:47 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


anyway though did anyone else have a pang of "Will, STOP, you're BREAKING THE POOR MAN'S HEART" during the breakup speech after seeing Hanni's wounded puppy dog face

To Hannibals credit, though, he let Will make his decision like a grown up without having the need to talk it out incessantly with him to get closure. He would have done pretty well with the AskMe crowd here. However, Hannibal's final move was a bit needy, and I'm sure we'd all encourage Will to cut off all contact with Hannibal, including phone calls, texts, emails, and prison visits. Next weeks previews, though, suggest that Will would be the one marking "best answer" on all the advice saying that it could probably work somehow.

"Hey, this previous question was me, and I have a follow up question regarding setting appropriate boundaries with someone in prison. We've only talked a few times since incarceration. . ."
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:29 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


bested and aware of it... Yeah, no matter what you do he's gonna deny it.

Even from Will's burn, he quickly bounced back into his usual "never give up" mode.
posted by tel3path at 10:30 PM on July 21, 2015


I read that as "his usual 'never gonna give you up' mode" and for a brief second had a glorious vision of the show's last-ever scene being Mads singing and dancing to you know what.
posted by invitapriore at 10:40 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


A clean break is impossible to do - or maybe it's just me?

...the previous question was me. Well, I did end up having to see my ex again because I was a material witness in his rather lengthy trial; I had my work cut out distancing myself from all that and from the unwanted attention that inevitably came with it, but I finally got the clean break I was looking for.

I rebuilt my life and for the past two years I've been at peace with the family I always wanted. Sometimes I feel like a brokedown ugly stray dog who's no good for anything, not even fetching the newspaper, but who is loved for who he is, not for what he contributes. I keep reminding myself that that's what counts.

However, my old friend - the one who came to check on me in the last question - came to visit me again yesterday. It seems like any time I manage to carve out a little stability for myself, that particular friend comes along to obliterate it; but that's probably a question all its own. The point being, my friend is pretty good at the emotional blackmail, and while I know it's wrong to disrupt my family's lives to do what he's asking me to do, it's also wrong to just blow it off, knowing that I'm one of the few people with the expertise to help.

Here's the deal: my friend showed me pictures of three separate family murders that have taken place on the last three full moons. Ever the emotional manipulator, he made sure to show me pictures of the families alive first, then crime scene photos as graphic and brutal as anything you can probably imagine. Just to make the point: if it was your family, wouldn't you want the only person who could help, to make whatever temporary sacrifice he had to to keep them safe? It's three weeks until the next full moon. My friend thinks that if I join the investigation, we will be able to head off this killer before the next family bites it. If I do it right, I could be home in three weeks.

And this is where it gets complicated. The ex I told you about - the compatibilities we had, that we shared with no one else - well, when they used to get the two of us in a room together we were riffing off each others' ideas like you wouldn't believe. I can't shake the idea that the sooner I go visit my ex, the sooner I crack this case and really finally, at last, truly put all this drama behind me. I did a lot of self-reflection before the breakup I asked the previous question about and - unlike most people - I know for certain there's no chance of my ex getting inside my head ever again. I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm more nervous about seeing my ex again than you can probably imagine. But he'll be in maximum security, behind glass that not even he is strong enough to break (trust us, we know from experience; they've really upped their game since he ate that nurse's tongue and there's virtually no chance he could pull something like that again). Furthermore, my old friend says he wouldn't put me out there if he didn't know he could cover me.

I just don't know, hive mind. Am I crazy? Do I take this risk? Three weeks, tops.

posted by wilgram at 10:07 am

============

I read as far as the part where you attended his trial. You obviously love the drama, otherwise why would you have done a thing like that after he hid under your porch overnight? You sound young, but let me tell you this: someone who is capable of hiding under your porch overnight is also probably capable of a bunch of other stuff you don't even want to know about.

I'm going to tell you another secret: happy marriages are boring. In fact, boredom is the litmus test that tells you whether anything is worthwhile, because the most profound truths about life are embodied in those mornings when you wake up next to your spouse and think "oh God, not you again, now every day for the next forty years I'm gonna have to sit here and look at your face." The guy who seems shiny or compelling to you? Drama on a stick. Delete, block, ignore.

posted by blocky mcblockhead at 10:09 am

Agreed that on some level you seem to like the drama. I'm going to go against everyone else's advice and say that if you feel drawn to this guy after all this time, it could be that your spouse just isn't able to meet your needs and this is a fundamental incompatibility you're only just discovering now. Have you considered the possibility that you could be polyamorous? Have a talk with your spouse about opening up your marriage. She can only say no, right?

As for your practical problem, the best way to get anybody on side is reciprocity and I bet your ex is no exception. For a quid pro quo, why not bring him a little gift such as a bottle of Montrachet or, if glass bottles are not permitted in maximum security, something soft like white truffles, or speaking of truffles those Charbonnel et Walker champagne truffles in the pink box are nice. I'd suggest liver paté, but in all the facilities I've... Visited... That probably wouldn't be permitted for that particular inmate level of security.

posted by Carthaginian at 10:20 am
posted by tel3path at 2:29 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm going to go against everyone else's advice and say that if you feel drawn to this guy after all this time, it could be that your spouse just isn't able to meet your needs and this is a fundamental incompatibility you're only just discovering now. Have you considered the possibility that you could be polyamorous? Have a talk with your spouse about opening up your marriage. She can only say no, right?

