Doctor Who: The Witch's Familiar
September 26, 2015 1:21 PM - Season 9, Episode 2 - Subscribe
Trapped and alone on the terrifying planet Skaro, the Doctor is at the heart of the evil Dalek Empire - no sonic, no TARDIS, nobody to help. With his greatest temptation before him, can the Doctor resist? And will there be mercy?
but... a dalek specifically asked for mercy when river song was threatening it in the pandorica business.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:24 PM on September 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:24 PM on September 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
shhh... cup of tea
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:32 PM on September 26, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:32 PM on September 26, 2015 [17 favorites]
I think the only bit of that I liked was the gag about finding a chair on Skaro. Oh, Davros, you scamp!
(Also, who thought dressing the Doctor like an embarrassing dad at a Duran Duran concert was a good idea?)
posted by sobarel at 2:57 PM on September 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
(Also, who thought dressing the Doctor like an embarrassing dad at a Duran Duran concert was a good idea?)
posted by sobarel at 2:57 PM on September 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
Wouldn't an embarrassing dad at a Duran Duran concert have to be older? The Doctor is only about 2000 years old.
posted by biffa at 3:49 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by biffa at 3:49 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
My feelings on this episode are pretty much the same as the first half: I'm glad I caught it, but mostly just over Missy.
Thoughts in no particular order:
* Sunglasses? Really? No, just no.
* The gag about 'the only other chair on Skaro' was indeed pretty good.
* Clara essentially serving as Missy's companion for most of the episode was comedy gold. I'd be hard pressed to cite a favorite moment when it was just the two of them together on the screen. The whole thing had a great Rick & Morty vibe, down to Missy's improbable gadgets.
* Having Missy try to egg the Doctor into murdering Clara at the end was a much better way to emphasize that she's still evil than the premiere's lame 'Missy randomly shoots some folks' gag. That was funny and horrifying and believable all at the same time.
* Missy's story in the opening about the Doctor versus a bunch of androids was only saved by that final bit about vampire monkeys.
* The Doctor's foiling of Davros' plot seemed particularly lazy this week. It had the feel of, "We only have [x] minutes left in the episode, so... I guess the Doctor actually knew what was going on all along and Davros never took this incredibly obvious flaw into account because the Doctor rules and Daleks droolz." I would've been much happier if they had cut that ridiculous nonsense and just had more of Missy toying with Clara and/or the Daleks.
* Sunglasses? Really? Still no, just no.
posted by mordax at 3:51 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Thoughts in no particular order:
* Sunglasses? Really? No, just no.
* The gag about 'the only other chair on Skaro' was indeed pretty good.
* Clara essentially serving as Missy's companion for most of the episode was comedy gold. I'd be hard pressed to cite a favorite moment when it was just the two of them together on the screen. The whole thing had a great Rick & Morty vibe, down to Missy's improbable gadgets.
* Having Missy try to egg the Doctor into murdering Clara at the end was a much better way to emphasize that she's still evil than the premiere's lame 'Missy randomly shoots some folks' gag. That was funny and horrifying and believable all at the same time.
* Missy's story in the opening about the Doctor versus a bunch of androids was only saved by that final bit about vampire monkeys.
* The Doctor's foiling of Davros' plot seemed particularly lazy this week. It had the feel of, "We only have [x] minutes left in the episode, so... I guess the Doctor actually knew what was going on all along and Davros never took this incredibly obvious flaw into account because the Doctor rules and Daleks droolz." I would've been much happier if they had cut that ridiculous nonsense and just had more of Missy toying with Clara and/or the Daleks.
* Sunglasses? Really? Still no, just no.
posted by mordax at 3:51 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would've been much happier if they had cut that ridiculous nonsense and just had more of Missy toying with Clara and/or the Daleks.
Yes. They should have really cut down the Doctor/Davros time to a minimum and kept the focus on Missy and Clara. That was the good part of this two parter.
posted by ocherdraco at 4:26 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes. They should have really cut down the Doctor/Davros time to a minimum and kept the focus on Missy and Clara. That was the good part of this two parter.
posted by ocherdraco at 4:26 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm probably going to check out of future Fanfare DW threads; I have no problem with the existence of gripewatch threads but it's just not my thing when it comes to Doctor Who. I have an admittedly irrational love for DW--I enjoy it even when I have criticisms of it and wish the writing were better. It's like vacation days: subpar vacation days are way better than non-vacation days. But this is not the right room for that sentiment, I think, and that's OK.
Anyway, ran across this: 14 Questions We Have After Doctor Who--The Witch's Familiar.
Also, sort of baffled by the number of people on Twitter etc. freaking out angrily over the sonic being gone forever, permanently replaced by sunglasses. It's hard to believe anyone who's over the age of 10 would take that at face value. (I think it'd be nice if they gave the sonic a break, but you know it'll be back.)
posted by wintersweet at 5:32 PM on September 26, 2015 [18 favorites]
Anyway, ran across this: 14 Questions We Have After Doctor Who--The Witch's Familiar.
Also, sort of baffled by the number of people on Twitter etc. freaking out angrily over the sonic being gone forever, permanently replaced by sunglasses. It's hard to believe anyone who's over the age of 10 would take that at face value. (I think it'd be nice if they gave the sonic a break, but you know it'll be back.)
posted by wintersweet at 5:32 PM on September 26, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's hard to believe anyone who's over the age of 10 would take that at face value.
... that was a thing? Good grief, but I'm glad I'm falling behind the times and don't Twitter. I must agree completely: of course they won't replace the screwdriver forever.
But this is not the right room for that sentiment, I think, and that's OK.
Can't speak for everyone here, but I'm sorry if what I said came across as gripe watching. Doctor Who was my favorite science fiction franchise as a child, and while it doesn't hold quite that sort of weight for me anymore, it's still special because the Doctor wasn't the guy with the gun. He wasn't the Chosen One. He was, by the standards of his own people, a slacker with a hotwired car, and he solved his problems with quick wits rather than spectacular violence.
I loved that. I still do. As I'm typing this, I guess the other childhood favorite I'd compare him to is maybe MacGuyver - this notion that a guy could succeed without shooting everything up, through being the smartest guy in the room, just with science fantasy trappings instead of action movie ones.
I feel like the people currently running the show loved it as much as I did, but that they took different lessons from it. (Kind of diametrically opposed ones: the Doctor *is* special/Chosen/etc.) It's frustrating listening to characters speechify about the Doctor week after week instead of just letting him be a weird unknown guy doing his thing. It feels like I'm watching fanfic a lot of the time. All the same, I'm not watching it with disgust, but on the chance that if I watch long enough, the next person at the helm will return it to its roots. More... hope watching, I guess? (Plus a natural curiosity about what's happening in something that I did hold so dear.)
Anyway, just speaking for me, hope you stick around and talk about what you do like, though I'll understand if the current negativity is a bit much.
posted by mordax at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
... that was a thing? Good grief, but I'm glad I'm falling behind the times and don't Twitter. I must agree completely: of course they won't replace the screwdriver forever.
But this is not the right room for that sentiment, I think, and that's OK.
Can't speak for everyone here, but I'm sorry if what I said came across as gripe watching. Doctor Who was my favorite science fiction franchise as a child, and while it doesn't hold quite that sort of weight for me anymore, it's still special because the Doctor wasn't the guy with the gun. He wasn't the Chosen One. He was, by the standards of his own people, a slacker with a hotwired car, and he solved his problems with quick wits rather than spectacular violence.
I loved that. I still do. As I'm typing this, I guess the other childhood favorite I'd compare him to is maybe MacGuyver - this notion that a guy could succeed without shooting everything up, through being the smartest guy in the room, just with science fantasy trappings instead of action movie ones.
