The Last of Us: Look for the Light Show Only
March 12, 2023 9:28 PM - Season 1, Episode 9 - Subscribe
Joel and Ellie finally arrive at the hospital in Salt Lake City and that's when the trouble begins.
This is the show only thread!
This is the show only thread!
lastofusplaining?
posted by fairmettle at 10:14 PM on March 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fairmettle at 10:14 PM on March 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I almost went to go reheat a can of beefaroni, Chef Boyardee.
posted by porpoise at 10:28 PM on March 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by porpoise at 10:28 PM on March 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
me too
posted by mephisjo at 10:38 PM on March 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mephisjo at 10:38 PM on March 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nobody asked her "are you ok with this? Are you willing to make this sacrifice?"
Is it right to ask a child to do that, though?
posted by Apocryphon at 12:14 AM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Is it right to ask a child to do that, though?
posted by Apocryphon at 12:14 AM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's a fundamentally stupid idea, though, to kill their only immune person over one doctor's theory. They haven't nearly exhausted their options that don't kill Ellie, they don't know for sure that the doctor's theory will work, and they're just as likely to kill her and be left without any hope of a cure.
Also it's fully possible to take a tissue sample from someone's brain without killing them. It really seems like the Fireflies' doctors are hacks.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:20 AM on March 13, 2023 [59 favorites]
Also it's fully possible to take a tissue sample from someone's brain without killing them. It really seems like the Fireflies' doctors are hacks.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:20 AM on March 13, 2023 [59 favorites]
And like, if they're that desperate to do unethical human experimentation, they don't even need Ellie? Marlene knows how Ellie became immune, they could repeat that experiment. All you need is a pregnant woman and a way to infect her.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:54 AM on March 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:54 AM on March 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think it should be said Druckmann and Mazin wanted it to be clear that yeah, the surgery would have worked with pretty good certainty. So Joel made his choice knowing the surgery had a very good chance of saving humanity.
I love the giraffe scene. So beautiful and haunting to have that in the middle of everything in that world and episode.
posted by glaucon at 4:04 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I love the giraffe scene. So beautiful and haunting to have that in the middle of everything in that world and episode.
posted by glaucon at 4:04 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
This fucking show! This gay emotional zombie show.
posted by ellieBOA at 5:07 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 5:07 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
‘We Have to Interrogate How We Feel About Our Heroes’ The Last of Us co-creator Craig Mazin questions the inherent positivity of love. [Vulture / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 5:34 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 5:34 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it should be said Druckmann and Mazin wanted it to be clear that yeah, the surgery would have worked with pretty good certainty.
Boy they utterly failed to do that. It absolutely seemed like (1) they were just guessing (2) they hadn’t exhausted any non-lethal ways of getting their unobtainium (3) they had no way to test, reproduce, manufacture, or distribute a supposed cure.
I thought Joel was almost justified in his actions, as this group didn’t seem that different from the cannibal cult in their aims or means.
posted by jeoc at 5:41 AM on March 13, 2023 [38 favorites]
Boy they utterly failed to do that. It absolutely seemed like (1) they were just guessing (2) they hadn’t exhausted any non-lethal ways of getting their unobtainium (3) they had no way to test, reproduce, manufacture, or distribute a supposed cure.
I thought Joel was almost justified in his actions, as this group didn’t seem that different from the cannibal cult in their aims or means.
posted by jeoc at 5:41 AM on March 13, 2023 [38 favorites]
This whole episode felt forced to me; from Joel and Ellie's conversation at the start, which just had the tenor of a "I'm two days from retirement" speech in a cop flick, including Joel telling Ellie how she's changed him instead trusting the audience to see it. The decision - by everyone - not to include Ellie in the decision also felt forced, an attempt to make the audience uncomfortable when Joel goes on a rampage, when in reality I was left wondering why the show had suddenly taken Ellies agency away and why there weren't a bunch of steps to the testing before "We have to take her brain."
For the most part, I thought the show did a decent job of avoiding the trap of "humans are the real monsters" for most of the run, only to swerve hard into it at the end.
posted by nubs at 6:01 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
For the most part, I thought the show did a decent job of avoiding the trap of "humans are the real monsters" for most of the run, only to swerve hard into it at the end.
posted by nubs at 6:01 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
...we're left wondering if he should even be called a hero at all.
I can't remember the exact line because it was 30 years ago (eeesh) but there was a British show called Cracker where the lead (played by Robbie Coltrane) replied, when asked to do something heroic:
"I don't want to be hero! A hero is just someone who's too scared to be a coward!
I really liked this show on the whole, but it felt rushed to me. There's some pretty big ideas that really feel like they should have had more time to breath. I wonder if that's because of its gaming origins, where you presumably can't spend too long pondering philisophical questions of love and redemption and trolley-esque type problems, because there's an expectation that the player needs to get back on the trigger and start shooting at things. I am not a gamer, so no idea if that's valid or not.
posted by chill at 6:45 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can't remember the exact line because it was 30 years ago (eeesh) but there was a British show called Cracker where the lead (played by Robbie Coltrane) replied, when asked to do something heroic:
"I don't want to be hero! A hero is just someone who's too scared to be a coward!
I really liked this show on the whole, but it felt rushed to me. There's some pretty big ideas that really feel like they should have had more time to breath. I wonder if that's because of its gaming origins, where you presumably can't spend too long pondering philisophical questions of love and redemption and trolley-esque type problems, because there's an expectation that the player needs to get back on the trigger and start shooting at things. I am not a gamer, so no idea if that's valid or not.
posted by chill at 6:45 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think they were avoiding turning it into a medical drama with po faced doctors explaining Ellie's chances of survival after the procedure, and Joel and Ellie having Big Scenes about it. But they could have provided at least a little context about how the procedure would work... i.e., would it be certain death for Ellie? Extremely risky because the operation had to be done in a defunct hospital with perhaps not top-trained staff and dilapidated equipment? Something. A sentence or two or five.
I guess they went with with Joel simply assuming any kind of brain surgery in this post-Apocalyptic world was tremendously risky at best. The merest chance of losing Ellie is too much for him now. His experience with the Fireflys maybe made him skeptical about their competency? It just happened so quickly that the murder rampage left a big question mark for me.
I've mentioned it in threads about this show before, but I think they could have used another two episodes this season. Most shows and movies are over-long and padded out, IMO, but this one really could have used more time with Ellie and Joel together, and certainly some more time outlining the kind of medical stakes that were going on here. Performances are absolutely great, but this show moves too quickly for its own good.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:46 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess they went with with Joel simply assuming any kind of brain surgery in this post-Apocalyptic world was tremendously risky at best. The merest chance of losing Ellie is too much for him now. His experience with the Fireflys maybe made him skeptical about their competency? It just happened so quickly that the murder rampage left a big question mark for me.
I've mentioned it in threads about this show before, but I think they could have used another two episodes this season. Most shows and movies are over-long and padded out, IMO, but this one really could have used more time with Ellie and Joel together, and certainly some more time outlining the kind of medical stakes that were going on here. Performances are absolutely great, but this show moves too quickly for its own good.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:46 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
This whole episode felt forced to me
I think the season felt slightly small and could have used a more even hand throughout, in retrospect. Possibly another episode, with some if the stories more spread out over more than one episode and given time to breath.
I think if the show didn't have Bella and Pedro's obvious acting chops and chemistry, we'd be talking very differently about it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:54 AM on March 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think the season felt slightly small and could have used a more even hand throughout, in retrospect. Possibly another episode, with some if the stories more spread out over more than one episode and given time to breath.
I think if the show didn't have Bella and Pedro's obvious acting chops and chemistry, we'd be talking very differently about it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:54 AM on March 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
I thought that the episode was great, and that nothing was particularly forced. Marlene wasn't a bad person for wanting to just do the thing and get Joel out of the way, but she was very much in the mode of almost every person that we see in the show: willing to dispose of people to get what they want, whether it was order (FEDRA and, to some extent, the enclave in Jackson), power (creepy pedo preacher guy last episode), or something that might have been a cure but maybe not (Marlene and the Fireflies). Remember, Marlene chose Joel to courier Ellie to the research center precisely because of who he was in the first episode: a hard case who wasn't at all reluctant to stack bodies to get the job done. He is still that guy, to some extent, as his rampage through the hospital showed, but he's also the guy who very reluctantly let down his defenses to effectively adopt Ellie. And Marlene was just going to raid Ellie's brain for a maybe-cure without asking her permission, and have Joel frog-marched out without even a chance to say goodbye. Good people skills there, fearless Firefly leader! Not even checking with the kid (who, as we know, very well might have said yes) and maybe let her tape a goodbye message to Joel, if anyone has a working video recording device at this point--a cassette tape probably would have been fine.
Personally, I don't think that Druckmann and Mazin made the case that it would work. We've seen exactly one mycologist on this show, in a flashback to the very beginning of the pandemic, and her professional recommendation for stopping it consisted of exactly one word: "Bomb." (On her own city, with her in it.) Their "research facility" seemed to be one not-too-clean operating room (I can just imagine anyone who's worked in a real surgical suite just getting the hibbity-jibbities looking at that) and a guy whose professional credentials will be forever unknown; for all we know, he could have been a veterinarian or a paramedic back in the day, or an accountant who got the First Aid merit badge when he was in the scouts. (As far as I can remember, we've only seen one doctor in the show, the one that Kathleen murdered in Kansas City.) jeoc has already made the important points above. Their "cure" may very well have not worked, or even just infected previously-clean individuals; it's quite possible that the only way to become immune is exactly the way that Ellie did.
Anyway. Kind of a heartbreaking ending but one that makes perfect sense in the context of the shows and the characters involved. I assume that they'll take a stab at adapting the sequel game; here's the thread on the blue about it [spoilers, probably], and while I've recently gone on record as saying that it shouldn't be necessary to get swole to be an action hero(ine), it would also be kind of cool if Bella Ramsey got jacked to stick it to the haters.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:01 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Personally, I don't think that Druckmann and Mazin made the case that it would work. We've seen exactly one mycologist on this show, in a flashback to the very beginning of the pandemic, and her professional recommendation for stopping it consisted of exactly one word: "Bomb." (On her own city, with her in it.) Their "research facility" seemed to be one not-too-clean operating room (I can just imagine anyone who's worked in a real surgical suite just getting the hibbity-jibbities looking at that) and a guy whose professional credentials will be forever unknown; for all we know, he could have been a veterinarian or a paramedic back in the day, or an accountant who got the First Aid merit badge when he was in the scouts. (As far as I can remember, we've only seen one doctor in the show, the one that Kathleen murdered in Kansas City.) jeoc has already made the important points above. Their "cure" may very well have not worked, or even just infected previously-clean individuals; it's quite possible that the only way to become immune is exactly the way that Ellie did.
