Star Trek: Picard: Vox
April 13, 2023 4:44 AM - Season 3, Episode 9 - Subscribe
When the Starfleet armada is compromised, Picard and his crew must take a page from the Adama playbook. Meanwhile, Jack links.
Vox populi, vox Memoria Alpha:
• Irumodic syndrome was established in the anti-time timeline of TNG's series finale, "All Good Things…" (FF previously), and mentioned (though not by name) in the PIC season 1 episode "Maps and Legends" (FF previously).
• Among the vessels at Frontier Day are the U.S.S. Pulaski and the U.S.S. Forrest, presumably named after ENT character Maxwell Forrest.
• The NX-01, referenced by Admiral Shelby, is the titular vessel of Star Trek: Enterprise.
• Alice Krige (the voice of the Borg Queen) originated the role; this is her second comeback as the Borg Queen, after the Voyager series finale "Endgame." The subsequent Borg Queen performers were Susanna Thompson and the late Annie Wersching.
"I've always known the world was imperfect. Broken systems, wars, suffering, violence, poverty, bigotry. And I always thought if people couild only see each other, hear each other, speak in one voice, act in one mind together… Who knew a little cybernetic authoritarianism was the answer?"
- Jack
"He inherited the best of you, and the worst of me."
- Jean-Luc, about Jack
"Data, could you try to be a little more positive?"
"…I hope we die quickly!"
- Geordi and Data
Poster's Log:
Hey, wow, a well-lit bridge!
Ya know, I've made the Prime Directive joke w/r/t Veridian III in past viewings of Generations' final scenes—and as a result, I buy the explanation Geordi provides about how he pulled this off.
Poster's Log, Supplemental:
Memory Alpha does not quite yet confirm that the Enterprise-F is "Odyssey-class," but it sure looks a loooot like Star Trek Online's Odyssey (Memory Beta link). Good on them!
Vox populi, vox Memoria Alpha:
• Irumodic syndrome was established in the anti-time timeline of TNG's series finale, "All Good Things…" (FF previously), and mentioned (though not by name) in the PIC season 1 episode "Maps and Legends" (FF previously).
• Among the vessels at Frontier Day are the U.S.S. Pulaski and the U.S.S. Forrest, presumably named after ENT character Maxwell Forrest.
• The NX-01, referenced by Admiral Shelby, is the titular vessel of Star Trek: Enterprise.
• Alice Krige (the voice of the Borg Queen) originated the role; this is her second comeback as the Borg Queen, after the Voyager series finale "Endgame." The subsequent Borg Queen performers were Susanna Thompson and the late Annie Wersching.
"I've always known the world was imperfect. Broken systems, wars, suffering, violence, poverty, bigotry. And I always thought if people couild only see each other, hear each other, speak in one voice, act in one mind together… Who knew a little cybernetic authoritarianism was the answer?"
- Jack
"He inherited the best of you, and the worst of me."
- Jean-Luc, about Jack
"Data, could you try to be a little more positive?"
"…I hope we die quickly!"
- Geordi and Data
Poster's Log:
Hey, wow, a well-lit bridge!
Ya know, I've made the Prime Directive joke w/r/t Veridian III in past viewings of Generations' final scenes—and as a result, I buy the explanation Geordi provides about how he pulled this off.
Poster's Log, Supplemental:
Memory Alpha does not quite yet confirm that the Enterprise-F is "Odyssey-class," but it sure looks a loooot like Star Trek Online's Odyssey (Memory Beta link). Good on them!
I'm pretty bummed that they killed off Shaw, but I suspected that it was going to happen after last week.
I'm also a little disappointed that the Big!!! Mystery!!! ended up being the really obvious thing that was the first thing everyone guessed way back at the start -- but I suppose that it couldn't have been anything else. The reason lots of people guessed it was that it made sense, and I'm not a fan of twists that come out of nowhere. I did enjoy some of the specific details -- like the changelings using the transporters to add the trojan Borg code (rather than to directly aid their infiltration), the paired components in Jack and in Picard's brain, and the trojan not affecting anyone over a certain age. This reveal probably suffered from being hyped up and dragged out so much -- it all joins up, but it's just not surprising enough to be rewarding after that kind of buildup.
I have to say that my nostalgia meter is now full, and I don't need any more nostalgia, thank you. The near-fourth-wall-breaking dialogue back on the Enterprise, and the way they contrived to put only the original TNG crew in position to save the world next week (with everyone else zombified, killed or stranded on a hostile ship) was a bit much. I disliked how disconnected the previous seasons felt from the previous canon, but they've really overshot that mid-season-3 sweet spot of old and new characters interacting in fun ways that set up a lot of potential for a spin-off.
I did, however, greatly enjoy Data's "positivity".
Jack's plan seemed a bit underdeveloped. What did he think was going to happen?
Prediction for next week: Picard speedruns the rest of fatherhood so that he can appeal to Jack's humanity and convince him at the last minute not to eat the world. Someone who really really never wants to return to the franchise ever again dies, or maybe multiple someones.
posted by confluency at 5:27 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm also a little disappointed that the Big!!! Mystery!!! ended up being the really obvious thing that was the first thing everyone guessed way back at the start -- but I suppose that it couldn't have been anything else. The reason lots of people guessed it was that it made sense, and I'm not a fan of twists that come out of nowhere. I did enjoy some of the specific details -- like the changelings using the transporters to add the trojan Borg code (rather than to directly aid their infiltration), the paired components in Jack and in Picard's brain, and the trojan not affecting anyone over a certain age. This reveal probably suffered from being hyped up and dragged out so much -- it all joins up, but it's just not surprising enough to be rewarding after that kind of buildup.
I have to say that my nostalgia meter is now full, and I don't need any more nostalgia, thank you. The near-fourth-wall-breaking dialogue back on the Enterprise, and the way they contrived to put only the original TNG crew in position to save the world next week (with everyone else zombified, killed or stranded on a hostile ship) was a bit much. I disliked how disconnected the previous seasons felt from the previous canon, but they've really overshot that mid-season-3 sweet spot of old and new characters interacting in fun ways that set up a lot of potential for a spin-off.
I did, however, greatly enjoy Data's "positivity".
Jack's plan seemed a bit underdeveloped. What did he think was going to happen?
Prediction for next week: Picard speedruns the rest of fatherhood so that he can appeal to Jack's humanity and convince him at the last minute not to eat the world. Someone who really really never wants to return to the franchise ever again dies, or maybe multiple someones.
posted by confluency at 5:27 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, I agree that the Borg reveal in this season (which in isolation was actually a pretty good idea) was weakened by the Borg being revisited to death in the two previous seasons, and particularly in the timey-wimey S2 plot.
posted by confluency at 5:29 AM on April 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by confluency at 5:29 AM on April 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not a lot I liked here:
-the reveal is too little given how much time we took to get here and how much of Picards post trauma with the Borg we've already done;
-the idea of the networked fleet is just horrible and obviously a bad idea; I was hoping Shelby would be revealed to be a Changeling because I couldn't buy her being in charge of such an effort;
-don't trust anyone under 25 feels a little OK, boomer;
-why would the new Borg fleet need to target Spacedock, surely Picards DNA is in the transporters there too;
-the whole fleet takeover involved a bit too much of "hey, something bad is going on! You there, stop that! Argh!", including cringey voice-overs of the Borg talking to themselves about how the fleet was now under their control and what to do next;
-they killed Shaw, who was the only really interesting new character this season, though there has been little enough for him to do the past few episodes;
-I kind of feel like the Data/Lore showdown last week has given away the game as far as what happens in the finale...which will wind up being close to what happened in S2.
posted by nubs at 5:40 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
-the reveal is too little given how much time we took to get here and how much of Picards post trauma with the Borg we've already done;
-the idea of the networked fleet is just horrible and obviously a bad idea; I was hoping Shelby would be revealed to be a Changeling because I couldn't buy her being in charge of such an effort;
-don't trust anyone under 25 feels a little OK, boomer;
-why would the new Borg fleet need to target Spacedock, surely Picards DNA is in the transporters there too;
-the whole fleet takeover involved a bit too much of "hey, something bad is going on! You there, stop that! Argh!", including cringey voice-overs of the Borg talking to themselves about how the fleet was now under their control and what to do next;
-they killed Shaw, who was the only really interesting new character this season, though there has been little enough for him to do the past few episodes;
-I kind of feel like the Data/Lore showdown last week has given away the game as far as what happens in the finale...which will wind up being close to what happened in S2.
posted by nubs at 5:40 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
That was... Too much.
Since when is infiltration part of the Borg’s modus operandi? Why are they so intent on assimilating Starfleet when they can just go off and assimilate a different quadrant of the galaxy? Why would the Borg have a personal vendetta about anything? And what possible motivation would the Changelings have to cooperate with the Borg when the inevitable outcome is for them to be assimilated, too?
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:45 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Since when is infiltration part of the Borg’s modus operandi? Why are they so intent on assimilating Starfleet when they can just go off and assimilate a different quadrant of the galaxy? Why would the Borg have a personal vendetta about anything? And what possible motivation would the Changelings have to cooperate with the Borg when the inevitable outcome is for them to be assimilated, too?
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:45 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
From my perspective, the seasons have all been linked and building up to this conclusion. The Borg have always been the greatest enemy to Starfleet because Starfleet and the Federation are built on different people coming together, bringing their unique qualities to exploration and peace. The Borg inflicts its will and strips away individuality. And like it or not, but "The Best of Both Worlds" represents one of the peak storylines and episodes for TNG, and definitely for Picard's character. It's not surprising that the series based around him is going to draw heavily upon the Borg. I've got a headache at the moment, but I'm sure there's something that can plucked out of how each season focused on the Borg to draw better connectivity.
And I guess, unlike some, I didn't have the impression the Borg was being hammered repeatedly at me while viewing the show. Probably if I hadn't been reading comments here, I would've been quite a bit more surprised actually. Thanks, Fanfare. Heh.
I was disappointed with Shaw's death, but I knew someone was going to die and welp, he took one so one of our original Enterprise crew could live one more episode at least. I had looked forward to the idea of a Shaw captained tv show, but there's always Captain Seven of Nine.
The generational gap was somewhat silly, but it was a loophole I'm fine with to keep the D-crew in fighting form. Speaking of which, I love the idea of Geordi La Forge quietly restoring the Enterprise D for the museum fleet. At the same time, this is up there with Luke's X-wing somehow being still flight worthy after being dunked in an ocean for a few years just so Rey could fly it to Exegol. Granted, La Forge's restoration work is a lot more credible. I'm just gonna go with it.
The Enterprise F or whatever, is well, not my style of starship. I'll just leave it at that. Pour one out for Shelby. I am severely disappointed that I didn't see the Cerritos out there somewhere, granted, I hope Lower Decks references this in some way and has a flashback of the command crew hiding in a room from our ensigns and lieutenants.
why would the new Borg fleet need to target Spacedock, surely Picards DNA is in the transporters there too;
I'm guessing this falls into the idea that the Borg don't see it as useful for assimilation, so destroy it as a barrier to assimilation. I would also expect that once the federation is defeated, it'd scrap the starfleet armada, too.
When all this is said done, there's going to be a lot of young folk bumped up into command positions.
posted by Atreides at 7:50 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
And I guess, unlike some, I didn't have the impression the Borg was being hammered repeatedly at me while viewing the show. Probably if I hadn't been reading comments here, I would've been quite a bit more surprised actually. Thanks, Fanfare. Heh.
I was disappointed with Shaw's death, but I knew someone was going to die and welp, he took one so one of our original Enterprise crew could live one more episode at least. I had looked forward to the idea of a Shaw captained tv show, but there's always Captain Seven of Nine.
The generational gap was somewhat silly, but it was a loophole I'm fine with to keep the D-crew in fighting form. Speaking of which, I love the idea of Geordi La Forge quietly restoring the Enterprise D for the museum fleet. At the same time, this is up there with Luke's X-wing somehow being still flight worthy after being dunked in an ocean for a few years just so Rey could fly it to Exegol. Granted, La Forge's restoration work is a lot more credible. I'm just gonna go with it.
The Enterprise F or whatever, is well, not my style of starship. I'll just leave it at that. Pour one out for Shelby. I am severely disappointed that I didn't see the Cerritos out there somewhere, granted, I hope Lower Decks references this in some way and has a flashback of the command crew hiding in a room from our ensigns and lieutenants.
why would the new Borg fleet need to target Spacedock, surely Picards DNA is in the transporters there too;
I'm guessing this falls into the idea that the Borg don't see it as useful for assimilation, so destroy it as a barrier to assimilation. I would also expect that once the federation is defeated, it'd scrap the starfleet armada, too.