I feel like the people currently running the show loved it as much as I did, but that they took different lessons from it. (Kind of diametrically opposed ones: the Doctor *is* special/Chosen/etc.) It's frustrating listening to characters speechify about the Doctor week after week instead of just letting him be a weird unknown guy doing his thing. It feels like I'm watching fanfic a lot of the time. All the same, I'm not watching it with disgust, but on the chance that if I watch long enough, the next person at the helm will return it to its roots. More... hope watching, I guess? (Plus a natural curiosity about what's happening in something that I did hold so dear.)
Anyway, just speaking for me, hope you stick around and talk about what you do like, though I'll understand if the current negativity is a bit much.
posted by mordax at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
I would watch the Clara & Missy Show.
"Hmm- twenty feet."
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
"Hmm- twenty feet."
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
While entertaining, I kind of felt like this was a "throw all we have at the wall and see what sticks" episode. A muddle. Clara and Missy running around as a team was great for awhile, but it quickly devolved into a string of "Missy tricks Clara again" gags.
I felt like Clara being in the Dalek could have been developed much more, especially given that the Doctor's first encounter with Clara was with her mind inside a Dalek. As it was, being in the Dalek was about all they had Clara do in this episode, other than be Missy's patsy.
I did like the pointy stick gag.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I felt like Clara being in the Dalek could have been developed much more, especially given that the Doctor's first encounter with Clara was with her mind inside a Dalek. As it was, being in the Dalek was about all they had Clara do in this episode, other than be Missy's patsy.
I did like the pointy stick gag.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not a bad episode, Missy steals the show again. Clara and Missy have so much more chemistry than The Doctor and Missy. Daleks are all destroyed. Again. At least the ones on Skaro 2.0... And The Master has a daughter! I'm hoping that the whole "Why did the Doctor run away from Gallifrey in the first place" thing isn't going to be this season's question that doesn't need an answer but Moffat is going to explain anyway.
Also, sort of baffled by the number of people on Twitter etc. freaking out angrily over the sonic being gone forever
To be fair, it was 14 years between appearances last time it was written out. But good riddance, what started as a nice call back to the original show really, really became a crutch for lazy writing. The only people freaking out angrily should be the BBC merchandising department.
posted by davros42 at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also, sort of baffled by the number of people on Twitter etc. freaking out angrily over the sonic being gone forever
To be fair, it was 14 years between appearances last time it was written out. But good riddance, what started as a nice call back to the original show really, really became a crutch for lazy writing. The only people freaking out angrily should be the BBC merchandising department.
posted by davros42 at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
The only people freaking out angrily should be the BBC merchandising department.
Surely they're too busy making sonic sunglasses? And maybe the news Doctor can revive the sonic lance? And all the action figures variants, because the Doctor now has a "look" not an outfit.
I think I enjoyed this episode (moreso than the nonsensical first half), but the parts were so, so much better than the whole.
It's like vacation days: subpar vacation days are way better than non-vacation days. But this is not the right room for that sentiment, I think, and that's OK.
That's what keeps me watching. I felt Moffatt was having *fun* with the writing here.
If I didn't know he was signed for S10 I'd say he was going all out in his last series.
posted by Mezentian at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Surely they're too busy making sonic sunglasses? And maybe the news Doctor can revive the sonic lance? And all the action figures variants, because the Doctor now has a "look" not an outfit.
I think I enjoyed this episode (moreso than the nonsensical first half), but the parts were so, so much better than the whole.
It's like vacation days: subpar vacation days are way better than non-vacation days. But this is not the right room for that sentiment, I think, and that's OK.
That's what keeps me watching. I felt Moffatt was having *fun* with the writing here.
If I didn't know he was signed for S10 I'd say he was going all out in his last series.
posted by Mezentian at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The sonic will probably come back in a slightly different form, and become another marketing hit.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:00 PM on September 26, 2015
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:00 PM on September 26, 2015
Did anyone miss the New Paradigm Daleks?
I think everyone should have been spinning around, asking for the firm leadership of the New Paradigm Daleks, at least twice as many times as anyone said "Clara Oswald".
posted by Mezentian at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2015
I think everyone should have been spinning around, asking for the firm leadership of the New Paradigm Daleks, at least twice as many times as anyone said "Clara Oswald".
posted by Mezentian at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2015
I guess the screwdriver...
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■ (THESE ARE SONIC NOW)
(⌐■_■)
got retooled.
posted by Gary at 9:14 PM on September 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■ (THESE ARE SONIC NOW)
(⌐■_■)
got retooled.
posted by Gary at 9:14 PM on September 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
I felt Moffatt was having *fun* with the writing here.
And I thought the Doctor/Davros scenes -- two actors, one of them in a rubber mask, having a lengthy conversation in a small enclosed set -- were very deliberately evocative of "talky" Old-Who.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:05 PM on September 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
And I thought the Doctor/Davros scenes -- two actors, one of them in a rubber mask, having a lengthy conversation in a small enclosed set -- were very deliberately evocative of "talky" Old-Who.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:05 PM on September 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
There were a few shots of the Daleks that reminded me of Old Who as well. Just close ups of Daleks in generic white science fiction-y rooms. That scene with Missy and Clara in a non descript outdoor scene with the city in the background also had the feel of an old school quarry.
posted by Gary at 10:19 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Gary at 10:19 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
I quite liked this two-parter! But...
A dalek specifically asked for mercy when river song was threatening it in the pandorica business.
Yeah. Didn't one beg the 9th Doctor for Mercy in Dalek too? It seems like the Daleks have begged for mercy a few times in the new series. When they don't have the upper hand, Daleks are kind of big panicky babies.
That whole element with the Dalek vocabulary being so limited didn't quite square with the Daleks we've always known. It seemed weird that Clara couldn't at least say, "We have known each other for a long time. We have traveled in the TARDIS. Guess who I am."
Also, when the Doctor told kid Davros he was going to save his friend the only way he could, was the "friend" Davros? He wasn't saving Clara at that point. I have the feeling they wrote that scene for part one without knowing how to resolve it for part two.
Also, also, what's with the titles? If the Doctor is the Magician, is Clara his Apprentice? Is Missy the witch, and Clara's her familiar? Not getting it.
I wonder if the Doctor using his regeneration energy is going to be a big deal later. If none of it flowed back into him, it would seem like he gave up a LOT. They haven't really dealt with how his last regeneration worked. The Time Lords gave him a new life, but what happens when THIS one's done?
Stick around wintersweet! I'm a big Doctor Who defender myself, and we can team up!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:29 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
A dalek specifically asked for mercy when river song was threatening it in the pandorica business.
Yeah. Didn't one beg the 9th Doctor for Mercy in Dalek too? It seems like the Daleks have begged for mercy a few times in the new series. When they don't have the upper hand, Daleks are kind of big panicky babies.
That whole element with the Dalek vocabulary being so limited didn't quite square with the Daleks we've always known. It seemed weird that Clara couldn't at least say, "We have known each other for a long time. We have traveled in the TARDIS. Guess who I am."
Also, when the Doctor told kid Davros he was going to save his friend the only way he could, was the "friend" Davros? He wasn't saving Clara at that point. I have the feeling they wrote that scene for part one without knowing how to resolve it for part two.
Also, also, what's with the titles? If the Doctor is the Magician, is Clara his Apprentice? Is Missy the witch, and Clara's her familiar? Not getting it.
I wonder if the Doctor using his regeneration energy is going to be a big deal later. If none of it flowed back into him, it would seem like he gave up a LOT. They haven't really dealt with how his last regeneration worked. The Time Lords gave him a new life, but what happens when THIS one's done?
Stick around wintersweet! I'm a big Doctor Who defender myself, and we can team up!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:29 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just close ups of Daleks in generic white science fiction-y rooms.
With weirdly impractical doors.
I didn't realise just how impractical until I saw the extras, and Capaldi had just trouble zooming around in Davros' chair.
