Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015)
December 16, 2015 7:18 PM - Subscribe

A continuation of the saga created by George Lucas and set thirty years after Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983).
posted by EndsOfInvention (3100 comments total) 79 users marked this as a favorite

I was too chicken to do this myself!

So much to discuss in time, but most importantly: this really *is* a star wars movie in a way the prequels never were. It's a ticket back into that universe. It looks, sounds and feels like star wars. And on top of that it's a great film, too. I don't know if it is truly a wonderful film, but watching it was truly a wonderful time.
posted by ominous_paws at 7:21 PM on December 16, 2015 [52 favorites]

Just some jumbled thoughts before I go to bed (it's 3am!).

- Really fun. And funny! Only minor annoying goofiness.
- I like that they didn't just have Young Luke, Young Han, Young Vader, Young Leia, etc; they made new characters with their own personalities and motivations. Kylo Ren is very much not just another Vader - he's full of anger, but still young, raw, and untrained. Rey is so fucking badass - her reactions to Finn trying to help her escape are awesome. Finn is similar to Han - not in it for the cause to begin with, but this time wanting to flee instead of collect his pay.
- Who is Snoke??
- The callbacks to the originals weren't too heavy-handed, and they had plenty of new material (planet, characters, spacecraft) to balance it out.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:24 PM on December 16, 2015 [9 favorites]

- I love love LOVE the way Rey flew the Falcon on Jakku. Smashing it off the ground, hand-break turning, and that manoeuvre where she turns the engines off. So cool.
- I feel like Captain Phasma wouldn't have lowered the shields on Starkiller Base like that, but if that means she survives for another film that's OK.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:29 PM on December 16, 2015 [9 favorites]

- OK final thought, the Republic was secretly funding the Resistance because, I presume, they couldn't sanction all-out war with the First Order. Are the Resistance the Mujahideen fighting the First Order Soviets with their CIA-funded X-wings? Except the USA just got wiped out.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:32 PM on December 16, 2015 [6 favorites]

I'm in the minority on the internet unfortunately. I want the spoilers. I won't be able to see this thing for at least a few more days and dammit I just want to know things. I want to know the full story. I want to know where the hell Luke is. I want to know all of it. Now. But instead there will only be waiting and decoding people's carefully worded spoiler-free reactions.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:42 PM on December 16, 2015 [4 favorites]

- Who is Snoke??

Darth Jar Jar
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:22 PM on December 16, 2015 [21 favorites]

We have just returned from seeing it here in Melbourne. Our joint assessment: flawed, but a worthy successor to the equally flawed first trilogy (IV-V-VI).

Some points:

- BB8 - just frickin' annoying after a while. Such a bad design.

- That broadsword light-sabre.

- Stopping a blaster bolt in mid-air using the Force? Really?

Against that, what the others said. There was one oh-no moment when I thought their kick-ass female lead was going to become just another helpless-female-who-needs-rescue, but they turned that meme. In fact a lot of the best stuff in this movie riffs off the first trilogy by turning things on their head. Kudos for that.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 10:35 PM on December 16, 2015 [1 favorite]

So... I've probably left it too late to get tickets for this this weekend, right?
posted by Happy Dave at 11:06 PM on December 16, 2015

wabbitwax - there's a Wikipedia plot summary if you want spoilers.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 11:47 PM on December 16, 2015

Stopping a blaster bolt in mid-air using the Force? Really?

Haven't seen it yet, so I may be thinking of something else, but Darth Vader does this in Empire, when Han shoots at him during the ambush on Cloud City. So it's been established as something a Force sensitive can do.
posted by AdamCSnider at 12:05 AM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

I really enjoyed it. But what a terrible ending.
posted by gnuhavenpier at 12:09 AM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

As a counterpoint, I thought the held blaster bolt was *extremely fucking cool*

And enjoyed the ending.
posted by ominous_paws at 12:20 AM on December 17, 2015 [54 favorites]

Seconding that freezing the blaster bolt was badass. Vader deflected them with his hands, and Yoda manipulated force lightning, so it's basically those two tricks combined.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:24 AM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]

I saw it yesterday with my 11yo daughter, who I've nurtured on the descpecialized editions.

I'm very happy with how this turned out. I feel like I was back in the odd, grimy, run-down Star Wars universe. I don't know if the yet-another-wonder-weapon plot was the greatest ever, but I think it nicely sets the table for the next movie. The Republic is now practically decapitated and the Resistance will probably have their work cut out for them to stop the galaxy from falling under the First Order.

I think they showed admirable restraint in not over-using the old cast, but letting the new generation take centre stage. And such good actors! I only know John Boyega from before, but great work from all of them.
posted by Harald74 at 1:02 AM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

Re: the ending: I thought it works nicely as a Star Wars inter-triology type ending. The Republic is in disarray, one protagonist is hospitalized and another is on a quest for Jedi training. I'll grant that it's not the greatest ending ever, but it should work.
posted by Harald74 at 1:17 AM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

And can I just add that I'm very happy that Episode VII passses the Bechdel test?
posted by Harald74 at 1:39 AM on December 17, 2015 [72 favorites]

Harrison Ford got his wish!
posted by h00py at 1:53 AM on December 17, 2015 [41 favorites]

My husband is looking at going to see this tomorrow. Any thoughts on whether the 3d is worth it?
posted by poxandplague at 2:00 AM on December 17, 2015

Just saw it tonight and loved it!

My husband and I argued over Rey's parentage. He thinks she's Kylo Ren's twin - because Han and Leia had twins in the EU - but I thought it was telegraphed that she's somehow Luke's kid. I mean, all EU stuff is null and void, right?
posted by web-goddess at 2:45 AM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]

Kylo Ren's real name is Ben which they took from the EU, plus Jacen turns to the dark side in the EU, so they're definitely taking some inspiration.

But yeah - initially I thought she was Ben's twin, left on Jakku to save her from the same fate as her brother, but the fact that Han and Leia lament the loss of their son repeatedly but make no mention of a daughter puts paid to that I think. If you'd abandoned your daughter as well as losing your son to the dark side that would come up.
Luke's daughter seems more plausible - I could see him being so scared of his daughter falling to the dark side he tried to keep her from any possibility of learning to use the force. After all, growing up an orphan on a desert planet never did him any harm, right? If that's the case though, who's the mother?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:01 AM on December 17, 2015 [22 favorites]

My tentative judgement is that this is the third best star wars movie. Does a whole lot so so well, in particular the section from when we meet Rey until we meet Han is pretty much perfect.

But the plot is stupid stupids at points, Han taking them into the bar is just baffling and the macguffin is almost as terrible as the redmatter from Abrams Star Trek.

Also, Snoke (dumb name, it sounds like a cuddly toy puppet) is obviously the emperor right? Deformed, bruised, shredded, warped by the force as he fell?
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 3:49 AM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]

Eeeeeee I loved it!

Really enjoyed the surprises - particularly that Rey is the up and coming Jedi rather than Finn, as the teasers had suggested. Some of those shots - the TIE fighters in front of the sun, the downed star destroyers on Jakku - were amazing and I want them all framed in my house. Threepio popping up between Han and Leia in their reunion cracked me up. The Falcon being called garbage. The nod to the EU but going its own direction. And I thought as a character Kylo Ren did a better job of acting like an angry teenager with too much power than Hayden Christianson's Anakin ever did.

A few annoyances... How/why did Artoo suddenly have the whole map? Seriously where DID bartender lady get that lightsaber? And why is there a Resistance as well as a Republic? I mean, I don't want the detailed politics of the prequels, but I would like to understand what that relationship was meant to be.

I'm guessing Rey is Luke's daughter, and her mother is of course Mara Jade, Luke's one true love.
posted by olinerd at 4:27 AM on December 17, 2015 [24 favorites]

Saw this in Holland yesterday and I was delighted. It is a wall to wall schlock fest but so was episode 4, which this is essentially a reimagining of.

I loved BB-8, great puppet.

I thought some of the call-backs were a bit heavy, but people less insanely familiar with the series maybe wouldn't find it so.

Finn Rey and Poe have such fantastic chemistry. I love that Finn is a talented fighter with a good heart but not brave or widely skilled. Rey is probably the beat female character in the series and the best new character since Yoda was introduced. Poe while not on screen a ton is tons of fun.

I've seen the movie twice and I still don't know what I think about Kylo. This theme of 60/40 dark/light is new territory. We only know Vader as whiny Anakin then baddass old Tyrant. Having a character who is that uncomfortable with himself is sort of hard to watch, but I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

Also he must have been a late life baby for Han and Lea. Maybe that's less of a thing in star wars?
posted by French Fry at 4:51 AM on December 17, 2015 [7 favorites]

I love that he's so unsure. It's the dark side and good side of the Force, always at battle. I also didn't mind the fact that there was no specific ending. There's Luke, eyes red-rimmed and confronted with his past (and his future).
posted by h00py at 4:59 AM on December 17, 2015

And why is there a Resistance as well as a Republic?

I got the impression that the Republic has its own fleet/military but can't risk open war with the First Order (maybe they are not strong enough or there's not political will), so they (not so) secretly fund the Resistance who operate independently and wage guerilla warfare (which Leia et al obviously have a lot of experience with).

her mother is of course Mara Jade, Luke's one true love.

If they take ONE character from the EU, she would be the coolest.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:17 AM on December 17, 2015 [18 favorites]

Poxandplague I would definitely recommend 2d. I saw it in 2d and Imax 3d and the bright colors , vivid still and motion blur in action of 2d just felt more "right"
posted by French Fry at 5:26 AM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]

I think I have to look forward being a minority in this one. It was too committed in being fanservicey at the expense of the story which turned out flat. There's basically nothing new but riffing, even if you can defend it on the grounds of thematic resonance. And I say this enjoying so many parts of it! Everything mentioned so far - EVERYTHING. But meh, in the end. But I adored everyone! This is my curse with an Abrams movie, I guess.

I've never enjoyed myself so skeptically, basically.
posted by cendawanita at 6:17 AM on December 17, 2015 [33 favorites]

Also, what is the deal (or rather the non-deal) with Capt Phasma? That was quick. Is she the new Boba Fett?
posted by cendawanita at 6:18 AM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]

Also, Snoke (dumb name, it sounds like a cuddly toy puppet) is obviously the emperor right? Deformed, bruised, shredded, warped by the force as he fell?

I'm still going with Darth Plagueis. Snoke's theme of droning male voices is almost the same as Plagueis' from Revenge of the Sith.

You need another Sith lord, and Plagueis is the only other one named that's canon. Also, living forever is kinda his thing.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:20 AM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]

I've seen the movie twice and I still don't know what I think about Kylo. This theme of 60/40 dark/light is new territory. We only know Vader as whiny Anakin then baddass old Tyrant. Having a character who is that uncomfortable with himself is sort of hard to watch, but I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

It's a good thing as it allows for a plausible redemption OR complete fall.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:21 AM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]

I agree that it is a good thing from a story perspective, but adam driver is fucking going for it as an awkward horrible creepy rage filled man child.

I found him hard to watch. Which is awesome sometimes but maybe isn't working for me here. I don't know, maybe third times a charm for me and kylo.
posted by French Fry at 6:28 AM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

I liked the raw emotion, the tantrums, the wavering - made him feel like a more more different villain to Vader (who in A New Hope has had 18-odd years to gain control of his emotions), with a much more uncertain future.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:36 AM on December 17, 2015 [19 favorites]

I just came out from the viewing floating on a tiny cloud of happiness. They didn't ruin it! I had little kids when Phantom Menace came out and was super psyched about watching them discover the Star Wars universe in their childhood afresh with 'their' trilogy, and the plunge from the joy of seeing the credits scroll with the opening music to walking out of that movie thinking wtf with my kids going "eh" - so this time round, with one last kid to introduce (but given it opens with the village slaughter scene we may wait a while to let her watch it), I saw it alone first.

Rey is so good. She's just so good and her face is so expressive and she moves and fights and thinks - she's the hero of the movie it turns out.

The scene with Kylo Ren/Ben was such a rape-analogue that watching it, I could almost hear the tapping of ten thousand keyboards starting the Rey/Kylo darkside pairing, but then when she just went "I won't give it to you" - such a nice throwback to Leia and Poe in captivity too.

I have a hundred questions. How does the brainwashing for stormtroopers work? They must have lost the cloning techniques if they have to snatch children and brainwash them or are these new crack troops in a different method? How did Finn break free of the control - because in that scene he does break free somehow, he goes from skilled smooth obedience to stumbling like a drunk guy sobering.

Who is Rey's mother and the voice of the person holding onto her in that flashback - that's one of the Darths or Captain Phasma? Why is the melted-gooey Emperor an enormous hologram? What the hell is with the Leni Riefenstahl scale of everything in the dark side? Did Han get Chewie in the divorce? Is that why Chewie cold shoulders Leia right after they land after Han's death? So Leia's force abilities are that she can sense people dying, more intensely the more she loves them? That's like the worst force ability ever.

I have more, but I have to a) go stalk archiveofourown and discover what the fandom pairing names will hilariously be for the inevitable Finn/Rey/Poe that will engulf everything and b) watch the film another five or six times in the cinema.

It was Star Wars. Proper Star Wars with stupid bits and weird bits and dodgy creatures and still enough new things - they are such small creatures in huge strange worlds and they hold each other's hands rather than run.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:05 AM on December 17, 2015 [33 favorites]

I really liked the physical props and sets in the film. Everything felt real and grounded in the same universe as the first three films. The props looked like the could have been built in the 70s. This really helped sell the continuity to me.

This was a film made by people who liked the way the original films looked and who wanted to continue the aesthetic. The ships, the guns, the clothes. It all looked right.

With the prequels the feeling was that they thought they could do it better by making it newer and more modern. A degree of technological collapse fits with the end of the republic but it just never felt like there was continuity. Lucas really felt that he could remake the original 3 with modern tools and make them better. This film said that the original 3 looked good and their age gave them a style and feel that was worth keeping and carrying forward. It really worked.

Also - strong female characters. As a dad who just watched all 6 with his 2 daughters this movie is in stark contrast to the prequels. The sausagefest jedi council was just plain irritating. Rey is a character I am happily throw money at. Well played Disney. Well played.

V, VII, IV, III, VI, II, I
posted by samworm at 8:18 AM on December 17, 2015 [17 favorites]

- Who is Snoke??

Darth Jar Jar

A New NOPE
posted by wabbittwax at 9:16 AM on December 17, 2015 [39 favorites]

Not reading anything here as I haven't seen this movie yet, but this is amusing me:

Star Wars newb live tweeting Star Wars marathon (From Ep I-VII).

Looks like she's through Ep IV now.
posted by nubs at 11:26 AM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

Haven't seen it and am half-skimming this thread in fear of spoilers. So far, I don't see much to convince me this isn't the soulless corporate extruded movie product this review makes it out to be http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-pre-fab-star-wars-the-force-awakens

But, perhaps it's perfectly focus grouped committee designed movie product that will tap right into my inner 7-year-old's memories. The genius is, we all have to go see it just to find out..
posted by joeyh at 11:58 AM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

I don't think that article was necessarily saying it was a soulless corporate movie product just that Abrams is several steps away from the joyful, experimental Lucas when the first film was made. But what do you expect 7 films into a series? I've been thinking it's a gateway of familiarity for the rest of the new trilogy to divert from and as such needed to be very carefully judged as not veering too far from the original blueprint.

It did a lot of things really well - that made it feel like a more contemporary film - stuff like not failing the Bechdel test.

As someone who's not a mega fan or anything I enjoyed it because/despite of its corniness.
posted by pmcp at 12:23 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]

I could done without it totally aping the first film so much, and the score was only really memorable when if was referencing past glories - but apart from that, it was great.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:53 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

In a way, I think this film echoes the entire original trilogy - not just Star Wars. And while that felt a little fan-servicey, I liked the echoes and the new takes and the new world building and all the awesome new characters. And I can't wait to see what happens next.
posted by crossoverman at 1:06 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

Idly wondering whether Daniel Craig was the voice of the stormtrooper Rey manipulated into letting her go.
posted by John Shaft at 1:16 PM on December 17, 2015 [7 favorites]

I cried. Seat felt like it was shaking.
posted by popcassady at 1:19 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

I am off to look at it in a couple of hours; in a ritualistic move, I have rewatched all six of the previous films this week. I was puzzled while listening to the commentary track on TESB who director Irvin Kershner's voice reminded me of. At about twenty minutes in it came to me, and I could not shake it: he sounds remarkably like Ray Romano.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:25 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]

I can understand people who can criticize the film saying "It's just imitating the first film! It offers nothing but nostalgia!" because in that respect it cannot stand alone as a film. Fine. But Star Wars fans are nothing if not nostalgic. Honestly, why do we insist on Despecialized Editions taking away every piece of modernizing modification to watch and re-watch a thousand times a movie with mediocre writing, occasionally lame acting, and effects that while impressive for their time can still look a little cheesy now and again? Because we fell in love with the characters and the world and the simple but effective "good vs evil" narrative. The prequels didn't do this - there was no good vs evil, no suspense about the outcome, no chance for a last-minute turn to good, there was "how can we make Anakin's turn to the dark side take three movies and somehow shoehorn the birth of Luke and Leia in there?" The characters (some of them, anyway) were there, younger, but because you generally knew how they'd end up there wasn't much time spent on developing them or surprising us with what they can do. The "world" was there, but with too much focus on politics. I think The Force Awakens brought back what people loved just right. And honestly, the beginning of 2 out of 3 trilogies already began with "orphan with technical proclivities living on desert planet ends up leaving and discovering he/she can use the Force" and "beloved mentor type person meets his end" - so why stop now? I like the feeling of "knowing" what's going to happen -- roughly what the story arc will be -- yet not knowing what the twists and details and everything will be. It's exhilarating. And it was nice to feel exhilarated by a Star Wars movie again, rather than plodding through political intrigue and midichlorians.

That said, the criticism I've read that I do agree with is the lack of epic lightsaber or space battles. This one seemed to focus a lot on blaster fighting. Which is fine, but gunfights are hardly special in filmmaking.
posted by olinerd at 1:37 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

Going tonight at 8 pm.

Can someone tell me what (if anything) they did to replace/evoke the 20th c Fox fanfare at the start? Just Disney logo and cold open to the crawl?

For reasons, the Fox Fanfare/Williams Theme combo makes me burst into tears every time I hear it (the was an unexpcted finding when they re-released the original in theaters and it has held true ever since) and I need to be ready if that's going to happen (so as not to freak out my kid).
posted by anastasiav at 1:39 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

Can someone tell me what (if anything) they did to replace/evoke the 20th c Fox fanfare at the start?

Everyone gets a Kazoo at the door.
posted by popcassady at 1:40 PM on December 17, 2015 [35 favorites]

No Fox fanfare. Just the Lucasfilm logo, no Disney logo surprisingly.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:45 PM on December 17, 2015

No Fox fanfare. Just the Lucasfilm logo, no Disney logo surprisingly.

I think it was: title / certificate card, Lucasfilm, 'A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...', STAR WARS, crawl

Bad Robot at the end of the titles and lucasfilm again
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:42 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

So was that Daniel Craig, then?

(Edit: see that's already been asked up thread)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:43 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

I got to see this at a special BAFTA screening tonight, with a cast and crew Q&A! JJ, Harrison Ford, Boyega, Ridley, Kathleen Kennedy, Kasdan, Neal Scanlan all in attendance. Definitely an experience. Some highlights:

- Boyega is the real deal. Super-funny, charismatic, able to make the entire crew crack up. Even made the notoriously grumpy Harrison Ford grin on a few occasions.

- Ridley was rather quieter; she realised she was more of the 'straight woman' to Boyega's fish-out-of-water. But she was very pleased by how so many girls could see themselves in her now.

- Ford, when asked what he thought of his character's arc through the movies, replied, "What's an arc?" and then muttered (good-naturedly) about the lack of children in the audience. He said that he wanted to be killed off in Empire because he felt that his journey as a skeptic and ironic audience-avatar was complete, and that he had served his purpose. I think in Force Awakens, he felt he served a purpose to the story that didn't require just talking about plot.

- Kasdan and JJ talked about how they wrote this movie fairly quickly, then continued writing it over two years. Kasdan seemed like a nice guy - he was originally going to write the Han Solo standalone movie but got brought in to take over from Michael Arndt. His favourite moment from the entire series of Star Wars movies was the bit in New Hope where Han Solo is bullshitting over the radio and ends up shooting the receiver; his most important goal was reproducing that feeling of "goofy fun" in Force Awakens, and he praised Boyega and Ridley for just being "goofy and fun" on set.

- JJ was at pains to praise Neal Scanlan's practical creature work. It was very important to him that the movie felt tactile; when he was 10, he knew a bit about how movies were made, but he just couldn't figure out how they did the effects in New Hope; so that's what he wanted to do in Force Awakens.

All in all, a great screening. BAFTA members are a notoriously hard-to-impress bunch and while they will always applaud after a movie out of respect, I have never heard applause during a movie - until the moment when Harrison Ford stepped into frame. Clearly there is joy yet in the stony hearts of British filmmakers!
posted by adrianhon at 2:53 PM on December 17, 2015 [96 favorites]

As for my own feelings, the movie was a lot of fun but it dragged badly during the bar bit. Despite the efforts of Neal Scanlan, I found the close-up CG of Snoke and the bar owner to be distractingly bad. Boyega was awesome, Ridley rather plain, but maybe that's the writing.

Surprised no-one's mentioned the bit where Han and Leia meet up for the first time on screen! I saw many people tear up (not embarrassed to say that I did, as well!). Star Wars has a lot of baggage to carry around, and a lot of the time it hinders rather than helps - but in this case, the weight of their relationship is what made that moment so meaningful.
posted by adrianhon at 2:59 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]

I seem to share the general in favor consensus here. Some misc. comments:

- All the new actors are wonderful, and the chemistry between Ridley/Boyega and Boyega/Isaac is outstanding. This was something I was worried about -- aside from the many failings of the prequels a big issue I had was that the Obi-Wan/Anakin/Padme power trio didn't have a fraction of Luke/Leia/Han's chemistry (and over the course of three films, Obi-Wan and Padme barely interacted and didn't seem to have any kind of special relationship). But you can absolutely believe in Poe and Finn and then Finn and Rey's instant synergy.

I did find it strange that Poe seemed set up to be the third leg and then disappeared for most of the movie, and never even interacted with Rey; it's possible this time the power trio will be a power duo and Poe will be more of a Lando/Chewie-tier player.

- I loved Maz Kanata, but I also feel ambivalent that the first major speaking role for a woman of color in the series is of course a CGI alien -- Boyega's presence notwithstanding, I'm pretty sick of the "major PoC character is an alien/behind a mask" trope -- maybe just because it's so prevalent in superhero stories, but one of the type examples is James Earl Jones' Vader, so.

- Of all the plot points or characters to draw as inspiration from the EU, "even more Death Star-y Death Star" and "Solo-Organa child gone dark" would not have been my picks. That being said I was braced to dislike Kylo Ren and found myself intrigued. While he and Anakin are very different people I think Abrams and Kasdan succeed with Ren at something Lucas tried to do with prequel Anakin and failed: that is, subvert the idea of Darth Vader as this badass villain whom you love to hate because the more evil he is the cooler he gets. Prequel Anakin lost his pathos in becoming pathetic, but Ren becomes much more interesting as soon as he takes off his mask.

- Given that Luke/Leia/Han were the epitome of found family joined through surviving adversity together, I'm sad that a family tragedy pushed them apart, but I'll reserve final judgment on that until we hear Luke's side of the story.

- Rey's flute-y leitmotif is charming.

- My inner 6-year-old: X-Wing! X-Wings X-Wings X-Wings. Black X-Wing.
posted by bettafish at 4:07 PM on December 17, 2015 [16 favorites]

Two questions: Are there any nods to Rebels or Clone Wars?

Secondly, everything I've seen says that Finn gets his name from Poe. Wouldn't he have had a real name before he was a trooper?
posted by drezdn at 4:19 PM on December 17, 2015

I can't answer the first because I haven't seen either. To the second, apparently these new troopers aren't clones but are taken from their families extremely young and given serial numbers instead of names.

Question of my own: were we supposed to know who that "old friend" who gave Poe the map was, or was that more of a "making the world of the story feel more expansive and complex" kind of thing?
posted by bettafish at 4:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

So browsing through the cast list, I did a bit of a double-take when I noticed that someone named Morgan Dameron played a character called "Commodore Meta".

(Google if you want to know the story. It's indeed rather meta :-)

Secondly, everything I've seen says that Finn gets his name from Poe. Wouldn't he have had a real name before he was a trooper?

Yeah, but all he remembers is his code number, FN-2187.
posted by effbot at 4:24 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

Bb8 voice consultant was ben Schwartz aka Jean ralphio from parks and rec.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:39 PM on December 17, 2015 [19 favorites]

That said, the criticism I've read that I do agree with is the lack of epic lightsaber or space battles. This one seemed to focus a lot on blaster fighting. Which is fine, but gunfights are hardly special in filmmaking.

You gotta start small so you've got somewhere to go. We've got another two movies for the wars of star.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:02 PM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]

I was very pleasantly surprised. Thankfully they didn't give JJ full control of the script, so there was a female protagonist, the right tone for most of the film and on top great score etc. Nice that star wars has a fourth film at last and new characters.

I thought Han Solo was played up a bit too much and some of his scenes made the film sag temporarily, but the Solo - Leia relationship was worth revisiting and the bridge scene was worthwhile (good work on the lighting). There was plenty of riffing on the original films, but it stood up well on its own and had more soul in it that the unfortunate attempts of the past decade. The Nuremburg rally scene (or space Hitler, as an Austrian gentleman nearby put it) could have been avoided.

In conclusion *lightsaber sound* and go see it.
posted by ersatz at 5:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

were we supposed to know who that "old friend" who gave Poe the map was

The character seems to be invented for the movie, afaict. The only connection I can find to earlier movies is that it's a minor character played by a major Ingmar Bergman collaborator, similar to Anakin's mother in Phantom Menace...

(so several orders of magnitude better actor than you have to be to fit in a Star Wars film :-)
posted by effbot at 5:35 PM on December 17, 2015

Thankfully they didn't give JJ full control of the script, so there was a female protagonist

Felicity of Felicity, Sydney of Alias and Olivia of Fringe would like to have a word.
posted by crossoverman at 5:57 PM on December 17, 2015 [59 favorites]

Well. That was a let down.

It wasn't a bad film and it does a good job of setting up the new characters. But it's also horribly plot driven, with little attention bad to the characters.

Killing off Han was ok, but it was troubling how no one really seemed to mourn him. Oh sure, they were sad for five minutes, then boom, off to find Luke.

The movie felt very meat and potatoes, with little magic. It paid its dues to the first trilogy, while neatly avoiding the god awful prequels. But the Force felt...ho hum? In the first trilogy it was deep secret, mystical power that had to be earned with a price. Here, it was just something people can suddenly start using, because...just because.

Yes, I'm old.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:37 PM on December 17, 2015 [17 favorites]

But it's also horribly plot driven, with little attention bad to the characters.

Do you think? I mean, it does move at a sort of break-neck pace, but I think there's a lot of attention paid to the characters and they all seem as clear and well drawn as you'd expect in a Space Opera.

Killing off Han was ok, but it was troubling how no one really seemed to mourn him.

I think that might be my only actual complaint, that there wasn't something more in memory of Han.

Here, it was just something people can suddenly start using, because...just because.

Well, Rey must have a high midichlorian count, right?
posted by crossoverman at 8:08 PM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]

The first third: Oh, man, this is amazing! This is going to be amazing! Fantastic messy TIE Fighter escape! Sunken Star Destroyer! Cool pilot guy! Stormtrooper defying his destiny! Scavenging! Neat ration-muffins! Cool elephant! Smuggler gangs! Entering a new world! Adventure! Why am I not making a game right now?

The second third: Huh. That's a lot of exposition. The old characters' dialogue is kind of sappy. The Death Star again?! Why is the lightsaber in an unsecured bar basement in a Zelda treasure box? Why did that Storm Trooper decide to duel with a bizarre energy staff instead of just shooting Finn at point blank?

The last third: OK. They shot the special part of the Super Duper Death Star and it blew up. In the meantime, lightsaber duel. I know that Star Wars is always the same story, but this is just a little too tightly tracked to the original. Sudden crack in the earth was bullshit.

Some things I really liked:

– "We'll just use the Force!" "Uh, the Force doesn't work like that."

- I thought at the first that the Supreme Leader was a gigantic alien. I was so excited! Then, I realized he was just using the big projection size that the Emperor used. It would have been so cool if he was fifty feet tall.

– Kylo Ren kinda sucks. He is not a Darth Vader. He is a not a very good Knight of Ren or Dark Jedi or Sith or what have you yet. I love that! He is trying so hard, though. He has lightsaber tantrums. He has a ridiculous lightsaber. When he takes off the mask, it is shocking how vulnerable-looking he is that I laughed. However, the problem is, his arc doesn't have anywhere to go other than the one we already saw for Darth Vader. It looks like he'll do a bunch of evil, then redeem himself. That's incredibly boring at this point.

- That Force mind intrusion struggle between Ren and Rey was so well-acted, and it was such a neat way for her to realize what she had.

- "My troops will storm this command center!"
posted by ignignokt at 8:13 PM on December 17, 2015 [22 favorites]

To be clear: It was fun! Just not epic.
posted by ignignokt at 8:18 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

I agree that Rey and Finn are great characters and it was awesome to see Rey come into her own. But nothing surprised me, not even Han's death. Well, I was suprised by how rote everything was. Stop building Death Stars ok?! And why did Snoke look like something from Lord of the Rings.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]

And why did Snoke look like something from Lord of the Rings.

I'm glad Andy Serkis keeps getting work, but did he have to look like Gollum?
posted by crossoverman at 8:29 PM on December 17, 2015 [24 favorites]

Thanks for the sincere answers above. I did not cry (then).

My only major issue is - how did Kylo Ren get off the planet? (Assuming he did which he must of.)

Also, why did Captain Phasma do the thing, even at gunpoint? My gut feeling is she would have fought instead of doing the thing.

Best part was watching my kid vibrate in his seat through the whole movie. He was able to pick up most of the meta-references, but was blown away at the revelation of KR's parentage, and then again when Han dies. Blown. Away. Walking out of the film, he was just glowing with glee. I'm super duper happy that he could have this experience.
posted by anastasiav at 8:38 PM on December 17, 2015 [51 favorites]

It leaned pretty hard into the running of the series' beats again, for better or worse. It was refreshing to see it commit to the "you are dropped in the middle of a situation that has not been explained fully" approach. These are the good guys, those are the bad guys... we are sure you will catch up. The lived-in aesthetic was nice after the CGI sterility of the prequels.

Still, it had a weirdly off-kilter rhythm. Poe disappears for an hour or so and then reappears without comment in an X-wing. This is like Han running off in pursuit of the storm troopers post-garbage compactor scene and then just reappearing to save Luke's ass in the trench run. Phasma is the Boba Fett here: striking costume, hidden face, three or four lines of dialogue and then forgotten.

I liked the weird meta-level of the characters being essentially Star Wars fans and asking about details of the events thirty years before. Then again, with the IV-V-VI world having seemingly forgotten about Jedi only a couple of decades after their very public overthrow, it seems the galaxy far far away does not have much in the way of history classes.

And while I am glad the clutter of the EU has been swept away, I am looking forward to learning how a lightsaber that fell down a vent in Cloud City decades ago wound up in a psychoactive box in a tavernkeeper's basement.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:12 PM on December 17, 2015 [19 favorites]

I didn't think I'd write about it as soon as I got home, but I did. There’s still plenty of weird plot holes in the movie to complain about — and, of course, call no trilogy happy until it is concluded — and the man simply doesn’t get Star Trek at a basic and fundamental level — but J.J. Abrams achieves something in a sequence of shots near the end of Star Wars: The Force Awakens that I hope I’ll never forget for the rest of my life. My daughter is three and a half right now, and she’s still piecing together the world. We’ve raised her, somewhat accidentally, without much concept of gender; it’s only recently that she’s even come to really understand that some people are boys and other people are girls. And it’s broken my heart a bit, as this process has come into focus for her, to see her recognize that nearly all the protagonists in nearly all the stories she loves are boys. She sometimes announces, as we play, that she gets to be the boy — by which she means that she gets to be the hero, the star. I’m the boy, daddy; you’re the dragon. I’m the boy, daddy; you’re the witch.

And as I watched this one particular, truly perfect scene, at the climax of The Force Awakens, I really felt like I could see the whole thing through her eyes, and imagined the moment she watches it a few months or years from now and how it might undo a bit of the toxic lessons she’s already started to learn about boys and girls. I cried. I’m crying now, just writing about it. And however else The Force Awakens is received and whatever its reputation winds up being, however badly 8 and 9 screw it all up (or don’t), Abrams has given little girls like mine a tremendous and very special gift. That bit lives forever, as far as I’m concerned.
posted by gerryblog at 9:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [135 favorites]

Just saw this, so happy.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:22 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

On the subject of Rey's mother: did no one else think Luke was standing next to a grave? I thought he was -- so strongly in fact that I thought for a second it might be Luke's grave, and the robed figure someone else -- but that seems like the way they've chosen to square the Mara Jade problem. Rey's mom will be described as a tremendous woman who was totally awesome and who everybody totally loved, but they don't need to actually cast her and the die-hard EU fans don't need to flip their shit over the fact that it isn't Mara Jade.
posted by gerryblog at 9:23 PM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]

I saw The Force Awakens tonight and I enjoyed it. However I thought they should have called this retread Episode 7: Episode 4. I hope in future episodes the First Order takes advantage of lessons learned and invests in anti-spacecraft and anti-personnel defenses for their superweapons.
posted by Rob Rockets at 9:28 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

gerryblog, when the X-wings came out, my 7 year old daughter said, "THERE'S A GIRL PILOT!!!!"
posted by artychoke at 9:51 PM on December 17, 2015 [88 favorites]

I definitely thought it was a grave, too.
posted by olinerd at 9:58 PM on December 17, 2015

My prediction is Snoke is tiny.
posted by gerryblog at 10:18 PM on December 17, 2015 [57 favorites]

Ok, I did love that this felt grimy and tangible in a way the prequels never did. And it moved along at a good clip. But I was disappointed in the "retread" aspect; too much felt completely predictable.

And I got hung up on one annoying nitpick: why on earth wouldn't they at least spraypaint BB8 and/or stick an accessory on him to make him a little less easily identifiable? I mean, if he's apparently the only orange-and-white droid like that in the sector... there's an easy solution to part of that, no? But I guess that would be bad for marketing.

Part that did genuinely crack me up: Chewie's skeptical shrug when Rey's all, "you're a war hero!" to Han. Heee. And the unintentional humor of the end in the Dramatic Stare Down between Luke and Rey (Luke remains as whiny and self-absorbed as ever, even without speaking).
posted by TwoStride at 10:40 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]

"get me out of this teacup this instant"

"Did you guys hear something? Where's Supreme Leader Skone?"

"I HEARD THAT"
posted by whitecedar at 10:42 PM on December 17, 2015 [21 favorites]

My husband and I argued over Rey's parentage. He thinks she's Kylo Ren's twin - because Han and Leia had twins in the EU - but I thought it was telegraphed that she's somehow Luke's kid. I mean, all EU stuff is null and void, right?

Seemed pretty clear she's Luke's kid. Kylo mentioned she had dreams of an ocean planet with islands.

Enjoyed it overall. Big plot moments were a bit really New Hopey, but oh well. Loved loved loved Rey and Finn and Poe.

Also, the first time Kylo took off his helmet he looked so much like a goofy mopey teenager it made me think of Spaceballs and took me out of it for a bit, but I got over it eventually.
posted by kmz at 10:47 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

It seemed so obvious to me she was Luke's kid that I was (pleasantly!) surprised the last line of the movie wasn't "Luke, I am your daughter."
posted by sonmi at 10:55 PM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]

I loved it, I am totally OK with it following many of the beats of A New Hope. After the trash of the prequels it was wonderful to watch a new Star Wars movie that felt Star Wars.

I loved the dynamic between Finn and Rey. There were many good lines throughout the movie. Finn's adoration of Rey was pretty cute: "This is what we all look like." "You got a boyfriend? A cute boyfriend?"

It had way more female and POC characters than any of the other movies, I thought that was great. And from the voices you could tell more stormtroopers than just Captain Phasma were women. I'm grinning thinking about little girls watching this movie and finding all the parts they can play--it wasn't that way for me when I was a kid. Pretty much Princess Leia Bikini or GTFO.
posted by Anonymous at 11:00 PM on December 17, 2015

So why did R2 suddenly wake up with the other half of the map (well, 90%)? Did Luke set a timer? Did he wake him up with the Force? Is Luke aware of what happened through Force-telepathy with Leia? Is he reacting to the millions of voices in the Republic crying out and being silenced? To Han? I have so many questions and only 17 more months to wait for answers.
posted by whitecedar at 11:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]

Also I dunno, I don't think it's certain Rey is Luke's kid. I would kind of prefer that, actually. Her being his kid is so on-the-nose. I prefer her being a Youngling that escaped Ren's massacre (though I don't know how that works from an age perspective--Ren looks young himself).

I assumed R2D2 woke up in response to Rey tapping into her powers. He's always seemed to have some Force connection himself, if that makes any sense. That bit was the part of the movie I liked the least. Very contrived.
posted by Anonymous at 11:02 PM on December 17, 2015

I mean, she's definitely force connected to Luke somehow, though there are definitely multiple ways for that to happen rather than just direct parentage.
posted by kmz at 11:15 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

I thought the opening sequence was so striking. First of all, it's had a very contemporary J.J. Abrams style edit, with a shakey camera and a lot of fast cuts. Then, we see *blood* for the first time in a Star Wars movie. It seemed to be trying to immediately distinguish itself as new Star Wars for the present.

The effects were improved as well. There was a menacing reality to the jagged edged lightsabers which seemed to actually illuminate the actors and sets in a way that they didn't in the old movies. I was impressed.
posted by chrchr at 11:26 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

lol so the first stormtrooper who can actually hit his targets immediately defects
posted by Jacqueline at 11:28 PM on December 17, 2015 [145 favorites]

I liked Finn from the off, the sweaty, suddenly in difficult situation thing worked well and quick team up with Poe was a good introduction. I was less keen on Rey, too bog standard push English girl.

Shame about Solo but once he went out on that bridge I didn't fancy his chances and Ford did a good job of making the character look like he didn't fancy it either but being torn by his promise to Leia.

Did the stormtroopers look a little chunkier in this? Particularly in the Nuremberg scene. Perhaps the influence of the Lego games etc!?

Overall I enjoyed it, they made a decent effort with a difficult property. I can't see me rushing back but will probably benefit from a second viewing at some point. A four star rather than a five though, in terms of excitement leaving I would say I preferred the first star trek reboot.
posted by biffa at 11:32 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

I went in with low expectations. JJ Abrams' Star Trek films went from eh to gah pretty quickly and while his TV series range from good to excellent (Alias, Felicity, and his time on LOST in particular), his movies don't really stand out to me. The only hope for me was that he was sharing a screenplay credit with Kasdan.

Turns out that this is the best Star Wars film since Empire Strikes Back. Yes, it's basically a retelling of A New Hope. Yes, it follows the hero's journey path close enough that when Han and Chewie split up to plant those bombs I muttered, "Shit," out loud because it's coming, and you know it's coming and, well, it worked. And that was when I realized that I was totally on board with this film.
posted by eyeballkid at 11:37 PM on December 17, 2015 [19 favorites]

Snoke (dumb name, it sounds like a cuddly toy puppet)

I think after 40 years, you've either made your peace with the goofy names the series uses (particularly for bad guys), or well... You should've given up?

Why is the lightsaber in an unsecured bar basement in a Zelda treasure box?

I loved this, and loved that they didn't bother expositing about it. That thing's been missing as far as anyone knows since Luke's hand got chopped off way back when. It's part of what made that last shot so wonderful for me. Not only is Luke meeting a person who seems to be telegraphed pretty heavily to be his daughter (I'm not sure one way or the other I care if she actually is, but they sure did play his theme all the time when she was doing force stuff!)....... But he's seeing this remnant of his father that no one's known the whereabouts of in a long time. It neatly echoes the fact that Ren somehow got his hands on Vader's melted helmet.

Anyway.

Was it perfect? No. But it was at least "good enough," if not a fair bit better than that (I want to see it again and let it settle in before quite deciding). It felt even stranger to leave the theater with a giant smile on my face and feeling very happy/content overall than it did to enter the place feeling mostly-contained excitement instead of grim resignation. It threads what feels like a pretty mind-boggling series of needles.

The battle to destroy the Mega Death Star felt... Rushed isn't quite the right word, but somehow weirdly small in scale? That thing is planet-size, but a few dozen TIE fighters and X-Wings were it. I can think of good reasons for this both in-movie and outside of it. There was also part of me that felt like the win felt ... a bit rushed (perhaps even too easy despite the great cost in terms of lives of both characters and randos?). There was some clunky dialogue, but that's Star Wars. The bar scene dragged a bit, sure, but didn't drag the movie down for too long before things got moving again (cue flashback to musical number in the special edition RotJ). But this really did feel paced within an inch of its life, right? 130 minutes felt like it flew by and could've had a couple extra moments to breathe without starting to feel long.

I looooooved Finn, Rey and Poe (particularly Boyega though, and I'm so happy for him as a person). If there's a clean, clear victory for this movie, it's how good a job it did establishing them. There's echoes of the original 3, but no one's a direct analogue for anyone else. On a scale of 1 to Wall-E, BB-8 is .... an 8, I guess. I thought they did a good job with the droids and didn't mind the "R2D2 will wake up when Luke decides it's time" thing. Cheesy, but it made for a nice "OH MAN" moment when it inevitably happened. There's a part of me I'm slightly confused by that really hopes BB-8's presence results in a comedic side plot where C3PO ends up jealous of BB-8 because R2 likes BB more or something.

The theater got really dusty when Han and Leia said hi for the first time in who knows how many years. And when they said bye. Han's death felt pretty natural to me. You knew he was in trouble the moment he split up from Chewie. It's an important step for Kylo's progression from this movie's sniveling, hurt, half-trained boy into something much scarier. Luke was never able to off his father and his dad was a child-murderer who blew up a planet. I loved how intimidating Ren was with the mask on but clearly a wounded, still human person at times... At least until then.

I don't have words for how much I'm looking forward to Rian Johnson going to town on one of these movies now, and I was already kind of excited for that.
posted by sparkletone at 12:12 AM on December 18, 2015 [15 favorites]

When they had the X-Wing pilots, and some of them were women, I teared up. When they had Empire fascist flunkies and some of them were women, I teared up. But man, when Rey picked up the lightsaber and outdueled Adam Sackler, I was legit crying. Sorry they spent too much time considering who their audience is and cast women and people of color and we no longer have a lily white galaxy with about three zillion men and 4 women. THIS WAS AWESOME and 7-year-old me is vindicated. No more Leia bikinis for us.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:23 AM on December 18, 2015 [146 favorites]

Even though I liked Finn more than Rey, her popping up the lightsaber was cooler.
posted by biffa at 12:58 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Just came back from seeing and loved it, little me and old me were both thrilled with the whole crew and especially Rey, and then came realization that my grade school age niece who loves Star Wars was getting to see the movie tonight too in another state, and that she will grow up with these fine characters in her life, and the force will go on.

Weirdly though, one of my favorite scenes was early in the movie when Rey trades parts for some powdered food packet things and then the next scene is her in her makeshift home (in the foot of an AT- AT, no less) and she's stirring the powdery stuff into water until it grows into some kind of spongey bread. My favorite details in the original trilogy were always scenes that involved food or cooking spaces and this new Star Wars did not disappoint on that level. Little me still thinks Aunt Beru's kitchen on the farm in A New Hope was the coolest kitchen ever (old me still agrees), and it never fails to inspire me when you see Luke eating out of what looks like a fishing tackle box after he crash lands on Dagobah in Empire.

One day I'll be cool enough to carry my lunch to work in a tackle box, one day.
posted by pandalicious at 1:08 AM on December 18, 2015 [52 favorites]

Even though I liked Finn more than Rey, her popping up the lightsaber was cooler.

I loved the way they did that. Finn hitting the button to power it up was a big applause moment in the theater I was in and it makes sense, by that point you know he can fight and you like him a lot and you want to see that awful Ren get got. But in the back of your head... You know he can't win that fight right? A force adept with some training against some clone kid with none? And Finn acquits himself well! But in the end he gets smoked.

You could feel everyone sit forward when Ren's force pull didn't work, and when she got it and turned it back on, people went nuts. Some dust or an eyelash or something got in my eye. It was a really great moment, giving you the expected thing, flipping it and then showing you how Rey's the bigger badass.
posted by sparkletone at 1:09 AM on December 18, 2015 [17 favorites]

I really loved Finn's duel with Ren. Ren's a talented teenager but not deeply experienced. Finn's only knowledge of fighting with a blade would come from whatever hand-to-hand training he got, plus any vintage visual entertainments allowed to the stormtroopers.

It's such a messy fight. Ren's thinking it will be easy and doesn't go quite as hard as he will later against Rey. Finn makes mistakes, sometimes seems to leave himself wide open, but Ren doesn't or can't take advantage right away. Perhaps because of his relative inexperience.

And there's a rough (very rough) parallel with LOTR's Samwise. Rey is obviously a chosen one, of sorts. Finn's just this ordinary guy. And yet he's the one to bear the legendary object for a time, and fights as hard as he can, and holds his own against something much stronger.
posted by honestcoyote at 1:12 AM on December 18, 2015 [51 favorites]

Poe disappears for an hour or so and then reappears without comment in an X-wing.

They turn that old boring "black dude dies first" trope on its head and everyone's just complaining that the white guy wasn't around more?
posted by effbot at 2:27 AM on December 18, 2015 [47 favorites]

Am I the only one who thinks Finn and Rey are half-siblings, likely Luke's kids? Both showed some form of being Force adepts (especially Rey, natch). But I kept seeing their relationship as strongly fraternal.

I never read anything involving Finn as showing force adeptness. Rey's was really, really, really, really blatant. I'm willing to believe that Finn was more than just "FN267whatever" because his programming failed so spectacularly the first time he met any kind of terrible circumstance...

But I think the only way one can read Finn and Rey as fraternal is if you assume they're redoing the old "sure, they seem romantic-ish at first, but actually they're related" from the original trilogy.
posted by sparkletone at 2:31 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

I was profoundly moved and didn't expect to be. I thought it would be good, but was resigned to nothing more than good. For the first twenty minutes I was worried -- exposition problems and odd timing, almost as if the film was as nervous as I was -- and then I settled into it. So beautifully shot! Arresting imagery! Good comic writing for the first time in the series, as opposed to weak comic writing redeemed by charismatic acting! Charismatic acting, anyway, that took everything about six levels higher!

I wasn't sure about Ren's backstory at first, because it's very Expanded Universe, but I reached a point where I was happy with anyplace the story wanted to go. It works because I sure as hell believe Han Solo wasn't a great father, and because Ren is so awful at being a villain. He should be a scary dude, he's powerful and unhinged, but he spends most of the film not being frightening at all because he can't even accept and inhabit his own way of being scary. His nature, his physicality, his personality are all totally unlike Vader's, and he's trying and failing to force his face into Vader's mask.

It's a film that's determined not to simply imitate its source material, but to find its own voice, so it makes sense that its villain's great sin is lacking the courage to speak for himself. It's that whole idea that the dark side of the Force is refusing to accept yourself, which is so important in Empire but was abandoned in the prequels.

I concur about the fight being messy and that being good. It takes us right back to Obi-Wan and Vader's fight, down to the fact that it's strictly personal, with only two people's souls at stake.

I did enjoy Dohmnall Gleeson, who gives better Imperial Motherfucker than I expected, and having seen Frank I expected a lot. And I've never seen a better performance from Harrison Ford -- humor, pathos, shame and glee. Han has changed so much and not changed at all. He slips into the role of Elderly Adventure Fuckup more easily than he ever slipped into the role of Cocky Bastard/Reluctant Hero, and his death is fantastically powerful.

I found it transcendent, seriously. I've been around the block with so much extruded SFF product, and I know everyone doesn't agree but I think this is the real thing -- I finally understand what it was like to see Star Wars in the theater in 1977. I haven't even mentioned Ridley and Boyega, but they were incredible too, funny as hell, instantly indelible characters. Rey in particular is obviously a hell of a thing for a lady fan like me, especially since the film masterfully evades all the Kung Fu Princess bullshit tropes and just gives us a young Jedi finding her way. By the end of the film she's Han, Luke, and Leia, and it doesn't feel forced at all. She's both worldly and naive, both powerful and in desperate need of mentoring.

The setup of the film beautifully sidesteps the prequels without decanonizing them (Luke isn't involving himself with any of that elaborate and hideous Jedi infrastructure, but trying to get back to the order's roots), and the thirty-year time jump allows for the same kind of tactics A New Hope did so well: allusion to events that make the world feel big. In the same way that all we really need to learn about Anakin Skywalker was that Obi-Wan tried and failed to to train him, all we really need to know about Kylo Ren was that neither Han, Leia, nor Luke could give him what Snoke can, and it's been incredibly damaging to all three of them. And how incredible, really, to see them so hurt and yet still trying.

(Sorry if I'm repeating anyone, I'm writing this in the middle of the night having only read bits of the thread. Almost too soon to have a conversation.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 2:34 AM on December 18, 2015 [76 favorites]

From now on, all lightsaber duels must take place in snow showers. Possibly foggy rain would be acceptable.

Ren is the best character in Star Wars. I was the first (and maybe only...) person who clapped when she jedi mind tricked that storm trooper.

As soon as Han stepped onto the bridge you knew he wasn't coming back.

We stuck around to see Lyn-Manual Miranda's name in the credits.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 3:51 AM on December 18, 2015 [7 favorites]

As soon as Han stepped onto the bridge you knew he wasn't coming back.

I honestly thought for a moment during that scene that they might redeem Ren, and holy shit, they're going to do it in episode 1 of the trilogy! Whoah! They could have a rehabilitated Sith struggling with guilt and temptation for the next 2 films! But yeah as the scene progressed I realised, oh shit, nope.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:18 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]

Late night brain revelation:

Luke's comes from the Latin for "light". His sister Leia (a princess) has a name that likely is from the Hebrew name Leah, with its origin (possibly) being Akkadian for "ruler".

The name Finn comes from a Celtic root meaning "light". The name Rey comes from a Latin root meaning "ruler".

What. The. What?
posted by grubi at 4:19 AM on December 18, 2015 [63 favorites]

AAAAAGH WEIRD COICIDENCE

Poe:
Meaning English: nickname from Old Norse pá ‘peacock’ (see Peacock)... from Middle English pe, pa, po ‘peacock’, with the later disambiguating addition of cok ‘male bird’, hence a nickname for a vain, strutting person or for a dandy.
http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=poe
http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=peacock

Dameron
French: nickname for a foppish or effeminate young man, Old French dameron, a derivative of Latin dominus ‘lord’, ‘master’ plus two diminutive endings suggestive of weakness or childishness.
http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=dameron
posted by grubi at 4:29 AM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

I loved that it was funny! One of the worst things about the prequels was how the attempts at humor did nothing but remind you of how little soul there was in those movies.

What really got to me, though, was how taken with it my unimpressed-by-a-lot 15 year old daughter was. She'd lean over and fistbump me whenever a female character did something cool. She cheered with everyone else when old friends reappeared. I'm still not sure she's recovered from what happened to Han.

I realized last night: This was the first time she's been able to see a Star Wars movie in a theater, and it's such a different experience there.

In other observations: That last scene was so JJ Abrams, he could have signed it across the horizon line.
posted by gnomeloaf at 4:33 AM on December 18, 2015 [18 favorites]

I loved that it was funny.

Yes! A few of my favorites were "Oh, you're cold?", Chewy preening at the medic who was gently praising (while patronizing) him, and BB-8 "pointing" at the component Rey was indicating.

And Han was very funny through much of it. Like the Han of old.
posted by grubi at 4:48 AM on December 18, 2015 [15 favorites]

My favorite parts were Rey coming into her own. They really did pick the best actress for the part, she's claimed the role as her own and done so wonderfully. I look forward to seeing more of her in the later films.

Trivia note: That was Daniel Craig playing the stormtrooper that Rey used mind control on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:58 AM on December 18, 2015 [15 favorites]

Oh, and, before I forget: Finn is a dark dude who emerges from white clothing towards the light, while Kylo Ren (so tempted to type Kyle Oren) is a white dude who retreats into dark clothing away from the light. Maybe this was intentional? Perhaps Finn and Ren are meant to be mirror images?

I thought it brilliant (no pun intended) that they had him say he feels the "pull of the light side", a terrific reversal of the traditional SW "tempted by the dark side".

And, because I'm obsessing, Kylo's real name of Ben Solo? Dude. Ben in Hebrew means "son" (Ben Solo, the Only Son?), or from Latin, it can mean "good"... the changing of his name is another symbolic turning from the Good? Perhaps it's all coincidence, and I'm just sleep-deprived.
posted by grubi at 4:59 AM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]

This prediction by nubs is pretty fucking close to the movie!
posted by grubi at 5:05 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

The first hour was great but, damn, that last 45 minutes with the retelling of the death star attack - but so much more lazily written and boringly filmed than the original - sunk the movie for me. So disappointing for Abrams et al to not bother creating at least *some* kind of interesting new climax. I understand why they played it safe, but the lazy stupidity of the plot at that point hurt the film in a major way. (I dont buy the "it's rhythmic mythological iterations! " junk; you can strongly reinforce a series' themes without blatantly copying tired sequences note for note.)

But the good stuff was great. Loved bb8 more than I expected to; he was always doing something interesting in the background, like the way he gingerly navigates the stairs following Rey to the hidden lightsaber. So cute. Rey is a fantastic character; every step of Finn's evolution was believable, and Boy Darth had some great moments, even if his introduction to us felt needlessly choppy and half-formed.

Carrie Fisher had almost nothing to do, sadly. No heroic moments for her at all.
posted by mediareport at 5:09 AM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]

I was thrilled with this movie. THRILLED.

I am waiting impatiently for the Finn/Poe fanfic. Someone write me one where BB8 tries to get them together.
posted by a hat out of hell at 5:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

The Empire keeps losing because they lack OSHA standards. How can you be invested in an employer who cares so little for the health and welfare of their workers? Who builds a skinny, ridiculously long walkway across a giant abyss? And then doesn't even add railings?
posted by kokaku at 5:14 AM on December 18, 2015 [79 favorites]

As soon as Han stepped onto the bridge you knew he wasn't coming back.

Yeah, I suddenly remembered the rumour that Ford wanted a quick out from the trilogy and thought his chances of surviving were limited. I was surprised by how much I didn't want him to get killed there. I guess that's why there was a lot more Ford than the other big old names. Hopefully we will get a good amount more Leia in the next one, as well as Luke.

That was Daniel Craig playing the stormtrooper that Rey used mind control on.

Ta, I hadn't even managed to spot Simon Pegg as the mean trader on Jakku despite knowing he was in it.
posted by biffa at 5:16 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Continuing the thought about the weird, choppy way we learn Kylo Ren's story, I think the moment when he kills Han isn't nearly as powerful as it should have been because we learn almost nothing about their relationship (one brief conversation between Leia and Han) before that moment. I'm OK with filling in the gaps, but to lose such an iconic character at the hand of a clearly important but barely sketched villain, with only the briefest glimpse of backstory, felt, well, a little cheap.
posted by mediareport at 5:20 AM on December 18, 2015 [13 favorites]

FN-2187.

Finn 2 (to) 187 (murder)?

Who's he going to murder?
posted by grubi at 5:26 AM on December 18, 2015 [7 favorites]

Was anyone else 100% sure that Poe was going to turn out to be a First Order sleeper agent at the very end? He disappears for half the movie after Kylo Ren says to search for him at the crash site and then shows up like nothing happened, that was DEEPLY SUSPICIOUS.
posted by sonmi at 5:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

I just realized Luke's voiceover from the first trailer wasn't in the film. Actually, he doesn't have any spoken lines in the movie, probably so they could get away with only paying him the SAG minimum. Classic Disney!
posted by Ian A.T. at 5:45 AM on December 18, 2015 [12 favorites]

I said: Am I the only one who thinks Finn and Rey are half-siblings, likely Luke's kids? Both showed some form of being Force adepts (especially Rey, natch). But I kept seeing their relationship as strongly fraternal.

Then I said: Luke's [name] comes from the Latin for "light". His sister Leia (a princess) has a name that likely is from the Hebrew name Leah, with its origin (possibly) being Akkadian for "ruler". The name Finn comes from a Celtic root meaning "light". The name Rey comes from a Latin root meaning "ruler".

Just now it hit me: "Skywalker" is a great name for a PILOT. Even if Finn doesn't turn out to be Luke's kid (though I still think it's possible), we know of three preternaturally good pilots in the saga so far: Anakin, Luke, and Rey.

(Rey of Light? I think too much.)
posted by grubi at 5:46 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I agree wholeheartedly. It's the eternal struggle between light and dark. Tugged towards the other, regardless of which side you find yourself on. Finn was indoctrinated from a young age towards the dark side but his essential pull is towards the light. Ben aka Kylo Ren was surrounded by influences on the light side and yet he is seduced by the dark. Rey was abandoned and is finding her own path. I'm sure she'll have to make a decision about which side she'll be drawn towards. I can't wait to see this movie again but I'm so looking forward to the next installment (not least because apparently Mads Mikkelsen is going to be in it).

I can see why all the callbacks to the original trilogy seem contrived to some but as far as I'm concerned, if we keep repeating history why shouldn't they?
posted by h00py at 6:06 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

Regarding those who feel that Leia had too little screen time in the movie: Might it be that she will be a key character in the next movie, as the Republic has lost its top leadership and Leia is very high up in the Resistance? She might be desperately needed to provide leadership, with her credibility and experience as royalty, a diplomat and a guerilla leader.
posted by Harald74 at 6:07 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

Am I the only one who thinks Finn and Rey are half-siblings, likely Luke's kids?

And here I was thinking that one of the reasons for the different races for those characters was to telegraph "Nope, no possibility that these scenes will be creepy incest in hindsight! Go ahead and ship them!"
posted by Jacqueline at 6:10 AM on December 18, 2015 [21 favorites]

I honestly thought for a moment during that scene that they might redeem Ren, and holy shit, they're going to do it in episode 1 of the trilogy! Whoah!

Oh, man, I would have had so much respect for these guys if they just did that and got on with something new.

Something I was hoping for here was a move away from the idealization of inherited nobility. That the most powerful and interesting among us are that way because they come from a superior royal line, like the Skywalkers. Walking out of the theater, I figured that Rey was just strong with the Force.

After reading this thread, now I think maybe she is meant to be related to the Skywalkers, and that's kind of a bummer.

Some other longshot hopes I have:

– Maybe from the examples of Luke's and Rey's success and the failure of early Force trainees like Anakin and Ben Solo, they'll change their ideas about Jedi pedagogy. Maybe you get better Jedi if you let people just grow up with normal experiences from a less exalted perspective, then teach them about the Force instead of making children swim into this really intense psychometaphysical experience at the age of 5. The traditional Padawans kind of remind me of that one kid in Searching for Bobby Fisher that didn't go to school and just trained in chess all day.

– The Force is neat, sure, but maybe some things make a bigger difference than telekinesis and lightning. It'd be awesome if Rey comes into a situation in which she's like, hey, this major problem is better solved without the Force!

– I loved those big monsters! Also, the elephant. And sunken Star Destroyers and strange vistas. I hope they bump up the exploring weird worlds and monsters and mysteries and turn down the Force/lightsaber this and that. That's the stuff that made me start imagining. More "discovering this weird little swamp guy Yoda" and less "Yoda, yet again, talking about the Force, yet again, with some important Jedi" kind of stuff.
posted by ignignokt at 6:16 AM on December 18, 2015 [24 favorites]

The first act is pretty much perfect.

But yeah, too bad Carrie Fisher didn't have more to do.

They should have given Phasma at least one meaty scene as well. So much more potential for her. How did she happen to be near the shield control on the planet? Her disabling it for them was lame.

I loved the lightsaber fight at the end but I feel like Kylo Ren could have VERY easily disabled Finn with the Force. Maybe less so with Rey since she was starting to "awaken" to it. But Finn should have been a pushover. But it was awesome when Rey overpowered him.

Kylo Ren's voice was awesome.

Overall, it made me appreciate the narrative of A New Hope more. When you try to do a little too much, holes will start to pop up.

Also: What was George Lucas talking about when he said he "It's supposed to be about family!!1one" ?? That seemed to be the core theme.
posted by starman at 6:22 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

George Lucas was saying, "I'm bitter that this movie is going to be better received than 4 of the 6 Star Wars movies I made."
posted by Elementary Penguin at 6:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]

It would probably drive a significant portion of the fanbase crazy, but I'd kind of like Rey to not be a Skywalker. If they need her to be related to someone we know, making her Ezra Bridger's daughter would be interesting (and age-wise, would probably mean he survived into and past the ANH).
posted by drezdn at 6:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]

I loved this movie for all of the reasons everyone has already mentioned. They had a very tricky needle to thread here, and I think they did about as good of a job as they possibly could have. As to criticisms about similarities to Episode IV, well, damned if they did, damned if they didn't. I think it's like when a well-established musician releases a new album. If it's in their comfortable old style people say "But it sounds just like all their old stuff! Where's the innovation, the creative spark?" But when they try something completely new people say "This experimental crap sucks! I miss their classic old sound!"

Random thoughts/impressions:

I kind of actively hope Rey isn't Luke's daughter, because I don't think it matters how or why the force is strong with her. (Her dreams about the island planet might have been visions, not memories.)
I want Han's winter coat. (And I loved when Chewie hands it to him in a "put this on, you'll catch your death!" gesture as they're heading back outside.)
I am heartbroken for Chewbacca. But I'm not sure how well an extended Han grieving scene would have worked as part of the denouement. It might have worked if Han had died before the last big action sequence, but then there would have been a tired, predictable rally the troops/"Let's do this for Han" motivational speech before the last battle. (Although I agree it would have been nice if Leia had had something more to do.)
Maybe I'm too literal, but I assumed R2D2 woke up because he heard the unusual/unexpected sound of Chewie grieving, since that was the exact sequence of events in that scene; Chewie making sad wookiee noises, R2D2 reactivating.
Kylo Ren is an interesting villain and more convincingly conflicted than teen Anakin ever was. "I'm gonna wear this mask and cloak because it makes me look and sound like a badass like Darth Vader" is such a goofy teenager thing to do that it's almost endearing. (Except for the whole dark side/killed Han Solo part.) I agree that he's a hard character to watch.
I'm curious as to how far along Kylo Ren is in his training, because while he's clearly got skills he also got his ass handed to him by a newbie, which again brings up the "Darth Vader dress-up" thing; like he's not quite worthy of the bad-ass outfit yet even though he's clearly really trying.
Or has the training not been very good because there hasn't really been anyone to counter the dark side of the force for a while? Does Snoke have a long-term plan or is he also sort of making it up as he goes along?
At this point I'm mostly just amused by the Empire/First Order's apparent unshakeable obsession with giant planetoid weapons. Like whoever's in charge just can't quite let the idea go, and has the hubris to think that no, that last guy was an idiot, this time they're really gonna get it right!
YESSSS to lightsaber duels that look like people actually fighting, not the whiz-bang hyper gymnastic choreography of the prequels. (Which was super-impressive and cool looking, but didn't really look like fighting.)

posted by usonian at 6:31 AM on December 18, 2015 [48 favorites]

There's a lot to like and I definitely enjoyed it overall. The Starkiller business seemed like a vestigial overhang from a previous draft or a late "we need big action" addition. Perfunctory.

New leads are both good quality, in their acting and their characters.

Surprised that the film was almost about something other than entirely warranted "Woo, Star Wars!". Characters refusing the call left and right, except poor Han whose final scene could have done with a bit more emotional set-up.

The film itself should have skipped the spinning ariel shot and ended on Luke or Rey's face. Great wordless acting there by both of them: "Help us, Son of Skywalker, you're our only hope!"
posted by comealongpole at 6:32 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

Honestly, the more I think about this the more this movie is disappointing on so many levels. There's some nice setup for the future, but this one felt like it was either treading water and moving chess pieces around to get them into position for the next movie.

And the number of plot holes is just ridiculous. It feels lazy, as if the writers said "Eh, it's Star Wars, we really don't have to worry about having all this make sense. Just tug on emotions and nostalgia, it's all good!"

*gets off own lawn, goes inside to watch Fury Road again*

Empire is still the best one.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

When Coruscant blew up it felt like they were symbolically destroying the prequels. (Was Jar Jar on the planet?)
posted by starman at 6:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [18 favorites]

That one general looked like a combination of Ron and Malfoy. It does kind of make sense in that if you combine the ambition and lack of empathy of Malfoy with the fear and inferiority complex of Ron, you end up with some kind of intense fascist.

Also, Snoke ~= Snape?
posted by ignignokt at 6:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

So disappointing for Abrams et al to not bother creating at least *some* kind of interesting new climax.

This was the first thing that struck me once the third act hove into view. As I mentioned upthread, I watched the six previous films this week and chronologically this is the third time in four movies that the final reel was a bunch of snub fighters attacking a gargantuan planet-killing device. And frankly, as far as intelligible depictions of the action went, it came in third of three.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:53 AM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

I kind of actively hope Rey isn't Luke's daughter, because I don't think it matters how or why the force is strong with her.

Yeah, it sort of goes against some fundamental themes of Star Wars but I would kill for a Rey that's unrelated to any of the other characters and just happened to be in the right place at the right time because destiny. I like the idea that an every(wo)man character can go from extreme poverty to galaxy-changing heroism because of her own grit and competence, rather than because blood will out or somesuch.

usonian, I also shared your interpretation of R2-D2's revival. He felt so alone in his grief for Luke that only Chewbacca's sense of loss was enough to get him to kick his own ass into waking back up.
posted by capricorn at 6:55 AM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]

Everyone has already commented on all the things I wanted to say about the movie (BB-8 going down the stairs!) , but one thing I really want to praise was the decision to have a 7pm first showing instead of midnight. The theatre I went to was full of families and it really added to the experience to hear these kids gasp, cry out, and clap with excitement in the middle of the film. It really brought me back to the first time I watched the original trilogy and how much joy it brought me. I'm just beaming today and even the cynical comments above (that I somewhat agree with) can't tamper that feeling.
posted by galvanized unicorn at 6:58 AM on December 18, 2015 [16 favorites]

7pm showings for major films on a Thursday have been occurring for a while, at least the past year. Which is great, because the midnight showing are kinda annoying because MIDNIGHT.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:02 AM on December 18, 2015

Re: FN2187

From Ep IV:

HAN
We've got to find out which cell
this princess of yours is in. Here
it is... cell twenty-one-eight-seven.
You go get her. I'll hold them here.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:07 AM on December 18, 2015 [112 favorites]

Apparently the planets blown up didn't include Coruscant but was something new called the Hosnian System (which I remember being mentioned by Hux). Maybe the New Republic had a different Senate location? *no idea*
posted by kmz at 7:12 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Here it is... cell twenty-one-eight-seven.

I knew the number'd mean something, I didn't realize it'd be that cool. 50 points to JJ Abrams' house.
posted by DigDoug at 7:15 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Yeah, 2187 is a big deal in GeoregeLucasLand; it's the title of a 1964 experimental film by Arthur Lipsett that remixed found footage and dialogue to create something new, and which blew young Lucas away as a film student. Slate ran a piece about it last week.
posted by mediareport at 7:16 AM on December 18, 2015 [15 favorites]

I bet making Finn's number 2187 was part of Lucas's contract with Disney.
posted by mediareport at 7:18 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Went with my husband last night. I like Star Wars, sure, but I'm not a hardcore fan and only know the movies. They're fun, but not on my top 10 (or 20, or 50) list for me. So as an 'outsider' my thoughts were:

GOOD:

- Rey and Finn were awesome. I immediately cared about them. There's nothing worse than when you're halfway through a film and suddenly realize you don't care about the protagonists' struggles one bit.
- Lots of funny moments, which was nice. Also, pretty much every scene Chewie was in. They used him well.
- Han and Leia's scenes together were lovely. You felt the weight of their history.
- I liked the BB droid. Cute, but not Elmo-cute levels of annoying.
- Lots of lovely shots, lovely scenery. Lots of careful details that added depth to the world-building.

BAD:
- didn't you guys find all the fan service slightly annoying? I almost felt like they added a couple seconds extra to any scene an old character showed up before they spoke, to allow the audience time to cheer and whoop.
- The Millennium Falcon just HAPPENED to be right there? Han and Chewie just HAPPENED to stumble over them? That was quite annoying. Deus ex machina bleh-ness.
- Why did they go to the planet with the wee old lady bar owner? Did they ever say? It just seemed like the thing to do because there might be Resistance there? Oh hey of COURSE she has the light saber. Sure.
- I wish Rey had to fight more to use her powers. It's like she realized she had them and was suddenly pulling advanced moves, like ordering people around.
- EXTRA BIG DEATH STAR OMG nevermind, no big deal, ok guys, it's over, we smushed it.
posted by Windigo at 7:24 AM on December 18, 2015 [17 favorites]

Right, but that was just so hand-wavey. The fact that the Falcon was just chillin' right there, magically waiting for them to escape from the planet at the right moment was actually my least favorite part of the whole film.
posted by Windigo at 7:32 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Few things:
I loved, loved, loved the scenes with Kylo Ren destroying random furniture with his lightsaber (and the understated comedy of the Storm Troopers' reaction) because of how believable it was. Any tradition of evil space wizards that are by definition hate-fueled rage-junkies ... my reaction was an immediate "why are we only encountering this behavior now in the fourth movie in the series?"

The scale of the final battle felt all wrong - a dozen X-Wings vs a planet that should have at the least thousands of TIE fighters? And for no adequately explained reason doesn't? Particularly in light of what happened to the last couple planetary-scale weapons? Then some asshole says "that's half our fleet destroyed" after six X-Wings are shot down, and my only thought is "Fleet? Buddy I'm not even sure you had a squadron."

Rey is almost a little too badass in all respects (tech, piloting, force, guns, lightsabers). Would've been nice for Finn to get one or two of those.

Oh, and Poe explained where he went - he was thrown miles away from the crashed fighter and eventually made his way back to the ~~Republic~~ Resistance. Since Finn was also thrown miles away, this is perfectly reasonable.

Overall: best Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back, and at least on par with A New Hope.
posted by Ryvar at 7:32 AM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

Why did they go to the planet with the wee old lady bar owner? Did they ever say?

They want to get Finn, Rey and the droid off the Falcon and onto a ship that draws attention if it flies anywhere even remotely inhabited. There's also an undertone of Han not wanting to be the one who hands them off to Leia because he doesn't want to deal with seeing her in person. In Finn's case, he (at the time) wants to bail entirely, which is why he tries to leave with the freighter dudes who are headed for the outer rim.
posted by sparkletone at 7:33 AM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

Well, yes, I got all that, I was just wondering if I had missed something that suggested more subtle reasons other than the stated reasons of handing the new generation crew off so they weren't Han's problem. Anything that suggested that Han wanted them to meet Maz because he knew she had the saber, that he knew who Rey is, etc. Anything to explain the impossible coincidence of it all.
posted by Windigo at 7:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Right, but that was just so hand-wavey.

I can definitely understand your feeling, but also I'm pretty sure I tolerate a LOT of ~coincidence~ in this sort of movie as the Falcon thing didn't throw me. If you remove the Falcon from the equation but leave the general shape of events intact, you have a far crazier chain of luck and coincidence getting Rey from leaning against the foot of an ATAT to tripping balls when she finds Luke's lightsaber to standing on a promontory holding the thing out to him. To me, it's That Kind of story and it has to work pretty hard to lose me for that sort of reason.

(Side note: As to your "didn't the fanservice rankle?" the only time I felt it at all was when they really bluntly made a Han-shoots-first joke. But they didn't stop and wink at the camera for that, so I was willing to let it slide.)
posted by sparkletone at 7:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Anything to explain the impossible coincidence of it all

A farm boy who's not really a pilot blows up the greatest weapon the galaxy had (to that date) seen in a one and a ???????? shot. Impossible coincidences and luck are how this story rolls.
posted by sparkletone at 7:40 AM on December 18, 2015 [22 favorites]

I'm willing to credit a lot of coincidence to "Luke is using the Force to influence events from his hermitage".
posted by Elementary Penguin at 7:41 AM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]

The other thing I noticed whilst watching and enjoying the film was some sort of repetition/Rule Of Twos that seemed to be going on. Not as in setup/payoff (with one glorious exception) but simply doing the same thing twice. Let me try your Bowcaster, Chewie!"... "Let me try it a second time!". Meh!

The largely-undifferentiated escapes from the inescapable torture chair would have worked better with a throwaway character brutally interrogated first, followed by Finn breaking Poe out whilst escorting him to be (re-?)interrogated. That would have made the impact of Rey uniquely escaping by sheer (capital-F) Force of will all the more effective IMHO. That was a great scene, regardless.

I had another example, but I forget. Double-establishing Darth Gormless's lightsaber freakouts, maybe? The glorious exception which worked that I mentioned above was (paraphrasing) "Why are you holding my hand?" / "No seriously, cut that shit out!". Parfait!

When Rey hit that key moment where she communed with The Force I really, really, really wanted to see her win by letting go, like Obi-Wan did in Episode IV. Not to die, not to fall backwards in a Jesus Christ pose, but to win by denying/recognising the meaninglessness of laser-sword fighting.

I happily give Lightsaber-arsekickery pass, because she (like Finn and the half-trained Kylo Ren) is still raw.

Watching these new characters cook is going to be so much fun.
posted by comealongpole at 7:43 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]

Oh yeah, BB-8 gives great thumbs-up!
posted by comealongpole at 7:44 AM on December 18, 2015 [25 favorites]

Side note: As to your "didn't the fanservice rankle?" the only time I felt it at all was when they really bluntly made a Han-shoots-first joke.

Huh, I didn't even notice that.

Also, did we see what happened to Maz? Did she survive?
posted by kmz at 7:46 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Thoughts, some of which have already been brought up in the thread:

- Rey is probably Luke's daughter.
- Han and Chewie got an automated notification when the Falcon powered up and left Jakku.
- I loved Kylo Ren as an angry, angsty, uncontrolled villain. Even his lightsaber makes sense now. And did you notice how Ben Burtt made Ren's lightsaber sputter instead of producing a steady hum, to match its rough blade?
- BB-8 was endearing, again thanks largely to Burtt, but the mere fact that it actually exists instead of being pure CG was a big, big help. The flaming thumbs-up was just adorable.
- I liked the reggae-ish number playing in Maz's bar (it's no "Mad About Me," but what is?) but it's not on the official soundtrack album.
- Stormtroopers are patrolling down the hall. Kylo Ren throws a tantrum and starts slashing up the place. Stormtroopers say "nope" and go back the way they came.
- We only see Snoke as a fifty-foot hologram. When we meet him for real, I bet he's Yoda-sized.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:46 AM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]

Way too many things to talk about here and most of them are still processing. Overall it felt like Star Wars and was SO much fun despite any of the problems it had.

I get the feeling we're going to have a Finn-Poe-Rey love triangle the same way we had Luke-Leia-Han. And I think Finn-Poe might be the endgame.

I'm not sure why they created a planet exactly like Tatooine and didn't call it Tatooine.

Is there any chance Rey is the offspring of Obi Wan? She could be a grandchild, and the desert planet fits here the same way it fits with her being Luke's.

Will we get any force apparitions of Obi Wan, Anakin, or Yoda?

My biggest pet peeve is probably how quickly Rey learned her powers. Did she even know that Jedis could control the minds of people and make them do things? I wish we'd had some sort of montage in there where she was running through the streets of Philadelphia learning how to use the force.

Why does the Starkiller thing have to suck up a star and shoot it across the galaxy? It would be much more awesome if they had a device that warped into a star and consumed it from the inside out, leaving the solar system without a sun and letting it die a torturous death. Or make it go supernova and obliterate everything in the system.

When Rey opened the box and touched the lightsaber she had visions/memories. Ren is speaking with Darth Vader's helmet. Can the force actually... embed itself within objects? I can't recall if Jedi have any sort of sacred or holy artifacts. This might go toward explaining why they are so particular about their lightsabers. (And follow a certain mythos of particular swords being mythical or magical, e.g. Excalibur.) (And in a thread for one of the previous movies I wondered if their force powers could actually be channeled through their artificial arms/hands, so maybe there is some sort of 'force conductor.' Or maybe this is crazy ramblings.)

Right, but that was just so hand-wavey. The fact that the Falcon was just chillin' right there, magically waiting for them to escape from the planet at the right moment was actually my least favorite part of the whole film.

Eh. This is part fan-service and part destiny/coincidence. The entire movie series if a sequence of insane coincidences on a galactic scale handwaved away as destiny. So I guess I'm saying... deal with it :)
posted by 2ht at 7:48 AM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

"I'm bitter that this movie is going to be better received than 4 of the 6 Star Wars movies I made."

Right now it's 95% fresh among critics on Rotten Tomatoes, one percentage point above New Hope and Empire Strikes Back :-)

"Why are you holding my hand?" / "No seriously, cut that shit out!".

Followed by this scene, after he'd been knocked out.
posted by effbot at 7:51 AM on December 18, 2015 [16 favorites]

The largely-undifferentiated escapes from the inescapable torture chair

I didn't find them to be undifferentiated at all. The first time around we have a trained pilot for the resistance, a badass, someone who doesn't seem to have broken yet despite the fact that he's bleeding and there's a torture droid floating around right there when Ren comes to talk to him. Ren does some force nonsense and walks out ten seconds later with the info he wanted without breaking a sweat despite Poe seeming to possess considerable willpower.

Rey ends up in the chair. She seems like such a non-entity that they don't bother with a torture droid. This is of a piece with Ren saying they don't need BB-8 if they have her. He's arrogant and she's just some scavenger. But oh, wait, oops, she's the first force adept anyone's seen since Ren went on a rampage and killed Luke's other students and his mind stuff really doesn't work on her.

The former sets up the latter so that we can have a better sense of how amazing Rey's resistance to interrogation and subsequent escape is.
posted by sparkletone at 7:51 AM on December 18, 2015 [23 favorites]

- We only see Snoke as a fifty-foot hologram. When we meet him for real, I bet he's Yoda-sized.

That was my thought too, Yoda sized or even smaller. But... I sort of hope he is actually the same species as Yoda. THAT would be a great twist.
posted by 2ht at 7:52 AM on December 18, 2015 [12 favorites]

Also, did we see what happened to Maz? Did she survive?

We don't see her die on screen but also if she survived, I'd think she would've been there to greet the resistance when they landed. Her bar's toast but she might plausibly not be.
posted by sparkletone at 7:54 AM on December 18, 2015

Did she even know that Jedis could control the minds of people and make them do things?

In both the OT and the prequels, we're shown that some laypeople are well aware of the Jedi mind trick (Watto, Jabba). I didn't think it was too much of a stretch to believe that Rey had heard some of those same stories, originally thought them myths, and then decided to give it a try after finding out that all of this other previously fantastic stuff was actually real.
posted by Kosh at 7:54 AM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

I guess I don't understand what's hand-wavey about a vehicle's owners being able to track it remotely after it gets stolen? Isn't that how lojack works?

Hey, it's just how it felt to me, at the time, watching the movie. It just peeved me that's how they showed up, in tandem with the coincidence of how the Falcon was found. Like I said, I'm the voice of 'I am not a serious fan' here.

And I think Finn-Poe might be the endgame.

Oh, interesting. What gave you that vibe?
posted by Windigo at 7:54 AM on December 18, 2015

Did she even know that Jedis could control the minds of people and make them do things?

That's pretty much what Kylo was trying to do to her during the interrogation.
posted by usonian at 7:56 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

I liked the reggae-ish number playing in Maz's bar

Written by this guy.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:56 AM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

And oh I want more Captain Phasma. She's the most chilling character right now. She's a fanatic, a true believer.
posted by Windigo at 7:58 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

And I think Finn-Poe might be the endgame.

Wow, ok, I definitely got a bit of that too - something in the way they greeted each other, held eye contact, just *something* there - definitely more than just the bromance that's often the base for these ships...
posted by ominous_paws at 7:58 AM on December 18, 2015 [13 favorites]

And oh I want more Captain Phasma. She's the most chilling character right now. She's a fanatic, a true believer.

Yes. This is a minor complaint I forgot to touch on. What we get is a fantastic teaser, and they clearly do away with her in a way that means she survives. Trash compactors are not a reliable way to completely get rid of people in this setting! She totally got off the planet before it blew up.

I hope she becomes a grey "helps but might betray the resistance at any moment and even does sometimes" sort of character.
posted by sparkletone at 8:00 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also, Snoke ~= Snape?
posted by ignignokt

Snoke ~= Stimpy.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:02 AM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

I liked the reggae-ish number playing in Maz's bar

Written by this guy.

And not on the soundtrack! There's new LMM music but I can't listen to it repeatedly, WTFFFFFFFFFF.
posted by kmz at 8:06 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

I feel like Kylo Ren could have VERY easily disabled Finn with the Force.

Which is why I think Finn is a likely Force adept. Fighting with a lightsaber would require those special Jedi reflexes we've heard so much about (in TPM, Qui-Gon mention Anakin being able to see things just before they happen). Maybe he's not particularly skilled with the saber (clearly he's not; he did get outskilled in short order), but based purely on reflexes, I think he's one to watch.

It hit me this morning on the way to work: what the title means. I'm almost certain loads of people already figured this out or heard this notion (I hadn't), but I think it indicates not that the Force has awoken in general, but within some character (or characters)! I think that, since Finn and Rey are the two characters whose story arc is taking the massive turn (the first step of the Hero's Journey, so to speak), it's possible — and likely — that the Force is awakened in both of them.
posted by grubi at 8:06 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

Here it is... cell twenty-one-eight-seven.

I'm kind of relieved that's what it is. I don't need all my weirdo Abrams-based conspiracy theories to be true.

I will mention right now that I woke up at 11AM yesterday, saw the movie at 7PM, it's now 11:09, I'm going to the 10:30 PM showing tonight, and I still haven't gotten a wink of sleep yet. The Force has awaken... me! So keep that in mind while reading my kookiness.
posted by grubi at 8:09 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

It didn't really feel like George Lucas's Star Wars at all: There was only one scene where our characters were conversing while seated at a table, and they were talking very animatedly.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:11 AM on December 18, 2015 [21 favorites]

And here I was thinking that one of the reasons for the different races for those characters was to telegraph "Nope, no possibility that these scenes will be creepy incest in hindsight! Go ahead and ship them!"

The existence of Supernatural fanfiction proves that shippers will ignore incest if it would get in the way of a story. Hell, sometimes incest is the character motivation.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:14 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

The existence of Supernatural fanfiction proves that shippers will ignore incest if it would get in the way of a story.

*very quietly closes BBR2.docx, drags it to the trash, drags self to the trash, empties trash*

(Slightly more seriously, we'll see but I feel like Finn/Poe is going to be INCREDIBLY POPULAR when it comes to that sort of thing.)
posted by sparkletone at 8:17 AM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

That a true believer like Phasma would lower the shields instead of dying to protect the cause was yet another of the moments in the SooperDeathStar plot that was "embarrassingly perfunctory," as one review put it.

On the other hand, maybe Phasma figured that if she sacrificed herself the Resistance would just find someone else to lower the shields, whereas by doing it herself she might be able to find a way to stop them later.

But if you have a lot of skill nd practice, and the other person has absolutely no idea what they're doing, it's possible to lose to the novice just because they do stuff that makes zero sense and would be likely to get them touched, and that's kind of hard to predict and guard against.

From The Deeper Meaning of Liff by Douglas Adams and John Lloyd:

ABOYNE (vb.) To beat an expert at a game of skill by playing so appallingly that none of his clever tactics or strategies are of any use to him.

posted by Faint of Butt at 8:17 AM on December 18, 2015 [27 favorites]

Maybe you get better Jedi if you let people just grow up with normal experiences from a less exalted perspective, then teach them about the Force instead of making children swim into this really intense psychometaphysical experience at the age of 5.

Trained from toddlerhood: you get guys like Dooku.
Trained from little kidhood: you get guys like Anakin.
Trained from the age of 20: LUKE MUFUKKIN SKYWALKER

I think your theory holds up.
posted by grubi at 8:18 AM on December 18, 2015 [34 favorites]

About the Ren lightsaber fight and whether it's a stretch or not: I think you also have to take into account the facts that in the previous scene, he had both (a) murdered his own father, which probably stirred up no small amount of conflict, given what we've already seen of the character struggling and (b) taken a bowcaster bolt right to the gut as a result of that very same action--the film makes a point of showing very obviously that he's bleeding onto the snow before the duel commences. So, he's obviously not fighting at top form, and I think his unevenness is also consistent with the theme of him "playing" at being Darth Vader while lacking the discipline and control that Vader displayed.

I'm willing to handwave away the rest as a "Force sensitivity helping out" sort of thing, honestly. It's not the only ridiculous thing... people picking up guns and being accurate with them despite having no firearms training is also pretty unrealistic, but it happens all the time in movies like this. And while it's not a lightsaber, Rey is shown to be highly competent with a melee weapon during the skirmish on Jakku.
posted by Kosh at 8:23 AM on December 18, 2015 [16 favorites]

Yep, them having Ren beat the snot out of those guys with the staff had me just *itching* for her to get the saber for the whole damn film...
posted by ominous_paws at 8:24 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

But yeah, too bad Carrie Fisher didn't have more to do.

I have a (surprise! ;-) theory about this. I think this film is for Han Solo, each of the next ones are for Leia and Luke. Meaning: each of the three will have their individual stories be part of the main focus. And the stories of Finn, Poe, and Rey (Finndamerey?) will be stopping through each of the stories of the Classic Three (Skyolorgana?). I'm thinking it's a clever way to wrap up the saga for one generation and hand it off to another, one person at a time.

For VIII, I'm sliiiiightly leaning Luke just based on the last scene, but logically, storywise, I think Luke's should be IX, just to wrap it all up. Seems like he'll easily be in VIII, but will have about as much screen time as Leia had in this one.

I think this is how we're saying goodbye to our heroes.
posted by grubi at 8:25 AM on December 18, 2015 [60 favorites]

On the other hand, maybe Phasma figured that if she sacrificed herself the Resistance would just find someone else to lower the shields, whereas by doing it herself she might be able to find a way to stop them later.

This is what I assumed was happening, which is why I was somewhat surprised she didn't show back up at any point after. That surprise is why I think there's no she's just a bit part in this one movie and won't show up again in subsequent ones. Thinking about it more just now, it'd be really, really cool if she was OUT FOR REVENGE next movie and got converted to the aforementioned grey area good person-ish sort of character.
posted by sparkletone at 8:27 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

(Her dreams about the island planet might have been visions, not memories.)

Or mind-control programming engineered by the DHARMA Initiative.
posted by grubi at 8:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]

Tattoine is way more connected to the rest of the universe than Jakku.
posted by drezdn at 8:29 AM on December 18, 2015

(Side note: As to your "didn't the fanservice rankle?" the only time I felt it at all was when they really bluntly made a Han-shoots-first joke. But they didn't stop and wink at the camera for that, so I was willing to let it slide.)

When Rey mentions the Falcon making the Kessel Run in fourteen parsecs, about a quarter of the audience (including me) in last night's show, said "Twelve!" in full voice at the same time Han does. A movie audience of fans corrected a fellow (albeit on-screen) fan. I may be remembering that wrong — I know I said it! — but it was a smidge of fanservice that makes me happy.
posted by grubi at 8:33 AM on December 18, 2015 [24 favorites]

"Let me try your Bowcaster, Chewie!"...

Which reminds me: in something like fifty gotdang years together as a team, this is the first time Han ever tried out the bowcaster? Ever? Come on.
posted by grubi at 8:35 AM on December 18, 2015 [30 favorites]

If fandom is a religion, and waht you're a fan of is your denomination, this film reminded me why I fell in love with my version of going to church.
posted by grubi at 8:37 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

Trained from toddlerhood: you get guys like Dooku.
Trained from little kidhood: you get guys like Anakin.
Trained from the age of 20: LUKE MUFUKKIN SKYWALKER

But there is the danger that if the good guys don't try to train them to good when they are kids then the bad guys will have got then to the dark side before they get to 20.
posted by biffa at 8:38 AM on December 18, 2015

My biggest pet peeve is probably how quickly Rey learned her powers. Did she even know that Jedis could control the minds of people and make them do things?

I'm thinking it fits in with stuff Yoda and Obi-Wan taught Luke in the OT: using the Force is meant to be somewhat instinctual. Maybe she "felt" Ren's invasion of her mind and mentally resisted, saw that he was frustrated the stronger she tried, and pieced it together. It was impressive enough for her to shut him out, but I literally squealed (for a split second) when I realized she was not just shutting him out, she was pushing back!

And when she tried the Jedi Mind Trick™ the first couple of times, she was thinking in terms of convincing the subject, of ordering them around. When she concentrated and relaxed (as soon as I saw her face soften, I got a thrill, 'cause I just knew what was up!), she took care of it like a pro. She figured out you don't force the Force; you focus and let it flow.
posted by grubi at 8:44 AM on December 18, 2015 [36 favorites]

The mention of Han with the Bowcaster reminded me of one thing I did miss in the film: a proper shootout with lasers flying everywhere, I didn't like that ask the blasters seemed to blow people backwards and it felt like a lot of the fighting was from a single person's perspective with one shot at a time. Basically I want an episode IV cellblock type thing.
posted by biffa at 8:44 AM on December 18, 2015

Why does the Starkiller thing have to suck up a star and shoot it across the galaxy?

At the very least, it lives up to its name that way.
posted by grubi at 8:44 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

Ren is speaking with Darth Vader's helmet.

Doc Brown conferred with photographs of famous inventors. To each his or her (deeply mad) own.
posted by grubi at 8:45 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

She figured out you don't force the Force; you focus and let it flow.

She does the same thing in the fight with Ren so this sets that up also.
posted by biffa at 8:46 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

And I think Finn-Poe might be the endgame.

Wow, ok, I definitely got a bit of that too - something in the way they greeted each other, held eye contact, just *something* there - definitely more than just the bromance that's often the base for these ships...

Space is so cold, and Poe Dameron's eyes are so warm...

I did get a kick out of how easily Finn makes friends. Sure, he's got a bit of PTSD; sure he's running from the Big Bad Evil; and, sure, he's uncertain of what the hell happens next... but he's just so goddamn genuine, I'm loving it. "What's the plan?" "I don't know! We'll figure it out!" Force bless him, he's awesome.
posted by grubi at 8:49 AM on December 18, 2015 [36 favorites]

And having one of your heroes in a space opera be a janitor? Space Quest FTW.
posted by grubi at 9:00 AM on December 18, 2015 [53 favorites]

I loved the Finn/Poe scenes; there seemed to be, like, huge genuine goodwill between them and I hope there are many spinoff movies where they are bros and just hang out and enjoy each others' company

Bosom Buddies that shiz.
posted by grubi at 9:03 AM on December 18, 2015

And having one of your heroes in a space opera be a janitor?

I did, really REALLY want this to be the reason he knew how to shut down the shields, though. Because housekeeping? They know ALL the secrets of EVERYTHING - where everything is, how you hide your password under your keyboard, how to turn off the deflector shields.
posted by anastasiav at 9:03 AM on December 18, 2015 [50 favorites]

Slightly more seriously, we'll see but I feel like Finn/Poe is going to be INCREDIBLY POPULAR when it comes to that sort of thing.

Sadly, if Captain America: Winter Solider has taught me anything, it's that sexy as hell men of colour will always be ignored for angsty pasty guys.

Don't be that way, fandom. Please? Please? Because I can't cope with them and their jacket of love.
posted by Katemonkey at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2015 [15 favorites]

They know ALL the secrets of EVERYTHING - where everything is, how you hide your password under your keyboard, how to turn off the deflector shields.

Like he's still buddies with the superintendent of the building! Maybe a 70s-style super, like Bookman or Schneider.
posted by grubi at 9:05 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Like he's still buddies with the superintendent of the building! Maybe a 70s-style super, like Bookman or Schneider.

Well, no.
posted by anastasiav at 9:08 AM on December 18, 2015

Because I can't cope with them and their jacket of love.

"Keep it," Poe said, his dark chocolate bedroom eyes softening. "It looks good on you."

Finn licked his lips, then Poe's.

posted by grubi at 9:08 AM on December 18, 2015 [29 favorites]

Which reminds me: in something like fifty gotdang years together as a team, this is the first time Han ever tried out the bowcaster? Ever? Come on.

Exactly. It's like examples like this that made no goddamn sense in the movie. While the "magic" of Finn and Rey and appearances by the old cast was great, it wasn't enough to pull me and make me not care about the numerous large and small plot holes.

But as a guy in his 40s, the movie really wasn't for me per se and that's ok. I'm beyond pleased that a young female will be the "major" jedi and that's a great black male character. That sort of thing will deeply impact a lot of kids and give them positive role models to emulate. For that reason alone, the movie should be lauded.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:11 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

Like he's still buddies with the superintendent of the building! Maybe a 70s-style super, like Bookman or Schneider.

Well, no.

Clearly, I'm slowly going insane. Here's me now, apparently (2:39 if the link fails to hit the right moment).
posted by grubi at 9:13 AM on December 18, 2015

Like he's still buddies with the superintendent of the building! Maybe a 70s-style super, like Bookman or Schneider.

Now I'm picturing Scruffy the Janitor somewhere in the bowels of Starkiller Base, flipping through "Space Juggs" muttering "Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived."
posted by entropicamericana at 9:19 AM on December 18, 2015 [31 favorites]

Now I'm picturing Scruffy the Janitor somewhere in the bowels of Starkiller Base, flipping through "Space Juggs" muttering "Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived."

Collapsing to the floor when he dies, with a sad loud jingle of his giant ring of space-keys.
posted by grubi at 9:21 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Went at 2 AM last night and saw it in IMAX 3D and had a blast. It's a 10/10 as far as I'm concerned. My only complaint is the assholes from an asshole site who spoiled one plot point for me. I can't wait for more.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:24 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Note to self: avoid asshole site.
posted by grubi at 9:26 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Couple of things that came to me while I was watching it...

'There's been a hell of a lot of Han Solo in this.... oh, that's why'

The 'Refusal of the call' was a bit on the nose... as it happened to two characters at almost the same time
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:26 AM on December 18, 2015

Not about the movie proper, more about the fans:

A couple friends and I did an 8 pm showing in Brooklyn last night, and spotted a couple of SuperFans while we were there: one guy had on a Chewbacca union suit, and another guy must have just come from work because he had on a business suit - which he topped off with a Stormtrooper helmet.

The guy in my party apparently saw him in the mens' room later, which inspired the following observation: "There are three things which should never be seen together - a business suit, a Stormtrooper helmet, and urine."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:32 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

I really wasn't sure what to expect with regards to opening night crowds. The 7:30 show I went to out in the boonies (at an independent theater running the film on 2 screens) wasn't sold out or even all that crowded. We got there about 30 minutes early and were the only people in the lobby. My friend and I were the only two people in our entire row.
posted by usonian at 9:46 AM on December 18, 2015

I'm weary at the moment, my thoughts more garbled and jumbled than I would prefer, and I'll probably rest and wait to see the movie again in a day or two before really trying to put my thoughts down on it. But I'm weary because I got home at 10 pm last night and was so completely buzzed about my experience, I couldn't find sleep for another two and a half hours (I usually pass out between 10 and 11 on a daily work week basis).

The Force Awakens was the Star Wars movie I had been waiting for since the end of Return of the Jedi and had pursued hungrily the next step in the story through an expanded universe now declared defunct. It was the movie that I kept hoping to see every time I sat down in the theater for the Prequel Trilogy films. It's also a movie that I'm relieved that George Lucas did not try and make himself.

The trailers had long begun to sink their hooks into me as Abrams shared scenes which drew upon awe and fantasy, something attempted in the Prequels, but undermined often by the surrounding elements. But sitting in the theater last night, when the lights finally went off, and the last trailer banished to be forgotten for another time, I began to feel something. Hope? Excitement? It was some earnest desire to have a need met that I had carried with me as a fan of the franchise for decades. Then Williams' fanfare filled the theaters and the yellow text floated in the space before me (3D showing), and as I read, "Luke Skywalker has vanished..." it began to feel like a home coming. Here was the story that I truly cared about finally being resumed after an inexplicable, but perhaps necessary, wait. My eyes watered and not for the last time as I watched the story unfold.

Much like the first movie, we began in the middle of things, not at the start as in Phantom Menace. The struggle is present and ongoing. Poe's character immediately begin to warm on me, as well BB-8, who had existed in so many merchandising ways for me until that moment. Prior to the film, BB-8 had been a caricature of a Star Wars droid, and while at times, the almost whimsical nature in which we learned about the droid's abilities were aimed to surprise and delight, I found myself endeared to a droid that had the mindfulness to thank Rey for saving it.

Rey is the winner in my mind of all the new characters, if only because she multiple times displays incredible bravery, be it against villains or against the struggle of doing the right thing over securing the equivalent of a food fortune in a world where every day she fights to simply put food on her plate. She's a scavenger, the equivalent of a vulture and demeaned as something to be trod upon several times through the film. In truth, she's a survivor and that refusal to give in is what pushes forward through every encounter in the film.

There's a certain subtle level of commentary in John Boyega's selection to play Finn, choosing an individual of African ancestry to play a character stolen as a child to be raised a soldier in a military with nefarious and ruthless goals. His own innate goodness also argues that we are who we are because of who we are and not what others try to make us be. In considering his background, should he have ever cared at all for Poe or Rey? Was he always simply flawed from the beginning, but those cracks in the 'instructions' simply widened and crumbled in the face of the brutal tactics of the First Order. As others also pointed out, he's similar to Rey in starting out at the bottom of perceived social order.

The second I heard the word garbage, I knew it was the Falcon. There's no faster hunk of junk in the galaxy and there's a certain layer of irony that Rey obviously idolized the ship, but never knew the YT-1200 sitting outside the town, one which rarely flew, was that ship. Soaring along with her in every step of the film, be it through the innards of a derelict Super Star Destroyer or crashing through trees was one continual jot of pleasure. But no less than seeing Han and Chewie again, one more time.

This was a Han who had weathered a life that had fallen apart, and when that life had shattered, and everything he had come to love in the course of a great adventure had slipped away, he returned to being that guy sitting at a table in a cantina, waiting for a job. And like ever, his loyal friend, Chewbacca. It's much more, unsurprisingly given Kasdan's role in the script writing, the Chewie and Han of Empire Strikes Back. A wookie who seems to care far more about Han than he does, himself, and can be as temperamental as he is brave at times. By this point, Han is a tragic figure, as much as Obi-Wan Kenobi was, living as a hermit in the sands of Tatooine. His desert is space, his hermitage his ships. He goes on to play that role of the wise and veteran individual well and in a way only Solo could do so. The only key difference, the one thing he was entrusted to keep safe, his son, he failed to do.

Kylo Ren aka Ben, had to win me over at first. He was too vocal and active to dwell in the mystery of identity behind his mask, and by removing it, he became a character identifiable with and thus, one to like or not. It makes sense that an adherent to the Dark Side might struggle with the lure of the Light, and it's a reversal among many, of the temptation faced by other Force users of the Skywalker family. I found my appreciation for him based in his insecurities. His fear that he cannot be whom he idolizes, Vader. But the myth of Vader seems to truly be a tool of Snoke, a user or at least mentor in the ways of the Dark Side, but not someone who holds the Sith Lord in such reverence that he doesn't allow a relic like Vader's helmet (skull, too?) to leave his possession. It's given to Ren as a fetish, something for his apprentice to latch on to and feel the pressure of striving to become on a daily basis. I loved that at the outset of the battle over Starkiller base, Poe states something to the ilk regarding the sun, "While there's still light, we have hope..." And it's when the last of the light vanishes, when the shadows sweep over that Ben Solo appears to finally disappear. Luke's final test in becoming a Jedi, he confronts his father, but instead of destroying him, saves him. Here, Ben confronts his father, but rather than be saved by Han, he destroys him. It's Oepidal in nature, and Ben only truly becomes Kylo Ren after he has vanquished that barrier holding him back. Not to mention the heart wrenching moment of Leia knowing her beloved Han had not only been killed, but had most likely failed in saving their son.

I remain mixed on Snope, if in part because this new trilogy was a perfect opportunity to push away from the more ridiculous or over the top names that Lucas almost heavily doubled down on in the Prequels. The enemies of the Original Trilogy had names which seemed laced with a certain level of ominous threat: Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine. Ah well. He had as much substance, perhaps, as the Emperor in Empire, and despite his name, may result in something just as frightening.

The film is laced repeatedly with callbacks, and while some might want to dismiss them as fan service, I see it more as emblematic of a promise being made to those who loved the original films. Here the filmmaker and those involved are telling us, "We understand the originals, we understand what you loved...and we're going to try and bring it back." It runs between themes and coincidences, and it ties together the Original Trilogy to this new one in a more finessed manner than the Prequels connected to the Originals. The latter did so laboriously, often times attempting cleverness, but more often than not resulting in crude abrupt lines drawn and circled around these instances. and then going so far as to dismiss the Originals by purposefully contradicting the story and facts established in them. Here, we have the reverse, both in the continuity between Jedi and The Force Awakens, but simply in the aforementioned connections. It's love, not expectations, that draws these two trilogies together.

I've written so much, but I've still much more to write. I left the film shaken with the feeling of utter satisfaction. I wanted to return to the battle amongst the stars that had occurred a long time ago, far, far away, and for the first time in decades, I finally felt as if I had. It was everything I had hoped for and more.
posted by Atreides at 9:47 AM on December 18, 2015 [36 favorites]

Because I can't see the movie for another week or more, I'm reading the novelization. You get to read what BB-8 is thinking at various points.
posted by drezdn at 9:50 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

What does BB-8 think of the other two droids.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:51 AM on December 18, 2015

Oh, and I don't think anyone answered your question, drezdn. I didn't spot anyone from Rebels or Clone Wars. Snap might be the only major EU character and he's on the level of Wedge. He might be the new Wedge.
posted by Atreides at 9:52 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Poe disappears for an hour or so and then reappears without comment in an X-wing.

They turn that old boring "black dude dies first" trope on its head and everyone's just complaining that the white guy wasn't around more?

You are quoting me here. I am searching in vain for where I complained "the white guy" wasn't in it enough. I was more wondering why the first of the three leads we meet disappears without explanation to for the entire second act of the movie. I know John Boyega only from Attack the Block before this; if Moses were missing for an hour of that movie, I would be equally puzzled.

In any event, the Guatemalan-born Oscar Isaac (born Óscar Isaac Hernández Estrada) might be surprised to learn he is the designated white guy.

Incidentally, the pre-show in the cinema I saw it in ran several promotional videos for the movie we were about to see. There were clips of interviews with some of the cast and crew. It was sadly unsurprising that Harrison Ford (Actor) and J.J. Abrams (Director) were thus identified in a lower-third graphics overlay but Boyega and Lupita Nyong'o just had an overlay reading Star Wars: The Force Awakens opens December 18.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:56 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

What does BB-8 think of the other two droids.

I haven't got that far. Still on Jakku at this point. BB-8 is a bit of a misanthrope.
posted by drezdn at 9:56 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Friend on twitter had a power cut (and a subsequent near riot) at his showing... still only seen three quarters of it.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:02 AM on December 18, 2015

Oh, also, I like that the Supreme Leader is an alien. Snoke is probable not going to be as cool and brilliant as Grand Admiral Thrawn, but it's nice to see someone different in the evil guys' executive seat.
posted by ignignokt at 10:03 AM on December 18, 2015

I saw it last night at midnight to a full, if quiet, house. No applause except for mine, though lots of laughter and a lot of enthusiastic people leaving.

Ohio State's finals ended yesterday (I was grading in line, heh), and so there were a number of drunk students. The guy sitting next to me told me he didn't really like Star Wars (his dream, apparently, is to be on Survivor), but he and his roommates had been drinking since their last final at 4 and his roommates are nerds. I was getting apprehensive (he was very chatty and made fun of me for having eaten a turkey sandwich and kept trying to give me his popcorn and fell into the row in front of us when he got up before the movie started), but then about 10 minutes in he fell asleep and snored more or less like Darth Vader breathing for the rest of the movie. It was very ... atmospheric.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:03 AM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]

Apropos of nothing before:
I liked that there was just one wipe cut, just as there was only one line of the Imperial Death March motif. Short homages to signatures of the Lucas films that didn't get in the way.
posted by General Malaise at 10:05 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Right at the beginning of our showing, someone made one of those typical pre-movie noises -- a loud cough, or some rustling, something like that -- and another audience member shushed him so loudly the entire theater could hear him. Everyone giggled, and it was this weird -- to me, because I was too young for the original trilogy and the prequels never felt like this -- moment of audience synergy, because whoever that guy was he was being ridiculous, but we were all there, you know?

Re: Finn/Poe shipping, part of me is like, "Much jacket very ship," another part is all, "Ugh, this is going to be the juggernaut dudeslash pairing that takes over fic fandom to the near-exclusion of anyone else, isn't it, blech," and a third part is delighted that finally the juggernaut dudeslash pairing that takes over fic fandom is not The Two White Dudes. I feel very confused.

Katemonkey, do you have any Captain America/Falcon recs, per chance?
posted by bettafish at 10:05 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

I like that the Supreme Leader is an alien.

My kid does thinks Snope can't breathe the same atmosphere as the humans, which is why the hologram. I prefer the teacup theory.
posted by anastasiav at 10:06 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Teacup theory?
posted by drezdn at 10:07 AM on December 18, 2015

We're all going to be so disappointed when VIII happens and Snoke is not handbag accessory-sized.
posted by bettafish at 10:07 AM on December 18, 2015 [22 favorites]

We're all going to be so disappointed when VIII happens and Snoke is not handbag accessory-sized.

It turns out Snoke is Bill Brasky.
posted by drezdn at 10:10 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

Teacup theory?

"do you think he will sit in a teacup and shout about how mad he is and everyone else will try not to giggle"
posted by anastasiav at 10:11 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Oh! I also wanted to say that just before Han got skewered, I loved that Ren's face was lit with half red, half blue light, and then he solidly chose the dark side and went red. Not very subtle, but pretty cool!

And in their duel, when Rey and Ren had their sabers locked, both of their faces alternated between blue and red illumination. I remember thinking just how heavy-handed it was.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:42 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

as I read, "Luke Skywalker has vanished..." it began to feel like a home coming.

Amen! I had my skeptic hat on, not ready to hate or love the film, just take it for what it was. And when I read that one simple sentence, they had me in the palm of their hands.

never knew the YT-1200 sitting outside the town,

AHEM. It's a YT-1300, if you'd please.

I left the film shaken with the feeling of utter satisfaction.

I was stunned and I rarely get stunned.

I wanted to return to the battle amongst the stars that had occurred a long time ago, far, far away, and for the first time in decades, I finally felt as if I had. It was everything I had hoped for and more.

Amen! (Or the SWU equivalent)
posted by grubi at 10:47 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

Oh! I also wanted to say that just before Han got skewered, I loved that Ren's face was lit with half red, half blue light, and then he solidly chose the dark side and went red. Not very subtle, but pretty cool!

And in their duel, when Rey and Ren had their sabers locked, both of their faces alternated between blue and red illumination. I remember thinking just how heavy-handed it was.

I also noticed this, but I think "heavy-handed" in a space opera is just about the right way to do it.
posted by grubi at 10:50 AM on December 18, 2015 [27 favorites]

I did a little reading last night after getting home, and it's got the original actors for Admiral Ackbar and Nien Nunb, (at least one of the two who played him). And, as a seedy gambler, Warwick Davis!

This movie is a homecoming. Coulda used more Mothma.
posted by grubi at 10:54 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

I remember thinking just how heavy-handed it was.

It's even better if you remember the sabers in the prequels not really casting light much, which once noticed cannot be unseen.
posted by sparkletone at 10:59 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Coulda used more Mothma.

In my head she's somewhere high up in the new Republic quietly ensuring the resistance gets as much support as possible until it's time to go wild and purge all the New Order fascists.
posted by sparkletone at 11:02 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

A headcanon I love, but which would mean she dies when the Hosnian System was destroyed. RIP Mothma.
posted by bettafish at 11:06 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

Sooo glad to be able to talk about this movie with you nerds, and pleased to see some metafilter-quality grousing though I watched the movie with a big stupid grin on my face that still hasn't faded. Some thoughts:

-Stealing the plot beats from ANH was SO SO SMART you guys, because it felt familiar but refreshing in the way that it subverted your expectations about the roles the characters would play. So I've wanted episodes VII-IX since I was thirteen and first saw ANH in part because I wanted to see Luke take on the Obi-Wan role. But Luke wasn't Obi-Wan! He's Yoda. Han Solo is Obi-Wan. MIND BLOWN BRILLIANT. Other interesting subversions: Poe is Leia, the princess who sets the droid on the quest. Yeah, the new bigger biggest death star thing was dumb but I liked that they called it the Starkiller and hung a lampshade on it, that's how you gotta do it, okay? Okay.

-In fact, this is so smart of an idea that I spent last night sick with a cold putting together in my head a "what if the Phantom Menace had been approached this way?" headcanon where young Obi-Wan is Luke who has been in Jedi training forever and yearns for something more a la Luke, and young Anakin is a hotheaded hilarious pilot a la Han Solo and we actually start in the middle of a WAR (probably that clone war, why hold it off?) which is oh so much more interesting than the meandering trade negotiations we got instead.

-The handwaving at Maz's place was silly but this is a series about magical space wizards so I'm cool with it.

-I actually thought that the weak link writing and acting wise were Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford trying to rush through what was essentially a divorce's worth of feelings in the middle of a fast-paced action film. Plus, the young actors were so so good and subtle and they were just...not there. I love them, though. Carrie Fisher is a magnificent queen. So I'll forgive them.

-What kind of dad was Han Solo? I got into an argument on the way home with my friend about it. She thinks Han would have been a great dad and Ben Solo is just wangsting. I can actually imagine that he was a fun if emotionally absent sort who probably wasn't on board with jedi training. And when did he do his disappearing act? Was it when Ben started his training, or after he turned? The dialog seemed unclear.

-I don't want Rey to be Luke's daughter but I guess she probably is. My hope is that she's actually the virgin birth chosen one or some shit like that. I think Luke should be chaste--it's more interesting and less plot convenient. Maybe she was brought to Luke for training on that planet as a girl but dropped off elsewhere because oh no my jedi academy failed? IDK. It's heavily implied she's his daughter but I think they could do different things with it.

-Look Kylo Ren is going to launch a thousand tweenage fanfics. Adam Driver is lovely and dark and magnificent, his acting was perfect, he's so pained and angsty and there's this built in hope that somehow he can be turned to the light. This isn't the healthiest trope but the twelve year old girl in me was totally "yep, I ship him, and me, as an awesome Jedi girl."

-WE GOT A PLOT SIGNIFICANT JEDI GIRL. In retrospect, parts of Rey's character were a touch flat but her character and backstory were really great and I love that she's a Han Solo fangirl. She's us! And she gets to use a lightsaber and the force and do you know how happy I am about it? So she can be a touch pants. Because I will put myself in those pants and pretend to be her.

-The saber battles were right out of an old samurai film, which is how it should be, no leaping through lava or anything like that. Heavy breathing, snow, trees, getting bloody. Perfect.

-Is Finn going to be Lando's son? I am guessing yes. I have no idea how I feel about that.

-There are more bullet points but my brain is pretty much this right now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:07 AM on December 18, 2015 [49 favorites]

Why would Finn be Lando's son?

My theory on Rey is that if she's a Skywalker kid, that Luke left her with a foster family because for [reasons tba] he thought she would have a safer and more stable upbringing not realizing her foster parents would get taken out of the picture. He himself came out far better raised lovingly if a bit stifled by Owen and Beru than if he'd been Darth Vader's kid, or even Obi-Wan Kenobi's ward/student, so it wouldn't be surprising if he thought that way.

If Kylo Ren and Rey are roughly the same ages as their characters, ten years apart, that works even better because Ben's fall to the Dark Side could easily have been the instigating factor there.
posted by bettafish at 11:18 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

130 minutes felt like it flew by and could've had a couple extra moments to breathe without starting to feel long.

Yeah, I would buy an extended edition.

At this point I'm mostly just amused by the Empire/First Order's apparent unshakeable obsession with giant planetoid weapons. Like whoever's in charge just can't quite let the idea go, and has the hubris to think that no, that last guy was an idiot, this time they're really gonna get it right!

I was okay with it, because the resistance pretty much reacted the same way the audience did. *Shrug*, whatever, we just fly in and blow it up somehow. Probably another subtle EU nod. Han on if the Empire had been around to fight the Vong invasion:

"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
―Han Solo, to Vana Dorja

didn't you guys find all the fan service slightly annoying?

I showed up to watch this movie at 2 AM, I better get service! Seriously though, no. It gave the fans what they want in a great way, that's what franchises should do. People keep coming back for a reason. If they are back after the prequels, I think it means they know there is still some magic there they want to experience again.

They gave us a lot of Han because this was the end of Han's part of the story. I wouldn't be surprised if the next entry in the trilogy does the same for Luke.

As to your "didn't the fanservice rankle?" the only time I felt it at all was when they really bluntly made a Han-shoots-first joke.

When was that? The line about always talking his way out? If so, I thought that could have applied to a lot of Han situations.

- We only see Snoke as a fifty-foot hologram. When we meet him for real, I bet he's Yoda-sized.

Heh, he just better not actually be giant. The contrast with his need to project himself huge and Yoda's size-matters-not would be pretty cool.

I wish we'd had some sort of montage in there where she was running through the streets of Philadelphia learning how to use the force.

Gonna Fly (The Falcon) Now

If fandom is a religion, and waht you're a fan of is your denomination, this film reminded me why I fell in love with my version of going to church.

Yeah, I think it was that good. Star Wars is one of the biggest things I'm truly a dedicated fan of and this was just an amazing, perfect, experience of why that fandom is a worthwhile thing to have carried with me since I was a kid. It reminds me of attending this football game with my Dad as far as a perfect fan experience. Just a few hours spent in a different, crazy, exciting world and sharing that experience with friends or family. The sharing is what makes it so special. This thread is great, thanks for posting everybody.

Random thoughts:

Rey: She is being set up to be Luke's heir, regardless of her parentage. I don't care which direction they decide to take that if they have a good story for it in mind. I think she will eventually overtake Luke as far as my favorite character in Star Wars, she is definitely my favorite from this movie. (Though I love everybody)

Poe/Finn Ship: I'd be on board with it. I loved their chemistry. "You need a pilot."

I'm glad the fat X-Wing pilot lived this time. Son of Porkins will not make the same mistakes his father did.

Also loved the wonder muffin effect.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:22 AM on December 18, 2015 [16 favorites]

I think what was interesting about Rey's character is that she continually grows more open and excited about the things she really cares about. We began with her living on her own in a pretty solitary life. If she has friends on Jakku, we never see them, and it seems most of her time is spent simply getting salvage to pay for her next meal. When she meets BB-8, she's kind of taciturn with the droid and just as ready to boot it BB-8 back on its own the next morning. When she meets Finn, again, she's a bit withdrawn, but when she's done flying the Falcon, truly excited about something she loves to do, she cannot help but overflow with excitement with Finn. The same happens when she bypasses the compression unit in the cockpit, she can't help but be excited and techy with Solo. She's obviously a lady who loves how tech works, be it fixing the bent antenna of a droid to using her skills to save Finn from a mouth with tentacles (Yeah, I guess Razors or what not are pretty much what a sarlaac looks like out of the sand!).

As time grows on and she leaves her reserved bubble, she becomes more vocal and expressive. That goes hand in hand with her decision to leave behind Jakku or rather, the belief that someday someone will return there to find her. Again, a reversal of A New Hope, she's Luke Skywalker who doesn't want to leave Tatooine, and incidentally, because she lacks a family and yearns for one that might appear someday. Rey lives everyday, waiting for a memory to return, and everyday, lives in the memory of the major conflict on Jakku, dwelling in a fallen AT-AT and surviving off other ruined weapons of the past. In a way, Rey has to overcome a world defined by the past to start living in the present.
posted by Atreides at 11:25 AM on December 18, 2015 [31 favorites]

Why would Finn be Lando's son?

Because they're being just as sneaky about his parentage as they are about Rey's, he's got a Lando-like sense of humor, and they're both black guys and there aren't a hell of a lot of black characters in the original trilogy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:32 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Metafilter: an asshole site that spoiled one plot point for me.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Why would Finn be Lando's son?

Well, they're both black, so what other reason could there be?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:40 AM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

I'm calling it: Snope is actually bigger in real life, like planet+ sized and is the main weapon in the third film of the series.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:54 AM on December 18, 2015 [26 favorites]

there aren't a hell of a lot of black characters in the original trilogy.

Maybe he's the son of Bespin Guard*.

*One of the only two Star Wars figures I had as a kid.
posted by drezdn at 12:00 PM on December 18, 2015 [16 favorites]

While I don't think we can necessarily, absolutely rule Finn out as not being Lando, Jr., I think that's much more of an idea George Lucas would consider than our current crop of the franchise's handlers. Abrams has stated he wanted a Star Wars that better represents our world today, hence the diversity of the cast. We know that Finn was taken when he was just a child to be raised/turned into a storm trooper. This would presuppose that Lando, a general at the end of Jedi would have a family living in an area exposed enough to be victim of a raid by nascent First Order troops to kidnap children for their martial purposes.

Counterargument: Supreme Commander Snopes took the time to pluck poor Ben Solo and corrupt him to the Dark Side. Granted, kids with Force powers were probably a limited selection.
posted by Atreides at 12:02 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Man I've got a lot to say and a lot of work to get done in a short amount of time today/this weekend/the foreseeable future so I'll be brief.

Rey and Finn and Poe are fantastic new leads, and Rilo Kiley is as good a villain as they deserve. Seriously, at some point during Rey's lightsaber duel, probably around being impressed with how much the choreography expressed that she had no training but was holding on just by instinct and channeling the force, I realzed what I was watching, and the thought overcame me:

"This is so important."

Rey is this generation's badass, and Daisy Ridley just killed at it from start to finish. I loved the movie for a lot of other reasons that I'll hopefully get to go into later, but that was the big one.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:03 PM on December 18, 2015 [13 favorites]

By the way: did it dawn on anyone that both C-3P0 and R2-D2 are easily over 70+ years old? That's some loving maintenance going on. They're the oldest characters in the show, minus Chewbacca and maybe Admiral Ackbar.
posted by Atreides at 12:06 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Because they're being just as sneaky about his parentage as they are about Rey's, he's got a Lando-like sense of humor, and they're both black guys and there aren't a hell of a lot of black characters in the original trilogy.

Based on the casting choices made not just for the main characters but tons of people in the background, I think The Force Awakens is trying to subvert the original trilogy's "one black guy and two white ladies in the entire universe" problem, not lean into it.
posted by bettafish at 12:06 PM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]

Maybe he's the son of Bespin Guard*.

Or that janitor from the Key and Peele sketch!

Anyway, there's that line where Maz looks into Finn's eyes and says something about seeing the same eyes in different faces. This is a franchise about dynasties, really, full of plot twists about parentage, and so far this particular episode doesn't seem much different from the previous ones. Maz's line could have just been, I don't know, metaphor, but this series tends to be pretty literal.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

For people that have kept up with the comics: could Sana be Finn's mom? From what little I know, she seems like she wouldn't mind her kid becoming a stormtrooper.
posted by drezdn at 12:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I've been too excited to post constructive and well formed thoughts. So, I'll just say:

YES!! Star Wars is back!

From a purely academic/intellectual standpoint I suppose I get some of the criticisms on plot holes, etc. But, I have to wonder if these folks have seen the original trilogy?

The climactic end ship battle was underdeveloped, which is too bad but I think more may have hurt the movie pacing. And JJ had to linger a bit too long on that closing shot. But I hardly care.

Of the whole movie, what sticks with me right now is that the interrogation scene with Rey and Kylo Ren was brilliant. The kid has a sense of style, with that deco inspired helmet and the luxurious hair, and then ... We've seen the trope before, actors trying to emote people reaching into each other's minds. Here, for me, it really worked. Rey didn't just put up a wall against Kylo Ren, she reversed on him, reached into *his* mind, and knew what *he* was thinking. And all he could do was go back and complain to 'daddy' that she was too tough for him. And I believed every bit of silence in that exchange.

Daisy Ridley played the epiphany of Rey's internal power brilliantly through the movie. If Han weren't already my favorite, then I'd be forced to admit that the scenes with Chewie were my favorite, but clearly Finn is now my tops. I think I like Rey the best. And Poe is my favorite, because he's the one I most want to be, but ... Well, this is a conundrum. I'll need to watch it again soon to "help decide".

This is a Star Wars for 2015, and I love it.
posted by meinvt at 12:14 PM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]

I really liked some of the subtle stuff they did to imply Finn was force sensitive. Pretty sure he isn't, though I see some people still have the impression he is. I could be wrong.

Anyway, for example, the scene when they are in the tent and he once again grabs Rey's hand to pull her out with him right before the TIE Fighter strikes. With the pre-suggested idea that he is a potential jedi, you see it as possibly using the force to predict and evade an attack. But really the scene was very clear and direct about what happened: He's very familiar with what TIE Fighters sound like and he heard them coming.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:21 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Crap. Just thought of this: the reason they're called the First Order and not the New Order (or something along those lines) is because they see themselves as restoring some old way of doing things. They're reactionary and fundamentalist. Not the Fresh New Order or the Order 3.0... the FIRST Order.

Also, I was used to seeing the Galactic War from the OT as being an analogue for WWII. Given waht I've seen, that war was WWI... the impetus and excuse for a defeated belligerent to rise up again and become even crueler and more destructive. THIS NEW SHIT is WWII.
posted by grubi at 12:23 PM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

He's very familiar with what TIE Fighters sound like and he heard them coming.

The book spells it out explicitly, though BB-8 heard the fighter too.
posted by drezdn at 12:24 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I really liked some of the subtle stuff they did to imply Finn was force sensitive. Pretty sure he isn't, though I see some people still have the impression he is. I could be wrong.

Yeah, I liked all of this. Finn is good with weapons because he's been trained to use them and can apply that knowledge to new situations. Rey is good with machines because she's spent her whole life taking them apart. They might be "chosen" and fulfilling destinies or whatever but they are also working hard and stumbling through problem solving. Juicy stuff!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:25 PM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

Anyway, there's that line where Maz looks into Finn's eyes and says something about seeing the same eyes in different faces.

Maybe this was a misinterpretation, but I actually read that line as a reference to what she had said earlier to Han about always running from the fight, which sort of mirrors what Finn is trying to do at that moment, and mirrors the earlier point in Han's character arc from IV when he leaves the Yavin base (only to come back in the famous climactic moment).

the comics

Can anyone who's kept up with the ancillary material like the comics and books comment on whether any of it is worth checking out? I appreciated that this movie wasn't overstuffed with exposition, but there are some pretty huge worldbuilding questions it would be nice to get some answers to... like, what's the real nature of the relationship between the Republic and the Resistance, and why does their support need to be clandestine? Are those dozen X-wings really the entirety of the Resistance "fleet"? (Seems implausible.) How did the First Order rise?

Perhaps we'll get the answers to some of these things in VIII and IX or the other spinoff movies, but the OT is pretty light on that sort of exposition and they seem to have drawn from that style as inspiration for this film, so I'd expect the same in other films.
posted by Kosh at 12:28 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I've read Aftermath, and am working on Lost Stars. Aftermath doesn't answer your questions, but does sort of set things in a direction where you can guess why some of them happened.
posted by drezdn at 12:31 PM on December 18, 2015

Maybe this was a misinterpretation, but I actually read that line as a reference to what she had said earlier to Han about always running from the fight, which sort of mirrors what Finn is trying to do at that moment, and mirrors the earlier point in Han's character arc from IV when he leaves the Yavin base (only to come back in the famous climactic moment).

I think that's possible and even possibly intentional but it could be read different/multiple ways. I guess we'll see with future movies!

I did think the refusal of the call with both Finn and Rey (at nearly the same moment) was kind of hurriedly done. I would have liked to see at least one of them leave the narrative for a little while, which would have given us better tension. But meh!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:32 PM on December 18, 2015

There is even less reason to think that Sana is Finn's mother than Lando, and I already see zero resemblance between Finn and Lando in either looks or personality. (Yes, Finn and Lando are both funny, but Finn funny because he's a genuinely sweet dork and Lando is funny because he's the sleazy suave player Han wishes he was.) And Maz Kanata's comment about resemblance seemed to refer to his then-state of mind (on preview, what Kosh said), not a physical resemblance or even a similar overall disposition to someone she'd met previously.

I really don't see any credence to any "Finn is related to one of the two other black characters" theories, and I think it'd be ... speaking generously, really sketchy if Abrams went there, at least not without a lot more set-up.

But for the record, here is what we know about the origins of the new young characters:
- Rey: Abandoned/left behind/whatever on Jakku, has been waiting for family to come back ever since. (Heavily implied Skywalker family connection, physically resemblances members of the Skywalker family and is dressed/styled to emphasize that resemblance.)
- Finn: Taken from family extremely young and raised/indoctrinated as a First Order stormtrooper with a serial number rather than a name.
- Poe Dameron: 2nd generation Rebel, probably born between ESB and RotJ. Mother was an A-wing pilot, Dad was a commando, they mustered out a few months after the Battle of Endor. (This is from the Marvel comics, and is officially canon though probably subject to retcon in later movies if Abrams so decides.)

We actually know more about Finn's upbringing and how it shaped him at this point than we did Han Solo's in ANH.
posted by bettafish at 12:35 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

I liked the water rooster-tailing when they flew "nap of the earth" over the lakes/seas, and I think that the Falcon's sliding halt in the snow was great.

I really enjoyed the movie. And I don't want to think too hard about it or I will start to get upset about waiting for the next one.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:38 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

-Stealing the plot beats from ANH was SO SO SMART you guys, because it felt familiar but refreshing in the way that it subverted your expectations about the roles the characters would play. So I've wanted episodes VII-IX since I was thirteen and first saw ANH in part because I wanted to see Luke take on the Obi-Wan role. But Luke wasn't Obi-Wan! He's Yoda. Han Solo is Obi-Wan. MIND BLOWN BRILLIANT. Other interesting subversions: Poe is Leia, the princess who sets the droid on the quest. Yeah, the new bigger biggest death star thing was dumb but I liked that they called it the Starkiller and hung a lampshade on it, that's how you gotta do it, okay? Okay.

YES. For a big chunk of it, I was thinking Poe is the new Han, Finn is the new Luke, Rey is the new Leia... obvious, right? Then after a while, watching them for another big chunk of the movie I began to shift: Poe is still Han, but Finn is like Leia and Rey is Luke. But... she's also Han (hence that strong connection; they got each other). And, well, so is Finn (how adorable was it that Han kept calling him "Big Deal"?).

Then I thought: Oh, shit, they're all a bit of each of the Big Three.

Then I thought: Hell. Yes.

She thinks Han would have been a great dad and Ben Solo is just wangsting.

Never heard this word before, but I'm stealing it. And it's true. I'm leaning towards this is all because Han was an hour late to pick Ben up from space-soccer practice that one time. Because entitled douchehoses don't need really big reasons to act like entitled douchehoses. Or wangstings.

Look Kylo Ren is going to launch a thousand tweenage fanfics. Adam Driver is lovely and dark and magnificent, his acting was perfect, he's so pained and angsty and there's this built in hope that somehow he can be turned to the light.

Darth Emo.

-Is Finn going to be Lando's son? I am guessing yes. I have no idea how I feel about that.

I hope not. There's plot convenience (like you mention) but then there's lazy writing. "Black dude... black dude!" Eh. Like there's only a handful of black people in the galaxy.
posted by grubi at 12:39 PM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

I'm glad the fat X-Wing pilot lived this time. Son of Porkins will not make the same mistakes his father did.

Naw, he's on Atkins.
posted by grubi at 12:40 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

A headcanon I love, but which would mean she dies when the Hosnian System was destroyed. RIP Mothma.

SHE WAS ON VACATION.
posted by sparkletone at 12:40 PM on December 18, 2015 [16 favorites]

I'm calling it: Snope is actually bigger in real life, like planet+ sized and is the main weapon in the third film of the series.

And he's always debunking urban legends and email chain letters!
posted by grubi at 12:41 PM on December 18, 2015 [26 favorites]

There is a character from Rebels that Finn could be related to, it would also open up the possibility for force sensitivity.
posted by drezdn at 12:42 PM on December 18, 2015

Rey is this generation's badass, and Daisy Ridley just killed at it from start to finish.

If this movie came out, as is, when I was (a straight, cis male) ten years old (that's 1984, kids), I would have pointed to the screen and said "I wanna be Rey when I grow up."

Her badassery is transcendent.
posted by grubi at 12:44 PM on December 18, 2015 [13 favorites]

Never heard this word before, but I'm stealing it. And it's true. I'm leaning towards this is all because Han was an hour late to pick Ben up from space-soccer practice that one time. Because entitled douchehoses don't need really big reasons to act like entitled douchehoses. Or wangstings.

See, but this is the thing: while we'd all like Han Solo to be our dad, would we really want Han Solo to be our dad, especially if he refused to take the biggest thing in our lives--jedi shit--seriously? Part of this might be that my major objection to the EU was the defanging of Han Solo as a character in service of making him a Great Dad and Husband. I think he'd be kind of obnoxious if he was a real dad, the kind of person who promises a lot but rarely comes through.

I think if nothing else, I can believe that the son of Han and Leia would be a total and complete rage bucket. There's a lot of Anakin in him but it might have more than a little to do with the fact that mom and dad were at each other's throats all the time.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:45 PM on December 18, 2015 [38 favorites]

Based on the casting choices made not just for the main characters but tons of people in the background, I think The Force Awakens is trying to subvert the original trilogy's "one black guy and two white ladies in the entire universe" problem, not lean into it.

Which is part of why I think he's Luke's other kid!
posted by grubi at 12:45 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Kosh, I'm really loving what I've read of Marvel's ongoing comics that start after A New Hope -- Star Wars especially gets that 1977 space fantasy vibe right down, and Darth Vader is a strangely effective mix of intra-Imperial political maneuvering, heists... in... SPACE!, and Vader having feelings. The first two arcs of each run independently but parallel, and the third is a single story told jointly between the two titles.
posted by bettafish at 12:46 PM on December 18, 2015

Rey didn't just put up a wall against Kylo Ren, she reversed on him, reached into *his* mind, and knew what *he* was thinking.

Yup. It takes massive mental fortitude to shut someone out, but she upped the ante by pushing back.

And then she went all in by REACHING INTO HIS. I mean... just... yes.
posted by grubi at 12:47 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

How early in the production did they get Harrison Ford on board? I find myself wondering whether there were earlier drafts of the story/script that had Poe Dameron fulfilling the 'likeable scoundrel' role for the middle third or so of the movie, instead of Han Solo. The Finn/Poe chemistry was great but it's surprising to realize how few scenes they actually share.
posted by usonian at 12:48 PM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

More and more I'm liking the (crazy) idea that Rey is Obi-Wan's granddaughter.

If Max Von Sydow's character also happens to be Obi-Wan's brother... all sorts of over the top parallels to ANH.
posted by 2ht at 12:48 PM on December 18, 2015 [16 favorites]

I really liked some of the subtle stuff they did to imply Finn was force sensitive.

I knew I wasn't alone!
posted by grubi at 12:48 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

When was that? The line about always talking his way out? If so, I thought that could have applied to a lot of Han situations.

Yep. Like I said, they didn't stop and look at the camera, but come on. There is a situation where he very pointedly did not talk his way out, and that is why that line got a pretty big laugh in the audience I was in.
posted by sparkletone at 12:49 PM on December 18, 2015

How did the First Order rise?

Well, if you rub it vigorously...
posted by grubi at 12:49 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Regarding the new Expanded Universe, I've read Aftermath, Lost Stars, Tarkin, New Dawn, Marvel's Shattered Empire, and while I own most of the regular Star Wars line, I haven't had a chance to read them yet. What I feel pretty comfortable saying is that for the most part, they have proven almost entirely useless in understanding the situation as it exists in The Force Awakens. There are little nuggets, like who Poe's parents were, for example, and a nod to a special "Force" tree that grew in the original Jedi Temple which Luke had sought to rescue from the Empire for planting at the new Jedi Temple (with another sapling growing up where Poe did).

Aftermath generally offered info about where the New Republic senate was going to setup shop (instead of Coruscant). It sets up the presence of an Admiral, at least a rip off of Thrawn, who's kind of a puppet master type fellow, and that's in the final few pages. May that be Snope's origin? It sets up the start of a cult for Vader...but that's it, and there's no mention of Knights of Ren.

But, for the most part, there has been nothing substantial and nothing that really fills in the questions in this movie. The fellow in the beginning, who gets cut down by Kylo Ren? NO FREAKING CLUE, despite the fact it's referenced he did something in the past of some significance or failed to do something.

If anything, the EU, tagged as "The Journey to the Force Awakens!" is really intended as a slow methodical release of information that will gradually fill in the info of the last thirty years. Perhaps the biggest help is we have an idea of the circumstances of the Battle of Jakku, which is just history rusting in the sands of the movie. It's been kind of frustrating, so right now, I'd only really recommend getting into the EU if you simply have an expressed interest in the adventures of our favorite characters. Ortherwise, better off just watching Wookipedia for updates.
posted by Atreides at 12:50 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Finn: Taken from family extremely young and raised/indoctrinated as a First Order stormtrooper with a serial number rather than a name.

Could be Boba Jr.?
posted by grubi at 12:50 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

I really liked some of the subtle stuff they did to imply Finn was force sensitive.

Count me in as a dissenter. I don't think Finn revealed any Force sensitivity.
posted by Atreides at 12:52 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

Now that I said what I said about the comics, comixology has Darth Vader #1 free for download today only, and all the first issues of the new Marvel line are for sale for a while. (Confusingly they also have a bunch of omnibus collections for the old EU/Legends continuity on discount, none of which I have read so I can't provide recs).
posted by bettafish at 12:53 PM on December 18, 2015

Count me in as a dissenter. I don't think Finn revealed any Force sensitivity.

I find your lack of... you know... you know.
posted by grubi at 12:54 PM on December 18, 2015 [21 favorites]

Could be Boba Jr.?

Ugggh I hope not.

(The Boba fanservice was probably my least favorite part of the prequels, but I've never really understood the Boba Thing.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:56 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Well, what I said was:

I really liked some of the subtle stuff they did to imply Finn was force sensitive. Pretty sure he isn't, though I see some people still have the impression he is. I could be wrong.

What I liked was how the implications he would be the one just made the dawning realization it was actually Rey so much more awesome while at the same time not hurting Finn's character at all. They set all this up in the trailer and followed through in the movie. Great example of how to use a trailer for something other than just showing a bunch of explosions/action or giving away the plot.

Even the Boba fans didn't like the Boba stuff in the prequels. My Boba obsessed friend insists on holding on to the EU canon instead.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:58 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Here's a short(?) defense I wrote about Boba Fett a couple months ago. I think it provides a good understanding of why some people (including myself) consider Fett a pretty interesting character. What Lucas did with him subsequently after Jedi is another matter all together.

What I liked was how the implications he would be the one just made the dawning realization it was actually Rey so much more awesome while at the same time not hurting Finn's character at all.

Well, that's exactly what Abrams and company wanted us to think going into the movie. Who do we see wielding a lightsaber? Finn! I definitely was open to the idea and wondering if it would be the case as I waited to watch the film.

Speaking of trailers/ads, I was surprised by a few of things that didn't show up in the movie. Perhaps the biggest fake out, Luke's altered line from the trailer about the Force being strong in his family.
posted by Atreides at 1:01 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

See, but this is the thing: while we'd all like Han Solo to be our dad, would we really want Han Solo to be our dad, especially if he refused to take the biggest thing in our lives--jedi shit--seriously?

Oh gawd, future movies are going to delve into this and Han will be revealed as a whoring, stubborn asshole who didn't pay much attention to his kid, right?

Jesus, quit trying to define backgrounds, leave mystery.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:02 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'll bet he bought those for you. I bet those were a Life Day gift. Right? You know what I got for Life Day? Oh, it was a banner fucking year at the old Solo family. I got a carton of death sticks. The old man grabbed me and said, "Hey, smoke up, Benny." All right? So go home and cry to your Daddy. Don't cry here, okay?
posted by Drinky Die at 1:07 PM on December 18, 2015 [58 favorites]

I'll bet he bought those for you. I bet those were a Life Day gift. Right? You know what I got for Life Day? Oh, it was a banner fucking year at the old Solo family. I got a carton of death sticks. The old man grabbed me and said, "Hey, smoke up, Benny." All right? So go home and cry to your Daddy. Don't cry here, okay?

Don't
don't
don't
don-on't you
forget about Shmi

(you Skywalk on by... when you call my name)
posted by grubi at 1:20 PM on December 18, 2015 [38 favorites]

There's plot convenience (like you mention) but then there's lazy writing. "Black dude... black dude!" Eh. Like there's only a handful of black people in the galaxy.

Abrams claims the leads were written "without any race in mind", which would rule out some of the lazier "obviously a Calrissian/Skywalker" variants. Add to that that Oscar Isaac mentioned somewhere how he just loved that the movie was about a bunch of people who would just have been extras in the first trilogy, so if there's some royal ancestry in there, it not clear if the actors know about it.

Rey was written as a woman, but beaten into shape by Lucasfilm's story team under Kiri Hart. Phasma was written without a specific gender, but they started looking for male actors, but later changed their minds (and if you check the story team link, Kennedy makes it clear they have big plans for Phasma in the next movie, so it's pretty safe to assume she made it out of the thrash compactor...).

More and more I'm liking the (crazy) idea that Rey is Obi-Wan's granddaughter.

There were early casting rumors that they were looking for a non-Caucasian actress to play a descendant of Obi-Wan, which was connected to both Nyong'o (who did Kanata's motion capture together with Arti Shah, both non-Caucasian, but color was obviously not a casting requirement for that bit) and Maisie Richardson-Sellers (who I think was Leia's contact at Kanata's bar). Boyega was competing with a couple of white guys (which people interpreted as the character obviously being a Skywalker), so could be that they shuffled things around when they went with him.
posted by effbot at 1:43 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

Mind. Blown.

People who didn't like this are forgetting how mediocre the acting in Episode IV or VI is, for example, when you look at them in the cold hard light of day, without those rose tinted glasses. It's too early for me to decide how high this ranks (as good as Empire, or not quite? Or even - perish the thought - better?), but do I know I came out of this movie feeling thrilled, so unlike the leaden sense of disappointment after Episode I or the anger after II or III.

This - this had heart. I cared about those people.

From way up: I think this film is for Han Solo, each of the next ones are for Leia and Luke.

If by "for" you mean "for their deaths", I'm going to have to agree. Episode VIII will be Rey training with Luke until Luke dies to protect her from a rampaging Kylo Ren; Episode IX has a fat target on Leia.

But it turns out this was the movie many of us were looking for.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:46 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

I want Leia to liiiiiive.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:51 PM on December 18, 2015 [13 favorites]

Phasma was written without a specific gender, but they started looking for male actors, but later changed their minds

I read this a bit ago and was super happy that it was a tangible example of online opinions actually have an effect, and also that good lord thankfully we have one franchise that Cumberbatch isn't in (for now, at least). Like, nothing against him personally, but does he really need to be in every single thing ever?
posted by kmz at 1:52 PM on December 18, 2015 [7 favorites]

If Finn isn't related to anyone we already know about, I think it's because he's the audience avatar.
posted by drezdn at 1:58 PM on December 18, 2015 [7 favorites]

Arguably, Leia's death in VIII could be the final card in getting Luke to leave his self-imposed exile to play a role in the confrontation with Snope in the third movie. I can't see them not using Leia in some scenes in VIII simply because she's a major leader of the Resistance and we have one character who's a major player of the Resistance and another who's pretty much signed up.

I think when it comes to ancestry, Rey's is the one really at play. We know that Luke knows that dropping your kid off on a sandy backwater is pretty good defense against Dark Side users finding them. Rey is objectively very strong in the Force and we were definitely lead to believe that she had some connection to the Skywalker family from the first trailer. We know for a fact she's not a Solo, so that leaves Luke as the father.

She is arguably very strong in the Force, a Skywalker trait, and her apparent connection to Anakin's cum Luke's lightsaber either argues for a lineage connection or the Force is simply acting through the lightsaber to bring her and Luke together. A lot of the ridiculous connections in the Star Wars franchise can be hand waved away as the Force moving people around.

Kylo Ren is actually a problem, if you think about it. He's too young. How old is he supposed to be? Adam Driver is 32. One would think that for him to be powerful enough to help or even lead an assault on the Jedi Temple under Luke, he'd have to be in his teens or 20s. That implies that Luke and the nascent new Jedi Order have only been gone a decade and stretching it to a half. That makes his absence and mythic place kind of awkward. It at least ties up with a young Rey being deposited on Jakku.

Or, alternatively, she's not related to anyone.
posted by Atreides at 1:59 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Ha, I was just saying to a friend that Rey is the audience avatar (a funny, likable, smart, massive fan of han solo and luke skywalker). I thought Finn was much better rounded as a character. Rey is a bit Mary Sue. She even gets to inherit both Luke Skywalker's lightsaber and Han's Millennium Falcon. But she's so cool that I don't care.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:00 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

She is arguably very strong in the Force, a Skywalker trait, and her apparent connection to Anakin's cum Luke's lightsaber either argues for a lineage connection or the Force is simply acting through the lightsaber to bring her and Luke together. A lot of the ridiculous connections in the Star Wars franchise can be hand waved away as the Force moving people around.

Kylo Ren is actually a problem, if you think about it. He's too young. How old is he supposed to be? Adam Driver is 32. One would think that for him to be powerful enough to help or even lead an assault on the Jedi Temple under Luke, he'd have to be in his teens or 20s. That implies that Luke and the nascent new Jedi Order have only been gone a decade and stretching it to a half. That makes his absence and mythic place kind of awkward. It at least ties up with a young Rey being deposited on Jakku.

Or, alternatively, she's not related to anyone.

This is even more of a problem if you suppose that Leia and Han were likely to know that Luke had a daughter while he was training their son. It's possible they did, and they figure out that Rey is this, but if so we're never privy to that conversation, or they just send Rey to look for her dad without telling her they're doing that, which would be strange.

Unless he had a daughter who was born after the order fell and he went into exile, but I'm thinking that Kylo Ren would have had to have gone into training really young, then. Which isn't impossible given what we know about previous generations' Jedi training but it seems weird that he would turn as, like, a tween.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:06 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Rey as Obi Wan's daughter, then? A long lost cousin? The starship abandoning her on a sandy planet is just too much of a call-out, though.

And Daisy Ridley is going to be a megastar.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:13 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is it? He could have got angry, lost control, killed some fellow apprentices and fled. Luke chases, but Snoke find him first, explains that he isn't broken, only misunderstood, encouraged him to go play evil King Arthur and form his knighthood. Luke shows his usual emotional depth and runs off to be a hermit.
posted by meinvt at 2:14 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

Which isn't impossible given what we know about previous generations' Jedi training but it seems weird that he would turn as, like, a tween

This was probably Lucas' original idea.
posted by Atreides at 2:14 PM on December 18, 2015

Rey as Obi Wan's daughter, then? A long lost cousin? The starship abandoning her on a sandy planet is just too much of a call-out, though.

She would have had to have been his granddaughter.

Is it? He could have got angry, lost control, killed some fellow apprentices and fled. Luke chases, but Snoke find him first, explains that he isn't broken, only misunderstood, encouraged him to go play evil King Arthur and form his knighthood. Luke shows his usual emotional depth and runs off to be a hermit.

I want to think that for someone to fall out of living memory, a generation is required, about 20 years. This was kind of true in the Original Trilogy, which spanned approximately 30 years between the events of RTOS and ANH. Which is why the farther back we can push Luke's flight the better it is to sustain the Jedi myth.

Though, pointedly, Luke's reason for leaving was to find the original Jedi Temple. That seemed to presuppose that he felt something could be gained by doing so, not necessarily as a purpose to excuse himself from the troubles of the galaxy.
posted by Atreides at 2:18 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Though, pointedly, Luke's reason for leaving was to find the original Jedi Temple.

Jeeze, Luke, all you have to do is take a shuttle from Tython Departures on Carrick Station.
posted by kmz at 2:21 PM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]

If they take ONE character from the EU, [Mara Jade] would be the coolest.

Incorrect. Hugo Weaving as Grand Admiral Thrawn is the correct answer.
posted by Hatashran at 2:25 PM on December 18, 2015 [24 favorites]

Hmm. Just cobbling together a possible headcanon timeline.

-30 years ago, 2nd death star destroyed, Ben Solo-Organa born soon after
-Ben's first few years of life relatively rosy but Ben seems both force gifted and increasingly volatile. Let's say he goes into Jedi training at . . . 5?
-At 10, Ben falls to the dark side, taken under the wing of emperor snoke and becomes Kylo Ren, forms the knights of Ren, Han Solo leaves, Luke goes to find the Jedi Temple
-18-20 years ago, Rey is born (the novelization puts her at 20)

Rey seems to have memories of Luke's temple planet, as well as memories of masked figures that look sort of like Ren whom I'm assuming are the knights of Ren so . . . I think this works?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:25 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Rey seems to have memories of Luke's temple planet, as well as memories of masked figures that look sort of like Ren whom I'm assuming are the knights of Ren so . . . I think this works?

I interpreted those as a Force vision, the past, the future, etc..

That's a timeline that works, but man, it still places a young Ben on running off to join the Snopes.
posted by Atreides at 2:29 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I took the morning off work today to see it at a 9am showing, ostensibly to check it out in advance for the kids but actually to see it and enjoy it in a largely kid and cheers / applause free setting. Loved it and had to resist the urge to go back in for the next screening.

I was engaged by the story, and I love the new characters. I was tickled pink when Rey, after twice refusing to be led by the hand, offers her hand to Finn to lead him out of trouble. Understated but there for you to spot and lays out who these people are without slapping you in the face. Everything the prequel trilogy was missing.

The only thing that pulled me out of the moment in the entire film was my real world familiarity with some of the landscape (which it turns out there's a video about). That's no complaint at all.

I do have a minor complaint, and it's a pretty silly one really. The opening bars of the Star Wars theme are actually from the 20th Century Fox music. From the possibly hundreds of times I have seen one or other of the OT (and even PT) movies that has been drummed and fanfared into my subconscious. Something about that felt wrong at the time and I couldn't place it. It's only from reading through this thread that I realised.

None of the new young fans, for whom this will definitely be *their* Star Wars, will notice. I'm so looking forward to going back with my nephews and nieces this weekend. I just hope they don't get spoilered like I was with Empire when that first hit the screens.
posted by vbfg at 2:29 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

Finally allowed myself to watch the Comic-Con Panel... bit emotional during Mark Hamill (yeah, we've all got a Star Wars story)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:31 PM on December 18, 2015

New Yorker review: Without [Ford] and Alec Guinness, after all, the first “Star Wars” would have been largely unwatchable; viewed again earlier this week, it came across as startlingly inept—barely written, often badly acted, and always poorly paced, with some sequences tumbling past in an embarrassed rush and others lingering like unwanted guests. Granted, the result made hundreds of millions of dollars, and acquired the patina of legend, but, still, “Star Wars” was emotionally as null as the interstellar void through which its vessels leaped.
[...]
To sum up: “Star Wars” was broke, and it did need fixing. And here is the answer.

Yeah, this movie really is *that* good.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:31 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

I am curious: Is Snoke really that big IRL? Or is he regular size?

He's actual size, but he seems much bigger to meeee...
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:34 PM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]

In the movie, do they show how Poe gets off Jakku?
posted by drezdn at 2:38 PM on December 18, 2015

Nope. He's presumed dead and then reappears in his X-wing at Maz's place.
posted by Atreides at 2:43 PM on December 18, 2015

No, but it was probably with those eyes of his and a bit of Romulan ale.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:44 PM on December 18, 2015 [22 favorites]

Oh, and I need to check out the score again. I thought it was effective but nothing blew me away. As with many people Duel of the Fates is the highpoint of the prequels for me, and one of them for the whole thing. But of course they weren't trying to evoke the kind of well trained, highly effective threat of Maul. They were seeding doubts about the level of ability and character of Ren.

It's a measure of how well they did with it that I'm thinking of things like "it was really good but I can still walk" to say about it.
posted by vbfg at 2:45 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

No, but it was probably with those eyes of his and a bit of Romulan ale.

I love the way he said "apparatus".
posted by grubi at 2:45 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

So far, the book contains at least one scene explaining what happens to him after the TIE crashes.
posted by drezdn at 2:49 PM on December 18, 2015

Saw it at 9:30 this morning, took half day off of work! I've only read about 200 of the comments, but I wanted to chime in. I mostly loved it. I thought it was both good and bad that it followed the beat of IV, because it's familiar and enjoyable and I can't not like it, but it was predictable. As soon as Han said goodbye to Leia I suspected, and as soon as he split from Chewy in the most casual, let's-meet-back-after-we-plant-some-bombs way, I knew. But even when I saw it coming I was still like nooooooo. But the same young plucky heroes and the same giant weapon and imposing Nazi-like conquerors, all felt really familiar in the best way.

I like how most of the complaints I've read are from people who never got into the series, or cranky-pants who recognized that they're cranky-pants and just wanted something way fresh.

I feel like this movie was more of a redemption of the series rather than wanting to be the next step. The next one, I expect, will be vastly different from the pacing and plot of V. This was just a statement of "Hey, that thing you loved that got ruined? Here's how you loved it in the first place, and look forward to how it'll get better."

The seeds are there for much better characterization. I can't wait to see how Ren develops, and I can't wait to see what Luke has to show Rey. And I'd even be ok if we never find out about Finn's and Poe's heritage. They are great as is, and they're fun and nervous and proud and witty and naive and I wanna see more of them already.

Leia might not have more significant roles to play, but that's fine. I'm sure she'll be there when Ren's plot hit is climax, and I'll look forward to that if what I've seen so far is any indication of the quality of that plot.

Aaahh this was just so much fun. I might actually see it in theaters again!
posted by numaner at 3:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [15 favorites]

I like to think that Rey is actually descended from Palpatine.

Because, see, we have a Skywalker child who has gone to the Dark Side, and so we have a Palpatine child who has gone to the Light Side.

She kinda looks like Leia and Padme (which was why I was absolutely convinced she was a Solo until I saw this), which could be Nabooan genetics. Not obviously Palpatine's daughter, but maybe a granddaughter or a great-granddaughter, even, and the Empire knew they had to quietly sneak her away before the Republic found out about her.

Maybe she can help bring Ben back into the Light. Maybe she'll need to stop him. I am so excited by all the possibilities that I don't even have words.

(Except for focusing on Poe and Finn's jacket of love. Oh my god, I had hoped from the trailer, but eeeeeeeeeee...)
posted by Katemonkey at 3:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [38 favorites]

Oh yeah, I looked up Darth Plagueius and fell into a rabbit hole concerning what happened to Maul after APM.

I can actually see Maul being Snoke, just because all the stuff I've read indicates how messed up he might be physically, with a half robot body and his face getting bashed in every battle with Sidious.

But since the EU aren't canon, I can only hope.
posted by numaner at 3:13 PM on December 18, 2015

>I like to think that Rey is actually descended from Palpatine.

...

I fucking love it.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:14 PM on December 18, 2015 [12 favorites]

Well, where was Poe?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:17 PM on December 18, 2015

Loved it and had to resist the urge to go back in for the next screening.

Yes! It's so strange to have that "how can I get my parents to take me to see that again" feeling as a grown up. I'm racking my brain and can't think of a single movie I've seen in the theater that's given me the "Man, I want to watch that again right now" rush since Return of the Jedi when I was a kid.

I did drag myself back to see The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones a second time each in the theater, but those rewatches were more like, "I have to be sure that this really was as disappointing as it seemed the first time around."
posted by usonian at 3:21 PM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

Kylo Ren looks like Josh Groban, especially in the bridge scene. I wanted Han to drag Ren off with him when he fell.
posted by wenestvedt at 3:24 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

I've heard some talk that Williams didn't live up to his reputation on this one. All I have to say to that is Rey's Theme.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:25 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

The Poe/Finn shipping is fun, but fantasy is about all we get when it comes to any queer relationships in the Star Wars movies. It's 2015, and we still have yet to see a single lgtb character anywhere in this huge universe. I loved the way at least one anonymous stormtrooper who reported to Kylo Ren in passing had a woman's voice; it shows how easy it was for Abrams to work in a naturally diverse cast when he put his mind to it.

But the same still doesn't hold for even a single openly queer member of any species anywhere in Star Wars. How long will we have to wait? 2017? 2025?

Fuck that shit.
posted by mediareport at 3:32 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Kylo Ren looks and acts like Nick Sobotka with force powers.
posted by MarchHare at 3:35 PM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

Ehh, I got more Ziggy.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:36 PM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

Not only does the Empire/First Order keep building massive planet destroying boondoggles, they keep sticking frickin' Turbo Lasers on them!
posted by schoolgirl report at 3:45 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

That one general looked like a combination of Ron and Malfoy.

He played Bill Weasley in the Potter movies, I'm told.

I'm still processing but I enjoyed it. Cried not when Han died (I had been spoiled but saw it coming anyway) but when Leia felt it, and again when she hugged Rey. But I feel like I love it in a cooler, Jedi kind of way. Not in hot blood, just the satisfaction of seeing Star Wars done right for a new generation. Sort of like the feeling I get from Clone Wars and Rebels. I don't feel the urge to nitpick to death even though I could, so that's a good sign. And not a lot of zomg I hated how they treated the female characters, other than Not Enough Leia, so there's that over other blockbuster series (I'm looking at you, Marvel). I hope the sequel can live up to it.
posted by immlass at 4:02 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Can't wait to see more waves of Mefites show up to react as the weekend moves on.

It was awesome guys, wasn't it AWESOME?
posted by Drinky Die at 4:04 PM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

Oh, also, my first thought on finding out that Han was buying it (no surprise, since he had the Obi-Wan role): No wonder Ford has been so cheerful on this press tour. It's his last time!
posted by immlass at 4:08 PM on December 18, 2015 [13 favorites]

I was blown away by the acting in this movie! I loved Attack the Block so I knew John Boyega was going to bring it, but I did not expect to love Adam Driver in this as much as I did. He really brought all the subtle skills necessary to make Kylo Ren a fully realized character.

My only complaint was that my 3D glasses kept fogging up because of all the tears coming out of my eyeballs.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:17 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

BMD has a nice overview of the political situation in the galaxy, pulling together everything we know about the First Order, the Republic, and the Resistance from canonical tie-in media: What The Hell Is The Story With The Resistance And The First Order In THE FORCE AWAKENS?
posted by Ian A.T. at 4:25 PM on December 18, 2015 [7 favorites]

Some thoughts:

- If Rey turns out to be Luke's daughter, I will throw a Kylo Ren-sized tantrum. Enough with the parents and children, one's plenty.

- I hope Finn is not Force-sensitive. I'll be ok with it if he is, but it would be way better if he were not.

- Rey and Kylo Ren are going to do it.

- I was so taken by the new characters that I am honestly annoyed that Han Solo is the star for much of the action. This is an area where I think fanservice let the film down a little bit: yeah, it's great for fans to get closure on his whole story and Leia and everything, but once he does, he doesn't have anything to do but die. I think it would have been much more interesting to kill him before they get to Leia, so that that death has some weight and actually takes something away from someone. As it stands, his death was so clearly telegraphed by the staging, and most of us know that Harrison Ford is over it already, that it didn't feel like much to me, more just escorting him out of the building. We don't have enough history between him and Ren for that to have felt more than perfunctory. I wanted more time with the new people. To be clear, I'm not complaining that he died, just frustrated that he had so much screen time for an ostensibly supporting role.

- On that note, I very much hope that Leia and Luke remain backgrounded figures, elder narrative statesmen with some guidance but not jumping into the middle of the action. I've been watching their story for 30 years. I like their story, but I got closure on it. More new people, less old people.

- Some of the visuals were super great. Black X-Wing leading the charge, red v. blue in the twilight of a dying star, the swooping shot which introduces the hermitage planet. One review I read described Abrams as "an undeniably gifted visual storyteller" and on the strength of this I'd agree.

- Honestly, the way the Force works, if you go 48 hours without a massively convenient coincidence it probably means you've strayed from the path.

- Kylo Ren is not scary, but he could be, and that's really interesting to me. Having the main antagonist be going on a parallel journey of self-discovery to the protagonists creates a lot of opportunities. That's a story we haven't seen too much of before.

- Finn's great, Poe's a nice variation on the rogue archetype (what if you gave Wedge Antilles a personality?), but Rey is the baddest ass to ever ass a bad. Easily the coolest hero Star Wars has had in my estimation, magnetic inside the first five minutes, and such a joy to watch. She gets scared without getting overwhelmed, she gets angry without getting shrill, she gets to run through a lot of emotional beats with believably mixed results, she's a real person and I buy it. I was saying above that Han's death was highly telegraphed and felt ho hum to me. Conversely, Rey's taking up of the lightsaber is also highly telegraphed and a euphoric shot anyway. Unlike the death, it feels more like an earned moment. I am genuinely happy and pleased for Daisy Ridley, she deserves all the acclaim she's going to get. It's not just a redemptive performance for the series after a disappointing Anakin, it's a great performance on its own. I am so amped up to see what happens with her next, for both values of "her".

- An exchange I had with a friend:
Friend: You think [Rey]'s going to learn to use a double saber? She already uses a staff.
Me: I would be all the way down for that. "Master Luke, I have brought you your lightsaber...because it's just not enough saber for me, did I mention that I'm incredible?"

- I wish this movie wasn't so aware that it is the first in a new series. A more defined story for this episode would have been nice. The death planet retread is pretty yawn-worthy. Fellowship of the Ring is still the model for me of a first-in-trilogy movie that still tells a story in and of itself. Much of this movie is just moving the pieces into place, which is fine but not very satisfying. It is very possible that after taking in the whole trilogy, I'll feel more affection for this episode on its own. Right now it's a B. On the other hand, I already have plans to go see it again and measure my initial reactions, so I doubt they care what grade I give it, they're getting my money.
posted by Errant at 4:35 PM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]

I was hoping as Rey was hiking on Craggy Island that she'd come across Father Ted.
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 4:59 PM on December 18, 2015 [24 favorites]

Rey is the baddest ass to ever ass a bad. Easily the coolest hero Star Wars has had in my estimation, magnetic inside the first five minutes, and such a joy to watch.

I've been a Luke guy for thirty some years, and I find myself rethinking that in the past 48 hours. What a character, what a performance.

You can't underestimate just how well the casting/acting was across the board.

I haven't cried in a movie theater in a long time. Way to go J.J.
posted by Sphinx at 5:16 PM on December 18, 2015 [12 favorites]

So me and my husband were talking. When the Troopers report to Kylo that BB-8 escaped Jakku with a "girl," was it just us or did he really have a strong response to that? Like he may already have had an idea who the "girl" was? It stood out to both of us separately.
posted by Windigo at 5:28 PM on December 18, 2015 [22 favorites]

Yeah, he turned from rage smashing equipment to choking the officer at that point IIRC. Not sure what that means.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:48 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

That New Yorker review was the New Yorker-iest New Yorker review possible, short of hauling Pauline Kael out of carbon freeze.
posted by entropicamericana at 5:57 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

The Jedi story of Episodes 1-2-3-4-5-6 is that every Jedi must constantly struggle against the desire to turn dark, because it's a natural impulse that tempts all of them. I love the idea that Episodes 7-8-9 will be about the fundamental untenability of building an everlasting evil empire because light is an equally strong temptation.