When all this is said done, there's going to be a lot of young folk bumped up into command positions.
posted by Atreides at 7:50 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Of all the callback cameos we’ve seen this season, I thought reusing Majel Barrett’s vocal track from decades ago was the most affecting.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:58 AM on April 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:58 AM on April 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
I was hoping it was an old recording. Somehow, even though it makes more sense in terms of it's recreating a computer voice, I would find it upsetting if they just did some AI thing to recreate her voice for that line.
posted by Atreides at 8:08 AM on April 13, 2023
posted by Atreides at 8:08 AM on April 13, 2023
The audio description is positive that the 1701-F is Odyssey-class.
posted by channaher at 8:12 AM on April 13, 2023
posted by channaher at 8:12 AM on April 13, 2023
I was hoping it was an old recording.
It's audio from "Chain of Command II", when Jellico returns control of the E-D to Picard. (At this writing, Memory Alpha doesn't appear to have picked that up)
I'm underwhelmed with this one. This episode, more than most of the others in this season, really REALLY leaned on "tell, don't show". Lots of repeating dialog, lots of verbal lampshading of things we're already watching on screen... just frustrating writing choices there. Borg!Esmar saying out loud "Collective, we control the Titan" was possibly the most useless piece of dialog.
Happy to see Admiral Shelby. Not sure I like the design of the Enterprise-F, but I'm probably alone in that.
"No one has seen or heard from the Borg in over a decade"... did season 2 not happen at all?
posted by hanov3r at 8:20 AM on April 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's audio from "Chain of Command II", when Jellico returns control of the E-D to Picard. (At this writing, Memory Alpha doesn't appear to have picked that up)
I'm underwhelmed with this one. This episode, more than most of the others in this season, really REALLY leaned on "tell, don't show". Lots of repeating dialog, lots of verbal lampshading of things we're already watching on screen... just frustrating writing choices there. Borg!Esmar saying out loud "Collective, we control the Titan" was possibly the most useless piece of dialog.
Happy to see Admiral Shelby. Not sure I like the design of the Enterprise-F, but I'm probably alone in that.
"No one has seen or heard from the Borg in over a decade"... did season 2 not happen at all?
posted by hanov3r at 8:20 AM on April 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am severely disappointed that I didn't see the Cerritos out there somewhere, granted, I hope Lower Decks references this in some way and has a flashback of the command crew hiding in a room from our ensigns and lieutenants.
I think both Prodigy and Lower Decks happen shortly after Nemesis, about 20 years before Picard, back when Riker was an active-duty captain of the pre-refit Titan. If anything in Picard, we'd be more likely to see Mariner or Boimler as a captain in the fleet somewhere...
posted by Pryde at 8:27 AM on April 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think both Prodigy and Lower Decks happen shortly after Nemesis, about 20 years before Picard, back when Riker was an active-duty captain of the pre-refit Titan. If anything in Picard, we'd be more likely to see Mariner or Boimler as a captain in the fleet somewhere...
posted by Pryde at 8:27 AM on April 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Is bringing the D back fanservice? Yes.
Am I 1000% here for it? Yes.
This is MY Enterprise. The one I grew up with. The one whose bridge I got to stand on when I did Star Trek: The Experience in Vegas as a kid. This feels like homecoming, and I am here for it.
posted by SansPoint at 9:47 AM on April 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Am I 1000% here for it? Yes.
This is MY Enterprise. The one I grew up with. The one whose bridge I got to stand on when I did Star Trek: The Experience in Vegas as a kid. This feels like homecoming, and I am here for it.
posted by SansPoint at 9:47 AM on April 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Oh, I am loving the “don’t trust Generation Z - they’re too online” message of this episode. Way ahead of you, guys.
posted by Mr. Excellent at 10:01 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mr. Excellent at 10:01 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
If I could make a sweeping and wholly subjective generalization, Trek needs to have the freedom, if not the courage, to be boring — contemplative, weird, experimental, slow.
But why does the galaxy keep almost ending?
Why do so many contemporary seasons (and movies, no less) seem contractually bound to culminate in or revolve around a gigantic fleet battle against a conspiratorially-compromised section of Starfleet and/or a really big, often spiky ship, heralded by a loud and often red mystery box phenomenon that may or may not destroy entire planets?
I feel like Season 3 owes more to Nemesis and its approach to nostalgia than anything else — Picard's body is co-opted for nefarious purposes (transporter shenanigans, an evil clone) that inspire the good captain to contemplate the road not taken, then the Enterprise crew fights a really big and spiky ship (the Shrike, the Scimitar) under the control of an intriguing (but ultimately disposable) enthusiastic monologist (Vadic, Shinzon).
The Strange New Worlds team is doing their absolute damnedest to square Trek's earlier stylistic and tonal traditions with the shorter seasons and whiz-bang cinematic production design demands of the streaming era, I know that Lower Decks and Prodigy are following Short Treks into unexplored territory, and I'm certain that the franchise as a whole continues to be inspired by great love and enthusiasm for the material, but I'm just not sure I understand what the main thread is these days.
It's spectacular, to be sure, and it's undeniably Trek, but the sheer cyclical bombast and fanservice at play seem tuned for an audience I'd actually like to learn more about because I'm becoming increasingly aware that I'm not part of it. Which is totally okay, mind you — I'm genuinely curious about how modern Trek is made, and for whom!
posted by lumensimus at 10:08 AM on April 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
But why does the galaxy keep almost ending?
Why do so many contemporary seasons (and movies, no less) seem contractually bound to culminate in or revolve around a gigantic fleet battle against a conspiratorially-compromised section of Starfleet and/or a really big, often spiky ship, heralded by a loud and often red mystery box phenomenon that may or may not destroy entire planets?
I feel like Season 3 owes more to Nemesis and its approach to nostalgia than anything else — Picard's body is co-opted for nefarious purposes (transporter shenanigans, an evil clone) that inspire the good captain to contemplate the road not taken, then the Enterprise crew fights a really big and spiky ship (the Shrike, the Scimitar) under the control of an intriguing (but ultimately disposable) enthusiastic monologist (Vadic, Shinzon).
The Strange New Worlds team is doing their absolute damnedest to square Trek's earlier stylistic and tonal traditions with the shorter seasons and whiz-bang cinematic production design demands of the streaming era, I know that Lower Decks and Prodigy are following Short Treks into unexplored territory, and I'm certain that the franchise as a whole continues to be inspired by great love and enthusiasm for the material, but I'm just not sure I understand what the main thread is these days.
It's spectacular, to be sure, and it's undeniably Trek, but the sheer cyclical bombast and fanservice at play seem tuned for an audience I'd actually like to learn more about because I'm becoming increasingly aware that I'm not part of it. Which is totally okay, mind you — I'm genuinely curious about how modern Trek is made, and for whom!
posted by lumensimus at 10:08 AM on April 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
I was thinking about that same thing over coffee this morning, lumensimus, and the only thing I can think of is that a subset of TV writers/producers are locked into Game of Thronesy thinking; that is, everything must always be serialized toward a season-ending whopper of some sort. Writers in particular would find this (demonstrably successful) formula enchanting because it feels cinematic.
PIC and DISCO were in that subset and suffered for it, in no small part because the logic of Trek requires elements that don't always fit with the GoT formula. SNW, I hope, remains largely not, and I hope the trend is on its way out generally, but I don't watch enough shows right now to have a good feel for that. (And LOW pretty much doesn't count because it's not drama, and even when it skews serial, it can do so winkingly.)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:36 AM on April 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
PIC and DISCO were in that subset and suffered for it, in no small part because the logic of Trek requires elements that don't always fit with the GoT formula. SNW, I hope, remains largely not, and I hope the trend is on its way out generally, but I don't watch enough shows right now to have a good feel for that. (And LOW pretty much doesn't count because it's not drama, and even when it skews serial, it can do so winkingly.)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:36 AM on April 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Trek needs to have the freedom, if not the courage, to be boring — contemplative, weird, experimental, slow.
To me, Trek at its best is smart people coming together to solve complex situations with diverse knowledge, skills, and perspectives. Sometimes the solution is jury rigging a weird ass technical solution together. Sometimes it's about figuring out a new language or mode of communication. Sometimes its about hard moral choices. Only rarely should the problem be solved by blowing it up; it's satisfying when they do that, but I think in part because it's a rare solution. Even an episode like Yesterday's Enterprise, which shows us an Enterpise that is a batleship at war, the dilemma is about what to do with a ship and people who might better serve the universe by going back in time and dying; the battle sequence is about protecting the ship that has to go back, not about fighting the war. (It's TNGs version of TOS City on the Edge of Forever, which has no combat at all).
In general, the movies (after IV) and a lot of the newer Trek (I greatly enjoyed SNW for the most part) feel to me like they want to lean more into the action SF genre. Maybe that's what the audience wants now, but part of me was hoping this final season of Picard might get the old gang back together in a biege meeting room to come up with a solution that involved dialogue and science as a plan.
Instead, I suspect the finale will involve a lot of fighting and CGI stuff while Picard coaxes Vox to resist the Borg queen and assert his own control...which creates another Borg group like the one they already made last year. Or maybe Picard sacrifices himself and becomes Locutus again (he already has the synthetic body), with the same result. If I had any faith in this show doing something original, I would look forward to next week, but I suspect it's by the numbers from here with some more fanservice on top.
I'm left feeling the same way about this as I did about the announcement of 3 new Star Wars films about the Jedi last week - maybe it's time to let these franchises sit on the shelf for a while, or go do something completely unexpected and different (like Andor) with them.
Anyways, I'm doing a lot of grousing and will bow out now for others who are more excited/engaged with where this is going.
posted by nubs at 10:42 AM on April 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
To me, Trek at its best is smart people coming together to solve complex situations with diverse knowledge, skills, and perspectives. Sometimes the solution is jury rigging a weird ass technical solution together. Sometimes it's about figuring out a new language or mode of communication. Sometimes its about hard moral choices. Only rarely should the problem be solved by blowing it up; it's satisfying when they do that, but I think in part because it's a rare solution. Even an episode like Yesterday's Enterprise, which shows us an Enterpise that is a batleship at war, the dilemma is about what to do with a ship and people who might better serve the universe by going back in time and dying; the battle sequence is about protecting the ship that has to go back, not about fighting the war. (It's TNGs version of TOS City on the Edge of Forever, which has no combat at all).
In general, the movies (after IV) and a lot of the newer Trek (I greatly enjoyed SNW for the most part) feel to me like they want to lean more into the action SF genre. Maybe that's what the audience wants now, but part of me was hoping this final season of Picard might get the old gang back together in a biege meeting room to come up with a solution that involved dialogue and science as a plan.
Instead, I suspect the finale will involve a lot of fighting and CGI stuff while Picard coaxes Vox to resist the Borg queen and assert his own control...which creates another Borg group like the one they already made last year. Or maybe Picard sacrifices himself and becomes Locutus again (he already has the synthetic body), with the same result. If I had any faith in this show doing something original, I would look forward to next week, but I suspect it's by the numbers from here with some more fanservice on top.
I'm left feeling the same way about this as I did about the announcement of 3 new Star Wars films about the Jedi last week - maybe it's time to let these franchises sit on the shelf for a while, or go do something completely unexpected and different (like Andor) with them.
Anyways, I'm doing a lot of grousing and will bow out now for others who are more excited/engaged with where this is going.
posted by nubs at 10:42 AM on April 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
Excellent (or even decent) serialized television is extremely difficult to pull off, almost to the point of it being impossible unless you have one writer. Serialized television and a writers room just does not work. Television is not a 10-hour movie, it’s it own thing, and I’m glad there’s a backlash starting against this style of storytelling, because it is so often underwhelming and frustrating. I myself have basically stopped watching any new television that isn’t Star Trek because I am so incredibly frustrated at the overall state of the medium, and PIC season 3 is no exception.
I remain completely confused as to why the Borg and the rebel Changelings were working together to destroy the Federation. Sure, I can buy the Borg getting obsessed, why not. And I completely buy that there would be faction of changelings not on board with whatever Odo is doing with the Great Link. But them working together? For what purpose? Why? And what the hell was that thing in Vadic’s hand? And why did it take 9 episodes to get to this point?