He hit the set, which, yes, wobbled, and I may have squeed a little.
I love a good wobbly set.
That scene with Missy and Clara in a non descript outdoor scene with the city in the background also had the feel of an old school quarry.
Which, oddly, they flew to Tenerife to shoot.
posted by Mezentian at 10:31 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
With weirdly impractical doors.
I didn't realise just how impractical until I saw the extras, and Capaldi had just trouble zooming around in Davros' chair.
He hit the set, which, yes, wobbled, and I may have squeed a little.
I love a good wobbly set.
That scene with Missy and Clara in a non descript outdoor scene with the city in the background also had the feel of an old school quarry.
Which, oddly, they flew to Tenerife to shoot.
posted by Mezentian at 10:31 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Didn't one beg the 9th Doctor for Mercy in Dalek too? It seems like the Daleks have begged for mercy a few times in the new series.
The same Dalek basically regenerated too, by stealing's Rose's template (or something).
The same Dalek (and the Kaled mutants before and since) seem to die pretty easily outside their cases.
I don't think there's any consistency to be found. And I'm okay with that.
The title is rationalised here (From Wintersweet's's link)
That whole element with the Dalek vocabulary being so limited didn't quite square with the Daleks we've always known.
And then there was a time Davros was a head, but got somehow regenerated, and yet ended up looking much the same as he ever was.
(Also, did Davros cry? Because it looked to me like he did. That's some pretty serious acting from Julian Beach. I guess even a Davros can cry.)
And he turns out to have been the ballet instructor in Age Of Ultron. Guy knows how to create monsters.
posted by Mezentian at 10:39 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The same Dalek basically regenerated too, by stealing's Rose's template (or something).
The same Dalek (and the Kaled mutants before and since) seem to die pretty easily outside their cases.
I don't think there's any consistency to be found. And I'm okay with that.
The title is rationalised here (From Wintersweet's's link)
That whole element with the Dalek vocabulary being so limited didn't quite square with the Daleks we've always known.
And then there was a time Davros was a head, but got somehow regenerated, and yet ended up looking much the same as he ever was.
(Also, did Davros cry? Because it looked to me like he did. That's some pretty serious acting from Julian Beach. I guess even a Davros can cry.)
And he turns out to have been the ballet instructor in Age Of Ultron. Guy knows how to create monsters.
posted by Mezentian at 10:39 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed parts of last week's episode but I think I hated this one. I agree that Missy and Clara was the best part of these two episodes, although at times I thought Missy was a bit much.
Maybe it's just me, but my initial impression is that this is a typical example of Moffat-era setting things up with big ideas and then everything there on through the resolution just feels slapdash.
The one thing that I do appreciate about these two episodes and this one especially, even though it didn't quite work for me, were all the intentional evocations of the classic show. The sets, the talky stuff, etc. That's in the category of things -- like the Robin Hood episode or the London forest episode -- where I can wholeheartedly applaud the ambition, the concept, while being unhappy with the realization. In this case, I'm happy with the realization of the concept, it's just that I think that the episode(s) as a whole just didn't work.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:46 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe it's just me, but my initial impression is that this is a typical example of Moffat-era setting things up with big ideas and then everything there on through the resolution just feels slapdash.
The one thing that I do appreciate about these two episodes and this one especially, even though it didn't quite work for me, were all the intentional evocations of the classic show. The sets, the talky stuff, etc. That's in the category of things -- like the Robin Hood episode or the London forest episode -- where I can wholeheartedly applaud the ambition, the concept, while being unhappy with the realization. In this case, I'm happy with the realization of the concept, it's just that I think that the episode(s) as a whole just didn't work.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:46 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I liked this one than anything I saw from the last season. Which is a low bar, admittedly.
Missy and Clara were practically at levels of Blackadder levels of fun. I was hoping for "Well Clara, the world isn't fair. If it was, I couldn't do this- *smack"
Also, the Doctor is basically Brian Eno. right?
Also like Moffat things it's all flash and not really thinking about the substance. Like, if he had the opportunity to save or kill Davros, he could also take him on as a companion fr a bit, or at least transport him to say, Earth 1100 BC. *poof* te Daleks never existed. I mean, you can come up with pretty decent reasons for why the Doctor didn't (he has before), but still...
posted by happyroach at 11:43 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Missy and Clara were practically at levels of Blackadder levels of fun. I was hoping for "Well Clara, the world isn't fair. If it was, I couldn't do this- *smack"
Also, the Doctor is basically Brian Eno. right?
Also like Moffat things it's all flash and not really thinking about the substance. Like, if he had the opportunity to save or kill Davros, he could also take him on as a companion fr a bit, or at least transport him to say, Earth 1100 BC. *poof* te Daleks never existed. I mean, you can come up with pretty decent reasons for why the Doctor didn't (he has before), but still...
posted by happyroach at 11:43 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes, a Dalek did beg River Song for mercy. But a) The Doctor wasn't there to hear it happen, so he didn't have the time to wonder "how do they know about that concept, and b) that happened after The Doctor saved Lil' Davros anyway, so mercy as a Dalek concept was chronologically established.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:28 AM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:28 AM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Blackadder levels of fun
So much script ready to be pilfered right there...
"Clara, what starts with Come here and ends with ow"
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:14 AM on September 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
So much script ready to be pilfered right there...
"Clara, what starts with Come here and ends with ow"
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:14 AM on September 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Sigh...
I will admit that Clara and Missy were terribly fun running around, but the Doctor/Davros thing was painful. "I tricked you into putting your regeneration fingers on those wires! MUAHAHAA!" "I knew you were going to trick me into putting my regeneration fingers on your wires and I awoke your heretofore unmentioned DALEK SEWER OOZE to take over the planet! MUAHAHAHA!" How...um?
Also, Capaldi is Of a Certain Age, and though I think it's fine for Men of a Certain Age (I am one of them, and long-haired, and not growing up as I should) can indulge in whatever they want, the electric guitar and sunglasses and t-shirt/blazer combo just make him seem like Doctor Who and the Very Long Mid-Life Crisis, which I suppose makes sense, given that it's written by who it's written by, but man, I wish they'd not do that with the character.
posted by xingcat at 7:06 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I will admit that Clara and Missy were terribly fun running around, but the Doctor/Davros thing was painful. "I tricked you into putting your regeneration fingers on those wires! MUAHAHAA!" "I knew you were going to trick me into putting my regeneration fingers on your wires and I awoke your heretofore unmentioned DALEK SEWER OOZE to take over the planet! MUAHAHAHA!" How...um?
Also, Capaldi is Of a Certain Age, and though I think it's fine for Men of a Certain Age (I am one of them, and long-haired, and not growing up as I should) can indulge in whatever they want, the electric guitar and sunglasses and t-shirt/blazer combo just make him seem like Doctor Who and the Very Long Mid-Life Crisis, which I suppose makes sense, given that it's written by who it's written by, but man, I wish they'd not do that with the character.
posted by xingcat at 7:06 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I just rewatched it.
Loved it.
And I hated the first part.
Loved.
It.
posted by Mezentian at 7:36 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Loved it.
And I hated the first part.
Loved.
It.
posted by Mezentian at 7:36 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think this story was quite a lot more ambitious than many people will credit, but I have to say I do have a lot of respect for what Moffat put into it. The way Skaro of serial 2 (back in series 1, not season 1, series 1 - looking at you, Wikipedia), with the strange looking doors and corridors was recreated, and then the quite meticulous work with continuity with all of Davros' stories - loved it. The mercy thing is nitpicking for me, because, you know, they forgot about the clicking your fingers thing with the TARDIS last season, so I'm cutting some slack here.