The Jedi of 1-2-3 are a huge faction compared with the Sith. The Jedi of 4-5-6 are basically balanced. 7-8-9 seems to be setting up the Knights of Ren as a Darkside version of the Jedi Order. Perhaps the lesson Luke learns from this will be to only ever have one apprentice at a time, as the Sith did.
posted by pwnguin at 6:07 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is the Knights of Ren thing something that they mention in the movie, or is it background from other media? Because if it's in the movie, I missed it.
posted by Errant at 6:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Iw thinking about this, and the prophecy.. If we assume like is the one to bring balance to the force, perhaps it's less balance in light vs dark practitioners, but balance within the practitioners themselves

Help the baddies to come towards the light, help the goodies to not fear their own emotions.
posted by coriolisdave at 6:11 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

I just want to point out that right now, you can lie in bed (well I can, it's a Saturday morning still) and hit refresh every hour and watch The Force Awakens fandom add new stories and read them in real time. When I woke up it was 129, and now it's 151. Poe/Finn are doing very nicely.

This reminds me in a bittersweet fandom memory of a friend messaging me to say "Hey, you have to check out this Obi Wan/Qui-Gon thing, there's like a hundred stories already!"
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:14 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'm wondering if anyone else felt this:

During the fight scene between Rey and Ren, there's a distinct cinematographic flip when she gains the upper hand. The framing changes to show her as dominant, and she does this hyper-aggressive shoulder stance as she's walking forward.

Almost... too aggressive. As in, the framing becomes so Rey dominant that it actually looked like she was exploring the dark side. It wasn't just "the tables have turned" but it was like, "holy shit, this person has an insane amount of power, and doesn't know the full consequences."

Which I found to be incredible. Exactly what you'd expect when someone suddenly realizes how much violence they are capable of. They might take it just a little too far.

----

Secondarily, my favorite call-back to Episode I was when Rey's trying to get them in the "much faster" pod racer, which is promptly blown up. So then she get's them in the "trash", aka the goddamn Millennium Falcon. Fuck yes!!!!
posted by special agent conrad uno at 6:28 PM on December 18, 2015 [40 favorites]

Holy missed the edit window and have regrets, batman. "Assume LUKE is the one"
posted by coriolisdave at 6:28 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

But the same still doesn't hold for even a single openly queer member of any species anywhere in Star Wars. How long will we have to wait? 2017? 2025?

The book, Aftermath, features several gay characters, which is one of the reasons some fanboys got so up in arms over it. It was majorly pushed as the premiere next EU installment by Disney. A gay character in a movie probably isn't as far away as you might think.

Errant, they're mentioned once by Snope and shown in Rey's vision, but otherwise that's the only references made anywhere to them.
posted by Atreides at 6:37 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'm reading the novelization. You get to read what BB-8 is thinking at various points.

"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was manufactured, and what my lousy programmers were like, and how my masters were occupied and all before they bought me, and all that kind of crap, but I don't feel like going into it. .."
posted by Ian A.T. at 6:38 PM on December 18, 2015 [45 favorites]

Saw it this afternoon and really enjoyed it. My hopes were pretty low so anything better than the prequels would have been enough for me but Abrams and co. did a great job. The overall plot is kind of a dumb retread but the new characters are great and I'll admit that I got pretty teary when Han went even though I knew it was going to happen. Can't wait for the next one.
posted by octothorpe at 7:15 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm wondering if anyone else felt this:

Yep, my thoughts as the roles were reversing was "she is certainly learning how to tap into her hate". Some of those strikes were real hacks, not the kind of flowing moves associated with the prequel Jedi.
posted by Errant at 7:18 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Just saw this.

- Finn: I'm going to go with Force adept, siding on the good, which is what tripped him up fighting - watching his squad mate die, blood on his visor. Ren even pauses, looks over at this soldier standing there, as if he senses something (he also senses when Han Solo is on his planet/space base) - and immediately knows which soldier is the one that needed reconditioning before his serial number was brought up. He might not be able to be a full on Jedi, but he managed to wield a light saber (kind of like how Han was rumored, and in the EU had, Force powers - For Han it meant he eventually got around to doing the right thing, with Finn, it might be because the Right Thing was so directly obvious to him it led him easier?).

- Rey: I really hope she isn't a direct descendent of Anakin. Maybe one of the few remaining Jedi in training that survived the slaughter, dropped off by Luke's direction somewhere on a planet (again, showing the easy corruption of privilege - people who are elevated to Knighthood as a child can be corrupted, those who learn to live by their own means appreciate life more). Also a total badass, child hood prodigy, a little bit of the Skywalker traits are in her - so she might just be that. Obviously not Ren's sister - I can't see Leia hiding that from her, and I'd assume if she was a Skywalker, there would have been some bigger moments with Leia. Unless in VIII they are going to do "on her death bed, Leia tells Rey that Luke was her father" or something.

- Ren: Man do they have the angry teenager / Jedi that Anakin was supposed to be in Prequels down. I think he might be insufferable for those of us who have already gone through puberty to have to watch him (was it just me thinking that his face even looked like it was breaking out a bit? Maybe thats the corrupting powers of the dark side first sign: horrible acne). I didn't even pay attention to who the actor was before watching this, so I was taken back by the pimply faced youth under the "I'm a big bad Vader fan boy" mask. I like how his mask was beat up - he's cargo culting / fanboying everything himself - tons of power, no focus (a mix of Solo and Skywalker?). I'm imagining theres going to be a force mind meld thing in future series where he may see it wasn't Luke who killed Anakin, but Anakin who killed Palpatine and died in the process.

- Han: loved all of him, was upset when he was killed, but knew it was coming the moment he stepped out onto the bridge. Ford obviously wanted done with the series, the option could have been Ren going "sure, I won't be a bad guy, lets go" and then Solo has to sacrifice himself to blow up the death planet? But really, whats the legal process for re-integrating a Sith? "sure you slaughtered entire villages, including all your classmates, but now that you say your sorry, that's cool"

- BB-8: He makes a fucking purring sound. I don't care, he is awesome.

- Clones: there is threat to use them, I don't know if they are expensive / untrusted, or if there is some power struggles going on with Dude Who Gave the Speech who runs the "steal children and turn them into soldiers" division and the dudes who run the clone vats.

I want to see this again, this time for all the references. I've not felt this excited after leaving a movie in a really, really, long time. My coworker and I were both excitedly talking about it as we drove to the airport.

I wonder if the toxins killing stormtroopers thing will come back later.

I am also super pumped the most badass Jedi in the series in a woman.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:44 PM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]

I had assumed Han Solo dies in the movie because Harrison Ford seemed to be doing a victory lap on the press tour and seemed to be enjoying the hype but I was still crying in the theater when it happened. Actually, I was crying from the moment the music started at the very beginning. Some of it was happy, crying while grinning and some of it was sad, snotty crying but there was still a lot of crying.
posted by Burn.Don't.Freeze at 8:55 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Rey is so Luke's daughter, y'all. Sorry for everyone aboard the Rey/Kylo Snape ship but space incest is even less likely than space gay. I actually think we will see a gay couple but they'll probably be some background Resistance characters in an established relationship. Finn and Poe will only have a bromance because Disney is not that cool.

That said, I think the popular fandom ships will be (in order of popularity): Kylo Snape/General Ron Malfoy, Kylo Snape/Rey, Kylo Snape/Poe, Finn/Poe, Finn/Rey, and Rey/Poe.
posted by bgal81 at 9:05 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

The book, Aftermath, features several gay characters, which is one of the reasons some fanboys got so up in arms over it. It was majorly pushed as the premiere next EU installment by Disney.

That a recent book in the new Disney universe included an openly queer character as a matter of course is really fine news. Thanks, Atreides. I nosed around and found this interview with the author of Aftermath, which also mentions that last April's Lords of the Sith had a lesbian Imperial officer, apparently as a supporting character:

In the new novel Star Wars: Aftermath, author Chuck Wendig takes another step forward for diversity, introducing a major gay character to the mix: the Imperial turncoat Sinjir Rath Velus.

He’s not the first gay character to turn up in the new canon. That distinction belongs to last April’s Lords of the Sith novel by Paul S. Kemp, which introduced fans to Moff Delian Mors, a lesbian Imperial officer who feels adrift after her wife is killed in an accident. But Sinjir Rath Velus holds the distinction of being the first major hero in a Star Wars story to come from an LGBT background.

About time. Guess we'll see if any kind of queer character (a relatively interesting one would be nice) shows up in the next movie. One damn well should.
posted by mediareport at 9:05 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Re: Kylo Ren, I loved loved loved his mask, and the fact that it was called out twice as an affectation. That kind of "branding," especially borrowed branding pretending to honor the invented myths of a bygone age, is so much a part of the fascism he's made himself the dragon for. But my friend, who's now seen it twice, pointed out to me tonight that Kylo's hilt-saber also wavers a lot more than Luke's does. I need to check this for myself, but if so, it suggests 1.) that he made it himself, which of course he would hve, and 2.) a parallel to how wobbly with the Force Kylo himself is.

Guys, I think this installment might have been really good.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:27 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]

Oh, and watching Han walk out on the bridge gave me the same feeling as seeing Frank Sobotka go out to meet The Greek.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:30 PM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I liked this. So much so that I decided at the last minute to see it again tonight. Still just as good, love Rey and Finn and Poe even more, maybe.

(One thing I did note make sure to note, it does seem like Luke is standing next to a gravestone or something.)
posted by kmz at 9:46 PM on December 18, 2015

I should add that, as much as I hope that Rey is not Luke's daughter, because we all know that would cheapen her character, I hope that Kylo's arc is not a redemptive one, or at least not in the Vader vein of things.I do, however, hope that Finn's arc becomes one of fomenting rebellion within the stormtroopers, because that would be new, and awesome to watch.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:28 PM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

I will seriously freak out in the worst way if Rey ends up being Luke's daughter. Like, ugh. UGH. Find a new fucking story, jesus christ. Abrams is a very genre-savvy dude, though, I do not think he would do this. I also think it would be super weird if Maz, who definitely knows shit, basically says to her, "I know that you're waiting for your parents, and you know as well as I do that they're not coming back. Now, put that behind you and go find Luke who is your father, surprise lol."

I share mediareport's skepticism about Disney's moral courage or lack thereof, but I would absolutely love it if dashing rogue Poe Dameron was gay. I don't think they've really solidified anyone's sexuality, other than a few smoldering looks and a hug that maybe lasts too long, so while I agree it will definitely not happen, it could still happen.

A thought, based on how deliberate the callbacks and retreads were: when Luke goes to find the last Jedi Master in the galaxy after his big fight in the snow, he finds the lightiest-of-light-side Yoda in the swamps of Dagobah, a planet shrouded by the dark side. When Rey goes to find the last Jedi Master in the galaxy after her big fight in the snow, she goes to a pristine, beautiful, isolated planet seemingly made for the light...so what kind of Jedi is she going to find there?
posted by Errant at 10:34 PM on December 18, 2015 [18 favorites]

So you guys, what if Rey starts to train with Luke but Luke actually just doesn't have that much to teach her? Or, at least, not enough? I mean, Luke is awesome, but he's not Yoda. Yoda was Pai Mei. In terms of what we saw Luke do in the OT, is he even The Bride in that context? And Rey looks to potentially have far more power than anyone has seen in some time. I'm sure Luke will give it his all, but wait... there is another...

Maybe this is Leia's calling. After all, the galaxy has had force-sensitive warriors in the past. A great many of them. Maybe what Rey needs to learn is how to lead. How to Rule.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:29 PM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

Is the Knights of Ren thing something that they mention in the movie, or is it background from other media? Because if it's in the movie, I missed it.

It's mentioned in passing, when Supreme Leader expresses disappointment in Kylo Ren, and mentions grabbing one droid shouldn't be any trouble for a member of the Knights of Ren. There's also a brief cut of of Kylo and circle of similarly outfitted people during Rey's visions. But I think the trailers and marketing might have raised concsiousness of it.
posted by pwnguin at 11:31 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

There's also a brief cut of of Kylo and circle of similarly outfitted people during Rey's visions.

There's also a shot of her meeting Kylo in the snowy wood. Can we (hope hope hope) extrapolate from this clearly prophetic vision that the vision of the Island didn't come from her memory?
posted by Navelgazer at 11:36 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, where was Poe?
*Book Spoilers*
According to the book, when the TIE fighter got shot down, Poe came through just enough to slow the descent, so he landed it ok. His jacket was stuck in the webbing and that's why he left it behind.

He starts walking and eventually runs into a non-human scavenger. The non-human scavenger talks to him and then they get attacked by other scavengers. Poe saves them by doing some fancy driving with the scavenger's speeder.

The scavenger mentions Rey's town as a place to go, but says they're not going there because he doesn't get along with the guy who runs it. Instead, he offers to take Poe to a friend of his who can get Poe off Jakku.
posted by drezdn at 1:25 AM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

One thing that really stuck out to me was the fact that only one member of the First Order whose face is shown is not a white male human, and he immediately deserts to the side with a fair number of women, PoC, and alien races.
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:04 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Also, did anyone else feel like maybe the scriptwriting got a little too cute at times with the fourth wall? The name "starkiller base" seems like an obvious shout-out to "skywalker ranch," especially given Lucas's original name for Luke, and I couldn't help but notice "star one down!" shortly after the death of the character played by the top-billed actor.

Not necessarily complaining, admittedly. Kinda ambivalent in a way.
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:10 AM on December 19, 2015

Oh I was so on board in the first half or so! Almost everything was amazing and I loved it.

I thought it sort of progressively got worse as it went along, somehow. It seems roughly like things start going downhill at Maz's, and it never really gets good again. By the end it's like they were filming a rough draft, entirely out of decent dialogue or any kind of cinematic cleverness. It starts off an A movie and ends up a C.

For example, the spaceship stuff where Rey steals the Falcon is fantastic (and the TIE getaway before that was superb as well!) ... but then final battle is sooo cruddy. There's no dramatic framing, it's like they figure out a plan in 2 minutes, hop in their (not many) ships and go, then they're there and doin stuff. It fails to capture any sense of a battle or raid. Ships fly around and it's just chaos cinema really. Fly around, sort of shoot generally at a big thing.. somewhere.. And like, I think the boring ass facility where Adam Driver and Harrison Ford have their catwalk showdown is the same place that Poe Blando flies his X-Wing inside, shooting up shit? And he knows it's the way in because of exposition? It's horribly shown. By that point, visually, the movie is kinda garbage. The fact that the Death Star 3.0 can apparently shoot through hyperspace feels like the ultimate copout, the ultimate surrender to can't be arsed to put things in places in relation to each other.

On a smaller scale of criticism, I was really just surprised at Maz and Big Bad Sith's character designs. They were so bad, so boring and cheap looking, that I felt embarrassed. Despite the design, they were also bad characters.

I'm very much in love with Rey and Finn. Not so much Poe, who is just a smiling blank. Actually, everyone's a little.. soft, too likable; there's not really any sparks.
posted by nom de poop at 2:24 AM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

wait a friend tells me I'm very wrong about the First Order, and that many women and PoC were in the bridge crew so whoops
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:27 AM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Thank you for this thread. So many of my thoughts put into words, so I have less to type! :D

One thought I had while watching the movie that I haven't seen mentioned here or elsewhere: what if the Star Wars galaxy is something akin to the Firefly galaxy in size. I'm not a huge Firefly fan (only watched the series once and enjoyed it), but I was under the impression that the Firefly "galaxy" is kinda a bunch of plants around a single star. Really close together. And I was thinking that you can hand-wave away the "how'd they get there so fast" and "how'd the star-killer laser travel to a new system so fast" stuff with the galaxy being kinda small with the stars being close together or having tons of planets around them. Or even something like a Sins of a Solar Empire universe (for those that have played it).

Yes, yes, it's not physics. But Star Wars is fantasy with a veneer of science so it could work. Well, at least in my head it's that way.

On the movie: yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm on board. Rey, Finn, and Poe...lead on. I will follow!
posted by snwod at 3:53 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Just saw a great John Boyega quote (which has probably been quoted already elsewhere but I like it) giving his reaction to the fact that there were people who couldn't handle a person of color in the STAR WARS canon:

"People make stupid comments, but that’s not going to stop me. I’m in Star Wars, so they can just sit down and eat that for a second."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:16 AM on December 19, 2015 [41 favorites]

I keep calling it the New Order too, at least in part because I'm currently spending a lot of time in the game worlds of the Old Republic and so as to contrast etc.

I kind of really want for the Mon Calamari in the Resistance to be a different guy than Ackbar. "What, do we all look the same to you? Racism is a trap, my friend."
posted by Errant at 6:12 AM on December 19, 2015 [19 favorites]

All the box office records will be broken.

This part was interesting:

And in a sign indicating the movie will have an especially long run at multiplexes, opening day audiences have given “The Force Awakens” an A CinemaScore — including an A+ grade among women and A+ scores with audiences under 18 and under 25.

In another article published Friday about Thursday preview audiences, Variety said, "The gender split was 70% male, 30% female; 51% of the audience was over 25."
posted by mediareport at 6:29 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

When my son was 4 he showed all the signs of being a Sith Lord. Or at least a cranky dark wizard.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:37 AM on December 19, 2015 [18 favorites]

Poor Chewie: his friend and boss dies, and he still can't get his own ship. Always a hairy bridesmaid, &c.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:51 AM on December 19, 2015 [17 favorites]

I got pulled out of the story each time there was an obvious callback, when it felt like there was a split second pause where they expected the audience to laugh or cheer or whatever. And where I was watching, almost NONE of these elicited an audible reaction.

(To be fair I was at a tech company client event at 9:00 am on Friday -- I took a vacation day -- and the theater was scarcely half full.)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:54 AM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure that's bad. We saw it at 3:30 on Friday, when (as I like to call them) the dirty people are at work, and the theater was maybe 1/4 full. But there was the usual hum of people babbling and then really thunderous trailers so I've no idea and people babbling again and then LUCASFILM LTD came on the screen and the place went fucking *silent*.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:10 AM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

The LUCASFILM LTD sign and the opening fanfare is more likely to get applause at the night showings.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:25 AM on December 19, 2015

I missed the 20th/21st Century Fox fanfare though. Thank goodness they didn't just swap in the Disney fanfare instead.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:50 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

I love the idea that you could pin down what counts as "increasingly volatile" from a four year old. "Hmm... he's given to outbursts and rage, showing none of the restraint or good judgement most four-year-olds are known for. Perhaps he's a Sith?"

"He was so normal except for the ewok bodies we kept finding skinned in the backyard."
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:54 AM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

Then, we see *blood* for the first time in a Star Wars movie.

...other than the Cantina scene, when Ben cuts off an arm?
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:09 AM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

The LUCASFILM LTD sign and the opening fanfare is more likely to get applause at the night showings.

I saw it on Thursday night in the UK, where I think we are generally less given to audible appreciation but there was a definite buzz for the 'A long time ago...' and Star Wars logo at the beginning and for the parsecs callback. Probably a couple of others but I can't remember which.
posted by biffa at 8:14 AM on December 19, 2015

Did anyone get any interesting trailers? Literally none at the 7:30pm showing on Thursday were new. However, there were remarkably few of them and other commercials, the movies started only 10 minutes after the assigned time, which is like a damn miracle.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:31 AM on December 19, 2015

At UA Court St. in Brooklyn there were so many trailers the crowd started angrily booing them.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:35 AM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Oh, and the only one anybody remembered or liked was Zoopolis. (And maybe Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.)
posted by Navelgazer at 8:35 AM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Thanks to /r/starwarsleaks and Making Star Wars, I was about as spoiled on this as I could be. Here's my take as an old guy who grew up loving the OT and hates the prequels:

It was good, very enjoyable, but did not get as choked up as I expected. It is very much a product of its time with all of the good and bad that entails.

Certain elements felt very much Corporate Targeting and Marketing 101.
I liked Rey, but she's a bit of a Mary Sue, isn't she? She's good in a physical brawl, good at climbing, can speak Astromech, good with technology, an amazing pilot, can handle a blaster, uses the Force well without any training, and excellent with a lightsaber. Am I missing anything? Is there anything she was shown as trying and not being particularly good at? Compare against Luke, who took two movies and training by Obi-Wan and Yoda to get even close to where she is already at. I already like her, she doesn't have to be perfect at everything from the start!
I liked Finn. Probably more than Rey because he had an arc and wasn’t good at everything. He couldn't pilot a TIE. He struggled with choices: refusing to slaughter innocents, wanting to run and hide, but he ended up doing the right thing. His paternalism towards Rey didn't make any sense as a character, since the First Order seemed to be pretty equal opportunity. It was there so they could show Rey didn't need it. And it's fine that she doesn't need it, just don't fucking shoehorn it so it looks like pandering.
Poe was great, from the start. Confident, brave, dashing. Loved his first line with Kylo Ren.
Kylo was very well done, scary and unhinged but sort of pitiable, too.
Chewie got some great "lines" and moments. This felt like the Chewie I know and love. ROTS’ shoehorned-in rando in a Chewbacca did not.
BB-8... Completely adorable. I want one.
Luke. Weathered, craggy, weary, a little broken down, but still standing. Hamill said a lot in those moments with just his eyes.
The Falcon. Oh, how I've missed you, you beautiful hunk of junk!
Han. As someone who also has another 30 years of life under my belt since I last saw him, this is the portrayal I am most impressed by. This is our old pirate, but the bluster and bravado of the young man we met in the Mos Eisley cantina is gone. He has regrets, but he also knows exactly who he is, what he is, what he can do, and he's comfortable with it and himself. I loved watching him get to know Rey (again?) and love her.

Thoughts/nitpicks on the film:

It seemed like it moved a little too quickly. There were moments where it would have benefited from letting certain moments breathe. That’s one of the ways this film was very much a product of its time.
I also felt like it was just a little more “XTREME” in a way that I wasn’t 100% comfortable with. (I realize this is very subjective.
A little too fanservicey for my liking, but I don’t think any of it was illogical and overly forced like the prequels were.
Visually, it’s breathtaking. Top three of the saga and I could be persuaded to place it in the top two.
Felt like Rey and Finn were treading dangerously close to the Dark Side there at the end.
The lightsaber battles felt like battles again and not dance routines.
I enjoyed the humor and it all worked for me, but I wonder how it will hold up in repeat viewings. It probably had the most humor out of any Star Wars movie, I think.
Some moments felt like they were padded for audience reaction. I could almost see characters rocking back on the heels like an actor in a 70s sitcom waiting for the studio applause to die down. Loved the production design.
I agree, there is no way this was the first time Han fired a bowcaster. He should have stuck with his blaster.
I liked how this film trusted the audience more than the prequels, but maybe not as much as ESB. Not everything was explained, and it didn't need to be. We didn't need to know exactly how Poe got off Jakku, how Maz ended up with the sabre, etc.

I’m very concerned about why this film didn’t make me *feel* as much as the OT does or even Star Trek 2009. I don’t think it’s a case of being spoiled, but maybe it is, I don’t know. I’ll be seeing it again, anyway.

tl;dr: Basically, better than any of the prequels and overall, probably a more solid film than ROTJ, although ROTJ hits heights that this one still couldn’t touch.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:04 AM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

It seemed like it moved a little too quickly.

My husband and I have been discussing this, and I think there are a lot of comments out there to this effect. I feel like we're seeing a much longer script cut down, which of course leaves me wondering if we'll get a LOTR style "directors cut" longer version on DVD.
posted by anastasiav at 9:26 AM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm calling it: Snope is actually bigger in real life, like planet+ sized and is the main weapon in the third film of the series.

When he first appeared on the screen, the kid behind me in the theater gasped audibly and said, "Dad! Voldemort!" The whole audience laughed.
posted by thivaia at 9:33 AM on December 19, 2015 [37 favorites]

> His paternalism towards Rey didn't make any sense as a character, since the First Order seemed to be pretty equal opportunity. It was there so they could show Rey didn't need it.

I don't think the First Order encourages social interactions at all among their Storm Troopers, also Finn see's Rey as a civilian to be protected - he had already witnessed a slaughter and didn't want to see someone who he just met die. He obviously has no problem killing when needed (light saber through the chest, etc), but he's also grown up witnessing the horrible efficiency of the First Order's killing machines, doesn't want himself or anyone around him to suffer that, hence "we have to run".
posted by mrzarquon at 9:34 AM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Abrams is a very genre-savvy dude, though, I do not think he would do this.

Rian Johnson will write and direct the next one, and will also write the third episode (at least the treatment). But sure, they'll build on "certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts" set up by Abrams/Kasdan, but I doubt they're at a point where nothing can be changed if they come up with a better idea.

"He was so normal except for the ewok bodies we kept finding skinned in the backyard."

That's extra creepy for those of us who's only read the spoilers.
posted by effbot at 9:41 AM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Maybe this is Leia's calling. After all, the galaxy has had force-sensitive warriors in the past. A great many of them. Maybe what Rey needs to learn is how to lead. How to Rule.

GOOSEBUMPS. Third wave feminist goosebumps.

Oh god please let the real story not be "how to be a wizard" but "how to be a princess."
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:50 AM on December 19, 2015 [23 favorites]

So Lor San Tekka (Max von Sydow) is probably Kanan from Rebels, right?

After screwing up with Ben Solo, Luke was all "back to basics" with new Jedi training so he placed Little Rey on a desert planet with a Wise Old Man she could contact when the time was right, but instead he ends up getting killed before they meet.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:51 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

I went to a corporate showing, which was weird, but, like, there was no line waiting. But also no trailers, which was kind of amazing and helped with big punch effect of that good first third of the movie.
posted by ignignokt at 10:01 AM on December 19, 2015

A couple other thoughts:

-Dohmnall Gleason's character ("Hax"? ..."Hux") and Kylo Ren are both so young. I think we're meant to read this as the product of brutal ambition, but honestly everyone in the First Order except Snoke seems to be super young. Shallow talent pool, was my impression. Not doing as well as they imply they are.

-So is it canon, or agreed-upon, that the Resistance is a covertly funded organization? That's fascinating if so -- I love the idea of Leia ultimately taking the path of the guerrilla fighter rather than the politician and diplomat, though perhaps before they lost Ben she was living more aboveground. Certainly Leia's true talent is for war, albeit sometimes under diplomatic cover.

-I thought Han and Leia's exclusive use of "our son" to refer to Kylo Ren was clumsy on first watch (intended solely to allow for the reveal of "Ben"), but I'm coming around to it in memory. The subject obviously gives both of them total searing pain to think about (and Han and Leia, then as now, are not great at expressing their innermost feelings). It makes sense that the name would become an awkward taboo between them, even as they're agreeing that Han needs to risk death to bring the kid back.

-Han and Leia named their son after a man he barely knew and she never met, and yet I like it -- I mean, "Ben" is an obvious way to go from "Han," and they would never have met if it weren't for Kenobi. And it seems like a nice thing to do for Luke, if everyone figured Luke wouldn't have children (and I'm still holding out hope that he didn't).

- Star Wars' villains reflect their directors' dark sides: Darth Vader is an unsubtle but incredibly stylish tyrant, ultimately undone by his reliance on machinery, while Kylo Ren is overwhelmed by the anxiety of influence. And the chump parade of the prequels (Maul, Dooku, Grevious) is intriguing but, in essence, all flash.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:08 AM on December 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

I'm about 2 hours post-viewing and can't stop grinning. I'll have more thoughts, I'm sure, but for now I'm just super happy.

I feel like a lot of the major criticism is coming from people who give the original trilogy an awful lot of slack in comparison. Not a perfect movie, but no more flawed than Ep IV or V, IMHO. Definitely better than VI. The prequels don't even deserve to be a part of the same discussion.

Our long galactic nightmare is over!
posted by tocts at 10:15 AM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]

Oh, and I'm hoping for Leia/Rey mentoring too! They obviously had an immediate bond.

Actually, that's one of the things I loved about the film, that Han and Leia both warm up to Rey right away, both because they have natural reasons to like her and because they need to feel like parents again. I get the impression that their mutual bond with Rey is one of the reasons they could communicate even that well in the brief scenes they share.

I also love that in this movie, Leia finally gets a hug (two, even). I mean, I've never objected that much to Leia comforting Luke after the destruction of Alderaan; that's her nature, she's outward-looking and empathetic and has seen a lot of people die, but she's a human being too and I'm glad she got to share the burden of mourning with both Han and Rey.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:20 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

Shallow talent pool, was my impression. Not doing as well as they imply they are.

Young men are easily manipulated . . .
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:22 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

According to the book, when the TIE fighter got shot down, Poe came through just enough to slow the descent, so he landed it ok. His jacket was stuck in the webbing and that's why he left it behind.

As I recall it, in the movie Poe says he woke up at night and Finn and the ship were gone. So the jacket is kinda weird. But weirder is equipping a space fighter with emergency parachutes.
posted by pwnguin at 10:24 AM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh man. First Order as MRA / white supremacist stand-ins?

(Did we see any non-human First Order?)
posted by tocts at 10:25 AM on December 19, 2015

Shallow talent pool, was my impression.

They need to stop putting their best-and-brightest aboard their flagship doomsday devices.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 10:27 AM on December 19, 2015 [13 favorites]

Young men are easily manipulated . . .

Oh, boy, that too. And Snoke is a terrific manipulator, from what we see.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:31 AM on December 19, 2015

"Who you rushing, brah? Sigma Tau? That's cool. I'm goin First Order!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:32 AM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Oh man. First Order as MRA / white supremacist stand-ins?

They're Space Nazis folks, don't overthink it.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:38 AM on December 19, 2015 [18 favorites]

Han. As someone who also has another 30 years of life under my belt since I last saw him, this is the portrayal I am most impressed by. This is our old pirate, but the bluster and bravado of the young man we met in the Mos Eisley cantina is gone. He has regrets, but he also knows exactly who he is, what he is, what he can do, and he's comfortable with it and himself. I loved watching him get to know Rey (again?) and love her.

After sleeping on it, I felt like Han's fill-in arc was actually one of the weaker points for me. Don't get me wrong, I love Han to bits, but he had some character growth in the OT, and seeing him turn around and run away even after his son falls to the Dark Side seems like a regression to me. I could see him being out there secretly working for the Republic/Resistance, but just having him go back to smuggling make him a bit too much of a manchild for me. I understand why they chose it--they wanted to return all three characters to their canonical elements--but most people do grow up some between 30 and 60. Saying he didn't is disappointing. (And yes, same for Luke somewhat, but at least he was supposedly looking for the Jedi temple in Ireland. Also, becoming a hermit is apparently a Jedi tradition.)
posted by immlass at 10:40 AM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

I liked this article listicle, esp. the MORAL RELATIVISM graphic and the disdain for midichlorians.

I thought the movie very well made, good pacing, scoring, imagery, costuming. Definitely a throwback to Star Wars (sorry, can't use the new naming scheme) down to the dusty land speeder. There were a few surprises; didn't think that would happen to Han Solo, but I'd've enjoyed more creativity. Still, the whole package was deeply satisfying for a Star Wars fan.

The 1st battle scene really reminded me of the 1st battle scene in Firefly - scrappy rebels being caught by the imperial baddies. The Octo monsters reminded me of sand worms from Dune. Am I just being way too deja-vu-y? I liked it, but it was a little weird to be consistently reminded of previous Star Wars films and other unrelated franchises. Wouldn't have been surprised if somebody had commented Cunning hat or used a Vulcan salute.
posted by theora55 at 10:44 AM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't know. People backslide. People lose theirselves in their work. I can believe that losing Ben the way they did would drive Han to do both of those things. People who act like they don't care sometimes care the most, and Han was like that nearly from the beginning. Plus, I never thought the mantle of general would rest easily on Han's shoulders. He strikes me more like the guy who refuses to let them promote him above staff sergeant. I mean, what kind of general personally leads a high-risk assault on a shield generator?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:56 AM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Oh man. First Order as MRA / white supremacist stand-ins?

Of the seven actors credited as "First Order Officer" over at IMDB, two are women and at least one has mixed heritage (nigerian/norwegian). The only common pattern appears to be that they're all from England.
posted by effbot at 10:57 AM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I was going to see it tomorrow, but when I went to buy tickets on Friday they were playing it in so many theaters that I got them for that night, which was great because I was hearing so much good stuff and because I was increasingly starting to get wary about being spoiled by something big. There were members of one of those stormtrooper legions at the theater (501, Vader's Fist) plus a Vader, mugging and there to take photos with happy people waiting in the mercifully not too long line. There was also a guy who may have just been a visitor dressed as Han, plus one tiny Princess Leia with her family.

I suppose I'm a middling fan, loving the originals, reading the Timothy Zahn books, watching bits of Clone Wars, and remembering a few bits of the prequels wistfully as the only good things in them (the lightsaber duel with Maul and the weird crazy chemistry Qui-Gon had with Shmi, Padme's grit and great outfits, plus yay Ewan McGregor doing as much as he could with so little, and...that's about it). I definitely got goosebumps at the theme, and was pretty immersed in the whole experience, but no tears even at moments I loved, like Han and Leia hugging after however long it had been. On the other hand, while I definitely have nitpicks and there are plot holes that bug me a lot, for the most part I was completely immersed in what was happening as it happened and waited until later to think about the stuff that didn't work. And I want to go back and see it again really soon!
posted by PussKillian at 11:02 AM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I can believe that losing Ben the way they did would drive Han to do both of those things.

That's the problem with picking up the reins of a franchise people have been in love with for 30+ years: a lot of people have different ideas about the characters. My question isn't "can we see it?" so much as "what are they saying with this?" I really dislike the idea that none of these people have grown up much in 30 years, but are in fact stuck in the same old ruts they were in at 20-30. As a person who is also middle-aged and has some life experience under my belt, this is not what I wanted from or for the heroes of my youth. To borrow a concept from another film series Harrison Ford was in, where's the mileage?
posted by immlass at 11:05 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Oh, I also have a lot of Han and Leia feelings and I don't know if they make any sense. I think I'm having some of the feelings that I had after I watched Korra and realized that so many of the characters I loved from Airbender apparently grew up to be really terrible parents despite having learned so many important emotional lessons on their various journeys. Having their son turn murderer and Sith could definitely cause Leia and Han to fracture in some way (clearly still loving each other but with a lot of pain there too) but don't know how I feel about how long the two of them have been apart. Has it been as long as Luke's been missing...and how long is that? A decade, twenty years? Because if Leia and Han had ten years together and then he bailed, I am going to struggle with that, but if it's only been five years or so I can see it a little better in a weird way. And I can't see them completely severed, but maybe Han goes off on these trips while Leia is involved in important General business and it gives them some space to not have to sit with each other and think about their evil kid. I like Han back in the smuggling business but depending on how he wound up back in the life it does mean he's not grown at all. And I can't with that because despite all the charming rogue stuff in the original movies, he was always, in the end, a dependable guy.
posted by PussKillian at 11:16 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

We Need to Talk About Kylo
posted by Navelgazer at 11:37 AM on December 19, 2015 [61 favorites]

I may be the only one but I am okay with Rey being Luke's kid.
posted by bgal81 at 11:47 AM on December 19, 2015 [21 favorites]

> A thought, based on how deliberate the callbacks and retreads were: when Luke goes to find the last Jedi Master in the galaxy after his big fight in the snow, he finds the lightiest-of-light-side Yoda in the swamps of Dagobah, a planet shrouded by the dark side. When Rey goes to find the last Jedi Master in the galaxy after her big fight in the snow, she goes to a pristine, beautiful, isolated planet seemingly made for the light...so what kind of Jedi is she going to find there?

Where did you get that Dagobah was shrouded in the darkside? I always saw it as a place abundant in life - creepy life, but life. One assumes that as a Jedi wanting to hide from others, who are force sensitive, why not go to a place that is so teeming with life that it is impossible to detect a Force user there?

I'm also assuming that wherever Luke is, it is also teeming with Life, probably below the surface of the water.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:48 AM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

The cave Yoda lives near is awash in Dark Side and he uses it to mask his presence from the Emperor.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:59 AM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

I forgot about the cave, I always assumed it was the larger planet's general life force. Obviously I need to re-watch the series.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:07 PM on December 19, 2015

Now that I'm at a real keyboard, a personal story about spoilers:

I made it all the way into the theater knowing basically nothing about the movie. The only exposure I'd had (through quite a lot of careful work on my own part) was the first two trailers, and then of all things I knew C3P0's arm was red because I was doing some christmas shopping at Kohl's and there it was on an ornament in a bunch of ornaments I was looking at (my literal reaction: for christ's sake, I have to look out for spoilers in the housewares section of Kohls?!).

Point being, I was really happy to be in the theater knowing that I was going in basically cold. I didn't even know the names of any characters, or any speculation about their roles.

And then the last thing prior to the movie start was an ad by Google that contained a shot from the film of Finn wielding a lightsaber in a snowy forest.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME, GOOGLE?!

I got over it when the music started, but goddammit people, whose great idea was that?
posted by tocts at 12:22 PM on December 19, 2015 [21 favorites]

Did that ruin the movie for you?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:31 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Saw it super late last night and just caught up on this thread. I enjoyed it and laughed at the laugh lines and all but it was a real letdown to me that they really just built a bigger, badder Death Star and the rebels just blew it up again. I made a joke in some previous SW thread that next time they'll just have, like, 4 Death Stars and MAN the Empire should hire me because it would make so much more sense to have just a shitton of Death Stars than have one single point of failure for your ruling-the-galaxy strategy every single damn time! Isn't there anyone with any sense in the First Order saying, look, I love the idea of blowing up a planet just as much as any of you but this is a strategy that has fucked us over multiple times now and these Death Stars are expensive? Like, sheesh, if you want to blow up a bunch of planets I'm on board but if we've got to build a Death Star style doomsday device, let's just make extra Death Stars. There aren't that many rebels and they don't have that many ships and if we just had a big old swarm of Death Stars and just made sure we figured out a better way to protect that thermal exhaust port I think we'd be all set. They couldn't blow them ALL up and then at the end of the battle we wouldn't be back at square one.

Also I loved Rey but she is a bit of a Mary Sue, literally zero weaknesses in evidence in this film, and I think there's just no chance she's not a Skywalker. Force sensitivity is one thing, there are characters not in that family who have it, but both Anakin and Luke had that same annoying thing where they'd get behind the controls of a ship they'd never driven before and immediately just floor it and drive it like a badass. I think that ability to channel Force sensitivity into insane stunt flying is unique in their family. I'd like to believe they are faking me out and it'll turn out that was a red herring but I don't feel like SW typically works that way. I guess we'll see.

My single favorite moment was when Threepio popped up between Han and Leia and said, "It is I, C-3PO! You probably don't recognize me because my arm is red!" I don't know why that made me laugh so hard - it's just such droidy thinking, I guess? I also loved that they committed to the joke of BB-8 picking his way down the stairs. I was expecting him to get fed up and do an R2-esque hover-thing but they went for the full Simpsons rake gag with it. We've taken a stroller down a long flight of stairs using just the same technique and it is tedious.

I agree Rey/Kylo (Reylo!) and Poe/Finn (...Pinn? Foe?) are going to be the biggest ships and I love both ships, hooray. I mayyyy be already writing some R/K in my head. I loved that Kylo Ren just fucking destroyed rooms when he was upset. I feel like you hear a lot of rhetoric on the Dark Side about unleashing your anger and letting the hate flow through you but I don't always see their big dudes follow through on that.

Finally, I just have to say, I hated baby Anakin and had mixed feelings about teen Anakin, but a little something died in me watching a SW movie with no embodied Anakin Skywalker at all. I didn't realize the extent to which Star Wars is Darth Vader to me. I missed him a lot.
posted by town of cats at 12:34 PM on December 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

Did that ruin the movie for you?

No, but I do think it diminished it slightly. There were parts that I found myself second guessing the plot simply based on knowledge that an un-spoiled viewer wouldn't have, which is not ideal.
posted by tocts at 12:36 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Finished the book... Two quick observations: The book seems to heavily imply that Finn isn't Force sensitive. Apparently, whoever Rey is, the Snoke and Rey already know.
posted by drezdn at 12:39 PM on December 19, 2015

I was hoping for 0-0-0 rather than the Torture Chair, but hey, two more movies to go!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:46 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Wow, evil Threepio!
posted by Gnatcho at 12:50 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Like many here, I am an almost lifelong Star Wars fan, I was bouncing all week in anticipation and I felt like I was 14 years old all over again waiting to see Empire Strikes Back.

Thoughts in no particular order:
* The theme loses something without the 20th Century Fox flourish.
* There were a few too many callbacks. A little goes a loooooooooong way.
* The bar scene was too reminiscent of the Cantina.
* BB-8 was just the right blend of appealing to kids without being too annoying for adults.
* I was disappointed that Phasma didn't take off her helmet, but hopefully she'll doff it in the next one. I love love love Gwendoline Christie as Brienne, and here's to her having a larger part in the next two films.
* There were a number of lines from the trailers that were not in the movie, at least to my recollection. "Let it in," "Who are you?" as two off the top of my head.
* I think that somebody needs to make a dubbing of the scenes from "Inside Llewyn Davis" between Oscar Isaac and Adam Driver, much comic potential there.
* Speaking of whom, Adam Driver is a fantastic bad guy. He has so much presence and inner emotional life even with the mask on.
* There are going to be so many Reys at Halloween next year.
* Han was dead as soon as he stepped out from the shadows.
* The ending was great!

We were at a late-evening screening last night at the Lincoln Square theater on Broadway. I was just reading a friend's FB post that John Boyega had stopped by briefly prior to the movie he was attending at a theater downtown, and yeah I was kinda jealous. Guess who showed up at ours? Boyega said that it was "now our movie" and he hoped we all enjoyed it. People were already flipping out, and this was total icing on the cake!
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 12:51 PM on December 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

I might have missed it in the book, but did Snap and Nien Numb survive the attack on Starkiller base?
posted by drezdn at 12:54 PM on December 19, 2015

Here is John Boyega popping up all over NYC last night. As computech said, it was so awesome to see him, he was so pumped up.
posted by mlis at 12:59 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

Did that ruin the movie for you?

I came out of the movie wishing I hadn't watched the trailers, because there's a few places where the movie felt like it was going for an applause or gasp moment based on not knowing stuff I already knew. For example, I know Han and Chewie find their way aboard the Millennium Falcon, so I was always certain it would be them who tractored the ship in, whereas if I hadn't seen the trailers I don't think they would have occurred to me as likely candidates. I've seen Poe flying an X-Wing, so I know he didn't die on Jakku, which, yeah, not until you see the body etc., but there's something to the uncertainty vs. certainty of it. I know Han and Leia are going to be ok, because I've seen them hugging, where I might have been more invested in their reconciliation as a moment if I wasn't already sure it was coming. I don't think any of that ruined the movie for me per se, but they were "oh shit" moments I didn't have because of advance knowledge that I think I personally would have had without that knowledge, and in the end I didn't have too many of those. The movie doesn't owe me any of those, but it would have given me more than it did if I didn't already know what I did.
posted by Errant at 1:01 PM on December 19, 2015 [8 favorites]

It was bananas to see Boyega introduce the movie at Union Square. I think the audience was too in shock to freak out. If I had seen Luke introduce one of the original films??? Crazy.
posted by armacy at 1:03 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

I think it'd be kind of hackneyed for Ren to be Luke's daughter. I'm hoping she's someone one of the Kenobis.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:07 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Captain Phasma: "Welp, sure, I'm an intimidating warrior whose only lines indicate harsh penalties for failure and lack of loyalty, but there's an awkward kid shakily holding a handgun, an old man, and an injured old Wookie, so whatcanyoudo... sure, I'll betray the First Order and disarm the shields."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:09 PM on December 19, 2015 [21 favorites]

As of this morning, my guess on the Organa-Solo family is that they weren't bad parents, particularly. It's just that Ben/Kylo takes strongly after the Skywalker side -- turbulent, passionate, perpetually frustrated. And Han and Leia are people who didn't even say "I love you" until they thought one of them was about to die. They're passionate too, of course -- their relationship is built on arguing -- but they've got a lot of walls, a lot of defenses. Han has his blustery thing. Leia's always ready to move on to the next fight, to respond to injustice with action instead of emotion. I can actually see a certain kind of kid finding them pretty repressive parents, and searching for mentors who'd let him express what he feels is his real self. (Too, I imagine his family were afraid of him going Vader's way, and he picked up on that anxiety, which would make anyone a little nuts.)

I appreciated that Han and Leia's relationship didn't really survive losing the kid, the way sometimes marriages don't survive the deaths of children. If they'd made it through, I would've believed that too -- obviously their bond is profound; even in the film they're separated but still deeply in love, and they know it. But this was by far the best way to tell me the story, even though I also respect the fans who had more complicated feelings. Lord knows I'm usually a Complicated Feelings woman myself.
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:10 PM on December 19, 2015 [15 favorites]

At UA Court St. in Brooklyn there were so many trailers the crowd started angrily booing them.

I really wanted to boo the Gods of Egypt trailer both times I saw it, but didn't want to risk getting kicked out or something. Good lord everything about that just looks goddamn awful.
posted by kmz at 1:12 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

There were so many trailers, and the 3D looked so bad in all of them. Nobody booed but the natives were definitely restless.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:16 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Did anyone else stay for the credits? Judah Friedlander was in the bar scene.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:20 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

One cameo I spotted on my own (and verified in the credits): Billie Lourd (aka Chanel #3 from Scream Queens) is the comm tech with the resistance who asks Leia, "General, are you seeing this?"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:23 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Best part of having seen this is that I can go back onto the broader internet without feeling it inevitable that an errant tweet or stupid headline will spoil this thing for me.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:25 PM on December 19, 2015 [18 favorites]

I spotted her name in the credits on IMDB, but there wasn't a character name next to hers until this week. (She's also Carrie Fisher's daughter.)
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:27 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Best part of having seen this is that I can go back onto the broader internet without feeling it inevitable that an errant tweet or stupid headline will spoil this thing for me.

This is actually why I bought a last-minute ticket for Thursday night, and I'm very glad I did, because not 24 hours later assholes were posting comprehensive spoilers with screencaps of Han's death into unrelated public comment threads on Facebook.
posted by Errant at 1:30 PM on December 19, 2015

Regarding Rey being a Mary Sue:

I genuinely wish that everyone would delete the word "Mary Sue" from their vocabulary. In its original, fanfic usage, it described a character who was, yes, usually female, but whose greatest crime was not perfection: it was twisting the story. A Mary Sue in that sense literally walks into someone else's world and makes everything about her. Flash forward to the modern day and it's a rare female protagonist who doesn't get accused of being a Mary Sue, and hence worthless. Here's the thing: she can't distort the story if the story already belongs to her. The protagonist, regardless of gender, is awesome and interesting and has a milkshake that brings all the boys, girls, or genderfluid space pirates to the yard, because that's why they're the star of the story. So calling female protagonists "Mary Sue" is sexist, belittling, and reduces them in a way that is very rarely applied to their male counterparts—even when those male counterparts are just as guilty of being a little too perfect to be real. -- Seanan McGuire

posted by bettafish at 1:32 PM on December 19, 2015 [97 favorites]

One more thing. I was out buying snacks while my SO was on line. Walking back, I passed a dad and his 7-year-old son.

Dad: Ok, now you can't tell anybody about the ending. Ok?
Son: It was the best ending, the best!
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:36 PM on December 19, 2015 [19 favorites]

Ken Burns: The Galactic Civil War (Washington Post video, ~4m)
posted by Errant at 1:41 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Not even my easily-impressed six year-old thought the 3D was worthwhile. It wasn't bad or distracting, but it added not one iota to anything.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:41 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I saw the movie cold, as in not having read any of the news stories or watched any of the trailers. So I was genuinely surprised when Han Solo showed up when he did!

One aspect of Finn's characterization bothered me - it is my understanding that he broke away from the First Order after his first experience with death in battle, especially the death of another stormtrooper (the one whose blood marked Finn's helmet). But then just a short while later he is indiscriminately killing First Order stormtroopers and officers in his escape with Poe, and for the rest of the movie doesn't seem very bothered about all the killing he is doing.

Plasma just shutting down the shields also bothered me, too, as sitting at that console seemed a prime opportunity for her to alert the rest of First Order about the presence of intruders.

So there were a number of things that kept me from being completely drawn into the movie and enjoying the ride. I did love the scenes on Jakku showing the remnants of a great battle long ago against the stark desert landscape, such as an Imperial Star Destroyer partially buried in the sand. Shots such as those made me think there was a far better movie hiding in there somewhere.
posted by needled at 1:45 PM on December 19, 2015 [19 favorites]

I have a theory about the black X-Wing: It's Luke's.

He gave it to Ben Solo who, then being the sulky teenager who paints everything black, had it resprayed.

Also, has there been any mention upthread of the X-Wing pilot doll Rey has in her AT-AT? Surely that must be significant. Looks just like daddy?
posted by popcassady at 2:10 PM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Looks just like daddy?

Wedge?
posted by drezdn at 2:11 PM on December 19, 2015 [8 favorites]

Needled, that was an issue for me, too. You'd think Finn had some friends among the troopers or he might not have been affected so much (beyond the villagers) when his comrade died in his arms.
posted by Atreides at 2:14 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

The book did show some internal conflict on Finn's part about it.
posted by drezdn at 2:17 PM on December 19, 2015

Eh. I get what Seanan is saying, but Rey does exactly this twisting. She enters the narrative, becomes the spiritual, if not literal, daughter of both Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. I'd also disagree with this: "whose greatest crime was not perfection." In fandom, yes, perfection is a traditional trait of a Mary Sue. Hypercompetency. The new Starfleet ensign who is beautiful and great at everything she tries. I mean, the story that the term comes from features a character named Mary Sue who is exactly this. Rey flies the Millennium Falcon as well as Han Solo and wields a lightsaber as well as Luke. She's the kind of character that the term Mary Sue was coined for.

(So is James T Kirk in the new Star Trek movies. Totes Gary Stu.)

Rey is also likable, interesting, and cool. A character can be good and worthwhile and still have Sue traits.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:17 PM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

I thought the scene with Han and Kylo Ren on the bridge was fantastic. One of the best moments in any of the movies. But I didn't realize until afterward that I had a very different read on the scene than a lot of other people.

We previously saw Leia pleading with Han to bring their son home. Han didn't say anything in response, because he was skeptical: he didn't think that Kylo Ren could be saved. Han strongly thought that his son was lost forever, and that if it came down to a confrontation, Kylo Ren would have to be considered an enemy and he'd have to die.

When that confrontation came about, both Han and Kylo Ren were torn. Kylo Ren was torn between the Light and Dark sides of the Force, and Han was torn between seeing his son as redeemable and seeing him as irredeemable. Then Kylo Ren handed the lightsaber to Han. What was going on here? Other people I've spoken with thought that Ren was offering to surrender by giving over his weapon... but then his internal struggle broke, he gave in to the Dark Side, and he killed his dad. That's not how I read it. I read Kylo Ren as asking Han to kill him with the lightsaber and end his torment. And Han waffled. Should he believe in Leia's optimism, or should he give in to his own temptation to see his son as the progeny of Vader?

Han is the one who broke. He decided, in a flash, that he'd accede to his son's wishes and kill him. And Kylo Ren sensed that. That's why he thanked his father as he killed him. He felt his father give in to the Dark Side (in a mundane, non-Jedi sort of way), and it settled his convictions.

Han shot first.

And yes, I think this callback is intentional. Actually, I think it's intentionally ambiguous whether this interpretation is correct, so it's intentionally ambiguous whether Han shot first. Which is even better.
posted by painquale at 2:22 PM on December 19, 2015 [90 favorites]

How many times did Luke get saved by someone in a situation that would have resulted in serious violence or death in ANH? Sand people. Cantina brawl. Garbage masher. Trench run. ESB? Freezing on hoth. Danging from Cloud City. ROTJ? Palpatine.

How many times did Rey get saved by someone in a similar circumstance in TFA? Um...

(I still like her, don't get me wrong. I just hope she eventually faces some challenge and peril.)
posted by entropicamericana at 2:29 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

It's already been said, but one of the things I really appreciated is the light saber fights weren't the overchoreographed swooshy, swirly, "look how NICE I'm fighting" swing-at-the-other-guy's-saber borefests of the prequels. They were brutal affairs with actual emotional and dramatic stakes, and actually looked like the participants were trying to kill each other.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:30 PM on December 19, 2015 [21 favorites]

How many times did Rey get saved by someone in a similar circumstance in TFA?

In the Cantina, she gets saved by Chewie.
posted by drezdn at 2:39 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Mary Sue is a sexist term.

She's good at flying because she's a mechanical nerd for fun and to survive. She was "good" at using the lightsaber because Kylo had already been wounded by Chewie and Finn first by the time it was her turn to fight him. And lbr, she is most likely Han's niece and Luke's daughter which is why Han and Leia were happy to see her and why Max kept pushing her to take the lightsaber.

Rey was probably being trained in the Force with her older cousin when shit went down and she got mind-wiped and dumped on Jakku.
posted by bgal81 at 2:54 PM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

My objection to Han going back to smuggling isn't an objection to him being separated from Leia--it's an objection to the idea that his instinct on leaving is to go back to the selfish life he had before he involved himself with the Rebellion. As someone who's much closer to Han's present-day 60+ than his 30ish OT-era self, that seems like a real rollback in personality. Life wisdom is hard-won. I wish they'd let Han keep more of his.

And on the subject of Rey being a Mary Sue, so what? Luke is one too. And Batman. And Superman. But they get passes because they're dudes.
posted by immlass at 3:00 PM on December 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

Ugh, Max is Maz. Also Rey doesn't even win her big duel against her cousin as the planet starts breaking.

You could just as easily argue that the movie went out if its way to prevent her from being heroic.* Finn has more heroic monents.

* I think that argument is almost as silly as the Mary Sue one but it is possible to make it.
posted by bgal81 at 3:03 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

My sense of Han's TFA-era life smuggling is that he's been hauling gear, smuggling, and running errands for the Resistance, and occasionally making money and new enemies for himself along the way. I don't see Han flying the equivalent of a container ship for kicks.

And no, Luke is not a Marty Stu, I just illustrated how. Anakin got criticized for his Marty Stu traits, too.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:09 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Mary Sue is a sexist term.

It might be, but it's also a useful one when we're talking about building complex characters who struggle and overcome difficulties. Or as they say in Steven Universe: "How can a guy have no faults? To be human is to be flawed! A real hero must struggle!"

We watch Luke train and fail with his lightsaber and with various other force abilities. He's a pretty flat everyman otherwise, a classic wish-fulfillment character in that sense, but I wouldn't call him a Gary Stu. Batman is an insane ragebucket, so he's not a Gary Stu either, either in the hypercompetency sense or the self-insert sense. Superman, okay, maybe. And I really like Supe.

Like I said, I adore Rey! I think she'll inspire loads of girls! The more I reflect on it, though, the more I would have liked to see her bumble just a touch more, and maybe have a few more human flaws. And maaaybe having her inherit the Falcon was a little over the top? Some struggle would have made her triumph feel even more earned. But that's okay. She's still wicked cool.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:14 PM on December 19, 2015 [8 favorites]

(Did we see any non-human First Order?)

Well, there's their Supreme Leader, for one.
posted by Strange Interlude at 3:15 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

She was apparently dumped on a planet and has been living alone since she was a child, surviving by being a scavenger. I think she has struggled .
posted by bgal81 at 3:18 PM on December 19, 2015 [15 favorites]

I don't see Han flying the equivalent of a container ship for kicks.

I don't either, which is why I don't like the scenario they start him in where he's flying dangerous animals for crooks, swindling money out of the two groups he promised the monsters to at the same time. This is back where he was in the Mos Eisley cantina. A guy at 60 who has not matured from where he is at 30 emotionally. Which also doesn't jibe with him grabbing the Obi-Wan role and taking on mentoring Finn and Rey.

And people who say Luke isn't a Mary Sue are just wrong. He grows into his power but he is totally the child of destiny who is watched over (by Ben) and people love his sorry ass for no reason even when he's a whiny little jerk. And the Princess fancies him until there's retroactive plot that makes him her brother. That's pretty much a Mary Sue (get over having a problem with calling dudes Mary Sues--that's sexist too) by definition, even if he needs help before he comes into the fullness of his power. It's just that he's an OKAY kind of Mary Sue.
posted by immlass at 3:21 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I disagree with you, but okay.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:24 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also, this is why it doesn't work to disregard giant neon signs pointing to her being Luke's kid. All the Skywalkers are just a little different starting with Anakin "Virgin Birth" Skywalker.
posted by bgal81 at 3:24 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I am a cynical middle-aged lady who hates almost all movies and finds them annoying, and this made me tear up. Mostly for Rey, who is Real True Force Badass who is a Girl. My god, I would have given so much to have a heroine like that when I was 8 or 9. A girl has the Luke role. Holy shit. I just never thought I would get that; I had already assumed she would be the secondary character to Finn's new Jedi.

I don't like the idea that she's Luke's daughter for two reasons:

1. Leaving your kid to live a life of desperation in a hostile environment all on her own is the shittiest possible thing to do.
2. I don't want everything to be about the Skywalkers. There were lots of other Jedis before. I would like Rey to be from a totally unrelated line but still a Jedi. And that means there are others out there.
posted by emjaybee at 3:48 PM on December 19, 2015 [17 favorites]

Remember the trailer where Luke was talking about how all the people in his family are powerful with the force? The trailer pretty much says she's part of the family.

As to Rey being a kick ass pilot, mechanic and force user, so what? Besides, she's clearly been struggling on that planet, yet doing a good job of surviving as she waits for her family to return. She finally left to join a group of people who are fighting evil.

There are helluva lot worse characters/models for females.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:49 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

In genre fiction, every other protagonist is a wish fulfillment character. If you take the term "Mary Sue" outside of the confines of fanfiction tropes, all it means is "someone else's pet wish fulfillment character whom I don't like." Using it never leads to interesting discussion, just pointless nerdpicking, oneupmanship and defensiveness.

Even if the term was used with complete gender neutrality, I would still say it needs to be retired because it's an irritating, fighty and judgmental way of saying you think a character isn't well-rounded while putting a veneer of taxonomic authority on your subjective interpretation. Since the actual state of affairs is that female protagonists are immediately saddled with the term while people bend over backwards making excuses for male protagonists who are just as if not more id-baity, well.
posted by bettafish at 3:53 PM on December 19, 2015 [31 favorites]

I mean, she's totally 100% the type of wish fulfillment I would have wanted as a teenage girl. As an adult woman and a professional writer of genre fiction, I like my characters to be a little more nuanced and also to struggle a little more over the course of the narrative (tragic backstory is another matter completely and doesn't really play into what I'm getting at). I thought that Finn's triumphs felt more earned in light of the events of the movie. Rey's one moment of major weakness--passing out into Kylo Ren's arms--was also a little ?? for me because it didn't make sense in context, especially in the context of what came later, and mostly seemed to serve to move the plot forward.

But as I said on twitter right after I saw the movie, I don't really have any substantive complaints, and I can get behind a superpowered wish fulfillment girl jedi because the twelve year old girl in me has been waiting my whole life to see that. It's not the best writing. But it's fine for what it is, and perhaps completely justifiable given the climate of culture surrounding it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:04 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

Rey's one moment of major weakness--passing out into Kylo Ren's arms

Perhaps a reference to her grandmother's habit of dropping dead when she is a bit sad?
posted by biffa at 4:07 PM on December 19, 2015 [14 favorites]

She's lost the will to . . . stand upright.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:08 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

Rey's one moment of major weakness--passing out into Kylo Ren's arms--was also a little ?? for me because it didn't make sense in context, especially in the context of what came later, and mostly seemed to serve to move the plot forward.

Huh? He Force-whammied her. She hadn't yet figured out she could resist him, or draw on the Force herself. I didn't find that unbelievable. It also took her a few tries to manipulate the stormtrooper's mind, something she had figured out she could do because she'd just defeated Kylo Ren. But she still stumbled at it.

Her other moment of weakness was refusing the light sabre and running off into the forest. But just like Finn her attempts to escape her destiny keep failing.

Kylo Ren is still alive, she'll undoubtedly face him again. She'll have to face the Supreme Leader dude (my interpretation of his hologram is that he's actually tiny, but projecting huge, because I would find that hilarious). She has to do whatever passes for training with Luke. She has plenty of opportunities in the next two movies to fuck up.

Kylo, meanwhile, resembles nothing so much as a pretty, pouty Severus Snape, so I have a hard time taking him seriously. Speaking of whiny. He is the Most Punchable of the cast for sure.
posted by emjaybee at 4:17 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

I too kinda want Wizard of Oz reveal of a tiny Supreme Leader.
posted by nom de poop at 4:22 PM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Saw it in Thursday and had a bunch of sniffles during the film, Mainly from the pure fucking greatness of it, but especiay from Rey and how they used her, it nourished me and the whole film felt like a plaster for my SW-soul, an apology and a hug. It also allows me to release my pent up rage about the prequels, I can now just sorta disregard them; sure, they are vid EU content, but Machete just got put to bed, the SW viewing order is now just SW, ESB, Rotj and FA/7. There's a great feeling of relief with that.

I saw it in the big, traditional, premiere 2D screen in Dublin, where I saw ESB and RotJ (SW I saw from behind the couch). There was plenty of clapping and laughing during the show, it was fan audience, so I didn't notice the pauses for reaction that someone mentioned above, in fact it saved me missing what they were saying. When the blue text came up at the start and the scroll began there was a smattering of nervous giggle and squeeing. One of my absolute favorite moments of audience participation though was hearing specifically the women in the audience laugh with me at the moment where Rey is trying to get Finn to hand her the right tool. Lived experience, right there. I also loved how at the end, when they are at the Skelligs, the whole audience broke into a sea of murmeing and whispered chatting as everyone went "oh look, there we go, they look well don't they?" and so on :) was a bit gas to see Luke so local, and probably took away some of the pathos, but also made it a viewing experience different to others.

Where am I at? Oh god, when Kylo Ren pulled off the helmet and I though, but he's only a boy, and feared we were in for an Anakin retread, but no; he's perfect, horrible little emo git with his cosplay helmet and his tantrums, and yet beneath the superficial, fedora-dudebro whiney persona he's actually really fucking bad, and dangerous and you have to take him seriously no matter how ridiculous he is. He's basically a school shooter. Also, the lovechild of Severus Snape and Jon Snow.

My superpower is that I have full suspension of disbelief for almost all films, so even when in retrospect he was so wearing a red shirt, I was gobsmacked when Han was killed. Like, I couldn't close my mouth for like, a minute and a half. So you can imagine how my experience was.

Loved Kylo's jaggedy untuned saber, no control, no finesse. Loved the colours and the grit, the first moment or two felt so very right, I was sold. When the Starkiller exploded, it looked like there was an Ed fect added that made it look like the cinema screen rippled, which I loved!

Rey, baby, c'mere to me! I loved that Han loved her, and approved her, and unequivocally handed her the reigns, I love that I am hearing men here say they accept her, and I hope they do right by her. I can't even fathom what it would have been like to see this film as a kid. I have no comparison at all, I had to want to be Han, and luckily we were only two friends so I got to be as well. I can't get my head around what it would have been like to have someone like Rey, Linda Carters WW is probably the closest, and there's a bit of a gap between the two all the same.
I'm almost afraid of the next ones.
I want to round up every girl-child I know and bring them to this. How old would they have to be you think? I am thinking seven?
posted by Iteki at 4:25 PM on December 19, 2015 [20 favorites]

Kylo, meanwhile, resembles nothing so much as a pretty, pouty Severus Snape, so I have a hard time taking him seriously. Speaking of whiny. He is the Most Punchable of the cast for sure.

I'll just leave this here . . .
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:27 PM on December 19, 2015 [22 favorites]

He felt his father give in to the Dark Side (in a mundane, non-Jedi sort of way), and it settled his convictions.

How do you square this with Han's final act to be reaching out and caressing his son's face? I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I don't read it that way), it's an interesting interpretation and one I hadn't thought of before, so that's very cool. Do you think it's regret or love winning out or something else?

Myself, I read it as a more self-sacrificing act on Han's part. I feel like he kind of knows he's going to die here, but dying in the service of trying to reach his son is a sacrifice he's willing to make. In that sense, it is a decent full-circle on the brash rogue out to save only his own skin.

As for the Mary Sue stuff: I don't even agree that we don't see Rey struggle. Her not failing (yet) doesn't mean she didn't have to overcome something. I like the way that listicle linked above talks about it:

We love these stories because they are about people who find something within themselves that even they didn’t know was there. That discovery gives them the power to defeat the most overwhelming enemies and situations—and because it comes from inside, this power can never be taken away. We all need, in big ways and small, to believe that if we dig deep enough we can find the confidence, the abilities, the self-possession to defeat whatever dark powers life arrays against us. We root for the hero because we root for ourselves.

As I said earlier, I think we see Rey be afraid, be angry, refuse the call, struggle between wishing for the past and moving towards the future. Just because we don't see her fall down in a big way, well, that's what Act II is for, isn't it? None of the heroes really fail in the first Star Wars movie either. We love to talk about Han Solo's transformation from scoundrel to hero, but he never actually abandons anyone or commits to selfishness, does he? He talks a lot of shit and then invariably does the right thing anyway, and we all think it's a lovely redemptive arc. Which I agree that it is, I buy that he overcomes his selfish instincts, but we don't need to see him give in to those instincts to believe that he has them and transcends them. I mean, if you think about it, he gets a massive payday none of the other feckless pilots get because they're true believers, plus he gets a medal and a promotion to general for doing all the same stuff anyway. That's some good-ass swindling right there, talk about your mind tricks. Just because you always seem to win in the end doesn't mean it wasn't hard to win each time, and we're only a third of the way through her story at most, in a movie that ends the way a prologue ends, not a first chapter. I don't agree that she would be a better character if she stubbed her toe through most of the movie and then miraculously did something right in the end. When that happens in Star Wars, we call that person Jar Jar.

Unrelatedly, I just read someone else point out another callback / inversion: "This time, we have a stormtrooper dressing up as a rebel." That's awesome, I didn't even notice that.
posted by Errant at 4:39 PM on December 19, 2015 [27 favorites]

Kylo Ren cares deeply about Ethics in Gaming Journalism
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:41 PM on December 19, 2015 [38 favorites]

I don't like the idea that she's Luke's daughter for two reasons:

1. Leaving your kid to live a life of desperation in a hostile environment all on her own is the shittiest possible thing to do.

Paradoxically, that's one of the reasons I feel most sure she is Luke's daughter. I don't think anyone else in the franchise could authorize dumping her there, but Luke could say "the Force said I should" and the audience is basically obligated to accept it.
posted by gerryblog at 4:44 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I mean, she's totally 100% the type of wish fulfillment I would have wanted as a teenage girl. As an adult woman and a professional writer of genre fiction, I like my characters to be a little more nuanced and also to struggle a little more over the course of the narrative

No offense, but you're looking in the wrong place for that kind of character narrative if you're expecting it in Star Wars. Rey is just like Luke in that once she's recognized, she's clearly a golden child who can do amazing things, and the OT wasn't exactly subtle about it either. Rey does screw things up: she has trouble with the Falcon initially (though she's clearly a better mechanic than Han, who was always having problems with his ship), she accidentally sets the monsters free, she gets captured, she takes several tries to make the legendary mind trick work, and she's mostly hiding on Starkiller Base until the guys show up to rescue her. But mostly she does good stuff because that's the hero's job and SHE'S THE HERO. And a lot of people are really uncomfortable with that, including women. It is okay for women to be heroes and win and not have to struggle 150% more for it and I'm going to plant my feminist flag on that point.

The sexism isn't wanting a better arc for Rey; it's expecting TFA to give us a better arc for Rey than the original movie did for Luke.
posted by immlass at 4:51 PM on December 19, 2015 [59 favorites]

Guys, Rey is totally Luke's daughter. When she connects with the Force for the first time, the soundtrack plays Luke's leitmotif.
posted by KathrynT at 4:55 PM on December 19, 2015 [19 favorites]

I'm not uncomfortable with it because she's a woman and I'm a woman and I'm sexism internalized. I'm just a fandom-entrenched genre writer who is used to using the shorthand I used to use while writing Star Wars fanfic back when I learned how to write (in communities inhabited soley by other women, and I kind of dislike the policing of women's/girls' discourse in this way, frankly, even when it comes from people like Seanan McGuire) while talking about writing tropes. And yes, looking for super nuanced characters in Star Wars is probably misguided. Nitpickers gonna nitpick.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:58 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also, a thing I want to say about Kylo Ren as the Darth Vader analog: if we were having this discussion about Darth Vader after Ep IV, we'd all believe that Darth Vader literally killed Luke's father and was always evil, because that's what Obi-Wan says. Now we know Obi-Wan was flat-out lying, but we didn't then and had no reason to dispute it. All of that is to say, it's entirely possible that the real story on Kylo Ren is what Han and Leia say it is, that he was Luke's student and he destroyed the new Jedi Academy, but there's some precedent for not taking even explicit statements at face value.

We'd also be like, "That's how Vader goes down? His wingman crashes into him and he spins out? Some tough guy."

Guys, Rey is totally Luke's daughter. When she connects with the Force for the first time, the soundtrack plays Luke's leitmotif.

This is true, but it's arguable that that's the "Luke as hero" leitmotif and not the "Luke as Skywalker" leitmotif. In video games, everyone gets the same level-up music.
posted by Errant at 5:04 PM on December 19, 2015 [8 favorites]

So Ren's character wore the face mask and respirator to be more like Darth Vader?
And that's the only reason?
posted by angrycat at 5:04 PM on December 19, 2015

Pls correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first film in canon that explicitly talks about the light side of the Force? I thought before there was always The Force and the Dark Side.

The shot of the elderly scavenger was a nice touch. Rey doesn't want to end up like her, but doesn't see a way out. It was an explicit lamp shading of youth-obsessed Hollywood.

I think my favorite part was when Rey walks up to Leia, who knows, and she can't say anything, because how do you tell a general three times your age that her paramour, the father of her son, is dead by her own son's hand? So Leia hugs her first and teaches Rey, the hardened scavenger, how to grieve.
posted by infinitewindow at 5:15 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

He felt his father give in to the Dark Side (in a mundane, non-Jedi sort of way), and it settled his convictions.

Huh? I didn't get that at ALL. I also don't think that Han was giving Ren "Permission to kill him" or anything either, though - I saw it as Han simply misunderstanding what Ren meant when he said he was struggling with something. Han knew Ren was being pulled between he dark and light sides of the Force - but Han misunderstood which side Ren wanted to win, was what happened. Han thought Ren was trying to fight his way back OUT of the Dark Side. So the Dark Side winning out was a surprise to him.

And the touching Ren's face right before falling off the bridge? Maybe "I forgive you", maybe "I know the good is still in you and is just trapped," maybe just a gut-level "goodbye" to his son.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:21 PM on December 19, 2015 [18 favorites]

> And maaaybe having her inherit the Falcon was a little over the top? Some struggle would have made her triumph feel even more earned. But that's okay. She's still wicked cool.

The more I think about this, the more I feel they just cut the mastering the powers story arch that usually comes with the "you thought you were just an outcast in a normal world, but here is your ticket to the magic world where you fit in" story lines. It was instead interspersed throughout the movie instead of giving us a montage. I wouldn't br surprised if Rey's Force powers don't exactly wane, but are used more reservedly in the series as she grows to control them - she is extremely powerful, but also we had the adrenaline fueled use of it going on, not the cautious "be careful, it can also be corrupting."

The more I think about Kylo Ren the more I think his rage is his middling to OK level of force power, but his angst comes from not being the best (here he is, the lineage of the Skywalkers, etc), that frustration being the lever Snoke uses to turn into rage. I agree there are so many analogues to the anger / rage that comes as a response to the failures of privilege (see: gamergaters, MRAs, Trump). Snoke obviously wanted Rey brought to him so he could corrupt her, I'm assuming he saw her as another potential option in case Kylo didn't turn out.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:49 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

So Ren's character wore the face mask and respirator to be more like Darth Vader?
And that's the only reason?

Well, he liked the Big D's fashion sense.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:51 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

"Only a master of haute couture, Darth."
posted by Errant at 5:53 PM on December 19, 2015 [18 favorites]

On my interpretation, Han touched his son's face because he still loved him. As simple as that. That doesn't conflict with Han deciding to kill him. He was pulling the plug on his son because he felt like his son was too far gone. The decision to kill him was done from love, but combined with pessimism about the hope of his son being saved. It's the pragmatist pessimism of an adveturer-rogue that was set up through the whole movie as distinguishing Han from Leia.

I agree that there's a consistent reading where Han goes out onto the bridge entirely committed to bringing his son home, as Leia wanted. But this reading is consistent too. It's tantalizingly ambiguous in a way that's pretty novel for a Star Wars movie. What I like about the Han Shot First reading is that it makes Han's story in this movie a real tragedy. He could never have the optimism of Leia, even when he needed it most. Which explains why he went back to smuggling. This movie is a brief final attempt, after 30 years of having rejected the life of a hero, for Han to be swayed back to being a hero instead of a rogue who shoots first and asks questions later. But he could never be that kind of hero. And that disturbing lack of faith In his son killed him and lost his son to the Dark Side.
posted by painquale at 5:55 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Wait, you think Han was gonna KILL him?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:07 PM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

I think it's neat that people can tease out Shakespearean-level motivations for the Han/Ten scene and if that works for you, cool.

I think this being a popcorn movie made to sell merch to kids aged 8-80, it went: Han wants to save son from evil; son tricks him and kills him; Dad is sad, dies.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:08 PM on December 19, 2015 [14 favorites]

I really like the symmetry if Rey is a Kenobi. In the first trilogy, the wise old jedi Kenobi takes untrained desert kid Skywalker under his wing, molds the hero we need. Wouldn't it be cool if old, wizened Skywalker now did the same with a young, untrained desert kid who was a Kenobi?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:13 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Also... a note you won't hear anywhere else, from six year-old DOT, Jr: "Needs more Ewoks."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:15 PM on December 19, 2015 [16 favorites]

This hit all my happy buttons! I was 5, 8, and 11 when the first trilogy came out. The Star Wars universe was seared into my little-kid bones. I remember back then, you couldn't even re-watch the movies on home video (and we didn't have a vcr for many years), you had to wait for them to come back into the theater. I pored over all the photos in the big LP record versions of the soundtrack for hours and hours as I listened to them over and over again. I had the ROTJ trading cards.

Anyway, this movie was for me! And I am *so* happy I was adamant about remaining spoiler-free, it really made the thing a lot better.

I went with my 16-year-old daughter, to the Alamo Drafthouse. In the pre-show, they had all sorts of great cheesy Star Wars music videos made by various people throughout the decades (for example, various types of terribad-yet-awesome dancing C-3POs and Vaders), but the big thing that just hit me deep in my nostalgia bone was three Kenner action figure commercials. Wow, that brought back memories! The dialogue (and especially the delivery) of the kids in those commercials just resonated so deep in my brain.

We sat in the first row (only tickets I could get, I was late in ordering them), so everything was so big it was kind of hard to scan my eyeballs back and forth real quick, and I missed some detail in the really detail-heavy scenes (like the bar - the creatures I saw were great, but I look forward to a second viewing from a better vantage point to catch more details).

During various points, my daughter got very excited and pounded my arm and looked at me with such a look of sheer *GLEE* on her face like "MOM! OMG!", it was so great!

Anyway, I love this thread - I have favorited all sorts of things that I thought were interesting even if they disagree with other comments I have favorited.

Seeing it again tomorrow, taking the bf this time. :)

YAY!!!!
posted by megafauna at 6:22 PM on December 19, 2015 [13 favorites]

Wait, you think Han was gonna KILL him?

Yeah. Ren was asking Han to kill him. He mentioned something about ending his torment then held out the lightsaber. It was kind of a test, and Han wavered but then failed.
posted by painquale at 6:22 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

And was it just me or was Leia's face kind of... strange? Like... I suspected a lot of plastic surgery / botox or something? Just wasn't as animated as I expected, seemed... dampened in a way?

Maybe it's just me and I'm way off. Please don't hate me for mentioning this.
posted by megafauna at 6:28 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

It was like she'd aged decades since the last one.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:35 PM on December 19, 2015 [49 favorites]

I trust you mean well, but poor Carrie Fisher has taken enough shit already in this world. Let's just be happy to see her and talk more story nerdery.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:39 PM on December 19, 2015 [20 favorites]

I dunno, it just didn't look wrinkled *enough* to me. Wrinkled is fine and totally expected, I got no problem with that at all. I guess I expected wrinkled-and-moving-normally, is all.

I love Carrie Fisher, I just had this weird impression that Hollywood wouldn't let her look as wrinkled as she probably would normally be.

Anyway it was just my weird impression, I'll shut up about this now. Sorry if I annoyed anyone.
posted by megafauna at 6:40 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

I can believe that losing Ben the way they did would drive Han to do both of those things.

If you're a parent, the absolute worst thing that you can possibly imagine is that your child grows up to be a bad person or someone who does some horrible act. Having your kid end up as a Darth Vader wannabe would crush you as a parent. I'm not sure how you'd even go on.
posted by octothorpe at 6:42 PM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

When does the presale for Rogue One start? I'm ready.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:48 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Carrie Fisher is only 59, she's not 197.
posted by Coaticass at 6:49 PM on December 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

And was it just me or was Leia's face kind of... strange? Like... I suspected a lot of plastic surgery / botox or something? Just wasn't as animated as I expected, seemed... dampened in a way?

It did seem odd, especially when compared to her face in recent interviews. Fisher mentioned having to lose weight for the role, maybe she was simply heavier then? Which is fine, Fisher is great and Leia is a great character and I wouldn't have minded seeing more of her doing General things in the film. Maybe shoot some stormtroopers too.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:49 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'm thinking Rey being awesome and cosplay being ever more popular, Ace Bandage comes out of this a clear winner.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:56 PM on December 19, 2015 [14 favorites]

Another thing that bothers me about the "Rey is a Skywalker" thing is that the only reason we even know that the Force is strong in the Skywalker family is because Anakin breaks all the Jedi rules to have a family, and that that's what starts him down the path to the dark side. This is also why I don't necessarily buy "she's a Kenobi" or anything else. I can just about stretch to "Rey is Obi-Wan Kenobi's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate" level of relationship, but anything closer requires not only either Luke or Obi-Wan to make the same fatal mistake that Anakin made, but to make it off-screen. Obi-Wan definitely didn't, unless we want to throw out his whole prequel characterization (which some might prefer), and it really seems unlikely that Luke would. Return of the Jedi ends with him being more isolated and apart from his friends, on his own solitary path, not reconnected to the group. I know, I know, Mara Jade, blah blah, but Mara Jade only works (if it works, which is questionable) because you see their relationship begin and develop. She can't just show up after a screen wipe. I'll take "Rey is a Kenobi" over "Rey is a Skywalker", but they both seem pretty counter to the story as we know it. Spending three movies to say "here's what Anakin did and how it screwed everything up" can't be followed with Luke doing the same thing during intermission. Well, I guess it can, but that would be horrible.

Also... a note you won't hear anywhere else, from six year-old DOT, Jr: "Needs more Ewoks."

My personal hierarchy of the importance of Star Wars opinions ascends in inverse relation to age. It's way more important that a 6-year-old like this movie than that I like it. I've already been introduced to mythic storytelling and know my way around the genre. That I ultimately like it is a bonus, but I'm much more thrilled that so many people are reporting that their kids are coming out of the theater all fired up. I mean, I've cooled significantly on Ewoks now, but you better believe I wanted to be Wicket so bad when I was 6.
posted by Errant at 7:00 PM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]

1. Leaving your kid to live a life of desperation in a hostile environment all on her own is the shittiest possible thing to do.

What if he didn't.

The theory I've seen floating around is Rey is the daughter of Luke and related to Ben Kenobi. Related because in her flashblack/flashforward scene there is a voice screaming "Rey" that sounds like Alec Guinness. It's apparently Ewan McGregor. It's not unreasonable to think of a descendant of Obi-Wan and Luke and Anakin would be naturally gifted in the force.

Unlike Kylo who has a muggle dad and a muggle grandmother to contend with - he was weaker in the Force and maybe seeing his little cousin kick his ass was the final straw. He works with the Knights of Ren and they plan an attack on the padawan school that Luke has and - much like his grandfather - they kill the kids. But he's unable to kill Rey so he mindwipes her, does a shitty job because he's not that good at it, and he has her dumped in the middle of nowhere or gets someone else to do that. The hand that is holding Rey in her flashback as she is being dragged away is not human.

A lot of fans think Luke is standing by a grave in the final scene and think it's his wife's - but what if it's Rey's and she was presumed dead? Luke becomes a hermit, Han and Leia split up, and Kylo joins the Dark Side.
posted by bgal81 at 7:07 PM on December 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

Not gonna lie, if Abrams reintroduces Ewoks at some point purely to troll the crotchety dudebro fanbase, I am 180% in favor.

Just stick an Ewok in an X-Wing as a background character or something.
posted by bettafish at 7:10 PM on December 19, 2015 [72 favorites]

Okay I really need to know how many of you are favoriting that comment because you generically approve and how many are favoriting because EU reference.
posted by bettafish at 7:18 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Just stick an Ewok in an X-Wing as a background character or something.

So Warwick Davis (who played Wicket) is in the movie, most likely in Kanata's place judging from credits order. Are we sure there weren't any Ewoks there?

(otherwise I'm all for the "three ewoks in a trenchcoat" theory)
posted by effbot at 7:22 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Can we all agree that Ep VIII needs a Lando cameo?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:27 PM on December 19, 2015 [15 favorites]

I want Leia to liiiiiive.

"As for Leia, every morning for as long as she lived, Leia got up before dawn and watched the sun come up."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:42 PM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

If the Jedi hadn't been such tight-asses about allowing their members to have familial and romantic attachments, the struggle to keep those feelings a secret wouldn't have fueled Anakin's turn.

It's not really the secrecy that turns Anakin, but his fear of death and of losing the people he loves, which would not be alleviated by losing the secrecy. If the New Jedi Order does have a different view of things, and if that's what happened, it does not appear to have gone too well for them. It actually appears to have gone exactly as bad as it went the last time: temple in ruins, one old master surviving the carnage by going into hiding, a child hidden away on a remote planet who has to come back and redeem their dad's failures. If we're really going to play "That's So Skywalker", I guess that's what we're doing, but it doesn't make sense, and it would be incredibly frustrating for that whole hubristic tragedy to happen in flashback, never mind completely offstage.

One of the better things about the Clone Wars cartoon (which is still considered Prequel-era canon) was the ongoing plotline regarding the fall of Mandalore, in which it's basically said outright that Obi-Wan had a secret youthful dalliance with Duchess Satine of Mandalore (who looks just like Cate Blanchett!) and that they continue to carry a torch for each other years later.

Ok, well, I haven't seen the series so that's fair enough, but while the experience of watching it might be different, based on this description I'm not sure I'm going to think of it as "one of the better things". I just finished watching II and III, and movie-prequel Obi-Wan is pretty much the opposite of this. I mean, he threatens Anakin with expulsion from the Order because Anakin wants to stop chasing Dooku for five seconds and pick up Padme, and that's right at the beginning of the Clone Wars. It doesn't add up, but I can table this point until after I watch the series.
posted by Errant at 8:08 PM on December 19, 2015

I enjoyed it. I'm not a hardcore Star Wars fan so maybe some of the call-backs went over my head, and i have zero exposure to the previous EU or whatever. It felt to me like JJ "gets" Star Wars far more than he "got" Star Trek. I thought the new characters were well done and it seemed obvious to me that Rey was set up to be Luke's daughter. I mean, maybe they'll change it but in this movie they certainly telegraphed it in a number of ways. If you telegraph something and then go "aha we fooled you!", that's not clever film making, it's just shitty.

Things I didn't really understand: the map. So, Luke went missing but hid 90% of a map to his location in R2D2, but then programmed it to not reveal that map until some undefined point in the future? What triggered R2 waking up? Why did R2 only have 90% of the map? Where was the other 10% before the start of the movie and why did R2 not have it? This was a macguffin that didn't really make sense to me.

It also didn't make sense to me why Luke would just bail on the entire galaxy because his protege turned against him. But whatever, maybe that will be addressed in the next one.

Things I didn't like: the final battle sequence and the fact that some x-wings can take down a planet by shooting it in a particular spot. a) we've seen versions of this plot device too many times already b) why was Finn's info about this weakness correct, if he worked in sanitation? c) it didn't make any sense that Capt Phasma would turn off the shields in that situation.

Finally, re the Mary Sue debate... Metafilter: Using it never leads to interesting discussion, just pointless nerdpicking, oneupmanship and defensiveness.
posted by modernnomad at 8:09 PM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

First off, just to clarify a few things.

BB-8 is bouncing and rolling across rough sandy terrain and all sorts of hard, jagged surfaces, using his frickin' body, which has bright shiny glass insets and fragile pop-out drawers, as a bearing. All the cute buzzing, bleeping and noises in the world won't make that plausible.

The crosspieces on that light-sabre are much more likely to lop off bits of the wielder than his opponent. (That said, I liked the coarser buzz and lack of smoothness in Ren's weapon. Building your own light saber is one of the last steps in becoming a master Jedi (or presumably, Sith). His weapon drives home the message that Ren is powerful and precocious but semi-trained and unfinished.)

And yeah, really, stopping a blaster bolt in mid-air. Anticipation and detection using the Force are skills we know that Jedi learn early: telekinesis comes later, with training. Vader, at the peak of his powers, was seen to absorb blaster bolts with his hand. Sith can generate lightning, and Yoda was seen to be able to absorb and dampen that lightning. Light sabres deflect blaster bolts and presumably a skilled Jedi could do so by mind power. Stopping a bolt in mid-air and holding it there whle walking around talking and doing other things, is a magnitude of difficulty harder than any of this. We simply see no evidence elsewhere that Ren is that powerful or skilled. In fact we see considerable evidence otherwise. He lacks control and the one time he meets someone with any Force connection, she kicks his ass. It's there because Abrams thought it was a cool SFX - and yep, the audience went oooohh aaahh - but it was a dumb idea.

Rey is kick-ass. There is one bad moment when Ren stuns her and carries her aboard his ship, but the movie quickly subverts and inverts the captured princess meme by having her turn the tables on her captor.

Inversion is a key aspect of VII. Luke turns from the Dark Side by refusing to kill his father. Ren turns from the Light Side by killing his own father. However I suspect that Ren will find that it does not help him become the implacable evil that he apparently wishes to be, and that his struggle to suppress the light in him will continue to be a strong influence on events in VIII and IX.

As for her parents abandoning Rey (whoever they are - and her father was almost certainly Luke, and her mother is almost certainly dead, perhaps killed by Ren, which gives us a much greater motivation for Luke to go hermit than simple annoyance over having his little Jedi nursery wrecked), she almost certainly wasn't alone. The mysterious old man on Jakku (Lor San Tekka?) is likely to have been her secret childhood guardian, as Obi-wan was Luke's. How he got the map is that Luke simply gave it to him, to pass on the the Rebellion when the time was ripe.

Predictions for VIII: This one will be for Leia. Without Han and with her son more than ever lost to the Dark Side, she internalises her grief and becomes implacable, skirting the edge of the Dark Side herself in inflicting vengeance on those who have stolen what little joy she had left in life. Untrained, she could even take to using the Force. It could be her undoing. Luke and Rey will be mostly peripheral, exploring each other, training, bringing out the backstory, etc, except that Rey will likely head off half-cocked to help Leia and will fall into a trap designed to bring her to the Dark Side. Inverting Luke, she may even go over to the Dark at the end of the episode, maybe while saving Leia from the same fate, leaving us on a cliffhanger for two years. Ren in the meantime may come over to the light, or even if he doesn't, he will continue to be wracked by doubt.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 8:13 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

I keep thinking about the ultimate endgame for Kylo Ren. It can't be another deathbed conversion. Been there; done that. We could have "convert to the light, live with the guilt," which would be interesting, though awkward. We could have "turns totally dark until Luke/Leia/Rey have no choice but to kill him," which is something I would like to see explored. They got Anakin back, barely. What if Ben is just too far gone? They already lost Han in the attempt to redeem him. How many more do you risk? I'd love a Luke/Leia argument about this.

"He's too far gone, Leia. We have to accept that."
"You never gave up on our father!"
"That's how I know this is different. I can feel the dark side in him. There is no light left."

At some point "How much effort do we put into trying to keep errant Skywalkers on the light side?" needs to be a real question.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:30 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

All I can say is, the movie did a better job in reviving a long-dead franchise than Jurassic World, it even wasn't quite as annoying with its nostalgic callbacks (though it was still somewhat annoying).
posted by Apocryphon at 8:31 PM on December 19, 2015

Things I didn't really understand: the map. So, Luke went missing but hid 90% of a map to his location in R2D2, but then programmed it to not reveal that map until some undefined point in the future? What triggered R2 waking up? Why did R2 only have 90% of the map? Where was the other 10% before the start of the movie and why did R2 not have it? This was a macguffin that didn't really make sense to me.

The 10% of the map was held by the old guy on Jakku at the very beginning. My theory is that he was tasked with watching over Rey, as Kenobi watched over Luke in IV. He held the piece of the map and was instructed to use it to find Luke if the situation with Rey turned south, e.g. the force awakens within her and she turns to the dark side. If that were to happen, old dude calls Leia, they join their maps, and find Luke.

OK, so the Resistance isn't doing so hot, and Leia decides it's time to call Luke out of hiding anyway. She sends Poe to pick up the small map piece, and Poe gets it in the first scene.

Now why did R2 wake up? I'm guessing it's because he detected the presence of Rey while in low power mode. That, or Luke activated him remotely... somehow.

Splitting up the maps helped reduce the chance that someone could just stumble onto it and find Luke without one of the above conditions being met.
posted by whitecedar at 8:36 PM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Ok, well, I haven't seen the series so that's fair enough, but while the experience of watching it might be different, based on this description I'm not sure I'm going to think of it as "one of the better things". I just finished watching II and III, and movie-prequel Obi-Wan is pretty much the opposite of this.

Which is why I hate Episodes 1-3 Obi-Wan and love Clone Wars Obi-Wan -- the cartoon version is plausibly the same character, but executed so much better it's ridiculous. (The same is even more true for Clone Wars Anakin versus Hayden Christensen-Anakin) Even though the series is ostensibly based on the movies, somewhere in the middle of my catch-up watch of the series a few months ago, I realized that it was probably the ideal form of the storyline, and the prequel films should be understood as inferior live-action adaptations. It's the best argument (other than The Force Awakens) for putting Star Wars in the hands of fans, instead of chaining it to the vision of a single auteur.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:43 PM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Things I didn't really understand: the map.

My issue with BB8's part of the map was that it seemed to show a pretty good number of star systems, and yet they couldn't place it in the galaxy until they fit it into R2-D2's map. That would be like a map showing someone at the bright spot near the center of this image, but not being to figure out they were in Naples because you didn't have a map showing where this odd boot-shaped region fit in with the rest of the earth's surface.

The crosspieces on that light-sabre are much more likely to lop off bits of the wielder than his opponent.

To be fair, I had the same complaint about Darth Maul's double-bladed light saber in TPM.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:45 PM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

I just want to say two things about the piloting on display:

- I liked seeing the Falcon bumped around and still kicking. It showed that Rey didn't have it 100% perfect at first, when she first pilots it, and when they bash through trees and skid in the snow on the Starkiller planet thing (right next to the cliff!), and it's still it one piece and works, that was great.

- I saw some great maneuvering by Poe that I liked, especially when he was within that great cavern of the Starkiller-apparatus - he wheels around, hitting important-looking machinery part after part. Anyway, it looked like he was really deft.
posted by megafauna at 8:51 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Oh and how early on, the Falcon's lower gun gets stuck in the pointing-straight-down position, and Finn can't really aim it, then an enemy fighter ends up in the crosshairs when Rey does a maneuver, and they get to asplode it!
posted by megafauna at 8:56 PM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

Anyone else wish that instead of the desert planet being Jakku it was the Endor moon post Death Star 2 destruction? I always had a soft spot for that fan theory.
posted by m@f at 9:01 PM on December 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

The crosspieces on that light-sabre are much more likely to lop off bits of the wielder than his opponent.

Maybe not.
posted by snwod at 9:02 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

hey, what if Han comes back as a Force ghost, and even he's not sure how it happened, and he just spends his time being an obnoxious backseat Falcon driver and beating Chewie at space chess because what's Chewie gonna do, tear his arms out of their sockets?

File under: bad ideas that I just had to mention
posted by knuckle tattoos at 9:18 PM on December 19, 2015 [70 favorites]

Of the seven actors credited as "First Order Officer" over at IMDB, two are women and at least one has mixed heritage (nigerian/norwegian).

To be clear, I wasn't going quite so literal with the MRA / white supremacist analogy (though it may still be a stretch). I was thinking in terms of species as analogous to races. A thing not really really deeply introspected upon in the original trilogy is that in a galaxy full of untold species, the two sides end up being a multi-species force for good fighting a rebellion against a 100% Humans Only force for evil. Literally the only time the Empire deals with non-humans is hiring 3rd party contractors.

So to does it seem to be with The First Order. Maybe that's just because:

They're Space Nazis folks, don't overthink it.

But maybe there's something else going on there.

Also, regarding non-humans:

Well, there's their Supreme Leader, for one.

Are we really so sure? Could he just be a really badly damaged human? It's hard to say what his real scale is, his giant holo-projector could be totally for show or maybe not.

Speaking of the Supreme Leader, I have to say one of the few odd little bits of being pulled out of the movie for me was his lip movements. I hadn't followed that Andy Serkis was involved, but literally the moment I saw that lower lip motion I was like "wait, is that Andy Serkis doing motion capture?". Seems like a totally weird thing to pick up on, but there it is.
posted by tocts at 9:34 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Maybe not.

Not convinced. The guy looks very awkward and constrained by his need to avoid touching himself with the crossbars. It makes his moves predictable. A skilled opponent could use superior mobility and lower predictability to considerable advantage. Also, even in that link there is the telling admission: at 01:30 - the expert swordfighter, von Puch "barely nicked himself with one move".

I never did like the omission of any sort of guard on light sabres, to prevent the very issue of the blades sliding down and cutting off hands or fingers. Even the katana, the nearest approach I have seen, has some protection - the tsuba or guard - against that. I don't see the projecting metal crosspieces of Ren's weapon as a liability because we do see - in the fight at the cantina when someone comes at Finn with a sort of battleaxe-gun - that metal can be protected from light sabres, but I do see those mini-light sabre blades as a danger to the user.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 10:03 PM on December 19, 2015

Which is why I hate Episodes 1-3 Obi-Wan and love Clone Wars Obi-Wan -- the cartoon version is plausibly the same character, but executed so much better it's ridiculous.

Be that as it may, it is perhaps understandably frustrating to be presented with a later version of a character you already know which is radically different than what you've come to know and basically be told "actually, you don't know anything about this person, forget all that other stuff, it sucks anyway" when actually you like that stuff. I really hate the idea of the Jedi being this parroted ideal that no one really believes in and is so easily discarded any time someone gets a little horny, which is what this seems like to me. They're space monks. I like that they're space monks. I like Obi-Wan in the prequels, he is easily my favorite part of those movies and prequel Obi-Wan is one of my favorite characters in the whole series. Not in a "well, he's the relatively best thing of a bunch of crap" way, I legitimately like him and will rewatch the prequels for his scenes. It's cool if you don't like that version of him, I'm sure lots of people don't and I'm sure that point of view is much more representative of the fanbase at large, but this is one of the many reasons why a "Rey is a Skywalker or Kenobi" storyline will probably make lots of people very happy and will probably turn my affection for this movie to an equivalently fierce contempt. The story with Anakin is only interesting if it's unusual; if every protagonist Jedi is getting a bit on the side, why even bother with the hypocrisy of the Order?

But, again, I haven't watched them, so maybe it only sounds like something I'll hate, I'll actually think they're incredible. Anyway, I'm at a disadvantage in discussing them, so I'm going to stop now.
posted by Errant at 10:04 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

The crosspieces on that light-sabre are much more likely to lop off bits of the wielder than his opponent.

Of course they are. They're a terrible idea. Everybody said so when Ren's lightsaber first appeared in the trailer. It may look cool, but it's ridiculously impractical.

But now we know who Kylo Ren is: an angry man-boy who idolizes Darth Vader but can't even stop himself from hacking up a room whenever he gets mad. Of course his lightsaber is stupid. He wanted the most bad-ass lightsaber he could imagine, but he didn't stop to think about the practicalities of the design.

It won't surprise me if he duels Rey again in Episode VIII and loses a hand to his own crossguard.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:18 PM on December 19, 2015 [30 favorites]

Apropos of nothing before:
I liked that there was just one wipe cut

There were way more wipes than just one.

Also, for everyone thinking Finn has the Force (not me, he's Han Solo in that dept), I can't believe we're nearly 500 comments in and no one has posited a theory he's Mace Windu's nephew or something.

Chewie ruled this movie. Always like him, but truly one of my absolute favorites now. But is this the first time we've seen his fingers? Old EU had wookiees being good with gadgets because of their nimble fingers but those just looked like leather gloves.

Also, JJ Abrams said on Conan that he worked the phrase "Jub jub" in somewhere, did anyone catch where?
posted by dogwalker at 10:51 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

I think I'd be able to tolerate Hayden Christensen if it meant we got Force-ghost Anakin smacking the shit out of his idiot grandson. Kid, what part of your family history made him look like the one to emulate?

(I also enjoy imagining Kylo frustratedly searching the forests of Endor with a metal detector, looking for Grandpa's helmet. With a stormtrooper standing by like a caddy to hand him a new one every time he pitches a hissy fit and destroys the metal detector.)

Honestly, I really hope that neither Rey nor Finn are descendants of anyone we already know. And I'm 100% on board the 'Finn is Force sensitive' train-- he hit EVERYTHING he shot at. Also, I have high hopes for large-scale trooper rebellion in a future film-- here's hoping Finn gets to give them some sort of rallying speech.

God, I am so relieved this movie didn't suck.
posted by nonasuch at 11:12 PM on December 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

This movie wasn't perfect but damn does it make me angry about the prequels we could have gotten.
posted by dogwalker at 11:15 PM on December 19, 2015 [14 favorites]

The prequels are generally frustrating because they have good ideas and a good cast trapped by Lucas' crazy ego.
posted by bgal81 at 11:19 PM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]

And I'm 100% on board the 'Finn is Force sensitive' train-- he hit EVERYTHING he shot at.

Hmm, this alone suggests that he's a descendant of Padme and/or Leia.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:37 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Nah, only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise.
posted by biffa at 11:43 PM on December 19, 2015 [24 favorites]

This is back where he was in the Mos Eisley cantina. A guy at 60 who has not matured from where he is at 30 emotionally.

Do y'all think a highly unstable Dark Jedi / Sith Lord / Whatever had a normal childhood and a strong fatherly role model? Of course not. He came from a broken home.

It's not like the New Republic has a lot of money lying around, especially for anyone claiming to be the sole surviving princess of a now destroyed planet and her husband with multiple debt-related bounties on his head. And after seeing their investment into Ben at Jedi Finishing School not pay off, bootlegging might be the only thing Han has left. Sometimes age doesn't leave you wiser, just more bitter about your lot in life.
posted by pwnguin at 11:56 PM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

-Han and Leia named their son after a man he barely knew and she never met, and yet I like it -- I mean, "Ben" is an obvious way to go from "Han," and they would never have met if it weren't for Kenobi. And it seems like a nice thing to do for Luke, if everyone figured Luke wouldn't have children (and I'm still holding out hope that he didn't).

Actually, Luke naming his son that makes so much more sense I guess we have to consider some Ben is actually Luke's son theories.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:03 AM on December 20, 2015

The prequels are generally frustrating because they have good ideas and a good cast trapped by Lucas' crazy ego.

I just finished a machete order viewing prior to seeing TFA again on Monday, and I'm very surprised by how much of the prequels I like, or would like if it were accompanied by different lines and different staging. The scheme to take control of the Republic is actually pretty impressive in a pulpy way; I'm sure there's tons of plot holes if I sat and thought about it, but the idea of setting up the Jedi and Dooku to be the fall guys on both sides of a manufactured war is neat, as is using the pretext of that war to inure the Jedi against thinking too much about all the blasters at their backs. The arrogance of the Jedi, the frustration of feeling like you're being held back from your full potential, the promise of greater power, the deep friendship between Obi-Wan and Anakin undone by jealousy and paranoia, there's a lot there that could have been good. But then there's also General Grievous and Jar Jar and the actual romantic dialogue and all the other dialogue and weird gladiator battles and sociopath baby Boba Fett and the whole stupid idea of some prophecy and ugh. Like, Padme's line in III, "So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause" is actually a pretty good line, and Portman delivers it pretty well. But it's in a movie with "The Sith are evil!" "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" and other such garbage, so it just feels like more of the same hamfistedness. Anakin's rage and insecurity is too explosive, so it seems like he's constantly having a bipolar meltdown instead of slowly turning rotten. This is rank heresy, but especially in Ep III Hayden Christensen is very believable in places when he's allowed to sit with an idea for a few seconds, and he and Ewan McGregor have a really nice camaraderie in Act I, but then the script makes him do a whipsaw emotional 180 and say something utterly bizarre. "It is a great honor to be given a seat on the Council, I'm humbled and I'll make you all proud." "You're welcome to the seat, but you're not ready to be given the title of Master yet." "WHAT HOW DARE YOU I'M GOING TO MURDER ALL YOUR CHILDREN"
posted by Errant at 12:10 AM on December 20, 2015 [11 favorites]

Yeah. Ren was asking Han to kill him. He mentioned something about ending his torment then held out the lightsaber. It was kind of a test, and Han wavered but then failed

No. He said he was being torn apart, in pain, and wanted the strength to do something about it. And he asked his father to help him find the strength to do what he had to do. He then offered the lightsaber to Han, who attempted to take it. At that moment, the light of the sun faded out completely, signifying both the Starkiller was fully charged and that there was no more light in Kylo Ren. (His face was lit completely in red by that point.)

It wasn't a "please kill me", but more "here is my promise". Maybe he intended at first to surrender it to his father as a gesture of turning toward the light, but when the light LITERALLY goes out, it changed the dynamic. Then Han pulled on the saber, and Kylo Ren resisted, not letting go. And we know what happened next.

Not sure where you got the "kill me, daddy" from. Watch it again.
posted by grubi at 12:37 AM on December 20, 2015 [14 favorites]

Yeah, what grubi said. He said he was being torn apart by his struggle. Han thought "oh, his struggle is that he is trying to fight his way AWAY from the Dark Side," so when Ren held out the saber Han thought "he's trying to let go of it, I will help him give it up by taking it."

But what Ren meant was "my struggle is that I am trying to fight my way TO the Dark Side," and he was holding up the saber to kill Han but was hesitating because "this is my FATHER". And then he sucked it up and did it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:07 AM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

I disagree, I really think you're supposed to think that Kylo Ren wants Solo to kill him - to relieve him from all the pain and angst he's feeling from the light side of the Force. And then the light goes out and Ren loses the battle within and kills his father.
posted by crossoverman at 1:20 AM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I loved it.
Giant plot holes and all.

I just wanted to believe, and I did.
But, I also don't hate the prequels.
posted by Mezentian at 2:09 AM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I thought it was a solid modern actioner with some Star Wars touches.

I liked the main trio, I liked the reminders of the previous films. One of the most fun moments was when Rey accidentally unleashes the monsters Han is smuggling on the rival smuggler groups, and her wizardry with using the door to get Finn free. They worked really well together. I really liked how quickly Rey got good at doing Force stuff. I like the new setup with the First Order, it makes the new situation very open for adventure. I really enjoyed the lightsaber duel, and had been waiting for Rey to grab Anakin's/Luke's lightsaber with Force telekinesis from the moment it was in the box. I enjoyed how the Resistance is competent enough that, when they're faced with Finn, their first thought is "let's get all the useful military knowledge out of you, Mr. Defector." Rey is a solid "this person is the big damn hero" character and it's great that this can be a woman. I loved how the world looked like a continuation of the "lived-in" world from the original trilogy as opposed to the shiny-CGI world of the prequels; that was a huge weakness of the prequel trilogy. And they did a good job with keeping all the First Order stuff looking sort-of-Imperial.

My biggest pet peeve is that I'm sick of planet smashing superweapons. It was a thing in the original Star Wars that worked. I hated Abrams using one in his Star Trek reboot, and I hate him using it in his Star Wars movie by making a superweapon even bigger than the Death Star. Invent another SF threat, guys, seriously. Blowing up a planet makes your SF universe less interesting. Use a freaking MacGuffin, the Kaiburr crystal is still just sitting there in the old Lucas Star Wars lore waiting for somebody to use it.

Somehow, despite being solid in his lightsaber fights and killing Han Solo, I don't feel Kylo Ren is quite at the level a Star Wars villain needs to be. He still feels too much like a wannabe Vader, which of course is literally what he wants to be, and Snoke (bad name) is certainly not the Emperor. The First Order does have potential, though. I'm not sure what kind of read we're supposed to have on Poe; I don't quite feel him as a character. We're told too much about him and not shown anything other than what we were told (good pilot, devoted to the Resistance). Star Wars heroes need a drive other than "has Neutral Good written on his character sheet." I also didn't care for Jakku, I guess there are plenty of desert planets but this one just doesn't offer much.

I liked it; it's much better than the prequels and not as good as the original trilogy, but that's really the best one could hope for. It's a relief that Revenge of the Sith is no longer what Star Wars is going out on.
posted by graymouser at 3:21 AM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

I wonder... sure, the Starkiller base has genuine utility in blowing up the New Republic planets, but perhaps it was also a lure to bring Han Solo to Kylo Ren? Perhaps this is part of Snoke's training of Ren, getting him to kill his dad. Yes, it's a ridiculous long-shot of a plan, but hey, it's Star Wars, it's the Force, they have previous in terms of Palpatine's dad-killing plans.

Hence Snoke and Phasma not being particularly fussed about the base being blown up. What's the loss of a Starkiller (which apparently is easy enough for the remnants of an Imperial army to build in a couple of decades) against the gain of a dyed-in-the-wool Sith apprentice?

My other theory is that they didn't actually build the Starkiller, Snoke just helped them find or reactivate it.
posted by adrianhon at 3:54 AM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure what kind of read we're supposed to have on Poe; I don't quite feel him as a character. We're told too much about him and not shown anything other than what we were told (good pilot, devoted to the Resistance).

I never saw him as part of a "main trio" in this film, he's tiny on the poster (smaller scale than BB-8), and he's quite a bit older than the others, so my take was that he's there to get things going -- using an experienced actor to bring the leads to each other, and the action to the leads, and then he's "killed off" for most of the film as far the main plot is concerned. Doesn't mean they cannot expand the scope later in the trilogy, of course.
posted by effbot at 4:43 AM on December 20, 2015

using an experienced actor to bring the leads to each other, and the action to the leads

Ah, right: Star Wars Actor Reveals Which Character Was Supposed to Die in The Force Awakens: “He opens the whole movie!” said Abrams. “Sounds great!” thought Isaac. “And then,” Abrams went on. “He dies.” “Oh,” thought Isaac. “I’d done that before,” he told me later. “Set up the plot for the main guy and then die spectacularly.”

No wonder he looked so pleased with himself when he showed up later :)
posted by effbot at 4:52 AM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Not sure where you got the "kill me, daddy" from. Watch it again.

I'm sure I will, but I really don't think it'll decide the matter. When watching the first time, I was simultaneously aware of both interpretations and I was unsure whether Kylo Ren gave the lightsaber to Han as in order to surrender or to have Han kill him. I was waiting for someone to do something that would settle what Kylo Ren's intentions were. And nothing settled it. Watch it again with this other reading in mind! There are two viable readings here, which is really cool.
posted by painquale at 5:07 AM on December 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

No wonder he looked so pleased with himself when he showed up later :)

Man, he looks like he is pleased because the is Poe Fucking Dameron.
posted by Mezentian at 5:16 AM on December 20, 2015 [9 favorites]

I'm still digesting the film and all these comments, but I do want to mention something that struck me during the viewing. Maybe it's nothing.

At the end, Rey follows Chewie down the Falcon's gangplank. Chewie approaches Leia (and you can feel his shoulders sagging), but Leia walks right past him and engages Rey in a full embrace. But at this point in the film, Leia has not yet met Rey. Leia knows a young woman had been instrumental in getting BB-8 to her, and was being held by the First Order, but she ostensibly doesn't know anything else about Rey. So why such a warm welcome? It seems to me that Leia might know far more about Rey's background than we do at this point.

Maybe I'm just being overly formal in expecting a full shake-of-hands, how-do-you-do introduction between those two. But the sense I got from Leia was "Thank the light someone in my family came back."
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 5:31 AM on December 20, 2015 [17 favorites]

either that or JJ felt like a Rey/Leia hug would be less awkward than a Leia/Chewie hug. But I would have gone for the Leia/Chewie hug as a call back to V, when Solo is cryogenically frozen.
I would like that kind of call back. And all the dead Empire machinery everywhere? Loved that, because it made sense in the fall of the Empire it would be all 'and here's a random AT-AT that can be made into a cozy cave.'

The bar scene was well-acted and I don't know 'made' but for the fact that Skywalker's light saber is just hiding out in a box, but for me it was made worse because I was like 'and here we are with a reference to episode IV'

I'm crotchety and have no kids, but I would have enjoyed the Leia/Chewie hug as a more real in the moment call back rather than "OH YEAH A TRASH COMPACTOR." I mean it's like the whole reason that Finn is a sanitation guy is to set up that call back. I mean, aside from the fact that he never killed anybody before in Space Hitler's army, that sanitation stuff was a li'l weird.

I have resented Abrams in the past for the call-back stuff he seems so neat. I mean the second Star Trek movie was the most egregious example, but remember Cloverfield? That movie was like REMEMBER 9/11 OKAY HERE'S A GIANT MONSTER NOW LET'S THINK ABOUT 9/11 AGAIN'. When you compare Cloverfield to Spielberg's War of the Worlds (Spielberg's '9/11 movie,' )that's sort of what I'm talking about.

BUT I laughed at Chewie, I was like Rey you are the best, loved the women piloting the X-Wings, loved Finn, wasn't bothered about the implausibility of BB-8. I have a big soft spot for Adam Driver, and I loved him as Ben/Ren.

I'm just saying, if somebody slices open an animal and crawls inside to stay warm next film because of a few random plot things that seem to only be there for the sake of cutting an animal open to stay warm, I will be like fuck
posted by angrycat at 5:49 AM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

So Ren's character wore the face mask and respirator to be more like Darth Vader?
And that's the only reason?

There's none presented in the film that I can recall. He takes it off readily enough when Rey gives him shit for hiding behind a mask. And Han yells at him, "Take the mask off. You don't need it!"

Not sure where you got the "kill me, daddy" from. Watch it again.

I absolutely thought that Kylo was asking Han to kill him. I don't remember the dialog exactly but it was basically "I'm being torn apart ... but I don't have the strength to do what I know I have to do to end this pain. Will you help me?" to which Han says something like "Whatever you need," and Kylo holds out the lightsaber. I mean, being in pain and giving a loved one your weapon is a classic set up for the mercy kill trope.

I liked the fact that the moment was ambiguous, because at the same time I think he was also saying that he didn't have the strength to murder his own father, which Snoke seems to have been prepping him for (IIRC there was one scene between Snoke and General Hux where Snoke says something about Kylo Ren facing his father being a test none one has yet faced.)

Han seems slow on the uptake and/or hesitant. The handoff seemed excruciatingly slow to me; my read wasn't that Han didn't have time to take the lightsaber, but that he was frozen by his only two options; murder his own son or be murdered by him. Then the light goes out (a bit heavy handed, but as someone pointed out upthread, this is a space opera) and Kylo finds his nerve, and maybe a bit of anger that his father has let him down again, and kills him.
posted by usonian at 5:54 AM on December 20, 2015 [6 favorites]

Starkiller Base reminded me of a Poké Ball when it was first shown.
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:59 AM on December 20, 2015 [8 favorites]

he was frozen by his only two options;

He didn't freeze. He very plainly took hold of the lightsaber and tugged, expecting Kylo to let go of it. The look on Han's face was "Why won't you let go?" then "Oh. I see." At that moment, he realized his son was going to kill him.
posted by grubi at 6:01 AM on December 20, 2015 [10 favorites]

I'm very surprised by how much of the prequels I like, or would like if it were accompanied by different lines and different staging.

I watched all six in I-VI order last week and found much the same thing. I attribute this partly to having the commentary tracks on -- this gives you the dual benefits of (a) missing out on the leaden dialogue and (b) hearing Lucas and others explain what they were aiming for, which is often not precisely what the finished product achieves. At some point in the commentary for TPM, Lucas mentions that he was aspiring to the visual storytelling of silent films: watched as silent films, they are actually quite a bit better, I think.

Of course, even considered purely visually, you still get the occasional jarring moment such as Dooku confronting Obi-Wan and Anakin for the final time, which begins with an 83-year-old man leaping off a balcony and performing a mid-air somersault before landing.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:08 AM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Here we go: Red Letter Media Half in the Bag Episode 100: Star Wars: The Force Awakens... potentially offensive humour, obviously (but not up to the Plinkett standard)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:56 AM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

He didn't freeze. He very plainly took hold of the lightsaber and tugged, expecting Kylo to let go of it. The look on Han's face was "Why won't you let go?" then "Oh. I see." At that moment, he realized his son was going to kill him.

My impression was that he hesitated and then tugged, but even if there wasn't a hesitation, that's still consistent with the Han Shot First reading. Han tugs, Kylo Ren realizes, "Oh, I see what my father thinks I have become. Then that's what I'll be." So he lets the Dark Side take over and kills Han.
posted by painquale at 7:09 AM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

It's annoying that Leia "I killed Jabba" Organa was all "bring our son" and seemingly not a bit concerned that said son had killed a bunch of people. That whole "there's still some good in him" crap was ridiculously motherly.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:28 AM on December 20, 2015

I assumed "still some light in him" was just echoing what Luke said about Vader.
posted by emjaybee at 7:35 AM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

I saw this last night and thought it was great fun. Nothing much to add beyond what was above. I do think it's funny that Abrams or his cinematographer don't seem to really "get" the Star Wars universe visually (there's a surprising amount of shakycam, shakyCG(gross!), lighting that seems out of place, etc) which isn't a big deal really, but given the slavish devotion to the old films' story beats and the devotion to practical FX it is sort of weird. It still looks MILES better than the prequels, though!

What's slightly more depressing is that soft CG still looks utterly awful after decades of work. The two close-up CG characters (Grand Master Snoopy and Glasses Lady) were both just dire. Maybe they should stop trying to do that.

Anyway, I know I've given Abrams a lot of crap many many times (Into Darkness was brutally terrible) but this was great fun, had a great sense of humor, and a few moments of genuine cleverness. Too much cutesy parallel stuff but whatever. And the new cast is great!

Lastly, what the hell Max Von Sydow cameo? Is he going to show up next in Captain America: Civil War, wave to a confused Bucky then get hit by a bus? That seemed like really excessive casting.
posted by selfnoise at 7:36 AM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

I think it's gonna turn out that literally everyone had a cameo in the Star Wars movie (I'm second Stormtrooper from the left)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:37 AM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I was on one of the planets that got blown up!
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 7:54 AM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I was one of the planets that got blown up.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:55 AM on December 20, 2015 [8 favorites]

I was one of the snowflakes!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 AM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

I was like, didn't Max Von Sydow die twenty years ago?
posted by angrycat at 8:13 AM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

...a voice screaming "Rey" that sounds like Alec Guinness. It's apparently Ewan McGregor.

Apparently, it really is Alec Guinness - they clipped a recording of him saying "afraid" for the "rey" part. The rest of the line is Ewan McGregor, and Frank Oz voicing Yoda is in that sequence as well.

The movie is quite obsessive about fanservice and connecting with the past series, and it mostly works. There are comedic touches, often very corny, but mostly staying far away from JarJar levels. It also continues the tradition of introducing dozens and dozens of new sentient species, who apparently have only one or two surviving members and mostly congregate in bars as a support network.

There are also a lot of mysteries left to be explored, setting up the remaining films in the same way mentioning "Clone Wars" and Vader causing the death of Luke's father did in the original. Some questions got answered (Ren's parentage and motivation), and overall it seems to be a worthy continuation of the series.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:19 AM on December 20, 2015 [9 favorites]

dozens and dozens of new sentient species, who apparently have only one or two surviving members and mostly congregate in bars as a support network

This explains so much!
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:22 AM on December 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

I was like, didn't Max Von Sydow die twenty years ago?

Dick Smith aged him about 40 years in his big breakthrough role some 40 years ago, so his age is constant.

It also continues the tradition of introducing dozens and dozens of new sentient species, who apparently have only one or two surviving members and mostly congregate in bars as a support network.

Like in every good bar?
posted by effbot at 8:23 AM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm sorry, but there is no galaxy in which The Exorcist is Max Von Sydow's breakthrough role.
posted by graymouser at 8:28 AM on December 20, 2015 [15 favorites]

Rey is Palpatine's grandkid - Snoke/Plagueis planned for his student's betrayal and rescued/resurrected Palpatine's daughter.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:29 AM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

I wonder if part of the narrative reason that Rey progressed so quickly is that the main narrative arc has to do with primarily not the hero's journey but something having to do with children and their parents. Thus the movie sort of skips over the try/fail aspect of the hero's journey.
posted by angrycat at 8:37 AM on December 20, 2015

Red Letter Media reviews TFA.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:37 AM on December 20, 2015

Rey's an opportunistic scavenger. It's her superpower. Here are some parts, how can I put them together, let me grab the ones that look promising -- she's always looking around to see where she can scramble to next, what she can use. So when she sees Ren doing his thing (trying to get into her head) she's like wait, what's this, lemme try, ok great, what else can I do with this.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:41 AM on December 20, 2015 [35 favorites]

I read Han's final scene as, yes, Ben asking his father to kill him, but I definitely don't think Ben got angry and killed Han because he sensed that Han might actually do it. Quite the opposite: Han understood what Ben wanted and never in a million years would have done it, because he still loves his son. Ben saw this as weakness, as Han's failure, and it enraged him enough to stop wavering and kill his father.
posted by nonasuch at 9:07 AM on December 20, 2015 [32 favorites]

I was like, didn't Max Von Sydow die twenty years ago?

I think you're probably thinking of this guy, its an understandable mistake.
posted by biffa at 10:37 AM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I intend to go back and see this movie at least two to three more times, but after my first viewing, it was my understanding that Kylo/Ben was preparing to hand over his lightsaber in a gesture of "I'm done...here's my weapon, please help me and take me home." The problem arising that he changes his mind and refuses to hand it over, something Han realizes too late.
posted by Atreides at 10:59 AM on December 20, 2015 [16 favorites]

WOW. Fun fact: this weekend, The Force Awakens made more money worldwide than either Aladdin or Home Alone did in their entire runs. Really. It will probably pull ahead of the entire cumulative, worldwide gross for Empire Strikes Back by Monday or so.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:34 AM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

It will probably pull ahead of the entire cumulative, worldwide gross for Empire Strikes Back by Monday or so.

The second weekend drop off is going to be steep! Especially with Xmas getting in the way.
posted by crossoverman at 11:45 AM on December 20, 2015

Poe disappears for an hour or so and then reappears without comment in an X-wing.

The Force Awakens is a remake of A New Hope, except that in this version they didn’t leave Wedge on the cutting room floor.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:49 AM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

WOW. Fun fact: this weekend, The Force Awakens made more money worldwide than either Aladdin or Home Alone did in their entire runs. Really. It will probably pull ahead of the entire cumulative, worldwide gross for Empire Strikes Back by Monday or so.

I'm would not be surprised if it made three billion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:20 PM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

As much as I liked this movie I am keeping my fingers crossed for VIII, because all the things that are wrong with this movie are JJ Abrams things.

Being a virtual retelling of ANH? Compare Into Darkness with the first Star Trek. Nobody has grown or learned anything and it's basically the same story with a different kind of big bad.

JJ Abrams also doesn't have any sense of the scale of the Universe, and we get the same thing we had in Into Darkness of characters watching bare-eyed from the surface of one world the destruction of others in an entirely different star system. Say what you want about the Lucas SW flicks not being science documentaries, even the parsec howler in ANH wasn't this bad.

The purported tech of the Death Star Plus is also more Trek than Wars, sucking all the energy from the Sun sounds a lot like Generations and the world-destruction FX look more like the later Trek movies than like the super-Star-Wars blaster effect of the Death Stars.

My biggest worries are that VIII will either be yet another retelling of IV VII, or possibly a nearly exact retelling of ESB, rather than a new movie.

That said, if Lucas was great at world building but got lousy at making likeable characters, Abrams has the opposite problem and world-building howlers aside both the new and old characters are likeable, believable, and have interesting arcs.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:52 PM on December 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

As much as I loved VII, I'm so glad Abrams is handing the reins over to Rian Johnson!
posted by whitecedar at 1:05 PM on December 20, 2015 [10 favorites]

Saw it yesterday. Overall I liked it a lot. Some bulleted thoughts follow.

* BB-8 was just fine, but reducing Artoo to little more than a walk-on was egregious. I missed him the whole time.

* I managed to avoid spoilers and Han dying was a real gut-punch. I certainly didn't read the suggestion that he was supposed to mercy-kill Ben into the scene, it seemed like he was just surrendering his weapon as a symbolic act of renouncing his darkness, but it was a fake-out: despite obvious internal conflict, he knew from the start he had to kill his father. Driver as Ben/Ren was great though. Perfect casting.

* The final starfighter battle was dire. After the glorious chaos of RotJ's assault on the second Death Star, seeing a handful of X-wings and TIEs going at it was really underwhelming. And yeah, the Starkiller Base was dumb. Maybe not Suncrusher dumb (rot in purgatory, EU) but close. My impression during the movie was that it destroyed Coruscant, which is apparently not the case, but either way it was baffling that they could see the laser blasts from the cantina planet.

* Rey's quick self-instruction into intermediate Jedihood was kind of an eyebrow-raiser too, but I'm sure we'll see her deal with setbacks and limitations in the next episode so her apparent unqualified awesomeness didn't bother me much. I assume she's Luke's daughter or similarly related, and that's okay with me too. I thought the use of Luke was perfect, loved that he doesn't bother putting skin on his robot hand anymore.

* Finn was lots of fun but his character occasionally was written/played like a Star Wars fan who is aware of the fact that he's in a Star Wars movie, and the Abrams touch felt a bit heavy in those moments.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:19 PM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I think limiting R2 and Luke's participation was very smart. They still have some nostalgia arrows in their quiver for the next one.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:22 PM on December 20, 2015 [9 favorites]

Forgot one:

* I really dug Snoke being giant-sized, felt very unsettling in an Old Testament kinda way, if that makes any sense. Really hoping they don't pull an Oz-behind-the-curtain switcheroo, that's nothing new. The Plagueis theory would mean the hologram is 100% artifice and that Palpatine wasn't smart enough to ensure his master was really most sincerely dead, so I'm not rooting for that possibility.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:29 PM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Box Office Mojo shows Thu-Sat numbers putting film at over half a billion worldwide.
posted by grubi at 1:33 PM on December 20, 2015

Oh, I guess for folks who didn't read more about Snoke and wish him to be in a teapot, it appears he's 7 foot plus:

Andy Serkis, the master of CGI characters from Gollum to King Kong, plays the still-unseen Supreme Leader Snoke who has scenes with Kylo Ren. "All I can say is that I'm involved in it," he has said. But Neal Scanlan, chief of creature and droid effects, told PEOPLE, "This character is much better executed as a CGI character. That's just a practical reality when he's 7-foot-something tall; he's very, very thin."
posted by mrzarquon at 1:38 PM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

You know, I mostly enjoyed it. B+ if I'm being generous? Was entertained enough to see Episode VIII in the theater when it comes.

But, I have these criticisms. Don't read if you don't want criticism. I'd understand if you don't want criticism.
---------------------------------
BB-8 is the Muppet Baby of droids. BB-8 is the kid they introduce to family sitcoms after the initial kid actors grow up. BB-8 is Scrappy-Do.

If they knew the First Order had spies everywhere looking for BB-8, and they were ditching the Falcon to become more hidden, why do they go marching into a bar filled with unseemly types with the damn droid they are trying to keep under wraps. LOL WTF SOLO?

Big weapon gets fired up, destroys all the planets in The Republic in about 2 seconds, Resistance is sad for about as long but then they're all like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Said in Chandler Bing voice: Could Oscar Isaac's fighter pilot character BE any more one-dimensional?

What was Luke eating on that island all those years? Seabird eggs? MREs?

If the Empire was crushed, and The First Order is shadowy and up-and-coming, and The Republic is more or less in charge of the galaxy, why is it called "The Resistance"? Doesn't that make The First Order the resistance? They conveniently made the empire really not actually destroyed at all, post-Emperor...

Semi-tiresome re-spin of Episode IV/V/VI stuff:
Main sympathetic character stuck on desert planet barely getting by: check
Good guy resistance housed on bucolic forest planet: check
Destruction of planet(s) by bad guys: check
Sassy droids that emote: check
Watering hole with wild menagerie of weird creatures we see for 2 seconds each: check
Band of aliens playing some disco mix of clarinet/oboe/steel drum music: check
Vaguely ethnic alien speak: check
Millenium Falcon bucket of bolts humor: check
Droids getting thrown around willy nilly: check
Stuff attaching to outside window of Falcon: check
"Fantastic fighter pilots!": check
The Dark Side as clear analogy to Nazi Germany: triple check
Destruction of large spherical death machine as penultimate scene: check yeah

Also, Admiral Akbar hasn't aged a bit! What's your secret, fish-eyed flap-mouted alien dude? Do you work out?

There's probably a few more nits. It was a movie not without nits. For some stretches of it I was transported away from reality, which given the circumstances (I saw the movie solo as a break while spending several days with my father, who was just diagnosed with cancer) was an achievement and heartily appreciated. One thing I will definitely say that this was a far better effort than those sad Star Trek movies Abrams is associated with.
posted by mcstayinskool at 2:10 PM on December 20, 2015 [11 favorites]

Let's be honest here: the Republic/Resistance/First Order situation makes even less sense than the Trade Federation stuff in the prequels, and will require at least as much extratextual backfilling to make sense of.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:18 PM on December 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

I was disappointed that Phasma didn't take off her helmet, but hopefully she'll doff it in the next one. I love love love Gwendoline Christie as Brienne, and here's to her having a larger part in the next two films.

I just searched the page for Gwendoline Christie. Was going to say all of these things almost verbatim. Gwendoline Christie is the shit.
posted by mcstayinskool at 2:20 PM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Big weapon gets fired up, destroys all the planets in The Republic in about 2 seconds, Resistance is sad for about as long but then they're all like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was really confused by the extent of the destruction in the film. According to Wookiepedia, the weapon destroyed all the planets in a single system (Hosnian) including what was the current capital of the Republic. (But I'm not sure where they arrived at that) However, assuming that the Republic is at least a fraction of the size of the empire, it's composed of a multitude of systems. So presumably the Republic survived this in some fashion.

(did anyone else see Martha Jones appear for about 1 second before getting vaped along with the whole planet? Or maybe the doctor saved her. This movie had a lot of weird stunt casting)

That said, it's extremely unclear why the Republic is using a proxy force to fight the First Order. The movie didn't seem interesting in explaining it, which is fine, except that it's a detail that makes the plot more complicated. So why?
posted by selfnoise at 2:24 PM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

I think, for all of the ways that this movie does rehash plot beats from IV, that it's doing it very purposefully for reasons other than just giving people more of the originals. The little seeds of difference here -- Kylo Ren's immaturity, the mere fact of Finn being a storm trooper with doubts, and what seem to me to be very different initial emotional circumstances for Rey as compared to her analog Luke -- point to this episode being used to set up strong similarities with the originals that will put the upcoming differences into greater relief while still grounding them in the universe. Incidentally, that plays nicely into the theme of legacy that's all over this movie, and whether one takes theirs up or spurns it.

Really my only major critical point is that for all of the celebration of the original's aesthetic, it didn't quite nail the pulp-fantasy-in-space vibe of the originals as well as I hoped it would. It's hard to qualify how and why not in terms of actual technical details, but I felt that way nonetheless.
posted by invitapriore at 2:34 PM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I mean it's like the whole reason that Finn is a sanitation guy is to set up that call back. I mean, aside from the fact that he never killed anybody before in Space Hitler's army, that sanitation stuff was a li'l weird.

There is a theory going around that this is a callback to the Death Star conversation between Dante and Randall in Clerks: "You think the average stormtrooper knows how to install a toilet main?"
posted by Errant at 2:40 PM on December 20, 2015 [12 favorites]

Yeah, the scale of space thing, watching the destruction from Maz's, was definitely Star Trek reboot "red matter made a supernova that touched off a huge chain of supernovas because apparently all these stars are 50 miles apart" stuff, but it's also right in line with "let's just waltz on over to Bespin at sublight speeds", so...

I was struck when thinking about it afterwards how much more civilized Tatooine was than Jakku. If Rey wants some power converters she's gonna need to pry them out of a hulking Star Destroyer wreck, there's no getting your uncle's permission to take the car to Tosche Station.

Also, was it just me or was the hand that held flashback Rey the hand of the main trading post alien played by Simon Pegg?

Also also, I have to wonder if the emotional fallout and fracturing of the OT heroes' relationships has to do with how Leia and Han never got to see the redeemed Vader that Luke did. Ben showing dark side tendencies should freak Han and Leia out bad, their only point of reference is Vader at his worst, but Luke would say no, trust me, I can get through to him... and then he fails at being their last hope. That's a bad enough situation to split them all up.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:45 PM on December 20, 2015 [10 favorites]

selfnoise, you are apparently not the only person to see Freema Agyeman in that scene but she says it's not her.
posted by bettafish at 2:59 PM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

Also, was it just me or was the hand that held flashback Rey the hand of the main trading post alien played by Simon Pegg?

I just saw it for a second time and LOOKED to see who was with baby Rey--and it was DEFINITELY that guy.
posted by leesh at 3:08 PM on December 20, 2015 [6 favorites]

Wow, I was also sure it was Martha Jones (or her actress)!
posted by Iteki at 3:13 PM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

We really need a prequel that shows how Renlo betrayed Luke and killed all those Jedi.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:15 PM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I'm calling it Jakkuine.
posted by grubi at 3:16 PM on December 20, 2015

selfnoise, you are apparently not the only person to see Freema Agyeman in that scene but she says it's not her.

IMDB has her listed as well. I had actually assumed it was a similar looking actress until I saw it there. Misinformation everywhere!
posted by selfnoise at 3:19 PM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

"Star Wars Dude!"
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:34 PM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I saw "Star Wars" at a drive-in in the summer of...'77? I fell in love with Indiana Jones in a theater a few years later. The charming, resourceful, skilled son-of-a-bitch figure shaped my heart in some small way, and seeing Han and Leia all of these years later--seeing them after they had lost a child to the dark side, after they pursued the incompatible skills they were each best at, after, perhaps, she had grown tired of wild-goose goodbyes--I cried from my heart when he died. It felt like an adult nod to the price of a rogue soul, especially to those who love its bearer.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:58 PM on December 20, 2015 [25 favorites]

Ewan McGregor recorded a line, they repurposed a word from Alec Guinness and Frank Oz came in to do some Yoda work, too...
posted by crossoverman at 5:47 PM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Not that the obsession with US box office is that relevant in today's global movie market, but ...the film now holds the following domestic records:

Largest Thursday Previews: $57 million*
Largest Friday, Opening Day, Single Day: $120.5 million (estimated)
Domestic Opening Weekend: $238 million (estimate)
Highest Per Theater Average (Wide Opening): $57,571 (estimate)
Top Opening Weekend for PG-13 Rated Film: $238 million (estimate)
Top Holiday Opening Weekend**: $238 million (estimate)
Biggest Weekend Overall (Top 12 Gross): $294.5 million
Biggest December Weekend (Top 12 Gross): $294.5 million
December Single Day: $120.5 million (estimated)
Widest December Opening: 4,134 theaters
December Opening Weekend: $238 million (estimate)
Fastest to $100 Million: 1 Day
Domestic IMAX Opening Record: $30.1 million

(see link for previous record holders)

Also still highest rated Star Wars movie at Rotten Tomatoes :-)
posted by effbot at 6:28 PM on December 20, 2015

I'm replying to stuff wayyyyy up thread and days earlier.

Also he must have been a late life baby for Han and Lea. Maybe that's less of a thing in star wars?

As a 42 year old parent of a 4 year old, I'm feeling this just fine.

As someone who's not a mega fan or anything I enjoyed it because/despite of its corniness.

As a semi-mega-fan, the corniness is fine.

(also wild fan speculation on who/what Rey is: clone of Shmi)

NO. grumpycat.jpg

I loved the lightsaber fight at the end but I feel like Kylo Ren could have VERY easily disabled Finn with the Force

I got the distinct sense that Kylo was toying with Finn.

Any tradition of evil space wizards that are by definition hate-fueled rage-junkies ... my reaction was an immediate "why are we only encountering this behavior now in the fourthmovie in the series?"

Darth Vader force-choked a half dozen officers in Empire. The main theme of the dark side is rage induced outbursts.

I like Han back in the smuggling business but depending on how he wound up back in the life it does mean he's not grown at all.

I'm not sure how that means he hasn't grown. I see it as he is returning to the business he knows best. "Bury yourself in your work" as it were.

I have too many feels to say a lot more. Still absorbing and thinking about all of it.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:20 PM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I was supposed to see it next week when I went to see family after Christmas, but realized I was going to get spoiled if I did, and had already kinda been.

Anyway, immediate impression: I put it on par with Jedi. Flawed, but good.

With respect to Rey's lineage, in that sequence, I thought I saw Ren taking Rey's family away. But stuff was cut together really quickly, so I doubt it.

I was so amused that we're just running around a desert outpost and HEY THERE'S THE MILLENNIUM FALCON. The first flying sequence with it was so well done, it alone topped anything in the prequels.

Nthing the excellent acting in the scene where Ren tries to Force rape Rey.

Biggest flaw in the movie for me: Soooo, this Ren guy was supposedly strong enough to destroy all the New Jedi Luke was training, Luke couldn't stop him, but someone who's just realizing she's Force sensitive pretty much handles him easy peasy???

Also, I'm not sure I get why Star Wars movies have to have such familiar beats when the best movie of the franchise (by far) didn't follow the pattern. I feels like that should tell you something.

But on the plus side, watching Rey try to understand the Force harkened back so much to what Yoda tries to tell Luke during his training in Empire. She seems to intuitively understand what Yoda could never quite make Luke understand: you don't use the Force; you let the Force use you.

A very satisfactory experience overall.
posted by dry white toast at 7:40 PM on December 20, 2015 [8 favorites]

Just stick an Ewok in an X-Wing as a background character or something.

I would cry laughing if they put one Ewok flying an X-Wing made of logs in the background of one battle scene.
posted by neuromodulator at 7:45 PM on December 20, 2015 [18 favorites]

Just got back from my second viewing.

It was pretty clear to me that Kylo Ren did not destroy the Jedi Academy by himself. In the force flashback scene, we see Luke's robot hand on top of R2-D2 (presumably grieving for the death of his students), and then it shows Kylo Ren in the same darkened area. Behind Kylo are a bunch of hooded shadowy figures, which I interpreted as other members of the Knights of Ren.
posted by arcolz at 7:51 PM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

Biggest flaw in the movie for me: Soooo, this Ren guy was supposedly strong enough to destroy all the New Jedi Luke was training, Luke couldn't stop him, but someone who's just realizing she's Force sensitive pretty much handles him easy peasy???

He had just killed his father, and so was emotionally compromised (and he wasn't too sane to start with), also he had been shot in the side with a blaster (which usually kills an armoured storm trooper) and he was bleeding heavily. So he wasn't playing his A game. Plus, maybe he's just not that good. And Rey is clearly a prodigy.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:56 PM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter. I think she's Anakin's daughter. Not literally, more like a spiritual (ha) successor. She's a lot like Phantom Menace Anakin: Very independent, mechanical genius, great pilot, great innate force abilities, and mysterious origins (Anakin's origins more magically mysterious and hers are realistic in that she was left behind)

And this works story-wise as a rivalry between Rey and Kylo Ren. Who is literally descended from Jedi lineage AND royalty by birth, everything Rey is NOT. And it's gonna piss him off to find that this unknown is more like Anakin/Vader than he ever will be or can be.

This is just me spitballing an alternate theory and thinking about it like the Goku/Vegeta rivalry in DBZ. I don't know why I made the connection, but feel free to add or subtract from it.

And I liked the movie, but it seemed to pick up more once Han entered the story.
posted by FJT at 7:57 PM on December 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I got the distinct sense that Kylo was toying with Finn.

I have to admit that I find this interpretation very strange, considering that Kylo at this point is shaken, injured and conflicted. He simply doesn't have the presence of mind or the detachment necessary to engage in this sort of sociopathic play. In fact...

Biggest flaw in the movie for me: Soooo, this Ren guy was supposedly strong enough to destroy all the New Jedi Luke was training, Luke couldn't stop him, but someone who's just realizing she's Force sensitive pretty much handles him easy peasy???

...in fact, I think the same circumstances explain this, too. He's obviously an incredibly talented Force user, but we're told over and over that that talent does not extend to anything like control over his emotions. Darth Vader doesn't have outbursts, really, as far as I can tell -- he focuses his anger into calculated acts of malice and intimidation. Kylo, though, doesn't have it together enough not to falter in the face of physical and emotional setbacks, and so a Force noob and a Muggle both have a much better chance at prevailing against him than you'd expect given his on-paper abilities.

I guess I feel like the movie would have had to have done some truly insane and belief-beggaring nonsense to kill my sense of in-universe plausibility at any point, because we're talking about Star Wars. It's fucking ridiculous. Ships make sounds in space, they fly like they're on goddamn rails in the absence of atmosphere, physical obstacles still apparently matter in hyperspace but you can somehow do calculations to avoid them even though you'd have no way to actually detect their positions and trajectories remotely, oh and then there's the matter of, you know, THE FORCE. Nothing here was egregious by those standards.
posted by invitapriore at 8:01 PM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

I liked how in the final light saber battle Kylo was punching himself where he was wounded in the side. I like to think he was causing himself pain/anger in order to let the dark side of the force influence him. Maybe he was fighting the light side even during this scene. If that was the intention of the filmmakers it is more subtle than anything I remember in the other films.

A very enjoyable film despite the plot holes.
posted by Justin Case at 8:01 PM on December 20, 2015 [14 favorites]

More thoughts...

At first I was incredulous that Maz Kanata would just drop the shield because they have a blaster pointed at her. But on further reflection, she is so clearly middle management that I totally buy her being "yeah, whatever, I'm not really invested enough in the First Order."

Also Luke, Leia and Han all vanishing in their own ways felt right. As did Leia and Han still loving each other but finding it too painful to stay together after what happened with Kylo.

I dug Kylo struggling with being the call of the Light, rather than the Dark Side, as both Luke and Anakin did. It turned the franchise trope on its head nicely.
posted by dry white toast at 8:05 PM on December 20, 2015

Biggest flaw in the movie for me: Soooo, this Ren guy was supposedly strong enough to destroy all the New Jedi Luke was training, Luke couldn't stop him, but someone who's just realizing she's Force sensitive pretty much handles him easy peasy???

It was pretty clear to me that Kylo Ren did not destroy the Jedi Academy by himself.

This is kind of what I meant when I said I'm not completely inclined to take the "Kylo Ren betrayed Luke and destroyed the Academy" story at face value, just because some other people said or heavily implied after the fact that that's what happened. This may be the actual unvarnished truth, I'm not saying it definitely isn't, but we should be pretty used to a certain amount of misdirection and blatant falsehood in the first episode of a Star Wars trilogy by now.

Having said that, it seems to me that the person who wins a lightsaber/Force duel is usually the person who's the most in tune with whatever's going with the Force at that moment, and that "strength in the Force" is being attuned to the current state of it, not necessarily having the coolest tricks. No one ever talks about being medium in the Force or the 14th seed coefficient, unlikely to get past the Korriban quarterfinals and just happy to be in the tournament. This is one of the many reasons why the Force is such excellent plot armor.
posted by Errant at 8:06 PM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

And this works story-wise as a rivalry between Rey and Kylo Ren. Who is literally descended from Jedi lineage AND royalty by birth, everything Rey is NOT. And it's gonna piss him off to find that this unknown is more like Anakin/Vader than he ever will be or can be.

This is exactly how I read the struggle for Anakin's lightsaber (and why I'll be annoyed if it turns out she's just also Force royalty too). Kylo Ren believes that he is Anakin's true heir and feels entitled to it, beats the crap out of some jerk pretender because don't make me laugh, and then here comes this rando who pulls the sword out of the ~~stone~~ snow right under his nose and all of a sudden the Force is thrilling through her. I think it's a part of why he gets thrown way off balance, and why he starts trying to convince Rey to let him train her, because he needs to get a handle on what the hell just happened and how could it have happened when he's the chosen one, etc.

This is also how I read all his incredulous reactions to every mention of "some girl" who keeps thwarting all his plans. He's the new Dark Lord, he's bled and murdered for it, and what do you mean some random girl stopped you from doing my bidding? Did Palpatine ever have days like this?
posted by Errant at 8:18 PM on December 20, 2015 [16 favorites]

I like to think he was causing himself pain/anger in order to let the dark side of the force influence him.

Yes, yes. Like he's someone that has to manufacture it, because he's probably led a fairly good life as the child of the biggest heroes in the galaxy. Part of me thought he even wanted to get his hand cut off during the forest duel, because he could finally feel real pain and be more like his grandfather and uncle.
posted by FJT at 8:22 PM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Just saw it a second time today. I think Kylo Ren has a suspicion about who Rey is. Perhaps he and his nights were supposed to kill her years ago but she got away. Maybe he did know about her until after his rampage. Perhaps she got away because he hesitated in his commitment to the dark side. I could see him having lied to Snoke about it. Snoke will have figured it out, but they both keep playing the game. In any case, neither could be certain until now. That's why it is time for Kylo to finish his training.
posted by meinvt at 8:26 PM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Did Palpatine ever have days like this?

Oh man I love that you wrote this because it makes me think of Emperor Palpatine getting off his galactophone on a late night in the office after some bad news and taking the edge off with some strong drink, and I think that image clarifies for me what it was (outside of more ambience-related issues like lighting and camera movement) that made this movie feel like not quite the same series, which is that the characters here are much less simple embodiments of an archetype. I think I know why -- it worked in the first series for a lot of reasons, but you can't really convincingly explore the back stories and formative experiences of archetypes as if they were complex humans, which is maybe a part of why the prequels were so fucking stilted and boring. It seems like the opposite approach is being taken here, and in the balance that's probably a good and necessary thing, but it does subvert the attempts at matching the tonal feel of the originals.
posted by invitapriore at 8:36 PM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

Then again, it does have the positive side effect of relieving us from all of the awful dialog about the power of the dark side that plagued the originals to a much greater extent than I ever hear people talking about. On that note, I take the fact that I'm in here nitpicking about Star Wars even though I'd describe myself as just slightly on the positive side of neutral about the original trilogy as an indicator that there's something to this episode beyond just rehashing former glories.
posted by invitapriore at 8:41 PM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think Kylo Ren has a suspicion about who Rey is.

There is at least a couple of times talk of "a girl" and "the girl" has him suspicious - so I think he knows who she is. But maybe nobody else does? Maybe he took her from the Academy and left her on Jakku?
posted by crossoverman at 9:06 PM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Well there's always the chance of there being some kind of prophecy about a girl, that's giving Ren the jeebies.

When there are wars and sub-wars going on, a kid being deserted because their parents were kidnapped/slaughtered is not an unusual event, so you could have a completely mundane reason for Rey to be on Jakku; it doesn't have to be some 13th-level-Sith-chess thing.

But then, it might be.

I very, very much like the idea of Ren being really pissed that his awesome Skywalker blood is actually Not So Hot and some little punkass nobody from nowhere is more talented than he is. It would be a different direction for these movies to take from the Sacred Skywalker Lineage/Prophecy setup, but then again, that shit didn't turn out too well so maybe the Force is shrugging and going to go for a different approach.

God, it's fun to be in the first episode of an arc and just speculate all over the damn place. I don't care if I'm completely wrong, so long as whatever they do with the rest isn't boring and predictable.
posted by emjaybee at 9:14 PM on December 20, 2015 [9 favorites]

how does a bastard, orphan daughter of a whore and a corellian, dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot in the western rim, impoverished, in squalor...

you see it, right?
posted by casarkos at 9:19 PM on December 20, 2015 [33 favorites]

Then again, it does have the positive side effect of relieving us from all of the awful dialog about the power of the dark side that plagued the originals to a much greater extent than I ever hear people talking about.

To me, the biggest service TFA provides existing Star Wars fans isn't having Han, Chewie, and Leia doing their thing again; it's leaving all the stuff about the struggle between Dark and Light unsaid - trusting that the fans remember all that shit and don't need to be force fed. So when you see Rey try to process this new power, and Kylo look like a scared little punk, you know what's behind all of it.

Well, that and seeing the MF doing it's thing again. God that felt good!!
posted by dry white toast at 9:23 PM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

When Han says to Leia about going back to what he was good at I really wanted her to call him out on being kinda shit at it. Because he was scrambling when he agrees to ferry Ben and Luke and he's in hot water here too.
posted by phearlez at 10:12 PM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Just saw it. I enjoyed it, which is pretty amazing because I have a grudge against JJ Abrams after that Star Trek mess and enduring the prequels kicked almost all of the Star Wars fandom out of me. Abrams does a lot better with a franchise he doesn't hate, and he does a lot better with this franchise than Lucas did with the prequels.

(SPOILERS AHEAD!!)

I went into this really wanting to see the original cast and expecting to resent these kids hogging the spotlight, but I thought the new characters were OK. Fisher and Ford both seemed like they were kind of going through the motions, so the power of their scenes together mostly came from just seeing those two and remembering their chemistry and seeing how much older they were now. Adam Driver was pretty good, and the big hologram guy was scary. (Although if we meet him later and he's not a giant that will seem like a letdown.)

The death of Han Solo was spoiled for me by an idiot Yahoo headline writer. The headline was something like Fans react to major character death in Force Awakens. And I saw another headline about some gory Chewbacca scene that was cut, so I put those headlines together and figured Chewie was gonna die. I saw both headlines while I was very much trying to avoid spoilers, but I guess I should thank the author of the Chewbacca article because that threw me off enough that I didn't see Han's death coming right away. But the moment Han started down that bridge, there was zero suspense for me. And I wasn't very moved when he did die, which kind of surprised me. I mean, the death of Han Solo! 7-year-old me would have cried for weeks.

I'm a little annoyed with Harrison Ford, to be honest. His performance seemed pretty phoned-in and I'm assuming he only agreed to participate after he was promised he could finally kill off Han Solo. (And Han is very, VERY dead, with a lightsaber through his belly and falling down into the abyss on a planet that then explodes. You don't get much deader than that.) So, OK, Harrison, you never got the franchise and resented the fans, and now you've made sure the character is dead, dead, so dead. Now you can go back to... I don't know, playing presidents in movies that don't earn back their budgets? Have fun with that, dude.

When I think about it, this story is kind of the worst case scenario for events after Jedi. The Empire is NOT defeated after all. Han and Leia don't work out, and their kid becomes the new Darth Vader. Luke's Jedi camp ends in disaster and he goes into seclusion. Artoo is so heartbroken he goes into some sort of droid-coma, apparently for years. I don't even want to ask where Lando went! I'm sure nothing good happened to him either.

But all that being said, this is the first Star Wars movie since 1983 that felt anything like a Star Wars movie. I went in prepared to hate it, and I didn't. You've won this round, Abrams.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:16 PM on December 20, 2015 [13 favorites]

Anakin breaks all the Jedi rules to have a family

I have to wonder, since Force-sensitivity seems to be an inheritable trait, (obviously there is no in universe explanation for this, but pppfft, I don't see that addressing that would be interesting), if the restriction on love wasn't just for emotional reasons, but to stop an over-proliferation of Force-sensitives. It seems like they pop up a reasonable amount anyway, and just dealing with that is trouble enough.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:26 PM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Thinking about the movie some more, the final shot sums up a lot of what's leaving me cold about it, as my memories of the first act fade.

Batons are being passed in this movie. Eventually it's a literal baton—though, whoah!! it's not what you expect. See, it's going the other direction. Think about it. Similarly, in case it's too subtle that BB-8 is the new Artoo, because he's a cute little robot doing all the same shit, the movie will have BB-8 complete R2's job in way that is literally a missing piece of a puzzle and treasure map, at the same time. Did the map really mean anything, did it make sense at all? No, it's all a setup for R2 tapping out to BB-8. And hey, if you like Star Wars, you must like father-son talks on catwalks, but you'll never guess who's the Sith and who's the one trying to mend bridges THIS time.

It reminds me of how STID knew it had to have a "Khaaaaan", but thought just flipping around who screamed and who died would be some kind of cleverness. Instead, it just sells out the drama. The first half of the movie is better than I ever hoped a SW reboot could be, but the second half of the movie feels more and more like exactly what I feared from an Abrams SW movie.
posted by nom de poop at 10:33 PM on December 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

I'm a little annoyed with Harrison Ford, to be honest. His performance seemed pretty phoned-in and I'm assuming he only agreed to participate after he was promised he could finally kill off Han Solo. (And Han is very, VERY dead, with a lightsaber through his belly and falling down into the abyss on a planet that then explodes. You don't get much deader than that.) So, OK, Harrison, you never got the franchise and resented the fans, and now you've made sure the character is dead, dead, so dead. Now you can go back to... I don't know, playing presidents in movies that don't earn back their budgets? Have fun with that, dude.

This is exactly how I feel about it (and, I think, probably why you weren't moved by Han's death; it's certainly why I wasn't). I wouldn't have minded Han being center stage for so much of the film if he seemed more invested, or conversely I would have been fine with his aloofness as a background character like Leia, but for him to be front and center and clearly not give a shit, it's like having "Get a life!"-era Shatner headlining a new Star Trek while rolling his eyes at the camera every few minutes. We get it, you think we're all pretty stupid, so just fuck off then and let us have our fun.

I have to wonder, since Force-sensitivity seems to be an inheritable trait, (obviously there is no in universe explanation for this, but pppfft, I don't see that addressing that would be interesting), if the restriction on love wasn't just for emotional reasons, but to stop an over-proliferation of Force-sensitives. It seems like they pop up a reasonable amount anyway, and just dealing with that is trouble enough.

It seems like this would probably go in the other direction to me, like, we need to breed the Jedi Order into business. If the big worry for Jedi is getting to Force-sensitive kids while they're young, the easiest way to do that is to make them yourself. The worst thing about midichlorians for me is that it does imply that Force sensitivity is heritable, as opposed to the more mythic / mystic idea of Luke as karmic counterweight to his father. If Force sensitivity is heritable, then it's got to be an adaptive survival trait, right? So over tens of thousands of years of the Republic (not to mention however long it took to get to the Republic), there should be more Force sensitivity in the population, not less, the same way that on average we're taller than we were a few hundred years ago.
posted by Errant at 10:54 PM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

Just saw it. Aaaaaah fucking Star Wars you guys!!!!

Ugh with the plot rehash and I spent the evening watching the good bits of the prequels on YouTube - someone above mentioned and I agree the prequel story has good bones but failed on execution. But Ep VII made me appreciate that Lucas at least wrote a brand new story, with new conflicts not another (!) Death Star.

Dont get me wrong I'm still grinning like a fool.

And wow did Mark Hamill have that same old earnest longing in his face.

And the hair! Luke and Kylo Ren hair so wonderfully 70s and yet timeless at the same time.

They blew up Coruscant?!

I know JJ has no respect for cannon but do me a solid and give me Mara Jade I'll take even a cameo OH Please it's Christmas
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:55 PM on December 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Just saw it a second time today. I think Kylo Ren has a suspicion about who Rey is. Perhaps he and his nights were supposed to kill her years ago but she got away.

After my second viewing, i agree with the sentiment. Rey is definitely somebody. Kylo Ren first meets her in the forest and says something like, "So you're the girl I've heard so much about" when on screen he's only been told about her once. Also, Maz asks Han, "So who's the girl?" in a very pointed way and then Han gives a look before the scene cuts. Leia's reaction to first seeing her is also way too strong for her to just be some nobody.
posted by dogwalker at 10:56 PM on December 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

Also Finn is my favorite character by far, want them to explore more of his story.

No bacta tank for him?
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:57 PM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Ha ha, fuck Max Landis.
posted by Artw at 11:07 PM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

lso, Maz asks Han, "So who's the girl?" in a very pointed way and then Han gives a look before the scene cuts.

Oh that settles it, Rey is Han's out-of-wedlock daughter with Lysa Tully.
posted by nom de poop at 11:48 PM on December 20, 2015 [12 favorites]

Didn't expect to tear up multiple times. Good or bad, I don't know yet, but it certainly had a powerful effect on me.

Also, what lame-ass resistance goes on a bombing run with all X-wings and no Y-wings?
posted by charred husk at 11:56 PM on December 20, 2015 [12 favorites]

So I actually did a little fist-pump of glee when Han died, because they were telegraphing it hard but I really didn't believe that the series had it in itself to actually kill him. I knew a little about the draft plans to kill Han in RoTJ, and how that was scuttled, in part, to protect toy sales. He's too well established now for that to be much of a consideration, but I was still delighted that they actually went through with it.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:10 AM on December 21, 2015

Also, what lame-ass resistance goes on a bombing run with all X-wings and no Y-wings?

Yo punk ass Y-Wings didn't make it nowhere near that exhaust port on Death Star 1. Big Darth V blew the fuck out of those slow-ass shit boxes like 2 seconds into that trench.

X-WINGS 4 LYFE.

Don't even get me started on those POS targeting computers.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:12 AM on December 21, 2015 [18 favorites]

Why no B-Wings then?
posted by drezdn at 1:17 AM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

Of course there were no Y-Wings. They're hell of obsolete. The B-Wing was developed to replace the Y-Wings, which were Clone Wars era technology ffs.

I really wanted to see some B-Wings in action.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:17 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I remember some years ago, Lucas saying he wasn't going to do episodes 7-9 because he'd realized there was no story there. Everybody lived happily ever after, after ROTJ.

I enjoyed this movie while I was watching it, but in hindsight I find myself kind of wishing that these sequels weren't happening. Growing up you always wondered what happened to the characters after ROTJ, and here we got the answer and it's basically that everything was utterly miserable for everybody. As I said above, we find out the empire was not defeated, Han and Leia didn't last, et al. The space Nazis are still tromping around oppressing everybody and our heroes have grown old and estranged from each other. Artoo is literally paralyzed with grief, FFS.

If you're trying to start a whole new series of movies I guess it's almost inevitable that things went south after ROTJ. You need conflict for drama. But the original trilogy is some really classic Hollywood stuff, and that big joyous ending in ROTJ really tied things up. Of course the empire was defeated, Han and Leia were gonna settle down and Luke was going to begin a new life as a full Jedi, probably starting a Jedi academy or something. Orson Wells once said that a happy ending means you're ending the story before it's finished. In real life, everything falls apart. The Force Awakens shows us that ROTJ's ending was just one happy day that didn't really change much, and then things fell apart for those characters the same way they fall apart for us.

Normally I like my genre stuff a lot darker than other fans do (Buffy season six FTW!) but Star Wars is its own thing and I'm not sure I wanted to know that those characters have spent the last 30 years being about as miserable as I have. This movie proved that Lucas was wrong and there was a story after the original trilogy. But it's a story where my childhood heroes can only look back at their big Hollywood ending and sigh, thinking about how much they've lost.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:42 AM on December 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

I am well satisfied. I laughed, I was-all-like-holy-shit, I cried a bit, I was in suspense, I grinned a lot, I had the swelling heart-wobbles, I got a contact heroism-high, it had all the moving parts that make me happy.

Overfamiliar moving parts, overmuch, perhaps, but: I am well satisfied.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:55 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Star Wars is its own thing and I'm not sure I wanted to know that those characters have spent the last 30 years being about as miserable as I have.

You just put into words something that bugged me about the film I couldn't put into words.
Damn.
posted by Mezentian at 2:37 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

So, OK, Harrison, you never got the franchise and resented the fans, and now you've made sure the character is dead, dead, so dead. Now you can go back to... I don't know, playing presidents in movies that don't earn back their budgets? Have fun with that, dude.

Harrison Ford is 73. Maybe he just wants to retire? If they hadn't killed off Han this movie, they'd be facing the increasing possibility of having to patch in CGI Solo on the Episode VIII or IX scenes he didn't manage to complete before he died, died, so died. Or have Han Solo die off-screen between episodes. We can imagine how well that would go over. This was much better.

(Still annoyed that some internet rando spoiled it for me, but it was a great scene anyway.)
posted by rory at 3:11 AM on December 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

I enjoyed this movie while I was watching it, but in hindsight I find myself kind of wishing that these sequels weren't happening.

If only the prequels had been solid good Star Wars movies. They came so close in some respects, but in other respects so broken. (Although I suspect I'm the only one driven nuts by how the production team decided to use Obi-wan's desert hermit attire as their source material for how jedi would actually dress back in their golden age(?!) and now desert robes are official jedi uniform. At least Anakin styled it less tattooine once he was old enough.)

But the opportunity is lost. Maybe someday the prequels will be rebooted (I hate reboots, but I also hate how the prequels were botched. Such conflict within me... :) ) but either way they're never going to fix that desert-robes / swamp-rags screw-up :-/
posted by anonymisc at 3:17 AM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

I watched the movie 3 days after the mainstream opening, and didn't know he died in the movie until the moment I saw it.

I am floored that this wasn't spoiled for me. I am surprised this wasn't leaked long before the movie even screened (it might have been - I've been avoiding spoilers, but I was under the impression there were none until the first screenings). In a production of thousands of people, keeping that a secret successfully until opening night is amazing. I'm curious how they managed that. It seems like a lot of effort must have gone into that.
posted by anonymisc at 3:25 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

that big joyous ending in ROTJ really tied things up

You can almost hear the Yub Nub.

now desert robes are official jedi uniform

It seems especially wrong to see Luke wearing them on the Skelligs. He should be in a raincoat.
posted by rory at 3:29 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

I'm a little annoyed with Harrison Ford, to be honest. His performance seemed pretty phoned-in

I interpreted as the same difference we saw between brash energetic young obi-wan and calmer wiser classic obi-wan.
It's Han Solo, but his temper doesn't flare as much. He gets his kicks from subtler digs. He's seen it before, and enough times that someone-else's screw-up isn't his emergency any more. He might go above and beyond and give you some advice (and it'll probably be good advice) but it certainly ain't his job to follow up. Your problem if you weren't paying attention.

He looks like he doesn't give a shit because passion is for the young.
That's now Finn.
posted by anonymisc at 3:42 AM on December 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

Although I suspect I'm the only one driven nuts by how the production team decided to use Obi-wan's desert hermit attire as their source material for how jedi would actually dress back in their golden age

Oh no, you are not alone in this. I wrote about this back in the Phantom Menace thread, because yeah, guys, what are you doing with the production design? You really think Obi-Wan just spent the last 30 years hiding on Tatooine wearing literally a uniform of an outlawed and hunted down order?

Meanwhile: I have tickets to see this again today (hooray, time off to use up my vacation time before year's end). Super excited for round 2 :)

Oh, but also:

So Ren's character wore the face mask and respirator to be more like Darth Vader?

As far as we know, yes, and I kinda love that. Like, at first you're thinking "OK, maybe having another black-cloaked and black masked deep-voiced villain is a little much, JJ Abrams", but then you find out pretty early on that this is an intentional reference by the character themself. And then you start wondering about that mask, and noticing that it actually seems a little roughly made (the metal ridges have what seems like machining marks on them, compared to Vader's probably vacu-formed plastic), and ... wait, did Ren make this thing for himself down in the Starkiller's machine shop? Is he literally cosplaying this shit?