The overall plot of this season is a complete mess, on par with season 2 (see opening paragraph above) and if it wasn’t for the TNG characters I wouldn’t give a single shit about any of it.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:48 AM on April 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I remain completely confused as to why the Borg and the rebel Changelings were working together to destroy the Federation. Sure, I can buy the Borg getting obsessed, why not. And I completely buy that there would be faction of changelings not on board with whatever Odo is doing with the Great Link. But them working together? For what purpose? Why? And what the hell was that thing in Vadic’s hand? And why did it take 9 episodes to get to this point?
The overall plot of this season is a complete mess, on par with season 2 (see opening paragraph above) and if it wasn’t for the TNG characters I wouldn’t give a single shit about any of it.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:48 AM on April 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Happy to see Admiral Shelby. Not sure I like the design of the Enterprise-F, but I'm probably alone in that.
I'm not a fan of the Enterprise-F. It's an awkward looking ship with nacelles that are too skinny drawing to a sharp point; the double sensor array is awkward, and so is putting the saucer section onto two stilts. That makes sense if you're trying to save material/time/money, but now you have two structural weaknesses, only two areas to go up and down to access the lower portion of the ship, and it just seems weird. ::exhales:: That is to say, if the Enterprise D ends up taking out the Enterprise F...I won't shed much of a tear.
Why do so many contemporary seasons (and movies, no less) seem contractually bound to culminate in or revolve around a gigantic fleet battle against a conspiratorially-compromised section of Starfleet and/or a really big, often spiky ship, heralded by a loud and often red mystery box phenomenon that may or may not destroy entire planets?
Prodigy actually concluded with a fleet of ships getting infected with a virus via ship to ship communication...from a red mystery box (okay, circular thingy inside the main ship). So this is kind of invading the animation side of things, too.
This might go back to "Best of Both Worlds" again which, and I know someone has a better memory than me, may have been one of the first multi-ship scenes to appear on Trek television? First Contact definitely had it. DS9 started off with it at Wolf, and then really doubled down once the Dominion War began, but there's definitely a subset (or large set?) of fans who love seeing fleets engaging with each other, with an enemy whatever. At the same time, a fleet engagement is really organized chaos on the screen unless carefully explained as things happen.
posted by Atreides at 10:49 AM on April 13, 2023
I'm not a fan of the Enterprise-F. It's an awkward looking ship with nacelles that are too skinny drawing to a sharp point; the double sensor array is awkward, and so is putting the saucer section onto two stilts. That makes sense if you're trying to save material/time/money, but now you have two structural weaknesses, only two areas to go up and down to access the lower portion of the ship, and it just seems weird. ::exhales:: That is to say, if the Enterprise D ends up taking out the Enterprise F...I won't shed much of a tear.
Why do so many contemporary seasons (and movies, no less) seem contractually bound to culminate in or revolve around a gigantic fleet battle against a conspiratorially-compromised section of Starfleet and/or a really big, often spiky ship, heralded by a loud and often red mystery box phenomenon that may or may not destroy entire planets?
Prodigy actually concluded with a fleet of ships getting infected with a virus via ship to ship communication...from a red mystery box (okay, circular thingy inside the main ship). So this is kind of invading the animation side of things, too.
This might go back to "Best of Both Worlds" again which, and I know someone has a better memory than me, may have been one of the first multi-ship scenes to appear on Trek television? First Contact definitely had it. DS9 started off with it at Wolf, and then really doubled down once the Dominion War began, but there's definitely a subset (or large set?) of fans who love seeing fleets engaging with each other, with an enemy whatever. At the same time, a fleet engagement is really organized chaos on the screen unless carefully explained as things happen.
posted by Atreides at 10:49 AM on April 13, 2023
Excellent (or even decent) serialized television is extremely difficult to pull off, almost to the point of it being impossible unless you have one writer. Serialized television and a writers room just does not work.
cf. Game of Thrones when they followed the novels vs. what happened when they ran out of novels.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:54 AM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
cf. Game of Thrones when they followed the novels vs. what happened when they ran out of novels.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:54 AM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
This was awful. I hated it. Absolutely fucking hated it. I have zero interest in watching next week's finale.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:05 AM on April 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:05 AM on April 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
one of the first multi-ship scenes to appear on Trek television
Depending on your definition of 'multi-ship', I'd say TOS: "The Ultimate Computer" is probably the first multi-ship scene, with the Enterprise taking on four other Constitution-class ships (Lexington, Excalibur, Potemkin, and Hood) in a mock battle.
posted by hanov3r at 11:34 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Depending on your definition of 'multi-ship', I'd say TOS: "The Ultimate Computer" is probably the first multi-ship scene, with the Enterprise taking on four other Constitution-class ships (Lexington, Excalibur, Potemkin, and Hood) in a mock battle.
posted by hanov3r at 11:34 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Prodigy actually concluded with a fleet of ships getting infected with a virus via ship to ship communication...from a red mystery box (okay, circular thingy inside the main ship). So this is kind of invading the animation side of things, too.
Ah! I fell off at the midseason break, and actually jumped ship from Lower Decks after I found "A Mathematically Perfect Redemption", like, blindsidingly upsetting? (There's probably an essay in that, especially given that "Veritas", only two episodes earlier, nearly brought me to good, heartening tears about the present and potential of Star Trek. Truly, Trek is a land of contrasts.)
So yeah! Serialized storytelling is hard, especially at this volume.
I will say that all media consumption is interpretive, so I'd highly recommend that everyone so inclined take a little time to grab some choice elements from whatever you happen to be watching and patch up your personal headcanon/continuing experience of Trek, as that kind of appreciation has always existed independently of any episode or series.
Write some criticism, revisit a favorite season, consider the siren call of fanfiction... maybe even check out Modiphius’ pretty exemplary tabletop RPG Star Trek Adventures? Goodness knows I have some stories I've been dying to tell!
posted by lumensimus at 11:48 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ah! I fell off at the midseason break, and actually jumped ship from Lower Decks after I found "A Mathematically Perfect Redemption", like, blindsidingly upsetting? (There's probably an essay in that, especially given that "Veritas", only two episodes earlier, nearly brought me to good, heartening tears about the present and potential of Star Trek. Truly, Trek is a land of contrasts.)
So yeah! Serialized storytelling is hard, especially at this volume.
I will say that all media consumption is interpretive, so I'd highly recommend that everyone so inclined take a little time to grab some choice elements from whatever you happen to be watching and patch up your personal headcanon/continuing experience of Trek, as that kind of appreciation has always existed independently of any episode or series.
Write some criticism, revisit a favorite season, consider the siren call of fanfiction... maybe even check out Modiphius’ pretty exemplary tabletop RPG Star Trek Adventures? Goodness knows I have some stories I've been dying to tell!
posted by lumensimus at 11:48 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
The on-screen episode title uses U+00F5: Võx.
posted by channaher at 12:39 PM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by channaher at 12:39 PM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The true enemy all along was the Portuguese.
posted by rhymedirective at 12:45 PM on April 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 12:45 PM on April 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
"No one has seen or heard from the Borg in over a decade"... did season 2 not happen at all?
Theory: Borg Civil War. The Agnes faction may be getting the upper hand, so the old-fashioned, more aggro faction may be teaming up with the similarly more aggro non-Great-Link faction of the changelings, since the one thing that they can agree on would be that they hate the Federation for disrupting their hegemonic plans. If Jack can somehow hook up with Agnes (so to speak), that may be their ticket to victory.
This was very much a putting-pieces-in-place-for-the-endgame episode, and I think that it was already pretty obvious that Jack was at least demi-Borged, so I don't have much to say about the ep itself; I've never been that nostalgic about the E-D, but it was nice to hear Majel's voice again.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:17 PM on April 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Theory: Borg Civil War. The Agnes faction may be getting the upper hand, so the old-fashioned, more aggro faction may be teaming up with the similarly more aggro non-Great-Link faction of the changelings, since the one thing that they can agree on would be that they hate the Federation for disrupting their hegemonic plans. If Jack can somehow hook up with Agnes (so to speak), that may be their ticket to victory.
This was very much a putting-pieces-in-place-for-the-endgame episode, and I think that it was already pretty obvious that Jack was at least demi-Borged, so I don't have much to say about the ep itself; I've never been that nostalgic about the E-D, but it was nice to hear Majel's voice again.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:17 PM on April 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
How big an idiot ball was thrown around to make that episode of #Picard work?
There's suspension of disbelief, and then there's 'Qualified Shuttle Pilot forgets everything' #Spacecamp levels of disbelief.
Strip away the shiny distraction of the Enterprise-D bridge set, and what do you have? We've spent years reprogramming a transporter to add a few letters to your DNA so you receive borg signals and be assimilated organically, nobody noticed, and at the same time you decided to network all your ships without any failsafe... let alone the idea that you brought EVERY FEDERATION SHIP (!!!!) to a single place? What, even those doing supply runs on the other side of the quadrant???
Sorry team #TNG, that was laughably bad. But hey, #shiny distraction.
posted by ewan at 3:39 PM on April 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
There's suspension of disbelief, and then there's 'Qualified Shuttle Pilot forgets everything' #Spacecamp levels of disbelief.
Strip away the shiny distraction of the Enterprise-D bridge set, and what do you have? We've spent years reprogramming a transporter to add a few letters to your DNA so you receive borg signals and be assimilated organically, nobody noticed, and at the same time you decided to network all your ships without any failsafe... let alone the idea that you brought EVERY FEDERATION SHIP (!!!!) to a single place? What, even those doing supply runs on the other side of the quadrant???
Sorry team #TNG, that was laughably bad. But hey, #shiny distraction.
posted by ewan at 3:39 PM on April 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
That was neat idea executed badly.
Which begs whether Jack is reverse-immaculate; Beverly thought she wasn't able to get pregnant from age, is it possible Picard's "seed" picked up Beverly's DNA (as camouflage) and created it's own embryo without an actual egg from Bev?
But the Borg had no guarantee that Picard would have contraception-free PIV intercourse with someone.
Not buying transporters can edit in some Borg genetic material, much less that it had been undetected.
The Borg/ Changeling conspiracy that pushed for networking all Federation ships together feels like creating an "ecosystem" that's favourable for Borg use.
Bringing back the D was a little too romantic, bordering on jejune.
At least we got "I hope we die quickly!" from Data. I'm going to need to find a gif of that for personal use.
posted by porpoise at 6:08 PM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Which begs whether Jack is reverse-immaculate; Beverly thought she wasn't able to get pregnant from age, is it possible Picard's "seed" picked up Beverly's DNA (as camouflage) and created it's own embryo without an actual egg from Bev?
But the Borg had no guarantee that Picard would have contraception-free PIV intercourse with someone.
Not buying transporters can edit in some Borg genetic material, much less that it had been undetected.
The Borg/ Changeling conspiracy that pushed for networking all Federation ships together feels like creating an "ecosystem" that's favourable for Borg use.
Bringing back the D was a little too romantic, bordering on jejune.
At least we got "I hope we die quickly!" from Data. I'm going to need to find a gif of that for personal use.
posted by porpoise at 6:08 PM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not since Rise of Skywalker has a media property jumped a shark this hard. Shove anything new or interesting out an airlock in service to nostalgia and a decades-old status quo.
As discussed above, Prodigy did this exact storyline - and did it far better.
posted by FallibleHuman at 6:53 PM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
As discussed above, Prodigy did this exact storyline - and did it far better.
posted by FallibleHuman at 6:53 PM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Serialized television and a writers room just does not work.
Sure it does. Indeed, it makes the absolute best television. Breaking Bad, The Wire, Better Call Saul, The Sopranos, and many many more A++ shows had a writers room. But what they ALSO had was a talented show runner with a strong vision. Picard has had three show runners in three seasons, none of them all that good at the job.
I’m firmly in the “seeing Enterprise-D forgives a lot of sins” camp, but thus was just some TV, and horrible storytelling. ST:SNW can not get here fast enough.
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:17 PM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sure it does. Indeed, it makes the absolute best television. Breaking Bad, The Wire, Better Call Saul, The Sopranos, and many many more A++ shows had a writers room. But what they ALSO had was a talented show runner with a strong vision. Picard has had three show runners in three seasons, none of them all that good at the job.
I’m firmly in the “seeing Enterprise-D forgives a lot of sins” camp, but thus was just some TV, and horrible storytelling. ST:SNW can not get here fast enough.
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:17 PM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
CTRL+F “Battlestar”
They did the “all the fleet is vulnerable because of networked ships and only our old ship is safe” thing on Battlestar Galactica.
This episode was the most syrupy pandery nostalgia fan service.