But you know what? There's a lot more interesting stuff going on. When was the last time you saw the Master as a companion, or with a companion, since the reboot? Perhaps it happened in classic Who, I don't know. I thought the way the story called for Missy to realign viewer's expectations of who she really is was great too. Yes, we know that they've been friends all along, but at least in the reboot there's been a lot of focus on the enemy part. Here, I think we got a nice balance, with some terrific acting too. I do like the way that Moffat brings to the fore elements of classic who that might have been long forgotten, because it makes the show feel like a single entity rather than two.
Obviously, there's also the hefty amount of screen time with just the Doctor and Davros chinwagging. Moffat's right - it's compelling watching them talk, and it's because this makes you think hard about just what exactly the difference between the two Ds is. I'm glad this was a two-parter, because the 45 minute runtime doesn't allow for this kind of classic-style indulgence.
The one part I did not like at all is how the Daleks weren't scary - yet again. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but nobody died. That's pretty important if you're going to have the supreme warriors turn up in a story. The exposition from Missy may have served to tie up that loose end from last season, but it just makes the Daleks even less scary. Doesn't this mean every time we see them now, we're just going to say, oh, Clara and Missy have a way of not getting killed by them, so come back when you have a genuine threat?
Having said all this, I can see why others may dislike it. But, as openers go, I'd much rather this than Deep Breath any day of the week.
Oh, and is anyone else disappointed that disconnecting Clara from the Dalek shell didn't mean killing her off? I was rather hoping she'd be gone by now.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 7:40 AM on September 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
But you know what? There's a lot more interesting stuff going on. When was the last time you saw the Master as a companion, or with a companion, since the reboot? Perhaps it happened in classic Who, I don't know. I thought the way the story called for Missy to realign viewer's expectations of who she really is was great too. Yes, we know that they've been friends all along, but at least in the reboot there's been a lot of focus on the enemy part. Here, I think we got a nice balance, with some terrific acting too. I do like the way that Moffat brings to the fore elements of classic who that might have been long forgotten, because it makes the show feel like a single entity rather than two.
Obviously, there's also the hefty amount of screen time with just the Doctor and Davros chinwagging. Moffat's right - it's compelling watching them talk, and it's because this makes you think hard about just what exactly the difference between the two Ds is. I'm glad this was a two-parter, because the 45 minute runtime doesn't allow for this kind of classic-style indulgence.
The one part I did not like at all is how the Daleks weren't scary - yet again. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but nobody died. That's pretty important if you're going to have the supreme warriors turn up in a story. The exposition from Missy may have served to tie up that loose end from last season, but it just makes the Daleks even less scary. Doesn't this mean every time we see them now, we're just going to say, oh, Clara and Missy have a way of not getting killed by them, so come back when you have a genuine threat?
Having said all this, I can see why others may dislike it. But, as openers go, I'd much rather this than Deep Breath any day of the week.
Oh, and is anyone else disappointed that disconnecting Clara from the Dalek shell didn't mean killing her off? I was rather hoping she'd be gone by now.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 7:40 AM on September 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I really disliked the first part, but this episode made everything cohere nicely. I much preferred the Davros/Doctor conversation to the zany Missy/Clara adventures. Doctor Who has been far too manic lately. So I liked that Davros and the Doctor could just have a conversation about their empires.
Daleks have definitely said 'mercy' before and the Doctor has heard it, but I think the Doctor only started questioning at that moment why they were able to say 'mercy'.
posted by painquale at 7:50 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Daleks have definitely said 'mercy' before and the Doctor has heard it, but I think the Doctor only started questioning at that moment why they were able to say 'mercy'.
posted by painquale at 7:50 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ah, Clara & Missy = THE BEST.
Pretty decent second-parter, I'd say, though Shepherd and I winced a bit that the de-materialized TARDIS and sonic sunglasses (NO) bit. I was very frightened by the idea of Clara possibly not being able to get out of the Dalek casing (claustrophobia, I suppose) and being killed by a goaded Doctor.
posted by Kitteh at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2015
Pretty decent second-parter, I'd say, though Shepherd and I winced a bit that the de-materialized TARDIS and sonic sunglasses (NO) bit. I was very frightened by the idea of Clara possibly not being able to get out of the Dalek casing (claustrophobia, I suppose) and being killed by a goaded Doctor.
posted by Kitteh at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2015
When was the last time you saw the Master as a companion, or with a companion, since the reboot? Perhaps it happened in classic Who, I don't know.
The only times I recall the Master as a companion (or, at least, as someone working with the Doctor) are "The Five Doctors" and "Scream of the Shalka", a 40th anniversary flash animation. There may have been others, but I'm least familiar with 5's and 6's runs and haven't watched through 3's in a while.
I quite liked both this episode and last week's. The callbacks to "Genesis of the Daleks" felt very gratifying -- it's one of the serials I've been a bit surprised they haven't referenced earlier, as it kind of epitomizes the Doctor's whole current (albeit inconsistent) no-kill-even-if-they're-the-worst approach. Honestly, though, I would have enjoyed it more if the whole thing really was that Davros was just dying and having a moment with the Doctor. Yeah, I expected there was a sinister plot in there, but I kind of hoped there wasn't, and that the Daleks could end at the hand of a remorseful Davros.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:56 AM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
The only times I recall the Master as a companion (or, at least, as someone working with the Doctor) are "The Five Doctors" and "Scream of the Shalka", a 40th anniversary flash animation. There may have been others, but I'm least familiar with 5's and 6's runs and haven't watched through 3's in a while.
I quite liked both this episode and last week's. The callbacks to "Genesis of the Daleks" felt very gratifying -- it's one of the serials I've been a bit surprised they haven't referenced earlier, as it kind of epitomizes the Doctor's whole current (albeit inconsistent) no-kill-even-if-they're-the-worst approach. Honestly, though, I would have enjoyed it more if the whole thing really was that Davros was just dying and having a moment with the Doctor. Yeah, I expected there was a sinister plot in there, but I kind of hoped there wasn't, and that the Daleks could end at the hand of a remorseful Davros.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:56 AM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
So, what do you folks think Missy's "great idea*" at the end was (other than being some way in which she survives, of course?)
*-Or good, brilliant, or whatever term she used. I can't recall exactly.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:10 AM on September 27, 2015
*-Or good, brilliant, or whatever term she used. I can't recall exactly.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:10 AM on September 27, 2015
And I thought the Doctor/Davros scenes -- two actors, one of them in a rubber mask, having a lengthy conversation in a small enclosed set -- were very deliberately evocative of "talky" Old-Who.
Back in classic Who, this would have been shot with locked down cameras. It would have looked static. Today, the talky scenes are recorded and edited more dynamically, with the result having more motion, even subtly.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:18 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Back in classic Who, this would have been shot with locked down cameras. It would have looked static. Today, the talky scenes are recorded and edited more dynamically, with the result having more motion, even subtly.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:18 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Honestly, though, I would have enjoyed it more if the whole thing really was that Davros was just dying and having a moment with the Doctor.
That would've been pretty great. I enjoyed the conversation a lot, up until it devolved into nonsensical gambits.
posted by mordax at 10:07 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
That would've been pretty great. I enjoyed the conversation a lot, up until it devolved into nonsensical gambits.
posted by mordax at 10:07 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I really enjoyed it. If the whole season is like this, it'll be a significant improvement, not just over last season, but over most of the new series. I really enjoy the incorporation of the old series and the moral challenges, and I love Missy to bits as a foil for both the Doctor and Clara. There's a lot of continuity going on and not just in the nit-picky forty-something dude way.
Also as a woman of a certain age, he doesn't look like a dad at a Duran Duran concert. He looks like the kind of guy a woman who was a fan back in the day would take for her date. I'm iffy on some of the pseudo-Pertwee mane and I certainly appreciate his Three-referential costumes, but this is not a bad look as far as I'm concerned, and no more twee and ridiculous as a fashion choice than the very 80s-referential (to me anyway) Tennant suit and high-tops look.