Oh boy, a multiple-enspousenating with Hannibal; wouldn't that be . . . challenging? If Fuller can't get any takers for the showin its current form*, maybe he could interest HBO in a blood-drenched reboot of Big Love.

*Interestingly, he commented in that TV Guide interview above that after they get a load of this season's finale and the fourth season it makes possible, he thinks some of the folks who already turned down Season 4 may reconsider.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:02 AM on July 22, 2015


Maybe Will would go for that, but Hannibal strikes me as a one-psycho psycho.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:09 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hey - aside from shooting Hobbes, had Hannibal actually witnessed Will committing an act of violence before that cheek-biting?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:15 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


Wow, I don't think so. Good catch! I guess he might have been present for some of the Randall Tier corpse carving, but that doesn't count.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:21 AM on July 22, 2015


Maybe Will would go for that, but Hannibal strikes me as a one-psycho psycho.

Spoiler: I don't think he's expecting Molly to respond favourably.
posted by tel3path at 6:36 AM on July 22, 2015


And you're right, I think that Hobbs was the only violence from Will that Hannibal ever directly witnessed.

So much of their relationship is really Hannibal's fantasy. He's as prone to exaggerating Will's violence as others are to underestimating Hannibal. But it really brings that fact home when you realize that most of the violence Hannibal saw Will actually committing was in Hannibal's fantasies!
posted by tel3path at 6:39 AM on July 22, 2015


So, way back in season one
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:10 AM on July 22, 2015


Those were the good old days of innocence.
posted by tel3path at 7:12 AM on July 22, 2015


Oh my god the pig has a blood pressure monitor clipped to its fucking HOOF
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:57 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh my god the pig has a blood pressure monitor clipped to its fucking HOOF

It's a trotter... delicious boiled with mustard. Or deep fried to make Irish crubeens... as Hannibal would no doubt explain with a disappointed look.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:13 AM on July 22, 2015


Things I would not have believed going in:

1. a Hanniverse without Clarice Starling is an okay Hanniverse.

2. A M/M slash pairing will become the main preoccupation of your life.
2a. And one half of the pairing will be Hannibal Lecter.
2b. If you're not in the mood for a serial killer tonight, there will be abundant fanfic of comparable quality to canon, and one writer will construct a multiverse scenario in which Hannibal is a nice man but they are still aware of the existence of alternate versions of themselves, and this entire idea will be TOTALLY CANON COMPLIANT IN AND OF ITSELF.
2c. But, in any case, the M/M slash pairing is canon.
2d. A TV series features a desirable male lead.
2e. and another desirable male lead.
2f. That's two desirable male leads.

3. Any new Hannibal-related media will be of any interest whatsoever, and you will forget that you were ever sick of Hannibal.
3a. in fact, it will be at least as enthralling as the original material that you read and watched when you were 20.
3b Yes, even without Clarice.

4. you will be clamoring for a Hannibal recipe book.

5. Your greatest aspiration will be to look just like Hannibal.

6. Someone will come along and rewrite that awful Hannibal book so that you can stand it and it all makes sense.

7. Will Graham was deliberately glossing over the extent of his relationship with Hannibal, playing it off like he'd only met him the day he caught him whereupon he immediately was rewarded with a knife in the guts; but actually it all unfolded over a much longer timeline during which Hannibal was totally his boyfrand. So instead of having to take on faith that Hannibal is like toxic radiation and mere exposure was enough to traumatize Graham which is why he's terrified to go see him, what actually is happening is he's going to see his ex who has a jealousy problem so now it makes sense to the average person.

8. Chilton will be hilarious and charming.

9. alan bloom will encourage provoking killers to murder and/or suicide; and will help Margot to kill Mason with the eel.
posted by tel3path at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]


10. Part of the patter to the kitty cats wouldn't be: "I can think of ONE fun thing/ If you like to dance and SING"/Hannibal gasp/ "Hanging around with Hans" "Hanging around with my friend WillGraham."

Thank you, Greg Nog. My cats thank you.
posted by angrycat at 9:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


Any of our number near Toronto? They're having a wrap sale pretty much now and for the next few days, cash only.
posted by tel3path at 9:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Aargh why don't I know anyone in Toronto well enough
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 AM on July 22, 2015


Huh. Well there's something I can do tomorrow.
posted by yellowbinder at 10:40 AM on July 22, 2015


I mean, I don't have any money, but who needs to eat when you can buy pig hoof monitors with your grocery funds!
posted by yellowbinder at 10:42 AM on July 22, 2015


I do still want Clarice, tho. Very much. Especially since Fuller has opened the door to a Clarice without Argentina and brainwashing. Stalwart, forthright, tough to the roots.
posted by PussKillian at 10:58 AM on July 22, 2015


Ugh I'm like two brain impulses away from hopping on a bus out to Mississauga right now but I should wait until tomorrow when I can really take my time and tons of pictures, and maybe hitch a ride with a fellow Fannibal with car. Agony!
posted by yellowbinder at 11:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


OMG yellowbinder!!!! Keep us informed!!!
posted by tel3path at 11:07 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I do still want Clarice, tho. Very much. Especially since Fuller has opened the door to a Clarice without Argentina and brainwashing. Stalwart, forthright, tough to the roots.