Not since Rise of Skywalker has a media property jumped a shark this hard.
Somehow, the Borg returned.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:34 PM on April 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
They did the “all the fleet is vulnerable because of networked ships and only our old ship is safe” thing on Battlestar Galactica.
This episode was the most syrupy pandery nostalgia fan service.
Not since Rise of Skywalker has a media property jumped a shark this hard.
Somehow, the Borg returned.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:34 PM on April 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
Good lord this was grotesque. The 1701-D, really? And then so much silliness. We are told this ship is "analog". What, not even vacuum tubes doing digital logic instead of transistors? Is the ship's computer a slide rule? Also the ship is "not connected to the Starfleet mainframe". So is Starfleet running on a VAX-11/780 or something?
My apologies to anyone who is enjoying all this nostalgia porn. It just made me ill. "Make it so... engage". He said the line! The best parts of this season have been all the bonkers wackiness, like Captain "Asshole" Shaw or the scene-chewing Vadic or Worf as Zen warrior monk. This episode tells me this season is just everything I feared when I first heard the premise of "let's get the old gang together".
The one good thing about this show: it's millennials vs boomers. Fight! Lololololoo.
Jack's plan seemed a bit underdeveloped. What did he think was going to happen?
Completely stupid writing. How did he get off the ship? How did he find a shuttle? How did he get away without being trackable? Did no one even consider the risk he might run?
Remember Raffi? The writers barely did.
posted by Nelson at 8:05 PM on April 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
My apologies to anyone who is enjoying all this nostalgia porn. It just made me ill. "Make it so... engage". He said the line! The best parts of this season have been all the bonkers wackiness, like Captain "Asshole" Shaw or the scene-chewing Vadic or Worf as Zen warrior monk. This episode tells me this season is just everything I feared when I first heard the premise of "let's get the old gang together".
The one good thing about this show: it's millennials vs boomers. Fight! Lololololoo.
Jack's plan seemed a bit underdeveloped. What did he think was going to happen?
Completely stupid writing. How did he get off the ship? How did he find a shuttle? How did he get away without being trackable? Did no one even consider the risk he might run?
Remember Raffi? The writers barely did.
posted by Nelson at 8:05 PM on April 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
The writing on this show makes the Ramones look like total intellects.
posted by juiceCake at 8:28 PM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by juiceCake at 8:28 PM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Picard’s Massive Villain Return Actually Fixes A First Contact Plot Hole [SLInverse]
Throughout Picard Season 3, Vadic’s handler appeared as a mystery floating face, who some fans have dubbed “meathead.” We later learned this was not a Changeling at all. Although some fans might miss this detail, that floating face was, in fact, the Borg Queen all along. When directly asked the identity of the floating face that bossed around Vadic, Picard showrunner Terry Matalas told Inverse “That’s the Borg Queen.”Well, then.
This all reminds me of something. With the reveal a few episodes back of the apparently iconic USS New Jersey (Terry Matalas’ home state), it puts me in mind of the time that Bozeman, Montana became the site of first contact as well as the name of Dr. Frasier Crane’s ship... Bozeman was the hometown of a previous Trek showrunner. One who, when leaving Enterprise after its third season, decided to let the next guy write his way out of actual time-travelling space lizard Nazis.
Somehow, Braga has returned.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:47 PM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Last episode I told my spouse that the way to end Vadic and her plot was to kill Jack.
And then I spent the last week contemplating what that meant, what sort of person I was.
Turns out I was probably right? Or maybe I'm just the sort of player to fuck with the DM's plans? I'm sure Terry Matalas would hate me at his table (if he has one).
posted by fiercekitten at 8:48 PM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
And then I spent the last week contemplating what that meant, what sort of person I was.
Turns out I was probably right? Or maybe I'm just the sort of player to fuck with the DM's plans? I'm sure Terry Matalas would hate me at his table (if he has one).
posted by fiercekitten at 8:48 PM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The red lady, will that turn out to be Beverly Crusher? Will the newer, friendlier, Borg Queen save the day? I like this series, and I look forward to Thursdays. I didn't like seeing Shaw die. How will they debug all this, unless those automatic, space holes, are a part of the solution? I look forward to watching this series again.
posted by Oyéah at 8:59 PM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 8:59 PM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
How many more episodes? I like the fan service I guess, and I don't want to kink-shame, but I really never needed to hear about Picard's irummatio syndrome or his Borg robo-peen. Robo-gonads? He called it his "seed" which... gross. Especially considering how it got into all those under-25s, and we're just supposed to blame tiktok or whatever.
posted by surlyben at 9:15 PM on April 13, 2023
posted by surlyben at 9:15 PM on April 13, 2023
Calling semi-autonomous networked starship maneuvering "fleet formations" sure does leave decades of Attack Patterns Delta out in the cold, doesn't it?
posted by lumensimus at 9:35 PM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by lumensimus at 9:35 PM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Squirrelly Dan voice
Attacks patterns deltas
posted by sixswitch at 10:49 PM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Attacks patterns deltas
posted by sixswitch at 10:49 PM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
starting to feel like this show is resentful of how much it is pandering to TNG fans
forcing me to sit down and smoke the whole pack of nostalgia
posted by DoctorFedora at 10:52 PM on April 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
forcing me to sit down and smoke the whole pack of nostalgia
posted by DoctorFedora at 10:52 PM on April 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
“Not buying transporters can edit in some Borg genetic material, much less that it had been undetected.”
So, the idea is that because the overwhelming majority of genetic sequences are shared across all, um ... hold on ... humanoids, the transporter system just has a master copy of all the shared sequences instead of recording and recreating them for each individual teleport of each individual person. So the changelings just edited those sequences in the library to include their modifications.
This is only superficially plausible; someone heard about "99% shared DNA" or whatever and also knew a little bit about data compression and ran with it.
What makes this silly is that all the other data the transporter records, like, the composition and position of every molecule in a body, is so vastly larger, many orders of magnitudes larger, that the repeated DNA is nothing by comparison.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:53 PM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, the idea is that because the overwhelming majority of genetic sequences are shared across all, um ... hold on ... humanoids, the transporter system just has a master copy of all the shared sequences instead of recording and recreating them for each individual teleport of each individual person. So the changelings just edited those sequences in the library to include their modifications.
This is only superficially plausible; someone heard about "99% shared DNA" or whatever and also knew a little bit about data compression and ran with it.
What makes this silly is that all the other data the transporter records, like, the composition and position of every molecule in a body, is so vastly larger, many orders of magnitudes larger, that the repeated DNA is nothing by comparison.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:53 PM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
The more I think about this episode, the less I like it.
If they've really just killed everyone over the age of 25 aboard a Starfleet ship (not literally everyone, but a significant majority), then this is already an incredibly grim outcome that Our Heroes have failed to prevent (and which cannot be undone without a Voyager-style time travel deus ex machina, which would be a massive cop-out and which I really don't think is on the cards). Yeah, obviously they're going to get the fleet back in the next episode, and they're probably going to un-borgify the Youths, but can you imagine the psychological toll on all the survivors of this incident?
Cutting from this to the TNG crew cracking jokes about the carpeting in their old office gave me real tonal whiplash, and made the Enterprise-D reveal seem particularly hollow and kind of distasteful.
It feels as if the writers only care about a small core of legacy characters, rather than the continuation of the Star Trek world in this time period, which is what I care about and what I don't think I'm going to get. I don't think that they will adequately address the fallout of this human catastrophe, and I'm a lot less excited by the prospect of a new series set in the crapsack Starfleet that this finale is setting up.
While I don't think this is bad on the level of The Rise of Skywalker, I do recognise this disappointment as a fraction of what I felt while watching that movie, for a lot of the same reasons.
posted by confluency at 12:10 AM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
If they've really just killed everyone over the age of 25 aboard a Starfleet ship (not literally everyone, but a significant majority), then this is already an incredibly grim outcome that Our Heroes have failed to prevent (and which cannot be undone without a Voyager-style time travel deus ex machina, which would be a massive cop-out and which I really don't think is on the cards). Yeah, obviously they're going to get the fleet back in the next episode, and they're probably going to un-borgify the Youths, but can you imagine the psychological toll on all the survivors of this incident?
Cutting from this to the TNG crew cracking jokes about the carpeting in their old office gave me real tonal whiplash, and made the Enterprise-D reveal seem particularly hollow and kind of distasteful.
It feels as if the writers only care about a small core of legacy characters, rather than the continuation of the Star Trek world in this time period, which is what I care about and what I don't think I'm going to get. I don't think that they will adequately address the fallout of this human catastrophe, and I'm a lot less excited by the prospect of a new series set in the crapsack Starfleet that this finale is setting up.
While I don't think this is bad on the level of The Rise of Skywalker, I do recognise this disappointment as a fraction of what I felt while watching that movie, for a lot of the same reasons.
posted by confluency at 12:10 AM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
IdiotBall is Jack.
posted by Faintdreams at 3:14 AM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Faintdreams at 3:14 AM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
You know who I feel sorriest for in this whole scenario? Hallmark. Because next Frontier Day is going to be awkward as hell. All those greeting holograms? The commemorative plates? The Frontier Day holo-movies (An Imzadi for Frontier Day, The petaQ Who Saved Frontier Day, The Frontier Day that Almost Wasn't)? They're going to have to bury them in a huge holo-landfill of shame like the Atari ET Video Games.
My headcanon is that the whole brain-scrambling transporter thing was just an afterthought. The real decades-long Borg plan was to come up with a holiday that sounded like so much fun that the Federation would gladly do something tactically idiotic. I mean yes, "Frontier Day," and putting every sing ship you own in one place sounds stupid, but you should have heard about the stupid, dangerous holidays that didn't get picked up:
- Shield-Free Tuesdays
- Neutral Zone Friendship Days
- "Meet Your Mirror Universe Duplicate" Lunch-and-Learns
- Bring a Pakled to Ops Day
- "Guess the Command Code" Happy Hours
- Dress Like a Changeling Day
In fact, "Frontier Day," was originally called "The Put All Your Eggs in One Basket Challenge," until a Borg-assimilated PR guy came up with the name change.
posted by PlusDistance at 4:43 AM on April 14, 2023 [27 favorites]
My headcanon is that the whole brain-scrambling transporter thing was just an afterthought. The real decades-long Borg plan was to come up with a holiday that sounded like so much fun that the Federation would gladly do something tactically idiotic. I mean yes, "Frontier Day," and putting every sing ship you own in one place sounds stupid, but you should have heard about the stupid, dangerous holidays that didn't get picked up:
- Shield-Free Tuesdays
- Neutral Zone Friendship Days
- "Meet Your Mirror Universe Duplicate" Lunch-and-Learns
- Bring a Pakled to Ops Day
- "Guess the Command Code" Happy Hours
- Dress Like a Changeling Day
In fact, "Frontier Day," was originally called "The Put All Your Eggs in One Basket Challenge," until a Borg-assimilated PR guy came up with the name change.
posted by PlusDistance at 4:43 AM on April 14, 2023 [27 favorites]
So, in Episode 10, Laris is going to wake up from her dream and Jean Luc will be in the shower like nothing ever happened, right? RIGHT??!?!?!
posted by briank at 5:46 AM on April 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by briank at 5:46 AM on April 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
Of all the dumb shit in this episode: fireworks in space?? Even if possible, why? Who’s watching, is there a grandstand floating out near the moon or something?
If they've really just killed everyone over the age of 25 aboard a Starfleet ship (not literally everyone, but a significant majority), then this is already an incredibly grim outcome
Also this, there are only horrific stories to tell in this part of the Trek timeline for at least a couple of generations. And what percentage of a starship’s working crew is actually under 25? Are ships like 75% staffed with very junior personnel? Starfleet retirement is 30? Just by numbers, how aren’t there enough people over 25 on each ship to resist being immediately overpowered?
The only way out of this massively dumb ditch is, alas, time-travel undoing, which would be par for this particular course. But hey, maybe we’ll get Shaw back that way.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:48 AM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
If they've really just killed everyone over the age of 25 aboard a Starfleet ship (not literally everyone, but a significant majority), then this is already an incredibly grim outcome
Also this, there are only horrific stories to tell in this part of the Trek timeline for at least a couple of generations. And what percentage of a starship’s working crew is actually under 25? Are ships like 75% staffed with very junior personnel? Starfleet retirement is 30? Just by numbers, how aren’t there enough people over 25 on each ship to resist being immediately overpowered?
