Arrow: Eleven-Fifty-Nine
April 6, 2016 7:24 PM - Season 4, Episode 18 - Subscribe
Oliver and Diggle find out Merlyn wants to break Darhk out of prison; Laurel gets a surprise offer.
Word has already come out that Katie Cassidy will be at least guesting on The Flash as Earth-2's version of Black Canary, the Black Siren.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:24 PM on April 6, 2016
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:24 PM on April 6, 2016
Even knowing that, and even seeing the telegraphing a mile off:
I'm sad Laurel is dead.
Also, this was possibly the most bloody, brutal episodes of the show.
But why did they let Vixen go?
posted by Mezentian at 5:23 AM on April 7, 2016
I'm sad Laurel is dead.
Also, this was possibly the most bloody, brutal episodes of the show.
But why did they let Vixen go?
posted by Mezentian at 5:23 AM on April 7, 2016
Whether Laurel is dead-dead or comic-book-dead, that whole "you were the love of my life, now please get back with Felicity" final speech was maddening. Laurel/Ollie hasn't been a thing in forever, bringing it back up now just makes her death extra fridge-tastic. They might have been able to wring some genuine emotion out if me if her final scene had been with Quentin. But making it all about Oliver just left me angry at the manipulation instead of upset by the loss of the character.
I'm annoyed by the whole 'Chekov's coffin' opener anyway. I didn't hear until recently, on a podcast, that the writers hadn't known who was in the grave when they wrote the scene. Which just, ugh.
posted by oh yeah! at 5:25 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm annoyed by the whole 'Chekov's coffin' opener anyway. I didn't hear until recently, on a podcast, that the writers hadn't known who was in the grave when they wrote the scene. Which just, ugh.
posted by oh yeah! at 5:25 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm annoyed by the whole 'Chekov's coffin' opener anyway. I didn't hear until recently, on a podcast, that the writers hadn't known who was in the grave when they wrote the scene. Which just, ugh.
That doesn't really change my hate for it at all. I loathe it because, as I have tiresomely said before, it's just lazy. It demands of the viewer, hey worry and fret about who might be dying but without doing any work to structure it or earn it. So what if they didn't know who it would be? The whole point of the tactic is to ask the viewer to look at every single character's actions and wonder if that's the one that will get them killed... but if you really want us to think being a masked vigilante is a risky thing maybe you could do some stuff to make it seem risky? Nope, let's just hang this gun over the mantle but then never have anyone talk about guns or violence or even act perturbed for the next act and a half!
It's so lazy that it makes the "I want you to promise me one thing" and retreat from the room seem like good writing.
Shit, if they wanted to be vaguely subversive - in the sense of merely not being a case study for Sturgeon's law - they'd show the gravestone and then start laying a very clear foundation indicating who will be in it. Then have the one thing ask be that Ollie tell Lance that she loved him or some equally dull item. Set up expectation of reversals and then do none of them.
posted by phearlez at 8:33 AM on April 7, 2016
That doesn't really change my hate for it at all. I loathe it because, as I have tiresomely said before, it's just lazy. It demands of the viewer, hey worry and fret about who might be dying but without doing any work to structure it or earn it. So what if they didn't know who it would be? The whole point of the tactic is to ask the viewer to look at every single character's actions and wonder if that's the one that will get them killed... but if you really want us to think being a masked vigilante is a risky thing maybe you could do some stuff to make it seem risky? Nope, let's just hang this gun over the mantle but then never have anyone talk about guns or violence or even act perturbed for the next act and a half!
It's so lazy that it makes the "I want you to promise me one thing" and retreat from the room seem like good writing.
Shit, if they wanted to be vaguely subversive - in the sense of merely not being a case study for Sturgeon's law - they'd show the gravestone and then start laying a very clear foundation indicating who will be in it. Then have the one thing ask be that Ollie tell Lance that she loved him or some equally dull item. Set up expectation of reversals and then do none of them.
posted by phearlez at 8:33 AM on April 7, 2016
The more interesting way to kill Black Canary would have been to stick with and continue to develop the "person in over their head" angle they had when she was first taking on the Canary mantle. Thea trained 24/7 with Merlyn for months. Oliver trained for years on Lian Yu, then with Waller's people, then with Bratva, then on his own. Diggle was a professionally trained intelligence operative. It wasn't dismissive of Laurel as a person or a hero to say that taking up martial arts in her off-time from being an ADA wasn't going to net her the same results and might not be enough to keep her from getting killed when battling Merlyn's holdovers from the League of Assassins.