There's something pretty awesome about that as far as a character tic goes.
posted by tocts at 3:44 AM on December 21, 2015 [33 favorites]

Why were the First Order senior officers so young? I liked the effortless elder-statesman thing the classic Imperial officers had going. These younger officers had to work harder for the gravitas.
(I initially thought the First Order must be a young man's game after the losses the Empire suffered, but reading the timeline backstory summary, they've been locked in a cold war for decades. That's perfect breeding ground for old men clinging to power.)
posted by anonymisc at 3:54 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

It seems especially wrong to see Luke wearing them on the Skelligs. He should be in a raincoat.

Force raincoat, keeps all the drops from making physical contact. Luke's come a long way in his mastery of the force in thirty years. That or a spray on hydrophobic coating.
posted by biffa at 3:55 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Now you can go back to... I don't know, playing presidents in movies that don't earn back their budgets? Have fun with that, dude.

Has Ford played the president in anything other than Air Force One? That made $315m against an $85m budget.
posted by biffa at 3:58 AM on December 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

Probably saying some stuff that's already been said here, but i just finally saw this(yes, i know it's been out like two days, yes, that's a while for me considering the people i know who all somehow got tickets for thursday night).

- I turned to my friend immediately after the ending and said "That sequence in the woods had more character than anything in the prequels". He agreed. Seriously, if even just the darth maul fight had that kind of energy and just fucking feeling to it there would be something to defend about episode I.

- There's no stupid gigantic battle scenes with a bajillion distracting things! When there are shots that have a bunch of tie fighters/xwings in them they look the way they did in the OT. There aren't like, 1000 little blipblops going in ridiculous directions and shorting your brain out. It's all "these guys coming from this direction, those guys coming from the other direction. It looks like a dogfight, not like some final fantasy spirits within sort of "look at what we can do with CGI!" sort of thing that would be used to demo a graphics card at a trade show. Everything had a sense of scale, but no attempt to go "look there's like a BAJILLION OF THEM OMG EPIC".

- There was no stupid gag reel shit! The dumbest sight gag in the entire movie is BB-8 going down the stairs. George lucas added dumber gags than that to the remastered episode 4 just in mos eisley. I didn't even realize how relieved i was by this until i had already ridden home and put my PJs on. It really had to sink in.

- If i really had to pick out something that was stupid shit, it would be all the "HAHA LOOK IT'S THAT THING!" comic-book-guy-fodder. Seriously, the garbage can robot from ep4? I loved the subtle evolving equipment/industrial design/overall style stuff like the control room of the starkiller canon looking like some fancy upgraded version of the one from ep4 on the death star. It reminded me of how star trek smoothly shows the evolution of design with callbacks. I didn't like most of the background reused props as fanservice stuff. This probably wouldn't drag on somebody who hadn't seen the SHIT out of the previous movies, but it made me groan instead of going "hey it's that stuff i like!". You can tie things together without beating people over the head with it.

- The lightsaber fighting in this, even if you just take one scene out of context, is better than ANYTHING show in the prequels. Seriously. No stupid air-flippy stuff, no ridiculous wire fighting. It's deliberate. It shifts from calculated to angry without ever feeling like fucking dragonball Z or something. Rey's style is the absolute best of the OT lightsaber fighting with some flair. Kylo's is awesome in the raged out luke sort of way. The first strike finn makes impaling the stormtrooper is totally brutal without being silly. I was SO worried they were going to sparkle trek the hell out of this and they never went there.

If i had to pick a weakest part of this movie, it would be going for... the story of episode 4 again but With A Twist. George lucas already got away with doing a second death star despite the protests of other people involved in ep6. Why the fuck did they have to go there again in literally the next movie? Pick like any other plot device besides that. I started imagining this movie with it being slightly tweaked so that it's just a siege on a big first order base to recover some macguffin(like say BB-8, in addition to Rey being there) and... it doesn't fuck the movie up that much?

I liked this movie. I didn't just like it because it was better than the prequels, i thought the pacing and most of the notes it hit were spot on. But the parts where they're going HAHA LOOK LIKE THE OLD THING! like the cheesy redux of the death star trench run/porkins, blast The Thingy with the missiles(but it doesn't work! but then the hatches are open and it does!) complete with the fly through the inside of the thing scene from ep6.

The fresh parts of the movie, even with their callbacks, were refreshing. I think it comes on ridiculously fucking strong with the first act. Basically everything right up until we see the starkiller fire i could basically shut the hell up about.

I'd give this movie like, another 20 out of 100 on whatever i eventually decide to rate it in my mind if it hadn't gone there. The good going there was stuff like the reveal of the cruiser at the beginning aping the star destroyer in ep4. But they could have like... stopped after that and a couple others?

Hell, i would have smiled at a middle finger in one of the "AWW!" moments. Like R2D2 powers back on and his memory is erased like the end of wall-e... and it doesn't come back. But i'm a sadistic asshole.

Here's to hoping the next movie is just good and doesn't just try and do the ep5 thing again. Now that they've set it up and dumped a bunch of fanservice maybe they can just make good movies without that? If they do, this will feel like a much stronger movie in retrospect. And it's already, honestly, one of the best star-wars-themed-things to be made.
posted by emptythought at 4:18 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Seriously, the garbage can robot from ep4?

You best not be talking smack about Power Droid, friend.

Why the fuck did they have to go there again in literally the next movie?

I haven't read much of this thread, but the tech is out there (and, in universe, it's almost 70 odd years old).
People are gonna build a bigger bomb.
It almost makes more sense than not building a Death Star 3.
posted by Mezentian at 4:37 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

People are gonna build a bigger bomb.

See also: 1945-1989.

They should go full Cold War on this shit. Death Stars for everybody. Stockpiling Death Stars and testing them on asteroids. Mutually Assured Deathstars. A Doomsday Clock, set at one minute to A Long Time Ago. Death Star Winter. The Strategic Deathstar Initiative, popularly known as "Star Wars".
posted by rory at 4:49 AM on December 21, 2015 [42 favorites]

Rejected title: Star Wars VII: The Search For Luke
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:00 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Also it's not like the real world Nazis weren't totally into creating stupidly large and impractical superweapons and trying to go even bigger.
posted by arcolz at 5:18 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

On reflection I wonder if Kylo Ren destroying Luke's New Jedi Academy is one of those true from a certain points of view things? Couldn't the Knights Of Ren arise from Ben Solo convincing his classmates it's more fun to go play lightsabers than taking turns at giving Master Luke piggyback rides?
posted by comealongpole at 5:21 AM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

Rejected title: Star Wars VII: The Search For Luke

The Search for Skywalker, surely?

(Angry Star Trek Into Darkness John Harrison joke goes here.)
posted by Mezentian at 5:21 AM on December 21, 2015

I feel guilty for not liking the movie more.
posted by angrycat at 5:23 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think we all know what anger turns to, don't we angrycat?
posted by biffa at 5:30 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Ha ha, fuck Max Landis.

He's just going to be the Orgasm Sheriff for me from now on.
posted by kmz at 5:32 AM on December 21, 2015

I suspect the Resistance/Republic/First Order relationship will be fleshed out in the coming films and the New EU, but after some discussion, I think the way I am interpreting it at this point is thus: The Republic knows about the First Order, and they are aware that they are a growing threat, but given the current climate of demilitarization and decentralization there is no political or financial will for the Republic to directly oppose the First Order. The Resistance is an independent military organization like the Knights Templar or the Order of Malta - either explicitly permitted or implicitly tolerated by the Republic - that is using its relatively meager resources to take on the First Order guerrilla-style. It makes sense that Leia would be drawn to such an organization and they they would be glad to have her.

mrzarquon: "Oh, I guess for folks who didn't read more about Snoke"

I wish I hadn't read the rest of that comment, and I hope folks will resist posting spoilers for future films in this thread.

My daughter's OTP is still Chewie/R2D2.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:18 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

given the current climate of demilitarization and decentralization there is no political or financial will for the Republic to directly oppose the First Order.

Apparently Mon Mothma disbanded the rebel fleet in Aftermath? A decision that makes no sense.
posted by Mezentian at 6:24 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I feel guilty for not liking the movie more.

There, there. Here's a shiny copy of Fury Road, it'll cheer you right up.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

You best not be talking smack about Power Droid, friend.

GONK

Ok, I've slept on it and have more ruminations.

I think the big complaint we're going to hear repeated a lot is the copying of story beats from the OT. This was very much a torch-passing movie, and I think they chose a plot with familiar patterns so they could focus on the characters and not have to explain a lot about what they were doing. That's how I'm seeing it anyway.

I do agree, and hope that this movie was a dose of "Ok nerds, here's your fanservice, shut up" and the next episode will move forward in a new direction. I feel that they've set that up well:

Kylo Ren isn't just a copy of Vader, even though he's trying to be. He struggles with the call to the light. I love the notion that he's trying to do Sith cosplay. It feels like they're trying to do a better version of the Anakin fall to darkness.

Rey isn't the farmboy done good, she's a survivor, tough as nails, but with the ambition to become someone greater and take steps into a new world.

Finn is a former soldier seeking redemption, but also looking for hope and a home. Yet he has a sunny personality. He doesn't know quite who he is, but he's really excited to be here!

Poe is... well I agree with the comment from earlier: "What if Wedge had a personality?" I do love Poe's attitude vs Kylo. "Who talks first, do I talk first? I'm talking first."

I also noticed that Luke's Jedi robe was gray, not brown. I wonder if that means anything?
posted by Fleebnork at 6:33 AM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

Also, JJ Abrams said on Conan that he worked the phrase "Jub jub" in somewhere, did anyone catch where?

I think it might have been when someone – Han? – cursed someone else out. It’s tickling my memory banks but I can’t quite place it.

What's slightly more depressing is that soft CG still looks utterly awful after decades of work. The two close-up CG characters (Grand Master Snoopy and Glasses Lady) were both just dire.

I completely disagree about Maz Kanata (Glasses Lady). Great character design and very expressive, even in close up.
posted by schoolgirl report at 6:39 AM on December 21, 2015 [15 favorites]

This was very much a torch-passing movie, and I think they chose a plot with familiar patterns so they could focus on the characters and not have to explain a lot about what they were doing. That's how I'm seeing it anyway.

Looking on from the outside, i.e. I idn't really get into the movie, I think Star Wars isn't just a film, but a cultural experience. People go to experience certain feelings and/or share the feelings with others, knowing that even more people are experiencing the same thing at the same time. It's the Superbowl time experience for a segment of the population that often doesn't get to have these type of crowd experiences, so this is a big deal.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:44 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Oh that settles it, Rey is Han's out-of-wedlock daughter with Lysa Tully.

Hm. This would be both acceptable and sad (did Han not know/not try to find her when she was abandoned?)

Still hard to reconcile "they knew Rey existed" with "but were ok with leaving her as a tiny girl at the mercy of hostile assholes in a place she might easily have died." Even Luke had his aunt and uncle.

If they knew she existed but not where she was, ok. If they thought she had caretakers but those got killed and nobody knew, well, they weren't keeping good tabs on her, but maybe ok.

Han seems more like the type to just not reach out to a daughter (especially if he had a son and his daughter was from an affair). I could buy this.

It also gets us some non-Skywalker Force blood, so that's good. But also implies that maybe Han had a touch of it but didn't know it. Or was attracted to another woman who had it, which I guess implies he has a type.
posted by emjaybee at 6:44 AM on December 21, 2015

I'm kind of hoping Rey isn't related to any of the OT crew, but Leia gave her an awfully familiar hug.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:52 AM on December 21, 2015

Maybe Rey's parentage can be determined through midichlorian matching.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:07 AM on December 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

Jizz music was spot on.
posted by Artw at 7:13 AM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

The main thing that will bother me about Rey being a Skywalker is that Leia (especially) and Han didn't tell her. Leia's been through her own secret parent drama, so why would she perpetuate that secrecy in a new generation? It's a crappy thing to do do Rey.
posted by Mavri at 7:36 AM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

Awaken's jizz was one of the few let downs for me to be honest. I'd have preferred something more up tempo like Hope than what I remember as kinda reggae or dare I say it... smooth jazz / jizz
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:37 AM on December 21, 2015

Maybe Rey's parentage can be determined through midichlorian matching.

That's it, you're outta here buddy!

I think the music at Maz's was intended to reflect more the style of the Max Rebo Band, given that it's partially named after Jabba in the credits.

I also contend that Han and Leia simply don't know Rey's parentage or if they did, those scenes or that information was cut from the film. The latter makes some sense given the scenes we do see, but we won't know for a while.
posted by Atreides at 7:40 AM on December 21, 2015

Get a strong feeling that these films will be a prequel free zone.
posted by Artw at 7:42 AM on December 21, 2015

(I am probably the only person in the universe even vaguely whistful about that. Still, Rebels is humping the leg of Clind Wars pretty hard right now so I've got that for fanservice.)
posted by Artw at 7:44 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

I'm glad someone provided a credible explanation for Kylo thumping himself during the fight.

I really enjoyed that. I respect other people may not have, and I respect that there will be a difference in opinion. But I am happy I saw that in theaters. My romance comrade has been watching I-VI, so I've been exposed through osmosis. TFA is a nice palate cleanser compared to the prequels.
posted by LegallyBread at 7:47 AM on December 21, 2015

Get a strong feeling that these films will be a prequel free zone.

I think Disney wants to avoid anything to do with the Prequel Trilogy concerning its films. As you noted, Rebels is associating itself with the material set in the Prequel Trilogy timeline, but doing so with one of the few things people consider decent.
posted by Atreides at 7:48 AM on December 21, 2015

Still hard to reconcile "they knew Rey existed" with "but were ok with leaving her as a tiny girl at the mercy of hostile assholes in a place she might easily have died." Even Luke had his aunt and uncle.

Maybe Simon Pegg wasn't playing an alien, maybe he was playing a protector who was playing an alien in order to keep a regular eye on Rey? Keeping her hungry... for adventure!
posted by biffa at 7:52 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

It feels like they're trying to do a better version of the Anakin fall to darkness.

What's been going through my head since I saw it: If everything about Kylo had been transposed onto Anakin in the prequels, and you made Rey Luke's mother, the prequels would have been fucking fantastic. Watching Kylo was like watching the well-written, well-acted struggle with the Dark and the Light that the prequels utterly failed to deliver. All the more reason I feel like Disney's first move should have been to just overwrite the prequel trilogy.

The Force Awakens shows us that ROTJ's ending was just one happy day that didn't really change much, and then things fell apart for those characters the same way they fall apart for us.

I feel that frustration, but it also rang true for me in the context of the arc of the OT. At the end of Jedi, Luke does not have control of his power. He's arrogant and easily goaded into anger by the Emperor. Also, Luke's attachment to his friends is a genuine weakness for a Jedi facing the Dark Side. Fear of losing those he loved is exactly what Palpatine used to turn Anakin to the Dark Side.

All of which is to say that it makes sense to me that Han/Luke/Leia were shattered by Luke trying to mentor New Jedi when he did not have full mastery of the Force. You can make the case that Kylo's struggle echoes Luke's (just more on the Dark Side than the Light) more than Vader's.
posted by dry white toast at 8:09 AM on December 21, 2015 [10 favorites]

However, assuming that the Republic is at least a fraction of the size of the empire, it's composed of a multitude of systems. So presumably the Republic survived this in some fashion.

My take was that the new Republic was more of work in progress than an already successful galactic government. If you look at real life revolutions, toppling the old unpopular government is sometimes easier than creating a new functional one after a devastating civil war. So destroying all of the fledgling Republic's leaders during an already chaotic period of upheaval following the war might amount to starting over from scratch.

That said, it's extremely unclear why the Republic is using a proxy force to fight the First Order. The movie didn't seem interesting in explaining it, which is fine, except that it's a detail that makes the plot more complicated. So why?

The new film is pretty clearly structured to take everything that was good about the original trilogy and apply those concepts to new characters and plot. And the plucky but outnumbered freedom fighters facing off against a much more organized lawful evil bad guys was a big part of the original films. It's more satisfying to see Leia as the leader of the Resistance planning how to win the next battle against all odds than as the Queen of a big boring Republic trying to mop up the last remnants of the Empire.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:13 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

As you noted, Rebels is associating itself with the material set in the Prequel Trilogy timeline, but doing so with one of the few things people consider decent.

I have so, so much love for Clone Wars and have reluctantly begun to love Rebels just as much (particularly with the classic returning voice actors - Lando FOREVER!). I find it very telling that although my kid has grudgingly accepted that Captain Rex could not possibly still be alive during TFA, he continues to hold out hope that Ashoka will appear in the next installment (or maybe Rogue One).
posted by anastasiav at 8:13 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

There's really just no defensible explanation for the idea that Rey was left in that situation as an act of goodwill. To drop Luke into a family unit somewhere that was maybe not a palace but still stable food and lodging and something resembling parenting, fine. To drop a child into what is by all indications one step up from a refugee camp, a shipbreaker station? That's just plain abandonment, and not something you do to someone if you care if they live or die.

This movie managed to portray the SW universe as seriously bleak and awful. Which isn't so much a divergence from the prequels, but here it has the courtesy to feel awful. Anakin's situation, despite being the child of a slave, never manages to feel that dire. I honestly wondered if the movie was going to manage to distract me from it and am glad it did. But it certainly gave me a certain sense of "so what?" to the conflict between the First Order and the rebels. I'd like to give the filmmakers credit for making a movie showing that this doesn't really have dick to do with the plight of the seriously downtrodden but I think they're still just window dressing. They are just better at actually crafting a feel than Lucas was.

If you look at real life revolutions, toppling the old unpopular government is sometimes easier than creating a new functional one after a devastating civil war.

🎵Winning was easy, governing is harder.🎵

I didn't have a problem with the idea that it was still a mess after the Empire was crippled. I understand why some find that to be a serious bummer but it was okay by me. If anything the major failure here is that the result wasn't a hundred little fiefdoms running around with the Empire's sizable resources.
posted by phearlez at 8:18 AM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

Kylo Ren isn't just a copy of Vader, even though he's trying to be. He struggles with the call to the light. I love the notion that he's trying to do Sith cosplay. It feels like they're trying to do a better version of the Anakin fall to darkness.

I really hope that the plan is to kind of reverse Vader's arc. Vader starts out as a pure villain but eventually gets humanized to the point that he betrays the dark side to save his son, and finally you get to see him take off the mask and say that they were right about him still being good deep down inside. With Kylo Ren I don't think redemption would work as well because it's not as much of a surprise. It would be much more interesting if his arc ends up more like Palpatine's, where he starts off as a relatively normal human and is warped into an unrecognizable monster by the dark side. They already kind of had the same choice of either family or the dark side and he did not make the same choice as Vader. His tantrums are played for laughs in this film but I think making him into a crazy loose cannon would be an interesting juxtaposition to Vader's calm and composed personality.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:35 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Incidentally, in other small town Force Awaken News, Charlottesville, Virginia, was until recently a one movie theater town courtesy of Regal Cinemas. Regal had shuttered at least one if not two theaters it had purchased in town and opened up a massive eighteen screen/quasi-Imax theater at the Stonefield shopping development.

Then a new competitor opened up, Violet Crown Theater, a smaller operation, one of only a handful of theaters in the company. Fewer screens and much fewer seats, but with more luxurious seating, dining and drinking options, and the ability to reserve specific seats.

Somehow, still not quite yet to be easily accepted, once Violet Crown requested and was allowed to carry The Force Awakens (non-exclusively), someone at Regal made the decision that their massive theater in town would not. A number of people are lamblasting Regal's Charlottesville facebook page, especially for using Star Wars related ads on their page - and also thanking them for pointing them to Violet Crown.
posted by Atreides at 8:39 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Do we have any info as to when the massacre of the new trainee Jedi happened? Was it Kylo Ren or could it be another Ren? Older brother etc?

Does Ren struggle with lack of control due to a paucity of training from a proper Jedi? I.e. did he lose the plot early in the training process, or did he only do that as an adult? Basically is he Vader (albeit more powerful) without the full training that Anakin got from Obi-Wan?
posted by biffa at 8:43 AM on December 21, 2015

I find it very telling that although my kid has grudgingly accepted that Captain Rex could not possibly still be alive during TFA,

Have you told them the theory that Rex might be in ROTJ?
posted by drezdn at 8:44 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Somehow, still not quite yet to be easily accepted, once Violet Crown requested and was allowed to carry The Force Awakens (non-exclusively), someone at Regal made the decision that their massive theater in town would not.A number of people are lamblasting Regal's Charlottesville facebook page, especially for using Star Wars related ads on their page - and also thanking them for pointing them to Violet Crown

What the heck? I used to live in Cville. This is so weird.

Is Violet Crown the one next to the ice rink downtown? Did the other one up 29 North close?

Anyway, sounds like a clusterfuck.

Our local theater up here basically turned itself into a Star Wars Machine last weekend. When I went the parking lot was almost totally full but when I walked in the lobby was empty since all the humans had been funneled to their seats already. Impressive!
posted by selfnoise at 8:49 AM on December 21, 2015

Is Violet Crown the one next to the ice rink downtown? Did the other one up 29 North close?

The Violet Crown replaced that theater downtown, and the one I think you're thinking of on 29, was shut down a few years ago.

Locally in Columbia, Mo, I showed up about an hour and a half early and was immediately ushered along to my theater. It was nice.
posted by Atreides at 8:52 AM on December 21, 2015

Do we have any info as to when the massacre of the new trainee Jedi happened? Was it Kylo Ren or could it be another Ren? Older brother etc?

Unfortunately, no, and that timing drives me batty (see above somewhere). It does seem that at least Ren left the academy, was trained by Snoke and formed (or became a part of) the Knights of Ren, and returned to massacre the Jedi. After all, his promise to his grandpappy's mask was to finish what he had started, presumably referring to the Dark Times when Vader (and we now know also Inquisitors) eliminated the Jedi.
posted by Atreides at 8:54 AM on December 21, 2015

I find it very telling that although my kid has grudgingly accepted that Captain Rex could not possibly still be alive during TFA, he continues to hold out hope that Ashoka will appear in the next installment (or maybe Rogue One).
posted by anastasiav

I do too, though it's hard to think she could have gone totally unnoticed through the events of the Original Trilogy.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:05 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

So I had the early Christmas gathering with my brother and his family yesterday; my niece and nephew are 7 and 4 (touchingly, that's also how old me and my brother were when WE saw A New Hope at a drive-in on a family vacation in 1977). My brother has shown the movies to the kids on DVD, and plans to take them to The Force Awakens (but probably won't for a while - they live in a small town near Cape Cod and the only theaters screening this are sold out for weeks still).

The interesting bit is that my nephew apparently flat-out loves Darth Vader. He insisted throughout the first two movies that he was "a good guy", even after my brother gave him a come-to-Jesus during the second film explaining that "no, he's supposed to be the bad guy". My nephew apparently just nodded skeptically. But then during ROTJ, when Palpatine is attacking Luke and Darth throws Palpatine off the bridge, my nephew apparently jumped up and said "see? I KNEW Darth Vader was a good guy!" (He even chimed in when my brother was relating this story, telling me that "I saw when Darth Vader saved Luke!")

In other words: I think my nephew is Kylo Ren.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:14 AM on December 21, 2015 [38 favorites]

The weird chest thumping is consistent with my theory that Adam Driver is the same character in Girls, because he's totally do that for no reason.
posted by Artw at 9:17 AM on December 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

If anything the major failure here is that the result wasn't a hundred little fiefdoms running around with the Empire's sizable resources.

Tarkin has a line about oh hell I'll just google it

"The regional governors now have direct control over their territories."

A couple things would make sense after RotJ: a) that the Empire would break up into small factions (this is how things went in the EU, and in the EU properties that didn't suck, it more or less worked) and b) that the Republic would have to utilize much of the existing Imperial infrastructure in order to maintain some continuity of government. This would be one way to make sense of the First Order/Resistance situation, if the Republic was basically the Empire with a newly-minted senate plopped on top to replace Palpatine's dictatorial rule, and there wasn't any political will to oppose the First Order outright because the First Order was essentially a militant ultrarightist movement within the Republic, rather than a thing wholly outside it.

But then you have Snoke and the fact that they blew up whatever seat-of-government planet looked like but wasn't Coruscant, so I dunno.

Snoke theory: doesn't he kinda look like those creepy assholes Palpatine brought on the shuttle with him when he visited the Death Star II? One gets the sense that Palpatine wouldn't be very chummy with people who weren't fairly well marinated in the Dark Side, and Snoke looks like he got burned up pretty bad at some point, so maybe he's one of those dudes who somehow survived the explosion. Revealing him as such would be more of a "huh, okay" moment than an "OMG WOW" moment though so probably not.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:24 AM on December 21, 2015

I don't think the chest-thumping is weird if you understand it as him deliberately aggravating his blaster wound so as to let more anger & pain flow through him (thanks to Justin Case above)

....

I swear this will be my last time bean-plating this particular detail.
posted by LegallyBread at 9:33 AM on December 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

Maybe Rey's parentage can be determined through midichlorian matching.

GET_OUT.JPG
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 9:42 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

A couple things would make sense after RotJ: a) that the Empire would break up into small factions (this is how things went in the EU, and in the EU properties that didn't suck, it more or less worked) and b) that the Republic would have to utilize much of the existing Imperial infrastructure in order to maintain some continuity of government. This would be one way to make sense of the First Order/Resistance situation, if the Republic was basically the Empire with a newly-minted senate plopped on top to replace Palpatine's dictatorial rule, and there wasn't any political will to oppose the First Order outright because the First Order was essentially a militant ultrarightist movement within the Republic, rather than a thing wholly outside it.

From what I've gathered so far from the new EU, the Alliance embarked on a multiple planet "clean up" so to speak to seek out Imperial resistance and wipe it out. This essentially culminated in the Battle of Jakku, where one of the main principal Imperial power mongers decided to have one final battle to settle the affair between the Empire (which by this point was really a conglomeration of war lords who had grabbed what power and resources they could) and the Alliance. The Empire lost that day.

In Aftermath there's a conflict among the inner circle of the Rebel Alliance on the path for the New Republic. Mon Mothma pushed for a demilitarized Republic (i.e., never have the military power to dominate like the Empire did) while others, Ackbar among them, believed that a strong military would keep the Republic safe. Through the course of the book, there's a meeting among the more powerful individuals left in the Empire to decide the face of the Empire (pre-Jakku), headed by Admiral Sloane (introduced in New Dawn when just a captain in the time before A New Hope), but tellingly, (SPOILERS IF YOU INTEND TO READ IT STOP NOW AND SKIP DOWN), it's revealed she's working for a mysterious admiral of her own who had orchestrated the event simply to wipe out his competitors. This admiral "may or may not" be Snoke.

Ultimately, after Jakku, it's reported in Lost Stars that a treaty had been struck with whatever remainder of the Empire there was (not much) for peace. Those remnants did not become incorporated into the Empire, though former Imperials were potentially being allowed to become citizens if they weren't too high up and involved in Imperial atrocities (war criminals). Also in Aftermath there was a suggestion, by a Dark Side fanboy of Palptaine's, that they should simply shove off into the far reaches of the galaxy and do their own thing. (possibly affiliated to this guy was the growing movement of Darth Vader worshipers - potentially the origins of the Knights of Ren - who were avidly seeking Vader's lightsaber).

Sooooo....in short, the First Order is probably the evolved entity of the strongest remnant of the Empire that has simply been biding its time in its treaty territory for the chance to strike back at the New Republic. The New Republic, knowledgeable that there's a military organization that wants it dead, but not wanting or unable to go into full fledged war, secretly funds the Resistance to operate within a neutral or First Order territory to bring it down from within.

Worse, though, is the fact that the new EU has simply not strove to fill that thirty year gap between Jedi and this movie. At best it's a year out of RTOJ and has only laid out the potential seeds of what came to pass over these past few decades. Apparently, when they tagged every new book or comic with "Journey to the Force Awakens," they meant a journey to your bank's ATM or credit card to buy their stuff leading up to the movie. As I understand it, the visual guide just released has some info in it, but even then, kinda scarce. They will either have to release a book or something that significantly brings us up to date or we'll be waiting forever for these answers to truly be solved.
posted by Atreides at 9:49 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

potentially the origins of the Knights of Ren - who were avidly seeking Vader's lightsaber

I'll be disappointed if Vader's saber shows up at all. It fell down the same shaft the Emperor did and got blowed up real good along with the Death Star II.
posted by Fleebnork at 9:54 AM on December 21, 2015

I'll be disappointed if Vader's saber shows up at all. It fell down the same shaft the Emperor did and got blowed up real good along with the Death Star II.

I would agree. In the book, the lightsaber does have a red blade, but from the seller's POV, it was implied it was simply a lightsaber with a red blade, and he had no clue if it truly had any relation to Vader at all. It was presented much more like someone making an opportunistic sale than strongly advertising a belief that the merchandise was what the buyer thought it was.
posted by Atreides at 10:04 AM on December 21, 2015

Atreides: "Worse, though, is the fact that the new EU has simply not strove to fill that thirty year gap between Jedi and this movie."

I suspect they are leaving a good deal of it open for now because if they nail things down it may tie their hands for certain elements of Episodes VIII and IX that they would rather leave some room for the writers of those movies to establish, or spoil revelations that are being held for those movies.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:06 AM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

A bit of soundtrack review.
I hadn't considered the difficulty in doing leitmotif backwards for the prequels.
posted by charred husk at 10:08 AM on December 21, 2015

That's just plain abandonment, and not something you do to someone if you care if they live or die.

Which is why I'd think that she might have been placed somewhere safe, but was eventually kidnapped by pirates or something, then sold on Jakku.
posted by grubi at 10:24 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'd forgotten how disappointed in the soundtrack I was. That was probably the thing I liked least... it too often sounded like rehashes of the old themes glued together with some incidental music. Which is strange. The prequels are terrible but their soundtracks are quite fun and memorable! Maybe John Williams has just reached the limit?

I did listen to Rey's theme separately on Youtube and I do like it... it just doesn't feel like Star Wars to me.
posted by selfnoise at 10:25 AM on December 21, 2015

Hmm, now that I think about it, how come no Republic state funeral for Han? Would it resemble too much the medal ceremony in New Hope? (It's like poetry, it rhymes)
posted by FJT at 10:27 AM on December 21, 2015

"The regional governors now have direct control over their territories."

Which proves the Empire was pro-states'rights. Another reason to hate them.
posted by grubi at 10:29 AM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

Hmm, now that I think about it, how come no Republic state funeral for Han? Would it resemble too much the medal ceremony in New Hope? (It's like poetry, it rhymes)

1. There's no body.
2. How do we know they didn't have one (or are not going to) even without the body?
posted by grubi at 10:32 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I meant without the body, so it's a memorial service then. And, if there was, they didn't show it. So I guess that makes me think of why they decided not to.
posted by FJT at 10:34 AM on December 21, 2015

I thought I was going to be annoyed with Kylo Ren's lightsabre design - posters suggested the beam was rough and sparky which is Just Not Cricket. But on seeing the movie (and assuming that he built it himself) it really is a good reflection of himself; it's most of way there but still in the rough, not honed and fine-tuned. A bit crude and imperfectly contained, nonetheless vicious and dangerous.
posted by anonymisc at 10:39 AM on December 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

%n:

"So I guess that makes me think of why they decided not to."

I'm sure there was a small, private memorial, but he died working for the Resistance, which the New Republic officially disavows. Kind of like dying as part of a CIA skunkworks op - you get a nameless star on the wall because noone can know you were there.
posted by charred husk at 10:40 AM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

Which is why I'd think that she might have been placed somewhere safe, but was eventually kidnapped by pirates or something, then sold on Jakku.

That flashback seems to strongly imply that she's watching her family leave and it sure looks like Jaiku. Certainly I can't see an interpretation where she's that bothered the slavers who sold her as blasting off.
posted by phearlez at 10:42 AM on December 21, 2015

you get a nameless star on the wall because noone can know you were there.

Ouch, that has to just make it worse for Chewie and Leia. Man, I actually think this SW is more sad and depressing than ESB.
posted by FJT at 10:42 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Of course there were no Y-Wings. They're hell of obsolete. The B-Wing was developed to replace the Y-Wings, which were Clone Wars era technology ffs.

Yeah, they would have to be in their sixtieth year of active service by now. How weird would that be?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:45 AM on December 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

I think the bigger issue with Han getting a state funeral would be that there currently is no state, or what's there is in complete shambles after the total destruction of its seat of government and all the presumably billions who lived there.
posted by bettafish at 10:46 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Of course there were no Y-Wings. They're hell of obsolete. The B-Wing was developed to replace the Y-Wings, which were Clone Wars era technology ffs.

Yeah, they would have to be in their sixtieth year of active service by now. How weird would that be?

B-wings were supposed to replace Y-Wings, but the B's were hard to maintain, so the Y's stuck around a lot longer. Eventually the X's were just upgraded to be capable of bombing runs, since they were an "almost perfect blend of maneuverability and defense."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:53 AM on December 21, 2015

That's cool how there's fewer starfighters now. That's fun.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:55 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I was waiting for someone to say “The Force? Doesn’t that involve midi-chlorians in your blood or whatever?” and someone else to respond with “Midi-what? Oh yeah, no, that was some dumb thing people believed like 50 years ago. Midi-chlorians have nothing to do with The Force.”
posted by Diskeater at 10:56 AM on December 21, 2015 [13 favorites]

And [Snope]'s always debunking urban legends and email chain letters!

Via Wikipedia: "On April 25, 2014, following the acquisition of Lucasfilm by The Walt Disney Company in November 2012, it was announced that all previously released expanded universe content would be declared non-canon and rebranded as Star Wars Legends."
posted by larrybob at 10:57 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

B-wings were supposed to replace Y-Wings, but the B's were hard to maintain, so the Y's stuck around a lot longer. Eventually the X's were just upgraded to be capable of bombing runs, since they were an "almost perfect blend of maneuverability and defense."

Wookiepedia Brown.
posted by Artw at 11:08 AM on December 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

Snoke might be the worst Star Wars villain name, which is an achievement.
posted by Artw at 11:11 AM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

Dooku, man. Give the prequels some credit.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:14 AM on December 21, 2015 [26 favorites]

Eh, Dooku is pretty bad. Cad Bane always seemed like the laziest fucking name too.
posted by selfnoise at 11:15 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

The only explanation for Snoke that MAKES SENSE is that his real name is a major spoiler (somehow) and so they relied on an obviously bad name to hide it until the proper time.

Otherwise, when I first learned that was his name...I thought it was a joke. I MEAN IT EVEN RHYMES WITH 'JOKE.' Probably the one thing I loathe most about TFA.
posted by Atreides at 11:15 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Dooku is worse because Dooku is the worst everything, ever.
posted by Diskeater at 11:16 AM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

Eh, Dooku is pretty bad. Cad Bane always seemed like the laziest fucking name too.

Savage Opress. They didn't bother that day.
posted by Artw at 11:17 AM on December 21, 2015 [10 favorites]

Confirmed: Snap Wexley (played by Greg Grunberg) in the movie is Temmin Wexley from Aftermath.
posted by Atreides at 11:18 AM on December 21, 2015

I thought Nein Numb being in it was a joke. Then he shows up and whuuu-?
posted by Artw at 11:18 AM on December 21, 2015

I 99% bought Aftermath to annoy idiots but it's very solid nerd nonsense if you like that kind of thing.
posted by Artw at 11:19 AM on December 21, 2015

Hey now. That's Christopher Lee in that Dooku suit.

I kinda like villain names that don't go for obvious harsh-sounding phonemes and word associations. Weird is good, even if it sounds silly at first. Those Clone Wars names are definitely the worst.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:21 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Other achievements: JJ Abrams gives even less of a shit about how space works than Lucas even did.

(Some howhow it matters less her than in Star Trek, see also his plots being basically nonsense and coincidence. It’s about space wizards, whatevs.)
posted by Artw at 11:22 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Dooku only sucks in long shot.
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Would bet money they went full Rowling and Kylo Rens full name is Ben Anakin Solo.
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on December 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

I'm going to argue Darth Sidious is the worst because it canonified the terrible, terrible fan theory that Darth came from Dark Lord of the Sith and opened the door to such inspired names as Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Darth Bane, Darth Krayt, Darth Plagueis, Darth Millennial (no lie), Darth Ruin, Darth Nihilus, et cetera.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:24 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

...always seemed like the laziest fucking name too.
...They didn't bother that day.

So a Long Time Ago, a certain subset of parents were just as what-were-they-thinking?! when naming their kids as we see today on Earth. But sometimes their poor kids make good anyway. Yay! Good for them!

(Presumably the Empire frowns on operating under name but the one assigned to you. If you're FN-2187, then you stay FN-2187. If you start answering to some hokey nickname like "Finn", next thing you'll be joining the rebellion or something!)
posted by anonymisc at 11:24 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Darth Millennial

"Always two, there are. A master, and an unpaid intern."
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:26 AM on December 21, 2015 [79 favorites]

Ok, a couple things I haven't seen mentioned. They have a holo map of the Starkiller, but dont know how to read it until Finn points stuff out? And it looks like it's completely manufactured, like a Death Star, so then why does it have mountains and forests on it?

And I'll have to see it again, but I thought it was Phasma that was chasing the Falcon and was surprised when she showed up later. Maybe it was a black uniform and not chrome.

Seriously, why does Leia have the Force, but only in the lamest I-can-feel-sadness kind of way?

I think I laughed out loud when the ground split between Rey and Ben -which side are you on?
posted by sweetmarie at 11:32 AM on December 21, 2015

Ok, a couple things I haven't seen mentioned. They have a holo map of the Starkiller, but dont know how to read it until Finn points stuff out? And it looks like it's completely manufactured, like a Death Star, so then why does it have mountains and forests on it?

Because rather than use the resources to build a superstructure around the weapon, they simply used a planet and built the weapon inside of it.

Seriously, why does Leia have the Force, but only in the lamest I-can-feel-sadness kind of way?

It's been implied that Leia for a reason never known opted not to pursue training to use the Force, but simply remains Force sensitive (see ESB/RTOJ for past instances where she had 'feelings' about one thing or another.). In this case, she knows the Force simply enough to feel the loss of Han (same way she knew Luke was all right after the Death Star went kablooie!).
posted by Atreides at 11:36 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

They should have Leia discover a holocron containing Bastila's Battle Meditation technique, then use it to win a series of amazing battles against a superior First Order fleet.

Ok that's ridiculous fanfic, but then that's kind of where we are with this series.
posted by selfnoise at 11:40 AM on December 21, 2015

Most hilarious joyless pedantic nerd point seen so far: BB8 would not work on sand, coz no grip.. in a universe that has ftl and laser swords, I think they would have sorted out a workaround for that
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:40 AM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

The biggest problem with the complaints of BB-8 on sand is the fact that it's not a CGI creation on the sand. It's actually the BB-8 puppet rolling around (at least for some of it). One can hand wave it away by simply stating that BB-8 extends panels underneath him like paddles to propel himself and provide grip on such terrain. We can't see them because of the angle and the rest of his body smooths out the irregular indentations left in his wake. BOOM.
posted by Atreides at 11:42 AM on December 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

Most hilarious joyless pedantic nerd point seen so far: BB8 would not work on sand, coz no grip.. in a universe that has ftl and laser swords, I think they would have sorted out a workaround for that?

Lol. I mean, obviously he has a series of microscopic plastisteel hairs covering his ball that channel the sand.

testicles
posted by selfnoise at 11:44 AM on December 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

Because rather than use the resources to build a superstructure around the weapon, they simply used a planet and built the weapon inside of it.

Pedantic alert!

Sooooo, rather than building something, they found an oxygen rich planet with a stable atmosphere, then scooped out its insides to build a giant weapon that drains off the power of a local star.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:50 AM on December 21, 2015

Most hilarious joyless pedantic nerd point seen so far: BB8 would not work on sand, coz no grip..

Wat?! BB8 would work on sand... because they built one to make the movie. And used it to make the movie. And it worked. On sand.
(Demonstrably-real physics get seniority over imagination-physics :) )

^{(I'm pretty sure not all those BB8 shots were CG)}
posted by anonymisc at 11:51 AM on December 21, 2015 [15 favorites]

Most hilarious joyless pedantic nerd point seen so far: BB8 would not work on sand, coz no grip..

Er, guys, it is actually a pretty high-level nerd who brought this up.

posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:03 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Here's some trivia on Maz Kanata:

According to a couple of friends who also grew up in L.A., Maz Kanata (codename during filming: Rose) is based on an incredibly popular literature teacher at Palisades High School (where J.J. Abrams and a number of other notable alumni went to school) named Rose Gilbert. Check out her obit. Look familiar?
posted by Sophie1 at 12:06 PM on December 21, 2015 [20 favorites]

You say high level nerd, I say insufferable "well actually" killjoy
posted by cnelson at 12:08 PM on December 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

I like that neither glib geeky filmmakers nor intense nerd scientists can tell the difference between what Star Wars is and what Star Trek is.
posted by selfnoise at 12:11 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

> Er, guys, it is actually a pretty high-level nerd who brought this up.

Doesn't matter, it's contradicted by the real world: "BB-8 is very much a real robot with puppeteers. There were a few that did different scenes."

Neil would be the first to agree that when an eminent scientist says something that's contradicted by the real world, the real world take precedence.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:20 PM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

Star Wars has Proton Torpedoes and Star Trek has Photon Torpedoes.

But that's been messed up from time to time in radio dramas, comics, and other Star Wars spinoffs.
posted by larrybob at 12:22 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Neil would be the first to agree that when an eminent scientist says something that's contradicted by the real world, the real world take precedence.

I know. That is what makes it so odd. Perhaps he has been into the nog already.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:25 PM on December 21, 2015

Star Wars has Proton Torpedoes and Star Trek has Photon Torpedoes.

But that's been messed up from time to time in radio dramas, comics, and other Star Wars spinoffs.

Aherm... Photon Torpedoes have been deprecated by Quantum Torpedoes. Totally different.
posted by selfnoise at 12:26 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Look, I love me some Neil Degrasse Tyson as much as the next guy, but he prefers Trek over SW, so I'd be careful about anything he says that's critical of the Saga.
posted by grubi at 12:28 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

BB8 would not work on sand, coz no grip.

Sand is so coarse and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere. It's not soft and smooth like BB8.
posted by FJT at 12:30 PM on December 21, 2015 [58 favorites]

Looking forward to what Stephen Colbert has to say about the movie.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:31 PM on December 21, 2015

2nd viewing: just as fun as the first!

A couple thoughts:

One of the best hair-raising OMG AWESOME scenes the second time around for me was the moment in the early Falcon vs TIE Fighters chase/fight, when Rey cuts the engines to intentionally stall / flip so that Finn can shoot the TIE with his immobilized gun. Good god is that moment just awesome and breathtaking.

I am in love with how supportive the main hero cast is of one another. The new characters and the old all honestly believe in each other and praise each other and it is almost a-ironic in its approach. I suppose perhaps just: genuine.

I paid a lot more attention to what was up in Rey's flashback, and I am quite intrigued by the Knights of Ren. From what you see of Kylo Ren in that flashback, he's definitely taking out Jedi with the help of a fairly big crew, so I don't think this is just prequels-like Anakin going and killing a hundred Jedi all by his lonesome. Also, the guy taking Rey's hand is definitely the weird alien trader dude (is that Simon Pegg?).

Also, in defense of Rey (vs. "mary sue" claims): she is, in fact, not great at everything at all times. Her plan to gas the presumed First Order guys boarding the Falcon goes so badly that if it hadn't turned out to be a semi-friendly Han/Chewie, they would have almost certainly been killed or captured. Not long after that, she completely screws up in releasing the horrible beasts ("wrong fuses..."). So, yeah, I think while she's definitely capable, she makes mistakes (and I think the Force has something to do with her ease of picking up new skills).

On another note, I really enjoy that they're de-mystifying lightsabers, at least a little. Over the years, there's built up this mythos (largely EU or in RPGs) that you have to have the Force to use one at all, because otherwise you'll just kill yourself -- nevermind that Ep IV Obi-Wan hands Luke one with no training and just lets him wave it around. So, I really enjoy seeing Finn (who is presumably trained in melee weapons, just like the vibroblade (?) wielding guy he fights early in the film) wielding a lightsaber. Is a guy with the Force going to have more options with it? Sure, but it's not an insta-suicide for a normal person.

Hmm. 3 viewings? Maybe? Must consider.
posted by tocts at 12:42 PM on December 21, 2015 [14 favorites]

In further fairness to Rey, Luke taught himself how to Force-grab lightsabers stuck in snow too, and probably also the mind trick (that doesn't seem like it would be a top priority in Yoda's cirriculum, and who on Dagobah would he practice it on anyway?).
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:49 PM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

Luke has some training, but he's never actually had a swordfight in his life before Vader on Bespin, right? Which is why we get nothing like the wuxia nonsense from the prequels in the later/earlier films (thank God).
posted by selfnoise at 12:54 PM on December 21, 2015

I will try not to roll my eyes too much if Rey turns out to be Luke's kid, but if Finn is a Calrissian I am letting out a Patton Oswalt Jerry Maguire "Fuuuuck YOOOOOOOOU" in the theater.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 1:01 PM on December 21, 2015 [17 favorites]

Let's be honest here: the Republic/Resistance/First Order situation makes even less sense than the Trade Federation stuff in the prequels

Yep. Even though that all barely makes any sense, though, I don't really care. For all of the completely justifiable nit-picking and spleen vented at the prequels, their real problems weren't really the innumerable plot holes (although turning Hermit Ben into Hiding Disguised As A Jedi Ben was pretty egregious), it was that they were flatly directed films with flat characters and flat acting, so the already bad plot problems were magnified to small moon size.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:04 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

I will try not to roll my eyes too much if Rey turns out to be Luke's kid, but if Finn is a Calrissian I am letting out a Patton Oswalt Jerry Maguire "Fuuuuck YOOOOOOOOU" in the theater.

Or Mace Windu's kid! Nah, I don't think they'd be that dumb.

I'm coming around to the idea that to pull off the whole ~~beat-for-beat reboot~~ mythic resonance thing, there needs to be a shocking reveal of Rey's parentage in episode VIII. But if it turns out Rey is Luke's daughter, everyone's gonna be like YEP SAW THAT COMING and it won't be shocking. So there's got to be some other explanation. "Results of an attempt to clone Anakin" is one fan theory I've heard.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:08 PM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

"Results of an attempt to clone Anakin" is one fan theory I've heard.

I bet Ridley could knock some emotional turmoil at that revelation clear out of the fucking park.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 1:13 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

I have to disagree. The Republic/Resistance/FO thing makes way more sense. Exactly what the situation is between the two Rs is unclear but it doesn't matter for our purposes. We're not even really clear on whether the Republic and FO are in a detente, regularly having military exchanges, or whatever. And, again, for our purposes it doesn't matter. The Trade Federation stuff matters because how it goes apparently shifts the power and course of history.

In this movie the course of history is shifted when the FO fires up a weapon that can blow the shit out of a bazillion people. At that point the relationship between the Resistance and the Republic is pretty irrelevant, as is my relationship with a man-sized invisible rabbit named Harvey. Unless I or the Resistance insist on going on like either of those things exist now, but that's kind of a different problem.

That's not to say the Star Wars universe doesn't have a huge problem with how resources and construction work, and it bugs me, but that hangs over everything - not just government relations.
posted by phearlez at 1:16 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

for added parallelism, "there is another," and in the climax of episode IX Rey fights her clone-brother, played by

okay I just googled what Jake Lloyd has been up to these days and I feel pretty bummed now
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:19 PM on December 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

Way late to the discussion, but I liked it. Abrams managed to reign in (or had reigned in for him) his deficiencies as a writer and a director. It's a lot of retreading the main trilogy, but it does so in a really fun way. The new blood characters are exciting and fairly different, and I'm looking forward to seeing them again.

As an aside, I really liked Fin's character being a sort of blank slate to the rest of the universe. He's mainly trying to survive (at first), he's a trained slave warrior, so a lot of stuff is new to him (like him being perplexed that there aren't just blasters everywhere), and Fin is just a really great character with a satisfying arc.

Anyway, I'm pleased with it. It's also going to gross like 800 million domestic. Disney is making their bones back with this one.
posted by codacorolla at 1:23 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

On another note, I really enjoy that they're de-mystifying lightsabers, at least a little.

I liked that, but thought that overall they went further the other way (and badly) - introducing the idea that Luke's sabre was calling to Rey, as if it's not a tool or an heirloom but a mystic magic totem, infused with Meaning.
A weapon shouldn't be the soul-stone of a jedi, and giving worshipful status to weapons starts getting war-porny.

The original movie did it right - Ben Kenobi digs it out of the closet, an inert old piece of metal and craftsmanship, and hand it to the kid. An heirloom, an elegant hand-made tool, not some magic wand full of mystic visions.
posted by anonymisc at 1:25 PM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

Little Anakin sure could pilot a fighter plane pretty fucking well after being in one for five minutes.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Oh! One other thing I liked. During the catwalk confrontation, Han says "You know it's true." It's a subtle callback to Vader and Luke's exhortations to "Search your feelings! You know it to be true!" but not ham-handedly using the exact same words, because Han has never had to search his feelings. He's all feelings, all the time. Han completely wears his heart on his sleeve through every second of these films, even while Leia and Luke learn to disguise their thoughts and feelings, even when he thinks he's being cool as a cucumber.
posted by infinitewindow at 1:27 PM on December 21, 2015 [14 favorites]

phearlez: "Unless I or the Resistance insist on going on like either of those things exist now, but that's kind of a different problem."

Hmm. I don't think we are meant to believe the Republic is destroyed as a result of the Starkiller attack? It destroyed the new capital, but I'm sure there is enough decentralization that the Republic can continue to exist. The USA wouldn't disappear if Washington DC was blown up. It would probably be better off! Politicians, amirite, folks?
posted by Rock Steady at 1:27 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

infinitewindow: "During the catwalk confrontation, Han says "You know it's true." It's a subtle callback to Vader and Luke's exhortations to "Search your feelings! You know it to be true!""

I swear, as we were sitting in the theater during the trailers, I told my daughter that the two lines she would be sure to hear in this movie would be "I've got a bad feeling about this" (the Rathtars) and "Search your feelings". I agree that it was an even more powerful callback that Han didn't say it than it would have been if he did. I also think he probably didn't want Kylo doing too any feeling searching at all.
posted by Rock Steady at 1:32 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Concept art for Snoke: František Kupka’s Resistance, or The Black Idol (1903).
posted by larrybob at 1:34 PM on December 21, 2015 [13 favorites]

The USA wouldn't disappear if Washington DC...

Now I'm imagining the Pentagon as the muzzle-top of a giant beam weapon built out of planet Earth... :)
posted by anonymisc at 1:34 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'll search my feelings in my room, dad! Gonna put on NIN far too loud and do that right now!
posted by Artw at 1:34 PM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

You know, son, if you search your feelings too much you'll go blind, or worse. Look what happened to your uncle Chewie!
posted by infinitewindow at 1:37 PM on December 21, 2015 [18 favorites]

/plaintive roar.
posted by Artw at 1:39 PM on December 21, 2015 [17 favorites]

Oh really? That must have been very difficult. You're quite brave.
posted by meinvt at 1:46 PM on December 21, 2015 [18 favorites]

Fave callback: Han Solo menaced by a Scottish gangster.
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on December 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

Twice now Abrams pulls this shit.
posted by Artw at 2:04 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

So since the Falcon was able to exit hyperspace in atmosphere, I feel like it's probably ok if maybe destructive to things around you to jump into hyperspace from in the atmosphere Adama Style, in which case those government buildings in the capital really should be essentially huge escape ships capable of hyperspace travel with preprogrammed jump calculations if your main enemy is pretty much the same guys who built two Death Stars.

Shhh, you're thinking too much. This is all nostalghia and good feelings. It's calling to you. Just let it in.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:06 PM on December 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

Shhh, you're thinking too much. This is all nostalghia and good feelings. It's calling to you. Just let it in.

It's also just a really good movie, I usually only nitpick stuff I actually enjoy because it's fun to beanplate.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:11 PM on December 21, 2015

Phasma was a bit shit.
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on December 21, 2015

Phasma was a bit shit.

There is an ancient Jedi proverb:

"She who fights not, and is a bit shit
lives to make her mark on the next big hit" :)
posted by anonymisc at 2:16 PM on December 21, 2015 [17 favorites]

So since the Falcon was able to exit hyperspace in atmosphere, I feel like it's probably ok if maybe destructive to things around you to jump into hyperspace from in the atmosphere Adama Style, in which case those government buildings in the capital really should be essentially huge escape ships capable of hyperspace travel with preprogrammed jump calculations if your main enemy is pretty much the same guys who built two Death Stars.

FTL travel is like time travel. Once you introduce it nothing makes sense period. Unlike time travel, however, it is both fun... and cool.

Phasma was a bit shit.

There wasn't any time left in the movie to have her do anything. They would have been better off just having her lurk menacingly in the first scene and then save her for the next film.
posted by selfnoise at 2:17 PM on December 21, 2015

You don't get to be the new Biba Fett bring menacing in the background AND falling down a big hole in the same movie.
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Little Anakin sure could pilot a fighter plane pretty fucking well after being in one for five minutes.

And wasn't that a high point of the saga?!
posted by entropicamericana at 2:20 PM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

I am so happy there is no fucking time travel in this universe.
posted by Artw at 2:21 PM on December 21, 2015 [10 favorites]

I wonder if Rey and the Falcon were stolen by the trader at the same time - Han and Chewie could have been trying to track the Falcon to find the girl.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:21 PM on December 21, 2015

After they sucked the entire sun into Death Planet I thought it was going to be darker outside. And everything standing on planet + stored-up sun juice would be a LOT heavier
posted by theodolite at 2:22 PM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

And everything standing on planet + stored-up sun juice would be a LOT heavier

The non-evidence of physics with putting a sun inside a planet was bugging the crap out of me, but in a protracted battle and heroic effort to regain suspension of disbelief, I sternly and firmly pointed out to myself that I already knew and accepted that they have faster-than-light, therefore my physics is invalid. I then proceeded to enjoy myself and have a good time. :)

But yeah, I wish they hadn't tried to out-deathstar the death-star that out-deathstarred the death-star.
posted by anonymisc at 2:28 PM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

Still hard to reconcile "they knew Rey existed" with "but were ok with leaving her as a tiny girl at the mercy of hostile assholes in a place she might easily have died." Even Luke had his aunt and uncle.

They clearly show her being left with someone. I just assumed that person is supposed to have died, when she was old enough to figure stuff out on her own.

Maybe it's that person speedercycle thing?
posted by emptythought at 2:29 PM on December 21, 2015

They left her with the asshole portions alien voiced by Simon Pegg.
posted by infinitewindow at 2:31 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

They just had the antigrav units they put on speeder bikes pointing up from under the surface, keeping the experienced pull of gravity the same on the surface as it increases beneath /noprize
posted by jason_steakums at 2:32 PM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

I would imagine that the evil slaver (well, I guess sharecropper) alien took her in under false pretenses. But that was definitely his arm she was clinging to in her lightsabre induced flashback.
posted by codacorolla at 2:44 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Good use of animated gif on Twitter: "@BlackGirlNerds: .@neiltyson in #TheForceAwakens like"
posted by larrybob at 2:45 PM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

They left her with the asshole portions alien voiced by Simon Pegg.

On a note: Pegg was in a costume, not just doing voice over work. Though, the costume definitely made me think CGI of some sort was involved.
posted by Atreides at 2:45 PM on December 21, 2015

John Boyega is awesome
posted by Artw at 3:05 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Shower thoughts: Han/Leia/Luke represent us who grew up with the originals, Rey/Finn/BB8 are for the new generation for whom this is the one they "saw in the cinema". Poor bitter Kylo Ren is the tragic lost generation brought to see the Prequels and told it was Star Wars.
posted by Iteki at 3:16 PM on December 21, 2015 [53 favorites]

Poor bitter Kylo Ren is the tragic lost generation brought to see the Prequels and told it was Star Wars.

Don't feel too sorry for us. We still have the best Star Wars games compared to either generation.
posted by FJT at 3:26 PM on December 21, 2015 [15 favorites]

When watching the first time, I was simultaneously aware of both interpretations and I was unsure whether Kylo Ren gave the lightsaber to Han as in order to surrender or to have Han kill him. I was waiting for someone to do something that would settle what Kylo Ren's intentions were. And nothing settled it. Watch it again with this other reading in mind! There are two viable readings here, which is really cool.

Precisely the way I felt. As I watched the scene, I was totally aware that both possibilities were being hinted at, but that it wasn't going to end well no matter what. I strongly feel that ambiguity was deliberate, and it was well done.

At the end, Rey follows Chewie down the Falcon's gangplank. Chewie approaches Leia (and you can feel his shoulders sagging), but Leia walks right past him and engages Rey in a full embrace. But at this point in the film, Leia has not yet met Rey. Leia knows a young woman had been instrumental in getting BB-8 to her, and was being held by the First Order, but she ostensibly doesn't know anything else about Rey. So why such a warm welcome? It seems to me that Leia might know far more about Rey's background than we do at this point.

This struck me very strongly as well. I was hoping it wasn't just a bum note, so to speak, and was deliberately setting something up for later. I feel like the latter is probably the case -- there was a lot of subtle stuff going on in offhand comments characters make and little tiny sideline story beats that seemed very deliberate, if often ambiguous, but always in service of something to be paid off later.

I think the people who made this were very much aware of the slightly obsessive nature of much of the fandom, and were consciously packing in hints, allusions, misdirections, and ambiguity in the background, as yet more fan service.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:34 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I couldn't help but notice that the first half of the movie was taking place literally in the wreckage of the original trilogy. I was wondering if that was intentional symbolism.
posted by codacorolla at 3:35 PM on December 21, 2015 [20 favorites]

Well, when Han says something like "It wasn't all bad -- some of it was pretty good" and Leia says "Some of it" I couldn't help but think that they were also talking about the previous movies, which made me laugh (even if it took me out of the moment a bit).
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:51 PM on December 21, 2015 [20 favorites]

In Aftermath there's a conflict among the inner circle of the Rebel Alliance on the path for the New Republic. Mon Mothma pushed for a demilitarized Republic (i.e., never have the military power to dominate like the Empire did) while others, Ackbar among them, believed that a strong military would keep the Republic safe.

I'm just a sucker for any recreation of the Federalist debate, to be honest, so I'm pretty down with this.

I'm coming around to the idea that to pull off the whole beat-for-beat reboot mythic resonance thing, there needs to be a shocking reveal of Rey's parentage in episode VIII.

I don't think there is any reveal of Rey's parentage that could be similarly shocking. Why is the Empire reveal such a dramatic plot twist?

1. Luke has never known his father, but is hungry for information about him. "You knew my father?" Rey may or may not know who her parents are, but she doesn't evince anything like the same curiosity.

2. While her parentage may be a mystery to us at this point, it doesn't entirely seem to be to her, but much more to the point, at this stage after Ep IV, Luke's parentage isn't a mystery to us or to him. We think we know where Luke came from, and so does he. He isn't wondering who his father is throughout Empire.

3. Luke has spent two movies first idolizing the Rebellion and then helping to lead it, trying to do what he thinks his father did. Vader is the embodiment of everything he has been working against his entire adult life, everything he thinks his father would have hated and indeed died resisting. Discovering that his father is still alive as Luke always secretly hoped but is the epitome of evil is shattering. There's no real similar idolization for Rey, who is a survivor just trying to get along on a remote planet and hasn't wanted to be involved in the grand sweep of history. The only person you could point to is Luke Skywalker, and Rey thinks Luke Skywalker is a legendary hero. Finding out that Luke is her father would be awesome, not horrifying.

Rey doesn't fit the pattern. You know who does? Kylo Ren. We think we know who Kylo Ren's grandfather is, and so does he. He's spent all this time idolizing Vader and then leading a movement in his name. He's hungry for bits and pieces of Anakin, from the mask to the actual saber. We're all wondering who Rey's parents are, so there isn't an answer that's going to be totally surprising or turn the story on its head. We are not at all wondering what Kylo Ren's heritage is, because we think we know. I personally believe they're going to have to do something different than the familial plot twist because everyone's expecting it, but if they do go back to the well, the best candidate isn't Rey.
posted by Errant at 3:52 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

But at this point in the film, Leia has not yet met Rey. Leia knows a young woman had been instrumental in getting BB-8 to her, and was being held by the First Order, but she ostensibly doesn't know anything else about Rey. So why such a warm welcome?

They are both force sensitives, and can sense that in each other. And Leia knows that Han has died, and Rey can sense that. And Leia can sense Rey's grief at Han's death also.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:55 PM on December 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

Finding out Luke is Kylo Ren's father would be an ungood twist for everybody involved, including the audience and me just thinking of it just now.
posted by Artw at 3:56 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

With the amount of fan-service in evidence, I suspect/hope that fan reactions to and fan criticisms of TFA are going to be used to inform some of these story decisions in the rest of the story, rather than just forge ahead with the original plan regardless of whether that's still a good plan.

(But I was similarly hoping that the Hobbit movies would learn from the errors of the first movie that they could (and should) be regular length movies and people would like them more because of it, but no, they forged ahead and insisted on saddling every subsequent would-have-otherwise-been-good movie with fifty-seven hours of awful padding and fluff because... I don't know? Because a Lord of the Rings runlength was the template?)
posted by anonymisc at 4:04 PM on December 21, 2015

We've established that Rey was waiting for her family, but we don't know who her family is. There's going to be a reveal. Might be her folks were anonymous spice traders, but I kinda doubt it.

And I'm really not seeing Luke as the type to be littering the galaxy with his Force-sensitive by-blows.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:05 PM on December 21, 2015

Liked the movie! Thought it was weird that it was so much hewing to the original film, but I suppose a modern Homeric epic can stand a few rewrites.

What's the deal with all the red shoulders? The Stormtroopers pauldrons, which the Internets tell me is a thing that's been done before. OK. But also C-3PO's red arm. Even Finn/Poe's jacket has an assymetrical red patch on one shoulder.
posted by Nelson at 4:17 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

No one's even talking about Maz Kanata's parents, I suppose because there's no question it was Edna Mode and her first husband, an Oompa Loompa.
posted by nom de poop at 4:20 PM on December 21, 2015 [42 favorites]

I am so happy there is no fucking time travel in this universe.

It's just a matter of time.

Btw, I don't think this one has been posted here yet: 33 Questions We Desperately Want Answered After Star Wars: The Force Awakens (from io9). Most have been covered in this thread already, but there are some things there that I haven't seen elsewhere (like the connection to "The Raid").
posted by effbot at 4:25 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Nelson: don't forget the red section on the front of the new TIE fighters.
posted by biffa at 4:29 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Entertainment Weekly article quoting Arndt and Abrams as saying R2-D2 got the map of where Jedi temples were when he plugged into the Death Star's data banks back in Episode IV.
posted by larrybob at 4:41 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Weird. I thought Artoo would have learned about the Jedi temples when he was living in the Jedi temples during Anakin's training. Wait, no... that didn't happen! I forgot! None of any of that ever happened!
posted by anonymisc at 4:48 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

I know I've been focusing on the tangential things - Stars' reactions, audience reactions - chalk it up to having worked in theater, and grooving on that stuff just as much as the actual script and production.

Towards that end - John Boyega is now one of my favorite people because he is having SO MUCH FUCKING FUN with this. During filming he would do things like drag Harrison Ford out to cheap hole-in-the-wall restaurants in London, he brought all his buddies to the London Premiere and got a shot standing with them on the red carpet, he jumped over a couch when he first saw the trailer, and apparently on the night of the U.S. premiere he was bouncing around a handful of New York theaters and just dropping into the space during the closing credits to surprise fans, and to THANK THEM for seeing it.

LOVE THIS GUY NOW.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:53 PM on December 21, 2015 [39 favorites]

Entertainment Weekly article quoting Arndt and Abrams as saying R2-D2 got the map of where Jedi temples were when he plugged into the Death Star's data banks back in Episode IV.

Soooo, wouldn't someone else have that map also? Like an offsite backup or something? A Star Destroyer perhaps? "Hey there visiting Star Destroyer? Want a copy of the map of Jedi temples? Oh, I don't know why you'd need it, but seeing as its a map to all the temples of our enemies, just hold onto it, ok?"

Honestly, just stop trying to explain this stuff, because it makes no goddamn sense at all. Bask in the feelings!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:58 PM on December 21, 2015

Entertainment Weekly article quoting Arndt and Abrams as saying R2-D2 got the map of where Jedi temples were when he plugged into the Death Star's data banks back in Episode IV.

So that's what took him so long: he was grabbing copies of everything on the Emperor's Dropbox account.
posted by grubi at 4:58 PM on December 21, 2015 [14 favorites]

There's a lot here to support the R2D2 as secret mastermind theory.
posted by Artw at 5:05 PM on December 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

I liked this essay: The Force Awakens is deeply broken. It makes the argument that there's really two stories here: The Search for Luke (starring new cast) and then also Destroying Starkiller (starring old cast). And that the two stories don't really belong together in one movie. I liked the film as-is so I'm not going to say that this was all a huge mistake. But it did highlight something that was bugging me about the story.
posted by Nelson at 5:17 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

The recent Nerdist podcast with Kathleen Kennedy is pretty good. Some interesting criticisms of George Lucas in there if you read between the lines.
posted by entropicamericana at 5:35 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Re Mary Sue stuff: "What kind of a rancid garbage person watches one of these movies and decides this is the improbable thing we’re going to raise a fucking ruckus about?"
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:38 PM on December 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

Not to imply or endorse the suggestion that anyone here is a rancid garbage person, of course. I just thought that was a... redolent pullquote.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:40 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Just because Rey waited about fifteen years for her family doesn't mean that was the plan. Perhaps she was only to stay there for a week or two while her parents ran some mission or whatever and what was initially a sub-optimal, temporary solution turned into, well, her life.
I can also imagine a reluctant caretaker becoming increasingly distant as she grew, long after the cash ran out, and treating her much enough like anyone else local.
posted by Iteki at 5:41 PM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

If Rey is Luke's kid (I mean... how is this not the case?) then feelings of resentment and abandonment are going to be a major aspects of the plot in the next movie. The story in all of these movies have been about a Jedi getting tempted by the dark side, and I think that those dark feelings are going to be a source of Rey's temptation.
posted by codacorolla at 5:56 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

A weapon shouldn't be the soul-stone of a jedi, and giving worshipful status to weapons starts getting war-porny.

I don't entirely disagree, but in fairness to Abrams this isn't his doing. It is my understanding that some level of lightsabers-as-mystic-totem stuff has shown in up the cartoon iterations of Star Wars in recent years.

Also, I know first hand that quite a lot of effort in other Star Wars sources (e.g. the RPGs and sourcebooks) is focused on the crystals that power lightsabers, and how rare and precious they are, etc. There's even a whole explanation of why Sith lightsabers are usually red, because you see they usually use synthetic crystals because they're not patient enough or selective enough in who they train to be able to find real ones for everyone, I guess? And those are usually/always red hued, and also they don't last very long and blah blah fictional tech wankery.

For added fun, the crystals used to make lightsabers are called kyber crystals. In early drafts of the original Star Wars, the plot focused on a macguffin called the Kyber Crystal, which was some sort of force-sensitive holocron memory thing and has nothing to do with lightsabers. This is somehow not quite the same thing as a Kaiburr Crystal, which was used in one of the earliest EU novels?

George Lucas loves re-purposing names like nobody else.
posted by tocts at 6:08 PM on December 21, 2015

Rey is related to Obi-Wan, so when she and Kylo Ren face each other once more we'll have another Skywalker/Kenobi battle on our hands.
posted by crossoverman at 6:26 PM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

Rejected title: Star Wars VII: The Search For Luke

I prefer the sequel, Star Wars VIII: The Search for C3PO's Original Arm
posted by knuckle tattoos at 6:42 PM on December 21, 2015 [12 favorites]

I agree that her not being Luke's kid would be more satisfying, but do you think that they'll introduce a whole new set of characters to explain her parentage? Abrams loves stories about conflicted fatherhood more than he loves air, water, and lens flair.
posted by codacorolla at 6:46 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

I just thought that was a... redolent pullquote.

What an incredible smell you've discovered!
posted by knuckle tattoos at 6:48 PM on December 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

You'd think more people would be upset thst a female heroine has to be portrayed as twice as good as her male counterpart to be taken seriously.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:52 PM on December 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

What an incredible smell you've discovered!

And you thought they smelled bad on the outside!
posted by crossoverman at 7:25 PM on December 21, 2015

You'd think more people would be upset thst a female heroine has to be portrayed as twice as good as her male counterpart to be taken seriously.

Yeah, that's too close to real life. This is a Space Opera!
posted by crossoverman at 7:25 PM on December 21, 2015

You know Mark Hamill is just itching to deliver the line "Rey... I am your father."
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:44 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Just imagine how differently this would all have played out if the Star Wars universe had ever invented color photography!
posted by Andrhia at 7:51 PM on December 21, 2015

do you think that they'll introduce a whole new set of characters to explain her parentage?

Well, they don't have to: they could just have her be a person who happens to be strong in the Force.

I kind of hate the idea that all the important people in this galaxy happen to be Skywalkers or related to Skywalkers. Dynasties are BAD, people!
posted by suelac at 8:04 PM on December 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

Well, they don't have to: they could just have her be a person who happens to be strong in the Force.

Once again, agreed that this would be better, but then most of the shots in the flashback are wasted, and the subplot of waiting for her parents to rescue her from Tat-two-ine just sort of fizzles.
posted by codacorolla at 8:15 PM on December 21, 2015

Calling it now: Luke killed Rey's father.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:39 PM on December 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

And Rey's father is...Boba Fett!
posted by FJT at 8:44 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Her mother? The Sarlacc.
posted by tocts at 8:46 PM on December 21, 2015 [13 favorites]

'The Force Awakens' Meets 'Please, Mr. Kennedy' (Inside Llewyn Davis)

"Does it work? Yes it does."
posted by wallawallasweet at 8:49 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

It is of course kind of weird how everyone knows everyone or has some connection with them. You could say it was implausible coincidence, or you could say it was the Force... I would simply say that the Star Wars aligned.
posted by Artw at 8:50 PM on December 21, 2015

I just wanted to say that I'm in the minority; I think "Snoke" is a fun bad guy name. It beats the hell out of most bad guy names that try way too hard to sound sinister by sounding like sinister words, etc.
posted by Gymnopedist at 9:18 PM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

It's Han Solo, but his temper doesn't flare as much. He gets his kicks from subtler digs. He's seen it before, and enough times that someone-else's screw-up isn't his emergency any more.

No Galaxy For Old Men.
posted by mazola at 9:36 PM on December 21, 2015 [13 favorites]

I'm kinda wondering if Rey isn't related to Qui Gon because he'd be a curveball when everyone's thinking she's a Skywalker AND since they set up the idea that he figured out the Force Ghost thing at the end of Episode III they could interact. And it would be a good reason to bring Neeson back for a much better movie than TPM.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:14 PM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

I think "Snoke" is a fun bad guy name.

Yeah, if you think less "sounds like joke" and more "sounds like smoke" with maybe some Snape thrown in, it's fine. Better than Darth-anything (other than Vader)
posted by anonymisc at 10:16 PM on December 21, 2015

Yeah, if you think less "sounds like joke" and more "sounds like smoke" with maybe some Snape thrown in, it's fine. Better than Darth-anything (other than Vader)

My kid kept calling him Snook which my stupid brain turned into "Snooki" and now I can't get away from it.

also Kathleen Kennedy says "all the cast members" will be in episode VIII". She seems to be including Ford as well, but who the hell knows.
posted by anastasiav at 10:31 PM on December 21, 2015

Snoop Darthy Darth.
posted by Artw at 10:42 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

So Kylo's got that Vader worship thing, and Snoke is this tall, scarred mystery figure... It would be very easy for Snoke to manipulate Kylo if he was pretending to BE Vader. Who actually knows that Vader died? Those stories are just Rebel propaganda! But keep it on the DL and call me Snoke in mixed company, Kylo, this is just between me and my favorite grandson...
posted by jason_steakums at 10:46 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Just got back from a second viewing. Some further thoughts:

- Lor San Tekka (Max von Sydow) doesn't appear to have any idea that Rey exists, or vice versa. Poe get the map from him at the village. Ren invades and kills everyone, BB-8 runs off, travels across the desert all night, and winds up outside Rey's home the following evening. So there's no real sense (from the movie, anyway, can't say about the tie-ins) that they have anything to do with each other.

- The opening crawl calls him "an old ally", which is weird for a character we've never met, but he and Ren definitely know each other very well.

- The death planet stuff was a lot less intrusive this time. It exists mostly as an action-based metronome to give a sense of position to the individual duels and encounters.

- I feel like I was much too harsh on Adam Driver the first time around. I was able to settle and take in his performance this viewing, and he's really amazing. The stuff that seemed a little hammy at first is a lot more nuanced and layered as I watch it again. His line readings are outstanding.

- I was not too harsh on Harrison Ford, but it does bother me less now that I know the shape of his story. More investment from him would have gone a long way, but eh, the character's dead now, I'm not going to spend a lot of time kicking him around.

- Rey has a lot more vulnerability and frailty than a lot of people have given her credit for. The last fight is a good example: people are griping about how she just picks up a saber and is a master blade, but actually Ren pretty much kicks the crap out of her, right up until he inadvertently reminds her that the Force is a thing, and then she relaxes and hands it all back. But she's definitely not preternaturally competent. She's just regular competent, and I wonder if we're collectively inverting the "twice as good to get half as far" thing with her.

- Poe and Finn's brodown is still great.

- In Rey's Force vision, she sees Ren stab a guy and then the image resolves into what appears to be the Knights of Ren. But this time, it looked a whole lot from Rey's first-person POV like the guy who Ren stabs was attacking her. He has a weapon over his head, he looks like he's bringing it down on the viewer while screaming, and then he gets impaled back to front on Ren's saber. Ren is also the only one with a saber ignited in the group shot, and there's something about the blocking that makes it seem as though he might be surrounded and menaced by that group, not necessarily leading them. It goes by very quickly, so I'm not totally sure about that stuff, but it looked very different this time than I first thought.
posted by Errant at 11:22 PM on December 21, 2015 [17 favorites]

Don't feel too sorry for us. We still have the best Star Wars games compared to either generation

I seem to be very confused about when X-Wing and TIE Fighter were released.
posted by flaterik at 11:23 PM on December 21, 2015 [13 favorites]

(This also works with Dark Forces)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:32 PM on December 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

(ALSO DARK FORCES)
posted by flaterik at 11:36 PM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

I seem to be very confused about when X-Wing and TIE Fighter were released.

I think if we're using Adam Driver's age (32) as the approximate age of Kylo Ren, then he would have been just born when ROTJ came out, so too young to belong to the OT generation. He would be in high school when Phantom Menace was released. I think he would have been in middle school during Dark Forces and beginning high school when XvT came out in 1997.
posted by FJT at 12:37 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I seem to be very confused about when X-Wing and TIE Fighter were released.

Spaceflight games today run on VR headsets and look like this, and this, and this. How soon until we can have a 21st-century "TIE Fighter" game? HOW SOOOOON??????
posted by anonymisc at 12:38 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think if we're using Adam Driver's age (32) as the approximate age of Kylo Ren

I'm using my own age of 36. I was brought out of an original showing of ROTJ at age 3 because Jabba the Hutt scared me.

The games mentioned were top amongst in my favorites.
posted by flaterik at 1:48 AM on December 22, 2015

Snoke might be the worst Star Wars villain name, which is an achievement.

You guys are making fun of Snoke and Dooky (and Savage Opress)?
Does no one remember Elan Sleazebaggio, deathstick dealer?
posted by Mezentian at 2:03 AM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

You will forget Elan Sleazebaggano. You will go home and rethink your life.

Savage Opress is pretty amazing though, you have to admit. I'm waiting for Episode VIII to introduce Snoke's new apprentice, Mra Seksism.
posted by Errant at 2:26 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I prefer the sequel, Star Wars VIII: The Search for C3PO's Original Arm

I love the idea that none of the humans around C-3PO could be bothered getting his replacement arm resprayed. He's like an old Ford Falcon with one door the wrong colour.
posted by rory at 2:44 AM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]

I don't get how the Starkiller thing instantaneously destroys nearby star systems with its super big laser, given that they're made of light and other star systems will presumably be several light years or more away. Feels like it would be, "Okay, I've destroyed that star system - they'll probably know in about three hundred and fifty three years when the beam hits them".

My theory for both how the suns energy is stored within the planet without causing huge problems, and how it gets places... is that the energy and the blasts the planet-canon shoots are in hyperspace and going way above the speed of light. Probably above the maximum hyperspace speed any ship could sustain without breaking apart or overloading or something.

What it's firing is the star wars universe equivalent of an ICBM, which once "ballistic" cannot be outrun or stopped. This is a way crazier weapon than the big energy/laser canon on the death stars.

As for why you see it going a visible speed within the solar system, that's also when it splits apart. The beam is contained in the hyperspace bubble until it splits and goes all MIRV within the solar system. The bubble is basically a shape charge with intentional weak points that when collapsed, sends the energy out in the directions they want it to go.

I hope there's a cool canon explanation of this, but that's what i thought as soon as i was like "how does that sun-energy go in the planet?". This is sort of the sun version of a contained singularity in lots of other scifi.

This is also supported by the fact that when they break the system the planet just turns into... a sun. That sun energy wasn't existing in normal space, it was in hyperspace occupying the same physical location as the planet. The portals on the sides of the planet are just gateways in and out of the bubble.

This also explains why it could be a planet. It doesn't need to move if it can send a hyperspace conduit/bubble anywhere it needs to go, or at least close enough to anywhere. That planet is likely in a super strategic location where it can reach the majority of the space they want to control.

It's also worth noting that in the star wars universe(Or at least, the old EU) hyperspace is handled by folding space, not by encapsulating something in a bubble of normal space while pushing the bubble faster than the speed of light. You just need a system that can suspend things between a fold, and punch a hole where you want that stuff to come out.

why did i already think about this so much?
posted by emptythought at 2:49 AM on December 22, 2015 [22 favorites]

So, is everyone else now super-stoked for Rogue One? 360 days and counting... Even though they've been careful not to use the P word, the story (as much of we know of it) sounds like the prequels done right: not focusing on Vader or Kenobi or Yoda, but on entirely new characters set in the same galaxy (though I wouldn't mind if they have a cameo for the Big D). TFA has just shown us what excellent dividends new characters - and actors who can act, and screenwriters who can write - can deliver. I'm just as keen to see Rogue One as Episode VIII, and I'm very, very keen to see VIII.
posted by rory at 3:08 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I feel like Rogue One has to have a Vader cameo in it, just for marketing's sake. I'm really excited for a Star Wars universe story that isn't part of the saga. I haven't read a lot of the EU books, but enough to know that some of them are amazing and I love this universe being fleshed out in detail.

Also, the cast they have looks freakin' incredible.
posted by crossoverman at 3:39 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I may have missed it above but there's a savage takedown of the movie's "emotional blind spots" and blithe treatment of the deaths of billions of people here. It discusses the odd storytelling that asks us to care about Han's death without showing us anything of the relationship we're supposed to be caring about on that bridge, but then really goes off on Abrams for not seriously acknowledging the billions of deaths Over There, instead valorizing the Two White Guys moment of redemption for a mass murderer. It's fairly brutal:

[T]he climax of the film asks the audience to project emotional resonance on a situation that has (and I cannot emphasize this enough) none. The Han-Ben relationship is among the emptiest I’ve ever been asked to mourn.

... [T]he franchise–and this film in particular–is catastrophically confused about its own psychology in ways that should trouble us precisely because it satisfies. Take, for example, the annihilation of several planets, and the way we’re invited to regard them as so marginal to the story that no one even seems to remember it happened by the end. When you’ve actually invented a tragedy that’s hundreds of thousands of times bigger than the Holocaust (in a film that prominently references Nazis) only in order to threaten that they’re about to do it again, in a matter of seconds, YOU CANNOT ASK YOUR AUDIENCE TO CARE THAT SOME GUY AND HIS SON ARE WASTING THOSE ESSENTIAL SECONDS HAVING A MOMENT ON A BRIDGE.

No. You cannot. That is a fatal flaw. That is an inversion of stakes so monstrous that it makes the film actually despicable.
posted by mediareport at 4:02 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

So, is everyone else now super-stoked for Rogue One?

Yes.
Yes, I am.

360 days seems so long away.

But, frankly, if they can spare me the associated marketing push? That'd be so great.
I sat through 30 minutes of ads at a theatre that shows 20 minutes at best, and about two thirds were ads with marketing tie-ins, official or unofficial, and none of them were as charming as that Superbowl one from a few years back for that car.

(But, if they are as disciplined with the trailers for SW:R1 as TFA, I would appreciate that).
posted by Mezentian at 4:05 AM on December 22, 2015

No. You cannot. That is a fatal flaw. That is an inversion of stakes so monstrous that it makes the film actually despicable.

::shrug:: A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:08 AM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

Just want to add: I hope Disney lets the anthology films stand alone, like Marvel did.
And stops for a while.
posted by Mezentian at 4:09 AM on December 22, 2015

Also, and more pleasantly, this article about the salaries of the various Warring Stars says that both Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill only got paid a couple million, while Ford got $10-20 million, because *both* of them will have more to do in the next film:

Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher took home salaries in the low-seven-figure range, according to sources. Newcomers John Boyega and Daisy Ridley were paid in the low-six-figure range ($100k-$300k).

Adam Driver and Oscar Isaac, meanwhile, received offers of mid- to high-six figures. Because Driver and Isaac had fixed quotes from previous film and TV work, sources say their deals were negotiated higher compared to Boyega and Ridley, who, for the most part, had never appeared in a large-scale film before.

Hamill and Fisher’s salaries are expected to rise in upcoming installments as their parts grow with each film.
posted by mediareport at 4:14 AM on December 22, 2015

So, is everyone else now super-stoked for Rogue One?

No, the plot seems to contradict established history ie Bothans.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:18 AM on December 22, 2015

Oops, never mind! The Bothans were involved in the second Death Star!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:22 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I just want to add that I have a 4-year-old nephew named Finn (who saw TFA over the weekend) and both he and I are greatly enjoying the idea of me calling him Big Deal from now on.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:35 AM on December 22, 2015 [25 favorites]

Oops, never mind! The Bothans were involved in the second Death Star!

You know, there were plans in Attack of the Clones... there could have been Bothans.
posted by Mezentian at 5:36 AM on December 22, 2015

No, the plot seems to contradict established history ie Kyle Katarn and Jan Ors.

FTFY. Though one of the writers is Gary Whitta, former editor of PC Gamer, so hopefully ol' Kyle won't be completely relegated to the memory hole.
posted by clorox at 6:17 AM on December 22, 2015

Sorry, don't know that reference.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:22 AM on December 22, 2015

Jurassic World producers congratulate Star Wars on beating global record
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:25 AM on December 22, 2015

Again, Abrams gave zero fucks how space works when he made Star Trek and he gives twice as zero now. And he can multiply by zero because, pffff, math. Mostly it doesn't matter because Star Wars has never really cared anyway (how does the Death Star get from place to place?) and nailing all the emotional beats with a plot that's arbitary nonsense is less of a problem there.

(I mean, *I* would have liked it if it was a hyperspace howitzer, but let's not kid ourselves about the level of thought that went into this.)
posted by Artw at 6:45 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

how does the Death Star get from place to place?

The battlestation also included two massive sublight engines in the midsection, as well as a formidable hyperdrive system. Driven by 123 individual generators tied to one navigational matrix, the Class 4 hyperdrive was fast enough to allow the Death Star to travel thousands of light years from Alderaan to Yavin IV in only a few hours.

I expect better from you ArtW. Your nerd status is hereby revoked for a period of one week. No 2000AD film for you until 29/12.
posted by biffa at 6:55 AM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

YOU CANNOT ASK YOUR AUDIENCE TO CARE THAT SOME GUY AND HIS SON ARE WASTING THOSE ESSENTIAL SECONDS HAVING A MOMENT ON A BRIDGE. No. You cannot. That is a fatal flaw. That is an inversion of stakes so monstrous that it makes the film actually despicable.

Unless some guy's son is the main villain of the story who could conceivably abort the impending holocaust if he suddenly switched sides, as his father was trying to get him to do.
posted by rory at 7:04 AM on December 22, 2015 [29 favorites]

how does the Millenium Falcon get from Hoth to Bespin?
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on December 22, 2015

Emo Kylo Ren is an amazing Twitter account.
posted by kmz at 7:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]

how does the Millenium Falcon get from Hoth to Bespin?

Very carefully.
posted by mazola at 7:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Let the record show that the wookiepedia article buffs is quoting cites the Death Star Owners Manual and I have questions regarding its canonicity. Also they never show the Death Star in Hyperspace, do they? Because it would look silly.
posted by Artw at 7:27 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

how does the Millenium Falcon get from Hoth to Bespin?

Do you mean the Millennium Falcon? Two weeks.
posted by biffa at 7:30 AM on December 22, 2015

Take, for example, the annihilation of several planets, and the way we’re invited to regard them as so marginal to the story that no one even seems to remember it happened by the end.

This line makes me wonder if the author of the piece has ever actually seen Star Wars.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:31 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

how does the Millenium Falcon get from Hoth to Bespin?

Bespin is actually just on the other side of Hoth. After the Imperial fleet jumped to hyperspace, the Falcon just swooped back to Hoth and around it. It's all there if you pay attention carefully.

Here's a thought: After Rogue One, we'll only have a five month wait to Episode VIII.

Also they never show the Death Star in Hyperspace, do they? Because it would look silly.

They never show the Emperor taking a bath, either.
posted by Atreides at 7:31 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

I don't get how the Starkiller thing instantaneously destroys nearby star systems

Absolutely nothing about this makes sense. The part that had me baffled was how all 5 planets it blew up were all within visible range of each other and the Rebellion planet, the one that at that moment the First Order didn't know yet. I mean the shot with our heroes all standing on the ground watching the giant death bolts blow up the other planets was lovely, but in no way physically plausible. Maybe all the victims were on different moons / artificial satellites in a single star system? Coincidentally orbiting the same star as the secret Rebellion base? (It's definitely a secret; there's a throwaway line about how the First Order tracked a Rebellion ship to find the base. Talk about sloppy OPSEC.)

Newcomers John Boyega and Daisy Ridley were paid in the low-six-figure range ($100k-$300k).

Wow! How is that possible? Those two actors carried the movie. I get that they were mostly unknowns, but it turns out both are great actors. And they're basically sacrificing their whole careers for this role. The article goes on to comment this is not unusual and that "back end bonuses" kick in for a presumed box office take of over $1B. Add in residuals and new contracts and OK, that starts to be star-level compensation. Still, wow.
posted by Nelson at 7:33 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

One detail I loved in the movie; the badass melee Stormtrooper with the electric weapon. I think the nerds are calling this an electrostaff, although the Clone Wars version is different.

I'll be curious to see how Rey's martial skills develop. She's not a bad shot. And she's great with a big ass quarterstaff. She was kind of awful with the saber, honestly, all clumsy lunges. I like the staff. But what she really needs is Mockingbird's boomerang batons.
posted by Nelson at 7:36 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's in his egg.

Also: so they needed Boba Fett, ace bounty hunter to tell them Han Solo and Leia Organa had gone next door?
posted by Artw at 7:37 AM on December 22, 2015

One detail I loved in the movie; the badass melee Stormtrooper with the electric weapon.

It was cool but why didn't he shoot at Finn? Why was he carrying something that he could take into a fight with a lightsaber? No one has seen a Jedi since Luke ran off after his trainees were killed. The only other people who might carry them are on his side and there don't seem to be many of them.

I know, I know. Not to think about it.
posted by biffa at 7:45 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

VADER'S HELMET IS A HORCRUX
posted by duffell at 8:02 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

Why was he carrying something that he could take into a fight with a lightsaber?

For one thing, The First Order seems pretty intent on finding Luke, and has no idea if he's off somewhere secret training more Jedi. So, it doesn't seem crazy that they'd have a small number of people embedded in their units with a weapon that can handle a lightsaber. Plus, if the ends are electrified / energized as they seem, it probably does a fair bit of damage as a melee weapon, and may be more useful in in some close quarters fighting scenarios than blaster carbines are.
posted by tocts at 8:06 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

The melee Stormtroopers might be riot control troops. The discussion I linked mentions he had a shield in his other hand that he throws away to fight Finn. It looks a lot like a cop with a club and a riot shield.

That Emo Kylo Ren Twitter is amazingly great. My favorite so far: heritage not hate (featuring a picture of Vader's charred helmet).
posted by Nelson at 8:15 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I had a lot of thoughts about this movie but mostly I think the one that hasn't been mentioned in this thread was how much I love the scene where Finn leaves Maz's bar and for about 2-3 minutes Rey is hallucinating all over the place and the audience has no idea what's going on. That was surreal and pretty amazing. I'm not sure if I'd even say it was pure Star Wars, but it definitely elevated this above typical JJ Abrams holiday blockbuster.

It reminded me pretty quickly of the sequence on Dagobah where Luke has a vision of confronting Vader, killing him, pulling off his mask, and seeing his own face. It was a very different sequence but it had some of the same feel.

I saw this for the first time last night and while I feel like they got a lot of small things wrong, they got a lot of big things right, and overall I liked it a lot. I was especially impressed because they had to work with both characters from the previous movies and at the same time bring in a bunch of new ones, and overall I felt like things meshed pretty well.

I'm not bothered at all by the similarities between this movie and A New Hope, because there were so many ways they switched the details around. The new Luke analog is the one people are trying to rescue on the new Death Star thing (and she's pretty far along the way to rescuing herself). But the one that really hit me was the scene with Han and Ren. The instant Han decided to walk out onto the catwalk was when I had an "oh shit" feeling and realized he might be going to sacrifice himself. Except in A New Hope, it was Obi Wan doing the sacrificing, and even seemed to have a plan: "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". And he is able to return to guide Luke. In TFA, Han doesn't have a plan, he's just trying to deal with this impossible and horrible situation. So that scene felt a hell of a lot more raw than when Darth killed Obi Wan.

I still don't feel like I've gotten a believable explanation of why a character turns to the dark side, though. Ren seems more confused than anything.

The final scene felt kind of symbolic, like Abrams was through Rey presenting the new movie and saying "Here is what I've got, Mr. Luke S., what do you think?"
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:15 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

biffa: "Why was he carrying something that he could take into a fight with a lightsaber?"

I'm with tocts: I think it is just the First Order equivalent of a Billy Club. That it happens to be able to stop a lightsaber is a secondary feature.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:15 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Ren is all about his struggle with the light side. "Must not... Nnn... Look at kittens.... Aggh."
posted by Artw at 8:26 AM on December 22, 2015 [14 favorites]

Jurassic World producers congratulate Star Wars on beating global record

Back in the old days, they used to take out full-page ads in Variety, these days they just fire off a tweet. Cheapskates.
posted by effbot at 8:29 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Early signs something was up with young Ben include taking down all his Max Reebo posters and putting up Korn.
posted by Artw at 8:33 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

I distinctly remember them saying something about hyperspace when they were charging the Starkiller lasers, so the earlier speculation is probably spot on.

Also, little known fact: The Force is passed on through families, but not by genetics. So adopted kids inherit their adopted parent's abilities. That means Luke is Rey's father, but so is Luke's husband, Wedge (the OTP if the OT).
posted by charred husk at 8:39 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I still don't feel like I've gotten a believable explanation of why a character turns to the dark side, though.

It's quicker, easier, more seductive... BUT I don't feel like that's been thought out anywhere in any Star Wars film, because all the dark side guys are involved in basically the same monastic lifestyle of prophecy and mysticism as the Jedi, only eeeeevil. Where are the dark side jerks who use the Force for quick personal gain, the con men and the Killgraves and the thrill seekers? The Dark Side itself might be quicker and easier but the Sith life is a huge hassle.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:44 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

In any event, the Guatemalan-born Oscar Isaac (born Óscar Isaac Hernández Estrada) might be surprised to learn he is the designated white guy.

I know I'm a little late to the game here, and without wanting to derail a very interesting conversation I'd like to remind folks that race has been complicated in Latin America for most of the region's history. ( see this chart)

I don't know Oscar Isaac's background or identity, but it's certainly conceivable he's white and Latin American at the same time.

Now back to Space Fights: Space Magic wakes Up
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 8:44 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

The seductive thing about the dark side is you get to massacre a lot of sand people, because apparently that's hard.
posted by Artw at 8:46 AM on December 22, 2015

badass melee Stormtrooper with the electric weapon.

Eh, Finn should have just done this.
posted by FJT at 8:49 AM on December 22, 2015

Han Solo digging the bobcats we was very fun.
posted by Artw at 8:52 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I keep thinking about this movie and its place in the series and really, for the most part, its flaws are the same old Star Wars flaws all the movies have. It does some things better, some things worse... refreshingly it at least does some things different. But there is no perfect Star Wars movie, not even Empire, which has plenty of its own stuff to criticize. So I feel like, especially for people who are seeing this as kids and forming that pre-critical emotional attachment most of us have with the OT, this one's going to hold up extremely well in the long run.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:58 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

the badass melee Stormtrooper with the electric weapon

I like the new special edition version of that scene.
posted by Phatty Lumpkin at 9:00 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

Bobcats = bowcaster. Jesus, autocorrect, you know nothing.
posted by Artw at 9:00 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

I was wondering if I somehow missed a crucial scene all 3 times I saw the movie...
posted by kmz at 9:01 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Don't feel too sorry for us. We still have the best Star Wars games compared to either generation.

Piffle. The tech is spiffier now but I remember the arcade games as fun, and wikipedia cites this one as being the #4 game of all time. Plus we got arcade culture which was a lot of fun.
posted by phearlez at 9:07 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Han Solo digging the bobcats we was very fun.
---
Bobcats = bowcaster. Jesus, autocorrect, you know nothing.

I dunno, I'm really liking the mental image of Han Solo siccing a team of trained bobcats on Kylo Ren.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:16 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Chewie just pulls little "bobcat eggs" out of those pouches on his bandolier and when he throws them at stuff they hatch/explode into angry full-grown bobcats.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:21 AM on December 22, 2015 [13 favorites]

Loth-cats
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

*Finn fumbles with some grey spheres*

"Careful, those are bobcat eggs."

"Now you tell me?"
posted by Errant at 9:27 AM on December 22, 2015 [12 favorites]

"That's no moon, it's a giant bobcat egg!"
posted by Rock Steady at 9:33 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Hmm, that insta-bread thing that Rey makes was kinda cool... I wonder if there's any more info about it... 'About 200 results for bread from Wookieepedia'... okay that can wait
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:46 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

I show people the gloves page to horrify them.

The actual worst page I hold back to defend the sanity of the world.

(It's breasts)
posted by Artw at 9:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Emo Kylo Ren is so good.
posted by ignignokt at 10:00 AM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Hmm, that insta-bread thing that Rey makes was kinda cool...

Yes, I think it was good they showed that it was actually bread she was bartering for, cause those neatly sealed small packages looked a little like "space drugs". (Which would still be a better name than death sticks.)
posted by FJT at 10:12 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Snoke might be the worst Star Wars villain name, which is an achievement.

And Ello Asty might be the best Star Wars name of them all.
posted by effbot at 10:32 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

And Ello Asty might be the best Star Wars name of them all.

Ah yes, along with his friends Auls Outique and Censedo Ll.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

There is a lot of fantastic deep analysis in this thread, and I love it. But I'm not here to contribute to that right now.

There's one big thing that makes me love a piece of storytelling, be it television, movie, or books: the "of course" factor. I'm sure there's a better name for this, but what I mean is when something happens and I delightedly think, "of course that's how it happens." TFA was full of "of course" moments.

I loved the prop continuity in the Falcon scenes, like Finn tossing aside Luke's lightsaber training drone/ball/droid/thingy, and how the breather masks they used looked like the same ones that were used when they hid the Falcon inside the giant Asteroid Sandworm so many years ago. Of course all that stuff would still be there. Han isn't going to upgrade his safety equipment, and neither he nor Chewbacca is proficient (or interested) at housekeeping. Of course the monster chess board was still set from the time they let the Wookiee win. Of course Rey has to open the same hatch Han was stuck arse-over-teakettle in, trying to fix the ship. That gave such a great sense of physical continuity. The Falcon, stolen and abandoned, was a time capsule full of things from the original movies. Of course it would be.

The prequels were so shiny and clean and un-Star Wars that all the age and grit made me feel like I'd come home to the galaxy far away that I know and love. Rey urbexing a crashed Star Destroyer was brilliant. The instant bread looked pretty cool - I'd try it - but also the kind of Weird Future Food Stuff from a galaxy that gives you blue milk. The sets were cluttered with props and people and confabulations of Muppets, everyone was sweaty and dirty, there was grit and dust: it felt like a used universe. It felt the way Star Wars should.

Kylo Ren both intrigued and annoyed me. Palpatine would've Force-choked the little brat the moment he threw a tantrum and sliced up some useful machinery. Vader would just tilt his head, crook a finger, and slam him to the ground. For all the Sith talk about rage and passion, they also show huge amounts of self-control. They store it up and use it when it serves them. They don't let it control them. Ren hasn't learned this yet. If he does, he'll get scary. Right now, he just needs some sense slapped into him. I did like how his homebrew lightsaber was so subtly wrong: the blade itself made the wrong noises, the thing seemed to sizzle at the ends - he didn't know what he was doing when he made it.

As for Maz Kanata, I have two words: NO CAPES! Tell me someone else thought that.
posted by cmyk at 10:49 AM on December 22, 2015 [31 favorites]

Wookiepedia: Rejected Mon Calamari concept with breasts
posted by Nelson at 10:55 AM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

But there is no perfect Star Wars movie, not even Empire, which has plenty of its own stuff to criticize.

CRAZYTalk!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:19 AM on December 22, 2015

Spent a while figuring out what "the fucking article" you all were referring to was
posted by azarbayejani at 11:20 AM on December 22, 2015 [34 favorites]

Apparently Daniel Craig's uncredited turn was as stormtrooper JB-007, because of course.
posted by Errant at 11:52 AM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]

and I delightedly think, "of course that's how it happens."

Further up in the thread somebody complained about the unlikely coincidence of Han and Chewbacca being anywhere near where they had to be to notice the Falcon taking off. But to me, that was far and a away the best way to get them back into the narrative: if their ship is just sitting empty in a junkyard somewhere, it's obviously been stolen. And obviously they'd be looking for it. Of course.

Had I been writing the script, I'd have come up with something much more convoluted to account for their reappearance. Hell, it would've depended on first coming up for an explanation for their absence first. Having them come back in the way they did is an admirably blunt plot mechanism. So blunt it verges on clever.
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:03 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Can we call this cmyk's law of storytelling?
posted by cmyk at 12:07 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Apparently Daniel Craig's uncredited turn was as stormtrooper JB-007, because of course.

He delivers a wonderfully dry line reading (one of the times my theater burst into laughter) and I remember thinking "what a great job by whatever bit actor that was".
posted by selfnoise at 12:40 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

*shrugs* Pretty obvious to me who Snoke is. You kill a guy's beloved pet rancor, it's only natural his grief will twist into a fury and madness that will consume him in a bloody quest for revenge.

Cracked it.

Nah, bro. You want your mind blown?

Snoke is one letter off from "Snake."

Rey is one letter off from "Ray".

Lando's first line in Episode VIII: "Kept you waiting, huh?"
posted by selfnoise at 12:42 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Snoke is one letter off from "Snake."

Rey is one letter off from "Ray".

Lando's first line in Episode VIII: "Kept you waiting, huh?"

I don't understand that joke at all... please help me selfnoise...
posted by kittensofthenight at 12:48 PM on December 22, 2015

Please Stop Spreading This Nonsense that Rey From Star Wars Is a “Mary Sue” by Charlie Jane Anders at io9
posted by larrybob at 12:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Snoke is one letter off from "Snake."

Rey is one letter off from "Ray".

Lando's first line in Episode VIII: "Kept you waiting, huh?"

I don't understand that joke at all... please help me selfnoise...

Lets just say that midichlorians are a lot like nanomachines, son.
posted by selfnoise at 1:10 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I also do not understand what "snake ray" has to do with Lando Calrissian. Unless it's a weird "snakes on a plane" joke?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:14 PM on December 22, 2015

It's a play on a line from a Metal Gear trailer, featuring a character named Snake, and a giant robot named RAY.
posted by codacorolla at 1:16 PM on December 22, 2015

Metal Gear? Right?

This thread is amazing by the way, took me all of yesterday to read it. Totally agree that Rey is fucking awesome and I hope she is unrelated to Luke.
posted by kittensofthenight at 1:17 PM on December 22, 2015

Please Stop Spreading This Nonsense that Rey From Star Wars Is a “Mary Sue” by Charlie Jane Anders at io9

Man, I found Rey incredibly refreshing just BECAUSE she seemed to be take-charge and competant right from the get-go. I can't believe people spent decades complaining about "whiny" Luke and you're going to tell me this character isn't whiny enough?

Also, I like how they took the "whiny" audience surrogate Luke and replaced him with the "excitable" audience surrogate Finn. I love Finn's "holy shiiiiit" reaction to everything.

It's a play on a line from a Metal Gear trailer, featuring a character named Snake, and a giant robot named RAY.

Please don't explain my "jokes", people will realize they're not funny.
posted by selfnoise at 1:20 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I've been really in to Mark Hamill's recent work on the Flash and re-watching some old Batman cartoons. He is a really great actor when he is allowed to go big. I was disappointed that I'll have to wait 1.5 years to see how Luke has grown and changed with age but if that beard is any indication it will be great.
posted by kittensofthenight at 1:20 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Finn's dialogue brought an energy to movie that really engaged me. I was worried during the Poe and Finn scene that it would be to anachronistic, but it clicked once they stole the Tie Fighter. The only thing that didn't work for me was the rushed Star Killer explanation and assault, although I appreciated that the movie wasn't Hobbit length.
posted by kittensofthenight at 1:22 PM on December 22, 2015

> Rey is fucking awesome and I hope she is unrelated to Luke.

Agreed on both counts, but I suspect that she will in fact turn out to be his daughter. Star Wars is aimed at kids - never bet against the obvious.

(It would be really cool if they actively worked to subvert the whole concept of "royal blood" - she really is no one, and the Force chooses people for mysterious reasons. But I think we're more likely to see Rey turn to the Dark Side than to find out that she is *not* Luke's daughter.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:25 PM on December 22, 2015

Talking this over with my kids, I realized that I think Rey and Finn are half-siblings, fathered by Han Solo, only because of the doubling of dialogue with Rey/Han and Rey/Finn. Why the simultaneous phrases, if not for sharing some special bond? And not once, but twice? (Idle thought; not to be construed as anything more.)
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:25 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

BTW: I'm not sure if this has come up in the thread yet, but if you go back and watch the second Teaser trailer, it begins with a Luke voiceover (clearly old Luke, who doesn't actually speak in the movie) about his family. I guess he's either talking to Ben/Kylo or Rey in that VO?

I really, really hope Rey isn't his daughter. That seems like the least interesting possible twist.

Finn's dialogue brought an energy to movie that really engaged me. I was worried during the Poe and Finn scene that it would be to anachronistic, but it clicked once they stole the Tie Fighter. The only thing that didn't work for me was the rushed Star Killer explanation and assault, although I appreciated that the movie wasn't Hobbit length.

Back when people were doing the prequels rewatch here on Fanfare I pointed out that nobody ever really moves quickly in the prequels, even in an emergency. This film definitely didn't have that problem!
posted by selfnoise at 1:27 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

if you go back and watch the second Teaser trailer, it begins with a Luke voiceover (clearly old Luke, who doesn't actually speak in the movie) about his family. I guess he's either talking to Ben/Kylo or Rey in that VO?

I think the line you're thinking of is "The force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My sister has it. You have that power too."

The audio is taken straight from ROTJ, when Luke is telling Leia that they're siblings in the Ewok village or whatever. Although the original line is in a different order: "You have that power too. The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My... sister... has it. [MEANINGFUL LOOK]" At least, that's how I remember it.
posted by whitecedar at 1:32 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

That scene with her eating in the shadow of an AT-AT and wearing that Rebellion helmet is one of my very favorite in the entire movie.
posted by kmz at 1:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [27 favorites]

This thread has completely cratered by billable hours in the last couple days. Notwithstanding the foregoing, I want to thank you all for the lovely conversation. Totally worth it.
posted by LegallyBread at 1:46 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

she really is no one, and the Force chooses people for mysterious reasons.

This is what I'm hoping, and I'm pegging a bit of that hope on the sub-title of the movie. Rather than make this a dynastic narrative, I'd like to see them work with an over-arching plot something like this: in the wake of (1) Anakin Skywalker slaughtering an entire batch of young Jedi, and (2) Ren offing most of the students of Luke's academy, all within the space of a couple generations, the Force needs new avenues for manifestation. It has therefore begun to channel itself through a seemingly random population of new people and creatures. Because of the disruption to the normal progression of things, the new manifestation is both more powerful and more unstable. People are spontaneously reproducing feats that used to take years of training to achieve, and they don't even know what they're doing or how it's happening. Rey is way out on the far end of the bell curve in this regard, but she's not alone by any stretch of the imagination.

That can be the crisis that draws Luke out of seclusion. Rey can become his emissary, with Finn, Chewbacca and the droids her support team, in a quest through the galaxy attempting to outrace the First Order in recruiting these new Force-sensitives. Finn is actually Force-sensitive himself, now that I think of it. As a bonus, this whole setup can create conflicts of method with Leia and the military forces of the resistance, since they'd be functioning as a convert operation in the midst of an active war, giving us a reason for Luke and Leia to butt heads.

I don't want it to turn into X-Men in space, necessarily. But make it "Avatar: the Last Airbender" in space, and I'm all in.
posted by Ipsifendus at 2:02 PM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]

Maybe midichlorians are sensitive to Force-droughts, and multiply at greater rates when the galaxy is running low on Force-sensitives.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

People are spontaneously reproducing feats that used to take years of training to achieve, and they don't even know what they're doing or how it's happening.

I am only half-kidding when I say you should call up Rian Johnson right now because FUCK YES TO THIS
posted by invitapriore at 2:18 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

> Maybe midichlorians are sensitive to Force-droughts, and multiply at greater rates when the galaxy is running low on Force-sensitives.

Out! OUT!!
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:26 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

I'm still not sure why having some sort of observable biofeedback mechanism aspect to the Force is so much more objectionable than the Force being Interventionist Space God.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Well, more or less objectionable depends on where one wants to set the ratio of fantasy to science fiction in these movies. I suspect midichlorians as a concept are irrepairably damaged by having been introduced in the prequels more than by anything else. But if someone is looking for the Force to work more like the idea of Ki from kung fu movies, where you can cultivate it through the practice of a particular discipline, having a physical explanation sort of rankles.
posted by Ipsifendus at 2:41 PM on December 22, 2015

I think the line you're thinking of is "The force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My sister has it. You have that power too."

One of several things that never made it from the trailers/teasers into the movie (such as Kylo igniting the lightsaber from behind). Abrams came out and said the first part of this was lifted straight out of Jedi, but they then tacked on the ending with Hamill recording it recently. If anything, this really drove my thought that Rey was somehow a Skywalker, and may also be an early indication that they were originally going to make that reveal in this movie, but then opted not to do so.

I would definitely prefer and love it if Rey really was a nobody whom the Force selected to be its next great champion, so to speak, but a theme that has been reiterated by everyone of the higher ups on the production side is that these trilogies are the stories of the Skywalker family. While it's entirely possible Kylo Ren would meet that bill, I don't think that will be the case. There will be other Skywalker children and I believe Rey will be one of, or simply the other one.
posted by Atreides at 2:42 PM on December 22, 2015

My martial arts woo knowledge is a little rusty these days but I don't think qi energy is conceptualized as purely spiritual, is it? What is something you can "cultivate through practice" if not something with a material, physical, biological component?

I suspect midichlorians as a concept are irrepairably damaged by having been introduced in the prequels more than by anything else.

Well this is kind of the thing that bugs me; people didn't like the prequels, and that's fine, but there's a lot of babies in that bathwater.

I just hope the new movies don't make shitting on the prequels part of their fanservice. There's a lot to make use of, expand on, and redeem in those movies.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:47 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'd just like to throw out there, to whoever is listening amongst the movie production gods, that Rey + Furiosa is a totally legitimate and workable and potentially amazing tag team duo for a movie.

Just sayin'.
posted by tocts at 2:51 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Kyle Ren would totes be into Dark Enlightenment.

Hey, title idea!
posted by Artw at 2:51 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I just hope the new movies don't make shitting on the prequels part of their fanservice. There's a lot to make use of, expand on, and redeem in those movies.

This is definitely a very fascinating thing to watch unfold. As someone pointed out above, Abrams and Kasdan have stated that R2 had the map information (which contains the location of the Jedi temples) from the Death Star. He got it when he was plugged in during ANH. Another person then rightfully pointed out, "What, he didn't get it when he was working in the Jedi Temple with Anakin?"

But that might highlight what happens as we go forward. If there's a reasonable excuse to ignore the Prequel Trilogy, they might simply do that. Rebels is really the only Disney Star Wars material that references the events of the Prequel Trilogy, and it does so almost entirely referencing mainly the events from Clone Wars.

I suspect that the Prequels will ultimately become the step children of the Star Wars universe, avoided when possible, and reluctantly engaged in only the most beneficial light. This may or may not hold up depending on future one off films they might do (PLEASE GIVE ME A KENOBI STAND ALONE FILM, PLZ!).
posted by Atreides at 2:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Kyle Ren would totes be into Dark Enlightenment.

The first time I heard the name Mencius Moldbug I assumed it was, in fact, a new creature from the Star Wars galaxy.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:56 PM on December 22, 2015 [12 favorites]

I finally saw this yesterday, and quite enjoyed it. Here are my inane observations.

- Rey, as in ray of light, ray of hope, etc.
- Finn rejects the inhumane slaughtering of villagers. Hence, "Finn the Human"
- Ren is another word for kidney, which Kylo seems to get shot in during the climax.
- Snoke....uh...I got nothing. Maybe he's good at snooker
posted by mrjohnmuller at 3:05 PM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

I'm conflicted about the mary-sue thing. On the one hand I don't agree, but on the other, it was responding partly to some things that bugged me too. I think it's pointing in the direction of a legitimate problem, but it's not a problem with Rey or with the character or the character writing, it's a problem with more of the minor plot points being more hand-wavy than in the original trilogy, and Rey is at the center because she is the center of the movie. (And it may be the case that they're not hand-wavy but that I just haven't seen the movie enough times to connect all the dots)

Watching the film, a lot of things that Rey does raised eyebrows because we didn't find out until later that she was strong in the force. (Farmboy-Luke wasn't a good pilot because he put in all the training hours and had all the best teachers, he was good because of the Force). Whereas seeing Rey shoot a speeding tie fighter out of the air with a shot from a careening moving platform by aiming the bottom of a spaceship she doesn't know how to fly, to move the barrel of a fixed-turret she couldn't see and had no sights for, with ridiculous precision, that's just stupid without the Force. That's not how any of that works. I didn't trust the filmmaker enough to say "Clue! That was a clue! She's a force-user and doesn't know it!", because normally that kind of scene means "Idiot! That was an idiot scriptwriter attempting spectacle! I'm trying hard to suspend my disbelief for you people, could you please at least try to meet me half-way?!"

She kicks ass with a quarterstaff, so she's well ahead when it comes to handling close-combat weapons like a lightsabre; even if she's never used one before she's still put in the hours - a lot of the fundamentals are already in place. I think criticism of her lightsabre skills being too good are misplaced.

Some things (like being better at fixing the Falcon than Han) still ring wrong, so I grasp at my own explanations (it's been many years since Han last tinkered with it, and maybe Rey has done work on it for the previous owner, we don't know, therefore it's plausible.)

So while most of the things make sense in the end, my memories are of the feelings of things not making sense in the moment. I think on my second viewing, this will evaporate. Also because:

I think one of the things I really loved about her is that even though she's good at a lot, she seems really jazzed and proud of herself when she does it

I think having resolved most of the things that were bugging me in the moment, I'm going to enjoy this movie even more when I see it again :)
posted by anonymisc at 3:12 PM on December 22, 2015

Thinking a bit more on the Knights of Ren:

I'm happy to see the writers allowing for a more numerous group of evil (presumably) force-enabled antagonists. The "rule of 2" from the prequels is totally stupid, both logically (how the hell are the Sith staying around if it's just an unbroken chain of 1 Master and 1 Apprentice till the Apprentice kills the Master and repeats?) and storytelling wise (how boring is it that there can't be a bigger threat?). It's so stupid that the expanded universe and RPGs have been coming up with ways around it since basically day 1 (e.g. there's a whole lot of ink spilled explaining that the Sith aren't the only evil users of the force, also that Sith used to be a race but is now a calling of some sort, etc).

Seriously, screw that. Bring on the knightly order of bad dudes with lightsabers. Give us some way to build up stakes that doesn't require blowing up more planets. I don't care if that means they get marked down on the ledger as something other than Sith, just give us the opportunity for some stories that aren't just 1 Big Bad and 1 Apprentice.
posted by tocts at 3:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

I know it's way too early to speculate but I just feel so invested in the new characters now and I really really really hope the next episodes do right by them. Like, I think I trust Rian Johnson but Colin Trevorrow? Eyuch.

Just... Please don't fuck it up guys.
posted by kmz at 3:16 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Although I can't believe I'm saying this, there was a better sens of galactic scale in the prequels. How populous the galaxy was as seen by the huge senate chamber, each representing a star system. Some small touches like the hyper-drive attachment on Obi-Wans ship, indicating the distance of travel was more than a small fighter could accomplish. The different settings seem to be pretty distant and communication takes effort.

I'll concede that, but i also feel that one of the worst things about the sequels was how they handled scale.

Over the past few days i've talked to a ton of people about this movie. My dad, old friends, new friends, random internet acquaintances. Every single person had something to say about the new movie not being visually overwhelming or being really clunky with trying to show Huge Scale.

Some of the best parts of the prequels were yea, that scale... the few moments in which it was done well. A lot of the BAD stuff was them fucking up that scale.

The Coruscant chase is visually muddy and confusing. Basically every space battle that has more than a couple ships is. Every ground battle is, unless it's a very small fight usually with lightsabers(and some sequences inside the palace).

Even the depth charge sequence with the jedi fighters is all "look at this RIDICULOUS weapon with it's HUGE explosions that are like, the only sound!".

So yea, there were moments when the sense of scale was well done or clever. But the fact that the scale refused to shift gears from "omg epic" at nearly any moment in the prequels really harms them.

Even the coruscant looking city in TFA feels like it has more of a sense of scale. It's not infinitely tall buildings that go right to the core of the planet and are thousands of floors high. It looks like the city from blade runner, but star wars'd.

I don't even think we've gotten a chance to see the scale of the galaxy in this new take on the universe yet, because i don't think there's been a context where it would be super meaningful. ANH wasn't all scale scale scale either. The closest we got was the map. But i, for one, am happy they're not beating us over the head with EPIC EPIC MUST BE EPIC.

The closest TFA got to that was the starkiller blowing up planets you could see and that was one of the weakest things in the movie.

I think we will see a city, or a big fleet, or a better shot of a whole system, or something like the senate. But shit, i like the scale of things in this new take. When they show them addressing the first order army it's what, a couple squadrons of tie fighters, a few walkers, maybe a couple thousand troops. It isn't a billion clone troopers or any of that stuff they showed in the prequels. It's like, a couple marine expeditionary units but in the star wars universe. I LOVED that.

I think the most meaningful thing they've done for scale is show that there aren't a lot of people left fighting this on either side, and that this is just a small corner of the universe. We don't need to know there's 1000 kinds of aliens. And small touches like the operatives in the bar contacting the resistance/first order did make the universe feel big without being too heavy handed.
posted by emptythought at 3:18 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

Clone Wars et al seemed to solve this problem by making sure every Sith Lord had a shitload of not-officially-Sith underlings running around with face tattoos and lightsabers, but it'd be fun to find out that in addition to the Sidious/Vader Sith tradition, there were also the True and Loyal Church of the Sith, the Originalist Dark Lords of Authentic Sithhood, the First Orthodox Order of Sith Knights, etc etc etc and basically the galaxy is just pockmarked with Sith pairs following the rule-of-two and not recognizing the legitimacy of any of the other Sith sects.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:22 PM on December 22, 2015 [27 favorites]

I had some windshield time today (after having seen the film twice now) and I have my new pet theory on who Rey is, how she is a Skywalker, and how it is going to lead to an amazing Episode VIII surprise reveal that is also an amazing callback to ESB.

The first observation is that we don't know exactly how long it has been since the Emperor fell and Death Star II was destroyed. We can guess a bit, but it may be 30 years, it may be 35, perhaps even 40?

Likewise, we don't know the ages of the characters. But, Rey in particular I believe is young, especially the scenes on Jakku. My friend's wife thought she was supposed to be about 16. I think a bit older, but barely an adult.

Luke and Leia seem to know who she likely is (and by extension I'll assume Chewie). No one else does. But Kylo Ren, or Ben, appears to start having a suspicion.

And that is because this is what happened:
Shortly after the Emperor fell, Han and Leia married. They soon have a son amid the chaos and as he got older it became evident that he was strong in the force. So, they began to have Luke train him.

Luke, seeking to rebuild the Jedi order, and perhaps with council from Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin begins rounding up force sensitive children. With Kylo being the oldest and apparently most powerful.

But, Kylo is short tempered, he has his grandfather's anger in him. As he becomes a teenager he begins to rebel.

He also has his father's charm. By the time he is fifteen or sixteen he has begun to sneak away, to a relationship with another young woman.

Han, Leia and Luke find out. They disapprove and send Kylo away (Away from Luke? I'm not sure on this point, perhaps he gives him a quest of some sort).

But, it turns out his sweetheart already has a child coming, and another man in her life who is a more suitable protector. The protector is needed because Kylo breaks while away, and comes back to exact vengeance on his parents and Luke by killing the young Jedi. He can never confirm whether the child is born, but begins pursuing his former sweetheart across the galaxy, always one step behind her, and ahead of his father.

One day, nearly caught, they are forced to abandon young Rey, promising they will return. Han never knows where she was left, and in his uncontrolled anger Kylo kills his former lover and her new husband without learning of his daughter.

Now, Han and Leia have figured it out. Perhaps telling Rey as well. Luke isn't her father, or her uncle. He is her great uncle. She must train with Luke and prepare for the day that she faces Kylo Ren again. Rey must reveal to him, in a bid to bring him to her side, "Ben, you are my father."
posted by meinvt at 3:27 PM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]

I agree empythought. The inital shot after the crawl of the First Order capitol ship was so much more awe-inspiring than the opening of RotS, specifically because of the lack of spectacle let the scale of the ships sink in. I was pretty much only referring to the sense of how big the Republic was and the outer reaches being difficult to reach and communicate with, not the scale of the battles or most of the settings, which was pleasingly readable and human scale in TFA. The ground battles seemed like a lot of effort was spent choreographing shots and making each soldier important. But the sense of the distances involved in space travel, the distances involved in..hyperdrive sun cannons, communication between the Resistance recon team and the base, where the hell the planets were located, etc seemed a lot smaller to me because there weren't enough establishing shots or sense of travel. Does that make sense?
posted by kittensofthenight at 3:27 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Two there are, plus exceptions.
posted by Artw at 3:27 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

it'd be fun to find out that in addition to the Sidious/Vader Sith tradition, there were also the True and Loyal Church of the Sith, the Originalist Dark Lords of Authentic Sithhood, the First Orthodox Order of Sith Knights, etc etc etc and basically the galaxy is just pockmarked with Sith pairs following the rule-of-two and not recognizing the legitimacy of any of the other Sith sects.

I must have seen it quoted elsewhere, since I thought it was in this thread, but the official Star Wars database entry on Lor San Tekka mentions something relevant and amusingly early Star Wars sounding:

Following decades of adventure, San Tekka retired to live simply on Jakku, where he follows the dictates of the once-forbidden Church of the Force.

posted by Gnatcho at 3:28 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Those tiny little human moments went a long way toward me loving her character, and thinking of her more as an actual person than as some kind of author-stand-in-for-coolness.

The moment for me was when she finishes dinner, licks the plate (cause only a quarter-portion, can't waste), puts it aside, dusts off and dons the helmet, and looks out wistfully over the sand. Right there we know: she wants to be a pilot, she wants to be part of something, it's not fear keeping her here but something else, and no matter how tough and badass she is, she's also a child with dreams she allows herself to have in a quiet solitary moment. Just amazing.

Similarly amazing without words is Mark Hamill at the end. His whole look is great, but then the emotions that run through his eyes and over his weary face, as he sees that lightsaber and what it means, what must have happened to bring this woman here, that it's time to come back whether or not he's ready...he just does an outstanding job in a few seconds. Weirdly, the thing I noticed the most the second time around was his hair and beard, which is styled so much like prequel Obi-Wan. I feel like the Force makes everyone look the same in the end.

Like when she fixes the Falcon in the co-pilot seat (she takes off the compressor, I think? I forget what the actual macguffin part is), and is, like, beaming at Han Solo about how smart the thing she just did was; it's less cool capable always-on badass, and more charmingly-excited nerd who's thrilled to show off the things she knows.

And really well counterbalanced by seen-this-shit Han Solo.

"What did you do?"

*beams* "I bypassed the compressor!"

*side-eye* "...huh."

Now that I think about it, a lot of the way that Han Solo deals with Rey is a lot of the way Harrison Ford seems to deal with the enthusiastic fanbase, with a little embarrassment and a little disdain. He's clearly charmed by her against his instincts, and I think if we'd had a couple more scenes with him being won over, I'd feel less like his story is dominated by the metaknowledge of how over it the actor is.
posted by Errant at 4:06 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Han is dead, right? (Spoiler alert?)
posted by popcassady at 4:07 PM on December 22, 2015

I don't think we're going to really know until Ep VIII. He could be returning because somehow he fell through a reactor core with a lightsaber hole in his chest and survived the planet exploding ... or maybe they just need him for some flashback footage.
posted by tocts at 4:10 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Need to rewatch to see if he Vulcan-mind-melded with Chewie.
posted by popcassady at 4:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

Hokey Relgion Ghost.
posted by Artw at 4:20 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

(cause only a quarter-portion, can't waste)
That's what I was thinking, too, so it felt really wrong to me when she spilled some of the powder as she was dumping it in the bowl.
posted by clorox at 4:21 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

- Snoke....uh...I got nothing. Maybe he's good at snooker

He's cocking a snook at the New Republic.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:21 PM on December 22, 2015

Could be some force ghost bullshit?

Interesting order on that cast list.
posted by biffa at 4:26 PM on December 22, 2015

I squirmed a little at how Rey is instantly better than Han at fixing up the Falcon, not because it's implausible or Mary Sue-ish (fresh eyes are a thing, and Rey knows her shit) but because it seemed like it's part of a thing Abrams was doing at that point in the movie, where he's like putting old Star Wars to bed. See also Finn going on and on about the gunner's chair. Audience, this old original-trilogy stuff you love is, no joke, kind of a ruined and broken piece of shit, and could easily be better.

I noticed one wipe transition early on in the film. Were there others? I hope someone with a better eye makes a video of like a stylistic progression. Though I hope it also skewers the shit out of Abrams because oooh how I hate him. *shakey fist*

So yeah my current theory is that the first bit of the movie is Abrams doing homage, but he is also trying to wean the audience away from classic SW towards AbramsSW. Older isn't better... Hope has failed... Relinquish to the New... There's a decent theme in there, but its not really pursued in some large sense. Its just there to get buy-in to AbramsSW. The rest of it is lost in callbacks and switcheroos, some lines by characters 4 u 2 consider.

Though it's probably no accident that the baddie is the most focused of all on the old movies. Hell he keeps a prop in his bedroom. He wants things to be the way they were and hates traitors. He probably wigged out in Jedi school because Luke tried to tell him the EU wasn't canon anymore. His opposite, Rey, is steeped in the old things as well, but is also bright, blank, forward looking.

Anyway, if I'm right at all, I think the joke's on him because the Star Wars homage part is good watchin', while, for example, the episode in Maz's Castle/bar is TV product; one that would look clunky and low-effort on Stargate SG1.
posted by nom de poop at 4:27 PM on December 22, 2015

Though it's probably no accident that the baddie is the most focused of all on the old movies. Hell he keeps a prop in his bedroom. He wants things to be the way they were and hates traitors. He probably wigged out in Jedi school because Luke tried to tell him the EU wasn't canon anymore.

This Emo Kylo Ren twitter account is giving me lols today.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

Rens Rights Activist.

Everything.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:43 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]

"what if men and women just have naturally different levels of force ability"
posted by Errant at 4:45 PM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

Perhaps Rey has already had some force training but, because of trauma, cannot remember undergoing it.

Also, another thought: Luke brought the lightsaber to Maz's bar. He recovered it from Bespin and left it at Maz's as a sort of sword in the stone.
posted by popcassady at 4:57 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

meinvt: Ben, you are my father.

I don't know if the age differences can be made to work out, but this is a seriously awesome theory.

(It bugs me that this faraway galaxy isn't bound by Relativity, because that would make random ages easy to handle. But I guess that seriously screws with simultaneity.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 5:22 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think one of the things I really loved about her is that even though she's good at a lot, she seems really jazzed and proud of herself when she does it

Ha. Daisy Ridley's middle name is Jazz. Well okay, one of her middle names.
posted by megafauna at 5:46 PM on December 22, 2015

I squirmed a little at how Rey is instantly better than Han at fixing up the Falcon

I'm as big of a Han Solo fan as anybody, but Han is notoriously lousy at fixing the Falcon. It's held together by spit, baling wire, and duct tape. If he'd been any good at fixing the Falcon, it would have stayed fixed occasionally.
posted by immlass at 5:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [25 favorites]

Originalist Dark Lords of Authentic Sithhood

Please tell me there's a Sithhood of the (Hyperspace) Traveling Lightsaber.
posted by tocts at 5:56 PM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

And yeah, let's be clear here: like 80% of the Han/Leia/Chewie plot in ESB revolves around Han and Chewie failing to fix the Falcon's hyperdrive, repeatedly.
posted by tocts at 5:57 PM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]

And yeah, let's be clear here: like 80% of the Han/Leia/Chewie plot in ESB revolves around Han and Chewie failing to fix the Falcon's hyperdrive, repeatedly.

And Lando's cloud minions also.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:06 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

half the fixing-the-Falcon scenes were always them shouting angrily at each other like two dads over a rickety lawnmower when it's still too early on Saturday morning to justify cracking open a cold one

oh, so never o'clock, got it
posted by Errant at 6:44 PM on December 22, 2015

Han Solo is alive. Evidence as follows:
1-No body
2-He is still breathing when he is thrown from the catwalk.
3- Leia shudders, but keep in mind that her son has made decision to go all evil.
4-He's Han Solo.
5-You probably thought Poe was dead too.
posted by humanfont at 6:57 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Did he survive by falling into a very sturdy refrigerator?
posted by knuckle tattoos at 7:12 PM on December 22, 2015 [46 favorites]

My only complaint. Anakin's grandson is going to the darkside and talking to his Vader Helmet. Where was Anakin's force ghost?
posted by humanfont at 7:22 PM on December 22, 2015

He fell into the trash compactor that Phasma was in, and in her huge annoyance at the stupidity on display, she took him along as she busted right out of there and is now keeping him in a bacta tank like the world's grumpiest goldfish while she plots destruction.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:23 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

I'm as big of a Han Solo fan as anybody, but Han is notoriously lousy at fixing the Falcon. It's held together by spit, baling wire, and duct tape. If he'd been any good at fixing the Falcon, it would have stayed fixed occasionally.

Han is an intuitive pilot and engineer. Not a lot of schooling, but smart as hell and can *make* his hacks on the Falcon work, mostly. Plus there's the problem that Falcon has three droid brains that run it and they tend to squabble.

Considering how much of the Falcon's local history and modifications that Rey was aware, she's probably done some of the work on it, may have even flown in it or piloted the ship before.

Where was Anakin's force ghost?

Abrahams was only ripping off Star Wars, not Return of the Jedi.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:24 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

My only complaint. Anakin's grandson is going to the darkside and talking to his Vader Helmet. Where was Anakin's force ghost?

Ben probably doesn't know who it is because the actor keeps changing.
posted by Artw at 7:24 PM on December 22, 2015 [23 favorites]

Why was he carrying something that he could take into a fight with a lightsaber?

I realized on the second viewing that this scene exists to explain why Finn can hold his own against (a wounded) Kylo Ren despite not being Force Sensitive (assuming they stick to that) -- TFA-era Stormtroopers are trained in anti-lightsaber tactics.

As a bonus it will make future RPGs easier to justify mooks that can resist ligthsabers.
posted by gerryblog at 7:24 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

Nobody thought Poe was dead.
posted by Artw at 7:28 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

The sinking exploding ship was trying really loud to shout, "No, seriously folks, he's dead!"
posted by Drinky Die at 7:30 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I like to think Han was saved by Luke's cut off hand and they're off having adventures.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

C'mon, we've all played this "watching a movie" game before.

Also he's pretty clearly on the poster.
posted by Artw at 7:33 PM on December 22, 2015

I just saw a Star Wars movie in a theater THAT I DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY REGRET SEEING!!!!
posted by Golem XIV at 8:10 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

1-No body

When Han was thrown into the shaft, I momentarily saw the reams and reams of fan fiction that will be written to keep him alive. The same way every single EU story involved Boba Fett escaping the Sarlacc, every single post-VII story will involve Boba Fett flying into an exploding Starkiller to save Han.
posted by Gary at 8:20 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Speaking of picture painting, Isaac explained how the character backstory he created for Poe before the film found itself in the Marvel Comic, Star Wars: Shattered Empire.

“This is one of the very cool things about working with Lucasfilm and J.J. [Abrams] is we’re creating this stuff together,” Isaac said. “And they’re open to that and they’re excited by that. So [the backstory] was a collaboration. That was me realizing that Yavin, the Rebel base at the end of A New Hope, was shot in Guatemala. I was born in Guatemala. This takes place 30 years later. Which is close to my age. And so I thought ‘Why couldn’t Poe be from Yavin? He could be from there, that rebel base.’ And I said that in some interviews. Lucasfilm heard that, it got back to the creators of Shattered Empire and they thought ‘That’s a cool idea.’ This is the first time where me talking about my character background I usually do as an actor, I get a comic book out of it. It’s pretty wild. They’re doing a beautiful job. I think it’s great. The story itself I had nothing to do with just the seed of that’s where Poe in born.”

-- io9
posted by bettafish at 8:39 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

Don't forget, Rey mentions the junk guy had her work on the Falcon, installing the compressor. She knew exactly where to go and what to do from that experience. She didn't necessarily out fix Han.
posted by Atreides at 8:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

The sucessful navigation of an asteroid field was also thought to be impossible. Yet Han survived that.
posted by humanfont at 8:44 PM on December 22, 2015

I never wanted Death Star 3.0 and I really don't want to see version 4, but I am so looking forward to the inevitable Hoth Assault 2: AT-AT Boogaloo. Big lumbering death machines and BOMBASTIC IMPERIAL MIGHT are always better than running around in corridors and impersonal planet-kersplodey effects.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:47 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

If you're like me and might not read the novel and wants to know some facts the movie didn't get to, you should read this list.
posted by numaner at 8:48 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Who actually knows that Vader died?

SLIGHT SPOILERS FROM THE NOVEL: Both Snoke and Kylo knows that Vader sacrificed himself to save Luke; Snoke called him a fool and Kylo said he just had a "sentimental" moment.
posted by numaner at 8:51 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Setting fire to Anakin was a bit of a mean trick if he wasn't dead.
posted by Artw at 9:00 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

why did i already think about this so much?
posted by emptythought

eponysterical
posted by numaner at 9:09 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I guess he's had worse...
posted by Artw at 9:14 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

If you're like me and might not read the novel and wants to know some facts the movie didn't get to, you should read this list.

Well, there goes my half-baked theory that Rey was tapping in to the more-accessible dark side when she started using her Force powers.

Also, C-3PO at the head of a robotic spy network? Really?
posted by clorox at 9:21 PM on December 22, 2015

1. No body

The star wars movies are built on repeating motifs (e.g. "I got a bad feeling about this"). One of the repeating motifs is death by giant pit. The Emperor. Death Maul. Boba Fett. There is also no body for Obi wan, Yoda, etc.

Luke survived a giant pit but the audience was quickly shown that. I think a pit fall is the traditional Star Wars way to kill a character dead-for-reals.
posted by anonymisc at 9:31 PM on December 22, 2015

On the list of things that happened to Han—lightsaber through the chest; left for dead in a facility that was soon blown up, on a planet that was also blown up; exuberant disinterest on the part of H. Ford to continue playing the role—the pit fall is really the least of his worries.
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:43 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I won't believe Han is dead till I see an official First Order death certificate.

</truther>
posted by mazola at 9:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Darth Maul turned out not to be dead for real.

/wonders about the emperor. >
posted by Artw at 9:51 PM on December 22, 2015

Snoke is secretly Han whose fall in the pit made him Force-sensitive and is holograming from the future. The Force Awakens is about his Force.
posted by numaner at 9:52 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

make it "Avatar: the Last Airbender" in space, and I'm all in

I so so so so so want this to happen
posted by numaner at 9:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

dad the wookiee used all my garnier fructis
posted by numaner at 10:17 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

I'm silently dying over here so I won't wake up the roommate, I actually know someone who would totally act like Emo Kylo Ren if put in the exact same situation.

dear diary hux and i are wearing black to commemorate the defeat at the battle of endor we both always wear black but today it means more

grandpa does my hair look okay

i get all my winter clothes at Hoth Topic

*force-slams his bedroom door*

what about the civilian contractors who lost their lives on the second death star

#notallsith

*corners you at a party to explain the Force to you even though you literally wrote the book on it and all he read was the review*
posted by numaner at 10:28 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

okay I finally saw it and

a girl

with a lightsaber

my fourteen year old self is so, so vindicated.

I may or may not have coherent thoughts later but you guys. I built my own lightsaber with a lathe and a lucite rod and an LED when I was fourteen years old and I just saw a GIRL with a LIGHTSABER on the big screen tonight in a film that was really actually for real Star Wars and I am so, so, so happy.

It wasn't perfect but for that I can forgive every other thing.
posted by dogheart at 10:47 PM on December 22, 2015 [50 favorites]

I'm 47 years old. I lived Star Wars the first time around and that will never be recreated (not for me anyway).

My kids loved this movie and that brings me joy. So mission accomplished.
posted by mazola at 11:01 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens is a movie we can't evaluate until we see Episode VIII
posted by homunculus at 12:27 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

I've only seen it once: But was Han's "Hoth" coat blue or brown inTFA?

I ask because at times it seemed its right and proper blue, and yet there were a couple of scenes where it was brownish, and another cut where it seemed to shift colours, and I wondered if they were trolling.

And, was it his Hoth gear at all?
posted by Mezentian at 1:33 AM on December 23, 2015

@gingerhazing: Rey and Finn are like FRIENDSHIP??? I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS BUT I LIKE IT and Poe is like shit yes you guys are gonna LOVE friendship
posted by Artw at 1:57 AM on December 23, 2015 [21 favorites]

"It's much, much too early to tell if you had any fun or not. Maybe you won't like the next movie, and then won't you feel stupid for saying that you enjoyed this one when it's retrospectively artcrime?"
posted by Errant at 2:23 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

So you know how I said that it was highly unlikely that there'd be a lot of Poe/Finn because no one pays attention to adorable guys of colour?

Thank you, Internet, for proving me wrong.
posted by Katemonkey at 2:24 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

I've only seen it once: But was Han's "Hoth" coat blue or brown inTFA?

It was white and gold.

#so2015
posted by crossoverman at 3:00 AM on December 23, 2015 [19 favorites]

you guys are gonna LOVE friendship

It is Magic.
posted by Mezentian at 3:41 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

It was white and gold.
#so2015

Original 1980s controversy is BEST.
posted by Mezentian at 3:42 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Thank you, Internet, for proving me wrong.

I just figured it was a given, and I hate slash with the burning fire of Starkiller base.
But, you know, I guess for you it's a Life Day/Droidmass miracle!
posted by Mezentian at 3:47 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

The coat he wore on Hoth in ESB definitely looks pretty darn brown. His big coat in TFA looked like a very dark gray to me.
posted by clorox at 4:05 AM on December 23, 2015

His big coat in TFA looked like a very dark gray to me.

What.... what?
HERETIC!
posted by Mezentian at 4:22 AM on December 23, 2015

Saw it last night, have some theories and thoughts, need to catch up on the thread, but mostly just came in to say that it was really hard to watch Adam Driver be the new baddie, because I'm mostly familiar with his work on Girls, so I kept thinking of him as Darth Fuckboy.
posted by palomar at 5:30 AM on December 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

That was pretty much my whole first take on him. I liked him a lot more the second time around, but the first time, I kept expecting him to use his lightsaber for pegging play or something.
posted by Errant at 5:59 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

so I kept thinking of him as Darth Fuckboy

I'm not sure the film as text presents any compelling reason to give up this approach.
posted by Ipsifendus at 6:01 AM on December 23, 2015 [25 favorites]

My kids loved this movie and that brings me joy. So mission accomplished.

Yep. I was really happy with how much more I enjoyed the movie than I expected to, but the bigger deal in my mind is that when the last scene smashed to the credits, my 11 year old daughter made an audible cry of dismay that it was over. My nephew apparently wrapped up his viewing immediately wanting to know when, exactly, the next chapter is coming. So this thing is playing exactly the way it should to the demographic that really counts.
posted by Ipsifendus at 6:11 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Does The Dark Side Of The Force just turn u into a fuckboy or what

(Whole thread is good.)
posted by kmz at 6:12 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

Saw it last night, loved it.

But I think everyone is missing the obvious key that ties all the plots together. Luke is obviously Rey’s father. But equally obvious is this: GENDER-SWAPPED HAN SOLO IS OBVIOUSLY REY’S MOTHER.

Go with me for a minute:

-Leia sends her sweet boy Ben off to Luke Skywalker’s Montessori Religious Fundamentalist Jedi Summer Camp/Gifted and Talented program, partially because she and Han are fighting all the time, also sometimes their ships and bases are firebombed, which is generally not recommended for childhood development
-Han pisses Leia off, and she sends him away. Then he pisses someone else off, who genderswaps him as punishment. Figuring that if anyone can fix it, Luke can, he heads off to wherever the school is. But when he gets there, a wacky set of coincidences means that he somehow doesn’t manage to tell Luke who he is, and then they’re making out for some reason and Han goes with it. Because why not. Old school love triangle has already explored all the other permutations.
-Ben, already feeling excluded by his mystical classmates because they think he’s both royalty AND dirty rebel scum (it takes a while for Jedi school to teach kids to leave their prejudices behind), suddenly has no facetime w/Uncle Luke, because Uncle Luke is always running off to mash faces with his new mystery girlfriend.
-School lessons suffer. “Balance rocks for 12 hours, feel the force!” Luke says, then peaces out. Jedi busywork! Not surprising, since Luke has, like, half of one 101 credit in the Jedi curriculum. His school is not accredited.
-Ben befriends the tiny man who runs the local candy shop. “You seem like such a brave and smart young man!” kindly Mister Snoke chuckles. “More caramels?”
-Han gets pregnant, reacts w/panic and lying. The usual.

Eventually there is a big showdown after Rey is born, kindly Mister Snoke somehow arranges a revelation scene where Han is switched back to his old self, Ben sees the whole thing, realizes his father came to the Jedi School planet to conduct a gender swapped affair with his uncle AND NEVER EVEN CAME TO SEE HIM OR GIVE HIM ANY ALLOWANCE MONEY, has some sort of Jedi rage blackout. Han and Luke escape, separately, someone else has the baby (Jedi school gym teacher?), they all scatter.

When Ben comes to, all his classmates are slaughtered around him. Maybe from his Force tantrum, maybe NOT, but Mister Snoke pulls a Scar and a “Simba WHAT HAVE YOU DONE” and says that Ben can never go home, they’ll never want him now, first they sent him away and now he’s a monster, but Mister Snoke will take him in. Mister Snoke will give him a home, and a new name, and his dead grandfather’s charred skull. Everything will be fine, little buddy!

So, the traumatized, newly named Rylo Ken runs off to be a bad guy, and he tries super hard to be extra evil, so that Mister Snoke won’t send him back to his mother. She’ll be so MAD.

Luke, horrified at Han’s betrayal, and also at how much he truly sucked at educational administration and basic pedagogy, runs off to find a possibly mythical temple. He thinks Han has the baby, or thinks the baby died, or something.

Han gets back into smuggling, sure, why not. He thinks Luke has the baby, or the baby died, or something.

The Jedi gym teacher sends a message to Han that he needs to come pick up his Jedi kid on Jakku. The message misses Han, but gets to Leia, who thinks it is a weirdly cruel insult about Ben, and ignores it.

And 20 years later: BUM BAH BAH DAH BUM BAH DAHHHHHHHHHHH

(Please note: the joy of this crackpot theory is that it adds a lot of unsubtle layers to any interactions where:
-anyone talks to Han about Luke (“Yeah, I knew Luke.” BOY DID HE.)
-Han looks at Rey with his heart bursting through his eyes, especially because she has such an inexplicably instinctive way of working on the Millennium Falcon
-Rylo Ken being so perplexed yet fascinated by Rey
-Rylo Ken promising hologram Mister Snoke that he can totally be evil, he can! He might need some help but he can definitely do it! Please don’t send me home, please please let me stay! I promise to double my evil quota for the month, really truly!)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:15 AM on December 23, 2015 [14 favorites]

I saw it last night. Loved it. I had a smile on my face right up until the very end. Fortunately, I had nothing major spoiled for me, only things like "they show the chess board in the Falcon again", which I would have preferred to have been a surprise, but whatever.

I saw Jedi on opening night when I was 13. Waited three hours with my older brothers. May 25, 1983. I've been waiting for this movie ever since. I had my 13 year old son with me and he also enjoyed it.

It was a Star Wars movie. It was what the prequels should have been. It was what Star Wars as written and directed by not-hacks was like. Yet it felt very much like a modern movie and not something from 1978. Go figure.

The only thing I didn't care for was the giant bad guy who was Kylo Ren's master. He just didn't feel like something out of this universe. Felt more Lord of the Rings to me.

I enjoyed Adam Driver more than I thought I would. I hate him on Girls, though I hate everyone on that goddamn show. His tantrums made him feel a bit like someone out of Spaceballs but I actually enjoyed that about him.

I want to see it again after reading about all the Easter eggs.

Seeing "Bad Robot" right away in the end credits was weird, as was not having the Fox fanfare in the beginning.

It's not gonna win best picture, but it was a totally enjoyable Star Wars movie.
posted by bondcliff at 6:23 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Also, one of the things I loved most was how they showed us familiar things, but more of them. Like the inside if a TIE fighter, the TIE fighters in their hangers. TIE fighters have ejection seats and parachutes! They showed more of the Falcon, but also familiar stuff like the holo-chess, the gas masks, and the smuggling compartments. The goddamn targeting computer with it's shitty 1970s graphics! And the deflector shield thingy was square because Lando knocked the old one off on the Death Star 2.

And it was great to see Chewie be more of a central character rather than a sidekick. He was a badass in this one. Funny though that Han had never before noticed Chewie's crossbow.

It was a great mix of the familiar and the new, which is exactly what it should have been.
posted by bondcliff at 6:35 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

The only thing I didn't care for was the giant bad guy who was Kylo Ren's master. He just didn't feel like something out of this universe. Felt more Lord of the Rings to me.

It struck me as an older reference--the Great and Terrible Oz.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:36 AM on December 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

I felt the hologram was definitely intended to mislead, though probably not Hux or Kylo, unless Snoke's interactions with Kylo have been exclusively through holograms. The first time we spied the Emperor, he was a giant hologram hovering over a kneeling Vader in ESB. I think that served as a reference as well.
posted by Atreides at 6:45 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

Like the inside if a TIE fighter, the TIE fighters in their hangers. TIE fighters have ejection seats and parachutes!

Funny thing about the TIE fighter, I did sorta wonder how much they were using it to drop some info on the hardcore nerds, as far as how things have changed under the control of the First Order. Two things spring to mind that aren't said, but are apparent:

First, older TIE fighters were single seat. So, apparently the First Order has a new version with a pilot and a gunner. Teamwork (vs. just having two TIE fighters in the air at once), I guess?

Second, and more importantly, TIE fighters from the original trilogy reportedly don't even have landing gear, in order to prevent defection (you have to land them in a special thing in the hangar). Parachutes would probably be right out, in that context. But, the First Order doesn't have a problem with this, perhaps due to the whole mind control / indoctrination thing.
posted by tocts at 6:48 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

This thread is almost a week old – can we just keep it running until Rogue One comes out? I've been enjoying this discussion almost as much as the film itself.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 6:54 AM on December 23, 2015 [24 favorites]

Funny thing about the TIE fighter, I did sorta wonder how much they were using it to drop some info on the hardcore nerds, as far as how things have changed under the control of the First Order.

There is a self-proclaimed "hardcore nerd" in the next cube over. I have listened to him yammer on about how "awful" the movie is ever since the first teaser trailer. I just listened to him rant about how predictable the movie was (of course he saw it opening weekend, even though he knew he was going to hate it) so it is my wish that J.J. Abrams and any other future directors go out of their way to piss off the hardcore nerds.
posted by bondcliff at 6:57 AM on December 23, 2015 [17 favorites]

Also, the First Order Nazi-esque call backs felt really out of place for Star Wars. The general who was giving the speech sounded like an honest to god true believer that echoed real Nazis waaaay too much. I was all like "JJ, what the fuck my man? This is supposed to be escapist fun, not space nazis!"

I don't think TFA was great, I didn't hate it either. But it did manage to sour me on J.J. Abrams as a director. He's solid, but not great and his directorial work often feels derivative (like Super 8). He's been involved in a lot of stuff I like, such as Fringe, Lost and Alias, which makes me think he's stronger writer and/or idea guy as opposed to director. For that, look no further than the Star Trek films, which were pretty unmemorable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:17 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Ok, second viewing now questions: The First Order are so far 100% human, right? They're ethnically diverse within humanity, but I spotted no aliens at all and Hux's distaste at the clone army suggestions - I'm thinking they're pushing the human eugenics hard, even though the Supreme Leader is clearly Not Quite Human - that the First Order is the human-only section and every other race is welcome into Snoke's horrible empire but all neatly and orderly sectioned off into their own sectors? Or is Snoke the glorious future of evolved humans to them?

And more than that - I didn't see any droids in service of the First Order this time either. I was thinking of CP3PO's droid spy network and how Rey really talks to BB-8 and treats BB-8 as a sentient creature with individual worth and not a commodity. The First Order seems to have no independent droids - instead they use humans, programmed like droids, and turned into a giant hive-machine. Is that related to the First Order being Force-driven and anti-droid, or some other EU reference?

Another little thing I absolutely appreciated was that they let Rey get dirty. Her hands are weathered and grimy, her face is basically clean but not all "I'm fighting crime in subtle make-up" - she looks like someone who has been sweating and climbing through a jungle when she does those things. It's so good.

And the camera angles - I was watching for all the usual lingering on body parts and the camera doesn't - the camera gazes at everyone pretty equally. When Rey is crawling through the ducts, there's no swing of the camera to linger on her butt or to go over her face, framing her oh-so-pretty with cleavage - the way they did with Padme which reduced her from this kickass Senator-fighter to a hapless Jedi pin-up by the end. The camera lingered most on Han Solo of all of the characters, and it was so - not exactly neutral, but the sexualized aspects of the characters weren't spotlighted.

Also all the touching. The Resistance people are constantly touching each other. Rey on Jakku doesn't touch anyone. She parks at a distance, she works alone, she holds herself carefully apart and she doesn't like being touched. Finn touches but in this furniture way - people are just furniture at first, and then there's that moment somewhere for both of them where they start touching people for more than utility. It's so warm.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:59 AM on December 23, 2015 [19 favorites]

Rey is not a role model for little girls (Spoiler: title of article may not exactly reflect actual contents)
posted by anastasiav at 8:06 AM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

The coat he wore on Hoth in ESB definitely looks pretty darn brown. His big coat in TFA looked like a very dark gray to me.

Crap. I always saw blue (most of the photos AND the action figure showed it being blue), but, to quote Henry from Longmire: it is what it is.

All things considered, I'd prefer it in navy blue. That's Han's jam!
posted by grubi at 8:11 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

This thread is almost a week old – can we just keep it running until Rogue One comes out? I've been enjoying this discussion almost as much as the film itself.

Fanfare threads don't close, so I really wouldn't be surprised if this happens.

so I kept thinking of him as Darth Fuckboy

I'm not sure the film as text presents any compelling reason to give up this approach.

Yes, this is basically his name for me now now.

From KMZ's twitter thread above:

Not All Kylo Ren
/tips sith hood
m'leia
Rens' Might Activists. They're not anti-Jedi; they're just concerned about issues that affect dark side users.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:23 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Well, I wrote another post: Tolkien, THE FORCE AWAKENS, and the Sadness of Expanded Universes.
posted by gerryblog at 8:51 AM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

The TIE fighter is a "special forces" TIE, hence it's red marking and the two seater. In terms of the safety gear, we can determine one or two things: 1) The First Order does not have an infinite supply of humans to simply toss away like piecemeal, and therefore, it's important to keep them alive. Somewhere I read that the TIEs of the First Order also have shields, something the original TIE did not. 2) The First Order only values its Special Forces guys, so puts in extra measures to keep them alive due to the time and expense of training them. It can also be both.

There's at least one droid working for the First Order, a mouse droid was killed when Finn blew up the hangar's control center. Also, we spot an upgraded version of the interrogator droid (the original seen when Leia is being questioned in ANH) in use with at least Poe. These two droids are both droids or versions of droids used by the Empire.
posted by Atreides at 8:55 AM on December 23, 2015

That's a great essay, gerryblog, thank you for sharing it. I've only seen the main films so all my Star Wars knowledge is full of optimism and heroism, it's interesting to read it through the prism of crushing bleakness.

I find myself wanting more Star Wars. Are any of the Expanded Universe novels actually good? I mean good novels with real characters and interesting stories you'd read even if it wasn't Star Wars? So many franchise tie-ins are mediocre filler. FWIW this GoodReads list has Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy at the top of the heap. Those were written back in 1991 and are set 5 years after Return of the Jedi.
posted by Nelson at 9:28 AM on December 23, 2015

There's a lot of little details that are bugging me about this in the harsh cold light of the week after, and one of them is that the new TIEs have shields and hyperdrives and parachutes and seat two but they look exactly like the old TIEs we're nostalgic for.

The pilot-in-a-bubble design of the original TIE communicated something about how much the Empire valued those ships and the people flying them, and contrasted with the larger, more complex, droid-equipped starfighters the Rebellion used. And it made perfect sense when Vader was able to take his into hyperspace at the end of ANH after Obi-Wan had already established that TIEs were short-range fighters; his TIE had a big trunk projecting from the rear that could obviously fit a lot of spaceship guts.

Are any of the Expanded Universe novels actually good?

The Thrawn books are good in and of themselves, but the tone never really felt quite like Star Wars to me. The only ones I ever felt inclined to re-read were the Rogue Squadron novels by Michael Stackpole.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:44 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I loved The Force Awakens. Every minute. I saw the original trilogy in theaters and drive-ins. Each movie 3 times, mostly with my grandmother. After ROTJ, I sort of had a moratorium on Star Wars. I was immersed in the prequel hype but trusted my friends' warnings and never saw the films, wanting to preserve the fuzzy memories of Han, Luke and my grandma. I went Monday AM with my wife, the first time we'd been to a movie since Capote and we both had our socks blown off. This has been a great thread with some thought provoking and funny stuff. I would like to know more about the ship than Han and Chewbacca were using prior to recovering the Falcon. I never heard it mentioned by name and don't remember seeing a clear shot of it.
posted by firemouth at 9:54 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Also, the First Order Nazi-esque call backs felt really out of place for Star Wars.

Have you seen a Star Wars?
posted by Artw at 9:56 AM on December 23, 2015 [25 favorites]

Here's the problem with the printed Expanded Universe. Virtually everything since 1991 (and beyond) is officially not canon concerning the characters we have known and love from the Original Trilogy. That's a great swathe of material, some fun reads among it, that has been reduced to "Star Wars Legends." You might consider things like Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy as one of those comic book like "Alternative Universe story!" They can still be enjoyable, but you have to admit that anything that happens in them isn't happening officially from Disney's perspective.

With that in mind, Disney is busy trying to fill this new gap with new material. Aftermath by Chuck Wendig was highlighted as the biggest new piece and it starts off shortly after Jedi, but it doesn't really feature any of the primary characters. It's a generally fun book to read, though Wendig has an odd style which can be kind of aggravating at times. There's a young adult book, Lost Stars by Claudia Grey, which actually ends up being a lot of fun to read, again not about the main stars, but it wraps its multi-year story around key events in the Original Trilogy and that blows one's heart up with nostalgia. It starts off a tad slow, as she made the decision to write initially a more simple style to fit the age of the characters, then makes it more sophisticated as you watch the characters grow up (quickly). That book actually takes us to the Battle of Jakku, which is why there's all that old rusting Imperial equipment and ships hanging around Rey's home. It's partly fascinating because it shows generally good people going into Imperial service, believing it to be a source for good in the galaxy, and covers their own evolving understanding of the government they serve.

I found A New Dawn a fun read, but it covers characters from the tv show Rebels, and so, it may not be that interesting unless you know the show. There are books coming out about our main characters, but I haven't had a chance to really delve into them. I picked one up on Luke, but I haven't had a chance to read it - it's probably a middle school level book (something I didn't realize!), so I don't have high hopes on it being that fascinating. The book on Moff Tarkin, Tarkin, likewise wasn't bad either, and shed's light on how he came to be who he is and how his philosophy came to symbolize the Empire's rule through fear ideology.

Here's a list of the new books, you'll notice a fair chunk are considered for young readers.

I think some of the new books are as enjoyable as the stuff of the old Expanded Universe (I was another Michael Stackpole fan, too!). If you're cautious, find a library and go from there. If you are just hungering for new material, I wouldn't not recommend any of the books I've mentioned. I wrote brief reviews on Aftermath, Tarkin, and Lost Stars, too, if you want a deeper look than what I've written here.
posted by Atreides at 9:57 AM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

Oh, and I did want to agree with everyone who has pointed out the bleakness of the movie. It is remarkably sad that these fast friends and lovers can't stand to be around each other now. It's easy for me too see Han slipping back into smuggling after losing a child to the dark side. H. Ford seemed not disinterested in the role to me, instead Han Solo felt heartbroken.
posted by firemouth at 10:02 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Film Crit Hulk: "OKAY STAR WARS. ITS NOT JUST A "BAD PLOT" PROBLEM. THERE WAS BARELY AN EARNED MOMENT OR COMPLETE PSYCHOLOGY IN THE ENTIRE MOVIE, LET ALONE A DRAMATIC ORDER... GREAT ACTORS THOUGH. THEY HAD NO FOUNDATION THOUGH."

Just a tweet, no essay unfortunately. I can see some of this point, since certain things didn't land as solidly or allowed to sink in, because the film felt like it was moving pretty fast. I really want to read a fuller view as to why he think the whole movie falls apart though.
posted by FJT at 10:09 AM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

She even has her own collection of Star Wars memorabilia.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:17 AM on December 23, 2015 [29 favorites]

I haven't read any new EU novels yet, but as I said above the Marvel comics line that started earlier this year is great and really captures the original trilogy feel.

Of old EU/Legends I agree with a general consensus that Rogue Squadron (Stackpole is straight up military sci-fi; the Allston books are more comedic) and the Zahn books (read in publication order) are among the cream of the crop, but I need to throw my hat in the ring for Matthew Stover's Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, a metafictional pulptastic adventure which on the strength of its characterization alone is probably the single novel I most regret losing from "official" canon, Thrawn and Mara Jade notwithstanding. I've also heard from people who've read Stover's RotS novelization that it's so vastly superior to its source material that it reads as though it were the original and the film a poor adaptation.

Prose-wise, I'd rank them Stover > Zahn > Stackpole/Allston.
posted by bettafish at 10:30 AM on December 23, 2015

One of the things I love most about Rey is that she is, in-universe, an unabashed Star Wars nerd. She doesn't just know the story of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and the Millennium Falcon, she's studied the specs of the YT-1300 Corellian light freighter and grouses about the untutored hackery of putting a compressor on the hyperdrive coupling just because you can't handle that much kick.

Rey worked on the Falcon in some capacity and some piloting/engineering knowledge. She knew exactly who had put that compressor on the Falcon and had argued against it. She knew where the electrical systems were and how to use them to bypass the compressor and was well aware that the Falcon hadn't flown in years. Plus the knowledge of exactly who had owned after it was stolen from Solo (though she didn't know it was THE Falcon).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:45 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Was Leia claiming that Luke had turned Ben Solo a throwaway line (chalked up to grief/bitterness) - or did I mishear her?
posted by Golem XIV at 10:45 AM on December 23, 2015

...turned Ben Solo to the dark side that is...
posted by Golem XIV at 10:52 AM on December 23, 2015

You misheard, she said Snoke did it. But she did mention something about Luke training Ben.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:54 AM on December 23, 2015

i realize that Kylo Ren's mask is because he worships Vader, but also it covers up Adam Drivers kind of adorable vocal fry. So when his helmet is off he sounds like the child-man he is.
posted by angrycat at 10:59 AM on December 23, 2015

Was Leia claiming that Luke had turned Ben Solo a throwaway line (chalked up to grief/bitterness) - or did I mishear her?

This is a thing I've been thinking about, because I'm not totally convinced that Kylo Ren actually trained with Luke or is the person who destroyed the Academy (although he probably is, but in the interest of anticipating plot twists, let's proceed, and all of this is just from memory so I could be missing something).

What Han says: Luke started a new Jedi Academy. One of his students turned against him and destroyed everything he'd built.

Han: There's too much Vader in him.
Leia: I know. I should never have sent him away to train with Luke. That's when we lost him.

The way she phrased that makes me wonder: what if Ben Solo-Organa was intercepted on his way to training with Luke and got picked up by Snoke? Or, alternately, what if Snoke was the student who turned against Luke, corrupted his nephew, and destroyed the academy? One of the things I've been trying to figure out is, why does Snoke care about finding Luke? He says he doesn't want Luke to build a new academy, which makes some sense and would probably be narratively sufficient. But if he wants to find and destroy his old master, that makes a lot more sense to me and fits with the general theme of children vs. parents and masters vs. apprentices.
posted by Errant at 11:03 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yeah, Snoke being the student who turned could be an interesting twist. There's no guarantee that Luke's Jedi academy was only for children, after all-- he'd have no reason to think adults couldn't learn to be Jedi, having done it himself, and was probably happy to take any Force-sensitive students he could find. If Snoke turned a bunch of Luke's students (including Ben) against him-- those students becoming the Knights of Ren-- and destroyed the rest, that would make a bunch of pieces fit together.
posted by nonasuch at 11:09 AM on December 23, 2015

Actually, I think you're conflating two lines (though this is so new, and I'm going off memory, so who knows!)

I think what was actually said was (slight paraphrase):

Han: There's too much Vader in him.
Leia: I know, that's why I wanted Luke to train him.
[ some other stuff ]
Leia: I know there's still light in him. We never should have sent him away, that's when we lost him.

I think there's a plausible argument that "training with Luke" and "being sent away" aren't the same thing. Maybe there is something to the notion that Ben Solo trained with Luke, but then had some problems, Han/Leia pushed him away in some way, and now we have Kylo Ren (created by an encounter with Snoke). This would dovetail with the "Rey is Ben's daughter" possibility -- perhaps the thing that got him in trouble and led to him being sent away was him teen angsting out and his girlfriend becoming pregnant.
posted by tocts at 11:11 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

According to the novelization, Snoke's been around for a while, since at least the first Galactic war.

Leia was aware of Snoke and feared he might try to turn Ben, so she kept knowledge of Snoke from Han, figuring as non believer, he wouldn't be much help and as Force Sensitive person, she could.