(Yes the screwdriver will be back. You know it.)
posted by immlass at 10:07 AM on September 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also as a woman of a certain age, he doesn't look like a dad at a Duran Duran concert. He looks like the kind of guy a woman who was a fan back in the day would take for her date. I'm iffy on some of the pseudo-Pertwee mane and I certainly appreciate his Three-referential costumes, but this is not a bad look as far as I'm concerned, and no more twee and ridiculous as a fashion choice than the very 80s-referential (to me anyway) Tennant suit and high-tops look.
(Yes the screwdriver will be back. You know it.)
posted by immlass at 10:07 AM on September 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm assuming Missy's great idea is what she earlier described the Doctor doing to escape the invisible androids.
posted by plastic_animals at 10:15 AM on September 27, 2015
posted by plastic_animals at 10:15 AM on September 27, 2015
Enjoyed this two-partner much more than anything last season (with the Robin Hood episode being the nadir). Doctor Who has been too manic under Moffat's regime and I'm glad he wasn't afraid to have some interesting dialogue between the Doctor and Davros. The bit where he touches the cables/Davros says 'You fell for it!'/Doctor says, 'Not really!' was cheesy but could that, too, not been an allusion to the earlier Doctor Who days? Anyways I'm willing to shrug my shoulders at that bit because the real point of that plot was to get the Doctor and Davros stuck in the same room together; great stuff.
(I was fine with the blazer, t-shirt and sunglasses, thought it looked cooool. Peter Capuldi is 57, I don't think we have to be coy about it or avoid saying it like it's something shameful. It's great to see a talented actor in the role.)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:39 AM on September 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
(I was fine with the blazer, t-shirt and sunglasses, thought it looked cooool. Peter Capuldi is 57, I don't think we have to be coy about it or avoid saying it like it's something shameful. It's great to see a talented actor in the role.)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:39 AM on September 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm assuming Missy's great idea is what she earlier described the Doctor doing to escape the invisible androids.
Possibly. Although, if I recall correctly, that escape required a transport type of device, and the vortex manipulators that both Missy and Clara had were, according to Missy, fried when they escaped the Daleks and ended up outside.
I suspect we'll eventually find out, even if it's in the next series.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:48 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Possibly. Although, if I recall correctly, that escape required a transport type of device, and the vortex manipulators that both Missy and Clara had were, according to Missy, fried when they escaped the Daleks and ended up outside.
I suspect we'll eventually find out, even if it's in the next series.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:48 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The moment I most loathed was, I think Missy affected an 'american' accent for a few lines, which was like listening to dalek turds.
And why can't we just call her The Master, which is who she's supposed to be. This kitschy 'Missy' business is just horrid and droll. When they finally get around to having a female Doctor, they aren't going to call her The Nurse, are they? They should have just brought back The Rani instead.
I did like the Tom Baker callback, though really, they should have not made the switch and shot a stand in from the back or something.
posted by Catblack at 12:13 PM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
And why can't we just call her The Master, which is who she's supposed to be. This kitschy 'Missy' business is just horrid and droll. When they finally get around to having a female Doctor, they aren't going to call her The Nurse, are they? They should have just brought back The Rani instead.
I did like the Tom Baker callback, though really, they should have not made the switch and shot a stand in from the back or something.
posted by Catblack at 12:13 PM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I assume that what Missy was going to say was "I have a great idea! It will REALLY annoy the Doctor. As for you lot..." *shrug*
posted by happyroach at 12:32 PM on September 27, 2015
posted by happyroach at 12:32 PM on September 27, 2015
I see that I'm in the minority here, because this is the episode that is seriously making me give up on this show, after 10 years of fandom. A first happened in our household on Saturday evening: I was so bored with this one that at 30 minutes in, when my son asked if we could watch one of his cartoon DVDs instead, I said "sure ... that actually sounds like more fun than this."
Finished the episode this morning, and I just don't know. For one thing, the dialogue. It feels like every single line is written to be some quotable thing designed to end up in a subtitled GIF - like this was the first episode written expressly for Tumblr.
Also, everything just felt ridiculous and forced. The Doctor freely offers the most evil entity in the universe some of his precious energy, so he can see one last sunrise? Come on. Clara trusting Missy so completely? COME ON. Dozens of other times, I thought, "that character wouldn't really do that, if not for the fact that the Plot Hammer requires them to."
Can I also dissent from most fans to say how much I hate Missy's character? She has a level of mean-spiritedness that feels really out of place on this show to me. That moment on the last episode, when she killed a guy and joked about how she saw that he had a ring and some baby's milk on his clothes? COME ON. Several degrees too dark for modern Doctor Who.
My wife came in while I was watching this episode, and saw that I wasn't digging it. She asked me, "so is this Moffat guy just messing with people now to see what he can get away with?" I know a lot of people thought that through the last two seasons (and I didn't), but I'm starting to come around to that opinion. I think it's time for a new showrunner.
posted by jbickers at 12:37 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Finished the episode this morning, and I just don't know. For one thing, the dialogue. It feels like every single line is written to be some quotable thing designed to end up in a subtitled GIF - like this was the first episode written expressly for Tumblr.
Also, everything just felt ridiculous and forced. The Doctor freely offers the most evil entity in the universe some of his precious energy, so he can see one last sunrise? Come on. Clara trusting Missy so completely? COME ON. Dozens of other times, I thought, "that character wouldn't really do that, if not for the fact that the Plot Hammer requires them to."
Can I also dissent from most fans to say how much I hate Missy's character? She has a level of mean-spiritedness that feels really out of place on this show to me. That moment on the last episode, when she killed a guy and joked about how she saw that he had a ring and some baby's milk on his clothes? COME ON. Several degrees too dark for modern Doctor Who.
My wife came in while I was watching this episode, and saw that I wasn't digging it. She asked me, "so is this Moffat guy just messing with people now to see what he can get away with?" I know a lot of people thought that through the last two seasons (and I didn't), but I'm starting to come around to that opinion. I think it's time for a new showrunner.
posted by jbickers at 12:37 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Can I also dissent from most fans to say how much I hate Missy's character?
Eh, being able to politely dissent is why I like to discuss TV here and not... anywhere else on the Internet, really.
She asked me, "so is this Moffat guy just messing with people now to see what he can get away with?" I know a lot of people thought that through the last two seasons (and I didn't), but I'm starting to come around to that opinion. I think it's time for a new showrunner.
I stand by my assessment that it's more a case of running the asylum, which inevitably leads to problems. Doesn't really matter why there are problems though, the 'new showrunner' thing is the solution either way.
(I actually did stop watching awhile in S7 - Dinosaurs On A Spaceship was so half baked that I had to take a break for a bit.)
posted by mordax at 1:20 PM on September 27, 2015
Eh, being able to politely dissent is why I like to discuss TV here and not... anywhere else on the Internet, really.
She asked me, "so is this Moffat guy just messing with people now to see what he can get away with?" I know a lot of people thought that through the last two seasons (and I didn't), but I'm starting to come around to that opinion. I think it's time for a new showrunner.
I stand by my assessment that it's more a case of running the asylum, which inevitably leads to problems. Doesn't really matter why there are problems though, the 'new showrunner' thing is the solution either way.
(I actually did stop watching awhile in S7 - Dinosaurs On A Spaceship was so half baked that I had to take a break for a bit.)
posted by mordax at 1:20 PM on September 27, 2015
I understood Missy's "clever idea" line as just a nod to the fact that we'll see her again at some point in the future, and as always, we'll just assume that she did something clever to get out of what appeared to be certain death. I don't think the specifics of her clever idea are meant to be revealed.
posted by painquale at 1:38 PM on September 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by painquale at 1:38 PM on September 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I liked this episode and it made me laugh but in the last few seasons it's better not to watch it sober and then never think about it ever again.
posted by bleep at 1:44 PM on September 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:44 PM on September 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
And why can't we just call her The Master, which is who she's supposed to be. This kitschy 'Missy' business is just horrid and droll. When they finally get around to having a female Doctor, they aren't going to call her The Nurse, are they?