If they get a Clarice, they'll have to build her entire part and dialogue (except for the backstory) out of wholecloth at this point, which would probably be a good thing. But man, for ShowJack to send yet another trainee or otherwise vulnerable person into Hannibal's orbit after everything that's happened in ShowUniverse, he'd have to be an even more ethically problematic bastard than BookJack.

In fact, I'm not sure Jack is going to make it out of this season without looking like pretty bastardly. It was bad enough that he pulled Will into the field; it was not great to use Will as bait knowing what had befallen Miriam Lass (and ostensibly Abigail). But to drag him into it all again three years after that surrender scene is pretty cold, notwithstanding the tap-dance of rationalization he does to be OK with that. Yeah, I know, dead gory families, blah blah blah, whatever.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Turned some thoughts from earlier in this thread into a longass Tumblr post. Was it really in character for Hannibal to turn himself in?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:34 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I know Clarice's place in the story has been sort of...dissected, split up between a bunch of different characters. Her story in the tv show universe would be very different. Not having her at all though...it feels very strange. Possibly because my only experience with any of the universe came from Silence of the Lambs - I never read a book or saw the other movies until after I unexpectedly got hooked on the tv show. (Unexpectedly because I'm not a horror fan and would have said before now that I have a very low tolerance for gore and freaky shit. I don't think I can say that now.)
posted by PussKillian at 12:58 PM on July 22, 2015


That was a good writeup, showbiz_liz.

For the first time ever, Hannibal is known – not just by Will, but by the FBI, by Bedelia, by Mason, by everybody – and he honestly really enjoys it.

I wonder if it's important that he believes that Will knows him more deeply than anyone ever has. So it's love, but I wonder if more fundamentally it's intimacy: he has an intimate connection with Will that he hasn't had with anyone, and it comes from being fully known and understood by him. Before, Hannibal could hide behind people not fully understanding his deepest motives and rationalizations. Now, he has been laid psychologically bare before Will through this process. So, as is true for all people, Hannibal really wants to be fully known and then accepted for who he is, for the person who is capable of doing that.

Perhaps that was his one weakness that made him eventually restless. Shame often feels like being known for who we are and yet rejected. Hannibal wanted to be known and accepted by Will (which is why he challenges Will on whether he's really different, and Will says he simply tolerates the killing, he doesn't enjoy it like Hannibal does). Perhaps that's the only time Hannibal has felt anything akin to shame for who he was, as Will's opinion of him may be the only opinion he's ever cared about. Hannibal turning himself in, then, is the pettiness and the intimacy that he desires at the same time. He's getting back at Will for sure, but he may also see this as the only opportunity to yet be accepted by him.
posted by SpacemanStix at 1:01 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah. So you have on the one hand the reality of true intimacy/love, and on the other hand the reality that underneath the trappings Hanni's just another annoying stalker.

I've grumbled a few times before that the way to really mess with Hannibal's head would be to say "Bored now" and then just not bother to engage with him at all. He would automatically go into a frenzy trying to get your attention.

Will did this, and to all appearances didn't do so as a ruse. He wasn't counting on Jack riding up with the US cavalry because Will doesn't believe in the US cavalry; the cops are never coming and if they are, they ain't running to help, in Will's experience. He wasn't trying to manipulate Hannibal into confessing, or doing anything really other than going away. He actually wanted Hannibal to go away and he authentically didn't care what Hannibal did after that.

So of course Hannibal would hide under the porch all night, thinking up the perfect dramatic gesture and the perfect way to eventually drag Will's attention back onto him. If he could've baked a cake to jump out of when Jack arrived, he would have.

I think if no police had arrived, Hannibal would probably have trudged up to Quantico and tried to turn himself in. Hilarious if all the desk clerk did was yawn in his face. He would then have had to art murder the desk clerk as witness to the integrity of his confession.
posted by tel3path at 1:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


please write that fanfic
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:19 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


I keep trying to figure out what this "hitherto unexplored arc" is that Fuller intends to pursue in the fourth season if it materializes. It would really have to occur sometime post-Dolarhyde and pre-Gumb, which is like a 5-year gap? It's been forever since I read Silence or Hannibal -- does one of them mention even briefly what the characters were doing during that interval? We know where Hannibal was, unless Fuller decides to screw with that, but I'm not sure about Will. He has that whole post-Dolarhyde flashback/reflection about how it's merciful to kill monsters. . . . Maybe they could grow something out of that?
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:24 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


It would really have to occur sometime post-Dolarhyde and pre-Gumb

Not necessarily. The whole Florence arc just now happens post-Gumb in the books and movies - they've never shied away from screwing with the timeline.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:33 PM on July 22, 2015


One fan theory is that it would be the part near the end of Hannibal the book, where Hannibal kidnaps, drugs, and brainwashes Clarice over a period of several weeks or months. At this point I'm not sure that's new ground for the show, though.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:35 PM on July 22, 2015


Dancy's really getting into the Hannigram spirit. When one of the Comic Con interviewers asked him Hannibal and Will were over after the skull-sawing etc., he said, "Oh no, no, no, we're just getting started! If a bit of . . . awful violence was gonna end it for us, we would have tapered off a long time ago. No, it's just bringing us closer." I have a feeling he didn't get asked a lot of questions like that about The Jane Austen Book Club.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:38 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


One fan theory is that it would be the part near the end of Hannibal the book, where Hannibal kidnaps, drugs, and brainwashes Clarice over a period of several weeks or months. At this point I'm not sure that's new ground for the show, though.