Also, Ben hates Han because he never lived up the legends about him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:30 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also, the First Order Nazi-esque call backs felt really out of place for Star Wars.

I know, right? Weird.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:31 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

The Thrawn books are good in and of themselves, but the tone never really felt quite like Star Wars to me.

When the second teaser trailer came out this spring it made me antsy enough to buy the first Thrawn book, and the tone never felt quite right to me either. Fairly early on in the story there's a tiny but awkward aside where Luke enjoys an "exotic beverage" that was so distractingly annoying to me that I couldn't get past it; I read a few more chapters but my brain kept sticking on that one passage and saying "Really?!" and I never did finish it. (You can google "Heir to the Empire" and "Exotic Beverage" for spoilers.)

In fairness to Timothy Zahn, though, so much of my love for the original films (and the new one) was about the audio-visual design of everything (sets, ships, costumes, creatures, weapons, score) that I think I'd have a hard time getting into extended universe stuff in other media; I remember my sixth grade teacher reading Splinter of the Mind's Eye (Warning: review contains spoilers) in class and having the and similar trouble getting into it.

I'm interested to see how Rogue One is executed; will as much care be taken to give it that nebulous "feel" we keep talking about, or will it be a more generic sci-fi action flick that happens to have Star Wars-y costumes and ships?
posted by usonian at 11:33 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

"If you've seen "Star Wars: The Force Awakens" you're probably aware some of the best sequences from the trailers didn't make it into the final film. One of those scenes is this one, which shows the pirate alien Maz Kanata handing off Anakin/Luke Skywalker's lightsaber to General Leia Organa."
posted by larrybob at 11:35 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Fairly early on in the story there's a tiny but awkward aside where Luke enjoys an "exotic beverage" that was so distractingly annoying to me that I couldn't get past it; I read a few more chapters but my brain kept sticking on that one passage and saying "Really?!" and I never did finish it.

I did finish those books and an almost embarassing amount of Star Wars EU books after, but that exotic beverage bit was still so weird that it has stuck in my brain for like 20 years.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:40 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm interested to see how Rogue One is executed; will as much care be taken to give it that nebulous "feel" we keep talking about, or will it be a more generic sci-fi action flick that happens to have Star Wars-y costumes and ships?

Considering that Lucas mainly cribbed from Kurosawa and WWII films, I really want it to be a "Guns of Navarone" style "hard-bitten crackerjack rebels on a mission to sabotage some shit" movie. Given that I know absolutely nothing about the actual movie, though, I'm bound to be disappointed.

That one still they released did look cool, though. And it has Donnie Yen and I just like his face.
posted by selfnoise at 11:41 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

According to the novelization, Snoke's been around for a while, since at least the first Galactic war.

Boo. There goes my "Snoke is Luke" Theory. Recognizing that the Force requires balance, Luke sets himself up as both the Head Poobah for the Dark and the Light sides. He got the idea when he saw Ben was struggling with his place in the galaxy and reached out to him as Snoke.

Unless, of course, we only hear it from Snoke that he's been around since the rise of the Empire....
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:44 AM on December 23, 2015

Also, the First Order Nazi-esque call backs felt really out of place for Star Wars.

I know, right? Weird.

Yes, weird. This time around we had had the deranged speech, which was punctuated by the 'heil hitler' gesture. Before it was much more subtle, but Abrams turned the dial up from a 4 to an 8.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:48 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

The Nazi salute was open-handed, palm down. The First Order used clenched fists.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:56 AM on December 23, 2015

There are a few new things I noticed seeing it a second time:

> Rey has a handmade doll that looks like an X-Wing pilot in her hut, in addition to the beat up flight helmet that she wears while she's eating dinner at the feet of the AT-AT.

> When Rey is in the MacGuffin shed at the end of the movie (precinct whatever) she pulls a doodad out of a panel, which mirrors the first shot that the audience sees of her, and may in fact even be the same doodad.

> When Ren is mind-plumbing Rey, he mentions the final set in the movie, something along the lines of "An ocean as far as the eye can see, and you on an island," indicating that Rey most likely lived out her early childhood on the island temple.

> Three objects from the OT come back to life in this one: R2, The Falcon, and Luke's lightsabre.

> I caught McGregor's VA line as Kenobi this time around, "Rey... this is your first step."

> The structure of how Mav introduces Rey to the sabre definitely implies that she's Luke's daughter, something like, "This was Luke's sabre, and his father's before him, and now it's yours." If there is a parentage twist, then they're definitely doing due diligence to lead in the opposite direction.

Anyway, it was good a second time too. I took my parents out as a Christmas present, and we had a good time discussing the film in the car afterwards. They both liked it a lot too. We went early to avoid crowds, and we had nearly a full theater at 10:00 AM on a weekday, so I think that this is going to absolutely crush the coming weekend, and will be well on pace to beat Jurassic World's rush to over 500 million. To be honest, I think it's the new record holder over Avatar.
posted by codacorolla at 11:56 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'm home this week and went to go see this last night with my family. My brother can pull a pretty solid wookie noise and did it last night amongst the cheers and clapping preceding the opening crawl. Pretty great.
posted by phunniemee at 12:00 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

There are a couple of versions of the Kylo Ren as an undercover agent theory going around and I have to say I dig them!

It might set up an ending where Kylo/Rey bring balance to the force as a team. In the prequel, the Sith are in control (unbalanced); in the original trilogy the Jedi were left with no counterbalance (ironically, if Luke joined Vader in Empire to overthrow the Emporer they might have achieved such balance!).

This might also explain why R2 woke up after Han is killed (R2 know everything and was in sleep mode until it received signal from Kylo that the next stage is afoot).
posted by mazola at 12:00 PM on December 23, 2015

Watched the Graham Norton episode with Carrie Fisher (and her dog), Daisy Ridley and John Boyega via YouTube yesterday. Recommended - lots of laughs.
posted by larrybob at 12:05 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

To be honest, I think it's the new record holder over Avatar.

I think this is almost inevitable. I saw it Saturday at 9am, and then Monday at 11am. In both cases, the theater was 100% sold out. I just checked an evening showing tonight at the same theater (it's an assigned seating theater), and there's a handful of tickets unsold.

I expect this is going to be playing to nearly sold out crowds for weeks.
posted by tocts at 12:06 PM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

The Nazi salute was open-handed, palm down. The First Order used clenched fists.

Oh, well then there's no similarity whatsoever.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:07 PM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

I saw it on Monday at noon and people were standing in the aisle.
posted by firemouth at 12:10 PM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Boo. There goes my "Snoke is Luke" Theory.

He's a CLONE

Snoke Liewalker!
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:15 PM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Regarding Rey, somebody pointed out upthread that Kylo Ren appears to be inadvertantly teaching her: IE, every time he does something, she figures it out very quickly (mental stuff, the lightsaber fighting, the telekinesis). Does she do anything before he does? Have to see the film again.

I wonder if she is some kind of countermeasure or Manchurian jedi... somehow set aside with repressed programming in case Ren went bad and then "activated" (by the lightsaber?) specifically in order to neutralize him. It would explain her amazing learning rate.

That would probably be too weird for SW but I keep hoping for something less repetitive than "she's related to someone".
posted by selfnoise at 12:17 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Regarding Rey, somebody pointed out upthread that Kylo Ren appears to be inadvertantly teaching her: IE, every time he does something, she figures it out very quickly (mental stuff, the lightsaber fighting, the telekinesis). Does she do anything before he does? Have to see the film again.

The flying and shooting teamwork exhibited by her and Finn in the Falcon was amazing, not sure if it counts though. But it seems to, though on intuition level. AfterHan confirms that the Force and the legends are real, she quickly figures out stuff when DarthEmo attacks her.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:20 PM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I feel like one has to be a quick learner to survive on one's own on a planet like Jakku.
posted by infinitewindow at 12:20 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

I also think that Finn's Force-sensitive, so he and Rey were feeding off each other (in a good way!) in the Falcon.
posted by nonasuch at 12:27 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

I feel like one has to be a quick learner to survive on one's own on a planet like Jakku.

I agree, but her speed of force technique mastery is so wildly out of proportion with prior series characters (including the notable-for-being-very-powerful Anakin Skywalker) that it just suggested to me some kind of other explanation.

I just think back to Luke's struggle with the rocks and the X-wing, and then Rey's like "oh yeah, TK, cool, got it. Gonna grab a lightsaber from a frickin' Sith warrior". Which some people were complaining about (the whole Mary Sue thing) but I was like "whoa, what weird stuff are they not telling us yet?"

Or, hey, EU Jedi have all kinds of weird specialized abilities and so does Ren (I've never seen a Jedi freeze a blaster shot in place before last week), so maybe Rey has the ability to intuitively absorb other Jedis powers.
posted by selfnoise at 12:29 PM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I agree, but her speed of force technique mastery is so wildly out of proportion with prior series characters (including the notable-for-being-very-powerful Anakin Skywalker) that it just suggested to me some kind of other explanation.

Honestly, I think the "other explanation" is Abrams or Disney or something similar. It simply changed because the current filmakers deemed it should and that's that.

Yeah, it bugs me too.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:36 PM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

I mean, film not called 'The Force Hits The Snooze Button.' If it's Awakening, that presumably means it's doing something it hadn't been doing before-- like being more easily accessed by the untrained.

(also at some point I will have to write down my many, many feelings about what it would mean to ACTUALLY bring balance to the Force, because the Jedi's 'feelings are bad' approach was not working and the Sith's 'you should definitely have as many feelings as possible at all times' approach isn't either, and having Force users who can actually find a point of balance between those extremes would be THE BEST)

(also also Rey had been in Kylo's head not ten minutes previous, which is probably where she got the idea for the mind trick)
posted by nonasuch at 12:44 PM on December 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

I'm not sure that I totally understand why it is blowing so many internet minds that Rey AND Finn might be Force sensitive, although Rey is certainly stronger in it. I mean, going into the film, I was thinking less "the force is about to awaken in one particular person" and more "the force throughout this galaxy is about to stir awake for very many people." Before, maybe only the strongest in the Force were able to work with it, but now more people are able to sense it, to use it, to whack various people with lightsabers.

It almost made me think that maybe the Starkiller precipitated the shift-- the stars themselves are being consumed. Maybe the Force of the galaxy is no longer content to wait for super mega Force users, and is ready for some mid-level players to enter the game.

Also: STILL waiting for Leia to do some hardcore Jedi stuff. Remember the whole thing where Yoda kept reminding Obi-wan that Luke wasn't their only hope? "There is another"? LET LEIA MOVE MOUNTAINS WITH HER MINDPOWERS.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:48 PM on December 23, 2015 [12 favorites]

nonasuch, Force Awakening evolving into more universal power jinx!
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2015

[Force-high-fives a fiendish thingy]
posted by nonasuch at 12:51 PM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

oh and! (last one for a bit I swear) the other thing is that for the entire existence of the Empire they were weeding out potentially Force-sensitive children at birth, right? So there is, in fact, a shortage of adults in the 30-60 age range with the potential to be Jedi. Rey and Finn's generation are the first to reach adulthood after the fall of the Empire, and the first since the fall of the Republic to escape that weeding-out. That could very well be a factor, too.
posted by nonasuch at 12:55 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Episode VIII, a powerful new Sith fights Rey and Finn and disables them

all hope seems lost

then a figure steps out of the shadows

IT'S LEIA

she switches on her lightsaber and starts flipping around all crazy-like
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:55 PM on December 23, 2015 [14 favorites]

Also: STILL waiting for Leia to do some hardcore Jedi stuff. Remember the whole thing where Yoda kept reminding Obi-wan that Luke wasn't their only hope? "There is another"? LET LEIA MOVE MOUNTAINS WITH HER MINDPOWERS.

In my head, Leia is an awesome diplomat because of unconscious use of her Force powers.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:55 PM on December 23, 2015 [16 favorites]

prize bull octorok, now you are speaking my language.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:00 PM on December 23, 2015

Leia doesn't need the Force to be an awesome diplomat. It does help with avoiding C-3PO from time to time.
posted by Atreides at 1:23 PM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Why does Han Solo -- and SO many other people -- wear whippets clipped to his clothes? Is he some sort of huffing junkie? I mean...bandoliers of inhalants?!
posted by wenestvedt at 1:28 PM on December 23, 2015 [13 favorites]

Everyone needs lots of pen lids.
posted by Artw at 1:32 PM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

pen lids are essential if you're gonna smuggle loosies
posted by numaner at 1:34 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

The thing Kathleen Kennedy asked JJ Abrams that got him on board was "Who is Luke Skywalker?" which is what makes me think that Rey is NOT Luke's daughter. This was JJ's one Star Wars movie, but the question that was important enough to get him on board wasn't explored directly since Luke was barely in it. I doubt JJ just dropped the question if it's the very thing that brought him on board and it was important to Kennedy as well. I think he just went about exploring it in a less obvious way: is it nature or nurture that makes a Luke Skywalker? Kylo's on Team Nature with the inherited Force powers of the Skywalker bloodline, and Rey was basically raised in a copy of Luke's upbringing. If she was related, her half of this doesn't work.

I think the answer to this question will be "both" and Kylo and Rey will have to work together to prevail over Snoke.

My tinfoil fan theory side wants to think that someone in the world of the movies is trying to answer this question as well and actually created the conditions of Rey's upbringing since it's steeped in Luke Skywalker elements - desert planet, the X-Wing pilot helmet and doll, not knowing your family, proficient with machines and especially starships, living near a kooky old man with some connection to the Force, growing up with no idea of the prophecy your family is tied up in...
posted by jason_steakums at 1:49 PM on December 23, 2015 [10 favorites]

Do they have sarlaccs on Jakku? Perhaps sarlacc poop contains midi-chlorians.

Seriously, the whole "Rey's life story is exactly like Luke's" thing bugged me in this movie. It really felt like a rewrite/reboot of the first film in that way. Not just an homage, but a deliberate retelling. I'd dearly like for that to Mean Something but I wonder if instead it was just a bunch of fan service.
posted by Nelson at 2:03 PM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

My tinfoil fan theory side wants to think that someone in the world of the movies is trying to answer this question as well and actually created the conditions of Rey's upbringing since it's steeped in Luke Skywalker elements - desert planet, the X-Wing pilot helmet and doll, not knowing your family, proficient with machines and especially starships, living near a kooky old man with some connection to the Force, growing up with no idea of the prophecy your family is tied up in...

I like this! For whatever reason it reminds me of that funny thing going around a while back about how the original trilogy was all about people trying to die in front of Luke so they got magical ghost bodies.
posted by selfnoise at 2:07 PM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Do they have sarlaccs on Jakku?

I noticed they have ducks.
posted by popcassady at 2:11 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Why does Han Solo -- and SO many other people -- wear whippets clipped to his clothes? Is he some sort of huffing junkie? I mean...bandoliers of inhalants?!

Code cylinders! I knew there was an answer, but it took me awhile to finesse the search terms. Access fob/usb drive/rank.
posted by sweetmarie at 2:49 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

It really felt like a rewrite/reboot of the first film in that way. Not just an homage, but a deliberate retelling.

If you look at Disney's business plan, I think things make much more sense if you view TFA as a reboot disguised as a sequel.

I hate reboot culture, so I appreciate that they at least try to keep that aspect on the down-low here. Not like what happens with Batman and Spiderman movies. I don't think I could enjoy that kind of re-enactment of Luke and Vader's trilogy.
posted by anonymisc at 3:09 PM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

Somewhere in an alternate universe, we're all really pissed about Benedict Cumberbatch getting cast as Lando Calrissian.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:18 PM on December 23, 2015 [15 favorites]

I did have an inkling that TFA was an OT re-bootish type thing. Kind of like how Evil Dead 2 basically remakes The Evil Dead in the first ten minutes, but in a way that doesn't negate ED while lampshading and, for lack of a better word, modernizing it. Lightsaber-in-a-box is very much like outline-of-a-chainsaw.
posted by infinitewindow at 4:04 PM on December 23, 2015

The more that I think about Rey, the more I realize just how weird the things going on around her and her time on Jakku are:

The hand holding child Rey in her flashback is Unkar Plutt’s (junk dealer played by Pegg) yet her relationship with Plutt seems like what Plutt has with any other Jakku denizen until he really wants BB-8.
Her life is a Luke Skywalker Starter Kit.
Han and Chewie can apparently track the Falcon when it leaves a planet and get there FAST, but in all those years it was missing, all the times it changed hands in the string of thefts Rey talked about, it apparently never left a planet? Or maybe whatever Han and Chewie were tracking was known about and disabled until a certain time.
She is told that whoever she’s waiting for isn’t coming back so she should stop waiting on Jakku. She is offered a job by Han. She is offered the lightsaber. Kylo wants to focus on finding her instead of BB-8 and offers to train her. Various people in the movie seem to know something about her and have a strong interest in what happens to her but we don’t know what the deal is.
Those things she saw when touching the lightsaber and the things Kylo read from her mind may be real memories, Force visions, implanted memories, who knows?
Someone told her old legends about Luke Skywalker and the Force and Lor San Tekka is right there the whole time and knows damn well those things are true. Someone told her stories about the Millennium Falcon, and didn’t tell her that the ship that was right there the whole time owned by Unkar Plutt, the ship that she’s worked on before, is the Falcon.
Lor San Tekka didn’t just have, like, the final clue to where Luke is – it’s very clearly exactly the piece that was missing from Artoo’s map, it was deleted from what Artoo was carrying and Artoo was made to sleep until it was brought to him. That piece was right there next to Rey on Jakku the whole time, and the other piece that Artoo had was right there with the Resistance the whole time. Lor is on the side of the Resistance, they’ve been searching for Luke... why does he only NOW give them his piece of the map?
Maz Kanata seems like the only underworld figure in this galaxy who doesn’t want Han’s head over some deal gone south or straight up swindling on his part. And Maz Kanata just happens to have THAT lightsaber and seems to know that Rey will go straight for it. And looking at Rey’s life so far and how it parallels Luke’s, her getting that lightsaber and an introduction to her destiny at this point in her life is the next step.

Something’s going on with her. NONE of the other characters have this much weirdness going on around them. I feel like Finn having a conscience and busting Poe out was a wildcard that prematurely got the ball rolling before someone’s plan was ready. And there may be more than one party with plans for her. Maybe she’s another iron in the fire for the Resistance, try to make a new Luke Skywalker in case they can’t find the original. Maybe she was intended to find that map and Luke Skywalker, because her backstory seems like it will get a foot in the door of his self-imposed exile and allow her to get close to him – which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on who put her on that path. Bad news if she’s a sleeper agent for Snoke with altered memories! Though that would explain how she picks up on Force powers so readily…

Whatever it is I feel like Maz Kanata's knee deep in it. She's got a lightsaber that would be REALLY HARD TO FIND, at least some familiarity with the Force, is on good terms with Han and Chewie, could easily arrange circumstances on Jakku and put plans in motion without the Resistance or First Order finding out and she's older than Yoda.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:50 PM on December 23, 2015 [19 favorites]

Something’s going on with her.

You have a very generous interpretation. Alternately, the story is written by hacks who couldn't figure out how to make something plausible. I think we really have no way of knowing. This film's story was fine, and the film was good, so yay! But what next?

See also: 40 Unforgivable Plot Holes in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens'. Some of the criticisms are wrong, but in general it paints a pretty stark picture. I prefer to approach the movie optimistically, but this cynical view is consistent too.
posted by Nelson at 5:19 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

After mulling it over, I've developed a theory that "Force sensitivity" is a canard, at least as it pertains to things like being able to turn on a lightsaber. Some people are stronger in its manipulation, sure, but isn't the whole point of the Force that it exists in all living things? It surrounds us, binds us, penetrates us, holds the universe together, right? I figure it usually manifests subtly: as what we'd call intuition, or even empathy. You don't have to be a Jedi to "have a bad feeling about this." So forget all this stuff about how Han or Finn are special because they're sensitive-- nearly everyone is!

Midi-chlorians are a red herring.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:29 PM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

You have a very generous interpretation. Alternately, the story is written by hacks who couldn't figure out how to make something plausible. I think we really have no way of knowing. This film's story was fine, and the film was good, so yay! But what next?

See also: 40 Unforgivable Plot Holes in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens'. Some of the criticisms are wrong, but in general it paints a pretty stark picture. I prefer to approach the movie optimistically, but this cynical view is consistent too.

The cynical view is consistent but it's not fun. Star Wars is fun and full of imperfections and plot holes and inconsistencies and hacky writing that every installment has always had, because it has other qualities that make up for that stuff. Hell, with very very few exceptions all of sci fi and fantasy is that way, all fiction is that way.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:33 PM on December 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

After mulling it over, I've developed a theory that "Force sensitivity" is a canard, at least as it pertains to things like being able to turn on a lightsaber. Some people are stronger in its manipulation, sure, but isn't the whole point of the Force that it exists in all living things? It surrounds us, binds us, penetrates us, holds the universe together, right? I figure it usually manifests subtly: as what we'd call intuition, or even empathy. You don't have to be a Jedi to "have a bad feeling about this." So forget all this stuff about how Han or Finn are special because they're sensitive-- nearly everyone is!

Midi-chlorians are a red herring.

I feel like Luke seeking out the very first Jedi temple, something that predates the Jedi order as we saw it in the prequels, is setting us up for some reveals of older knowledge of the Force that nullifies some of the lame stuff like midichlorians.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:36 PM on December 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

This was the coda to my Tolkien post, shamelessly linked above. I think the Force “awakens” in Episode 7 because the Force is currently chaotic and uncontrolled — and what looks like bad writing that leaves Rey and Ren massively overpowered compared to characters from the other movies is in fact a plot point about what happens when the Force isn’t being tended and is left on its own. I think the Force, in the absence of human attention, is actually dangerous, wild, like an ungrounded electrical current. So I think the punchline of this whole thing is that Luke has to restart the Jedi Order whether he wants to or not — because, as Tolkien would have known, the Force needs a gardener.
posted by gerryblog at 5:41 PM on December 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

That "40 Unforgivable Plot Holes" article is such clickbait trash from a person who apparently slept through two-thirds of the movie.
posted by Errant at 5:48 PM on December 23, 2015 [23 favorites]

The cynical view is consistent but it's not fun. Star Wars is fun and full of imperfections and plot holes and inconsistencies and hacky writing that every installment has always had, because it has other qualities that make up for that stuff. Hell, with very very few exceptions all of sci fi and fantasy is that way, all fiction is that way.

Star Wars was a breath of fresh air, a dizzying array of spectacle that blew people away with its rich world building and the fun story of a hero's journey.

Empire was an incredible growth from that original, a beautiful morphing of the fun spirit into a dark maturation for the story and its characters.

Everything since then a fast race to the narrative bottom as Lucas fought to project a vision that was unneeded and failed to connect as well as the original trilogy. Now there's TFA, which succeeds so very well at injecting glorious fun into the series with amazing new characters.

But it also does a sadly splendid job of aping the original Star Wars, of playing it safe and conservatively, hollowing out many of those fun points. In the end, it's just a product, a well made one to be sure, but its uncaring attitude for basic narrative sense irks some, myself included, and washes a lot of the fun right out what was a potentially great movie. A person could weep for how badly they squandered an excellent premise.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:04 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

A person could weep for how badly they squandered an excellent premise.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the star wars movies with a number >= 4
posted by flaterik at 7:25 PM on December 23, 2015

Nope, was talking about TFA.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:30 PM on December 23, 2015

Okay, so no, there is no way all the mystery and clues to Rey's backstory are the accidental work of hacks. You guys. Come on. So let's talk about who left her outside Barstow with her favorite stuffed pilot doll and how!

TIN HAT/FANFIC TIME

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So in the next movie, the "I am your father" equivalent is going to be a flashback sequence of SOMEONE fleeing the Jedi School massacre in the Millennium Falcon, with a little girl Rey clutching that doll tucked in the back, then making the arrangements to store the baby and the ship with Simon Pegg. Who are the candidates right now?

-- Luke and Jedi School gym teacher Max Von Sydow

-- Luke and Rey's Mom???

-- 15 year old Cousin Kyle, not yet a total heap of garbage, who panicked and stole the baby from Snope and is now chanting, "stop crying, stop crying" ostensibly at her while she sits in the co-pilot seat, something she has been begging the grownups in her life to let her do since she could talk but which isn't as exciting right now as she always dreamed it would be. It's very dark in orbit, and her clothes are still wet from the rain.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:34 PM on December 23, 2015 [20 favorites]

Well, I saw it for a second time today and I still loved it. I'm sorry I'm apparently not a discerning a Star Wars consumer, but I thought it was great and had a lot of fun.

(Also, Kylo Ren explicitly says "You need a teacher! I could be your teacher!" during the light saber duel).
posted by ChuraChura at 7:36 PM on December 23, 2015 [12 favorites]

If you have Spotify: Kylo Ren's playlist, Finn's playlist, Rey's playlist
posted by Errant at 7:44 PM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

Nope, was talking about TFA.

I know what you intended to talk about, but that phrase applied so much more strongly to the prequels than TFA that I had to comment.
posted by flaterik at 7:47 PM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

Saw this a second time today. Still good and enjoyable.

The Han/Kylo scene is still strong - watching this again, I can't tell if Kylo's tears are his lightside showing through, or him acting so he can lure Han in. There is definitely a face afterwards of him not feeling what he was hoping - probably some sort of release from the light side. I'm assuming he blames Han for his inadequacies as a Force user - Han is after all just some smuggler, not a descendant of Vader. He may have been associating his weakness due to because of his father's lineage or lack there of - Snoke probably selling him on the idea that by murdering his father he would silence the light side and become stronger. Kylo would then succeed where both Luke and Anakin/Vader failed: eliminating his opponents, even when they are family.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:14 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

So I posted a question about this in the Revenge of the Sith thread too, but I keep hearing that Clone Wars is super great and stuff, so my wife and I tried checking it out starting, as you do, with the first episode, and the Prequel Dialogue alone made it positively cringe city. Is there some sort of a safe rule of thumb about where to start watching where you can skip the parts that are really hard to watch, but not miss too terribly much of the stuff that matters to the plot?
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:44 PM on December 23, 2015

You could find a guide to chronological order, which splits up the not great first season. You could just straight up skip the first season too and come back later if you feel like it. Certain story arcs push the show from watchable to occasionally compelling and you could find a reduced viewing order guide that highlights five or six better episodes or arcs so you don't waste a bunch of time watching baby ackbar try to give a rousing enough speech to defeat the sharks or whatever.
posted by sandswipe at 10:10 PM on December 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

> I keep hearing that Clone Wars is super great

Wait, which Clone Wars? Genndy Tartakovsky's version that aired on Cartoon Network is what I always think of: actually aired between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, has awesome combat, and is about two hours total. It is pretty easy to find on youtube.

This nearly wordless episode with Mace Windu is still one of my favorite ones.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:44 PM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

Watched the Graham Norton episode with Carrie Fisher (and her dog), Daisy Ridley and John Boyega via YouTube yesterday. Recommended - lots of laughs.

Gary, the real star of TFA.
posted by Mezentian at 11:12 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Wait, which Clone Wars?

All of them.

so my wife and I tried checking it out starting, as you do, with the first episode, and the Prequel Dialogue alone made it positively cringe city.

As with Rebels (which is also great) the CGI Clone Wars starts.... not well (ugh... that movie with Snips and Stinky). There's probably a road map somewhere to which episodes to skip, but it's a must watch. They pretty much redeemed Jar Jar. And, Ashoka is awesome.

Genndy Tartakovsky's version is sublime.
posted by Mezentian at 11:15 PM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

so you don't waste a bunch of time watching baby ackbar try to give a rousing enough speech to defeat the sharks or whatever.

Ackbar gives the best Rousing Speeches (and trap warnings).

I can only hope Nein Numb gets a role in Rogue One.
posted by Mezentian at 11:16 PM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm curious if they are going to go the Zuko route with Ren/Ben and actually redeem him before the end of the story. It's one thing for Vader to have a deathbed conversion, but quite another to tackle the question of how to handle redemption of a living mass murderer.

Let's do this:

Aang=BB-8
Rey=Katara
Finn=Sokka
Ren=Zuko
Toph=?? (just rip off her character entirely and put her in the next movie and it would rule)
posted by Drinky Die at 12:22 AM on December 24, 2015 [9 favorites]

Gary, the real star of TFA.

I love how much Carrie is her usual late-life self, just not keen to Do Marketing, but game to play along, because why not. She's been acting a lot more recently in TV comedy and stuff, and her media appearances for the new movie are great, especially in the context of the mental health problems she's talked about so honestly in the past. It feels like she's found a way to make the system work for her, and to just be herself in the process. That is excellent.

The only thing I actually want for the next installments of the Expanded Disney Star Wars Universe is for Gary the dog to be transformed into an recognizable recurring alien character who has agency and importance in the ongoing story, even if it's only through references and easter eggs down through the years, because I think that would make Carrie laugh and smile, and would continue to pay her tribute even after her character leaves the stage.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:50 AM on December 24, 2015 [13 favorites]

Ren isn't Zuko; he's Azula. But all this A:TLA talk reminds me of my biggest issue with TFA. I am forever bitter about the way A:TLA's continuation comics and Korra sidelined Katara, and I saw the same thing happening in TFA-- these very dynamic, intense women with titanic personalities and political histories who should have given their children all the mommy issues in the world fading into the background to be supportive and concerned and blandly motherly while the kids have all their parent angst over their flaky but mostly inoffensive dads. Like, really??? People think the dominant parent would have been Aang??? Can you even imagine the fights between teenaged Adam Driver and Leia Organa??? I just cannot suspend my disbelief and accept that Leia or Katara raised the children their respective sequel canons tell me they did.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 1:52 AM on December 24, 2015 [7 favorites]

I love how much Carrie is her usual late-life self, just not keen to Do Marketing, but game to play along, because why not.

I had the chance to see her do Wishful Drinking a few years back and did not.
I'm a fucking idiot.

The only thing I actually want for the next installments of the Expanded Disney Star Wars Universe is for Gary the dog to be transformed into an recognizable recurring alien character who has agency and importance in the ongoing story,

In an age of QT-KT (or whatever), this will happen. It MUST happen.
posted by Mezentian at 2:31 AM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Mezentian with comment 1138 there.
posted by biffa at 2:54 AM on December 24, 2015 [9 favorites]

The Han/Kylo scene is still strong - watching this again, I can't tell if Kylo's tears are his lightside showing through, or him acting so he can lure Han in. There is definitely a face afterwards of him not feeling what he was hoping - probably some sort of release from the light side.

For completely different and unrelated reasons, I was reminded earlier today of this Princess Bride quote, which I think Adam Driver hits on wordlessly and which you are seeing:

"I have been in the revenge business so long, now that it's over, I don't know what to do with the rest of my life."
posted by Errant at 4:42 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

these very dynamic, intense women with titanic personalities and political histories who should have given their children all the mommy issues in the world fading into the background to be supportive and concerned and blandly motherly while the kids have all their parent angst over their flaky but mostly inoffensive dads.

I agree entirely with your point, which is not one that had previously occurred to me, but I feel like this would be quickly resolved if, in a future installment, after calling his father "Han Solo" for a whole movie, Kylo Ren calls Leia "Mother". Maybe that's because I see Ren's rage towards Solo as being towards a neglectful father; it's not that Han Solo was especially present in Ren's life, but that Ren wanted more than he got, which has nothing to do with relative strength of personality between parents and everything to do with Ren being a legendary manchild fuckboy as wiser MeFites have identified.
posted by Errant at 4:53 AM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't know what to do with the rest of my life."
He is Emo Ren.
posted by Mezentian at 4:54 AM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Thinking more about midi-chlorians. Try on this head-canon for size:

Midi-chlorians are real, but the Jedi Council had the causation backwards. The presence of midi-chlorians in large numbers doesn't cause a being to become strong in Force manipulation potential; instead, they're attracted to such beings. It's perfectly possible for someone to be strong in the Force but have a low midi-chlorian count, and the Council probably overlooked quite a few very promising padawans that way. Correlation, not causation, and not necessarily reliable correlation either.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:58 AM on December 24, 2015 [20 favorites]

An order predicated on a post hoc error aligns rigorously with the rest of the fictional science.
posted by Errant at 6:07 AM on December 24, 2015

Let's do this:

Aang=BB-8
Rey=Katara
Finn=Sokka
Ren=Zuko
Toph=?? (just rip off her character entirely and put her in the next movie and it would rule)

Oh dear lordy. Put Toph in the middle of a giant battle on Tattoine. I don't care what you have to do to make this happen.

Or let's just scrap the movies and do a series where Leia, Furiosa, and the Beifong sisters from Korra go around solving mysteries and liberating towns from biker gangs oh god I think I'm a fanfic person now
posted by middleclasstool at 6:24 AM on December 24, 2015 [12 favorites]

That "40 Unforgivable Plot Holes" article is such clickbait trash from a person who apparently slept through two-thirds of the movie.

Memory fails me, but I recall reading something recently from a former blog writer who said that clickbait articles get even more clicks if you include controversial or even incorrect points. People are far more likely to click and comment in order to correct the blogger.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:24 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

We are all fanfic persons now.
posted by Artw at 7:06 AM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think the one really "JJ Abrams is a shoddy director" hole in this one is the visual of the planets getting hit by the red ~~matter~~ beam. The problem is not that it doesn't make SF or canon sense, because who cares, but that it is totally visually incoherent and, lacking an explanation, the brain just rejects it. We've been conditioned to think about space a certain way, and it doesn't matter that someone could come up with a narrative explanation for it; it just looks "wrong", period. Not only that, but the film itself has depicted journeys through space that take time and suggest scope that the visual from the planet ignores. As a director you have to understand that you are painting a picture through time in the viewer's brain and you have to be very careful about undermining it.

For most people it's probably a minor thing but it drove me insane. I really like directors who carefully assemble films with deliberate shot selection and an eye towards pacing and time/scope suggestion. There are a few times this works in the film, but in general Abrams (who has far more visual flair than Lucas) just doesn't get this.

It's ironic because Lucas was such a fan of lifting from Kurosawa, who is maybe the best at this ever.

Anyway, I LOVED the cast and the energy of the film and I look forward to seeing what different directors and crews bring to the material.
posted by selfnoise at 7:10 AM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]

I should have realized the "40 Unforgivable Plot Holes" article wouldn't go over well. I thought it wasn't too bad once you got past the HuffPo house style and some of the mistakes the author made. Maybe there's a better article somewhere that critiques the plot?

jason_steakums is right: "The cynical view is consistent but it's not fun." I enjoyed the film very much. But if we're going to try to dissect the plot and reason about every detail, it's worth considering the possibility that the plot just doesn't make much sense.

We're all hoping there's some fantastic backstory that explains Rey's incredible mechanical competence, piloting abilities, ability to learn Jedi stuff on her own and linguistic skills. Against the blank slate of her entire past life. The basic Star Wars explanation is she's strong with The Force and it enables her to do great things. But her rapid learning of Force powers is inconsistent with previous films' description of the training required to be a Jedi. So we come up with theories. Maybe Kylo was a great unwitting trainer. Maybe she had training she's forgotten. Maybe the Force has Awakened and she's the one it's chosen. Or maybe Abrams and crew just wanted to write a good fun story with a kick ass lead and didn't worry too much about it being consistent with the fictional rules. That's OK too! Either way, we'll know in a year and a half.

There are other parts of the story that felt pretty thin to me too. Like Poe presumed dead, then just turning up at the end with little remark. Or Captain Phasma being a big bad-ass and then quickly caving in to drop the shields on the First Order's base and super megaweapon. I suspect both of those events weren't better explained because they wanted to keep the running length reasonable. While watching the film I didn't find these thin spots troubling, I enjoyed the movie in the moment. But now that we're talking about it in detail, well, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Still the story is a good heroic yarn and it's a really well made film. So huge success!
posted by Nelson at 7:30 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

The problem is not that it doesn't make SF or canon sense, because who cares, but that it is totally visually incoherent and, lacking an explanation, the brain just rejects it. We've been conditioned to think about space a certain way, and it doesn't matter that someone could come up with a narrative explanation for it; it just looks "wrong", period. Not only that, but the film itself has depicted journeys through space that take time and suggest scope that the visual from the planet ignores.

Honestly, it didn't bother me. I just assumed it was So Big and So Strong that it was visible from another planet in the system. I'm not disagreeing with you that it's impossible, but there are probably a lot of people out there like me who just assumed it was possible because Reasons.
posted by Mavri at 7:31 AM on December 24, 2015

That "40 Unforgivable Plot Holes" article is such clickbait trash from a person who apparently slept through two-thirds of the movie.

Nah, the "magic" of Star Wars just failed to envelope them, so all the plot holes stick out like a sore thumb. If you love the movie, any movie, then you really just don't care about that, even if when it's blatantly pointed out later by THAT friend. In fact, you might love the movie even more for defying logic, yet still making you fall in love with it.

Humans are weird.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:32 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]

Mostly I just get irritated that nobody knows what "plot hole" means anymore. Or "Mary sue", now, apparently.
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on December 24, 2015 [18 favorites]

I just assumed it was So Big and So Strong that it was visible from another planet

I guess this was my problem. Are they on another planet in that same system? I did not get that sense, which is why the weirdest part of that scene was actually seeing the planets.

I just totally fails the "where are we in respect to the action" test. But maybe I missed a visual explanation for that? I am going to see the movie again after Xmas so I'll check.
posted by selfnoise at 7:46 AM on December 24, 2015

"Droid, please!"

If I misheard and this line wasn't in the movie, I am ashamed of myself.
If this line WAS in the movie, I am ashamed for the writer.

That line and the bro-tastic backslapping in the TIE fighter seemed too . . . contemporary to fit into the film.
posted by Seamus at 7:48 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

That line and the bro-tastic backslapping in the TIE fighter seemed too . . . contemporary to fit into the film.

Dude, bros never go out style!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:57 AM on December 24, 2015

> The thing Kathleen Kennedy asked JJ Abrams that got him on board was "Who is Luke Skywalker?" which is what makes me think that Rey is NOT Luke's daughter.

The thing that makes me think Rey is not Luke's daughter is the fact that she does not believe he even is real. Her first line upon hearing that the map will lead to him is something along the lines of "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth!"

Look, my own father lives far away and is not the most emotionally accessible guy in the world, but I still believe he exists.

> I guess this was my problem. Are they on another planet in that same system? I did not get that sense, which is why the weirdest part of that scene was actually seeing the planets.

It is one of those visual shorthand things because casual moviegoers would be less impressed by the notion that the Republic capital in the nearby Hosnian system gets destroyed and 228 years later or something the light of the explosion reaches our heroes. There is a page about it on TVTropes, of course.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:58 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

"Abrams has given little girls like mine a tremendous and very special gift."

I can't tell you, gerryblog, how much of a gift this was ALSO to the boys of this world.
My son needed to see that. Needed to see it and recognized how fucking cool it was.
His best friend and fellow SW superfan is a girl and I think he may see things a bit through her eyes.
posted by Seamus at 7:58 AM on December 24, 2015 [25 favorites]

Yes, weird. This time around we had had the deranged speech, which was punctuated by the 'heil hitler' gesture. Before it was much more subtle, but Abrams turned the dial up from a 4 to an 8.

It looked like all the troopers raised their left arm with hands held loosely closed, which suggested either (a) a evocation of the action figures (seriously, I recall my buddy Joey Johnstone doing this precise move with our stormtroopers in 1977 while he solemnly intoned, "We all... SALUTE you, Lord Vader!") or possibly (b) that everyone has a question.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:48 AM on December 24, 2015 [10 favorites]

I so want to believe the "teen Ben saves tiny Rey and leaves her on Jakku" theory. But in the interrogation scene, she reaches into his mind... and finds nothing that makes her suspect this. Ben/Ren isn't exactly a model of self-control so I'd think, if it were true, it would be written in his mind in forty foot flaming letters OMG YOU'RE MY LITTLE SISTER or whatever?
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:59 AM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]

That's precisely the kind of plot logic I'm already learning not to expect from this iteration of Star Wars.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:04 AM on December 24, 2015

It looked like all the troopers raised their left arm with hands held loosely closed

I didn't even notice this, but in my head that totally sounds like their salute is a Vader Force choke which I really hope it is.

I guess this was my problem. Are they on another planet in that same system? I did not get that sense, which is why the weirdest part of that scene was actually seeing the planets.

The vagueness of "system" is an issue in ESB too, with the whole Hoth/Anoat system/"Lando system?" thing and their hyperdrive knocked out - maybe "system" can mean a system of a planet and its moons instead of just a solar system? That would make it a little more believable if the Starkiller took out Hosnian and its moons and Maz Kanata's planet was a different planet/moon in the solar system. Still weird just like it was in ESB, though.

I guess it would make sense, though, if you have your choice of all these solar systems in the galaxy you would prefer to colonize the ones where there are multiple habitable bodies very close together, just like our towns and cities on Earth tend to lie near water and resources and other towns and cities even though you technically could set up a town in the middle of nowhere.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:13 AM on December 24, 2015

Star Wars Galaxy has always been about a mile across, TBH. But Abbrams does seem less good at doing the hand waving required to stop you thinking about that.
posted by Artw at 9:19 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

DING! Order up, one large plate of beans with a side order beans:

How did the Millennium Falcon get from Hoth to Bespin without hyperdrive?

posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:38 AM on December 24, 2015

Thinking about this again, it just struck me just much of a genius Lucas is, and how reusable his "conceptual grammar" is. I don't think you can say, hey, popular workman-like director: Reshuffle unique elements from the Godfather, put out the result, and deeply affect millions of people.

Here, you can and get results. And you can also hand the pieces over to more adventurous directors, which they are doing, and some phenomenal shit just may happen.
posted by ignignokt at 10:13 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

The vagueness of "system" is an issue in ESB too,

Traditionally, as I linked upthread aways, Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale. I have fulminated on the blue in the past on how Prometheus seemed to think that a "system" was something that was characterized by mysterious spheres which are neither stars nor planets, and how Firefly fans themselves grew entire cosmologies out of what they imagine Joss Whedon said about the the setting in the TV show. I am sure that for many viewers, system, galaxy, and universe are all essentially synonyms and each denotes a volume that any spaceship from the space shuttle to the TARDIS can traverse in a matter of hours (or maybe days at worst).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:17 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Thinking about this again, it just struck me just much of a genius Lucas is, and how reusable his "conceptual grammar" is. I don't think you can say, hey, popular workman-like director: Reshuffle unique elements from the Godfather, put out the result, and deeply affect millions of people.

Eh, the genius here isn't Lucas's conceptual grammar, since the plot is a straight-up space version of the hero's journey a la Joseph Campbell, and the visual grammar he swiped from Kurosawa. Great artists steal.
posted by Andrhia at 10:30 AM on December 24, 2015

Well, no. This wouldn't be huge with a generic hero's journey and Seven Samurai cinematography. The Force, lightsabers, beepy droids, X-Wings, '70s-like computer grids, heavily Holst-influenced fanfares, scrolling intro text, and desert planets are critical to making TFA work. Lucas did not create each element from scratch, but he did build a cohesive and distinctive language with these elements.
posted by ignignokt at 10:42 AM on December 24, 2015 [17 favorites]

Just took my 5 year old to see it. In 5 Year Old Wisdom, he pointed out that that the reason Kylo could not Force pull the lightsaber out of the snow was because "bad guys can only push things away from them, but good guys know how to pull stuff to them like friends and lightsabers."

I didn't remind him that Ren pulled that officer flunkie across the floor to him because I thought my son is on to something. Ren completed his journey to the Dark Side by killing his father, so lost some of his Force ability. This is why he struggled to pull the saber.

My son will be directing the reboot of Episode 9 in 2047. He also ripped a horrible popcorn fart when Han died. So he knows how to ensure there will not be a dry eye in the theater.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:45 PM on December 24, 2015 [38 favorites]

If Harrison Ford is... what regarding Starwars - dismissive? uninterested? bemused? Is he different regarding Indiana Jones? Bladerunner?
Or is it that he thinks Star Wars, Indy, etc is great but just the SW fandom is weird/annoying?

Regarding the starkiller shots seen from the sky, that confirmed for me that there are systems in which a lot of populated planets share the same star (which makes sense), so my impression is that "system" means "a cluster of destinations that one would normally use hyperspace to get to", and this nicely included the previously suggested situation of different clusters of planets/moon around the same star being different systems even though they're the same star - a few minutes in hyperspace vs months in sublight, sublight isn't really a realistic option.

There is a perfectly workable logical structure, but I don't have much confidence the canon-writers are hewing to it rather than just making shit up. I hope they're not and I hope to gain confidence :)
posted by anonymisc at 12:57 PM on December 24, 2015

Ren's inability to pull the sabre - I interpreted that as neither Ren being weakened, nor Rey being more trained in the force than someone who is trained in the force, but as that damn stupid idea that the lightsabre is a magic sword with its own will and it prefers Rey, like two people calling the dog at the same time and the dog chooses.

I really really hope your (or some other) explanation is correct, because mine is infuriating. :)
posted by anonymisc at 1:03 PM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

I agree with you that Lightsaber as Stormbringer is a new thing to Star Wars, but given the sword in question has the psychic stank of thousands of dead on it, I'll allow it.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:12 PM on December 24, 2015 [6 favorites]

I liked the little vibrations on people and things being held in place by the Force, it's a nice little effect - it reminds me of Kylo's saber blade and I wonder if it's only Kylo that gets that effect, showing his use of the Force is just as rough as his saber construction?
posted by jason_steakums at 1:12 PM on December 24, 2015

I don't really have any issue with the lightsaber pulling scene; the film does a good job of establishing Ren as really powerful but kind of raw and undisciplined. In an injured state it just may not have occurred to him that Rey would be able to pull it. Also, Rey has been in his head which for Ren seems like it would be especially unsettling.
posted by selfnoise at 1:22 PM on December 24, 2015

Basically, I'm fine with anything stupid that Ren does in the film since he just seems like a fucking hot mess.
posted by selfnoise at 1:23 PM on December 24, 2015 [23 favorites]

> showing his use of the Force is just as rough as his saber construction?

Kylo is all brute force and angst, no subtlety. He can't coerce people to do things, he doesn't even think of it as being possible. Rey is able to (after two tries) get the storm trooper to do as she says (yes, yes, weaker minds are easily swayed by the force). But Kylo doesn't appear to even try that - he immediately goes for the "I'm going to rip this memory from your mind".

His entire character design is about projection of power, and through power there is control. His lightsabers cross guard makes sense when you see him use it burning Finn - he doesn't have the control to disarm an appointment so he makes his light saber something that allows for him to attack from a stalemate position usually. I wonder what powers or demonstrations that Snoke did to prove that how powerful Kylo could be.

And then you have someone like Rey, who is all about control. She has a regimented, if boring life, of stripping parts from ships, cleaning them, selling them, eating, and waiting. She has developed all the patience in the world, the thousands of scratch marks on the wall of her AT-AT home prove that. She disarmed Kylo (I believe shattering his light saber, it was quick but she somehow turned it off), she could have decapitated him, but didn't. She ended him as a threat. She learned about Control before she learned about Power, and that level of focus she already had with her made adapting to and learning the force come that much quicker (remember Kylo was paranoid that they find her immediately, the longer she has, the stronger she will get - he knows there is something up with how she is picking up the force so quickly).
posted by mrzarquon at 1:26 PM on December 24, 2015 [32 favorites]

I didn't read Rey winning the lightsaber pulling duel as being much more than that she knows that Ren is also pulling for it and compensating, whereas Ren doesn't know Rey is acting and so is thrown off-balance. Which is not me naysaying any of these other theories, I think they're really cool.
posted by Errant at 1:36 PM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

And the hair! Luke and Kylo Ren hair so wonderfully 70s and yet timeless at the same time.

I've seen this brought up elsewhere... But what about Poe? Not only is his hair incredibly 70s, his jacket is. My dad gave me a jacket years ago he bought in like 1977-8 that looks SO much like that one.

And seriously, dude's hair looks like Carl Sagan. He looks like the older brother on a 70s family sitcom.
posted by emptythought at 3:15 PM on December 24, 2015 [15 favorites]

Do people think it's a bit convenient that Arthur is the only one who can wield Excalibur, I wonder?
posted by tobascodagama at 3:31 PM on December 24, 2015 [14 favorites]

But the Lady of the Lake can use Excalibur too!
posted by Mezentian at 3:34 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]

FWIW this GoodReads list has Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy at the top of the heap. Those were written back in 1991 and are set 5 years after Return of the Jedi.

I've read these. They're good. Not like brilliant, but the Zahn stuff was some of the better EU.

When i was in middle school a 2nd hand book store near my house closed and i bought their ENTIRE scifi section. Filled a whole wall of my room. It included a ton of the EU novels. I think i even tracked down the other one or two in that trilogy i didn't have.

Surprisingly, most of them were pretty good. And even some of the cheesier ones had really interesting concepts in them. It's actually kind of sad that stuff isn't canon now(although i get why, especially because it could turn in to a HUGE Roddenberry box) but there's quite a bit i hope they pick through or mine, especially for the infinite line of spinoff movies they have planned.
posted by emptythought at 3:43 PM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Do people think it's a bit convenient that Arthur is the only one who can wield Excalibur, I wonder?

No, of course not. It's a bit silly.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:10 PM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on December 24, 2015 [24 favorites]

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from a Sith lord, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!
posted by coriolisdave at 5:23 PM on December 24, 2015 [13 favorites]

Help! I'm being (Savage) oppressed!
posted by wabbittwax at 5:47 PM on December 24, 2015 [10 favorites]

We are the Knights of Ren, and we demand ... a shrubbery!
posted by sobarel at 7:01 PM on December 24, 2015 [7 favorites]

Second viewing today. It did an emotional number on me this time. I guess I had to "let it in."
posted by entropicamericana at 7:11 PM on December 24, 2015 [5 favorites]

I think the lightsaber grab on its own would have come off better, like an instance of latent powers manifesting in a time of desperate need, without the mind trick preceeding it -- not only does it telegraph that Rey is already a Level 1 Jedi, it's one of those self-conscious "hey, I'm in a Star Wars movie, why don't I try doing a Star Wars thing" moments. It's like Finn's idea about using the Force that Han disabuses him of, only she really does it and it works.

I disagree.

I think the first time is easily explained as she could have seen before with people haggling at the market. Whose to say that there aren't force sensitive people out there who have realized they have the ability to do the mind trick but don't really understand why or the mechanics of it? Some people are INCREDIBLY good at say, playing darts, just naturally. Or pool. They just pick it up one day and try and immediately destroy everyone in their path even if they barely know the rules of the game. Some people are natural negotiators. What's to say someone who wasn't already quite confident, and therefor calm and just letting it flow, didn't mind trick someone one day and realize what they had done to some extent?

Especially since we're in to semi-EU territory now it definitely seems like it's not that weird to have a backstory of "someone minorly using the force who isn't a jedi or sith". What's to say Poe isn't a really good pilot because he's somewhat force sensitive, like Anakin with podracing?

And with the lightsaber grab, i immediately thought about it like static electricity in the air. Like having your hand near a huge plasma globe or being around a big tesla coil operating. It makes sense that if you're force sensitive you can feel someone else near you tapping in to the force and trying to make something happen. I didn't read it as much as "hah, it's a star wars thing!", but more that she felt him trying and decided to try herself... But with much clearer concentration than Ren.

Ren was injured, angry, and clearly not focusing entirely on anything he was doing. Rey was completely locked in from the moment she grabs the lightsaber.

I even saw it as it possibly being that Ren was more powerful, even significantly, than he was in that moment. But that he wasn't concentrating and definitely wasn't at 100%. I really doubt the Ren we saw in that scene could have stopped a blaster bolt in mid air. And it wouldn't surprise me if first-scene Ren could have grabbed the lightsaber.

I'm not saying "Rey prevailing was chance", more like how someone who has a good intuitive understanding of chess and will go on to be a very strong player can beat someone experienced and fairly strong if they have a good opening and the experienced player gets flustered or frustrated.

You could really see that look of "wait, they left this open? what if i..." "Holy shit it worked, i'm kicking ass now, it's ON" happen.

Ren was Anakin in the lava scene angry and got his shit fucked up for the same reason. And from everything we've been shown about the force, Rey could probably sense that and feel what he was trying to do. Two relatively force sensitive people fighting always seems to come down to reaction time and concentration. We've repeatedly been shown someone angry or not fully concentrating get bested by someone "weaker" when they're not bringing their A game in that sense.
posted by emptythought at 7:30 PM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]

Ren is also the only Jedi-like thing in the galaxy apart from Luke and Rey, and he's not really expecting Rey to match him. You see him face off against Fin and win handedly. That's probably his experience with most fights - Force attunement is that much of an advantage.

So he's injured, and he fights Rey. He's expecting to swat a fly, and gets knocked on his ass instead. Then, after the fight, we get a bit of exposition, which is that his training isn't complete. In typical Dark Side / Empire fashion, the hubris of underestimating the weak leads to the downfall.

I mean, it's not air tight, but I think the movie does a pretty honest job of making it clear why the stuff that happens happens.
posted by codacorolla at 7:50 PM on December 24, 2015 [14 favorites]

Do we know for sure he's ever fought anything that wasn't a computer console with that thing?
posted by Artw at 8:44 PM on December 24, 2015 [12 favorites]

I just want to say that I finally got in to see this today. I am 47 years old and I was just as mind boggled and blown away as I was at 8 when I saw the original Star Wars in '77.

I don't have the abiding hatred for JJ Abrams that many here have, which might help.

the theater was packed for a 2:50 PM showing. Everyone from kids the same age as I was that day 40 years ago, to silver haired grandparents, to the gaggle of CU undergrads that sat next to my husband and I. They excitedly made plans for another show as we were leaving, and were eagerly discussing nerd theories before they left the theater.... I'm betting that they were on their way to Dennys to rehash at length over eggs and coffee until 2AM, just like my friends and I used to do.

EVERYONE in the theater cheered when Han showed up. EVERYONE gasped and there was a universal "oh no" moment when he fell.

not a single phone screen or text buzz anywhere. the entire audience including the kids were utterly riveted. Some of the folks there were on their third or fourth viewing.

you tell me that's not magic.
posted by lonefrontranger at 8:54 PM on December 24, 2015 [21 favorites]

Do we know for sure he's ever fought anything that wasn't a computer console with that thing?

Obi-Wan didn't update any of the pedagogical methods when he stopped by in ghost visits.
posted by Gnatcho at 9:05 PM on December 24, 2015

I had the chance to see her do Wishful Drinking a few years back and did not.

I saw that show from the front row, answered some of Carrie's quiz questions about her famous family and won a plastic medallion that she hung around my neck. She gave me a peck on the cheek. I died.
posted by crossoverman at 9:39 PM on December 24, 2015 [25 favorites]

So, the husband and I saw this for the third time this afternoon. (I was totally not going to do the geeky multiple-viewing-in-the-first-week only apparently I have. Um.)

Gotta say, it improves on repeated viewings. Moments that on first viewing seemed a bit tired or phoning-it-in were deeper and more resonant on the second and third viewing. Writing Adam Driver's Kylo Ren off as "Darth Emo" is a mistake, I think. Also, Ford's performance is more nuanced than it seems at first watching.

Finn has got to get control over his tendency to throw away his weapon when running to the aid of a comrade, though. He did that several times. Points for heart, negative points for practicality.

And I still think using the arm wraps as ongoing "Rey" costume indicator is dumb. Maybe it made sense on Jakku, when presumably she was dressing in scavenged fabric and rags, but later? Harrumph.
posted by Lexica at 11:11 PM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]

[Spoilers]
One thing I liked was that it plugged a plot hole that always bugged me in Return of the Jedi. The Rebels are lured into a trap between the fully armed and operational Death Star 2 and the Imperial Fleet. "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers" we're told as they attack them anyway hoping to buy time for the shield to fall. So then after the shield falls and the Death Star is destroyed, what should happen is that the rebels are wiped out by the vastly superior Imperial Fleet. Instead we just cut to the victory celebrations.

So it makes much more sense if the final confrontation between Rebels and Empire is deferred to the Battle of Jakku. And it doesn't seem at all strange that the crashed Millennium Falcon is on Jakku: where else would it be? General Solo thought he'd given up smuggling at that point, there's no real reason for him to scour Jakku for the wreck.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:20 PM on December 24, 2015 [6 favorites]

It's taken me since Friday to catch up with this thread!

I acknowledge some of the flaws and nitpicks/fanwanks as they may be. No, it's not the near-perfect sui generis thing that Star Wars was in 1977. (I still remember the width my eyes opened to months before the release when some older kids in study hall dumped a Scholastic magazine article about the film on my desk, dismissively snorting that I would probably like it. It had the production still, among others, of the Stormtrooper atop a Bantha.) But it can't be -- it can't surprise with the wholly new (almost) idea of a lived-in space fantasy universe. You'll never see a lightsaber for the first time again. So it has to compensate in other ways.

I think it was very interesting to position the characters -- Finn and Rey in their own ways, and Kylo Ren in another -- as in-universe fans. That may have amped up the feeling for some of Mary Sue-ism, but I think it was an intriguing way to allow the audience to enter the story, where the whole backstory we all know was in progress. "It's all true!" Han says, as if welcoming them to the universe.

I also feel the movie had some necessary business to attend to. We needed the old and new casts together in the same story, or a large group of fans might not have trusted the handover, or considered it some other silo of canon (the way some of us are reluctant to acknowledge the prequels, so there is precedent). Obviously there are lots of ways it could have been done differently and lots of ways this complex web of necessities went astray. But on the whole, I think they got more right than they got wrong. (And no, I don't hate Abrams either, although I haven't seen all his product. I liked the Star Trek reboot, but hated Into Darkness, and worry about Beyond.) In the main, I think the story got the key elements of the saga, even if they needed to play a few of the same notes to make the harmony obvious.

Put it this way. I smiled big-time the moment Rey sledded down the dune. That said to me that they understood the scale of the story had to match the characters and their lived experiences. And then Rey was literally "living in" the wreckage of the previous stories. It said both that this was real, and that it was a link between the two eras -- and perhaps also warned us that things might be a little messed up. Yeah, that puts a bummer spin on the end of the stories we knew in ROTJ, but the stakes needed to be big enough this time or why have a story? You can talk about your Hero's Journey and all that, but for this property there's also an element of the audience's journey -- we're sort of beckoned to come in and play, imagine ourselves in it, just as all those flippin' toys allowed generations, now to do already.

You know, one of the things I used to say is that fans should look at the early 70s draft story-scripts, the ones that called him Starkiller and included sprawling epic elements, some of which would turn up in the sequels and prequels. I thought it showed that Lucas knew how to cut his story down to size, in the very practical way that producers and studios need to determine a budget and running time and such. Examined this way, Star Wars (ANH) is near-perfect in structure. It's efficient and at times brilliant in how it moves the story along while balancing multiple characters (like a second lead!) and simultaneous action. And yet the first movie has flaws, like often wooden dialog, inconsistent accents, and barely adequate acting by Hamill (never mistaken for a talented Thespian). And you know, as much as I love the film itself, I often find myself wanting to swat Luke. So it's possible for a visibly flawed movie to still be great, enduring entertainment, and we all know it.

TFA, though, has despite its flaws, crackling dialog all around, and terrific performances from nearly everyone. It has heart through and through, and Ridley in particular grabs the audience and drags them with her. For a debut, it's stunning, and on the luck bell curve is like if everyone in the original cast were Harrison Ford, future box office superstar. Sure, I can't guarantee it, but nobody's showing up for a paycheck here, and nobody's a bit lost but game anyway. They're all on board.

I can see a lot of ways this could have failed to work, but they compensated for them or overcame them. And I salute that.
posted by dhartung at 11:31 PM on December 24, 2015 [25 favorites]

I liked the Star Wars-y parts.
posted by mazola at 11:41 PM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

My immediate assessment post-viewing was "That was more Star Wars than all of the prequels put together, and it may have been more Star Wars than any other single one of the films." I feel like the representative diversity of the protagonists is a huge, huge thing to have in a true Star Wars trilogy. (I don't expect it, but I think there is a unique cultural opportunity here for them to stick the landing and conclude a classic Finn/Rey/Poe Star Wars love triangle with a Finn/Poe relationship. With [certain cartoons I don't want to spoil] doing what they have, I think the time is right for it.)
posted by NMcCoy at 1:20 AM on December 25, 2015 [3 favorites]

Guys, Rey is totally Luke's daughter. When she connects with the Force for the first time, the soundtrack plays Luke's leitmotif.

I was wondering about this by the end of the film, thanks to the heavy telegraphing folks mentioned. However, the use of Luke's leitmotif could be signaling not her past but her future (in a mentor/student relationship where Yoda:YoungLuke::OldLuke:Rey, a scenario I imagine will be a big part of the second movie). That future relationship may be just beginning here, as Luke senses the Force awakening in her.

Of course, if she was Luke's daughter, it would be a more apropos repetition of original trilogy themes, like surprise magic parents.
posted by a sourceless light at 5:09 AM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm for Poe/Finn, if not just for the hotness, but because I don't want Rey to have to end up with a guy to legitimise her character growth. Luke didn't have to end up with anyone, though obviously he only had the choice of his sister or Mon Mothma.
posted by crossoverman at 5:10 AM on December 25, 2015 [14 favorites]

On reflection my view of Rey, thanks greatly to a few things I've read here, goes like this. She's had the start of jedi training before everything went a bit pear shaped, at which point they did some jedi mind trick, removed her memory and shipped her off far away from the action. So, that puts her as relearning rather than discovering, hence the quick study.

Now they need someone to keep an eye on her, that would be the junk dealer. He's guaranteed to see her on a pretty much daily basis, can ensure she's stuck with a quiet, exhausting life to keep her out of trouble, and would also explain why the second he sees that droid he has an oh balls moment and needs to get it out of her hands as quickly as possible. And when the situation goes completely pear shaped, perhaps he contacts someone to say she's hijacked the Falcon, hopped off into the wider galaxy and they might like to go and find her.

I'm just forced to go see it again to see if this makes sense and who is giving who sidelong glances that suggest they know more than they're saying. I might even have to see it another couple of times.

More generally, that was a lovely movie. Plot holes, silliness and any rough edges aside, I hadn't realised how much I wanted to see proper Star Wars in the cinema again. And if the above turns out to be complete rubbish I am still happy I'm sitting here being excited to try and work it all out.
posted by SometimeNextMonth at 5:15 AM on December 25, 2015 [8 favorites]

and would also explain why the second he sees that droid he has an oh balls moment and needs to get it out of her hands as quickly as possible.

The Empire, er First Order, put the word out that they were looking for the droid, hence his desire to get it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:40 AM on December 25, 2015

Luke didn't have to end up with anyone, though obviously he only had the choice of his sister or Mon Mothma.

Oh, come on! Canonically you are overlooking Toryn "Stand by, ion control... fire!" Farr. The partition of Wookieepedia into Canon (for actual canon) and Legends (for all the cruft that the Expanded Universe acquired over the decades) means that all her numerous appearances elsewhere besides that one shot* are no longer to be treated as gospel.

One of the less dazzling bits of Star Wars fandom -- and this will be no surprise to some of you -- was(is) the extrapolation of the culture of any character to be exactly what that character does onscreen. Everyone we see is a perfect exemplar of his or her or its homeworld. You could call it the Star Wars Syllogism: Greedo is a Rodian. Greedo is a bounty hunter. Therefore all Rodians are bounty hunters QED. If the people who wrote Star Wars fiction were writing contemporary media tie-in novels, we would have, I dunno, Austin Powers novels where we learn that all Scottish people are grossly obese and vulgar and express their desire to eat babies, while all Dutch people are renowned for minor autocannibalism and their fondess for roller skating.

Anyway, suffice it to say that we have swept away a thousand stories about how Toryn Farr comes from a world where the inhabitants are known for their communication skills and enunciation. Not to worry, though -- they are likely thirty short stories up online already with competing explanations for Threepio's red arm.

*Literally.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:53 AM on December 25, 2015 [10 favorites]

On reflection my view of Rey, thanks greatly to a few things I've read here, goes like this. She's had the start of jedi training before everything went a bit pear shaped, at which point they did some jedi mind trick...

I kind of like this idea. The shoved-under-the-table prequels show that training starts pretty early, so Young Rey could well be a veteran of several years, which would explain a lot.

I'm just forced to go see it again to see if this makes sense and who is giving who sidelong glances that suggest they know more than they're saying. I might even have to see it another couple of times.

When will you go see it again?

posted by SometimeNextMonth at 8:15 AM

Wait, never mind.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:57 AM on December 25, 2015 [4 favorites]

oh and they telegraphed the "Rey-is-Luke's-child" so heavily that, nope, that's a red herring. If anything based on a gut feeling and, I don't know, dumb stuff like her diction and accent matches to a T, imma say she's a lost Kenobi.

if anyone's a secret Skywalker, and I kind of doubt it, I'd put $10 on it being Poe.
posted by lonefrontranger at 8:12 AM on December 25, 2015

If Rey trained at Skywalker's School for Gifted Youngsters, wouldn't she have been training alongside Ben Solo / Kylo Ren? Wouldn't he recognize her?

Meanwhile, this video game soundtrack has Ren calling Rey "cousin". Or maybe he's just saying "curses". Shame on the voice actor for poor diction.
posted by Nelson at 8:35 AM on December 25, 2015

Nelson according to Wookiepedia, Ren is ~30(ish) years old as of the events of VII and Rey is late teens-ish. So conceivably she would have been so young that no, neither would easily recognize the other, although in the movie he does acknowledge her, so... idk.
posted by lonefrontranger at 8:44 AM on December 25, 2015 [2 favorites]

How long are we being asked to wait for Episode VIII: Irresistible Force?
posted by wabbittwax at 9:06 AM on December 25, 2015

March 26th 2017.

December 16 2016 will see release of "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story" which is a spinoff set during the Episode 4 (I think?) timeline. It has Donnie Yen and Mads Mikkelsen and therefore cannot be anything less than tremendous.

Supposedly there will be another spinoff between 8 and 9 but I seem to remember there were some rumors that it was in limbo. I think it was a Boba Fett movie but they lost the director?
posted by selfnoise at 9:25 AM on December 25, 2015

I mean just look at this Rogue One still. Huuurrrrrrggg
posted by selfnoise at 9:28 AM on December 25, 2015 [3 favorites]

Just saw it again. You know, Snoak looks like a very old Noghri. And that dent in his head looks like it's from a lightsaber.
posted by ignignokt at 10:06 AM on December 25, 2015

She doesn't need her hand held and she's good without this.

I can't be the only one who noticed that Rey took to blasters way faster than she took to the lightsaber. In Rey's hands, the blaster was anything but clumsy and random.

Of course, it's surely not a coincidence that said blaster was shooting red bolts, either.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:52 AM on December 25, 2015

Saw it yesterday and was very pleased - the one thing that was jarring was that Carrie Fisher wasn't using the British accent as Leia, which threw me.
posted by mogget at 11:05 AM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

??

I think the most recent time she did that was when she declared that she should have recognized Governor Tarkin's foul stench when she was brought on board.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:09 AM on December 25, 2015 [7 favorites]

I kinda love that the actress who plays Rey is named Ridley. Maz read as straight up alien Edna Mode.
And I agree with the comment way up thread about Kylo Ren's acne, which I thought was to make Adam Driver look younger. His hair, however was styled to be reminiscent of the Boston Marathon bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.
posted by carmicha at 11:11 AM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile, this video game soundtrack has Ren calling Rey "cousin". Or maybe he's just saying "curses". Shame on the voice actor for poor diction.

I saw mention that the captioning unequivocally says "curses"
posted by phearlez at 11:13 AM on December 25, 2015

There was a Millennium Falcon under the tree this morning. It came with a Chewie, a Fin, and a BB8. After getting over the excitement of owning another BB8, my son looked at the other figures and asked "where is the girl? This is her ship!"

Dude has a point.

So I guess I need to track down a Rey on Boxing Day.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:15 AM on December 25, 2015 [28 favorites]

The idea that someone at Disney Interactive/Avalanche knows the secret behind Rey's parents is hilarious to me.
posted by selfnoise at 11:39 AM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

I wonder why Chewie didn't become pilot. It's not like the hairy nubile brother isn't intelligent.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:43 AM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

The phrase "hairy nubile brother" sounds like it came directly from slash.

So, you know, link please.
posted by duffell at 11:45 AM on December 25, 2015 [4 favorites]

I think it was a Boba Fett movie but they lost the director?

The presumed Boba Fett project is way out on the calendar around 2020, and Josh Trank did separate from that. But the "young Han Solo" movie has a May 25, 2018 release date and will be directed by the LEGO Movie guys, Phil Lord and Chris Miller, from a script by Lawrence and Jon Kasdan.

Meanwhile, today TFA passed $900M in global cume without having opened in China yet. Brandon, your prediction may come true.
posted by dhartung at 11:52 AM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

Have we reached the part of the thread where we talk about the animated gifs we're looking forward to?

OK COOL I'LL START

Kylo Ren lightsaber-slashing his computer consoles (handy for expressing work-related stress)
"It's true. All of it."
C-3PO interrupting Han & Leia's reunion
Basically everything BB-8 does

posted by duffell at 11:53 AM on December 25, 2015 [11 favorites]

5. Stormtroopers noping back up the hallway. Kylo Ren can be replaced with pretty much anything.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:57 AM on December 25, 2015 [22 favorites]

6. Finn and Rey taken aback by exploding crop jumper. Can be preceded by anything Donald Trump says, for example.
posted by dhartung at 12:02 PM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

Brandon, your prediction may come true.

Disney will probably make back the purchase price of the Franchise from this movie alone. It's like they're shitting the paper user to print money.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:03 PM on December 25, 2015 [2 favorites]

In retrospect, the terribleness of the prequels created a pent up demand for anything close to the original Star Wars.

With their plans to make a Star Wars movie a year (new Christmas tradition), Disney will basically own us all in a few years.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:09 PM on December 25, 2015 [5 favorites]

Back up plan for if the summer superhero crop fails.
posted by Artw at 12:31 PM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

(I'm actually kind of curious to see what all the Battke Beyond the Stars style cash-ins are going to be.)
posted by Artw at 12:36 PM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is it my imagination or is Luke wearing a white version his tunic from ROTJ under his robes at the end?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:09 PM on December 25, 2015

Also, I noticed Finn thew away his gun twice while chasing after Rey: once on Takodana when Kylo was carrying Rey into his shuttle and he did it on Starkiller base when he ran to her side after Kylo hucked her into a tree.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:18 PM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

(I'm actually kind of curious to see what all the Battke Beyond the Stars style cash-ins are going to be.)

Checked The Asylum website... nothing there, just a knock off of The Martian.

But I'm going to guess the TFA mockbuster it will involve space sharks.
posted by Mezentian at 1:59 PM on December 25, 2015

With frickin' laser swords on their head?
posted by entropicamericana at 2:18 PM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think the real question is, who do we cast as Stella Star?
posted by Mezentian at 2:27 PM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm curious about when they dip into the Old Republic stuff and what design decisions they make to indicate it's a lot earlier in the slow-moving visual universe of Star Wars.
posted by Gnatcho at 3:21 PM on December 25, 2015

As requested: NOPE.
posted by Lexica at 5:56 PM on December 25, 2015 [11 favorites]

Lol that GIF's source. God bless the cam pirates. You can hardly see the Uzbeki subtitles!
posted by Nelson at 6:44 PM on December 25, 2015 [2 favorites]

- Stormtroopers are patrolling down the hall. Kylo Ren throws a tantrum and starts slashing up the place. Stormtroopers say "nope" and go back the way they came.

Ok, this is in reply to something that was posted WAY upthread, but I'm so glad that they decided to include Tag and Bink.
posted by radwolf76 at 3:05 AM on December 26, 2015 [4 favorites]

Of all the returning characters in this movie, I think Chewbacca was my fave. Do wookiees get more quietly sarcastic with age?
posted by duffell at 6:40 AM on December 26, 2015 [9 favorites]

I think that Leia discarded the British accent in a show of support for newcomer Finn being forced to talk like an American. Why Rey was exempted I am not sure -- heck, the Space Scots got to speak normally.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:31 AM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

The Best ‘Star Wars: The Force Awakens’ Fan Art
posted by Artw at 7:34 AM on December 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

I just wanted to chime in with one observation: I've always thought that the perfect Harrison Ford line read comes not from a Star Wars or Indiana Jones movie, but from "Six Days and Seven Nights". He and Anne Heche have crashed a plane on this island and one of the wheels has broken off. She asks him if there's a way to reattach it, and he replies incredulously, "Oh sure, we can just... glue it on."

I saw the new Star Wars movie two days ago, but it didn't occur to me until just now that he pretty much has the same attitude when he says "That's not how the Force works!", and that made me laugh out loud to hear and see again.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 7:39 AM on December 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

Fanfare: You can hardly see the Uzbeki subtitles!
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:48 AM on December 26, 2015 [7 favorites]

I think the biggest accomplishment in this film was that it was legitimately funny in several places. The whole theater laughed. This wasn't stupid prequel cartoon humor designed for babies, these were actual goddamn jokes that played off strong characters, with proper timing and tonal placement within the scene. It made you remember that Star Wars didn't always take itself so seriously. The original trilogy had a lot of these moments where the seriousness of the space opera fades and you laugh at Threepio being reassembled by Chewie. It was that humor, almost poking fun at itself, that made it possible for us to accept the seriousness of Jedi and destiny and so on. A little bit of metafictional humor to help the medicine go down.
posted by deathpanels at 8:21 AM on December 26, 2015 [27 favorites]

Wow, I can't believe I finally found the bottom of this thread.

* While I can't think of any specifically quotable lines in this one after the fact (no "scruffy looking nerf herder" stuff), it's the expressions that really cracked me up in a lot of places.
* I have come to the conclusion that one of the powers of the Force is the ability to fly anything you set your butt into because the Force helps you figure out machinery. That's just how it is.
* I am disappointed that Rey isn't Han and Leia's kid, especially since she looks just like Leia, and kinda wish there would be some of that fanwank that people have mentioned to pull that off. I am reasonably assuming she's Luke's until further notice, since this series is generally about the Skywalker/Organa/Solo family.
* Mark Hamill barely being in the movie and having no lines = LOL
* RIP Han (sigh). After it happened I was bummed and then thought, "Yeah, but Harrison Ford probably wanted to quit and they were stuck." But if they kill Leia I WILL FUCKING RIOT. DON'T YOU DARE TAKE AWAY MY CARRIE FISHER.
* I am glad I've only read a little bit of "Carrie Fisher is not the 18-year-old hotness" whining so far, rather than the oceans of hate I was expecting these days.
* You know how Jedi were supposed to be celibate? I'm wondering if there was a reason for that beyond douchiness--like, for example, if you have a bunch of Force- sensitive family members, that has different effects on people. For example, being able to figure out your Jedi mind tricks easier when you pull them on your cousin. (That was kinda really cool, actually.)
* Like the new folks so very much, I look forward to seeing more of Poe and hopefully all three of them hanging around at some point. And Finn trying to get up the nerve to ask Rey out, apparently.
* More Maz, please. Also apparently she has mad salvage skills to dig up that lightsaber?
* Definitely more Luke and Leia in the next one, please. Leia could use more to do and some snark.
* That sure was an amazing coincidence for Han and Chewie to find the Falcon.
* I assume Chewie owns the ship at this point, maybe he's just being nice to let Rey pilot?
* Regarding the Leia/Rey hug: I just looked at Rey's face and it was clearly all "Oh god, I'm gonna have to tell her her husband is dead DISTRESS DISTRESS DISTRESS" and I figured Leia was just...you know, really nice about that sort of thing. Didn't even notice about Chewie, sadly.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:37 AM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Has anyone found the Hidden Mickey in the film? Disney employees have a tradition of hiding a Mickey Mouse silhouette in Disney stuff, as a sort of easter egg. It seems likely there'd be one in TFA. This Redditor says the food portion Rey gets is shaped like Mickey, so maybe that's it? Oddly, there's a Hidden Mickey in Empire Strikes Back despite that not being a Disney production.

(I came to wonder about this after reading The Economist's excellent article on Disney's business strategy. Discusses Lucasfilm, Pixar, and Marvel in a grand strategy to own a bunch of strong storytelling. "In remodelling itself to prize content over the means to distribute it, Disney has become the envy of the industry.")
posted by Nelson at 9:13 AM on December 26, 2015

Another Rey trait for consideration re her parentage and/or early life experiences and education: she speaks both Droid and Wookie languages fluently.
posted by carmicha at 9:19 AM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

A couple more things that occurred to me on second viewing:

– Yeah, it's a Star Wars movie, but man, there's gonna be some serious consequences for your planet if you are rapidly reducing the mass of the star you're orbiting around!

– I think Maz is a Force adept. She's able to figure out who else is strong with the Force and seems to be able to intuit inner feelings at a level that is at the boundary of just being really good with people and magic. In the EU, there were a lot of Force users outside the Jedi and Sith organizations. I think Darth Maul is the son of a Dark Side witch. Like prize bull octorok, I hope to see them in the movies.

Further, I think originally, there was this idea that the Light Side was about a more subtle use of the Force. Like aiding you in piloting a ship through treacherous situations, as Luke did in the original movie and Rey may have done with the Falcon in the trenches of Jakku. Or guiding a lightsaber, like Rey did with it after the stalemate moment in her duel. Or just knowing and sensing, like Yoda and Obi-Wan mostly did. Instead of using the Force to, say, shoot purple death lightning at people and crush their body parts.

So, it's plausible that you can be so in tune with the Light Side of the Force that you never even use telekinesis or hypnosis. Maybe you have such a good sense of the way people are and the way things are going to go over the long run that you can just talk to critical people at critical moments to set desired future events in motion. Kind of like Yoda in the Dagobah days.

Maybe if you really, really become at one with the Force, you don't even have desired outcomes. You become totally OK with whatever is going to happen. I guess if you go that far you it's probably time to lose your corporeal body and perhaps even your sense of self.

– That one Stormtrooper that fought Finn with his stupid technostaff literally threw away his blaster when he saw Finn had a lightsaber. He is the opposite of Indiana Jones against that whirling scimitar guy. If I were Captain Phasma, after that incident, I would have all technostaves confiscated and destroyed.

– Those two guys that were going to take Finn to the outer rim seemed really cool. Like, blue collar heads-down guys that don't want to get in adventures, but adventures happening to you is part of their space transit business. It was a long enough movie as it was, but I wish Finn had gone with them for a little while before turning back to the main quest. Also, I was that super cool water-drinking space elephant was somehow involved.
posted by ignignokt at 10:17 AM on December 26, 2015 [6 favorites]

The should do a spin-off that is basically Ace Trucking Company.
posted by Artw at 10:21 AM on December 26, 2015 [6 favorites]

You know how Jedi were supposed to be celibate? I'm wondering if there was a reason for that beyond douchiness--like, for example, if you have a bunch of Force- sensitive family members, that has different effects on people. For example, being able to figure out your Jedi mind tricks easier when you pull them on your cousin. (That was kinda really cool, actually.)

Jedi were originally meant to be sort of unstoppable impartial forces of law and justice in a massive, unruly galaxy. Having a child would make you far less impartial, give your enemies leverage over you, and cloud your emotions.
posted by codacorolla at 10:22 AM on December 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

Force is genetic/hereditary + Jedi are celibate = wtf?
posted by mazola at 10:33 AM on December 26, 2015 [5 favorites]

Stale midichlorians.
posted by Artw at 10:35 AM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Force is genetic/hereditary + Jedi are celibate = wtf?

Answer.
posted by duffell at 10:43 AM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Another observation. If these action figures aren't retailer exclusive to Target, someone in the marketing department needs to be force choked.
posted by radwolf76 at 11:04 AM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Are Jedi supposed to be celibate or just unmarried?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:36 AM on December 26, 2015

Right now the only canon is movies 4-7, so jedi celibacy might not be a thing.
Are 1-3 still considered canon also?
posted by anonymisc at 11:43 AM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yeah, most of the finnicky aspects of the Jedi are EU (which is completely gone) or prequels, which are supposedly being largely ignored. The Jedi cannot form romantic attachments, so I suppose you could have mechanical, unemotional sex for the purpose of relieving stress, but otherwise you're meant to maintain a general compassion and love of all living things, but not specific attachments to individuals.
posted by codacorolla at 11:48 AM on December 26, 2015

Clone Wars Obi Wan had a Mandalorian girlfriend who he broke off with because they were getting too close, IIRC.
posted by Artw at 12:11 PM on December 26, 2015

It's not you baby, it's the force.
posted by numaner at 12:30 PM on December 26, 2015 [5 favorites]

Are 1-3 still considered canon also?

Not in my head, they're not.
posted by entropicamericana at 12:46 PM on December 26, 2015 [8 favorites]

At some point Lucas decided Jedi were monks instead of knights. It was a bad decision.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:58 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing that one jogged back in the new movies.
posted by codacorolla at 1:44 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Are 1-3 still considered canon also?

I am pretty proud of myself as earlier in this thread someone said Rey was easily the best female character in the SW universe, and my first thought was 'Well, there have only been two!" it took me a second visit to remember the prequels.
posted by biffa at 1:55 PM on December 26, 2015

My understanding of current canon is that it includes all of the movies, and Clone Wars and Rebels for tv shows.
posted by drezdn at 1:56 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, yeah, but I'm pretty sure that if Abrams decides Mace Windu is a wookie then *poof*, he's a wookie, but he wouldn't play the same trick with the originals.
posted by Artw at 1:59 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

"Face me, cousin" - the dark truth about Rey's parentage!
posted by Mezentian at 2:50 PM on December 26, 2015

Hopefully, they'll reboot 1-3!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:51 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Nobody really believes that Anakin Skywalker built C-3PO, right? It's obviously just a metaphor.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:53 PM on December 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

Hopefully, they'll reboot 1-3!

Nobody give them ideas.
They're already making too many films.
posted by Mezentian at 3:03 PM on December 26, 2015

On a second viewing, a question about Ren on the bridge: are his words addressed not to his father, but to the spirit of his grandfather? He puts down the mask and talks about knowing what he has to do, and asking for the strength to do it--"it" being the murder that will shut out the light in him. Talking seems secondary to acting for Ren; Han makes the fatal mistake of trying to talk his way out of the situation, even as he's going for the weapon (and wow, does that hurt after the earlier fun of asserting that he'll talk his way out of the dual raiding parties, just like he always does). The scene resonated differently with me this time. But I cried, again, and walked out of the theater with tears running down my face. "Escape now, hug later" may be my favorite line--ever the pragmatist, right to the end. Maybe what Ren saw was that, rather than a father's love?
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:08 PM on December 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

If the death planet charges up by sucking dry the star your planet is orbiting around, isn't the whole blasting-your-planet-to-hell step a bit superfluous?
posted by klarck at 3:10 PM on December 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

Why Rey was exempted I am not sure

Because Rey is a Kenobi. I'm going to keep saying this until Episode VIII: Kenobi, Rey Kenobi is released.
posted by crossoverman at 3:24 PM on December 26, 2015 [8 favorites]

Man I'm having trouble keeping up with this thread. Mrs. Fleebnork and I are going to see it again on Monday. Looking forward to getting a second impression.
posted by Fleebnork at 3:32 PM on December 26, 2015

Everything we know about Supreme Leader Snoke
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:37 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Seems convincing.
posted by Mezentian at 3:41 PM on December 26, 2015

Well, aside from the fact he doesn't have the extended face and lack of nose of a Muun, but I assume there could be a million handwaves for that.
posted by Mezentian at 3:50 PM on December 26, 2015

That sure was an amazing coincidence for Han and Chewie to find the Falcon.

Han mention that when they're on their way into Maz Kanata's place: "Do you think it was luck that Chewie and I found the Falcon? If we can find it on our scanners, the First Order's not far behind."
posted by effbot at 3:51 PM on December 26, 2015 [6 favorites]

Everything we know about Supreme Leader Snoke

He's been the subject of an edit war over at Wookiepedia since the movie came out. Almost so I feel sorry for him, but his name is really stupid so I won't.
posted by effbot at 3:56 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

If we can't trust Wookiepedia....
posted by Mezentian at 4:02 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

On a second viewing, a question about Ren on the bridge: are his words addressed not to his father, but to the spirit of his grandfather?

I dunno, Ren seemed pretty focused on his hatred for his dad at that moment and saying stuff to draw Han closer.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:03 PM on December 26, 2015

in the novelization of TFA, the physics and mechanics of the Starkiller base are more fully fleshed out. For starters it's charged using "dark matter" (this is a real thing that we know likely exists) and not the sun. There's a bunch of exposition regarding the physics of containment and how the weapon fires that's basically what emptythought theorized.

So the sun charging was something added by the movie, likely because of the fact that dark matter, despite making up a significant portion of the mass of the universe, is so difficult to detect that despite having some evidence that it does exist, it's all extremely sketchy evidence.

tl;dr: shit's not merely invisible it's completely undetectable by 99.999% of current technology.

so despite being grounded in surprisingly decent science, dark matter doesn't make for very good cinematic drama, let alone impactful lighting at a critical emotional juncture.

there was also a pretty involved discussion of how the weapon fires; it's basically shaped by the planetary magnetosphere (discussed as being extremely strong) - the beam is focused "phantom energy" that accelerates exponentially into a powerful hyperdrive/warp bubble and punches a localized "Big Rip" through space time (again, emptythought was totes onto something with their theories) and is so powerful that it creates what they called a "pocket nova" upon impact with anything sufficiently massive (so a planet) that it wipes out the entire system and anything else within several AUs, same as for reals happens when a system's sun goes nova.

also the post impact visual described in the book was merely a very brilliant star, like a supernova, that yes, was visible from Maz's place during daylight, but only AFTER the news of the obliteration of the Hosnian system came down over the comm (so basically the galactic equivalent of CNN or Twitter?) thus folks ran outside to gawk in horror.

so I just got through like four pages of tl;dr exposition of legit reasonable sci-fi level theoretical physics of how such a weapon would exist or work, which we ALL probably realize (prequels much?) would be sufficient to bring any self respecting space opera to a grinding halt, let alone during the climax of the third act?

so basically I'm good with JJ kinda handwaving all that BS and deciding to use visuals of them sucking up the sun, creating a massive unholy light beam, then a ground effect that kinda resembled the Columbia disaster.

it's movie visual shorthand for "some really bad shit went down".
posted by lonefrontranger at 4:12 PM on December 26, 2015 [8 favorites]

They're already making too many films.

Eh, their Marvel arm is doing 2-3 movies a year, so the Star Wars franchise is pretty tame with the goal of one film a year. Though of course that number could grow if things go well. And why not, there's a rich universe there to explore, the potential is very good for half way decent stories that make a good profit.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:18 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

And why not, there's a rich universe there to explore, the potential is very good for half way decent stories

The same could be said of the EU, or New Canon.
For every Rebels there's a hundred Planet Of Twilights or Truce at Bakura.

I just want my Star Wars to be mostly a once in a generation thing.

(And, as much as I love Marvel's films and TV, it's starting to feel like a chore to a lot of people I know).
posted by Mezentian at 4:48 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

(Of course, I am sitting here in a Kylo Ren T-shirt I was given for Christmas, about to go and watch Return of the Jedi.... so.... maybe I am not in the best place to argue about the power of commerce over art.)
posted by Mezentian at 4:50 PM on December 26, 2015 [5 favorites]

let's ignore the part where the light from the impact would arguably take some number of years to reach Maz's place plus I probably meant second act not third BUT ANYWAY

grumble grumble need to not write novel length comments on the damned phone...
posted by lonefrontranger at 4:50 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

I just want my Star Wars to be mostly a once in a generation thing.

I guess I have the opposite reaction. This film was in a tough place: it had to provide nostalgic bridging characters from the original series, jumpstart a group of entirely new characters for new adventures, AND reassure a shell-shocked audience that yes, Bad George Lucas was really, truly gone. So we have what we ended up with; a really fun film crammed with characters, action and OT references, and it really just has too much crap in it and is trying to serve too many masters. It's a ton of fun! But Episode 4, by contrast, has the benefit of starting from a beautiful blank page.

I think Disney should make plenty of Star Wars movies, hopefully good ones, and hopefully we'll get to a point where there isn't such intense pressure on a single film. I think the films will be able to have more adventurous storytelling and filmmaking choices at that point and we might start to see some really exciting stuff.
posted by selfnoise at 5:07 PM on December 26, 2015 [11 favorites]

I don't think Rey was witness to the Jedi school tragedy:
- if she was part of the School for Jedis she would be a default believer and already be familiar with the power of the Force in her. She is clearly surprised by the appearance of her powers.

I don't believe Luke is her father:
- If Luke was her father she wouldn't be such a fanboy when hearing that Luke was alive and real. She was young when she was abandoned but she was definitely old enough to know who her dad was.

It would definitely be tidier and simpler of I'm wrong but it would expose some major major flaws in the writing. As someone said above, I don't think we can fully judge the soundness of the story until VIII.

Based on VII as a standalone I am very happy and satisfied with the movie.
posted by like_neon at 5:56 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Oh also another mark against theories that she escaped from whatever Bad Thing happened at the Jedi school and being spirited away by Ren is that she would remember that and it would have been brought up and she would have recognised Ren. She looked like she was maybe 5-6 years old she she was dropped off? Left basically alone on a desert planet she would have the memories of her arrival and the circumstances surrounding that event engrained in her. It just doesn't fit into her character expositions or behaviour.

I'm open to her being Kenobi's grand-child with that information completely hidden from her and for some reason kept away from all things related to the Jedi from birth.
posted by like_neon at 6:18 PM on December 26, 2015

Jedi can read minds and control minds so it's not a stretch to think Luke could give a six year old some amnesia to forget she's a partly trained jedi.
posted by sandswipe at 6:25 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

What if Rey is somehow related to Snoke or Palpatine?
posted by humanfont at 6:47 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

She's not. It's all about the skywalkers!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:03 PM on December 26, 2015

I think Disney should make plenty of Star Wars movies, hopefully good ones, and hopefully we'll get to a point where there isn't such intense pressure on a single film.

This is basically where I fall, too. Not only am I not worried about the potential for a bad Star Wars movie, I'm actually pretty heartened by it, and here's why:

Star Wars has now moved to a very MCU-like model, with each film being handled by different directors/writers/other creatives, but with some centralized people providing continuity of focus and broader story direction. This is in stark contrast to how Lucasfilm worked prior to the buyout, whereby Lucas basically held court and did what he wanted, and nobody had any real hope of swaying him. While you can argue that the latter has some level of creative authenticity (cue auteur theory), it's also really susceptible to shitty feedback loops and creators who basically buy into their own bullshit taking the whole thing down. The prequels were exactly that.

So anyways: because of this difference, I have every belief that even though there will inevitably be a bad Star Wars film in the next decade, it won't be Prequels Bad. At worst, it will be Iron Man 3 Bad -- clearly a misstep, but one that can be endured, moved past, and learned from. So, even in the prospect of a bad film, I'm glad that the organization is being put in place now that one person isn't going to tank the whole thing out of sheer hubris.
posted by tocts at 7:08 PM on December 26, 2015 [4 favorites]

It seems the galaxy far far away does not have much in the way of history classes

It was interesting how Finn was the only one with any kind of formal education, knowing far more background than Rey or Han. Guess Stormtrooper training is pretty comprehensive.
posted by zsazsa at 7:32 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

What, Iron Man III was great fun! Not a misstep at all!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:35 PM on December 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

And then Star Wars kind of gets oversaturated and the media treats it like the pretty basic fun story it is, rather than some crazy media experience all out of proportion to how interesting the movie actually is.

Though it is not possible because Disney has it for 50 years or something, I would love it if it just became public mythology for anyone to do anything with. So that you can make Clash of the Titans or you can make Hercules Goes Bananas and anything in between.

(I wish the same for Tolkien's legendarium. He said that he set out to create a mythology for the English, but his family is taking actions that move it in the opposite direction.)
posted by ignignokt at 7:51 PM on December 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

It was Iron Man 2 that was bad, not Iron Man 3.

Right now I'm not worried about "too many" Star Wars films. They actually are functioning quite differently to the MCU films. The "Saga" films - of which TFA is Episode VII - are being treated separately to the "Anthology" films, of which Rogue One is the first. You won't have to see Rogue One to understand Episode VIII - mostly because of when Rogue One is set - previous to A New Hope. Unlike the MCU films, which almost act like episodes of a TV series. You basically need to see all the MCU films to really appreciate the Avengers movies, which act like season finales.

The "Saga" films continue the series, the ongoing story of Luke Skywalker and family - connected by familiar characters and John Williams' score. You might get different directors, but each film leads on from the last.

The "Anthology" films might be set in the same universe, but the connective tissue is a lot less. You've got a different director. You've got someone else writing the score. I expect the tone could be entirely different; Rogue One sounds like a heist film with thieves and bounty hunters, so I hope it feels different to the "Saga" films.

I think my hope would be post-Episode IX is that the "Saga" films are rested for another 10-15 years (15 years between ROTJ and Phantom Menace, 10 years between Revenge of the Sith and TFA) and we let Rey, Finn and Poe disappear for a while. And maybe the "Anthology" films get to be more wild and creative in the meantime; maybe there's an Old Republic trilogy thrown in there or something.

Then there will be less fear of burn-out, as I'm experiencing with the MCU films at the moment.
posted by crossoverman at 8:20 PM on December 26, 2015 [9 favorites]

That one Stormtrooper that fought Finn with his stupid technostaff literally threw away his blaster when he saw Finn had a lightsaber. He is the opposite of Indiana Jones against that whirling scimitar guy. If I were Captain Phasma, after that incident, I would have all technostaves confiscated and destroyed.

Well, conversely, I think Phasma should execute any stormtrooper who makes the mistake of firing a blaster at a person with a lightsaber, assuming they survive the inevitable bolt deflection into their gut; also, lest we forget, the guy with the electrostaff beats the ever-loving shit out of Finn and is about to bash in his brains when Han snipes him. Under the circumstances, I find it hard to criticize his martial and tactical choices. This is also my essential argument against Finn as Force-user, by the way; sure, he tries to use a lightsaber twice, and both times he gets a mudhole stomped in him.
posted by Errant at 8:30 PM on December 26, 2015 [13 favorites]

I wanted to get this stuffie of the cuddliest Dark Lord ever but I resisted.
posted by Lexica at 9:37 PM on December 26, 2015 [4 favorites]

Also, I don't think this Tor.com piece (written by Emily Asher-Perrin) has been linked so far: One Fan’s Blow-By-Blow Reaction to Star Wars: The Force Awakens, or, How Episode VII Made Me Sob Continuously in Front of My Friends Forever.
posted by Lexica at 9:43 PM on December 26, 2015 [9 favorites]

That would probably be too weird for SW but I keep hoping for something less repetitive than "she's related to someone".

The in-universe explanation for how a force-sensitive in Knights of The Old Republic levels up from rank noob to Jedi/Sith Master is pretty similar to your suggestion, and actually was, for me, the hardest hitting Star Wars twist there is. That game is so crazily good, I really wish Disney would get BioWare to make another single player Star Wars RPG. Surely they can use some of the spare change left over from the TFA profits to fund it.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:11 PM on December 26, 2015

I saw it on Christmas, and have been reading this thread since then.

I generally enjoyed the movie, but did feel the callbacks to the OT were a bit much. Like, I knew that was the holographic chess board without them having to turn it on and have the shot linger on it a bit when they weren't even going to play, and there were just a couple things like that where it felt like the filmmakers were basically doing a wink-wink-nudge-nudge. Hopefully, that's just to get people on board for the first movie and doesn't stay so noticeable.

The whole map concept kind of bugged me. Luke is off in hiding...but he left a map? Why? Did he know precisely where he was going before he ran off? Isn't that kind of not how you expect people who run off to act? If the map is just jedi temples, wouldn't that be fairly common knowledge at this point and wouldn't those be someplace you might check out first anyway? They couldn't identify the systems in the map fragment, but once they put it into place in R2's larger map they know where everything is? It all seemed to be the opposite of how I'd think things actually work.

But, I am glad that they found Luke this movie, did it in basically a cut, and didn't drag the whole thing out. While watching the movie with the buildup around the map and all, I started imagining the next movie being about following the map to find Luke, and there'd be adventures and lessons learned along the way, and they'd get to the final destination shown on the map and there'd be a sign saying "THE SKYWALKER WAS WITHIN YOU ALL ALONG" and uuuuuuuugh.
posted by LionIndex at 10:32 PM on December 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

My biggest (repeated) complaint about the star wars universe was that it's focus on the one story thread makes the universe seem small.
The anthology movies have the chance to address this perfectly.

I was saying to friends whilst waiting in line for TFA that I'd love to see a lot of smaller completely unconnected movies in the same universe.
A star wars rom-com set on a planet that is completely remote so it's inhabitants barely know there's a war on or an occupation story set in a besieged city planet.
Maybe a regency style courtly manners film on a planet with a formal stratified society?
A murder mystery on an intergalactic transport?
Space zombies?
A buddy cop film on the mean streets of.... i dunno, gangster world?, whatever.
No one in any of these films needs to be watching the pod racing on Tatooine or have any clue where Naboo is.

Also they don't need a particularly huge budget, you could do a decent space weekend at bernies for very little cash.
Then when you've done 50 of them you can have your main saga characters turn up at one of these worlds (maybe) and you've got some good story built up.
It's a huge universe. Make the most of it!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:53 AM on December 27, 2015 [9 favorites]

The Starkiller beam is clearly traveling at hyperspeed, so we can assume the bits that lose coherency and fly out the side, making the beam visible, are also at hyperspeed.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:30 AM on December 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

The in-universe explanation for how a force-sensitive in Knights of The Old Republic levels up from rank noob to Jedi/Sith Master is pretty similar to your suggestion, and actually was, for me, the hardest hitting Star Wars twist there is.

Yep, KOTOR 1 twist fo lyfe.

Also they don't need a particularly huge budget, you could do a decent space weekend at bernies for very little cash.
Then when you've done 50 of them you can have your main saga characters turn up at one of these worlds (maybe) and you've got some good story built up.

I think ultimately we're going to see another TV show (set in the new timeline), whether live action or the Dave Filoni animated type. It's too logical and Disney already has a TV pipeline.
posted by selfnoise at 6:20 AM on December 27, 2015

You're my world bro!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on December 27, 2015 [7 favorites]

Lexica that tor.com piece is so good. I'm loving how the younger generation have latched onto this movie through things like Emo Kylo Ren on Twitter and the million ships of fanfic launched by the gleam in Poe Dameron's eye, etc.

But this article, as the kids these days are wont to say, is my everything. It's so exactly how I reacted to the movie myself.

so I have to say, the kids are alright and goddamn it you nerds, Star Wars is back.
posted by lonefrontranger at 6:45 AM on December 27, 2015 [5 favorites]

With all the talk of how quickly Rey picks up force powers, and how there are a couple of moments here and there where she shows frustration at things not working out, I wonder if they'll work that into her story. It might make a nice swerve if the trilogy isn't about the conflict in Ren, but Rey having to fight against how easy it is for her to use these powers, with no training, without understanding that some of the things she (might, conceivably) can do are tainted, or will draw her towards the dark side. Up until the final part of the film, and what comes next, Ren is arguably the only teacher she's had, in a learn by observation sort of way. What if the complaint that people are voicing, that it's too easy for her, what if that becomes the backbone of this trilogy?

I can't see them being willing to turn Rey into a Sith, but it really feels like a lot of the groundwork is there: natural affinity with no real understanding, deep emotional issues (abandonment), relatively short temper. Could be awesome, but I can't see it happening.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:13 AM on December 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

Or, in other words, where Luke got to be Avatar Ang, Rey is gonna be Avatar Korra.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:23 AM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

I assumed that in the interrogation when Kylo Ren inadvertently opens up his mind to Rey she picked up some force use tips whilst she was in there.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:26 AM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yes, thanks Lexica for that link; it's the best (and most fun) response piece I've read so far, and echoes my own reaction. Star Wars is back, isn't it?

I saw it again yesterday, this time with my father (who regaled us with tales of taking us to see it back in '77, which sadly I don't remember well). The film definitely rewards multiple viewings; my younger sister and I both were paying much closer attention to details, and particularly to Rey's vision. As for Rey's parentage, I'm still on the fence. There are plenty of telegraphs that she is Luke's daughter, but it also seems a bit too pat. And when she's left on Jakku, in her memory vision, it's not with a kindly protector; the alien arm holding her is grasping not her hand but her upper arm, and begins to pull her away roughly. Maybe she was left behind as payment for a debt? It certainly gives us enough to ponder until the next installment!

Starkiller Base probably doesn't deserve so much beanplating, but it occurs to me that it fires once, destroying the Hosnian system, then charges up again to fire on the Resistance base. But would it not have already destroyed its star the first time? Was it in a binary star system from the get-go? Or is Starkiller Base itself mobile, moving to a new system every time it fires? That would seem to me a very effective terror weapon of mass destruction: pop into a troublesome star system, suck the star dry and blow up all the planets. Erase the system from the map entirely. Keep on the move, don't allow the Resistance fleet to get a bead on you. It certainly helps flesh out the concept a bit more, but again it probably won't bear the weight of too much analysis.

The universe would howl if Star Trek pulled something similar, but in Star Wars it earns little more than a shrug. I don't necessarily want Star Wars to be more science-y, but like someone else pointed out above, it does make the galaxy seem a lot smaller than it should. Even in a space opera, space should be big.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 8:18 AM on December 27, 2015

It was Iron Man 2 that was bad, not Iron Man 3.

Whoops, brain fart. The point still stands, though: without one all-controlling creative at the helm, the likely size of the failures is reduced, while the ability to recover from a failure is greatly increased (by bringing in new writers / directors / etc).

Like, I knew that was the holographic chess board without them having to turn it on and have the shot linger on it a bit when they weren't even going to play

Yeah, this is probably one of the few parts of the film I did think was off. I was happy to see the chessboard still in the Falcon, but didn't need to see it turn on (and if it had to turn on, it should have been switched off quickly). I appreciate that they brought in the crew that did the original effect for Star Wars to recreate it (using the same stop motion methods, even!), but it was probably a mistake, pacing wise, to waste so much time on it in the movie. Better to have left it as a special feature for the home video release.
posted by tocts at 8:32 AM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

Porkins Jr has a name! Temmin "Snap" Wexley. There's more info on him in a tie-in novel. Also there's a doll. Played by Greg Grunberg, who turns out to be a childhood buddy of Abrams'; they even saw Star Wars together kids. I recognize him mostly from Heroes.
posted by Nelson at 8:35 AM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

I also recognized him from Heroes mostly, though he's been in a couple of other things. Also, I was super confused in my first viewing, because at one moment during the big X-Wing vs. Starkiller fight I misidentified him as Kevin Smith, and was like "wait, did Abrams give Kevin Smith a cameo in this?". In my second viewing, I looked more closely and saw that it was just Snap/Grunberg.
posted by tocts at 8:38 AM on December 27, 2015

in other words, where Luke got to be Avatar Ang, Rey is gonna be Avatar Korra.

Mefi's own Sokka shot first seems more relevant than ever, I'm surprised he hasn't popped into this thread yet.
posted by numaner at 8:49 AM on December 27, 2015

In thinking about TFA I’ve found it helpful to separate myself into two parts which I’ll call Left Brain and Right Brain.

Right Brain approaches this movie as it would approach a brand new movie about which I know nothing. When Right Brain likes something, it fires an impulse; it doesn’t need to know why it likes it. It starts working when the movie begins and stops working when the movie ends.

Left Brain is tougher. It started analyzing the instant I found out that there would be an Episode VII. I doubt it will ever stop analyzing. It’s the part that keeps trying to find reasons for why I like the things I like, and why I dislike the things I dislike.

Often, the two sides agree on things. The simple montage that establishes Rey’s routine is, for all the reasons stated upthread, wonderful; it pleased both Left Brain and Right Brain very much. Left Brain loved the techniques it used (like the quick cuts of her gathering junk, assembled into a simple six-second montage) and the way it signaled that the storytelling was going to evolve rather than stagnate like the prequels. Likewise with some of the early funny dialogue (like Poe’s “do you talk first? do I talk first?”), which made me laugh but also signaled that the days of “coarse sand” dialogue were behind us.

But even things that Right Brain didn’t care for ended up being OK becuase Left Brain understood why they needed to be there:

Many of the scenes with Han felt like outright fan service. Instead of the gang standoff in the bowels of the Falcon, I think Right Brain would have preferred that those seven minutes be spent elsewhere. But Left Brain knows that Han Solo needed a curtain call.
The Han/Leia scenes felt like two people standing around going “remember when we did all that stuff in the original trilogy? yeah, that was fun…” and had the added burden of needing to exposit why they’re no longer together and what happened to their son. But Left Brain knows that TFA doesn’t work as Episode VII without some sort of bridge between the original trilogy and the new stuff.
Right Brain thought it was weird that Kylo Ren was so petulant and prone to lightsaber tantrums, but Left Brain understood that the new trilogy needs him not to be a Vader rehash.
Right Brain noticed early on that we were following the broad arc of Episode IV, but Right Brain did not care. Left Brain cares a little bit, but forgives this minor sin because it knows that Episode VII needed to convince people that this new trilogy was worth their time. It cribs the story structure — which is the one thing worth stealing from Episode IV — and leaves behind its awful dialogue and Lucas’s obvious lack of interest in getting good performances from his actors. It needs to tell people: “Unlike George Lucas, we understand how humans talk to one another, and we understand why the general public likes Star Wars. This is the sort of Star Wars movie you can expect from the new leadership.”

More personally, I think the movie needed to address a majority of demands from both Left Brain and Right Brain to satisfy me. If it’s not going to be a good popcorn movie, Right Brain can go watch Guardians of the Galaxy — it doesn’t care about that universe, but at least that movie will give it rogueish wisecracks and explosions. Beyond that, I’m still trying to sort out the stuff that Left Brain wants. Is any of it important? If I keep thinking about this movie, will I gain greater insight into it, or am I just doing mental busywork?

Maybe it’s that moviegoers have a hierarchy of needs. Simpler movies have shorter pyramids and need to please on fewer levels. Grand sagas like Star Wars accumulate expectations over time and need to satisfy us in deeper ways if they want to have any sort of connection to the other movies in the series.

For me, this thread is a useful reminder of the hierarchy. I feel like most of the TFA thinkpieces I’ve been reading are addressing ornamentation near the top of the needs pyramid, and that’s fine, but that stuff isn’t going to affect my appreciation of the movie. The foundational stuff, the stuff at the junction of Right Brain and Left Brain, is the stuff that a movie has to get right, or else it won’t support any weight above.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:00 AM on December 27, 2015 [12 favorites]

I've decided that TFA is quite good if I pretend the StarKiller Base stuff didn't happen and it was just a movie about the Rebels finding Luke before the Empire does. The film reads more as an homage to the original Star Wars rather than a lazy ripoff.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:10 AM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

Grunberg was also in Felicity and Alias and has had bit parts in other Abrams stuff. I'm a big fan of Alias so I was completely tickled to see JJ got his buddy a cool little part in Star Wars.
posted by Mavri at 9:22 AM on December 27, 2015

I too feel it would be better if "blow up a round thing" didn't have to be on their checklist.
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

I too feel it would be better if "blow up a round thing" didn't have to be on their checklist.

Yes, at least change it up, make it a cube or octagon!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:34 AM on December 27, 2015 [5 favorites]

You guys don't mean that.

* waves hand *
You love round things and seeing them blown up.
posted by numaner at 11:04 AM on December 27, 2015 [8 favorites]

I love round things and seeing them blown up!
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:06 AM on December 27, 2015 [8 favorites]

<huttese>Your mind tricks won't work on me, boy. </huttese>
posted by entropicamericana at 11:09 AM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

"Star Wars 9's Death Cube was widely seen as a misstep, but after the incredible Death Hexagon of Star Wars 10 and the multiple-oscar-winning Star Wars 12 featuring the Death Egg, the franchise is here to stay for a long, long time. Tune in tomorrow for our exclusive report on Star Wars 13 and the Death Football!"
posted by sandswipe at 11:12 AM on December 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

Your mind tricks won't work on me, boy.

Random shower thought: Does the Jedi mind trick work on people who speak a different language? What about people who speak your language but it's a second/third/fourth language for them and they actually spend most of their time thinking in their own language? Does it work on droids and other electronic minds?
posted by honestcoyote at 11:12 AM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

I love round things and seeing them blown up!

I like round battlestations and I can not lie
You other rebels can't deny
When a Deathstar flies by, you want to lay it to waste
And line up those targets in your face
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:18 AM on December 27, 2015 [19 favorites]

So, Bothans?
(YEAH)
Bothans?
(YEAH)
Did you die for plans to show them?
(HELL YEAH!)
posted by LionIndex at 11:34 AM on December 27, 2015 [17 favorites]

Re: the reach of the Jedi Mind Trick, Luke uses it effectively on Bib Fortuna to get into Jabba's inner sanctum in ROTJ. I think he probably fits into your second category.
posted by Kosh at 11:44 AM on December 27, 2015

In possibly the most inaccurate use of the word "historically", historically, Force-users are "mindblind" to droids, which is one of the reasons that the separatist movement in the prequels uses a droid army, as well as why Anakin and Luke are very unusual in having a strong mechanical aptitude and close relationship with their droids (shaded by Obi-Wan, who has a typical Jedi disdain for artificial life which does not flow from / contribute to the Force). This is why Palpatine's Order 66 masterstroke was embedding it in the clone army; because the Jedi could feel the clones through the Force, they became complacent about their command and control of the army, so that Jedi arrogance concealed Palpatine's plan for him. (Going back to an earlier conversation, this is another example of how the prequels are doing some really good stuff on paper until you get to the actual dialogue.) As for the Force persuasion, the requirement seems to be that the person being tricked needs to understand the Force-user's command. Luke attempts to trick both Bib Fortuna and Jabba, successfully and unsuccessfully respectively, but there's no indication that Luke speaks or understands Huttese.
posted by Errant at 11:49 AM on December 27, 2015 [6 favorites]

Cinema manager details the 'nightmare hellscape' of screening Star Wars: The Force Awakens
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:16 PM on December 27, 2015

I thought the film was fair--which makes it one of the best Star Wars films, right?

My son, the literalist debater, hated it. He has a lot of beefs with the film, but the main one was how Rey, who learned about the force like 15 minutes before, was able to defeat Kylo Ren in a light saber battle. He thought it destroyed the whole idea that one had to learn to master the force, and left Kylo Ren as a very non-scary bad guy. Very true.

I think Abrams did to Star Wars what he did to Star Trek--trashed a whole universe to produce one not that great film. I do not like him.
posted by LarryC at 12:21 PM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

Kylo Ren, though, was bleeding from a shot in the ribs with a bowcaster right before that battle, and his training was not complete.

He is supposed to be a not-very-good bad guy. That's the point of the character. He tries hard, but he is not Darth Vader. He is very scared of that and with that dread, he psyches himself out. His flawness and insecurity makes him really interesting to me; far more interesting than a Darth Vader II or Darth Maul II would be.

I think Abrams & co. did a good job of making him seem extremely intimidating for the first act of the movie, and then revealing his vulnerability during the rest of the movie. It is a little comical when he takes off his mask and speaks in his unenhanced voice, but it is also very dramatically effective. I was amused but also shocked. He's just a kid, an angsty twenty-something, and his earlier lightsaber makes so much sense when you see that.
posted by ignignokt at 12:35 PM on December 27, 2015 [30 favorites]

Yeah but come on I'm with the literalist debater kid: Rey is like one of those kids on Heroes where it's not so much she learns to manage her power but she is turned on and then can fly and jump buildings perfectly.

And okay, fun, yeah, but again, not the hero's journey. I don't know what shape of narrative this movie was supposed to be.

And you know what else bothers me? The only thing that I'm really interested in is Kylo Ren's arc, okay, Finn is interesting too, but mainly because that actor is insanely talented. No, I'm vaguely interested if there's some Kylo Ren redemption narrative.

But I don't see how that can happen, because he killed Han Solo. Who is going to root for Kylo Ren after he killed Han?

But I totally feel like some Krampus thing with that opinion. Just wanted to show some respect for literalist debater kid.
posted by angrycat at 12:52 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

But I don't see how that can happen, because he killed Han Solo. Who is going to root for Kylo Ren after he killed Han?

Greedo's family.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:57 PM on December 27, 2015 [17 favorites]

Does the Jedi mind trick work on people who speak a different language?

Yes.

Having watched the original trilogy and two of the prequels so far the only beings it doesn't work on are Jabba (who specifies they won't work on him because he is too strong-willed) and Watto (heh... remember him? Who says they don't work on Toydarians, because they love money more).
posted by Mezentian at 1:41 PM on December 27, 2015

Emo Kylo Ren's costume is really complicated.

No wonder he's so cranky.
posted by Mezentian at 2:01 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

Cinema manager details the 'nightmare hellscape' of screening Star Wars: The Force Awakens

Spoiler alert: There were more moviegoers at the theater than there usually are.
posted by duffell at 2:14 PM on December 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

wow, star wars fans are such filthy animals! all that trash!
posted by numaner at 2:47 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

What bothered me about the Death Planet destroying 5 or so other planets isn't problems of astronomical scale (it's believable that one solar system has several inhabited worlds), but how downplayed the destruction and failure was. A few seconds of people watching oncoming doom, and a light show. When I've talked about this part movie with folks afterwards, they've all nearly blanked on this part of it.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/22/the_star_wars_fandom_menace_the_glaring_emotional_blind_spots_that_power_the_force_awakens/

I did get the impression Luke was torn up by it, but then he could have equally been reacting to Han's death. Which had much more emotional weight than megadeaths committed by space nazis.

(However, a nasty little part of me quite likes the idea that Jar Jar was on Coruscant..)
posted by joeyh at 2:58 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

(However, a nasty little part of me quite likes the idea that Jar Jar was on Coruscant..)

That wasn't Coruscant though.

Palpatine probably killed Jar Jar at some point before Rebels, just like he did the big blue spikey guy who was his right-hand dude in the Senate, as part of some purge of non-humans.

Jar Jar did basically start the Clone Wars.
posted by Mezentian at 3:02 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

Those who do not read this thread are doomed to repeat it.
posted by kmz at 3:03 PM on December 27, 2015 [7 favorites]

Those who do not read this thread are doomed to repeat it.

In about 15 years for Episode 10, no doubt.
posted by Mezentian at 3:07 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

One thing I really liked on my second viewing that didn't strike me so forcefully the first time is that Ren and Hux are rivals for Snoke's regard. How humiliating and frustrating for Ren that as a Force wielder he's not automatically the golden boy. How shrewd of Snoke to cultivate this competition which seems to be keeping both of them insecure and on their toes. In the Empire days the non-Force-users, even high up in the hierarchy, were seen as pretty much dispensable; Vader could choke half a dozen on a bad morning and nobody ever said boo about it. But one gets the sense that if Ren snapped and took out Hux, there would be hell to pay. It really changes the stakes for both of them and makes the First Order feel like a fresh take on power in the galaxy far, far away, where what matters is talent, regardless of how that talent manifests itself.

Probably if Ren felt that he were Snoke's undisputed right-hand man he would actually be much stronger in the Force than he is. But the constant worrying about whether he measures up, not only to Vader's legacy but also to this fucking Muggle general who appears to be about his age, keeps him too on edge and too angry to manage his emotions appropriately. Of course Snoke knows this.
posted by town of cats at 3:10 PM on December 27, 2015 [27 favorites]

I can't help but imagine Professor Farnsworth working for the First Order. "Oh, my. It looks like I'll have to invent something in the next ten minutes. Perhaps some sort of Death Star."
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:18 PM on December 27, 2015 [13 favorites]

Pre-Empire Darth Vader is kind of this oddball loose canon bouncing around the Imperial power structure without official sanction and the actual leader of Imperial forces, Moff Tarkin, has very little time for him at all, so I guess Hux is very much the Tarkin of that relationship.

(Though I do like the childhood friendship of emo Kylo Ren and Hux)
posted by Artw at 3:26 PM on December 27, 2015 [6 favorites]

OK, I've seen the movie three times now, and understandably my feelings about it have evolved. Like savetheclocktower, there are multiple levels I have to grapple with the movie on. Broadly, I think Abrams and Co. have done an astonishingly good job with this movie. It had to do so many things:

-Usher in a new cast of characters
-Begin to usher out the old cast (I think each movie will usher out Han/Leia/Luke in that order, though maybe not kill them all off, moreso each movie will focus more on one of the exiting cast members than the other movies -- this one was Han's)
-Make us all think this was not going to be the prequels redux (that is, it had to not be shit)
-Appeal to a wide range of moviegoers (children, fans, nerds, the casual moviegoer)
-Be Act I of a three part series: Set up narrative possibilities to be handed off to the subsequent films (it has to introduce them but not set them all in stone)

It manages to do all of this well, and while we may nitpick (and oh, I will), it doesn't really have massive problems the way the prequels did. Some of my impressions:

- After the first viewing I felt like it was very fast-paced, very compact, packing a lot of stuff in. Repeated viewings lessened that feeling, but that's because I'd already seen it so I could know what to look for when it seemed like I might've missed something before. This quickness seemed like a conscious choice, probably because the creators realized that we're all going to spend a year or two picking the thing apart so they'd better put in a lot of stuff for us to nerd out about.
-BB-8 is very well balanced as a character, being Artoo-like but its own thing (particularly without a Threepio to play off); appealing to adults and children both is not easy to pull off (ahem, Jar Jar).
-The part where they cut to Maz Kanata's place and show the Starkiller Base beam shooting across the sky was a total clunker for me, but I'm willing to forgive it because I recognize that it's the kind of thing kids won't notice (probably) and it's not as if this is hard sci-fi.
-On that point, Star Wars has always had a weird relationship to scale. Obviously it's not realistic, but sometimes it feels like the galaxy is huge (big senate in the prequels, the perceived remoteness of Tatooine and Jakku and Dagobah) and at others it feels small (FTL being a big factor there, but things like the cut to Maz Kanata's world make it seem like all these places are in the same solar system).
-Rey's talent is for figuring out how things work -- this lends itself to being a scavenger, fixing the Falcon, and grokking the Force.
-Ridley is an excellent lead and it's a crying shame the toy companies are fucking up like they are, but I imagine wanton capitalism will remedy that.
-John Boyega is insanely charismatic.
-Oscar Isaac is too good an actor to be so underutilised (though so is Max Van Sydow, who I sort of felt like he was in this movie just to say he was in a SW movie), so they'd better beef up his involvement in the next film or I'ma be mad.
-It stands up to repeat viewings very well. I will see it again I'm sure (though maybe not, like, tomorrow).
-Cinematically it managed to look and feel like the original films (IV-VI) which I'm sure was a (smart) conscious choice; the costuming, the shot selection, etc. I think this very much helps it distance itself from the prequels, which at least in my mind are very modern-feeling with too much CGI.
-The Han death scene is a little ambiguous (especially Kylo Ren's lines which have several ways to interpret them) but on repeated viewings it plays better -- I think this is good.

OK, I'm getting wordy, but here's my final two cents regarding the big speculation -- who is Rey? I think she's got to be either a Skywalker or a Kenobi. The latter seems harder to pull off b/c Ben's been dead since IV, but I guess he could have a family not previously mentioned. My pet theory is that she's Luke's daughter, but he doesn't know about her existence, which gels with Rey saying Luke is a myth -- her mother told her stories about the Legendary Luke Skywalker et alia but did not include the bit about him being her father, because he wasn't around (having X-Winged off on another adventure leaving mom knocked up and alone), and because her mother DOES NOT want Rey becoming a Jedi. In fact it was her mother who brought her to Jakku (b/c Luke would never do that), in order to hide her from the whole Jedi galactic drama (both light and dark), again because mom doesn't like the Jedi. However, mom's no dummy, so she also provided her caretakers with the map piece from TFA, as insurance (I don't think the caretaker being Unkar Plutt makes any sense; the arm shown in the flashback scene isn't definitively his). What mom couldn't have predicted is some tragedy befalling the caretakers on Jakku (callback to Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen), which leaves Rey to fend for herself and brings us up to the events of TFA (also explains why Lor San Tekka is there seemingly without knowledge of Rey -- he is looking for the map piece, but the existence of a Skywalker daughter is unknown to him, though he clearly knows Kylo Ren, which would make sense).

OK, I'll shut up. For now.
posted by axiom at 3:32 PM on December 27, 2015 [8 favorites]

So I just came home from my second screening, caught up with the thread, and here are some random thoughts:

- Rey lives inside an AT-AT, someone else probably pointed that out but I didn't realize it myself until I saw the hole in the belly is the one she crawled out of from the previous scene where she made her food. And she's a total loner, traveling quite a ways between her HouseT-AT and Niima.
- I thought there'd be more figurines in her dwelling, but I only caught the Rebel fighter made of straw with the pilot's uniform.
- The empire does use very primitive droids. When Po is brought aboard that Star Destroyer you see the little black mousy one runs across the background. Obviously the torture droid they use on Po. Then there's a white walky droid that I couldn't determine its function in the hall when Ren is running around finding Rey after she escapes.
- When Han hugs Leia goodbye and she says "bring our son home", Harrison Ford definitely telegraphed this look of worry and dread, like he knows. I'm not sure if that was on purpose.
- Ren is surely asking Han to let himself be killed so Ren can further move to the dark side, his whole plead of "I want the pain to end" is so angsty and of course Han is like "whatever I can do buddy!" but then he gets stabbed and he's like "oh.. that's what you meant".
- Rey's "noooooooo" scream is shorter than I remembered from the first viewing.
- Chewey was so pissed he booked out of there and detonated everything without being sure Rey and Finn are safely out. You could argue that he didn't know they climbed up on top, but the whole planet heard that "noooooooooo".
- That one Resistance pilot that told everyone "there's a new hole in the oscillator" seriously looked and sounded like Shia Labouf. He's not in the credits, but they didn't show or say his name so I don't know which one it was. There's a few male X-Wing Pilots uncredited but I supposed a couple of those male actors if shaven could look similar to Labouf in a helmet.
- I tried and I don't think it's obvious that Plutt is Pegg or that JB-007 is Daniel Craig. Although I think the latter is because he was doing an American/non-British accent. But when she tells him to drop the blaster and he replies that he's dropping it, his accent drops just a bit and you can hear the British and it sounds pretty close to how Craig sounds. For Plutt, the voice modulation is so heavy you can hardly tell it's him at all.
- With regards to that last lightsaber fight. I think a lot of you are giving Rey too much credit. By the time he's pinning her at the cliff, Ren already's been blasted in the spleen, and Finn managed to cut him once, so he's probably pretty weak/tired/hurt at that point, while Rey has had time to recover from getting force pushed into a tree, and she's just realizing her own power. Ren is a mess at that point, with his fear (of failing Vader) becoming true and this "embodiment" of Luke and his saber coming at him. He lost due to being injured and being afraid. I know those eyes, those are the eyes of someone scared of disappointing others.
posted by numaner at 3:50 PM on December 27, 2015 [7 favorites]

oh to add to axiom's notes: that arm is definitely Unkar Plutt's. It's definitely his voice as he says something like "come with me, kid!" in a not nice way while grabbing at her elbow, so the idea from upthread about her being left as possible loan insurance kinda makes sense.
posted by numaner at 4:05 PM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

The jockeying for position between Ren and Hux is definitely a shrewd play by Snoke but I disagree that there'd be hell-to-pay for Ren if he snapped and killed Hux. I would expect Snoke to be delighted beyond reason at Ren's commitment to the dark side. "Finally some backbone! I woulda killed that bastard ages ago!"
posted by wabbittwax at 4:07 PM on December 27, 2015

There was a point where Ren was basically like "fuck this up and I will kill you this time". I read the whole thing as Hux being like Tarkin where Snoke/Emperor was just using them for the commanding hierarchy but couldn't care less if they got killed. The way that Snoke told Hux to go ahead with his proposal was more like "Yeah we should probably do that since emo boy here captured a scavenger girl strong with the force". And at the end as everything comes crashing down he tells Hux to find and help/rescue Ren and bring him so he can finish his training. Hux is just a tool for Snoke to control the First Order and to help Ren, he's not really interested in making them jockey for any position.
posted by numaner at 4:14 PM on December 27, 2015

It's not definitively Unkar Plutt's; I paid close attention to that scene in the flashback the second and third times through:

Rey (approx 5 or 6 years old): Come baaaack!
Arm Guy: Quiet, girl!

The arm definitely looks like Plutt, but it could be any member of his race. I kind of think that's a viable theory (that Arm Guy is not Plutt, but perhaps a relative), because in TFA Plutt doesn't seem particularly close to Rey (he underfeeds her, tries to bribe for then steal BB-8, but doesn't act like she is his charge). The "Come back!" line and her later repeated mentions of waiting for her family to return suggest that she's being left with Arm Guy by her family (not slavers, for example, because then why would she want them to come back, or expect her family to look for her on Jakku). it also fits my pet theory (mom and stepdad left Rey with gruff-but-trustworthy Arm Guy who later dies, and Plutt maybe resents Rey a little hence the underfeeding).
posted by axiom at 4:20 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh, AND ALSO, right after the flashback scene, Maz is talking to Rey, and says something along the lines of "You already know that whoever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back, but there's someone who still could," to which Rey replies, "Luke?" This suggests that whatever family Rey was hoping would return is dead. It also suggests that Rey herself somehow (Force-)intuits a connection with Luke (I mean, she just had visions after touching the Original Skywalker Saber!). Of course, that could be a bit of misdirection, and we know that SW has a penchant for that kind of thing.

OK, so I didn't shut up...
posted by axiom at 4:33 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

Just came back from the third viewing - theater was still packed at a 4:30 sunday night showing. And this was the 2D screen.

Besides Maz saying about Rey being able to get Luke to come back, Maz also said Rey had to move forward with her life, not backwards. Which to me indicates that Luke is not from her past, but Maz can tell she is strong in the Force and her destiny lies with training - and that she would be the apprentice Luke was meant to have.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:50 PM on December 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

I guess Arm Guy could be a relative, but that voice is really similar. Unless it's just the trope of "all aliens sound alike".

I think the dialog of Maz is super vague on purpose. If you look at it as Maz thinking "this girl can find Luke" instead of "this girl could be Luke's daughter", she seems to tease Rey into thinking she has a much larger role in the galaxy because she wants Luke to come back. We might read it as telegraphing that Luke is your father, but why wouldn't Maz just tell her that if she knows?

I rambled for a bit, bottom line: I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter.
posted by numaner at 4:52 PM on December 27, 2015

Also, I'm going to start thinking there is something of a prophesy we have yet to find out about. Hopefully not as bad as the "chosen one" in the prequels - but the allusions to a woman with great power who will disrupt the dark side or something.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:52 PM on December 27, 2015

Just came back from the third viewing - theater was still packed at a 4:30 sunday night showing. And this was the 2D screen.

Weird. I saw it again in it second week of release. As with you, I saw a matinee in 2D, and there were twenty-six people in a 400-seat auditorium.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:27 PM on December 27, 2015

Okay, FINALLY went and saw it with my mega-coughing under control. Went to an afternoon matinee and it was JUST PACKED with families with little kids, who spent the whole movie gasping and going, "Dad! That's a light saber!" "Mom! That's R2D2!" It was charming and totally the best way to see it. Sure, my fans were serviced, but you know who that fan service was really for? DELIGHTED EIGHT-YEAR-OLDS. Nobody's as happy as an 8-year-old who gets the joke. And some of the stuff that was a little heavy-handed with the foreshadowing was MIND BLOWING to little kids less tutored in Routine Plot Complications.

Loved the actual humor in the lines. Loved the wobbly/furry/fuzzy light broadsword of Kylo Ren. I managed to go in totally unspoiled so Ren's parentage was a surprise but I wasn't surprised to discover that Leia and Han were separated because having a sociopath kid will do that. (In fact I require an internet mashup called "We Need To Talk About Kylo.")

When Han stayed on-screen after delivering Rey to Leia, I was like, "Oh, yeah, he's not surviving this movie," because it was pretty obviously not "just" a cameo. BUT MAN WERE THERE SOME SHOCKED 8-YEAR-OLDS.

I am glad someone else grumped about the future (or long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away) having no OSHA. This is my biggest beef with like all sci-fi movies, super-future technology with not even simple safety features. (In the Star Trek reboot, skyscrapers don't even have the pebble-shattering windshield-type glass that skyscrapers have now! No, they break in big plate-glass movie shards. The future lost some important technology during the wipe of brain power that made Chris Pine the smartest guy in the room.) GET A RAILING, EVIL EMPIRE.

The one thing that bugged me during the movie was that I don't feel like a weapon that EATS A STAR would remain stable long enough for a 20-minute battle after destroying a crucial piece of its containment system, but whatever. Other things seem plot-hole-ish in retrospect but that was the only one that bugged me during the movie. (Well, that and the lack of railing. GET A RAILING.)

Mark Hamill did more and better acting during that last 90 seconds than during the entire original trilogy. I did know Adam Driver was the bad guy and I couldn't really see how -- I figured he must keep the mask on all movie -- but wow, now that casting makes really good sense and I am impressed.

I think JJ Abrams was the right director because he LOVES MOVIES. The way Quentin Tarantino and Steven Spielberg love movies, a love of the pure spectacle and an understanding that we go to movies to be the 8-year-old with jaw dropped open in amazement, that makes their movies watchable, entertaining schlock even when their artistic ambitions are a miss. I thought the Star Trek reboot was kinda terribawesome, but great fun to watch even though it was absolutely all over the place.

Cried when the overture started. Loved Rey. Loved Finn. Want to snuggle BB-8. Got misty when they panned across the pilots running to their X-wings and the first pair we see are women.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:39 PM on December 27, 2015 [29 favorites]

... Adam Driver is the same character in Girls ...

So, this was really distracting for my roommate and I. As soon as he took his mask off, the broodiness and anger issues all fell into place, and "is the villain just Adam from Girls?" was basically all we could think about for the rest of the film.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 6:01 PM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

I got back a little while ago from a midafternoon showing.

The original Star Wars movie came out the month before I graduated high school. This one definitely had the same feel-a totally fun movie with tons of action-and for me redeemed the last three sucky movies (two of which I couldn't be bothered to go see after the abomination that was the first prequel.)

It is a very very odd feeling seeing Han and Leia and Luke now as compared to then-these characters have aged with me and my generation-I sat in the theater and did the math-this wild ride started 38 years ago (!)

This movie is both a fitting beginning to new and better adventures but a great homage to the original. It is hard to communicate just how big a deal the very first Star Wars movie was-how eagerly anticipated, and how excited we all were with the new computer technology of the special effects....I saw this one in Imax 3d, how far we have come....I think all us old farts got slammed right upside the feels with this picture show. That last scene had me almost in tears as I looked at Luke and all the years and all that life had thrown at him reflected in his expression. It was like looking in a mirror in a weird way.

Sure, the plot had a lot of overlap with the first movies, but I think for this one it needed to. Like everything had to come full circle. Will be interesting to see where it goes from here.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:03 PM on December 27, 2015 [8 favorites]

> Want to snuggle BB-8

I still can't get over the fact each time I watch it, BB-8 Fucking Purrs, and I'm OK with it.

> GET A RAILING, EVIL EMPIRE

Someone go call Jezztek
posted by mrzarquon at 6:30 PM on December 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't really think Adam Driver looks like a kid that Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher would have but I'm willing to forgive, because he's such a great actor.

Also, he's meant to be more reminiscent of Anakin than his parents, so that works.
posted by crossoverman at 7:04 PM on December 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

I still can't get over the fact each time I watch it, BB-8 Fucking Purrs, and I'm OK with it.

BB-8 also headbutts R2 like a cat, IIRC.

Tried to see it again today, got there an hour early and there was one ticket left.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:55 PM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

I think JJ Abrams was the right director because he LOVES MOVIES.

I'm completely with you on this one. People knocked Super 8 as derivative, but IMHO what it really was was a love letter to Spielberg and Lucas. Abrams is positively infatuated with their body of work, and I think there was not a better choice for someone to take up their mantle and do an updated take on that kind of action/adventure.
posted by tocts at 8:04 PM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

> Tried to see it again today, got there an hour early and there was one ticket left.

I've been buying my tickets online for the venues - appears to be the general consensus in my parents neighborhood as I rarely see anyone actually in the line to buy tickets when I show up - everyone already picked them up from the preorder booth.

(I've now seen the movie three times, twice in the same theatre and same seat)
posted by mrzarquon at 8:49 PM on December 27, 2015

Reserved seating in movie theaters is the best damned thing.
posted by kmz at 9:18 PM on December 27, 2015 [10 favorites]

Yep, my first viewing was in one of the fancier theaters with the reserved seating, recliners and a waiter that comes and take your order and all that. I showed up 5 min before the previews started and waltzed right in... Of course everyone else there did too.
posted by numaner at 9:31 PM on December 27, 2015

kmz, YES IT IS. This was the first time I've been able to reserve seating for a big-deal movie I really gave a shit about, and not having to stand in an interminable line to get a decent seat next to my spouse was a fucking revelation. So wonderful.

Upon further reflection I agree with above commenters that from Snoke's perspective, there wouldn't actually be hell to pay for Ren if he force-choked Hux. But Ren suspects that there might be hell to pay, which pisses him off because THAT MUGGLE FUCKER, which Snoke knows because Ren is able to hide nothing whatsoever from anyone once that mask is off. And there's no reason Snoke needs to disabuse him of the notion, because it's useful for him to have Ren nervy, insecure and temperamental, because Ren will never be as powerful as he could be until he figures out how to use his anger and fear instead of letting them use him.

And so Snoke has a powerful but volatile gofer who has absolutely no idea how deep his potential actually is and lacks the tools to learn, rather than a legit Sith apprentice who he has to worry about eventually trying to take his place as is traditional in the Sith tradition.

And Hux clearly sees himself as someone who could come out on top in this rivalry eventually, too, which means he works harder and covers his bases. He loves getting a chance to show up Ren. Snoke is playing them both and it's glorious to watch.
posted by town of cats at 9:32 PM on December 27, 2015 [12 favorites]

Reserved seating in movie theaters is the best damned thing.
kmz, YES IT IS.

There are, of course, alternative viewpoints.

I go further to see films because the theatre closest to mine has reserved seating, and it is the worst.
(And it favours people who buy online, which I refuse to do).

I like to get into the theatre early, eyeball all the people (especially large groups of teens, parents with young kids, or people with large bags of food or excessive mobile phone collections, and in certain theatres persons of a certain older age) and avoid wedging near them, in a place that offers the most central viewing location.

But to the matter at hand, having just completes the OT and Prequels, and Genndy's Clone Wars, I think there are three candidates for established characters as Snoke: Mace Windu, Qui Gon Jinn and Darth Plagueis.

Mace, because we never found his body (seems unlikely), Qui Gon because he was a religious fanatic and he defeated death (less likely) and Darth Plagueis. He's the only person Sidious knows conquered death, Snoke had some of the same facial features as Palpatine (including the forehead ridge), and I doubt Plagueis would get murdered in his sleep.

Plagueis setting up the insane scheme to rule the galaxy? Seems like a thing. He could set the wheels in motion, sleep for a while, and let Sidious carry out his dirty work. He also probably created Anakin.
posted by Mezentian at 10:29 PM on December 27, 2015

Combination reserved seating and boozer cinema are my usual jam - generally the crowd for it is more NPR than yelling and throwing popcorn, AND I get to drink a nice cocktail while watching my flick. Somehow it felt wrong for TFA though - I want to see it again someplace with less restrained audience participation, at some ridiculous multiplex or such.
posted by Artw at 11:00 PM on December 27, 2015

I sense a disturbance in the Twittersphere... as if a million dollars were wanting to be spent, and were not.

(True story, I am looking for a Rey or Ahsoka, or even Sabine or Hera 12" for my niece's second birthday... and they seem to be in short supply, or don't exist... but somehow I keep finding fanfic unless I add the word Action Figure).
posted by Mezentian at 11:11 PM on December 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

I really don't know if Lego was very smart putting her in the cheapest and easiest to find Force Awakens set or if they just lucked out.
posted by Artw at 11:34 PM on December 27, 2015

Lego is smart.
posted by Mezentian at 1:37 AM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

I just don't get this attitude that toy companies have to female characters.
At this point where the central Jedi character in the biggest movie (slash toy commercial) of all time is female why would you not make toys of her. It's a level of obtuseness that almost has to be deliberate at this point.

Not to mention Sabine Wren or Ahsoka Tano, both far more fun characters than Luke, Anakin or Ezra.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:15 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

There's only one solution, we all write to Rian Johnson the director of the next film and get him to only include female characters.
Then they'll have to make toys of some of them, or just sell empty boxes.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:19 AM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

Wait... so in the Hasbro Millenium Falcon set Finn is piloting?
Finn can't fly... at all!
It's legitimately a plot point in the movie that he breaks Poe out of prison because he needs a pilot. Gah!
This is black widow's motorbike all over again.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:24 AM on December 28, 2015 [18 favorites]

I just don't get this attitude that toy companies have to female characters.

At this stage, I have to figure the sales numbers are substantially down, because while Twitter might demand stuff, it doesn't buy.

Because, you know, Power Droid and Ananamanaman and Prune Face were must buys.....
posted by Mezentian at 4:27 AM on December 28, 2015

His hair, however was styled to be reminiscent of the Boston Marathon bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

Carmicha, that's something that has been haunting me too. I honestly don't know if this was Abrams' intent or not, but Adam Driver is playing this absolutely perfect, and absolutely terrifying, distillation of the kind of angry young men-- Ruslan Tsarni's "losers"-- who become mass shooters or are prime fodder for religious extremist or gang recruitment. Young men who are warped by toxic masculinity and a search for their place in a rapidly changing geopolitical scene, the kind of young men who are desperately searching for a rite of passage to adulthood because the wars that defined their parents' and grandparents' generations are not available to them, and who recreate that ritual of attaining manhood through violence by any means they can find. In Adam Driver's and my generation and social/racial class-- and apparently the generation of the Disney employee who made the Kylo Ren spotify playlist-- that was the trenchcoat mafia boys, the boys who joined the military and either washed out or died, the boys who made their own fight clubs out of boredom, the boys who listened to, oh my fucking god, that specific Marilyn Manson cover of Sweet Dreams. Jump ahead 15 years and it's Elliot Rodger. In a different cultural context it's Abdel Bary, the widely reported "failed rapper" who joined ISIS. In the 1491's satire of "Avatar" as a contemporary Native American family, narrated by the Vietnam veteran grandfather, it's "my idiot grandson-- calls himself Rapatar" who shows off his tribal tattoos and tries desperately to prove himself as a member of a culture he doesn't know how to really connect himself to. Rapatar isn't violent, but the identity crisis he's trying to solve is the same. Losers.

So it's not surprising to me that Kylo Ren is the galaxy's biggest loser, or that most of the fan reaction has been to jump on him for being ridiculous, a meninist, an emo, etc. Because of course he is. Because that's where that kind of delusions-of-grandeur ressentiment violence comes from, right? Would Trump or any other fascist manipulator have the kind of fanbase he does if he weren't a loser who knows how to appeal to other losers? I really don't know if JJ Abrams and the other writers, or Adam Driver playing Adam Sackler/his angsty teen self, or anyone else involved in this movie, made Kylo Ren into this specific and very dangerous kind of loser on purpose or if it was some kind of perfect storm of disaster masculinity, but I haven't been able to let it go. Apologies for the wank storm, you guys.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 4:29 AM on December 28, 2015 [44 favorites]

His hair, however was styled to be reminiscent of the Boston Marathon bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.
Carmicha, that's something that has been haunting me too

My partner and a friend twigged to that one too.

I think it's just a perfect storm of Diver's unique face, and his hair (70's or not). I doubt there's anything deeper (and most of your touchstones mean nothing to me), but it was notable.
posted by Mezentian at 4:34 AM on December 28, 2015

At this point where the central Jedi character in the biggest movie (slash toy commercial) of all time is female why would you not make toys of her. It's a level of obtuseness that almost has to be deliberate at this point.

Toy companies are fiscally conservative. Historically, female action figures don't sell well in toy lines marketed to boys.

This may be the movie that creates enough demand for female hero action figures to get their attention.

LEGO on the other hand, lucked out a bit in that regard. Hasbro has the license to create action figures, so LEGO must sell sets based around vehicles or environments. Rey's speeder is the smallest vehicle featured in the movie, so it works out that our heroine is in the cheapest set.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:48 AM on December 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

Something I was just reminded of, that I noticed on my 4th viewing... when Rey first meets BB-8, she asks him where he's from, and then says something like, "classified? Oh, well me too, big secret" which in the moment is just Rey being snarky but in hindsight where Rey's from is in fact a huge momentous secret!
posted by kmz at 6:20 AM on December 28, 2015 [18 favorites]

I braved a few toy stores this weekend and the Star Wars stuff is pretty picked over, so no Rey. Looking online, I see she costs somewhere above 30 bucks for a figure that would fit the above linked Falcon play set (THAT THING WAS A HUNDRED BUCKS WHAT WERE HIS GRANDPARENTS THINKING) so while I'm all for fair play, I don't want to be gouged for it.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:27 AM on December 28, 2015

With the current demand, toy stores would probably be capitalist assholes and gouge us for any sets that has Rey once they make some.
posted by numaner at 7:27 AM on December 28, 2015

Hey people that has seen it multiple times, do any of you know what kind of ship that was that flew away from young child Rey in her vision? I scoured Wookiepedia for a bit but haven't been through all the ships yet. (The horrendous ad-plagued mobile version of the site made me give up pretty quickly though)
posted by numaner at 7:29 AM on December 28, 2015

No, but it looked kinda like the "quad" or whatever she and Finn were running for before the First Order shot it up.
posted by notyou at 7:45 AM on December 28, 2015

I sell toys on Amazon as a hobby and so here's a few observations about female action figures, SW merch and Rey's availability. First off, protecting the intellectual property has been a worry ever since the SW stuff hit the shelves back in October. Anticipating a boom and wanting to put a brake on price gouging, all of the retailers put purchase limits on every item, including installing software tracking purchases made from the same IP addresses and credit cards; they had also negotiated exclusives they wanted to protect. Thanks to past experience with counterfeit goods (e.g., Frozen, Shopkins and Paw Patrol), Amazon made it very difficult for sellers to offer SW stuff, which meant that people who would usually sell on its platform flooded eBay with stuff. That's also where the fake goods wound up, which created big problems for the legit sellers and called eBay's competence into question (again). Meanwhile, understanding SW as a boy's toy market, holders of other toy IP were trying to help Christmas buyers achieve spending parity for girl's toys, so there was an uptick in things like robot cats.

Regarding Rey, the rumor in the seller community is that the number of Rey toys may have been limited to prevent the merchandise from tipping the movie's hand vis-a-vis the significance of her character. People upthread who talk about how the female characters do poorly are often wrong. Case in point: the original April O'Neil action figure, who went for >$100 until Nickelodon got a round to making more. See also: female wrestlers, Paw Patrol characters, etc. Apart from fanboy sales, the dynamic holds for all off gendered characters: see too, the male Monster High dolls. What happens is that a girl or boy gets into a series and plays with their opposite gendered sibling. Parents then buy that child the same gendered doll. For the female dolls, parents are also buying them as an educational gambit vis-a-vis their boys.
posted by carmicha at 7:49 AM on December 28, 2015 [10 favorites]

I don't remember exactly but it seemed to be more of a transport looking ship, not a fighter or bomber or anything. That's all I remember.
posted by kmz at 7:50 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

I really want it to be the Ghost. Rey is Sabine and Ezra's kid!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:53 AM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

I never played with action figures or Barbies much when I was little but now I want an AT-AT Barbie Dream House starring Rey set. Maybe with a pink millennium falcon. My daughter's Galactic Heroes AT-AT is too small to convert because they won't have a little GH Rey. I'm going to go look at that Friends Star and get some ideas.
posted by artychoke at 8:22 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

> the rumor in the seller community is that the number of Rey toys may have been limited to prevent the merchandise from tipping the movie's hand vis-a-vis the significance of her character.

I can sorta buy this, except… what would Rey toys have divulged that we didn't already know? Before the movie was out we already knew Daisy Ridley's name, and that she'd be playing a major role in TFA. I'm pretty sure we already had seen her costume, which hints at eventual Jedi-ness. An action figure set that inserted her in the place of "generic TIE fighter pilot" would imply nothing more than that she is at least as important to the movie as a generic TIE fighter pilot.
posted by savetheclocktower at 8:32 AM on December 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

There was one Rey toy which comes with a lightsaber, I believe, which was purposefully held back before the release (and accidentally sold at a Wal-Mart) for fear of spoiling the movie. After it got sold, Disney went into overdrive threatening people to take photos of it down from the internet.
posted by Atreides at 8:44 AM on December 28, 2015

How ‘Force Awakens’ Changed During Development: Jedi Killers, Force Ghosts and The Doom Star
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

What would Rey toys have divulged that we didn't already know?

Oh, just that the quantity of toys is presumed by consumers to equate to significance, even though that's clearly not true. The most produced toys were BB-8, Kylo Ren and Chewie.
posted by carmicha at 8:56 AM on December 28, 2015

I understand the need to have toys as part of a marketing campaign, but did Disney really think this movie needed that much marketing? I would've held back all the official toys until after release weekend, and put it all out there, spoilers be damned because this was a case of "if you didn't see it within the first weekend you better go hide under a rock if you don't wanna get spoiled". I don't know any one who hasn't seen the movie that also would care about the spoilers.
posted by numaner at 9:03 AM on December 28, 2015

How ‘Force Awakens’ Changed During Development: Jedi Killers, Force Ghosts and The Doom Star

hey hey, that ship that early-concept-Rey is looking at through the fence is eerily similar to the ship I had questions about.
posted by numaner at 9:05 AM on December 28, 2015

Movie Yelling With Mallory and Mallory: Stop Making Me Care About Kyp Durron
posted by Artw at 9:12 AM on December 28, 2015 [5 favorites]

Re: The Jacket.

I just remembered, on my second viewing I swear that jacket shifts between dark blue and brown constantly depending on the lighting. So you're all wrong and right at the same time. Quantum jacket, indeed.
posted by numaner at 9:20 AM on December 28, 2015

How is the 3D version of the film? I'm not a fan of 3D and resent its taking over theater space, so I'm heavily biased against it. But if any film would have the budget and technical wizardry to make the best 3D film since Avatar, it'd be this one.
posted by Nelson at 9:25 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

Making Sense of The Force Awakens Villains - "I was going to say something about how whether or not I like Darth My Chemical Romance depends on what his backstory turns out to be. Does he have compelling reasons to turn to the Dark Side and kill his father? But then I realized that hey, DARTH VADER never gets much backstory in the original trilogy."

Todd Alcott: some thoughts on Star Wars: The Force Awakens Rey

Our Star Wars Holiday Special - "To criticize The Force Awakens for “recycling” the first three Star Wars movies—to complain that it’s “un-original” compared to that original work of genius—misses the point of the franchise so thoroughly and dramatically that this critical impulse seems more interesting to me than the movie itself. The one thing the original trilogy wasn’t was original. "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

Nelson, 3D is not that much better, if at all. Go see the 2D.

The Lego Movie in 3D is currently the best 3D film since Avatar.
posted by numaner at 9:33 AM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

Movie Yelling With Mallory and Mallory: Stop Making Me Care About Kyp Durron

This was a thoughtfully-made movie by competent people who wanted to do a not-bad job. “PLEASE LIKE ME. I WANT TO BE A REAL BOY” pulsed through every scene.

YAAAAASSSSSSS
posted by numaner at 9:34 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

How ‘Force Awakens’ Changed During Development: Jedi Killers, Force Ghosts and The Doom Star

A Double-Bladed Two-Colored Lightsaber

This is so corny, and so putting-too-fine-a-point-on-it, that I can't see it not eventually ending up in the Star Wars canon. Just watch: Rey will be the one to finish what Vader started and bring balance to the Force, symbolized by fusing the Anakin/Vader lightsabers and wielding them as a staff (we have already seen her fight with a staff, it is inevitable that she will end up with a dual-bladed saber anyway). Calling it now. I await a bounty of favorites and 'fantastic' flags in the future when ep IX proves me right.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:06 AM on December 28, 2015 [17 favorites]

I saw it initially in 3D and quite enjoyed it. Most of the pleasure comes from the depth of field that the technology allows. Only once does the image really break the frame to come toward you and it's a scene where the bow of the First Order's ship nearly spears you in the face. That was fun, but distracting. I'll be seeing 2D in about two hours so I'll hopefully have insight on how the two compare to each other. Hopefully, I'll see it in Imax 3D on Friday and that'll cover the primary formats.
posted by Atreides at 10:07 AM on December 28, 2015

Our Star Wars Holiday Special - As experience, as ritualistic performance, as society-wide holiday, and as entertainment-industrial-complex, Star Wars is a strange and magnificent and disgusting enterprise. As original story, it’s total crap.

But of course it is. The more interesting question is why we would expect otherwise?"

Because, you simpering gonk of a powerdroid, it's a new movie with new characters that kicks off a new trilogy! Homages are great, everyone loved some of the callbacks to the original movie/trilogy, but lazily copying the same plot is just unforgivable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:13 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

So, who else thinks that General Hux's bizarre rally in front of stormtroopers programmed to cheer him must have had the rest of the Command shaking their heads. Does he get called Grand Moff Wanker behind his back?
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:14 AM on December 28, 2015 [5 favorites]

Thoughts upon 3rd viewing:

- Hux's rally speech is growing on me. Yes, it's bizarre and shrill and over-the-top, but so were (are?) its historical inspirations. Plus that look of true-believer reverence in his eyes when the weapon fires is damn apt.

- The shape of the light and shadow in the abyss that Han falls into is the exact same pattern as the old Imperial sigil. I doubt that's accidental.

- What might Ren be referring to when he says "Don't be afraid, I feel it too" during his interrogation of Rey? Is "it" supposed to be her "Force-awakening"? Some weird mutual attraction? :/

- No friggin' way Rey isn't related to SOMEbody. Too many hints. Han gets like two weird looks on his face about her... Maz says "Who's the girl?" and then we cut away... Constant references to her family. Either she's a Skywalker or a Kenobi or an Antilles or SOMEthing, or she's the next virgin-birth-Chosen-One ... but whatever the case, somebody in the surviving cast knows something.

- One of the X-wing pilots escorting Poe during his big final run looked an awful lot like a Selkath.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:21 AM on December 28, 2015

Re: 3D vs not - I was forced to go to a 3D showing on opening Friday morning, even though it wasn't my preference. And they started the movie playing in 2D - it was funny watching everyone realize slowly that the glasses were doing nothing.

The theater rewound (Rewound? What is this, film?) a few minutes and played the rest of the movie in 3D, so I got to see the Rey meets BB8 scene in both 2D and 3D. And the 3D was - not bad, I guess? It does provide depth, but it makes me feel like I'm looking at the action through a little window on to a deep - but not wider - stage. And on at least one occasion, I literally ducked, so that was good.

But on balance, I would have preferred 2D.

(I was also forced to watch the Martian in 3D, and there I quite liked it, because I though they used a lot of restraint. The spaceship sliding by, the Martian vistas - those were good in 3D.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:39 AM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

Did anyone else think Qui-Gon Jinn was in the background during one of the rebel base scenes? He was on the right hand side, towards the back of a crowd (that was listening to Leia? or watching the maps being assembled? I don't remember exactly which one and have only been to one screening so far).
posted by superna at 10:51 AM on December 28, 2015

Oh, and since I'm back in this thread - we've been re-watching the original trilogy (IV, V, VI) before I take my 8 year old to the theater, and yesterday was the home theater premiere of Return of the Jedi.

Oh, man. That was an *awful* movie. I had much rosier memories of the movie. What was up with that extended Jabba the Hutt section going nowhere? And then those Ewoks. Seriously? You are a golden god, we are adorable teddy bears, we shall worship you, and we've never bothered to do anything about the Empire until today but now we're going to take all the initiative and give our lives for - for what, exactly? The Empire was probably very good for the local economy.

And then those special edition garbage flourishes with scenes of celebration on the other Empire planets and Anakin's Force-ghost. Ugh.

The only saving grace of the movie was the setup with Luke, Vader, and the Emperor, while the helpless Rebel ships were picked off in the background. That still packed a punch.

The new movie has grown even higher in my estimation after watching VI again, without the nostalgia, and without the dreck of the prequels fresh in my mind.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:52 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

THE EXPLODING BREAD THAT REY EATS WAS VERY COOL.

Mallory Ortberg gets it!
posted by ignignokt at 11:02 AM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

speaking of things in background, the scene where the Resistance waves goodbye as Rey and Chewy takes off to find Luke, there's a red protocol droid in the crowd, and from the way it was standing you couldn't see if it had a left arm or not. I wonder if someone took its left arm and put it on C-3PO?
posted by numaner at 11:14 AM on December 28, 2015

I finally watched this again and enjoyed it even more than before. There are actually a lot of little fun details that Abrams snuck in here and there that I enjoyed. So sorry, JJ, I take back everything bad I said about you.

The one detail that still feels weird is Leia hugging Rey when they first meet. There's something going on there...

Also, the movie theater was packed at 11:30 AM on a Monday. What is Disney going to do with even more infinity dollars?
posted by selfnoise at 11:14 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

and we've never bothered to do anything about the Empire until today but now we're going to take all the initiative and give our lives for - for what, exactly?

Well, when your Golden Guy is floating before you and commands you to go to war against the enemy, you gotta do it!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:23 AM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also, the movie theater was packed at 11:30 AM on a Monday. What is Disney going to do with even more infinity dollars?

Buy more congresscritters for the next copyright term extension. Clock's ticking.
posted by phearlez at 11:55 AM on December 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

Return of the Jedi. Oh, man. That was an *awful* movie.

Yes it was RotJ where George Lucas revealed his true colors. I was in my mid-20's when it came out and I watched it with a growing sense of unease. Does this movie have a story? It's like a bunch of set pieces that don't quite add up. They went to the Death Star well again. And then the Ewoks showed up.

After that nothing was capable of disappointing me. George Lucas had sold out his vision to sell plush toys. Not only had the Christmas Special established that the treehouse world was Chewbacca's homeworld, having Chewbacca's homeworld as the scene of the final battle in RotJ would have made a million percent more sense. But hey, plush Ewoks! Nothing that has happened since, including the consecutive prequel train wrecks or the crappy out-of-place post hoc CGI "improvements" he keeps trying to force on us, has been a surprise.
posted by Bringer Tom at 11:56 AM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

The 3D was fairly unobtrusive but also underwhelming -- except the first moment I saw a 3D Star Destroyer just sitting there popping out at me.

As someone who got in trouble because he used his uncle's pre-1980s home movie camera to try to make a Star Wars movie using a Star Wars pop-up book, it felt like I'd waited my whole life for that to happen.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:01 PM on December 28, 2015 [5 favorites]

...we've never bothered to do anything about the Empire until today but now we're going to take all the initiative and give our lives for - for what, exactly? The Empire was probably very good for the local economy.

C3PO just finished giving them a complete history of the rebellion. The Ewoks had either been tolerant of or profiting from the presence of the Imperial shield generator (a significant but not overwhelming installation), and were likely treated reasonably or tolerated in return. But after Threepio's story fills in the details of who those people really were, they turned on the Empire.

Jedi could have been a better movie, but let's be fair on its failings.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:02 PM on December 28, 2015 [8 favorites]

Two things I genuinely appreciated seeing in 3D:

* The logo and subsequent crawl. Kind of an obvious effect, but it looked cool.
* Wires and other bits of stuff hanging down in the foreground as Rey clambered around inside the wrecked starships.

Other than that, it was all extremely subtle. Which is good, because it didn't call attention to itself, but bad I guess in that there was no real "you must see this in 3D" moment to justify the surcharge.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:17 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

I feel like the main "must see this in 3D" part of the film was that theaters have too many goddamn 3D showings. Seriously, I bought tickets early, and could still have gotten 3D tickets for the Thursday or Friday night in any showing, but 2D was sold out entirely almost immediately. That's the only reason I had to wait for 9am on the Saturday to see the movie.

(3D is almost universally terrible for me due to my eyesight, and I haven't seen a 3D movie on purpose in years. I can't wait for it to disappear again, even though I know it will just re-emerge 20 years later as supposedly perfected but still terrible for me.)
posted by tocts at 12:23 PM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

We saw it in 3D because that's the only showing we could get tickets too. My brain got used to it real quick and it wasn't terribly distracting, until I'd forget I was wearing those stupid glasses (over my regular glasses) and tilt my head at the screen and then everything would look fuzzy.

I wish we could all get off the 3D train entirely but in this case it wasn't too bad.
posted by lydhre at 12:32 PM on December 28, 2015

I'll always go out of my way to see 2D because 3D is dumb. I don't want to pay more for a worse experience and I don't want my ticket money to indicate that 3D is desirable.
I'm hoping that seeing 2D screenings sell out whilst 3D doesn't might encourage theatres to put on more 2D.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 12:47 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

Thanks for the info on the 3D version. Sounds like "decent, but nothing amazing" sums it up. Also I can't resist this quote from that silly article about a busy theater linked upthread somewhere. (Note: quoting this is not a statement about all crowds. I am not 2Dist.)

The buy-out crowd had no trailers, so went straight in with an eruptive cheer. The 2D crowd ended their trailers with an explosive cheer that could be heard from outside the building.

The 3D crowd was inexplicably silent throughout the movie, even during the obvious cheer lines, like when Harrison Ford saunters in. I will never understand why.

posted by Nelson at 1:05 PM on December 28, 2015

that was the trenchcoat mafia boys, the boys who joined the military and either washed out or died, the boys who made their own fight clubs out of boredom, the boys who listened to, oh my fucking god, that specific Marilyn Manson cover of Sweet Dreams.

...

I really don't know if JJ Abrams and the other writers, or Adam Driver playing Adam Sackler/his angsty teen self, or anyone else involved in this movie, made Kylo Ren into this specific and very dangerous kind of loser on purpose or if it was some kind of perfect storm of disaster masculinity, but I haven't been able to let it go.

It's interesting that you describe Kylo Ren as being this type of disaffected, radicalizable young man, because you are also describing Adam Driver in his post-adolescence. Apparently he started a parking-lot fight club in his small hometown and subsequently joined the Marines after 9/11 for reasons including patriotism and purposefulness but almost certainly not excluding that same attraction to violence. No word on how he feels about Marilyn Manson, to the best of my knowledge, but he would have been around 13 when that song came out, so I wouldn't be too surprised. So now I wonder: did they write the part this way and cast Driver in order to best express the ideas on the page, or did he take their ideas and infuse them so strongly with his own experiences that it seems like this was always the plan?
posted by Errant at 1:27 PM on December 28, 2015 [7 favorites]

The Force of Secrecy: Spoilers, Neo-Liberalism, and “The Force Awakens”

Please follow me across the fold for some spoilers… more importantly, I’ll be using the sociologist Georg Simmel as a stepping off point to talk about the secrecy/spoilers in global marketing and to assess the film’s implicit politics. Again: WARNING, THERE ARE SPOILERS. Read only if you have been initiated into this secret society or if you think its holy secret is (blasphemy!) trivial.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:31 PM on December 28, 2015

Finally saw the movie Xmas day, and have been thinking about it (and reading this thread) since then. A few points that I don't think have been raised so far:

The opening crawl of Force Awakens versus that of Ep1 says it all, really: the personal vs. the political.
That first shot of the re-jigged Star Destroyer slowly slicing into the frame and eclipsing Jakku was a beautiful visual throwback to the canonical opening shot of Episode IV.
My impression from background reading is that the Empire survivors fled to the Outer Rim and other uncharted wastes in a kind of galactic Operation Odessa after Jedi. The Empire is defeated but still dangerous, leaving it in a Cold War position with the Alliance: diplomatically peaceful, but with a lot of moves taking place under the table. The First Order and Resistance are the "hot war" proxies of these two groups, with Leia playing a kind of Churchillain role post-WW II, warning against the rising nuclear power of the Iron Curtain.
I agree that the Starkiller was kind of jammed in there as the new "Bigger Bad", and that the quest to find Skywalker was leapt over in the last half of the movie. I thought it might have been better if the First Order and Resistance had learned of Luke's position near-simultaneously, and had rushed their forces into position, with the Order trying to incinerate Luke's retreat via an orbital strike. This would still have provided a large set-piece battle, made us care more about the outcome, and tied into the opening plot. Instead, Luke is basically forgotten about until the end of the movie.
As it stands, I think the end was near-perfect: literally passing the baton.

posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 1:58 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

The Force of Secrecy: Spoilers, Neo-Liberalism, and “The Force Awakens”

Er, what? The author makes some legitimate political points later in the essay, but his opening paragraph about spoilers and secrets is completely off its rocker. The events of a Star Wars movie aren't sacred knowledge to be imparted only to the worthy; we're supposed to avoid spoilers because (some/many/most) people like to be surprised by plot twists when watching a movie. The ancient mathematician he describes was murdered by the Pythagoreans because he exposed their secret, but the (joking, I hope) death threats that are going around now are coming from people who don't know the movie plot and don't want to learn it prematurely. We keep spoilers secret purely out of courtesy, not because we gain prestige from withholding information. The two scenarios are so different as to be incomparable.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:14 PM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

The one thing that unites the Star Wars galaxy is commitment to their relative aesthetics, whether that's sleazy desert towns or shiny pointy floating towers. And they'll be damned if they let ugly safety equipment get in the way. This is what I tell myself when I start to feel frustrated about no railings on mile-high buildings.
posted by emjaybee at 3:40 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

We saw the movie again today. Little Rey's hand is definitely being held by Unkar Plutt. Same hand, same voice. (Is that Carson from Downton Abbey? I can't find anything on IMDb. I know Simon Pegg is inside the suit.)