Master and Mistress are gendered while doctor and nurse aren't so it's not really a meaningful comparison. Also it was so they could have it as a bit more of a surprise when they reintroduced the character last season.
this is the episode that is seriously making me give up on this show, after 10 years of fandom
No0b.
posted by biffa at 3:27 PM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Master and Mistress are gendered while doctor and nurse aren't so it's not really a meaningful comparison. Also it was so they could have it as a bit more of a surprise when they reintroduced the character last season.
this is the episode that is seriously making me give up on this show, after 10 years of fandom
No0b.
posted by biffa at 3:27 PM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I liked the first episode a lot. This one was mostly yelling and nonsense. Capaldi and the actor playing Davros knocked their big scene out of the park; but as noted upthread, the Doctor feeding Davros his regeneration energy made no sense. Even if the Doctor's plan all along was to feed Davros the regeneration energy and then use it to reanimate the Liquid Daleks, the existence and motivation of which is kind of befuddling to me but whatever, this plan still makes no sense, because it leaves the Doctor's survival to chance and also frankly seems much more complex a method to destroy the Daleks than is necessary. The Doctor has destroyed the Daleks like two hundred times. There had to be a simpler and safer way. Whatever.
The scene where Missy was yelling in, I think, an American southern accent was one of the godawfullest things I've witnessed on this show. I really like Michelle Gomez when they let her be sly and restrained -- she reminds me in those moments of Roger Delgado, which is wonderful -- but when they make her manic, it's just insufferable to me. I felt the same way about the previous Master, who I know is much loved as an actor, but Jesus. Christ. So irritating, man.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:58 PM on September 27, 2015
The scene where Missy was yelling in, I think, an American southern accent was one of the godawfullest things I've witnessed on this show. I really like Michelle Gomez when they let her be sly and restrained -- she reminds me in those moments of Roger Delgado, which is wonderful -- but when they make her manic, it's just insufferable to me. I felt the same way about the previous Master, who I know is much loved as an actor, but Jesus. Christ. So irritating, man.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:58 PM on September 27, 2015
I think Michelle Gomez has figured out that this whole thing is basically panto. She practically winked at the camera before knocking Clara into the hole.
(I think Capaldi may have also figured this out)
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:29 PM on September 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
(I think Capaldi may have also figured this out)
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:29 PM on September 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
It would have been so cool if Clara got good at using her Dalek suit and she and the Doctor had a season of zany adventures like that! With that disguise, she could be just as powerful as the Doctor, and scare people and fly around and sneak into Dalek encampments and such. And it would end all the criticism of Clara just being eye candy and not actually useful. I was convinced this would happen right up to the end of the episode when they made it clear it wouldn't. Maybe fertile ground for fanfic though.
posted by miyabo at 7:14 PM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 7:14 PM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
There was an opportunity to make sense of The Asylum of the Daleks in this episode that was entirely lost, or forgotten or turned into a failed souffléof plot boiling.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 7:42 PM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Cold Lurkey at 7:42 PM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
There was an opportunity to make sense of The Asylum of the Daleks in this episode that was entirely lost,
My script: Democracy Of The Daleks will make sense of it all.
You wait.
I can't say too much, but the Human Factor Daleks are involved. Because otherwise a sham Parliament makes no sense at all.
I still can't figure out that bit about the Doctor wiping his name from the dalek database, thought.
That seems to have gone nowhere.
When was the last time you saw the Master as a companion, or with a companion, since the reboot? Perhaps it happened in classic Who, I don't know.
The only times I recall the Master as a companion (or, at least, as someone working with the Doctor) are "The Five Doctors" and "Scream of the Shalka"
The Ultimate Foe - Sabalom Glitz and the Master teamed up. Was Mel there too? I forget. Deliberately.
Mrs Saxon-Master in the Last of the Time Lords filled the companion role too.
You might be able to chuck "Logopolis/Castrovalva" in there too, and parts of the season where he was trapped on Earth with Pertwee (circa Sea Devils). There were a few lovely fireside chats/swordfights/brief alliances there.
posted by Mezentian at 10:55 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
My script: Democracy Of The Daleks will make sense of it all.
You wait.
I can't say too much, but the Human Factor Daleks are involved. Because otherwise a sham Parliament makes no sense at all.
I still can't figure out that bit about the Doctor wiping his name from the dalek database, thought.
That seems to have gone nowhere.
When was the last time you saw the Master as a companion, or with a companion, since the reboot? Perhaps it happened in classic Who, I don't know.
The only times I recall the Master as a companion (or, at least, as someone working with the Doctor) are "The Five Doctors" and "Scream of the Shalka"
The Ultimate Foe - Sabalom Glitz and the Master teamed up. Was Mel there too? I forget. Deliberately.
Mrs Saxon-Master in the Last of the Time Lords filled the companion role too.
You might be able to chuck "Logopolis/Castrovalva" in there too, and parts of the season where he was trapped on Earth with Pertwee (circa Sea Devils). There were a few lovely fireside chats/swordfights/brief alliances there.
posted by Mezentian at 10:55 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
In a meta sense, I find it very interesting that the rebooted show's producers have made a close examination of why Doctor Who was cancelled in the 1980s, and have tried to avoid the same pitfalls. These strategies have sometimes caused a lot of frustrations for fans. Because while Davies and Moffat are true fans themselves, they also know that making DW for the fans is not enough. They have to get a much broader swath of the public to tune in week after week.
So while I hated the ever-increasing stakes of the season finales (DobbyDoctor is worse than anything Moffat has done IMHO), it was purposefully done to juice the ratings. And it worked. It kept the show going for the smaller-scale stories I like better.
Moffat loves callbacks so much, but he tries to keep it under control and low-key enough that new viewers are not buried by 50 years of lore. He's also familiar enough with the classic show to know that any lore can be jettisoned and replaced if it becomes too inconvenient. He also knows that every fan likes different things about the show and sees the show through that lens. Some like the relatively hard sci-fi stories of Tom Baker's final season. Some people like the wry banter of the UNIT years. Some people like the allegorical Sylvester McCoy stories. We all have the parts we hate, too, but it turns out those parts are the things some other people love most. Moffat includes it all, and throws in a heaping plateful of steaming X-Files, too.
For me, it works most of the time. It's usually fun to watch, and it feels like Doctor Who to me. If you get frustrated with the current incarnation, I suggest going back and watching the misbegotten TV-Movie. Then do a little reading on the plans they had for THAT reboot and be glad we dodged that bullet. Then go back and watch Colin Baker's first season. It's not good, but there are things to love about it all the same. I think the current incarnation IS good, though I can always find holes to poke. Doctor Who has always had those. Or go back and watch some of the first doctor. The pacing is difficult, but I think it's recognizably the same show.
I'm glad to see them getting rid of the sonic, and hope they use the glasses more responsibly.
posted by rikschell at 5:29 AM on September 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
So while I hated the ever-increasing stakes of the season finales (DobbyDoctor is worse than anything Moffat has done IMHO), it was purposefully done to juice the ratings. And it worked. It kept the show going for the smaller-scale stories I like better.
Moffat loves callbacks so much, but he tries to keep it under control and low-key enough that new viewers are not buried by 50 years of lore. He's also familiar enough with the classic show to know that any lore can be jettisoned and replaced if it becomes too inconvenient. He also knows that every fan likes different things about the show and sees the show through that lens. Some like the relatively hard sci-fi stories of Tom Baker's final season. Some people like the wry banter of the UNIT years. Some people like the allegorical Sylvester McCoy stories. We all have the parts we hate, too, but it turns out those parts are the things some other people love most. Moffat includes it all, and throws in a heaping plateful of steaming X-Files, too.