Oh, I agree. That would really be a step backward for Hannibal since he's made it clear he wants Will to decide to come back. Unless Will and he reverse roles in that scenario to some extent? Which would once again take some doing to become plausible.

I can't think offhand of any other chunk of unaccounted time or a reference to something that happens outside the immediate vicinity/timeframe of the main action, but I'm probably missing something obvious.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2015


Unless Will and he reverse roles in that scenario to some extent? Which would once again take some doing to become plausible.

This is also my pet theory, but as you say, I'm not sure how they'd get there from here.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:44 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


And I get that it can come from anywhere in the timeline; there's just not a whole lot left that isn't Buffalo Bill. So I keep thinking it must be some random comment someone makes about "one summer when I hiked the Appalachian Trail" or "remember that case from Oklahoma?" or something.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:46 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I would really not like to have the Clarice Abduction crap see the light of day again. Part of the greatness of Bedelia and Hannibal Do Florence is that it paved over the original gross nonsense with a steamroller, and Will has already been pretend-brainwashed or halfway-conditioned twice already.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:52 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]


I feel like it must involve Will somehow getting the upper hand. That's only happened for tiny snippets of time so far.

But as of right now, the only way for him to maintain the upper hand is to never interact with Hannibal again, which obviously will not continue to be true in the show...
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:53 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh, and I think (but may be remembering wrong) that Fuller said this arc has never been explored onscreen before, though of course he's a lying liar when it suits him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:54 PM on July 22, 2015


The obvious unexplored arc, to me, is the one where Will becomes a broken-down alcoholic and just fails away into the sunset.

I... don't want that for him.

I just can't shake off the idea that someone's going to run off with Hanni and someone's going to try to brainwash someone and I think that Hanni brainwashing Will is too obvious, so I'm going for Will trying to brainwash Hanni.

Except why would he even try such a thing? He's not a mental health professional. We do, however, have two mental health professionals who have means, opportunity, and perhaps motive to try such a thing. Of the two, probably only one is likely to find the motive to do anything like running off with Hannibal.

The question "could I have ever understood you" - is it imaginable that Alana would take that as a challenge? I guess if she wanted to be the one to catch Hannibal, and undo all her previous screwups by saving Will, then she might also want to be the one to understand and reform Hannibal.

I just. I don't see Alana having that kind of... she's definitely active now, but she got into her present scenario by responding to Mason's call, not by dreaming up an elaborate plot out of whole cloth. Furthermore, her plan was essentially simple: capture Hannibal, then turn both Hannibal and Mason over to the police. (The 'police' bit was not completely thought out, as Will pointed out this past episode.) Alana is just... I guess you could say she's not particularly good at big-picture scheming. She can manipulate pretty well in any one individual scenario, but as for carrying off a long con, it's simply too much for her.

So doing something like breaking Hannibal out and running off with him with the intent to reform him is the kind of grandiose scheme that Alana would not ever be likely to conceive on her own initiative, and she'd be unlikely to succeed at it if she did.

Soooo... yeah, tl;dr I think there's a running-off and a brainwashing coming our way at the end of the season, if the brainwashing is Hannibal-on-Will I think that's too obvious; if the brainwashing is Will-on-Hannibal I think he could do it but... something as crude as brainwashing seems more like it would be attempted by one of the two psychiatrists, and only one of those two psychiatrists has any traceable motive to run off with him, and the grand scale of execution for such a plan seems a bit too much for Alana.

I guess Hannibal could brainwash Alana and induce her to break him out, but I don't know if he'd enjoy running off to Argentina with her.

We probably won't get any Chillibal scenarios, so we can reject that idea out of hand.

WHO'S GONNA BRAINWASH WHO?!?
posted by tel3path at 1:56 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Actually, I think the way for Will to have the upper hand is not to disappear completely - that would eventually result in Hannibal just giving up. Because most stalkers eventually do, and even if Hannibal isn't "most stalkers" even he needs behavioural rewards. Will would be cut loose, but Hannibal would lose his incentive for not breaking out of jail.

I think the way for Will to have the upper hand is to occasionally, like once in a blue moon, interact with Hannibal in a way that he instigates and controls, rather than leaving Hannibal to find some trouble to stir up. And the problem with the intermittent-reinforcement approach is that it wouldn't work; any contact whatsoever would be a toehold for Hannibal to force his way back into Will's life.
posted by tel3path at 2:01 PM on July 22, 2015


But as of right now, the only way for him to maintain the upper hand is to never interact with Hannibal again, which obviously will not continue to be true in the show...