The only way out of this massively dumb ditch is, alas, time-travel undoing, which would be par for this particular course. But hey, maybe we’ll get Shaw back that way.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:48 AM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
I thought the pandering, the self-indulgent nostalgia trip, wasn't working on me. We have a bunch of the same actors and musical score that I remember, but the pleasures of TNG that I remember weren't just about those actors, those characters, and the music.
Our heroes aren't solving problems through creative diplomacy, a major character kept a secret about weird stuff they were going through instead of telling others immediately so they could help fix it, our protagonists are mostly legacy folks and their relatives rather than the current crop of meritocratically chosen best-and-brightest, I don't feel like I'm watching a high-caliber team...
So, earlier this season, even when all those bridge staff gathered around a table together on the Titan, I didn't feel particularly moved. And I've enjoyed some of the sound cues, and the score over the closing credits, but I haven't often felt more than "oh, that's nice."
And then, in this episode, to see them on the bridge of the 1701-D again, ok, I sobbed buckets. Not just because THAT gave me the sense memories of being thirty years younger and sitting on the floor in front of the big boxy TV. But because I looked at those actors and thought about them going back to a set (or a replica of one) that was one of their homes for seven years, and I hope that's as precious an experience for them as it is for a bunch of the fans.
posted by brainwane at 6:48 AM on April 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
Our heroes aren't solving problems through creative diplomacy, a major character kept a secret about weird stuff they were going through instead of telling others immediately so they could help fix it, our protagonists are mostly legacy folks and their relatives rather than the current crop of meritocratically chosen best-and-brightest, I don't feel like I'm watching a high-caliber team...
So, earlier this season, even when all those bridge staff gathered around a table together on the Titan, I didn't feel particularly moved. And I've enjoyed some of the sound cues, and the score over the closing credits, but I haven't often felt more than "oh, that's nice."
And then, in this episode, to see them on the bridge of the 1701-D again, ok, I sobbed buckets. Not just because THAT gave me the sense memories of being thirty years younger and sitting on the floor in front of the big boxy TV. But because I looked at those actors and thought about them going back to a set (or a replica of one) that was one of their homes for seven years, and I hope that's as precious an experience for them as it is for a bunch of the fans.
posted by brainwane at 6:48 AM on April 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
to see them on the bridge of the 1701-D again, ok, I sobbed buckets
I really wish I’d found that moving, but it just made me upset, and felt cheap and unearned and was narratively placed immediately after horrific mass murder, which was awkward. It’s like the only real feeling the show wants me to have is nostalgia; everything else, like Shaw’s death or mass murder in Starfleet, have no storytelling weight, but Our Heroes walking on their old bridge: that’s meaningful? It just reads as painfully solipsistic to me, trying way too hard to make me like this show because I love that other one from 30 years ago.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:56 AM on April 14, 2023 [18 favorites]
I really wish I’d found that moving, but it just made me upset, and felt cheap and unearned and was narratively placed immediately after horrific mass murder, which was awkward. It’s like the only real feeling the show wants me to have is nostalgia; everything else, like Shaw’s death or mass murder in Starfleet, have no storytelling weight, but Our Heroes walking on their old bridge: that’s meaningful? It just reads as painfully solipsistic to me, trying way too hard to make me like this show because I love that other one from 30 years ago.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:56 AM on April 14, 2023 [18 favorites]
And what percentage of a starship’s working crew is actually under 25? Are ships like 75% staffed with very junior personnel?
DoD documentation from a few years ago estimated that just about 52% of all active-duty personnel, across all US military branches, were under 25. It would not surprise me to learn that the Navy skewed higher, especially in ship-board deployments vs land-based/HQ-type deployments. So, yeah, I can believe that starship personnel ages skew towards 25-and-under.
posted by hanov3r at 7:46 AM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
DoD documentation from a few years ago estimated that just about 52% of all active-duty personnel, across all US military branches, were under 25. It would not surprise me to learn that the Navy skewed higher, especially in ship-board deployments vs land-based/HQ-type deployments. So, yeah, I can believe that starship personnel ages skew towards 25-and-under.
posted by hanov3r at 7:46 AM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I just keep thinking about how apparently difficult it was to get Patrick Stewart on board with reprising Picard, and the beautiful, poetic, and different first season of this show that went out of its way to avoid nostalgia and show us a different, older Picard, one that had many other life experiences after his time captaining the Enterprises, and then once Michael Chabon left they hired hacks to destroy everything they had established and built in the first season. Patrick Stewart must be kicking himself for getting talked into this.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:55 AM on April 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 7:55 AM on April 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
In the future, though, ages would probably skew higher as people have greater longevity?
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 8:01 AM on April 14, 2023
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 8:01 AM on April 14, 2023
A practical note that the borgification presumably applies to anyone whose first transporter experience in starfleet was when they were under 25 and after the code was changed. Of course they didn’t say it that way so who knows but depending on when the transporters it’s slightly more. But I’m super unclear about when that happened. If they needed Picard’s body to modify the code then it wasn’t that long. But why would the Borg need Picard’s body for the genetic code they presumably put in him to begin with?? So I prefer to think that the transporters were compromised years before the events of this season and picard’s body was stolen as backup Jack-transmitter — maybe they hoped Picard’s body had developed it and they wouldn’t have had to get Jack.
All of this is a mess and I agree the mass death is handled absurdly badly (also of course the idea of ALL the fleet being in one place linked by one computer system is obviously absurdly bad security but we can handwave that with changling infiltrators having enough key roles for starfleet to decide to do absurdly bad things). Shelby deserved better! Partner and I were mildly pleased by having transporters actually be used for something significant and scary bad because they have always been scary and dangerous (but the shows don’t go there often because it would break the universe). But also I’m super frustrated by retreading the literal same ground when you could go with rhyming ground and have Jurati-borg come back and turns out actually power corrupts etc. Or something.
Also I don’t see how any of this can be satisfactorily resolved in one episode. I really enjoyed season 1 as something actually new and asking interesting questions. But mostly the second two seasons only have done so occasionally while running with incoherent and poorly plotted stories.
posted by R343L at 8:23 AM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
All of this is a mess and I agree the mass death is handled absurdly badly (also of course the idea of ALL the fleet being in one place linked by one computer system is obviously absurdly bad security but we can handwave that with changling infiltrators having enough key roles for starfleet to decide to do absurdly bad things). Shelby deserved better! Partner and I were mildly pleased by having transporters actually be used for something significant and scary bad because they have always been scary and dangerous (but the shows don’t go there often because it would break the universe). But also I’m super frustrated by retreading the literal same ground when you could go with rhyming ground and have Jurati-borg come back and turns out actually power corrupts etc. Or something.
Also I don’t see how any of this can be satisfactorily resolved in one episode. I really enjoyed season 1 as something actually new and asking interesting questions. But mostly the second two seasons only have done so occasionally while running with incoherent and poorly plotted stories.
posted by R343L at 8:23 AM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am extremely confused about precisely how and why Vadik was working with the Borg. It's been confirmed she was taking orders from the Borg Queen, who wanted Jack – and yet Jack just ended up going to the Borg anyway? Why did Vadik need to steal Picard's body? Was it to figure out what the receiver/transmitter thing worked? But then... did that happen years ago?
I'm sure there's a way to make this all line up, no doubt in some extended universe book or comic, but it's really unclear to me and the whole thing makes Vadik seem pointless.
posted by adrianhon at 8:44 AM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sure there's a way to make this all line up, no doubt in some extended universe book or comic, but it's really unclear to me and the whole thing makes Vadik seem pointless.
posted by adrianhon at 8:44 AM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wasn't in love with season 1, but it was interesting. We had the holo-crew, Elnor, the XBs, the return of 7, a visit with the Riker family, and so forth. Then we had the mess of season 2, which seemed to be to get rid of the interesting new people. (And the central mystery? No resolution, and no interest in revisiting it.)
Now for this season, apparently Dr. Sung discovered that Picard had a Borg receiver in him. Nobody bothered telling new Picard, and they hid the information at the top secret Daystrom facility, where the Borg/Changeling renegades immediately found out about it. They then determined that his son, which they had no reason to believe existed was a transmitter (in some way that Borg technology can't duplicate), and set out to capture him. Meanwhile, they started infiltrating Starfleet to put their plan into effect, without knowing if it was even possible.
Makes perfect sense, right?
posted by Spike Glee at 8:56 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Now for this season, apparently Dr. Sung discovered that Picard had a Borg receiver in him. Nobody bothered telling new Picard, and they hid the information at the top secret Daystrom facility, where the Borg/Changeling renegades immediately found out about it. They then determined that his son, which they had no reason to believe existed was a transmitter (in some way that Borg technology can't duplicate), and set out to capture him. Meanwhile, they started infiltrating Starfleet to put their plan into effect, without knowing if it was even possible.
Makes perfect sense, right?
posted by Spike Glee at 8:56 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also! The way this storyline is going it also reduces the impact of the harms done to the various changlings. They won’t get any redress from starfleet for section 31’s crimes (which now are retconned to be a decision the Federarion made??) and the changlings are just tools for the Borg to do the same thing the Borg have done in the past. Vadic’s recitation of what was done to them is actually really bad! But the story probably won’t have time to talk about it or resolve it in any way.
posted by R343L at 9:08 AM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by R343L at 9:08 AM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am extremely confused about precisely how and why Vadik was working with the Borg.
If the Changelings could infiltrate Starfleet that extensively, at such a high level, why would they hand over everything to the Borg? In fact, why even have "Frontier Day" at all?
I've enjoyed this season, never understood the negativty here, but this entire ending is just absolute tone-deaf, suspension-of-disbelief-destroying garbage.
From an in-world POV, where does the Federation go from here? A generation of young officers decimated, its credibility as galactic leaders/protectors destroyed, all from years' worth of stupid decisions by its leaders.* Why would developing planets want to join? Why would existing members want to stay?**
* Yes, I know the Changelings infiltrated, blah blah blah. But the rest of Starfleet couldn't detect it or stop it, so...
** Yes, I'm a huge pessimist. Why do you ask?
posted by PlusDistance at 9:10 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
If the Changelings could infiltrate Starfleet that extensively, at such a high level, why would they hand over everything to the Borg? In fact, why even have "Frontier Day" at all?
I've enjoyed this season, never understood the negativty here, but this entire ending is just absolute tone-deaf, suspension-of-disbelief-destroying garbage.
From an in-world POV, where does the Federation go from here? A generation of young officers decimated, its credibility as galactic leaders/protectors destroyed, all from years' worth of stupid decisions by its leaders.* Why would developing planets want to join? Why would existing members want to stay?**
* Yes, I know the Changelings infiltrated, blah blah blah. But the rest of Starfleet couldn't detect it or stop it, so...
** Yes, I'm a huge pessimist. Why do you ask?
posted by PlusDistance at 9:10 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Why would existing members want to stay?
Discovery S3 tackles that very question at length, albeit with a far-future time frame and totally different proximate causes.
posted by lumensimus at 9:31 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Discovery S3 tackles that very question at length, albeit with a far-future time frame and totally different proximate causes.
posted by lumensimus at 9:31 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Discovery S3 tackles that very question at length, albeit with a far-future time frame and totally different proximate causes.
Also, the dissolution happened so long ago that it's a problem to be overcome (optimism!), not a disaster in the making.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:36 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, the dissolution happened so long ago that it's a problem to be overcome (optimism!), not a disaster in the making.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:36 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I had resigned myself to the Borg and just sorta shrugged at the Borg of the corn variation.
I do wish some of the more enjoyable moments for me were set within a more enjoyable narrative framework in line with the that mentioned above—of Star Trek as people thinking (and occasionally fighting) through issues together. The trends in episodic TV also mentioned above are definitely at work.
Still, I'm taken enough by nostalgia to appreciate seeing the D or the scene of Data laying a comforting hand on Picard's shoulder, which connected in my mind with the scene of Riker asking Data's forgiveness after the trial in "The Measure of a Man."
So if I cannot have the satisfaction of a larger narrative framework that is more to my liking, perhaps I can imagine a more enjoyable, if almost certainly not better, alternative:
After whatever the last scene is, the characters look up to behold Nagilum's hideous visage. It speaks, "Is that the best you can do? And we are even out here among the stars as you asked."
posted by audi alteram partem at 10:20 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do wish some of the more enjoyable moments for me were set within a more enjoyable narrative framework in line with the that mentioned above—of Star Trek as people thinking (and occasionally fighting) through issues together. The trends in episodic TV also mentioned above are definitely at work.