Anyway. Kind of a heartbreaking ending but one that makes perfect sense in the context of the shows and the characters involved. I assume that they'll take a stab at adapting the sequel game; here's the thread on the blue about it [spoilers, probably], and while I've recently gone on record as saying that it shouldn't be necessary to get swole to be an action hero(ine), it would also be kind of cool if Bella Ramsey got jacked to stick it to the haters.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:01 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I find that I'm having 2 distinct sets of reactions. One to the characters and the story, and one to the show-as-a-show.
I was pretty annoyed with the show-as-a-show as I was watching. It became very video-game-y, and I'm not surprised to learn that this whole ep was lifted pretty much completely from the game. Suddenly Joel is unstoppable, taking down a dozen well trained soldiers without a scratch. It felt like watching someone play the game, not the excellent TV show I'd been watching.
But then we got to "OK," and all was forgiven, that was perfect, and it needed the setup that came before.
On the character front, holy cow do I hate Joel. Turns out, he's the biggest villain of all. Both he and Marlene are awful for denying Ellie ANY agency in all of this -- but he's worse, having just straight-up murdered a ton of Fireflies for no reason other than he's afraid go through loss again. Fuck that guy.
Part of me doesn't WANT a second season. I prefer to make up my own story about how the next 10-20 years plays out for the two of them. It does not go well for Joel. :)
And it breaks my heart thinking about the day Ellie finds out. How angry is she going to be to learn that no one gave her a choice! She was treated like a little kid who couldn't understand -- probably the thing she hates the most!
Wonderful story telling. Great TV show. Looking forward to Season 2!
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:06 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was pretty annoyed with the show-as-a-show as I was watching. It became very video-game-y, and I'm not surprised to learn that this whole ep was lifted pretty much completely from the game. Suddenly Joel is unstoppable, taking down a dozen well trained soldiers without a scratch. It felt like watching someone play the game, not the excellent TV show I'd been watching.
But then we got to "OK," and all was forgiven, that was perfect, and it needed the setup that came before.
On the character front, holy cow do I hate Joel. Turns out, he's the biggest villain of all. Both he and Marlene are awful for denying Ellie ANY agency in all of this -- but he's worse, having just straight-up murdered a ton of Fireflies for no reason other than he's afraid go through loss again. Fuck that guy.
Part of me doesn't WANT a second season. I prefer to make up my own story about how the next 10-20 years plays out for the two of them. It does not go well for Joel. :)
And it breaks my heart thinking about the day Ellie finds out. How angry is she going to be to learn that no one gave her a choice! She was treated like a little kid who couldn't understand -- probably the thing she hates the most!
Wonderful story telling. Great TV show. Looking forward to Season 2!
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:06 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
FYI if you're watching on HBOMax, there's a 1/2 hour long season 1 "Making Of" segment linked off the episode's page under "Extras"
posted by nathan_teske at 7:17 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by nathan_teske at 7:17 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
And it breaks my heart thinking about the day Ellie finds out.
She knows (or strongly suspects) already - that last shot makes it clear that she's decided not to force the issue, at least not yet. Major props to BR on those last 30 seconds of the episode - with barely a movement, we see the doubt, the realization, and then the decision that led to the "Okay".
posted by Mogur at 7:19 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
She knows (or strongly suspects) already - that last shot makes it clear that she's decided not to force the issue, at least not yet. Major props to BR on those last 30 seconds of the episode - with barely a movement, we see the doubt, the realization, and then the decision that led to the "Okay".
posted by Mogur at 7:19 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is it right to ask a child to do that, though?
A child who's been through what Ellie has been through? In this world? Not only is it right to ask her, but I'd say it's a *moral obligation* to give her the choice.
posted by mediareport at 7:24 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
A child who's been through what Ellie has been through? In this world? Not only is it right to ask her, but I'd say it's a *moral obligation* to give her the choice.
posted by mediareport at 7:24 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I loved the giraffe scene too, but couldn't help thinking that such huge targets would have been killed for meat years ago.
As others have said, the episode seemed rushed, particularly when you think how much of the series was just Joel and Ellie getting to this point. Joel walking through the ruined hospital shooting people was completely like watching a video game, but I think his actions were totally justified from the viewer's point of view, given the paucity of information we were given about the scientific research that was allegedly going on and assuming that this was all he knew too.
All in all, I really enjoyed this show. It was good to see Pablo Pascal come out on top against so many adversaries, when I still recall yelling at the TV when he was Oberyn in GoT, "Finish him! FINISH HIM!" with the inevitable, gruesome outcome that befell his character then.
posted by essexjan at 7:31 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
As others have said, the episode seemed rushed, particularly when you think how much of the series was just Joel and Ellie getting to this point. Joel walking through the ruined hospital shooting people was completely like watching a video game, but I think his actions were totally justified from the viewer's point of view, given the paucity of information we were given about the scientific research that was allegedly going on and assuming that this was all he knew too.
All in all, I really enjoyed this show. It was good to see Pablo Pascal come out on top against so many adversaries, when I still recall yelling at the TV when he was Oberyn in GoT, "Finish him! FINISH HIM!" with the inevitable, gruesome outcome that befell his character then.
posted by essexjan at 7:31 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
she was very much in the mode of almost every person that we see in the show: willing to dispose of people to get what they want
Which makes the decision to not just either (a) kill Joel outright while Ellie is being prepped, or (b) keep him drugged and unconscious until the deed is done equally weird to me. Marlene doesn't give a shit about Joel, except as a hardcase who could courier Ellie. His job was done, why take any risks with him? Just keep him out of commission.
Anyways, the more I think about it, the less I like the episode; it didn't need to become a medical drama, but I think it could have been a far more interesting dramatic choice to have the conversation with Ellie and have her involved in the decision - even if that decision is for Joel to kill everyone and get her out.
I think back to the episode where they met Tommy, and Joel tried to leave her to travel with Tommy, only to show up at the end and give her a choice; and I wonder why that couldn't have been done here. Or episode 3, where Bill and Frank each get to make a choice about carrying on in this world. Maybe that was all part of setting this up - the horrible conclusion where that choice is taken away from Ellie by both Marlene and Joel, but it feels heavy-handed and manipulated to me in a way that those earlier moments didn't.
Overall, I enjoyed watching the show and that Pascal and Ramsay were great in it, and it had a lot of wonderful moments...just not hanging together for me in the end.
posted by nubs at 7:32 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Which makes the decision to not just either (a) kill Joel outright while Ellie is being prepped, or (b) keep him drugged and unconscious until the deed is done equally weird to me. Marlene doesn't give a shit about Joel, except as a hardcase who could courier Ellie. His job was done, why take any risks with him? Just keep him out of commission.
Anyways, the more I think about it, the less I like the episode; it didn't need to become a medical drama, but I think it could have been a far more interesting dramatic choice to have the conversation with Ellie and have her involved in the decision - even if that decision is for Joel to kill everyone and get her out.
I think back to the episode where they met Tommy, and Joel tried to leave her to travel with Tommy, only to show up at the end and give her a choice; and I wonder why that couldn't have been done here. Or episode 3, where Bill and Frank each get to make a choice about carrying on in this world. Maybe that was all part of setting this up - the horrible conclusion where that choice is taken away from Ellie by both Marlene and Joel, but it feels heavy-handed and manipulated to me in a way that those earlier moments didn't.
Overall, I enjoyed watching the show and that Pascal and Ramsay were great in it, and it had a lot of wonderful moments...just not hanging together for me in the end.
posted by nubs at 7:32 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tom and Lorenzo's wrap-up argues the whole season has lead up to this:
Without attempting to tell anyone how they should feel about Joel’s murder spree, we think it’s pretty inarguable that The Last of Us has been taking all of us to this exact moment with every episode this season, sticking extremely tightly to a core set of themes about chosen family, grief, and morality.
That seems a bit of a stretch to me. Like some folks above, I found the final conflict clumsy (as always, with a few beautiful, heartstopping moments) and feel the show bungled the emotional climax, which felt very video-gamey, to the detriment of the characters and story. I mentioned last week that Joel was becoming an unrealistic unstoppable killing machine, so I guess they telegraphed his superpowers in advance, but that rampage was kind of ridiculous. Like Playing In God Mode ridiculous. Like Stormtrooper Bullets Never Hit ridiculous.
I think back to the death of Tess and how much I was looking forward to getting more of her and Joel's story in flashback, and how foolish that seems now, after such a quickly rushed season that veered into shallow plotting (but great acting and mostly great characterization - for the 2 leads, at least).
I think glaucon's comment from last week is even more accurate now:
-HBO, I think, wasn’t sure this show could be a success...
-I think the creators (Mazin and Druckmann) had one guaranteed shot to tell the story of the first game. They had to tighten things quite a bit to get that done in 9-10 episodes
So much to like about this show, but it fumbled the depth and richness in the last half of the season and was mostly saved by Ramsey and Pascal. I hope season 2 tells a less rushed and fragmented story.
posted by mediareport at 7:32 AM on March 13, 2023
Without attempting to tell anyone how they should feel about Joel’s murder spree, we think it’s pretty inarguable that The Last of Us has been taking all of us to this exact moment with every episode this season, sticking extremely tightly to a core set of themes about chosen family, grief, and morality.
That seems a bit of a stretch to me. Like some folks above, I found the final conflict clumsy (as always, with a few beautiful, heartstopping moments) and feel the show bungled the emotional climax, which felt very video-gamey, to the detriment of the characters and story. I mentioned last week that Joel was becoming an unrealistic unstoppable killing machine, so I guess they telegraphed his superpowers in advance, but that rampage was kind of ridiculous. Like Playing In God Mode ridiculous. Like Stormtrooper Bullets Never Hit ridiculous.
I think back to the death of Tess and how much I was looking forward to getting more of her and Joel's story in flashback, and how foolish that seems now, after such a quickly rushed season that veered into shallow plotting (but great acting and mostly great characterization - for the 2 leads, at least).
I think glaucon's comment from last week is even more accurate now:
-HBO, I think, wasn’t sure this show could be a success...
-I think the creators (Mazin and Druckmann) had one guaranteed shot to tell the story of the first game. They had to tighten things quite a bit to get that done in 9-10 episodes
So much to like about this show, but it fumbled the depth and richness in the last half of the season and was mostly saved by Ramsey and Pascal. I hope season 2 tells a less rushed and fragmented story.
posted by mediareport at 7:32 AM on March 13, 2023
Joel walking through the ruined hospital shooting people was completely like watching a video game
Down to looting bodies and aim-assist. The only thing missing was Joel eating a couple bullets then crafting a bandage out of rags and scarfing down that can of Chef Boyaredee to get his health back up.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:39 AM on March 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Down to looting bodies and aim-assist. The only thing missing was Joel eating a couple bullets then crafting a bandage out of rags and scarfing down that can of Chef Boyaredee to get his health back up.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:39 AM on March 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
What I liked about this episode, relative to the rest of the series, is that yes, it rests on the by-now-we've-seen-it Humans Are The Real Monsters thing, but it takes it a little bit further, making it clear that Joel is cordyceps. He has just been going around killing people and killing people because survival is his only drive. Except (as they explain in the episode through the plot device of Ellie's immunity) there is something in Ellie that fools him into thinking she's part of him, and that means that his "kill anything in order to survive" doesn't apply to her, spares her, and in fact extends to her.
posted by escabeche at 8:06 AM on March 13, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 8:06 AM on March 13, 2023 [25 favorites]
Joel was wrong of course, as was Marlene. Nobody sat Ellie down, explained to her that the immunity might be reproducible, but that it would cost Ellie her life. Nobody asked her "are you ok with this? Are you willing to make this sacrifice?"