For me, it works most of the time. It's usually fun to watch, and it feels like Doctor Who to me. If you get frustrated with the current incarnation, I suggest going back and watching the misbegotten TV-Movie. Then do a little reading on the plans they had for THAT reboot and be glad we dodged that bullet. Then go back and watch Colin Baker's first season. It's not good, but there are things to love about it all the same. I think the current incarnation IS good, though I can always find holes to poke. Doctor Who has always had those. Or go back and watch some of the first doctor. The pacing is difficult, but I think it's recognizably the same show.
I'm glad to see them getting rid of the sonic, and hope they use the glasses more responsibly.
posted by rikschell at 5:29 AM on September 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
Also, Moffat is starting to directly reference the Curse of Fatal Death, which you either love or hate, so there's that.
posted by rikschell at 5:37 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rikschell at 5:37 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really, really hate being Moffatted at.
I'm sick of whimsy and I'm sick of silly voices and I'm sick of everything the Doctor does being the machinae ex which he doth deus. Because no matter how much NuWho fans squee about how it's just like OldWho when he did the thing and the Daleks went *poof* it's not: The clever tricks were the resolution to the episode-three-or-five cliffhanger. This is the Doctor as space wizard, with Clara as the boggle-eyed exposition magnet and MIssy as the i-don't-know-fucking-what. All the menace of a damp cream biscuit. Anthony Ainley with cat-teeth was scarier than MIssy's wandering accents and wittering.
This two-parter was deliberately set up to be 'Genesis of the Daleks' for NuWho, but forgot everything that made 'Genesis' great: the Doctor agonising over genocide, Davros's unhinged determination, the hideous experiments he undertook to create his perfect - pitlless, emotionless, utterly dominant - race. Crying? Davros crying? That is a weakness he would never allow himself, even in the most underhanded plot. Not that Davros is a plotter, especially of such pathetic 'HA HA I TRICK U IT ARE OPPOSITE DAY' standards. Tricks and deception are not in the Dalek playbook - overwhelming force and extermination are their tools.
And don't get me started on what the Master/Missy should be like. Not an idiot in a human suit, that's for sure.
Grar.
posted by prismatic7 at 5:41 AM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm sick of whimsy and I'm sick of silly voices and I'm sick of everything the Doctor does being the machinae ex which he doth deus. Because no matter how much NuWho fans squee about how it's just like OldWho when he did the thing and the Daleks went *poof* it's not: The clever tricks were the resolution to the episode-three-or-five cliffhanger. This is the Doctor as space wizard, with Clara as the boggle-eyed exposition magnet and MIssy as the i-don't-know-fucking-what. All the menace of a damp cream biscuit. Anthony Ainley with cat-teeth was scarier than MIssy's wandering accents and wittering.
This two-parter was deliberately set up to be 'Genesis of the Daleks' for NuWho, but forgot everything that made 'Genesis' great: the Doctor agonising over genocide, Davros's unhinged determination, the hideous experiments he undertook to create his perfect - pitlless, emotionless, utterly dominant - race. Crying? Davros crying? That is a weakness he would never allow himself, even in the most underhanded plot. Not that Davros is a plotter, especially of such pathetic 'HA HA I TRICK U IT ARE OPPOSITE DAY' standards. Tricks and deception are not in the Dalek playbook - overwhelming force and extermination are their tools.
And don't get me started on what the Master/Missy should be like. Not an idiot in a human suit, that's for sure.
Grar.
posted by prismatic7 at 5:41 AM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
See, I like the whimsy and the silly voices. I'll take 11th Doctor and the Ponds in the Tardis any day of the week.
What I can't deal with is nonsense like Daleks don't die, but they decompose, so they're living guts line underground tubes that stretch through the city. I can not even
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 5:59 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
What I can't deal with is nonsense like Daleks don't die, but they decompose, so they're living guts line underground tubes that stretch through the city. I can not even
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 5:59 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
MIssy's wandering accents
I can agree with much of what you said but think this is a bit unfair, as it normally applies to stuff where the actor has missed the accent they were aiming for, often in different ways in the same show or film (eg Russell Crowe in Robin Hood). Missy basically has a Scottish accent, which is Gomez' own, but then adopts others specific to the script, for 'comedy value'.
posted by biffa at 7:08 AM on September 28, 2015
I can agree with much of what you said but think this is a bit unfair, as it normally applies to stuff where the actor has missed the accent they were aiming for, often in different ways in the same show or film (eg Russell Crowe in Robin Hood). Missy basically has a Scottish accent, which is Gomez' own, but then adopts others specific to the script, for 'comedy value'.
posted by biffa at 7:08 AM on September 28, 2015
Can I also dissent from most fans to say how much I hate Missy's character? She has a level of mean-spiritedness that feels really out of place on this show to me. That moment on the last episode, when she killed a guy and joked about how she saw that he had a ring and some baby's milk on his clothes? COME ON. Several degrees too dark for modern Doctor Who.
I'm not sure I think it's at all inconsistent with the level of mean that Simm deployed on a regular basis, unless you mean this was identifying a death in an individual way versus casually exterminating dozens. Which I guess I can see as being something someone might dislike but for me it is a little too close to comedic truths about a serial killer being awful but a genocidal leader being well-organized. The Master cares nothing for individual humans - "you're the puppy" - and casually killing them has gone on through NuWho every time he's shown up.
posted by phearlez at 7:58 AM on September 28, 2015
I'm not sure I think it's at all inconsistent with the level of mean that Simm deployed on a regular basis, unless you mean this was identifying a death in an individual way versus casually exterminating dozens. Which I guess I can see as being something someone might dislike but for me it is a little too close to comedic truths about a serial killer being awful but a genocidal leader being well-organized. The Master cares nothing for individual humans - "you're the puppy" - and casually killing them has gone on through NuWho every time he's shown up.
posted by phearlez at 7:58 AM on September 28, 2015
if he had the opportunity to save or kill Davros, he could also take him on as a companion fr a bit
I was really hoping this was where we were going, The Doctor with The Master, Davros and, as the season progresses, even more old enemies as companions. Really go all out with the compassion angle and have him try to rehabilitate all of them. There's precedent in Strax, who would be perfect as a kind of warden keeping the others in line...
Also, did we get any resolution to the hybrid thing? I feel like that's coming back and may be related to Missy's clever idea.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:05 AM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was really hoping this was where we were going, The Doctor with The Master, Davros and, as the season progresses, even more old enemies as companions. Really go all out with the compassion angle and have him try to rehabilitate all of them. There's precedent in Strax, who would be perfect as a kind of warden keeping the others in line...
Also, did we get any resolution to the hybrid thing? I feel like that's coming back and may be related to Missy's clever idea.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:05 AM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I liked this episode except for Clara's sudden lack of awareness or agency - she'll stand up to the Doctor but is happy to fall into whatever trap Missy sets up. Someone opined that she must've bumped her head falling off the ledge. It would be fun if this is a set up to make Clara a pawn of Missy a la Turlough and the Black Guardian, but I don't see that happening.
Clara in the Dalek (again!) was fun, except she was I guess too concussed to figure out a more artful way of telling the Doctor who she was.. Missy's American accent was terrible. Was great to see the Special Weapons Dalek make another appearance. Also, I love that the Dalek Supreme has a little platform.
The Hybrid makes me think of the "Human Dalek" which was an awful plotline best forgotten.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 8:49 AM on September 28, 2015
Clara in the Dalek (again!) was fun, except she was I guess too concussed to figure out a more artful way of telling the Doctor who she was.. Missy's American accent was terrible. Was great to see the Special Weapons Dalek make another appearance. Also, I love that the Dalek Supreme has a little platform.