Still, I'm taken enough by nostalgia to appreciate seeing the D or the scene of Data laying a comforting hand on Picard's shoulder, which connected in my mind with the scene of Riker asking Data's forgiveness after the trial in "The Measure of a Man."
So if I cannot have the satisfaction of a larger narrative framework that is more to my liking, perhaps I can imagine a more enjoyable, if almost certainly not better, alternative:
After whatever the last scene is, the characters look up to behold Nagilum's hideous visage. It speaks, "Is that the best you can do? And we are even out here among the stars as you asked."
posted by audi alteram partem at 10:20 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
More stray gripes I forgot to mention in the gripe post:
posted by confluency at 12:09 PM on April 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
- The Starfleet massacre is particularly grim because this season leaned heavily into the idea that shipmates = family (I mean, that idea is literally underpinning the whole nostalgia trip). So, hey, young person, while you were being puppeted by the Borg you murdered half your family (and maybe you were conscious for some of that and unable to stop yourself), but it's OK; we pushed the magic button and you are no longer being mind-controlled. Happy ending! Yay!
- Jack's idiot non-plan completely undermines the entire rest of the season, in which multiple people risked (and gave) their lives to stop Vadic from capturing him and taking him to the Borg Queen. What does Jack do? Voluntarily go to the Borg Queen. Cool. What was all of that for, then?
- In general, everyone outside of the core TNG cast has been treated like an expendable NPC, and as someone who has always loved Star Trek because the worldbuilding makes it feel like a real, lived-in place, I find that upsetting. They couldn't kill off Seven because she's a beloved legacy character from a different show, and Raffi... has been so weirdly and inconsistently misused that I think they didn't know what to do with her. So they were both just sort of there, a decision which is particularly bizarre when the Big Bad ends up being the Borg! How do you ignore Seven in a story about the Borg?
- I thought that the first season was weird but OK, and really disliked the second season, but I don't think that means that two entire seasons should be completely retconned. Retconning of the first, better, season started in the second season with the writing out or sidelining of most of the new characters. I think that specifically was a mistake -- many fans, regardless of how they felt about the storyline, became attached to the characters, and were expecting them to stick around to be put in a better story and developed further. This is partially a S2 gripe, but S3 continues to make similar decisions about these characters.
posted by confluency at 12:09 PM on April 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
It feels like they had two ideas about the season, The Changelings or The Borg and then didn't choose between them and just stuffed both plot-lines into one clumsy season.
posted by octothorpe at 12:42 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 12:42 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I keep thinking about the big twist and how nobody figured it out. No one did science. No one used logic. No one investigated. It was just a mystery in Jack's head until it was revealed at the start of ep 9 because that was the most convenient time for the plot point to drop.
That's emblematic of the writing problems with this show but it's so anti-Trek specifically. Not a mystery to be solved, a plot point to be revealed.
posted by crossoverman at 4:21 PM on April 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
That's emblematic of the writing problems with this show but it's so anti-Trek specifically. Not a mystery to be solved, a plot point to be revealed.
posted by crossoverman at 4:21 PM on April 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
I haven't hated this season. I didn't care for the first two, and with my expectations thus lowered, I've enjoyed it enough. It does seem like a wasted opportunity to do something really good, mind you.
No one did science. No one used logic. No one investigated.
Troi found it out, to be fair. And she hadn't even really been in the same room as Jack until then.
Of all the dumb shit in this episode: fireworks in space?? Even if possible, why? Who’s watching, is there a grandstand floating out near the moon or something?
I guess I assumed there were a bunch of high-ups watching from Spacedock.
If the Changelings could infiltrate Starfleet that extensively, at such a high level, why would they hand over everything to the Borg? In fact, why even have "Frontier Day" at all?
It sounded like there weren't that many Changeling infiltrators. Maybe they could replace a bunch of the higher ranks but that might actually not be enough to really totally destroy Starfleet on their own.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:23 PM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
No one did science. No one used logic. No one investigated.
Troi found it out, to be fair. And she hadn't even really been in the same room as Jack until then.
Of all the dumb shit in this episode: fireworks in space?? Even if possible, why? Who’s watching, is there a grandstand floating out near the moon or something?
I guess I assumed there were a bunch of high-ups watching from Spacedock.
If the Changelings could infiltrate Starfleet that extensively, at such a high level, why would they hand over everything to the Borg? In fact, why even have "Frontier Day" at all?
It sounded like there weren't that many Changeling infiltrators. Maybe they could replace a bunch of the higher ranks but that might actually not be enough to really totally destroy Starfleet on their own.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:23 PM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
This just made me so mad. For all the ample reasons cited above, but most especially for pissing away one of the best, most entertaining characters they've introduced in years so the crew could escape to have their nostalgia love-in. Many of us here were hoping to have a Shaw-asshole-captaining-the-Titan-around-space show, and while they obviously filmed all this before they would have seen the reaction to him (and Seven), they had to have been aware that they had some real gold there in the character and the performer. That they threw away something newer and fresher than the tedious, neverending warmed-over nostalgia-fest of reboots and retconnings that is the shambling corpse of Star Trek properties now in favor of dragging out the wizened crew and boring Borg to match age-dulled wits and phasers yet again is just insulting. Augh. Ugh. This is why I can't work up much interest to watch all these other Trek things or feel much enthusiasm when I do.
And god, yeah, the idea of going from all these people getting killed or assimilated to then making jokes about the carpet so we can get the band back together on the bus is so gross. I'm just gonna be forever salty that we won't get the Captain Dickhead Shaw and Commander Seven of Nine show. What a narrowed-eyed, claws out, hilarious wing-ding that would have been.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 5:32 PM on April 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
And god, yeah, the idea of going from all these people getting killed or assimilated to then making jokes about the carpet so we can get the band back together on the bus is so gross. I'm just gonna be forever salty that we won't get the Captain Dickhead Shaw and Commander Seven of Nine show. What a narrowed-eyed, claws out, hilarious wing-ding that would have been.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 5:32 PM on April 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
I just could not believe they weren't asking 7's advice about the Borg issues. A bizarre choice.
posted by Coaticass at 5:43 PM on April 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Coaticass at 5:43 PM on April 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
So here's a minor thing that bugs me that I haven't seen mentioned yet: Shaw has his own traumatic past with the Borg and Picard-as-Locutus; they gave him a great moment to expound on it. Why would you throw that away so cheaply, when you could have Shaw fighting alongside Picard against the Borg? Well, I mean it's because Shaw might take away time from someone on the old crew (but hey, it's not like Crusher has had a lot to do). But there was a chance to do something new here with Picard reconciling with a survivor of Wolf 359....but instead it's more important to have jokes about the carpet on the D after a massacre.
Anyways.
posted by nubs at 5:50 PM on April 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anyways.
posted by nubs at 5:50 PM on April 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
JACK: The Borg?
PICARD: a seed grows into a man or something
JACK, exasperated: What an explanation.
Even crafty old Jack is stunned by the fact that the first thing I thought of in like episode one but seemed way too obvious to tease out for a whole season like this was THE BORG saying "let me connect".
posted by some loser at 6:52 PM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
PICARD: a seed grows into a man or something
JACK, exasperated: What an explanation.
Even crafty old Jack is stunned by the fact that the first thing I thought of in like episode one but seemed way too obvious to tease out for a whole season like this was THE BORG saying "let me connect".
posted by some loser at 6:52 PM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Nostalgia's a hell of a drug. 💖
posted by Space Kitty at 11:58 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 11:58 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are all kinds of problems with this show, and I largely agree with the person above who lamented that Michael Chabon's truly original first season has been succeeded by two much lower-quality seasons of derivative hackwork.
Still and all: I have ALWAYS hated that Rick Berman blew up the 1701-D in Generations. Speaking of derivative hackwork, it felt like a such a cheap, unearned imitation of the destruction of the NCC-1701 in Search For Spock, which had been so bold and shocking (and which fit so precisely into the moral equation of that film's well-crafted story).
So Geordi's big reveal here -- which I will say they set up pretty neatly -- made me happy.
That ship was a truly original design, a great fusion of Gene Roddenberry's utopian ideas and Andrew Probert's artistic talents. It reflected totally different concepts and aesthetics than the cluttered, dark interiors overstuffed with giant screens and shiny surfaces that the Trek shows all use now. It felt powerful and advanced, yet it also communicated a holistic, humanistic, optimistic, non-militaristic vibe.
Those qualities are in short supply in Trek these days -- and in our society generally. I know that bringing the good ship D back for one episode isn't going to infuse this show with those values. But it's nice, at least, to be reminded of how it embodied them.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:59 AM on April 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
Still and all: I have ALWAYS hated that Rick Berman blew up the 1701-D in Generations. Speaking of derivative hackwork, it felt like a such a cheap, unearned imitation of the destruction of the NCC-1701 in Search For Spock, which had been so bold and shocking (and which fit so precisely into the moral equation of that film's well-crafted story).
So Geordi's big reveal here -- which I will say they set up pretty neatly -- made me happy.
That ship was a truly original design, a great fusion of Gene Roddenberry's utopian ideas and Andrew Probert's artistic talents. It reflected totally different concepts and aesthetics than the cluttered, dark interiors overstuffed with giant screens and shiny surfaces that the Trek shows all use now. It felt powerful and advanced, yet it also communicated a holistic, humanistic, optimistic, non-militaristic vibe.
Those qualities are in short supply in Trek these days -- and in our society generally. I know that bringing the good ship D back for one episode isn't going to infuse this show with those values. But it's nice, at least, to be reminded of how it embodied them.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:59 AM on April 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
kitten kaboodle:
posted by confluency at 1:15 AM on April 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is why I can't work up much interest to watch all these other Trek things or feel much enthusiasm when I do.I'm a stuck record about this, but I really like Lower Decks and Prodigy. (I also like Strange New Worlds, but SNW is not a continuation of 90s era Trek, and LD and PRO are.) They both took me a few episodes to get into -- LD is definitely a comedy, and the first episode makes the humour seem a lot more loud and over-the-top than it is for most of the series, and PRO is very much aimed at young adults and has some YA-typical dialogue and storylines. Your tolerance for these things may vary from mine, but I found that both shows got genuinely good, and introduced new things while incorporating ties to the existing canon (in ways that aren't just tedious fanservice). Are they a substitute for a non-comedic live action series? No. But I went in pretty sceptical, and ended up enjoying both of them on their own terms.
posted by confluency at 1:15 AM on April 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
Sorry here is the actual dialog I was paraphrasing from memory:
PICARD: A seed. Something I passed on to you. One that took a generation to grow.
( Jack sighs )
JACK: The Borg. That's quite the explanation.
I feel like this is fourth wall breaking is like some writer is trying to get a message out "help, they wont let us out of the room until we come up with a way to get the old crew back together on the Enterprise D!"
posted by some loser at 7:10 AM on April 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
PICARD: A seed. Something I passed on to you. One that took a generation to grow.
( Jack sighs )
JACK: The Borg. That's quite the explanation.
I feel like this is fourth wall breaking is like some writer is trying to get a message out "help, they wont let us out of the room until we come up with a way to get the old crew back together on the Enterprise D!"
posted by some loser at 7:10 AM on April 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
In retrospect Pah Wraiths would have been better.
posted by Nelson at 7:45 AM on April 15, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 7:45 AM on April 15, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm currently managing my general disappointment with the writing by believing that Shaw isn't really dead. If it's not timey-wimey stuff, I expect the finale will bring him back with Borg tech or nano-somethings, but they're gonna bring at least Shaw back to life, because of course his death was a meaningless misdirect. (And it would be appropriately facile as a writing choice if the outcome is 'Shaw is saved by Borg tech and is now part Borg, how ironic, right?'.)
(What's really ironic is that my hope about Shaw's return relies on the dumb choices the writers have made thus far to be consistent enough to save the one interesting new character they've created.)
posted by LooseFilter at 8:44 AM on April 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
(What's really ironic is that my hope about Shaw's return relies on the dumb choices the writers have made thus far to be consistent enough to save the one interesting new character they've created.)
posted by LooseFilter at 8:44 AM on April 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
I have the stupidest possible complaint about the return of the E-D.
Leaving aside the fact that it takes a lot more than 8 people to run a Galaxy-class ship (remember, the only reason Kirk's crew was able to handle the original Enterprise in STIII was Scotty's automation), looking at the final shot of the ship before it jumps to warp... WHY ARE SO MANY LIGHTS ON? It's been shown in closeups in many episodes that a lot of, if not MOST of, the lights along the hulls are windows into staterooms, conference rooms, etc. No one else is on the ship, so why are the lights on in so many rooms?