One interesting thing is that when he tells Hannibal just now that he doesn't delight in wickedness but only tolerates it . . . . that's where BookClarice ends up, at a place where she can tolerate or deal with Hannibal being who he is but not really relish or participate in it, which seems like a giant stretch for her character since novice idealistic Silence Clarice just a few years earlier wouldn't even consider "tolerating" the habits of someone so depraved, fascinating as he might be, particularly with her ambitions.

So maybe not "brainwashing" per se, but Will reaching a point where he thinks he can accept and cope with or manage or negotiate with or contain Hannibal on some level isn't completely nuts. I just can't envision him ever willingly letting Hannibal back into the world even in those circumstances unless Molly and the kid are either in a secure bunker somewhere or . . . out of the picture.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I've read fics where Will uses dog training to tame Hannibal. They were surprisingly plausible.
posted by tel3path at 2:15 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh and... clearly Will's tolerance for depravity has its limits, because he breaks up with Hannibal over these recent episodes' events.
posted by tel3path at 2:17 PM on July 22, 2015


Did someone say Les Liaisons Dangereuses?

It's pretty obvious that Will is the Présidente de Tourvel, I suppose Bedelia fits the Merteuil role although we've seen nothing yet that justifies her being the irredemable sociopath of the two. Alana is absolutely Cécile, no question; while an older Cécile might learn to turn the tables and hold her own, it's hard to imagine her becoming an evil mastermind per se, though you could get her to try to become one. She's a quick study when she puts her mind to something, though, so who knows.
posted by tel3path at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2015


I'm still sort of sad about "Digestivo" lacking Michael Pitt because he would have been especially amazing. I wish he would get his [cough]rehab[cough] act together and become a more reliable coworker.

But it's a marvelous consolation to think that in just a few more days . . . H҉̤e̞̼͞ ̯C̠̞̠̩̭͎̲͟͞ͅo҉̸̜̠̘͓̮̗̮͢m͏̲͔͉̺͎̘̤ḙ̱̰̜̩͚̜͞͠ś҉̫͓͓͖̣
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:24 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I can't imagine that Bryan's ~radical plan~ would be "yet another brain-washing for poor ol' Will." And certainly not anything like the Clarice stuff from the third novel. I have no idea what would be good candidates, but I have to think it's something small. Something much like how the first season took what's a few lines tossed off as back story for how Will is related to Hannibal in Red Dragon, and blows it out into this crazy headfuck for show!Will and viewer alike that ends with a delightful inversion of "classic" Lecter imagery. He's said the finale sets up for it, so I'm thinking we will likely have a clearer idea of what plausible guesses are then.

Of course, I hope he never says one way or the other unless/until it's actually going to get made, but he's such a damn tease that I don't know if he has it in him to stick to that.
posted by sparkletone at 3:06 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]


check out the Wound Man and have fun naming the injuries Will hasn't gotten over two and a half seasons!
posted by tel3path at 3:10 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


I have no idea what would be good candidates, but I have to think it's something small. Something much like how the first season took what's a few lines tossed off as back story for how Will is related to Hannibal in Red Dragon, and blows it out into this crazy headfuck for show!Will and viewer alike that ends with a delightful inversion of "classic" Lecter imagery.

That's exactly what I'm envisioning. A throwaway line in one of the books about something a character did at another time or outside the main focus of the books. "Will Graham found piemaking working in a gift shop synchronized swimming to be a valuable part of his rehabilitation." "[Minor character]'s year of living on an aircraft carrier hadn't prepared her for the chaos at this crime scene." That sort of thing.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:50 PM on July 22, 2015


I find the notion that Fuller/Gaumont tried selling the show without telling them the premise for season four very odd. "Here, why don't you buy this show, which is different every season but we won't tell you how different right now... you have to keep watching NBC."

He's not hinting toward how season four will look because of how season three ends. But given that even recently he says Silence of the Lambs would be season five (with some possibility of seeing Clarice in season four, if possible), I can't believe he'll leave Hannibal in prison for a whole other season before that.

Which is why I think Hannibal is out of prison for season four, somehow. And while I think Will let's him out, I don't think exploring the Argentina story could be markedly different than what happened in Italy with Bedelia.

I guess if it's set up more like a Fugitive situation, with the FBI hunting both of them, that might be interesting. But how is that alluded to in the literature? I'm not sure. Especially since Will is barely mentioned in Silence of the Lambs. Is he mentioned in the Hannibal novel at all?

Hmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
posted by crossoverman at 5:04 PM on July 22, 2015


Yeah that was such an odd comment because I remember reading at least one pre or early season interview where he revealed the S4 plan to the journalist off the record. Hard to believe he wouldn't do the same for people actually interested in making the show.
posted by yellowbinder at 5:13 PM on July 22, 2015


Yep, he definitely did mention it to a journalist.