I stand by my original observation that Kylo is toying with Finn in the lightsaber fight. At one point he knocks Finn on his ass and then turns his back to him while he punches his wound to get his aggro up. It reads to me like he's seeing what Finn's got before taking him down.

I enjoyed Harrison Ford's performance. Calling Finn "Big Deal" and just taking absolutely no shit from anyone because he's been around the galaxy too many times.

There is a while performance in Mark Hamill's eyes. And he is definitely standing beside a tombstone.
posted by Fleebnork at 3:58 PM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

What a great thread! A few thoughts:

--I generally disdain 3D, but saw it in 3, then 2D, then opted for 3D for my third viewing. The depth of field it adds really is striking and, for me, made some scenes really engaging.

--it's definitely Obi-Wan's voice saying 'Rey!' during the montage when she first touches the lightsaber. Turns out it's Alec Guiness, crafted from an old audio clip of him saying 'afraid'. While I think it's most likely that obvious answer is obvious and Rey is a Skywalker, it's a legit possibility that she's a Kenobi.

--I don't think Rey just figures out the Force abnormally quickly; my guess is that she was a youngling in Luke's training and has had her memories blocked. So she was remembering how to use the Force, not just figuring it out.

--it remains peculiar to me that Poe vanishes for the second act. It would have taken a 5-second cut scene to let us know what was up with him. Seems to me there is part of the story we have yet to be told. (Poe has been turned! He's a sleeper agent and doesn't know it! Something, because otherwise it's just a sloppy bit in the script.)
posted by LooseFilter at 4:09 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

Also, after 3 viewings, I still don't see the tombstone at the end.
All I see is a retaining wall.
posted by LooseFilter at 4:13 PM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

I think the entire point with Poe was:

1. So Finn has to scramble instead of just relying on Poe.
2. To try and recreate a Han returning to help blow up the Death Star moment.

I think it was just done with the intent of setting up the next film. Poe and Finn have adventures of their own while Rey and Luke do their thing.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:17 PM on December 28, 2015

Also, after 3 viewings, I still don't see the tombstone at the end.
All I see is a retaining wall.

Welp, guess that means you have to go again.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:18 PM on December 28, 2015 [10 favorites]

Had a thought.. This is the first time we've seen a woman learning to use the force. Maybe it's only difficult (and dangerous) for men.

Hence Leia being not all that bothered.. "Oh, that old thing? Yeah, I'll pick it up when I need it"
posted by coriolisdave at 4:19 PM on December 28, 2015 [20 favorites]

Granny Weatherwax would be proud.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:24 PM on December 28, 2015 [9 favorites]

There is a jagged chunk of rock sticking up, right next to where Luke is standing, but it's not immediately obvious as a tombstone.

I'll keep an eye out in 3D tomorrow.
posted by Mezentian at 4:29 PM on December 28, 2015

Hence Leia being not all that bothered.. "Oh, that old thing? Yeah, I'll pick it up when I need it"

I always thought Leia's Force ability was expressed through her extraordinary leadership and ability to inspire people to action.
posted by Fleebnork at 4:49 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

This is the first time we've seen a woman learning to use the force.

Ahsoka Tano
posted by drezdn at 4:51 PM on December 28, 2015 [5 favorites]

“12 Years a Slave was a film that was so much about my body, and Star Wars is not at all. There was a liberation in being able to play in a medium where my body was not the thing in question,” Nyong’o told BuzzFeed News. “The acting challenge I was looking for was completely different, a complete departure from 12 Years a Slave.”
posted by ChuraChura at 4:57 PM on December 28, 2015 [6 favorites]

The question of 3D or not 3D... the film wasn't shot for 3D, it was post-converted. So it's not really designed to be seen in 3D, though you can get something out of that if you see it that way.

I agree with that article that said 3D audiences seem more quiet than 2D audiences. There were a lot more laughs in my first 2D screening than in my first 3D screening - basically on day one and two of release. In fact, some of the really obvious laugh lines fell completely flat in the 3D audience. It was bizarre.
posted by crossoverman at 4:57 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

And I saw it for a third time, in a 2D screening, and the laughs were back. Intriguing.
posted by crossoverman at 4:58 PM on December 28, 2015

Ahsoka Tano

Strictly speaking, we never saw Ahsoka learning the force.
Snips was a serious bad ass from the first.
posted by Mezentian at 5:02 PM on December 28, 2015 [5 favorites]

Did it seem to anyone else that the composition of the image changed radically after Rey reached the island? Not only do they not match the rest of the film, they also don't match the original trilogy. Shots are much more static when compared to TFA, and yet more internally dynamic. In fact, they reminded me very much of the Shanghai sequence from Looper. My theory is that Rian Johnson and his cinematographer Steve Yedlin acted as some sort of uncredited second unit on TFA for the scenes shot on Skellig Michael. Abrams directed the actors via Skype or satellite telephone, but left many of the other specifics of the staging and images to Johnson and Yedlin (except for the helicopter shot at the very end). When the shots for TFA were done, Johnson and Yedlin took over and moved straight into Episode 8 work.

(I got a lot of theories.)
posted by infinitewindow at 5:13 PM on December 28, 2015 [7 favorites]

Upon a second viewing, I do hope that Rian Johnson is better than JJ Abrams at shooting aerial combat. For all his faults, and they are myriad, George Lucas had a real gift for editing and directing the aerial battles in episodes 1, 2, 3 and 4, and I have no doubt that he was consulted extensively on 5 and 6. TFA's battles lacked a sense of spatial awareness of all the combatants, a failing that is more and more common these days.
posted by infinitewindow at 5:18 PM on December 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

For all his faults, and they are myriad, George Lucas had a real gift for editing and directing the aerial battles in episodes 1, 2, 3 and 4

Hey, don't forget Red Tails.
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:21 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

I keep meaning to see that!
posted by infinitewindow at 5:21 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

My son, the literalist debater, hated it. He has a lot of beefs with the film, but the main one was how Rey, who learned about the force like 15 minutes before, was able to defeat Kylo Ren in a light saber battle. He thought it destroyed the whole idea that one had to learn to master the force, and left Kylo Ren as a very non-scary bad guy.

On second viewing, I think the literalist debater is very wrong. If you watch how Rey moves on Jakku when she takes down those men ambushing her for the droid, she is all but a master of close combat, extremely fast and lethal, and a veteran of real combat, not just drills like (presumably) most of Kylo Ren's training.

Normally he would have needed his Force mastery to save his own ass against such a lethally adept opponent, but once she was learning how to withstand his telekinesis and other ways to avoid direct combat... I think a lot of jedi/sith would have ended up in real trouble if they went up against her as injured as Kylo Ren was. Her combat mastery means she didn't need Force mastery to win, just enough resilience from Force attacks to open a window to let direct combat carry the day.

It was weird and mysterious that Rey was able to force-grab the sabre from him, but I expect that is a Non-Accidental Plot Point about which more will be revealed in subsequent movies.

On an unrelated topic:
Rey's Australian-sounding accent bothers me. I assume most people will like it, but it hits a nerve or something for me. ( I'm also not sure if the accent fades into something more Brit as the movie progresses or if I just become more acclimatized to it.)
posted by anonymisc at 5:28 PM on December 28, 2015 [6 favorites]

I dunno, Rey and Finn running from and fighting TIE Fighters in the Falcon has to be up there with the top aerial combat scenes I've ever seen, personally. It's a perfect balance of balletic and visceral, like an airborne John Woo gunfight.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:31 PM on December 28, 2015 [6 favorites]

For all his faults, and they are myriad, George Lucas had a real gift for editing and directing the aerial battles in episodes 1, 2, 3 and 4

Weren't they largely taken from other Hollywood films?
posted by Mezentian at 5:55 PM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

My theory is that Rian Johnson and his cinematographer Steve Yedlin acted as some sort of uncredited second unit on TFA for the scenes shot on Skellig Michael.

I expect this is true as I'm sure there was some talk of scenes from Episode VIII having been shot already. It makes sense that they'd shoot all the island stuff at once.

Rey's Australian-sounding accent bothers me.

It doesn't sound Australian to this Australian. It sounds English and not too far from Ridley's normal accent.
posted by crossoverman at 6:07 PM on December 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

For all his faults, and they are myriad, George Lucas had a real gift for editing and directing the aerial battles in episodes 1, 2, 3 and 4

Weren't they largely taken from other Hollywood films?

You might be thinking of the early rough cuts where Lucas literally inserted shots from WWII movies in place of unfinished effects scenes. Though the resulting battle scenes were undoubtedly influenced by WWII films, which is why the substitution made sense.

Although, actually, this article makes it sound like he used a similar technique in creating essentially pre-vis mockups for the model guys to work from.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:10 PM on December 28, 2015

Upon rewatch, Rey actually was pretty awful in the first part of her duel with Kylo Ren. The entirety of that part was her pretty much deflecting Kylo's attacks and retreating. Even when she takes an aggressive posture, after her self-confidence moment after Kylo offers to teach her the ways of the Force, a lot of her attacks were simply thrusts forward and at Kylo's more unguarded left side where he's injured. Finn is absolutely worthless every time he wields a lightsaber.
posted by Atreides at 6:27 PM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

Watched last night, and have been reading this thread on and off all day and just realized I'm only a third through, so I'm jumping to the bottom to say this.

I saw the movie with my family including a 20yo son and 10yo daughter. I know nothing of the EU outside the movies, knew nothing of this movie, hadn't even seen a trailer.

So I watched. And I've been favoriting many comments in this thread loving Rey as lead because I had tears streaming down my face as her character developed, and as I looked at my 10-year-old, whose face was absolutely glowing.

We had watched 4, 5, and 6 with her over the last week or two (first time she'd seen them). And she understood that Leia was/could have been Luke's equivalent, only she was untrained; she thought the slave costume was "umm... so weird?"; she loved Luke but actually asked me during 5 or 6, "But mama why does it always have to be a boy, why can't it be the girl?"

My son was underwhelmed by TFA, thought the characterization was shallow and wasn't a fan of the plot retread. I didn't care. This was a movie with a star who made my daughter's face shine. (Not to mention the acting was in any case leagues above the originals.) We never had that in the 70s and 80s. As a girl back then, I never really identified with Star Wars.

And I know a lot of girls did! But still, this was a movie that brought the promise of Leia (from way back then) to fruition in an incredibly compelling way, and that accomplishment by itself makes it one of the top two movies in the franchise.

I hope that Rey will be a hero for girls and boys for decades to come. But whether these movies endure like the originals or not, I'm so grateful for what Rey meant to my daughter. And as others have said (way) upthread, I hope Ridley gets all the kudos she deserves for her portrayal of that character.
posted by torticat at 6:51 PM on December 28, 2015 [19 favorites]

For all his faults, and they are myriad, George Lucas had a real gift for editing

Eh, the trilogy was edited by his wife. She won an Oscar for her work on the first one. Then she divorced him, and left the industry.
posted by effbot at 6:51 PM on December 28, 2015 [36 favorites]

Yeah, isn't Rey's accent RP, like most of your Coruscant types? (American accents are for backwater schlubs in Star Wars; RP is for central planet importantness.) I assume her accent is a clue to her identity.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:16 PM on December 28, 2015 [3 favorites]

Okay, so, that was far less disappointing than I was prepared for it to be! A collection of thoughts in somewhat random order:

One thing nobody's really mentioned that took me out of it, even though John Boyega was great as Finn: how does raised-only-for-war Finn learn to talk very much like a normal person almost as soon as he takes off the helmet? I work with military officers and they have some very distinctive vocabulary/ways of talking even when off duty. Since Finn presumably got more brainwashing and less social interaction with non-soldiers than the real-world military people I know, I have difficulty believing his vernacular is so.. normal-dude. Boyega's awesome so I'm willing to let it go but it did pull me out of things, a bit.

Is anyone else wondering if Finn will end up an unwitting agent of the First Order later? (These are the people who gave us Order 66, after all).

The new Rebel pilot helmets look pretty ridiculous. The old ones read as 'slightly fantasied-up fighter pilot helmets,' the new ones have distinctive but really weird shapes.

Was anyone else offput by how quickly Poe went from 'on the ground in a jacket' to 'in his X-Wing in a flightsuit and helmet' and back to 'on the ground in a jacket' in that first scene? I think these are things I only pick up on because I spend time around military people and airplanes, but.. what!? I guess I'll just say it's A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Away and leave my troubled suspension of disbelief at the door.

I agree with points made earlier about how the third act space battle fell a bit flat, especially since it's rehashing the original Star Wars' Death Star sequence, but not as well. I think the film could've worked as well, or better, with some non-planetkiller MacGuffin. "First Order about to overrun Luke's sanctuary" might be a bit too far too soon, though, depending on where they want to go with the next movies.

The more I think about it, the more okay I am with Rey's general competence. She survived many years living in what feels like a refugee camp. Close combat skills? Obviously not the first time she's fought off street toughs. Knowledge of starships? She got paid to work on the Falcon by Shipyard Tyrant Grump. The piloting really took me out of it at the time (how does someone who's only ever driven speeders learn to do THAT?) but 1) I have real life aviation training, so I have ideas of How One Learns To Fly, and as I said before, Galaxy Far Away yatta yatta; 2) once we learn she's force sensitive, it makes sense in hindsight, given what we're told about Luke and Anakin. So, I am pretty much okay with her not being a Mary Sue. I am curious to learn more about her history and how she earned some of those skills. For instance, the Jedi Mind Wipe theory is interesting, though it might end up feeling very contrived -- also hi there KOTOR 1, how's it going?

On the whole it felt good. I definitely got The Feels during the Rey-flying-the-Falcon scene, even given my earlier misgivings. The bits that were ridiculous were at least ridiculous in ways consistent with what we know about the rest of (good) Star Wars.
posted by Alterscape at 7:16 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

raised-only-for-war Finn

He wasn't though, remember? He was in sanitation for a while.

I figure the streaming media selection on the Starkiller is probably really good.
posted by ODiV at 7:49 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yeah, isn't Rey's accent RP, like most of your Coruscant types?

I didn't think so, but I definitely heard some 'strine in there, so much so I looked up her background, and she has a sister in Melbourne.
posted by Mezentian at 8:14 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yeah, you might as well ask why Finn didn't shoot the villagers and decided to go AWOL. He just...did.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:17 PM on December 28, 2015

I believe the "dying squadmate makes futile gesture at Finn during Finn's first actual combat; Finn's training/conditioning cracks and he realizes that maybe killing people for the First Order is not really what he wants to do" moment, and evolution from there. Like I said, I get it -- A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Away, so I am suspending the heck out of my disbelief and enjoying the ride. Just because I noticed it doesn't mean I think it makes the movie bad, or anything -- like I said John Boyega acted the heck out of that role and it mostly worked well! I am definitely looking forward to the next ones, so, mission accomplished, Disney!
posted by Alterscape at 8:24 PM on December 28, 2015

Weren't they largely taken from other Hollywood films?

Most of the battle at Yavin was lifted almost exactly shot-for-shot and line-for-line from Dambusters. There's a youtube video I'm too lazy to go find now; it's really... damning. (⌐■_■) YYYYEAAAAAAH!!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:34 PM on December 28, 2015 [10 favorites]

OK, so it turns out that Poe was originally supposed to die in the TIE fighter crash on Jakku. Abrams changed his mind after meeting with Isaac and added him into the final act, so that's why Poe just kind of disappears for a while.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:36 PM on December 28, 2015

Wow, Battle of Yavin and Dambusters comparison.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:39 PM on December 28, 2015 [14 favorites]

I have seen the movie four times now, with the second two times being after reading the horrible Mary Sue bullshit brought up by rancid garbage people. Which unfortunately influenced the second two viewings because I was looking out for their complaints. However I am happy to report that the additional details I've noticed:

The Final Battle
The filmmakers went to great pains to telegraph that Rey's defeat of Kylo Ren was not because she is an amazing natural swordmaster, but because he was seriously fucked up going into the fight and Finn wore him out first. Like, her baseline fighting experience kept her alive and her Force-ness gave her just enough edge to get one over the already-broken Ren.

First, they spent the whole movie setting the bowcaster up as a laser bazooka and then smacked him with it. They also spend the whole movie emphasizing that he is worlds away for achieving laser calm and balance, and will lose control and throw a tantrum at the slightest provocation. Then they have him kill his dad, they blow up his toy, and a rival for Snoke's fatherly affections and a traitorous stormtrooper waggle Dearest Grandad's lightsaber in his face. And when he faces them he's already breathing heavily, bleeding everywhere, and punching himself in the side. Obviously not top fighting condition.

They further emphasize this through fight choreography--contrast his first swings against Finn to the way he toys with Rey at Takodana. He's not switching between telekinesis and swordsmanship. He's limping. He has trouble moving from his left side. Then they first throw him against Finn, who is not a master swordsman but has had some weapons training. Probably with that stormtrooper-arm-baton thing seen at Takodana. Finn's movements are much more blunt and brutish than Ren, even though Ren's messed up. Finn is ultimately defeated, but tags Ren in the shoulder. I could be wrong, but I remember it as being the shoulder opposite to his bowcaster wound, which means his movement is impeded on both sides.

Then he faces Rey. As we know, Rey basically gets beat back, channels the Force, and then just manages to overwhelm him. But throughout the whole fight it is so obvious Ren is a better swordsman. Rey does a lot of thrusting and overhead slices and basically fights like she's using her stick on Jakku. Finn at least attempted some one-handed work, Rey pretty much sticks with the death-grip on the lightsaber the whole time.

I don't know if this was intentional or I'm seeing things, but I feel like whomever did the fight choreography really had each character's backstory and skillset in mind.

-------------

Rey's Force Usage
At this point I'm convinced Rey had some prior training in using the Force, and gradually forgot all her childhood experiences as children are wont to do in these sorts of storylines. She's getting communiques from old Jedi Masters, she's seeing visions of the Temple massacre that she either saw herself or through Luke, and when we see her as a child the rough-hewn smock looks like it would fit right in somewhere where they put a bunch of kids in a humble uniform to teach them asceticism or something. When she controls the Craigtrooper, it's like she's remembering One Weird Trick she heard about a long time ago.

Not to mention the indications that Han has some idea about her background. When she tells him she never saw this much green in all her life, the camera is not focused on her wondering, excited face. It's focused on his face and his reaction to her words. And he looks sad and a little guilty. Like he knows why she was there, he still thinks it was for the best, but he knows that she's been deprived as a result. Then when Maz Kanata asks him "Who's the girl?" we don't get a shrug or an "I dunno" or a wisecrack. The camera immediately cuts away.

The directors are telling us something about Rey here. I don't know if we're meant to think she's Skywalker's daughter or just a random trainee, but she was something important when she was dumped into the hands of Unkar Plutt. God knows why she was given to him, though. In the novelization it's made clear he's a crime boss. Maybe she was given to smugglers to go somewhere else and they decided to skip on the job.

-----------------------------------

Rey's Technical and Physical Competence
I never understood the complaints about this from the start. First, of course she's learned to fight with something. A person who lives in the midst of a lawless desert, must compete with other scavengers for parts, and literally depends on these parts to survive will not get too far without learning to defend themselves.

Second, with regards to her technical ability--she's been working in spaceship junkyards her whole life! We see her piloting her speeder and shit, and from the way she discussed the Millennium Falcon it sounds like Plutt had her doing modifications and patchwork repair jobs, too. Like, is there any trope more trope-y than the junkyard dog character who ends up Maguyvering our heroes out of situations on account of their junkyard knowledge?

------------------

Rey the Pilot
She drove a speeder bike, she has some experience repairing the spaceship she's flying, she knows the territory she's navigating in Jakku, and she's strong in the Force which in the Star Wars Universe automatically means you are a good pilot Because Reasons.

------------------

Rey the Protaganist
Finally, in all of Rey's successes we see that she's brave, she's talented, and she's also extremely lucky in the way only protagonists can be. She meets all her successes with surprise and childlike wonder--when she's bypasses the compressor her reaction is "Holy fuck I can't believe this worked" not "yeah, move over Solo, I got this." A lot of Rey's successes come from her flying by the seat of her pants and it working out due to a combination of skill, luck, and friends.

-----------------------

What I'm trying to say is that the more I watch the movie the greater appreciation I have for how careful they were to strike a balance between allowing their heroes to win battles while providing enough reasons behind the win to not make the newbies appear irrationally overpowered.
posted by Anonymous at 8:44 PM on December 28, 2015

What I'm trying to say is that the more I watch the movie the greater appreciation I have for how careful they were to strike a balance between allowing their heroes to win battles while providing enough reasons behind the win to not make the newbies appear irrationally overpowered.

Well stated, schroedinger.

After my first viewing I was definitely one of the rancid garbage humans who was calling her a Mary Sue (see upthread for evidence), and after my second I felt bad about it. Honestly, the thing that rang my alarm bells hardest was not necessarily the immediate competence at everything, but the way Han, Chewie, and Leia immediately just adored her after very limited exposure to her. I think I may have actually composed a fanfiction in my head when I was a preteen in which my personal author-insert was offered a second mate position on the Falcon, and even my own personal preteen Mary Sue had to spend a fair bit more time proving I had chops than Rey did. I think once that happened I was like, "Boy, is this movie giving this young woman the benefit of the doubt or what??" and was a little too hard on her from that point forward. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the garbage humans bleating about her are coming from a similar place. Um, i.e., a place of having composed or at least conceived very similar bad fanfiction and being like "Heyyyy did they find my LiveJournal from 2001 or what, what is this even."

After a second watch, I do agree they took more pains than I remembered to make it clear how plausible her existing skillset was. That plus force sensitivity giving her that obnoxious edge most Jedi and their ilk seem to have makes her skills seem like less of a leap.

The immediate adoration still bugs me though! Han and Chewie have been a two-man team for decades and they've known this woman all of half an hour and all of a sudden they're making it a trio?? Han doesn't even really seem to run it by Chewbacca! I don't know. She's useful and pleasant but is she that useful and pleasant? I guess if Han and Leia actually know who she is parents-wise and are playing their cards close to the vest that'd be the missing piece that would make this fit for me. And I'd believe it of Leia...but it seems like Han is pretty well out of the Rebellion rumor mill as the story begins, and he isn't really great at keeping a secret.
posted by town of cats at 9:12 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

You know, you can disagree with someone's opinion without calling them a "rancid garbage person."
posted by entropicamericana at 9:15 PM on December 28, 2015 [5 favorites]

The preferred nomenclature is dianoga, anyway.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 9:16 PM on December 28, 2015 [20 favorites]

My daughter's Galactic Heroes AT-AT is too small to convert because they won't have a little GH Rey

They have a Kylo Ren and a First Order trooper, and they have a fair number of female figures (two different Ashokas, random other jedi) -- I think we will probably get a Rey eventually (we have a LOT of the various eras of these figures), to live in your AT-AT.

Santa brought my son the new GH Wicket and Endoor Playset and his existing C3PO spent the afternoon floating around the tree being adored by two ewoks. Say what you will about ewoks, bu they SELL to 8 year olds.
posted by anastasiav at 10:04 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

Shooting a tie fighter out of the air with a stuck gun jammed in a direction she couldn't see by aiming a ship she hadn't flown before while simultaneously also flying through effectively an asteroid field (without a copilot) is way beyond any feats that even the legendary Anakin ever did as a force-assisted pilot. Let alone Luke or Han.

So that bit really bugs me, because either way it feels like Hollywood BS - either they're dwarfing the Force-prodigy Anakin as clumsily as they dwarfed the Death Star with Starkiller, or some idiot writers figures it's a cool idea and a cool scene so it doesn't matter if it pins the puh-lease meter in a movie where even space-wizards are perfectly acceptable. Though maybe the writers are right and it doesn't bug people the way it bugs me.

It definitely helps though that they in the moment also can't quite believe it really worked, and I give the writers points for trying to come up with something less expected than the TIE simply hitting the walls during the chase, but still, less BS please.

The Mary Sue thing infuriates because it has loaded gender connotations to its dismissiveness; I think if Rey were a man, a different denigration would have been used, but I also think a denigration would have been used - the reason "Mary Sue" thing took off is partly because there is a problem. Though Rey is not a Mary Sue in a proper sense.

It's not the first time this problem has been in Star Wars: child-Anakin was clearly a wish-fulfillment character for kids.

He's a nine-year-old kid who is noticed and respected by the Jedi as soon as they meet him. He gets to pod-race and he's better at it than any adult. In his copious free time as a slave he invents his own robots, he constructs his own racecar... and it's the fastest racecar ever built. Other kids initially make fun of him but he proves them all wrong in front of EVERYONE, everyone wants him and is saying how he's so important, then he gets to break the rules and fly grown-up's spaceships and fight in real space battles and actually wins the entire war for everyone despite being a nine-year-old kid that everyone told to stay put.

Luke is also wish-fulfillment, but only managed about half of what child-Anakin does (comparing ep 1 to 4 to 7)

People were critical of child-Anakin for the same reason they're critical of Rey. But Rey doesn't get the derision as harshly as Anakin did because she's a much better character and the wish-fulfillment isn't as painfully bad, and the movie is better. If child-Anakin is a 10 on wish-fulfillment and Luke is a 6, Rey is probably a 8. And for some people, anything higher than the original 6 is laying it on too thick :)
posted by anonymisc at 10:27 PM on December 28, 2015 [4 favorites]

> The immediate adoration still bugs me though! Han and Chewie have been a two-man team for decades and they've known this woman all of half an hour and all of a sudden they're making it a trio?? Han doesn't even really seem to run it by Chewbacca! I don't know. She's useful and pleasant but is she that useful and pleasant?

I just watched Star Wars (IV) with my parents tonight, after watching TFA the other day. Chewie is called a walking carpet by Leia and then only moments later they are both hugging in joy when they make the escape. Leia is also co-piloting with Chewie during the escape from the Death Star while Han and Luke are shooting down the TIE fighters pursuing them. Thick of thieves those two by the end of the first movie, even if Leia can't stand Han (and its supposedly Chewie who talks Han into helping the rebels by the end).

And when Han is packing up to leave the rebel base, he tries to recruit Luke to join his crew. The dude is always looking for good talent.

Friends and trust are made fast in this series.

And I think Chewie is a progressive, not intimidated by strong female leaders, type of Wookie, which also explains why he always has powerful female friends everywhere he goes, and why he doesn't seem to have a problem co-piloting with Rey.

> Rey the Pilot

Also, its said really quickly but in the post combat, before they get picked up by Han "OMG did you see that?" moment, Rey goes something like "I've flown plenty on simulators before, but never this!"

In Star Wars, we are never told of Luke's ability as a pilot at all or shown it, until he says "I used to bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home." Then it was retconned all to hell to justify that T-16s were commonly used by Rebel forces as training platforms for the x-wings because they had similar fly control systems, etc.

So again, if anything, we've been given more evidence to justifying Rey's ability to do anything she does in the film . Literally there is a two beat structure to everything - Poe is tortured so you know what is in store for Rey. Rey fights off the folks stealing BB-8 so you aren't surprised by her handling a saber later. The power conductor / fuse / whatever part we see her salvage at the opening of the film is in the exact same type of compartment and similar shape as the door control mechanism she rips out at the Starkiller Base to open the hallways for Han and Chewie. Honestly the only thing we don't get previews of in the movie is her Force grab of the saber and the mind control, she even misses on her second try of firing a blaster (the first time not having undone the safety).

Luke takes down the TIE fighters no problem in the gunner position, but has never done combat training before. Same for firing a blaster. The same day his surrogate parents were killed (or soon after) he is wielding a lightsaber and dodging a training droid blasts. He somehow knows how to swing himself and Leia over a ravenne but why would he need that ability on a flat desert like planet? Rey navigates her way around the Starkiller Base and through all the secret service ducts because we've been shown she's been living in the ruins of Empire designed and built starships - I'm sure they all have standard power couplings and service ducts and fuse boxes - you think they just have standards on "giant moon to planet sized weapons" and not also have standard issue power access panels?

Rey is more convincing of a first introduction character than most other movies have ever done. Same for Finn. Poe is harder, but we have the power of the intro scroll to tell us "he's a fucking good pilot."

It's amazing, if you think of the character introductions we've gotten - solely from any of the movies of the series, not from the EU, there are more reasons for Rey and Finn to be good at what they do than most other characters. I think if anything there is baggage because we assume all of those things have to be the result of Jedi Force Magic (since that was the hand wavy reasons for the poor character development the first time around) and losing the point that Rey is good at doing these types of things already, so now she is doing another variation of those things in a slightly different setting and slightly better because she is growing confident in herself and is realizing in some cases she has the Force.

My other late night hypothesis is that Leia, while Force sensitive, decided to not become a Jedi because the Rebels/Resistence still needed her so she couldn't disappear to Dagobah, and she wanted to be with Han. But that Force sensitivity is what also connects her immediately to Rey and they feel the mutual lose of Han. As for Chewie / Leia not hugging, I'm going with "Chewie is busy making sure Finn is ok, since Finn patched him up."
posted by mrzarquon at 10:33 PM on December 28, 2015 [18 favorites]

The immediate adoration still bugs me though! Han and Chewie have been a two-man team for decades and they've known this woman all of half an hour and all of a sudden they're making it a trio??

I guess I didn't really see any of it as unbridled adoration? More general likeability combined with individual character motivations.

First and foremost--like I've posited, Han and others know something about Rey that we don't. Another thing I didn't mention in my previous comment: note that Maz Kanata's encounter with her and the lightsaber comes after the conversation with Han. Her bestowing the lightsaber on Rey is not random. It's not "hey, this total stranger seems cool." When Rey chases after Finn to get him to stay Han and Maz have the yet-unknown conversation, and whatever was said there leads to Maz pushing Luke's lightsaber into her hands. Could be a Skywalker baby. I'm betting that they're hoping Luke will come back if one of his old trainees shows up with his own lightsaber.

Second, however you feel about her, she's a likeable character in-Universe. She's earnest, she's brave, she's friendly, she's got naivete and childish wonder coming out her butt and stares at everyone related to the Rebellion with big, hero-worshiping goo-goo eyes.

Third, her involvement specifically in the Falcon is a mix of Han's own baggage and circumstance. She proved herself to be mechanically competent and she knew all the dumb ways the ship was modified in the junkyard. So when Chewie's arm got hit and he couldn't co-pilot she was the obvious choice.

From an emotional standpoint, the Han we see in this movie is a sad, tired shell of who he was in RotJ. That tough-guy smuggling exterior was weakened by years of marriage, fatherhood, then watching it all fall apart after his wife betrayed him*, his son rejected him, murdered a whole lot of Jedi, and one of his best friends disappeared. His ship was stolen, he and Chewie are piloting a clunker, and they're hauling a bunch of rathtar that ate the rest of the crew. Suddenly a young kid sweeps in with his old ship, big hero-worshiping eyes, similar interests, and a desire to find aforementioned friend and save the galaxy. Oh, and could he please be her dad?

(Chewie liking her is a no-brainer. Chewie has always been the softie, and after spending the entire movie having Adventures with him, somewhat competently doing mechanical stuff, and basically worshiping everyone involved in the Rebellion, it is not surprising he'd be OK with her as his co-pilot)

FINALLY,

I would argue that the amount people like her and help her isn't unrealistic, either. Remember: while Han and Chewie may have allowed her on the ship, when it came time to actually rescue her Han repeatedly argued with Finn against rescuing her in favor of blowing the base up. Remember "People are counting on us! The entire galaxy is counting on us!" Remember the argument over placing detonators vs. finding Rey? Remember "Escape first, hugs later"?

The only reason they got her at all was because Finn tricked the entire Resistance into believing he wanted to disable the shields when really, he just wanted to get Rey. Because Finn is twitterpated. Contrast this to Return of the Jedi and the rescue mission for Han. Contrast this to Han and Chewie coming back to help in A New Hope.The Classic characters are not beyond doing heroic things for friendship provided they care enough. In Rey's case, only Finn cared enough. Everyone else got roped in.

Nothing Han did seemed crazy our out-of-character to me. After all, in the end when he walks out on the catwalk it's not for Rey--it's for Ben.

The one quibble I have is how Leia and Chewie passed each other by at the end and she hugged Rey. I hope there is a reason for that later on, because otherwise that's just cold, man. But, you know, in the original trilogy they always spent more on the feelings of the humans than the aliens. Those speciesists!

*In the novelization it's made more clear that Leia knew their son was being pulled to the Dark Side, knew it was Snoke specifically after him. She sent him out to Luke--but she never told Han about any of the reasons for that. Han didn't find out his son was idolizing Sith Lords until it was too late. What a gut-punch. That is the major reason they broke up.

----------------------

You know, you can disagree with someone's opinion without calling them a "rancid garbage person."

I am making a reference to this article, which addresses the criticism from a cultural standpoint. Ultimately I think this is the best response to the Anti-Rey Brigade. I personally love the film minutiae and analysis and fanwankery (as my pages of comments will attest), but those things ultimately don't get to the heart of the issue.
posted by Anonymous at 10:49 PM on December 28, 2015

Speaking of laying it on thick, almost every time that Poe has a scene, someone manages to find a way to mention that wow, he's the bestest darned pilot in the fleet!

It's kind of like the recurring theme in Red Dwarf where everyone who meets 'Ace' Rimmer ends up saying "Wow, what a guy!", so I think it'll be good drinking-game material. :-)

(I assumed the constant references were priming the character to spin off into his own series, but if it was only a late decision for him to even survive the TIE crash, then who knows.)
posted by anonymisc at 10:56 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

Said very eloquently, mrzarquon. Nothing Rey or Finn does is a surprise, based on what we see and hear earlier in the movie. You can argue things are a stretch--but as mrzarquon points out they aren't any more of a stretch than you'll see in the other movies.

I'd really encourage any doubters to see TFA again keep their eyes out for these things. Noticing these details was part of what made the movie so enjoyable to watch again and again. Aside from, you know, the childlike glee at the opening scroll.
posted by Anonymous at 11:10 PM on December 28, 2015

I mean, I'm going to go with that one being more unrealistic than Rey piloting a ship she was familiar with through a ship graveyard she was familiar with and "only" needing to flip upside down so Finn could get a shot.

No, it's completely the opposite to me - Finn did not aim the shot, the gun was completely jammed in a direction unknown to the pilot other than "down", she aimed a gun without knowing where it was pointing, with ridiculous precision to shoot a tie out of the air, and he noticed the shot was lined up and somehow pulled the trigger while it was still lined up. Physics and motion don't work like that.

Compare that to Luke getting off a shot that the Alliance believed was within the capabilities of non-force-assisted regular-joe pilots, where the expectation that regular pilots would make that shot was in fact the entire plan.

No comparison. One concept was ridiculous, the other was Dam Busters (literally).
posted by anonymisc at 11:10 PM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]

My immediate assessment post-viewing was "That was more Star Wars than all of the prequels put together

I saw a toy advert with some blond kid and his sister getting into imaginary light saber battles right before the film, and that was Star Warsier than the prequels. I am not joking.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:19 PM on December 28, 2015 [8 favorites]

No, it's completely the opposite to me - Finn did not aim the shot, the gun was completely jammed in a direction unknown to the pilot other than "down", she aimed a gun without knowing where it was pointing, with ridiculous precision to shoot a tie out of the air, and he noticed the shot was lined up and somehow pulled the trigger while it was still lined up. Physics and motion don't work like that.

OK, yeah, but that is not what happened? Like I said, I've seen the movie four times now. The whole point is that Finn communicated to her that it was jammed perpendicular to the belly of the ship, she rolled so he could get the shot off, and he got the shot off. It was a team effort. They even had a little scene after they were flying away where the two of them were jumping around like little kids praising each other's skills and asking each other how they did that. EDIT: When I catch a matinee this week I will check on this and report back, if you like.

Also, if you are mad at the physics in Star Wars then the franchise may not be for you. I hate to tell you this, but in the first Star Wars movie ever they introduced these laser-swords called "lightsabers", claimed there's a magical force that grants users superpowers, and the ships make sounds in space. No scientific consultant at all, obviously. Ridiculous.
posted by Anonymous at 11:23 PM on December 28, 2015

I have to say the soundtrack disappointed me. The stark piano from the trailer grabbed me harder than anything that made it to film. That surprised me.
posted by mazola at 11:36 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]

OK, yeah, but that is not what happened? Like I said, I've seen the movie four times now. The whole point is that Finn communicated to her that it was jammed perpendicular to the belly of the ship, she rolled so he could get the shot off, and he got the shot off. It was a team effort.

You need to watch it again. He communicated the vague general direction of the gun, without precision, and he did not interact with the gun until she had already aimed it on a moving target... and kept it on target while he figured out to shoot, while simultaneously doing several other things each on their own as impressive as anyone else ever did.

I hate to tell you this, but in the first Star Wars movie ever they introduced these laser-swords called "lightsabers", claimed there's a magical force that grants users superpowers, and the ships make sounds in space. No scientific consultant at all, obviously. Ridiculous.

Being flippant and mocking and misunderstanding how the first film set boundaries doesn't make movie weaknesses go away. There are endless ways that the TIE-shot scene could have been massaged to carried its payload without being ridiculous. Maybe they dropped the ball in the editing room and it nearly was fine. I'll just have to mentally look the other way and pretend things happened more like the way you believe they happened.
posted by anonymisc at 11:36 PM on December 28, 2015

You know, you can disagree with someone's opinion without calling them a "rancid garbage person."

Good thing nobody here did that, then!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:44 AM on December 29, 2015

Yeah. Here we call people stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf herders.
posted by Mezentian at 12:55 AM on December 29, 2015 [7 favorites]

What was distracting to me about the score was how well it was played. Seriously, if you want to know how good orchestral players have gotten in the past 40 years, just compare the performances of the opening fanfares in IV and VII. The LA players for VII are so good that it's a little distracting during the movie.

Also, if you do compare, note that the fanfare for VII has a particular energy none of the other films have. Williams invited his friend Gustavo Dudamel to conduct this fanfare, and you can hear the difference.
posted by LooseFilter at 4:17 AM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

If you're interested, for comparison:

Episode IV opening fanfare

Episode VII opening fanfare
posted by LooseFilter at 5:15 AM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

There are endless ways that the TIE-shot scene could have been massaged to carried its payload without being ridiculous. Maybe they dropped the ball in the editing room and it nearly was fine. I'll just have to mentally look the other way and pretend things happened more like the way you believe they happened.

Maybe the shot is the way it is because it's awesome. Both times I've seen it in theater I loved it. I can get plenty analytical too, but watching Star Wars, you have to shut off the physics part of your brain. These movies have spaceships that bank and fly like airplanes in space. None of it makes any sense with regard to physics.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:07 AM on December 29, 2015 [7 favorites]

Seriously, chill out you guys.
posted by h00py at 6:12 AM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

> No, it's completely the opposite to me - Finn did not aim the shot, the gun was completely jammed in a direction unknown to the pilot other than "down", she aimed a gun without knowing where it was pointing, with ridiculous precision to shoot a tie out of the air, and he noticed the shot was lined up and somehow pulled the trigger while it was still lined up. Physics and motion don't work like that.

I never assumed this was a complicated setup for a shot - that somehow Rey was planning to do just that. The Millennium Falcon has forward facing guns also, so I thought she was trying to lose it (which is what Finn said to do - "the turret is stuck in forward position, you're going to have to to lose it") / get behind it so she could use the forward cannons. It was Finn who was hot on the trigger and realized that with head over end roll that would line up the tie fighter and he took the shot.

Their amazement with each other once they get into space I thought communicated that pretty well - "holy crap did you see that?" "yeah, I mean wow, I wasn't planning for that to happen, that was awesome" etc.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:48 AM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

Fleebnork:

"Maybe the shot is the way it is because it's awesome."

When the gun jammed and Rey went flying through the thing, my immediate thought was, "Oh come on, don't do the same old 'fly though a tight space and make the pursuing ships crash' thing you do in every other movie. Have her do a flip and shoot the tie fighter with the jammed gun belly up! That'd be fuckin' awesome!"

And that's what they did. And it was Good.
posted by charred husk at 6:48 AM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]

The Finn/Rey dogfight scene where Rey cuts the engines to drop the Falcon so that the Tie ends up flying straight towards it and right into the line of the shot is one of my favorite bits of Star Wars ever. I understand that obviously some folks have objections, but to me it is the epitome of what I love about Star Wars. It is triple distilled awesome. So, I find it ironic that it is being held up as a way the movie falls apart for some folks. I guess it just proves you can't satisfy everyone at the same time.

(But, I'm predictable in what I love about my space movie maneuvers. This move is top three along with the Firefly Crazy Ivan - also a highly improbably maneuver pulled off through teamwork and amazing piloting.)
posted by meinvt at 6:52 AM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]

Rey is good at flying things, and has had a bunch of practice (as mentioned in the book) and was very familiar with the Falcon. Finn is really good at shooting things, a skill he demonstrated when Poe and him were escaping in the TIE fighter.
posted by drezdn at 6:53 AM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, it helps that the contractor that manufactures turbo-lasers has a "zero-armor" approach to planned obsolescence so that they can keep selling replacement kits.
posted by meinvt at 6:56 AM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

I plan to see it again on Friday to pick up on things I MISSED AGAIN, but regarding the cannon on the belly of the Falcon, I think Finn definitely conveyed enough information to Rey its position. Rey flipped the Falcon forward, but at that point, it was entirely up to Finn to fire the cannon at the right time to hit the TIE. It was a team effort, granted a significant amount of it made possible by Rey's incredible skills. At the least, it probably wasn't that much harder than bullseyeing a womp rat.

Also, Tatooine is not a flat desert planet. Remember, R2 is found in a canyon and later in Phantom Menace, the pod racing goes through canyon/stone buttes. Sorry, this going back to a Luke comment earlier....cause FAN NITPICK.

I think a lot of problems people have with the movie resolve themselves with further viewings.
posted by Atreides at 7:30 AM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

mazola, the score is indeed a little disappointing compared to the original films (and even the prequels, for that matter--the music was one of the few consistently good things about them), mostly in the way that it contains a lot of quoting and lifting of old themes without introducing a lot of new stuff. But I want to distinguish that for me disappointing doesn't mean bad... there are some tracks I find myself returning to over and over, mostly the ones near the end of the album--Torn Apart, The Ways of the Force, Scherzo for X-wings, and Jedi Steps. I thought Rey's theme and Kylo Ren's theme were effective, too. I really liked the use of Burning Homestead when Rey catches the lightsaber, too, but it's lifted directly from IV and isn't even on VII's soundtrack release.

The music in the trailer, incidentally, wasn't arranged by Williams (and I don't think that spare piano portion you're referring to was even composed by him.) It is wonderful and hugely compelling, though, to the point that I wish it were available as an official track somewhere. You can find dialogue-removed/re-scored versions of it floating around if you look hard enough, but they're naturally not at the quality an official release would be.
posted by Kosh at 7:47 AM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

I didn't understand why Finn wasn't in the dorsal turret in the first place. *shrug*

Anyway, most of the amped-up stuff in TFA that rankles me I just chalk up to the post-Matrix requirement for all the action in any given movie to be "XTREEEEEM." (i.e. the bowcaster flipping stormtroopers head over heel, super-sized Death Star, etc.) That doesn't mean I have to like it, though. Anyway, like I said upthread, in that sense, this movie is a product of its time. At least Rey and Ren weren't flipping around like goddamn idiots during the duels.

PS: Anything that needs to be explained, justified, or improved by ancillary material is poor writing. Prequel fans (they exist!) are particularly egregious with that nonsense. And I appreciate that TFA doesn't feel obligated to explain everything to me or wrap up every hanging thread! I don't need everything spelled out for me, just make it internally consistent please.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:52 AM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

What bugged me about Rey's incredible Force power development isn't that it's "implausible". The whole concept of space magic is implausible. What bugs me is Rey's remarkable power could undermine one of the great narrative themes of the original trilogy, the difficulty and necessity of Jedi training. There was a whole movie which was basically "Luke needs to find his Shaolin Master in a swamp". And we see Luke struggle to learn to use The Force. And the deeper struggle, the internal fight against using this power for evil. This morality play is what elevates the original trilogy into a fable rather than just a good adventure.

I want these new films to have as much moral weight as the original. There's still plenty of time for that; in the original trilogy that complicated stuff with Jedi training mostly came in the second movie. So maybe Rey will have her own struggles, her own need for training. I mean she did seek out Luke there in the end, setting up Luke to be her Miyagi. Add a touch of forgotten Jedi training as a child to her Mysterious Past (as suggested in her vision on touching Excalibur) and it's all pretty well settled.

I'm also hoping they turn Kylo Ren into something more interesting than just a petulant Sith Boy. They did a good job setting him up, I think. I loved moonlight on vermont's comment connecting Kylo Ren to contemporary themes of toxic masculinity.
posted by Nelson at 7:53 AM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

Anyway, most of the amped-up stuff in TFA that rankles me I just chalk up to the post-Matrix requirement for all the action in any given movie to be "XTREEEEEM."

haha, I thought it was going back to the E. E. "Doc" Smith power curve. I think by the end of the fourth book they were throwing stars (maybe galaxies) at the enemy....

A friend and I were discussing the films, and he thinks that Imperial Engineers don't really redesign so much as project the blueprints at the wrong scale, shrug, and then build the giant version of whatever it is they are working on. It's possible Snoke's projector has the same problem.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:24 AM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

Upon further beanplating, I think that if Snoke is Darth Plagueis it would work really well:

Plagueis was, according to Darth Sidious, the one Sith Lord to figure out how to use the Force to attain immortality. Sidious brags in relating this story because he is the one who was clever enough to finally kill Plagueis, his master.

Sidious was clearly preoccupied with attaining worldly power, hence the creation of his identity as Palpatine, overthrow of the Republic and creation of the Empire. This preoccupation is because, as a mortal, it's the scale on which he operates and lives. But Plagueis, as an immortal, would likely be much less concerned with worldly or political power. He doesn't live in that world, and the one thing that would be truly threatening to him is the imperishable light side of the Force.

If Plagueis really is so powerful that he can use the Force to attain immortality, perhaps he's been the puppet master all along, playing a very long game to exterminate the Jedi and extinguish the light side of the Force (again, his only real threat).

So Plagueis allows Sidious to 'murder' him, knowing he'll pursue power and kill most or maybe even all of the Jedi; he manipulates the Force to create life, with Anakin, both to help Sidious and to get a jump start on that prophecy about there being one who brings balance to the Force, so Sidious takes that bullet for him; he then creates the First Order to finish the job.

Luke may have figured all of this out too, and realized that the work of restoring balance to the Force was never about too much dark or light, but rather about eliminating the one individual who has figured out how to use the Force to fundamentally abrogate the laws of a temporal universe, and who thus presents an existential threat to the whole galaxy as a result.

This would provide a solid narrative line through all nine movies, and be a truly WTF reframing that echoes the pattern in the series so far (I am your father; the Emperor is the real big bad; Palpatine is Sidious). It would also create a real dramatic need for Luke's character, because he hasn't actually accomplished his purpose of bringing balance to the Force yet, and the galaxy is in real danger.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:30 AM on December 29, 2015 [8 favorites]

If Plagueis doesn't care about worldly or political power, then why are the good guys a threat to him, or vice versa? If he managed to fake out Palpatine and go totally unnoticed by Yoda et al through the whole Empire debacle, he's already won the attain-immortality-and-stay-off-the-radar game, so why reveal himself now and mess around with the Solo kid? His sobriquet being "The Wise" and all, you don't get the sense that he was all about the UNLIMITED POWAH thing that Palpatine got into. So, like, what's his motivation?
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:31 AM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

I tried to catch up with this thread but ... it's impossible. So I'm sure I'll be saying things that have already been said 63 times.

First, I love Rey so much that I feel like her existence as a character would pretty much eclipse any other flaws in the film. It was just such a thrill to watch her, both the actress and the character. I frankly do not care if she is a Mary Sue because it is so delightful to see a movie that centers around setting a tough, talented young woman on the Hero's Journey.

I had a thought yesterday that almost made me cry: when I was growing up playing Star Wars on the playground, we would always fight over who got to play Luke, because he was the hero. I definitely remember being told that I couldn't be Luke because I was a girl. Kids will now (maybe? I hope) grow up fighting over who gets to play Rey.

On Rey's identity: I'll be fine if she's Luke's daughter, because the whole series seems to be a family saga about the Skywalkers. But one thing that seems weird to me: wouldn't Luke or whoever rescued her have found her a better foster family? He had his aunt and uncle, but Rey seems to be completely on her own, in extreme poverty. And the way she longs for her family makes me think that she didn't have one growing up. That just stuck out as something a little bit weird.

That said, I enjoyed the hell out of this movie and I'm so excited for the rest. I'm a middling Star Wars fan. I was born in the late 70s so I grew up with Star Wars as constant background noise (had some of the toys, used to "play Star Wars" on the playground, etc., constant cultural references), but I've never been a die-hard fan; no EU, probably have seen each of the OT once or twice.

Which I think makes me the perfect audience for this film, because I know enough of the story to get those resonant bits, and have the John Williams score hard-wired into my brain enough that just hearing it is enough to push those emotional buttons, but I wasn't invested enough to have expectations that could be dashed. My only hope was that it would be better and more entertaining that the prequels, which were pretty much irredeemable for me.
posted by lunasol at 9:37 AM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]

So, like, what's his motivation?

I'm thinking he's in a conflict with the Force itself, trying to finally and fully bring it to heel. The Force doesn't need will or other anthropomorphization to be fighting Plagueis's immortality--if it's part of the reality, the physics of this particular galaxy, then as a natural force it would exert towards equilibrium. Plagueis, in figuring out how to manipulate the Force to create life and find immortality, has so severely violated the sustainable balance the Force needs, that it's throwing everything it can at him to stop him from winning a permanent disequilibrium that could, I dunno, destroy the galaxy or something. Like, Plagueis is trying to become a god, and the Force is trying to prevent that.

(So, ultimately I guess Plagueis wants power, just not political, worldly, temporal power. He wants to be literally the immortal master of the Force. Yeah.)

This is what happens when I start really beanplating during a long flight, apparently.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:13 AM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

Eh, the trilogy was edited by his wife. She won an Oscar for her work on the first one. Then she divorced him, and left the industry.

Marcia Lucas: The ‘secret weapon’ behind Star Wars (Previously)
posted by larrybob at 10:42 AM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

Well, you might be right. "Palpatine, but bigger" isn't enormously satisfying to me as a Star Wars lore nerd, though.

What's sort of killing my fanwanking buzz with respect to TFA is that all the elements of the story seem to have been predicated on setting up the game board so it's exactly like it is in the original trilogy: here's your Rebels/Empire setup, here's your planet-destroying superweapon, here's your holographic puppet-master dark lord, etc. But hey, this isn't a reboot, everything just happened to shake out after RotJ such that the galaxy would be in exactly the same scenario as thirty years ago.

The prequels, for all their tragic flaws, and god help me even the Expanded Universe, for all its incoherent metastasized terribleness, did expand the Star Wars universe. TFA, despite being a really good movie, feels really conservative in how it pulls the frontiers back and recenters Star Wars around its safest, most trustworthy elements.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:44 AM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

Yep, the prequels, which expanded our universe by taking us back to Tatooine three times, making Anakin the creator of C3PO, making Boba Fett Sr. the template for clonetroopers, and shoehorning Chewbacca in there for some reason. (I'm sure I'm forgetting something.)
posted by entropicamericana at 10:55 AM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]

> TFA, despite being a really good movie, feels really conservative in how it pulls the frontiers back and recenters Star Wars around its safest, most trustworthy elements.

... by design, probably?

After the shitshow of the prequels, Disney bought the property at the (in retrospect) pittance of $4B [*], but they need to put the franchise on a firm footing for the long term, and that means a return to the truest tried-and-tested roots.

I'm sure JJ had the strictest instruction: Do NOT fuck this up. Just set up the franchise for the next ten years, and we'll throw money at you.

[*] Activision bought Candy Crush - Candy Crush! - for $5.9B.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:55 AM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]

Yep, the prequels, which expanded our universe by

The failings of the prequels are well-documented at this point.

... by design, probably?

Without question. And there definitely seems to be a consensus that Abrams did not fuck things up. I liked the movie a lot. I remain disappointed with the stealth-reboot elements of the plot, though. Especially the Resistance/First Order stuff. Hell, they could have actually destroyed Coruscant in TFA, but instead they moved the seat of the Republic to a system we've never heard of so they could blow it to bits without leaving a hole in the sandbox. They wanted the dramatic moment but not the attendant consequences. At least with Alderaan you knew it was somebody's home planet.

I wonder if they would have been so bold as to kill off Han Solo if Ford had been game to appear in the next two movies.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:06 AM on December 29, 2015

mazola, the score is indeed a little disappointing compared to the original films (and even the prequels, for that matter--the music was one of the few consistently good things about them),

"Duel of the Fates" in Episode I remains one of the most epic themes I've ever heard in my life and I don't care who knows it

I really don't know if JJ Abrams and the other writers, or Adam Driver playing Adam Sackler/his angsty teen self, or anyone else involved in this movie, made Kylo Ren into this specific and very dangerous kind of loser on purpose or if it was some kind of perfect storm of disaster masculinity, but I haven't been able to let it go. Apologies for the wank storm, you guys.

This is a great comment. And his worship of Darth Vader fits in perfectly of this. He idolizes a particular performance of masculinity from generations ago without appreciating how it ate its performer from the inside out. Tie this to the MRA and Trump types who want things to go back to "the way they were"--without acknowledging their vision is essentially a facade for a landscape full of tremendous pain and suffering.
posted by Anonymous at 11:26 AM on December 29, 2015

Finn is absolutely worthless every time he wields a lightsaber.

how come nobody remembers that he manages to slice Ren in the right shoulder before Ren was like this is going on too long and takes him down.
posted by numaner at 11:29 AM on December 29, 2015

In further "celebrity sidelines" news - Sergio Mendes, of all people, has paid homage to the new film by posting a photo from 1970 of a 28-year-old Harrison Ford, back when he was just "the carpenter who built my studio".

Harrison is a bit of a scruffy-looking nerd herder in the photo, but in a good way.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:30 AM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

Fanfare: Though maybe the writers are right and it doesn't bug people the way it bugs me.
posted by numaner at 11:38 AM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

I managed to totally win myself over to the "Rey is pretty great, and her achievements fit in with the way main characters have always worked in Star Wars" side by the time I wrote my comment up-thread, in case that was ambiguous. One part of me still wishes for a bit more "struggle to go from merely pretty good to incredible" moments, rather than "ok, here's the (awesome) payoff to mostly-offscreen setup," but then I realize that she's got two movies to struggle with all the Jedi stuff and it starts to make a bit more sense. That may be where she really has to struggle and 'earn it,' as it were. Also, since her past is shrouded in mystery, we may get some information about it later that makes it all a bit more sense, either in future films or in EU tie-ins. In any case, she's a badass awesome character played by an actress who seems really solid, and is doing stuff I think we culturally need, so I'll take it. The "Rey gets to be awesome" scenes definitely resonated with me emotionally and had me grinning and/or crying (not going to lie, it got a bit dusty in the theater during that first Falcon sequence).

As an aside: I would almost have loved for there to be more 'Rey in her badass scavenger getup' action -- that was a great costume even if it existed almost entirely for the 'wait, this is a woman!' reveal. For example, let her put on the goggles/balaclava while she's riding her speeder back to town, you know? In some ways it would've made more world-sense for her to put it on when she left the Star Destroyer wreck, even if it made more story-sense for her to be wearing it and then take it off for the reveal). Then again, it covers her face which makes acting a lot harder, so I understand why they didn't do it.

The grognard in me still wants Finn to talk a bit more like he was raised in a rigid military hierarchy with limited socialization or access to the outside world, but he's certainly easier to relate to the way he's written, so, like I said, I'm willing to accept it because A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Away.
posted by Alterscape at 11:43 AM on December 29, 2015

> The grognard in me still wants Finn to talk a bit more like he was raised in a rigid military hierarchy with limited socialization or access to the outside world, but he's certainly easier to relate to the way he's written, so, like I said, I'm willing to accept it because A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Away.

I'm going with "he's been a caring / sensitive person this entire time, but has had to keep those feelings under wraps under threat of death / re-education" - now he's opening up to what he truly is and enjoying it. Which for all the slash fiction authors out there could also be a coming out story for him when he discovers all his feelings for his comrades.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:54 AM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

#Force4Ham has upped the game since the movie's release!
posted by kmz at 11:59 AM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

Hell, they could have actually destroyed Coruscant in TFA, but instead they moved the seat of the Republic to a system we've never heard of so they could blow it to bits without leaving a hole in the sandbox. They wanted the dramatic moment but not the attendant consequences.

I sort of feel like they couldn't win for losing, though, because while I agree with you on this point, I also would put down money that if they had blown up Coruscant instead, everyone would have read that as the categorical repudiation of the prequels many were hoping for. I think they probably had to be pretty careful about not including stuff that can be read as "fuck George Lucas", which is amateur hour however much some fans might wish for it.
posted by Errant at 12:03 PM on December 29, 2015 [6 favorites]

Coruscant existed before the prequels so I don't know if it would be a repudiation. But I did like the idea of a moving Senate.
posted by Anonymous at 12:12 PM on December 29, 2015

I thought it was Coruscant when I was watching the movie. It didn't seem like a middle finger to the prequels to me, but rather like a huge raising of the stakes, which is why it seemed odd that nobody in the movie seemed to lose stride over it.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:16 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

The whole "let's blow up a whole bunch of planets using an outlandish-even-for-Star-Wars weapon but nobody really cares" thing was a part of the movie I choose not to think about too hard. The scene where the rebels look up and see the freaky sun-beam-weapon and exploding planets overhead worked emotionally even if it made no bloody goddamn sense. Then again, this is a universe with space wizards and magic laser swords, as Schroedinger said up front, so I choose to not look at it to hard because the parts that worked really worked, and it felt Star Wars-y.
posted by Alterscape at 12:22 PM on December 29, 2015

how come nobody remembers that he manages to slice Ren in the right shoulder before Ren was like this is going on too long and takes him down.

Finn gets in what almost amounts to as a lucky shot. His best skill might have been not to be killed out right by Kylo.

I also found Finn's personality a bit big for someone who has been part of a brainwashing military structure. Though, it does fall into something I did appreciate: humanizing the storm troopers. It happens in ANH, when we watch Kenobi sneaking into a chamber to turn off the tractor beam on the Death Star, where two guys are standing there, obviously bored and asking whether it's a drill or not. We have the awesome "NOPE" moment in TFA, as well the bloody hand of a dying trooper (there's someone real under that armor), and then, of course, Finn. So on those grounds, I'm somewhat all right with it.
posted by Atreides at 12:25 PM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]

People think the first line of Star Wars: The Force Awakens might be an insult to George Lucas

Always love a completely daft conspiracy theory
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:43 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Not as daft as the theory that Starkiller Base was an inside job.
(Wait, that one is true!)
posted by entropicamericana at 1:03 PM on December 29, 2015

Maybe the shot is the way it is because it's awesome. Both times I've seen it in theater I loved it. I can get plenty analytical too, but watching Star Wars, you have to shut off the physics part of your brain. These movies have spaceships that bank and fly like airplanes in space. None of it makes any sense with regard to physics.

Yup, but it's awesome like a Pierce Brosnan James Bond stunt instead of like a Daniel Craig James Bond stunt, when Episode 4 was full of Craig stunts rather than Brosnan stunts. It was the prequels that had Pierce Brosnan stunts, and I wanted as much of the prequels banished as possible. (And I mostly - but not completely - got my wish. I love the movie.)

In Star Wars, to many viewers it is all grounded with regard to physics because (among other reasons) as pointed out it's quite literally a recreation of the The Dam Busters. If the Dam Busters was remade and a Lancaster or B-52 bomber had a jammed belly turret, and started dogfighting with a fighter, and the pilot did a handbrake turn and then pitched and yawed the aircraft to aim the guns using only the bomber's body roll and pitch (no gunner was aiming, just the pilot moving the hull - watch the movie, Fin didn't aim the guns), to shoot at a rapidly moving fighter that the pilot couldn't see, using a gun in a position (s)he had only vague information about, and not only got the gun on target, but kept it on a moving target long enough for the gunner to wake up and pull the trigger... some people would be walking out of the theatre shaking their heads, not bothering to see any more, rather than merely grumbling online about that one scene that bugs them.

It's great that you enjoyed it and that that's Star Wars to you, but it is also legitimate for some people (like me) to recognize that the XTREME-TO-THE-MAXness of that stunt is metaphorically more from the Pierce Brosnan movies that I felt got too silly. (If you haven't seen them, an example of a Pierce Brosnan James Bond stunt is that he wants to get on a helicopter, so he skies down a mountain and ski-jumps off a cliff and flies through the air and grabs onto the helicopter in mid air. That sort of thing.)

I really don't blame the movie for that bit that bugs me - the wider picture is that I love how most of it was so very nice and restrained compared to the prequels.
This latest Star Wars movie has to compete in the company of movies where the ante for both spectacle and silly has been raised considerably since the original movies, while still feeling like it fits in with those movies. While I have gripes about certain little bits here and there, overall I am deeply impressed at how well they pulled that off. It's because I'm so impressed with the rest that I'm extra annoyed by the bits that didn't work as well.
posted by anonymisc at 1:05 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

a couple of FAN NITPICK things in response to what's been said:

- When Chewy walks up to Leia on her right, he seems to not completely go past her (I hope that's the right perspective, the camera was too centered on their gap for me to tell) before the camera cuts to Rey's face staring back at Leia. So in the time it takes for the next scene where they're in front of each other, I think there's time for Leia to give Chewy a quick hug or a knowing arm grab.
- The main characters see the red death rays split up and destroy the Republic planets while they're still on Takodana, before they get attacked by First Order. We're not shown if the Resistance on their hideout planet see the rays or not. So by the movie if any Resistance members saw the rays they were the ones on Takodana, approaching to help the leads.
posted by numaner at 1:21 PM on December 29, 2015

Always love a completely daft conspiracy theory

Why's it daft? The implication of the line is smack-you-in-the-face obvious. Even if it wasn't written with that in mind, there were only about a trillion opportunities for someone in production to consider the metacommentary that could be read into it, and yet they left it in.

the XTREME-TO-THE-MAXness of that stunt is metaphorically more from the Pierce Brosnan movies that I felt got too silly.

you know in the first draft of the script Rey's speeder was supposed to be invisible
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:24 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Fanfare: It's because I'm so impressed with the rest that I'm extra annoyed by the bits that didn't work as well.

I could keep going, guys. Really, though, that shot was amazeballs and I dunno why y'all buggin'
posted by numaner at 1:26 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

I dunno if any of you follow Darths and Droids (think: what if Star Wars was a D&D game), but the author made this bingo card for the movie, and I think it's a good thing that not a lot hit.
posted by numaner at 1:28 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

As an aside: I would almost have loved for there to be more 'Rey in her badass scavenger getup' action -- that was a great costume even if it existed almost entirely for the 'wait, this is a woman!' reveal. For example, let her put on the goggles/balaclava while she's riding her speeder back to town, you know?

Ooh, yes, that would have been cool. It was such good Star-Wars attire and was gone in seconds.
(And riding a speeder through the desert and sandy wind-gusts is a really legitimate time for wearing the goggles too. But I guess if OSHA considerations were much of a thing a Long Long Time Ago, then that Han/Ren catwalk would have had safety handrails :D )
posted by anonymisc at 1:31 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think eventually they just stopped sending inspectors.
posted by ODiV at 1:35 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

Oh forgot to add what I thought were hits in the bingo card:

R = Row, C = Column
- R1C3: Alien speaks English in ethnic accent: Maz
- R1C5(?): An alien animal attacks: does the elephant drinking water pushing Finn away counts?
- R2C1: John Williams score reprises a theme from original trilogy: Luke's theme plays when Rey focuses the force while holding the lightsaber
- R2C2: Alien speaks alien language and Han replies in English: Han & Chewy
- R2C3: Lightsabre used for non-combat purpose: I'm counting Ren slashing at inanimate things
- R2C4: Death of original trilogy character: obvious
- R2C5(?): Chewy welds something: I remember he was tending to the Falcon at the Resistance base, but I don't remember if he was welding or not
- R3C1: Alien band plays music: in Maz's castle
- R3C2(?): On-screen kiss: I recall Rey giving Finn a peck on the cheek when they met up in Starkiller Base, but I'm not sure if that counts, or if I'm recalling correctly
- R3C3: WILD CARD
- R4C2: Bigger than life size hologram: Supreme Leader Snoke
- R4C5: Big "Noooooo!!": Rey when Han dies
- R5C3: A bad guy successfully shoots someone: Chewy gets hit in the shoulder by a Kanjiklub member (or was it one of the Guavian Death Gangsters?)

no bingo :(
posted by numaner at 1:39 PM on December 29, 2015

Those are different bingo cards. Nice. I assumed it was just a bingo card but the pages is generating completely different ones from a much larger list of conditions. Mine had a whole bunch of different conditions that all seemed like they should have been sure-fire checks, but was nowhere near a bingo. Heh, very cool.
posted by anonymisc at 1:43 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh! I had no idea they're generating different ones! Ha! Sweet!
posted by numaner at 1:45 PM on December 29, 2015

since work is super slow this week, who wants to join me in trying to get a bingo from that?

if you have an imgur account just upload the screenshot, edit the image to make marks, and post it.
posted by numaner at 1:46 PM on December 29, 2015

wow this one was even worse: http://imgur.com/gallery/dOOPMlp/
posted by numaner at 1:51 PM on December 29, 2015

This is an interesting perspective and one I could get on board with:

Star Wars: The Force Awakens – Black Lives Matter's first science fiction film [The Guardian]

After I saw Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens the first time, I was left wondering: what if under every white stormtrooper’s armour was a black human? After all, the only stormtrooper we actually see unmasked is played by John Boyega, and so it’s possible – though we are conditioned to believe that whiteness is the norm even in outer space – that his race wasn’t an aberration but the standard. The clues were certainly there: that on a galactic scale the First Order had conscripted black folks to do its heavy lifting (just as so many other oppressive regimes have done right here on earth on a planetary scale).

So when I watched the film for the second time, I did so imagining that all the stormtroopers were black. It not only made sense, it made the Force Awakens an even more intriguing and politically engaging movie. As white, Latin and black actors respectively, stars Daisy Ridley, Oscar Isaac and Boyega better reflect the diversity of our times, which also plays to the international Star Wars audience Disney is developing around the globe. But if all the stormtroopers are black, the Force Awakens can be read as a tale specifically rooted in black oppression and, more importantly, black awakening and rebellion; indeed, it could be read as the first science fiction film of the Black Lives Matter era.

posted by Fizz at 1:59 PM on December 29, 2015 [13 favorites]

So if this series follows tradition, there's a big piece of information we're missing that puts everything in a new light. One theory I have: a lot of people assume that Rey is on Jakku because Ren turned dark, but what if it's the other way around, and Rey's disappearance is responsible for Ren's turn? Maybe she was a stabilizing influence on him at Jedi camp, and Snoke wanted her out of the way. Maybe her disappearance become a symbol for the failings of the adults around him.

But the plot problem basically is: who would want to maroon Rey without killing her outright?

The other big missing piece is, of course, Rey's mother. There's a tradition of fatherless children in Star Wars, too, and it's not clear that Luke would know she exists, even if he is her father. Maybe her mom liked to tell fairy tales about Luke Skywalker, but never let on anything more specific. And it's not 100% clear or obvious that her *mother* is/was a good person, either, which might explain being sold off as slave labor on Jakku. I hope they don't make Rey's mother dead, that would be such a cheat way out.

Side note: there was one thing that made me cry and cry in TFA, and that was Rey and Leia hugging. I've been waiting my whole life for that, I think.
posted by Andrhia at 2:19 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

There's a tradition of fatherless children in Star Wars, too,

And Disney, to be fair.

there was one thing that made me cry and cry in TFA, and that was Rey and Leia hugging. I've been waiting my whole life for that, I think.

But Chewbacca misses out at the end of the film. Again.
posted by Mezentian at 2:30 PM on December 29, 2015

I think somebody linked to the Star Wars Spotify account's Kylo Ren playlist earlier, but apparently they've been doing a bunch of them. I haven't listened to all of them but so far, the Han Solo playlist is GREAT.
posted by PussKillian at 2:45 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

There's a tradition of fatherless children in Star Wars, too,

And Disney, to be fair.

Parents in the first 10 minutes of Disney movies have more to fear than redshirts.

In our house the joke has always been that when someone asks for clarification on the order of "which Disney movies was that?" the answer is "the one with the orphan."
posted by phearlez at 3:06 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

There's a tradition of fatherless children in Star Wars, too,

And Disney, to be fair.

Belle, Ariel, Mulan, Sleeping Beauty, Pocahontas, Jasmine, Merida, Nemo, and Jane all keep their dads the whole movie. Disney has more of a mother problem.
posted by Andrhia at 3:11 PM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

Leia kept her dad.
posted by Atreides at 3:36 PM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

Does Bail Organa count?
posted by nonasuch at 3:42 PM on December 29, 2015

There is another.
posted by Artw at 3:44 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

Sky...Walk...Er... *croak*
posted by entropicamericana at 3:45 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

Come to think of it, Luke loses FOUR fathers or father-figures over the course of the series (Uncle Ben, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vader). Dang. Bad universe for being a dad.
posted by Andrhia at 3:48 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

*cough* Owen *cough*
posted by entropicamericana at 3:50 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Unless, of course, Luke was really inspired by fictional African-American spokespeople for instant rice.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:52 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Unless, of course, Luke was really inspired by fictional African-American spokespeople for instant rice.

...At least I know where that particular short-circuit in my brain comes from!
posted by Andrhia at 3:54 PM on December 29, 2015

Unless, of course, Luke was really inspired by fictional African-American spokespeople for instant rice.

According to James Khan's officially-sanctioned Return of the Jedi novelisation Ben and Owen were brothers, so Obi Wan/Old Ben was actually Uncle Ben.

From a certain point of view.
posted by Mezentian at 3:58 PM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

Dang. Bad universe for being a dad.

Fathers in Carbonite Syndrome?
posted by FJT at 4:01 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Nephew Ben is, of course, not his father.
posted by Artw at 4:13 PM on December 29, 2015

Maybe it's just a bad universe for being Luke's dad.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 4:20 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

#Force4Ham has upped the game since the movie's release!

Welp, there goes my evening down a Tumblr hole. What does it say about me that the second one made me tear up a bit?
posted by lunasol at 4:24 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Always love a completely daft conspiracy theory

Not as daft as the theory that Starkiller Base was an inside job.
(Wait, that one is true!)

x-wing fuel can't melt sun beams
posted by MCMikeNamara at 4:26 PM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

There was a second shooter in the Mos Eisley Cantina!
posted by Mezentian at 4:43 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

I realized I posted an incorrect link upthread, and have to correct, because it really is fun to compare:

Main Title performance, Episode IV

Main Title performance, Episode VII

The Ep VII performance is just so much cleaner, immaculately precise and beautifully in tune. Here is a post about the difference in Horn section sound; part one makes the case that the score is completely in sync with the film creatively, in reframing/resetting the SW universe while still tying it to the previous story/music; parts two, four, and five further unpack Williams's work on TFA.

I think it's a fantastic score, there is lots of new music and it's organically interwoven with previous music (which is necessary, because that's what's happening dramatically, too). Keep listening past the Main Title in the link above, and you'll hear not only some truly Bad Ass brass playing, but really charming new music, too.
posted by LooseFilter at 4:46 PM on December 29, 2015 [19 favorites]

Sergio Mendes, of all people, has paid homage to the new film by posting a photo from 1970 of a 28-year-old Harrison Ford, back when he was just "the carpenter who built my studio".

What is on his head?
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:54 PM on December 29, 2015

This is a great article hitting on a lot of things I identify with and that I have heard a lot of women SW fans commenting on. As well as that initial feeling of relief that it's going to be ok, the part about how she doesn't have to "earn" her heroism through horrors is great. Her heroism isn't a reaction, it just is. Bilbo and the ring, Harry and the letter indeed.
posted by Iteki at 4:55 PM on December 29, 2015 [6 favorites]

Hey guys, can you help me out with an Ask?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:08 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I think the Spaceballs answer is correct. Beat up Winnebago.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:16 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

that stunt is metaphorically more from the Pierce Brosnan movies that I felt got too silly.

Let us just be grateful that it was not a Roger Moore stunt complete with slide whistle. The irony of course is that is an actual real physically possible stunt that was done in real life.

Luke's "jump into chasm, conveniently hit exit tube leading to place to be rescued from" stunt doesn't feel any less ridiculous than Rey's maneuver, so it gets a pass from me.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:26 PM on December 29, 2015

The correct answer, of course, is that it is a 1970s van with teardrop windows.
posted by entropicamericana at 5:46 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

The correct answer, of course, is that it is any car I'm currently driving.
posted by mazola at 5:48 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

What Mazola driving might be like.
posted by Mezentian at 5:53 PM on December 29, 2015

It's a Toyota Hilux, of course.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:02 PM on December 29, 2015

Okay, now that it's been pointed out to me, I can never un-know that Kylo was 100% without a doubt conceived somewhere in the Falcon. Great. Thanks.
posted by nonasuch at 6:11 PM on December 29, 2015 [10 favorites]

Some flavor of Chevy Vega?
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:17 PM on December 29, 2015

Someone has just reminded me of this tweet I sent out back in Apr 2014. I'll have to think of something suitably ludicrous.
posted by crossoverman at 6:27 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

Okay, now that it's been pointed out to me, I can never un-know that Kylo was 100% without a doubt conceived somewhere in the Falcon. Great. Thanks.

Why do you think Chewier NEVER sits in Han's seat?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:33 PM on December 29, 2015 [10 favorites]

+---------------------------------+
|   When the Falcon is a-rockin'  |
|     Don't come a-knockin'!      |
+---------------------------------+

posted by mazola at 6:37 PM on December 29, 2015 [9 favorites]

GUYS...

GUYS.

I just watched Looper for the first time and I need to see Episode VIII RIGHT. NOW.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:10 PM on December 29, 2015 [7 favorites]

Maybe I'll watch Looper tonight…
posted by mazola at 8:18 PM on December 29, 2015

I parsed that as "I just watched Jumper for the first time", and thought you were looking for some of that sweet Anakin Skywalker charisma.
posted by Mezentian at 8:28 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]

Laurie Penny, What to do when you're not the hero any more:

The people who get angry that Hermione is black, that Rey is a woman, that Furiosa is more of a hero than Mad Max, I understand their anger. Anyone who has ever felt shut out of a story by virtue of their sex or skin colour has felt that anger. Imagine that anger multiplied a hundredfold, imagine feeling it every time you read or watched or heard or played through a story. Imagine how over time that rage would harden into bewilderment, and finally mute acceptance that people like you were never going to get to be the hero, not really.

Then imagine that suddenly starting to change. Imagine letting out a breath you’d held between your teeth so long you’d forgotten the taste of air.

posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:08 PM on December 29, 2015 [22 favorites]

Snoke's real old, like 26. He lives in town.
posted by Artw at 9:29 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]

Laurie Penny, What to do when you're not the hero any more

Wow, that was spot on. It's exactly why the past few years have felt like a huge sigh of relief about a lot of media. Since Legend of Korra I've been very excited about these new imaginings that let me experience fantastical stories from very different perspectives than my own.
posted by numaner at 9:33 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

I just watched Looper for the first time and I need to see Episode VIII RIGHT. NOW.

He also directed Breaking Bad's Ozymandias. I have high hopes for Ep VIII, higher than I had for Ep VII in many ways.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:49 PM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]

>Then they first throw him against Finn, who is not a master swordsman but has had some weapons training. Probably with that stormtrooper-arm-baton thing seen at Takodana.
posted by schroedinger at 8:44 PM on December 28 [32 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

I was utterly fascinated by how the stormtrooper-arm-baton worked as a piece of quick wordless exposition setting up the Ren/Finn fight while also expanding the star wars universe in a way consistent with the original trilogy.

So, sure, they needed to establish that a non-Force-user could pick up a lightsaber and be competent with it if they had training in fighting with a similar weapon, otherwise Finn would have been toast even despite Ren's injury and/or suckitude. Moreover, they needed to establish that a mutinous stormtrooper would have training fighting with (sort of) a similar weapon. So, we have the earlier fight with the stormtrooper wielding the arm-baton thing.

Okay, but then we're faced with a puzzle: if we've only seen stormtroopers with blasters, why would First Order stormtroopers carry arm-baton things? They're kinda ridiculous, right? But the arm-baton fight answers the question as it raises it: lightsabers. If you're fighting a force user with a lightsaber, well, you're probably boned, but at the very least you won't have them redirecting blaster bolts everywhere if you try to wail on them with a big horking slab of technology instead. And (since we're in the middle of establishing that non-force-users can use lightsabers), hell, it might be semi-common to run into a non-force-user with a lightsaber, and maybe despite their lack of forcefulness they still might be able to turn your blaster bolts against you. So instead when you see a dude with a laser sword, you put down your blaster and pick up your handy-dandy stormtrooper-arm-baton thing instead.

As an object, the arm-baton simultaneously justifies Finn's use of a lightsaber and also, indirectly, its own existence. It's a neat trick.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:15 AM on December 30, 2015 [12 favorites]

According to the Star Wars wiki Episode VIII page, Rian Johnson screened the films Twelve O'Clock High and Letter Never Sent for the crew. So a World War II bombing raid epic meets a Russian survivalist drama. Is it May 2017 yet?
posted by crossoverman at 1:12 AM on December 30, 2015 [9 favorites]

Just to add some more detail: The "arm baton" is a tonfa, an Okinawan weapon (though some cursory googling also points to similar weapons in Chinese and Thai martial arts). Which makes sense, since the lightsaber is based on the katana.
posted by FJT at 1:19 AM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

Just to add some more detail: The "arm baton" is a tonfa, an Okinawan weapon

So, Rogue One's sole image has Marvel's Stick (he's blind!) and Some Kind Of Samuari as characters.
And we all know Lucas was a tad inspired by these things.
Does anyone have any insight into the promo pic.
Half of the characters are looking away from the camera.
Seems significant.
posted by Mezentian at 2:32 AM on December 30, 2015

Anyone who has ever felt shut out of a story by virtue of their sex or skin colour has felt that anger. Imagine that anger multiplied a hundredfold, imagine feeling it every time you read or watched or heard or played through a story. Imagine how over time that rage would harden into bewilderment, and finally mute acceptance that people like you were never going to get to be the hero, not really.

I suspect a corollary may be that if you have always been promised since birth that you will be the hero and earn all the things, but then discover that your society spurns you and mocks you instead, you also feel a kind of anger. But rather than an anger directed at a story, it is anger directed at society.

I wonder if, should we somehow manage to fix our culture's stories yet not improve on how brutality US society is structured, will the rampages we suffer, um, demographically broaden accordingly?

^{(Obvs, you don't change one and ignore the other, but rampages seem demographically narrow and I'm wondering how much broken promises and expectations fuels that)}
posted by anonymisc at 4:06 AM on December 30, 2015

Worth a read: "But everything that puts you in the moment, when you’re watching it, falls apart as soon as you turn your brain back on. ... You can be cynical or you can enjoy it; you can turn your brain on or leave it off. But you can’t have it both ways." Aaron Bady for The New Inquiry: "Our Star Wars Holiday Special."
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:11 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

then discover that your society spurns you and mocks you instead.

Not sure that not always being the hero, or not having quite everything handed to you on a platter anymore is the equivalent of being spurned and mocked. Unless I'm misreading you. It is early and I am hopped up on cold medicine.
posted by chris24 at 6:22 AM on December 30, 2015 [3 favorites]

is the equivalent of being spurned and mocked

You need to read the texts around the text.
Spurning and mocking are du jour.
They range from gentle to unrelenting.

The whole "everything handed to you on a platter" thing is complicated, and there are better arenas than this, but it does get kind of tiring.

There is a legitimate discussion to be had around this issue, in a "safe space", and people being people we'll stuff it up, but I doubt it will happen now.
posted by Mezentian at 6:45 AM on December 30, 2015

Oscar Isaac explains how to play with a Poe Dameron action figure (NSFW?)
posted by larrybob at 6:53 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's great that you enjoyed it and that that's Star Wars to you, but it is also legitimate for some people (like me) to recognize that the XTREME-TO-THE-MAXness of that stunt is metaphorically more from the Pierce Brosnan movies that I felt got too silly.

People disagreeing with you is not claiming your opinion is illegitimate. We just disagree.

Maybe it bugs you because for the first time in a Star Wars movie, the Falcon actually behaved more realistically than it had in previous movies. When Rey shuts off the thrust, it falls out of the air like a brick. It doesn't have wings, it's a big flying lump. That felt to me very similar to Serenity pulling a Crazy Ivan.

The lucky shot was just a lucky shot. Maybe she used the Force some. When it's all finished Rey and Finn have a big OMG moment where they geek out about how they were able to pull it off, so the movie acknowledges that it was a lucky, amazing thing.

Your insistence of it being "XTREME-TO-THE-MAX" seems like you're ignoring all of the aerial gymnastics the Falcon does in the asteroid chase in ESB. There is precedent for this flying hunk of junk doing some crazy things.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:03 AM on December 30, 2015 [7 favorites]

I read the text around the text, and it reads like the demographic being referenced is angry white guys. And again, not always being the hero or not having every advantage doesn't equate to spurning or mocking. Nor do I think white guys suffer that unduly as a normal course of business. And I say that as a white guy. If you're being spurned and mocked, it's not because you're a white male, it's probably because you're a white male that acts in a way that causes others to treat you that way. Anyway, probably a discussion for a different place, but to try to tie it to TFA, I think it's amazing that the hero is a woman. And I don't want any future diversification of heroes to be held up even one second thinking about the possible hurt feelings of a subset of white guys. (And not implying that this is what anonymisc initially was saying.)
posted by chris24 at 7:20 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Not only is the hero a woman, but our hero lives on the bottom dwelling fringe of society. She's a scavenger. She's poor, lives in the equivalent of a giant cardboard box (something intended for one purpose and discarded after that purpose), and survives entirely by hunting for scrap metal which she trades in for meager compensation. Contrast this against our last female leads in Star Wars, one a princess and the other a queen.
posted by Atreides at 8:15 AM on December 30, 2015 [13 favorites]

Laurie Penny, What to do when you're not the hero any more

My brain initially registered this as Lori Petty which works pretty well too.
posted by phearlez at 8:45 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

That New Inquiry article bugs the hell out of me. Yeah, from one point of view (a child's), Star Wars is an infantile fantasy, but to say the text ends there, and that the only "correct" way to engage with it is to have one's critical faculties turned all the way off, is demonstrably false. See: this thread being as enormous as it is--I'm pretty sure that most of us here are adults.

If Star Wars were really as infantile and regressive as this guy argues, I don't think adults would be as interested in it as they clearly are. You could argue that it's a matter of nostalgia, but I think there is something more; something in these stories that resonates with an adult's mind; something deeper than "good guys save the day." It's not just a power-fantasy for adult children (note that the character who most embodies power-fantasy in TFA is the petulant wannabe-villain). And I think there is definitely something to be gained, besides a headache, by thinking about the stories, and what we hope to get out of them.
posted by zchyrs at 9:42 AM on December 30, 2015 [8 favorites]

I think the basic argument is that Star Wars makes it ok for adults to play with action figures, even if it's an 'intellectual' exercise like what's going on in this thread (the 'what ifs'). That's ok by me!

Poo-pooing what doesn't make rational sense; having one 'right' answer as canon that fills in all the gaps, that's different and very un-Star Wars-y.
posted by mazola at 9:48 AM on December 30, 2015

That New Inquiry article bugs the hell out of me.

I rolled my eyes because it's pretty much the "I'm too sophisticated for your lowbrow childish fun" that genre readers have been getting since before I was born. If sneering at other people's fun is what floats your boat, more power to you, but my mama always told me that was a pleasure best indulged in private and kind of rude to say to people who are actually having that fun. (Though I guess he assumes New Inquiry readers are Above All That.)

Now if you want to make an argument about Star Wars as spectacle that comforts during difficult times (cf the original serials it's based on from the 30s/40s, the late 70s, the prequel era, and now), I'm here for that. I think there's a lot you could explore about it, and the appeal of nostalgia based on economic conditions. You could even bring in the Brin arguments. But there's a world of difference between a discussion about how real-world conditions affect Star Wars and its reception and one that just says that sophisticated people can't enjoy SW without turning off their brains.

(And yeah, I had some problems too, but no more than with most blockbuster movies I watch, tbh.)
posted by immlass at 10:12 AM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

note that the character who most embodies power-fantasy in TFA is the petulant wannabe-villain

I'm not sure. I think Rey and Finn are both power-fantasies on their own, too, if somewhat untraditional because they aren't white men. One thing that makes neu-Star Wars a bit less 'regressive/infantilizing,' as the New Inquiry article proposes, is that even leaving aside the Force-assisted-improbable stunt moments, Rey has earned her competence, if offscreen. In some ways Kylo Ren is the privileged whiny emo teenager, while Rey is the no-nonsense everywoman who uses the small benefits of being from an awful background to be successful in a wildly unpleasant situation. (I'm going to leave theorizing about Rey's background and Jedi setup out of this). Finn's also a bit of a power-fantasy -- he's the good guy in a shit situation who does what's right and ends up being good at it, and recognized for it! (Again, going to leave off my qualms about Finn's characterization, which I've belabored up-thread and have been mentioned in several of the linked articles).
posted by Alterscape at 10:14 AM on December 30, 2015 [3 favorites]

You know, I don't think I've read specifically mentioned in this thread one of the aspects I love most about Rey: though she still has a hero's journey ahead of her to realize her full self, when we first meet her she's mostly fully-formed, very much not like Anakin or Luke Skywalker.

Anakin is child when we meet him, and Luke is a naive farm kid. From the first, however, Rey is clearly self-reliant and brave (I certainly couldn't leap to my descent rope over a drop of hundreds of feet, and then quickly slide down, with no safety gear or really gear of any kind, I mean holy shit you guys scavenging on Jakku is an extreme sport). We then see that she is disciplined (routine, counting days) but a dreamer (watching the sunset with an old rebellion pilot's helmet on, dreaming of flying). She has a strong sense of right and wrong, and respect for others--when she runs after BB-8's scream to their first meeting, she does not hesitate to help him and condemn his attacker ('he has no respect for anybody!'), and does not question the droid's autonomy and freedom. She is a moral, strong person, regardless of her circumstances

Rey is brave and good and strong from the moment we meet her, and Ridley's portrayal embodies this brilliantly.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:16 AM on December 30, 2015 [28 favorites]

>> It's great that you enjoyed it and that that's Star Wars to you, but it is also legitimate for some people (like me) to recognize that the XTREME-TO-THE-MAXness of that stunt is metaphorically more from the Pierce Brosnan movies that I felt got too silly.

> People disagreeing with you is not claiming your opinion is illegitimate. We just disagree.

> Maybe it bugs you because for the first time in a Star Wars movie, the Falcon actually behaved more realistically than it had in previous movies. When Rey shuts off the thrust, it falls out of the air like a brick. It doesn't have wings, it's a big flying lump. That felt to me very similar to Serenity pulling a Crazy Ivan.

The Millennium Falcon has indeed been doing crazy things since the first time we saw it.

I think you're observing something real, here, though — the sort of stunt that seems realistic has changed since the first batch of movies were made. In the specific case here, I believe the visual rhetoric of the stunt draws on the fact that in 2015, even middle-aged people have personally been pulling ridiculous tricks in Star Wars ships since they were little kids. The entire sequence under discussion features both really precise flying (maneuvering through a crumbling Imperial hulk) and really sloppy flying (bouncing semi-randomly through a thousand near misses). This makes visual sense — Rey looks like someone who's not perfect at the game, but who has played the level before, so she knows the least-dangerous route through the hulk and also where to expect enemy ships in pursuit to come out. "Oh, yeah, newbs always fly straight out of that hole there, and I know that TIE fighter is a couple of seconds behind me, so if I fire blind while pointed this way I'll probably get them unless they've played the level before and knows to do an evasive maneuver on exit from the hulk."

The TIE pilot hadn't played the level before, so they didn't evade, so *blammo*. Everyone at the LAN party makes noises like "ooh" and "aahh" and "great shot kid one in a million!" and the game continues.

One thing that the prequels missed hard is that the visual rhetoric of film had imported the visual rhetoric of video games wholesale. Lucas isn't entirely to blame for missing the shift, at least not at first, because it wasn't a gradual one — it happened (at least in Western cinema) in one big burst that started with a movie that came out right before Phantom Menace. Tell me you can watch that fight and not imagine health bars hovering over both combatants. The first time I saw that now-old movie, I was floored by how the directors leveraged videogame fight dynamics to make a superficially absurd fight make visual sense. It's an old trick now, of course, but nevertheless the sequence in TFA played it really really well. George Lucas, who by the time of the prequel series was an extraordinarily out of touch old man living in Marin County, never quite got how to leverage videogame logic to communicate with special effects sequences; instead, for the prequels he put together these differently-hyperstylized balletic fight sequence that look like something from a masque, because that's what he (an old, old man) thought looked cool. Even though there's no way for him to tell a Star Wars-ey story using that style of fighting.

Okay so now at this point you're rolling your eyes and saying "visual rhetoric this and videogame logic that, it still doesn't make any sense that Rey pulled that off." To which I say: you're wrong! You're totally totally totally wrong! Here's why it makes sense for Rey to fly like someone who's played the level before:

The less important reason is that she's a Force user, whether she knows it or not, and even totally untrained Force users, who don't even know they're using it, move through the world like they've taken a very small dose of this stuff.
The more important reason is that Rey is a scavenger kid who's been living alone all her life, clambering through this exact Imperial hulk to pull parts out of it to exchange for meager food. She has, as far as we can tell, no friends. And she loves the shit out of flight, even though she's never flown anything. So of course she spent every second stuck crawling through the wreckage imagining what it'd be like to fly through it instead. "I don't know, maybe I've stolen that garbagey old smuggling ship that the creep who keeps shorting me on rations has in his junkyard... yeah, and I'd zig past that support beam, under that one — bet if a TIE fighter were chasing me they'd get hung up on it! — I'd have to be careful to turn the ship going through that passage... and then I'd fly out there and turn around and immediately blast anyone who's still on my tail! Man, it'd be just like General Solo flying through the asteroid belt in those old stories from the war!"

tl;dr: She flies like she's played the level before because she's played the level before, a thousand times in her head. It's not an unrealistic stunt, it's a piece of effective visual storytelling.

To be fair: It's not the best application of stunt design to tell a story that we've seen this year, but that's just because Mad Max came out this year. JJ Abrams can't compete with George Miller, but, well, that's okay. George Miller is a once-in-a-century genius at storytelling through action sequences, but Abrams isn't exactly bad at it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:25 AM on December 30, 2015 [32 favorites]

Also, my very very favorite thing about TFA: we took my nieces and nephew to see it, and immediately after the movie ended, my nephew (age 12) turned to my wife and said "I think I have a new favorite movie." His favorite character? Rey. Number of issues or concerns he has about her being a girl? Zero.

Three days later, I asked them if they wanted to go see it again to an enthusiastic YES. Verdict? "It was better the second time."

Stories matter, wonder matters. Our imaginations are where our lives and realities begin. It is ridiculous to argue that fantasy and wonder and story-telling are childish in any way. We immerse our children in these things because they are the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS, not because they are inferior to adults and need special, stupid stuff just for them.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:25 AM on December 30, 2015 [19 favorites]

Rey is brave and good and strong from the moment we meet her

The more I think about it, the more interested this makes me in the next several movies. As you say, Anakin and Luke are (talented) children who become pivotal because of their family connection to the Force. Rey's a bit of a different animal because she's already competent and empowered -- the only thing keeping her on Jaaku is her promise to wait for her family's return. So rather than seeing a sort of talented kid become mega-awesome thanks to Movie Magic, we get to see an already skilled person figure out how to deal with a new aspect of her life that forces her (ha, pun not intentional but I'll run with it) to deal with new and unfamiliar situations with the tools she already has. That's a new and different story from Luke or Anakin's, beyond just the gender-swap, so I'm curious to see where this goes, especially with someone like Rian Johnson directing the next outing.

My one fear is that we immediately learn Rey is Luke's daughter (because, of course) which reduces things to "She's a Skywalker. OF COURSE she's amazingly talented and pivotal to the fate of the universe." In some ways, that undercuts her strength as a character by making it all about destiny. On the other hand, it's Star Wars, so it probably is all about destiny.
posted by Alterscape at 10:25 AM on December 30, 2015 [7 favorites]

One thing that the prequels missed hard is that the visual rhetoric of film had imported the visual rhetoric of video games wholesale.

You're kidding, right? The podrace? The battledroid factory? The forty-five-minute final duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:34 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

Yeah, and he got it wrong. It's been years and years since I've watched the first two prequels, but as I remember the stupid long duel in the third movie, Anakin and Obi-Wan typically swing around and wave their swords at each other, like they're in a Circe du Soleil routine, rather than trying to put their hitboxes on each others' hurtboxes (which is how Neo and Agent Smith fight). Moreover, Lucas didn't use videogame tropes to say anything — like, there's no real story behind Anakin being good at pod racing, other than that he's spooky good at everything cause his body manufactures felix felicis.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:36 AM on December 30, 2015 [7 favorites]

In some ways, that undercuts her strength as a character by making it all about destiny.

This is an excellent point, and puts me firmly on the side of 'I hope she's not a Skywalker'. (I mean, what, is the Force just going to keep making iterations of Skywalkers until they get it right? 'Maybe version 3.0 will work!')

On the other hand, it's Star Wars, so it probably is all about destiny.

Yeah. OTOH, it does sound like Rian Johnson is being given some creative freedom. TFA definitely re-established the SW baseline strongly enough to allow him to go in some different directions....maybe.....
posted by LooseFilter at 10:36 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

George Miller is a once-in-a-century genius at storytelling through action sequences,

George Miller or Margaret Sixel?

Anakin and Obi-Wan keep waving their swords at each other
The (Totally) Phantom Menace
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:38 AM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

Like basically the distinction I'm trying (and maybe failing) to establish is that Lucas could only make action sequences that look like video games, while contemporary filmmakers know how to make action sequences that play like videogames. Watching the pod race is like watching an attract sequence from an old arcade game; watching Rey fly is like watching a decent player's youtube videos.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:47 AM on December 30, 2015 [3 favorites]

I was not aware that the stormtrooper with the electric vibro tonfa has become a meme. But yes, that's a sick spin and I approve.
posted by numaner at 10:59 AM on December 30, 2015 [7 favorites]

Robot Chicken presents: orders 1-65
posted by numaner at 11:12 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

Saw it a second time. I realized who Finn reminds me of: my relatives who were sent away to boarding school when they were kids. Especially the whole "reduced sense of personal space" thing we see when he's holding Rey's hand or using her as a step-ladder in the Falcon.
posted by LegallyBread at 11:23 AM on December 30, 2015 [10 favorites]

And she loves the shit out of flight, even though she's never flown anything.

She actually says she's flown before. What she's flown, I have no idea (my brain doesn't hold ship names at all for some reason), but she has, even if she's never flown "garbage" before.

On second viewing, I noticed a lot more seeding of her abilities in the first half of the film. She sucks at fighting until she closes her eyes and draws on the wisdom that Maz Kaneda gave her about the force. That's pretty cool. An old lady is pretty much her Obi-wan in that scene.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:26 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

oh right! She's flown, she just hasn't been off-planet.

this is the first time... well, okay, I was going to say "this is the first time in years that I've wanted to see a movie again immediately after watching it," but that's a lie, because Fury Road.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:29 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

While I can't think of any specifically quotable lines in this one after the fact (no "scruffy looking nerf herder" stuff), it's the expressions that really cracked me up in a lot of places.

Han does say "Some moof-milker put a compressor on the fuel pump"

I don't really think Adam Driver looks like a kid that Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher would have but I'm willing to forgive, because he's such a great actor.

I think they both have some pretty strong noses to be close enough. And there's been a couple mentions about Kylo's acne, and he doesn't have acne - Adam Driver just has a lot of moles on his face.

Emo Kylo Ren's costume is really complicated.
No wonder he's so cranky.

I can't view the link right now, but it did remind me of the custom woven silk costume V for Vendetta had.

And while the magic muffin was quite cool, and I love Star Wars inventive space food, I was a little disappointed to recognize the kiwano with romanesco. I guess I just know too much about weird produce now.
posted by sweetmarie at 11:32 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

George Lucas, who by the time of the prequel series was an extraordinarily out of touch old man living in Marin County, never quite got how to leverage videogame logic to communicate with special effects sequences; instead, for the prequels he put together these differently-hyperstylized balletic fight sequence that look like something from a masque, because that's what he (an old, old man) thought looked cool.

George Lucas was like 55 when TPM was released.

This is the kind of thing one allows oneself to believe when one hasn't actually watched the prequels in years and mostly remembers the lightsaber fights from out-of-context gifs. At the time, the Darth Maul fight in TPM was the one thing pretty much everybody loved about the film, and if you watch the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight again -- go ahead, it's on YouTube -- you're not going to see "hyperstylized balletic" anything, they're pretty much relentlessly hacking at each other the whole time until Anakin hops on the lava floaties and the whole thing turns into...a video game level (but a platformer rather than a fighting game, so maybe Lucas absorbed the wrong lessons from video games?).

The whole part everybody points to as LOOK HOW STUPID THIS IS is when they both spin their lightsabers in a kind of wind-up move before whanging them into each other again, which happens precisely once and immediately gives way to, you know, regular fighting.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:33 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

I was not aware that the stormtrooper with the electric vibro tonfa has become a meme.

Now I want a little backstory (not too much, don't want to Fonz or Fett him) for tonfa trooper to explain why the trooper was so angry at Finn. Maybe they were in the same unit? Trained together? Were at least work friends on good terms and warned each other when Phasma was on duty so they could know when to slack off?
posted by FJT at 11:36 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

ooooor maybe 'cause Finn just stabbed his best bro.
posted by numaner at 11:41 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

And did Finn and Phasma have a thing? Is that why she caved?
posted by sweetmarie at 11:42 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

> George Lucas was like 55 when TPM was released.

Yeah, but George Lucas thinks like an old (a really boring old), even though he's younger than George Miller.

> The whole part everybody points to as LOOK HOW STUPID THIS IS is when they both spin their lightsabers in a kind of wind-up move before whanging them into each other again, which happens precisely once and immediately gives way to, you know, regular fighting.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:33 AM on December 30 [1 favorite −] [!]

Yeah but — do we learn anything about Maul, Qi-Gon, or Obi Wan from any of that regular fighting? I feel like every fight in TFA¹ teaches us something new about the characters involved.

1: One exception: We don't learn much about the X-Wing pilots from the Starkiller fight. That one was indeed kinda a mess compared to the rest of the action sequences.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:45 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, maybe George Lucas just isn't as imaginative as we give him credit for, despite whatever age. Being old doesn't mean you can't think of great action sequences. Old and awesome are uncorrelated.
posted by numaner at 11:52 AM on December 30, 2015

Yeah, but George Lucas thinks like an old (a really boring old), even though he's younger than George Miller.

Maybe not so much with the ageism. There are plenty of innovative directors working into their eighties.
posted by octothorpe at 11:55 AM on December 30, 2015 [10 favorites]

I don't think there's anything wrong with hyper stylized wuxia style fighting by itself. Star Wars is broad enough and has borrowed from different genres before. It was done in the Clone Wars Genndy Tartakovsky cartoon as well, and it worked.

It's just that the Prequels were weak on the important parts of writing and directing. If that was strong, I think a lot of the other things about it wouldn't have been a big deal.
posted by FJT at 11:56 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

This is the kind of thing one allows oneself to believe when one hasn't actually watched the prequels in years and mostly remembers the lightsaber fights from out-of-context gifs.

I can't really agree with this sentiment. I haven't watched II/III recently, but I watched TPM mid-December, and I was still struck by the level to which the lightsaber fights felt practiced and choreographed. Particularly early on in the Duel of the Fates sequence, when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are going 2v1 vs Darth Maul it just feels like performers helpfully placing their weapons in the right spot for their partners to strike them and move into the next move, as opposed to supposedly mortal enemies trying to kill one another.

Admittedly I haven't watched II/III again recently as I said, but I seem to recall the Yoda vs. Dooku fight being pretty egregious in this way as well. In fairness there, I think that has to do with the mixture of live action and CGI, but still, I recall it leading to a bunch of saber on saber strikes that make zero sense except that CGI Yoda has to sync up with previously recorded Dooku's motions.

At the time, the Darth Maul fight in TPM was the one thing pretty much everybody loved about the film

You're not wrong, but that doesn't mean they weren't in fact kinda hyper-stylized ballet fights. Also, people were looking for just about anything they could latch onto as something nice to say at that point :)
posted by tocts at 11:59 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm not here to defend the Yoda vs Dooku fight.

But "sometimes noticeably choreographed" is not at all the same thing as "hyper-stylized ballet."
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:09 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Reading some of the production notes about Snoke, he went through so many changes - at one point Snoke was female. His design wasn't even finalized until shortly before the movie was finished. I think Snoke is space intentionally left blank in the story. In fact, considering that different people will be working on the next two movies, I keep getting the feeling that a lot of stuff was left open just so that the next filmmaker could do what they wanted with it. Like Exquisite Corpse Star Wars.

I have this theory that I actually really really hope doesn't come to fruition because it will introduce a lot of garbage writing to the SW universe, which is that Snoke is some sort of future Kylo Ren. The facial scar that Kylo ends the movie with is in the exact same place as Snoke's skull scar. The designer of Snoke designed him as though "it's almost like Snoke was quite handsome when he was young." He's pale with black eyes, and his design wasn't finalized until after principal photography was. Oh, and Rian Johnson is behind the next one.

Like I said, I don't want this to be right. But if Ren ends the next movie with a massive scar or burn on his cheek, then I'm calling it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:23 PM on December 30, 2015 [6 favorites]

The whole part everybody points to as LOOK HOW STUPID THIS IS is when they both spin their lightsabers in a kind of wind-up move before whanging them into each other again, which happens precisely once and immediately gives way to, you know, regular fighting.

This is funny to me, not because you're wrong but because I really like that part of the Anakin / Obi-Wan fight. They do their saber hand flips, then they both throw Force Pushes at each other, and it's this mirror motion that communicates so effectively to me their master/student relationship. I'm not saying it's not also stupid, because it probably is, and it's not the most sophisticated visual storytelling device out there. But I do like it.
posted by Errant at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

Like I said, I don't want this to be right. But if Ren ends the next movie with a massive scar or burn on his cheek, then I'm calling it.

I had the same thought and I felt as if Alderaan was just blown up. Argh. Time Travel, as far as I know, is the one thing that really has stayed out of the Star Wars universe.
posted by Atreides at 12:56 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

They'll really have pulled one over on us if we get through Abrams and Johnson-directed Star Wars movies without any time travel and then the Jurassic World guy whips it out for the final episode.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:01 PM on December 30, 2015 [3 favorites]

maybe in one of his angsty outrages old Ren flies his ship at hyperspeed around the whole galaxy and turns back time.
posted by numaner at 1:04 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

I haven't been paying that much attention to the directors for the new films, so I missed that Trevorrow was signed up for Number Nine. Two observations:

* Lining up three directors associated with timey-wimey stuff and then not doing anything with time travel would be a really great twist.
* I hope there's a scene in IX where one of the Power Trio is riding a speeder bike flanked by alien lizard creatures.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:07 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

i haven't seen this mentioned here, but slight spoilers for Star Wars: Rebels, Snoke could be this guy.
posted by numaner at 1:09 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

My crazy 0.25%-serious time-travel theory is that Rey is Shmi. (See: Young Pernilla August.)
posted by entropicamericana at 1:09 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

This was discussed upthread! I like it! Maybe Kylo, in his misguided hero-worship, scrapes some leftover bits of Anakin out of the Vader mask, takes it to Kamino, and tries to clone him...but there's only mitochondrial DNA, and he ends up with ShmiRey instead...
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:18 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

When watching the first time, I was simultaneously aware of both interpretations and I was unsure whether Kylo Ren gave the lightsaber to Han as in order to surrender or to have Han kill him. I was waiting for someone to do something that would settle what Kylo Ren's intentions were. And nothing settled it. Watch it again with this other reading in mind! There are two viable readings here, which is really cool.

(wow that comment's from like 11 days ago, this is ridiculously long thread!)

Totally disagree that scene was ambiguous--well, the dialogue was ambiguous, but that just in order to show Han completely misreading the situation and being betrayed at the end of it. It was clear what had been going on (from each side) after the scene was over.

Kylo Ren says he knows what he has to do but doesn't know if he can do it, and asks if Han can help him, and (apparently) surrenders his weapon. Han thinks he is struggling to turn to the good and tries to take the lightsaber.

What Kylo Ren really means is he is struggling against the pull of the light, and when he asks for Han's help he is saying Han will be the sacrifice that will allow him to go over completely to the dark. Han replies "Anything!" and Kylo Ren skewers him.

That that had been Kylo's meaning the whole time was made clear by the fact that he said "Thank you" afterwards. He wouldn't have said thank you if his struggle at any point in the scene had be toward the light OR toward a mercy killing to end his torment. The way he wanted to end his torment was by fulling embracing the Dark, and killing his father was something he had to do to get there (Snoke had even told him so).

I mean I'm sure it was tough killing his dad and that whole thing will fuck him up for a long time to come; but there's no question that killing Han was his intent through the whole scene, and the ambiguity/angstiness was his just being kinda sadistic and crazy, leading Han along.
posted by torticat at 1:19 PM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

I can't agree based on the symbolism of the light from the sun on Kylo's face. When Han first reaches him, half his face is bathed in red light and the other sunlight. Going back to Poe's comment, "While there's light, there's hope," we can reference that so long as the light remained on Kylo's face, there was still a chance. Once the light vanished and that side of his face fell into shadow, you can see something changes in Kylo's expression. At that moment, Han also realizes it and tries to pull the lightsaber away and the struggle (short) starts, Kylo wins and activates the blade, killing his father.

When Han crosses the bridge to Kylo, his death from Kylo's perspective wasn't sealed. It was a struggle up until the light disappeared.
posted by Atreides at 1:28 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

i haven't seen this mentioned here, but slight spoilers for Star Wars: Rebels, Snoke could be this guy.

I like this theory too, it's the least pulled-out-of-a-proverbial-ass explanation for how you get a powerful Force-using big bad who's been privy to what went on during the Empire years and has both a reason and a plausible ability to work with and assume leadership of the Imperial remnant. And I haven't even watched Rebels.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:34 PM on December 30, 2015

And I haven't even watched Rebels.

Well, you should.

That theory is plausible... but then so could the return of Darth Maul.
But I doubt it's either.
posted by Mezentian at 1:58 PM on December 30, 2015

I have really strong doubts we'll see anything that isn't original or imported from the first trilogy. Prequels and spin offs really unlikely to show up here.
posted by Artw at 2:00 PM on December 30, 2015

Not in a major manner? We already have a character from Aftermath present in TFA.
posted by Atreides at 2:04 PM on December 30, 2015

Rebels, Snoke could be this guy.

Spoiler: But he dead.
posted by drezdn at 2:05 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Rebels was cooked up after Disney bought the franchise, right? It's kind of perfect: the kids watching the big reveal in episode VIII or whatever get to have a OH IT'S THAT GUY moment and explain who he is to their clueless parents, making them feel smart and like Star Wars belongs to their generation and encouraging a lifetime of brand loyalty.

Since Snoke was possibly going to be female at one point, maybe Asajj Ventress was an early candidate?

Prequels and spin offs really unlikely to show up here.

From a squeezing-all-the-merchandising-profit-you-can-out-of-your-IP perspective, cordoning off vast swaths of the Star Wars canon would not be a great plan for Disney.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:17 PM on December 30, 2015 [3 favorites]

IIRC, he also isn't Sith.
posted by drezdn at 2:19 PM on December 30, 2015

Since Snoke was possibly going to be female at one point, maybe Asajj Ventress was an early candidate?

Asajj Ventress is too great to ever be properly realised on the big screen.
Besides, she doesn't seem like the managerial type.
posted by Mezentian at 2:38 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

Going back to Poe's comment, "While there's light, there's hope," we can reference that so long as the light remained on Kylo's face, there was still a chance.

Yeah I hear you on that, Atreides (and I know that was discussed a fair amount upthread as well). And I do agree that that symbolism is all there definitely conveying something about Han's perspective of the situation at the very least (and ours as viewers).

I just disagree that Kylo was still debating by that point, and I think what he said only makes sense in retrospect according to that interpretation. Also that it's really really sinister! I mean "I need your help"--"Anything!"-- whammo -- "Thank you"
...that's some cold shit right there.
posted by torticat at 3:12 PM on December 30, 2015

I'm just checking back into the thread, and wow, You Can't Tip A Buick, that is some spectacular beanplating. Well done.
posted by Fleebnork at 3:36 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

If sneering at other people's fun is what floats your boat, more power to you,

That article didn't seem sneery to me at all, more an exhortation to engage with Star Wars on its own terms - I don't think trying to make Star Wars make coherent, cause-and-effect sense with a logically internally consistent universe really makes sense, and complaining about its failings in this area seems to me to be like complaining about ice cream for being sweet and creamy.

There's enough mythical and narrative depth to the series to engage in endless beanplating and backstorying and what-if's, which is fantastic, but I don't think that's the core of the appeal.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:45 PM on December 30, 2015

I just disagree that Kylo was still debating by that point, and I think what he said only makes sense in retrospect according to that interpretation. Also that it's really really sinister! I mean "I need your help"--"Anything!"-- whammo -- "Thank you"
...that's some cold shit right there.

I suspect he was thinking about the good times of family. Yes, he knew what he was supposed to do, Snoke made it clear. But when it came to do the deed, Kylo paused, because "hey, it's dad." He didn't know if he truly had the strength to not only do it, but not regret it.

But he did it and then he knew he had the power and strength to "go the distant". Hence the smile and "thank you."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:59 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

There's nothing wrong with choreography, of course. This fight in Fist Of Legend is choreographed to within an inch of its life, but it is wonderful.

This scene from the same film is similarly great. The old master takes down cocky young Jet Li in a most satisfying demonstration of experience over youth and raw talent. I hope the inevitable Kylo Ren vs Luke battle has a little of this in it - we've yet to see a real light vs. dark battle where the light side is the elder fighter. I'm not counting the Obi vs. Vader or Obi vs. Anakin fights, as they weren't really particularly satisfying.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:25 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

I think your interpretation definitely works from the pretty deranged, cold, and psychotic reading of Kylo. I'm not ready to sell him that far down the river, especially since he confessed to having struggles with the light.

Oh I agree; I expect there's STILL hope for Kylo, just don't think there was ever any hope for Han in that scene. Kylo definitely has some kind of deranged, cold, psychotic qualities and I think he was tapping into them there in order to shut down whatever pull the light had on him, and get done what he felt needed to get done.

Maybe kinda the way he was thumping himself during the lightsaber fight--that was kinda deranged and psychotic too.
posted by torticat at 5:31 PM on December 30, 2015

Even though Kylo hasn't completed his training, I think his turn to the Dark Side is basically complete now. I don't really know how this can be a redemption narrative after he killed Han Solo. Vader is only redeemed by saving his son; no one is going around talking about how misunderstood Vader was. Unless Kylo saves Leia from Snoke (ugh, please no), I'm not really sure there's an equivalent arc for him.

I'd much rather there be a parallel between Kylo and Ren's training - and the final battle is between them. And she gets to gut that fucker.
posted by crossoverman at 5:39 PM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

We're planning on watching RoTJ again sometime this weekend, but can anyone settle a family argument before then? It's Admiral Ackbar who says "It's a trap!" But then doesn't the ship he's on explode, with him on it? But he (Admiral Ackbar) was in TFA (I checked IMDB). The internets aren't very helpful on this score.

So, was it Admiral Ackbar on the ship that blew up in RoTJ?
posted by cooker girl at 6:07 PM on December 30, 2015

No. They cut to Ackbar suggesting retreat right after the ship is blown up. He's on a different one.
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:10 PM on December 30, 2015

AH! Yes! Now I remember!

THANK YOU.
posted by cooker girl at 6:11 PM on December 30, 2015

And, just to add my two cents about TFA...

Luke was always my favorite (I choose to look past the wooden acting, thank you very much) because Reasons (let's just boil it down to Daddy Issues and the fact that I already HAD a bad-boy, scoundrel in my household, I NEEDED a good guy who was non-threatening and I was seven, OKAY?) so the last scene just cut me right in two. God, that face. Those eyes. I can't wait for more.

I loved TFA. Loved it. The prequels were such a disappointment so maybe my expectations were super low but I don't even care. I can't wait to see it again, and my daughter was so fucking PUMPED about all the awesome women, especially Rey. Don't try to tell her that Rey is a Mary Sue, SHE WILL CUT YOU WITH HER WORDS.
posted by cooker girl at 6:19 PM on December 30, 2015 [9 favorites]

There's nothing wrong with choreography, of course. This fight in Fist Of Legend is choreographed to within an inch of its life, but it is wonderful.

The idea here is one that's somewhat difficult to express. Why is one heavily choreographed scene (the Fist of Legend fight) more satisfying than another (any given lightsaber fights from the prequels)?

I think that (Totally) Phantom Menace video gets at the heart of it. The fights are stagey to a huge degree, nobody's really trying to kill anybody. The distance between combatants and the angles of the strikes removes all sense of danger.

Good fight choreography is more visceral, the attacks look like they're meant to land and do damage, or at least disarm. (In the Fist of Legend example, knowing how Hong Kong stunt guys operate, probably more than a few of them actually did land.) To a certain extent, if you're not using Hong Kong stunt men who are willing to actually get hit to sell a stunt, you've got to cheat the camera angles, which the prequels either failed to do or deliberately avoided doing.

One martial arts film I've always really enjoyed is Hero, which is super heavy on the wuxia fantasy elements. People literally fly through the air, summon wind storms, and skip across water on the tips of their swords. But the fights in that movie feel significantly more "real" than the prequel fights, in part because the choreography and execution of that choreography is much tighter and in part because the cinematography of the scene cooperates to compress the distance between combatants to hide the parts where people are swinging swords at targets a foot in front of their opponent's torso. It's not the best fight in the film, but this fight I think demonstrates what I'm talking about pretty well.

Unfortunately, I think the very nature of light sabers makes some traditional aspects of fight choreography difficult to pull off. When you have a laser sword that is able to cut through basically anything, it's hard to sell non-killing blows, which I think is at least partly why the prequel fights look the way they do. When you can't have anybody get hit without them losing a limb, you either have really, really short fights or fights where everybody is waving their laser swords around wildly and not hitting anything but other laser swords.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:32 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Looking at that Library Fight from Hero some more, I think the most striking thing is that the camera's attention strays away from the actual fight so much. It focuses on the reactions of the combatants and bystanders, on Jet Li standing impassive in the background, on the setting of the fight.

Which is I think is actually another point to consider: the scene feels better when it's about something and the fight is just what's happening right now. Darth Maul fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is basically just about the two good guys fighting the bad guy because that's what good guys and bad guys do. Nothing immediately rides on it, nobody really wants anything or has feelings going into that scene other than "let's fight now". Which is certainly a larger failing of the prequels.

But anyway the "imaginary" fight from Hero is maybe a more straightforward example of what I was talking about. The strikes are, for the most part, directed at the opponent's body, and the ones directed at the opponent's weapon are clearly intended to disable said weapon or deflect it to create an opening. When the combatants dodge, a blow lands exactly where they just were, not near where they just were. Where safe choreography conflicts with this, the camera pulls in close and compresses the distances to make things look more dangerous.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:43 PM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

I think lightsabers are nerfed a bit in TFA. Kylo's lightsaber temper tantrums don't cut holes in the hull of his ship and Finn hit Kylo in the shoulder and didn't slice him in half. In STAR WARS, Obi-Wan severs a man's arm in a single stroke, and in REVENGE OF THE SITH, cuts all of Anikan's limbs off with a couple of deft swipes.
posted by chrchr at 7:16 PM on December 30, 2015 [6 favorites]

Kylo is wearing some armor, just as Darth was in Empire when Luke struck him in the shoulder.

Which doesn't explain much, othet than the writers didn't want a limb cut off.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:43 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

R4C5: Big "Noooooo!!": Rey when Han dies

I notice this now in all movies because of CinemaSins, but the NOOO from Finn when Kylo abducts Rey is way more drawn out and dramatic than the one when Han dies. Just saying, and I am pretty sure someone mentioned this upthread already, but that latter one is actually surprising short.
posted by axiom at 7:59 PM on December 30, 2015

I haven't read the whole thread but what if:

Rey becomes an extremely competent Big Bad, and Kylo/Ben finally becomes competent by turning to the Light
posted by glass origami robot at 8:17 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Now any time I go some place new, I want there to be a shot of Finn looking confusedly at the scenery.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:52 PM on December 30, 2015 [3 favorites]

I wonder if Luke will lie to Rey all the time about everything the way Obi-Wan and Yoda lied to him.
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:09 PM on December 30, 2015 [6 favorites]

Unless Kylo saves Leia from Snoke (ugh, please no), I'm not really sure there's an equivalent arc for him.

What if Rey saves him?

There was some definite chemistry between them during the mind-raid sequence and the battle in the woods. I'm so conflicted about this because the chemistry in the mind-raid scene was indisputably rapey, and Rey's fighting back and getting into HIS mind was a major cheering moment.

Also there was so much uncomfortable coerciveness way back when, when Han was basically forcing himself on Leia... I mean she did want him, but the way it was portrayed was gross. And I sure wouldn't want to see that reprised in 2015-17.

Also, for there to be a thing between Rey and Ren, we'd have to throw all the theories on Rey's parentage out the window. Cuz I doubt SW is going to go all in with the incest thing.

BUT there was definite chemistry (an equally-matched couple); and there was the explicit suggestion that Ren is not beyond redemption; and I don't really see who pulls him back from the brink if it's not Rey?

I'm not shipping here, just speculating about the most likely way the whole thing could end up. Kylo is definitely not totally given over to the Dark Side, even though at the moment he thinks he's accomplished that by killing his father.

Even his taking off his mask (repeatedly) is meant to help us identify with him to some degree as a tortured kid. It's quite possible that love brings him back--not love for his family a la Vader, but love for a partner.

Also why you would cast Adam Driver without SOME kind of plan in this direction I couldn't begin to explain.

Now, how Rey could get to a point of forgiving him for what she witnessed is another thing, but that could be a whole other interesting storyline.

ALSO!! This theory would have the added benefit of potentially allowing Poe and Finn to carry on with their thing without creating any other awkward confusion or love triangles.
posted by torticat at 9:41 PM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

Does anyone else want to see Leia get to use a lightsabre?
In at least one fight?

Because I would love that.
posted by Mezentian at 10:03 PM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

Yeah, seeing Leia using the Force at all would be grreat.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:11 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

Does anyone else want to see Leia get to use a lightsabre?

Doesn't EVERYONE want to see this?
posted by crossoverman at 10:12 PM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

RE: Rey's parentage, my hope is that Luke says one line and drops it forever. "Your father was a great student of mine, Kyle Katarn, one of many killed by Snoke. Your mother hid you after the etc." Mega fans are happy, the new EU takes whatever bits people remember as good from that very large section of the old EU without any of the old baggage, and everybody else has the question answered. But it's probably just going to be Luke.
posted by sandswipe at 10:12 PM on December 30, 2015 [6 favorites]

I am convinced Leia uses the force a lot in the films, but she's a passive user.

Until I saw TFA it kind of slipped me by that she flies the Falcon and is basically in charge of Hoth base.

Incidentally, I just discovered this via Gizio9: The Lost Rebel pilots of ROTJ. I'd never seen it before, so Granny X-Wing Pilot, Southern Ackbar and Admiral Madine were all new to me.
posted by Mezentian at 10:21 PM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

Until I saw TFA it kind of slipped me by that she flies the Falcon

Wait, she does? Explain?
posted by torticat at 10:29 PM on December 30, 2015

Look, we're all going to ride on the Star Destroyer Finn/Rey OTP, and anyone who suggests getting off and going somewhere else will get fed to a rathtar.
posted by Anonymous at 10:32 PM on December 30, 2015

She helps out Chewbacca in and around the asteroid field while Han is fixing the hyperdrive.
posted by Mezentian at 10:32 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Look, we're all going to ride on the Star Destroyer Finn/Rey OTP, and anyone who suggests getting off and going somewhere else will get fed to a rathtar.

What? I think it was pretty clearly telegraphed that that that relationship is a platonic friendship. Where is the evidence to the contrary?

Guess I'll be looking out for that rathtar.

But seriously--Rey kisses him on the forehead and says she's sure she will see him again, "MY FRIEND." Leaving aside that there could be a Finn/Poe relationship, where on earth is there any indication of anything between Rey and Finn?
posted by torticat at 10:50 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

"Got a boyfriend? A cute boyfriend?"
posted by cgc373 at 10:55 PM on December 30, 2015

More elaborate Tumblr post about Finn and Rey's potential feelings.
posted by cgc373 at 10:58 PM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

But seriously--Rey kisses him on the forehead and says she's sure she will see him again, "MY FRIEND." Leaving aside that there could be a Finn/Poe relationship, where on earth is there any indication of anything between Rey and Finn?

Finn's obviously into Rey from the first time they meet, as for the reciprocation Rey's shown getting warmer and warmer to him throughout the movie. We are going to see more fuzzies in the next two movies, ferreals. Han and Leia didn't get into it until the end of ESB. There is at least a whole four hours more to cement this TRUE LOVE.

While I respect the aspirations of Good Ship PoeFinn, they've shown more bromance than romance towards each other.

EDIT: basically everything in that Tumblr post OK? this is real
posted by Anonymous at 11:04 PM on December 30, 2015

Much like Poe Dameron points out to General Hux in Ex Machina, Rey's the only awake, actually fully human woman Finn's ever met, plus she is amazing - how could he not have a crush on her? Well, apart from if he has a crush on Poe, which I'm certainly not ruling out, even with the "cute boyfriend" comments.

Side note - how does a raised-from-birth Stormtrooper know about boyfriends? Are some of the Stormtroopers boy/girlfriends of each other? How far does their conditioning go?
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:07 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Uh, you're all wrong. It's clearly going to end in finn/rey/poe. DUH.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 12:45 AM on December 31, 2015

It's clearly going to end in finn/rey/poe. DUH.

Only on the Tumblrs.
posted by Mezentian at 1:55 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

Wrt Leia and the Force-- Is it weird that I DONT want Leia to use a saber? Maybe I'm projecting but I always got the feeling that she was the instinct force-choker in her generation of the family (Jabba), the twin who got her daddy's rage. I assumed she made the decision not to learn extraordinary physical violence because she knew her anger and knew that was a road she didn't want to go down. IDK, I look at Leia and think if she ever became a warrior, it would be a long hard story about learning to come to grips with your own capacity for violence-- like Xena or some of the women's arcs in BSG-- that isn't something in Luke's nature, and that doesn't really fit in Star Wars. And anyway Leia doesn't have time to become a martial arts master, her life's work is making the Galaxy into a functioning democracy where her skills as a diplomat and political and military leader are her greatest assets. Channeling the Force to help her pilot the Falcon or using her abilities in other ways? Sure. A sword??? Eh... she always liked blasters more anyway.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 1:56 AM on December 31, 2015 [13 favorites]

Wait, what, that's still the same thread you are reading? - my mrs
posted by Iteki at 2:36 AM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

This has to be the biggest ever thread in FanFare, right?
posted by kmz at 2:40 AM on December 31, 2015

It's up to 1673 comments, about 177,000 words so far. Take you a few hours to read through from the top.

On Leia and the light sabre, it's worth remembering that Maz was supposed to give Anakin's light sabre to Leia. We even saw that in a trailer. Giving it to Rey instead (edit: via Finn) was a late change. What Leia was supposed to do with it is left unsaid.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 2:50 AM on December 31, 2015

The great thing about Finn and Rey is that they work as either friends or lovers.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:12 AM on December 31, 2015

Wait.... $300 for this? OTOH, nailed it.
posted by Mezentian at 4:11 AM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]

I can't believe this film has been out as long as it has and the Internet has failed to capitalize on the comedy potential of a John Kricfalusi- style Ren & Snokey.
posted by Shepherd at 5:48 AM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]

Anyone else laughing at the Charlie Rose interview with George Lucas? Specifically the line, "Every movie, I work very hard to make them completely different, with different planets, with different spaceships, make it new." Oh, that wacky Lucas humour...
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:11 AM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

"Every movie, I work very hard to make them completely different, with different planets, with different spaceships, make it new."

That's a hell of a lot of words to say "toyetic", George.
posted by radwolf76 at 6:32 AM on December 31, 2015 [5 favorites]

I'm definitely laughing at how his idea of keeping new movies fresh revolves around spaceships and planets, and not story or characters.

Also, "white slavers" wtf?
posted by tocts at 7:06 AM on December 31, 2015 [7 favorites]

I finally was able to see it yesterday. I loved it! Got home and spent all of last evening reading all the things, including this thread that I had been diligently avoiding. So glad I managed to see it spoiler free.

I fell in complete love with Rey when she commented about Finn holding her hand and her character just got better and better from there.

I ended up seeing it with two women who have not seen all the movies. Both had seen the first one 20ish years ago and that was it. I spent the drive up and lunch before hand filling them in on the other movies so all they had going in was that and whatever they've happened to pick from pop culture over the years.

So it was really interesting to get their perspective. The verdict from them 'wow it was great' and on the hour drive home we talked about all the parts we liked just like little kids. They both now want more especially Rey because it was so awesome to have a character like that.

They both said that they didn't realize it would be so funny. What I thought was cool, especially on reading this thread about their being so much fan service and reflections of the past movies was it all worked really well for them, who wouldn't recognize any of it. Even the joke about Phasma and the trash compactor worked because of just the idea of a trash compactor was funny enough that they didn't need the extra meta level to laugh.

Of course there are problems with it but overall I think Abrams et al did a pretty good job of creating a piece that satisfied an uber fan like me and was enjoyable for people new to the universe. It really created two new fans. The best was afterwards one of the women said she could now understand why I love Star Wars so much and then talked about trying out some Jedi mind tricks on our boss because that was so great. Before the movie she wouldn't have had a clue what a Jedi mind trick even was!
posted by Jalliah at 7:24 AM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm definitely laughing at how his idea of keeping new movies fresh revolves around spaceships and planets, and not story or characters.

I think it just means Lucas knew his audience. In my neighborhood, we kids definitely wondered more about the new ships and planets each new episode would bring than we wondered about character or story. Our Pee-Chees weren't covered with drawings of Han Solo's character arc.
posted by notyou at 7:33 AM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

And some of us wondered what was going to happen to Luke/Leia/Han/Chewie and how Darth Vader was gonna mess with them and where they came from and how they were going to handle it all.

Don't assume that because the kids you knew didn't care about character development that other kids didn't, too.
posted by cooker girl at 7:37 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

I saw TFA for a second time yesterday, after reading all the nitpicking here (and linked from here) over the past two weeks, and enjoyed it just as much as the first time, which was a hell of a lot. It stands up to repeat viewing tremendously well.

My 8-year-old son was more scared by Kylo Ren this time around. Hard to believe they've come up with a villain to match the Vader of IV and V, but they have. Taking off the mask was a master-stroke.

The "Ren was asking for help to turn fully dark" interpretation transformed that scene for me, and now I can't see it any other way.

The moment when Rey force-grabbed the lightsaber from the snow made me well up. I can't wait to show this to my daughter when she's old enough.
posted by rory at 8:12 AM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

Star Wars was and is attractive and fun for people for a variety of reasons. I was listening to a podcast where a guy said he got pulled into the Expanded Universe entirely because of a friend who obsessed over the ships and other tech specs. It's been so long since I picked up Timothy Zahn and resumed the adventure that I can no longer recall what was my driving interest of force. I definitely wanted to know what happened after Endor, but at the same time, loved coming home after school and flying an A-wing for a couple hours in X-Wing.
posted by Atreides at 8:19 AM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]

Not sure if it's been linked in this thread, but Greg Rucka's novel, Before the Awakening, reveals a lot about Finn's background:

Finn has grown up as part of a four-man (or boy) fire-team consisting of himself, FN-2187, and three others, FN-2199, FN-2000 and FN-2003. Respectively, Finn's training mates have acquired the nicknames Nines, Zero, and Slip — the former after their alpha-numerical designations and the latter because he is often slipping up. But FN-2187 doesn't have a nickname. Why? A seasoned stormtrooper figures him out right away, after finding out that he's also the team's leader: "An outsider. You're on the outside, and you'll always be looking in and wondering why you don't belong."

It's a detail that adds a whole extra layer of pathos to the way Finn embraces the nickname Poe gives him. He's barely met Poe, and yet the fighter pilot has already shown him that he can find a place to belong outside of the First Order.

Another reason why FN-2187 is isolated from his peers is his aptitude. He's well on his way to becoming a model stormtrooper, scoring "in the top 1 percent" in exams, an expert with tactics as well as blasters and hand-to-hand weapons. As far as his superiors — who include Gwendoline Christie's Captain Phasma — are concerned, FN-2187 has only one flaw: he cares about this teammates just as much, if not more, than accomplishing mission objectives. It speaks, Phasma says, to a "dangerous level of empathy." Otherwise, she'd have fast-tracked him for officer training already. After watching him go out of his way to compensate for Slip's slip-ups one too many times, Phasma orders him to stop coddling FN-2003 for the good of the First Order.

So no wonder he responded so well to Poe giving him a nickname and explains how he was able to handle himself ok against Kylo (he really is a bad ass). Might also explain who the dying Stormtrooper was (Slip) and the baton twirling one might have been Nines or Zero, based on how he called Finn "traitor.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:56 AM on December 31, 2015 [11 favorites]

But he has more aptitude than they do, how did he get so badly beaten against the baton trooper?
posted by numaner at 10:18 AM on December 31, 2015

More aptitude than his peers doesn't translate to more than veterans in the field. Before the village slaughter he'd never seen combat I think, right?
posted by ODiV at 10:21 AM on December 31, 2015

But he has more aptitude than they do, how did he get so badly beaten against the baton trooper?

No one WANTS to kill the brother they grew up with. Except Kylo, of course.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:25 AM on December 31, 2015

Star Wars: The Force Awakens by Up and Out
posted by numaner at 10:29 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

But he has more aptitude than they do, how did he get so badly beaten against the baton trooper?

No one WANTS to kill the brother they grew up with. Except Kylo, of course.

I take it the stormtrooper he ran the lightsaber through was from a different squad and probably peed in his helmet a bunch of times. That DK-P155 was a real jerk.
posted by numaner at 10:31 AM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

Re: fight choreography and aerial dogfights

I just want to say that the way the air battle over Maz Kanata's was visible from and interacted with the wide-ranging ground battle was fascinatingly well-done, to me.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:34 AM on December 31, 2015 [9 favorites]

I have decided that I'm just not going to think too hard about Finn's background, and wave away any unbelievability in how he behaves based on "we are seeing a retelling of a myth." It's sort of a silly thing to do, but it's the only way I can accept Finn as we see him in TFA and get on with the rest of the experience.

This works with the prequels too.

My headcanon for how Finn is able to act like a normal guy is that all Stormtroopers are allowed to go on Rumspringa just before entering into active duty.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:35 AM on December 31, 2015 [10 favorites]

Death Star Truthers
posted by numaner at 10:37 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

George Lucas has criticized the latest installment of “Star Wars,” the series he created, in an interview with Charlie Rose, describing the film as too “retro” for his taste and jokingly comparing the Walt Disney Company, which bought the rights to the franchise in 2012, to “white slavers” who had bought his children.

FFS. White slavers?

Also, "too retro." Uh huh. Whatever.

“The first three movies had all kinds of issues,” he said of the original trilogy, which was released between 1977 and 1983.

Which goes a long way to explain all his futzing with them in the DVR releases, and why the prequels were so vastly different in feel (imo: much, much worse).

“They looked at the stories and said, ‘We want to make something for the fans.’ All I wanted to do was tell a story of what happened. It started here, and it went there.”

George Lucas: Fuck the fans! Those guys don't know shit! What did they ever do for me?
Disney: Um, made you lots of money and the Founding Father of a beloved movie franchise.
GL: Yeah, well, I don't like the way the first three movies LOOK anymore, and I want to tell a different story, with midichlorians! And trade blockades! And super-cool-not-boring Senate business! And women who DIE when they're SAD and leave their NEWBORN TWINS basically orphaned!
D: Okay, George. We'll just take the franchise off your hands.
posted by cooker girl at 10:48 AM on December 31, 2015 [10 favorites]

This works with the prequels too.

I'm not so sure -- or maybe it's a question of degrees. With TFA, it feels enough like the bits of IV that I liked that I'm okay letting go of the parts that ring false. With the prequels, it's a bunch of poorly executed stuff that I don't like with tiny bursts of "okay, this is maybe kind of okay."
posted by Alterscape at 10:52 AM on December 31, 2015

George, you didn't have to sell and become insanely rich, so shhhhh.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:04 AM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

You'd think that Disney would have inserted a clause in the multi-billion dollar contract stipulating that Lucas needed to shut the fuck up.
posted by octothorpe at 11:14 AM on December 31, 2015 [13 favorites]

So, the "white slavery" comment is not great, but it's more a sign of Lucas being old and out of touch than anything else. The term was in common use in mainstream media as late as the 1990s, and there are even laws on the books with that phrase in the title.

But the general negative tenor of Lucas's comments shows that he is still in desperate need of a close advisor in his life to tell him "No" on occasion. He only stands to benefit from the near-universal positive response to TFA, as it has bolstered people's good memories and feelings about the original trilogy, while somewhat effacing the visceral revulsion and sense of betrayal many felt in the wake of the prequels.

Pissy public commentary and sour grapes grousing will only squander whatever goodwill he has been fortunate enough to recapture.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:19 AM on December 31, 2015 [8 favorites]

George, how can we miss you if you won't GO AWAY?!
posted by entropicamericana at 11:19 AM on December 31, 2015 [12 favorites]

numaner:

"But he has more aptitude than they do, how did he get so badly beaten against the baton trooper?"

Lightsabers don't really have any weight except for in the hilt. There's no leverage there. When two Jedi are going at it, they're using the Force to put some weight behind their blows. (Sidenote: That's also why the original slow, ponderous lightsaber duels made sense - they were more about exerting Force in a pushing match than dancing around.)

Anyways, that baton had some heft to it and the handle was designed to exert a lot of leverage. Finn could block but all he had was his wrist strength to fend off attacks.
posted by charred husk at 11:23 AM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

What must really especially make his blood boil is that it is specifically his narcissism and overreach — his tendency to believe his own propaganda about himself — that made the world realize that his ex-wife is the one with all the real talent.

I mean seriously that's got to burn. Twenty years ago everyone thought he was a genius filmmaker with a unique ability to put together resonant adventure stories drawn from Campbellian archetypes. Today, everyone knows that he's a clumsy hack, and that the woman who divorced him is the one who knows how to make movies. George Lucas has experienced the most thorough comeuppance possible, and it's all his own fault.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:28 AM on December 31, 2015 [13 favorites]

Anyways, that baton had some heft to it and the handle was designed to exert a lot of leverage. Finn could block but all he had was his wrist strength to fend off attacks.

but once the blades made contact, regardless if there is weight in your blade or not, aren't you still using wrist strength? I'd chalk it up to more that he's not familiar with handling a lightsaber, but contact between two light-weight but stiff objects still gives you a mass to exert yourself against, right?
posted by numaner at 11:30 AM on December 31, 2015

I just want to say that the way the air battle over Maz Kanata's was visible from and interacted with the wide-ranging ground battle was fascinatingly well-done, to me.

Yes, absolutely. I think anybody who claims the dogfights stack up poorly to the Original Trilogy is mainly comparing the Death Star attack to the Bigger Death Star attack. Which I think is a fair comparison to make, but it ignores that the other two dogfight sequences in TFA are straight-up virtuosic.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:31 AM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]

Re: George. Did you guys see him in the Kennedy Center Honors videos? That is a man who is very out of touch.
posted by numaner at 11:33 AM on December 31, 2015

that made the world realize that his ex-wife is the one with all the real talent...
the woman who divorced him is the one who knows how to make movies...

Unless you have some inside dirt about their personal lives, it's a little weird to double down on this, as if it's somehow the smoking gun that proves Lucas must be a monster as a person, in addition to his failings as an artist. Plenty of people get divorced; it's not some Rosetta stone to unlock the secrets of their awfulness.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:42 AM on December 31, 2015 [5 favorites]

In a recent interview (maybe not recent, I'm not sure), she explained that she wanted more out of life than just work, and George was all about working more and making more films and she didn't want that, so she left.
posted by numaner at 12:14 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't think I even have words to express how angry I would be if they had Rey fall in love with Kylo Ren, speaking of shippers. (I saw zero chemistry, but that's neither here nor there.)

The last thing I want is for her to have to redeem or otherwise "save" a rotten manchild with the power of her luv. That's such a demeaning story line for such a strong character, giving her the job of changing the villain for the better through feeeelings. Nevermind the fact that he's already abused her, tortured her, killed her mentor, grievously wounded her friend, and blew up several planets. Why can't she just stab him the face with a lightsaber instead?

Incidentally, it's why I'd adore it if they didn't end up pairing Rey and Finn either: she doesn't need a love interest, she needs a heroic journey.

Finn and Poe should feel super free to get it on, though.
posted by lydhre at 12:22 PM on December 31, 2015 [20 favorites]

yep, a Brave style of story where it turns out to be a family and doesn't end with a love interest for the heroine would be alright with me.
posted by numaner at 12:28 PM on December 31, 2015 [7 favorites]

But he has more aptitude than they do, how did he get so badly beaten against the baton trooper?

Aptitude is not experience or training. In TFA he tells us he'd been in working in Sanitation, which is how he knows so much about the Doom Star's layout. Perhaps somewhere between the quote from Before the Awakening above, and TFA, Finn's promising career was re-directed and he missed all the good, fighty stuff.

My headcanon for how Finn is able to act like a normal guy is that all Stormtroopers are allowed to go on Rumspringa just before entering into active duty.

In the Clone Wars animated TV show, those guys show all sorts of individual, normal person behavior, despite being highly trained clones. In TFA, the First Order's Stormtroopers aren't clones, they're people like Finn who were press-ganged into the life when they were kids and brain-washed or whatever, to varying degrees of effectiveness. "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers..." et cetera. The training sucks, maybe. That sorta also explains why Phasma so quickly caves in to Finn's demands to lower the Doom Star's shields. And the funny way those Stormtroopers nope right out of there when Kylo Ren has a fit after Rey escaped.
posted by notyou at 12:51 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

yep, a Brave style of story where it turns out to be a family and doesn't end with a love interest for the heroine would be alright with me.

One of the many reasons I love Lilo & Stitch, where the love interest is simply Elvis Presley.
posted by sweetmarie at 12:55 PM on December 31, 2015 [8 favorites]

notyou, my personal problem isn't that Finn's behavior isn't in alignment with the behavior of other soldiers in Star Wars canon, it's that canon isn't in alignment with my mental model of how trained soldiers act and interact. It's not the fact that they have individual personality or that they do things like "nope" out when Kylo Ren is throwing a tantrum, it's that they don't talk like trained soldiers, well, pretty much ever.

I think I'm unusually sensitive to this because I work with soldiers semi-frequently, so I have a sense for the sort of "esprit de corps" (as one article put it) and shared vocabulary they have. For example: Wubbie -- a soldier's poncho-liner. Skunyon/Skunyan -- rounds downrange blowing stuff up. I'm not saying that I think Star Wars stormtroopers should use contemporary US infantry slang, but I feel strongly that they ought to have their own vernacular reflecting the fact that they're trained together and isolated from outside culture from a very young age. That they just talk like everybody else in the Star Wars universe, and have no trouble adjusting to talking to civilians, sort of bothers me.

If stormtrooper training is so ineffective, I'm not really sure how the Empire worked at all! Then again, we've been saying for 30 years that Stormtroopers can't hit anything, so maybe it's canonical that they're not ACTUALLY an effective fighting force, just something something something Dark Side something something Destiny.

So I choose to reconcile this by , as I said upthread, assuming what we're seeing is a retelling from oral history by someone who doesn't really grok military life. Those details get lost. And the story (which is really about family drama, not war in space, as much as the title might try to tell us otherwise), aside from my knowing-too-much-about-a-thing-not-to-notice, really isn't that much the worse for it.
posted by Alterscape at 1:30 PM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

Feminist Frequency: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Review
posted by Nelson at 1:44 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

So here is the broad strokes of how I'd like the third movie to end, based on what we've seen in this one:

THE END OF THE NEW TRILOGY
a fanfiction in 19 bullet points, written over the course of a long lunch break

Rey is hella powerful now. She's not just a trainee, she's not Luke in RotJ, she's a totally unstoppable ubermage, something like a light-side Palpatine, just more so.
Or at least she was like a light-side Palpatine until she started saying and doing some... not exactly dark side, but maybe dark sideish things near the end of the second movie. Presumably the thing that sets her on the dark side path is the violent death of her beloved mentor, Luke Skywalker, at the hands of ~~Rilo Kiley~~ Kylo Ren.
Maybe Ren offered her Ultimate Power at the end of the second movie — "Join me, and we will rule the galaxy together as Snape and Hermione!" — but she turned him down. But did she turn him down because she doesn't want power, or did she turn him down because she realized he's just a scrub compared to her?
So anyway, Jedi business aside, the First Order, which has been pushed back to a few systems by the Republic fleets under the brilliant leadership of General Organa, reveals its new ultraweapon, something like the Starkiller but this time maybe less janky and broken.
Moreover, they've pulled back their entire fleet to defend it — because seriously what kind of empire builds a glass-cannon megaweapon like the Starkiller and doesn't station their fleet around it to defend against stunt fighters?
The First Order is picking off Republic planets through hyperspace one by one, starting at the center and working their way out. It's bad times yo — if the Republic doesn't get rid of Starkiller 2.0 This Time We Mean It, trillions and trillions of people will die and then the First Order will rule forever.
Red Squadron is on the case, though. There will be a whopping huge space battle, because Star Wars is about progressively more whoppingly huge space battles against progressively worse odds for progressively higher stakes. As the plan goes, the Republic fleet will jump out of hyperspace right into the thick of the First Order fleet (a fleet featuring multiple SSDs and you know all the right callbacks to RotJ). In the chaos this causes, a small team of X-Wing pilots led of course by Poe Dameron will cruise straight for [insert weak point here], even though everyone knows (but no one says) that it'll be a suicide mission.
Finn (and, surprise, the now Resistance-aligned Captain Phasma!) will lead a ground assault on [macguffin] to [lower the shield or whatever] to allow Red Squadron to get to [weak point] on [Starkiller 2.0]. While they deal with the ground troops, a crack team of infiltrators (including Rey) will enter [the building where the thing that controls the shield lives] and blow it up.
Immediately before the mission, Finn meets Poe at his X-Wing to say their goodbyes. It's awkward "stay safe out there bro" stuff, until Poe decides that it's now or never and kisses Finn so passionately. While Poe is climbing into his X-Wing, Finn (with the most adorably confused expression on his face) says "I love you." Poe says... well, I don't have to tell you what a hotshot bad boy pilot in the Star Wars universe says when someone he loves tells him "I love you" for the first time, especially when both people involved are facing mortal peril.
[action sequence ensues]. the details don't matter, aside from how I think the ground battle should end when we realize that Finn's successful escape and rise to leadership in the Resistance has inspired other stormtroopers to mutiny. So just when it looks like all hope is lost for Finn and Phasma (and for the attack as a whole), a bunch of First Order grunts reveal themselves to be members of the underground Finn's Army by turning their weapons on their own officers.
This is how Kylo Ren dies: he's shot in the back of the head by one of his own guards.
Rey is down on the surface of the planet, about to disable the [macguffin] so that the [shield or whatever] [falls] and Poe and the gang can break through to blow up [the access panel or whatever], thus saving the galaxy
Maybe the macguffin she needs to macguffin is on a pillar accessed by a big bridge over a giant pit, who knows.
While she's doing the whatever she needs to do, she realizes that as the most powerful Force user the galaxy has seen in millennia, she could leave the shield up, mind-whammy her way into control of Starkiller 2.0, and rule the galaxy as a beautiful wise terrible dark queen.
Why is General Organa on the surface of the planet? Maybe she was the leader of the infiltration team? Maybe she was just in a forward command post? Who knows. It doesn't matter. The important thing is that we know that General Organa is on the surface of the planet. And as Rey tries to figure out whether she's light side or dark side, whether she's going to clear the way for Starkiller 2.0 to get blown up or take control of it for herself, behind her we see Leia, who has more or less taken Rey on as a surrogate daughter, walking across the bridge.
"Disable the shield, Rey." she says. Rey hesitates. "I... need your help." she says. We can see that she's tightly gripping her lightsaber hilt.
Leia, who has never once in the course of six movies overtly used Force powers, Force-grabs Rey's saber away from her, and then throws it over the side of the bridge. "No you don't," she says. Balance is restored to the Force. Rey disables the shield.
Poe and the gang fly in, blow up Starkiller 2.0, fly back home. The First Order is dead, replaced with a democratic New Order. Finn and Poe get together, a few years later Finn gets elected to the New Galactic Senate, he's President Organa's right-hand man in the legislative branch (or maybe he's the Revolutionary President of the New Order? Or do they elect Phasma instead?). Rey goes into seclusion to study the ways of the force, but she's pretty happy about it, because the force is fascinating — tinkering with the force is like tinkering with a starship, just a thousand times more so. Everything is wonderful for everyone.
Well, except for those rumors of a new threat from outside the galaxy... but that's a matter for another trilogy.

posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:50 PM on December 31, 2015 [14 favorites]

That they just talk like everybody else in the Star Wars universe, and have no trouble adjusting to talking to civilians, sort of bothers me.

I'm not sure I would describe Finn as having no trouble talking to civilians. His attempts at normal folk speak are played for laughs. And I love what a huge dork he is when trying to look cool to Rey and Han, as well as his sass toward Phasma.
posted by Fleebnork at 2:07 PM on December 31, 2015 [7 favorites]

Apropos of nothing, my Finn/Poe reading of Finn's "Got a boyfriend? Cute boyfriend?" line is not that he wants to know if Rey is available but that he wants to know if Rey has a cute boyfriend whom he can steal.

Count me in the "Rey shouldn't be romantically paired with anybody" crowd, though. Luke didn't have a girlfriend at the end of RotJ, Rey doesn't need a partner at the end of Thing of the Other Thing either.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:26 PM on December 31, 2015 [6 favorites]

yeah, just like my favorite Hermione ship is "Hermione/Devotion to her Job as Minister for Magic" — admittedly, this devotion doesn't get in the way of keeping Viktor Krum as a side piece — I hold that the appropriate Rey ship is "Rey/Understanding the Ways of the Force."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:31 PM on December 31, 2015 [10 favorites]

it's the only way I can accept Finn as we see him in TFA and get on with the rest of the experience.

I've been reading this thread for what feels like a VERY long time and it's still cracking me up every time to read TFA as "the full article."
posted by torticat at 2:46 PM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

oh duh of course: in the scenario above, Leia demands to be on the infiltration team (over the objections of all the other top Republic/Resistance leaders because seriously she's too important to risk) specifically because she thinks Rey might be going darkside and she knows she's the only one who can stop her.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:46 PM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

For posterity, as mentioned above:

Variety, 12/30/2015 - "George Lucas Says He Sold ‘Star Wars’ to ‘White Slavers’"

Variety, 12/31/2015 - "George Lucas Backpedals on ‘Star Wars’ ‘White Slavers’ Remark"
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:03 PM on December 31, 2015

The last thing I want is for her to have to redeem or otherwise "save" a rotten manchild with the power of her luv. That's such a demeaning story line for such a strong character, giving her the job of changing the villain for the better through feeeelings. Nevermind the fact that he's already abused her, tortured her, killed her mentor, grievously wounded her friend, and blew up several planets. Why can't she just stab him the face with a lightsaber instead?

Well, Luke was also given the job of changing a villain through feeeelings. Was it demeaning for him? And I do think Rey was portrayed in a way that showed she cares about even the smallest potential in people (or sentient beings)--witness how she rescued BB8 and fixed his (her?) little antenna.

Incidentally, it's why I'd adore it if they didn't end up pairing Rey and Finn either: she doesn't need a love interest, she needs a heroic journey.

...but yes, I totally agree with this. Would love it if they would actually do it, ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT that they did it in this movie; just don't think it's likely they'll be able to stick it out for the next two!
posted by torticat at 4:07 PM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

Also, re: Marcia Lucas, there's a pretty recent article on her, "The ‘secret weapon’ behind Star Wars" (warning: autoplaying interview video), and a chapter on Marcia Lucas from book "Secret History of Star Wars".
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:09 PM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

George Lucas Says He Sold ‘Star Wars’ to ‘White Slavers'

Oh. Okay. Oooooooh-kay. Time to install a browser plugin that will replace all instances of "George Lucas" with "fuckboy."
posted by duffell at 4:14 PM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

as well as his sass toward Phasma.

My interpretation of Han's "bring it down....bring it down" when Finn is excitably threatening Phasma is that it was unscripted, and was actually just acting advice from Ford that he couldn't help but express. But they kept it in, due to hilarious appropriateness.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:25 PM on December 31, 2015 [8 favorites]

Well, Luke was also given the job of changing a villain through feeeelings. Was it demeaning for him?

You don't think there might be a little bit of a difference between a son trying to reconcile with his father and a woman trying to redeem a violent asshole through the power of romantic love?
posted by tobascodagama at 4:51 PM on December 31, 2015 [16 favorites]

I'd love to see Rey redeem Ren but platonically, not romantically. It would be so great if it turned out that she's both so strong in the Force and so clear-minded and true-hearted that she was able to help him turn back toward the light side without it being due to magical kisses.

Pet theory: I will be entirely unsurprised if at the end of Episode IX it turns out to have been about Buddhism... in... spaaaaaace all along, and that the ultimate lesson is that neither the Jedi nor the Sith/Ren/whoever have understood things correctly because the Force is not about trying to have light without dark or dark without light, it's about acceptance of both light and dark and about nonattachment to either.
posted by Lexica at 5:15 PM on December 31, 2015 [18 favorites]

Lexica: oh me gee YES, wrt the resolution to the story of the Force being something other than either the Jedi or the Sith. Some of the stuff Maz said — specifically, the way she names the Jedi and the Sith as just part of a list of groups that have been involved in use of the Force.

randomness: what do people think of Maz? I have to admit I like her — she's a Force witch outside the (boyzone) Jedi/Sith binary, right? Like this is how we are to interpret her, no?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:29 PM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]

I also liked Maz, too. I wouldn't mind more of Maz in the future and am kind of disappointed more Maz was cut from the film (such as her handing Leia Luke's lightsaber). I wouldn't call her a witch, though. By her own admission, she isn't a Force user, so much someone who observes it and is aware of it.
posted by Atreides at 5:38 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

. I wouldn't call her a witch, though. By her own admission, she isn't a Force user, so much someone who observes it and is aware of it.

I dunno man that sounds like force witch talk to me...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:03 PM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

...and she looks like she weighs the same as a duck, so....
posted by coriolisdave at 6:08 PM on December 31, 2015 [13 favorites]

Wait, come on, they put those glasses on her!
posted by Atreides at 6:13 PM on December 31, 2015 [7 favorites]

The redemption of Anakin bothers me, as does the redemption of Ren. Vader murdered all those kids in Ep 3. Then he participates in murdering all those innocents on Alderan, a far bigger crime than any real life historic villan. His redeeming act is to turn on the Emporer and protect his son, hardly a selfless act. Furthermore the act is untimately meaningless. If Palpatine kiled Luke then he and Vader would likely have perished moments later when the Death Star exploded.
That would have been a better ending IMO. The Sith and Jedi orders come to an end.
posted by humanfont at 6:19 PM on December 31, 2015

Much more on Lucas's sore-loser cluelessness.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:54 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

Furthermore the act is ultimately meaningless. If Palpatine killed Luke then he and Vader would likely have perished moments later when the Death Star exploded.

Without Vader's sacrifice, Luke dies. So, meaningful for Luke and the Jedi at least.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:58 PM on December 31, 2015

omg you guys. this thread. I can't even. I've been reading it for a goddamn week and can't keep up.

Went back to see it again today and I HAVE ALL OF THE FEELS.

This is a movie that rewards repeated viewings. So much is happening, and there are so many excellent performances.

Observations, in no particular order:

- The dogfights are goddamned amazing. Visceral, immersive, no stupid shaky-cam or distracting jumpcutting. The ones that involve ground action show brilliant continuity of shots from wingman POV to ground POV, etc.

- Maz is badass, lovely creature design, brilliant acting. if you disagree I WILL FIGHT YOU. I am relieved Lupita Nyong'o stepped in to preempt any internet scolds finger-wagging her choice to voice act a CG character... aaand I also kind of hate that she had to do that, y'know?

- Poe Dameron is yummy, yummy ficfodder and I'm so glad they chose to use him in small doses. The camera loves him such that he could easily become too much of a good thing. This is Rey's story and I think they're wise to allow it space to breathe without Poe's charisma sucking all the oxygen out of the room.

- that said, I'd bet the Ship to Launch a Million Fics is Kylo Ren + General Hux. Because why not?

- Han and Leia are a bit Over It, but still full of love and snark, wisdom and steel, both of them.

- Rey is the fantasy character I wanted to be when I was a kid.

- I want a BB-8. Any astromech really, they seem to be handy little buggers, but BB-8 seems less cranky than Artoo.

- that Black Lives Matter piece mentioned upthread is onto something with the stormtroopers being grunts-of-color, and if not exactly that, it's probably some form of othering. Certainly they're grunts-of-no-privilege; the shat-upon dregs of society trying to "make something of themselves", same as anywhere.

- How about this angle: First Order conscripts (and/or associated baby-snatching) are some species of evil criminal justice system fuckery chewing up the weak and dumping them into a toxic stew of military fascism, because of course.

- I'm willing to bet they set the whole first movie up in parallel to ANH just so that they could kick over the anthill and launch off in a completely different direction.

- I'm also totally fine if they don't do that, as long as we keep getting stories of this quality

- that said, I won't be surprised if Rey isn't related to anyone of the main characters, and is just this kid, y'know.

- that is totally a gravestone Luke is standing next to in the closing shot, and I don't know how I missed it the first time.

posted by lonefrontranger at 7:04 PM on December 31, 2015 [6 favorites]

Vader murdered all those kids in Ep 3. Then he participates in murdering all those innocents on Alderan, a far bigger crime than any real life historic villan.

Tarkin is the one who ordered the destruction of Alderaan. Also, Episode III never happened. HTH.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:05 PM on December 31, 2015

Even the younglings?
posted by Artw at 7:11 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

oh holy shit how could I forget?!

YOU GUYS THERE ARE TOTALLY RAILINGS EVERYWHERE! There are plenty of railings, the central bridge is the only exception I saw. The side rails slope down and end about a meter off the main wall gantry because that central bridge is probably just intended as a maintenance access. They don't ACTUALLY want people walking across it for shits and grins. I've seen real catwalks like that in industrial settings, and anytime someone goes out on them they're supposed to be rigged with a high bay fall harness.
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:20 PM on December 31, 2015 [7 favorites]

what do people think of Maz? I have to admit I like her — she's a Force witch

I wasn't sold.

Voice didn't match the body, and didn't convey old or wise to me (but, from my humanocentic point of view) and I found the CGI to be on the wrong side of the uncanny valley, but I am willing to be more open if she does more than provide exposition.

She's Force sensitive though, no argument from me there.
posted by Mezentian at 7:41 PM on December 31, 2015

I just got back from my second viewing. New observations:

-Did anyone else hear the Wilhelm Scream from one of the stormtroopers when Finn and Po were escaping in the stolen TIE Fighter?
-I spotted R2-KT at the Resistance base, as well as the 501st flag at Maz's castle.
-I'm now entirely convinced that Ren deliberately lured Han to his death with carefully chosen words.
-Maz's face looks weird, and it's a failure of the CGI. Parts of her skull move when they shouldn't. But...
-Maz is going to come back, and she's going to be important. Han says she's been around for a thousand years, and that can't just be meaningless background. I think she's going to have a character reveal much like Yoda's: a frivolous exterior hides both wisdom and power. In fact, I think she and Snoke have some sort of shared history. (Possibly more fuel for the Tiny Snoke theory?)
-Luke is definitely standing by a deliberately erected upright stone. It could very well be a grave marker.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:52 PM on December 31, 2015 [6 favorites]

-Maz is going to come back, and she's going to be important. Han says she's been around for a thousand years, and that can't just be meaningless background. I think she's going to have a character reveal much like Yoda's: a frivolous exterior hides both wisdom and power. In fact, I think she and Snoke have some sort of shared history. (Possibly more fuel for the Tiny Snoke theory?)

I think I realized why I like her: it's specifically because she doesn't come off old-and-wise; she comes off in-her-40s-and-throws-great-parties.

I think there's nothing frivolous about her exterior (people like Maz are the best people), but yeah I also think she's a force witch. she just doesn't let it go to her head, like some force sensitives we could name do. cough cough almost every member of the skywalker family cough.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:04 PM on December 31, 2015 [9 favorites]

This has to be the biggest ever thread in FanFare, right?

Yep, it has surpassed the Hannibal final episode thread, which is 1663 comments.

Feminist Frequency: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Review

Another example of why I love Anita's work, even when I don't entirely agree with her. There's some great observations in there, especially about the lead characters. I'm not sure that criticising a Space Opera for not painting the Good vs Evil in more shades of grey makes much sense; in a way, TFA is much more grey than the original trilogy. And certainly this kind of story telling in other contexts can be dangerously simplistic (ie. a present-day war film which valorises the US and demonises a whole nation or race is inexcusable), but Star Wars is playing with myth and legend.

Still, as always, great to hear from Feminist Frequency. She does important work.
posted by crossoverman at 8:08 PM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

Furthermore the act is untimately meaningless. If Palpatine kiled Luke then he and Vader would likely have perished moments later when the Death Star exploded.

I always felt -- and I think this was confirmed in some EU text or another, somewhere along the line -- that Palpatine was directing impacting the morale of the Empire's soldiers, and that his death actually *was* directly responsible for the collapse of the Imperial line during the Battle of Endor.

The Force power called "Battle Meditation" in KOTOR2 is a version of this (and the Wookiepedia entry explicitly ties it to ROTJ).
posted by gerryblog at 8:24 PM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

I always felt -- and I think this was confirmed in some EU text or another, somewhere along the line -- that Palpatine was directing impacting the morale of the Empire's soldiers, and that his death actually *was* directly responsible for the collapse of the Imperial line during the Battle of Endor.