My dad would be running from deck to deck, turning off lights and complaining about people's laziness.
posted by hanov3r at 10:22 AM on April 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
Leaving aside the fact that it takes a lot more than 8 people to run a Galaxy-class ship (remember, the only reason Kirk's crew was able to handle the original Enterprise in STIII was Scotty's automation), looking at the final shot of the ship before it jumps to warp... WHY ARE SO MANY LIGHTS ON? It's been shown in closeups in many episodes that a lot of, if not MOST of, the lights along the hulls are windows into staterooms, conference rooms, etc. No one else is on the ship, so why are the lights on in so many rooms?
My dad would be running from deck to deck, turning off lights and complaining about people's laziness.
posted by hanov3r at 10:22 AM on April 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
lololol. I exclaimed the same thing during that scene. very petty thing to care about but also we had just objected to them somehow running the enterprise with all of like 8 people on the bridge and no one else (how does using drones for everything fit in with season 1’s questions about artificial life etc?! how isn’t this the same as the borgified fleet tech they were just criticizing? or are they not intelligent drones but if they aren’t how do they do all the things? why do starships have such big crews if you can run them with non-AI drones? Really this entire parenthetical is just pointing out that the show runners did not care about any of this stuff making sense within the star trek universe or even being internally consistent with narrative points being made literally in the preceding scene in the same episode.)
posted by R343L at 10:36 AM on April 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by R343L at 10:36 AM on April 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Don't forget, we're also told the 1701-D is "analog" and not connected to "Starfleet's mainframe". Hard to imagine they have some advanced computer systems running everything. Maybe the drones running the ship are golems animated by kaballistic magic?
How many crew it takes to run a starship is a persistent plot-enchancer in Star Trek. Sometimes just to justify a small cast, sometimes to emphasize fancier tech, sometimes to make a ship that's interestingly different like the DS9 runabouts. The answer for Picard seems to be "you wanted to see your favorite old characters back, now shut up."
My ret-con: Data is doing it all. I think he may have even shown off that trick in a TNG episode.
posted by Nelson at 11:15 AM on April 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
How many crew it takes to run a starship is a persistent plot-enchancer in Star Trek. Sometimes just to justify a small cast, sometimes to emphasize fancier tech, sometimes to make a ship that's interestingly different like the DS9 runabouts. The answer for Picard seems to be "you wanted to see your favorite old characters back, now shut up."
My ret-con: Data is doing it all. I think he may have even shown off that trick in a TNG episode.
posted by Nelson at 11:15 AM on April 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
The line about the Ent-D being “analog” was obvious hyperbole.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:14 PM on April 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 3:14 PM on April 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
LooseFilter: so apparently Terry Matalas is now saying that he always planned to kill off Shaw, but also always planned to bring Shaw back for an as-yet-hypothetical spin-off. He's being cryptic as to how exactly, but is confident that it's something people will think is cool. It's unclear whether the finale will include any suggestion of this.
There's some speculation that he could come back as an Emergency Engineer Hologram, which sounds... not that terrible, I guess. We have extensive precedent that in this universe holograms are real people, and not just convincing Eliza programs.
And this is a series in which they killed Spock extremely dead and brought him back with handwavium, killed Data and brought him back a bajillion times, killed Picard and magicked him into a synth body, killed Gray Tal and brought him back as a Trill host ghost and then magicked him into a synth body even more magically, killed Culber and then brought him back with magic mushrooms, etc.. And of course there's Shaxs' black mountain, but that sounds like way too much trouble. I'm sure I'm forgetting about a hundred other resurrections. So as long as his consciousness survives in some form, there are lots of options for transmogrifying him into some other form later.
If they are thinking of doing the hologram thing, my fanwank is that they will do the same for a lot of the other dead Starfleet personnel. Both as a result of the many, many vacancies that have recently opened up, and for the sake of crew morale after The Incident, these holograms will stay on semi-permanently (like Voyager's Doctor), so for a while the Federation will have a whole bunch of holo-citizens, which would be an interesting situation to explore in a spin-off. How do these holograms get made? How much data do you need to make a faithful copy of a dead person? What if you don't have enough? Can you mash up different people? What if the same person is copied lots of times? Will all of these people eventually get synth bodies, now that the synth ban is lifted? Will all of them want to get synth bodies?
Orrrrr maybe I'm overthinking this and it's just going to be the Borg again. It's always the Borg.
posted by confluency at 4:02 PM on April 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's some speculation that he could come back as an Emergency Engineer Hologram, which sounds... not that terrible, I guess. We have extensive precedent that in this universe holograms are real people, and not just convincing Eliza programs.
And this is a series in which they killed Spock extremely dead and brought him back with handwavium, killed Data and brought him back a bajillion times, killed Picard and magicked him into a synth body, killed Gray Tal and brought him back as a Trill host ghost and then magicked him into a synth body even more magically, killed Culber and then brought him back with magic mushrooms, etc.. And of course there's Shaxs' black mountain, but that sounds like way too much trouble. I'm sure I'm forgetting about a hundred other resurrections. So as long as his consciousness survives in some form, there are lots of options for transmogrifying him into some other form later.
If they are thinking of doing the hologram thing, my fanwank is that they will do the same for a lot of the other dead Starfleet personnel. Both as a result of the many, many vacancies that have recently opened up, and for the sake of crew morale after The Incident, these holograms will stay on semi-permanently (like Voyager's Doctor), so for a while the Federation will have a whole bunch of holo-citizens, which would be an interesting situation to explore in a spin-off. How do these holograms get made? How much data do you need to make a faithful copy of a dead person? What if you don't have enough? Can you mash up different people? What if the same person is copied lots of times? Will all of these people eventually get synth bodies, now that the synth ban is lifted? Will all of them want to get synth bodies?
Orrrrr maybe I'm overthinking this and it's just going to be the Borg again. It's always the Borg.
posted by confluency at 4:02 PM on April 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
Leaving aside the fact that it takes a lot more than 8 people to run a Galaxy-class ship (remember, the only reason Kirk's crew was able to handle the original Enterprise in STIII was Scotty's automation),
I loved everything about seeing the D, but it seemed like the more logical choice for the small group was also parked right there.
posted by Pryde at 4:43 PM on April 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
I loved everything about seeing the D, but it seemed like the more logical choice for the small group was also parked right there.
posted by Pryde at 4:43 PM on April 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
My dad would be running from deck to deck, turning off lights and complaining about people's laziness.
The best investment I made when redoing the lighting in our kitchen was adding an occupancy sensor, so that when my kids go into the kitchen, the light turns itself off 5 minutes after they leave.
posted by mikelieman at 5:27 PM on April 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
The best investment I made when redoing the lighting in our kitchen was adding an occupancy sensor, so that when my kids go into the kitchen, the light turns itself off 5 minutes after they leave.
posted by mikelieman at 5:27 PM on April 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
And it would be appropriately facile as a writing choice if the outcome is 'Shaw is saved by Borg tech and is now part Borg, how ironic, right?'
Oh, goddamn it, that's EXACTLY what they're going to do, isn't it? As soon as I read that sentence I knew it was.
posted by briank at 6:14 PM on April 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Oh, goddamn it, that's EXACTLY what they're going to do, isn't it? As soon as I read that sentence I knew it was.
posted by briank at 6:14 PM on April 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’m just happy the bridge was well-lit.
posted by degoao at 6:21 PM on April 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by degoao at 6:21 PM on April 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
But the Borg had no guarantee that Picard would have contraception-free PIV intercourse with someone.
So you're saying Jamaharon was part of the Borg plot?
posted by biffa at 6:26 PM on April 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
So you're saying Jamaharon was part of the Borg plot?
posted by biffa at 6:26 PM on April 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
”I’m responsible for the lives of 148 crew members aboard this ship, 144 of which we never see.”
posted by Servo5678 at 6:31 PM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Servo5678 at 6:31 PM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Prediction for next week: Picard speedruns the rest of fatherhood
Cue the montage!
posted by fairmettle at 5:43 AM on April 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cue the montage!
posted by fairmettle at 5:43 AM on April 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh for the days when the silly contrived ending came at the end of an episode instead of the end of a season.
posted by StarkRoads at 9:26 AM on April 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by StarkRoads at 9:26 AM on April 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Even worse, this is the end of the whole series! This might be the last time we see these characters and I think I hate this ending more than Nemesis.
posted by crossoverman at 3:47 PM on April 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 3:47 PM on April 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
hate this ending more than Nemesis.
Okay, let’s all just try to keep our heads here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:34 PM on April 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
Okay, let’s all just try to keep our heads here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:34 PM on April 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
It does kinda suck that our sendoff for the TNG crew is a perfectly average season of Discovery, huh.
posted by StarkRoads at 7:05 PM on April 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by StarkRoads at 7:05 PM on April 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Leaving aside the fact that it takes a lot more than 8 people to run a Galaxy-class ship
To be fair, it was shown more than once in TNG that the ship was perfectly capable of operating on its own, at least for limited periods of time. All you really need is someone to tell the computer where to go. Picard (or anyone else) could do that completely alone in a pinch. The people are just there to fix things that break or make high level decisions. (And to do research, keep everyone alive, happy, and healthy, and all the other stuff not related to making the ship go that the ship can't do on its own)
It was silly to describe the D as analog, though. It's just not so closely connected to the rest of the fleet in a way that can't be overridden.
posted by wierdo at 4:15 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
To be fair, it was shown more than once in TNG that the ship was perfectly capable of operating on its own, at least for limited periods of time. All you really need is someone to tell the computer where to go. Picard (or anyone else) could do that completely alone in a pinch. The people are just there to fix things that break or make high level decisions. (And to do research, keep everyone alive, happy, and healthy, and all the other stuff not related to making the ship go that the ship can't do on its own)
It was silly to describe the D as analog, though. It's just not so closely connected to the rest of the fleet in a way that can't be overridden.
posted by wierdo at 4:15 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
From "Remember Me" when Crusher and Picard were the last two people on the ship after the crew disappeared one by one, and Picard didn't see anything wrong about that:
CRUSHER: It's all perfectly logical to you, isn't it? The two of us roaming about the galaxy in the flagship of the Federation. No crew at all.
PICARD: We've never needed a crew before.
posted by Servo5678 at 4:46 AM on April 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
CRUSHER: It's all perfectly logical to you, isn't it? The two of us roaming about the galaxy in the flagship of the Federation. No crew at all.
PICARD: We've never needed a crew before.
posted by Servo5678 at 4:46 AM on April 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
^ That sounds like just the kind of conversation that produced Jack.
posted by fairmettle at 6:53 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fairmettle at 6:53 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
To be fair, it was shown more than once in TNG that the ship was perfectly capable of operating on its own, at least for limited periods of time. All you really need is someone to tell the computer where to go. Picard (or anyone else) could do that completely alone in a pinch. The people are just there to fix things that break or make high level decisions. (And to do research, keep everyone alive, happy, and healthy, and all the other stuff not related to making the ship go that the ship can't do on its own)
It's definitely a thing for TNG era ships that in emergency situations the vessels can be operated by a small crew, typically stationed either on the bridge or in Engineering. Long term operation? Not really, but the basic elements of flying, shooting, and so on, can all be operated from these two places (don't forget, the Enterprise-D even has its own "war bridge" in the lower half). The problem comes into the situation in combat when your ship suffers damage that a regular crew might be able to fix during the fighting, but will not be fixed when you have one guy at a station on the bridge and the best he can do is turn this off, or transfer that, and so on.
The focus on Geordi's analog statement is kinda overblown. I don't think anyone writing that line was trying to say the Enterprise D was literally run on wires and moving parts. We know what he meant, and we know what the writers were trying to convey. Could they have said it better? Probably, but it's not worth this level of focus.
For all the lights being on, this restoration is Geordi's pride and joy. You don't think he wouldn't rig the ship to look as magnificent as ever leaving the Fleet Museum's space dock? The guy doesn't want folks going, "Oh, I see La Forge didn't bother to fix every light in every room. What a short cut!"