I think Fuller thinks that fans will be champing at the bit for more once season three ends - that might pique interest with outlets that knocked it back already. But I still can't imagine he didn't say "Hannibal and Will become murder husbands on a crazy trip to Argentina" or "Will gets locked up next door to Hannibal, becomes multiple Miggs in the next cell and flings his semen onto Clarice" or whatever it is.
posted by crossoverman at 5:30 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ok I'm definitely hitting the sale tomorrow. If anyone wants to send me cash and a wish list feel free to MeMail me!
posted by yellowbinder at 5:34 PM on July 22, 2015


I uh , call dibs on any sketches or drawing print outs, if that's possible
posted by The Whelk at 5:54 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I guess if it's set up more like a Fugitive situation, with the FBI hunting both of them, that might be interesting.

Or some vague permutation of that. I can easily see Will emerging from Dragontime convinced that he was a reckless idiot to believe he could just go have a normal life*, especially when any step back toward his old job/life or even any person associated with the old one knowing where he is could put his normal lifepeople in extreme jeopardy. What's the point in his trying to avoid Hannibal, Jack, or any of the related stuff when it's going to come find him one way or another?

*Not that it's fair for him to think that about himself, but this is the fellow who feels responsible for all of Hannibal's crimes just because of their emotional bond.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:00 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I find the notion that Fuller/Gaumont tried selling the show without telling them the premise for season four very odd.

Well duh. I'm sure he's discussed things even in some detail with various people. The other writers, Martha DeLaurentiis, and yeah, probably execs being pitched resurrecting show. You don't get to where he is in TV by being bad at pitching even if the shows go on to fail at some point further down the line.

But none of the people he's probably told will spill the beans, so we're left with speculation, and given the specific things that've been said, there's not a ton to work off of.... Yet anyway.

I hadn't really thought about those comments in quite some time until today. Too excited for what we're about to start a few days from now to think about stuff that probably won't ever be much more than speculation for quite a long while after the season's done airing.
posted by sparkletone at 6:37 PM on July 22, 2015


Oh my fucking god.
posted by sparkletone at 7:00 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


Matter of Taste podcast for 3x07 (haven't listened yet, tomorrow maybe).

What The Flick for same (they loved it).
posted by sparkletone at 9:26 PM on July 22, 2015


I'm wondering if every season, Alana will oops!imprison Will, the same way Chilton gets hideously injured each season.
posted by tel3path at 10:24 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Actually, Will realizing, nope the ex will never give up and I'll never have a normal life and so I should FREE Hannibal so I can Re-train him to Be A Human Being would fit nicely with some of the Clockwork Orange themes they set up.

But I can;t for the life of me imagine what Will trying to infect his empathy into Hannibal like Hannibal tried to Vampire him would even look like
posted by The Whelk at 10:32 PM on July 22, 2015


But I can;t for the life of me imagine what Will trying to infect his empathy into Hannibal like Hannibal tried to Vampire him would even look like
posted by The Whelk

Have your re-read the series? Because Will's empathy most certainly infected Hannibal. I won't tell you because SPOILERS.

I'm so excited for this arc. I just finished a re-reading of Red Dragon and I can't even tell you...
posted by blessedlyndie at 11:53 PM on July 22, 2015


Soooooo... no CityTV livestreams have magically popped up since last week, have they?
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:48 AM on July 23, 2015


No, but last week someone posted the full Canadian episode on YouTube sometime on Friday (I didn't trip over it until a few days ago), and it's still up, so one might check that same channel late tonight or early tomorrow?

Heck, I'm half hoping to wake up and find the Amazon stream link in my mailbox tomorrow like last week. Talk about a pleasant surprise.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:12 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Actually, Will realizing, nope the ex will never give up and I'll never have a normal life and so I should FREE Hannibal so I can Re-train him to Be A Human Being would fit nicely with some of the Clockwork Orange themes they set up.

It would sure be a cool inversion or twisting of the "Would you ever say to me, 'Stop -- if you love me, stop'?" / "Not in a thousand years" bit. But isn't part of what Will learned from Chiyoh and Castle Lecter that this isn't someone Hannibal was made into, just what he is, how he was designed to be?

Or not -- I still have no idea what the purpose or outcome of the You Can't Go Home Again trip was meant to be.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:19 AM on July 23, 2015


Yeah it's kind of grasping at straws as I have no idea where it's going from here
posted by The Whelk at 8:32 AM on July 23, 2015


I think the You Can't Go Home Again trip was just part of the crime reconstruction.

I think also it was part of the fix fic, overwriting Hannibal Rising.
posted by tel3path at 8:45 AM on July 23, 2015


No, but last week someone posted the full Canadian episode on YouTube sometime on Friday (I didn't trip over it until a few days ago), and it's still up yt , so one might check that same channel late tonight or early tomorrow?

Oh, there's no shortage of places to find it the next day - in HD even - but I was hoping there was a LIVE stream, something I could use to watch it in real time. There are plenty of these for NBC, but none for CityTV that I was able to find last week.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:27 AM on July 23, 2015


I would check out the Hannibal subreddit close to air time, they might have something. I wouldn't be surprised if the torrent is up much faster than 3 am tonight as well, I imagine the pirates were caught unawares last week.

The subreddit also implies the prop sale is a slight bust, but I shall not be deterred. Report later.
posted by yellowbinder at 10:36 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


I was hoping there was a LIVE stream, something I could use to watch it in real time.