You're right, this was a thing, but I think it's been ditched for the new Expanded Universe. Immediately in the aftermath of Endor, news of his death is treated as Rebel propaganda (with threats to anyone repeating it). Likewise, it's also shown that people are kind of wise to it in certain regards, but a certain level of his machinations were left in place to help "inspire" some people to keep doing what amount to post-mortem orders. Shattered Empire immediately has Han leading troops to take out an Imperial outpost on the other side of the moon, which puts up something of a fight at first. Then the Rebels are left fighting the empire in a variety of places over the next months through to the Battle of Jakku.
posted by Atreides at 8:32 PM on December 31, 2015

Count me among the "I need more Maz Kanata in my life" crowd. It's hard to define what's so appealing about her -- the idea of being Forcey without being a Jedi or Sith might have something to do with it, and certainly Lupita's voice/mocap acting counted for a lot -- but it's enough to overcome the fact that, yeah, the CG work for her was a bit janky compared to the rest of the effects in movie.

If a better world than ours, Maz establishes a new bar at some point and we get a Star Wars TV series about all the stuff that goes down there. Cheers in space.

Anyway, I think You can't tip a Buick is on to something and that we'll probably see the new trilogy totally blow up the whole idea of the Jedi/Sith dichotomy by the end.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:42 PM on December 31, 2015 [6 favorites]

I prefer readings of the series that note that the business on the second death star doesn't really make any difference in the Battle of Endor, and then just, well, leave it that way. We get to see the resolution of the story of the aristocratic Skywalker family, but we also get to see that in the end the motor of history isn't turned by the aristos.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:43 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

I had to work over new year's eve and to stay awake, watched episodes 2 and 3. I had erased episode 2 from memory and possibly episode 3 too in rage-induced amnesia because they are so bad but when I wasn't hissing at the screen, I noticed two possible story threads that would be so great for TFA:

1. Palpatine talking about Darth Grievious to Anakin makes a point of mentioning how his master could use the force to create life - just as Anakin was created. That would make the Skywalkers the Grievous lineage, with an immortal Sith great grandfather (Snoke?) lurking in the background. And also making it possible to have force sensitives like Rey created all over the galaxy by Grievous at his whim.

2. I'm pretty sure Lucas intended the prequels to be some great doomed love affair but watching Anakin now post-Jessica Jones, thanks to the terrible writing and creepy acting, there is a lot of room to posit that Anakin unknowingly, and with Palpatine knowingly aiding, coerced Padme into being his wife, and that her death was suicide to escape the mind-control prison he'd forced her in to. Watching the prequels with Darth Kilgore in mind turns them into a much nastier and more satisfying tragedy, and makes Portman and Christianson's acting into a psychological struggle.

This would be so great to have happen with Luke and Rey - that the Jedi stay away from attachment because they end up unconsciously controlling all the people they love, and that Leia is very very careful to keep that side of her ruthlessly tamped down, aware that she can't make people love her.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:57 PM on December 31, 2015 [13 favorites]

1. Palpatine talking about Darth Grievious to Anakin makes a point of mentioning how his master could use the force to create life - just as Anakin was created. That would make the Skywalkers the Grievous lineage, with an immortal Sith great grandfather (Snoke?) lurking in the background. And also making it possible to have force sensitives like Rey created all over the galaxy by Grievous at his whim.

I think you meant Plagueis (you don't want to see how I tried to spell it with my tired brain), and in the old Expanded Universe, I only recently learned that he was allegedly credited indirectly/directly with Anakin's immaculate conception. There's been some small buzzing whether there's some connection between Plagueis and Snoke (based on Plagueis faking his death to convince Palpatine he had murdered his master).
posted by Atreides at 9:03 PM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]

we get a Star Wars TV series about all the stuff that goes down there. Cheers in space.

I would watch the hell out of this.
posted by dogwalker at 9:17 PM on December 31, 2015 [4 favorites]

Too bad Bea Arthur is no longer with us.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:20 PM on December 31, 2015 [7 favorites]

Foz Meadows has been writing about TFA:

When Rey flies off to find Luke at the end of the film, echoing Luke’s earlier quest to find Yoda in The Empire Strikes Back, she leaves an unconscious Finn with a forehead kiss, murmuring “thank you, my friend” – a declaration which reads as more platonic than romantic. Which isn’t to deny at all that the two have chemistry; far from it, in fact, and as a card-carrying bisexual, I’m more than happy to endorse the idea that Finn is equally attracted to both Rey and Poe. But as the fierce initial pushback to the deliberate lack of a romantic relationship between Sherlock and Joan Watson on Elementary makes clear, our cultural narrative has almost as much trouble accepting platonic friendships between men and women as with explicit queerness of any kind, which makes it all the more vital to at least consider them options.

I would really, really love to see a strong platonic friendship between a man and a woman shown onscreen.
posted by Lexica at 10:07 PM on December 31, 2015 [21 favorites]

Why yes, I'm spending New Year's Eve happily at home with the cat, geeking out on Star Wars. You?

Because Science explains Why Kylo Ren's lightsaber works.
posted by Lexica at 10:34 PM on December 31, 2015

In the scene when Kylo Ren interrogates Rey, he says, "I feel it too. Don't be afraid." What the fuck is he talking about? How does that effect the course of all of these ships?
posted by chrchr at 12:13 AM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm only a third through this thread but something just clicked when I read the theory of Rey being Obi-Wan's granddaughter.

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine"
posted by forforf at 6:46 AM on January 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Saw Star Wars: The Fucking Article three days ago, and just now made it to the bottom of this thread :P

I thought it was good, but not great. Best Star Wars since Empire, to be sure. There are plenty of nits to be picked (Finn could have been given a proper arc with very little additional effort, Poe could have had some kind of scene in the middle of the film) but simply having female and black leads in a Star Wars film more than makes up for it.

OTOH
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:49 AM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

One aspect I was paying attention to on my second viewing, after some of the complaints here, was the various X-wing/tie-fighter battles. There was one moment that reminded me of nothing in eps I-VI, in the attack on Maz Kanata's place after the X-wings have arrived. Finn is watching one X-wing in particular as it flies across the nearby lake; the shot tracks from left to right, following that X-wing off in the distance, which stays dead centre in the screen; and at the end we cut to Poe Dameron and conclude it's his (though Finn doesn't know it yet). Fantastic stuff.

I can't get over how much I love the new characters, Rey and Finn and Poe and Kylo Ren and BB-8 and just about all the others, with Snoke the only so-so addition. I rewatched I-III over recent months and there were precious few new characters in them that I actually cared about: Ewan McGregor's Obiwan at times, Padme at times, Palpatine in II and III, Anakin in III - kind of. George Lucas's complaints about VII suggest that he still doesn't get why I-III weren't as well received as IV-VI or indeed VII. Thank the Force he had such effective collaborators for the originals, and what a missed opportunity I-III were.
posted by rory at 8:15 AM on January 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

OTOH

I am completely baffled by how hard people are pushing this "BB8 is Elmo" nonsense. The major complaint against Elmo, historically, is that he's a character that is noticeably younger targeted than earlier Sesame Street characters, who has very little appeal to anyone over 3 years old, and who basically took over the show. BB8, meanwhile, is absolutely adored by every Star Wars nerd I know, from ages 5-75 (whether a long-time fan or a new convert). Her appeal is across all ages and all levels of fandom. She's also just one of a cast of great characters, and is not in danger of somehow becoming overexposed at this time.

Internet peoples: it's OK for people to like something. Seriously. It doesn't have to mean there's something obviously wrong with that thing, if you're just smart enough to look at it cynically.
posted by tocts at 8:58 AM on January 1, 2016 [16 favorites]

I can't get over how much I love the new characters, Rey and Finn and Poe and Kylo Ren and BB-8 and just about all the others, with Snoke the only so-so addition. I rewatched I-III over recent months and there were precious few new characters in them that I actually cared about: Ewan McGregor's Obiwan at times, Padme at times, Palpatine in II and III, Anakin in III - kind of.

This difference became quite apparent to me when I was giving a synopsis of the the story/movies to my only one movie Star Wars friends. I started with the original trilogy and was easily able to talk about the characters, their names, what they were like, the important parts about them as they related to the story as well as pretty detailed telling of plot in each movie. Then I got to the prequels and couldn't actually retell the plot of each prequel in detail. I couldn't even remember all of the characters names.

The summary was pretty much, empire /the bad guys were fighting the good guys, there was politics, something about trade wars and lots of Jedi still alive, there were some battles with stormtroopers and ships and robots but pretty much what you need to know is that there was a kid name Anikan who was awesome with the force, he was training as a Jedi with Obi Wan, shit happened and he went bad and ended up as Darth Vadar. And along the way he fell in love with a woman named Padme but it was dooomed when he went bad. She had twins and died. Those twins were Luke and Leia who were hidden from him and that's were the first OT jumps off of.

Compare that to my retelling of the New Hope. "Okay so we start off with a big scary ship overtaking a smaller ship and a woman, Princess Leia is talking to robot Artoo....

I've watched each prequel a couple of time each and the story and characters just do not stick. What's been super interesting to see that this new one stuck and not only just with me who is totally familiar with everything Star Wars but with my friend. I was over at her house last night and we talked about the story and characters and when this and that happened and she could recall it in detail. It stuck.
posted by Jalliah at 9:09 AM on January 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

Finn is watching one X-wing in particular as it flies across the nearby lake; the shot tracks from left to right, following that X-wing off in the distance

YES! And it turns out, the reason he (and everyone else) watches that X-wing track across the screen is because it is the BLACK X-WING. It stands out. I'd noticed that even the first time through viewing the movie and was like "huh, wonder why Poe's X-Wing is black?".

It's fantastic visual shorthand and just goddamned tight movie making IMO.
posted by lonefrontranger at 10:05 AM on January 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Also his callsign is "black one", rather than red/blue/gold. I thought that was pretty cool. They say it so quickly you can miss it if you're not paying attention.
posted by emptythought at 11:42 AM on January 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Alex Ross posted a great, thoughtful piece today about the new score material, and how the old and new music is used and intertwined, by John Williams.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:09 PM on January 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Saw Star Wars: The Fucking Article three days ago

I am glad I am not the only one who sees that acronym and immediately thinks "Read the article, Obi-Wan! It's our only hope!"
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:53 PM on January 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

That New Yorker article about the score is interesting. And I thought the opening was deft:

My favorite film of 1977 was not “Star Wars” but “Close Encounters of the Third Kind,” Steven Spielberg’s U.F.O fantasia. Notwithstanding the fact that I was nine years old, I considered “Star Wars” a little childish. Also, the trash-compactor scene scared me.

posted by Lexica at 1:27 PM on January 1, 2016

BB8, meanwhile, is absolutely adored by every Star Wars nerd I know

R2-Twee2

I'd probably like it more if it didn't purr.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:29 PM on January 1, 2016

We can either grumble about the fact that BB-8 was obviously designed with a mercenary, "toyetic" universal appeal, or we can be impressed because it actually succeeded in that goal without being annoying.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:10 PM on January 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's me, the last person in the world to see Episode VII. I'm still sorting out my reactions, mainly because I loved the cast, can't wait to see more of the adventures of Rey, Finn and Poe, but also desperately wish they had a better, more complete story to star in. The retreads of ANH plot points kept throwing me out of the story, and there was so little context for the conflict between the First Order, Resistance and Republic (probably by design given how violently people would react to even a whiff of "trade negotations") that I still can't figure out the significance of the Starkiller attack.

I do know the final cliffhanger sucked, though.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:34 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

You guys all know about QT-KT, right?
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

BTW, am I the only one who keeps forgetting Phasma's name? It keeps sliding out of my brain. Some of the incorrect replacements my brain comes up with include:

Schema (by far the most common)
Corpora
Phyla
Plasma
Phantasma
Asthma
Aphasia (not kidding)
Prisma
Charisma

Anyone is welcome to use these in fanfiction for Phasma's colleagues.
posted by town of cats at 3:57 PM on January 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

"Captain Phasma, report to Commander Schema immediately! Corporal Corpora will escort you. Notify Major Phyla when you're done."
posted by LooseFilter at 4:13 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wait - are you talking about Cpt. Famsa? Cpt. Pam Famsa?
posted by Golem XIV at 4:16 PM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Phasma's charisma's hot like plasma!
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:22 PM on January 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens Ending Details And More Revealed In Official Screenplay.
Spoilers and speculation, obviously.

But the reading of the Luke/Rey scene is exactly the reading I got from it after watching it 20-30 times trying to figure out the gravestone thing.
posted by Mezentian at 4:51 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

You guys all know about QT-KT, right?

I went in today intending to specifically look for QT-KT...and completely forgot to look for her. Argh.
posted by Atreides at 5:37 PM on January 1, 2016

Star Wars: The Force Awakens Ending Details And More Revealed In Official Screenplay.
Spoilers and speculation, obviously.

Super interesting, and it confirms that Rey was, indeed, dangerously tapping into Dark Side power in that saber fight with Ren, as was speculated upthread. But then she pulled back.

Is the whole screenplay available?
posted by torticat at 5:48 PM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

QT-KT isn't in TFA, just Rebels.

R2-KT is. (Screetshots, if anyone wants to go into their nth viewing blind).
posted by Mezentian at 5:55 PM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

QT-KT is R2-KT renamed to avoid confusion b/t the two R2 units in Clone Wars. KT shows up in TFA a few times, but I only caught her in the scene where Poe disembarks from his X-Wing (second screenshot in Mezentian's link)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:06 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who was that unfriendly red droid in Empire that C-3PO stumbled upon?
posted by ignignokt at 6:08 PM on January 1, 2016

So I bought the "prequel" book ($8.50 US), Before the Awakening, was interesting. As linked above, it details Finn's background and Poe's (son of an ace Rebel pilot and ground trooper) and tie in neatly to the movie.

But Rey's story seemed deliberately designed to tell a story about Rey without actually revealing anything. She found a flight simulator in the ruins of some ship, used teh hell out of it, that's how she got good at flying. The story practically conflicts with her story in TFA in the sense that she shouldn't be trusting anyone after how badly she was swindled by seeming friends.

Poe's story was pretty good, details why he was on Jakku talking to that Lars guy and lays out the politics of the larger situation i.e why there's a Republic and separate Reistance.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:22 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

R-3PO?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on January 1, 2016

Having seen the movie on the Friday that it opened, I am taking my three older kids tomorrow (Saturday) morning to the day's first showing.

The oldest says she "isn't a Star Wars person," but doesn't want to miss out on what is pretty much the biggest movie event of the year. Her younger brothers (in middle school) have seen my scratchy VHS tapes of the original trilogy, and DVDs of most of the prequels, and are pretty stoked.

I don't need them to go CRAZY to validate my own fondness for the series; I am simply hopeful that they will all enjoy it.

Also: 2-D, duh. And we will sneak in some candy, as God intended.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:06 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Aren't R2 and QT series astromech droids different? The next seems to imply they are.
(Also, was Meebur Gascon the lowest point of Clone Wars?)

Did C-3PO's red arm come from R-3PO. Why was it red?

How did young Ani Skywalker, who build C-3PO come up with that designation?

And how the hell do droid naming conventions work anyway?
posted by Mezentian at 7:08 PM on January 1, 2016

Speaking of Kylo Ren's lightsaber, there's a theory going around that the blades are unstable because the crystal is cracked or otherwise damaged, and he's using a damaged crystal because it's actually the crystal salvaged from Darth Vader's lightsaber.

I thought Vader's lightsaber went down the same shaft as the Emperor? I'm pretty sure it went over the side when Luke chopped Vader's hand off.

Vader's helmet made it off the Death Star, but I don't think his lightsaber did.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:15 PM on January 1, 2016

Aren't R2 and QT series astromech droids different?

No. See my above answer why R2-KT was renamed.

Did C-3PO's red arm come from R-3PO. Why was it red?

There's apparently a story there.

How did young Ani Skywalker, who build C-3PO come up with that designation?

It came with the instructions?

And how the hell do droid naming conventions work anyway?

Eh.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:23 PM on January 1, 2016

QT-KT was created as a stand-in for R2-KT, who did not appear in the arc because the Clone Wars crew wanted to avoid audience confusion with R2-D2

Seems to me like they are two different droids.

There's apparently a story there.

If it involves C3PO as a droid spymaster, I don't want to know.
posted by Mezentian at 8:07 PM on January 1, 2016

C3PO has been possessed by Anakin's force ghost.
posted by humanfont at 8:37 PM on January 1, 2016

I've seen this really late, and all I have to add is: Holy shit did Han Solo need a haircut. Jesus, Chewie, couldn't you at least rig up a flowbee?
posted by benzenedream at 11:01 PM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Nobody is going to complain about how normative a female pink droid is? Am I on the right MetaFilter?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:07 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Holy shit did Han Solo need a haircut. Jesus, Chewie, couldn't you at least rig up a flowbee?

"Oh, you think I need a haircut?"
posted by infinitewindow at 11:26 PM on January 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

Nobody is going to complain about how normative a female pink droid is? Am I on the right MetaFilter?

I think given Katie Actual's fave colour was pink, nah, we should let that slide.
posted by Mezentian at 11:37 PM on January 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

The Heartwarming Story Behind R2-KT, And How She Joined Star Wars Canon if it's not upthread. I am afraid to look.
posted by Mezentian at 11:39 PM on January 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Heartbreaking too, maybe not one to read at your desk, sniff.
posted by Iteki at 3:36 AM on January 2, 2016

How did young Ani Skywalker, who build C-3PO come up with that designation?

It was the serial number on the kit from 1-KEA.
posted by rory at 6:38 AM on January 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

I want a BB-8. Any astromech really, they seem to be handy little buggers, but BB-8 seems less cranky than Artoo.

It's rekindled my childhood desire for a droid too.

So I've been thinking about building one. I can build the mechanics and hardware, but I'd like a legitimate droid rather than a radio-controlled toy which means high-end AI. Light-weight artificial-stupidity I could handle, though heavy-duty AI isn't my forte. However... for a droid that recognizes you talking to it and understands fairly complex conversation and gives fairly clever (and sometimes amusing) responses, I suspect there may be a way to rope in Cortana or Siri or Google or other ways get my grubby paws on AI, however that and everything comes back to a bigger question:

What is the droid for?

What purpose can/should a droid fulfill in day to day life (other than vacuuming, if I wanted that I'd get a Roomba)?

If anyone has any ideas...? Right now I'm concluding that I don't have much of anything for a droid to do, which means it's sadly not worth building one. But maybe that's just a lack of imagination?
posted by anonymisc at 7:04 AM on January 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can think of a few rote jobs that I really don't like dealing with. Cleaning the cat box. Schlepping laundry to the laundry room (I don't mind sorting). Loading / unloading the dishwasher. Clearing and cleaning the counter tops. Cleaning the toilet. Mopping the floors.

There are enough shitty, repetitive, easy-to-replicate tasks in a house that get overlooked by my darling husband that I would be all over that if I had the skillset.
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:09 AM on January 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

oh shit I can think of another big one that would be perfect for a droid: Food prep. It's very same-ish, you just have to enter instructions. Dice 5 carrots into half inch dice. Chop this onion, etc. Mr lfr is USELESS at this stuff and has been disallowed from handling knives after the last urgent care adventure (don't ask). So yeah, I've a whole host of things for a droid, assuming they don't mind scut work that your average 8 year old can manage.
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:12 AM on January 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Those are actually phenomenally difficult tasks for robotics. It's many person-years of R&D. That's part of why it's hard to come up with anything - a lot of human-simple tasks aren't machine-simple (and vice versa) :-/

Heh though imagine - would we really want Artoo or C3PO cleaning out the litterbox? That sounds like comedy gold for a movie, but not so much fun if you're the one that has to clean up their "cleaning up" :)

"Oh my! The litterbox is quite clean... but the floor... not so much I'm afraid"
posted by anonymisc at 7:19 AM on January 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

well we have 2 of the litterboxes that you just roll over on the top, bang a couple of times, roll back, pull the tray out of, and dump into a Litter Locker that stands next to it. I (and my husband, who's a mechanical engineer) have joked that we could literally program a present-day industrial robot to do it. Mostly it's remembering to do it. I've taken to having Siri set geofenced reminders on my Apple Watch so that it reminds me when I get home.
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:26 AM on January 2, 2016

okay back on topic - while I'm at it - LooseFilter, I've been meaning to say something about the marvelous links you've been posting - I completely agree with you about the scoring. I think most people haven't noticed it more BECAUSE it is such a seamless evolution from the Ep. IV score. I love it. I even enjoyed that Maz' bar band is more reggae-influenced than jazz-influenced, but maybe 2 decades of living in Boulder is finally wearing me down on that regard :)
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:36 AM on January 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Glad you've enjoyed them! The most interesting thing to me about that music in Maz's palace, is that it was co-written by Abrams (who dabbles) and Lin-Manuel Miranda (who created Hamilton).

John Williams's cultural impact is so vast, as Alex Ross points out in that New Yorker piece, that it really is hard to articulate. What did strike me about the TFA score is how much it evokes his Indiana Jones music--all those open, perfect harmonies scored for exposed woodwinds, very Last Crusade especially.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:10 AM on January 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Star Wars: The Fucking Article

I like to pretend that it's Star Wars: Teach for America.

Piggybacking on the name symbolism discussion upthread -- I'm surprised I haven't seen anybody mention parallels with The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, which is partially the story of a dark-skinned person (Finn/Jim) trying to escape from enforced servitude (First Order/slavery). In both narratives, this character has to make an ironic journey back to the source of their servitude in order to overcome it: Jim heads south on the Mississippi; Finn heads back to the Starkiller. I'm admittedly ignoring how incredibly racially problematic Huck Finn in order to note the parallels here.

I have no idea how Poe Dameron might or might not reflect our pal Edgar Allen.
posted by HeroZero at 10:02 AM on January 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Just back from a second viewing with my older kids, and because the crowd had no emotional reactions (ya weirdos) I had the peace to reflect more on what I saw and heard. What I decided was this:

Fin is a buffalo soldier.

(Background INRE: buffalo soldiers, Wiki versus Bob Marley video [SLYT].)
posted by wenestvedt at 10:17 AM on January 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Did anyone else think there was anything racially problematic about the scene in which Poe names Finn, or was it just me?
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:05 AM on January 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Did anyone else think there was anything racially problematic about the scene in which Poe names Finn, or was it just me?

Nope.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:10 AM on January 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

Did anyone else think there was anything racially problematic about the scene in which Poe names Finn, or was it just me?

what? no! I thought Poe's refusal / rejection of memorizing a (dehumanizing!) string of numbers was affirming and touching. I mean hell apparently even the stormtroopers gave each other nicknames.

that said I am the epitome of Clueless White Person so don't mind me if I didn't grok to something off.
posted by lonefrontranger at 12:15 PM on January 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

"What's your name?"
"FN-2187"
"FN-what?"
"That's the only name they ever gave me."
"If that's the name they gave you, then I ain't using it. FN, huh? I'm calling you Finn. That all right with you?"
"Yeah. Finn. I like that."

(much later)
"Remember me?"
"FN-2187."
"Not anymore. The name's Finn. And I'm in charge. I'm in charge now, Phasma! I'm in charge!"
posted by effbot at 12:53 PM on January 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

@VeryLonelyLuke
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:23 PM on January 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't think Rey was witness to the Jedi school tragedy:
- if she was part of the School for Jedis she would be a default believer and already be familiar with the power of the Force in her. She is clearly surprised by the appearance of her powers.

Not if she was, like three years old when the massacre happened.

I love the theory upthread that Kylo Ren saved a youngling or two from the massacre and stashed them all over the galaxy.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:02 PM on January 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Did anyone else think there was anything racially problematic about the scene in which Poe names Finn, or was it just me?

I cringed. Naming a person is an act of dominance, of bestowing (or withdrawing) identity. I didn't like it that Poe took that on so casually.

Finn's original identity had already been taken from him, of course, AND he liked and embraced the name Poe suggested, AND that scene was very fraternal/light-hearted, so I guess it turned out okay.

There's that parallel scene in Game of Thrones that (for all that is hugely racially problematic in that show) was handled better, I think. When Danaerys discovers that all the Unsullied had been robbed of their identities as children, she tells Grey Worm that all of them should be given the choice whether to keep their slave names or to choose new ones. GW chooses to keep his name because of what it means to him--a symbol to him both of his enslavement and his liberation.

Probably more perceptive critics could identify problems in that scene too (I'm personally another clueless white person.) ...and I can't believe I'm using anything related to Danaerys and the Unsullied as an example of racially-themed storytelling done right! But I did like that Grey Worm was given that autonomy over his new identity.

But yeah, Faint of Butt, all that to say, it wasn't just you!
posted by torticat at 4:41 PM on January 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I had the same cringe.

I can imagine they intended it as: Poe is like a friendly big brother or cool kid, inviting outsider Finn into his gang of scrappy pals, and giving him a cool in-the-gang nickname is a way of showing how Poe immediately accepts him and how little warmth/belonging Finn has had in his stormtrooper life. But even so, I agree it's something they should have thought better of, exactly how it would play out. It wouldn't take a big change, to make it play without the cringe.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:50 PM on January 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I feel like we already had the "PSA: Oscar Isaac is Latin@ and so is Poe Dameron" talk upthread but imo it's worth repeating. It definitely made a very big difference to me that the character to offer Finn his first given name was a brown guy who is canonically from Planet Tikal, whose actor is played by a Guatemalan/Cuban guy whose parents' countries of origin are pretty well-acquainted with imperialism. Very, very different meta vibe than if, say, Rey had been the one to name him Finn, you know?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:52 PM on January 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

Never mind that Oscar Isaac is Guatemalan American and John Boyega is British and the child of Nigerian parents.

Never mind the shit people have already complained about Boyega being black and lead in Star Wars.

Never mind that they're both good actors, playing characters in a space opera that doesn't seem to have racial politics, people are still insist on seeing Boyega in single light.

It definitely made a very big difference to me that the character to offer Finn his first given name was a brown guy who is canonically from Planet Tikal

Poe was born on Yavin-4, where his parents settled six months after the Battle of Endor. His mom was a decorated A-Wing pilot, who managed to keep an A-Wing after the war and she'd take Poe up on flights. His dad was group soldier.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:12 PM on January 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Whether or not the Galaxy Far, Far Away has the same kind racial politics we do, the galaxy we're all watching this movie in does. So I think that "Hey, was that actually kind of uncool?" is an entirely legitimate question to ask.

As for how I feel about it, I got the sense that Poe was entirely ready to go with whatever Finn wanted and just threw out the first thing that came to mind. If "I'm not going to call you that" was applied to a name like, to pick a name out of a hat, "Ta-Nehisi", it'd be different. But, since the name Poe refuses to use is a depersonalised designation foisted on Finn by the folks who kidnapped him, I think it plays all right.

(Spoken as a non-black man with a super white name, so YMMV.)
posted by tobascodagama at 6:49 PM on January 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not to derail, but speaking of Poe, was I the only person who got a serious "young Bruce Campbell" vibe from him? (I mean that in the best of ways).
posted by tocts at 6:54 PM on January 2, 2016

I'm calling Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Snoke right now.
posted by mazola at 6:57 PM on January 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

tocts, I was thinking that myself today. I would LOVE to see Oscar Isaac stooge it up with Deadites, even if just for like an MTV Movie Awards parody.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:07 PM on January 2, 2016

Finally back from my vacation in the hinterlands, where there is no internet and cell service is iffy at best.

I did get to see the movie, however (and yes, in that town I had good cell service, but my phone choked on this thread).

Fun, fun film - really enjoyed it, and my boys were on the edge of their seats pretty much throughout (the second act dragged a little, for me and them). But, overall, it captured everything I was hoping for - action, a sense of adventure, fun, etc. My wife and I both said it was a film we want to see again, and it has been a long time that I've said that about any movie, not just anything Star Wars. Great cast, loved Boyega and Ridley, fun to see Han (but my goodness, does and Leia and Chewie again. Also really liked Poe in the opening 15 minutes or so, and then he disappeared and never really regained much presence from my perspective. I also like Driver as Ren, especially how he seems much less confident and certain of himself when the mask is off.

Problems: well, it was pretty much a replay of the highlights of the OT, mixed up and thrown together differently. I'm okay with that in general (I think it was there way of letting everyone know that the new folks have this and know what they are in charge of), but the even bigger Death Star was tired. And the mechanics of it bug me: If the thing sucks up an entire sun, why does it have to bother with destroying the planets? It has pretty much destroyed the system by sucking up the sun, hasn't it? Also really disappointed by the lack of meaningful stuff for Captain Phasma to do, and hoping that changes for Ep VIII.

Anyways, with the New Republic pretty much in tatters, and the Order losing their major base, and the Resistance suffering heavy losses, it looks to me like the fight might move to a smaller set of guerrilla actions with each side unable to commit heavily for fear of losing too much. Really hoping that Ren's decision to kill his father is a signal that he has fully committed to the Dark Side, and there is no shot at redemption - this will truly be a struggle between the Dark and the Light, Luke & Rey vs. Snoke & Ren, leading to what? A new Jedi Order, based on some different principles and ideals?

Those are my tattered thoughts a few days after my first viewing, and it looks like I have a small novel here to go through to see what I missed, what others think, and so forth.
posted by nubs at 7:45 PM on January 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

And the mechanics of it bug me: If the thing sucks up an entire sun, why does it have to bother with destroying the planets?

This is something that I feel like they needed to explain better, except that doing so would have both slowed down the film's pace unacceptably and damaged the audience's suspension of disbelief by calling attention to how ridiculous the whole idea is to begin with.

Anyway, the Death Star 3S isn't actually within the same star system as its targets. Its turbolaser beam is accelerated to hyperlight speeds, allowing it to fire from a different star system entirely while still having an instantaneous effect. (Upthread, this is used to explain why the folks on Maz' planet can see the beams.)
posted by tobascodagama at 8:01 PM on January 2, 2016

Finally saw it this morning in IMAX (the 70mm print). Instant thought afterwards: time to go read the spoiler threads, and the thread did not disappoint.

I will admit, not certain the 70mm print did much for me. The only time it was used was in the Millennium Falcon escape from Jakku, and... well, there was enough going on that I'm not sure I really noticed the extra footprint. That being said, the inherently larger IMAX screen definitely made it a great experience.

As for the film itself, it wasn't perfect. (R2's sudden map discovery felt a little forced). In the end, though, it was worth it to see a great Star Wars film in the theaters.
posted by RyanAdams at 8:29 PM on January 2, 2016

I so want to hear Carrie and Harrison do the bad son back story conversation flashback:

Han: Honey I was down at the cantina...
Leia: Who did you shoot this time?
Han: No, it's, well, it's Ben
Leia: He shot Greedos son?
Han: No, well, maybe, but this is serious, he's gone to the dark side
Leia: I always told you he needed discipline
Han: Well he didn't get any middocondrians from my side of the family
Leia: Luke got all the good middocondrians, how was I to know bad-middo's were recessive? We didn't have a test for bad middocondirians back then. And you could have used that protection force Yoda showed you.
Han: aww Leia
posted by sammyo at 10:02 PM on January 2, 2016

Woo! Finally made it to the bottom of the thread!

When Poe showed up again I kinda wondered if maybe he was a (series of) clones. "The Poe Damerons are the best pilots we have." Pretty clearly that's not what happened and this is the same guy, but it would have been funny (and needlessly confusing, probably).

I'm all in favor of the theory that Snoke is actually tiny. Specifically, I think he's the sort of stunted homunculus you actually get when a Sith tries to create life through the Force, not Anakin Skywalkers. (My preferred theory of Anakin's birth is the one I originally jumped to while watching Phantom Menace: there was a guy who did the biological minimum to be Anakin's father, but that's all he did so fuck him. Which upon further review didn't actually work, but I'll just claim certain point of view until overwhelming evidence forces me to do otherwise.)

Everyone is pretty blasé about the Starkiller base. Could be that part of the plot was tacked on, OR it could be that they've been swatting down some Imperial wunderwaffe every other week for the past 30 years and they're just getting tired of it. "Eh, there's probably a weak point. We'll just fly some x-wings inside it and blow that up then hoot and holler on our way home."

The rehashing of the plot wasn't really a bad thing, but it did make me think of all of those direct-to-video sequels that Disney did back in the 90s where it'd basically be the same thing that happened in the original movie, except with the kids of the main characters.
posted by ckape at 12:56 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also, to my eye Daisy Ridley resembles Keira Knightley more than Natalie Portman, so clearly, "Luke, I am your mother's former handmaiden/decoy's granddaughter!"
posted by ckape at 1:07 AM on January 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

When Poe showed up again I kinda wondered if maybe he was a (series of) clones."The Poe Damerons are the best pilots we have."

Star Wars does NOT need ghola... although, with Maz's words about eyes...
posted by Mezentian at 2:28 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

%n: "I'm calling it: Snope is actually bigger in real life, like planet+ sized and is the main weapon in the third film of the series."

And he's played by Morrissey, and after he swallows a star the sun shines out of his behind.
posted by chavenet at 3:27 AM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

A young Ben Solo curled up into bed for the night with his plush ewok. "Mom, can you tell me another story about Gampy?"
posted by drezdn at 5:31 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

When Poe showed up again I kinda wondered if maybe he was a (series of) clones. "The Poe Damerons are the best pilots we have."

brb, re-writing Poe/Finn slashfic as Poe/Poe/Poe/Finn/Poe
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:14 AM on January 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

And the mechanics of it bug me: If the thing sucks up an entire sun, why does it have to bother with destroying the planets?

Never mind that if it sucks up an entire sun, then it can only be used once. Which would then severely damage StarKiller base itself, which is a planet with oxygen and some native life. Losing the star that makes all that possible is just poor design.

Which is why I like to pretend that the movie was all about finding Luke and StarKiller base was just some sort of important base the Rebellion/Resistance/Republic/Whatever destroyed. Because Death Star 3.0 just reads as terribly lazy ripoff. I do wonder if Disney forced Abrams to include that bit, similar to how Joss Wheadon was forced to include Thor's visions in Avengers Ultron. Both are clunky and actually drag down the plot. The only difference is that Wheadon was vocal about Marvel insisted on including and the threats about it, while Abrams hasn't said a word about such things, though you know it must have occurred.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:27 AM on January 3, 2016

Star Wars: The Force Awakens still has a long way to go to beat A New Hope at the box-office (Talking adjusted for inflation figures)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:11 AM on January 3, 2016

Never mind that if it sucks up an entire sun, then it can only be used once.

Except it charges twice in the movie, so.....maybe it only uses half a sun's worth of energy every time? Or they moved the planet to a new star system offscreen and without mentioning it?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:22 AM on January 3, 2016

Sneaky offscreen hyperspace jumps like the Deathstar would seem the most likely explanation, except isn't Finn able to provide its coordinates with sufficient accuracy that the rebels can hyperspace jump to its surface? Which would mean it doesn't move?

(Also, boy does Abrams love that jump-directly-to-the-planet trick, something that seems to render spaceships slightly unnecessary in spaceship movies. )
posted by Artw at 7:31 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Except it charges twice in the movie...

Yeah, this is why I pretend the Starkiller base plotline just didn't happen.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:41 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Binary star system.
posted by kmz at 8:40 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Star Wars does have a lot of those.

FOR NOW.
posted by Artw at 8:42 AM on January 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

What a fantastic and fun thread! So many great comments above, that I don't feel I have too much to add here. But I do want to stick up for my homegirl Rey, and her characterization/portrayal in the movie.

So after my third viewing (this time in IMAX 3D! For science!), I am more convinced than ever that complaints about Rey being "too good too soon" or being some sort of "Mary Sue" or not being flawed enough are unjustified. Here's why:
1) Rey is frequently scared shitless. Not only when taking on tasks that are new for her (I.e. flying the Falcon for the first time), or experiencing new emotions (after her Force vision, which scares her enough that she literally RUNS AWAY), but also (and consistently) when encountering someone who she knows is (much) more powerful than her: Kylo Ren scares the bejesus out of Rey, and until she taps into the (dark side?) of her anger, she always chooses to RUN THE FUCK AWAY from him until circumstances force her to face him. Fear is very real and very prominent for Rey, and Daisy Ridley acts the shit out of making that fear visceral. Next time you see it, pay attention to the absolute terror that Ren causes her, especially the second time they meet, after (both despite and because) she's seen inside his mind. While Rey ultimately (when forced to) confronts her fears, that bravery is not her instinctual response: when she gets scared, she runs the fuck away. This is one of the most human (and my favorite) parts about this character.
2) Rey is dangerously trusting of anyone who tells her what she wants to hear. Rey's immediate devouring of the whole "The Force. The Jedi. It's all true" speech from Han is just one example of this, and while in that particular case it does not get Rey in trouble, her lack of incredulity around matters pertaining to the mythos we know as the OT is (I predict) going to be a huge gaping weak spot in her armour in the stories to come. Rey wants SO BADLY to be a part of that mythology that she completely discards her defenses and is basically at the mercy of anyone claiming to be in any way connected to the Resistence or the old Rebel Alliance (c.f. her immediate acceptance of Finn, the "Resistance" guy). While so far she has only encountered benign examples, it seems to me to be a VERY exploitable flaw for anyone trying to get close to her. Like many who hold their dreams so tightly that they become nearly indistinguishable from reality, Rey is so desperate for her mythology to be true that in the face of this idealistic vision that she so badly wants to belong to, she cannot manage to uphold the finely honed defense and survival mechanisms that she has developed over her lifetime. What will happen when she discovers how flawed and broken her heroes (I.e. bearded, sad, broken Luke) actually are?

Perhaps the reason these don't read as "flaws" to many viewers are because they are so integral to who we meet in Rey, and they have yet to cause her any serious harm. But it's only Act 1. I don't think our beloved girl gets out of this trilogy without seriously coming to grips with her fatal flaws of clinging desperately to myths and fairy stories that she's built in her head to keep her company for all those years, and then running the fuck away (and longing for the security of obscurity on Jakku) when those myths begin to show the cracks of reality (the Dark Side of the Force in Kylo Ren, friends that lie about their identity in Finn, heroes that age and fail just like the rest of us in Han Solo).

Rey's disillusionment is going to be big, and possibly catastrophic, and I think this film set up that future arc BEAUTIFULLY, precisely because these (potentially fatal) flaws seem so innocuous at first.
posted by Dorinda at 8:51 AM on January 3, 2016 [26 favorites]

With regards to the eating the star thing, somewhere I read a very clever handwave: It charges by taking up the most of the energy output of the star, but at hyperspace speeds. Whatever excess output that isn't used still comes along as visible light, but that too gets pulled along at hyperspace speeds, which is why the light from the star goes out as soon as they're done charging. So when they're done pulling in the energy, any new energy output that the star puts out will only be going at lightspeed, and will take some time before it can reach the planet. The idea that it is only taking up energy output, and not the star itself, is also supported by the graphic they show in the control room when it starts charging: the star is much bigger than the planet, but at the end when the planet blows up, the star that replaces it is roughly the same size.

Also, on my second rewatch, I tried to pay attention to pronouns used for BB-8. Both Unkar Plutt the junk dealer, as well as Poe Dameron himself (who is presumably BB-8's person), use "he". Makes me sad that they're both wrong about that.
posted by radwolf76 at 9:02 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Saw it again last night, and noted especially a few things:

1) Lor San Tekka (the Max von Sydow character) has a TON of dialogue with Kylo Ren about family - it permeates every inch of their encounter, much more than the nominal search for the map. It is clear these two knew each other well.
2) I hate how clunky it is that Han and Leia constantly speak about "our son." I get that they're holding the word Ben as some kind of big reveal, but it makes their conversations more wooden. Just call him Ben, fer chrissakes.
3) My kid is hanging his theory on the fact that Kylo has an American accent and Rey has a British accent, so clearly that means Rey will end up as a bad guy and Kylo a good guy. I tried to point out to him that Vader speaks American ("ultimately a good guy" he says) and Obi Wan is British, but to no avail.
posted by anastasiav at 9:26 AM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens still has a long way to go to beat A New Hope at the box-office (Talking adjusted for inflation figures)

The referenced article isn't wrong, but it does sorta elide some real differences in how film distribution works nowadays.

In the '70s, it was not uncommon for a film to stay in theaters for months, whereas the average today is about 3-4 weeks (and then off to home video). Consequently, I think any inflation adjusted but box-office only comparison is going to always favor older movies. Star Wars ran for a full year in some theaters in its original theatrical run, and was even re-released in 1981, which is practically unheard of today. The Force Awakens, as successful as it is, probably won't be in first run theaters longer than 3-4 months.
posted by tocts at 9:30 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Starkiller base stuff seeming tacked on did make me think of the Super 8 edit of A New Hope, which is basically the opposite: To get the runtime down, it cuts out the Death Star and makes the whole film about rescuing a princess from an Imperial installation.
posted by ckape at 9:36 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm pretty sure that was the original plan for Star Wars, actually. Lucas only pulled the Death Star into the original movie because he didn't know if he'd ever be allowed to do the sequels he wanted (it was originally the end of the trilogy battle, intended for what would become RotJ). Later, after the original was a big success and he had funding for the sequels, he ended up deciding to go with it in RotJ anyways, even though he'd done it once already.
posted by tocts at 9:44 AM on January 3, 2016

Rey is so desperate for her mythology to be true that in the face of this idealistic vision that she so badly wants to belong to, she cannot manage to uphold the finely honed defense and survival mechanisms that she has developed over her lifetime...Rey's disillusionment is going to be big, and possibly catastrophic, and I think this film set up that future arc BEAUTIFULLY, precisely because these (potentially fatal) flaws seem so innocuous at first.

I like this idea; Rey is such a wonderful embodiment for the audience because of all these traits in TFA - she has the wonder and awe we all had/have at these stories and she desperately wants to be a part of it, just like we all do/did. The next film, then, can be about her realization of the costs and consequences of her abilities - she is a natural user of the Force, strong, and it comes easy, and she and Luke will clash as her tries to temper her headstrong tendencies that have developed precisely because everything has come fairly easily so far.

And I can see an interesting arc - she idolizes Luke, and learns of Ren's background and what he did - killing Luke's pupils, destroying the New Jedi Order, and possibly killing Luke's wife(if that is a gravestone where Luke is???) and sets off for revenge - the wrong motive to start from. (Particularly if they make her Luke's daughter, which would mean Ren killed her mother, if my theory is correct).

When it comes to the Jedi, the films have always been about the temptation of power and how seductive it can be to use the ability with the Force for one's own ends. Rey's seeming inherent strength with it, along with this credulity, makes her dangerous. And like Luke in the OT, she isn't going to really understand the dangers until she gets in over her head. Some of the same story beats, but you can use those ideas in so many different ways at this point, I'm not worried that they will just beat the same plot as the OT into the ground.

Anyways, on a different note - now that we are back home, the boys broke out the DVDs and started watching some of the prequels/OT again. When we saw TFA, I leaned over during the crawl to read the words to him, because while he is learning to read, the opening crawl is not exactly at a grade 1 level (got a little misty doing it, because I'm sure I remember somebody doing the same for me when I saw ANH at age 6). Anyways, as each movie starts now he is demanding that someone tell him the title and read the words. Fascinating to see it click for him, that the opening crawl has important information.
posted by nubs at 9:44 AM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

It charges by taking up the most of the energy output of the star, but at hyperspace speeds. Whatever excess output that isn't used still comes along as visible light, but that too gets pulled along at hyperspace speeds, which is why the light from the star goes out as soon as they're done charging. So when they're done pulling in the energy, any new energy output that the star puts out will only be going at lightspeed, and will take some time before it can reach the planet. The idea that it is only taking up energy output, and not the star itself, is also supported by the graphic they show in the control room when it starts charging: the star is much bigger than the planet, but at the end when the planet blows up, the star that replaces it is roughly the same size.

So it is really a thinly veiled metaphor for the dangers of solar energy, then.
posted by nubs at 10:30 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Someone on twitter has complained that there's four dots at the end of the crawl not the normal three for an ellipsis giving a terrible start to the film... and yeah, this movie is dead to me now.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:32 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Someone on twitter has complained that there's four dots at the end of the crawl not the normal three for an ellipsis giving a terrible start to the film... and yeah, this movie is dead to me now.

No, the question is: what does the fourth dot mean? Is it proof that Disney is ruled by the Dark Side? Does it foreshadow something? Maybe it means someone is missing a period elsewhere in the film, and is pregnant (BB-8)?

Or is it just the fact that some style guides suggest using a 4-dot ellipsis when the omitted material includes a full sentence, so you show that a sentence was removed. In which case, what is the missing sentence?
posted by nubs at 10:56 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I watched the original Star Wars: A New Hope in the un-messed-around-with version the other day and noticed the fourth dot in the ellipsis there too.

Seems strangely poignant watching it knowing the eventual fate of you-know-who.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:00 AM on January 3, 2016

All the crawls have four dots, with the exception of ROTJ.

Also, Kylo Ren is Rey's mother, isn't that clear to everyone by now? The lack of a uterus is insignificant next to the power of the force.
posted by Behemoth at 11:04 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just saw TFA a second time yesterday and realized that I love Starkiller Base; not because it makes perfect sense in terms of the plot, but because it is a wonderful visual metaphor of the relationship between the light and dark sides of the force. More specifically, the rise and fall (fall and rise?) of Anakin/Vader, whom Kylo Ren is desperately trying to emulate.

Darth Vader started out as star-pupil Anakin Skywalker. He is, over the course of two movies, slowly pulled into the dark side. Then, decades later, he is redeemed by one sudden, explosive, act of contrition. Starkiller Base slowly pulls into itself a star, and when it is destroyed, the star that was absorbed/corrupted emerges renewed in it previous vibrant glory.

In TFA, they could have just had a generic explosion when the base was destroyed, but they chose to have the star reborn instead. It is a beautiful visual shorthand of the end of Anakin's life, and I suspect it is also foreshadowing either Kylo Ren's or Rey's narrative arcs in the upcoming movies. At some point Rey will be tasked with facing Kylo Ren to hopefully redeem him as Luke eventually redeemed Anakin.
posted by Groundhog Week at 11:05 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ok, I finally saw it. Before my thoughts here's some background. Taken individually the six previous movies aren't that good. Taken as a whole Lucas created a really cool and interesting universe. The prequels are just as good/bad as the originals. But you can't take some and leave the rest: they all together create the entire universe. You should embrace them all or reject them all. Here they are in order from best to worst:

Tied best: Empire Strikes Back, Revenge of the Sith

Tied 3rd: A New Hope, Attack of the Clones

Tied worst: Return of the Jedi, Phantom Menace

Episode 7: The worst yet.

Just like with Star Trek, JJ Abrams has completely destroyed this franchise. C'mon, take out the shield generator in order to destroy the Death Star again again?

And why is everyone in the galaxy a fucking expert at fighting with a light sabre and able to defeat/hold their own against a Sith Master?

But the biggest problem is that it lacks the visual magic of Lucas. Look, Lucas's dialogue is terrible. His direction is poor (thus the stilted performances). His stories are hackneyed and obvious. But his visuals and sense of a grand experience is par none. Whether it was the old, tired, and beat down universe of the OT or the clean, advanced, almost utopic universe of the Prequels, he created expansive universes that felt complete and full and lived-in. JJ Abrams's universe just felt there. Very much a pedestrian effort.

The good. Not nearly as much silly cheesiness. Yes, R2D2 and C3PIO were there (the original cheese from A New Hope) but that was it. I liked Finn a lot. Rey pretty well. The new Darth Vader? An interesting take but I'm not sure if whiny brat really fits a Sith Lord.

Everything else bad.

No, that's not fair. JJ Abrams knows how to make big bland action sci-fi films full of splash and no substance and he showed it here.
posted by bfootdav at 11:11 AM on January 3, 2016

This visual metaphor of Starkiller Base as shorthand for Vader also parallels with Kylo Ren's acquiescing to the dark side (killing Han) as the light of the sun fades. The light has been fully corrupted. Can Ben Solo (Ben Organa, Ben Solo-Organa, Ben Organa-Solo?) be reborn?
posted by Groundhog Week at 11:12 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also -- and now for the serious criticism -- according to the Prophecy Annakin was supposed to bring balance to the force. When he killed himself and the emperor leaving only one Jedi left (Luke), this felt balance. As in Luke was the embodiment not of the Light side or the Dark side but of the Force sans Light or Dark.

That was a cool idea. And the idea of this brought me a little respect for Georgie's story-telling ideas.

But where is that in the new film? Gone. We're back to Light vs Dark and the entire six movie story leading up to a BALANCE of the Force is completely ignored.

God I hate JJ Abrams.
posted by bfootdav at 11:18 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

The good. Not ne-- local audio_freq,midi_pitch_tuned_to,ratio_list,ratio_table,pretty_system = temperament2table(temperament_name,key,system,Instrument_name,algorithm_name,calculate,abbreviate)
arly as much silly cheesiness.

You're a droid, aren't you.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:19 AM on January 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

Can Ben Solo (Ben Organa, Ben Solo-Organa, Ben Organa-Solo?) be reborn?

I now want them to choose his full name based on which one gives the least unfortunate initials. The first two are right out. I'm slightly inclined to the last, probably because I had a bit of a Fallout 4 marathon over Christmas.
posted by SometimeNextMonth at 11:23 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

You're a droid, aren't you.

I am not the droid you are looking for.
posted by bfootdav at 11:24 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

The prequels are just as good/bad as the originals. But you can't take some and leave the rest

I've been ignoring the prequels Just fine, thanks. I'm perfectly happy to watch the OT (Despecialized, thanks) and continue with TFA. I was glad that it contained no references to the prequels at all. Makes it easier to keep ignoring them.

As for the rest of your post, it's all been discussed upthread. Every complaint and point. I'll give you a heads up, though: Kylo Ren isn't a Sith Lord, and his training isn't complete, as is stated by Snoke in the movie. He's also wounded going into the lightsaber fight, and Finn gets a poke in before he's beaten, so Rey is fighting a Dark Side trainee who has two wounds.

Read the thread, there's been some excellent discussion.
posted by Fleebnork at 12:08 PM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Read the thread, there's been some excellent discussion.

I figured as much, but 1800+ comments? I've only one lifetime ...

and his training isn't complete, as is stated by Snoke in the movie.

I hate to belabor a point that's probably already been dealt with above, but I had assumed that when he killed his father that this was the completion of his training that Snoke was referring to which means all the rest of his training was basically done (unless I'm misremembering the order of those events).

Also, one cool thing that I think I'm going to be disappointed about is that when they first showed Snoke as a 100 foot tall giant I was really excited! Now the final showdown between a giant and whatever Jedi is left at the end was going to be epic! Unfortunately it was just a holograph so Snoke probably is just normal-sized.
posted by bfootdav at 12:19 PM on January 3, 2016

Nah, Snoke said when the base was crumbling that he wanted Kylo/Ben returned to him for further training. Killing his father was about cementing his dedication to the Dark Side, but it didn't make him a dark lord of anything.

Ditto on wishing the Supreme Leader was actually Godzilla-sized.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:23 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, to my eye Daisy Ridley resembles Keira Knightley more than Natalie Portman, so clearly, "Luke, I am your mother's former handmaiden/decoy's granddaughter!"

Ah.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:29 PM on January 3, 2016

George Lucas has said that by balance in the force he doesn't mean Light vs Dark and he's not sure where we all got that idea from.

Everyone else responded by muttering under their breaths that he should have actually set up any possible other way for the force to be unbalanced if that's what he meant.
posted by ckape at 12:57 PM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

The prequels are just as good/bad as the originals. But you can't take some and leave the rest [...] Here they are in order from best to worst:

THANK GOODNESS someone is finally telling me what opinions to have! I was floundering around there for a while in a sea of gray, not knowing how to properly enjoy anything, or even what I'm supposed to enjoy. Your help has been invaluable.

I figured as much, but 1800+ comments? I've only one lifetime ...

I know, it's much easier to just push the work of you joining this conversation off onto the rest of us.

I just rolled my eyes so hard that I've sprained something in my face.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:01 PM on January 3, 2016 [20 favorites]

George Lucas has said that by balance in the force he doesn't mean Light vs Dark and he's not sure where we all got that idea from.

I like to imagine it's like a car's front end alignment and the Jedi and Sith are fighting over who gets to be the mechanic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:02 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I know, it's much easier to just push the work of you joining this conversation off onto the rest of us.

Ok, sorry for the bother.
posted by bfootdav at 2:18 PM on January 3, 2016

George Lucas has said that by balance in the force he doesn't mean Light vs Dark and he's not sure where we all got that idea from.

The Sith and Jedi are just a sideshow to the real struggle in the Force: Interest vs Banality.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:20 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also Butch vs Femme

Possibly Plaid vs Stripes

Here vs Now

Hot vs Cool

Grimdark vs Happy-go-lucky
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:22 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Selfie - the kiddo gives it 10 out of 10 for Star awareness.

I liked it a lot second time around as well, even if Starkiller base is still stupid.
posted by Artw at 2:25 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

George Lucas has said that by balance in the force he doesn't mean Light vs Dark and he's not sure where we all got that idea from.

George Lucas doesn't know what the fuck he meant. See: Adding scream to Luke's plunge in ESB:SE v1.0 and removing it in v2.0.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:26 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I finally saw it. Nothing much to say that hasn't been said before. Rey/Ridley, Finn/Boyega and Ren/Driver are the best thing that could happen to Star Wars: fresh characters, great actors. I felt like I was in 1976 again, not a bad thing.
Still, I'm a little bit concerned by the retro feel (see the Reverse Shot review). Something I really enjoyed in the prequels (I guess I'm the only one) was the both the scale (we got to see the Republic at work, Coruscant, the Jedi Council, lots of new planets etc.) and the ambition of the story (we rooted for preschool Hitler, and then we saw teenage Hitler turn into the real bad Hitler). Jar-Jar warts and all, it felt like actual Sci-Fi, like Chris Foss paintings brought to life. I love the OT too, of course, but it often felt like a sitcom/soap opera with a limited number of sets and players. It's too early to judge the new trilogy, but I hope that it will break out of the OT mold and give us a better sense of scale and time.
posted by elgilito at 2:50 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's way more important that a 6-year-old like this movie than that I like it.

I think this notion explains why I've been sifting through, & treasuring, so many of the comments here. I came up through childhood loving the original trilogy, & it was MAGIC for me; that magic stuck with me into deep adolescence with X-Wing, TIE Fighter, Dark Forces, etc. I designed new starfighters & capital ships, for Pete's sake. I still have it now, although in altered form.

But what's pulling me through all of the 1800+ (?) comments about this new fine film are those anecdotes about the 6-year-olds who are getting all "OMG!" & "Did you see THAT?!" That magic re-awakens (yep) for me when I hear those stories. I don't have kids, yet, but hope to, in part because I want to see that hope & joy in my own one-day son(s), & *especially* in my own one-day daughter(s). So thank you, everyone who's shared their stories here.
posted by foodbedgospel at 3:11 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Watched it again (fifth time now), first time in D-Box. First time seeing anything in D-Box actually, which is very silly but fun. Sort of distracting so definitely not ideal for the first time seeing anything.

Also, anybody that ranks any of the prequels with the OT is not somebody to be trusted.
posted by kmz at 3:18 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

And why is everyone in the galaxy a fucking expert at fighting with a light sabre and able to defeat/hold their own against a Sith Master?

They're not though? Finn gets his arse handed to him both time he tries to use it. First time he's knocked to the ground and is saved by Han, second time he gets grievously wounded and is saved by Rey, who can use a lightsabre against a Sith apprentice because The Force Is Strong In This One or something. Kylo is pretty obviously a teenage apprentice. Master? Please.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:54 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Speaking of which, I think Kylo as a bad imitation of Vader is the movie's biggest success in remixing ANH. Having the character explicitly define himself in relation to his OT counterpart, instead of just happening to go through the same trials because of author fiat, works very well. Plus they did a great job setting him up with an introductory scene that was for all practical purposes the same as Vader's, and then totally subverting the You Have Failed Me For The Last Time moment in the Star Destroyer.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:59 PM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Has anyone taken an actual six year old to this? I'd dearly love to take Miss6 to see this, but am concerned it's just a touch on the scary side..
posted by coriolisdave at 5:02 PM on January 3, 2016

My son is six and I took him to it. But he has watched the Clone Wars cartoon series which can be pretty violent and it isn't much, if any, more violent/scary than that. He, sadly wasn't blown away, but Star Wars is pretty familiar territory for him. When Starkiller Base was unveiled he did say "Seriously another Death Star" which was amusing.
posted by pseudodionysus at 5:08 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Favorite quote from the 5-ish year old sitting behind me, from when Finn and Poe escape in the TIE Fighter and land on Jakku:

"They always crash land."
posted by HeroZero at 5:28 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Has anyone taken an actual six year old to this?

Yes; my youngest is six. He loved it. Still talking about it and the "new Vader".
posted by nubs at 7:17 PM on January 3, 2016

First time he's knocked to the ground and is saved by Han, second time he gets grievously wounded and is saved by Rey, who can use a lightsabre against a Sith apprentice because The Force Is Strong In This One or something. Kylo is pretty obviously a teenage apprentice. Master? Please.

Yeah, Ren is still in training. And he's been shot by Chewie's bowcaster, which Han fires a few times to show the audience that the thing packs a hell of a punch. He comes close to killing Finn, and then Rey is able to get the better of him, but I write that that off to: (a) Rey is naturally stronger in the Force; (b) Ren is injured both physically and emotionally; (c) Rey riding a pretty big wave of anger.
posted by nubs at 7:23 PM on January 3, 2016

Finally saw it, loved it, my inner 10-year-old who saw the first one way back when loved it. Now I will read the thread!
posted by rtha at 7:41 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I am someone who has been programmed to dislike Star Wars over the course of my whole life.

As a kid, I was not exposed to the films in a direct way. I recall learning about the characters because the action figures were in E.T. (boffo, Lucas...) and somehow absorbed that it was "boys' stuff." I was hardcore into Indiana Jones, but never Star Wars.

When I went to college for film studies, crazy about Kubrick, I learned that, from a film industry historical perspective, TOS changed the game by making films the entrypoints to high-margin merchandise money, and creating a demand for family blockbusters that edged out more cerebral fare.

As I developed my specialties in media studies, I got really into lowish tech, thinky SF from the 1970s, or maybe more specifically, 1967-1977. (Around this time reaizing that "it's boys' stuff was a FUCKING LIE I was told) And so I grew to resent TOS even more for overshadowing and squashing, somewhat, the potential for more films like A Boy and His Dog, or Zardoz, to get made. I know, this makes me a total loon, but I like the really heady, dark SF, and I resent space opera for occupying the same genre.

After that, I went through an MA and am finishing a PhD in more Media Studies, in the belly of the beast, USC's School of Cinematic Arts. I mean, you should see this place. It was expanded and rebuilt back in my MA, because of Lucas' financial gift of many millions, and it's enormous, opulent, postmodern architecture. I mean, it's awesome to have adequate office space and a reasonable-ish stipend as a grad student, but the flip side is, when we're teaching freshmen aspiring filmmakers, and cramming history down their throats when they really want to get behind a camera and get famous, it's pretty hard to sell them on film as anything but industry or cultural product. Few are the young filmmaking minds who appreciate film as a language or an art, when they're in The George Lucas Building (which has The Spike TV Balcony, no kidding). So, Lucas has come to really represent in a tangible, present way, a push for film to become a particular kind of thing. Oh, I should mention when he expanded the footprint of the film campus by tenfold, he DELIBERATELY REDUCED the number of classrooms equipped to house 35mm projectors. At a film school. At the film school with the best connections to rare prints on 35. Professors want to show Seven Samurai on film, and COULD but CAN'T unless they get scheduled to one particular room. So dedicated to digitalization was he. But, hey, he did include bannisters of his own design. So that evens the score.

Sometime along this journey, I got really into ST:TNG, too, so I sort of donned a recognizeable geek jersey, since nobody knows what league Team Zardoz plays in.

I am a dyed in the wool Star Wars hater.

Or, was.

TFA turned me, y'all. I get it now. I get the whole thing. I love its holes, I love its hoke, I love the heart. I figured out that my special snowflake mixed feelings about SW are not so different from any other fans'. This thread helped me realize that.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:16 PM on January 3, 2016 [34 favorites]

Gosh, this thread is looong. Been reading it for most of my vacation week. Just wanted to comment on this:

I would really, really love to see a strong platonic friendship between a man and a woman shown onscreen.

I too would love to see Rey and Finn as friends and not as a romantic couple. Anyone who saw Veronica Mars knows the best relationship there was between Veronica and Wallace.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 9:39 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

According to the kiddo the best characters are:
1) Rey
2) Finn
3) Slug/squid thing that almost eats Han Solo.
posted by Artw at 9:54 PM on January 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

Also she got tired on the walk home and I had to keep her going by getting her to imagine what inspirational thing Poe Dameron would say.
posted by Artw at 9:57 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

So I finally watched the movie a few days ago, and loved it, and had a huge crush on Rey. But kind of like a platonic, brotherly crush, partly because she looked a lot like my younger sister. And I spent days reading up on Star Wars stuff, speculating on her backstory, and going through this monster of a thread, until finally I realised that it wasn't a crush I was having on Rey; it was that I wanted to be her.

And I thought: Huh. So that's what it feels like for girls.
posted by destrius at 11:49 PM on January 3, 2016 [32 favorites]

When I saw it with my kids (16, 13, 11), my older son kept leaning forward to look past his sister and catch my eyes as if to say "Isn't this great?!" And his older sister wants to see it again.

So, not 6-year olds, but definitely excited kids. (We left the little one, age 7, at home. Still too much for her, I think. Goodness knows there will be a DVD of this here soon...)
posted by wenestvedt at 3:10 AM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

As someone who saw Star Wars ("A New Hope") at the films age four or five, I am fascinated and baffled with parental choices regarding TFA (or anything, really).
posted by Mezentian at 4:44 AM on January 4, 2016

You write "Team Slug/squid thing that almost eats Han Solo" on your helmet and you wear a Team Zardoz button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 5:05 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

eh, I don't have kids myself but even I know that kids are all pretty different, I saw Star Wars aged 8 in the theater and though I never told my parents that scene where Luke discovered his aunt and uncle's burned bodies in the wreckage of their home gave me nightmares. I know four year olds that could handle TFA, and twelve year olds who maybe too impressionable. Kids contain multitudes, as do parenting choices.
posted by lonefrontranger at 5:10 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

My dad took my brother and I to see Under Siege when I was nine and said brother was five or so. And then Species a few years later.

Conclusion: parents will find a way to see movies they want to see, even if that means bringing along kids who are arguably too young for the content.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:33 AM on January 4, 2016

And, I mean, TFA is preeeeeeeeetty tame compared to either of those, and I mostly turned out all right. Mostly.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:34 AM on January 4, 2016

Mezentian: "As someone who saw Star Wars ("A New Hope") at the films age four or five, I am fascinated and baffled with parental choices regarding TFA (or anything, really)."

My four-year-old is a lover of destruction and slapstick and, while the movie would be a bit too long for him and the plot a bit too complicated, it wouldn't have been scary. He is very sophisticated in his understanding of story structure and storytelling conventions and is always telling his brother, "He's not DEAD, it's only the first CHAPTER" or whatever.

My six-year-old, by contrast, is very upset by even cartoon/slapstick violence, and cries whenever there is any kind of anxiety or "stakes" in a movie. Even with Disney movies we often have to pause it and remind him that the bad guy won't win in the end because he gets too upset when the obstacles the hero faces start to get too serious. (Toy Story 3 was so terrifying to him that he wouldn't sleep until we physically removed the movie from the house.) So he likes Star Wars (A New Hope) but we gave TFA a miss in the theater -- I think he'd like it, but I think several of those scenes are a bit too intense for him, especially in a theater.

We'll let both of them watch it when it's out on DVD and they can watch it in the living room with the lights on with a potty break in the middle so the little one can run around for a while, and the ability to pause scary parts to reassure the older one it's only imaginary. They will both like it, but they will like it better in a lower-key setting. After the adults pre-watch the next one (#8?) I expect they'll be ready for that one in the theater, but we will still pre-watch before we let them see it.

Part of my calculation is definitely that we are pretty limited in what entertainment brands we allow them to consume via either media or via toy/stuff purchasing -- basically Disney movies and PBS Kids shows and otherwise it's a case-by-case basis. Super-heroes are huuuuuuuuuge with their friends but we don't allow Marvel/DC stuff for them (it was fucking shocking to me how many people let their 3 and 4 year olds watch the "Iron Man" movie in the theater ... come on, it's PG-13 for realistic violence!); they're far too young and I'm not keen on little kids seeing or emulating "superhero" movies. So Star Wars is one we have no objection to them "consuming" and getting backpacks with R2-D2 or shirts with the characters or whatever, and it is very cool right now, and I'm happy for them to have something "cool" that they can enjoy with their friends. I'm not going to stop being a media-controlling hardass who refuses to buy them toys from brands I object to, so it's good when there's a brand I DON'T object to that I can let them enjoy thoroughly.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:38 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ambrosia Voyeur:

"nobody knows what league Team Zardoz plays in."

Here, I made this especially for you!
posted by charred husk at 6:07 AM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

As someone who saw Star Wars ("A New Hope") at the films age four or five, I am fascinated and baffled with parental choices regarding TFA (or anything, really). For me, also, the deaths of the Aunt and Uncle were -- BY FAR -- the most scary things as a kid.

The original film was rated PG, and only just (the arm in the bar). It has remarkably little violence, even though there are many battles.

In TFA, the violence is much more personal - the blood on Finn's helmet, the explicit slaughter of the entire village, seeing the faces of the people on not-Coruscant as the planet blows up - but for my kid the most terrifying "I can't look" scene is the scene of Rey as a child, crying for her parents as they fly away.

I'm constantly taken aback at what we saw as children as I view it from a parent perspective, but the OT passes the "should he be watching this" test every time.
posted by anastasiav at 6:52 AM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens Ending Details And More Revealed In Official Screenplay
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:59 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm not going to say no young kid should see TFA, but I will say that I feel like there's been a kinda uncomfortable nerd/pop culture push in the last decade or so to show Star Wars to kids early; and I mean, really early. I know people who showed the original trilogy and the prequels to their kids by like age 4 or 5, which completely blew my mind (and in at least one case, led to a kid I know being fairly traumatized because of what his hero Anakin from the cartoons does to a bunch of kids at the end of Episode III).

I love Star Wars, and I'm psyched to see kids start loving it too, but sometimes it does feel like maybe there's a bit too much of a rush to get the kids hooked on it early by well-meaning parents who want their kids to love the things they love.
posted by tocts at 7:17 AM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

I took my son to see the Special Editions when they were released in '97 which would have made him seven and he loved them.
posted by octothorpe at 7:38 AM on January 4, 2016

I'd argue that ever since Jedi, Lucas demonstrably pushed the viewing age of the franchise lower and lower. First the ewoks and then, Phantom Menace, straight up putting a POV character in for people who still can't quite see what sits on a common kitchen counter. This resulted in a backlash which culminated with the grim darkness of Revenge of the Sith. The result is a mixture of movies which bounce back and forth. Not to mention the interlude of the mid to late 80s when we had the Ewok movies, cartoon, and the Droids cartoon.

Now it is definitely marketing on all levels with toys, books, and games designed to reach out to all ages. It's hard to fault parents to thinking that the brand Star Wars doesn't automatically confer a granting of "This is for the whole family!" on every product.
posted by Atreides at 8:01 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

TFA turned me, y'all. I get it now. I get the whole thing. I love its holes, I love its hoke, I love the heart. I figured out that my special snowflake mixed feelings about SW are not so different from any other fans'.

Star Wars is something we (fandom) all have a bit of a strained relationship with; when it is done right, the mix of headlong action and thrills speeds you over the plot holes while the heart leavens the hoke. Still, welcome!

I'm not going to say no young kid should see TFA, but I will say that I feel like there's been a kinda uncomfortable nerd/pop culture push in the last decade or so to show Star Wars to kids early;

I started my oldest with ANH at age 6; Empire and Jedi came over the next couple of years, and then the prequels. He has never seen RotS; not just because the material is darker, but because even now at the age of 10, I don't think he can contextualize it properly. He loves the action and everything blowing up, and I don't think he would see the story of Anakin's fall as much more than a series of cool fight scenes that he wants to re-enact. He loves superhero stuff, but I've been keeping him away from the Marvel and DC films for the same reason as I'm not letting him see RotS. I'm introducing him to Star Trek instead, and that's a bit of a slower process because Trek (well, classic Trek) is more cerebral in terms of what it is doing, so he finds it less engaging on the visceral level that he tends to prefer/want. He has some learning disabilities and isn't necessarily as emotionally mature as you might expect for 10. But I figure he needs to be fed different stories that engage different parts of him, and if Trek isn't a fit, something else will be. I'm reading him Narnia and Potter and whatever else I think might grab his interest too; it's hard finding stuff that hits his interest and his abilities at times.

His younger brother, on the other hand, has a better grasp of story and meaning at this point and could likely handle RotS, but won't be allowed to see it because his older brother isn't. And he's fine with that; he loves so many different things that it doesn't matter to him.

It all depends on the kid. I was thrilled to take my boys to a brand new Star Wars movie, and have it be a film we all enjoyed. As they continue to grow and mature, I'm looking forward to sharing more of my favourites - Terminator 1 & 2; Alien and Aliens; the Lord of the Rings, and so forth. And, hopefully, discovering new stories with them.
posted by nubs at 8:27 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

All the crawls have four dots, with the exception of ROTJ.

THERE. ARE. THREE. DOTS!
posted by phearlez at 10:19 AM on January 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

IT'S. CALLED. ELLIPSIS!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:26 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Did C-3PO's red arm come from R-3PO. Why was it red?

There's apparently a story there.

So the red protocol droid among the Resistance seeing Chewy and Rey off might be where C-3PO's red arm went, but not the same one that he originally got it from... Interesting...
posted by numaner at 11:29 AM on January 4, 2016

That was C3P0?

Didn't recognize him…
posted by mazola at 11:55 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

That was C3P0?

Didn't recognize him…

My wife and I both commented that C3P0 looked a little...larger...than we remembered.
posted by nubs at 11:57 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah so I learned from the Flash Gordon thing that the four dot elipsis is a tribute to the ancient Flash Gordon serial crawls as they ended with four dots.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:00 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Flash Gordon did a better job of indicating it was a period followed by an ellipsis.
posted by mazola at 12:06 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah so I learned from the Flash Gordon thing that the four dot elipsis is a tribute to the ancient Flash Gordon serial crawls as they ended with four dots.

FWIW, four dots is morse code for the letter H. Which looks a bit like a TIE Fighter.
posted by popcassady at 12:18 PM on January 4, 2016

The background to C-3PO's arm is to be told in a Marvel comics one shot story about C-3PO and how it happened. It was supposed to be out last month. Apparently it must have revelations we're not quite prepared for.
posted by Atreides at 12:37 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Finally saw it yesterday (and I tried to read this whole thread before commenting, but I'm still only up to December 22nd - wow there's a lot to go thorugh). Loved it. Hated the Starkiller plot - even our 7 year old said "Are you kidding me?" when it was revealed that they had to hit one spot and blow it up. But I figured maybe that is the price of admission JJ Abrams had to pay to get to play in the sandbox.

I loved angry Ren attacking the machinery more than anything - Vader would turn that anger on people, but Ren - even with people right there - only hit the things. It's another subtle way to show that there's still light-side within him, as well as showing that he's just Not Ready Yet.

Loved the scene with Rey and Finn both so excited that they can't even listen to each other, they just keep overtalking each other with how cool the thing they just did was. They both felt so real.

I think my favorite part was the look Han Solo gave Rey when she said (paraphrasing) "I didn't know anyplace in the galaxy was so green!" - It looked so surprised and also familiar that it made me rack my brains for whether that was a Luke line from IV. I totally got backstory from it, that Luke probably had the exact same reaction when he left Tatooine and saw his first planet with meadows or forests, and that here Han was reliving that in some way.

I would be okay if Rey turns out to be Luke's kid (and they sure seem to be hinting that she is), since that's how Star Wars is with the Skywalker-force thing. But I'm secretly hoping she's actually Ren's twin. That Han was away during the pregnancy/birth and didn't know there were twins, and Leia was told (maybe via prophecy) that the good side's only hope was to hide one away, and not let anyone know. Then the girl was taken from her foster parents to protect her and things went awry, so no one knew where she was -- but that Leia maybe has an idea or a hope when they meet that she could be her (and Ren gets twinges but can't figure out why - which Rey can't tell him even subconsciously because she doesn't know). I can't even admit how disappointed I was that when Rey takes off from the rebel base to find Luke, she didn't have her hair in braids of some sort. The only problem with my theory is that the way naming works in Star Wars, if he was Ben then her birth name would have to be Bey, which would be unconscionable.
posted by Mchelly at 12:38 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also, anyone else thinking that the reason Ren killing his father felt so empty for him was because there was no reason for him to kill his father to prove anything other than the symbolic / Oedipal thing (and who knows if the story of Oedipus is even canon)? To become stronger in the dark side, you have to defeat the parent-figure imbued with the power of the force. If that's true, then Han is nothing. And killing him did nothing. If Ren wants to rise to the top of his power, he has to kill Leia.
posted by Mchelly at 12:41 PM on January 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hated the Starkiller plot - even our 7 year old said "Are you kidding me?" when it was revealed that they had to hit one spot and blow it up.

I actually thought Han did a nice job of lampshading that a bit - "So? It's big. There's always something to shoot that makes it blow up, isn't there?" or whatever his line was.
posted by nubs at 12:41 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Threepio's arm is red because it has been drenched in the blood of innocents. Threepio=Snoke confirmed
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:41 PM on January 4, 2016 [16 favorites]

Did anybody else notice the odd recurring theme of people taking and using things that didn't belong to them, and then being told by their rightful owners that it was okay that they'd done so? Finn with Poe's jacket and Rey with the Millennium Falcon being the two obvious examples.

I thought that a bit of really funny author anxiety leaking into the text, like J.J. Abrams wants nothing more than for George Lucas to come up to him and say, "that's my jacket. No, keep it. It suits you."
posted by gauche at 1:41 PM on January 4, 2016 [24 favorites]

Oh dear.
posted by Artw at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2016

On second viewing I noticed that Kylo Ren twirls his lightsaber down low on his right side before shouting "Traitor!" and attacking Finn, in an echo of [FN-2199 or FN-2000, aka "TR-8R"].
posted by Foosnark at 2:01 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kylo's accusation of traitor (which, to be honest, is exactly what Finn is to the First Order cause), was really the first time that he had vocalized any real solidarity with what the First Order was about or that he could be bothered that a random storm trooper would desert and work with the enemy. As a result, even for the third time on viewing, it felt kind of out of place. Up until that point, minus him speaking on behalf of the First Order before cutting down the old man in the beginning, it seemed his mission was much more oriented towards Darth Vader's of obliterating the Jedi. The First Order seemed to be more of a vessel to carry his grudge on, than to be a member and fervent member of its crew.
posted by Atreides at 2:17 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

He's not even necessarily talking about Finn as a traitor to the First Order as a whole -- he might just still be angry about Poe's jailbreak.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:23 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

So when Kylo Ren takes off his mask for the first time, he sets it down carefully in what appears to be a custom-built Mask Tray lined with raked charcoal. What's up with that that? Are those Vader's ashes? Or is it just a pile of activated carbon intended to soak up mask odors?
posted by Iridic at 2:23 PM on January 4, 2016 [12 favorites]

It occurred to me second time round Kylo Ren's crossbar and sword fighting style and those little twirling flourishes seem to really play up the whole "knight" thing.
posted by Artw at 2:28 PM on January 4, 2016

I assumed Vader's ashes (or ashes from Endor - because have you ever tried to really, really clean a charcoal grill?), but that scene really jumped at me.

And now, kids!

it does feel like maybe there's a bit too much of a rush to get the kids hooked on it early by well-meaning parents who want their kids to love the things they love.

Yeah. Most kids I know of seem to have been put off by the devotion of their parents to the OT.
Pre-TFA I only know of one kid who was massively into Star Wars, and I think her 5yo self puts adults to shame.

This resulted in a backlash which culminated with the grim darkness of Revenge of the Sith

Sith was always going to be grim and dark grimdarkness, what with the dead younglings and all. Has Lucas indicated he made any major story changes between TPM and RotS? I'm not even sure he's ever admitted that Jar Jar's role was scaled back.
posted by Mezentian at 2:29 PM on January 4, 2016

I think the kiddo was 6 or 7 when we watched StR Wars first? Seemed to work for her, had it was more of a special occasion thing than "here kid, here's a new video to watch as naseum" - we've always liked sitting down and watching a more complex movie with her once in a while rather than just plonking her in front of things.

Empire we had a bit of a wait before though, because that gets dark. And it's notable that though we watched Jedi a bunch of times Empire has only been viewed once.
posted by Artw at 2:48 PM on January 4, 2016

What's up with that that? Are those Vader's ashes? Or is it just a pile of activated carbon intended to soak up mask odors?

Both? Or maybe the burned husk of Vader's mask from the earlier scene finally disintegrated?
But like, did he move that thing into that interrogation room specifically for the reveal? Man, he's really perpetuating the over-dramatic emo stereotype. (Also, it seems to have been taken out of the room by the time Rey carried out her escape)

I'd think the Empire and the First Order has mask odor eliminating technology built into their helmets since everyone has one. It's probably why the mask can filter out smoke but not toxins. You can see how much Finn can work up a sweat in one but not repel people when he takes it off.
posted by numaner at 2:49 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

It occurred to me second time round Kylo Ren's crossbar and sword fighting style and those little twirling flourishes seem to really play up the whole "knight" thing.

He's the son of General Organa and General Solo (and note that when Han identifies himself to Finn and Rey, there are two reactions - famous smuggler/pilot and famous Rebel leader) and the nephew of the only Jedi in the universe. He's scared he won't ever measure up to what his family has achieved, and is so desperate to carve his own identity, he'll copy anything that might work. So he's a knight, a Sith wannabe, a big shot in the First Order, and a small kid trying desperately to find something of his own. His whole shtick right now appears to be style over substance - the mask, the voice, the clothing, the lightsaber, the fighting style. He's playing dress-up and stealing whatever touches and flourishes make him appear as something, even if it's all copied from somewhere else and he isn't really anything unique yet. But, as Kurt Vonnegut has pointed out, we are that which we pretend to be...

I'm hoping this doesn't end with his redemption, but rather his continuing descent into the Dark Side as he keeps reaching for meaning and connection and never gets it. A new Darth Vader, but one created out of despair and fear of irrelevance, rather than one who gets tricked into joining the Sith.
posted by nubs at 2:58 PM on January 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

I think my favorite part was the look Han Solo gave Rey when she said (paraphrasing) "I didn't know anyplace in the galaxy was so green!" - It looked so surprised and also familiar that it made me rack my brains for whether that was a Luke line from IV. I totally got backstory from it, that Luke probably had the exact same reaction when he left Tatooine and saw his first planet with meadows or forests, and that here Han was reliving that in some way.

I also got a sense that there was some backstory from that look. After three viewings I've ended ended up reading it as a moment of guilt / regret, perhaps as if Han has something to do with the fact that she's never seen so much green.

Kylo's accusation of traitor (which, to be honest, is exactly what Finn is to the First Order cause), was really the first time that he had vocalized any real solidarity with what the First Order was about or that he could be bothered that a random storm trooper would desert and work with the enemy. As a result, even for the third time on viewing, it felt kind of out of place.

Yeah it kind of seemed out of character for him to give any fucks at all about a storm trooper defecting--so out of place that I can't help but wonder whether it was even directed at Finn. Perhaps instead of "after force-flinging Rey into a tree, Kylo Ren turns to Finn, yells 'traitor' then moves to attack him," we should read that line as "Kylo Ren force-flings Rey into a tree and yells 'traitor.' He then moves to attack Finn."

I'm not positing that was necessarily the case, but I did wonder.... (Four dot ellipsis yo)
posted by dersins at 2:59 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I hate to belabor a point that's probably already been dealt with above, but I had assumed that when he killed his father that this was the completion of his training that Snoke was referring to which means all the rest of his training was basically done (unless I'm misremembering the order of those events).

You're misremembering.

1. Han and Chewie set charges in the reactor core thing.
2. Han confronts Kylo Ren and gets sabered.
3. Chewie goes nuts and blows up everything.
4. Poe notices that the shield is down and directs the few remaining fighters in on a final attack run.
5. Rey, Finn, and Kylo Ren all run out into the snow.
6. As they beat the crap out of each other, mostly Kylo Ren beating the crap out of the two heroes, Poe blows up the reactor.
7. Hux runs into Imperial Tattletale Room to tell Snoke that everything's ruined.
8. Snoke tells Hux to find Kylo Ren and bring him to Snoke, because it's time to complete Kylo Ren's training. It's pretty close to the last significant line of the movie.

Regarding racial problems in Poe's renaming of Finn: I think it feels different if Finn had a name, or even a number, in which he'd invested identity. I think the script is smart to have Poe immediately ask Finn, "That ok with you?" and to have him reply, "Yeah. Yeah, I like that." I think the script is much less smart to make his name Finn, because you're just inviting Huck Finn / Jim comparisons at that point and there's way more to unpack there than Star Wars is reasonably capable of doing. But it doesn't read to me like Poe is giving Finn either a slave name or an "Americanized" name; if anything, it's closer to newly freed slaves taking their previous household or occupation as a surname upon emancipation, especially since Finn is the motivating force behind their escape and is not a passive participant woodenly following the next closest authority.

Here is a thing that just occurred to me. Phasma interrogates Finn. Then we see Finn breaking Poe out. Kylo Ren identifies Finn as the traitor, and Phasma says he was sent to reconditioning. What if he did get sent to reconditioning in that period of time? What if he was reconditioned to have a personality, to effect that escape, for some other purpose? The next time we see Phasma, she's being held at gunpoint by Finn, and she gives up the shield commands and submits very easily, so easily that her character is getting tons of flack for being useless. But what if she knows something about Finn that they don't? Maybe Phasma's a Resistance plant, or maybe Finn's a Manchurian candidate, but doesn't that make more sense than hiring Brienne of Tarth to roll over and play dead?
posted by Errant at 3:12 PM on January 4, 2016 [21 favorites]

Yeah it kind of seemed out of character for him to give any fucks at all about a storm trooper defecting--so out of place that I can't help but wonder whether it was even directed at Finn.

At the beginning of the movie, on Jakku, Kylo Ren looks directly at Finn, sensing his hesitation in killing the villagers. Later on, when discussing Finn's escape, Ren knows his ID number and says "FN-2187" aloud.

Maybe it feels a bit clumsy, but they did try to establish that Ren knows who he is.
posted by Fleebnork at 3:21 PM on January 4, 2016

doesn't that make more sense than hiring Brienne of Tarth to roll over and play dead?

I thought she was just looking for the Stark girls and had gone undercover.
posted by nubs at 3:25 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why Rey Is Obi Wan Kenobi's Granddaughter
posted by larrybob at 3:33 PM on January 4, 2016

Hokey fan theories and ancient clickbait is no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:36 PM on January 4, 2016 [12 favorites]

Clickbait is so uncivilised.

(That's a modified quip from Attack of the Clones. I just needed to point that out, since... it is from Attack of the Clones).
posted by Mezentian at 3:42 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

The what now?
posted by entropicamericana at 3:44 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ooh mooey mooey I love you!
posted by mazola at 3:44 PM on January 4, 2016

Revenge of the Sith, IIRC.
posted by Artw at 3:51 PM on January 4, 2016

Nerd!
posted by Mezentian at 3:53 PM on January 4, 2016

ArtW is correct. It is not from the arena battle, but the epic throwdown with everyone's favourite killer cyborg (from Clone Wars) General Grevious.

I should have known something was wrong when I quoted AotC.
posted by Mezentian at 3:55 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Even worse than a nerd, he's a prequel nerd! GET HIM, BOYS!
posted by entropicamericana at 3:55 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

C'mon, it's a call back (forwards?) to Episode IV. It's not like "How wude!" or something.
posted by Artw at 3:58 PM on January 4, 2016

I think the script is much less smart to make his name Finn, because you're just inviting Huck Finn / Jim comparisons at that point and there's way more to unpack there than Star Wars is reasonably capable of doing.

Anyone making that comparison sounds more racist than anything in the movie. Seriously, I was thrilled to see a major black character in the franchise * and Finn's appearance in the first trailer really piqued my interested. It read like a signal that these movies were going to be very different.

But no, people are going to huge lengths to connect the one black character to slavery. It's just depressing and makes me think most of the white population just will not be able to ever rid themselves of racism.

* Where the fuck is Lando?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:59 PM on January 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Where the fuck is Lando?

I recall hearing he's coming back in Episode VIII in some capacity, but I haven't seen that confirmed that I can recall.

I just hope he's an old swindler and rascal.
posted by Mezentian at 4:03 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Lando is super fun in Rebels.
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM on January 4, 2016

I really want to see Lando in the next movie retired, living the good life, and just completely making the most of that whole "blew up the second Death Star" thing. Like it'd be great if there's a scene where they have to fly through Coruscant or something and there's just a GIANT animated billboard of Lando The Death Star Blower Upper endorsing some space product.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:04 PM on January 4, 2016 [18 favorites]

endorsing some space product

Some sort of alcohol perhaps?
posted by Mezentian at 4:05 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Whatever deathsticks got rebranded as.

They're toasted!
posted by Artw at 4:06 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

You're envisioning Bill Murray in Lost in Translation (which would be one kind of awesome). I think more "Buffalo Lando's Wild West Death Star Show" - his own thing.

Or maybe he's gone straight, leader of an ascetic order somewhere, respectable citizen, etc.... and when our characters show up, he tells them he's left all that behind and he can offer them a life of peace and service,... and then at the critical moment when Ren's ship touches down, he shows them the escape tunnels and they pass through the bootlegging operation on their way to the secret launchpad.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:10 PM on January 4, 2016 [15 favorites]

Also he will mispronounce the names of the new characters. "Fann," "Roy," etc.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:12 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

At the beginning of the movie, on Jakku, Kylo Ren looks directly at Finn, sensing his hesitation in killing the villagers. Later on, when discussing Finn's escape, Ren knows his ID number and says "FN-2187" aloud.

Maybe it feels a bit clumsy, but they did try to establish that Ren knows who he is.

I get the sense that Ren felt something in the Force relating to Finn, and it's related to the "awakening" that he and Snoke are afraid of; I half-suspect we're going to see two Jedi heroes, though with Rey being the stronger. It could just be that Finn throwing off his conditioning (twice) and wielding a lightsaber gives that impression though.
posted by Foosnark at 4:14 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

I feel like it could still go either way, but I don't think Maz would give a lightsaber to any old schmo to use as a weapon.
posted by kmz at 4:18 PM on January 4, 2016

A new Darth Vader, but one created out of despair and fear of irrelevance, rather than one who gets tricked into joining the Sith.

Almost as if his desperation to find Luke Skywalker is rooted in a need to find an enemy to provide a purpose for his existence as a Space Witch and Darth Vader Cosplayer as much or more than any true crusade to wipe out the last Jedi for pure elimination's sake....
posted by tobascodagama at 4:19 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I could see him giving a lot of talks, selling motivational holovids, etc

"To unlock your true potential and realize the success and prosperity that's always been waiting for you, the first thing you have to do is destroy the Death Star...inside yourself."
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:29 PM on January 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

doesn't that make more sense than hiring Brienne of Tarth to roll over and play dead?

I thought she was just looking for the Stark girls and had gone undercover.

No that's done, she's luring Jaime to the Brotherhood Without Banners. Jaime probably joined The First Order to get a replacement hand and to train with that sweet vibro electric rotating stick.
posted by numaner at 4:34 PM on January 4, 2016

Well, that's silly. Jamie's in ancient Egypt.
posted by Mezentian at 4:35 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's. Not. Canonical.
posted by numaner at 4:40 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

C'mon, it's a call back (forwards?) to Episode IV. It's not like "How wude!" or something.

"How wude!" was a callback to Empire, when C-3PO met the foul-mouthed silver protocol droid in Cloud City.
posted by infinitewindow at 4:58 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wow.

Double-fuck Jar Jar Binks then.
posted by Artw at 5:15 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Before the movie began, as we were sitting there in nervous anticipation, I turned to my brother-in-law and exclaimed, "Meesa hope dere's muya muya pod-racing!"
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:21 PM on January 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's like poetry, so that they rhyme.
posted by entropicamericana at 5:21 PM on January 4, 2016

So I saw the trailer again and felt a vague twinge of guilt at a line Rey says - "You have a pilot!" and remembered why. In all the run-up to TFA, it never once occurred to me that she would be the pilot. I thought she must mean Han Solo or that Finn might be the pilot if he just believed in himself or some hero's journey bullshit, just - I couldn't even conceive of her being the pilot at all because she was the girl running in danger, the girl to be saved.

It reminds me of how I felt when I was little and first saw the bounty hunter rescuing Han Solo from the carbonate freezing and for a glorious moment thought Boba Fett had changed his mind. Those hopes were dashed, but TFA made Star Wars bigger than I thought it could be.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:05 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

the first thing you have to do is destroy the Death Star...inside yourself.

In a way all of us have a Death Star to face. For some, military conditioning might be their Death Star. For others, a lack of force sensitivity might be their Death Star. For us, the Death Star is a big dangerous weapon that wants to kill us. But sure as my name is Poe Dameron, the people of Yavin 4 can conquer their own personal Death Star, which also happens to be the actual Death Star!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:12 PM on January 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

*Applauds Jon Mitchell* *Imagines Kylo Ren's troops getting him a nice sweater.*
posted by drezdn at 7:26 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

On my second viewing, my favorite scene is when Han and Finn are going into the Super Deathstar Planet base and Han realizes he doesn't know how to disable the shields, and Finn goes "we'll figure it out -- we'll use the Force!" and Han is like, the hell you talkin' about, dude, that's not how the Force works.
posted by deathpanels at 8:01 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd wear this shirt.
posted by sandswipe at 8:12 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

So I was checking out the updated Millennium Falcon artwork / diagram and the part where they said Falcon got a galley installed as a wedding present to Leia struck me as so tone deaf to both the universe they were presenting this new, diverse Star Wars, and also to the past characters.

I can think of a hundred comical reasons to imagine the Falcon as a family space RV, some out of touch aunt sending a well meaning wedding present as a coupon at "space galleys incorporated" but I don't think the authors / designers thought of it that way.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:14 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

All the Organas got killed on Coruscant, and I love the idea of Leia and Han going to visit his family for the holidays.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:23 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I guess they didn't want to just spring for a separate camper van.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:29 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oregano Croissants?
posted by mazola at 9:56 PM on January 4, 2016

All the Organas got killed on Coruscant

Alderaan? Or am I missing a reference?

the part where they said Falcon got a galley installed as a wedding present to Leia struck me as so tone deaf to both the universe they were presenting this new, diverse Star Wars, and also to the past characters

It strikes me as odd there wasn't some sort of galley on the Falcon in the first place. I mean, did Han and Chewie eat Space Takeaway all those years?
posted by Mezentian at 10:30 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, they used to go to that one diner, but the health department shut it down after the incident from Spaceballs.
posted by ckape at 10:36 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Alderaan? Or am I missing a reference?

No, my mistake - Alderaan.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:40 PM on January 4, 2016

I can think of a hundred comical reasons to imagine the Falcon as a family space RV,

Winnebago! I now REALLY want to see "Galactic Vacation" with Han and Leia and cranky teen Ben.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:51 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

And, in looking up whether Bail Organa was actually on Alderaan when it exploded (he was, according to Wookiepedia) I discovered that George Lucas initially approached the English actor Ray Winstone to portray Princess Leia’s stepfather, but Ray turned up to the audition still drunk from the night before.
posted by Mezentian at 10:58 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, did Han and Chewie eat Space Takeaway all those years?

You ever see a hairnet big enough for a wookie?
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:20 AM on January 5, 2016

And now we know what to get a wookiee for Christmas* when he already has a comb.

(*Or Life Day).
posted by Mezentian at 12:36 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Where the fuck is Lando?

There's still a chance to save Han.
posted by popcassady at 2:23 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

"The background to C-3PO's arm is to be told in a Marvel comics one shot story about C-3PO and how it happened. It was supposed to be out last month. Apparently it must have revelations we're not quite prepared for."

My response to this to a couple of friends on whatsapp:

"It was originally assembled by a young anakin until watto confiscated it and sold it to jawas. Eventually it was bought by ponda baba who used it as a replacement for the one obi wan cut off. It picked up force sensitivity from the lightsabre wound it was attached to. Eventually it was lost in a podracing bet to ev-9d9 who traded it to Mara jade when she was working as a smuggler out of moss espa. She left it on alderaan where it was stolen by bothans working for wat tambor. When cham syndulla helped defeat the droid occupation of ryloth he took the red arm as a trophy. He passed it down to his daughter Hera syndulla who kept it aboard the ghost until chopper stole it for Ezra who traded it to lando calrissian for some shield generators. Lando kept it for a while until he lost it in a sabacc game to BoShek. Years later boshek lost it back to lando who stored it in a super secret compartment on the millennium falcon which he then ironically lost to han in a sabacc game. It stayed there for years until unkar plutt found the super secret compartment. He sold it to ello asty who donated it to c3p0 after the unspecified accident where he lost his original one. Also ahsoka tano was there."

There was no response to my... theories.
I realise probably because Mara Jade isn't necessarily canon any more.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:37 AM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh also,

No Rey in Star Wars Monopoly.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:09 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

No Rey in Star Wars Monopoly.

So, basically, they should leave the black person out in favour of the fe-male?
There is no way to win that argument.

(Except, of course, you have OT era, prequel era and new era... which is... duh... so fucking obvious, so you can sell more playing bits).

I am right there with that Target set confusion. I have the Rebels set (no Sabine or Hera, fine) but where's Rey? I mean... even in the '70s we needed Leia. She was one of the original 12.

Or, where is Han? I mean, what's with the ageism?
posted by Mezentian at 3:45 AM on January 5, 2016

There's like eight tokens in standard Monopoly set so there's plenty of room for them to have included other characters (like Rey and Plasma for Rebels and Empire)... unless they wanted to keep costs down / profits up by only having four.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:08 AM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

The Monopoly set contains the main protagonist and antagonist Force users from the OT (Luke and Vader) but then contains the Force using antagonist and the Non-Force Using deuteragonist. It seems odd, especially in light of their other choices in the other toy lines.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:17 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

I can see four monopoly characters.

That means there are two (at least) I cannot see (assuming there are sufficient Monopoly characters - it has been a while).

If there are four, hell, I think the race Vs gender issue is worth considering, because you are between Hux and Kylo and everyone else assuming you want OT and NT.
posted by Mezentian at 5:25 AM on January 5, 2016

Or if you wanted two from each "Era"
Kylo Ren, Darth Vader, and Darth Maul for the Force Powered Antagonist
Rey, Luke, and Obi Wan, I guess....
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:30 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fitness meets science fiction at a “Star Wars”-themed cardio class
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 5:36 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

There is literally no good reason for them not to have included the protagonist of the movie in the monopoly game based on it, and trying to make it a case of "either the girl or the minority" is s super disingenuous.

It's sadly amusing to see the writer go to such lengths to reason why Finn should be excluded in favor of Rey, while insisting Vader has to be in a game based on movie he didn't even appear in.

I'd really love to see the decision making process that went into making this game with these figures.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:21 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Melted Vader Helmet would make a good traditional style monopoly piece.
posted by Artw at 6:38 AM on January 5, 2016 [11 favorites]

SHOUTING.
posted by Artw at 6:40 AM on January 5, 2016

I want a monopoly piece of Luke's hand. Or limbless, angry Anakin.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:44 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

"You have lost the high ground. Crawl burning in pain on withered stumps to Jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 Space Bucks."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:47 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

I've seen that excuse for some of the other toy exclusions too and it's total bunk because she was all over the trailers, so we knew she was important somehow.

Also, why do they only have 4 player tokens? Don't Monopoly sets usually have at least 6? Add Rey and Phasma, done!
posted by kmz at 6:54 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Strangely, it looks like they only include four pieces, despite the fact that it's really just monopoly with a circular board, and traditional monopoly plays up to 6 (edit: it looks like it's actually a simplified and streamlined version of the rules - still no reason to not sit 6). I guess the production cost of painted plastic miniatures lowered the margins on shitting out a themed monopoly set, so they could only include 4. I don't buy the 'spoiler' justification. It seems like they were trying to keep production costs to a certain level, but wanted the miniatures as game pieces. Therefore they made a decision that was both cheap and sexist, and tried to include only male pieces to appeal to the demographic they saw as most likely to buy Star Wars merch, without thinking that a) little girls might want to do so, and b) that little boys wouldn't want to play as a girl.

Maybe the silver lining here is that it may guide people away from board games that aren't a total and complete waste of time.
posted by codacorolla at 6:54 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

At least Star Wars Monopoly is bringing the excitement of trade disputes back into childhood games.
posted by tocts at 6:55 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

Rey is right there front and center in all of the trailers, it doesn't really take that much to figure out she's a central character.
posted by Artw at 7:02 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes Monopoly is terrible.
How about Love Letter with a star wars theme, but instead of a love letter you all play Bothans trying to get the stolen plans to Leia.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:06 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

The justification of Rey's exclusion in toys because they didn't want to spoil the movie is both creatively lazy and still sexist because no one in the decision making process really thought there would be a problem releasing a set of toys without the main female protagonist.

They couldn't have just released the toys and box art with Rey wielding her bow staff and making sure the figurines hand grips can also take a Light Saber? So you know, when you got the box set of all the characters you could take Lukes (or Kylo's) saber and put it in her hand?
posted by mrzarquon at 7:16 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is reminding me I should dig out the Star Wars branded Face Off I have somewhere for the kids.

"Are they a Gungan?"
posted by Artw at 7:19 AM on January 5, 2016

UPDATE: Reached for comment, a Hasbro spokesperson said in a statement to EW, “The Star Wars: Monopoly game was released in September, months before the movie’s release, and Rey was not included to avoid revealing a key plot line that she takes on Kylo Ren and joins the Rebel Alliance.”

That does seem lame, but none of the trailers feature Rey wielding a light saber, or flying the Falcon, so the reasoning does sound consistent. Finn was the only one of the two shown using a light saber, and it was indeed a sweet surprise to see how bad ass Rey is. It's just disappointing that the toy lines didn't seem to plan for her, especially considering it was Christmas time. Have they never heard of expansion packs?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:23 AM on January 5, 2016

But like... even without wielding a lightsaber or flying the Falcon, it was obvious she was at least a co-protagonist.
posted by kmz at 7:27 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

A public relations makeover to include vilifying the rebels who blew up Death Star. Also a changing the name of the second Death Star to something like "Freedom Keeper 5000" or "The Sphere of Liberty and Justice." Never miss an opportunity to remind the public that the rebels are enemies of Liberty and Justice. Nothing brings a regime together like a shared enemy!

Management consultants offer business advice to the Empire in Star Wars
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:27 AM on January 5, 2016

Even if you buy the "didn't want to spoil her significance" line, the point is they didn't want to spoil her significance because they were afraid people wouldn't go to the film if "the girl" was a/the main fucking character. Now, maybe it's the lesser of two evils, they tricked people (men) into watching the film anyhow and we all survived and now they can release Rey toys, but any way you cut it, it's still a slice of sexist-cake. And on the argument that since part of the unavailability of Rey figures is that they've sold out; show me your fucking order chits, you ordered in as many Rey as Ren, right?
posted by Iteki at 7:34 AM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

But like... even without wielding a lightsaber or flying the Falcon, it was obvious she was at least a co-protagonist.

I want to be clear that I don't like or agree with having less Rey anywhere, just noting their questionable judgement is at least consistent.

I am pleased that movie trailers are doing a little mis-direction and not giving the story completely away. But it wouldn't have hurt anything to have shown Rey wielding her staff in the trailer to hint how badass she really is.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:47 AM on January 5, 2016

The poster, at least, has Rey wielding her staff aggressively as the focus. (It also has Finn with the lightsaber, which is misleading. But, he did manage to use that thing in multiple fights without getting his hand chopped off, which puts him ahead of most force users who have wielded it.)
posted by ckape at 8:05 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

If Rey walloping those thugs with her staff wasn't in the trailer, it was definitely in the TV spots. Not to mention she is the focus of the trailer. It opens with her (masked) face and Maz asking her who she is. Maybe instead of saying "I'm no one," Rey should have replied "I'm Rey. I am strong in the force, an excellent mechanic, extremely capable in hand-to-hand combat, I can fly the Millennium Falcon better than Han Solo, and I'm the protagonist of this mothefucking movie, motherfucker." Or would that have been too subtle for today's audience?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:11 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's really hard to parse the sincerity of the excuse with the historical lack of support for female action heroes in product merchandising. Almost zilch of the movie would have been spoiled (and perhaps zilch) if they had released Jakku Rey with her staff. In fact, it probably would have garnered manufacturers more if they had then waited until after the movie's opening and then released new versions with Jedi Rey or whatever. The excuse has been dropped regarding a lot of Rey's absence, but it doesn't line up well given how Black Widow was treated in the Age of Ultron marketing. It's just this time they have a barely plausible reason for doing what they've always done.
posted by Atreides at 8:11 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

Not to mention she is the focus of the trailer.

Pedantic note, there were a couple of trailers, at least two or three, plus a teaser or two.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:20 AM on January 5, 2016

I still maintained that they should've held back all merchandising until a week after release (except for maybe BB-8, 'cause come on), and people would've still bought up everything like mad. There's no need for all these toys to come out as marketing material when everyone who would see the movie has already seen it in the first week.
posted by numaner at 8:36 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Holding toys back is impossible with Christmas deadlines.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:40 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

See The Empire Strikes Back as a Silent Film — Precisely How George Lucas Imagined the Star Wars Films
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:54 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

For the last few years I've wangled a media pass to the big toy expo in London and there are a lot of movie spoilers there.
When we visited the Lego stand a few years back they had to black out a lot of parts of several sets and limit access to some because they contained big spoilers for a marvel movie.
We snuck a look anyway.

If a buncha idiots with no real connection to the industry can get these spoilers think about the whole supply chain, the designers, the manufacturers, box artists even down to the people manning the booths.
Not to mention the buyers who the show is really for, from Toys R Us to the small one person toy shop down the road, they all get to see these things months in advance of release.
No way you're keeping secrets and also getting your product in the shop by Christmas.

I think if they wanted to keep Rey being the jedi of the film a secret but still prominent in the merch you could have the film people talk to the execs and say "Hey, you're gonna want to make her a prominent toy, wink wink nudge nudge" and the toy execs are going to harumph and pshaw and then make what they reckon sells anyway and then you get this.

So that probably is what happened.
Because although I was avoiding spoilers I didn't see any hint that Rey was going to be the one ending up with a lightsaber.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 8:55 AM on January 5, 2016

Because although I was avoiding spoilers I didn't see any hint that Rey was going to be the one ending up with a lightsaber.

I didn't avoid spoilers (well, all but the absolutely most egregious ones), and that was still a surprise to me, too. The moment when the lightsaber flies past Kylo Ren and into her hands stands after three viewings as still one of the most exhilarating moments of the movie for me.

The simple answer is that it wouldn't have been hard to merchandise Rey as presented in the trailer (which starts off with her face filling the screen) and equipped with her staff (also in the trailer). I think the truth of the matter is having two X chromosomes as a character in modern movie making is still seen as somewhat radioactive in certain sectors of the merchandising industry. This time they're handwaving away criticism by shifting it to J.J. Abrams' love of secrecy and hatred of spoilers. When you look at their excuse closely enough, it's quite obvious that dog don't hunt.
posted by Atreides at 9:52 AM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

Did no one else noticed that Poe Dameron's jacket has one red shoulder, just like the Storm Trooper NCOs? HE'S A MOLE, PEOPLE: where else do you think he went for the middle 100 minutes of the movie?!

Evidence: Poe's jacket here, Empire NCO here.

*sits back, crosses arms smugly*
posted by wenestvedt at 10:50 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Evidence: Poe's jacket here, Empire NCO here.

And also C3P0. Maybe red shoulders are just really in this season.
posted by phunniemee at 11:00 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

3PO has been...turned?!
posted by wenestvedt at 11:47 AM on January 5, 2016

No, C-3PO hasn't been turned. He's executing his original core programming.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 12:09 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Post-Anakin-Death Protocol... ACTIVATED.
posted by numaner at 12:13 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Post-Anakin-Death Protocol... ACTIVATED.

Order 67.
posted by drezdn at 12:17 PM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think the red arm-y is a cold war metaphor somehow.
posted by mazola at 12:21 PM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm wondering if there's a first draft of the script out there without Han Solo, working from the assumption that Harrison Ford wouldn't sign up to do another installment in a franchise he famously hates.

In that version, Poe doesn't disappear for the entire second act, but stays with Finn (mirroring R2 and 3PO's trek across the desert) and pilots the Falcon during their escape. Finn still acts as gunner, and Rey fixes the hyperdrive which is broken as usual.

Poe takes them to the bar to meet up with his contact, and the plots re-converge with the exception of Leia being the parent killed by her son. She goes out onto the bridge because she can sense good in him, and bam.

Once Ford signed up they cut Poe from the middle section to give Han something to do, and had Rey take over piloting which has the bonus of making her a stronger character.
posted by Eddie Mars at 12:42 PM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

By the way, why weren't they captured by the Star Destroyer in orbit at Jakku as soon as they left the surface? They never jumped to hyper space to leave the system.

Seems like a strange oversight as you could easily have used it to explain why Han and Chewie found them...they jumped blindly to the last location in the computer which was a secret stash Han used for smuggling.
posted by Eddie Mars at 12:43 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm genuinely interested in what story approach Lucas wanted to take.
posted by mazola at 1:03 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Eddie Mars, maybe the Star Destroyer was in orbit on the other side of the planet, or something equally flimsy.
posted by infinitewindow at 1:05 PM on January 5, 2016

This would literally be the one incidence of that in all of aStar Wars - blockading spaceships are always directly overhead.

(See the general thing of space being about 5 miles wide)
posted by Artw at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you assume 99% of the inhabited planets in the galaxy are colonies with only a few settlements, most of which are fairly close to one another, it solves a shitload of problems.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:29 PM on January 5, 2016

I had assumed they did jump to hyperspace and it was the signature of the Falcon's famous hyperdrive that Han and Chewie traced (which is why they had to ask what planet it had been on).
posted by ckape at 1:47 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Falcon had a beacon on it, which would come on if the ship powered up.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:51 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

It did bother me that if they were on Han & Chewie's ship, evading rathtars and mobsters, trying to get to the Millenium Falcon - why couldn't Han figure out how to open the door? He ended up having to blast it with the bowcaster like they were on an enemy ship. I'm sure there's handwavy story about Rey mucking up the electrical (except when she needs to close a door instantly) but really.
posted by sweetmarie at 2:01 PM on January 5, 2016

Because Han knew that we saw Return of the Jedi and would like the call back.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:03 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

This would literally be the one incidence of that in all of aStar Wars - blockading spaceships are always directly overhead.

Except for the Death Star, which of course had to come into the correct position in its orbit to clear Yavin IV so it could destroy the Rebels' hidden fortr—

*wheezes, unable to breathe*

"I find your lack of suspension of disbelief disturbing."
posted by infinitewindow at 2:39 PM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

You prefer the Starkiller, which had to charge until it reached an allegorically appropriate moment so we could have the exact same countdown and Leia standing in the exact same Rebel control room looking worried and Jesus people the Starkiller thing was bad
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:45 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have come to think of Starkiller as the Star Wars equivalent of the V3 supergun.
posted by Artw at 2:49 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

the nerve of jj, putting allegories in my star wars
posted by entropicamericana at 2:55 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

All the backstory you're curious about from TFA.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:11 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

I wonder how they'll introduce Maz as force-sensitive in the next one.

If she suddenly force pulls a lightsaber and then starts hopping around with one like Yoda, I.. ok I'm not gonna like storm out of the theater, but I will be very cross.
posted by numaner at 3:16 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

She's a pirate, right? She could have a curved lightsaber blade.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:40 PM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

Maybe she could have a big jar of eyes.
posted by Artw at 3:44 PM on January 5, 2016

I read all the comments! Now I'm at the comment box!

I saw the movie at noon matinee on Sunday. Theatre was 90% packed. There was assigned seating, but we don't roll like that where I live (DC suburbs), so I was stuck in the front row, which was not ideal. Saw it in 3D, which I found a little blurry. I want to see it again in 2D from a good seat.

On Rey's costume - I'm someone who wears elbow-length gloves sometimes, and I could totally see Rey liking the range of motion that style provides, while still being warm on cool planets, and sun-blocking on hot planets. Folks in this thread have talked about her discipline, so it seems totally in character to stick to that affectation. I mean, Han wears his leather jacket; Chewie his bandolier; I think it makes sense. There's something about how sleeveless plus arm bands can make you feel powerful. I could be projecting just a tad, here.

One thing I pay attention to in movies, particularly action movies, is how the actors move. Nothing kills my suspension of disbelief more than watching long shots of stunt doubles move through their choreography gracefully, then get closeups of the main actors awkwardly swinging a sword. But it goes beyond that. I really loved just how Adam Driver made Ren walk and cut through space. It's different than how he moves on Girls. He doesn't move his arms a lot, and uses his shoulders to cut through the air.

I really hope that Rey and Finn stay platonic. I'd be fine with no romance in any of these new ones. The Han and Leia stuff was okay, but 6-11 year old me found it lackluster compared to the rest of the plot. And we won't even talk about Anakin/Padme.

On a more personal note, reading about all of your individual relationships with Stars Wars has me reflecting that the character I most identified with/admired was C-3PO. I am a pain in the ass know-it-all today. I was so jealous that he knew all those languages, and I liked how he took care of R2-D2. His dismantlement in Empire was a bit traumatic to me. Suddenly it makes sense why I've had this urge to cosplay Kushana from Nausicaa.
posted by frecklefaerie at 4:34 PM on January 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

I like how Rey runs. She looks like someone who taught herself how to run -- not un-athletic, but her own style. Daisy Ridley's ability to project Rey's intent at all moments is really uncanny generally.
posted by argybarg at 4:38 PM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

I totally agree. She's moves like she's full of power.
posted by frecklefaerie at 4:41 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jar Jar Blinks?
posted by Autumn Leaf at 4:49 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I really hope that Rey and Finn stay platonic.

I'm torn on this one. In Pacific Rim, the male and female leads didn't get together, which was a great change of pace. Having it occur between these two would also be good. But the actors seem to have such a chemistry, a relationship between their characters really seems like it could work well. Plus, this is a big budget Disney film, so it's hard to imagine romance not occuring.

Yeah, it could go either way and work well. The novelization of the book seemed to hint that they were attracted to each other, but only in small ways. Plus Rey and Poe met in the book and there was bit of a possible vibe there too. We'll know in two years!

The one thing I don't want is for the relationships to be a drawn out love triangle or a major story arc. Just let it happen if it's gonna happen.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:00 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, the kid liked it, but she's 9.
posted by Artw at 5:50 PM on January 5, 2016

Man, am I the only person who liked that? That was like my favorite part of the prequels, and the only time that I thought CGI was justifiable over MuppetYoda

Yeah, when the movie premiered I was legitimately all OH HELL YES during that part. Enough so that I saw the movie again that same day. But I haven't seen it again since. Hmm.
posted by zsazsa at 5:52 PM on January 5, 2016

In further "celebrity sidelines" news - Sergio Mendes, of all people, has paid homage to the new film by posting a photo from 1970 of a 28-year-old Harrison Ford, back when he was just "the carpenter who built my studio".

Harrison is a bit of a scruffy-looking nerd herder in the photo, but in a good way.

Funny to see Mendes' name come up. I've been thinking of him ever since we met Maz Kanata.
posted by Songdog at 6:21 PM on January 5, 2016

I'm genuinely interested in what story approach Lucas wanted to take.

STAR WARS

Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Following the defeat of
Emperor Palpatine and
the end of the evil galactic
Empire, Princess Leia Organa
and Jedi Knight Luke
Skywalker have announced
the formation of the New
Republic.

Hoping to restore peace and
prosperity to the galaxy,
they convene a special
session of the Senate.

Thirty years later, the
Senate is about to vote on
its first Galactic Budget, but
Luke Skywalker has fallen
asleep in the bathroom.
Desperate, Chancellor Organa
dispatches a trusted ally to
find Luke and ensure the
budget vote is successful....

[camera pans out of Luke's nose]
posted by Behemoth at 6:35 PM on January 5, 2016 [13 favorites]

See The Empire Strikes Back as a Silent Film — Precisely How George Lucas Imagined the Star Wars Films

See also.
posted by radwolf76 at 6:53 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kylo Ren writing to his mom after he gets to Starkilller Base, "Please send snacks."
posted by drezdn at 7:24 PM on January 5, 2016 [15 favorites]

Naw, Yoda lightsaber fights should have been Yoda's lightsaber floating in the air fighting on its own while he stood there with his eyes closed only occasionally stepping to the side to avoid a strike.

Agreed. His flipping and spinning was completely out of character.

Also I remember the stupid TV ads asking WHODAMAN? YODAMAN!

Ugh.

If he needed to be somewhat actiony, have him move like Pai Mei in Kill Bill Part 2.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:34 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

What Star Wars: The Force Awakens can teach us about modern evil

...In the end, Vader saw the light. His was a deathbed conversion straight out of central casting Victorian piety. So it’s a little odd that the Vatican wants Vader to be the permanent poster boy for evil. And likewise odd that it attacks Ren’s darkness for being so fake – not least because it was Ren who deliberately gutted his own father with a light sabre.

Because what the Vatican should have learned from its own master theologian of the dark side, St Augustine, is that all evil is a fake, an absence, a lack, a hole, an emptiness. Nothingness is its abiding characteristic...
posted by nubs at 7:34 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Agreed. His flipping and spinning was completely out of character.

Was it? Yoda had a sense for the theatrical, after all; remember his crazy-old-man act for Luke on Dagobah? I can allow for his acrobatics as being a side of him we just hadn't seen until then.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:39 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yoda also 'rap dances' if you use the special combination on the DVD.
posted by Mezentian at 7:41 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah, the new bigger biggest death star thing was dumb but I liked that they called it the Starkiller and hung a lampshade on it, that's how you gotta do it, okay? Okay.

"In retrospect, it was a bit premature to waste the name 'Star Destroyer' on big boats."
posted by straight at 8:39 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

Re: Star Destroyers, I wonder if in 1974, George Lucas was watching Space Battleship Yamato and leafing through a thesaurus.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 8:42 PM on January 5, 2016

Okay, here's my take on what was going on with Kylo Ren on the bridge.

He knows he needs to kill his father to really embrace the Dark Side, but he's not sure he can do it. When he holds out his lightsaber to Han and asks for help, he's telling himself it's a trick to lure him closer for the kill. But part of him is hoping Han will take the lightsaber and kill him, ending his struggle with the Light/Dark Side.

But deeper down, it's a sham. Because if Han moves to take the saber and kill his son, Kylo Ren will think, "Aha! He never really loved me," and strike his father in anger. But if Han doesn't try to kill him, he can think, "Pathetic excuse for a father! You're too weak to even do this much to save me!" and use that scorn to kill his father.

I'm not sure we even know which of these Han chose, but Kylo Ren knew.
posted by straight at 8:57 PM on January 5, 2016 [14 favorites]

> Naw, Yoda lightsaber fights should have been Yoda's lightsaber floating in the air fighting on its own while he stood there with his eyes closed only occasionally stepping to the side to avoid a strike.
posted by ckape at 7:08 PM on January 5 [+] [!]

That's a lot closer to right than the flying frog-cat stuff that Lucas gave us, but I think a force-user as wise and powerful as Yoda wouldn't ever get in a lightsaber fight at all; he'd find a peaceful way to shut down or win over adversaries instead.

Recall Luke's failure at the cave — his bad decision to bring his saber instead of going in unarmed — and also recall how Yoda said "wars not make one great" in response to Luke saying he was looking for a "great warrior named Yoda."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:00 PM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

> But deeper down, it's a sham. Because if Han moves to take the saber and kill his son, Kylo Ren will think, "Aha! He never really loved me," and strike his father in anger. But if Han doesn't try to kill him, he can think, "Pathetic excuse for a father! You're too weak to even do this much to save me!" and use that scorn to kill his father.

I'm not sure we even know which of these Han chose, but Kylo Ren knew.
posted by straight at 8:57 PM on January 5 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]

There is something realistically reddity to this logic. And like you just know that ~~Rilo Kiley~~ Kylo Ren is a total redditor.

This is why I want the climax of the last movie of the new trilogy to feature Rey, Second Most Powerful Force User the Galaxy has Ever Seen, sliding toward the dark side and trying to pull the exact same stunt on Leia, and why I want Leia¹ to then force-grab Rey's saber away from her and thereby short-circuit all of that bad reasoning.

1: (who is of course The Most Powerful Force User the Galaxy has Ever Seen, but she doesn't make a big deal about it because she is just that cool.)
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:10 PM on January 5, 2016

Regarding Rey's strength in using The Force:

Yoda keeps telling Luke that size matters not. His teaching is a mixture of various things: Jesus responding to the request of his disciples to "Increase our faith!" by saying "If you even had faith the size of a tiny mustard seed, you could tell a mountain to move and it would." Also, the Buddhist idea (or at least the westernized picture of it) that all the training and meditation is just an attempt to get your mind in the right place where it can take a very simple step to enlightenment.

I think Yoda would say using The Force is simple and effortless. You don't need to build up your muscles, or fill your head with knowledge. You have to just do it. Turn off the targeting computer and trust your feelings. All that weird training Yoda has Luke do is just various attempts to get him to wake up.

And that's what happens to Rey. She has that moment of understanding and it doesn't matter that she isn't trained because training isn't what makes someone strong in The Force. Maybe it's because of her parentage, maybe Kylo Ren accidentally triggers something, or maybe just The Force Awakens her.
posted by straight at 9:17 PM on January 5, 2016 [11 favorites]

I should probably sign up for that PredictionBook thing. My predictions: 1) Buddhism... in... spaaaaaace. IOW, it's about finding a middle way, not about eliminating or shunning either Light or Dark. 2) It's a Skywalker family dynasty epic, and always has been. 3) Kylo Ren, whether he goes Dark side or Light side, is a more nuanced character than many people are giving him credit for.
posted by Lexica at 9:26 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Okay fine I'll defend Yoda using his lightsaber too, why not. At the start of his confrontation with Dooku he uses everything BUT his lightsaber. Dooku is able to counter him, whips out his own saber, and makes his little quip about settling things with lightsaber skills. Clearly he thinks he's got the upper hand there. When Yoda starts flipping around it's as a last resort, a necessity to meet Dooku on his own terms. Yeah it's still cheesy, but they made it clear that saber fighting is definitely not Yoda's go-to method of solving martial problems.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:05 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

but they made it clear that saber fighting is definitely not Yoda's go-to method of solving martial problems.

I don't think they did.
Weren't there some lines in AOTC? I Think where people keep mentioning how good Yoda is at light sabering?
Like Obi Wan saying to Anakin about being as good as Yoda, slightly mockingly?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:36 AM on January 6, 2016

I've been pondering over the riddle of Rey's parentage for a while. Its obvious that the film is trying to make it something important, a big question that is going to be answered in a climatic scene. But that is perhaps that biggest reason why Rey is not a Skywalker. Not that it is what the viewers expect, but that if so, it would be what Rey herself would expect too.

She's clearly a fan of the events of the OT and Luke Skywalker is a legendary figure to her. She just discovered that she can use the Force. The only other Force users she knows of in existence are Luke and his nephew. If she has no idea who her parents are, then for sure she's secretly thinking that Luke is probably her father. That might be the first question she blurts out when she sees him, "are you my dad?!" Which doesn't really work out to be a very climatical moment. Nor is "Rey, I am your dad." "Oh, yeah, I figured." It's not like Rey is dumb and wouldn't have thought this by now.

So what would be more interesting, would be if Episode 8 made Rey-thinking-she's-a-Skywalker a thing, where for half the movie she's thinking she's Luke's daughter, and maybe other people saying so as well. And for the big reveal, Luke will say "Rey, I am not your father." as an inversion of the original trilogy.

This also sort of plays into how Kylo Ren is cosplaying Darth Vader; basically the main characters are pretending to be the main characters of the original trilogy. The point at which both characters really grow, is when they become their own person, and those will be the pivotal moments in Episode 8.

Or maybe I've just been eating too many beans lately.
posted by destrius at 2:56 AM on January 6, 2016 [17 favorites]

I don't think they did.

I'm pretty sure they did.
They do make quips about Yoda's prowess with the civilized weapon, but I read them (now, and then) as winks at the audience: how is Lucas going to make Yoda a bad-ass? (He tries spinning, that's a good trick), but I've always read the text as Yoda being above all that jumping about nonsense.

But when he brings it, he brings the thunder, not like Kit Fisto, who died like a chump (despite being totally awesome in everything that isn't an actual movie).

Can I just mention how amazing Mace Windu in Gennedy's Clone Wars? That one episode on Dantooine pretty much ruined all other Jedi for me.
posted by Mezentian at 3:23 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yoda also 'rap dances' if you use the special combination on the DVD.

I can definitely say that 'rap dancing' (whatever that means) is not something I need to see Yoda do.
posted by Fleebnork at 4:02 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Are you so sure? Even with Stormtroopers shaking their booties in the background?
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:37 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Okay.
We're going there.

Kinect Star Wars: Galactic Dance Off - I'm Han Solo(Extended) + Going Somewhere, Solo? Achievement.

This?
This is Star Wars' lowest point.
posted by Mezentian at 5:09 AM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

How about a switch up of the big Empire Spoiler.

Luke: No. I am not your father.
Rey: No... that's not true! That's impossible!
Luke: Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
Rey: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOO!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:11 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

That's a lot closer to right than the flying frog-cat stuff that Lucas gave us, but I think a force-user as wise and powerful as Yoda wouldn't ever get in a lightsaber fight at all; he'd find a peaceful way to shut down or win over adversaries instead.

Which is why I also feel strongly that, if Yoda were reluctantly to draw his lightsaber for some reason (a particularly powerful Dark Jedi forcing his hand is a good enough excuse), he'd fight more like a tai chi or aikido master than anything else. Evading blows as much as possible (and, yeah, he can indulge in a few Force-powered jumps in the process) rather than attacking, moving the venue of the fight until he has an advantage, and using saber-locks tactically to get his opponent to overcommit so he can use his own considerable aptitude at moving stuff with the Force to pull his opponent entirely off balance.

Instead, we got a cat jumping around the room and, like everybody else in the god awful prequels, always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:25 AM on January 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

Both times I watched the opening sequence, I was reminded of other movies about the D-Day invasion of Normandy in two specific ways.

First, the Stormtroopers on their shuttles, in the rattling darkness as they descend to the firefight, reminded me of the American paratroopers on C-47 Dakotas who would be the first Allied troops to engage the enemy.
Then when those shuttles touch down, their front end drops like the Higgins boats that carried U.S. Army infantry onto the beaches.

This was probably intentional: it unconsciously set me up to be sympathetic to the individual troops, so when Finn appears as a character, I was ready to give him a chance.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:37 AM on January 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

Similarly, I loved that shot of the TIE Fighters against the setting sun, looking all Apocalypse Now. Absolutely gorgeous.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:05 AM on January 6, 2016 [15 favorites]

Both times I watched the opening sequence, I was reminded of other movies about the D-Day invasion of Normandy

Yes, agreed. The second viewing was harder for me, and I cried during this sequence: it was like some weird return to being a little kid, and seeing snippets of coverage of the war in Vietnam, and at the same time, I also felt the filter of a bunch of war movies/vintage newsreels. It went straight to my tear ducts, and Finn's response made sense to me, at least emotionally. Just an anguished "NO" over all of the killing.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:07 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Faint of Butt: "Similarly, I loved that shot of the TIE Fighters against the setting sun, looking all Apocalypse Now. Absolutely gorgeous."

Apocalypse Now was originally Lucas' project before he handed over to Coppola so it might have been a shout back to that.
posted by octothorpe at 7:02 AM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

What if Kylo Ren loved his grandmother too?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:09 AM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

What if Kylo Ren loved his grandmother too?

That was my favorite Sting song.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:09 AM on January 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Are you so sure? Even with Stormtroopers shaking their booties in the background?

Wow, yeah that's really lame. Like watching Jar Jar step in poop.

On the other hand, I enjoyed the hell out of this.

They might seem similar at first, both involve dancing. But the Yoda thing is like your dad trying to be cool and use slang he's unfamiliar with.

Kinect Star Wars: Galactic Dance Off - I'm Han Solo(Extended) + Going Somewhere, Solo? Achievement. yt

This?
This is Star Wars' lowest point.

It's so wizard. Yippee!
posted by Fleebnork at 8:11 AM on January 6, 2016

Jizz!
posted by Artw at 8:15 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

me: Both times I watched the opening sequence, I was reminded of other movies about the D-Day invasion of Normandy.

More specifically: I kept hearing Tom Hanks say "I'll see you on the beach!" in Saving Private Ryan [SLYT], and picturing the paratroopers in the plane [SLYT](starting around 2:38) from Band of Brothers.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:22 AM on January 6, 2016

This?
This is Star Wars' lowest point.

The lowest point is a lot more Itchy than that.
posted by radwolf76 at 8:30 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Similarly, I loved that shot of the TIE Fighters against the setting sun, looking all Apocalypse Now. Absolutely gorgeous.

That was such a great shot that it kind of took me out of the movie for a second.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:33 AM on January 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

If Luke was her father she wouldn't be such a fanboy

Actually, if she's lived for years knowing Luke was her father in a place where nobody would believe her, being a Luke fan might be the next best thing, a way to talk about Luke and find out if anyone else knows any news about him.

I can see her not even wanting to tell Han. What if he doesn't believe her?
posted by straight at 8:48 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I knew that was the holographic chess board without them having to turn it on and have the shot linger on it a bit when they weren't even going to play

But the look on Chewie's face when seeing the game briefly distracts him from the pain of his wound is adorable.

That's the thing. The movie mostly doesn't just make a reference and mug for a beat, expecting us to applaud or laugh from mere recognition. They usually try to actually use these callbacks to set up an actual joke or character moment. It's not just, Hey, remember this?
posted by straight at 9:04 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

She's a Palpatine.

Was humming to myself today when I noticed something:

The Emporer's Theme.
Rey's Theme.

Also, can't help but hear 'Rey Palpatine' in Rey's theme.

It wouldn't surprise me if John Williams hasn't already planned out the score for the entire trilogy. Disney would want some contingency in case he pegged it before the series wraps.
posted by popcassady at 9:07 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder how many times in his composing career Williams has had an idea and thought, "Hmm. I'll save that in case they ever make another Star Wars movie."
posted by straight at 9:16 AM on January 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

Yes, but also consider this:

Luke's Force theme + Rey's theme

Now, whether this indicates that they're related, or that they complete (balance) each other in some way... who can say. John Williams is certainly great at what he does.
posted by miratime at 9:28 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Was humming to myself today when I noticed something:

You know, listening to this, the score is much stronger as a standalone. I think I was originally lukewarm (ha!) to it because it just didn't seem 'synced'/integrated to the movie in the way previous scores were. I'm wondering if this has anything to do to with Abrams editing style* (i.e. changing things up to the last minute) preventing Williams to really punctuate moments.

----
* From the article:

But George Lucas and J.J. Abrams have very different working styles. With George, who grew up with thirty-five millimeter film… George’s editing was constructed almost like Hitchcock. I mean the edit that I received was the edit we scored.

In the case of J.J. Abrams, he is a young man, still under 50, and he has grown up with Pro Tools and Avid and all the rest of these electronic and technological aids that people have now. And so his editing process is very different. We were making changes up till the very last minute, and because of this, we recorded with the orchestra sporadically through the months of June to November, which we never did with George. With George we always recorded the scores in seven or eight days running. So the process was markedly different in that respect. J.J. made, with great facility, a lot of changes all the time and they were always improvements. And we were glad to see them because he knew what he shot; we did not. We only knew what we had seen.

posted by mazola at 9:32 AM on January 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

That's the thing. The movie mostly doesn't just make a reference and mug for a beat, expecting us to applaud or laugh from mere recognition. They usually try to actually use these callbacks to set up an actual joke or character moment. It's not just, Hey, remember this?

It's like when you see the Ark of the Covenant in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull only instead of just holding the shot so the audience can "get it," they make finding the Ark again the whole third act of the movie!
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:37 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Do you think maybe the nuclear test scene from Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was foreshadowing of Han Solo's fridging in this movie?
posted by wabbittwax at 9:41 AM on January 6, 2016

Okay.
We're going there.

Kinect Star Wars: Galactic Dance Off - I'm Han Solo(Extended) + Going Somewhere, Solo? Achievement. yt

This?
This is Star Wars' lowest point.

Wow... that was something else. The song lyrics actually made sense, though, and you gotta give it up for those dance move names: "Kessel Run", "Han Shot First", "Trash Compactor". The music itself is terrible with the autotuning and the generic pop synths and OMG WHY AM I REVIEWING THIS?

I gotta put on some Fett's Vette to wash my ears out.
posted by numaner at 9:44 AM on January 6, 2016

I was really torn on this movie - half fuck yeah, half what the fuck.

Biggest frustration was the way they handled the First Order/Resistance. I had to keep from blurting out in the theater, but you don't get to call yourself "the Resistance" if you are basically the government. Even if you're the CIA of that government. I told my husband, "Are they just the Resistance so they can once again be the scrappy underdogs even though they won?" It took me out of the movie so hard.

Then, they make the First Order cartoonishly evil in aesthetic, even when it doesn't make sense. Like, FN-2187, with no nickname at all? That's a name chosen to show how dehumanizing the First Order is. But that's nine fucking syllables. You don't have a nine syllable name in a military for convenience.

Then Finn has someone he cares about , who dies, which must imply he has friends and companionship. Then you have him shoot his brothers without a qualm, just so he can get away from...shooting innocent people without a qualm?
posted by corb at 9:49 AM on January 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

[Williams on editing style and scoring]

That's an odd comment I can only assume is taken out of context or without clarification because Lucas was editing the prequels up to the literal last minute and a bunch of cues had to be cut and pasted while JJ had the film locked quite a bit before the release.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:51 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

but you don't get to call yourself "the Resistance" if you are basically the government.

I play Ingress, so I'm used to that. (Though to be fair, the Resistance in Ingress isn't actually the government, they're just the ones who heard someone say "We're from the government, we're here to help." and responded by going "Golly-gee! Can we help too?")
posted by radwolf76 at 10:22 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Then you have him shoot his brothers without a qualm, just so he can get away from...shooting innocent people without a qualm?

There's a difference between being ordered to execute prisoners and fighting back against people who are actively trying to kill you.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:23 AM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

That's an odd comment I can only assume is taken out of context or without clarification because Lucas was editing the prequels up to the literal last minute and a bunch of cues had to be cut and pasted while JJ had the film locked quite a bit before the release.

Maybe Williams blotted the prequels out his mind, too.
posted by mazola at 10:27 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

while JJ had the film locked quite a bit before the release.

If you watch this clip, you'll see Abrams giving Williams notes about revised cuts during the recording session ('can you have them play that motive a few more times before moving on? I think that scene might be a little bit longer'-type stuff). That's pretty last-minute for changes like that, especially considering how Williams records, conducting with the film playing behind the orchestra to time the music as precisely as possible to the action.

(Also, I prefer this version of Fett's Vett.)
posted by LooseFilter at 10:28 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

But, I mean, at least he let Williams himself adjust it instead of slicing and dicing his work? TPM was recorded over a week starting February 10, 1999... I can't find a source at the moment, but I know Lucas was editing well into May.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:41 AM on January 6, 2016

Re: Yoda flips: here is some undistilled nerdery. Yoda is a master of Form IV saber combat, Ataru, which is characterized by heavy Force assistance to the physical form and acrobatic maneuvers employed to strike at odd angles and unpredictable patterns. All three saber users employ Ataru at some stage in The Phantom Menace. The idea is that the Ataru master embraces their entire body as the weapon, not just the lightsaber itself, and the body moves according to the Force flowing through it. So when Yoda is flipping around, he's expressing the physical motion of the Force all around him and his opponent, and because Yoda is so strong in the Force, he's doing it a lot faster and more seamlessly than other Jedi might.

Well, that used to be the canonical explanation, anyway.
posted by Errant at 10:50 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

at least he let Williams himself adjust it instead of slicing and dicing his work

Most definitely. I think the TFA score is outstanding, on its own and in the context of the film.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:57 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

He did seem to spend a lot of time training Luke to do acrobatic stuff and float things, didn't he?
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:58 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

A little older, but since we're discussing her toys: Daisy Ridley evaluates 8 of her Star Wars toys
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:08 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Look, all I'm saying is Yoda could have been more like this and less like this.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:14 AM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

You know the guy in the first clip is doing a lot of jumping and flipping around, right?
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:17 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Biggest frustration was the way they handled the First Order/Resistance. I had to keep from blurting out in the theater, but you don't get to call yourself "the Resistance" if you are basically the government. Even if you're the CIA of that government. I told my husband, "Are they just the Resistance so they can once again be the scrappy underdogs even though they won?" It took me out of the movie so hard.

Nah, this makes sense to me. The victory at Endor brought down the Empire as a galaxy-wide government, but the Rebellion was too small/ragtag to form its own galactic government. As such, it formed the New Republic in the systems that were most sympathetic to their cause/easiest to defend, while various Imperial leaders gradually consolidated power over the systems they could still control. In those systems a resistance was formed, aided by the Republic insofar as they could.¹ Because space is big and space is dark,² even 30 years after the death of the Emperor the Imperial remnant³ still holds significant territory.

Because Leia is just that cool,⁴ instead of just being President or whatever of the Republic, she's gone to where she's most needed and as such has taken a leadership role in the Resistance.

1: Think of their aid as equivalent to Allied support for the French resistance during World War 2 — something that the film was consciously nodding toward by naming the Resistance the Resistance and making the First Order even more Nazis in Space than the original Empire was.
2: it's hard to find a place to park / burma shave.
3: Unfortunately not led by Admiral Thrawn, but oh well.
4: If you can't tell, TFA has made me realize that I'm an abject Leia fanboy. If Leia were a real person on Earth in the 1930s, she would have gotten herself to Spain ASAP. But she's a fictional person in a galaxy long ago and far away, and so she's in First Order territory leading the Resistance.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:33 AM on January 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

while various Imperial leaders
3: Unfortunately not led by Admiral Thrawn, but oh well.

I WANT A HYPERCOMPOTENT FLEET LEADER AND MASSIVE FLEET BATTLES, DAMMIT!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:42 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

There were about a million different ways the fall of the Empire could have shaken out into an interesting political scenario in the 30+ years post RotJ, and "the Resistance is exactly like the Rebellion in ANH, only even smaller" is probably the least interesting one they could have chosen.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:47 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

I dunno, I'm interested by it just because there's now a bunch of characters who are second-generation Rebellion/Resistance. most notably Poe, who can be accurately described as a red squadron diaper baby.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:51 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think they may be shying away from an in depth analysis of space politics as subject material, for some reason.
posted by Artw at 11:52 AM on January 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

oh my god I've been waiting my whole life to make that pun.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:52 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

The characters (and the actors playing them) are great; it's the plot and backstory I'm having problems with.

I think they may be shying away from an in depth analysis of space politics as subject material, for some reason.

And yet they came up with one that pretty much requires analysis to make sense of. Even "guess what, the Empire is still in power" would have accomplished the same goals without asking you to figure out why the standing government and the Resistance are on the same side, but not really working together openly.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:58 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Finally saw it, and one thing that really bothered me, besides the lazy second half of the movie, was that we are shown something the size of the DeathPlanet, complete with its own atmosphere and ecosystem, and yet when the characters are on it, it feels like it is only about 2 or 3 city blocks in size. If the ~~exhaust vent~~ thermal oscillator is NYC, and you have a planet sized base, odds are pretty good that Ren & Rey might be in Wyoming or China or even freaking Connecticut.

Also, the whole "it shoots through hyperspace to destroy planets in other systems which you can totally see destroyed when you look up at the sky" thing. Abrams did something like that with Vulcan in the Star Trek movie as well.

I guess what I am saying is J.J. Abrams is bad at scale and size.
posted by fings at 11:59 AM on January 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

There were about a million different ways the fall of the Empire could have shaken out into an interesting political scenario in the 30+ years post RotJ, and "the Resistance is exactly like the Rebellion in ANH, only even smaller" is probably the least interesting one they could have chosen.

In the official novel, the Republic government has been infiltrated by members of the First Order, so there's been a lot of political moves these double agents have done to stall the Republic making any major moves against the Order. Hence Leia leading/forming the resistance. And she's a marked person, where if she attends any official Republic function, she'll probably be assassinated.

In fact, Poe leads a raid to steal the ship of one of those double agents, who's a major senator in the Republic. It's a tricky thing, as they only have a few minutes to board the ship before the senator and his staff try to dump/erase all information they have on board and before a rescue party arrives from the Republic. So it's a very hush hush, if you're found, we don't know you sort of mission, you have to pretend you're a smuggler.

This turned out not to be a huge problem, because a bigger problem arose: the Senator calls in the First Order, heh. But Poe and his crew managed to do the deed and one of the pieces of information they get is that Lars what's his name has the final piece of the map to Skywalker. So that's how Poe ends up meeting and talking to that guy in the beginning of the TFA.

All this is to say that there is an interesting take on the Resistance, but it's buried in back story.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:01 PM on January 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Eh, the crawl tells you everything you need to know for the movie. Stuff you don't need to know for the movie (like concerns raised by tie-ins to other movies) can happily sit elsewhere.
posted by Artw at 12:09 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am kind of interested in all this cool stuff that they are doing in the book, but if you don't show it in the movie, it doesn't make the movie any better.
posted by corb at 12:14 PM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

I say this as a huge fan of the EU pre- and post-Disney buyout, as someone who enjoyed the movie, and as someone who's looking forward to reading the novel: if we have to refer to sources outside the film itself to make sense of the film, that's, in itself, a worthwhile criticism to be leveled at the film.

Actually, I misspoke, the Poe story I mentioned is in a book called Before the Awakening, which has a story about each of the 3 leads. The official book of the movie has a few bits not seen in the movie, but it's mostly a straight novelization.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:15 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

yeah, my first sigh of relief while watching this movie was when I realized that the crawl actually made sense. "There are BAD GUYS over there and GOOD GUYS over here. the BAD GUYS and the GOOD GUYS are both looking for LUKE SKYWALKER (hey you know that guy!)" is enough info needed for me to get into the movie.

I mean yeah obviously if the prequels were actually star wars movies instead of... whatever they were... I would have had higher standards for this one. but it was enough for me. the details of the resistance/republic relationship were sketchy enough for me to fill them in however I wanted, but also consistent enough for me to fill them in however I wanted, and with the backstory thus taken care my brain was free to flood my system with dopamine derived from seeing Leia! Acting like Leia! And Chewie! Acting like Chewie! And Han! Acting like Han! And new people as cool as Leia and Chewie and Han! Squee!
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:17 PM on January 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm going to have to reuse something said above:

Fanfare: Though maybe the writers are right and it doesn't bug people the way it bugs me.
posted by numaner at 12:22 PM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

okay I need to back away from this thread now, because the way I relate to TFA, if left unchecked, leads directly to writing fanfiction where General Organa and Imperator Furiosa team up to drive a war rig across Space Australia. and no one wants that.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:22 PM on January 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

I...I do. I really, really do.
posted by cooker girl at 12:30 PM on January 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

I am kind of interested in all this cool stuff that they are doing in the book, but if you don't show it in the movie, it doesn't make the movie any better

It depends on your outlook. Disney has clearly decided to put various backstories in a couple of books and/or other media, so it can be fun or annoying. I like to think of the tie-ins as hyperlinks, so yeah if you were interested in the backstory of that human looking woman with the big alien in Maz's bar, then yeah, there's a story for that. It just depends on how interested one is. At $2 US for a Kindle short story, that's pretty reasonable, IMO.

okay I need to back away from this thread now, because the way I relate to TFA, if left unchecked, leads directly to writing fanfiction where General Organa and Imperator Furiosa team up to drive a war rig across Space Australia. and no one wants that.

It's the internet. There are several someones who want that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:31 PM on January 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

This is how we ended up with horseshit like IG-88 uploading his droid brain into the second Death Star.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:37 PM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

okay I need to back away from this thread now, because the way I relate to TFA, if left unchecked, leads directly to writing fanfiction where General Organa and Imperator Furiosa team up to drive a war rig across Space Australia. and no one wants that.

occasionally aided by not-quite-dead Clara and ~~Ashildr~~ Me in their Diner TARDIS
posted by numaner at 1:04 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Another good thing about the novelization is that you get to see more of Leia and her various thoughts and actions that illustrate just how awesome of a leader she is.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:07 PM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Brandon, you're the single biggest reason now as to why I'm probably going to end up reading the novelization (AND I NEVER READ THE NOVELIZATION OF ANYTHING). Seriously, I was a super major Star Wars nerd growing up and had every EU book from Zahn on up, until I moved to another country, and I never read the Star Wars novelization.

I do think the Resistance is justified in that it operates, presumably, in First Order "territory" and so is a resisting force against the power that be which generally controls the turf.
posted by Atreides at 1:15 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Heck, if the remnants of the Empire only control one remaining planet, that planet would probably have a Resistance movement, and you can bet Leia would be helping them any way she could.
posted by straight at 1:56 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Brandon, you're the single biggest reason now as to why I'm probably going to end up reading the novelization (AND I NEVER READ THE NOVELIZATION OF ANYTHING).

Cool!

They are decent reads (I recommend Before The Awakening, which also has a lot of Leia in Poe's story) and satisfied my inch for learning more about this universe. I wasn't too happy with the film at first and sort of felt like a freak for feeling it didn't live up to the promise of the trailers. But talking about in this threads helped me pinpoint what really destroyed the movie for me (starkiller base) while I still loved the new characters and their arcs. So reading more about them is fun.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:57 PM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Faint of Butt, in "The Art of Star Wars" coffee-table book (which my husband picked up at Costco over the weekend) they used concept art of the TIEs flying out of the sunset and said basically it was JJ's concept and they straight up nicked it from Apocalypse Now.

so, yeah.

There's A TON of backstory in the novelization and art book that never made it onscreen.
posted by lonefrontranger at 2:14 PM on January 6, 2016

I personally think this is a feature, not a bug
posted by lonefrontranger at 2:15 PM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

oh, and...

political exposition (which THANK GOD they did not go into in any detail during the film) - canon backstory from several various sources: 30 years along, the New Republic has stagnated and become permeated with New Order sympathizing senate members. It's the same old wealthy, corrupt, species-ist crew that brought down democracy in the first place. And, much like present-day politics, the ~~neo-fascists~~ First Order is both considerably stronger and has a ton more support in the Senate than the progressive faction would like. But their hands are tied by political niceties and the Senate is insisting on only the most bland sort of wrist-slaps and sanctions against them while things merrily go to hell all around... all of which this state of affairs arguably exists in the present-day developed world (I choose to think of Starkiller Base as an allegory for current day military boondoggles *cough*F35program*cough*...)

anyway General Organa, despairing of any meaningful progress against the First Order threat, which the Senate does not perceive as real, right up until the death ray strikes (climate change?! probably a bit heavy-handed, but okay), creates a black ops faction working strictly off the record and THAT is where the Resistance comes in. In one of the accompanying side stories, Poe Dameron is straight up told "here's a mission, it's exceedingly dangerous and probably hopeless, and oh by the way in the unlikely event that you're actually successful, you can never be officially recognized...."

et cetera.
posted by lonefrontranger at 2:33 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

That sounds interesting, should read that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:57 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

You know the guy in the first clip is doing a lot of jumping and flipping around, right?

You're right, using obvious martial art technique is exactly the same thing as behaving like a spastic spinning top.
posted by Fleebnork at 3:16 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Those aren't the same at all!
posted by mazola at 3:21 PM on January 6, 2016

HAMBURGER
posted by Fleebnork at 3:31 PM on January 6, 2016

Don't try changing the topic!
posted by mazola at 3:32 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

>Poe Dameron is straight up told "here's a mission, it's exceedingly dangerous and probably hopeless, and oh by the way in the unlikely event that you're actually successful, you can never be officially recognized...."

Man though Poe is a guy you can really trust to leave no swash unbuckled, isn't he?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:07 PM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

Saw the film last night, I liked it except for the lack of quiet bits in the pacing and also the Rebellion's mysterious inability to place a section of a map that covers a good 1/18th of the galaxy.

Now I'm going to reread Brian Daley's The Han Solo Adventures which starts with Chewie hitting an all-day spa and hairdressers.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:20 PM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

eh the covert ops mission came on the heels of he and his crew spending (implied) months on end kicking their heels on a boring-ass routine trade route security / escort detail... Poe and his squadron glom onto some shady potential First Order sanction / blockade running business and get straight up told by their CO to fuhgeddaboutit, etc. and when they get all starry-eyed and go BUT BUT IT'S WRONG Poe is told to STFU and that he's facing court martial if he continues to go off script.

Then they get transferred out to this dusty little backwater hellhole and figure they've scuttled their careers, and are facing an eternity of boring escort drone duty, at which point they're taken under General Organa's wing (Leia) and things get... interesting.

also it's explicitly mentioned in the recent novels (either Before the Awakening or one of the 2 others I recently read) that during the reign of the Galactic Empire, a shitload of people just... did not have kids, for a host of reasons including but not limited to poverty, indenture, and just not wanting to bring about a family under a shitty regime. There was a huuuuuuge galactic baby boom after the Battle of Endor and Poe Dameron was one of these kids; born within 12 months of Palpatine's overthrow.
posted by lonefrontranger at 4:31 PM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Now I'm going to reread Brian Daley's The Han Solo Adventures which starts with Chewie hitting an all-day spa and hairdressers.

It really doesn't.
I got through the first book in December and... it's no Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

Also, Rey is getting added to the Monopoly game.

It's almost as if they predicted the backlash and used it as a chance to sell more stuff.
posted by Mezentian at 5:13 PM on January 6, 2016

Now I'm going to reread Brian Daley's The Han Solo Adventures

I have no real allegiance to the "Legends" EU, having only read the Thrawn Trilogy, some of the short story collections (Tales from Mos Eisley, etc) and A.C. Crispin's Han Solo trilogy - which is actually really great. So while I am looking forward to a Young Han Solo film, I still have a soft spot for Crispin's books.
posted by crossoverman at 5:39 PM on January 6, 2016

The latest part of this conversation really has me convinced that a phenomenon I've noticed for a while is really becoming manifest: the boundaries between modes of media are blurred and porous and distinctions are increasingly losing meaning--I'm not sure considering a thing a "movie" or a "TV show" will be very meaningful much longer.

I think these serialized, interconnected, multi-media stories and properties and universes are not so much a big-time fad with limited shelf life as the new rule, because the medium is the message. The massive tie-ins, series, etc. are not new behaviors, they're just much more powerfully enabled because of our technologies and their interconnectivity. So it's not that one needs to read the 'before' stories for the movie to make sense, it's that the movie is deliberately only part of the larger story. It makes sense on its own, yes, but there's obviously a lot more story than is told onscreen, and now I can walk out of the theater and pick up or download a book or comic and continue the story. Then I can go watch Rebels, and etc.

Where Disney is being exceptionally smart about all this is in--to all appearances so far--letting the creatives lead the way. (n.b.: I am in the 'picking Rian Johnson is a very good sign of intentions' camp.)
posted by LooseFilter at 6:04 PM on January 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Geek male identity has been reduced to Kylo Ren thrashing a computer with his sword - this needs to change
posted by Artw at 6:14 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, I guess a 2100+ comment thread is what I deserve for not getting to see the movie until today, but such is life.

I choked up when "A long time ago…" came up, even without the Fox fanfare. I loved every minute of the picture. I can't decide which character is my favorite, but I'm leaning towards Rey.

Despite not trusting Abrams, I thought the direction was good. There weren't any moments where I was left thinking, "Hello? Remember us? The Audience? Maybe we'd like to see what's happening?" There were a couple of very nice shots.

I'm proud of the Internet for not spoiling the movie, even if you could see it coming all the way up 5th Avenue.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:35 PM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Male geek identity is not gamergate. Male geeks are among the most excited people in the world about this movie and about Rey. The same male geeks were crazy about Leia being a badass with a blaster when they first saw A New Hope. Loving this movie is part of the male geek identity and the male geek demand for it over decades is a big part of why it was made. I wish people could get over hating male geeks. It's difficult to forge a positive identity when people won't let you.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:43 PM on January 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

Anyone who is just now reading this thread for the first time.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:08 PM on January 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

Now I'm going to reread Brian Daley's The Han Solo Adventures

When I finish the Star Wars books I have from the library, I may do the same thing!
posted by immlass at 7:15 PM on January 6, 2016

Geek male identity has been reduced to Kylo Ren thrashing a computer with his sword - this needs to change

Wow. That link is such a word-salad of buzzwords.
At least they explained the The Red Pill metaphor.

But could they not spell Poe Dameron's name correctly?
posted by Mezentian at 7:45 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I really love Austin Walker. Space Opera Millennials and Their Grand Narratives
posted by kmz at 7:55 PM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I thought the naming scene was sweet. Poe picked something similar enough to what the guy had been called so he had less culture shock about it, yet it's a friendly name. And if Finn hadn't liked it, he could have said, "Nah, I'd rather go by Bob" instead, because ain't no name change Nazi's around to bitch about it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:19 PM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Nah, I'd rather go by Bob" instead, because ain't no name change Nazi's around to bitch about it.

Except on the Internet, obviously.
posted by Mezentian at 3:34 AM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Man though Poe is a guy you can really trust to leave no swash unbuckled, isn't he?

Poe Dameron: Smoke him a kipper, he'll be back for breakfast.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:34 AM on January 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

Wow. I picked a good time to find out what goes on in FanFare… it has taken me three days to work my way through this thread. Incredible stuff!

I grew up with and loved the Original Trilogy. I wouldn’t call myself a superfan, but I didn’t realise how much Star Wars meant to me until the first TFA trailer brought tears of wonder and excitement to my eyes… every time I watched it. I’m 42, and it made me feel like a 6-year old again! It’s been a very very long time since the mere prospect of a film had that effect on me. If ever.

Anyway, I’ve seen the film twice now: first time in standard 2D with my 5-year-old son, second time alone on IMAX 3D. The first time was much more fun… I primed him with the OT several months in advance — he absolutely loved them, especially Vader. We made a big thing of going to watch TFA at the cinema — fancy seats, big popcorn, giant drink in a special cup, all the good stuff — and it turned out to be the most fun I’ve ever had in a cinema. He was so engaged and excited about everything, shouting out questions and comments throughout the whole thing: “Who’s that guy?! Is it Luke Skywalker?” (when everything goes quiet and Rey first appears on screen), then “Here come the good guys!” (when the X-wings arrived to confront the baddies on Takodana). His sheer, unbridled enthusiasm made me practically pop with pride. Overall, my experience was just love, love, love this film. Even if we did miss a few minutes here and there because that giant cup of lemonade went through him quite fast…

I went back for a selfish second viewing which was still great but not quite as much fun. IMAX was bigger and louder and therefore good, but it didn’t blow my socks off. Rather than the all-encompassing emotional rollercoaster effect I was expecting, it was a more detached experience… which was fine. Did anyone else notice how much makeup you could see on Solo’s face? They must have been putting the stuff on with a trowel. The 3D was pointless. I wish 3D would bugger off.

I can’t wait to watch the next two films with my boy :-) I need more Rey’s awesomeness, more of Finn’s exuberance, and much, much more Falcon action (I just finished rebuilding the Falcon LEGO kit we inherited, to make sure it was all *right*).

I couldn’t care less about the various plot holes / scale problems / “I hate JJ” nitpicking I’ve read upthread, but it was fascinating to se all the beanplating. This film has made me very, very happy indeed, and I want more.

One thing is bothering me slightly, hopefully someone can explain: towards the end of the Starkiller finale, why do Rey and Finn climb the ladder to access the “weak spot” from the outside? All they do when they get there is stand on the platform and bear witness to the Ren vs Solo bridge… didn’t they have a job to do?
posted by ZipRibbons at 8:12 AM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I've seen the movie three times now and I cannot recollect what their task was after the suggestion of using the bombs they brought. I do know that in a scene not used in the movie, Finn and Rey have to steal a First Order snow speeder and loose snow troopers or something. You can see it parked in the background of the shot of them arriving (also when Rey is first seen wearing ~~Poe's~~ Finn's jacket.
posted by Atreides at 9:29 AM on January 7, 2016

Han said something about them meeting back up inside and then blowing the place and running, which I thought was weird, but by that point I was pretty into the movie to care about any holes.
posted by numaner at 9:54 AM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm fairly certain that they split up so Rey could open the blast doors for Han & Chewie to enter the facility. That done, Rey & Finn climbed up to join them.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 9:59 AM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thanks Nutmeg, that sounds about right. I feel quite sorry for them - they climb all the way up, stand on the platform and watch the badness happen, then have to climb all the way down again. Sucks to be them.
posted by ZipRibbons at 11:01 AM on January 7, 2016

Chewie? Finn? Rey? Y'all are really awesome, but the next time you see an ally talking to a known bad guy, of the three of you needs to shoot first and ask questions later. Don't matter which one, just someone, m'kay?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:03 AM on January 7, 2016

That's what Han did on Cloud City. It didn't work, but his head was in the right place. bless 'im.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:32 AM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hey, nothing bad happens in this universe when people meet with other people, alone or with others just off in the distance!*

*

Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader
Luke and Darth Vader
Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi
Darth Maul and Qui-Gon Jinn
Anakin and Count Dooku
Count Dooku and Anakin
Mace Windu and Palpatine **
Yoda and Palpatine
Darth Maul and Obi-Wan Kenobi
Jar Jar Binks and the Audience
Jango Fett and Mace Windu
Jabba the Hutt and Leia
R2-D2 and Salicious Crumb
Kylo Ren and Finn
Kylo Ren and Rey
Rey and Kylo Ren
BB-8 and Tito
Greedo and Han Solo
Luke and Rancor
Wampa and Luke

** Third person was Anakin/Darth Vader.
posted by Atreides at 11:39 AM on January 7, 2016

Anakin and Padme

(People like to get lulzy about how she "died of sadness" but forget the part where Anakin Force-chokes the hell out of her and Sidious straight up tells him "you killed her." RotS is dark as fuck)
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:47 AM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

But what about Finn and Poe? That one turned out pretty nice.
posted by ckape at 11:51 AM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Hero exception. See Han Solo and Luke (repeated interactions), Han Solo and Leia, Leia and Wicket, Han Solo and Chewbacca, Rey and Finn, etc.
posted by Atreides at 12:20 PM on January 7, 2016

Episode 7: The worst yet.

Wrong.
posted by Pendragon at 12:27 PM on January 7, 2016

******* IMPORTANT UPDATE! *******
A friend is listening to the audiophile version of the novel and informs me that the voice from Rey's memories of being left on Jakku is a female.
The voice says something like "we have to go. then stay here. You'll be safe here. I'll be back for you."
*******END IMPORTANT UPDATE! *******
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:53 PM on January 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

Thank you, Brandon for the IMPORTANT UPDATE. The question is, did it sound like Mara Jade's voice?
posted by Atreides at 1:02 PM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Maybe? Luke's knows exactly who she is when he see's her, so either a daughter or former student. Probably thought she was dead. At least I hope that's the story. If Luke just took off and left his wife and daughter behind after Ren went all KILL JEDI, that would be disappointing.

Mildly annoyed with Disney keeping Rey's past a total secret still. Luke whispering her name or "daughter" at the end would have been more satisfying while still leaving lots of mystery.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:19 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

In the novelization, is it confirmed that Luke is standing by a grave? That might go a long way toward explaining Luke's actions. I have the suspicion that the answer to the mystery will be one of the first things revealed in Episode VIII. As in, first fifteen to thirty minutes.
posted by Atreides at 1:30 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Nope, no confirmation of a grave. Frankly I don't think it is, the rock is too weirdly shaped to be headstone.

The last line is the novelization is "She wondered what would happen next," which just irks me to no end.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:35 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Now I'm irked. THANKS A LOT. I could see it as a grave marker based on the state of headstones I've seen in very old cemeteries, particularly those which were in undeveloped areas. (I have an ancestor who died in 1844 or so, who's stone almost looks like it was simply taken from a pile of rock debris and was scratched with the info on it). Then again, it could be just a rock. A single stupid rock upon which a thousand fan theories sailed.

The alleged script pages released recently don't offer much more help, either.
posted by Atreides at 1:44 PM on January 7, 2016

Mildly annoyed with Disney keeping Rey's past a total secret still. Luke whispering her name or "daughter" at the end would have been more satisfying while still leaving lots of mystery.

It's funny you should mention that. One of the rumors that was laughed out of /r/starwarsleaks and turned into a running joke was that Luke was going to say"my baby girl" when he sees Rey at the end.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:45 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I heard he was originally supposed to whisper 'Rosebud'.
posted by mazola at 1:47 PM on January 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

He was going to whisper something inaudible, and no matter how much we enhance it we can't tell what he's saying even though it's a deserted island and not a busy Tokyo intersection.
posted by numaner at 1:50 PM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm patiently waiting for mashups that have Luke or Rey whispering all sorts of things at the final moment.

"No pizza?"

"Hey, you dropped this."

"Anakin?"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:13 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's saying he would have come for her, except for, you know, all of that sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.
posted by ckape at 2:17 PM on January 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Hail Hydra"
posted by coriolisdave at 2:33 PM on January 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

Movie Yelling With Mallory and Mallory: Stop Making Me Care About Kyp Durron

MALLORY: ALSO IF YOU ARE GOING TO WIPE OUT EU CONTINUITY WHY ARE YOU GOING TO APPARENTLY KEEP THE ENTIRE KYP DURRON STORYLINE OF THE JEDI ACADEMY TRILOGY BUT MERGE KYP AND JACEN SOLO INTO THE SAME CHARACTER?

MA’ALLORY: They did, right? Like, obviously the whole Yavin 4 Praxeum disaster happened on a slightly smaller scale in the TFA backstory, which means that this movie made me KIND OF LOVE Kyp Durron, and I don’t know if I can forgive it for that.

So is Finn then Flint + Barney?
posted by Apocryphon at 2:40 PM on January 7, 2016

The stone behind Luke is Marcellus Wallace's soul.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:54 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Luke was going to say"my baby girl" when he sees Rey at the end.

REY: You're my dad?!

LUKE: What? No, I was talking to my light saber. Who the f*ck are you?

(That 70's Show Theme Song "On the Street" plays)
posted by General Malaise at 2:58 PM on January 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Star Wars: Archaeology of the Jedi": "The second [cross], which I’m not sure about, as I can’t locate the exact spot on the map, seems to be a much smaller stone flag on Luke Skywalkers left as he turns around to face Rey. It could be a natural feature but I nevertheless got the distinct impression of a rough cruciform shape. Coupled with its slanting angle, projecting out of the ground, I am presuming it to be one of the several examples of crosses, jutting up out of the rocky greenery around Christ’s Saddle."
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:35 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Saw it a couple nights ago, finally. The sequence with Rey piloting the Falcon for the first time was probably the highlight for me. The film was a little Abramsy at times, and the plot was a total retread, but I'm okay with this and it could've been a lot worse.

Like a lot of you, I feel my long-dormant EU lore leaking out of me. I was thinking a bit about superweapons last night and how radically different the Sun Crusher was, but I didn't think about Kyp Durron until now. Rey's force-vision after touching Luke's lightsaber was pretty cool storytelling though.