It would have been resonant and jarring to see someone we liked who clearly had a great deal of capability end up dead because a) this is dangerous and b) even the formidable amount of training she apparently did wasn't enough.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:48 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
It would have been resonant and jarring to see someone we liked who clearly had a great deal of capability end up dead because a) this is dangerous and b) even the formidable amount of training she apparently did wasn't enough.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:48 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
In what universe is Oliver "objectively terrible high school boyfriend" Queen the love of Laurel "yearlong alcoholic breakdown over Tommy's death" Lance's life? Not this universe!
Laurel/Ollie hasn't been a thing in forever, bringing it back up now just makes her death extra fridge-tastic
This is true. And yet Arrow's plot problem hasn't been Laurel or Felicity or shipping; the problems are the continued parallel island flashbacks, which worked thematically for seasons 1-2, but now have a stranglehold on the plot preventing any development. It's year 4 in both timelines, and the writers suddenly remembered that they've written themselves into a corner, because they only have a year left to produce season 1's feral grimdark Laurel-pining Oliver out of season 4's still-pretty-heroic Flashback Oliver, who (like season 4 Modern Oliver) hasn't thought about Laurel romantically in years. The writers are hastily throwing connecting threads out with "Lauriver has still totally been a thing all along! And Oliver's character hasn't changed at all in 6+ years!"
Remember Oliver's father's List of evildoers that Oliver brought back from the island and started season 1 obsessed with bringing to justice? Much as I hate it, the list is inevitably going to become relevant again in season 5. Because the writers insist on both continuing the flashbacks and directly tying them into the current modern plot. The writers have given themselves no timeline wiggle room, so they will have to justify bringing Modern Oliver's focus back to The List, because otherwise the season 5 parallel plots will be a cringe fest of "[modern plot does something], meanwhile Year 4 Flashback Oliver becomes increasingly obsessed with a list that he hasn't mentioned in years and that Season 1 Modern Oliver himself abandoned as irrelevant halfway through season 1 when it became clear that Merlyn / The Undertaking was the real threat." Or Flashback Oliver suddenly becomes obsessed with the list for the first time during his final boat ride home from Lian Yu.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:39 AM on April 7, 2016
Laurel/Ollie hasn't been a thing in forever, bringing it back up now just makes her death extra fridge-tastic
This is true. And yet Arrow's plot problem hasn't been Laurel or Felicity or shipping; the problems are the continued parallel island flashbacks, which worked thematically for seasons 1-2, but now have a stranglehold on the plot preventing any development. It's year 4 in both timelines, and the writers suddenly remembered that they've written themselves into a corner, because they only have a year left to produce season 1's feral grimdark Laurel-pining Oliver out of season 4's still-pretty-heroic Flashback Oliver, who (like season 4 Modern Oliver) hasn't thought about Laurel romantically in years. The writers are hastily throwing connecting threads out with "Lauriver has still totally been a thing all along! And Oliver's character hasn't changed at all in 6+ years!"
Remember Oliver's father's List of evildoers that Oliver brought back from the island and started season 1 obsessed with bringing to justice? Much as I hate it, the list is inevitably going to become relevant again in season 5. Because the writers insist on both continuing the flashbacks and directly tying them into the current modern plot. The writers have given themselves no timeline wiggle room, so they will have to justify bringing Modern Oliver's focus back to The List, because otherwise the season 5 parallel plots will be a cringe fest of "[modern plot does something], meanwhile Year 4 Flashback Oliver becomes increasingly obsessed with a list that he hasn't mentioned in years and that Season 1 Modern Oliver himself abandoned as irrelevant halfway through season 1 when it became clear that Merlyn / The Undertaking was the real threat." Or Flashback Oliver suddenly becomes obsessed with the list for the first time during his final boat ride home from Lian Yu.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:39 AM on April 7, 2016
Are they really saying that the number of years Oliver has been back directly corresponds to the number of years covered in the flashbacks? I don't know that they are, though I'm open to evidence.
And to me--and many other folks--the lingering plot point to tie up in the flashbacks isn't "How did Oliver become a hardened, grimdark killer obsessed with the List?" The first half of that is nearly done and the second half could have happened in a particularly resonant weekend.