That would be useful. I'm trying to work on my (not very) Zen patience since I'm too lazy to bother with a VPN and the NBC DMCA goons are definitely out in force, fiercely guarding the virtue of a show they don't give a shit about.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:21 AM on July 23, 2015


For me, the real time thing loses a lot of its appeal without the ~communal~ livetweeting thing with the cast and everyone. That sticking with the US airing seems to have made me much more patient than I've been in the past.
posted by sparkletone at 12:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


the Hannibal decor contintues as I GOT MY EGGS TODAY

the silver bowl will eventually be full of fur trmmings, nesting a single large egg, two silk flowers that don't bloom together with a real dead beetle posed on top them. Maybe a Preying Mantis

This is what I'm forcing people who eat at my house to look at
posted by The Whelk at 12:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


If they went with a Retraining Hannibal theme, just think of the promo options. Tonight on Hannibal . . . Wilgram: Rhymes with Milgram

Also, I enjoy how that subreddit has enhanced Talk Like Hannibal by adding a Bitchy Will Graham Reply that begins with "Well, I don't know, Dr. Lecter."
Hannibal: The Slinky is a precompressed helical spring invented by Richard James in the early 1940s. It can perform a number of tricks; travelling down a flight of steps end-over-end as it stretches and re-forms itself with the aid of gravity and its own momentum, or appear to levitate for a period of time after it has been dropped. Tell me, Will . . . can you reform yourself with the aid of your own momentum? Or will you appear to levitate after you've been dropped?

Will: Well, I don't know, Dr. Lecter. I think that if you drop a toy down the stairs again and again, you lose the privilege of choosing what happens to it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:04 PM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


Whelk I need to paint my living room and am seriously considering the dark teal of Hannibal's office
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:06 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is our (interior) design
posted by The Whelk at 1:18 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]


Just left the set sale, it was indeed a little lackluster but still cool. Lots of expensive furniture and cheap art. I bought this giant stag print for 5 bucks and a never worn leatherish jacket for 45. I grabbed a photocopy of the infamous clock drawing that I later realized was in a pile set aside for someone else. Oops. I tried on Garret Jacob Hobbes boots but they were too small. There were a lot of snail shells, boxes and boxes of books from Will and Hannibal's shelves. Lots of tattoo shop stuff from the upcoming arc. I found a box of butter knives labelled with a potentially huge 313 spoiler, which I won't share here but feel free to ask on MeMail. A cool experience but not much actually relevant or recognizable.
posted by yellowbinder at 1:55 PM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Nice stag!
posted by The Whelk at 2:20 PM on July 23, 2015


Just seen some discussion on Tumblr on the parallels between Margot's and Will's tummy scars.

Well... both of them got their scars on the occasion of the killing of their children (or at least so Margot thought, though the death didn't come to pass until 8 and a half months later).

This parallel reinforces the idea of Will as Abigail's mother.
posted by tel3path at 2:50 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


I had the impression that the pig baby was not Margot and Will's but rather an in vitro baby made from one of Margot's harvested eggs and Mason's own sperm. He said he wanted the baby to be both of theirs and I think the time in between Margot's hysterectomy and the pig's Caesarean would be too long.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:11 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


There was no wait for little mooses this week. More easily accessible places to find things that fell off a truck won't be too far behind.
posted by sparkletone at 8:08 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is our (interior) design

I can't be the first to have realized that Will's skill set transfers nicely to exactly this occupation, right? Like I just imagine him walking into the middle of the room, and somehow everyone hears the ZHOOM, ZHOOM, ZHOOM while his eyelids flutter, and then he comes to and very solemnly rattles off accent colors, drapery choices, and just which rug to choose to emphasize a sense of sanctuary while exuding playfully rustic overtones.
posted by invitapriore at 8:22 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


the excellent interior design aesthetic of the show may be because Fuller's partner is one of the better respected interior designers in L.A

Like several items from the collection have appeared on the show or in promo photos. If we're going to be vampired it might as well be from the best
posted by The Whelk at 10:28 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ok so this is where I confess I put off Hannibal for a long time because I assumed based on the photos floating around that it was set in some 1950s pastiche (also to fit the original silence timeline) and Hannibal's jackets made me wince more than his cannibalism...

Everything is so rocco and dark and lush and overblown.

Hannibal in IKEA, that would be a suitable end. A bright cheerful children's section with one of those cute cuddly moose toys.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:08 PM on July 23, 2015


We are told that the baby was definitely Margram's.
posted by tel3path at 11:36 PM on July 23, 2015


So, before I see The Great Red Dragon...

I've been through the various stages on the cancellation of Hannibal, and have reached acceptance. It would be nice to see more of these actors and directors and show runners do more of this, but on thinking about it, the Red Dragon adaptation is a perfect place to complete the project.

After all, the show's intention - signalled by the opening credits - is as an adaptation of that book. Fuller has, obviously, drawn in innumerable elements from Silence and Hannibal (books and films), but essentially the show up to this point is an unpacking and critique of (and a commentary on) the backstory of the first Lecter novel. With two previous film adaptations of a very successful book, surely very few people watching were completely innocent of the Red Dragon story. So part of our watching the show has what we already know running through the backs of our heads (Channel 4's current Humans series is a similar phenomenon for me, though it suffers appallingly from the comparison with its source).