If I were my younger, obsessive self, I'd be eating up all the backstory Disney could offer me, but I think I am going to work on my existing pile o' books.
posted by Standard Orange at 4:06 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Tangentially, does anyone have any insight into the sound design behind Kylo's mask voice? It seems like a common sort of process involving the layering of several voice tracks, like how they did Ultron's voice in the Avengers movie, but I'm not sure what they do to give it that low-end rasp while maintaining crisp diction.
posted by invitapriore at 4:26 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

The stone behind Luke is Marcellus Wallace's soul.
Luke: you know what they call a cheeseburger in Coruscant?
Rey: What do they call a cheeseburger on Coruscant?
Luke: An Emperor with cheese.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:34 PM on January 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm patiently waiting for mashups that have Luke or Rey whispering all sorts of things at the final moment.

"No pizza?"

"Hey, you dropped this."

"Anakin?"

"Where are my power converters?"

"Hey, you wanna hear a funny story?"

"Away put your weapon. I mean you no harm."
posted by wabbittwax at 4:51 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

I believe this is the scene of the Luke and Rey encounter. It's known as Christ's Saddle. Near as I can tell, Luke stood a couple of feet beyond the nearest yellow post, Rey stood on the grass on the far side of the path. There is a curiously-shaped rock behind the red-and-white striped tape that could be a foreshortened view of the mysterious tilted slab. Or they could have just made their own, or CGI'd it in. I've been looking for a reverse view on this location but haven't found one yet.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 5:21 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Photo Sphere view. Unfortunately taken from the same angle, but at least it gives a view in the round.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 5:36 PM on January 7, 2016

Reverse view from an article in The Irish Times.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 5:53 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe an Irish MeFite can just go there and see if Mara Jade is buried there or not, and save us all wondering about it until 2017.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 6:00 PM on January 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

A real Meefy would plan a meet-up there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:02 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Actually I'm currently on board with the Leia-had-a-daughter-after-Han-left scenario. In which case the "grave marker" could be a red herring or is for someone else entirely.

A real Meefy would plan a meet-up there. Needs a #NoTrueScotsman tag. :p
posted by Autumn Leaf at 6:19 PM on January 7, 2016

Also I bet Mark Hamill knows, but he is enjoying being mysterious, so good luck getting anything out of him.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 7:00 PM on January 7, 2016

Essence of Decision: Understanding the Real History of the Imperial and Succession Wars

The fall of the Empire, and the failure of its successor states to re-establish order in the galaxy, is usually mistold in the history books. Popular, semi-academic, and even academic authors write it as a combination of tabloid soap opera and personal heroics: villains, Jedi Knights, stunning double crosses, the Palpatine succession, and--of course--the bizarre and incomprehensible repeated cross-generational psychodramas of the Skywalker family.

This, however, neglects the real history--the deep structural and bureaucratic-cultural factors that led, as Leia Amidala/Skywalker/Organa apocryphal warned her father, the star systems to slip through the fingers of the Empire even as it attempted to tighten its grip. This neglect in standard histories means that while they can serve as entertaining diversions, they cannot as sources of true deep understanding of historical events--and they can serve even less as sources of lessons to guide present and future policymakers.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:13 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Huh, adjusted for inflation, TFA is only the twentieth best selling film in history. Nowhere near Episode IV or Gone With The Wind.
posted by octothorpe at 7:47 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

STAR WARS EPISODE VIII:
THE FORCE IRRESISTIBLE

LUKE SKYWALKER has been found! After years of
isolation, REY has arrived on the mysterious planet of
AHCH-TO, where Luke has been living in seclusion.

As the FIRST ORDER begins to move openly following
the destruction of the SENATE OF THE REPUBLIC, the
RESISTANCE is engaged in a series of desperate battles
in a vain attempt to hold them back.

Much depends on Rey's ability to convince Luke to pick
up his lightsaber, and help train new Jedi, who could turn
the tide of battle....

[PAN DOWN, TO A BLUE PLANET]

[CUT TO LUKE AND REY, STANDING AS WE SAW THEM AT THE END OF STAR WARS VII]

LUKE: Uh. Is that -

REY (proud, but nervous): Your lightsaber. We need you. I need you. I think I could be a Jedi. Am I your daughter?

LUKE:....

REY: Am I your daughter? And you just left me on that backwater desert world?

LUKE: Desert world? I hate sand. It gets everywhere -

REY: Am I your daughter?

LUKE: You really have to let me finish a thought. Some of this stuff rhymes, you know.

REY says nothing, just stares at him. Her arm, holding the lightsaber, drops.

LUKE: Rey, I am your father. But -

REY: How could you just abandon me? Run off and disappear like that?

LUKE: It's complicated. First, when your mother and I split up -

REY: You and Mom divorced?

LUKE: She didn't understand my relationship with my sister. But, anyways, what she got awarded for child support was just crazy and I couldn't afford it. So, you know, that was hard. And then this guy from Tatooine shows up, with some invoice for power converters that I never picked up like 35 years earlier, and all of a sudden I had debt collectors all over me. And my Jedi school suffered a setback -

REY: Yeah, I met him.

LUKE (grimacing): So, you know, the easiest way out was just to disappear. Your Mom must have left you wherever you wound up, I guess - after the Jedi school thing, she got a restraining order, was trying to have me declared an unfit parent -

REY: And you, Luke Skywalker, hero of the Rebellion, the Jedi who faced and destroyed Darth Vader and the Emperor, you just ran away?

LUKE: You don't remember your mother. Talk about immovable objects!
posted by nubs at 7:55 PM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: The Force Comes Downstairs For Breakfast
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 PM on January 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

Star Wars: Episode VIII: Just Give The Force Another Five Minutes...
posted by entropicamericana at 8:10 PM on January 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

The real killer of it is that there are always huge time jumps between episodes, so in all likelihood we'll never really know what the fuck Luke ended up saying to Rey just then.
posted by dogwalker at 8:37 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Aw dang, having to skip to the bottom again to comment, I can't keep up.

Re this:
And I can see an interesting arc - she idolizes Luke, and learns of Ren's background and what he did - killing Luke's pupils, destroying the New Jedi Order, and possibly killing Luke's wife(if that is a gravestone where Luke is???) and sets off for revenge - the wrong motive to start from. (Particularly if they make her Luke's daughter, which would mean Ren killed her mother, if my theory is correct).

My problem with this (and it is a very nice scenario) is that during the whole haunted-saber sequence, wasn't Rey hearing a child calling "Mamaaa"? I came out of that thinking the identity of her mother was more significant than that of her father. Also of course, Rey remembers being abandoned by her mother, so her mother would still need to have been alive several years after Luke bailed on everything.

My family all thought (along with the whole world) that Rey was obviously Luke's daughter. I came away with something more like Mchelly's interpretation:
That Han was away during the pregnancy/birth and didn't know there were twins, and Leia was told (maybe via prophecy) that the good side's only hope was to hide one away, and not let anyone know. Then the girl was taken from her foster parents to protect her and things went awry, so no one knew where she was -- but that Leia maybe has an idea or a hope when they meet that she could be her (and Ren gets twinges but can't figure out why

I totally thought Ren and Rey were twins; they were so equally matched (and the story was so closely echoing ANH). However, there's a nine-year age difference between Driver and Ridley; not sure how that could add up. And of course, if Leia is Rey's mother, you would still have the problem above... only in this case, where would Han have been for the first six or seven years of Rey's life? I mean yeah, Rey could have been with foster parents, but that would rob the "mamaaa!" cries of a lot of meaning.

I still (want to) believe Rey's maternal line is the most important, but are there any theories that would make this work?
posted by torticat at 8:54 PM on January 7, 2016

I still (want to) believe Rey's maternal line is the most important, but are there any theories that would make this work?

The Kenobi theory, because if so there's a generation we're missing in that line (Rey would have to be Obi-Wan's grandkid, but who was his kid?). I went and watched the movie again yesterday, and Rey's parallels to Obi-Wan are striking: not just the accent and costume, but the way she easily uses the Jedi mind trick (big for both young and old Obi-Wan), sneaks around the Destroyer like he did in ANH, her moral clarity and strength...all of it most strongly echoed his character, not a Skywalker.

(Also, when Rey firsts meets BB-8: 'where are you from? Oh, classified, eh? Me too.')
posted by LooseFilter at 9:10 PM on January 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

“ We need to talk about Kylo Ren’s wound.”
posted by ob1quixote at 9:30 PM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

“Rey is a Kenobi,” Ben Ostrower, Medium, 27 December 2015
posted by ob1quixote at 9:53 PM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

^ this. I'm totally in the Kenobi camp. Pending further beanplating.

Also, the two main reasons I do not think Rey is a Skywalker: we're led to think so too strongly, has to be a misdirect; and George Lucas, when he first had a public reaction to the script for TFA, was obviously pissed and made a comment I recall reading about how 'they weren't really interested in my script drafts for the last three episodes and are going in a different direction, which is disappointing. It's supposed to be a story about a family.' So I just don't think it's ultimately going to be only about the Skywalkers.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:20 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

JFC, I've started and been trying to catch up on this thread for a week. Impossible.

What's the latest on Kylo Ren as cargo cult'er? I thought it was kind of hilarious, kind of like JP in "Grandma's Boy."
posted by rhizome at 11:29 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

What If Kylo Ren Loved His Grandmother, Too?
posted by Mezentian at 12:51 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

“ We need to talk about Kylo Ren’s wound.”

Good points in there about Ren's relationship with Chewbacca. Chewie's a big softie; Ben Solo would have been like a nephew to him. And then Ren murders the man who is his own father and practically Chewbacca's brother... how terrible must Chewbacca have felt, even as he pulled the trigger on his bowcaster?
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:56 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

ob1quixote: "“Rey is a Kenobi,” Ben Ostrower, Medium, 27 December 2015"

I went into that sceptical, but came out convinced.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:46 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

More cut dialogue from the end.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:46 AM on January 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

It's hard to say that Episode VIII will make a time jump like the other franchise films, because it's the first Star Wars film to truly end on a cliff hanger moment. Our best example of a previous cliffhanger was the end of Empire with Han Solo frozen in carbonite and hauled off to Jabba the Hutt. (Speaking of which, it just dawned on me....in the first movie, Greedo tells Han the bounty is for dead or alive, wherein in ESB, Fett warns Vader that Han is no good to him dead....anyways...back to what I was saying...) What was the fate of our rebels? Everything had gone down the sink and what not, and we're left with a view of our heroes gazing out a large window and then ships pulling away.

That was a cliff hanger, but not a cliff hanging moment. In TFA, it's not an overall "What happens next?!" it's an immediate, "What's the next thirty seconds?!" At the very worse, if we don't return to that moment immediately, I'm willing to bet we see it in a flashback of Rey reflecting on the moment very early in the film. The only reason we don't immediately see it unfold might be because every Star Wars film has always opened in space, all seven. We know there hasn't been extensive shooting in Ireland on the island, so perhaps, if we don't see an immediate resolution of that moment, we will instead open to the Falcon in space, then a cut inside to Rey staring at Luke, then a flashback or something.

Whatever happens, either there'll be extensive shooting on a sound stage built to represent the island or Rey and Luke leave that island pretty immediately after the end of TFA.
posted by Atreides at 7:03 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

According to this, they're building sets for the island for Episode 8, as migrating birds prevent re-shooting there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:22 AM on January 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I find myself really wanting to see what Luke's like now. In the original movies he was defined by brash hopefulness - "we can save the princess", "I can save my friends", "I can still save my father." I don't seem him as turning out as some milquetoast fortune-cookie Jedi master. He's obviously been beaten down by life but I really hope he shows more signs of life than he does in EP VI, like we know Mark Hamill is now capable of.

A fantastic development would be Rey reinvigorating him to a point that he's acting like a giddy farm boy who's on an exciting adventure. In fact the perfect mirror of EP V would be that instead of Luke mentoring Rey throughout the movie, she is instead teaching him how to give a damn again.
posted by charred husk at 7:25 AM on January 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

(Speaking of which, it just dawned on me....in the first movie, Greedo tells Han the bounty is for dead or alive, wherein in ESB, Fett warns Vader that Han is no good to him dead....anyways...back to what I was saying...)

Greedo is working for Jabba, who doesn't care what happens to Han as long as it sends a message. Fett is working for Vader, who wants to use Han to trap Luke & Leia (mostly Luke).
posted by tobascodagama at 8:41 AM on January 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

instead of Luke mentoring Rey throughout the movie, she is instead teaching him how to give a damn again.

I like this idea, but I worry that in the wrong hands, it could get very close to turning Rey into Luke's Magic Pixie Dream Girl. Just cuz Rey is female, it doesn't mean that she has to be an emotional fluffer for our former male lead.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:43 AM on January 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

Also it implicitly puts the hero's mantle on Luke again, not Rey or Finn or Poe or any of the other newly introduced characters I want to see shine in Episode VIII.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:49 AM on January 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Also, following up on the Rey Kenobi theory some more, one of the most compelling reasons that occurred to me for making Rey a Kenobi is that Disney has a lot more movies to make and there is 30 years of story of one of the original, principal characters, that we know nothing about: Obi-Wan Kenobi. How would Disney and Lucasfilm not look at those 30 years and that character as ripe for new story?? And what better way to sow interest in that time period and that character than to have his granddaughter be the hero of the current trilogy?

Disney would be dumb not to use Eps. 7-9 to at least partially lay creative groundwork for future films, and this one seems just too good to pass up. But these were just idle musings...until....the gossip-news has broken! Disney and Ewan McGregor are in talks for (possibly!) an Obi-Wan Kenobi TRILOGY of movies.

She's a Kenobi. (I now find this explanation so satisfying that I will be disappointed if Rey is a Skywalker.)
posted by LooseFilter at 9:00 AM on January 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Greedo is working for Jabba, who doesn't care what happens to Han as long as it sends a message. Fett is working for Vader, who wants to use Han to trap Luke & Leia (mostly Luke).

Vader is who Fett says "he's no good to me dead" to.

Anyway, it's important for there to be a time-gap between movies. That's what gives kids a blank space to imagine their own thrilling Star Wars adventures. Think about all the crap Marvel and the EU writers shoehorned in between movies, now multiply that by millions. They better provide that canvas between VII and VIII.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:02 AM on January 8, 2016

Disney and Ewan McGregor are in talks for (possibly!) an Obi-Wan Kenobi TRILOGY of movies.

I would love this so much. If they could work McDiarmid into them that would be a wonderful bonus (what is it with Scots being the best actors in the prequels?).
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:04 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Disney and Ewan McGregor are in talks for (possibly!) an Obi-Wan Kenobi TRILOGY of movies.

Could this open up the return of Mace Windu as well?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:07 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

The prequels sequels?
posted by popcassady at 10:21 AM on January 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh, I just realized. These would probably be set after RotS. Otherwise you're pretty much stuck making Clone Wars movies.

But I would totally pay good money to see Star Wars: The Kenobi Chronicles where it's just him getting his shit together on Tattooine, setting himself up for a nice long stay, assembling his moisture vaporator, annoying the hell out of the Lars family by dropping by unannounced just to hang out and see how the Skywalker kid is doing, going to Mos Eisley to get drunk for the first time in his Jedi life and unwittingly fathering Rey's parent, etc and there's no climactic battles or threats imperiling the entire galaxy or whatever, it's just quotidian slices of his new life in exile.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:23 AM on January 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

The prequels sequels?

sprequels
posted by mazola at 10:25 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some of Kenobi's life on Tatooine is slowly coming out through Marvel's Star Wars comics, an ongoing series that follows our heroes after A New Hope. In them, Luke has found the diary of Obi-Wan and it appears that glimpses into his life are going to be presented through Luke's reading of the diary from time to time. In the first installment, part of his dilemma to hide from being found is to learn how not to be a Jedi, i.e., standing up for what's right and protecting others. In the end, he can't fight that part of who he is, but it implies he can't just be Obi-Wan the Jedi anymore. That might mean he could develop a relationship during his hands off stewardship of Luke. (I think the next issue of the series will have another return to Obi's life.)
posted by Atreides at 10:29 AM on January 8, 2016

Young Han Solo: Spree-quel killer.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:30 AM on January 8, 2016

Disney and Ewan McGregor are in talks for (possibly!) an Obi-Wan Kenobi TRILOGY of movies.

I would like one of them to be of his adventures after becoming a ghost. Especially if Anakin guest starred and they hash out all his issues.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:38 AM on January 8, 2016

The second installment of the Obi-Wan trilogy will be all about the political situation on Tatooine: negotiating territory and resource rights with Sand People, fighting prejudice against Jawas, and so on. It'll be thrilling.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:46 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

My favorite thing about the prequels was Ewan McGregor's Alec Guinness impression.
posted by frecklefaerie at 10:54 AM on January 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

In the conclusion, Obi-Wan realizes he can honor the memory of the Anakin he loved and enhance his reputation as a crazy old hermit by petitioning the Hutts to outlaw sand. Following on that, the third film is basically Mr. Kenobi Goes To Washington, but with Rancors.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:03 AM on January 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Damn, I would love to see some off-the-rails Obi-Wan drowning his sorrows after the Clone Wars. Maybe before he arrived, Mos Eisley spaceport was actually known to be quite a prosperous and law-abiding burg, a place where one would be happy to settle down and raise a family. He knew better than anyone what a hive of scum and villainy it later became, because his post-war self helped it get there.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 11:08 AM on January 8, 2016

John Boyega is the breakout star of this set of Getty stock photos
posted by Artw at 11:13 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

It turns out going to bars and lopping arms off is something he does every goddamn week
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:13 AM on January 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

%n:

"I like this idea, but I worry that in the wrong hands, it could get very close to turning Rey into Luke's Magic Pixie Dream Girl. Just cuz Rey is female, it doesn't mean that she has to be an emotional fluffer for our former male lead."

Good point. I honestly wasn't even thinking of the Magic Pixie Dream Girl trope, just her general enthusiasm that everyone has loved. I don't get to direct, though, so it could easily end up like you said.
posted by charred husk at 11:22 AM on January 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

> It turns out going to bars and lopping arms off is something he does every goddamn week

It's gotten to the point where you can't even get accidental dismemberment coverage within three sectors of that fucking spaceport.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:33 AM on January 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Disney and Ewan McGregor are in talks for (possibly!) an Obi-Wan Kenobi TRILOGY of movies.

The last scene of the last movie should be Obi-Wan looking at his chronometer and saying, "Yikes! I've got to get back to the Jundland Wastes on Tatooine—I'm supposed to be in the next movie!" Then he looks at the camera and does an exaggerated wink as it irises out.

Why do nerds need to have every single moment of a character's life explained and accounted for? It's really off-putting.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:39 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Kenobi theory is just crazy enough to be satisfying. But what if, like Anakin, Rey has NO FATHER? Twist! And so when shit goes down at the Jedi Academy, the Force baby is hidden on some far off planet. And of course the voice says someone will return for little Rey, even if the mom dies, surely the Jedis and Force-sensitives (and maybe their spouses) know she exists in hiding. "...no, there is another."
posted by sweetmarie at 11:39 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

...how terrible must Chewbacca have felt, even as he pulled the trigger on his bowcaster?

I feel like they could have spent more time on the anguish of Chewbacca. I mean...
posted by Behemoth at 11:44 AM on January 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Did we cover the concept that Snoke, whose voice was apparently in Rey's head telling her to kill Kylo, may have also been the one to push Kylo to kill Han? I mean, he can apparently force communicate faster than the speed of light (and also been able to tell Hux where Kylo was), is it hard to believe the could have pushed Kylo over the edge to kill his father at the crucial moment?

I mean it would give Snoke a Voldemorte level of evilness to him - his strength is in manipulation of emotions and feelings in ways that the previous series never went into, but does make sense.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:46 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Kenobi theory is just crazy enough to be satisfying. But what if, like Anakin, Rey has NO FATHER?

Since Anakin was an immaculate conception, then what if Rey was formed by the Force via Luke?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:54 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Too soon for slashfic, B.
posted by rhizome at 12:22 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why do nerds need to have every single moment of a character's life explained and accounted for? It's really off-putting.

This is a strange thought to express in a 2200+ comments thread about Star Wars. Unless you're talking about yourself, in which case, there there, it's ok to be that nerdy. The rest of us are pretty happy about it.
posted by numaner at 12:49 PM on January 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Why do nerds need to have every single moment of a character's life explained and accounted for? It's really off-putting.

Only for the interesting characters. No one is asking for Jar-Jar's back story.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:18 PM on January 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

He was Darth Plagueis' first attempt at forming a living thing from pure, concentrated Dark Side of the Force.

Not all experiments are successful.
posted by sandswipe at 1:22 PM on January 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't know. Sounds successful to me.
posted by Seamus at 1:31 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

what if Rey was formed by the Force via Luke?

Among all explanations, this is the least satisfying. Immaculate conception has been a storytelling weak point for at least a couple thousand years. Talk about a literal deus ex machina.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:32 PM on January 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Two points:
1) Immaculate conception refers to otherwise biologically normal conception of Mary free of original sin, not Jesus.

2) Biologically, Anakin does have a father, it's just that poor sound editing makes it sound like his mom is saying "There was no father. I carried him, I gave birth, I raised him. I can't explain what happened." when she's really saying "There was no father. I carried him, I gave birth, I raised him. That asshole didn't even bother to stay the night."
posted by ckape at 1:40 PM on January 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Look, people, just read between the lines. Shmi slept with Darth Plagueis. They both went with this weird immaculate conception/manipulation of midichlorians story because it was hella awkward
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:46 PM on January 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Jar Jar is a giant midichlorian?
posted by Artw at 1:54 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fun Fact: if you've been researching Darth Plagueis you may have noticed that his own Sith master was a Bith, which by the inviolable laws of familial relations between major characters in the Star Wars universe means the entire Cantina band was descended from a Sith Lord

~~* the more you know
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:57 PM on January 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

A Bith Sith? C'mon Star Wars!
posted by sweetmarie at 2:04 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

No one is asking for Jar-Jar's back story.

Star Wars: The Binks Chronicles

Episode I: From Hatchling to Annoying & Episode II: Meesa Exile! catch us up on Jar Jar's adventures before he runs into a Jedi in the swamp (maybe "Jedi in the Swamp" could be a short animated feature about Jar Jar & Qui Gon's meet-cute, from Jar Jar's perspective?)

The trilogy ends with Episode III: Senate? I Wrecked It! which chronicles Jar Jar's life after his motion lead to the creation of the Empire. The final ten minutes is just a scene of Jar Jar's legs, dangling, after we watched him climb up a ladder with a rope.
posted by nubs at 2:18 PM on January 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Anakins' father was the Roman centurion Nautious Maximus
posted by humanfont at 2:37 PM on January 8, 2016

As far as I'm concerned, this is Jar-Jar's canonical fate.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:46 PM on January 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Robot Chicken has offered us another possible fate for Jar Jar (at about 1:27), consistent with some theories.
posted by nubs at 3:16 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a petition to get George Lucas back to Star Wars. I don't think it's safe to have those kind of people in the community.
posted by crossoverman at 3:25 PM on January 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

yay let's post more Robot Chicken stuff!

More from Palpatine's last moments
which briefly introduces: Gary the Stormtrooper

More!
Self-Motivation
Dinner With Vader
One-Armed Wampa
Si, 3PO
posted by numaner at 3:26 PM on January 8, 2016

I think I said it upthread, but looking at these Robot Chicken clips makes me so excited to see what they do with The Force Awakens.
posted by crossoverman at 3:29 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

oh more from Very Lonely Luke and Emo Kylo Ren: when parody twitter accounts collide

(Han Solo's Ghost and General Organa also got into the mix, as well as Rey)

Per the top comment, there's a Sad Chewie account, and it's all growls.
posted by numaner at 3:35 PM on January 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Do I dare hope this new Star Wars movie means new Robot Chicken Star Wars bits? Anyways, funny story - for a little while my wife drove a school bus for a charter school for kids with developmental disabilities. It came with a built in DVD player, and she had a bunch of movies from the school she could play on it for the kids while she did her route.

So one night she found Robot Chicken: Star Wars in the bargain DVD bin at the grocery store and grabbed it, thinking it would be perfect for some variety on the bus rides, because all the kids love Star Wars. I made her preview it. This was the first segment. We laughed to the point of tears.
posted by nubs at 3:38 PM on January 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

One-Armed Wampa is the funniest and saddest thing ever.
posted by crossoverman at 3:47 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Robot Chicken supports Rey Kenobi
posted by nubs at 4:39 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

“J.J. Abrams Explains Why The Force Awakens Isn't Just a Carbon Copy of A New Hope,” Germain Lussier, io9, 08 January 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 5:40 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

ArtW, I don't even know how many hundred comments ago: Empire we had a bit of a wait before though, because that gets dark. And it's notable that though we watched Jedi a bunch of times Empire has only been viewed once.

Oddly enough, my 8 year and I have watched Empire a dozen times at least, but RotJ only twice so far. RotJ really *really* hasn't aged well in my opinion. (And dark as the Luke - Vader fight was in Empire, the electric torture was worse in RotJ, wasn't it?) The burnt foster parents bit is still the worst scene, I think.

ArtW's comment was near the end of a random browser window when I read it, thought it sounded familiar, and started to respond. Then I scrolled. And scrolled. And scrolled. And scrolled. And scrolled. And refreshed. And scrolled. Whew. Clearly this thread moved since I last used this browser window and switched to a different one.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:07 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Inform the troops, the art books have arrived.
posted by Artw at 7:16 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Robot Chicken also supports Darth Darth Binks.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:45 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

My favorite thing about the prequels was Ewan McGregor~~'s Alec Guinness impression.~~

Many viewers dislike the prequels for many reasons (some substantive, some not). But in a decade and a half, I cannot recall anyone faulting Ewan McGregor: he always seems to be the one actor in these movies fully committed and giving a solid performance, even when receiving exposition from a four-armed short-order cook or touring green rooms to be filled with hundreds of CGI Temuera Morrisons.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:19 AM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

A thing he does really well, in my opinion, is show the reckless, impulsive Obi-Wan that would take on an inadvisable task like training Anakin despite the Council's misgivings, and create the connective tissue between that young Master and the older, more deliberative portrayal in the original trilogy.
posted by Errant at 8:45 AM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

McGregor was apparently noted for making the lightsaber sounds while they were rehearsing/shooting the duel in Episode I, despite Lucas reminding him that the sound effects would be added in post.

He and McDiarmid are the only two who appear to be fully committed and having fun during the movies.
posted by nubs at 9:21 AM on January 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I haven't seen much talk about how Rey's Speeder is like Luke's Land-speeder turned on its side (though a bit fatter).

Hasbro has the license to create action figures, so LEGO must sell sets based around vehicles or environments.

On Jan. 1, Lego released sets that are there equivalent of larger action figures for most of the major characters (including Rey).
posted by drezdn at 9:30 AM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

McGregor did the best he could with the material provided and acquitted himself better than all of his co-stars except perhaps McDiarmid, but not even those two could make that garbage worth watching.

Still, as much as I hate fill-in-all-blanks fandom, it would be interesting to see McGregor get another chance to play an Obi-Wan in a decent script. Couldn't we just reboot the prequels now instead of in another 20 years? He's still the right age to play Obi-Wan (44 now + 19 years between ANH and a theoretical fall of Anakin would make Obi-Wan 63 in ANH, which seems right.)

(Could you imagine how salty George would get over a prequels reboot?)
posted by entropicamericana at 9:35 AM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

On Jan. 1, Lego released sets that are there equivalent of larger action figures for most of the major characters (including Rey).

And they look great.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:36 AM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Couldn't we just reboot the prequels now instead of in another 20 years? He's still the right age to play Obi-Wan (44 now + 19 years between ANH and a theoretical fall of Anakin would make Obi-Wan 63 in ANH, which seems right.)

And can we fix Palpatine's origin story while we're at it? I always figured his withered face was the inevitable result of being extremely old and sustained by the Dark Side for decades. Seeing him suddenly transform was just bizarre.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:39 AM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

He and McDiarmid are the only two who appear to be fully committed and having fun during the movies.

True -- I didn't mean to overlook McDiarmid. But to be fair, he is playing a less well-realized character. As well, he is largely playing opposite actors in makeup and costume (as is traditional), while McGregor has lots of scenes he played opposite funny hats and still managed to acquit himself well.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:39 AM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Abrams is just as annoyed and confused about the lack of Rey in toys as we are:

“I wish I had more details about merchandising and the schedule,” he said. “I’m learning things as you are. I will say that it seems preposterous and wrong that the main character of the movie is not well represented in what is clearly a huge piece of the Star Wars world in terms of merchandizing. […] I read that she wasn’t in the Monopoly game and was quickly making phone calls about this because if it were true — and it is true, and now Hasbro, of course, has said they’re going to put Rey in — it doesn’t quite make sense why she wouldn’t be there. She’s somewhat important in the story.”

posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:26 AM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

(Could you imagine how salty George would get over a prequels reboot?)

Eh. Disney's quietly making plans for a purely cgi clone of Lucas who'll sign off on anything. Truefans, of course, won't be satisfied until the Lucas rererelease which will be a mix of stop motion Lucas and physical effects Lucas.

What do you expect from a company that's been quietly building robot duplicates of presidents for the last 44 years?
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:05 PM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

On the subject of clues in music cues mentioned waaaaaayyyy upthread:

Somebody said it was Obi-wan's theme that played when Rey finally took up her lightsaber to fight Ren, but on second viewing I recognized the cue as being nearly identical to the cue where Luke is surveying the smoking remains of the Lars homestead in IV. I don't know what that indicates, but it is super effective in both scenes.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:27 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's the moment where Luke decides to go with Obi-Wan and become a Jedi. I think you can see it as an indication Rey just had a similar turning point in her life.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:16 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder how betrayed BB-8 felt when Poe Dameron came to the rescue, with some other astromech droid?
posted by ckape at 7:44 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

BB-8 knows that Poe is a free spirit and has an astromech droid in every space port. *

* not a euphemism.
posted by crossoverman at 9:31 PM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

There had better be more Robot Chickens for this new one. I think I've seen them more than I've seen actual Star Wars. The "this deal is getting worse all the time" clip made me laugh until I couldn't breathe.
posted by town of cats at 12:42 AM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Somebody said it was Obi-wan's theme that played when Rey finally took up her lightsaber to fight Ren, but on second viewing I recognized the cue as being nearly identical to the cue where Luke is surveying the smoking remains of the Lars homestead in IV. I don't know what that indicates, but it is super effective in both scenes.

In the original John Williams score, it's called The Force Theme. I see it as the theme of the Jedi / light-side protagonists, which is how it is typically used in the original trilogy.
posted by Errant at 2:18 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

It occurs to me that Kylo is going to flip the shit when he reaslises Rey's been spanking him with Grandpappy's own damned saber. I mean, that's got to be a Vader-relic he would do anything to get his mitts on right? Unless his own actually is late-life Vader's, rebuilt or the crystal from it or whatever. Could have been cool to have VIII be Kylo chasing Rey across the galaxy, and that film ending with the scene on Skelligs, almost like "take this damned thing from me" and the IX being rising up from despair to overcome, well, errything.
posted by Iteki at 2:48 AM on January 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

It occurs to me that Kylo is going to flip the shit when he reaslises Rey's been spanking him with
Grandpappy's own damned saber.

That deserves:
KeanuWoah.Gif.
posted by Mezentian at 4:07 AM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

It occurs to me that Kylo is going to flip the shit when he reaslises Rey's been spanking him with Grandpappy's own damned saber.

In the book, it seemed like he did know it was Gampy's.
posted by drezdn at 5:45 AM on January 10, 2016

Surely he already knows?

Kylo Ren: Traitor! That lightsaber...it belongs to me.
Finn: Come get it.
posted by Errant at 5:50 AM on January 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Just to clear up some potential confusion, the Force Theme has been referred to as Obi-Wan's theme in the past -- in the annotated walkthrough of the score that came with my copy of A New Hope's soundtrack (2 full CDs, very exciting in the late 90s) it's referred to as Ben Kenobi's theme. So people talking about the Force Theme, Luke's Force theme, and Obi-Wan's theme are all referring to the same leitmotif.
posted by bettafish at 6:25 AM on January 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Good point Errant, I think I need help re-plotting the sabers timeline, can't remember how Finn got it.
posted by Iteki at 6:34 AM on January 10, 2016

Also I think I read that as a more general "belongs to me" in his role as a force user, ie that any lightsaber would belong to him rather than rando muggles.
posted by Iteki at 6:36 AM on January 10, 2016

Good point Errant, I think I need help re-plotting the sabers timeline, can't remember how Finn got it.

1. Falcon crew (Han Solo, Chewbacca, Rey, Finn) arrive at Maz's planet.
2. They go to the cantina, meet Maz, and talk about what to do next. Finn says he's running, not fighting. Rey and Finn try to get each other to stay and go respectively. Finn signs on with a junker crew. Order spy calls the Order. Resistance spy calls the Resistance.
3. Rey is drawn through the Force to the basement door, *which unlocks as she approaches* (a thing we haven't been talking about yet but is like "what"). She finds Anakin's/Luke's lightsaber in the box and has her Force vision.
4. Maz tells her she has to go forwards, not backwards, and to take the lightsaber: "That lightsaber was Luke's, and his father's before him. And now it calls to you." Rey refuses and runs off into the forest.
5. The Order blows up the Hosnian system. Han and Finn realize what's happened. Finn asks where Rey is. Maz gives him the saber. Han recognizes it and says, "Where did you get that?" Maz says, "A good question, for another time. Go. Find your friend."
6. The Order attacks. Kylo Ren is informed that BB-8 went into the forest after the girl. Finn fights the melee trooper with the saber. Han, Finn, and Chewie are captured and the saber is taken from Finn.
7. The Resistance counterattacks. Finn reclaims the saber. Kylo Ren captures Rey. Finn and Han see him taking her away as the Order leaves.
8. Falcon crew minus Rey meet up with the Resistance and plot to take down Starkiller Base. Rey is interrogated there.
9. Falcon crew arrives at Starkiller Base, including Finn who has the saber. Rey escapes. Shenanigans occur.
10. After detonating the reactor, Finn and Rey run out into the base planet's forest. Kylo Ren, wounded from shenanigans, chases them with his cross-saber. He Force-throws Rey and knocks her out.
11.

Kylo Ren: "Traitor!"
Finn: *ignites saber*
Kylo Ren: "That lightsaber...it belongs to me."
Finn: "Come get it."

12. To Finn's dismay, Kylo Ren comes and gets it. Rey wakes up. Kylo Ren tries to pull the saber. Rey pulls the saber. They fight. She leaves with it as the planet disintegrates.
13. Map complete, Rey and Chewbacca follow it to Luke's planet. Rey finds Luke and offers him his old saber. Credits.
posted by Errant at 7:18 AM on January 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

On Jan. 1, Lego released sets that are there equivalent of larger action figures for most of the major characters (including Rey).

I am aware of that. Because those are buildable construction figures, they don't meet the specific definition of "action figure" in the same way that the Hasbro action figures do. I didn't make that up, I've been told specifically by Lego that they can't sell individual minifigures because they would be considered "action figures". It's lawyers, man.

I was part of the Lego Ambassador program for three cycles. I've been to Enfield, I've been to Billund, I've designed two Lego sets. I've been to dozens of Lego conventions where they do Q&As answering questions like "Why don't you sell minifigure packs of Star Wars figures?"
posted by Fleebnork at 7:25 AM on January 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Obi-Wan's Recollection of Luke's Father with Footage from the Star Wars Prequels.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:25 AM on January 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

“The new ‘Star Wars’ isn’t a rip-off, it’s a classical epic,” Joseph A. Howley, Al Jazeera America, 10 January 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 11:09 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

He tries spinning, that's a good trick

I thought we all agreed to never, ever speak of that again.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:27 PM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

If we're posting Chewie/Ben comics..
posted by coriolisdave at 6:59 PM on January 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

I apologize if someone has already asked this, but this thread is >2000 comments long now... Can anyone explain to me please why Mark Hamill got 2nd billing in the credits behind Harrison Ford and ahead of Carrie Fisher, despite his appearing on screen for a total of 15 seconds? Leia had actual lines!
posted by coppermoss at 7:29 PM on January 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Possible answers: 1. sexism; 2. he shot much more that was eventually cut from this movie; 3. contractual obligation. In case you're wondering, in all three of the original series, the three actors are billed simultaneously on one card (from left to right: Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher), so this doesn't appear to have come up as an issue before. I seem to recall reading an interview with Abrams where he said that they ended up reworking the ending fairly heavily during shooting, so it may be that Hamill did more work that we won't see or that will turn up later. But there's a reason I listed the first answer first.
posted by Errant at 7:46 PM on January 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hamil has better lawyers and plays the hero. Fisher is great, but doesn't sound like she plays well with others at all times.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:15 PM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also I think I read that as a more general "belongs to me" in his role as a force user, ie that any lightsaber would belong to him rather than rando muggles.

I though it was because he's a Vader fanboy and sees himself as Vader's heir, and therefore Vader's former lightsabre should be his.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:49 PM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I had the impression he recognised the lightsaber too.
posted by destrius at 8:56 PM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fisher is great, but doesn't sound like she plays well with others at all times.

Speaking of sexism.
posted by crossoverman at 9:31 PM on January 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah, as opposed to Mr. "Go Along To Get Along" Harrison Ford.
posted by Iteki at 12:59 AM on January 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

It may well have been sexism, but it bears considering that order of listing in the credits, being listed alone, etc, are all things that get negotiated as a matter of course by agents.

For example, apparently in RotJ, Alec Guinness negotiated to have his credit moved down (they were going to put him higher in the listing, and he felt that was unfair). Meanwhile, Sebastian Shaw (playing de-masked Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker) is listed ahead of a lot of other major roles (including both the voice and the body of Darth Vader), and Kenny Baker (R2D2) isn't even listed until the "supporting cast" section (despite being in the main cast section of the first two movies).

All sorts of weird negotiations happen around this stuff. For a modern example, in Mad Max: Fury Road, Tom Hardy and Charlize Theron share a title card. Tom is listed on the left ("first", if reading left-to-right), but Charlize is listed higher vertically, basically allowing them both to be seen as sharing "first". I guarantee you this is not just a choice made by the graphic designer; this was contractual.
posted by tocts at 5:15 AM on January 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Speaking of sexism.

Pretty much. Fisher is smart, with a killer wit and doesn't seem shy about using at times, so she probably is labeled unfairly and that might have impacted her being placed after Hamil. Which is shame, as the movie could have used more Leia time. Hopefully, that'll be fixed in the next film.

Yeah, as opposed to Mr. "Go Along To Get Along" Harrison Ford.

Ford is larger star than Hamill and Fisher combined, so it's pretty obvious he would appear first, because he can afford better agents/lawyers/etc. Not that it matters since the original question was about why Hamill appeared before Fisher.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:02 AM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Harrison is first because he is the biggest star. Hamil is second because he is a tantrum throwing whiny little tike. Fischer doesn't mind being third because she doesn't give a fuck about those things.
posted by humanfont at 6:11 AM on January 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's almost hard to remember now that Ford was a pretty major movie star during the late eighties and nineties.
posted by octothorpe at 6:44 AM on January 11, 2016

Obi-Wan remembers the dark times...the "Special Editions".... (gif)
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 AM on January 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's almost hard to remember now that Ford was a pretty major movie star during the late eighties and nineties.

Thanks to TFA, he's now America's highest grossing actor of all time.

As for the billing, it may definitely have been related to the level of reluctance to actually do the movie and held out like a carrot. Hamill initially wasn't too keen on coming back, either, the first time he was asked. I may have simply missed it, but I haven't read anything that indicates that Fisher was as nonplussed about the idea as either of the two men. Thus, the other two may have simply been sweetened, somewhat, by the placement. The only thing I've seen Fisher really complain about, fairly, was having to lose the weight. (Incidentally, Hamill also had to hit the gym, but it's unknown, that I'm aware of, that he was given a target weight to meet at.)

Incidentally, when you look back at the Original Trilogy, Luke is undeniably the main star of the film if you view it from the perspective of which character do you see by themselves (minus droids/puppets) or as the center of a plot. Arguably, Princess Leia comes in second in the first movie up until she makes it off the Death Star, at which point she fades into the background, along with Han Solo. In ESB, Leia and Han tend to share the screen together or with Chewie for almost every scene with the exception of Han searching for Luke and Leia talking with a general. In RTOJ, Leia gets more break out time courtesy her encounter with Wicket, but otherwise, her and Han are almost inseparable. All through, Luke spends a great deal of the Original Trilogy not actually sharing the screen with the other stars.

Going forward into the next trilogy, it's unsurprising that Luke's character wouldn't remain considered the most important. Even though he's on screen for just about thirty seconds, he's the first piece of information we're told about in the opening crawl and his absence is a mystery that's foremost in our mind as we watch the film. "Where has Luke gone?" He becomes the McGuffin for everyone else, pulling the characters together in the quest to find him. With that in mind, and also Harrison Ford's role in the film, the positioning kind of makes sense in that regard...but how often does a character's importance to a film affect the billing? Probably very rarely. So even if that explanation makes sense, it doesn't mean it holds a lick of weight toward actually explaining it.
posted by Atreides at 7:11 AM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm not an expert in the machinations of Hollywood, but could it have anything to do with Mark Hamill has 280(!) credited roles on IMDB while Carrie has 88? (Yes, I know Mark is primarily a voice actor.)
posted by entropicamericana at 9:07 AM on January 11, 2016

Hamil is second because he is a tantrum throwing whiny little tike.

Is Hamill known for being a prima donna?
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:23 AM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

He sure doesn't like it when he can't get his power converters
posted by wabbittwax at 9:42 AM on January 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

You forgot these...
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:41 AM on January 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

VARIETY: ‘Star Wars’ Han Solo Spinoff: Actor Shortlist Revealed (EXCLUSIVE)

The film does not shoot until next January, but sources close to the situation say the reason for such an early decision has more to do with another “Star Wars” film currently shooting, rather than the untitled “Han Solo” pic. While insiders were unable to confirm, the new Solo could have a small cameo in “Rogue One: A Star Wars” before appearing in his own standalone pic.

GODDAMMIT DISNEY WHAT THE SHIT IS WRONG WITH YOU A GALAXY IS A REALLY FUCKING BIG PLACE NOT THE SIZE OF A GODDAMN SHOPPING MALL
posted by entropicamericana at 10:59 AM on January 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

wow three young actors who have no business playing young Han Solo
posted by wabbittwax at 11:01 AM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

They should put a brown wig on Adam Driver, put a scar on his chin and call it a day.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:04 AM on January 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

The only actors who have any business playing young Han Solo are Harrison Ford and maybe River Phoenix, and... well...

(What I'm trying to say is "I have a bad feeling about this.")
posted by entropicamericana at 11:05 AM on January 11, 2016

Scott Eastwood tho....
posted by wabbittwax at 11:09 AM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean Patrick Flanery?
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:14 AM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

GODDAMMIT DISNEY WHAT THE SHIT IS WRONG WITH YOU A GALAXY IS A REALLY FUCKING BIG PLACE NOT THE SIZE OF A GODDAMN SHOPPING MALL

Everything we've ever seen in Star Wars since 3PO and R2 crashed within a few miles of Owen and Beru Lars's moisture farm is in opposition to that statement. I'm not sure why you think they would change things now.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:53 AM on January 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

wow three young actors who have no business playing young Han Solo

What, no Shia LaBeouf?
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:58 AM on January 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Too meaty a role for Mr. LaBoeuf
posted by wabbittwax at 12:00 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

A movie about a rebellious young Leia who comes to learn the political ropes could be quite good.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:03 PM on January 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

with Ellen Page? Or too old already?
posted by wabbittwax at 12:05 PM on January 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Too meaty a role for Mr. LaBoeuf

I am very pleased that this line, perhaps inadvertently, scans into Actual Cannibal perfectly.
posted by Errant at 12:09 PM on January 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

A movie about a rebellious young Leia who comes to learn the political ropes could be quite good.

I'd want to see this as a House of Cards-type series, with an elderly, disillusioned Jar Jar Binks as the senior representative who mentors her.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:29 PM on January 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yes yes, go on...
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:58 PM on January 11, 2016

I'm probably gonna pretend that the Han Solo movies don't exist. Not least because I suspect they'll portray him as an actually competent smuggler, in direct contradiction to everything we've seen on screen about his smuggling career.

(Han has a fast ship, but he's so bad at smuggling, you guys. SO BAD.)

Rogue One could be cool, though. Side stories should expand the universe, not rehash the same characters and stories we've seen a bunch of times.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:01 PM on January 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I made this for prize bull octorok
posted by numaner at 1:03 PM on January 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh, and I would pay money for a Leia series. Like, a lot of money. Pre- or -post Original Trilogy, I think there could be some great stories there.

(And if it's post-OT, you get to have Han as the eye candy occasional guest star, like he should be. Plus, you can explain all that confusing New Republic/Resistance/First Order nonsense in an unobtrusive manner, because nobody minds when you do political exposition in a story that's actually directly about politics rather than laser swords.)
posted by tobascodagama at 1:04 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, and I would pay money for a Leia series. Like, a lot of money. Pre- or -post Original Trilogy, I think there could be some great stories there.

Marvel did put out a limited series (5 issues) just on Princess Leia immediately after the Battle of Yavin. It's not bad, but necessarily the best of the stuff they've been producing. In short, she grabs a bodyguard (so to speak) and they run off to find as many of the surviving off world people of Alderaan as they can find. In a dark aftermath, apparently the Empire in retaliation for Leia's role in the Rebellion was hunting down to wipe out the remaining survivors.
posted by Atreides at 1:08 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

P.S. Princess Leia will be appearing on Rebels Wednesday after next.
posted by Atreides at 1:09 PM on January 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, but I'm not watching Rebels, and I don't really feel like starting.

I'm more into the "House of Cards but with Princess Leia" idea discussed above. I mean, the Jar Jar part of prize bull octorok's post was obviously a joke (I mean, her mentor would have been her father, Bail Organa), but the first half is something I very much want to see.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:14 PM on January 11, 2016

What? No, I absolutely wasn't joking.

(I mean, her mentor would have been her father, Bail Organa)

You don't see Leia maybe wanting to figure things out on her own and not rely on her father for guidance?
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:27 PM on January 11, 2016

I seem to remember a comics story in which Leia, as a very young girl, accidentally overhears a conversation between her father and Obi-Wan Kenobi and realizes that her father is involved in the Rebellion. She comes storming out of her quarters, confronts him, and demands to be involved as well because she wants to fight the Empire too. Bail resists at first, but she wears him down.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:49 PM on January 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Everything we've ever seen in Star Wars since 3PO and R2 crashed within a few miles of Owen and Beru Lars's moisture farm is in opposition to that statement.

Not true. R2 was aiming to get to Obi-Wan's place. Obi-Wan lived not too far from Luke, both to keep tabs on him, and to use him as bait to lure Vader[*]. So the fact that they crashed not far from Luke was intention, not coincidence.

[*] Fan theory I support -- when you give the kid the same last name as his dad, and send him to be raised on his dad's home planet by his dad's step-brother, you can't really say he was "hidden".
posted by fings at 2:02 PM on January 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Not true. R2 was aiming to get to Obi-Wan's place.

OK, true, but the point still stands. The "galaxy" depicted in the Star Wars Universe has always been a very small place, both literally in terms of speed of travel and communications, and figuratively in the sense that the same faces pop up everywhere you go.
posted by Rock Steady at 2:33 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Han has a fast ship, but he's so bad at smuggling, you guys. SO BAD.)

It seems obvious that Han isn't really a smuggler so much as a swindler of rich bad guys.
posted by straight at 3:56 PM on January 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Said bad guys always trying to kill him doesn't really say good things about how good he is at that. At least Lando scored a city and a cape.
posted by Artw at 3:58 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

He's the most famous smuggler, that's got to count for something.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:27 PM on January 11, 2016

That's like being the most famous spy!
posted by Artw at 4:28 PM on January 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

“The Force Awakens and The Rise of Idiot Journalism” Matty Granger, Facebook, 06 January 2016

I’ve spent the last few weeks searching for precisely the right words to convey just how excited “The Force Awakens” has made me for the future of the franchise and planning how I would use those words to write a fair and balanced review.

But as I sit down to write that review…I simply can’t.

And here’s why…

The Huffington Post’s article, “40 Unforgivable Plot Holes in ‘Star Wars: The Force Awakens”.

Over the last few weeks I saw this article reposted over and over both by folks in the film industry and outside of it. The reposts often carried captions from Facebook users like “Yep!” or “This is exactly my problem”. Oh shit. Did I miss something? Maybe the Huffington Post and half of Facebook saw something I didn’t. I needed to know more. So I read the article. I read it numerous times. In the end, I came to my own conclusion…

The Huffington Post has no idea what the fuck it’s talking about.

posted by ob1quixote at 5:01 PM on January 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

The ship that trolled the Kessel Run in 14 parsecs.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:55 PM on January 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Variety reports that Lucasfilm has narrowed down their massive search for someone to play the young version of Harrison Ford’s character because Han could make a brief cameo in December’s Rogue One: A Star Wars Story.

Ugh.
No.
posted by Mezentian at 5:59 PM on January 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, ideally I'd prefer the standalone films actually standalone and don't have too many of these cameo appearances.

And yet? I kinda want Boba Fett in the Young Han Solo film before he gets his own standalone. So I'm torn.
posted by crossoverman at 7:58 PM on January 11, 2016

Really, crossoverman?
posted by wabbittwax at 8:10 PM on January 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Haha, yeah. I think Marvel has killed my crossover love. I'd much rather a reference than a fully fledged crossover. I like to spot things rather than have them shoved in my face.
posted by crossoverman at 9:25 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I misread above and thought the suggestion was that Ellen Page should play young Han Solo and I would like to mention how on-board I am with that idea.
posted by Iteki at 9:31 PM on January 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

I would propose Danny Devito as a young Chewie before he came into the full coat and height of a mature Wookie.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:57 PM on January 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

He did do a good job as The Lorax, after all.
posted by wenestvedt at 3:10 AM on January 12, 2016

Not to beat a dead horse, but 538 did an analysis of the toys and found that yep, Rey is under-represented. She's lowest on the list of new characters ranked by number of toys other than Hux, and even below Poe despite him disappearing for like 2/3 of the movie.

(There does seem to be some error there, though, because the analysis says that older Leia doesn't appear even once, but the Resistance Troop Transport does include the older Leia. It also includes a Lego Admiral Ackbar, which my nephew was incredibly psyched about. Maybe that set wasn't listed yet, though.)
posted by tocts at 6:56 AM on January 12, 2016

I believe it's a relatively new one, yes.

Lego still doing better than everyone else.
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

jenfullmoon: While I can't think of any specifically quotable lines in this one after the fact (no "scruffy looking nerf herder" stuff), it's the expressions that really cracked me up in a lot of places.

I agree with the lack of quot, but I can imagine people will shout some lines back on reviewing. I saw the re-release of Empire in Santa Barbara, and there was a group of teenagers with Nerf Herder sweatshirts or hoodies. When that Leia said that line, they shouted it out from the front row. I look forward to a new generation of kids growing up with this and building bits of the movie into their own in-group short-hand.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:14 AM on January 12, 2016

The Huffington Post has no idea what the fuck it’s talking about.

And then he answers it point by point as if he's never heard of clickbait (or Cunningham's Law) and doesn't realize he's just done exactly what the Huff Po article was designed to get people to do.
posted by straight at 8:10 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

While I can't think of any specifically quotable lines in this one after the fact (no "scruffy looking nerf herder" stuff)

I was waiting the entire film for someone - Leia preferably, but someone - to cal Han scruffy looking because OMG was he ever. And it would have been funny if he had been transporting some nerfs on his freighter, but maybe that would have been too much of a wink at the audience in a movie that already had a lot of winks.
posted by nubs at 8:13 AM on January 12, 2016

And then he answers it point by point as if he's never heard of clickbait (or Cunningham's Law) and doesn't realize he's just done exactly what the Huff Po article was designed to get people to do.

Yes, that was was a really sad display of...I don't know what to call it, but man! Like the film, don't like it, whatever, but to so throughly reference obvious clickbait is just ridiculous.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:56 AM on January 12, 2016

To be fair, he did say his intent was to rip the head off the HuffPo review and shit down it's esophagus. So, you know, I guess that's mission accomplished or something.
posted by nubs at 9:00 AM on January 12, 2016

I agree with the lack of quot, but I can imagine people will shout some lines back on reviewing.

On my second viewing I definitely yelled out "TWELVE!" along with Han.
posted by numaner at 9:01 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

While I can't think of any specifically quotable lines in this one after the fact (no "scruffy looking nerf herder" stuff)

That's not how the Force works!
posted by Mchelly at 9:11 AM on January 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

Finn's "Yeah, I don't speak that" to BB-8 was really funny. "Come get it" was cool, even if Finn then got smacked around.

"How does this work? Do I talk first? Do you talk?" was a great character moment for Poe.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 9:20 AM on January 12, 2016

Are we all pretending "droid, please" didn't happen
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:23 AM on January 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

The Rey Star Wars toys you asked for are finally on their way
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I honestly never thought I'd make it to the bottom of this thread.

Saw it four times before Christmas; thought I came up with the Rey Kenobi connection myself after the third viewing but there were already Redditors on that... with one exception that I haven't seen anywhere - who says Obi-Wan broke his Jedi vows? He knew where Kamino was.

Some lazy friends who haven't gone to see it yet asked me to just act it out for them so I turned to my partner and said "So, who talks first? Do you talk first?" and that's as far as we got because we couldn't stop giggling after that.
posted by Molesome at 9:55 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

1 Bun, 2 Buns, 3 Buns
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:24 AM on January 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah, my friends and I have already added, "That's not how the Force works!" to our lingo. Can't think of anything else that has stuck, though.
posted by charred husk at 10:50 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm convinced that the "Droid, please!" line was a random warming-up kind of improv from Boyega that made it to the final cut anyway. It was totally absurd by also kind of endearing?

Re: Leia making her own way independent of Bail, I think that would be one of the main sources of tension in the series. Leia trying to get out from under her father's shadow, despite the fact that he's actually a really solid mentor and resource and everyone assumes that she's just doing his bidding anyway.

Mostly, I think it would be nice to have a single family in the entire galaxy that's not totally dysfunctional, and the Organas are one of the few candidates that could actually sustain an ongoing series of some kind.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:00 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Rey Star Wars toys you asked for are finally on their way

I am amused/bemused by the fact that the only Rey toy pictured in the article is a Nerf dartgun replica of the pistol Han gives her. I mean, sure, she's on the packaging, and I love Nerf dart guns, but...really? (And I know there are Rey action figures as part of this new wave of toys, it's the choice of picture here that is amusing.)
posted by nubs at 11:06 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

On my second viewing I definitely yelled out "TWELVE!" along with Han.

My kid yelled out, upon a second viewing, "It was EIGHT!"
Little fucking revisionist was just trying to get a rise out of people.
posted by Seamus at 12:04 PM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

It's Always Sunny in Tatooine
posted by numaner at 12:07 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

[INTERIOR, PADDY'S CANTINA, CHARLIE AND MAC ARE ARGUING AT THE BAR]
CHARLIE: So all I'm saying is...
MAC: Oh my God, shut up, Dude.
CHARLIE: No, come on, all I'm saying is..
MAC: If you don't shut up I swear to God...
[DEE AND DENNIS WALK IN, DRINKING BLUE MILK OUT OF CONTAINERS WITH STRAWS]
DEE: Hey, what are you two nerf herders arguing about?
DENNIS: 'Nerf Herders?' Seriously, Dee? But really, what's the action here?
[TITLE CARD: TATTOINE, 11:30 AM, ON A TUESDAY]
CHARLIE: I was just telling Mac about Midi-
MAC: I am about to blast your ass, dude!
CHARLIE: Hey- come on, they asked!
[MAC BLOWS AIR OUT OF HIS NOSE, AND ANGRILY WALKS AWAY FROM THE BAR WITH HIS HANDS RAISED]
DENNIS: Midi-what?
CHARLIE: You know, midichlorians? The little microscopic animals that live in people's blood?
[DENNIS AND DEE LOOK AT EACH OTHER, LOOK BACK AT CHARLIE]
DEE: What are you talking about, bantha-poo-doo for brains?
[DENNIS SILENTLY GLARES AT DEE]
CHARLIE: Ho- How in the hell am I the only person who knows abou- OK, midichlorians are these little force sensitive things that live in your blood and let you do cool Jedi shit!
[DENNIS AND DEE LOOK HORRIFIED, OFF CAMERA MAC YELLS]
MAC: See, I told you, he's finally goddamned snapped.
[CHARLIE LEANS IN AND WHISPERS]
CHARLIE: Guys.... I have midichlorians!
[TITLE CARD: CHARLIE KELLY, JEDI KNIGHT]
posted by codacorolla at 12:20 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

More photos of the Rey figures

Fleebnork Jr. is going to love those Galaxy Heroes figures for further adventures in his Millennium Falcon.
posted by Fleebnork at 12:25 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

My most guiltiest of pleasures is elaborate internet paper doll games, and oh look, a new "space warrior" one for making Star Wars characters! (Looks to be ladies-only at the moment.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:27 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Just back from our second viewing (IMAX 2D! So good.) and I need to share my feels and notice-ings:

Thing 1:
When Rey touches Luke's lightsabre we are shown a series of scenes, and what struck me was the viewpoint of those scenes. Originally I thought they were memories from Luke somehow transferred to the lightsabre. But upon this second viewing I have another theory.

It seems clear to me that a few of the scenes take place during the massacre led by Kylo Ren, you see Luke touching R2-D2. But if this is Luke's memory why is he viewing himself in the third person?

Next there is a flash of Rey being dropped off at Jakku. At first viewing I thought this was her own early memory. But again, the camera is looking at her. So is it actually her memory?

My theory is that it's another person's memories. Someone who both witnessed the massacre and Rey's abandonment/escape. Perhaps her parents?

This theory does admittedly fall down because the flashbacks also show the ship that dropped Rey off leaving and I'm not sure I'm ready to say these are Unkar Plutt's memories.

Thing 2:
When Leia and Rey say goodbye it seems to me that we are joining them at the end of a conversation. I would speculate that Leia has already revealed Rey's parentage and background to her by this point. More significantly, the way she says "May the force be with you" makes me think that part of this discussion includes Rey's possession of the force.

Given this reveal, I still don't think Luke is her father. IF she has been told Luke was her father, her reaction to meeting Luke doesn't fit. The way the scene is played out makes more sense if she was was told she is Ben Kenobi's grand daughter and the history of the lightsabre.
posted by like_neon at 2:56 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some neat TFA inspired art in the Watterson style from Brian Kesinger:

Kylo and Darth
Poe and Finn
Spaceman Finn
Rey and BB-8
Further adventures of Spaceman Finn
Your side of the family
Poe and Ren
posted by nubs at 3:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

The Force Awakens - what deleted scenes might we see?
posted by Mezentian at 3:47 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

On my second viewing I definitely yelled out "TWELVE!" along with Han.

I yelled that out on first viewing, because COME ON!

When does Boyega say "Droid, please"?
posted by crossoverman at 5:23 PM on January 12, 2016

When he's trying to get BB-8 to reveal the location of the resistance base. He's genuinely pleading, it's not like the Star Wars version of "bitch please."
posted by wabbittwax at 5:53 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

In a new interview, Colin Trevorrow talked about Rey’s parents, Luke, Leia as well as the legacy of his installment (Episode IX).

Also, This Interview With the Guy Who Played Jar Jar Binks Is Tragic as Hell, if you want to feel sad for Best (who will not reprise his role as Jar Jar again in the new trilogy). I do feel sorry for him, as much as I hate Jar Jar.
posted by Mezentian at 7:15 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Interesting that they are considering Episode IX in the context of the entire series and putting Rey at the centre of that. I suppose that probably means she's a Skywalker.
posted by crossoverman at 8:51 PM on January 12, 2016

Oh I almost forgot, Thing 3:
I have seen mention unthread about how Luke is standing next to a grave/grave marker with speculation of who is buried. What if no one is buried there and is more symbolic... Of Han OR Ben Solo's death? Luke would have probably felt Han's death (the way Leia did) and would have felt Ben's "death" by being triumphed over by the Dark Side/Kylo Ren. It did see to me that Luke was freshly grieving with red rimmed eyes.
posted by like_neon at 12:25 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

I got my Visual Dictionary in the post today.

In the grand tradition of crap Star Wars names, we have The Dengue Sisters! (Presumably in Maz's bar).
RP-G0 has a "Burtt" acoustic signaller and ME-8D9 has a, erm, "pelvic servomotor" - and that's just on the splash pages!

Further on, it explains the Resistance/First Order (kinda) and a map of the galaxy implies that Starkiller Base could in no way blow up Hosnian Prime and be seen on Takodana unless the blast could be seen literally half way across the galaxy.

Also, Poe's flight jacket has "non-regulation tailoring", because Poe just don't give a fuck about your rules.
posted by Mezentian at 5:00 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

RP-G0 has a "Burtt" acoustic signaller

For obvious reasons.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:37 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

(IMAX 2D! So good.)

Super jealous! I was all excited when I realized that one of the 70mm IMAX 2D prints was actually playing in my city, but then I remembered that the theater is an OMNI screen so everything would be weird and stretched out. I really wish IMAX 2D was a more common thing.
posted by kmz at 6:06 AM on January 13, 2016

I mean, considering that one of the few things they do bother to explain is that Hosnian is far from the First Order and Starkiller was only able to strike it because the lasers travel faster than light, they shouldn't have been able to see the explosions for years regardless.

I figure between all the hyperspace flight and the Force that causality in the Star Wars universe is completely fucked. Besides, there's sound in space so I'm assuming some sort of luminous aether? For all we know there is no maximum possible velocity. We already know that the Force works instantaneously, so general relativity probably doesn't hold anyway.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 6:42 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

(IMAX 2D! So good.)

Super jealous!

And it was in the London Science Museum! They had a funny little intro with an animation of Chewbacca with an English accent boasting that they were the only British cinema to show it in 70mm. I've never really geeked out over film formats before but this made me really appreciate how it can impact the experience.

During the first millenium falcon/TIE fighter chase I found myself actually gripping the armrest and letting out a breath at the end of the scene.
posted by like_neon at 7:02 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

some sort of luminous aether?

Star Wars is not Spelljammer!
But the science might be the same.
posted by Mezentian at 7:23 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

It seems clear to me that a few of the scenes take place during the massacre led by Kylo Ren, you see Luke touching R2-D2. But if this is Luke's memory why is he viewing himself in the third person?

I think it's safer to see what Rey's sees as simply visions of things that happened and will happen via the Force, rather than memories.

mean, considering that one of the few things they do bother to explain is that Hosnian is far from the First Order and Starkiller was only able to strike it because the lasers travel faster than light, they shouldn't have been able to see the explosions for years regardless.

Doesn't the novelization kind of wave some form of hyperspace mumbo jumbo to explain all that?
posted by Atreides at 7:29 AM on January 13, 2016

It did see to me that Luke was freshly grieving with red rimmed eyes.

There's that but he did also feel the billions of people killed by the hyperspace planet-buster too. Like Obi-Wan did in the first movie.
posted by immlass at 7:33 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]

Doesn't the novelization kind of wave some form of hyperspace mumbo jumbo to explain all that?

There's sound in space and all sorts of other physically impossible things. We go to movies to be entertained, and frankly, being able to break the laws of science fits that bill.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:36 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

It did see to me that Luke was freshly grieving with red rimmed eyes.

There's that but he did also feel the billions of people killed by the hyperspace planet-buster too. Like Obi-Wan did in the first movie.
posted by immlass at 7:33 AM on January 13 [+] [!]

He misses his friends.
posted by gc at 8:26 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Events can be seen instantaneously (assuming they are bright enough/large enough) at any distance.
Communication happens instantaneously at any distance.
Causality happens instantaneously at any distance.
Special abilities (Force, telepathy, etc.) happen instantaneously at any distance.
If transporters/teleporters/etc. exist, teleportation happens instantaneously at any distance that the device is capable of teleporting.
There is a universal time standard that applies equally everywhere in the universe.

However, this runs into trouble when we consider mass-energy conversion, E=mc². If c is infinite, then a single electron-positron annihilation generates infinite energy. Particle physics as we know it goes out the window. You probably don't even have atoms. Therefore:

2. The "c" of E=mc² is not the infinite speed of light, but a value roughly equal to c in our universe.

2a. When characters talk about "lightspeed" or "the speed of light," especially in reference to travelling faster than it, they're actually referring to the c of mass-energy conversion, and not the infinite speed of light which applies in their universe.

2b. Travelling faster than c requires special technology (which may be called things like "FTL engines," "warp drive," "hyperdrive," etc.), much as breaking the sound barrier required novel aerodynamic designs in our world, but is not physically impossible. Also there are cool visual effects.

[There are probably Reasons why the "c" of mass-energy conversion has to be the same as the "c" of the universal speed limit under relativity, but I don't understand relativity well enough to know what they are, so I'll ignore them.]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:53 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

There are probably Reasons why the "c" of mass-energy conversion has to be the same as the "c" of the universal speed limit under relativity

The Reasons are that these various statements are all corners of a single mathematical theory which describes space and time. c is the universal speed limit because motion distorts space-time. c is in the mass-energy equation because mass also distorts space-time, and it turns out mass and motion are closely related. As you travel faster and faster you actually become more massive, so that it becomes harder to accelerate more; at the speed of light itself anything with a nonzero rest mass has infinite relativistic mass, which is why it can't accelerate any further. Similarly, a zero in the denominator is why rest-massless entities like photons not only travel at the speed of light, it is impossible for them to travel at any other speed.

The math is very clear that nothing with or without mass can move through space-time faster than c; there is simply no way around this which is consistent with the Universe looking the way it does. Most SFnal treatments of FTL travel involve leaving space-time and traveling around it, either to another part of space-time which is folded near you in a higher dimension or through another medium where the rules are different. I assume the FX associated with lightspeed travel in Star Wars, Trek, etc. are meant to convey the idea of shifting from normal space to this "hyperspace" where FTL is possible.

Realistically, though, it's hard to imagine normal matter existing in such a different medium since matter itself depends on the rules of space-time to exist. Atoms are held together by electromagnetic forces which are also closely related to c and mass-energy. But it's an easier elephant to swallow than stuff moving FTL within our own space-time, where that possibility would make almost everything else we know impossible. One could posit that a "bubble" of our space-time breaks off and, with a ship stationary within that bubble of normal space-time, the bubble itself travels through another medium to be rejoined with the rest of the Universe at its destination. In fact I am pretty sure this is the explicit backstory in the Trek universe.

Anyway, any form of believable FTL involves both leaving and re-entering normal space-time; the math is very, very consistent that matter, energy, and even information cannot travel faster than c within space-time. One would assume that both leaving and re-entering space-time would be dramatic events. Which is why the idea of shooting lasers through hyperspace or seeing things light-years away in real time simply does not hold. What makes the energy re-enter space-time so it can interact with normal matter to blow it up or impress itself on your retinas? It would make much more sense that dumb particles traveling in such a realm would blow right past normal matter the way dark matter and neutrinos do.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:25 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

This explains the preference for Parsecs over lightyears.

(Note that if bounded by lightspeed the Kessel Run would take 40+ years to complete)
posted by Artw at 10:51 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

I would be more willing to just roll with “the speed of light is treated as infinite” had they not JUST SAID in the movie that the speed of light is finite and limiting. Yeah, there's not really sound in space, but not even in the depths of Episode II did a Star Wars character declare “space is totally silent!” as a plot point right before we heard a TIE Fighter scream by.

Plus the size of the visible explosions in the sky (and the spread between them) was clearly wrong. Not in a “science says it would happen differently” way but in a “we all see stars on a regular basis and that's not how it looks” way. Between the two I immediately put that scene in my “JJ Abrams can't figure out distances” folder alongside the Star Trek reboot's supernova.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:54 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

It would have made more sense to have people see the destruction of the Hosnian system on a viewscreen somewhere. Having it in the sky was a poor choice.

Also making Starkiller sun-powered was a really bad idea. In the novelization it's powered by dark matter, which makes more sense, sort of. I guess dark matter is not visually compelling. But sucking up the sun is just weird.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:29 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Honestly y'all, as soon as you admit that the Starkiller Base idea, plot, and execution was just terrible and pretend it never happened, you'll be much more satisfied with the film. At most, just pretend it was larger Death Star, that could fire off rapid shots without recharging and all is well.

There, now that's solved, we can discuss import things like whether Rey and Finn will be become a couple.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:34 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Interesting that they are considering Episode IX in the context of the entire series and putting Rey at the centre of that. I suppose that probably means she's a Skywalker.

Nah, I don't think so, I think they will actually use Rey to not make it all about the Skywalkers. Having the whole, 9-part story be the story of the Skywalker family was George Lucas's specific vision, and is a closed narrative arc.

I think that, given his obvious unhappiness with where the story arc is going ('it's supposed to be a story about a family'); Disney's need to set up future stories (that take place all along the timeline of the SW Universe), requiring an open narrative arc; and the undeniable symmetry it would create within the 9-part core story, that Rey is most likely a Kenobi. Given the internal clues in the film, I definitely think it the most likely possibility.

It definitely would be the most satisfying. That potential narrative symmetry is what gets me, if Rey is a Kenobi then we have:

1. Kenobi trains Skywalker, fails (Anakin/Vader)
2. Kenobi starts next Skywalker on quest, who succeeds (Luke)
3. Skywalker trains next Skywalker, fails (Ben)
4. Kenobi (Rey) starts Skywalker on quest once again, leading to...
5. Skywalker trains Kenobi, succeeds (Rey)
posted by LooseFilter at 11:41 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

as soon as you admit that the Starkiller Base idea, plot, and execution was just terrible and pretend it never happened, you'll be much more satisfied with the film.

So completely disagree, and very sorry you're so dissatisfied with the plot of the film; but please stop telling me I'm supposed to think it's terrible. I think the creative choices to parallel the original film were actually very smart for several reasons, all of which have been discussed/linked to upthread. I think those decisions worked really well, and allowed for creative focus on other, more important things this episode really needed to accomplish.

But we clearly must agree to disagree w/r/t our opinions on this. Just please stop telling me that mine is wrong.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:47 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Most SFnal treatments of FTL travel involve leaving space-time and traveling around it, either to another part of space-time which is folded near you in a higher dimension or through another medium where the rules are different.

The problem there is that anything that effectively accomplishes FTL travel, even if it avoids literal FTL travel via warp bubble, spacetime folding, or other technobabble, wreaks havoc with causality.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:02 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Maybe a deStarkillerized edition of TFA will show up on torrents next year
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:24 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

If Rey is a Kenobi (she's not), then how can they address that given the Jedi code of the prequels? Either Kenobi is a hypocritical dick and/or he abandoned a child? I guess what I'm saying is I will accept this if they immediately reboot the prequels. (It's Jedi KNIGHTS, not Jedi MONKS, George.)
posted by entropicamericana at 12:38 PM on January 13, 2016

But we clearly must agree to disagree w/r/t our opinions on this. Just please stop telling me that mine is wrong.

Oh, it's not a YOU thing, but clearly others are bothered by various aspects of Starkiller Base, but trying to make it all fit into the realm believably isn't working, so letting it go or just ignoring might be a better solution.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:40 PM on January 13, 2016

Space isn't real.
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

If Rey is a Kenobi (she's not), then how can they address that given the Jedi code of the prequels? Either Kenobi is a hypocritical dick and/or he abandoned a child?

Obi-Wan leaves Anakin to die in agonizing pain on Mustafar after manipulating Padme into transporting him there, then years later lies left and right to Luke to get him to sign on board with going to Alderaan and becoming a Jedi.

He's not, like, some squeaky-clean white knight. Anakin kind of forces him into the role of the buzzkill straight man because Anakin is such a fucking loose cannon, but who is Obi-Wan's canonical best non-Jedi buddy? Some shifty alien who owns a diner and knows a lot about murder weapons.

The prequels do not portray the Jedi Order and its code as unfailingly right and correct and just, and they clearly show that Obi-Wan -- and his mentor, Qui-Gon -- break the code whenever they feel justified in doing so, basically.

Fathering a child is a bridge too far?

#TeamReyKenobi
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:55 PM on January 13, 2016 [12 favorites]

If Rey is a Kenobi (she's not), then how can they address that given the Jedi code of the prequels?

Every Jedi except Ben and Yoda was dead, so it's not like there was anybody around to call him out on it.

Also, character flaws like that are precisely what interesting stories are built from.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:56 PM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

That potential narrative symmetry is what gets me, if Rey is a Kenobi then we have:

1. Kenobi trains Skywalker, fails (Anakin/Vader)
2. Kenobi starts next Skywalker on quest, who succeeds (Luke)
3. Skywalker trains next Skywalker, fails (Ben)
4. Kenobi (Rey) starts Skywalker on quest once again, leading to...
5. Skywalker trains Kenobi, succeeds (Rey)

It's like poetry, it rhymes! :)

The prequels do not portray the Jedi Order and its code as unfailingly right and correct and just, and they clearly show that Obi-Wan -- and his mentor, Qui-Gon -- break the code whenever they feel justified in doing so, basically.

Fathering a child is a bridge too far?

Further, by the time Obi-Wan goes into exile on Tatooine, the Jedi have functionally ceased to exist - the Temple is destroyed, the Order pretty much wiped out, and while the Jedi code forbids certain things (marriage, love, strong attachments of any kind), would Obi-Wan consider it still applicable to him in those circumstances? Or does he just become Ben Kenobi, unacknowledged hero of the Clone Wars, who went into Mos Eisley one night and met someone?

He could also have cloned himself, or been cloned without his knowledge, or Rey could be someone else entirely. Rey Palpatine, anyone?
posted by nubs at 1:25 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I agree re: flaws, but it seems like there should be some sort of text or subtext in the existing flicks. I guess you could argue the "certain POV" thing and "there is another" thing, but it would feel bolted-on to me.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:30 PM on January 13, 2016

I forgot the part where he dismembers a drunk asshole in a bar after we've just established he can easily defuse conflict via subtle mind tricks.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:34 PM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]

Either Kenobi is a hypocritical dick and/or he abandoned a child?

Can you blame him? It gets cold on Tattoine.*

*It may not actually get cold on Tattoine.
posted by drezdn at 1:36 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think Rey is Luke's daughter, but I love the idea of her being descended from Kenobi. We know from the Clone Wars that Kenobi had a romantic interest in a Mandalorian dutchess named Satine, allegedly one which never became physical. I don't think it's impossible that he could fall into a relationship with someone again and in the bleakness of being one of the last Jedi, given in to his emotions and consummate the relationship. A child is born of that relationship who then becomes the parent of Rey.

The timelines get squeezed tight, though, based on Rey's age, and would probably work better if the relationship happened prior to Anakin's downfall. Which....makes things sketchy on that end of the spectrum.
posted by Atreides at 1:37 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

...And I know the Vader = Anakin (spoiler!) thing was bolted-on, but it doesn't feel like it, in part because there so little existing continuity at the time, in part because it's a great idea, and because of that pause Alec Guinness gives when Luke asks Obi-Wan about his father.

The Leia = sister thing was bolted-on , feels bolted-on, and is (rightfully) criticized for being bolted-on.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:38 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

It sure gets lonely. Tusken raiders make for poor company and Jawas only like you if you're a droid.
posted by numaner at 1:38 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Or maybe Rey is of a family we have yet to know, in this galaxy far, far away a long time ago. Would certainly make the galaxy feel like a larger place.

I'm starting to warm to my Rey Palpatine idea, personally. We really have no idea what Palpy did in his spare time...
posted by nubs at 1:44 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

maybe one of Padme's handmaidens was Palpatine's second cousin or something

maybe things got real boring waiting in that Nubian cruiser for Qui-Gon et al to dick around with podraces and chosen ones and midichlorian counts when they were supposed to just pick up some hyperdrive parts

maybe Rey is a Kenobi and a Palpatine
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:54 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]

I kinda really want this shirt.
posted by numaner at 2:47 PM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]

The problem there is that anything that effectively accomplishes FTL travel, even if it avoids literal FTL travel via warp bubble, spacetime folding, or other technobabble, wreaks havoc with causality.

This is true but it's more subtle than believing that the laws of relativity and electromagnetism are flawed enough to permit FTL within space-time. It is at least possible to imagine the Universe looking the way it does if causality can be occasionally violated; in fact there are quantum effects which seem to require the instantaneous FTL transmission of information, although they only seem to work in ways that conveniently avoid the causality problem. It is not necessarily a deal-killer if FTL requires some of the qualities of time travel, since that's another commonly accepted SF trope anyway.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:13 PM on January 13, 2016

Don't you need some sort of ether as a Force-carrier? That way when yoda force-lifts an X-wing his central nervous system doesn't shoot out his nose.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:17 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

It is not necessarily a deal-killer if FTL requires some of the qualities of time travel, since that's another commonly accepted SF trope anyway.

Oh god no. No timetravel, implications of FTL be damned.
posted by Artw at 4:25 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Reminder for Artw: The directors of Episode VIII and IX both have time travel movies in the somewhat limited feature film credits.
posted by entropicamericana at 4:44 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

And that's one, maybe two perfectly fine movies, but they can keep it out of Wars.
posted by Artw at 4:49 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

In the outer rim territories they don't need roads.

If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 12 parsecs... you're gonna see some serious shit.

Search your feelings. You know it to be true. It is your density.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:19 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Last night, Darth Vader came down from Planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out, that he'd melt my brain.

The connections are already baked right in. I'm calling it: Rey is a McFly.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:25 PM on January 13, 2016 [11 favorites]

“Star Wars: The Fandom Awakens,” Alex Brown, Tor, 13 January 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 6:49 PM on January 13, 2016

maybe Rey is a Kenobi and a Palpatine

Guys , guys... I've figured it out! So Obi-wan and Palpatine's second cousin had a kid. A daughter. Obi-wan secretly brings her up on Tatooine. Years later, Luke Skywalker goes back to Tatooine to visit the remains of his old house, and is overcome by emotion, when he meets some girl that reminds him of somebody, and things happen. Rey is a Palpatine, Kenobi, and a Skywalker!

Now if I can just figure out how to add Han Solo into the mix
posted by destrius at 6:50 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

All this talk about a not-so-squeaky-clean Ben Kenobi just makes me want the Auralnauts versions of the prequels to be the new prequel canon.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:20 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

destrius: Han was the paid surrogate.

Bur srsly guys, while I am as #teamreykenobe as the best of them, you get that she's like twenty and he's been dead for like thirty years, right? So, related, sure, but not daughter. #uncleben
posted by Iteki at 7:50 PM on January 13, 2016

The theory I've heard is that Rey is Obi-Wan's granddaughter, not his daughter.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:53 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

you get that she's like twenty and he's been dead for like thirty years, right?

Do they not have frozen sperm in a galaxy far, far away?

Admittedly, that is a most convoluted, crackpot theory, but it does make the facts fit a pre-determined outcome.
posted by Mezentian at 9:41 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father" works for me when it comes to Obi-Wan having offspring or clones. Obi-Wan went from apprentice to master only through dead man's boots and Anakin was his first (overaged!) pupil. He was a Jedi, no doubt, but I never felt like he was a paragon of Jedi-ness.

#TeamReyKenobi
posted by Molesome at 2:08 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens - VFX Breakdown
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:40 AM on January 14, 2016 [6 favorites]

Still lots of greenscreen but good to see there's fair amounts of real set, too. And real explosions! Real crashed TIE! Turns out if you build real stuff it looks more real! Who knew.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:44 AM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

Alan Rickman will NOT be in Star Wars.
Ever.
posted by Mezentian at 6:36 AM on January 14, 2016

If he had been, it'd only lead to questions about Ben Solo's true parentage anyway.
posted by radwolf76 at 6:52 AM on January 14, 2016 [8 favorites]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens - VFX Breakdown

Impressive. Most impressive. I like how they had Adam Driver play the Ren scenes without the mask, then digitally placed the mask on him in post. It lends a subtle touch to the character's body language that really helped.

And real explosions are always great to work with, as an actor.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:58 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have no problem believing that the Empire or its remnants would build a bigger, badder planet-sized superweapon, but I can't help wishing Disney had subverted expectations, and let the base fall into Resistance hands instead of blowing it up. Such a lost opportunity.

It would've been delightful to see General Leia stride into the occupied Starkiller base as a conqueror, grief hardened into steely resolve, and for us to get a shot of her standing in a busy control room, taking command.

What will the Resistance do with a weapon so powerful it can only commit genocide? How tempting would it be for General Leia to destroy entire Imperial planets without losing a single ship? To end the galactic stalemate between the Empire and the Republic? To get revenge for her own beautiful Alderaan? For her son? For Han? It would've given her her own temptation arc to mirror Luke's, and pushed us to somewhere interesting Star Wars hasn't been before.

Does the Resistance have the strength of conviction to destroy an Imperial superweapon once they've captured it? Should they? What a great thing to think and talk about for the two years until the next film.
posted by Missiles K. Monster at 7:14 AM on January 14, 2016 [25 favorites]

I think Rey is Luke's daughter, but I love the idea of her being descended from Kenobi.

If Obi-wan is still riding around in Luke's head, maybe in a way both of them are her dad!

I maintain that a "Force ghost" isn't a free floating entity capable of surviving by itself, but requires a living host, because: 1. Obi-wan only lets Vader kill him after he sees Luke and knows he'll be able to transfer; 2. Luke only ever sees the ghosts of people who have died in front of him; 3. George Lucas loved Dune almost too much.

Anyway, saw TFA the other day, had mixed feelings. First half was pretty good, great in parts. Then child of child of Death Star (great-grandchild of Droid Control Station - Lucas was wrong; TFA is a film about a family, just the wrong family) mooned into view and reminded me that I was in the hands of the guy who made that shithouse Star Trek reboot and its grim, soulless sequel.

I remember watching Star Wars on TV when I was a little kid and being absolutely transfixed by the space battle at the end - the rebel fighters tiny against the great, grey plane of the technological/existential terror of the Death Star, their pilots' voices garbled by its magnetic field, their shields useless against the remorseless TIEs swatting them out of the sky like moths. When they blew it up it wasn't just crazy luck; everyone had to work for it, and you saw them do it. The rebels brought the ships and pilots, Leia and the droids brought the plans, Han's character arc brought the Falcon, Luke brought the conviction and force-enhanced womp rat pest control skills and the spirit of Obi-wan brought the judgement of the cosmos.

In TFA, everyone except Finn hits the ground already winning. There's backstory to explain why they're already super-pilots/super-pilots who are also technical geniuses with incredible latent force powers/resistance leaders/legendary smugglers, but if it didn't happen in one of the previous films you don't get to see it happen now. You just see them roll the dice against crazy odds again and again - skimming the TIE fighter along the bottom of the Star Destroyer, aiming the Falcon's laser turret with the main flight controls, that ridiculous assault on the "power oscillator" that turns into an incoherent swarm of fighters buzzing around zapping each other while they wait for the events of 40 years ago to happen again, the inexplicable 3-person strike team taking on a whole planet, the way the shields got taken down, Rey's repressed force powers levelling up at just the right time, the cracks in the ground opening up at just the right place - and unless the plot is against them, they win. In a word, it's glib. Fun, too! But kind of empty.

Still, better than the prequels.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 7:22 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

If Obi-wan is still riding around in Luke's head, maybe in a way both of them are her dad!

OBI-WAN: Let go, Luke.
LUKE: BEN YOU ARE MAKING THIS SO FUCKING WEIRD

I maintain that a "Force ghost" isn't a free floating entity capable of surviving by itself, but requires a living host

There's a deleted scene from RotS where Qui-Gon's ghost speaks to Yoda and delivers an absolutely horrific infodump of Force-lore. If that scene ever becomes canon in some future special edition of the prequels, that would invalidate the theory that Force ghosts can only appear to people who watched them die. Otherwise, that makes sense!

the inexplicable 3-person strike team taking on a whole planet

This bugged me more than the Xtreme Death Star concept itself; the scale of the assault, both on the ground and in the air, was just completely wrong, it felt totally incommensurate with what was at stake.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:02 AM on January 14, 2016 [8 favorites]

...Rey's repressed force powers levelling up at just the right time...

I liked the suggestion (in one of the pieces linked upthread, but damned if I can tell you which one, sorry) that Ren's trying to force-read her mind either unlocked her force abilities or broke open some wall set up to hide her early force training. For me that turns the timing from too-easy to perfect.
posted by Mchelly at 9:25 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

the scale of the assault, both on the ground and in the air, was just completely wrong, it felt totally incommensurate with what was at stake.

I think, given what we've learned about the state of things in the collateral materials (Resistance is small & tiny without the Republic fleet to back them up) it was the best they could do - but the film could've made that clearer. I mean, there's no doubt in ANH that Yavin is it and the small fighter attack is all the Rebellion has; that isn't as clear as it should be in TFA. It should feel like a more desperate toss of the dice and last ditch than it does, and that's because in the film's effort to avoid much of the politics of the prequels, we don't have a clear view of the state of things in terms of who has what capacity.
posted by nubs at 9:33 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Dad Joke Han Solo

According to the Daily Dot people wants Anthony Ingruber to play young Han Solo. I didn't recognize him at all even though I did see Age of Adeline last year but at the time I do remember thinking "man that dude looks just like a young Harrison Ford".
posted by numaner at 10:21 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

The impression I got from ANH wasn't so much that Yavin was it but that the Rebellion was really decentralized -- the term Rebel Alliance itself implies disparate groups working together for a common cause. So it makes sense two movies later when they basically gather up all they've got at Sullust to plan for one big final push to destroy the second Death Star and kill the Emperor, and you see all these different starfighters and capital ships and there's a big Mon Calamari contingent and a leader we've never seen before (which makes sense! Why would Mon Mothma hang out at the same base as Leia, one of the other leaders? Same principle as the designated survivor not attending the state of the union address!). It's the full military might of the Alliance, all assembled together for the first and last time.

In TFA they've been really clear (in the books at least, it's vague in the movie) that no, the Resistance is tiny, this is it, which is sort of weird since the Republic is supposed to be supporting them under the table, but whatever -- they're small as a gang of space pirates. Okay. But the movie doesn't really leverage their tininess into anything meaningful -- their dozen ace pilots are more than sufficient to penetrate the defenses of a doomsday machine the size of an entire planet, and they pretty much succeed in blowing it up just by shooting at it a lot. The movie even lampshades it by giving Han and Finn laugh lines about how there's always a way to blow it up, let's just go in and use the Force, ha ha, nobody is the least bit worried about any of this, superweapons are silly lol. At least RotJ fully committed to the seriousness of the threat posed by the second Death Star, even if trotting it out again was cheesy.

Oh well, it is what it is! I just hope the next installment has a space battle cool enough to stand alongside the ones in the original trilogy.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:28 AM on January 14, 2016 [5 favorites]

Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish: Yeah, there's not really sound in space, but not even in the depths of Episode II did a Star Wars character declare “space is totally silent!” as a plot point right before we heard a TIE Fighter scream by.

I think that was actually the TIE Fighter pilot making sounds with his (or her) mouth to add some excitement to the scene, like Ewan McGregor making light saber sounds, as mentioned upthread.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:46 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

prize bull octorok: Maybe a deStarkillerized edition of TFA will show up on torrents next year

Next year? A fan edited The Hobbit trilogy into a single film a bit more than a month after the final film debuted (likely source: DVD screener). Give the geeks some credit, I'm sure fan editors are already working on cuts based on crappy cam versions of this film.

> While I can't think of any specifically quotable lines in this one after the fact (no "scruffy looking nerf herder" stuff)

> That's not how the Force works!

And now it's on a shirt via Woot.com.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:04 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

According to the Daily Dot people wants Anthony Ingruber to play young Han Solo.

So yeah, he seems to have been auditioning for this part for years now, and he really does have the look of a young Harrison Ford. He does a pretty good imitation of Ford's vocal mannerisms and does other other impressions too. He's got a lot of potential if he can turn the imitation into actual acting.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:16 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm finally to the end of the thread, after days of intermittent reading.

I generally get sucked into movies pretty deeply, and I don't look too critically at the story and creation until afterwords. But there was one thing that bothered me, best said by needled way upthread, and repeated by corb:

needled: One aspect of Finn's characterization bothered me - it is my understanding that he broke away from the First Order after his first experience with death in battle, especially the death of another stormtrooper (the one whose blood marked Finn's helmet). But then just a short while later he is indiscriminately killing First Order stormtroopers and officers in his escape with Poe, and for the rest of the movie doesn't seem very bothered about all the killing he is doing.

corb: Then Finn has someone he cares about , who dies, which must imply he has friends and companionship. Then you have him shoot his brothers without a qualm, just so he can get away from...shooting innocent people without a qualm?

Faint of Butt replied: There's a difference between being ordered to execute prisoners and fighting back against people who are actively trying to kill you.

But he goes from staggering around a scene of indiscriminately killing civilians, then shooting faceless storm troopers and getting excited that he made the deadly shots. But in the book, as noted by Brandon Blatcher, Finn is flagged for having "dangerous level of empathy."

I know, I know, the novelization has expanded upon the movie in ways that actually conflict with the movie, but I was hoping for some more internal conflict from a storm trooper who turned his back on being a soldier but had to fight (and kill) to survive.

One thing that I've seen online that I wish I hadn't seen - obsession about Finn being a traitor. In my moments of mindlessness, I browse Imgur, and I've seen some "traitor" image sets and GIFs that look to be almost overtly racist. To that, I really hope we see more storm troopers with their helmets off and find that many (or all) are people of color, as mentioned upthread.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:26 AM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

In A New Hope, they fly small fighters against the Death Star because Imperial designers discounted the possibility of a fighter attack and inadvertently left a vulnerability that could only be exploited by small fighters.

In Return of the Jedi, they fly small fighters (and a small freighter) because only they are able to go inside the incomplete structure to make it to the power core.

In The Force Awakens they are trying to destroy a large armored structure on the surface of a planet that could easily be targeted by capitol ships. They send in a squadron of small fighters for reasons that aren't really explained in the movie.
posted by ckape at 11:29 AM on January 14, 2016 [4 favorites]

As far ad we know, the Resistance doesn't have any capital ships, the Republic fleet was destroyed, and there were planetary shields anyway (like at Hoth and Endor).
posted by EndsOfInvention at 11:35 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yup, that was my impression, too - those little fighters are all the Resistance has at this point. Remember six (or so) were shot down and that was half of what they had? They're a really small group at this point.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:38 AM on January 14, 2016

I've seen this speculation about Finn's story, too. It's true, the turnaround is weird the second you stop and think about it.
posted by PussKillian at 11:48 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

They probably assumed it was safe because there were so many first order sympathizers in the senate that it wouldn't be worth destroying and/or first order sympathizers made them purposely concentrate in one easy to explode place.
posted by sandswipe at 11:50 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

One way I've rationalized Finn's ease into killing fellow stormtroopers, which begins the minute they climb into the TIE to escape, is that Finn has to come to the conclusion that he knows them well enough that there is no other choice if he wants to be free. Pulling that thought along, every time he faces the First Order, it ceases to be 'that's my old gang of friends!' but a blow against those who would take my freedom. After all, on one level, we have a person of African descent fighting against individuals who exist with the sole identity of white armor, fighting to be free of their control.

Further more, one can also point to the fact that Finn may be horrified with those he once called friends. He didn't pull the trigger in the village, but everyone else did. It's waking up and realizing that your family is composed of blood thirsty monsters.

In The Force Awakens they are trying to destroy a large armored structure on the surface of a planet that could easily be targeted by capitol ships. They send in a squadron of small fighters for reasons that aren't really explained in the movie.

Or they learned their lesson from the Second Death Star, if a super weapon is operational, don't commit capital ships which can be blown up well in advance of reaching the target. Ackbar was at that battle and he was fully prepared to retreat in defeat the second one of the Mon Cal ships disintegrated before his eyes because the Death Star was fully operational.

There's also the point that we don't know if the Resistance even has capital ships. The only times we hear about a fleet, which presumably includes capital ships, it's related back to the Republic. C-3PO in alarmist mode pretty much says," Without the Republic's fleet, we're doomed!" So it could be that an attack with anything other than X-wings was simply not feasible. Was that disclosed at all in anyway in the movie? Nah, that part is true.

On preview, argh, someone comes in to your office and your point is made twice...
posted by Atreides at 11:59 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

I do understand from the supplemental material that's been mentioned here that what we see of the Resistance is pretty much all there is, but I don't think they made that clear in the movie. Would have been nice if they got Finn or Han (who for the sake of storytelling can be unfamiliar with the strength of the Resistance) to suggest capitol ships only to get the response, "What capitol ships? This is all we got."
posted by ckape at 12:00 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

In other news, if you watch Girls and choose to kind of fuzz out the details it works pretty well as backstory for Kylo Ren.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:08 PM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

One way I've rationalized Finn's ease into killing fellow stormtroopers, which begins the minute they climb into the TIE to escape

Still, I was flinching a little at that particular scene because Finn shot at them in a Tie Fighter, which is essentially using an Anti-Aircraft gun to shoot at infantry. Those guys would have been shredded. Or totally burned? (Whatever happens when a blaster bolt hits you)
posted by FJT at 12:21 PM on January 14, 2016

One way I've rationalized Finn's ease into killing fellow stormtroopers, which begins the minute they climb into the TIE to escape, is that Finn has to come to the conclusion that he knows them well enough that there is no other choice if he wants to be free. Pulling that thought along, every time he faces the First Order, it ceases to be 'that's my old gang of friends!' but a blow against those who would take my freedom. After all, on one level, we have a person of African descent fighting against individuals who exist with the sole identity of white armor, fighting to be free of their control.

In the book Before the Awakening, Finn is depicted as always caring about his four man team, even at the expense of jeopardizing the mission (in training). But he's so awesome, he manages to look after his team and complete the training mission usually. But he's constantly given shit for looking after Slip, one of his team who is always messing up. Slip was always on the outside with others, because they felt he was holding them back. Finn felt Slip was worth protecting, because it was his team.

The village on Jakku was their first actual combat assignment. But before that, Finn and his team had done guard duty on a planet where workers were hoping to, essentially, unionize. Captain Phasma had managed to arrange a meeting with the leaders of the rebellion and took Finn's team with her into the negotiations. Once there, she ordered the team to kill the rebels. Everyone pulled the trigger except Finn, who was confused why they were killing them when they had the rebels at the negotiating table, along with the upper hand.

Slip pulled the trigger in that incident and gained acceptance by other troopers. Finn felt more alone and isolated because the person he had protected for so long got acceptance by doing the killing. Then the team was shipped off to the Jakku village and everyone else was game for more killing. Finn was not, obviously.

With that background, I hope Finn's willingness to kill other Stormtroopers makes sense. But even without that information, his actions didn't bother me. It was clear he wasn't down with slaughtering innocents or combatants for no reason. Once he made the choice to escape, there was literally nothing he could do but end up killing some other troopers. According Before the Awakening, he was ok with killing and was a very good soldier. Once he made his decision there was nothing to do but follow through.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:48 PM on January 14, 2016 [6 favorites]

Marvel to start an ongoing series about Poe Dameron before TFA. Written by the guy who did Lando (great read) and the art by the guy who did Chewbacca (great art). So more info on our new favorite X-Wing pilot!
posted by Atreides at 1:54 PM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

I look forward to the harrowing tale of when his squadmates Dipsy, Laa-Laa, and Tinky Winky were shot down by TIE fighters, leaving him the only survivor to carry on their legacy.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:09 PM on January 14, 2016 [14 favorites]

BREAKING: THE BREAD IS REAL.
posted by thesmallmachine at 6:06 PM on January 14, 2016 [17 favorites]

Now I think about it, in the years since the end of ROTJ the remnants of the empire have had time to make another, say, four or five Death Stars, each one no doubt bigger and deathier than the last. That's why the resistance attack on the latest version seems so perfunctory - they've had so much practice blowing these things up that now they can do it on muscle memory.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 6:43 PM on January 14, 2016 [4 favorites]

Slip's real name was FN-2003, but he got the nickname because not even stormtroopers can reliably refer to people as license plates. He was like a little brother to Finn (despite the killing). He's also the dying stormtrooper Finn cradled during the attack on Jakku. Slip fucked up until the very end. :(
posted by Anonymous at 11:17 PM on January 14, 2016

So the insta-bread was a practical effect not CGI

Edit to note I missed thesmallmachine above... there's an video interview with the sfx guys in the Indie story I linked to
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:27 AM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why not just evacuate the Resistance base and move to the next planet on their list? I mean, if you've got time to fly a bunch of x-wings to starkiller base, you've got time for everyone to run away. But no, everyone who's not a tie fighter pilot, including the whole command structure, just go to their underground bunkers to await incineration. The rebellion made the same dumb mistake way back in ANH, of course, but had figured out that running away was a great strategy by ESB (and that was when Imperial capital ships were in the area and stood a good chance of destroying the escaping Rebel ships!)
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 6:17 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the idea is, in both movies, that if the mission is a failure, then the war is pretty much over. By the time Resistance/Rebellion could take another crack shot at X super weapon, there might not be anything left to save.
posted by Atreides at 6:29 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

“We moulded up an inflatable bread so that it was deflated underneath the liquid and then we slowly inflated it and sucked out the liquid with vacuum pumps at the same time to produce this bread coming up and forming.”

Damn, I was hoping for practical science that made the bread solid and edible. Still, serious kudos for real world FX.
posted by filthy light thief at 6:58 AM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why not just evacuate the Resistance base and move to the next planet on their list?

Duh, they JUST finished putting that new imported tile in the hanger, if they move all that work would have been for nothing!

Overall, it makes sense that the Resistance is so small at this point. The Republic is actually the government, but has been corrupted and infiltrated by the First Order (as seen in the books), so not a lot of support for all out war. It should grow with the power of Starkiller Base revealed. Destroying 3 or 4 planets in one swoop kinda makes you pick sides.

Damn, I was hoping for practical science that made the bread solid and edible. Still, serious kudos for real world FX

As a friend said upon reading the link: "3 months on that one effect, seen for all of 5 seconds at most, yet no one could think of anything better than a third Death Star?!"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:00 AM on January 15, 2016 [8 favorites]

Are all these in-thread references to the European Union some kind of oblique political metaphor for Star Wars narratives? What gives, folks?
posted by rocketman at 7:09 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I'm ruining the joke, I apologize, but EU = Expanded Universe (e.g. the vast swath of non-movie Star Wars stuff that's been written over the years -- books, comics, etc). There used to be a hard-to-follow and ever-shifting categorization of what was canon (e.g. actually counts for future movies), what was kinda canon, and what was effectively "what if" stories that have zero bearing on the movies.

Most of it was re-categorized as "Legends", post-Disney buy-out (meaning: "these are 'what if' stories, that happened in an alternate universe that we won't feel the need to make future movies jive with").
posted by tocts at 7:16 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

EU = European Union (e.g. the vast swath of non-military stuff that's been created over the years -- markets, parliaments, etc). There used to be a hard-to-follow and ever-shifting categorization of what was canon (e.g. actually counts for future diplomacy), what was kinda canon, and what was effectively "what if" stories that have zero bearing on the continent.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:42 AM on January 15, 2016 [10 favorites]

in the years since the end of ROTJ the remnants of the empire have had time to make another, say, four or five Death Stars, each one no doubt bigger and deathier than the last. That's why the resistance attack on the latest version seems so perfunctory - they've had so much practice blowing these things up that now they can do it on muscle memory.

I can just see the negotiations:

Republic: The Empire is over; surrender. You'll be treated fairly, but it's time for peace in the galaxy.
First Order: Never! All shall tremble before our latest weapon, the SuperHappyFunBall!
Republic: That's new, what's it do?
First Order: It blows up planets!
Republic: So, it's another Death Star then? You've just rebranded?
First Order: ....yes, yes it is
Republic: We'll go take care of that, then. Good name, though, pleased to see you are trying. See you back here in 3-6 months?

Similarly, my insight in the shower the other day was that the Death Star we see under construction at the end of RotS was not the one we see in ANH; it was the first attempt at a full-scale Death Star but it likely blew up while under construction or during a test firing of the main weapon; what we see in ANH is the first one that actually got to full working status before an accident (or sabotage) happened.
posted by nubs at 8:20 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

The scene at the end of ROTS definitely looked like the (non-canon!) Death Star Prototype.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:07 AM on January 15, 2016

Maybe in the next movie they can send two or three X-wings to blow up a 100x100 matrix of prototype Death Stars
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:12 AM on January 15, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'll defend Starkiller Base against "third Death Star" thing -- it's the same idea, yes, and I doubt they'll use it again, but the setup of a Death Star made of a gutted, sun-eating planet opens up storytelling possibilities that warp and remake the Star Wars we know: the day-to-night structure of the battle on the ground, with its seismic shift in mood; getting to combine "Endor Moon" stuff and "Luke and Vader on the Death Star" stuff in the same setting (without ROTJ's awkward separation of characters that made Han and Leia seem inessential); the big Hitler speech followed by the apocalyptic image of the actual earth behind the stormtroopers opening up and raining fire.

And Starkiller Base is a great metaphor for Kylo Ren, in the same way that the Death Star was a great metaphor for Vader. Instead of a blank, seamless killing machine whose humanity is buried deep within, it's a semblance of a living planet whose core has been hollowed out, replaced by fire and void. It's the Death Star turned inside out.
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:18 AM on January 15, 2016 [18 favorites]

I was thinking last night: How well-known is Kylo Ren's original identity? Did Leia and Han keep it a secret? Poe does not let on that he knows he's talking to their son, but that does not mean he doesn't know. Certainly, they did not tell Finn and Rey.

I'm leaning slightly toward it is a secret, and it occurs to me that's a pretty awkward secret to keep. "Where'd your son go?" "He died at Jedi camp."
posted by ignignokt at 9:29 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

And Starkiller Base is a great metaphor for Kylo Ren, in the same way that the Death Star was a great metaphor for Vader. Instead of a blank, seamless killing machine whose humanity is buried deep within, it's a semblance of a living planet whose core has been hollowed out, replaced by fire and void. It's the Death Star turned inside out.

That's a great perspective, and one of the things I do like about Starkiller Base is that it sucks light and life away; I think instead of a massive hyperspeed beam weapon, that should have been what the base is about - it comes into a system and destroys the sun, causing all life in the system to end.
posted by nubs at 9:47 AM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm leaning slightly toward it is a secret, and it occurs to me that's a pretty awkward secret to keep. "Where'd your son go?" "He died at Jedi camp."

"What happened to Ben?"

"A young Jedi named Kylo Ren, who was a pupil of Luke's until he turned to evil, helped the First Order hunt down and destroy the Jedi padawans. He betrayed and murdered my son."
posted by tobascodagama at 9:58 AM on January 15, 2016 [12 favorites]

well that's just your point of view, man.
posted by wabbittwax at 10:03 AM on January 15, 2016 [12 favorites]

Similarly, my insight in the shower the other day was that the Death Star we see under construction at the end of RotS was not the one we see in ANH; it was the first attempt at a full-scale Death Star but it likely blew up while under construction or during a test firing of the main weapon; what we see in ANH is the first one that actually got to full working status before an accident (or sabotage) happened.

Everyone said I was daft to build a Death Star with a reactor port, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It blew up. So I built a second one. That blew up. So I built a third. That started to fire its weapon, de-orbited, then fell into the sun. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Darth, the strongest Death Star in all the Empire. [pauses, looks around] Anyone else sense some rebels out there somewhere?
posted by phearlez at 10:37 AM on January 15, 2016 [11 favorites]

Here's something that I find really interesting and amusing: because there are only so many official promo shots, and only so many minutes of trailers in which you can get some clean freeze-frame images, respectible news agencies are pulling images from camera recordings of the movie (the Independent's [online-only?] article on the instant bread).

I understand that fans do it, but I'd think someone would contact the local/national Disney PR branch and say "hey, we're doing a short article on the insta-bread, can you send us a clean screenshot?" and the request would go to someone who is trusted and has access to the digital movie, or at least a ton of still shots, and the request would be filled fairly quickly, because the PR company has been instructed to maintain the prestige and perception of the quality of the film through distribution of quality imagery. Instead, we have what looks a bit better than a photo of something someone saw on their TV, and it's OK because people are still turning out in droves to see the movie.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:49 AM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Everyone said I was daft to build a Death Star with a reactor port!

I was going to go for the Babylon stations (exploded due to sabotage, exploded due to sabotage, exploded due to sabotage, just kinda disappeared one day, YAY THIS ONE WORKS uh oh now it's leading a rebellion) but yours is probably better.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:50 AM on January 15, 2016 [7 favorites]

(Also, I find the "camera footage of the movie" rather charming, which adds to the vintage 1970s/80s Star Wars feel - then again, I'm listening to Bibio's remix of Tycho's Spectre, and the remix adds what sounds like some tape hiss, and I find it cozy rather than annoying, so I have a love of visual and audio distortion that may not be shared by everyone.)
posted by filthy light thief at 10:58 AM on January 15, 2016

I was going to go for the Babylon stations

"What are you doing here?"

"Need this place. Need this. Used to fight. They told Zathras, armored space station we need. Needing we take. There is no more to telling."

"You need the Death Star as a base of operations in a war, is that it?"

"To help save galaxy, on the side of light. So they tell me. Must have. Or it is the end of all. The One leads us. The One tells us to go, we go. We live for the One. We would die for the One. We pull this place through time to save us all."

"You refer to the prophecy of the One who will bring balance to the Force?"

"Not the one. Won't talk. Can't talk. Not the one. They told me, they did. Zathras listens, he does, yes. Zathras listens and does what he's told."

[blaster fire]

"It was a boring conversation anyways."
posted by nubs at 2:36 PM on January 15, 2016 [9 favorites]

Snoke: One day, lad, all this will be yours!
Kylo: What, the curtains?
Snoke: No, not the curtains, the Starkiller!
Kylo: But I don't want to kill stars, Leader. I want... to sing...
posted by Rock Steady at 6:43 PM on January 15, 2016 [11 favorites]

This is like the third or fourth time we've strayed into Monty Python, which is odd.
posted by Artw at 7:02 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Only three or four times in a nearly 2500-comment thread? Yeah, that is odd.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:12 PM on January 15, 2016 [7 favorites]

Well, there was that moment that a woman stretched her arm out, clothed in not quite glimmering linen, and drew a ~~sword~~ lightsaber from the frozen water, and then offered it to a hero in need of redemption...

Nothing says Python like Arthurian story structure?
posted by Atreides at 7:49 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, that's probably it.
posted by Artw at 7:52 PM on January 15, 2016

I'm holding out hope for Starkiller Deathstar Star Max Star KillerXtreme in the next movie. Followed by Deathstar Star Killerstar Star Starkiller Stardeath Star Max Star Infinity +2Xtreme.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:06 PM on January 15, 2016

Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:08 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's no superweapon in the second movie, you'll have to wait for the third.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 8:21 PM on January 15, 2016

I think in this case we may be looking at a forcical aquatic ceremony, given where Luke landed at the end of the movie.
posted by immlass at 8:22 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think since he was on an island, that is an argument *for* a lady in a lake or other body of water handing out swords.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:28 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm leaning slightly toward it is a secret, and it occurs to me that's a pretty awkward secret to keep. "Where'd your son go?" "He died at Jedi camp."

And this one time? At Jedi camp?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:39 PM on January 15, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can't decide if I'm Team Skywalker, Team Kenobi, or Team Random Family when it comes to Rey. I would kind of like it if super awesome story lead was just some random person. On the other hand, Rey's spunk and sass points to Skywalker genes. On my imaginary third hand, a Kenobi descendant could be fun. But yeah, probably a Skywalker.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 9:49 PM on January 15, 2016

2500+ comments, and no discussion of how Rey's outfit is entirely fashioned from Ace bandages? Seriously, it takes some mad skillz to make a kickass ensemble using only bandages.

I thought the movie was telegraphing that Rey is Leia and Han's daughter. The looks Han kept giving her, the way he passed the torch to her, her reaction when he died, the way Leia hugged her. Also the way Han and Leia kept talking about "our son" maybe wasn't just a setup for revealing Ben's name, but also setting up a contrast with "our daughter". Mr M thought I was totally wrong and that Rey is Luke's daughter.
posted by medusa at 10:36 PM on January 15, 2016

FN-2187 does not make friends easily. At the start of the film, he had one. Too inept to keep his job as a janitor on the Death Star III, he’s sent to be a front-line Stormtrooper at Jakku, the ass-end of all possible places ruled by The First Order. He makes his one and only friend there, and then Jakku is suddenly important, and he and his friend are doing the badass “balance on a buffeting troop transport in perfect formation without holding on” thing because there’s this First Order bigwig who wants them to go raid this puny little village.

We know what happens to his friend. The Stormtrooper helmet streaked in blood is one of many indelible images this movies grants us.

Po doesn’t make friends easily. He’s likable and skilled, but he’s cynical and too smart for his own good. He doesn’t believe it until he sees it, and knows when someone is feeding him a line. FN-2187 is someone he’s known his whole life, but only met that minute. They get each other, feed off of each other’s energy, glory in each other’s victory as they flee the First Order.

As happy as Fin was to see Po alive, Po was happier still. This is a lifelong “Han and Lando” friendship happening, and we get to watch it unfold.

This would be the romance, but the giddy and gleeful meeting of triumphant friends on “Garbage” indicates otherwise. Fin took her by the hand, not to guide her, but to borrow her strength and courage, and he was very reluctant to let go. Rey in turn relies on Fin’s determination and quick-thinking and hard-earned education and enthusiasm - she gets so much from him, because he gives without reservation or expectation.

Now! Is Fin a force-sensitive? It could go either way, but you will note his first lightsaber duel was against another Stormtrooper, equipped with a special anti-lightsaber weapon. Fin, as a fellow Stormtrooper, was trained in how to counter a lightsaber-wielding opponent. (likely as hangover from Obiwon and Luke carving through the Empire with them) You’ll also note he lost, and Han had to save him.

Fin was never a good Stormtrooper. He never took pleasure or satisfaction in being a Stormtrooper. He found his life’s ambition in being a good friend instead.

He is a **great** friend. That’s his secret power. If you lead him somewhere he wants to go, he will follow, and make you great at what you want to do. He is not a good Stormtrooper - he is the ideal Stormtrooper.

He went toe-to-toe with a Sith Lord in a lightsaber duel, and made one hell of a fight out of it. Yes, Kylo Ren took a bowcaster blast to the gut, but it was Fin’s second time ever wielding that weapon. He was following Han. He was following Poe. He was following Rey. He’s a goddamn Stormtrooper, the ideal Stormtrooper, and unless you are friends with Chewbacca, you are always in for a bad day going up against that.

So! Why did Phasma drop the shields so readily? Because she didn’t believe in the Starkiller weapon. She didn’t believe in General Hux. She believed in Lord Kylo Ren. She didn’t want a weapon that could destroy everything from a half-galaxy away. She wanted a leader who could dominate the unbelievers into obeying. Phasma was rebelling against Lord Snape I mean Snope I mean Drudge Report I mean Snookie. She was starting the coup d’etat. She wants to burn the worlds of those who do not bow to Kylo Ren, beginning with the Starkiller Base.

So, yes, she is as bad-ass as her mirror-chrome armor is.

OK, despite the headlines, Carrie Fisher carries her age better than Harrison Ford, and Ford has abs at 70+ I will never have. Unfortunately, she likes wine and cigarettes, and hasn’t had to really act in 30 years, and George Lucas isn’t on-set to simply scream “FASTER!” at her. So she looks like a bad-ass middle-aged general, but she sounds like a diner waitress made out of wood. She simpers. A lot. Lots of liquid eyelash things with kind smile things going on, much more than is seemly for a general, and out of the question for Leia.
Contrast with Mark Hamill in The Flash, who also likes wine and cigarettes, and is the single best villain in the series not named “Snart.” Also Every Role in American Horror That Jessica Lange Plays.
She is still magic in every scene she has with Ford, who is similarly elevated as their characters try not to discuss their lives and hide their longing for one another and go through a lot of mutual regret. You get tired of it and want them to kiss already so you can cheer… and that passionate kiss, like both Han and Leia, it should have happened, but in the end, didn’t. The sadness is profound.

Admiral Ackbar in the house! It’s established he has an armada. A rag-tag and motley assortment of capital ships and starfighters from dozens of different worlds with differing starship-design philosophies crewed by frightened and desperate rebels, I am sure. Up against a unified-design star-destroyer/tie-fighter fleet crewed with precision by steely and cold-eyed First Order true-believers. The First Order generally doesn’t know what the hell hit them whenever his Starfighters show up… and he hasn’t even bothered with the big guns, yet! Awe. Some.

You will also note that the actors from the original trilogy have been trolling the media a bit. Billy Dee Williams is on record as declaring, “Nobody is going to play Lando but me!” He has been reprising the role with aplomb on Robot Chicken for almost a decade.

Also, his best friend in the Universe was Han. Lando is a freewheeling charmer, but he feels bound by duty. He is the literal best new character in Empire up yours with Frank Oz’s wank-hand Yoda! You’re not even number 2! and while the little green grammar goblin goes through a 15 minute death scene where he doesn’t really die, Lando uses his screen time in RoTJ to help rescue Han and then blow up the Deathstar II with the Millennium Falcon while conversing with an alien buddy in Its own language. We’re going to have a black septuagenarian sci-fi superhero in the next movie. Deal with it.

I once asked Google, “Who’s cooler, Han or Lando” - the first hit was an “Ask Yahoo” question that was exactly the same. The consensus of everyone on Ask Yahoo was that Han was cooler. Proof positive that Lando is cooler.

Starkiller Base - YES! Bigger and more terrifying! The sheer power the First Order commands by having the engineering and financial resources to build it, and the unvarnished evil and strength of will in actually building it and using it! The Death Star was Lucas’ critique of the Nazi Wunderwaffen from WWII - great for killing innocents, not so hot at winning wars. (Which is a lesson that can be applied to these modern times of ours as well.) It’s not just a mark of their power and superiority, it’s the embodiment of their insecurity and fear. The Rebel Alliance didn’t have a superweapon, but depended on people - Bothan spies, diplomats from Alderann, Mon Cal strategists, buggy astromechs, frontier farmboys, old mystics and smugglers. I wonder how that turned out?

The bigger the super-weapon, the greater the heroes who destroy it.

Speaking of which, Han Solo and Chewbacca were smuggling because:

1) Everyone needs a hobby. It helps people deal with traumatic life changes.
2) They were playing vicious mercenary units against each other, intending to screw them both. The Resistance doesn’t strike me as the type to hire mercenaries. The First Order absolutely would, especially when terrifying into obedience filthy non-humans.
3) Han and Chewie were looking for the Millennium Falcon. It is a proven game-changer in galaxy-wide conflicts, and it actually turned out to be instrumental in blowing up real good yet another Deathstar.

So, they had a deliberate fan-service ass-shot of Chewie strutting. I was sure they CGI’d the hell out of that, as Peter Mayhew is eleventy hundred years old and now lives next door to Courage in The Middle of Nowhere, TX, and has been taking selfies with fans back in the Kodak Disposable Age while leaning on six different canes at once. He got up off the scooter, tossed aside the cane, and holy hell! That. Is. Chewbacca.

“Where’s my boyfriend?” indeed!

So, Han and Chewie spent a decade or so of going rogue, which saved a few hundred billion people around the galaxy from fiery hyperlight death, as who the hell else is going to make a landing approach at hyperlight? And also few trillion from living out their days as slaves to the First Order, as he pulled it off! Can you imagine the terror in the First Order in being warned that Han Solo himself was captaining the Millennium Falcon again, and coming for them! If you’re in the Resistance, can you imagine the incredible rush in hearing that General Solo, in his legendary ship, has destroyed yet another super-weapon? The cold rage in learning he was killed while saving so many other worlds from the fate of the New Republic’s home system?

Screw your emotional maturity, Han is trying to win a war, here! Also, he’s 70, he’s allowed to have a hobby and to pal around with an old friend.

Ben was no-kidding asking his Dad to kill him. Kid was bent sideways by Snoke, if Snoke actually exists. J.J. Abrams has a fetish. Cloverfield. Cabin In The Woods. He really likes giants. The big reveal is that Snoke is larger than depicted, and his horribly scarred face was the lie, he’s pristine and beautiful.

Han thought about it, really hard and quick, because Han, and then decided nah, I like being a Dad. On a list of all the people in the universe I will not shoot first at, as my kid, you’re at the top of it. Let me take that lightsaber away and you’re not letting me take that lightsaber away. You are my son. I love you. I die. I’m still smarter than you are by a lot. This is why I gave Chewie the detonator.

Rey is no kind of Mary Sue. She is a talented pilot and brawler, a mediocre-to-poor salvager, and a scary-natural Force adept. She has to lean, and hard, on Fin and Han to survive as she finds her feet. They both recognize her abilities and intelligence and moral center - Fin decides to follow her, Han decides to mentor her, and they both rely on her natural abilities, and she relies on their own hard-won skills and their loyalty. This is why it’s so awful Fin decides to leave, and so momentous when he decides to stay by her side.

She’s also boring. She has no personality unless there’s someone else in the scene with her to make her human. This is good, as when presented with a role that required having no personality, Mark Hamill mostly whined at everything. Rey is a much more engaging and human Eternal Hero. Her giddy mutual-appreciation celebration with Fin aboard the Falcon sealed the deal for me. I want to hold her hand and be a hero, too!

Also, Luke, too, was made entirely out of ace bandages and bathrobes in his day.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:52 PM on January 15, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oh, hey, if you're not all Star Warsed out: the truly great Rebels is back this week.
posted by Mezentian at 2:13 AM on January 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

I watched the first five or so episodes of Rebels and did not like it, it felt way too kiddy. This was after watching all of Clone Wars and being someone very open to watching kid shows. Does it get better or am I just not on the right wavelength for this for some reason?
posted by Drinky Die at 4:59 AM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also, it abused the shit out of Orange and Blue cinematography. You have to have like 10 times better writing than a non-Blue and Orange show if you want to keep me watching one.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:02 AM on January 16, 2016

You guys let's keep this thread going until Episode VIII comes out.
posted by duffell at 5:11 AM on January 16, 2016 [8 favorites]

Or at least until Rogue One does.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:15 AM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

*pulls up Corellian longboat*
posted by drezdn at 5:18 AM on January 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

Kylo Ren holding Vader's helmet, "I will finish what you started."

He sits down at the computer, typing "... Nightmare Moon looked at all of Equestria, trembling beneath her rule, and knew her victory was complete." Ren clicks post.
posted by drezdn at 5:20 AM on January 16, 2016 [12 favorites]

What exactly did Vader start, that Ren will finish? Killing all the Jedi?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:34 AM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

Rebels does get better, keep with it and admire the use of light and frame composition which separates it from most television animation on these days.

Killing the Jedi was Vader's unfinished business.
posted by Atreides at 7:13 AM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

I watched the first five or so episodes of Rebels and did not like it, it felt way too kiddy. This was after watching all of Clone Wars and being someone very open to watching kid shows.

Give it time to breathe.

It starts out all Stinky The Hutt and Chopper comedy and ends up basically sliding into where Clone Wars was heading.
Lando turns up, Leia is turning up, and Ahsoka is going to face Vader.
I mean, what more do you want?

(Also, other surprises).
posted by Mezentian at 7:21 AM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

One of the great things about Clone Wars was that the creative team quite stridently pushed away from what was probably George Lucas' original intent: something mostly for kids, complete with another young POV character, and more whimsy and flash bang than anything serious. For that show, it began after the "movie" which Lucas insisted on releasing theatrically, but it probably took a season and a half before they felt comfortable to really begin pushing away. Once they aged up Ahsoka the process was complete.

With Rebels, this process took only about half a season, if that. This is probably best illustrated by the introduction of Grand Moff Tarkin and his order to the Inquisitor to behead two incompetent Imperial officers just off screen. Things got real and have remained so ever since. Also, there's nothing more sociopathic in Clone Wars as the Chopper astromech droid. It's a straight up killer of droid and human alike. As of the second to last episode, body count is now in the thousands.

Season two of the show, unsurprisingly given the Clone Wars team has turned toward answering lingering character arcs/plot points that arose from Clone Wars. They are wrapping up the story they were denied the chance to finish when their original show was canceled. The lovely thing is that the bleeding over of the old show into the new makes sense and doesn't necessarily come across as forced.
posted by Atreides at 7:48 AM on January 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

There were so many trailers, and the 3D looked so bad in all of them.

Yes, we noticed that as well. Tons of artifacts and just sort of gimicky feeling to the 3D vs "here is a great new tool filmmakers are using well to tell better stories."

Once the movie started the 3D was fine, though--very noticeably higher quality in the 3D than the trailers that had preceded it.

I'm curious now to watch the movie in 2D just to note the differences, if any. But it is quite interesting that after experimentation with and trial of 3D techniques and tools in film since the early 1900s, but no real take-off of the technology other than a relatively few experimental films--most gimmicky in the extreme--we do now seem to live in an age where 3D is a routine part of the moviegoing experience.
posted by flug at 1:54 PM on January 16, 2016

Finally, I just have to say, I hated baby Anakin and had mixed feelings about teen Anakin, but a little something died in me watching a SW movie with no embodied Anakin Skywalker at all.

Perhaps it's because I had sunk so much into the Original Trilogy prior to the prequels, and based on the casting decisions for the Prequel Trilogy (and how Anakin was presented outside of the Clone Wars, I have never strongly identified Star Wars with Anakin Skywalker. When I think Skywalker and Star Wars, I think entirely Luke Skywalker. Incidentally, it's Darth Vader who I feel the Prequel Trilogy really informs, it's about his creation, less so much about Anakin's fall. Now that TFA has started off with Vader's legacy driving a primary antagonist, I think I feel that way even more.

Perhaps if one entered Star Wars watching the Prequel Trilogy first, I would feel otherwise, and that would make sense. the Prequel Trilogy start a story about Anakin Skywalker and carry it toward a grisly end.
posted by Atreides at 2:51 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

The final superweapon will be built around an actual star. When they ask what to name it, everyone will look around awkwardly until someone meekly suggests "Killer Sun"
posted by ckape at 3:15 PM on January 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Terror Galaxy"
posted by Artw at 3:29 PM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

I forgot to add earlier...

So, they had a deliberate fan-service ass-shot of Chewie strutting. I was sure they CGI’d the hell out of that, as Peter Mayhew is eleventy hundred years old and now lives next door to Courage in The Middle of Nowhere, TX, and has been taking selfies with fans back in the Kodak Disposable Age while leaning on six different canes at once. He got up off the scooter, tossed aside the cane, and holy hell! That. Is. Chewbacca.

They found another actor to play Chewie in those scenes. Anything that looks like it'd be hard for Mayhew, it's the new guy. The requirements were essentially be seven feet tall and have blue eyes.
posted by Atreides at 4:37 PM on January 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

Very interesting. Apparently it was actually Anthony Daniels inside C-3PO the whole time, though. And although I certainly don't expect anyone to be able to keep their youthful figure for thirty years, did anybody else think ol' Threepio wasn't quite as svelte as they remember him?
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:45 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

You probably just think that because of the red arm.
posted by meinvt at 8:54 PM on January 16, 2016 [15 favorites]

Red Giant Life-Ender.
posted by drezdn at 9:25 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

A Huge Ever Growing Pulsating Sphere That Rules from the Centre of the Ultraworld
posted by Artw at 9:45 PM on January 16, 2016 [7 favorites]

And although I certainly don't expect anyone to be able to keep their youthful figure for thirty years,

40 years, yo.
Look as good when you are that old you will not, no?

(Well, you may. Some people do. My I'd rather Daniels be given the chance to get suited up than the role be recast. Hell, Kenny Baker was R2D2's "movement director". That shit is real class from Disney.
posted by Mezentian at 10:43 PM on January 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

Basic business sense too. Sending money Baker's way ensures he and the fans are happy, preventing any bad feelings rippling through the internets.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:06 AM on January 17, 2016

Undercover Boss: Starkiller Base - SNL
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 5:07 AM on January 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Either Kenobi is a hypocritical dick and/or he abandoned a child?

Can you blame him? It gets cold on Tattoine.*

"Not to mention the sand, I tell you that stuff gets everywhere and it's coarse and rough and irritating. Not like some of them ladies in Mos Eisley who will do anything for a few quid. OK, maybe they are coarse and rough and irritating. But cheap. Did I mention the cold?"
posted by biffa at 9:48 AM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Undercover Boss: Starkiller Base - SNL

Obviously Canon. Also supports the theory that Kylo Ren is Adam Driver from Girls later in life.
posted by Artw at 10:04 AM on January 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Also, Luke, too, was made entirely out of ace bandages and bathrobes in his day.

Yeah, Luke had the leg ace bandages. But Rey's outfit is all ace bandages, all the time.
posted by medusa at 3:19 PM on January 17, 2016

> A Huge Ever Growing Pulsating Sphere That Rules from the Centre of the Ultraworld
posted by Artw at 9:45 PM on January 16 [3 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

I... I think I just found religion.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:07 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Obviously Canon.

My first reaction. Well, after chuckling all the way through.
posted by crossoverman at 5:55 PM on January 17, 2016

Read through the Visual Guide to The Force Awakens, which has a lot of neat little factoids, and for anyone with more than a passing interest in the film, it's a fun, quick read. An example of the tidbits being that Phasma's armor is made from salvaged metal from the exterior of a Naboo craft which once belonged to Palpatine (possibly the one blown up in the recent Lando Marvel comic series), that C-3PO's red arm was the result of a sacrifice by another droid for him (And that he's currently the head of a droid based intelligence network for the Resistance - which will be told in greater detail hopefully next month in the Marvel one shot), and the identity of the woman in the Resistance uniform on Hosnian Prime right before it blew up (And that the Senate's chancellor is the alien standing next to her).

I might try and type up a summary of the info to share the more interesting stuff.
posted by Atreides at 6:12 PM on January 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

You buried the lead there.... Chancellor Villecham's principal concerns are forging more agreeable trade relations with the neutral systems of the Trans-Hydian Borderlands.

I'm not spitting chips about Korr Sella's plot being axed, because trade relations are where it's at.

And Phasma's armour makes it clear "she's a woman of action".

There's also at least one cut scene with the snowtroopers on the Falcon, the band in Maz's bar contains Sudswater Dillifay Glon and Infrablue Zedbeddy Coggins and Ubert "Sticks" Quaril, and the Hassk Triplets look a lot like Zed, or at least his original designs.

Oh, and Rosser Weno wears combat droid plate armour, left over from the Clone Wars one assumes. I have no idea who Rosser was played by, but it could be some sort of rapper doing a cameo. He has that sort of look.
posted by Mezentian at 10:16 PM on January 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's an actor/model called Elroy 'Spoonface' Powell.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:14 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thanks!

Spoonface sounds like a Star Wars alien.

I checked IMDB and found zip. It looks like he needs to update his page.

Maz's bar scene (where Han hasn't been for 25 years, I wonder what the story is there) really does seem crammed with lots of ~~detail~~ potential action figures.
posted by Mezentian at 11:21 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

the identity of the woman in the Resistance uniform on Hosnian Prime right before it blew up

I guess this is where I should apologize to Maisie Richardson-Sellers, since I mixed her up with a scruffy looking robot a long, long time ago.
posted by effbot at 3:19 AM on January 18, 2016

To be fair, everyone thought that was Freema Agyeman.

But are you referring to ME-8D9?
posted by Mezentian at 3:28 AM on January 18, 2016

As we've now sailed past 2500 posts, I'm guessing this has to be the longest thread on fanfare, right?
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:47 AM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

And Phasma's armour makes it clear "she's a woman of action".

Gads, probably the only flaw in the book are the unneeded or ridiculous comments, which I'm wondering were needed to fill up empty space or something on the page. We have a comment about how Poe's hair is a bit uncombed because he's been wearing his helmet or a line drawn to Finn's face which says something to the ilk, "Fierce look of determination to help his new friends." I swear, somewhere, I'm sure someone suggested something like, "Fingernails neatly trimmed to allow flight gloves to fit better." The worse, though, may have been pointing to a member of the Kanjiklub and saying something to the effect, "Feral look blah blah blah...." My immediate reaction being, "You call one of the people of color feral?" (not to mention, the Kanjiklub apparently were former slaves of the Hutts.)

Thankfully, despite these inane comments, it can be an interesting book with tidbits.

You buried the lead there.... Chancellor Villecham's principal concerns are forging more agreeable trade relations with the neutral systems of the Trans-Hydian Borderlands.

And ya know, they slap a woman from Naboo on the same page with him. Hrm.
posted by Atreides at 6:13 AM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

The babysitting gods smiled on us yesterday and my wife and I took our eight year old to see TFA. Only my second time, but after a dozen hours of TFA podcasts and this megathread, every scene was fresh in my mind. So on second viewing:

- None of that tense anticipation, no "are they going to screw this up?" jitters. I know they got this.

- Rey is just as kick-ass a character as I thought the first time, and Daisy Ridley just as amazing in her portrayal.

- The Rathars - yeah, ugh. Those didn't add much. And the Starkiller base really was a re-tread. As they say in the briefing room, "So, another Death Star, then?"

- On the other hand, the sound of snow hissing on the lightsabers. The crackling of the blaster bolt as it hung there, frozen in place by Kylo Ren. The wordless exposition that introduces us to Rey's life, with the camera panning back out over the tally marks on the wall. This is wonderful movie making!

I still can't get over the fact that every character was played to make us care. Not just leaning on nostalgia (except Luke, but he frames the entire movie, from the first words to the last scene). No, here are brand new characters, and you get to hang with them and sympathize with them and care about what happens to them. This is such a change from the prequels, and for that I'm willing to forgive all the other sins of the movie. Even my wife, a total non-geek, keeps bringing up how much Kylo Ren annoyed her and all the reasons why she's upset with him. They got under her skin.

So many wink-wink, nudge-nudge bits for the fans: "Another Death Star, then?" "Some of it was good, wasn't it?" "Yeah, this is how we look like. Some of us." "Droid please!" And that instant classic, "That's not how the Force works!"

Now we wait for the release on DVD or iTunes (when? Months away, I guess?) so that the kids can get their fill. Meanwhile, our Sunday afternoon show was almost half full, for a month-old movie. This movie deserves all of the 1.9 billion dollars it's already made!
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:36 PM on January 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

All through the film, I kept trying to figure out who Leia reminded me of. Every time she appeared--reminds me of someone. Who? Who?

Finally, it came to me: Hillary Clinton.

Make of it what you will . . .
posted by flug at 1:07 PM on January 18, 2016

Uh, probably that we don't see very many 60-year-old women in leadership roles in American culture, and that a natural post-menopausal body is almost unheard of on the national political or cultural stage?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:30 PM on January 18, 2016 [21 favorites]

Spoonface sounds like a Star Wars alien.

Well, there is Pruneface!
posted by nubs at 2:15 PM on January 18, 2016

Does anybody ever wonder if the head of the US Navy ever said, "ugh, another aircraft carrier, then?"

(although I do have to question the ultimate value of a weapon designed to blow up planets, because you'd figure habitable planets are basically a finite resource, and it'd probably be better to find a way to get rid of the annoying people on them while leaving the yummy raw materials behind.)
posted by GhostintheMachine at 2:15 PM on January 18, 2016

As I understand it Navy types mainly get annoyed about carrier construction as it gets done in favor of other ship types that just aren't very effective anymore. The relatively poor records of anti-planet spheres probably makes some other comparison more apt.
posted by Artw at 2:31 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Does anybody ever wonder if the head of the US Navy ever said, "ugh, another aircraft carrier, then?"

But the problem with that analogy would be that the Death Star is like the US Navy building one massive aircraft carrier that you could launch B52s from, basing all their policy around projection of force around it, and then having it destroyed shortly after becoming operational (successful missions conducted: 1) by a bunch of people using motorboats to lob Molotov cocktails at it.

Then, while building a second, even bigger carrier, having it destroyed while still in the harbour by some motorboats while a few destroyers engaged your other destroyers.

I'd like to think at that point people might question the wisdom of building giant superweapon platforms as opposed to other directions, such as invasion fleets or smaller scale weapons of mass destruction. I mean, right now the strategic path to victory for the Empire appears to be "submit or we destroy your planet/star system"; there is no plan for taking and holding systems that I can see. The potential endgame scenario is a planet killer floating in a galaxy devoid of planets...
posted by nubs at 2:40 PM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Possibly this is a critical that could be lowered at the original trilogy but it's a little hard to imagine the First Order actually administering their territory day-to-day.
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on January 18, 2016

Gads, probably the only flaw in the book are the unneeded or ridiculous comments, which I'm wondering were needed to fill up empty space or something on the page.

On the other hand, much of tumblr loves those comments, so you might just not be in the right target market.

I think they're cute.
posted by flaterik at 2:59 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's pretty much the standard currency of those DK books.
posted by Artw at 3:01 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

You Missed Your Chance to Adopt This Cat That Looks Just Like Adam Driver
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on January 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Finally, it came to me: Hillary Clinton.

Well those of us who follow politics are aware of Hillary's early years when she was "rescued" by Bill -- it was so cute when she said "aren't you a little short to be a Navy SEAL?" -- and they blasted their way out of a heavily armored Nazi fortress (I guess she is pretty old today, right?) just before Bill signed a line item veto provision that dissolved the invading alien army into vapor.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:27 PM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

“Why Composer John Williams Knows More About Star Wars Than You Do,” Dan Golding, Kotaku, 18 January 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 6:56 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's a nice article, ob1quixote. I really enjoyed Williams' work on the new film.

His position is interesting. He's the only major player that TFA shares with the prequels, so he had to learn from his own mistakes, while everyone else just had to learn from other people's. And one of those mistakes was an excess, maybe, of bombast and hookiness. "Duel of the Fates" sounds great, but that song didn't fit the essential ethos of Star Wars, which walks a tricky but consistent line with regard to battle and war. It's a series which is simultaneously about the glories of war -- the chance it gives for us to prove ourselves, the resonant leadership of people like Leia, the raw adrenaline inherent in the name, WARS IN THE STARS, YEAH -- and the futility of violence and revenge and of even of nationhood. Yoda tells Luke that war doesn't make one great. Whenever Luke fights his father, he loses by default because he's chosen to fight. Rey's triumph is mastering her anger and not killing Kylo Ren. The entire series presents the ideal life as the life of a stateless person: a spiritual seeker, minor criminal of victimless crimes, or rebel against a fascist government.

War in this universe is often inspiring and beautiful, but it's always sad. Loss is constant, and distraction can't stave it off. That darkness is part of why this story endures while others fade (well, that, and thirty-five years of toy sales).

But "Duel of the Fates," and the scene that it backs, do posit that war makes one great. It's almost propagandistic in feel. I'll be honest, I don't remember much of the other music from the prequels, but I suspect Williams did look at this most iconic piece and consciously decide to make something more quiet, more somber, and more in keeping with a story about three generations of a family at war with itself.
posted by thesmallmachine at 8:06 PM on January 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Possibly this is a critical that could be lowered at the original trilogy but it's a little hard to imagine the First Order actually administering their territory day-to-day.

In fairness, though, could you imagine the Empire doing that, either? We don't see any Imperial Administrators around, really, just Stormtroopers hassling people with droids and stuff.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:06 PM on January 18, 2016

They kind of seem like shitty cops in that though - in contrast the First Order just turns up and murders your whole town.
posted by Artw at 8:14 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

"That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"
"The Regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 12:25 AM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

So, what did the Empire do after the Death Star was blown up?

I assume a mere fleet of star destroyers, TIE bombers, battle droids and clone/storm troopers would be enough fear-making anyway, for why ever the Emperor wanted control.
posted by Mezentian at 3:04 AM on January 19, 2016

The First Order is apparently just a fragment of the Empire, yet was able to build Starkiller Base which was vastly bigger than a Death Star.

Which tells us that taxation in the Empire must have been pretty light. They might not have needed much control over planets, maybe funding themselves just by levying tariffs on interstellar trade. That would explain the smuggling industry and the lack of local administration.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:22 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

The First Order is apparently just a fragment of the Empire, yet was able to build Starkiller Base which was vastly bigger than a Death Star.

They didn't build the entire thing though, they just mined out the centre of a planet and built the super-gun. Assuming they selected a planet based on it having a good amount of the right minerals in it already, it might not be any harder to mine/smelt/build the Starkiller weapon than it is to mine/smelt and then transport the materials elsewhere to build a Death Star. DS2 was in orbit around Endor but there's no evidence they were mining the moon for materials which means the logistical effort to transport the materials from elsewhere must have been massive. Building the super-weapon in situ is probably much more efficient. You can also hide the construction more easily because you don't have to suddenly and mysteriously start using your entire fleet to start transporting metal girders across the galaxy - as long as you keep intruders out of the system where you're building the Starkiller, you can keep it a secret.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:19 AM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Rock Steady: Kylo: But I don't want to kill stars, Leader. I want... to sing...
Kylo: [swaying, eyes closed, gazing at the floor with his hair hanging over his face] ♪ Love, love will tear us apart ...♪
Snoke: Stop that! No singing!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:04 AM on January 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

anonymisc: Why were the First Order senior officers so young?

Captain Phasma: Snoke! Snoke!
Supreme Leader Snoke: Captain Phasma, isn't it? Nice to see you again.
Phasma: Are you fucking me about?
Snoke: Is there a problem, Captain Phasma?
Phasma: I've just come from a briefing with a nine-year-old child.
Snoke: You're talking about Kylo Ren. Ren is one of our top guys. He's one of the Knights of Ren. One of the brightest and best.
Phasma: Well, his briefing notes were written in alphabetti spaghetti. When I left, I nearly tripped up over his fucking umbilical cord.
Snoke: I'm sorry it troubles you that our people achieve excellence at such an early age. But could we just move on to what's important here? Now, I understand that your superior has asked you to supply us with some, say, fresh Resistance intelligence, is that true?
Phasma: Yeah, apparently, your fucking master race of highly-gifted toddlers can't quite get the job done...
Snoke: All right.
Phasma: ...between breast feeds and playing with their Power Rangers. So, an actual grown-up has been asked to fucking bail you out.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:21 AM on January 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

prize bull octorok: Maybe in the next movie they can send two or three X-wings to blow up a 100x100 matrix of prototype Death Stars

"If we blow up the third Death Star from the left, on the 67th line down from the top, that should set off a whole chain reaction that will take out the grid."
"Wait, your left or mine?"
"Leroooooy Jenkins!"
"Oh shit, where did that guy even come from? Red Squadron, is he one of your guys?"
posted by filthy light thief at 7:24 AM on January 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Read The Perfect Weapon. Was ok for $2US and 60 or so pages. It involves Bazine Netal, a master thief and assassin, being hired to retrieve a box from an ex-stormtrooper who fought at the battle of Endor. Said trooper has been retired to a home for 'trooper vets on an Outer Rim.

We're never told what's in the box, but it's an easy guess. *Kylo Ren happy dance*
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:53 AM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

We're never told what's in the box, but it's an easy guess.

Gwyneth Paltrow's head?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:55 AM on January 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

So, what did the Empire do after the Death Star was blown up?

From reading Aftermath, it looks like there was a bit of an internal struggle for control of remaining resources while the New Republic tried to establish itself as a legitimate government and one that was going to do business in a different way than the Empire had (which looked like a set of ideals fraught with difficulty). After the squabbling would-be leaders of the remnants of the Empire are almost caught while meeting to discuss future plans, they head out towards unexplored territory/the Outer Rim* which is where Palpatine apparently felt his "power in the Dark Side" was coming from and had also sent previous expeditions. I'm kind of assuming whatever they found there was the foundation of the First Order we see in the films.

*Possibly B5 reference I'm conflating with Star Wars cuz that is how my brain works some times.
posted by nubs at 7:56 AM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

We're never told what's in the box, but it's an easy guess.

Gwyneth Paltrow's head?

Kylo Ren is more fucked up than I thought.
posted by nubs at 7:58 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Brandon Blatcher: *Kylo Ren happy dance*

For some reason, I now imagine Kylo Ren as a cartoon, dancing with the rest of the Peanuts gang. (Are there any TFA/Peanuts mashups yet?)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:01 AM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

After the squabbling would-be leaders of the remnants of the Empire are almost caught while meeting to discuss future plans, they head out towards unexplored territory/the Outer Rim* which is where Palpatine apparently felt his "power in the Dark Side" was coming from and had also sent previous expeditions.

SPOILER - KIND OF

About five to six of the remaining top power brokers left in the Empire meet on Akiva (home to one of the X-Wing pilots, "Snap" in TFA) to discuss the future of the empire, at the behest of Admiral Rae Sloane (introduced in A New Dawn). The true purpose, however, is to try and cull the herd, so to speak, by tricking potential opponents into exposing themselves to a Rebel attack. A fair number of them get killed and it's then revealed that it wasn't really Admiral Sloane at all, but a shadowy admiral whom she's in service to...and it's implied that he's the one who's going to lead the Imperial forces into the unknown territories.

Outer Rim is a common term in the Star Wars galaxy, so it's not B5 influencing your thoughts. Tatooine is considered an Outer Rim planet. We have "The Core" (Coruscant) and then the Middle Rim or Inner Rim ("Takodana or whatever Maz's planet is called").
posted by Atreides at 9:10 AM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

We're never told what's in the box, but it's an easy guess.

Well it's a good thing we're already getting a whole new EU to hunt down and exterminate any intrigue, mystery, and unanswered questions left in the Star Wars galaxy.

I figured Kylo nicked it from Uncle Luke but whatever
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:39 AM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

The only good thing about the EU is that it's even easier to ignore than the prequels.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:12 AM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Everyone said I was daft to build a Death Star with a reactor port, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It blew up. So I built a second one. That blew up. So I built a third. That started to fire its weapon, de-orbited, then fell into the sun. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Darth, the strongest Death Star in all the Empire. [pauses, looks around] Anyone else sense some rebels out there somewhere?

I mean, after the 5th one, I imagine the engineers were like "well we've built and improved on the same design so many times now, it'd be a waste to scrap it and figure out something even better, we don't have that kind of time!". Which sounds like how every government-lead project works.
posted by numaner at 10:57 AM on January 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

You know, if you think about it, there's a lot of weight behind the "WELL....it only failed because some idiot forgot to shield the exhaust port, and that's an easy fix!" Which was followed by, "We fixed the problem from last time, but the Rebels attacked the station before it was completely done. I mean, THEY FLEW INTO OUR SPACE STATION INNARDS. If we can just have time to build one without someone flying through a construction zone..."
posted by Atreides at 11:35 AM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, I believe Starkiller Base would only be vulnerable to total destruction when it was charged. Destroying the oscillator would normally just require repairs. It's only when there's no way to contain the power within the planet that it would be destroyed. I could see someone being convinced that this time it would work given you'd have to get to the surface of the planet, stay undetected long enough to turn off the shields to allow an attack, and have the weapon be charged/charging while being attacked.

Still not the best decision making on the part of the First Order though. And hopefully the filmmakers don't keep coming back to giant planet killing devices.
posted by Green With You at 12:09 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

At this point I expect a giant planet killing device or it's just not even Star Wars anymore.
posted by numaner at 1:14 PM on January 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Supreme Leader Snoke, it is not only possible, it is essential. That is the whole idea of this machine, you know. Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack. And so, because of the automated and irrevocable decision-making process which rules out human meddling, the Doomsday machine is terrifying and simple to understand... and completely credible and convincing.

Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the galaxy, eh?
posted by wabbittwax at 2:07 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's not as if the First Order had a chance at all, because, you know, the Resistance didn't even really need a plan, because the Force.
posted by Atreides at 2:08 PM on January 19, 2016

That's not how the Force works!
posted by numaner at 2:24 PM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

You know, if you think about it, there's a lot of weight behind the "WELL....it only failed because some idiot forgot to shield the exhaust port, and that's an easy fix!"

An Open Letter
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:52 PM on January 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Do you know realize many Death Stars blew themselves up before they realized they needed to add an exhaust port?
posted by ckape at 3:00 PM on January 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

On a more serious note, this article has been making the rounds on Twitter today:

Insider Says Lucasfilm Vendors Removed Star Wars Character to ‘Improve Sales’
posted by anastasiav at 6:25 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

So an anonymous "insider" is pointing the finger at Lucasfilm/Disney for the lack of Rey merchandise? I don't buy it. I still think the decision was made lower down.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:42 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Whoever made the decision is probably also the reason my work is stuck with so many peg-warmer 3.75" figures like General Hux, A repair guy, and some random droid that is 3/4ths C3P0 with a blue head.
posted by drezdn at 7:55 PM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

First, those two girls dressed up as Rey with her goggles (equipped with Ezra's lightsaber!) are adorable.

Second, I agree that someone is responsible for making the decision and the excuse of not ruining the plot remains just that, an excuse.

Third, I found Kylo Ren somewhat interesting, but perhaps it's because I gravitate toward the good guys, I find pretty much all the other characters more fascinating (Poe, Finn, and Rey, etc). I can only assume that they thought he would be taken in as the next 'Vader', who a visit to any Star Wars merchandising location will show, is a major seller. (I confess, I can't buy a product that implies I support the Bad Guys! - I get confused when I see Decepticon stickers on cars.)
posted by Atreides at 6:47 AM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

The note is interesting that before TFA those two girls wanted to be Anakin. Because they wanted t be Jedi.
Then they wanted to be Ahsoka, but couldn't find a good costume.

I'd love to see an Ahsoka film. The only downside is that she'd probably need to die at the end.
Or die at the hands of Vader. That seems like her destiny.

It's a bit weird having this great character stuck in the cracks of the universe, and she's not around in the original trilogy, (but she's also not a Jedi) so.. what's her destiny. It feels more constrained because of what we know of the future.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:09 AM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

The part of that account that really sticks out to me is that they were banking on Kylo Ren being the big breakout character from TFA. Which means that either they didn't know a single thing about how the movie plays out (nobody from Disney said, “hey, he kinda murders his dad, maybe think twice about that”?) or the logic was that boys would rather idolize a tantrum-prone patricidal whiner than a heroic woman or black person.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:42 AM on January 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

The part of that account that really sticks out to me is that they were banking on Kylo Ren being the big breakout character from TFA.

This is what stuck out for me as well, particularly in light of a) relatives getting Ren stuff for my kid at Christmas that the kid totally hates and ignores, and b) seeing lots of Ren stuff sitting on the shelves.

After reading the article I asked my son about how he felt bout Ren (a great breakfast conversation), and he was quick to point out that Ren kills his father. He also said the character he would REALLY like more of is Phasma ("cool armor"), so there's that.
posted by anastasiav at 8:27 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

So an anonymous "insider" is pointing the finger at Lucasfilm/Disney for the lack of Rey merchandise? I don't buy it. I still think the decision was made lower down.

I would be more inclined to believe that it was the toy industry representatives saying something like "girl action figures don't sell" or some such. Disney is going to merch anything that can possibly be merch'd.

The industry insider went on to describe how excluding female action characters has been a common yet frustrating trend over the past few years. “Diminishing of girl characters is common in the industry. Power Rangers asked us to do it. Paw Patrol, too.”

My son is nuts about Paw Patrol. I've noticed the lack of the female characters on a lot of the products, especially his clothing. The T shirts and pajamas he has feature only the male characters. He has the female character toys and plays with them alongside the male characters. I'm not sure where the bullshit "boys don't like girl characters" idea comes from.

Maybe it has more to do with the parents who buy the products. I have overheard parents worrying about something being "too girly" for their male child.
posted by Fleebnork at 8:41 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

The part of that account that really sticks out to me is that they were banking on Kylo Ren being the big breakout character from TFA.

Which is interesting, because my youngest was pretty fixated on Kylo for a few days - he's the new Darth Vader! - but in general the conversations have been about Rey, Poe, and Finn. My oldest likes Poe, and we're all anxious to see what happens with Finn and Rey. So I would say Kylo has made an impression, just not one of delight.

Kylo is a character of interest to me, but not because I think he's cool, but because I enjoyed the depiction of Kylo as an empty, angsty young man trying so hard to find an identity. For 2016, it's an interesting meditation on the nature of evil and how some are drawn to it. I think it offers them a lot of potential directions to take the character; but I also see a lot of potential directions for Rey, Finn, and Poe as well, which is awesome and what the series needs - they can go in a lot of different directions and explore many different themes.
posted by nubs at 8:45 AM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

I like Kylo's character a lot, and he certainly has a neat outfit and flashy lightsaber, but the idea that kids who've seen the movie are going to want toys of him reminds me of that scene from The Simpsons where some kids from Bart's class are super excited about sneaking into an R-rated movie -- Barton Fink.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:03 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

I seem to recall reading that something similar happened with the LotR movies; marketing figured that Legolas would be the character the female side of the audience reacted to best, but it turned out to be Viggorn.
posted by nubs at 9:21 AM on January 20, 2016

From anastasiav's article:

The toy industry is more gender-divided now than at any time in the past 50 years, according to Elizabeth Sweet, a professor of sociology at the University of California at Davis. She’s a noted authority in the sociology of gender-based toy design and marketing. Analyses of historical toy catalogs show that in the 1970s more than half of toys were not designated as being specifically for one gender, whereas now, very few toys are marketed as gender-neutral, according to Sweet.

That's just sad. But then this:

Marcotte believes the Star Wars film may represent the watershed moment when the toy industry finally realizes they are out of step with consumers’ desires. “It’s up to the public now, to make it happen,” he said. “It’s all about the carrot and stick of economics. If people buy products featuring strong, heroic female characters, it will happen.”

So maybe a consumer rebellion will have an effect?
posted by medusa at 9:30 AM on January 20, 2016

Based on the women LOTR fans I know, there was plenty of love for both of them. Often... together.
posted by kmz at 9:31 AM on January 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

So maybe a consumer rebellion will have an effect?

It is a period of mercantile war.
Rebel consumers, purchasing
from hidden internet bases,
have won their first victory
against the evil Marketing Empire.

More seriously, I think this has been brewing for a while. There were rumblings after Avengers: Age of Ultron when Black Widow was left out of tie-ins; Mad Max: Fury Road gave us a movie that showed pretty clearly that consumers will go see (and love) films with strong, heroic female characters (and I'm not just talking about Furiosa); and now the Rey fallout from TFA. Likely there are events that pre-date Ultron.

We vote with our wallets on this stuff, but I think we've finally gotten their attention because people have their wallets out and are saying "But you don't have the product I want to buy."
posted by nubs at 9:39 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's a bit weird having this great character stuck in the cracks of the universe, and she's not around in the original trilogy, (but she's also not a Jedi) so.. what's her destiny. It feels more constrained because of what we know of the future.

Jar Jar is similarly situated. I agree, it's a shame.

Re: Kylo Ren as breakout marketable character, it was kind of a stroke of genius to make sure that all the people Darth Vader murders* on-screen** are asshole Imperial officers. We can all get behind casual homicide when it's directed at Nazi-esque middle managers!

*in the OT
**yeah, okay, Biggs
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:54 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

nubs: "Likely there are events that pre-date Ultron."

Back in the 80s when my brother and I were pestering her to buy us every Star Wars toy we could get our hands on, my mother was always complaining that there were so few versions of Leia action figures compared to Luke and Han.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:40 AM on January 20, 2016

Star Wars: Episode VIII Delayed To December 15, 2017
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:30 PM on January 20, 2016

THAT'S NOT TRUE!

THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!
posted by entropicamericana at 12:32 PM on January 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

search the internet, you know it to be true.
posted by numaner at 12:36 PM on January 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

I'm okay with the delay. I don't think the joy and pleasure centers of my brain could handle two Star Wars films coming out within six months of each other. Not to mention, it will help the franchise conquer the calendar. In Spring, we have the May 4th celebration, followed by Comic Con in the summer, and then the D2X celebration in the early fall. Move in December and ka-zaam!
posted by Atreides at 1:20 PM on January 20, 2016

Yeah, honestly I almost wonder if it isn't that they saw how well the movie did with basically no competition at the box office in December. I mean, obviously the movie would have done well in the summer too, but would it have done as well as it has?
posted by kmz at 1:34 PM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Staking out mid-December as a new "tradition" for Star Wars seems like a pretty reasonable idea, all things considered. It wouldn't be the first time a series did well in that slot -- Lord of the Rings released three years in a row, the 19th, 18th, and 17th of December. No big deal, it just went on to be the highest grossing trilogy (unadjusted for inflation) in history.

Also:

The part of that account that really sticks out to me is that they were banking on Kylo Ren being the big breakout character from TFA.

It's not that crazy, is it? People like the bad guys a lot of the time (there's certainly a lot of Vader cosplayers). I know some kids that are, in fact, totally obsessed with Kylo Ren. It feels weird as an adult, but to a 10 year old him being an angsty teen is less of an obvious drawback.

I'm not saying that makes leaving out Rey a good thing (because holy shit, how could you not see that people would want toys and merchandise with her all over it?). Just, I think Kylo Ren is going to be a popular character for a long time to come as well.
posted by tocts at 1:53 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Better it be the best movie it can be than they compromise for sake of time.

Luke: Isn't compromising stronger?

Yoda: No. No. No. Quicker. Easier. More seductive. Worse product.
posted by nubs at 2:13 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Would have been nice for Episode VIII to come out 40 years to the month after Star Wars was released, but I'm okay with waiting. I guess. If I must. I mean, yeah, sure.
posted by crossoverman at 5:49 PM on January 20, 2016

I wonder how much of the pushback also just reprocessing the feedback and reactions to TFA? I mean, its not the prequels where we know how the last movie in the trilogy is supposed to end. It may also just be seeing what hints or foreshadowing actually worked in TFA and deciding how to reframe some things to make it more a surprise, etc.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:44 PM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, it's going to be up against Avatar 2. That will be an interesting showdown, given that Avatar is still the highest grossing film ever, but has left no impression or fanbase in the six years since it was released. I hope Episode VIII crushes it.
posted by crossoverman at 7:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Kylo Ren is not the ~~sinnamon-roll~~ "breakout character" they were expecting with women... but Matt the Radar Technician is.

We live in weird, weird times.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:45 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Han and Chewie were looking for the Millennium Falcon. It is a proven game-changer in galaxy-wide conflicts, and it actually turned out to be instrumental in blowing up real good yet another Deathstar.

Sure, but waiting for a ping to pop up on a scanner console for twenty years seems a bit too much like work for Han and Chewie.

I figure they stole a page from Colonel Sandurz and just watched the TFA videotape.
posted by bonehead at 10:07 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Guardian article on the delay says

It is to be written and directed by Rian Johnson*, who is said to have rewritten the scripts in order to focus more on characters from The Force Awakens.

Hopefully this translates to "we didn't realise Rey would be so popular so we're expanding her role".
*Mixed feelings about that, because Looper was a well-made film but it had a nonsensical plot.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:02 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, it's going to be up against Avatar 2. ... but has left no impression or fanbase in the six years since it was released.

There was a thing on twitter recently to name a single character from Avatar off the top of your head... it's basically impossible.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:09 AM on January 21, 2016

There was a thing on twitter recently to name a single character from Avatar off the top of your head... it's basically impossible.

Oh come on. Colonel Quartich. There.

Now if it was more than a single character, I'd be in trouble, because I'd be like "and.... um.... Ellen Ripley, and Zak Young... Does Grandmother Willow count as a character?"
posted by radwolf76 at 4:56 AM on January 21, 2016

I can't, unless one of the aliens is called bluey, which I guess is not that inappropriate with an Australian as the lead. I could name the maguffin made-up metal if that helps?
posted by biffa at 5:00 AM on January 21, 2016

Wasn't there a character named Neytiri, or something like that? I never saw Avatar.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:10 AM on January 21, 2016

Oh come on. Colonel Quartich. There.

I honestly have no idea who that's supposed to be. I'm guessing purely based on rank that he's the main bad guy? Neytiri sounds more familiar.

Hopefully this translates to "we didn't realise Rey would be so popular so we're expanding her role".

I honestly am baffled between this and the toys stuff because like... she's obviously the primary protagonist of the movie? Who knew, the main protagonist of a Star Wars movie might become popular??
posted by kmz at 6:27 AM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

My assumption is that perhaps the percentage of her time on screen was originally more equal to Poe and Finn, but now she'll have more time. That or they want to make her time on screen more interesting other than Luke walking back and forth behind her, while she's ordered to levitate a pebble over and over and over and over.

Rey: Master Skywalker, I...
Luke: Just call me Luke.
Rey: Mast...Luke, I have this levitation thing down, can we move on to something more complex?
Luke: Rey, I only had a few weeks with the greatest Jedi Master ever.
Rey: Master Yoda, right!
Luke: Yes, Master Yoda. But as I was saying...
Rey: He was blue, right?
Luke: No, green, but that doesn't matter...
Rey: Green? I love green! Before I came here I visited the castle of Maz Tanaka and her planet had the most green I had ever seen!
Luke: Yes, green, there was a lot of green on Yoda's planet of Dagobah, but we're moving away from my point.
Rey: Sorry. Green!
Luke: I only had a few weeks with Master Yoda and I thought that was enough to become a true Jedi. But, I ended up getting the entire next generation of Jedi slaughtered by my nephew.
Rey: You never told me how Kylo Ren murdered and betrayed your other students, but I'm sure it wasn't your fault. We can move on from stones, please?
Luke: No, no, it's my fault, at least from a certain point of view...
posted by Atreides at 6:43 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Back in the 80s when my brother and I were pestering her to buy us every Star Wars toy we could get our hands on, my mother was always complaining that there were so few versions of Leia action figures compared to Luke and Han.

That's not entirely accurate.

1978 Star Wars: Han, Luke and Leia each got 1 figure

1980: Empire: Han, Luke and Leia each got both Hoth and Bespin outfit figures

1983: Jedi: Han and Luke each got 1 figure and Leia got 2, her Boushh disguise and her Endor Rebel Trooper gear. (Interestingly, they didn't sell a Slave Leia figure until 1997.)

1984: "Power of the Force" series: Han with Carbonite, Luke in Stormtrooper gear, and Luke in Endor Poncho. This was the only vintage series where Leia didn't get a figure.

I used this site for reference. I didn't count the color/printing variants as extra figures.

It's possible that the Luke and Han figures were produced in higher numbers, but it's difficult to know that 30 years later.

Given the number of Leia figures that have been produced over the years, it's weird that Rey wasn't very well represented, and extra bizarre given that she's the hero of the movie.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:28 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

I honestly am baffled between this and the toys stuff because like... she's obviously the primary protagonist of the movie? Who knew, the main protagonist of a Star Wars movie might become popular??

I too am struggling with this because every time I see the movie poster I'm like - she's the big picture smack dab in the middle of the fucking thing. From the poster alone it is apparent she's a central/pivotal figure of the movie.
posted by nubs at 9:56 AM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Spoiler Alert!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:12 AM on January 21, 2016

There was a thing on twitter recently to name a single character from Avatar off the top of your head... it's basically impossible.

I see you Jake Sully.
posted by Artw at 10:34 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I see you Jake Sully.

There's only one memorable blue guy named Sully, and he hangs around with a little green eyeball.
posted by radwolf76 at 11:27 AM on January 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

Neytiri reminds me of Nefertiri, who besides being real (but spelled slightly differently) was also the past life of Rachel Weisz in The Mummy Returns. I only remember that because I love everything about Rachel Weisz.
posted by numaner at 12:15 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

The thing about Rian Johnson writing Eps 8 & 9 is that, from what I've read, there is still a writer's room on these scripts, so it won't be only his brain that reviews drafts and makes suggestions. Kathleen Kennedy made a comment before TFA opened, in response to whether or not there would be strong female characters, that the 'development team is more than half women, so yes, they know how to write female characters.' Hang on...found it:

Kennedy, one of the most successful executives in the movie business, also revealed that six out of eight of the people involved in developing the film were women and that 50% of her executive team were female.

“Having a balance of men and women in the room changes the story,” she said. “The dialogue, the point of view.”

This makes me hopeful that Johnson will avoid the pitfalls that made Looper, a very enjoyable film with some fantastic ideas, not hang together quite so well. There will be other writers and producers participating in final script creation. I'm far more excited about what Johnson will likely bring as director. I mean, Ozymandias anybody??
posted by LooseFilter at 1:00 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

I honestly am baffled between this and the toys stuff because like... she's obviously the primary protagonist of the movie?