The big flashback plot point that desperately needs to be addressed is bee tee dubs, Oliver spent some time as a Russian mobster in the Bratva.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:43 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
And to me--and many other folks--the lingering plot point to tie up in the flashbacks isn't "How did Oliver become a hardened, grimdark killer obsessed with the List?" The first half of that is nearly done and the second half could have happened in a particularly resonant weekend.
The big flashback plot point that desperately needs to be addressed is bee tee dubs, Oliver spent some time as a Russian mobster in the Bratva.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:43 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is the part of the Wikia entry for Ollie that rankles everyone for not having been dealt with yet in the flashbacks:
At some point later on, Oliver wound up in Russia, learned to speak Russian and became a captain in the Bratva, implying that he reunited with Anatoly at some point. He greatly improved his Chinese to the point where it was flawless and could be passed off as being Chinese. He also further studied his father's list and learned more about Starling City's corruptness and set a mission for himself, vowing to either extort or kill all those on the list who'd harmed Starling. He also designed a green suit to conceal his identity.posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:50 AM on April 7, 2016
At some point, they should go bananas by wrapping up the flashbacks and then doing flash forwards instead.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:54 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:54 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The big flashback plot point that desperately needs to be addressed is bee tee dubs, Oliver spent some time as a Russian mobster in the Bratva.
I thought of you when his forgettable female companion in the flashback asks him to go talk to her dad in Russia if she doesn't make it off the island. Well that's next season then.
posted by phearlez at 10:33 AM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I thought of you when his forgettable female companion in the flashback asks him to go talk to her dad in Russia if she doesn't make it off the island. Well that's next season then.
posted by phearlez at 10:33 AM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have this theory that the Lian Yu sets on Arrow are a bit like the CC Jitters set on The Flash. That is, I imagine a pissed-off accountant repeatedly walking into the writer's room and demanding, "You made us pay for the fucking thing! USE IT AGAIN!"
Something like 45% of all of the interactions in Central City take place at CC Jitters.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:45 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Something like 45% of all of the interactions in Central City take place at CC Jitters.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:45 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are they really saying that the number of years Oliver has been back directly corresponds to the number of years covered in the flashbacks?
Yes, the flashbacks are always supposed to be five years prior to the present day of the show, as it advances.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:41 PM on April 7, 2016
Yes, the flashbacks are always supposed to be five years prior to the present day of the show, as it advances.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:41 PM on April 7, 2016
At some point later on, Oliver wound up in Russia, learned to speak Russian and became a captain in the Bratva, implying that he reunited with Anatoly at some point. He greatly improved his Chinese to the point where it was flawless and could be passed off as being Chinese. He also further studied his father's list and learned more about Starling City's corruptness and set a mission for himself, vowing to either extort or kill all those on the list who'd harmed Starling. He also designed a green suit to conceal his identity.
Oh, and ended up stranded back on the island long enough to become ragged and grow a giant six month hobo beard, and set up a big bonfire to light so he could be rescued by civilians. Even though ARGUS sent him there a year before, and was grooming him as an involuntary asset with such furious dedication that they refused to let him go home a year prior.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:44 PM on April 7, 2016
Oh, and ended up stranded back on the island long enough to become ragged and grow a giant six month hobo beard, and set up a big bonfire to light so he could be rescued by civilians. Even though ARGUS sent him there a year before, and was grooming him as an involuntary asset with such furious dedication that they refused to let him go home a year prior.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:44 PM on April 7, 2016
Isn't anyone else assuming that Ollie and Laurel faked her death so that Darhk wouldn't come to finish the job while she is incapacitated, and then she can pop up in the big final fight and turn the tide?
Sure it's evilly cruel to her Dad and the other members of the team, but it's exactly the kind of thing these people do to each other.
posted by Tabitha Someday at 5:21 PM on April 22, 2016
Sure it's evilly cruel to her Dad and the other members of the team, but it's exactly the kind of thing these people do to each other.
posted by Tabitha Someday at 5:21 PM on April 22, 2016
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I really figured Detective Lance or Andy.
I wonder if this means that if/when Legends of Tomorrow heavily reshuffles the cast (the rumor for a while has been that season 2 will be rip leading a mostly new team), Sara might come back to Arrow as Black Canary.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:46 PM on April 6, 2016