Over two-and-a-half seasons, Fuller has methodically dissected what we thought we knew about Lecter and his mythology until it's almost unrecognisable. And starting now, he puts those parts back together again, hopefully to make something the same but utterly changed. The teacup is a metaphor for the series itself.

And Hannibal is my favourite TV thing (though possibly for different reasons from many other viewers: I admire it partly for its amorality, partly for the way it constantly disassembles and reassembles narrative - something in which its only real challenger is Doctor Who, another series I'm loving seemingly at odds with the rest of its fandom), and I think the work all the principles have done is fantastic and woefully unrecognised. But there is a lot to be said for sufficiency - for setting an aim, achieving it, completing the work and moving on to something equally amazing.

So that's where I am now. The denial and (particularly) bargaining phases weren't pretty, though, and I'm glad they're over.
posted by Grangousier at 5:24 AM on July 24, 2015 [7 favorites]


I can't be the first to have realized that Will's skill set transfers nicely to exactly this occupation, right? Like I just imagine him walking into the middle of the room, and somehow everyone hears the ZHOOM, ZHOOM, ZHOOM while his eyelids flutter, and then he comes to and very solemnly rattles off accent colors, drapery choices, and just which rug to choose to emphasize a sense of sanctuary while exuding playfully rustic overtones.

I didn't know I needed a fake commercial for an interior design company starring Will and Hannibal as the business partners and also possibly the Wendigo, but now I do. Get on this, Funny Or Die.
posted by nicodine at 7:31 AM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


Funny you should mention amorality, Grangousier. I find the show acutely and intensely moral, without ever being moralistic. (That's another thing it has in common with Les Liaisons Dangereuses.)

I mean, we are meant to feel the loss every time a character's choices dwindle to Rock and Hard Place and the only right thing left to do is wrong.

Take Mason, for instance. The thing about Mason is that he was an immediate threat to Hannibal, Will, Margot, mini!Margot (RIP), Alana and basically whoever was next when he was done with them. Not only was he doing things as bad as anything Hannibal ever did, but he had more or less explicit immunity from the law, alluded to in the form of Swiss 'lawyers', Mafia connections, and general ability to run in between the raindrops. Hannibal left him paralyzed, but this didn't prevent Mason from working his will and he will take it to greater extremes even that Margot imagined.

So in the face of this ongoing threat, and the immediate threats to Will and Hannibal at least one of whom arguably shouldn't be tortured [1] and the provocation that Mason killed Margot's baby (a second time), and the reality that physically immobilizing him won't incapacitate him because he has too much malice and too much power - Margot and Alana have a pretty clear case for justifiable homicide there. Or they would if there were anything like an actual functioning legal system in the Hanniverse, which there isn't.

But, I mean, even though Margot and Alana are guiltless, they've been pushed pretty far away from what it means to be human and they're in the hellish situation where they have to do something still more inhuman in order to have any hope of breaking through. Alana really nailed it when she said "we're all dead here". I'm more worried about Alana now than I ever have been, actually.



[1] I'm not really of the school of thought that Hannibal deserves to be maltreated; in general I don't think prisoners should be maltreated, I just want them incapacitated)
posted by tel3path at 8:05 AM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sound on Sight's podcast for Digetstivo. Special guest this episode is Libby Hill. Haven't clicked play yet, but am looking forward to doing so.
posted by sparkletone at 10:42 AM on July 24, 2015


I didn't know I needed a fake commercial for an interior design company starring Will and Hannibal as the business partners and also possibly the Wendigo

Hulu did a commercial for a Hannibal cooking show as an April Fool's gag a while back. I think an interior design show would be the next logical choice after that one.
posted by sparkletone at 10:44 AM on July 24, 2015


tel3path: Before this thread evaporates completely - yes, of course you're right, I was using the word "amorality", rather lazily, to refer to what I perceive to be the inverted, Sadeian morality of this world, which I've gone on about a bit too much and should ease off.

(Writing this quickly and possibly incoherently before I go out):

That said, the usual moral(istic) structure you find in TV shows is that of Law & Order: I'd contend that law-abidingness and adherence to social morés are intricately intertwined. But also in CSI (mentioned here as a direct descendant of Manhunter), where the association between marginal lifestyles and murder is hammered home with all the subtlety that show is known for. The forces of justice are there to punish social deviance.

And that's the way it is in Red Dragon, the book and both the adaptations. But what's happened over the last two and a half seasons is that the unquestionable moral probity of Will and Jack and Alana and Chilton and, to a certain extent, the FBI itself has been fatally undermined by the association with Lecter. I think that's what I meant above - whereas in Harris' books the heroes are Good Guys who are forced to deal with the devil (Lecter), in the series Lecter has compromised them utterly, so the same events are likely to have a completely different set of meanings.

Something a bit like that, I think.
posted by Grangousier at 10:34 AM on July 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


This was great. I was on vacation, and hadn't had time to watch it 'till now. Not much to add, other than it was an amazing hour of TV.
posted by codacorolla at 4:07 PM on July 26, 2015


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