Honestly this speaks to and crystallizes a thing I've been feeling since I saw the movie - this sense that they didn't actually have the balls enough to make Rey the star of the film - that they are leaning hard on Finn as this quasi-star so that the lead isn't really a woman. And that's why they gave Finn lightsaber scenes, and that's why they are building some bullshit romance that she has to have with him - so that little boys who are uncomfortable empathizing with girls, or that they think are, can slot Rey into "just the girlfriend who happens to have powers" slot, while Finn is the real hero. They sure didn't have any problem merchandising the fuck out of him!
posted by corb at 2:04 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

corb:"..slot Rey into "just the girlfriend who happens to have powers" slot, while Finn is the real hero.."
I get this feeling too, and it frustrates me. That said, it could be worse - at least Finn is definitely not Yet Another Fkn White Guy Hero.
posted by coriolisdave at 3:22 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

this sense that they didn't actually have the balls enough to make Rey the star of the film

Except, they did, because she's the one left standing at the end and Finn is unconscious. More likely, they gave Finn lightsaber stuff to lull the audience into thinking he's the hero, only to discover he's not. It's progressive and regressive at once - playing on the audience's assumption that the woman wouldn't be the hero.

My concern is that further movies could diminish this. There's no "surprise, the hero is Rey" reveal anymore. And Rian Johnson could suddenly focus on Finn and Poe.

Or Finn/Poe. They need seven months to add in more gay.
posted by crossoverman at 5:12 PM on January 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

Like Star Wars, it's an ensemble piece with one protagonist having particular prominence, ajd yeah, that is undoubtedly Rey.
posted by Artw at 5:17 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sadly, while I would love the fuck out of Finn/Poe, I straight up do not think they have the balls to do so. Especially given how tough a time they are having with the utterly uncontroversial act of producing a female figurine in their toy lineup.

The reversal only works if they keep it flipped - ie, keep having Rey central with Finn more peripheral to the story (and not giving him the lightsaber again, Chriiiiist). But I just don't have the faith in them to get that right.
posted by corb at 5:45 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Especially given how tough a time they are having with the utterly uncontroversial act of producing a female figurine in their toy lineup.

Who is "they?" It keeps being thrown around like a synonym for Lucasfilm/Disney but they aren't the ones making decisions on that level. (They could, if they think about it beforehand, but that seems unlikely here.) I guarantee that Hasbro had the *rights* to Rey.

These are the same manufacturers who control marketing/tv shows and used their influence to get Young Justice canceled because there was a confounding audience of girls that they were not prepared to deal with.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:13 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

RE: Finn toys... One thing that's made me sad is that the more collector facing Finn figures (The Black Series*/Funko) haven't really sold that well at my work/nearly achieved peg-warmer status. It's extra surprising to me because the store gets a really diverse selection of customers.
posted by drezdn at 7:01 PM on January 21, 2016

Maybe it's because the only figure people want is Rey?
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:10 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

I love the 12" Finn but have held off on buying him until they have the same size with a revealed face for Rey and Poe (and please for Hux and Kylo for more nefarious reasons), because otherwise, Finn is too big to play with our 6" Rey dolls.

Plus Finn doesn't really have a costume as such. You can dress up a stormtrooper and put on Poe's jacket, I guess. They need to fix that in the next film and get him something that's his (plus the jacket, because if they have him without The Jacket, there will be distraught wailing).

12" trio, please. And a 12" of General Leia so she can boss them about and be awesome and complete the vast array of Disney Princess dolls we now have (besotted 4-year old "jedi-engineer-Rapunzel-Rey" and me)
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:37 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've been thinking about Finn and realized he's kinda got the Worf Effect. The amazing accomplishment of this movie is that at the end we still feel like he's not a joke. (Poe also gets a little Worfing to demonstrate Rey's mental fortitude, but he's still the best pilot in the galaxy so he's got that going for him.) I hope that since we've now had Rey's awesomeness demonstrated to us that everyone can stand on their own in future movies.
posted by charred husk at 6:47 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the only time Finn picks up a lightsaber again will be under one of two possible conditions: 1) He actually is Force sensitive (I'm still leaning towards nope); or 2) Rey is present, but in some way, disarmed/incapacitated - such as we saw in the movie. Other than that, it'd have to be a taun taun belly slicing moment.

I feel as if Finn and Rey were established as friends by the conclusion, but then again, the romance didn't really pick up in the Original Trilogy until Empire. Though, one report on casting for Episode VIII (from last September, mind you), implied they were going to cast another woman to play a potential love interest for Finn. More recent reports also have also implied that that role might be reduced, so who knows!

Part of the problem with a romance between Finn and Rey requires a geographic proximity. By all accounts, it's probably a good bet that Rey will spend a good chunk of time with Luke in the next movie, leaving Poe and Finn to have their own adventure. (Which has it's own kind of weird problem because that requires kicking Poe out of his X-Wing, since Finn isn't a pilot - so if they're together, then one or the other is out of their preferred element). Argh.
posted by Atreides at 8:29 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

On the other hand, we've established that Poe can fly literally anything with a high degree of skill and that Finn is a pretty good shot in a gunner's turret. I think they can work something out.

As unusual as it would be for the series, I wonder if VIII won't have a multi-year timeskip to after Rey has already finished her training with Luke and left his hermit planet to rejoin everybody else, with Rey's training being explored in a series of flashbacks throughout the film. (Well, I mean, the multi-year timeskip is par for the course for Star Wars, but not so much the flashbacks.)
posted by tobascodagama at 8:43 AM on January 22, 2016

By all accounts, it's probably a good bet that Rey will spend a good chunk of time with Luke in the next movie, leaving Poe and Finn to have their own adventure

I feel like they've kind of created the potential for a structural similarity with Empire; Rey is off learning Jedi stuff, while Poe & Finn have an adventure, get into trouble, and Rey comes to the rescue.

In a way, that could be fun - I want more of Poe, and I like Finn, but I also really think it potentially sidelines Rey too much and leaves them open to the criticism that they are just redoing the originals. So I'm hoping they've decided to delay things and rework the script to change it up a bit. Maybe Luke & Leia get into trouble and the three have to go save them?
posted by nubs at 8:46 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

BuzzFeed has some fan art
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:34 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

BuzzFeed has some fan art

Aww, I really like that this was Buzzfeed soliciting prompts and making them in-house, and not snagging other people's stuff off Tumblr or whatever. That always makes me kinda sad.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:03 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I feel like they've kind of created the potential for a structural similarity with Empire; Rey is off learning Jedi stuff, while Poe & Finn have an adventure, get into trouble, and Rey comes to the rescue.

I like it! The only question is: when the shit starts to go down, and Poe & Finn find themselves on death's doorstep, which one says "I love you" and which one says "I know"?
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:18 AM on January 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Poe: "I love you."

BB-8: *Welding-Torch Thumbs Up*
posted by radwolf76 at 10:25 AM on January 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

I like it! The only question is: when the shit starts to go down, and Poe & Finn find themselves on death's doorstep, which one says "I love you" and which one says "I know"?

As much as I would like it to be Finn, I think Poe is the one with the right degree of cockiness.

Not quite as good - after saving their asses, Rey gets the "I know" line.
posted by nubs at 10:32 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

The only legit way to reuse the "I know" line is if Kylo Ren says it to Leia, meaning something quite different from what his dad meant.

(And you know he's heard that story. "...and you know what your father said to me?")
posted by straight at 10:51 AM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

The only legit way to reuse the "I know" line is if Kylo Ren says it to Leia,

Done right, that scene would be a gut wrenching experience and totally awesome and I want it.
posted by nubs at 10:56 AM on January 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

BuzzFeed has some fan art

#14 is just perfect for the internet.
#18 wtf is uh.. going on with their... R2D2's.. poking stick?
posted by numaner at 11:02 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

The only legit way to reuse the "I know" line is if Kylo Ren says it to Leia,

Done right, that scene would be a gut wrenching experience and totally awesome and I want it.

Something along the line of...

Near the end of episode VIII, Kylo corners Leia. He's just sliced her blaster in half and she's defenseless. She finally lets the force in, prepares for her death.

Kylo: You can still join me, mother.
Leia: No, Ben. But just know that I love you.
Kylo: ................... I know.

Then he cuts her down, but she disappears ala Obi-Wan and becomes a force ghost in episode IX.

Emo Kylo Ren: My own mother wouldn't even let me have her body to bury next to my eventual grave. #lonelyheadstones
posted by numaner at 11:07 AM on January 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

one report on casting for Episode VIII (from last September, mind you), implied they were going to cast another woman to play a potential love interest for Finn.

I WILL GIVE SO MUCH MONEYS TO SEE Tatiana Maslany IN STAR WARS. She can play ALL the clones!
posted by numaner at 11:10 AM on January 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

Witch sestras and pilot sestras and army sestras...
posted by tobascodagama at 11:48 AM on January 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

I was thinking of something more like: "I know. [My evil plan depended upon taking advantage of that.]"
posted by straight at 12:02 PM on January 22, 2016

Kylo: You can still join me, mother.
Leia: No, Ben. But just know that I love you.
Kylo: ................... I know.

Then he cuts her down, but she disappears ala Obi-Wan and becomes a force ghost in episode IX.

Something like that - I'm thinking a larger set piece, like the carbon freezing room from Empire; Leia has been captured and is about to be subjected to some horrible process, and just before it starts:

L: Ben, I love you.
K: I know. *hits switch*

No pause - like Han in Empire, it's an immediate assertion - but Ren is behind his mask, voice distorted; we have no idea what he is really thinking/feeling in there, if anything.

Anyways, we can hash this out as we all keep working on the drafts; see what combination of things lands the right emotional punch.
posted by nubs at 12:05 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Because, I mean, Disney is likely going to be calling on many people from this thread to be script doctors, right? Right?
posted by nubs at 12:09 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Kylo: Mom!!! I hate you!
Leia: I know.
posted by dogwalker at 12:29 PM on January 22, 2016 [16 favorites]

Disney is likely going to be calling on many people from this thread to be script doctors, right?

This is why I'm staying with this thread! Ms. Kennedy, I'm waiting! I'll be totally awesome, promise.

Don't let my lack of experience or expertise or, you know, talent deter you. I WILL BE AWESOME FOR YOU.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:04 PM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Leia: Give it up, Ben! I have the high ground!
Kylo Ren: I know, Mom, god!

...is that not what you were going for?
posted by Errant at 3:38 PM on January 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Leia: We named the dog Kylo.
Ren: I know!
posted by nubs at 6:03 PM on January 22, 2016 [23 favorites]

Fun fact I just discovered:
Star Wars: Aftermath author Chuck Wendig was a credited game designer on Gamma Word's (6E) Mutants and Machine book.

So, using logic, we should be getting a Gamma World film someday soon.
posted by Mezentian at 4:03 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

one report on casting for Episode VIII (from last September, mind you), implied they were going to cast another woman to play a potential love interest for Finn.

NO

NO

THAT CANNOT HAPPEN
posted by Anonymous at 5:23 PM on January 23, 2016

I had a thought about Rey's ace bandage outfit: are they trying to make her look like a mummy? Is that a hint to her background?
posted by medusa at 2:12 PM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's probably more an allusion to Luke's Tatooine outfit. If you look at it, you'll see he's wearing wraps/bandages from the knee to the foot on both legs.
posted by Atreides at 3:22 PM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

THAT CANNOT HAPPEN

Of course not. After all that flirting over the jacket, clearly Finn and Poe are meant for each other....
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:36 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Normally I am all in favor of more queer pairings, but in this case FinnRey Or Death.
posted by Anonymous at 5:33 PM on January 24, 2016

I don't want Rey to have to end up with anyone, so I'm all for Finn/Poe or Finn/any-other-woman.
posted by crossoverman at 6:12 PM on January 24, 2016 [10 favorites]

Yeah, I'm in camp Rey Stands Alone, so any Finn romance is fine (though Poe is best).
posted by corb at 6:28 PM on January 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

For the love of god, NO, no FinnRey, please. Can't we just have a good friendship on screen without immediately pairing them off ?
posted by Pendragon at 1:48 AM on January 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

Add me to the idea of Rey remaining entirely untangled through the film. If she's the second coming of Luke Skywalker (so to speak), beyond a goofy grin when his sister laid a big one on him, remained unattached outside of friendships. I'd like to see Rey given that same opportunity.
posted by Atreides at 7:10 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Stupid Kylo Ren Has The Wrong Darth Vader Helmet
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:51 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Stupid Kylo Ren Has The Wrong Darth Vader Helmet

Jeebus... seriously, what is with that hair?
posted by Etrigan at 7:59 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fiberglass.
posted by Atreides at 9:11 AM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

It would be great modeling for boys, too. "Hey, friendship isn't just a thing I pretend on the way to romanceville, friendship with ladies can be an awesome end in itself!"
posted by corb at 9:24 AM on January 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

How about Rey and Finn almost start a romance, but they both realize that they think of each more like... brother and sister!
posted by Green With You at 10:30 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

By the way, we were about > < this close to not having a comment in this thread over 24 hours. Thankfully, Mezentian chirped up with a fun fact and saved it all.
posted by Atreides at 1:36 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

we were about > < this close to not having a comment in this thread over 24 hours

(my reaction)
posted by LooseFilter at 2:30 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

But in honest truth, there's a probably plenty of new and original conversational material waiting to surface about the movie or related to the movie.

I love to write about Star Wars, but even after four showings, I'm still not feeling like I can accurately write about TFA yet without it being some incoherent mess of multiple ideas and what not. I don't know if it has to do with the level of my enjoyment or simply the combination of that with some weird reservoir of excitement and passion that since the Phantom Menace came out has been kind of frozen and only now really beginning to flow freely.
posted by Atreides at 2:58 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I might add, for the first time in a long time, being a Star Wars fan focused on the present has become super fun. Clone Wars and bits and pieces of the Prequel Trilogy provided something, but it was incomplete or restricted to the scale and mediums being deployed.
posted by Atreides at 2:59 PM on January 25, 2016

...some weird reservoir of excitement and passion that since the Phantom Menace came out has been kind of frozen and only now really beginning to flow freely.

That's hibernation sickness. Your eyesight will return in time.
posted by infinitewindow at 3:29 PM on January 25, 2016 [11 favorites]

I think Mr Ren is just perfect!
posted by Flitcraft at 4:42 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

I just watched this. I have so many thoughts, you guys! [eyes 2,660-comment thread warily]
posted by naju at 4:45 PM on January 25, 2016

naju, don't worry. We feel it too.
posted by cgc373 at 4:47 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Huh. Misremembered the line. It's "Don't be afraid. I feel it too."
posted by cgc373 at 4:50 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've been thinking about Ren's line "I feel it too". I think "it" is the light side of the force, or its "pull".

Earlier, to Vader's mask:

KYLO REN: Forgive me. I feel it again. The pull to the light.

Later, as Ren is subconsciously beginning to use the Force:

KYLO REN: Don't be afraid. I feel it too.

posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 6:46 PM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

the antecedent of that pronoun:

"I've been thinking about Ren's line "I feel it too". I think "it" is the light side of the force, or its "pull"."

That's what I assumed, too. Or maybe just the Force in general. Perhaps there is a sort of pull that is part of why Force users that sense each other, like two Highlander Immortals being near each other.

Either that or (CUE HIGHLY UNLIKELY THEORIZING) the Light Side isn't so much about "life" as it is about "order" while the Dark Side is less "death" and more "entropy". I'm reminded of the characterization of Dr.Fate (the golden age comic hero) by some writers where he is on the side of good only because he keeps stuff from trying to be destroyed. In his head, though, he dreams of a world of silent and still order, which in a way is terrifying in itself.
posted by charred husk at 5:17 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Blood and souls for my Lord Vader!
posted by Artw at 7:22 AM on January 26, 2016

Yeah, I wondered at the time if the mind-probing trick always creates some kind of resonance when one Force-user does it to another. Kylo could have expected that, yet still been surprised when Rey was strong enough to push back.

I can't remember: by that point, had he seen her definitely use the Force? If he hasn't but was still unsurprised by whatever the feeling was, that lends credence to Kylo at least suspecting who Rey is.
posted by hippugeek at 7:29 AM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

/Actually would watch an Adam Driver as Elric movie, come to think of it.
posted by Artw at 7:32 AM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

charred husk, I like how you think, but remember that in this movie Hux calls the Republic a "regime that acquiesces to disorder", so I don't think the filmmakers see it that way.

Myself, I woke up in the middle of the night from a dream and had the following idea, which I can't quite make sense of in the light of day (and which I also doubt is a direction the filmmakers will be going): For thousands of years, the Light side of the force expressed itself through hundreds or thousands of Jedi. At the close of Return of the Jedi, there was just one. Anyway, I imagined that the Light and Dark sides of the force both somehow have a drive that is independent of any individual to cause themselves to be expressed. With fewer Jedi, that drive becomes more concentrated on the few who begin training or are otherwise touched by it. For Luke's young padawans, Ben in particular, that initial expression of Light was so powerful it felt like loss of self. Then Ben/Ren becomes a tragic figure, his personal weakness and fear of his own death making him find any way he can to block out the influence of the Light. You'd do anything to avoid self-death, including the murder of your classmates and later your father, if you have Snoke whispering in your ear that it is the only way.

Rey, when she first touches the lightsaber, gets a taste of the same thing: the experiences of the Light, almost as though it is an individual in its own right. Her first impulse is the same, too: to reject it. But later, particularly at the moment when (as Maz had told her, earlier, to do) she closes her eyes, she lets the Light enter her. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it is the Light itself that finishes the duel, but it certainly wasn't Rey alone.

What will happen in the next movie(s)? Rey could become the incarnation of the Light. Or, the self-reliance she learned on Jakku could allow her to master the Light without losing herself. Ultimately, maybe becoming a servant of the Light is such a personal sacrifice that instead of a Jedi Order, there will only ever be two: a master, and an apprentice. In a galaxy that seems so very small, they simply pop up anywhere and everywhere to set things right. Oops, I just invented Doctor Who.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:44 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think you mean Doctor Fate, at least as how he was portrayed in the 80s/90s.

Or maybe 90s Hawk and Dove.
posted by phearlez at 7:50 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

(CUE HIGHLY UNLIKELY THEORIZING) the Light Side isn't so much about "life" as it is about "order" while the Dark Side is less "death" and more "entropy".

I'm not sure I agree with that; I think it's more likely that the Dark Side is about "power" than about anything else - the Emperor did away with the messy bureaucracy, etc. It seems to favour a "strong person" system of governance (which becomes troubling when we think of some of the political views that Mr. Lucas espouses.) Whereas Yoda went into exile on Dagobah, and I've always assumed it was because Dagobah is teeming with life of all kinds - it was a chaotic environment, but a rich one for the Force.

Maybe there is a simplicity/complexity axis to view them along, or something about diversity. Most often I think it is about the motives of the Force user - is this about getting something for yourself (the selfish users of the Dark Side); or is it about doing something for the larger collective - defending the weak, preventing war, seeking justice, using the Force to serve rather than impose (the Light Side). This is a slippery slope rather than the binary choice it tends to be presented as, because we certainly see Jedi do things that are to their advantage in a situation (Qui-Gon with Watto; Obi-Wan with Stormtroopers, Luke in Jabba's palace), but I think the argument they would make is that they are doing so to protect the innocent/weak or advance larger interests.

But perhaps this explains what happens to the Jedi in the prequels - they've shifted from that service focused model to a more aggressive use of the Force which clouds their judgement and ability to use the Force, leading to their downfall.
posted by nubs at 8:51 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

The dark side is feels.
posted by Artw at 8:52 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

The dark side is coffee, the light side is tea.
posted by bonehead at 9:05 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

You're tearing me apart!
posted by Artw at 9:06 AM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

the light side is tea.

I could go for a nice rooibos.
posted by nubs at 9:17 AM on January 26, 2016

I'm with nubs, the Dark Side is power, not chaos. Arguably, it's actually order, too, but I think order is a byproduct of power. You are seduced by the power to create order. Both the Empire and the First Order operate on the idea of bringing order to the galaxy (I swear Vader pitches order as part of his plan to convert Luke) and as Maz points out, the Empire was essentially an extension of the Dark Side (the governmental extension of Palpatine). Incidentally, Palpatine sewed chaos in the form of the Clone Wars to gain power, and then used that power to establish order, to gain even more power.

I'm guessing a lot of the working ideas of the Dark Side and the Light Side are a combination of what we learn in the Original Trilogy and the Force heavy episodes of The Clone Wars and Rebels.
posted by Atreides at 9:33 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I swear Vader pitches order as part of his plan to convert Luke

You swear correctly - "With our combined power, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:22 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

You swear correctly - "With our combined power, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy."

See also this exchange from AotC:

ANAKIN
We need a system where the
politicians sit down and discuss
the problems, agree what's in the
best interests of all the people,
and then do it.

PADME
That is exactly what we do. The
trouble is that people don't
always agree. In fact, they
hardly ever do.

ANAKIN
Then they should be made to.

PADME
By whom? Who's going to make them?

ANAKIN
I don't know. Someone.
posted by nubs at 10:35 AM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

On the other hand Palpatine just wears his role as chancellor/emperor like a suit and uses it to seed general shitbaggery.
posted by Artw at 11:34 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

ANAKIN
Then they should be made to.

PADME
By whom? Who's going to make them?

ANAKIN
I don't know. Someone.

The dialogue... IT BURNS!!
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:43 AM on January 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't recall if this is before or after he admits to killing a bunch of sandpeople kids and it just sits there.
posted by Artw at 11:47 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

The dialogue... IT BURNS!!

It's like sand, so coarse and rough and irritating.
posted by nubs at 11:54 AM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think that still stands as the worst movie, despite some bits with Obi-Wan being fun. The final prequel movie is probably way worse than you remember it though.
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Attack of the Clones would be like 900% better if you just removed all the dialogue.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:05 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's like the dialogue consists entirely of placeholders that are supposed to have a particular subtext, but they just put them all in as text.
posted by Artw at 12:06 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can you imagine being Jonathan Hales and being brought in to take a pass on that script? I mean, where would you even begin?

"N-n-no, George, it looks pretty good, I think you got it. Nothing for me to do here. Well, you misspelled "senate" on page 32, but... W-what? Oh, no, I don't need a credit... Y-you insist? Uh, gee, thanks, George... You shouldn't have..."
posted by entropicamericana at 12:47 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Attack of the Clones is the best of the sad lot, to me anyways. It had a handful of moments which actually felt like Star Wars.

Attack of the Clones would be like 900% better if you just removed all the dialogue.

That would be an interesting project. Silent and B&W. Or maybe with subtitles. From a completely different script re-telling the story.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:16 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you can find the fanedit The Blackened Mantle, it's worth a watch. It's a Japanese dub with rewritten subtitles. YouTube took it down because reasons, but I'm sure you could find it somewhere.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:43 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Attack of the Clones would be like 900% better if you just removed all the dialogue.

I've long said that Attack was a great action short buried in an awful movie.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:27 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

What I don't understand, is if Tom Stoppard and Carrie Fisher were paid to polish the screenplays of the prequels, what they hell did they do or did George throw it all out?
posted by crossoverman at 5:50 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

or did George throw it all out?

George (finally) did not have a say. And it was good again
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:01 PM on January 26, 2016

George threw it all out before he even hired them. He was reallllly realreallyreally going for Erol Flynn swashbucklers mashed up with Robin Hood serials mashed up with Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon serials. He hired script doctors, people with a knack of patching up plot-holes and giving dialog punch. He needed to hire damn Spielberg to break the concept down to fundamentals, and build it back up layer by layer.

No, scratch that. We've all seen the lead-lined fridge nuked. Spielberg would have made a dramatically less clunky clunker, but clunker the Phantom Menace would be. The upside is that we would have been spared Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull, as Steve would have noped the hell out of that.

Let me re-iterate - we've seen Spielberg try to rehab a George Lucas joint where Lucas felt he was in charge. He failed in a way we're just not used to seeing Spielberg fail. I mean, at least 1941 was entertaining...

There was never any hope for the prequels. None. Ewan McGregor picked up the entire franchise and carried it's massive rendering datacenter upon his broad Scottish back, and he is the only reason at all to give the filthy thing even a glance.

Lucas thinks this is true as well, because, yes, if Old Ben had fought Darth Vader, Obiwon would have won. That's the only takeaway Lucas gives us here. Awful.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:05 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

The greatest crime of the prequels is that they somehow gave us a boring Christopher Lee character. You have to be failing really, really hard to make that guy boring.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:20 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

You know, I'm sure I'm going to get it bad for this, but I actually liked the political talking and scheming and maneuvering of the prequels. That was one thing that I thought was done better and wanted more of.
posted by corb at 7:29 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I as well! Only I wanted it in amazing, irreproducible alien dialects that of course everyone was conversant in. A Wookie arguing with a Jawa about politics! We got kinda sad sorta-Asian and and sorta-Greek and sorta-Scottish accents for our non-humans instead.

The one part I would have been interested in, also wrecked by trampling over the originals by mocking non-Anglophones trying to speak english. Also Jar Jar, whose accent thing is just I cannot even. Unpacking it would be like opening one of those trick cans of peanuts.

But... I am sorry. We are of a generation that burns with shame. We need to let go.

My daughter couldn't even watch the whole movie through, too scary, but her favorite in The Force Awakens is Chewbacca because HE'S SO CUTE! This is also why he's her favorite in the original trilogy.

Our children will look upon the prequels like we look upon the Christmas Special or some of the less engaging novels. An odd cultural artifact on the way from Return of the Jedi to the Force Awakens, nothing more.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:38 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Our children will look upon the prequels like we look upon the Christmas Special or some of the less engaging novels. An odd cultural artifact on the way from Return of the Jedi to the Force Awakens, nothing more.

My son will not look upon the prequels at ALL. Not while he lives under my roof!
posted by Fleebnork at 6:49 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Prequels will always exist in this weird space of being the lesser films, but not something entirely banished, if only because other interesting stuff has come out of them - such as both Clone Wars animations, for example. They just started an Obi-Wan and Anakin limited series comic book (issue 2 comes out today), and so far it looks like it might be pretty entertaining. They contain a lot of really interesting events and stories, even if their own personal framing and telling of them are simply lackluster, incomplete or failed. I suppose it could be quite possible to allow this Expanded Universe (beyond the Prequel films) to serve as the backstory to everything post Revenge of the Sith, and perhaps, it might even be better.

Also, just to get your bile up and going: A young Han Solo almost appeared in Revenge of the Sith where he would have been raised like an adopted son by Chewie and would have met Yoda. (This is from a 2013 article, but in the last day or two, the story has been picked up again and circulated due to the casting of a young Solo for anthology films.)
posted by Atreides at 7:03 AM on January 27, 2016

I watched Midichlorian Rhapsody last night and determined that there is no longer any reason for someone to watch the prequels, since this sums them up perfectly in 6 minutes to the tune of Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody.
posted by larrybob at 10:00 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

There was a brief moment when I wondered if Captain Phasma was somehow related to Finn in a still unknown manner that would explain why she easily agreed to lower the shields and somehow didn't get him in too much trouble for demonstrating unusual, non-Stormtrooper behavior in the beginning of the movie.

I also love Rey and fervently wish they don't give her a love interest. She does not need one. Little girls (and women who grew up wishing Leia had been given so much more to do) deserve to have a heroine without a man to inspire and save her and also a man to inspire/save/reform with her love.

Also, I read each and every one of these comments. I don't know if I'll remember all of them but I am feeling a weird sense of accomplishment right now.
posted by theappleonatree at 10:12 AM on January 27, 2016 [11 favorites]

You should feel proud. You are on the path to learning the ways of the MeFi Force.
posted by numaner at 10:22 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Had my 3rd viewing yesterday and kept an eye out for a few things.

- Apparently Maz never told Rey to "let it in", and Rey never even closed her eyes when Maz said to do it. She just says to close your eyes and feel the force.
- In IMAX3D, the parts in the regular 2D where Han's jacket looked blue were all brown, except on Starkiller Base against the snow. So the 3D glasses do affect that.
- I can see how people can think that's a grave next to Luke. There appears to be disturbed dirt and a small piece of rock standing kind of upright as a headstone. But during the drone pan at the end from the other side it does look like just a random rock laying there on grass. I'd wager it's not a grave because with the force Luke could just use a bigger rock for the headstone.
- During the fight with Kylo, before she let the force in, Rey relied a lot on thrusting moves, which is pretty ineffective if you're not that skilled, as she is, with a sword. She'd obviously benefit from a dual blade like Darth Maul, given her quarterstaff skills. After she gained the advantage she was able to do a fast thrust and stabbed him in the shoulder (the same one that Finn hit, actually).
- I swear Rey's "Noooo" when Han gets stabbed gets shorter every time I watch the movie again.
posted by numaner at 10:32 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Behind the scenes of Undercover Boss: Starkiller Base
posted by numaner at 10:33 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

She'd obviously benefit from a dual blade like Darth Maul, given her quarterstaff skills.

Oh, excellent point! Rey would make for a great Jedi Shadow. And while originally developed by/for Sith, there are definitely precedents for double-edged lightsabers being used Light-side.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 11:08 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Speaking of lightsaber thrusts, I don't recall that ever being a thing before. It was all slashing before, right? And suddenly, everybody is poking with them.

Haven't seen the prequels since they came out; barely pay attention to the cartoons when the kids are watching them. Just seemed... different.
posted by Etrigan at 11:32 AM on January 27, 2016

If I recall correctly Palpatine fights using more thrusts than the Jedi.

(I was one of those people who hated the choreography of the prequel saber fights. Palpatine's were some of the better fights.)
posted by Seamus at 12:34 PM on January 27, 2016

I'm sure this was posted in either the Blue or the White, but I can't seem to find it in this thread.

Why Chewie shot Ben in the spleen
posted by numaner at 12:54 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yah, at some point in the back half of season two for Rebels they make their way to a Jedi temple or lightsaber training room, where it appears they encounter Jedi Sentinels/Training Robots? who are armed with the double-sided lightsaber. In fact, it looks like at a glimpse, that they reveal the Jedi used a variety of lightsabers other than your standard.
posted by Atreides at 1:20 PM on January 27, 2016

Speaking of lightsaber thrusts, I don't recall that ever being a thing before. It was all slashing before, right? And suddenly, everybody is poking with them.

Qui Gonn was killed with a thrust.
posted by ignignokt at 1:34 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Guys I finally saw this.

It was pretty great! There was space battles and space friendships and space wizards and space feelings!
posted by The Whelk at 1:39 PM on January 27, 2016 [17 favorites]

Let us know. When you are caught up reading the thread.
posted by Artw at 2:35 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

QUI GONN WAS KILLED WITH A THRUST
posted by chrchr at 2:46 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

wondered if Captain Phasma was somehow related to Finn in a still unknown manner that would explain why she easily agreed to lower the shields

..actually, that tweaks a thought. Combined with the "Is Finn a Sensitive" theory, that if Finn accidentally tapped into the Force and Force-compelled Phasma to lower the shields?

Would make a degree of sense.
posted by coriolisdave at 5:18 PM on January 27, 2016

What's an upwardly mobile single mother to do these days? Abandon the child on a desert planet.
-- Cosmospolitan
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:29 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

it's weird to me that a weapon without any real mass to speak of is constantly being swung like a club

I thought this up into recently, but it occurred to me that, while there might not be much mass, they make a lot of noise. The greater the velocity, the louder then noise. That kind of noise sounds like vibration. Could the vibration be triggered by air resistance? If so, then maybe you actually do have to swing hard in order to get it to where you want it be in time sometimes.
posted by ignignokt at 5:46 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Aetheric flux.
posted by Artw at 5:52 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

This was stated upthread (maybe by me? it's been so many wheel-scrolls ago I've forgotten), but regardless of mass they still have a physical, tactile interaction with the world. So even if they can cut through many things, those objects still have their own density that has resistance against the beams, so you have to push by the hilt. That builds on what ignignokt said. And it gives credence to the fighting style of having to perform and deflect direct swings; you can probably also fight like fencers with rapiers, but light jabs, even though they'll hurt like hell, aren't as damaging as just a deep cut.
posted by numaner at 6:52 PM on January 27, 2016

recut as an anime intro

music is Colors by the group Flow, and used in the opening for Code Geass
posted by numaner at 6:53 PM on January 27, 2016

So I don't think this has come up in this TWO THOUSAND PLUS THREAD but I really liked how Rey is clearly someone who has spent *a little too much time alone* and has an uncalibrated social sense that's kind of janky and all or nothing cause yeah that's how I start to sound I haven't talked to another human being in person for a week or more.
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 PM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]

also, this Original Series fanvid cause Leia Organa Has Been A Badass From Day One Dammit
posted by The Whelk at 9:01 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think I would like a fight style that involves turning it off and on again. Like off, move, on, flip, off, etc.
posted by Iteki at 9:19 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Iteki: "Like off, move, on, flip, off, etc."

Lightsaber Rave
posted by Rock Steady at 9:23 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

New (to me) anyways theory on Rey: Anakin Skywalker, reincarnated.
posted by nubs at 11:04 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

A lot of that argument rests on the premise that Rey has never received any Jedi training or was exposed to it. On top of it, one could probably draw the same parallels to Luke. It's interesting, but I strongly believe that the only Anakin presence in this movie will be his relationship as the grandfather to Kylo Ren. Disney/Non-Lucas Lucasfilm understand the problems associated fairly or unfairly with the Prequel Trilogy and I'm not sure if they want to tie the Prequels so strongly to the Sequels. I'm kind of convinced all Prequel era or related material coming out right now is designed almost entirely to help rehabilitated the movies.

For example, how many were itching for a pre-Clone Wars Obi-Wan and Anakin comic book series? I'm reading it and enjoyed the first issue, but did I gaze wistfully at the comic book stand and wish it into being? Naw. The best thing that can happen to the Prequels is to create enough material involving the events and characters in them and make it incredibly entertaining and fun. That enjoyment will shade future viewings of the films, and provide the background structure to help overcome the apparent flaws.

So would they go out on a limb and make Rey spirtually Anakin? I.....don't think so.
posted by Atreides at 11:35 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think I would like a fight style that involves turning it off and on again. Like off, move, on, flip, off, etc.

Lightsaber battoujutsu.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:51 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think I would like a fight style that involves turning it off and on again. Like off, move, on, flip, off, etc.

You're in luck: Tràkata! [On preview: bah! beaten!]

...OK, I have spent way too much time on the SW wiki the past two days.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 11:53 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh don't feel bad, it's a great site! A riveting read is the manufacturing history of the R series astromech droids, like how the R5 was such a disastrous line, mostly because Industrial Automaton wanted to create a budget-friendly version. However the R5s were very buggy and had bad personality. After the Battle of Endor, the R6 series were launched in an attempt by IA to repair their reputation, with great success.
posted by numaner at 12:15 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

How Obi-Wan may have ended up with a lover.
posted by drezdn at 11:40 AM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Of course he's a Coruscant hipster, especially the first half of TPM.
posted by numaner at 3:53 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

GregNog: ...all delicate and skittery and poke poke poke poke.

Hey, keep your fanfic off the front page, please.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:15 AM on January 30, 2016

Hello (From the Darkside)
posted by nubs at 8:57 AM on February 1, 2016

that needed to also cover the verses
posted by numaner at 10:00 AM on February 1, 2016

Looking at this thread, I think I am offically the last MeFite to see the new Star Wars.

I loved it! Perfectly entertaining call-back to the original trilogy that was definitely needed to draw me back in after the prequels. I guess you could call it lazy how much was borrowed from the originals, but again...this series badly needed to reconnect with what made it so great in the first place.

Loved Kylo Ren as a villain, though I was really surprised how weak and vulnerable he was. Even as a warrior he couldn't easily beat Finn, and then he got beat by Rey, despite neither of them having so much as used a light saber before. He also seemed to be like the black sheep of the family when talking to Snoke (who...you know when you choose to appear as an enormous 30-foot tall projection, you come off as if you're making up for something. Wanna bet he turns out to be Yoda-sized?). He felt like an angry teenager. I read later he's supposed to be 30 or something, which is a bit surprising considering his ridiculous hero worship, complete lack of any ability to deal with his emotions, and insecurity. Like, apparently that mask serves no purpose other than to look like a bad-ass like Vader? I guess he's got that whole Luke Skywalker man-child thing going on; he was supposed to be 20-something in the original but acted like he was about 13.

There was plenty of corny in this, especially with Han meeting Kylo Ren; it seemed as though Abrams wrote himself into a corner there. It was pretty obvious Ren was gonna stab him, because if he had actually had a Come To Jesus moment there it would have been even more poorly executed than what we wound up with. But I can forgive that because the originals were also pretty corny and poorly-executed when it came to anything that required human emotion. With all the fandom it feels like people overlook the fact that Star Wars is mostly just pretty dumb fun, and I feel like this one succeeded in getting back to the heart of it.
posted by Hoopo at 4:09 PM on February 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Official Announce Trailer
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:54 AM on February 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Rumoured DVD and Bluray release date: 5th April
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:07 PM on February 2, 2016

Like, apparently that mask serves no purpose other than to look like a bad-ass like Vader?

Kylo wants to be Vader, but he may not know what Vader looked like under the mask or how much Anakin paid to become Vader. One thing the prequels tried (with little success) to drive home was that Anakin had to be destroyed in order to force him thoroughly to the Dark Side. Having lost everything he cared about there was nothing left to tempt him toward the light -- except, as it happened too late, his own son.

Kylo knows he looks like the lead singer of a boy band when he takes the helmet off. If he didn't want to at least sometimes be that sexy heartthrob he could take more drastic measures, as Darth Maul did. So he really is cosplaying Darth Vader. He doesn't want to be Darth Vader badly enough to disfigure himself to commit himself to the path. So he uses the mask. Masks are powerful magic and this is a galaxy where some kinds of magic actually work, so the mask is probably doing more for him than giving him a cosplay thrill, but it's not doing what being maimed or disfigured or 100% tatted up would do. He can still take the mask off and pick up pretty girls at the post-cosplay party.

I suspect he won't be able to do that by episode IX.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:36 PM on February 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

Kylo knows he looks like the lead singer of a boy band when he takes the helmet off.

☆RENSYNC
posted by Iridic at 4:40 PM on February 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Looking at this thread, I think I am offically the last MeFite to see the new Star Wars.

I actually haven't seen it yet (I read the book). I plan on going later this week.
posted by drezdn at 4:42 PM on February 2, 2016

☆RENSYNC

BactaStreet Boys
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:43 PM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

☆RENSYNC

BactaStreet Boys

New Sith On The Block
posted by radwolf76 at 4:49 PM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Kylo knows he looks like the lead singer of a boy band when he takes the helmet off.

Boyz II Ren
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:18 PM on February 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

RENSYNC

BactaStreet Boys

New Sith On The Block

Boyz II Ren

New Rendition
posted by numaner at 5:42 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

RENSYNC

BactaStreet Boys

New Sith On The Block

Boyz II Ren

New Rendition

KylO-Town
posted by dogwalker at 5:55 PM on February 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Han Direction
posted by tobascodagama at 6:20 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Renudo
posted by Mchelly at 6:21 PM on February 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

BB-8 Degrees
posted by Atom Eyes at 7:26 PM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Radar Technician At The Disco
Modest Matt
Matt the Radar Technician and The Muffin Sweats

I made all of these up just now, but I am certain they are all on Tumblr somewhere and have been for weeks.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:47 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

RENSYNC

BactaStreet Boys

New Sith On The Block

Boyz II Ren

New Rendition

KylO-Town

Five Parsecs of Summer *

* They don't know it's a measure of distance either.
posted by crossoverman at 8:00 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Matt the Radar Technician and The Muffin Sweats

Son of a Sith! Get me a Binks! One more Jedi, and I'll get clean!
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:10 PM on February 2, 2016

A friend of mine who's working on the Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens game just sent me a link to this Game Informer Coverage Trailer.

There's also this — apparently leaked — game trailer too.
posted by ZipRibbons at 5:23 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

So he really is cosplaying Darth Vader.

I was trying to do a Darth Vader voice the other day and it came out just like Kylo Ren's voice. It made me wonder if there was an intention by Driver (or he was directed by Abrams) to try and imitate James Earl Jones.

The Lego trailer is delightful. I need more animated Lego Star Wars (More Droid Tales please!).
posted by Atreides at 6:44 AM on February 3, 2016

Obi-Wan Direction
The Jango Brothers
posted by Rock Steady at 6:46 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I of course sniff at all this and will be over here listening to First Order play Blue Lifeday.
posted by Artw at 6:54 AM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

How does it feel?
posted by drezdn at 6:59 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Like an energetic new electronic spin on Jizz music with only slightly worrying fascist implications in the name and uniforms.
posted by Artw at 7:05 AM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

(The fact that someone thought "jizz" was a good name for a fictional style of music never fails to entertain me.)
posted by Seamus at 7:10 AM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Jizz!
posted by Artw at 7:22 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

First used in 1983 (or 1995, as a stand-alone word).
Then in 2007 they had to use "jazz" on packaging because someone in marketing realized how stupid it was.

I wonder when jizz became a slang term for semen. Definitely before 1995 and probably before 1983.
posted by Seamus at 7:30 AM on February 3, 2016

Jism dates to the 19th century, may actually be the root for Jazz.
posted by Artw at 7:35 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

The use of the word 'jizz' for a music style becomes exponentially more amusing when you find out that the in-universe term for someone proficient in said style is 'jizz wailer'.

(Also, yes Lego TFA please. I absolutely adore the various Lego games and their frankly amazing sense of comic timing -- the little ways they interpret the source material is always tons of fun. Plus, really great 2 player casual gaming)
posted by tocts at 7:37 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

The OED (the one I have here) doesn't have a separate entry for jizz, just as a derivation of jism. In the examples, the first use of "jizz" is 1968, so it definitely predates the appearance of the term jizz-wailer in the Novelization of Jedi.

(The OED and Star Wars in the same comment. And Mom said I'd never amount to anything.)
posted by Seamus at 7:49 AM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Loved Kylo Ren as a villain, though I was really surprised how weak and vulnerable he was. Even as a warrior he couldn't easily beat Finn, and then he got beat by Rey, despite neither of them having so much as used a light saber before.

It was shocking to me the first time he took off his mask how vulnerable he looks; he really is playing dress-up to cover the fact that there is nothing on the inside. He lacks a core identity. Someone else in the thread pointed out the similarity between Darth Vader and the Death Star (mechanical outside, humanity buried inside) and Kylo Ren and the StarKiller - normal outside, hollow within, and I think that is pretty accurate. I'm also wondering about masks and identity in general in the film/triology, given Finn/Ren/Phasma and Snoke, and his apparent use of hologram technology to (likely) distort his true appearance. I'm wondering if there's going to be a bit of a theme about evil and hiding identity and masquerades.

Anyways, I think it is important to remember during the final duels that Ren has two wounds going on - one is physical, where Chewie shot him; the other more psychic/emotional, from killing Han. I don't think he's really operating at 100%; and Rey is pretty much paralleling Luke from ANH, where this farmboy who we've never seen fly (although we've been told he can) winds up being picked to lead one of the 3 assault run groups, over experienced pilots like Wedge - she can do remarkable things, the Force is strong with her, even untrained. I think that duel sequence is designed to reinforce both Rey's "specialness" right alongside Ren's weakness - his own fear of not being special. (Which still makes it remarkable to me that there is this claim amongst the marketing/toy people that they didn't realize everyone would react to Rey over Ren; of course we are going to! Why would I want toys of a hollow man who has turned to evil because he can't think of anything better?)
posted by nubs at 8:49 AM on February 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

(Also, yes Lego TFA please. I absolutely adore the various Lego games and their frankly amazing sense of comic timing -- the little ways they interpret the source material is always tons of fun. Plus, really great 2 player casual gaming)

LEGO Jurassic World is, by far, the best Jurassic Park game ever made. And I've played most of them.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:31 AM on February 3, 2016

Chloe Bruce: Daisy Ridley's stunt double
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:00 AM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm fairly certain she's doing Chun Li's kicks from Street Fighter rather than Tae Kwon Do, that was amazing... now I'm really hoping for a double-lightsaber for Rey. (Come to think of it - weren't parts of her staff marked off with tape, perhaps to simulate a double-lightsaber hilt?)
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:20 AM on February 3, 2016

the mask is probably doing more for him than giving him a cosplay thrill, but it's not doing what being maimed or disfigured or 100% tatted up would do.

Other than some intimidation, I didn't really pick up on much magic from it. Like, in addition to looking like a bad-ass like Vader, I suppose he gets the benefit of the riot squad look that is at least partially designed to instill fear.
posted by Hoopo at 11:36 AM on February 3, 2016

Chloe Bruce: Daisy Ridley's stunt double yt

Great, as if I didn't need more of a reason to hate my current balance abilities while doing repetitive kicks. The full standing split just made my brain hurt.

It would make a lot of sense for Rey to transition to a double sided lightsaber.
posted by Atreides at 1:05 PM on February 3, 2016

These distinctions get a little fuzzy when you throw Space Wizards into the mix, but I believe nubs is talking about narrative/symbolic magic rather than the kind of magic that throws rocks around.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:06 PM on February 3, 2016

These distinctions get a little fuzzy when you throw Space Wizards into the mix, but I believe nubs is talking about narrative/symbolic magic rather than the kind of magic that throws rocks around.

Yeah, that's what I'm on about - the symbolism of the mask and hidden identities. Ren wears the mask and a different name; Snoke uses holograms; Finn is behind a mask to start, but leaves it behind to become something new; Phasma is also behind a mask and maybe she is something other than what she seems at first too (or maybe I'm reaching). Rey is also hidden, in terms of her identity not being clear.

Name changes and identity reveals have always been part of Star Wars (Anakin to Vader; Ben to Obi-Wan; Yoda doesn't reveal his true self for a while; Padme and her stand-ins), but in thinking back over the TFA, there seems to be a bit of a confluence of people in masks and/or hiding. Finn removes his (and note the trouble he gets in for taking it off without permission) (it also gets marked first, and while part of that is making it so we know who he is during the opening sequence, that marking is symbolic of him becoming an individual) and becomes someone different; Kylo takes his on and off and to a certain extent, seems like a different person with and without the mask. For him, it is a symbol of his divide, and I wonder if we won't see him committing more to being with or without the mask in the coming films as he comes to fully be Kylo Ren (or perhaps to be Ben - what if he turns to the Light in the next film, a reverse of ESB's temptation of Luke - Ren is tempted back to the Light and agrees? Now the Resistance has to deal with a man who fought for the First Order and committed atrocities, but who has valuable knowledge and skill for their cause? What if the marketing department went all-in on Ren because eventually he'll be the/a hero, rather than the man who killed Han Solo? I'm hoping that isn't his arc - I think watching him fall further and further to evil out of a lack of conviction and his sense of not being/achieving anything special like his parents & uncle & grandfather is a more compelling narrative around these questions of identity, but who knows what gets hatched in writer's rooms).

Anyways, my rambling thoughts on this idea/train of thought that got started somewhere when I couldn't sleep. I really do need to go see the film again.
posted by nubs at 2:46 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jizz (birding)
posted by Pendragon at 6:16 AM on February 4, 2016

Oh god, the joke potential
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:29 AM on February 4, 2016

This is like the Joker's boner all over again.
posted by tocts at 7:37 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Daisy Ridley's stunt double looks like a very angry and very dangerous Nancy Botwin. She also looks a lot like Daisy Ridley, obviously. And it would be an absolute delight for Rey to wield a double-bladed saber. Maybe one that she can split in half for when you only need the one blade. Like to open a can of beans or whatever.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:43 AM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Chloe Bruce: Daisy Ridley's stunt double yt

Wow, Star wars kid has really improved...
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 8:49 AM on February 4, 2016

So, Better Call Saul has shown up on Canadian Netflix, and my wife and I have been binge watching. Which is making me think about Breaking Bad. And I woke up at like 4am this morning and couldn't sleep and starting poking around in Atredies "Brown's Review" and now I'm thinking about a show called Breaking Ren:

"Who are you talking to right now? Who is it you think you see? Do you know how much evil I do a year? I mean, even if I told you, you wouldn't believe it. Do you know what would happen if I suddenly decided to stop destroying the Jedi? The entire mega-weapon, planet destroying construction industry goes belly up. Disappears. It ceases to exist, without me. No, you clearly don't know who you are talking to, so let me clue you in. I am not in danger, Phasma, I AM the danger. A trooper opens the blast door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"
posted by nubs at 8:58 AM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Finally saw it, and really enjoyed it. I loved all the actors, but especially John Boyega.
posted by drezdn at 11:03 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was really surprised to see the actor who played Miles from Lost in it, and I didn't notice him but apparently Emun Elliot from The Paradise (or Marillion from Game of Thrones) was in it too.
posted by drezdn at 6:13 AM on February 5, 2016

Emun Elliot is just an alter-ego of Joseph Fiennes, right?
posted by Seamus at 6:37 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was surprised to see Ken Leung, too, actually. He plays an admiral recruited to the Resistance by Leia, and according to the Visual Dictionary, almost comes across as one of her closest confidantes in the group. I'd say we will definitely see more of him in the next movie.
posted by Atreides at 8:13 AM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Kinda spoilery....

It was pretty ok. I didn't hate it. It would've been really great if there was a plot with some weight. ...and if it didn't seem like most of the movie was "I don't have to explain this, it just has to happen to get us to the next scene." Liked Rey, even though her backstory is 'parents were taken, scratching out an existence waiting for them to come back.' Finn's ok. Wasn't re-programmed after not killing people in the village. Didn't die in the saber fight. Not sure why. Kylo is a bad guy because of... angst? Blah. Gwendoline Christie does sweet f.a. Big Bad is cryptic!

Rey flying the Falcon. Rey doing complicated manouevres in the Falcon in a planet's gravity well. Where'd she get the training? Rey knowing that opening that panel and pulling out some wires would fix the broken thing, even though the Falcon's been modified and fixed by numerous people over the decades and wouldn't be like a normal Corellian freighter. Maybe it's the Force that suddenly turns you in to a super pilot, but that's weak. A space-going ship that's sat around for ages can be run against the ground and not fall apart.

Han and Chewie just happen to be in the right section of all of Space in the right craft to pick up the Falcon. Rey sets the poison gas off in the Falcon, but apparently didn't.
2 teams of bad guys get eaten by monsters just to give us an excuse to get on the Falcon and zoom out of there.
Going from zero to lightspeed is like pulling out of a parking space. The 3 guys are knocked over and not disintegrated by the engines that have just propelled a craft to plus-light speeds from inside another ship which wasn't destroyed. Also, you can decelerate from lightspeed to really fast in a planets atmosphere and not worry about overheating or controlling a ship that's just come from a vacuum. Also, why not do both of those actions more often? It'd help!
The New Baddies are just like Nazis, so here's a Nuremberg rally to make sure you get that in case you missed that when they My Lai'ed the village.
Once the star's used up, how do you move a planet to another system with out it collapsing? Force fields? Well if you can do that, why not just crush planets with the force field generator - it's be smaller, less money, and less stupid. Also: same fucking plot as the last two movies.
Kylo. I'm thinking he had to have training with a sword, let alone the benefits of using a combo of Force and Sabre tactics. Someone with training beats someone without. Finn would've died in seconds. Rey has got the Force, so now she can do anything the plot needs her to, so of course she won. He tries some mind thing with Rey and doesn't use the Force again because of things and stuff.
There are more plot issues, but... meh. Big BIG plus: they've STFU about the Midichlorian count bullshit.

I thought that with JJ Abrams plotting things that there's be some history, some reason why or how the First Order came to be (instead of "it rose from the Empire's ashes or what..."), maybe some little speeches by Han saying something like 'after I left Luke I went to *this place* and had *this adventure* or how the planets of the Empire were getting on after the fall of Vader or how the New Bad Nazis suddenly got all that money and manpower and science to make a sun-laser. But no. Instead it's a couple of neat characters (independent female characters for the win!) wrapped up in expositional dialogue, hand-wavey explanations, and weird choices. (Phasma. Why does she have shiny armour? Why doesn't she do anything except order the destruction of the village and drop the shields? ...or is that her reason for being? Are we going to get a "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern" type-of-flick out of her? THAT'D BE COOL!!!)
I'll still go to the next 2 movies because as much as I've bitched about it, it's still fun: I'm just hoping the others are going to be more smart than stupid fun.
posted by Zack_Replica at 10:26 AM on February 5, 2016

Also, you can decelerate from lightspeed to really fast in a planets atmosphere and not worry about overheating or controlling a ship that's just come from a vacuum.

I felt very Abramsed when this happened. It really seemed to undercut the whole "traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy" idea that hyperspace jumps are precise and dangerous. In RotS, when they crash land the big cruiser on Coruscant, it burns and breaks up on reentry! That was cool! They even have special flying fire engines to douse it as it's coming in, because this is a thing! But now you can just bloop from hyperspace to a planetary atmosphere with no problem as long as you hit the brakes in time. It's Star Wars! They're in space! Use space, don't plot it like space is an annoying inconvenience to be written around!
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:43 AM on February 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Zack_Replica, I know this is a long thread with a mozillion comments, but most of your complaints have been discussed upthread.

It really seemed to undercut the whole "traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy" idea that hyperspace jumps are precise and dangerous.

I disagree. I figured Han adjusted the calculations to a hair's breadth, so they jump inside of the shield instead of dropping out of hyperspace a safe distance from the planet. It's acknowledged to be a crazy maneuver, and definitely not safe or recommended.

Hyperspace is used in Star Wars sort of like a wormhole. They aren't traveling through physical space when the ship is in hyperspace. The Empire even has ships that generate gravity wells to pull ships out of hyperspace.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:22 AM on February 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Don't want to be too picky, but just a couple of thoughts on Zack_Replica's comments:

Rey flying the Falcon. Rey doing complicated manouevres in the Falcon in a planet's gravity well. Where'd she get the training?

She's a pilot, the same way Luke was in ANH - we are told that they have that skill set, not how they got it. Luke says he is a pilot a couple of times, and then he's flying a fighter in the assault like a hot shot in the assault on the Death Star.

Rey knowing that opening that panel and pulling out some wires would fix the broken thing, even though the Falcon's been modified and fixed by numerous people over the decades

Rey has made a living scavenging in ships, and her comments about the Falcon at various points - who owned it on Jakku and the modifications they had made, along with it being a hunk of junk - make me think she had been on it plenty of times as part of a work crew/whatever. Beyond her scavenging, we have no idea what she did around that camp, and she might have picked up a bunch of different bits of skills.

Han and Chewie just happen to be in the right section of all of Space in the right craft to pick up the Falcon

They were in that section of space because they knew the Falcon was around there somewhere. I'm sure Han says something to that effect.

Rey sets the poison gas off in the Falcon, but apparently didn't.

She was about to, but their position was given away before she could.

Kylo. I'm thinking he had to have training with a sword, let alone the benefits of using a combo of Force and Sabre tactics. Someone with training beats someone without. Finn would've died in seconds. Rey has got the Force, so now she can do anything the plot needs her to, so of course she won.

Kylo is also injured, both physically and emotionally, by the time of the "duel". He still dispatches Finn pretty quickly. And going back to ANH, Luke gets one training session with Ben, and can use the Force to apparently interfere with Vader getting a target lock and get his torpedoes into the exhaust port. Rey seems naturally very strong in the Force, and a quick learner - everything she does is basically based on seeing/experiencing Ren do it first. I suspect Rey's natural strength and ability are going to be part of Ren's continuing slide to the Dark; he's had to work hard, whereas she just can do it.

Anyways, it is Star Wars. For Star Wars to work, heart has to exceed the hoke, and speed of plot has to zoom the audience past the plot holes. This one does that; the prequels didn't; I can forgive the JJ Abrams touches and the lame superweapon as a result. The Star Killer works on a more metaphoric level for what Ren and the First Order are trying to do, and that's how I'm trying to think of it.
posted by nubs at 12:58 PM on February 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

but most of your complaints have been discussed upthread

Ah good, thanks - I had a quick look but must've missed them on the first pass through. It's a looong page.

They were in that section of space because they knew the Falcon was around there somewhere. I'm sure Han says something to that effect

Didn't remember that bit... I'm sure you're right. I found myself wondering why Han and Chewie were smuggling extremely dangerous predators instead.

As for plot holes, I'm ok with a few that can be waved away with 'it's a thing, it'll increase the running time by 25% if we go into it. trust us', but pieces of the story seemed to have been ghostwritten by Doctor Who's Stephen Moffatt. Thank the gods the dialogue for Ren and Finn and most of Leia and some of Han was meant to be spoken by real people. That helped ground the plot to a more human level than the Anakin/Qui-Gon/Padme speech.
posted by Zack_Replica at 2:08 PM on February 5, 2016

Just a happy family portrait.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:52 PM on February 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

I found myself wondering why Han and Chewie were smuggling extremely dangerous predators instead.

Han explains it later, that when he left Leia because of Kylo he went back to doing the only thing he was ever good at (even though he's really not that good at it).
posted by numaner at 3:24 PM on February 5, 2016

I found myself wondering why Han and Chewie were smuggling extremely dangerous predators instead.

Because, while Han had a few good years following Jedi, his life has been pretty shitty. He's a really tragic figure, actually.
posted by LooseFilter at 4:03 PM on February 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

Do books exist in Star Wars?
posted by Artw at 8:43 AM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Incidentally, the current Star Wars run by Marvel has featured two issues dedicated to Luke reading a journal kept by Obi-Wan Kenobi. I agree with the article, that it's a skewed presentation of the universe to base your assumptions on.
posted by Atreides at 2:29 PM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is the Journal of the Whills not a book?
posted by crossoverman at 5:13 PM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Star Wars canon is such a hot mess that it's hard to keep anything straight, but working with just the movies it works surprisingly well to assume reading and writing are mostly obsolete in that culture. I could easily see people who are inclined to keep a diary keeping it by holovideo, the way lots of people do it with YouTube even now. And the very first scene of Ep 4 where in the heat of battle Leia uses Artoo to record her plea to Obi-Wan is consistent with the whole idea.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:25 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Reading is for slaves, clones and robots.

Maybe the secret to Anakins alleged technical prowess is he can actually read the labels on things.
posted by Artw at 6:27 AM on February 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

The reading thing also reminds me of a line John Varley dropped into one of his Ophiuchi Hotline stories, set in another high-tech spacefaring society where nearly everyone is illiterate. A character is thinking of becoming an asteroid miner, and asks his computer some questions about the investment, the ship, the danger, etc. Finally he asks:

Pilot: Wait, wouldn't I need to be able to read?
Computer: Of course not, that's what computers are for.

posted by Bringer Tom at 6:36 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe the secret to Anakins alleged technical prowess is he can actually read the labels on things.

Truly, nothing is impossible to those who can RTFM.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:05 AM on February 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

Search the ReadMe, you know it to be true.
posted by Artw at 10:12 AM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Lucasfilm’s Pablo Hidalgo recently teased on Twitter that not only does The Force Awakens’ General Hux have a cat named Millicent, but Millicent’s litter box serves as place where Kylo Ren rests his helmet. Hidalgo hashtagged it #canon and everything.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:17 PM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Lucasfilm’s Pablo Hidalgo recently teased on Twitter that not only does The Force Awakens’ General Hux have a cat named Millicent, but Millicent’s litter box serves as place where Kylo Ren rests his helmet. Hidalgo hashtagged it #canon and everything.

I am here for this.
posted by Anonymous at 7:03 PM on February 10, 2016

As with many things a late adopter, I came to this thread to vicariously join the opening throngs after. Three weeks later I got to the bottom. I saw it about the same time folks were feeling like they must be the last attendees. I felt a similar urge to action.Need not have worried as even then theaters had it showing every thirty minutes.

I took eldest Daughter Lawless after an audition process against A New Hope that winnowed out her sister as the movie theater did not include an upstairs in which to mostly hide. I will forever hold the memory of her seven year old fists balled like twins before her face during one of the more intense scenes. It was right or flight in mostly a good way. Empire was my first film at about the same age so I get it and hoped to have a mind blowing experience with her first visit to the big screen as well. At one point I was concerned when she leaned over and said she did not want to see any more Star Wars films but it sounds like that was a passing sentiment.

The matinee ($10 for us both, whuuuut?) crowd was surprisingly senior. We went on MLK day so some folks had to work but most kids would be off. Only a couple other kids in there and the theater was comfortably filled.

My wife and I are curmudgeons and our children go to a curmudgeonly school that it rather anti media and for good cause; they spend a lot of time with story, song and myth to foster young imaginations and it is difficult to complete with Hollywood. Usually this is not much of an issue and only really noticeable in a lack of merch amongst the diaspora. I have not gotten the sense that they have ever made an appeal to the children though they know their school's policy. Elder Lawless and her tablemate thus ended up a conspiracy of maybe the only two kids in class who had seen it.

In a self regulating moment the duo spoke of it only in code so as to avoid adult scrutiny. Being seven their choice was "S Wars, the F Awakens" which is cute.

I was struck that theses films invoked more character empathy than any of the other films. The character interaction is more natural and human and somehow contemporary in a way the original trilogy was not. I wondered after the fact that this will make this film more disposible, if the weird mythic aloofness was part of the originals' ability to endure

Lots o' fun, both this film and this thread. I heart mefi as it's never wanting for things that had not occurred to me and companionship in the weird things that did.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 7:12 AM on February 15, 2016 [10 favorites]

MetaFilter: Never wanting for things that had not occurred to me and companionship in the weird things that did.
posted by MonkeyToes at 11:52 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

For the first time today, I went to the movie theater for the first time and didn't go see The Force Awakens. But, that's okay because I saw it for the fifth time on Friday. I don't know if it's the super fan that I was up through high school re-emerging (a very definite possibility) or the movie itself, but it remains completely entertaining and exciting with every viewing I take of it. If anything, after you crawl over that hump of no longer looking to take everything in, then going home and finding out you missed some small detail, and then going back to look for it, etc....it becomes like a favorite song that you know well and can mouth the words to comfortably while cruising down the street or trying to pass time while you wait for others. I've seen it five times and even now, I'm excited that in April I'll get to buy the blu-ray and immediately start watching it again at home.

I love to write about Star Wars, the comics, the books, and the tv shows, but, not until now do I even feel as if my brain can adequately be put to task to write up a review of the film. A tad late, huh?

Also, way yonder back, I offered to write up some factoids out of the Visual Dictionary for the movie. I've got that book now and if anyone is interested, I'll be happy to do so, short of transcribing the thing. Just let me know if there's any remaining interest.
posted by Atreides at 2:31 PM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't know if these are technically canon, but the Lego Star Wars: The Resistance Rises clips are starting to appear on youtube and super-super-cute - Poe to the Rescue!
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 12:52 AM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

You folks are slipping,
Episode VIII is a'comin' any day now, and there's 22 seconds of NEW! footage* from the NEW film.

*Footage is technically new, or B-roll/second unit from TFA
posted by Mezentian at 2:04 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

Most teasing teaser ever.
posted by Artw at 6:54 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

It was a weird experiencing seeing the footage. "THE ANGLE IS ALL WRONG, WHATS GOING ON, ARGH, I'M STILL HAPPY."

Concerning the Lego Star Wars stuff, it's been said to draw upon canon, but it, itself, is not canonical. They won't create a third droid from the Original Trilogy to join C-3PO and R2-D2, but they might make the pair discover a flair for disco dancing.
posted by Atreides at 7:33 AM on February 16, 2016

Or probably better put, just laugh, enjoy it, and know nothing is anything you have to remember for all future canonical discussion.
posted by Atreides at 7:34 AM on February 16, 2016

By comparison, LEGO Jurassic World shows that Muldoon, Nedry, and Hammond are alive, well, and hanging out in a jeep in the restricted area of the new park, 20 years later. So that's the level of "non-canon" the LEGO stuff operates on.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:39 AM on February 16, 2016

But in the movie, you never see them die. OH GEEZ, was Nedry really just Nerdy rearranged?!
posted by Atreides at 7:44 AM on February 16, 2016

NEWMAN!
posted by Artw at 7:53 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

Laura Dern and Benicio del Toro in VIII
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:08 AM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

Thanks, dorothyisunderwood. Disney XD was supposed to play that video last night after the Gravity Falls marathon ended... but apparently only in the States. Here in Canada we got nothin'. Glad I can show it to my youngest now.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:21 AM on February 16, 2016

Plagueis creates Anakin. Palpatine destroys Plagueis. Palpatine creates Empire. Obi-Wan destroys Anakin. Palpatine creates Vader. Vader destroys Palpatine…woman inherits the galaxy.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:24 AM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

....Inferior people should not be employed.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:39 AM on February 16, 2016

So we know VIII will likely continue where VII left off, on Skellig Michael.

Interesting. Was a bit worried they'd do a time jump and waste that first meeting.
posted by bonehead at 9:28 AM on February 16, 2016

It's too critical a moment to pass over. Millions of ears reached out to hear the first words from Luke's lips, they will not be silenced!
posted by Atreides at 10:30 AM on February 16, 2016

So we know VIII will likely continue where VII left off, on Skellig Michael.

I can't find a source right now as Google searches are bunged up with TFA stuff, but I believe it was confirmed shortly after TFA's release that Episode VIII starts right where Episode VII left off, and that some shots for Episode VIII were actually done as part of filming Episode VII.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:55 AM on February 16, 2016

Millions of ears reached out to hear the first words from Luke's lips, they will not be silenced!

Luke reveals that he has spent his time alone rehearsing his version of Michael Jackson's "Thriller".
posted by nubs at 11:08 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

super-super-cute - Poe to the Rescue!

dammit I gotta get the new Lego Game when it comes out
posted by numaner at 11:15 AM on February 16, 2016

Love this tweet from ‏@pablohidalgo:
Ep VIII production announce video shows camera crew behind Luke and Rey when TFA made it clear they were alone. PLOT HOLE.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:28 AM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]

Only tangentally related to things here -- I looked up the meaning of STAT to day, and found a Wikipedia summary page that told me it probably means "Short Turn Around Time, most often used in the medical field for a procedure that needs to be done very quickly," and also referenced "STAT, Star (Wars) The Aboriginal Trilogy" - this is just a joke thing, right? It looks like it came in when another bit of nonsense left, and I can't find any other reference to it online. I was really hoping for an Australian re-make of the original trilogy.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:00 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pablo Hildago really has the worst job in the world; can you imagine the faceless horde of nerds clamoring for his attention to settle some arcane argument?

(Unless he's tenured, in which case he has the best job in the world: "Nope, that's not what the Kessel Run is; Han Solo was just talking out his ass." "Sorry, the prequels aren't canon, they were actually just a story told by C-3PO. Turns out he really isn't very good at telling stories, just like he said." "What? No, his first name isn't 'Sheev,' it's 'Big Poppa.'")
posted by entropicamericana at 12:43 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

I looked up the meaning of STAT to day, and found a Wikipedia summary page that told me it probably means "Short Turn Around Time, most often used in the medical field for a procedure that needs to be done very quickly,"

FWIW, it's not an acronym. It's short for the Latin statim, "immediately or without delay".
posted by Rock Steady at 1:36 PM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'll bet someone backronymed it.
posted by Artw at 2:46 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

Vader destroys Palpatine…woman inherits the galaxy.

....Inferior people should not be employed.

Ah, that's unfortunate timing!
posted by Mezentian at 11:40 PM on February 16, 2016

EXT. Skellig Michael, Day

Luke and Rey are in the same position they were in at the end of the last episode, Rey holding out Luke's father's lightsaber.

LUKE:
Away put your weapon. I mean you no harm.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:06 AM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Gary has some breaking news about Space Bears.
posted by Mezentian at 2:32 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

I need an Earth to Carrie (or Gary) Fisher translator.
posted by crossoverman at 12:25 AM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Carrie Fisher's emoticon usage is either genius or the result of her randomly punching a few to accompany her photos or other words. I tend to think it's the former, but without enough background in her usage of them, they are almost impossible to decipher. I'm also glad she's back on set. I want her to have a much bigger role this time around, if only for the franchise to tell the haters to shut up and sit down.
posted by Atreides at 9:17 AM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

I've seen her post translation keys occasionally. I can't be arsed to track them all down and consult them when she posts something, though. At any rate, her emoji use is decidedly not random, even if it is a bit overwhelmingly obtuse.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:52 PM on February 22, 2016

The Sound of a Galaxy: Inside the Star Wars: The Force Awakens Soundtrack

I hope there is lots of behind the scenes goodness like this on the DVD.

Cuteness overload warning: John and Daisy meeting John Williams. :-)
posted by dorkydancer at 9:32 PM on February 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

I finally have started putting down thoughts on this movie. 60+ days after it's release. First thought, though, has to do with the visual storytelling in it, for those interested or bored.
posted by Atreides at 6:53 AM on February 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Thanks for that Atreides; one of the things I found striking about this film is the visual storytelling, something I felt was really lacking in the prequel films which seemed to be fixated on "isn't this a cool visual" instead of "isn't this a cool visual that informs the audience as to what is happening". The OT did visual storytelling, so it was nice to see a return to that in TFA.
posted by nubs at 8:45 AM on February 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think the tweet says 'You rang?'
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 11:53 AM on February 23, 2016

schroedinger: Look, we're all going to ride on the Star Destroyer Finn/Rey OTP, and anyone who suggests getting off and going somewhere else will get fed to a rathtar.

Read this as Star Destroyer/Rey OTP

the immediate followup comment "I think it was pretty clearly telegraphed that that that relationship is a platonic friendship" was either an amazing deadpan or I was missing something

turns out it was the latter
posted by vibratory manner of working at 4:31 PM on February 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Doesn't have to be.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:43 PM on February 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Star Wars to be protected by 'drone army' during Episode VIII filming

Subs missing a 'drone wars' pun there
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:23 AM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

It would be great if the drones were dressed up like the flying droids in Mos Eisley in the SE, and then there can be a repeated mantra around the set, "We don't want any of those extra droids flying around into the frame!"
posted by Atreides at 7:39 AM on February 24, 2016

Begun this Drone War has.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:29 AM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

Make the instant bread from Star Wars: The Force Awakens with this recipe
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:01 PM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Make the instant bread from Star Wars: The Force Awakens with this recipe

Otherwise known as "Green Tea Mug Cake", but that was of course before Lucasfilm got their hands on it.
posted by effbot at 4:51 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Modern Adventures of Han and ~~Ben~~ Kylo
posted by numaner at 2:11 PM on February 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Modern Adventures of Han and Ben Kylo

FPP
posted by sparklemotion at 3:35 PM on February 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

May the Force be with the folks nominated for Oscars tonight in these categories:

Film Editing, Original Score, Visual Effects, Sound Editing and Sound Mixing.

I am so in love with the score for TFA. The Jedi Steps and Finale has been in heavy rotation in my car recently. It's like a Whitman sampler of the whole score in one track. So, so good. :-)
posted by dorkydancer at 5:55 AM on February 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

When I first saw TFA, I was almost underwhelmed by Williams' score. With every viewing and now every repeated listening of it, I'm just as equally in love with it. As someone who has held up the majesty of the Original Trilogy (against the Prequels) for so long, I almost feel blasphemous by saying that it's just as good as the Original Trilogy scores, if not better than some of them. Perhaps after I listen to it for the 100th time, I will get a more grounded perspective, but right now, I adore it. Everything from the Jedi Steps and Finale to the Scavenger to the March of the Resistance, as well as the mournful moments when the Starkiller Base fires.
posted by Atreides at 9:12 AM on February 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

The original Star Wars score was completely off the charts. It had things that were familiar to classical music, and elements that were intensely alien. The blare of brass and woodwind, especially - strings were there to keep us grounded and invested by appealing to convention, but the flights of intense fancy the brass and woodwinds were put to was amazing. Bizarre, brash, intense, music not made for nor meant to be heard by human ears, without being weird and unapproachable. Williams, much like Harrison Ford, has kept himself in the game, here.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:10 PM on February 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Modern Adventures of Han and Ben Kylo

FPP

literally 5 minutes before me! I would've made an FPP if I didn't think it was slightly spoilerish
posted by numaner at 8:06 PM on February 28, 2016

The original Star Wars score was completely off the charts. It had things that were familiar to classical music, and elements that were intensely alien. The blare of brass and woodwind, especially - strings were there to keep us grounded and invested by appealing to convention, but the flights of intense fancy the brass and woodwinds were put to was amazing.

The original Star Wars score is excellent, but the orchestration is straight out of the Late Romantic playbook. Not sure what the referent of "classical music" is here.
posted by invitapriore at 3:53 PM on February 29, 2016

The original Star Wars score is excellent, but the orchestration is straight out of the Late Romantic playbook. Not sure what the referent of "classical music" is here.

Well, it sure as shit ain't Country and Western.

Note bene - there is a difference between Classical Music and Classical Period Music. The former is likely called such because of the strong and lasting influence of the latter. You still ain't gonna move that mountain back over to "art music."

I know it may drive the purists nuts, but I still call all modern electronic dance music techno, too.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:37 PM on February 29, 2016

I'm pretty aware of that distinction, thanks. What I'm saying is is that the music that John Williams cribs off would be well-recognized by anyone on the street as "classical music" in the sense of canonical Western concert music, so it's weird that your definition apparently excludes it. His orchestration is skillful, but it's really not novel.
posted by invitapriore at 9:19 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm familiar with Williams drawing upon other works, like Holst, but as someone who's pretty musically uninformed, I'm curious, is this apparant in the TFA score? Are there works out there that I can tune into to enjoy them as a source material?
posted by Atreides at 6:40 AM on March 1, 2016

...so it's weird that your definition apparently excludes it. His orchestration is skillful, but it's really not novel.

Ah! No, I meant alien as in "not human." Like Chewbacca, or Sand People. It's definitely drawing from a deep well of inspiration. Stravinski and Holst come immediately to mind.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:32 AM on March 1, 2016

I like the part of the Jurassic Park score where the raptors perform a ritual to celebrate the return of spring.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:54 AM on March 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ennio Morricone, Imma let you finish, but everyone knows that John Williams is the best film composer of all time. OF ALL TIME! :-D

Okay, so I was a little bit disappointed that JW, nominated for his 50th(!) Academy Award did not win, but honestly, Maestro Morricone is a legend in his own right, so although I am Team Williams to the bone, I am glad for Morricone.

This is a cute (if poor quality) little video of John Williams at the Society of Composers & Lyricists’ annual reception.

Summary:
"Each nominee was called to a podium by SCL president Ashley Irwin, presented with a conductor’s baton, and invited to say a few words. Williams, 84, drew laughs when he noted that he “especially wanted to congratulate a gentleman who has been such an inspiration to all of us younger composers,” calling out the 87-year old Morricone. The two maestros enjoyed a convivial conversation, with the aid of Morricone’s interpreter, on the restaurant’s patio before the presentations began."(via jwfan.com)

posted by dorkydancer at 12:35 PM on March 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens will be released on DVD. Digital download on April, 1, 2016. Blu-ray Combo Pack and DVD on April 5, 2016.

The extras look amazing!

aaaaand I will now stop spamming this thread. :-)
posted by dorkydancer at 10:09 AM on March 3, 2016

Star Wars: The Force Awakens In-Home Trailer

Okay, okay, now I'm done!
posted by dorkydancer at 10:15 AM on March 3, 2016

There's a short clip in that trailer showing how at least one version of the BB-8 puppet works, which is neat but also probably proves Neil DeGrasse Tyson correct. He commented on twitter that a robot like BB-8 wouldn't get any traction in sandy environments like Jakku. That was criticized on the basis that BB-8 was a real robot, on the assumption that it was entirely a remote-control setup I guess.

We can see in that trailer though that the puppeteer is physically connected to BB-8, so would probably be able to just push her through any sections without traction.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:39 PM on March 3, 2016

Pre-ordered it a few weeks ago. I don't often watch the extras, I will on this one.

As for BB-8, like R2-D2 could have traversed the sandy dunes, either. Heh.
posted by Atreides at 12:49 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Shh, we're not supposed to talk about the lizards any more.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:08 PM on March 3, 2016

Why did I always think those things were worms? Was there a larval stage or something?
posted by Etrigan at 1:12 PM on March 3, 2016

Probably confused them with some other magic space opera worms. Not those, though. Or the other ones.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:06 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just remember, slugs inhabit asteroids.
posted by Atreides at 2:08 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

I saw it on the tiny screen on a transatlantic flight last night, so it's got to that point in its life cycle.

Nice movie, I enjoyed it a lot. Rey is a bit too all-round-awesome-at-everything (she reminds me of Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind like that), but Daisy Ridley manages to get away with it. In fact, the cast are generally winning, and it's especially nice to see Harrison Ford having so much fun. I don't have a problem with the Starkiller Base - the First Order are generally shameless half-assed revivalists, of course they'd make a stupidly enormous Death Star knock-off. And the whole destroying-the-Republic sequence is pleasingly Wagnerian (assuming one can find something pleasingly Wagnerian).

In terms of the music: in the other films (though not TFA), Williams has channeled Prokofiev (perhaps Russian 20th century music in general - there's something quite Shostakovichy about the Empire Theme). If you listen to Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet, Cinderella and The Love of Three Oranges you'll see what I mean. He doesn't take specific notes or tunes so much as textures and harmony. There's a wonderful scherzo over the credits of one of the prequels (I think the second one) that's gloriously Prokofiev, and resolves into the Empire theme at the end.
posted by Grangousier at 1:14 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Rey is a bit too all-round-awesome-at-everything

There's like 2800 comments to dispute that
posted by numaner at 8:02 PM on March 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

But not successfully! She's all too easily a bad-ass without having had to earn it, where Fin is, with great difficulty, a bad-ass while having had to earn it and hard. They completely do not resent each other and feed off each other and are grateful for each other being there. I love it.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:25 PM on March 4, 2016

Just remember, slugs inhabit asteroids.

Have you tried crushed eggshells?
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:35 PM on March 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's like 2800 comments to dispute that

Rey has also been trumped by Ezra, and who is better at the force than Ezra?
No one.
No one is better at the force than Ezra.

So, basically, on the evidence we have, Luke, who is kinda our standard for a trainee Jedi who is a natural force user, is actually a bit crap at it.

(Also, do we all love the Professional Purple Background?)
posted by Mezentian at 3:08 AM on March 5, 2016

With the exception of Anakin, Ezra is the only Force user we've seen with a reliable and ongoing trainer in the ways of the Force. Hrm.
posted by Atreides at 8:44 AM on March 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Poor Anakin. He really needed a student.
posted by Artw at 8:47 AM on March 5, 2016

(Also, do we all love the Professional Purple Background?)

Very Mace Windu
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:13 AM on March 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ezra is the only Force user we've seen with a reliable and ongoing trainer in the ways of the Force. Hrm.

Kanan was a Padawan learner until this week.... and yet he's the most competent Jedi we've ever seen.
Watching him and Ezra work of each other in a fight is actually kinda 'mazing.
posted by Mezentian at 3:52 PM on March 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Ahsoka stuff in that show is so great... But I guess that is a different thread.
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on March 5, 2016

But not successfully! She's all too easily a bad-ass without having had to earn it.

Seriously?

Finn was basically at military school. Not saying that he didn’t have challenges, but basic needs for survival were clearly not one of them.

Rey was abandoned by her parents on a desert planet in the “care” of Unkar Plutt who sees to it that she only eats and drinks enough to be able to make a profit for him. Do you really think that a girl is able to fight and use a weapon like that just by magic, and not because she was very likely physically (at the very least) threatened on a regular basis? With no family, and no one really looking after her and having to work so hard to survive with those challenges I think that Rey has more than earned her bad-ass status.

Also, the new background is AWESOME.
posted by dorkydancer at 5:49 PM on March 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Ahsoka stuff in that show is so great... But I guess that is a different thread.

True, but it seems interesting to see how they are weaving TFA with Rebels into a singular canon so tightly, at least as far as Malachor goes.

And, who is to say that Ahsoka won't turn up in Episode VIII? (Which, I know, won't happen: but it should.)
posted by Mezentian at 7:48 PM on March 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

uhh.. you guys are totes confusing me. I just looked up who Ezra is, you guys need to take that back to the Rebels threads! Shoo! Go on, get outta here!

And now, Kylo TV
posted by numaner at 8:46 AM on March 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Plinkett Awakens NSFW obvs
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:56 PM on March 9, 2016

Does it contain the out of place misogyny/violence against women humor that killed my attempt to go through his Prequel Trilogy segments?
posted by Atreides at 1:18 PM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Presumably, that's what the "NSFW obvs" comment signifies.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:26 PM on March 9, 2016

It's just the trailer... so there's not that much misogyny
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:42 PM on March 9, 2016

Chewie is going to be in the Han Solo spin-off film. Boy, I hope we get to see the story of Chewie owing Han a life debt and they can bring the Christmas Special into proper canon.
posted by crossoverman at 5:43 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I look forward to the brief moment where they explain Chewbacca is a very common name on Kassshyk and Chewbacca has a very common appearance to the non-Wookie eye, and during the Clone Wars battle on Kassshyk, our Chewbacca was actually sitting in a library on Sullust.
posted by Atreides at 7:24 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Maybe you're thinking of ChiwBakah, they sound very similar when translated into basic.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:31 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think you can even make a "B" sound in Shyriiwook come to think of it.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:34 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Chewbacca's not even his name. It's just something Han made up to call him.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:50 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Exclusive: J.J. Abrams Explains Why Leia’s Hug in ‘The Force Awakens’ Was Probably a “Mistake”

Yessss.... It feels so damn good to have this question/point from this thread absolutely addressed and explained. SIGH.
posted by like_neon at 9:41 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, and he's totally right that the reason it seems weird is that Chewie is in the background of the shot. If he wasn't there, nobody would have given it a second thought.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:22 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

If Abrams were Lucas, then the home video release would have Chewie digitally erased from that shot.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:30 AM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Why erase him when you could just paste a CGI brontosaurus on top of him?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:49 AM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

A singing CGI brontosaurus.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:36 PM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

LEIA
HUGGED
CHEWIE
FIRST
posted by straight at 9:46 PM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

J.J. Abrams was on the Nerdist Podcast last Friday with the director of 10 Cloverfield Lane. They discussed a wide variety of things about career stuff, filmmaking, etc. But what really took me by surprise was that J.J. casually mentions a hugely important moment in TFA that wasn’t even in the original script.(?!) The entire podcast is worth listening to, but it is a bit long (little over 90 mins). I have transcribed the specific part, but this topic starts at about 1:06:51. Nerdist Podcast Ep. 791

The discussion basically is the importance of close-ups to show the emotions and intensity of a scene.

J.J.: For example, when Rey and Kylo Ren are fighting in the woods with the light sabers and there’s that moment when he says you know, ’I can show you the ways of the Force’ and she hears the Force and she closes her eyes and then you see him looking at her and her eyes are closed and she sort of lets it in.

We did that, you know, next door and we did those shots which had never been part of the script, whatever, because I knew when we were cutting it, I was missing the turning point moment where she goes from almost being on the edge of, you know, the cliff, almost meeting her demise, to turning the tables and fighting back and so we did that here and it made the scene powerful and it was literally as close as possibly you could get to her face and all about her eyes, all about his eyes.

Um, but when we were at Pinewood, shooting on that massive stage with you know literally hundreds of trees and you know hundreds of people and it was just, you know, getting those close-ups we just didn’t think to do it because you’re just trying to make the days work.

So, it’s the same thing, that lesson is the same lesson that I think you learn whether you do an episode of a tv show or the first film you’re doing or the latest Star Wars movie it’s always the same kind of thing you have to get those details or nothing will work.

That's so interesting. I feel like that scene with Rey and Kylo Ren was set up in the pep talk Maz Kanata gives to Rey about accessing the Force. “Close your eyes, feel it. The light. It’s always been there. It will guide you.”

I guess it’s really true what they say that a film is made three times. When it’s written, when it’s shot, and when it’s edited.
posted by dorkydancer at 10:25 AM on March 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Thanks so much for your transcript, dorkydancer. There's no way I'd listen to that whole thing, but I'm glad to have read it.
posted by cgc373 at 3:10 PM on March 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

When J. Kenji López-Alt isn’t cooking he’s a big ole Star Wars nerd.

Rey is a Palpatine

I have a lot of feelings about this. He makes some interesting points, but I need to think about this some more. Like a lot more.
posted by dorkydancer at 9:52 AM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

This is the most compelling to me. From the very first viewing of Episode VII in the theater, I noticed that Rey’s first move upon force-grabbing that lightsaber is to jab at Kylo with a horizontal stabby motion, both hands on the hilt, with a big forward shoulder thrust. This is the exact move that Palpatine uses to take the jedi off-guard when Mace Windu comes to arrest him in Revenge of the Sit

This dies rely on Abrams giving a shit about the prequels though.
posted by Artw at 10:03 AM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Rey is a Palpatine

Hm. Well, I think at least three people suggested that in this thread to this point, some in jest, some seriously. So...
posted by nubs at 10:17 AM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

The lightsaber part strikes me as the weakest evidence:

It’s a fighting style that does not fit into any of the traditional forms, and indicates that the character is powerful and talented enough to forge their own style.

Or, it suggests somebody who has no clue what to do with a light saber and has a strategy of "stick them with the pointy end."
posted by nubs at 10:20 AM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I read at least one other article that examines that possibility closely. His major objection - that she is too young to be Palpatine's child - is solved if we assume she is his grandchild, just as Kylo Ren is Anakin's grandchild.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:22 AM on March 23, 2016

In a universe with functional cloning technology and magic Force babies (though nothing to help pregnant women who lose the will to live), I don't think a question of how/when Palpy reproduced is fundamentally a challenge to there being Palpy spawn.
posted by nubs at 10:24 AM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's true, but I think the parallelism of her being of the same generation as Kylo fits with the whole parallel/cyclical nature of the series.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:29 AM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile there is a large disturbance in The Force.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:36 AM on March 23, 2016

This thread may pick up again, once we all have the DVD.

It's true, but I think the parallelism of her being of the same generation as Kylo fits with the whole parallel/cyclical nature of the series.

Yeah, it would. I was just trying to make the point there were lots of ways for their to be a line descended from Palpatine, not that Palpatine reproducing would be problematic.
posted by nubs at 10:51 AM on March 23, 2016

Palpy spawn

ugh...
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 11:04 AM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

This thread may pick up again, once we all have the DVD.

Definitely will.

Rey is a Palpatine.

I think this has as much sticking power as Darth Jar Jar, despite the author's attempt to remove this theory from the same jar of theories that the Sith Gungan emerged from.

Nubs is right on about the lightsaber technique and Rey's style of fighting is very unsteady and exaggerated (i.e., flailing around almost), so that's out immediately. Second, the anger issue? Kenobi, a Jedi Master, in the Prequels got a little annoyed from time to time. In Rey's case, there's no evidence of excessive anger - she's not off slaughtering Tito and his family, she doesn't pound Finn repeatedly after knocking him down, and so on. Whenever she's angry, it's a very understandable anger, be it stopping someone from taking a droid captive to sell for parts (kill it basically) and I object to claiming Rey went on an anger fueled shooting spree on Maz's planet. I think the reviewer is mixing up exertion for anger in much of Rey's cases (it's called 'gritting one's teeth').

Being dumped on Jakku because she's the child/reincarnation or whatever of Palpatine makes less sense, especially when one see's more sense in putting her there to keep her safe when the Knights of Ren are making a point of running around and killing all the potential Jedi. Likewise, Kylo doesn't kill another Knight of Ren in the vision, that guy is dressed nothing like the Knights of Ren, who have a distinct almost late medieval Germanic appearance to their helmets and what not.

The theme song argument also doesn't really hold a lot of water. He draws upon the scavenger theme, instead of just referencing Rey's theme directly. A great theme argument is the one for Plagueis and Snoke, by the way, that one is convincing. Accent. The British accent has kind of been assigned to the Inner Core planets, while the Scottish type of accent, courtesy TFA appears to be assigned to Mid-Core planets (see the Death Gang scene). Leia was supposed to have a British accent, too, so there's that.

I think these type of theories can be fun exercises via the Devil's Advocate, but the most straight forward dismissal of it is that it makes a lot less sense than almost every other theory out there on who Rey is. If we go to the name element, TFA is replete with the usage of light and dark to signify good and bad. In a movie like that, where light is literally referred to as the sign of hope, a woman named Rey is most definitely named Rey for a reason...and not to necessarily nod to a Spanish meaning.

Gah, I need to go back to work now. -_-
posted by Atreides at 11:44 AM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

so in the Star Wars galaxy, do they call it a No True Mid-Coresman Fallacy?
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:49 AM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Aw, I wouldn't call that crazy. That post fully turned me from "ah, another dumb Star Wars fan theory" to "holy shit that was literally what Lucas planned and then he backed down"

I need to address that theory someday, but I think it has Gungan legs because we want to believe there's more to Jar Jar than meets the eye. Unfortunately, he was intended as the same comedic relief that R2-D2 and C-3PO served in A New Hope - but rather than a bickering protocol droid, we get physical humor that failed to translate amidst a sea of scat humor. Part of that failure comes from Lucas wanting to keep a movie about trade negotiations somewhat interesting for little children, but in a lesson that a lot of children oriented properties fail to understand - it can be amusing for both adults and children, and when you focus entirely on the latter, you end up with something entertaining to a very narrow demographic.
posted by Atreides at 1:25 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Rey’s fighting style with the light saber seems to me to be a function of her fighting primarily with a staff. She does that poke/thrust thing when she fights off Unkar Plutt’s thugs and when she knocks Finn down to stop him. Makes sense that she would be awkward with a weapon she didn’t have experience using.

Atreides - Yes to everything you said, especially Kenji conflating anger with exertion. When I think of someone in this series being unreasonably angry, I think of Anakin Skywalker slaughtering an entire Tuskin village, and then the younglings. That is a serious anger management problem.

Oh, and let’s ask Han Solo and Chewie to hang around and keep an eye on her too, just in case she ever manages to find a way to escape. You think it was an accident that Han Solo picked Rey and Finn up so soon after they made it off the planet surface? He knew they were leaving, he was watching her all along.

If Han was watching Rey then wouldn’t he know that the Falcon was on Jakku? Han says “Jakku, that junkyard?” and then says to Chewie “I told you we should’ve searched the outer regions.” Earlier Rey says that the Falcon hadn’t flown in years so it makes sense that Han has no knowledge of the Falcon until Rey flies it off Jakku, making it visible on radar. Han later says that the Falcon showed up on his ship’s tracker and that if he and Chewie can see them, then the First Order can track them too. It was the Falcon Han and Chewie were after, not Rey.

I’ll admit that I am really enjoying reading these fan theories, even if I don’t exactly buy into them. It’s just nice to be excited about Star Wars again, TBH.

This thread may pick up again, once we all have the DVD.

Not so fast! I’m two showings away from an even 20! (3-IMAX, 7-3D, 8-2D)

That SW:TFA torrent is the honey-est honey pot to ever honey. 0_o
posted by dorkydancer at 1:45 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I have decided that Rey is Phasma's kid. No particular basis for this, but we've namedropped every male character but Yoda, so why not. In honesty it would be cool as fuck, Phasma and her protocols didn't strike me as someone who would be self accepting of magical force sensitive bull, instead taking to trooping to keep it all packed away under armour, uncomfortable sins of her past hidden away in the outer rim.... Rey, I am your mother.
posted by Iteki at 3:02 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Gameplay Reveal Trailer
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:26 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens Deleted Scenes Teaser

Not sure there's a enough marketing for this dvd / blu ray... could have had some stills before the teaser for a start
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:10 PM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's killing me, this release. I've had my pre-ordered for a while now, but the press folks have received review copies and are repeatedly sharing photos of them in hand. STOP IT. I have approximately 10 more days to wait, you stinkers, don't make them feel that much longer!
posted by Atreides at 2:51 PM on March 25, 2016

this is neat: Path of a Lightsaber
posted by numaner at 3:19 PM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

It reminds me that I'm expecting Lucas to go back and re-master the prequels, with an added touch of dialogue in that scene:

Obi-Wan: You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!
*picks up lightsaber*
Anakin: Pass that on to my son, would you? I hate you!
Obi-Wan: Will do! You were my brother, Anakin.
posted by nubs at 3:53 PM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

That's true from a certain point of view.
posted by Artw at 4:58 PM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Almost that exact scene was in this week's Robot Chicken, except there was more talk about the high ground.
posted by Mezentian at 10:12 PM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

A "deleted scenes teaser" was a new concept to me. I get the distinct feeling the studio is going to recoup their costs on this movie....
posted by Harald74 at 5:02 AM on March 31, 2016

Me two nights ago: "Totally gonna order Star Wars, maaaayyyyy be kind of a dick and watch it solo after the kids are in bed. They sleep soundly. They'll never know."

My son this morning: "Did you finally escape three elders in Alto's Adventure? I heard you playing on the TV a bunch last night."
posted by middleclasstool at 5:44 AM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

It reminds me that I'm expecting Lucas to go back and re-master the prequels, with an added touch of dialogue in that scene:

The great thing about cashing out to Disney is that Lucas will never get to tinker with any of the movies again. That said, he can tinker with the prequels all he wants because they're not (my) canon.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:08 AM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Home watch with both the kids was very successful. Now we ALL Love this stupid movie.
posted by Artw at 7:53 PM on April 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Watching this via download and Blu-ray: fully tax-deductible. My ~~wife~~ consulting partner is watching it for the first time with me.
posted by infinitewindow at 9:32 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

The past few days have been extremely hard for me. I pre-ordered the blu-ray, which comes with a digital copy, and so I've been forced to watch a slew of reviews and commercials related to the home release now. I feel as if I need to drop my current profession only to find a way to become well known enough as a pop culture commentator for the sole purpose of being offered a review copy of the next Star Wars film entirely so I don't have to live through it again.

Okay, it hasn't been that bad.

I will be showing it to my wife, who never saw it in the theaters, either Wednesday or Friday evening. I'm pretty hyped.
posted by Atreides at 7:18 AM on April 4, 2016

I'll be slipping out tomorrow on my lunch break to snag a copy. Everyone in my house is excited to see it again. Might have to hide it from the kids until Friday, and then we can stage a big pizza & movie night.
posted by nubs at 8:08 AM on April 4, 2016

....so....I just got a shipping update telling me it's arriving this afternoon.

::hyperventilates::
posted by Atreides at 8:42 AM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hey, do we get to welcome new people to the thread?
posted by Artw at 8:43 AM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

If that is their destiny.
posted by nubs at 9:06 AM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

....so....I just got a shipping update telling me it's arriving this afternoon.

Did you order from Amazon? If so:

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:11 AM on April 4, 2016

I usually buy blu-ray, but I broke down on Friday and got it through iTunes. It came with all of the usual featurettes and deleted scenes. We've watched it 3 times since Friday.
posted by Fleebnork at 9:12 AM on April 4, 2016

Did you order from Amazon? If so: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻.

No comment. Sorry.

Hey, do we get to welcome new people to the thread?

The asinine way to do it would be to create a post with anchor tags back to every topic they bring up, but don't realize have already been discussed multiple times because of the ginormous thread above them.

The better way is to offer them water activated green bread and encourage them to engage with the franchise even more.
posted by Atreides at 9:16 AM on April 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I ordered mine from Amazon DIGITAL. Go slice up a chair or whatevs.
posted by Artw at 9:37 AM on April 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I thought the miffed response of choice in this thread was to lightsaber a bunch of control panels?
posted by carsonb at 12:01 PM on April 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

And the troops are all "nope" and going the other way...
posted by Artw at 12:37 PM on April 4, 2016

Did anyone else think Ren's helmet made him look like an old-school Cylon centurion? Also, is it just me or does Adam Driver have an oddly asymmetrical face?
posted by orrnyereg at 5:27 PM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Closer to the reboot Cylon Warriors, with the narrow jaw.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:35 PM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Reminds me a little of old school Space Marine power armour helmets.
posted by Artw at 5:44 PM on April 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Finally, we're to the part of the the thread where we talk about Kylo Ren's helmet!

Did you notice how heavy it is? There are a couple of scenes where he sets it down and there's a loud *thunk*. Being Kylo Ren literally weighs on him.
posted by chrchr at 6:04 PM on April 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Reminds me a little of old school Space Marine power armour helmets.

There is a resemblance to a Mark IV Maximus now that you mention it.
posted by radwolf76 at 9:25 PM on April 4, 2016

Watching it again last night (sorry entropicamericana) to refresh my memory, I'm still focused on it as reflective of old Teutonic knight style helmets. I never really thought about its heft, but it definitely hits the ground with a clunk on the catwalk.

That scene and the treatment of the helmet also strengthens my own belief that up until the fading of the light, Ren was strongly considering giving up and returning with Han. The only other time he removes his helmet, he almost reverently places it on a bed of ash (or something). Here, he just drops it. I mean, dude, it could have rolled over the side of your walkway there and you would have lost it, like you soon lost your dad...

Home Watch Report

Wow! I have a 9 year old 720p 42" plasma with a vertical line of dead pixels and no sound system and I still really enjoyed seeing it at home. For the most part, everything felt wonderfully vibrant and clear. There were a couple odd times where the background seemed slightly faded for a reason I can't fathom, nor can I recall if it was that way in the theater and I simply didn't notice it. Another strange thing was that the film felt as if it went faster. I did miss the giant movie screen presentation, as there were some scenes where I couldn't appreciate the detail quite as much as I wanted. Still, had a ball of a time and watched through about a third to half of the special features already.
posted by Atreides at 7:46 AM on April 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Watching it again last night (sorry entropicamericana)

*slices his work pc into pieces and stomps off down the hall*
posted by entropicamericana at 8:01 AM on April 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

a bed of ash (or something)

About that
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:48 AM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

That seems like a way less elegant answer than the ashes being Vader's, too.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:16 AM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just picked up my copy. Now debating if I can make a case for working from home this afternoon.
posted by nubs at 10:38 AM on April 5, 2016

I really, really hope he doesn't get a redemption arc. Malevolent, swivel-eyed loons are so much more interesting.
posted by orrnyereg at 10:48 AM on April 5, 2016

If the Rey is a Palpatine theory holds, I would expect he wouldn't - the arc then would be Rey's discovery of who she is, and rejection of that heritage, while Kylo goes deeper into his rejection of his heritage and descends. If they go with Rey is a Skywalker, then I think they should still go that way - one Skywalker selecting the Light, the other the Dark, circling around each other.
posted by nubs at 10:53 AM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Force Awakens is so much about flipping the Original Trilogy on its head at times, taking the direction it went originally, then reversing it. I thought about this as I watched last night (and yes, nubs, you surely have an excuse, a very legitimate excuse, absolutely) and Kylo Ren is coming across quite a bit as a Reverse Vader (as we know him in the Original Trilogy). The whole element of redemption in Vader is that when it came down to it, he couldn't kill his son or allow someone else to do it, either. That was the spark of goodness which saved him from the eternal condemnation of the Dark Side.

Kylo Ren, however, extinguishes any hope of goodness by killing his father. In fact, while Vader had two duels with Luke, building up to the moment when he could not allow Luke to die (arguably he was beaten by Luke and the choice of personally killing him was removed from the equation), it was at the pinnacle of violent confrontation that Vader made his choice. Ren never violently confronted his father, he never fought him (so far as we know), but instead, ended up killing him when he seemed to be showing every sign of coming peacefully. REVERSE VADER.

What does that mean? I think it means that there will be no redemption for Kylo Ren because he's already scratched it off the list when he offed Han Solo. The Original Trilogy was in part about Vader's subsequent journey from villain to redemption. This Sequel Trilogy will become in part about Kylo Ren's journey from possible redemption to complete villainy.

The whole setup is kind of awkward in that Anakin Skywalker's story essentially runs through six movies, and because of that, I definitely wonder if the Sequel Trilogy will ultimately also complete the telling of Luke Skywalker through six movies, as well. Luke ran away, in part because he couldn't confront and stop his nephew. Like before, he will have to confront his nemesis to fulfill his destiny, but it's Kylo Ren, not Snoke. Snoke, I'm speculating, will ultimately be the evil that Rey must defeat. So how does that apply to Rey?

Usually our major confrontations in Star Wars have some kind of personal stake to them, friendship or blood relation. If the theory of Rey as Palpatine (not one I personally believe in) and Snoke is Darth Plagueis, there is a relationship there. Otherwise, I'm at a loss without more information on how to draw Rey to Snoke outside of being a Skywalker who has to avenge the corruption of a cousin. Without that connection, it throws everything out and Luke as the powerful representative of the Light Side must confront Snoke, the powerful representative of the Dark Side (i.e., like Yoda vs Palpatine), leaving Rey to try and save her family member (saying she's a Skywalker).

The deeper question is how fleshed out is the story Abrams and Kasdan created? Are Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow essentially filling in the blank spaces that represent the plotting of A to B to C? Hrm.
posted by Atreides at 11:27 AM on April 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think it means that there will be no redemption for Kylo Ren because he's already scratched it off the list when he offed Han Solo. The Original Trilogy was in part about Vader's subsequent journey from villain to redemption. This Sequel Trilogy will become in part about Kylo Ren's journey from possible redemption to complete villainy.

That has been my feeling as well; killing Han was a moral event horizon for Kylo and he is now lost (this is similar to how I feel about Anakin killing the younglings and it makes his subsequent redemption for not killing Luke really awkward).

Anyways, just watching the Kylo/Han scene. Lighting choices are interesting. Han steps into the light to call to Ben; Kylo has been walking between light and dark patches on the catwalk. When he stops, he is about halfway between patches. Rey and Finn enter and cast light on the whole; but Kylo is still towards the end of that ray of light, almost in the shadows. As Han approaches - the light at his back - Ren steps back, half into shadow again. They talk; Ren drops his mask to the floor. I think that's really key - he drops the mask; he isn't hiding or masking his identity. This is who he is; this is the identity he chooses.

Lightsaber comes out, they play tug of war; the sunlight disappears. Han dies; everything pauses; shooting begins. Ren looks up at Rey and Finn and starts to walk...he leaves the mask behind as the room explodes. He doesn't wear it again. There was a big choice made there; I think that is part of why Snoke decides it is time to complete his training; Ren has committed to the Dark Side in the moment on the catwalk, as shown by his words, deeds, and leaving his mask behind.

I'm intrigued to see if he has a mask in the next film.

Luke as the powerful representative of the Light Side must confront Snoke, the powerful representative of the Dark Side (i.e., like Yoda vs Palpatine), leaving Rey to try and save her family member (saying she's a Skywalker).

Yeah, I'm trying to envision Rey's arc from here. I can see a final duel between Luke/Snoke and Rey/Ren in parallel, similar to what happened at the end of RotS; but unless we learn a lot about Snoke and/or Luke here that gives that fight a personal gravity, the focus will be on Rey/Ren. Anyways, what is interesting to me here is that the Rey/Ren fight of TFA has a parallel to the fight between Luke/Vader in Empire; but in this one it is Rey who is victorious. What does that do for her arc going forward? If Luke had beaten Vader in Empire, and Vader only escapes via outside interference, what is Luke like in Jedi?
posted by nubs at 12:57 PM on April 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm intrigued to see if he has a mask in the next film.

Man, that is gonna be a hard sell to the suits. Kylo Ren's mask is an icon used throughout the film's marketing and all the merch tie-ins.
posted by chrchr at 2:17 PM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I agree; it was just really noticeable to me this time through that Ren takes the mask off, sets it down, and leaves it behind. Is Kylo Ren, the evil that wears Adam Driver's face not marketable? Or perhaps Rey related stuff will be the market focus next time?
posted by nubs at 2:24 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Rewatching right now and feel obliged to point out that this movie has the second-best opening shot in the whole series.
posted by wabbittwax at 2:58 PM on April 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm sure Ren will have a new, slightly different mask. Then everyone has to get the updated merch.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:03 PM on April 5, 2016

The deeper question is how fleshed out is the story Abrams and Kasdan created? Are Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow essentially filling in the blank spaces that represent the plotting of A to B to C? Hrm.

This is something I’ve been wondering about too. Are there really any blank spaces now? How much input into the storyline will Johnson and Trevorrow have? Has the Lucasfilm Story Group mapped the rest of the trilogy out completely? It seems like they have the final say on everything, but there have been reports that Johnson has rewritten the Episode VIII script based on audience response to TFA, so…¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And now for something completely different: Go to lightspeed. Peace.
posted by dorkydancer at 10:53 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

(I'm watching Star Wars right now while I am doing data analysis!!!!)
posted by ChuraChura at 7:06 AM on April 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

My romance comrade has watched this about 8 times at home since we acquired it on the 2nd.

So my anecdata supports the hypothesis that this movie is worth watching at home too.
posted by LegallyBread at 12:57 PM on April 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

According to youngest kid's schoolmate Kylo Ren is for certain Rey's dad, so that's sorted out.
posted by Artw at 1:07 PM on April 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Rogue One trailer drops tomorrow morning.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
posted by entropicamericana at 5:44 PM on April 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Stay on target!
posted by Artw at 6:34 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Almost there...
posted by nubs at 6:39 PM on April 6, 2016

Quick question: what's up with that Kylo Ren? The guy is an asshole.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:23 AM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

A preview for a teaser? One whole second of footage? Sigh...
posted by Harald74 at 3:42 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Rogue One trailer. Do we need a thread just for the trailer alone?
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:02 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

A thread for the trailer
posted by crossoverman at 5:15 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

THREAD: God's work.
Plus, I need a pick-me-up after Arrow.

Also, I'd have not seen this until lunch tomorrow my time.
posted by Mezentian at 5:28 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, hey, it's released here next Wednesday.
I know what I am doing Wednesday Night.
posted by Mezentian at 6:15 AM on April 8, 2016

In what poor deprived world are you living in that you have to wait until next Wednesday?
posted by Atreides at 7:09 AM on April 8, 2016

Australia.
posted by Mezentian at 7:40 AM on April 8, 2016

You're in the future, this is preposterous, you should have had it last Wednesday. Why does Disney hate Australia?!
posted by Atreides at 9:01 AM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gah! I probably could've bought you a copy here and shipped it and you'd still have it before Wednesday.

Of course, costs of said shipping might be high, but you could've been one of the first people in Auz to have the DVD.
posted by nubs at 10:00 AM on April 8, 2016

Finally re-watched last night thanks to my neighbor's Plex library and still liked a lot about it but still felt a little blah about the third act. The raid on the base seems so perfunctory and rushed and I wish that they'd come up with something else than just a bigger death star.
posted by octothorpe at 5:33 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gah! I probably could've bought you a copy here and shipped it and you'd still have it before Wednesday.

You assume I have a region-unlocked DVD player.
I do, of course.... but I can wait.
Plus, I am more excited by another film.

Why does Disney hate Australia?!

Tax?

The raid on the base seems so perfunctory and rushed and I wish that they'd come up with something else than just a bigger death star.

Rogue One has a smaller Death Star!
posted by Mezentian at 7:32 AM on April 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

A death star under construction... Haven't seen that before.
posted by drezdn at 7:51 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, we know it's not going to blow up at the end this time.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:08 AM on April 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Having a secret original Death Star that also blows up would be funny as hell though.
posted by Artw at 9:17 AM on April 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Was thinking about Episode VIII: The Irresistible Force, today and speculating on what I'd really like to see. I think it'd be really great if Snoke and Kylo Ren were off alone on some remote world that is the evil opposite of Skellig Michael. Then much of the movie could consist of intercutting between Rey's and Kylo's parallel training narratives, while the other characters go running around on some damn fool idealistic crusade. This is my design.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:51 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Would it be possible to try to get this thread to stay away from any information revealed about upcoming Star Wars films and stay focused on The Force Awakens? Or should I just take it out of recent activity?
posted by ODiV at 10:19 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm sure Ren will have a new, slightly different mask.

Watched this again last night with the nubspawn - they were thrilled to discover I had bought it - and since I wasn't trying to sneak peeks at it while at work in a small window on my monitor, noted something that I hadn't when I saw it in the theatre. Rey's final blow on Ren drags the tip of her lightsaber through Ren's face. Not sure if that means anything about his mask or not for the next film, but I expect we will have a disfigured Ren.
posted by nubs at 2:22 PM on April 9, 2016

Snoke is disfigured. Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow both directed time-travel movies. J.J. Abrams is involved. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS? SNOKE IS FUTURE-REN. IT'S TIME TO COMPLETE HIS TRAINING.
posted by cgc373 at 2:51 PM on April 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

The first time a time-traveler appeared in his office, Rian Johnson was preparing to direct the next Star Wars film...
posted by wabbittwax at 3:01 PM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Had my first at-home re-watch last night and a few things I noticed:

Rey's arc of discovering her Force capabilities is well defined, and indeed Kylo Ren is her teacher. Each time he uses the Force in her presence she takes note of it in awe, and when he attempts to reach into her mind the first time is when she realizes she can do it too. When they lock lightsabers on the cliff's edge is another key moment: Kylo Ren offers to be her teacher and says she needs to be trained. She may very well agree with him that she has much to learn, but she realizes that she has already been learning from him, and to me it looks like she also realizes that if she's going to have access to the dark side of the force she might as well use it (against Ren) too. That's when she really starts to kick his ass, and it's also a very dangerous moment for Rey. It's not at all clear how far she would have gone in the fight if the ground hadn't opened up and separated the two.

Thing two is that Rey offering Luke the lightsaber echoes the moment between Ben and Han Solo.
posted by carsonb at 5:21 PM on April 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

In the novelization it's made quite explicit that she is accessing the dark side in the final part of her duel with Kylo Ren. The relevant passage:

Slowly she shook her head. “The Force?” That was what this was about? Instead of moving to defend herself, Rey closed her eyes. Ren hesitated, confused by her actions. A long moment passed, in which Ren sensed a change in the air, a change in her. Then she opened her eyes and attacked, viciously, in a way she didn’t know she was capable of, striking again and again as Ren was slowly driven back. The flaring energy from the interacting lightsabers was more pronounced than ever in the flurry of her attack. And—Ren went down. He was up again in an instant, but not in time to fully deflect a following blow from Rey’s weapon. He succeeded in blocking it, but he still took the full force of the strike against the haft of his own lightsaber. The weapon went flying into the snow. Unarmed, he raised a hand and utilized the Force to fend off one slashing blow after another, until finally her fury penetrated his remaining defenses. Taking a glancing blow to the head and chest, he went down, a prominent burn slashed across his face. Weakened, he reached out toward his lightsaber, trying to draw it to him. One downward cut, she saw. One quick, final strike, and she could kill him. The landing lights of a shuttle appeared in the distance, coming over the trees in her direction. She had to make a decision, now. Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick. She recoiled from it. From the dark side.

posted by wabbittwax at 6:42 PM on April 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Tor: What We Learn From the Special Features on the Star Wars: The Force Awakens Blu-Ray Release
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:47 PM on April 9, 2016

The special features are enjoyable to watch, though lamentably brief at times. All together, you can probably watch them within about two hours, and that includes the just over hour long documentary on the making of.

What they didn't mention in that article was that Han Solo was wearing tennis shoes when running onto the Falcon. That was awesome.
posted by Atreides at 3:57 PM on April 10, 2016

I feel compelled to ask the question: what kind of shoes was the computer wearing?

(In an alternative universe, that joke is much, much funnier).
posted by Mezentian at 3:22 AM on April 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

So in my house on the weekends, we let the kids watch some TV or goof around on the iPad in the morning before mom & dad get up to start the day. And my ten year old took advantage of the fact that we needed a bit of a longer lie-in than usual to watch TFA again. I came in right at the point where Chewie and Finn and Rey are letting loose after Han's death, and my son looks at me and says "I think that stormtrooper armour is really just for show, Dad. It never stops anything, does it?"

And I laughed, and I said "You have just taken your first step into a larger world."
posted by nubs at 8:15 AM on April 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Speaking of the dark side... naturally, TFA syncs up with Dark Side of the Moon.

The link includes video of the first 8 minutes, which do kind of indicate that the stoners might be onto something, here.
posted by sparklemotion at 6:56 PM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I never did make it back to see this in the theater, so I only just watched it for the second time the other night. Still a lot of fun! This time around Han felt like a much more tragic figure per Atreides' observation; 30 years after the rebellion and he's gone back to smuggling, and judging by the showdown on the freighter with two different gangs, he's still pulling the same kind of stuff that got him in trouble with Jabba the Hutt back in the day.

Kylo Ren and General Hux's relative ages as on-the-ground leaders of the First Order stood out a bit more this time too - pretty young (and incompetent, the way things play out) to be in such important roles, aren't they? (I guess all of the young officers of the Empire at the time of RoTJ were either killed or allowed to retire to their spacefarms?)

And I think it was mentioned at least once in this thread already, but it seems like maybe they hint that Kylo knows something about Rey? Just before his first lightsaber tantrum, when he gets the report that Finn and the BB-8 escaped Jakku with the help of a girl, he says "What girl?" sort of significantly. Which I guess could mean he knows something... but he's kind of a punk so it seems equally likely that he's just being a "you let a girl help them escape?" dudebro.

Agreed that the assault on Starkiller Base was kind of weak/perfunctory as executed. (Also, the resistance pilot helmets still look goofy to me when shot head-on; the blast shields are awkward and sort of bulbous looking.)

But really, those are obsessive adult internet nerd nitpicks... if I try to look at it the same way 10 year old, no-internet me saw the original trilogy, it's pretty awesome!
posted by usonian at 9:49 AM on April 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Daisy Ridley knows whose (sic) Rey's parents are, doesn't think it's important

...Ridley found out who Rey's parents were "when [they] were filming VII," and she doesn't think it's very important.

"I think the amazing thing about VII is that Finn and Rey don't come from anywhere, and they find a place. So to me, it's funny that people think it's so important because I don't really think it is," Ridley said of her parentage.

I'm assuming Ridley is speaking of Rey's parentage, and not her own. Gah. Horrid writing.
posted by nubs at 10:43 AM on April 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I feel as if Ridley is misdirecting us on this answer, perhaps out of a little frustration with Jyn Erso, and perhaps to help keep quiet something revealed in the movie she's now filming. Otherwise, if we only have one Skywalker kid in the new trilogy, that's going to blow some heads off shoulders.
posted by Atreides at 11:24 AM on April 12, 2016

Which, you know, wouldn't be a bad thing. But yeah, I feel some misdirection going on, especially with JJ involved.
posted by nubs at 11:29 AM on April 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have to assume he's learned his lesson about straight up lying to people after the blowback from his "Cumberbatch is definitely not Khan, no way" nonsense. Vague non-denials are definitely more palatable to me, even though I think his obsession with secrecy is a bit daft to begin with.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:34 PM on April 12, 2016

I never got the sense that Han had a great reputation in the criminal underworld, you know? Like, he's far from stupid, but he's made about five good decisions in his life, and I felt like the gangs saw him as pathetic if not comic. Someone who thinks he's the King of Bullshit, but makes more enemies every time he opens his mouth. (I also think they're wrong -- like, I don't think Han is that self-deluded -- but you could really hear it in their voices that they saw him as their last vain old rando they had to stomp on before lunch, and they were really looking forward to lunch.)

Han's death scene is really the first time he's not doing schtick in the whole series. That really struck me this time, how simply and sincerely he speaks. And the bridge echoes not only Obi-Wan's death and Luke's repudiation of his father, but also the "I love you"/"I know" scene.
posted by thesmallmachine at 7:01 PM on April 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

No. Han is the cynical, paranoid, arrogant loudmouth who actually delivers, so long as what you want from him is only illegal in a way he likes. The kinda guy who'd walk away from being jumped by a biker gang, blowing on his knuckles and and asking if they had any friends they'd want to invite for next time. Jabba's kinda heat is too heavy, tho, yet it's only when Boba Fett and Darth Vader team up when he's taken down.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:51 PM on April 12, 2016

Rey's parents not being important only adds to the 'Rey is a random former Jedi trainee youngling who escaped the massacre somehow, possibly with Kylo Ren's assistance in his last good act before going Full Vader' theory, which is much better than 'Luke's her dad' imo (though it could always be both, I suppose)
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:27 AM on April 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

How C3-P0 got that red arm
posted by nubs at 11:54 AM on April 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was briefly tempted to click that link, but I kind of prefer not knowing. In fact, I hope it becomes a running joke where 3PO keeps trying to explain what happened to his arm but other characters always interrupt before he can get started with his story.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:12 PM on April 13, 2016

It is actually kind of an interesting story, if for no other reason than the fact that it digs in a bit on the questions raised about droids in the Star Wars universe and how they are treated.
posted by nubs at 1:38 PM on April 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

That comic does sound pretty interesting, actually.

But now I'm annoyed that 3PO's arm goes back to gold at the end of TFA.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:24 AM on April 14, 2016

After waiting months (it was originally slated for the same week as The Force Awakens), which included at least two delays, I read this last night (after being too sick to make it to the comic book store on Wednesday - go figure). It was a little bit of a let down, but I agree, it makes the decision to replace his arm in the final two minutes of the movie kind of ridiculous. As I recall, it was always intended by Abrams to represent that C-3PO had been through things since we last saw him, and in my mind, especially based off the comic, it represented character growth.

The real irony is, BB-8 already knew he had the red arm before the movie, so that little ball droid was just hounding him again about it. So BB-8 is kind of a jerk for pressuring C-3PO to ditch it. RESPECT A DROID'S WISHES, ORANGE ASTROMECH.
posted by Atreides at 7:32 AM on April 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

What if BB-8 mind-wiped 3PO and switched his arm back, so now 3PO doesn't remember anything about Omri? :(
posted by tobascodagama at 8:22 AM on April 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

Please like and subscribe to my new YouTube series BB-8 is a Secret Sith Lord.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:45 AM on April 15, 2016 [5 favorites]

Nah, I'm not saying BB-8 is evil. Just that he's ruthless and petty.

Oh, wait, it's Star Wars, so I guess technically those are all the same thing anyway.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:31 AM on April 15, 2016

What if C3P0 getting his arm back is why R2D2 wakes up?
posted by nubs at 10:33 AM on April 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Nope.

We just have to accept that BB-8 likes to shame droids about their appearances. It's obviously arm and leg envy.
posted by Atreides at 11:44 AM on April 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Damn you BB-8! He's the same with R2 earlier in the film, pulling his cover off and beeping at him and trying to wake him. He's a nasty piece of disabled droid-shaming work.
posted by nubs at 12:02 PM on April 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

For those interested, here's my review/recap of the C-3PO comic. In my opinion, it's weirdly clashes with how the movie handled the red arm, kind of reinforcing what the story in the comic was trying to rail against.
posted by Atreides at 2:00 PM on April 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Abrams: Rey's parents did not appear in The Force Awakens
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:14 PM on April 15, 2016

Said the most untrustworthy director in Hollywood when it comes to reveals.
posted by Atreides at 6:54 PM on April 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

Rey is a Force baby, like Anakin before her! She just materialized on that shuttle!
posted by nubs at 7:17 PM on April 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

One of today's record store day releases: 10" Picture disc version of "March of the Resistance" backed with "Rey's Theme" from Star Wars: The Force Awakens

I saw lots of copies when I was out this morning, so it's gettable if anyone wants it.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:44 PM on April 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

JJ has, er, "clarified" his statement:
Update: After this story made news, J.J. Abrams clarified his comments to Entertainment Weekly. “What I meant was that she doesn’t discover them in Episode VII. Not that they may not already be in her world,” the director said.

(It's at DirtyOldTown's io9 link).
posted by Mezentian at 5:06 PM on April 16, 2016

-_- <-----Surprise Face.
posted by Atreides at 7:40 AM on April 17, 2016

Rey is the love child of Phasma and Hux!
posted by nubs at 9:23 AM on April 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's going to be Khan.
posted by drezdn at 3:54 PM on April 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Good news everyone! The Daily News has set photos from the sequel.

That set for Skellig Michael looks amazing.

Oh, and Toys R Us has a few TFA-related shorts, which are pretty neat.
posted by Mezentian at 6:32 PM on April 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

OK. Year of Metafilter have burned into my brain that TFA is the acronym for The Fucking Article. Adds a thrill to Star Wars discussions.
posted by Grangousier at 6:09 AM on May 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Good news everyone! The Daily News has set photos from the sequel.

Looks like VIII might follow an arboreal theme.
posted by popcassady at 10:36 AM on May 4, 2016

8>o<8>
|-o-|

*

Happy May 4th my fellow Star Wars fans!
posted by Atreides at 11:29 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Rey is a Force baby, like Anakin before her! She just materialized on that shuttle!

Her parents didn't leave her so they could fight in the Rebellion or whatnot, they just had a perfectly normal freakout in response to HOLY SHIT, BABY OUT OF NOWHERE!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:34 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

FWIW, Google Play has this available for rental, if anybody is inclined to go see a Star War today but doesn't own it.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:33 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

News everyone, Young Han Solo has been cast!
posted by Mezentian at 6:35 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

A spike in Hail Caesar downloards/rentals has begun.
posted by Atreides at 7:00 AM on May 6, 2016

It's complicated.
posted by Artw at 7:05 AM on May 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

While I enjoyed him in Hail Caesar, I still have a very bad feeling about this.

Saw the Rogue One trailer for the big screen for the first time last night with Civil War. Can't. Wait.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:15 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I still have a very bad feeling about this.

Yeah, I'm not super enthused about the idea of a Young Solo movie.

But the nice thing about the approach Disney is taking with Star Wars as opposed to, say, the Avengers is that I can totally sit out any of the side story movies that don't look that great and not be missing out on key parts of the narrative.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:55 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Saw the Rogue One trailer for the big screen for the first time last night with Civil War. Can't. Wait.

Damn you!

But the nice thing about the approach Disney is taking with Star Wars as opposed to, say, the Avengers is that I can totally sit out any of the side story movies that don't look that great and not be missing out on key parts of the narrative.

That.... is fair.
posted by Mezentian at 8:04 AM on May 6, 2016

Huh, I just noticed that if you play the TFA soundtrack in Spotify, the progress bar changes to a light sabre...
posted by Harald74 at 5:30 AM on May 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am watching the extras from the DVD, and the Force For Change segment legitimately made me stand up and clap for joy, and I am a cynical bastard (Did I cry in Iron Giant? No) but on hearing that Malala Yousafzai was involved was amazing.

I am really enjoying the extras, and someday I may even watch the film again.
posted by Mezentian at 6:51 AM on May 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Short Five: Attack of the Conscience
Phasma and Finn pal around.
posted by Mezentian at 6:17 AM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

While I enjoyed him in Hail Caesar, I still have a very bad feeling about this.

I have said that last part about just about every project Phil Lord and Christopher Miller have taken on post-Clone High and they have yet to seriously go wrong (usually very, very much the opposite). Maybe this will be when they finally fall on their faces, but after somehow making Lego Movie amazing despite that seeming like a terrible idea... I'm hoping they can pull off another win.
posted by sparkletone at 12:02 PM on May 10, 2016

So Snoke is not Plagueis

...at least according to a somewhat reliable source.
posted by bonehead at 6:59 AM on May 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

That was a possibility? I'm pretty sure nothing from the prequels or the EU (or the new EU) will have any significance in the new movies.
posted by Artw at 7:07 AM on May 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think the fandom that brought us "Darth Jar-Jar" can be expected to let that stop them.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:14 AM on May 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm pretty sure nothing from the prequels or the EU (or the new EU) will have any significance in the new movies.

I hope you're right, so I can savor the anger of the prequel-lovin' millennials^[1] on /r/starwars like Palps creepin' on Luke in ROTJ.

[1.] No, it's true, there are actually prequel fans out there. (I KNOW, RIGHT?!)
posted by entropicamericana at 8:46 AM on May 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I LIKE the prequels (in a way that like is accurate), hater.
posted by Mezentian at 3:58 AM on May 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm pretty sure nothing from the prequels or the EU (or the new EU) will have any significance in the new movies.

I was pretty sure they were going to start fresh too but the Ben/Jacn Solo mishmash that is Kylo Ren happened. So it's not totally impossible they could mine the EU for more backstory.
posted by bonehead at 6:49 AM on May 13, 2016

That's almost more of a sign they are ignoring the EU than diligently ignoring any ground the EU has previously touched would be, TBH.
posted by Artw at 6:53 AM on May 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

I LIKE the prequels (in a way that like is accurate), hater.

brb executing order 66
posted by entropicamericana at 7:12 AM on May 14, 2016

I think the toe-in material will continue to be the space for intense nerdery where every single thing must tie together and everything must connect to every other thing, if that is your whole deal, but the movies are mostly going to keep it simple - also will probably bulldoze anything set up in the tie-ins or prequels with impunity.

Slavish devotion to continuity inevitably becomes a set of leg irons. I get why it's important to the hardcore fans that the EU stuff is included, but appeasing everyone can choke the life out of your work. Same with Marvel fans wanting the movieverse to include the TVverse.

Not to mention that a continuity that includes a bad guy actually named Savage Opress needs rework.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:26 AM on May 14, 2016

There's a huge billboard in SF with an ad begging Disney to re-canonize the EU.
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:00 AM on May 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

Little off-topic from the current discussion, but I was thinking the other day that it'd be a nice twist if Captain Phasma became a love interest for Finn, like after betraying the first order or something.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:07 AM on May 14, 2016

There's a huge billboard in SF with an ad begging Disney to re-canonize the EU.

Find out who paid for it and raise their taxes to 1950s-era levels, because they have too much goddamned money.
posted by entropicamericana at 12:07 PM on May 14, 2016 [12 favorites]

Slavish devotion to continuity inevitably becomes a set of leg irons. I get why it's important to the hardcore fans that the EU stuff is included, but appeasing everyone can choke the life out of your work. Same with Marvel fans wanting the movieverse to include the TVverse.

This line of thinking has been kind of popular among the story group folks on Twitter as of late. As one of those more hardcore-ish fans, I want to keep track of every bit of knowledge and what not introduced, but I also recognized, in the long run, it's not a big deal.
posted by Atreides at 12:36 PM on May 22, 2016

So, I've watched TFA probably 4 or 5 times now since the home video release, which is way more than I typically watch anything in a given year, much less in the span of a couple of months! But it apparently pushes all of my "audiovisual comfort food" buttons even though the last act (kickass lightsaber duel in the dark snowy woods notwithstanding) feels a little more clumsy/perfunctory with each viewing.

The biggest emotional payoff of the whole film, at least to an aging gen-xer like me who has John Williams' score from the first movie hard-wired into their brain's nostalgia center, is the moment when Rey grabs Luke's lightsaber out of the snow as Williams' "The Force Theme" rises.

Also: Is it just me or was the various pilot chatter purposely written to sound like the sort of dialog 10 year old kids might come up with when playing Star Wars in the back yard? It's cheesy but somehow endearing.
posted by usonian at 6:38 AM on May 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

The biggest emotional payoff of the whole film, at least to an aging gen-xer like me who has John Williams' score from the first movie hard-wired into their brain's nostalgia center, is the moment when Rey grabs Luke's lightsaber out of the snow as Williams' "The Force Theme" rises.

Just watched it yet again with my son, and this was exactly the moment for me too.

The use of musical themes has always been a strength of the series, and it works, because they were consistent across the entire series. (Did the Dark Knight do this, for example, and I just missed it? Do the Avengers have themes?) When Maz's temple/bar complex is being ripped apart by stormtroopers, you don't even need to look at the screen to know that Kylo Ren is arriving on the scene - the music tells you right as his ship enters.

So when the Force theme rises - yeah.

As an aside to other parents who are watching with their kids - are you pretending that the prequels never existed? We went IV-V-VI and then VII in the theater; am I depriving them if I pretend I, II, III never happened?
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:42 AM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

As an aside to other parents who are watching with their kids - are you pretending that the prequels never existed? We went IV-V-VI and then VII in the theater; am I depriving them if I pretend I, II, III never happened?

Machete order is pretty good -- IV-V-II-III-VI(-VII).
posted by Etrigan at 11:51 AM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

are you pretending that the prequels never existed?

what prequels
posted by entropicamericana at 11:59 AM on May 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

I did Machete Order with my daughter in the run up to VII, and it is great! There is almost no Jar-Jar, and everything holds together fine. The only problem is Episode II starts pretty much in media res, with Amidala's lookalike getting assassinated, so that required a quick pause and explanation of who she was and what was going on. She was a little bummed when she found out I cheated her out of Baby Anakin.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:03 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Just chiming in that, yeah, that lightsaber music cue was one of the biggest, "OMG, MY HEART IS ESCAPING MY CHEST OUT OF JOY!" moments of the film.
posted by Atreides at 12:51 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

are you pretending that the prequels never existed?

Well I mean I'm trying not to think too much about it, sure, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to wait until December. That trailer was awesome.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:56 PM on May 25, 2016

The Prequels, though, have given birth to some really good materials elsewhere. It gets complicated if you want someone to watch The Clone Wars (either version) and not touch upon at least AOTC.
posted by Atreides at 2:47 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

The kiddos watched Clone Wars long before AOTC and were fine with it. >
posted by Artw at 3:17 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

I haven't shown my son the prequels, but he's 4, so still in the whooshy spaceships and not so much with the story. If I can find a good fanedit I might consider viewing that.
posted by Fleebnork at 3:17 PM on May 25, 2016

The biggest emotional payoff of the whole film, at least to an aging gen-xer like me who has John Williams' score from the first movie hard-wired into their brain's nostalgia center, is the moment when Rey grabs Luke's lightsaber out of the snow as Williams' "The Force Theme" rises.

I'm not a huge SW fan, and I first saw TFA on Saturday morning opening weekend, 36+ hours after all the die-hard fans had seen it at least once. I wanted to jump up and cheer when that happened, and I am not normally the jump-up-and-cheer type at movies. But no one else in the 2/3-full theater did, so I remained quiet too. I like to imagine that a loud roar went up from the opening-night audiences at that moment. I'm now tempted to see Episode VIII opening night just for the emotional experience of seeing it with the hardcore fans.

The use of musical themes has always been a strength of the series, and it works, because they were consistent across the entire series. (Did the Dark Knight do this, for example, and I just missed it? Do the Avengers have themes?)

I don't think there's a lot of movies that do this, and very few with the depth and variation that the SW series does. Possibly the only other movie series that uses leitmotifs with such depth in its soundtrack is the Lord of the Rings series — here's a website that rather thoroughly catalogs the themes in LOTR.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:58 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

We are also moving toward a future where the musical consistency of the Star Wars franchise may ultimately be drawing down, dependent on how Disney and Lucasfilm will want to proceed as more of their major cinematic productions are not scored by John Williams. Kevin Kiner is an interesting example of what the future of Star Wars scores might be like, as he's scored more hours of the franchise than anyone else through his work on The Clone Wars and Rebels.

In those shows, he has touched upon some of those themes we are very used to, but has been entirely comfortable going elsewhere for inspiration. The best example of this recently was in the Rebels' episode, "The Legends of the Lasat" where he admitted drew upon a Phillip Glass-esque style to score a very beautifully animated scene. Could one of the iconic themes from the Trilogy had been used or something playing off of it? Definitely, but Kline went somewhere else. In fact, for the most part, he's very restrained when it comes to tapping that god spring of emotion that are Williams' scores.

More interestingly will be Rogue One, which comes out this December. and will be the first major Star Wars cinematic film not scored by Williams. Instead, it's Alexandre Desplat. How Desplat works with the existing musical canon and where he spins away will be interesting. The obvious points would be themes for specific characters, characters who did not exist yet, and then those characters or entities which have existed. Will we get the Imperial March? Will we get the music we're accustomed to hearing when X-Wings or the Rebel Alliance is in battle?

However it goes, it's an interesting time for Star Wars scoring,
posted by Atreides at 7:59 AM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Desplat lives his motifs - see his work with Wes Anderson.
posted by Artw at 8:09 AM on May 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

I haven't been obsessing too much over Rogue One yet, so I hadn't heard that Desplat was doing the score - I think that's fantastic news! His score for The Grand Budapest Hotel is every bit as important to that film as Williams' score was to the original Star Wars; his motifs inextricably linked themselves to the visuals the first time I watched it; there's no childhood nostalgia factor at play there. I bought the Grand Budapest soundtrack immediately after watching it for the second time. It will be really interesting to see what he comes up with for Rogue One (and how much if at all Williams' work is woven into it.)
posted by usonian at 1:56 PM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Awkward confession time - I have not seen the entire movie before tonight. I had to haul a bawling kindergartner out of the theater when Solo got stabbed.

Note that I did not say when he got killed.

This movie is all about echoes from the past come to haunt the future. The last time someone was chucked off a space-station catwalk to die, wounded horribly by a lightsaber, in this movie series...

Did he survive?

Yes. Ergo..

Han Lives!
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:22 PM on May 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

The last time someone was chucked off a space-station catwalk to die

Wait, wasn't Palpatine the last person chucked off a catwalk to die?
posted by dersins at 9:39 AM on May 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

And Luke jumped.
posted by nubs at 9:47 AM on May 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

And anyway why did it take me until now to realize that Kylo Ren = Rey Klōn
posted by dersins at 10:11 AM on May 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wait, wasn't Palpatine the last person chucked off a catwalk to die?
I'm fairly sure it happens in the cut-throat world of high fashion on a regular basis. The ground around the fawning celeb audience is littered with the corpses of models who didn't quite make it.
posted by Grangousier at 12:44 AM on May 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Darth Maul was cut fully in half and then fell down a shaft towards a melting pit (I don't know what a melting pit is, but it sounds bad) and he survived. So a clean stab and then a catwalk is, by comparison fairly straightforward to deal with.

I'm sure Han will be back, with spider legs as the new big bad. And probably go back in time to become Snoke.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:26 AM on May 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I do like any opportunity to give someone spider legs, it has to be said.
posted by Artw at 1:05 PM on May 31, 2016

#drarlisslovelessdidnothingwrong
posted by tobascodagama at 1:36 PM on May 31, 2016

Alarm klaxxon
posted by nubs at 5:22 PM on May 31, 2016

You'd be hard-pressed to find a modern blockbuster that didn't have reshoots, and the part about unhappy execs is just tabloid editorialising. Seems like a non-story.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:52 PM on May 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

More has come out and allegedly there is a desire to shift the tone of the movie to something more "Star Wars." When Edwards set out to make Rogue One, he did so admitting that he wanted to make a war movie. Assuming because he went and did that, the current cut apparently doesn't hit all four quadrants (demograhics desired for big tent pole films) and the reshoots are intended to tweak the film to do so.

In a way, I think Edwards' idea is just too soon. Someday there will be a 'war movie' Star Wars, but this early in Disney's launching of the film franchise, they're just not going to be that liberal, I suspect. There's simply too much riding on it to establish the anthology films as legitimate alternatives to the trilogy films, as opposed to lesser stories to fill the years when we don't get to see Rey, Poe or Finn.

But tobascodagama is absolutely right about the regularity of re-shoots, particularly in big films. Incidentally, it's a practice that Pixar always plans for even before the film is even viewed, and which meant it was not surprising, say, when John Carter went back for reshoots when it was directed by Andrew Stanton of Pixar. At that time, reshoots were still not quite as common for big films so many in the industry news saw it as a troubled film, unfortunately.
posted by Atreides at 6:42 AM on June 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

There have been reshoots for movies for as long as there have been movies. Sometimes that means that it's a troubled production, sometimes they just didn't get the shots they wanted or realized that they needed some connecting scenes to smooth out the narrative or twenty other reasons.
posted by octothorpe at 7:28 AM on June 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

In a way, I think Edwards' idea is just too soon. Someday there will be a 'war movie' Star Wars, but this early in Disney's launching of the film franchise, they're just not going to be that liberal, I suspect

I, for one, feel like it is not too soon for a 'war movie' Star Wars, but then again I'm just some jerk with a keyboard, not a mega-studio with control of a mega-franchise.
posted by nubs at 7:31 AM on June 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

It kinda sounds to me like Disney is worried because there aren't enough ewoks in the movie so go back and put in more ewoks. Which is to say that I'm already looking forward to the director's cut without so many ewoks.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:03 AM on June 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Which is to say that I'm already looking forward to the director's cut without so many ewoks.

Given the market for the original trilogy where Han shoots first etc., I wonder whether Disney is intentionally using this to test the waters for "official" SW movies and "director's cut" SW movies so they can sell parents the PG family multiplex experience while still selling us nerds the "more authentic" versions on DVD.
posted by Etrigan at 8:07 AM on June 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I want the Trade Federation cut of TFA that restores the cut scenes that were supposed to explain just what the hell is going on with the New Republic, First Order, and Rebellion.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:05 AM on June 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Disney is worried because there aren't enough ewoks in the movie

Any Disney movie must have an answer to the question: which character goes in the Happy Meal? The trailer we've seen so far offers no clues.
posted by bonehead at 11:28 AM on June 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

New Star Wars Perfumes - Smell Like a Jedi

Still waiting for my Sarlacc Pit Slow Cooker, guys.
posted by nubs at 7:55 AM on June 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

I want the Trade Federation cut of TFA that restores the cut scenes that were supposed to explain just what the hell is going on with the New Republic, First Order, and Rebellion.

The New Republic are in a cold war with the First Order. They cannot afford/justify-with-their-electorate open warfare so they secretly fund the Resistance (a kind of CIA funding the local guerillas situation) to do their dirty work. In the Star Wars universe this makes more sense (than the messy real-world CIA funding) because we know the FO are objectively Evil and the NR's actions against them are justified when we find the FO were planning a Death Star attack.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:11 AM on June 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

I also seem to recall reading somewhere that the New Republic government had some FO sympathizers/agents who had infiltrated it as a means of keeping it pointed away from a direct military confrontation.
posted by nubs at 9:15 AM on June 14, 2016

You want to read Claudia Gray's Bloodline, as it neatly outlines the political situation in the New Republic approximately a decade or more before TFA. In the briefest shake down, the Senate is divided between Centrists, who believe in a strong central government and military, and the Populists, who like to separate power and aren't too keen on a powerful military that can be used against them. Due to these radical differences, almost nothing can be done in the Senate.

At the outset of the novel, the Senate finally agrees to create something of a Prime Minister position, or really, a position similar to the old Supreme Chancellor spot by which to make things happen again, and Leia Organa is expected to win.

Within the Centrists, there is a character who actively collects Imperial memorabilia (Ransolm Casterfo), who wishes for a return to Empire, but one better lead. There are some Centrists connected to the First Order's future rise.
posted by Atreides at 12:05 PM on June 14, 2016

It raises some interesting questions about what the best way to govern in a universe like Star Wars is. Because of the large scale and diversity of interests, representational systems like the Senate bog down into factions and bureaucracy; tyranny has pitfalls (literally for Palpatine) and the difficulty of being able to keep everything in line.

I'm kind of surprised to not see some alternative forms being proposed, given that it is known that the Old Republic became weak and corrupt which made it ripe for a tyrant to seize control. Maybe a loose Confederacy or a Parlimentary style democracy or some such.

(I'd rather talk politics in Star Wars than in the real world right now).
posted by nubs at 1:03 PM on June 14, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's a topic that people don't seem to care about, for whatever reason, but I think it's really interesting. The standard formula of "X... in space!" seems to apply to governments more than anything else.

A lot of it, I think, is due to modern sci fi's roots in the cold war era, which is why you tend to see Benevolent Republics and Evil Empires and not much else. (If it's a deconstruction, your Republic might be corrupt and/or inept instead of Benevolent. Whee.) You do, very rarely, see a kind of feudalism in space a la 40k, which I actually think makes a whole heap more sense than the other two, if your setting is like most space operas.

Meanwhile, I've got a couple of earth-bound books in my queue that both radically rethink what future governments could look like. Too Like the Lightning has a world transformed by flying cars where nation-state citizenship has been replaced by voluntary membership in non-geographical "hives" that all have their own ethics, laws, and governments, ranging from a neo-neoclassical take on the Roman Empire under the Masons to a "shareholder democracy" under the Mitsubishi to a literal suggestion box used by the Cousins. And then Infomocracy, as the name implies, is about "microdemocracy" brought about by the marriage of government power with big data.

I've always seen the Republic in Star Wars as being a kind of European Union thing. The Galactic Senate is huge and loud and doesn't get much done, but it doesn't matter because independent planetary/system governments are handling all the day-to-day business. There doesn't seem to be any real executive branch, so it's definitely a parliamentary arrangement. Plus, Naboo and Alderaan both clearly have some kind of aristocracy that send their chosen representatives to the Senate, which makes it sound like the UN general assembly or maybe the pre-17th Amendment US Senate.

I wonder if there's no passion to reform the Republic or try a different form of government simply because nobody really cares about it at that level? We as viewers spend our time jetting around in space, but I get the impression that most normal people spend their entire lives on a single planet. For those who do get around, like smugglers and aristocrats, their livelihood would seem to depend more on the lack of government interference than anything else, so there's no incentive to shake up the Republic system with something more representative of the will of the people, whatever that might be.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:52 PM on June 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

A lot of it, I think, is due to modern sci fi's roots in the cold war era, which is why you tend to see Benevolent Republics and Evil Empires and not much else. (If it's a deconstruction, your Republic might be corrupt and/or inept instead of Benevolent. Whee.)

I think that part of it also is a tendency/desire/need for the story to be able to just do some world-building without having to dig too deeply into the nitty gritty; SF&F generally have a lot of world-building to do and being able to wave at a political system and say it's a Republic or Despotic or Feudalistic without having to delve into the nuts and bolts of how it works is something to avoid because the audience is also trying to absorb the alt-history/tech/magic details at the same time. Unless the political system becomes or is somehow germane to the plot, but it feels to me that is (until recently) a fairly niche type of SF/F.
posted by nubs at 7:53 PM on June 14, 2016

<offtopic>Hey, I'm not the only one on the Too Like the Lightning train!</offtopic>
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:05 PM on June 14, 2016

<offtopic>I like the part where Latin gets translated into simpler Latin.</offtopic>
posted by tobascodagama at 7:31 AM on June 15, 2016

What we know about the Old Republic was that it could enact laws which took affect across every member planet, such as the banning of slavery ("I thought slavery was outlawed" - Padme), and obviously, it also seems to work as a place for mediation between planets/factions, such as the Trade Federation's embargo of Naboo. (It's no shock that Phantom Menace is our go to for Star Wars politics).

What we don't know with the Old Republic versus the New Republic is whether it had the same level of factionalism. At a glance, the Old Republic on screen kind of reflected a parliamentary body which was bogged down by the use of procedure to inhibit real action. The state of the Old Republic, of course, had to be so terrible that people believed declaring an Empire was the best option going forward (when this happened in Rome, the Roman Republic was already pretty much a plutocracy which at times deigned to pretend the people's house had a voice, but stomped down on the politicians who tried to make that real.)

In Bloodline, you do learn there's a kind of galactic royalty group, but one which many treat as a relic of the past. But likewise, in Princess Leia, the five comic limited series, we meet an ardent royalist of Alderaan, who expected royal members, like Leia, to act in certain ways and what not. So on Alderaan, it seems as if people truly believed that the royal family had a duty to rule wisely and what not. Naboo is just awkward. Somehow they trust in a training regime to place young women, about the age of 10 to 12, in charge of major cities, and then have teenagers slightly older in charge of the whole planet. I believe testing is involved and what not, but it has to be presupposed on a system that must guarantee the most ablest women are educated and prepared for the responsibilities and requirements of such leadership. (UNLESS, it was a system put in place by those who believed they could ably control said teen/tween girls and they're really just figure heads).
posted by Atreides at 8:59 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

I really think Lucas did have something like space feudalism in mind at first, but he lost his nerve, the same way he lost his nerve about Han shooting first. It wasn't consistent with the political or moral tone he wanted, so he Nerfed it, leading to ridiculous elected monarchs and simultaneous blaster bolts.
posted by chrchr at 10:35 AM on June 15, 2016

I'm sure what he had in mind, actually, was literally the Roman Republic. And elected monarchs aren't that unusual even in human history. The Roman Kingdom, oddly enough, was a good example of this, as the Senate would be responsible for electing a new King during the interregnum.

The weird part is that the elected monarch and the (elected?) Senator were the same person, at least in Naboo's case. Maybe they started electing Senators and then figured the same person should just be the planet's ruler as well. I'm gonna leave Alderaan out of it, since who knows what was going on there with the Organa family. I always figured they were just a Patrician family rather than monarchs, and Bail just happened to be the elected Senator as well as a Patrician (which, again, is also not that weird).

The story of the Old Republic's fall and the Empire's rise loosely matches what occurred in Rome. (The Senate is maneuvered into appointing a dictator-for-life who later styles himself as Emperor.) Plus, you've got name coincidences like Palatine/Palpatine and Tarquin/Tarkin that strongly suggest an influence from Roman history as well.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:34 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]

Rome has always been the most prominent template. Even the Empire's Nazi stylings fit into that, what with the Nazis having their own Roman obsession.
posted by Artw at 11:43 AM on June 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

What we don't know with the Old Republic versus the New Republic is whether it had the same level of factionalism.

It appears to me that it did, at least toward the end of its life - the Trade Federation, the Separatists, the faction that Padme was involved with as opposed to others that appeared to favour more direct confrontational/interventionist approaches. Between the factions and the procedural roadblocks, the Old Republic at the end of life appears pretty similar to how the New Republic is being described. Aftermath also seemed to be setting up some indications of problems with how the idealism of the Rebellion and the New Republic was going to be changed when running into the actual problems of governance.

Now the New Republic is gone, of course, which gives the people at the helm a chance to maybe do something different and unexpected with the political structure in broad strokes - do you wind up with regional governments, with no overall coordinating body? Does Leia face the temptation of taking up the reins of power, becoming a short-term dictator who can surrender power at the end of the crisis, akin to Cincinnatus? Lucas certainly has expressed some admiration for the idea of a strong-man type government at times, to correct wrongs and excesses, but the question of how you bring that moment to an end is an interesting one to answer.

Ultimately, that might be asking a bit too much of the franchise - Star Wars needs quick pacing and action, not philosophical conversations and meditations on the nature of power and governance. At the same time, though, it is a pretty tremendous vehicle for asking some questions about power and legitimacy, due to the nature of the stories (small groups up against overwhelming forces) and some of the actors (the Jedi, the Sith) inside of them.
posted by nubs at 12:08 PM on June 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

I do wonder how you'd sell the idea of Leia becoming a dictator-pro-tem as being distinct from the excuse Palpatine used to become Emperor, but I'd be interested in seeing the new writers give it a try.

Fragmentary planet/system governments with no more than a token governing body to enforce treaty compliance and community standards would be an interesting approach. Maybe just a very, very basic framework that agrees free travel between signatory systems a la Schengen, plus non-aggression/mutual defence pacts and a common currency that supplements rather than replaces local currencies.

Which sets the stage perfectly for an external threat to come along in the new EU or the next trilogy that makes people start thinking they should have a more centralised galactic government again...
posted by tobascodagama at 1:55 PM on June 15, 2016

I think the thing with Leia is she's good at this stuff, would be good at becoming a supreme leader, but doesn't want to because she knows where that leads. So she tries to reject it and yet, here she is again, leading an army.
posted by Artw at 2:08 PM on June 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the thing with Leia is she's good at this stuff, would be good at becoming a supreme leader, but doesn't want to because she knows where that leads.

It might make a very interesting arc for the entire nine film set at the end; the first third being about someone actively striving towards being the ultimate totalitarian leader and the seduction of power for Anakin; the middle third about Leia's father being redeemed from his role in a totalitarian state; and the final act about Leia taking on a supreme leader role only to reject it and surrender power when her task is complete. A Skywalker who has power thrust upon them, uses it, and then hands it back over to others (as opposed to Anakin, who actively sought power and never really surrendered it, despite his change of heart; or Luke who had it but has apparently walked away in the face of failure).
posted by nubs at 3:07 PM on June 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

I like that idea.
I'd like to see a recontextualisation (like how later Dune novels completely undermined the idea of Paul as a hero and showed him to be a tyrant and a coward) of star wars so that in the end it's not Anakins story, nor Luke's story, but ultimately Leia is the hero of the story.

With Leia showing that the answer isn't rule of warrior monks, nor centralised power hungry dictatorships, the answer is making small changes, taking only the power you need and surrendering it if you can.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:40 AM on June 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

In Bloodline, Leia definitely is willing to adopt a more executive position, until her campaign is undermined and her chances irreparably destroyed.

I'm still not convinced that the New Republic is destroyed. If someone wiped out Washington, D.C., does that mean the United States is destroyed? Absolutely not. The New Republic is made up of hundreds, potentially thousands, of member planets. The only thing that was destroyed was essentially the capital of the government. There's no reason a new senate cannot reconvene on a different planet with new elected/selected Senators.

If Episode VIII doesn't address this aspect of it, I'll be sorely disappointed. As the New Republic has been presented so far leading up to TFA, it would make more sense for us to watch the New Republic collapse in the next movie - as the two major factions go their own way over how to respond to the First Order threat. The First Order may co-opt the Centrists faction with the remaining Populist planets pivoting to face off against the other in what might be Galactic Civil War - Part 2. In this scenario, the Resistance is drawn into the side of the Populists (that's where Leia's political friends were positioned prior to her forming the Resistance).
posted by Atreides at 7:38 AM on June 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm still not convinced that the New Republic is destroyed. If someone wiped out Washington, D.C., does that mean the United States is destroyed?

While I agree with you in the sense of how things are in the real world, the Star Wars universe tends to take a weird view of political structures and how they fall at times (throw the Emperor down a shaft, blow up Death Star II = end of Empire, which was how RotJ left things for a long time).

In most realities, blowing up the Senate would result in a new Senate forming somewhere else, likely one that is more bloody minded and out to prosecute a war. I would love to see Hux or Phasma have a line to the effect of "all we have done is wake a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve" in the next film as an indication of how committing acts of horrific violence inflicting mass causalities without having a plan for consolidation of power and rebuilding tends to not really settle matters. But I suspect we will see continued fragmentation of the Republic.
posted by nubs at 7:58 AM on June 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah if terrorist blew up the UN we wouldn't golf clap and be like "well done terrorists, you're in charge now"

But the Galaxy in star wars has always been profoundly small. It's very much fantasy and not sci-fi in that respect. It's a story about 1 family and not all that many people attached to that 1 family.

So the massively mind bending logistical reality of a single governing body of any kind is largely hand waved. I mean there are so so many fundamental problems involved in ruling 2.45e+20 people (time! scale! relativity!) that it's best to just treat the emperor as the evil sheriff/warlord in this laser sword western/samurai movie and leave it at that.

Because as soon as you start trying to describe it, like the Phantom Menace, the more questions you provoke with every answer.
posted by French Fry at 8:15 AM on June 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's very much fantasy and not sci-fi in that respect. […] it's best to just treat the emperor as the evil sheriff/warlord in this laser sword western/samurai movie and leave it at that.

Amen to that! My inner 9 year old gets fidgety and says come onnnnnnn, this is booooring, more cool space ships and planets and creatures and light sabers! whenever people start talking hardcore Star Wars universe politics.
posted by usonian at 8:50 AM on June 16, 2016

OK, I'm hearing a proposed amendment to the discussion. *ignites lightsaber*
posted by nubs at 9:07 AM on June 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

You can tell Star Wars is fantasy because it comes in trilogies.
posted by Artw at 9:10 AM on June 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

I want a trilogy focused on the lives, trials, and tribulations of Senate aides in the last days of the Old Republic.
posted by nubs at 9:13 AM on June 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

You want to go home and rethink your life.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:59 AM on June 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

You're right! I'll go do up a spec script for that trilogy and send it to Disney.
posted by nubs at 11:03 AM on June 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

Committee Wars, Episode I: The Appropriations Boondoggle

It is a dark time for the GALACTIC SENATE. With the rise of Emperor Palpatine and the downfall of the Jedi,
the Senate becomes more and more an advisory body without any real authority or influence.

As the Senators feel the reins of power slip from their grasp, their aides struggle to find the mechanisms and rules that will allow them to keep relevant and ensure that local system rights are respected.

INKSTA INEDHANS, aide to the Senator from Alderaan and his friend, OFFICI OUSTWIT, who works for the Senator for Malastare, find themselves working late into the night reviewing items for the next day's Appropriations Committee meeting...

(opening shot of the Senate building; pan down to find the two walking down its steps)

INKSTA: I think we should be suggesting some questions about this "Death Star" project...

OFFICI: Let's give work talk a break, at least for dinner?

INKSTA: But it doesn't make any sense. Massive cost over-runs, no real deliverables, and now just a motion allowing unlimited requisitions and funding? Why all this military spending after the Separatists have been defeated?

OFFICI: It's the Emperor's pet project, Inksta. Things are bad enough already, you want our bosses to stand against it? Palpatine will have their heads!

INKSTA: Maybe we could slip a note to the Senator from Naboo...
posted by nubs at 11:54 AM on June 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

You're right! I'll go do up a spec script for that trilogy and send it to Disney.

Which they'll promptly round-file, but somehow development of a Netflix Original Series called "West Wing: A Star Wars Story" is announced a few months later.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:54 AM on June 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

Be on the alert, we have Star Wars Celebration Europe is quickly coming upon us (starts July 15th). This means we should be getting new info, and a longer trailer for Rogue One will be coming out.

It wasn't mentioned, but in The Force Awakens news, the official comic book adaptation (four parter, I think), hit the stands about a week and a half ago.
posted by Atreides at 2:52 PM on July 11, 2016

Daisy Ridley on Instagram: Episode VIII is a wrap.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:00 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Livestream from Star Wars Celebration.
Schedule is

1:00 p.m. BST / 8:00 a.m. EDT / 5:00 a.m. PDT
Ahsoka’s Untold Tales

2:00 p.m. BST / 9:00 a.m. EDT / 6:00 a.m. PDT
ILM Presents: Star Wars Archeology

3:45 p.m. BST / 10:45 a.m. EDT / 7:45 a.m. PDT
Star Wars Show LIVE! – Rogue One Panel Preview

4:00 p.m. BST / 11:00 a.m. EDT / 8:00 a.m. PDT
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story

5:00 p.m. BST / 12:00 p.m. EDT / 9:00 a.m. PDT
Star Wars Show LIVE! – Rogue One Reaction

Not sure if the Rogue One bit will have the trailer? Haven't found any info stating specifically when the trailer will be shown.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:13 AM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

The untold stories of Ahsoka Tano
posted by Artw at 6:50 AM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Rogue One panel starting...
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:07 AM on July 15, 2016

Brienne Of Tarth is presenting!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:08 AM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Original concept art of main characters
New poster
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:23 AM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ha, cast were all coming out then Ben Mendelsohn came out in full Grand Admiral costume with deathtrooper escort.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:27 AM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

A whole bunch of new RO footage in a little "making of" thing.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:32 AM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

WANT NOW.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:28 AM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yes, plz.

So far so good, I'm thinking. Christie made an excellent host for the panel. Donnie Yen has interesting taste in clothes. Mendelsohn has lethal levels of charm power.

As a head's up, a new trailer is supposed to air during a TFA special tonight on ABC. So up, I just brought this Rogue One stuff all back around to TFA. BOOM!
posted by Atreides at 12:41 PM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I just wanted to mention the TFA special on ABC tonight. Check your TV listings!
posted by Fleebnork at 1:07 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ok, so far, this is all stuff from the special features disc. Meh.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:25 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

And they didn't even show the new Rogue One trailer. FEH!
posted by Fleebnork at 6:04 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Forest Whitaker in Space Marine armor sold me from day one. He will limp into battle, awkwardly, painfully, pull down his helm's face shield, and kick the ass out anything that dares exist before Him. I don't even care if he's a good guy or badguy. If the movie delivers this alone, I am OK with this movie being a thing.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:04 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Love this clip of the ex-Imperial droid character.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:25 AM on July 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

New Star Wars Rebels trailer: HYPE LEVEL THRAWN
posted by jason_steakums at 12:05 PM on July 16, 2016 [6 favorites]

Thrawn! Darktroopers! Boba Fett concept art! The Outrider(?)! A cortosis sword?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:15 AM on July 17, 2016

So Rebels is where they're shoving all the ridiculous fanservice stuff from the old EU? I'm ok with that, I guess.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:53 AM on July 17, 2016

I hope those lizards in his quarters were just a sly reference to ysalamiri and not actually ysalamiri. Because fuck ysalamiri.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:59 AM on July 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Totally dumb theory that definitely isn't correct: "Rey" is actually "Re", which is short for "Revan".

Ok, got that out of my head, move along, nothing to see here.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:42 PM on July 17, 2016

7 Things We Learned about Episode VIII

I'm mostly intrigued by point 2.
posted by nubs at 2:02 PM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yes, citing Bridge on the River Kwai and a bunch of other war movies where the good guys lose is easy to read too much into. But...

I mean, yes, the Resistance blew up Starkiller Base, but their entire fleet is down to a half-dozen X-Wings and some transports, maybe one or two capital ships. And the core of the New Republic is gone, presumably with most of the New Republic's fleet. If Snoke was smart enough to have any appreciable force stationed somewhere other than Starkiller -- and it seemed like the Starkiller defence force was mainly ground-based turbolaser batteries plus a couple of TIE squadrons -- then they've basically got the run of the Galaxy now.

As for starting where VII left off, I'm wondering if that scene will be a cold open before the crawl or happen right after the crawl. Pretty daring choice, though.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:51 PM on July 17, 2016

Tow-Headed Boy Has Cool Race Car

ITYM "wizard."
posted by entropicamericana at 7:44 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, citing Bridge on the River Kwai and a bunch of other war movies where the good guys lose is easy to read too much into. But...

I think it's too simple to view the films as beings ones where the good guys lose.

Bridge on the River Kwai is about a POW (played by the fantastic Alec Guiness, some in this thread may be familiar with his work) who becomes absorbed in working on a project for his enemy, because he gets confused and views the project as a statement about himself and his qualities, only to realize at the end that he's made a horrible mistake and die in undoing it. Three Outlaw Samurai is about three warriors hired to kill peasants who have kidnapped the daughter of a corrupt judge and becomes a story about honour and blind obedience to authority and how honour might be redeemed through betrayal. Gunga Din well...I barely remember the film and think it has a lot of problematic elements, but I guess they are likely after the water carrier who rises to become a hero. Twelve O'Clock High (which the article notes might be the most important film in the list) is about a man assuming command of a bomber squadron that has low morale and transforming it, only to become a victim of combat fatigue/PTSD himself.

Those are interesting ideas to have in the mix in a film where we have one last Jedi, who has hidden himself away, afraid to teach the next generation; a young pupil, strong in the Force but unskilled and perhaps unwise; an apprentice Sith who appears to have joined the Dark Side out of some deep-seated fear of inadequacy; and a small rebel group of misfits including at least one deserter from the enemy side facing off against a large foe that demands obedience.
posted by nubs at 8:16 PM on July 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Nothing really new here - I know I've made some of the same points in discussion myself - but a nice article nonetheless, on the use of lightsaber duels in the OT versus the prequels and then how TFA dealt with them.

The Dance of the Lightsabers
posted by nubs at 9:24 AM on September 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

A different, cogent take on lightsaber duels in the prequels.
posted by tocts at 6:44 AM on September 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

OK, so I found this quite cool - Artstation and ILM teamed up for a challenge - artists were asked to try to be concept artists for Star Wars, using episode IV-VI and other films as an inspiration.

Check out the winners here, and see all the entries here from those that completed the challenge

(I think I like Morgan Yon's stuff the best; he took second place)
posted by nubs at 8:40 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think Fan Gao is my favourite. Very McQuarrie-esque, and I love the one of the Star Destroyer breaking through the clouds.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:29 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, Fan's stuff has the McQuarrie feel (I had McQuarrie concept posters on my wall as a kid). Beyond Morgon Yon's artistic style, I may be reacting to how well I feel his first image captures the brief for the keyframe assignment:

"an emotive still image that tells a cinematic story – within the world of Star Wars Episodes IV – VI. Use only existing Star Wars worlds, vehicles, creatures and characters to create a new story moment.

Think about the story you are trying to tell with the image – it should be cinematic and convey a specific emotion.
The image must fit within Episodes IV – VI aesthetic.
Again, everything used must already exist within the world of Star Wars.
At this stage, we are looking at how you use what has come before to tell a new and engaging story"
posted by nubs at 9:52 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Movies with Mikey: The Force Awakens

The level of craftsmanship on display from JJ is unequivocal. This was an impossible task and he made it look effortless.

Let me put it this way: just five months later we're attempting to rip this movie apart like it's any other popcorn schlock. But it isn't. This movie is a f***ing miracle. It should not. Exist. And yet it does. Yeah we can nitpick it, but why?

posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:22 PM on September 6, 2017 [2 favorites]

Love that video! Thanks tmotat!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:09 AM on September 7, 2017

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Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015)
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