Yeah, Marlene's attempt at negotiating with Joel near the end struck me as the most hollow hypocrisy, even though she was probably right. If you're so convinced she'd "do the right thing," why not tell her the truth before sending her off to die at the hands of a surgeon whose ethics are gray, at best.
Also, it annoyed me that they kept referring to it as a cure. The thing they described was very clearly a vaccine and didn't sound like it would actually cure someone who had already been infected even if you got it to them before they "turned."
Joel walking through the ruined hospital shooting people was completely like watching a video game.
Very much so. As others have pointed out in previous episode threads, many scenes feel like watching video game cut scenes, but somehow never in a way that feels cheap or to the show's detriment. The climactic rampage, on the other hand, felt a lot like watching someone play a game. I even found myself thinking, at one point, about how ineffective the Fireflies were and no wonder they'd been losing the war since day one...and then remembering that this is a video game adaptation and that the scene was very likely one that you'd play out in the game.
The emotional impact was mostly still there for me, but it did feel lessened due to the very obvious "this is a video game adaptation" nature of the scene.
Ultimately, though, I was gutted by the lie at the end of the episode, because I can already guess at how it'll play out shortly after the start of season two, when Ellie realizes (or has proof to confirm her suspicions) that Joel lied to her and removed her agency (as did Marlene). I'm prematurely gutted from the emotions I expect to experience in a year or whenever season two will premiere (I don't think it's even started production yet, and season one took about two years to film, so it might be a long wait).
posted by asnider at 8:28 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, Marlene's attempt at negotiating with Joel near the end struck me as the most hollow hypocrisy, even though she was probably right. If you're so convinced she'd "do the right thing," why not tell her the truth before sending her off to die at the hands of a surgeon whose ethics are gray, at best.
Also, it annoyed me that they kept referring to it as a cure. The thing they described was very clearly a vaccine and didn't sound like it would actually cure someone who had already been infected even if you got it to them before they "turned."
Joel walking through the ruined hospital shooting people was completely like watching a video game.
Very much so. As others have pointed out in previous episode threads, many scenes feel like watching video game cut scenes, but somehow never in a way that feels cheap or to the show's detriment. The climactic rampage, on the other hand, felt a lot like watching someone play a game. I even found myself thinking, at one point, about how ineffective the Fireflies were and no wonder they'd been losing the war since day one...and then remembering that this is a video game adaptation and that the scene was very likely one that you'd play out in the game.
The emotional impact was mostly still there for me, but it did feel lessened due to the very obvious "this is a video game adaptation" nature of the scene.
Ultimately, though, I was gutted by the lie at the end of the episode, because I can already guess at how it'll play out shortly after the start of season two, when Ellie realizes (or has proof to confirm her suspicions) that Joel lied to her and removed her agency (as did Marlene). I'm prematurely gutted from the emotions I expect to experience in a year or whenever season two will premiere (I don't think it's even started production yet, and season one took about two years to film, so it might be a long wait).
posted by asnider at 8:28 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
In fairness to the Fireflies' desperation: they are 20 years into the apocalypse. If the knowledge and capability to find/create/distribute a vaccine still exists, it won't for much longer. But yeah, midway through the episode, the story was replaced by an Ethics Problem. And you can quibble with how much you believe the set-up, but I think it's clear they want us to accept the scenario in order to focus on the Ethics Problem. (How often do you have physical control of a train-track lever with your loved ones tied to one side and a class of schoolkids on the other, anyway?)
I did wonder about creating another immune person, but oh boy there's an Ethics Problem for you. I think once you're intentionally loosing zombies on women who are giving birth in the hopes of creating partial immunity for attached newborns, well, that's just an argument that humanity shouldn't survive.
I did really like Joel opening up about his daughter, realizing he was making it weird, and then backtracking into weird-but-sincere "she would've liked you. because you're funny." I also liked the Joel's John Wick turn in the hospital, I guess because I've been raised on American media so I'm a bit of a psychopath like that? We're so used to screen violence that I think creators have to put a lot of effort into showing violence in a way that doesn't make a bunch of the audience just think "hey, cool." They didn't bother with that here, so. Hey. Cool.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:34 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I did wonder about creating another immune person, but oh boy there's an Ethics Problem for you. I think once you're intentionally loosing zombies on women who are giving birth in the hopes of creating partial immunity for attached newborns, well, that's just an argument that humanity shouldn't survive.
I did really like Joel opening up about his daughter, realizing he was making it weird, and then backtracking into weird-but-sincere "she would've liked you. because you're funny." I also liked the Joel's John Wick turn in the hospital, I guess because I've been raised on American media so I'm a bit of a psychopath like that? We're so used to screen violence that I think creators have to put a lot of effort into showing violence in a way that doesn't make a bunch of the audience just think "hey, cool." They didn't bother with that here, so. Hey. Cool.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:34 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
It did not occur to me until I saw them both in the same episode but wow does Bella Ramsey look like she could be Ashley Johnson’s daughter.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:50 AM on March 13, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:50 AM on March 13, 2023 [27 favorites]
I can’t stop thinking about this show and Station Eleven. The choice Joel made in this episode, to take responsibility for the life of a child, even if that child would have made a different choice, one that would lead to their likely death — well, it’s in the last episode of this show, but happened in the first episode of Station Eleven. (Elly’s older than Kirsten, which changes the ethical question a bit, but it’s still such a sharp moment in both shows.)
posted by sixswitch at 10:26 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sixswitch at 10:26 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
So I think it's fair to judge the show on how well it frames the hypothetical — how many strangers would you kill to save your own child? — and also fair to point out the contrivances that the show has to make in order to get that framing.
The framing is ruined, for instance, if Ellie is conscious and informs and consents to the procedure, so they've got to exclude that as an option, even though it's something that Marlene would certainly have felt an obligation to do. No doubt her guilt would've been somewhat assuaged if Ellie had reassured her that she'd want her own death to be something that gives the losses she's experienced — her mom, Riley, Sam, and the rest — some sort of purpose.
There are arguments to be made about logistics and distribution and whether it's actually medically necessary or prudent to kill off your one known immune human being, and I think those are also fair critiques of whether the show earned the situation it placed Joel into, but I don't think they work as justifications of Joel's actions. I think he accepts what Marlene is saying at face value. As he's being marched out of the building, I am certain he is not trying to think through vaccine distribution logistics. He makes the choice for the wrong reasons.
But is it the wrong choice? Yes, I think so. If there's no in-universe way of answering these questions about whether this act would actually have saved humankind, I think you defer to the wishes of the patient, and I think that Ellie would've been willing to sacrifice herself for a mere shot at saving humanity. But even if you think it was the right decision on the merits, I'm willing to bet you'd still understand Joel's actions even if you stacked the hypothetical deck against him.
Love isn't an emotion felt in a vacuum. Joel cannot lose another daughter; he fears it more than he fears his own death. Killing someone who wants to kill someone you love is not just an act of devotion to that person; it's also a selfish act prompted by fear. Joel may die while trying to rescue Ellie, and that's fine, but he will not mourn another loss, and is willing to doom the future of humanity if that's what it takes.
Trying to read Ellie's reaction in the final shot is like gazing into a pool of water and seeing your own reflection, but my instinct is that she understands, on some level, that Joel is lying, but also understands what that lie means — that her mere existence has saved exactly one other human being and given his life a purpose that was missing ever since the day the outbreak started. That “swear to me everything you said about the Fireflies was true” was, in effect, “demonstrate how important I am to you,” and the fact that he lied without hesitation meant that the answer was “really fucking important.”
For months, Ellie has been hearing about how important she is to humanity, but it's hard to weigh that against being told how important you are to one person who's standing in front of you and cares about you and makes you feel safe.
posted by savetheclocktower at 12:32 PM on March 13, 2023 [29 favorites]
The framing is ruined, for instance, if Ellie is conscious and informs and consents to the procedure, so they've got to exclude that as an option, even though it's something that Marlene would certainly have felt an obligation to do. No doubt her guilt would've been somewhat assuaged if Ellie had reassured her that she'd want her own death to be something that gives the losses she's experienced — her mom, Riley, Sam, and the rest — some sort of purpose.
There are arguments to be made about logistics and distribution and whether it's actually medically necessary or prudent to kill off your one known immune human being, and I think those are also fair critiques of whether the show earned the situation it placed Joel into, but I don't think they work as justifications of Joel's actions. I think he accepts what Marlene is saying at face value. As he's being marched out of the building, I am certain he is not trying to think through vaccine distribution logistics. He makes the choice for the wrong reasons.
But is it the wrong choice? Yes, I think so. If there's no in-universe way of answering these questions about whether this act would actually have saved humankind, I think you defer to the wishes of the patient, and I think that Ellie would've been willing to sacrifice herself for a mere shot at saving humanity. But even if you think it was the right decision on the merits, I'm willing to bet you'd still understand Joel's actions even if you stacked the hypothetical deck against him.
Love isn't an emotion felt in a vacuum. Joel cannot lose another daughter; he fears it more than he fears his own death. Killing someone who wants to kill someone you love is not just an act of devotion to that person; it's also a selfish act prompted by fear. Joel may die while trying to rescue Ellie, and that's fine, but he will not mourn another loss, and is willing to doom the future of humanity if that's what it takes.
Trying to read Ellie's reaction in the final shot is like gazing into a pool of water and seeing your own reflection, but my instinct is that she understands, on some level, that Joel is lying, but also understands what that lie means — that her mere existence has saved exactly one other human being and given his life a purpose that was missing ever since the day the outbreak started. That “swear to me everything you said about the Fireflies was true” was, in effect, “demonstrate how important I am to you,” and the fact that he lied without hesitation meant that the answer was “really fucking important.”
For months, Ellie has been hearing about how important she is to humanity, but it's hard to weigh that against being told how important you are to one person who's standing in front of you and cares about you and makes you feel safe.
posted by savetheclocktower at 12:32 PM on March 13, 2023 [29 favorites]
Turns out, he's the biggest villain of all.