The Hybrid makes me think of the "Human Dalek" which was an awful plotline best forgotten.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 8:49 AM on September 28, 2015
I feel like we're definitely seeing Gallifrey this season, the Doctor let its continued existence slip to Davros and he should probably do something with that information - although, if the Doctor knew all along what Davros' game was, why mention that? Good idea to let the guys who nearly destroyed Gallifrey remain blissfully unaware of its survival.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:58 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 8:58 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Doctor with The Master, Davros and, as the season progresses, even more old enemies as companions. Really go all out with the compassion angle and have him try to rehabilitate all of them. There's precedent in Strax, who would be perfect as a kind of warden keeping the others in line...
Missy and Strax could put on a fantastic Punch & Judy show
posted by nathan_teske at 9:17 AM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Missy and Strax could put on a fantastic Punch & Judy show
posted by nathan_teske at 9:17 AM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
rikschell I think you hit it squarely on the head.
I have a love / hate relationship with Nu Who. I stick with it because I've been consuming this fictional universe for... um... a long time. Its an old friend which I do feel possessive about at times. But you're right, as much as I absolutely loathed so much of the RTD era, I'm thankful that the show is still on because the show runners are not pandering to me & my peculiar tastes. Again there's loads that irritate me about the different show runners but it mostly works for me and especially if I remind myself it is just a show.
In Capaldi's run as the Doctor I've finally found a doctor who isn't some flavour of Poochiefied "cool" that I can gladly weather lame stories. So yeah the first two episodes of this season I enjoyed well enough. I found the third act of this episode kind of slapdash but I find every denouement of Nu Who kind of slap dash.
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:22 PM on September 28, 2015
I have a love / hate relationship with Nu Who. I stick with it because I've been consuming this fictional universe for... um... a long time. Its an old friend which I do feel possessive about at times. But you're right, as much as I absolutely loathed so much of the RTD era, I'm thankful that the show is still on because the show runners are not pandering to me & my peculiar tastes. Again there's loads that irritate me about the different show runners but it mostly works for me and especially if I remind myself it is just a show.
In Capaldi's run as the Doctor I've finally found a doctor who isn't some flavour of Poochiefied "cool" that I can gladly weather lame stories. So yeah the first two episodes of this season I enjoyed well enough. I found the third act of this episode kind of slapdash but I find every denouement of Nu Who kind of slap dash.
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:22 PM on September 28, 2015
Can I also dissent from most fans to say how much I hate Missy's character? She has a level of mean-spiritedness that feels really out of place on this show to me.
The Master is the person whose favorite weapon crushed people into doll figures. If anything, her casual murders were not bizarrely cruel enough.
Overall, the episode felt like a fanfic that couldn't stick the landing. A lot of stuff designed to make fans cheer, ideas that seemed good to the writer, and an ending that really didn't make much sense.
posted by happyroach at 12:26 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Master is the person whose favorite weapon crushed people into doll figures. If anything, her casual murders were not bizarrely cruel enough.
Overall, the episode felt like a fanfic that couldn't stick the landing. A lot of stuff designed to make fans cheer, ideas that seemed good to the writer, and an ending that really didn't make much sense.
posted by happyroach at 12:26 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
In Capaldi's run as the Doctor I've finally found a doctor who isn't some flavour of Poochiefied "cool"
To be fair, he does now have sunglasses... TO THE EXTREME!
posted by speicus at 6:15 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
To be fair, he does now have sunglasses... TO THE EXTREME!
posted by speicus at 6:15 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
To be fair, he does now have sunglasses... TO THE EXTREME!
Whenever the Doctor's not around, the other characters should be all, "Where's the Doctor?" Also, he should be louder, angrier, and... have access to a time machine...
Suddenly, I'm uncertain how to take this comparison.
posted by mordax at 8:11 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
Whenever the Doctor's not around, the other characters should be all, "Where's the Doctor?" Also, he should be louder, angrier, and... have access to a time machine...
Suddenly, I'm uncertain how to take this comparison.
posted by mordax at 8:11 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
For a fun game to play at home, see how many episodes of Doctor Who you think happyroach's comment is apposite for!
posted by Grimgrin at 8:47 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Grimgrin at 8:47 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Grim grin, you could make a decent argument that said description is valid since Hartnell's second season.
posted by rikschell at 4:41 AM on September 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 4:41 AM on September 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
rikschell: Further, even. Like when the spring in the Fast Return Switch was broken.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 10:00 AM on September 29, 2015
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 10:00 AM on September 29, 2015
Davros knows damn well why the Doctor ran - he had the Hand of Omega. You'd think Davros would remember the first time the Doctor destroyed Skaro...
posted by charred husk at 11:48 AM on September 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by charred husk at 11:48 AM on September 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Doctor didn't run because he had the Hand of Omega, he just had the Hand of Omega when he ran.
Every true fan knows *adjust glasses* he ran because he was smuggling the President's daughter away.
Because he was The Other.
And.... something Timewyrm and stuff.
posted by Mezentian at 7:43 AM on October 2, 2015
Every true fan knows *adjust glasses* he ran because he was smuggling the President's daughter away.
Because he was The Other.
And.... something Timewyrm and stuff.
posted by Mezentian at 7:43 AM on October 2, 2015
I guess the screwdriver...
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■ (THESE ARE SONIC NOW)
(⌐■_■)
got retooled.
I just have to say, I've been seeing this damn thing on Metafilter for like 3 years now and today is the first time I've realized that it isn't a snowman holding a gun.
posted by marginaliana at 10:01 AM on October 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■ (THESE ARE SONIC NOW)
(⌐■_■)
got retooled.
I just have to say, I've been seeing this damn thing on Metafilter for like 3 years now and today is the first time I've realized that it isn't a snowman holding a gun.
posted by marginaliana at 10:01 AM on October 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah, until they began talking hybrids (please no) my Cartmel Masterplan sense began tingling.
Wait, why would the Doctor run from potential Dalek/Timelord hybrids if he didn't even know who the Daleks were yet?
posted by charred husk at 10:19 AM on October 2, 2015
Wait, why would the Doctor run from potential Dalek/Timelord hybrids if he didn't even know who the Daleks were yet?
posted by charred husk at 10:19 AM on October 2, 2015
Wait, why would the Doctor run from potential Dalek/Timelord hybrids if he didn't even know who the Daleks were yet?
Ugh.
*sigh*
Timey-Whimy.
posted by Mezentian at 10:24 AM on October 2, 2015
Ugh.
*sigh*
Timey-Whimy.
posted by Mezentian at 10:24 AM on October 2, 2015
I bet you're still wondering where the Doctor got that cup of tea from too!
posted by Mezentian at 10:25 AM on October 2, 2015
posted by Mezentian at 10:25 AM on October 2, 2015
I have no problem with the existence of gripewatch threads but it's just not my thing when it comes to Doctor WhoIt's always been like this with Doctor Who. Armies of people saying it's lame and rubbish and yet people still love it. The only difference now is some of the haters seem to think there was a mythical time when it wasn't the case.
In fact I think the only thing which is "canon" is the idea that you can love what you love and balls to everyone who says you shouldn't.
posted by fullerine at 5:26 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's how you get nerd status among who fans, by hating popular episodes. The more obscure your favourite episode is, and the more you dislike the popular ones the higher your cred. The ultimate doctor who fans think that every episode is just the worst, with the exception possibly of shada.
But will still defend them all to death against non who fans.
(I only like the unpublished scripts of cancelled adventures of peri audio plays...)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:20 AM on October 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
But will still defend them all to death against non who fans.
(I only like the unpublished scripts of cancelled adventures of peri audio plays...)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:20 AM on October 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
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posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:21 PM on September 26, 2015