As Tess said in episode 2: "Joel and I are not good people."
posted by Pendragon at 1:43 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
As Tess said in episode 2: "Joel and I are not good people."
posted by Pendragon at 1:43 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought the scene of Joel taking out the fireflies in the hospital was pretty obviously very game-like on purpose. At least for me, it also felt like a criticism of video game violence, in a way.
When he picks up the rifle and heads back up the stairs, it was pinging my mass-shooter alarm bells in a major way. Having such violence be set in a public space devoted to healing people felt terrible (sub church, or movie theater, or school). And he was so thorough- it didn't matter if the person gave up and tossed down their gun, he was executing everyone.
I'm not sure how to phrase it, but that dissonance between the casual violence of video games and the trauma of mass-shooter violence felt intentional. I liked how they stacked the layers of conflicting messages: shot like a video game, but in places and ways that evoke mass-shootings; one person could save the world, but would be murdered in the process; traditionally fighting through armed guards is acceptable to audiences, but shooting unarmed people who are not longer a threat to you is not, etc.
All that swirls together and really hammers home the questions the episode leaves us with: What would you do for someone you love? What collateral damage is okay? What is not? What does it mean to go too far? How much are we, as an audience, willing to overlook or justify for characters we've come to care for?
posted by Bibliogeek at 1:54 PM on March 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
When he picks up the rifle and heads back up the stairs, it was pinging my mass-shooter alarm bells in a major way. Having such violence be set in a public space devoted to healing people felt terrible (sub church, or movie theater, or school). And he was so thorough- it didn't matter if the person gave up and tossed down their gun, he was executing everyone.
I'm not sure how to phrase it, but that dissonance between the casual violence of video games and the trauma of mass-shooter violence felt intentional. I liked how they stacked the layers of conflicting messages: shot like a video game, but in places and ways that evoke mass-shootings; one person could save the world, but would be murdered in the process; traditionally fighting through armed guards is acceptable to audiences, but shooting unarmed people who are not longer a threat to you is not, etc.
All that swirls together and really hammers home the questions the episode leaves us with: What would you do for someone you love? What collateral damage is okay? What is not? What does it mean to go too far? How much are we, as an audience, willing to overlook or justify for characters we've come to care for?
posted by Bibliogeek at 1:54 PM on March 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
As a gamer, and lover of this game in particular, the framing of the hospital massacre put me a lot more in mind of a (media portrayal of a) school shooting than anything else. And I think that was quite deliberate from this this team who have made this scene in two media. In other words I agree very much with Bibliogeek's point about it being incredibly intentional.
posted by Iteki at 2:10 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 2:10 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Watching the very first episode, I was impressed with how economically they sketched out the differences between Joel and Tommy. Tommy wants to save everybody—he was in that bar fight because he was defending a stranger, he wanted to pull over for that family by the road—and Joel only cares about family. In my mind it was clear that Joel’s character arc was going to be about learning to care about people as a whole, and doing the right thing to save the world, not just his own people.
Hoo boy was I mistaken!! Well done, game and show, upending my expectations.
Here’s where I admit I’ve actually purchased the game twice (once for PS3 and again for PS4) but have never gotten more than a couple of hours into it. This show has instilled the desire to try again—though with the tiny amount of time I have to devote to gaming, I should be finishing up around the time season 2 comes out.
posted by ejs at 3:44 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hoo boy was I mistaken!! Well done, game and show, upending my expectations.
Here’s where I admit I’ve actually purchased the game twice (once for PS3 and again for PS4) but have never gotten more than a couple of hours into it. This show has instilled the desire to try again—though with the tiny amount of time I have to devote to gaming, I should be finishing up around the time season 2 comes out.
posted by ejs at 3:44 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure how to phrase it, but that dissonance between the casual violence of video games and the trauma of mass-shooter violence felt intentional.
Hmm, I didn't get this at all. Up to now, the show has played it pretty straight and managed to keep the video game origins mostly at arms-length, never mind some meta-critique. They wait until the finale to add in some social commentary on video games/gun violence? Doesn't really match with anything that came before.
My immediate take was they were going for the operatic angle, akin to the infamous Daredevil hallway fight, but couldn't quite pull it off. I side with some of the other takes that this episode felt a bit rushed.
It's almost as if there was an episode missing between the finale and the previous episode. At the end of the last episode, Joel drops all of his affect-less persona after saving Ellie. At the beginning of this episode, he's chatty and joking and Ellie is the one who is distant. On paper, this seems like a good move, essentially they have switched roles. But it just didn't feel organic to me.
But let's step back and marvel for a moment: here we are debating the interpretation of a narrative and portrayal of characters that originated from a video game!
posted by jeremias at 5:41 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hmm, I didn't get this at all. Up to now, the show has played it pretty straight and managed to keep the video game origins mostly at arms-length, never mind some meta-critique. They wait until the finale to add in some social commentary on video games/gun violence? Doesn't really match with anything that came before.
My immediate take was they were going for the operatic angle, akin to the infamous Daredevil hallway fight, but couldn't quite pull it off. I side with some of the other takes that this episode felt a bit rushed.
It's almost as if there was an episode missing between the finale and the previous episode. At the end of the last episode, Joel drops all of his affect-less persona after saving Ellie. At the beginning of this episode, he's chatty and joking and Ellie is the one who is distant. On paper, this seems like a good move, essentially they have switched roles. But it just didn't feel organic to me.
But let's step back and marvel for a moment: here we are debating the interpretation of a narrative and portrayal of characters that originated from a video game!
posted by jeremias at 5:41 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
At least for me, it also felt like a criticism of video game violence, in a way.
It read so much to me like a mass shooting/high school shooting that any subtext about video games passed me by.
I was not prepared for this. I did not see things getting this dark. I had hoped that "Look for the Light" meant the show was going to continue to find good in people and their situation, even as they live in a hellscape.
I'm so tired of bleak TV. I thought this show - as dark as it could be - was pretty positive about humanity. And while I heard Mazin talking about how he wanted to explore how far someone would go to protect the person they loved, I didn't think it would be this. Not this cold. Not this calculated.
I sat there at the end of watching this completely numb. I'm a crier and I couldn't cry. Watching Joel turn into a complete sociopath in the name of "love" made me sick to my stomach.
Did it feel rushed? I don't know. I'm not sure there's more that could have been said or done to set this up. I think all the pieces are there and yet... this didn't read like a father saving a daughter, it read like a mass shooter feeling like the only power he had was to murder people in cold blood.
And to what end? What are we saying here? Probably that he should have sacrificed Ellie to save the world. But he didn't. So the subtext is that love/obsession is dangerous. Fucking bleak, man.
Chernobyl was cheerier. And least that was just about the failure of process and procedure.
posted by crossoverman at 7:54 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
It read so much to me like a mass shooting/high school shooting that any subtext about video games passed me by.
I was not prepared for this. I did not see things getting this dark. I had hoped that "Look for the Light" meant the show was going to continue to find good in people and their situation, even as they live in a hellscape.
I'm so tired of bleak TV. I thought this show - as dark as it could be - was pretty positive about humanity. And while I heard Mazin talking about how he wanted to explore how far someone would go to protect the person they loved, I didn't think it would be this. Not this cold. Not this calculated.
I sat there at the end of watching this completely numb. I'm a crier and I couldn't cry. Watching Joel turn into a complete sociopath in the name of "love" made me sick to my stomach.
Did it feel rushed? I don't know. I'm not sure there's more that could have been said or done to set this up. I think all the pieces are there and yet... this didn't read like a father saving a daughter, it read like a mass shooter feeling like the only power he had was to murder people in cold blood.
And to what end? What are we saying here? Probably that he should have sacrificed Ellie to save the world. But he didn't. So the subtext is that love/obsession is dangerous. Fucking bleak, man.
Chernobyl was cheerier. And least that was just about the failure of process and procedure.
posted by crossoverman at 7:54 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Thinking about it some more, the ending and even the entire season feels like a very specific type of story. That story wasn't masterfully told per se, though obviously pretty good. But it does a really fascinating job of telling the story in a specific way that maybe isn't realistic, but one that feels real, due to the various narrative choices and the obvious chemistry of Bella and Pedro.
Because if you think about it, there's no way that Ellie and Joel should have arrived at the hospital with any illusions about what was going to happen. They knew she was immune. Joel knew cordyceps was in the brain. They had plenty of time, plenty of talks that gradually became more serious and intimate. Somewhere in all of that time, Ellie would have wondered what would happen at the hospital and Joel would have quickly guessed what could happen.
Sure, they might not have known exactly what would happen. They may have been able to talk themselves into thinking it would just be a some blood tests or something, sure. But it's doubtful that Joel, with that level of feeling, would have actually have taken Ellie to the hospital where, at the very least, she'd probably be experimented on. he would have fought that.
Yeah, maybe Ellie could have convinced him to keep going, but there's no way either of them should have arrived at the hospital and not had an idea of what was going. And there's no way that Marlene, who shot Ellie's mother, her very best friend, would have let Joel live for very long. Maybe she was exhausted and traumatized, but there's just no way she would let him wake up in anything other than cell, giving him the barest of chances to let Ellie go. But at the slightest hint of Joel going, well, JOEL, she would have ordered him killed.
So yeah, I think the finale we were shown isn't how it would have actually gone down.
That doesn't mean the finale was bad. Just an interesting narrative choice, one of several possible choices. Sort of like an Everything Everywhere All At Once For The Last Of Us.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:17 PM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Because if you think about it, there's no way that Ellie and Joel should have arrived at the hospital with any illusions about what was going to happen. They knew she was immune. Joel knew cordyceps was in the brain. They had plenty of time, plenty of talks that gradually became more serious and intimate. Somewhere in all of that time, Ellie would have wondered what would happen at the hospital and Joel would have quickly guessed what could happen.
Sure, they might not have known exactly what would happen. They may have been able to talk themselves into thinking it would just be a some blood tests or something, sure. But it's doubtful that Joel, with that level of feeling, would have actually have taken Ellie to the hospital where, at the very least, she'd probably be experimented on. he would have fought that.
Yeah, maybe Ellie could have convinced him to keep going, but there's no way either of them should have arrived at the hospital and not had an idea of what was going. And there's no way that Marlene, who shot Ellie's mother, her very best friend, would have let Joel live for very long. Maybe she was exhausted and traumatized, but there's just no way she would let him wake up in anything other than cell, giving him the barest of chances to let Ellie go. But at the slightest hint of Joel going, well, JOEL, she would have ordered him killed.
So yeah, I think the finale we were shown isn't how it would have actually gone down.
That doesn't mean the finale was bad. Just an interesting narrative choice, one of several possible choices. Sort of like an Everything Everywhere All At Once For The Last Of Us.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:17 PM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
At the beginning of this episode, he's chatty and joking and Ellie is the one who is distant. On paper, this seems like a good move, essentially they have switched roles.
This was so notable, and I couldn't figure out what it signified. I'm assuming that Marlene told Ellie her full origin story and that Ellie was mulling it over as this episode began. But what was the reason for Ellie's aloofness toward Joel, pretty much up until she spotted the giraffe?
Ellie had craved family, or a parent, since the beginning of the show. Was it that Joel had finally opened up to her, and that reality had set her back on her heels, and she was thinking back to the idea of her birth mother (whom she couldn't remember obviously) while contemplating what it would actually mean to accept someone as a parent? Was it that she was afraid to take that step, because everyone else she had ever loved, she had lost? Back at the commune, she had practically begged Joel to fill this role. I was confused by her ambivalence at best, rejection at worst, through the first part of this episode... and also wasn't clear on what changed her mind.
posted by torticat at 10:49 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
This was so notable, and I couldn't figure out what it signified. I'm assuming that Marlene told Ellie her full origin story and that Ellie was mulling it over as this episode began. But what was the reason for Ellie's aloofness toward Joel, pretty much up until she spotted the giraffe?
Ellie had craved family, or a parent, since the beginning of the show. Was it that Joel had finally opened up to her, and that reality had set her back on her heels, and she was thinking back to the idea of her birth mother (whom she couldn't remember obviously) while contemplating what it would actually mean to accept someone as a parent? Was it that she was afraid to take that step, because everyone else she had ever loved, she had lost? Back at the commune, she had practically begged Joel to fill this role. I was confused by her ambivalence at best, rejection at worst, through the first part of this episode... and also wasn't clear on what changed her mind.
posted by torticat at 10:49 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it was super clear; she just narrowly escaped sexual assault and cleavered a man to death in a burning building. That lost her something, probably permanently, but won her the affection and warmth of a man she’s been craving it from for months. And who she is now about to be separated from, quite possibly by death. Girl’s probably straight up dissociating. His panicked joviality was a pretty great reaction too. It’s possible at this point she’s having doubts about the path she has enthusiastically pursued, heroic, sacrificial, probable death, so she’s ruminating on her mother’s heroic, sacrificial death.
posted by Iteki at 11:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 11:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [27 favorites]
We don't let children consent to suicide, even when they firmly believe (as depressed teens so often do) that everybody else in the world would be better off as a result. And Ellie is a kid. She's been through a lot of shit, she's killed people and seen horrors and almost been raped, but that just makes her a traumatized child, not an adult. Her brain's still a decade away from growing a prefrontal cortex, an executive function, and a sense of proportion. If she eventually finds out Joel lied to her as an adult, then she can make an adult choice.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 12:26 AM on March 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 12:26 AM on March 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
So takeaways for me:
1. How did Marlene lose Ellie to Boston FEDRA?
2. How old did that doctor look? Was he old enough to be a doctor before the world ended? What kind of medicine has he been practicing since then?
posted by oldnumberseven at 2:41 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
1. How did Marlene lose Ellie to Boston FEDRA?
2. How old did that doctor look? Was he old enough to be a doctor before the world ended? What kind of medicine has he been practicing since then?
posted by oldnumberseven at 2:41 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Overall, a very good series, I thought, though it could have benefitted from HBO granting it a little more time. Either longer episodes or a longer run would have avoided some of the rushed developments people have noted above and could also have been used to finesse away the characters' sometimes unlikely behaviour.
It certainly surpassed my exceptions for what can be done with either a video-game adaption or a zombie saga. In particular, the writers managed to find a lot of intelligent new angles on the zombie apocalypse narrative, which were also quite adult in their concerns. It reminds me of The Expanse in a way - a heartening example of what good writers can do with what's generally a pretty dopey and cliched science fiction or fantasy setting.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:39 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
It certainly surpassed my exceptions for what can be done with either a video-game adaption or a zombie saga. In particular, the writers managed to find a lot of intelligent new angles on the zombie apocalypse narrative, which were also quite adult in their concerns. It reminds me of The Expanse in a way - a heartening example of what good writers can do with what's generally a pretty dopey and cliched science fiction or fantasy setting.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:39 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
We don't let children consent to suicide, even when they firmly believe (as depressed teens so often do) that everybody else in the world would be better off as a result. And Ellie is a kid.
Bears repeating. Ellie doesn't have any more agency than any other child. Joel lies to her because that's exactly what parents (even surrogate ones) will do to protect their children (even foster ones) from danger and death, if lies are required.
If Joel is evil then so is Ellie's mother for giving her newborn away to protect Ellie, which would be a pretty extreme and ridiculous position to have to take, just to remain ethically consistent.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:49 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Bears repeating. Ellie doesn't have any more agency than any other child. Joel lies to her because that's exactly what parents (even surrogate ones) will do to protect their children (even foster ones) from danger and death, if lies are required.
If Joel is evil then so is Ellie's mother for giving her newborn away to protect Ellie, which would be a pretty extreme and ridiculous position to have to take, just to remain ethically consistent.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:49 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
This New Yorker review of the final episode includes a description of the other closing shot Mazin considered. It would have made HBO happy, but considerably softened the scene's impact.
posted by Paul Slade at 5:04 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Paul Slade at 5:04 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've just rewatched the pre-titles scene and confirmed my recollection that Ellie's mom actually cut the umbilical cord after she'd been bitten (and the creature was already dead). The lie she told Marlene about it being before was her only way of saving the baby's life. Any theories about Ellie's immunity need to start with how the scene actually played out.
posted by Paul Slade at 5:28 AM on March 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 5:28 AM on March 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
It did not occur to me until I saw them both in the same episode but wow does Bella Ramsey look like she could be Ashley Johnson’s daughter.
Yeah, for a good long chunk of that flashback I was wondering if they'd aged up Bella, like we had a jump in time until things settled down enough that I went ... wait, is that Ashley Johnson? Well played, Druckman.
posted by Kyol at 6:20 AM on March 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, for a good long chunk of that flashback I was wondering if they'd aged up Bella, like we had a jump in time until things settled down enough that I went ... wait, is that Ashley Johnson? Well played, Druckman.
posted by Kyol at 6:20 AM on March 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
How did Marlene lose Ellie to Boston FEDRA?
In episode 1, doesn’t Marlene tell Ellie that she was the one who placed her in the Boston FEDRA school, to keep her safe?
posted by ejs at 8:08 AM on March 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
In episode 1, doesn’t Marlene tell Ellie that she was the one who placed her in the Boston FEDRA school, to keep her safe?
posted by ejs at 8:08 AM on March 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yes, Marlene says that to her, then adds "what I'm about to tell you can't be repeated to anyone" and (we can assume) tells her (but not us) of the circumstances of Ellie's birth.
posted by mediareport at 8:28 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mediareport at 8:28 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's so much missing from the story that would have been great to have. That New Yorker review linked above is pretty good, but gives the show a pass by mentioning "the show’s travelogue structure," which I'd just call far too choppy storytelling.
In the after-episode bit, Craig Mazin calls the complexity of video game and especially its ending "the most beautiful story told in the entire genre of video games" and says "it's why I wanted to make the show in the first place."
I just wish they'd delivered better on that complexity, especially its ending, in this rushed, too-brief finale. I'm assuming they followed the end of the game closely, so I'd say they had a chance to improve on the apparently simplistic story in the game, as they did with Bill and Frank, but then decided not to take it.
posted by mediareport at 8:38 AM on March 14, 2023
In the after-episode bit, Craig Mazin calls the complexity of video game and especially its ending "the most beautiful story told in the entire genre of video games" and says "it's why I wanted to make the show in the first place."
I just wish they'd delivered better on that complexity, especially its ending, in this rushed, too-brief finale. I'm assuming they followed the end of the game closely, so I'd say they had a chance to improve on the apparently simplistic story in the game, as they did with Bill and Frank, but then decided not to take it.
posted by mediareport at 8:38 AM on March 14, 2023
Maybe she was exhausted and traumatized, but there's just no way she would let him wake up in anything other than cell, giving him the barest of chances to let Ellie go. But at the slightest hint of Joel going, well, JOEL, she would have ordered him killed.
Yeah, it was necessary for the plot that Joel have a full understanding of what was about to happen and that he have some ability to take action to stop it. But it defied all plausibility that Marlene would stand there and tell someone she knows is incredibly dangerous: "Oh, hey, we're about to kill your surrogate daughter. Here is a token to remember her by, not please GTFO."
Even if she didn't want to kill him, surely she could have kept him sedated or even just put him back outside before he regained consciousness.
That'd all be a lot less interesting, but would certainly be more plausible.
posted by asnider at 8:54 AM on March 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it was necessary for the plot that Joel have a full understanding of what was about to happen and that he have some ability to take action to stop it. But it defied all plausibility that Marlene would stand there and tell someone she knows is incredibly dangerous: "Oh, hey, we're about to kill your surrogate daughter. Here is a token to remember her by, not please GTFO."
Even if she didn't want to kill him, surely she could have kept him sedated or even just put him back outside before he regained consciousness.
That'd all be a lot less interesting, but would certainly be more plausible.
posted by asnider at 8:54 AM on March 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
This New Yorker review of the final episode includes a description of the other closing shot Mazin considered. It would have made HBO happy, but considerably softened the scene's impact.
Archive link for the New Yorker.
posted by ellieBOA at 9:01 AM on March 14, 2023
Archive link for the New Yorker.
posted by ellieBOA at 9:01 AM on March 14, 2023
Both of us felt the entire season was lacking and are unlikely to watch the next season. My other half describes it as "why didn't they advertise it as an anthology series?" while I describe it as "seemed like a video game at times, when you don't have context or are perplexed by the character's motivation but you always know the mission." [Have not played the game/not interested/not trying to discuss the game.]
The very best parts of the season for me: The emotional connections. Bill and Frank's long-term marriage and planned deaths. Joel squeezing blood-covered Ellie and finally seeing her as a daughter to protect, not just a package to deliver. Ellie's mother having the wherewithal to love her newborn child a minute after fending off a monster. That's... about it.
Other random thoughts about the season overall:
Grateful to the show runners for playing music over Joel's shooting rampage in the hospital. What an utter waste of Melanie Lynskey's acting skills. Why didn't they show us Joel and Tess's early relationship? The whole episode with Ellie and her friend in the mall felt forced, way too long, and relied on too many horror movie tropes to forgive the writers. Those giraffes would've been steaks years ago. Who TF would voluntarily eat canned food sitting in an RV on black asphalt for 20 years--especially with no antibiotics readily available? Speaking of questionable writing decisions: Why did characters choose to go into cities so often, when the danger of hidden bad guys is so ubiquitous and predictable? Bill and Frank's episode was perfection, no notes.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 9:15 AM on March 14, 2023
The very best parts of the season for me: The emotional connections. Bill and Frank's long-term marriage and planned deaths. Joel squeezing blood-covered Ellie and finally seeing her as a daughter to protect, not just a package to deliver. Ellie's mother having the wherewithal to love her newborn child a minute after fending off a monster. That's... about it.
Other random thoughts about the season overall:
Grateful to the show runners for playing music over Joel's shooting rampage in the hospital. What an utter waste of Melanie Lynskey's acting skills. Why didn't they show us Joel and Tess's early relationship? The whole episode with Ellie and her friend in the mall felt forced, way too long, and relied on too many horror movie tropes to forgive the writers. Those giraffes would've been steaks years ago. Who TF would voluntarily eat canned food sitting in an RV on black asphalt for 20 years--especially with no antibiotics readily available? Speaking of questionable writing decisions: Why did characters choose to go into cities so often, when the danger of hidden bad guys is so ubiquitous and predictable? Bill and Frank's episode was perfection, no notes.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 9:15 AM on March 14, 2023
I think it was super clear; she just narrowly escaped sexual assault and cleavered a man to death in a burning building.
Thank you, Iteki. I sort of binged the show over the past week, and the attacks and violence all ran together in my mind. Also the attempted rape made me so angry that I think I wrote it out of my head canon! You're right, this is an obvious explanation; your other comments about Joel's reaction and about Ellie's contemplation of her own distant past and immediate future are very good, too.
posted by torticat at 12:41 PM on March 14, 2023
Thank you, Iteki. I sort of binged the show over the past week, and the attacks and violence all ran together in my mind. Also the attempted rape made me so angry that I think I wrote it out of my head canon! You're right, this is an obvious explanation; your other comments about Joel's reaction and about Ellie's contemplation of her own distant past and immediate future are very good, too.
posted by torticat at 12:41 PM on March 14, 2023
I was really curious going into this episode how they would handle this part of the story. In the video game, there are two sets of actions you can take: sneak and fight. So, in order to give the-player-as-Joel possible action to take at the end of the story to show his connection to Ellie, the game gives you a path that involves fighting (aka killing) a bunch of fireflies to demonstrate his love for Ellie. I haven't ever been sure how literal the body count is, beyond the point that at the end of a video game you usually have to do more of what you've done in the lead-up to the finale. So, I thought it was interesting that they leaned into a high body count and made sure to show Joel killing someone who had set aside their weapon in the hospital. Having seen all of that, I was genuinely surprised that he let the nurses live.
I have some complaints about the need to create urgency by having the fireflies cut straight to an irreversible action for their research. I can see the argument that because of their panic to fix the broken world they wanted to act immediately, but it still feels more geared toward creating a ticking clock for Joel than realism. In contrast, how different might Joel's actions be read if Marlene had simply tried to send him away with no Ellie and no clear indication that she was going to imminently die under the knife? This is the same in the game as the show, but I think it's more noticeable as a plot device in the show, unfortunately.
Overall, I still think the moral dilemma of what the situation is fascinating and heart-breaking. What would you do as Joel to save someone you love as family? What is worth doing to try to restore the world? Is there a point to trying to restore the world to what it was, or are those who were alive previously simply tied to an old way of thinking? At what point does someone have the agency to chose to sacrifice themself, especially if they've been raised in a way that encouraged them to not value their own life? Are we as humanity worth saving if we're willing to kill a child in order to "better" the world? Big questions that encourage discussion and disagreement, which I am very glad they were able to capture in this adaption.
posted by past unusual at 1:52 PM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have some complaints about the need to create urgency by having the fireflies cut straight to an irreversible action for their research. I can see the argument that because of their panic to fix the broken world they wanted to act immediately, but it still feels more geared toward creating a ticking clock for Joel than realism. In contrast, how different might Joel's actions be read if Marlene had simply tried to send him away with no Ellie and no clear indication that she was going to imminently die under the knife? This is the same in the game as the show, but I think it's more noticeable as a plot device in the show, unfortunately.
Overall, I still think the moral dilemma of what the situation is fascinating and heart-breaking. What would you do as Joel to save someone you love as family? What is worth doing to try to restore the world? Is there a point to trying to restore the world to what it was, or are those who were alive previously simply tied to an old way of thinking? At what point does someone have the agency to chose to sacrifice themself, especially if they've been raised in a way that encouraged them to not value their own life? Are we as humanity worth saving if we're willing to kill a child in order to "better" the world? Big questions that encourage discussion and disagreement, which I am very glad they were able to capture in this adaption.
posted by past unusual at 1:52 PM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
No problem torticat, I've only spent ten years thinking about it (kidding, kinda, the intro today was new for everyone). Long story short I have, as a superfan, really enjoyed this version of this story. I am fully onboard for more, while of course bringing the same anxiety as for this, that they not change the parts that make it so resonant to me as a queer woman in gaming. I don't think the second game can be done in less than two seasons and that might be tight.
posted by Iteki at 2:03 PM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Iteki at 2:03 PM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hey folks this is the show-only thread. If you want to talk about the game try here. I've written a couple of long posts comparing the game to the TV show there, as have others.
posted by Nelson at 6:57 PM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 6:57 PM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like I should say, all the people he killed were knowing conspirators in the murder of a child. Everything he did was consistent with the actions of someone who woke up from a beating to be told by his captors that they were about to kill his adopted child, believing (wrongly as far as he knows) that the quasi religious sacrifice will save all humanity. From one religious cult to another.
That’s how I interpreted it as I was watching and if the makers intended me to see things differently and consider whether Joel was wrong to try and prevent the murder, I guess it didn’t work for me.
posted by chill at 6:34 AM on March 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
That’s how I interpreted it as I was watching and if the makers intended me to see things differently and consider whether Joel was wrong to try and prevent the murder, I guess it didn’t work for me.
posted by chill at 6:34 AM on March 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, did Ellie just teleport out of her mother?! I think my wife would probably have gone with the “distracted by a mushroom zombie” child birth option if it was available on the NHS as it sure looked a lot less stressful than actual childbirth (YMMV).
posted by chill at 6:35 AM on March 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by chill at 6:35 AM on March 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
The way I read Ellie and Joel's final exchange was that while she knew he was lying, she wasn't really asking about that. She was asking so she could read on his face if it was a worthwhile lie, if it was a lie that should be allowed to stand.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:44 AM on March 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:44 AM on March 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
all the people he killed were knowing conspirators in the murder
Unlikely. If you rampaged through a modern corporation's building, killing every random person you met along the way (including the receptionist, the cleaners and the interns) would they all have been knowing conspirators in whatever the corporation's board was doing? Many of the low-level grunts Joel executed would have had no more say in their organisation's policy decisions than those slaughtered interns.
posted by Paul Slade at 7:15 AM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unlikely. If you rampaged through a modern corporation's building, killing every random person you met along the way (including the receptionist, the cleaners and the interns) would they all have been knowing conspirators in whatever the corporation's board was doing? Many of the low-level grunts Joel executed would have had no more say in their organisation's policy decisions than those slaughtered interns.
posted by Paul Slade at 7:15 AM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, did Ellie just teleport out of her mother?! I think my wife would probably have gone with the “distracted by a mushroom zombie” child birth option if it was available on the NHS as it sure looked a lot less stressful than actual childbirth (YMMV).
Beats an epidural by the looks of it; I think my wife would have gone for it too.
And while her name has been mentioned here, in case other "show only" folks like me were unaware of Ashley Johnson's (from Critical Role, Blindspot, and a small role in the Avengers, amongst a lot of other things) role in the franchise - she did the voice for Bella in the game.
posted by nubs at 7:25 AM on March 15, 2023
Beats an epidural by the looks of it; I think my wife would have gone for it too.
And while her name has been mentioned here, in case other "show only" folks like me were unaware of Ashley Johnson's (from Critical Role, Blindspot, and a small role in the Avengers, amongst a lot of other things) role in the franchise - she did the voice for Bella in the game.
posted by nubs at 7:25 AM on March 15, 2023
Unlikely. If you rampaged through a modern corporation's building, killing every random person you met along the way (including the receptionist, the cleaners and the interns) would they all have been knowing conspirators in whatever the corporation's board was doing? Many of the low-level grunts Joel executed would have had no more say in their organisation's policy decisions than those slaughtered interns.
It feels like the number of murders is not something worth Joel agonizing over, once he decides he's going to rescue Ellie. As a group, the fireflies are clearly accustomed to violence. Most of the people Joel kills are armed! And the others, one could argue, are easily able to summon somebody with a gun to make the rescue plan a whole lot more complicated. The only person who might've been swayed by Joel's "let's not kill the teenager" plan and had the power to do something about it was Marlene. She didn't bite, so I'm not sure why Joel would try to negotiate his way through the minions. The show wants us to believe that he did monstrous things to get to Ellie in time (and intellectually I can agree with Marlene's trolley problem math), but they didn't make me feel it. If anything, by having the countdown clock of deadly brain surgery about to occur, they made Joel's brutally effective rampage seem completely necessary.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:24 AM on March 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
It feels like the number of murders is not something worth Joel agonizing over, once he decides he's going to rescue Ellie. As a group, the fireflies are clearly accustomed to violence. Most of the people Joel kills are armed! And the others, one could argue, are easily able to summon somebody with a gun to make the rescue plan a whole lot more complicated. The only person who might've been swayed by Joel's "let's not kill the teenager" plan and had the power to do something about it was Marlene. She didn't bite, so I'm not sure why Joel would try to negotiate his way through the minions. The show wants us to believe that he did monstrous things to get to Ellie in time (and intellectually I can agree with Marlene's trolley problem math), but they didn't make me feel it. If anything, by having the countdown clock of deadly brain surgery about to occur, they made Joel's brutally effective rampage seem completely necessary.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:24 AM on March 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Slate's reviewer did not like the finale at all: The Last of Us Finale Nearly Wrecks Everything the Show Has Accomplished
posted by mediareport at 9:53 AM on March 15, 2023
posted by mediareport at 9:53 AM on March 15, 2023
The Guardian’s reviewer loved it: The Last of Us finale recap – what a brutal, sadistic triumph of television
posted by ellieBOA at 9:57 AM on March 15, 2023
posted by ellieBOA at 9:57 AM on March 15, 2023
Unlikely. If you rampaged through a modern corporation's building, killing every random person you met along the way (including the receptionist, the cleaners and the interns) would they all have been knowing conspirators in whatever the corporation's board was doing?
But it's not a corporation, it's a bunch of people who have bought in to the organization's ethos in some way and been accepted by the organization. These aren't just people who got a job and are collecting a salary- the Fireflies are selective. It's not even likely that any old Firefly would get to be part of the hospital enclave- you'd think these people, most of who were armed- were the cream of the crop.
At any rate, if we're talking about things in the episode that made no sense- why would they need such a large amount of Ellie's brain that she would not survive the procedure? If they can replicate whatever they need to replicate, they can do it from a small amount.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:28 PM on March 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
But it's not a corporation, it's a bunch of people who have bought in to the organization's ethos in some way and been accepted by the organization. These aren't just people who got a job and are collecting a salary- the Fireflies are selective. It's not even likely that any old Firefly would get to be part of the hospital enclave- you'd think these people, most of who were armed- were the cream of the crop.
At any rate, if we're talking about things in the episode that made no sense- why would they need such a large amount of Ellie's brain that she would not survive the procedure? If they can replicate whatever they need to replicate, they can do it from a small amount.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:28 PM on March 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Slate's reviewer did not like the finale at all: The Last of Us Finale Nearly Wrecks Everything the Show Has Accomplished
The reviewer seems to make the same mistake some viewers are making by claiming Joel is acting selfishly: not saving Ellie to protect her, but just to protect his raw feelings. I'm not a parent, but I think even I would know that what Joel did would be a no-brainer to any parent having to either decide to protect their child (even one who is adopted under stressful circumstances) or walk away and let them die.
The degree to which the relationship changed from custodial to parental over the season was telegraphed plainly and directly at the end of the penultimate episode, where he hugs her, covered in blood, and calls her "baby girl". It seems an odd blind spot to ignore the entirety of the season, focusing in only on what was presented in the last twenty minutes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:30 PM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
The reviewer seems to make the same mistake some viewers are making by claiming Joel is acting selfishly: not saving Ellie to protect her, but just to protect his raw feelings. I'm not a parent, but I think even I would know that what Joel did would be a no-brainer to any parent having to either decide to protect their child (even one who is adopted under stressful circumstances) or walk away and let them die.
The degree to which the relationship changed from custodial to parental over the season was telegraphed plainly and directly at the end of the penultimate episode, where he hugs her, covered in blood, and calls her "baby girl". It seems an odd blind spot to ignore the entirety of the season, focusing in only on what was presented in the last twenty minutes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:30 PM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I just couldn't look past the forced setup. Joel and Ellie are captured. Marlene intends to kill Ellie for the greater good. It doesn't sound like Ellie woke from the flash-bang grenade before being sedated for surgery. She knows Joel is a stone-cold killer. The only reason for Marlene to let Joel live is because the plot requires it so that Joel can escape and rescue Ellie. Killing two people for the greater good isn't much different than killing one.
Maybe they let Ellie decide. She decides she wants to live (which would be a surprising choice but I bet Bella could sella it). Marlene tries to force her to have surgery. Joel saves her that way.
posted by kokaku at 2:23 PM on March 15, 2023
Maybe they let Ellie decide. She decides she wants to live (which would be a surprising choice but I bet Bella could sella it). Marlene tries to force her to have surgery. Joel saves her that way.
posted by kokaku at 2:23 PM on March 15, 2023
Any debate about right and wrong after that just feels like a way to make up for or justify/rationalize a clumsy setup.
posted by kokaku at 2:25 PM on March 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 2:25 PM on March 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
The reviewer seems to make the same mistake some viewers are making by claiming Joel is acting selfishly: not saving Ellie to protect her, but just to protect his raw feelings.
I think it can be both. But it's definitely not solely about his own feelings. He feels that he failed one daughter. He's not going to let it happen again. It's as much about his own trauma as it is about literally saving Ellie's life.
The fact that he lied about it is certainly not, as the author suggests, proof that he didn't do it for her. I'm pretty sure that if, by some unlikely turn of events, I was compelled to murder dozens of people to save my child, I would also concoct some lie both for my own self-image but also to not traumatize the very person I was trying to protect with the image of their father as a brutal murderer. (Yes, Ellie knows Joel is a killer and has/will kill to protect her, but this specific circumstance is very different and one that she might not be OK with if she knew the truth; if she does suspect the truth, perhaps she's even knowingly accepting the lie for the same reason Joel told it: to not ruin her image of her adopted father figure.)
posted by asnider at 3:40 PM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it can be both. But it's definitely not solely about his own feelings. He feels that he failed one daughter. He's not going to let it happen again. It's as much about his own trauma as it is about literally saving Ellie's life.
The fact that he lied about it is certainly not, as the author suggests, proof that he didn't do it for her. I'm pretty sure that if, by some unlikely turn of events, I was compelled to murder dozens of people to save my child, I would also concoct some lie both for my own self-image but also to not traumatize the very person I was trying to protect with the image of their father as a brutal murderer. (Yes, Ellie knows Joel is a killer and has/will kill to protect her, but this specific circumstance is very different and one that she might not be OK with if she knew the truth; if she does suspect the truth, perhaps she's even knowingly accepting the lie for the same reason Joel told it: to not ruin her image of her adopted father figure.)
posted by asnider at 3:40 PM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Any debate about right and wrong after that just feels like a way to make up for or justify/rationalize a clumsy setup.
Yep.
Here's my alt idea of how things could have gone:
The doctor becomes more prominent. He's the one who's ready and willing to kill Ellie to get to her brain parts. Marlene doesn't want to that. She's emotionally spent, from the years killing and it all comes to this, killing her best friend's daughter, who she promised to look after, in order to save humanity. She's not ready to go that route just yet.
So she asks Ellie if she's ok with this. Perhaps a backstory about Marlene and Ellie's mom, their friendship. Marlene repeatedly makes it clear she doesn't want Ellie to die, but the scales are so high, she's going to ask her to sacrifice herself. Doctor is always in background, saying let's go, let's do it, this is too important to leave up to Ellie.
Joel is locked away in a room in the makeshift and falling apart hospital.
Ellie, after hearing what Marlene is asking, agrees, but asks to see Joel, to talk to him. He, of course, says no. He begs her not to do, pointing out the shitty science and how uncertain it all is. This makes Ellie pause and she asks for clarification from Marlene and the doctor. Of course the doctor insists it'll work out, then it's possible. Sure, it make take time to scale up, but once we show that it works on a few people, then surely the world would come around right? Everyone will work together once they see the cure works and all he needs is Ellie, whom he is pointedly explaining this too. Marlene comes around also at this point and pushes Ellie to help save the work. Ellie agrees. Joel is in anguish. Perhaps a nurse asks the doctor in a private scene whether it'll really work and only then he admits that's its iffy, but it's the best choice they have.
In his rage and anguish, Joel rips something from the walk, say a sink, which puts water on the floors and then puts some loose electric wires on the floor to kill all the guards in the room, while he he stands on a rubber mat or something. He was a contractor, right? He knows some shit. Yes, I stole this idea from Watchmen, sue me.
Then he frees himself, goes on a rampage and kills everyone, just as we saw in the show.
Ellie wakes, asks questions, Joel lies and everything proceeds as we saw.
This takes place over two short episodes or one long one.
Druckmann, where you at, hire me!!!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:45 PM on March 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yep.
Here's my alt idea of how things could have gone:
The doctor becomes more prominent. He's the one who's ready and willing to kill Ellie to get to her brain parts. Marlene doesn't want to that. She's emotionally spent, from the years killing and it all comes to this, killing her best friend's daughter, who she promised to look after, in order to save humanity. She's not ready to go that route just yet.
So she asks Ellie if she's ok with this. Perhaps a backstory about Marlene and Ellie's mom, their friendship. Marlene repeatedly makes it clear she doesn't want Ellie to die, but the scales are so high, she's going to ask her to sacrifice herself. Doctor is always in background, saying let's go, let's do it, this is too important to leave up to Ellie.
Joel is locked away in a room in the makeshift and falling apart hospital.
Ellie, after hearing what Marlene is asking, agrees, but asks to see Joel, to talk to him. He, of course, says no. He begs her not to do, pointing out the shitty science and how uncertain it all is. This makes Ellie pause and she asks for clarification from Marlene and the doctor. Of course the doctor insists it'll work out, then it's possible. Sure, it make take time to scale up, but once we show that it works on a few people, then surely the world would come around right? Everyone will work together once they see the cure works and all he needs is Ellie, whom he is pointedly explaining this too. Marlene comes around also at this point and pushes Ellie to help save the work. Ellie agrees. Joel is in anguish. Perhaps a nurse asks the doctor in a private scene whether it'll really work and only then he admits that's its iffy, but it's the best choice they have.
In his rage and anguish, Joel rips something from the walk, say a sink, which puts water on the floors and then puts some loose electric wires on the floor to kill all the guards in the room, while he he stands on a rubber mat or something. He was a contractor, right? He knows some shit. Yes, I stole this idea from Watchmen, sue me.
Then he frees himself, goes on a rampage and kills everyone, just as we saw in the show.
Ellie wakes, asks questions, Joel lies and everything proceeds as we saw.
This takes place over two short episodes or one long one.
Druckmann, where you at, hire me!!!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:45 PM on March 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
He only needed the one lie: the hospital was attacked and almost everyone died.
Okay maybe more lies if Ellie asks follow-up questions, but she hardly seems the type.
posted by Acari at 6:40 PM on March 15, 2023
Okay maybe more lies if Ellie asks follow-up questions, but she hardly seems the type.
posted by Acari at 6:40 PM on March 15, 2023
No, the lie about "the cure doesn't work and there are lots of immune already" is also necessary. Ellie has to stop trying to save the world/make all the deaths meaningful/refuse to settle down at Tommytown. It's not enough to keep her alive today, he needs her to stop risking her life permanently.
posted by Mogur at 6:11 AM on March 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 6:11 AM on March 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
One thing mentioned on the podcast thatI found interesting, considering the discussion here, is that they polled all the play testers on whether they thought Joel did the right thing at the end. They said that for those who didn’t have kids it was 50/50, but for those with kids 100% said he did the right thing.
posted by antinomia at 3:22 PM on March 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by antinomia at 3:22 PM on March 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's confirmed: 'The Last of Us Part II' will span multiple seasons of TV [Mashable, no game spoilers]
posted by ellieBOA at 6:30 AM on March 17, 2023
posted by ellieBOA at 6:30 AM on March 17, 2023
Note: in the link below, there are some references to plot differences compared to the game, so if you don't want to know about that, probably avoid that, as I'll include the medical stuff without those elements in a blockquote below. The objections doctors had over the viability of the "harvest her brain, save the world" plan were interesting to me, even as someone who knows zip about the game.
Medical Residents Are in an Uproar Over the 'Ethics' of The Last of Us Finale
Here are some of the relevant bits, without game plot points:
Medical Residents Are in an Uproar Over the 'Ethics' of The Last of Us Finale
Here are some of the relevant bits, without game plot points:
“After watching the Last of Us finale did anyone else do the math that the doctor performing the surgery was probably a resident when cordyceps took over? Like he’s not more than 50 so he was no more than 30,” posted one user on the r/Residency subreddit.posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:55 AM on March 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
“Also is it ethical to perform a nonsurvival surgery on a minor to save mankind from cordyceps?” the self-proclaimed anesthesia resident continued. “And why not a spinal tap and see if it grows cordyceps and use that for your vaccine?”
Most of the comments on the original post pointed out the glaringly obvious medical malpractice in the finale. Common concerns included: the lack of evidence in the show that Firefly scientists could successfully cultivate Cordyceps from a sample, the absence of any medical imaging, like a CT scan, to confirm their theory, and the failure to biopsy Ellie first, before attempting a highly risky procedure that would likely end her life.
Multiple users lamented that the Firefly doctors hadn’t tried a spinal tap to collect cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) from Ellie, from which they could try to grow Cordyceps, and make a vaccine from there. One user has a “PGY3” flair on their profile, seemingly meaning that they are a year-three post-grad, or medical resident.
“I think the most important step is to identify the compound and receptor that cordyceps uses to tell self from non-self,” they wrote. “I would be surprised if the compound isn’t in her CSF (it may even be in her blood, given how quickly the infection was stopped when she got bitten.)”
Several people worried about the handling of Ellie’s anesthesia and her subsequent lack of ventilation once Joel picked her up.
“My wife told me to shut up when I said where’s the tube,” wrote the original poster.
“I actually yelled ‘I HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT HER AIRWAY,’” wrote another.
Plenty of comments were tongue-in-cheek, acknowledging the absurdity of the situation. “Clearly the smartest thing to do is to immediately kill the test subject without any tests :)” wrote one exasperated user.
“But of all medical professions left in the world, there’d just happen to be a pediatric neurosurgeon around. Literally the rarest Pokémon.” This, unfortunately, soon becomes apparent: Joel may have killed one of the only people left with this specific skillset.
“And he’s gonna do the procedure on Ellie without a head CT and MRI prior to?” they continued. “Ours would want coags and reversal of any anticoagulants before even taking the consult.”
Honestly I didnt realize we were supposed to think Joel was in the wrong until I read that opinion online and here. To me, it came across as, here are some crazy people who did zero testing and just want to murder Ellie five minutes after meeting her on a wild theory that almost definitely will not work. If we were supposed to take away that this would definitely work and save the world, I missed that.
I think it's interesting that 100% of parents polled would have done what Joel did. I'm not a parent but if I were... no way would I let my child be sacrificed on some Hail Mary play that (as presented in the show) had a microscopic chance of working.
Note, I havent played the game so IDK if there, the science was presented as more certain.
posted by silverstatue at 9:29 AM on March 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think it's interesting that 100% of parents polled would have done what Joel did. I'm not a parent but if I were... no way would I let my child be sacrificed on some Hail Mary play that (as presented in the show) had a microscopic chance of working.
Note, I havent played the game so IDK if there, the science was presented as more certain.
posted by silverstatue at 9:29 AM on March 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
OneGearIsEnough, you might like Years and Years
posted by glaucon at 9:52 AM on March 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by glaucon at 9:52 AM on March 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Honestly I didnt realize we were supposed to think Joel was in the wrong until I read that opinion online and here. To me, it came across as, here are some crazy people who did zero testing and just want to murder Ellie five minutes after meeting her on a wild theory that almost definitely will not work. If we were supposed to take away that this would definitely work and save the world, I missed that.
Absolutely. If this was the message we were supposed to have gotten, it was not successfully transmitted.
It would have been easy enough to have Marlene explain that they've tested her blood and her spinal fluid and there's nothing in there. So it has to be in her brain. And we'd love to tell you we have a pediatric neurosurgeon with all the best tools on-call, but the world as we knew it ended 20 years ago and all we have is someone who was studying to be one decades ago and with the tools he has, once he gets her skull open, we won't have a reliable way to close her back up. So we get one shot to get the tissue to try and make the cure and yeah, she's gonna die when we go in to get it.
Easy peasy. Just wrote that speech for you, Craig Mazin.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:29 AM on March 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Absolutely. If this was the message we were supposed to have gotten, it was not successfully transmitted.
It would have been easy enough to have Marlene explain that they've tested her blood and her spinal fluid and there's nothing in there. So it has to be in her brain. And we'd love to tell you we have a pediatric neurosurgeon with all the best tools on-call, but the world as we knew it ended 20 years ago and all we have is someone who was studying to be one decades ago and with the tools he has, once he gets her skull open, we won't have a reliable way to close her back up. So we get one shot to get the tissue to try and make the cure and yeah, she's gonna die when we go in to get it.
Easy peasy. Just wrote that speech for you, Craig Mazin.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:29 AM on March 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm extrapolating that we're supposed to think Joel did something wrong by the relentless extra commentary from the show creators about people doing terrible things for love or whatever, but yeah the finale did not convince me either.
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:34 AM on March 17, 2023
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:34 AM on March 17, 2023
Way late to the party -- I was traveling, and held off on watching until I was back -- but I think the analysis of Marlene's actions is missing something important.
We have to remember that she knows Joel only from Boston. Yes, she knows his potential for violence-- but she also knows him as a pure mercenary, someone who does a job to get paid. Someone who sees Ellie as nothing but cargo. She hasn't seen him in months and knows nothing of his transformation and the bond he has with Ellie.
Look at it that way, and her decision to have her team show him out is more defensible. Sure, he's hot about it, but the Joel she knows would walk away.
That said, I'm going back and forth on the other two plot developments, the sketchiness of the medical team and their "plan," and the massacre (because that's what it is). I note the comment above: "Any debate about right and wrong after that just feels like a way to make up for or justify/rationalize a clumsy setup." I get that, but I think that's looking at it backward. The dilemma of right and wrong, ends and means, one vs. the many, and what we do for the people we love is what this whole story comes down to. That comes first, so much so that the setup, however clumsy, almost doesn't matter.
Yes, like a lot of people I'd have preferred more setup around the choice -- the outlines by BB and DOT above would do just fine -- and a scene between Marlene and Joel arguing it out, and then maybe he feigns acceptance to set up his play. That would be better. But in the end it has to come down to Joel choosing to save the person who saved him, and how far he'd go.
Which takes us to the massacre. I was deeply uncomfortable with it -- I've lost friends in a mass shooting, and I've run active shooter drills with little kids -- and that's the point. It HAD to be excessive, appallingly so. It's about how Joel would choose to kill anyone for Ellie. I credit the show for handling the sequence in probably the best way it could - depicting the extent of the carnage but doing it relatively quickly, no superhero moves or glorification. Simply knowing that to save this girl he would kill anyone -- and remember, these are, in general, the good guys, not Kathleen's murderers or Pedophile Preacher and the cannibals -- is all we need to know.
At least, that's where I am now. I'm going to rewatch it today and think some more. Apologies for the ramble, but my wife has no interest and I've got to talk it out with someone.
posted by martin q blank at 6:55 AM on March 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
We have to remember that she knows Joel only from Boston. Yes, she knows his potential for violence-- but she also knows him as a pure mercenary, someone who does a job to get paid. Someone who sees Ellie as nothing but cargo. She hasn't seen him in months and knows nothing of his transformation and the bond he has with Ellie.
Look at it that way, and her decision to have her team show him out is more defensible. Sure, he's hot about it, but the Joel she knows would walk away.
That said, I'm going back and forth on the other two plot developments, the sketchiness of the medical team and their "plan," and the massacre (because that's what it is). I note the comment above: "Any debate about right and wrong after that just feels like a way to make up for or justify/rationalize a clumsy setup." I get that, but I think that's looking at it backward. The dilemma of right and wrong, ends and means, one vs. the many, and what we do for the people we love is what this whole story comes down to. That comes first, so much so that the setup, however clumsy, almost doesn't matter.
Yes, like a lot of people I'd have preferred more setup around the choice -- the outlines by BB and DOT above would do just fine -- and a scene between Marlene and Joel arguing it out, and then maybe he feigns acceptance to set up his play. That would be better. But in the end it has to come down to Joel choosing to save the person who saved him, and how far he'd go.
Which takes us to the massacre. I was deeply uncomfortable with it -- I've lost friends in a mass shooting, and I've run active shooter drills with little kids -- and that's the point. It HAD to be excessive, appallingly so. It's about how Joel would choose to kill anyone for Ellie. I credit the show for handling the sequence in probably the best way it could - depicting the extent of the carnage but doing it relatively quickly, no superhero moves or glorification. Simply knowing that to save this girl he would kill anyone -- and remember, these are, in general, the good guys, not Kathleen's murderers or Pedophile Preacher and the cannibals -- is all we need to know.
At least, that's where I am now. I'm going to rewatch it today and think some more. Apologies for the ramble, but my wife has no interest and I've got to talk it out with someone.
posted by martin q blank at 6:55 AM on March 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
If anyone is looking for a slightly offbeat recommendation for another show, I've recently started watching the 2015 Syfy series 12 Monkeys (based on a recommendation I read elsewhere on Fanfare), and it reminds me a lot of The Last of Us in setting and theme.
It's basically The Last of Us with time travel. Or even more specifically, it's The Last of Us if Joel, instead of escorting the sole immune person, were tasked with going back in time to collaborate with a preeminent immunologist (basically Dr. Fauci but as a leading lady) to prevent the pandemic from ever happening in the first place.
It's a Syfy series, so go in with low expectations as far as budget etc., but it's good fun.
posted by Syllepsis at 11:13 PM on April 8, 2023
It's basically The Last of Us with time travel. Or even more specifically, it's The Last of Us if Joel, instead of escorting the sole immune person, were tasked with going back in time to collaborate with a preeminent immunologist (basically Dr. Fauci but as a leading lady) to prevent the pandemic from ever happening in the first place.
It's a Syfy series, so go in with low expectations as far as budget etc., but it's good fun.
posted by Syllepsis at 11:13 PM on April 8, 2023
As a fifty-ish Chilean dad I feel seen. Pedro Pascal is my new spiritual guru.
posted by signal at 5:16 PM on May 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 5:16 PM on May 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
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Because bitter, smart ass, always testing authority Ellie absolutely would have chosen to sacrifice herself. She could have taken time, said goodbyes, and come to terms with the choice she made and gone to her grave, believing it was the right thing to do.
Marlene and Joel stole that from her. Ellie may not forgive Joel for that.
She knows Joel is lying, obviously. And it breaks her, because she opened up to him about killing Riley and she's offering him a chance to do the same. To come clean, to admit an awful truth. She may have forgiven if he had done that. Not at first probably, but in the end, as she headed off to find some other Fireflies, some other doctor, she would have, in time. She would have understood why he made that choice, if even she didn't agree with it.
What an utterly fantastic show. It's blown me away but how much it's made people the big bad. A comparison to The Walk Dead is unavoidable, but The Last Of Us did it so much better, in the end. Cannibalistic child groomers aside, the sheer and yet understandable horror of what grief stricken Joel would do, the choice he'd made, is such a fantastic "twist".
We thought he was the hero of the story and in many ways he was. But we've reached a point where all the cracks in that hero are shown and we're left wondering if he should even be called a hero at all. Yet we understand why he did. *chef's kiss* Neil Druckmann.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:43 PM on March 12, 2023 [18 favorites]