I don't think this season is a far cry from what one would expect from TNG. Episodes were constructed in different ways, but it wasn't out of the ordinary for crap to hit the fan and the only realization of what the problem was and time to fix it was in the 3rd or 4th act of the episode. I think one of the biggest holes is the whole Changeling and Borg. How did they connect in the first place? The presumption from Vadic's backstory was that there weren't that many unique Changelings, but clearly, there's enough to bother taking out Tuvok (perhaps his closeness to Janeway??). My assumption is that even if the Changelings could effectively take over Starfleet leadership, in the absence of a war where command decisions could have catastrophic consequences and lead to Dominion victory and overlordship...in peacetime, the best you could do is sabotage diplomacy and that might be harder for a Changeling impersonator to justify absent something like the crisis a war creates (i.e., like taking out the Klingon Chancellor).
posted by Atreides at 7:06 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's definitely a thing for TNG era ships that in emergency situations the vessels can be operated by a small crew, typically stationed either on the bridge or in Engineering. Long term operation? Not really, but the basic elements of flying, shooting, and so on, can all be operated from these two places (don't forget, the Enterprise-D even has its own "war bridge" in the lower half). The problem comes into the situation in combat when your ship suffers damage that a regular crew might be able to fix during the fighting, but will not be fixed when you have one guy at a station on the bridge and the best he can do is turn this off, or transfer that, and so on.
The focus on Geordi's analog statement is kinda overblown. I don't think anyone writing that line was trying to say the Enterprise D was literally run on wires and moving parts. We know what he meant, and we know what the writers were trying to convey. Could they have said it better? Probably, but it's not worth this level of focus.
For all the lights being on, this restoration is Geordi's pride and joy. You don't think he wouldn't rig the ship to look as magnificent as ever leaving the Fleet Museum's space dock? The guy doesn't want folks going, "Oh, I see La Forge didn't bother to fix every light in every room. What a short cut!"
I don't think this season is a far cry from what one would expect from TNG. Episodes were constructed in different ways, but it wasn't out of the ordinary for crap to hit the fan and the only realization of what the problem was and time to fix it was in the 3rd or 4th act of the episode. I think one of the biggest holes is the whole Changeling and Borg. How did they connect in the first place? The presumption from Vadic's backstory was that there weren't that many unique Changelings, but clearly, there's enough to bother taking out Tuvok (perhaps his closeness to Janeway??). My assumption is that even if the Changelings could effectively take over Starfleet leadership, in the absence of a war where command decisions could have catastrophic consequences and lead to Dominion victory and overlordship...in peacetime, the best you could do is sabotage diplomacy and that might be harder for a Changeling impersonator to justify absent something like the crisis a war creates (i.e., like taking out the Klingon Chancellor).
posted by Atreides at 7:06 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of the many things I'm still fuming about is that the Big Conspiracy this season was just a rehash of the premise of Battlestar Galactica. Did no one in the writers room say "Ron Moore did it already"?
"They can look like us!" Cylons or Changelings?
"The ships are all networked together and can act as one!" Colonial Fleet or Starfleet?
"Good thing this old, battle-hardened and famous ship was too old to be networked, so isn't vulnerable to the computer virus that's taken control of the fleet!" Galactica or Enterprise-D?
"We're being attacked by robotic, hive-mind drones!" Cylons or Borg?
Etc.
Not only ham-fisted, but really disappointingly derivative.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:17 AM on April 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
"They can look like us!" Cylons or Changelings?
"The ships are all networked together and can act as one!" Colonial Fleet or Starfleet?
"Good thing this old, battle-hardened and famous ship was too old to be networked, so isn't vulnerable to the computer virus that's taken control of the fleet!" Galactica or Enterprise-D?
"We're being attacked by robotic, hive-mind drones!" Cylons or Borg?
Etc.
Not only ham-fisted, but really disappointingly derivative.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:17 AM on April 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
The thing that I'm kind of noticing as a massive shift is that I remember when we as fans were told that, oh no, we couldn't ever bring that show back, the sets were scrapped and it would cost too much to rebuild them. And here we are with what I'm assuming is a virtual set of the Enterprise D bridge, no big deal, the actors can work around the virtual part of it. Or is there enough money sloshing around now that shows are only producing half as many episodes that running up construction costs is less of a financial burden?
posted by Kyol at 8:23 AM on April 17, 2023
posted by Kyol at 8:23 AM on April 17, 2023
what I'm assuming is a virtual set of the Enterprise D bridge
No, they physically rebuilt it in loving, wonderful detail. Which does seem super expensive for basically one episode of Picard. Which probably means that a spin-off that will use this set is already in development. Sigh.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:36 AM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
No, they physically rebuilt it in loving, wonderful detail. Which does seem super expensive for basically one episode of Picard. Which probably means that a spin-off that will use this set is already in development. Sigh.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:36 AM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
"They can look like us!" Cylons or Changelings?
"The ships are all networked together and can act as one!" Colonial Fleet or Starfleet?
"Good thing this old, battle-hardened and famous ship was too old to be networked, so isn't vulnerable to the computer virus that's taken control of the fleet!" Galactica or Enterprise-D?
"We're being attacked by robotic, hive-mind drones!" Cylons or Borg?
Etc.
Minus the networked ship aspect, this is kind of a chicken or egg type of situation.
posted by Atreides at 8:56 AM on April 17, 2023
"The ships are all networked together and can act as one!" Colonial Fleet or Starfleet?
"Good thing this old, battle-hardened and famous ship was too old to be networked, so isn't vulnerable to the computer virus that's taken control of the fleet!" Galactica or Enterprise-D?
"We're being attacked by robotic, hive-mind drones!" Cylons or Borg?
Etc.
Minus the networked ship aspect, this is kind of a chicken or egg type of situation.
posted by Atreides at 8:56 AM on April 17, 2023
Oh wow. I mean, I don't know which is more surprising, frankly, building a physical set for a few dozen scenes or having enough nerds polish off some pre-existing digital asset to be production ready and then using the Volume. I suppose there are some convenient shortcuts here in the future, 35 years later - LCARS can just be a bunch of massive OLED TVs instead of hours of artists time with a letraset and a backlight, for instance. And I'm sure they could take a few shortcuts in how much they expected everything to be used for a few dozen shots compared to something that needed to be worked in for 30 weeks of shooting with who knows how many unique greebles, but still.
posted by Kyol at 9:00 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Kyol at 9:00 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd really been enjoying this season, until this episode. Sure, it had some great things--Geordi asking Data to be positive and Data's reply; Worf humor, the Enterprise-D, and Majel's computer voice--but the Borg. Why the Borg? The Changelings were the better story-line. Why couldn't the Changelings who were experimented on go back to the Great Link and say, look what the solids did to us? And then they make a plan, using the almost-impossible to detect Changelings to infiltrate key positions and change the transporters so they can't recognize the regular changelings? Why the Borg?
I can't even imagine how they can deal with the effects of the young officers killing off everyone else (in the one episode left!) Just going to hand wave it all away? Then they killed the best new character since new (old) Christoper Pike? And they might bring him back in some weird way? Why bother killing him in the first place? They could have made some comments about the Captain staying with his ship and working with Seven and Raffi to do something about the Borg from the Titan.
And Seven's comment about Data was terrible (although Data's reaction was hilarious). I have read that it was just a joke, but Seven doesn't know him at all. That's not the kind of joke you make about a stranger.
This just got so stupid. Picard's stupid conversation with Jack. Jack's stupid decision to go straight to the Borg. Having every young person in Starfleet kill their crew mates and mentors when we already know the kind of PTSD-survivor guilt-mental health problems come from it. And one episode left to clean it all up. It's all so disappointing.
posted by ceejaytee at 10:39 AM on April 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
I can't even imagine how they can deal with the effects of the young officers killing off everyone else (in the one episode left!) Just going to hand wave it all away? Then they killed the best new character since new (old) Christoper Pike? And they might bring him back in some weird way? Why bother killing him in the first place? They could have made some comments about the Captain staying with his ship and working with Seven and Raffi to do something about the Borg from the Titan.
And Seven's comment about Data was terrible (although Data's reaction was hilarious). I have read that it was just a joke, but Seven doesn't know him at all. That's not the kind of joke you make about a stranger.
This just got so stupid. Picard's stupid conversation with Jack. Jack's stupid decision to go straight to the Borg. Having every young person in Starfleet kill their crew mates and mentors when we already know the kind of PTSD-survivor guilt-mental health problems come from it. And one episode left to clean it all up. It's all so disappointing.
posted by ceejaytee at 10:39 AM on April 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
This just got so stupid. Picard's stupid conversation with Jack. Jack's stupid decision to go straight to the Borg. Having every young person in Starfleet kill their crew mates and mentors when we already know the kind of PTSD-survivor guilt-mental health problems come from it. And one episode left to clean it all up. It's all so disappointing.
To me, I feel it's been clear pretty early on that the purpose of S3 was to be a nostalgia-fest and not a real story....which means all of the problems present were baked in; the questions being asked were all about how to get the gang back together while referencing as many past Trek things as possible. The plot and characters being consistent matters less than the next reference. And because the focus is so much in the past, there's no thought about how what is happening is going to impact the future
posted by nubs at 5:23 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
To me, I feel it's been clear pretty early on that the purpose of S3 was to be a nostalgia-fest and not a real story....which means all of the problems present were baked in; the questions being asked were all about how to get the gang back together while referencing as many past Trek things as possible. The plot and characters being consistent matters less than the next reference. And because the focus is so much in the past, there's no thought about how what is happening is going to impact the future
posted by nubs at 5:23 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’ve been enjoying this, and I appreciated having my nostalgia button hammered with the resurrection of the 1701-D. What can I say, sometimes it’s nice to be the audience that’s pandered to. The preceding massacre *did* take the shine off, but then maybe we really are watching the downfall of the Federation? Or maybe Jack is going to overpower the Borg Queen with his pure heart and cast the Borg version of mass cure wounds on the Federation olds.
I agree with comments above that the Chabon take on this show was the most interesting, but it’s still fun.
posted by threecheesetrees at 6:33 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I agree with comments above that the Chabon take on this show was the most interesting, but it’s still fun.
posted by threecheesetrees at 6:33 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Surely if Jack was borgish his eyes would flash green instead of red.
Anyway, it's all moot once the dilithium explodes.
posted by Marticus at 7:29 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyway, it's all moot once the dilithium explodes.
posted by Marticus at 7:29 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
For anybody else like myself who can't see the Ready Room YouTube link above (due to region-lock restrictions), here's a Variety article about rebuilding the D set.
posted by sardonyx at 9:43 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by sardonyx at 9:43 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Minus the networked ship aspect, this is kind of a chicken or egg type of situation.
Is Ron Moore the chicken or the egg?
posted by biffa at 9:14 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is Ron Moore the chicken or the egg?
posted by biffa at 9:14 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Surely if Jack was borgish his eyes would flash green instead of red.
Romulans got the green IP.
posted by biffa at 12:21 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Romulans got the green IP.
posted by biffa at 12:21 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm outside the USA and have been watching The Ready Room on Facebook without difficulty.
posted by Coaticass at 1:53 PM on April 18, 2023
posted by Coaticass at 1:53 PM on April 18, 2023
Paramount+ announced a Section 31 film with Michelle Yeoh!
I'm not really a fan of how Section 31 has been used outside of Deep Space Nine, but this could be interesting given Yeoh's role on Discovery was one of its early season highlights.
posted by crossoverman at 3:53 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not really a fan of how Section 31 has been used outside of Deep Space Nine, but this could be interesting given Yeoh's role on Discovery was one of its early season highlights.
posted by crossoverman at 3:53 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Surely if Jack was borgish his eyes would flash green instead of red.
None of the clues in this series are clues.
posted by StarkRoads at 3:53 PM on April 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
None of the clues in this series are clues.
posted by StarkRoads at 3:53 PM on April 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
None of the clues in this series are clues.
Not clues but they are references. The red arboretum in Jack's mind is a reference to Matalas' previous series, 12 Monkeys. Because everything this season is a reference to something else, often Matalas himself - who also did the voiceover this episode announcing the new Enterprise F. He's a fanboy and narcissist.
posted by crossoverman at 4:09 PM on April 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not clues but they are references. The red arboretum in Jack's mind is a reference to Matalas' previous series, 12 Monkeys. Because everything this season is a reference to something else, often Matalas himself - who also did the voiceover this episode announcing the new Enterprise F. He's a fanboy and narcissist.
posted by crossoverman at 4:09 PM on April 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
None of the clues in this series are clues.
that about sums it up, doesn't it
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 4:10 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
that about sums it up, doesn't it
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 4:10 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Section 31 thing being a movie seems like maybe the best option, between Oscar Winner Michelle Yeoh surely being in greater demand and also, like, I just don’t think a Section 31 series would have been a good idea
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:44 PM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:44 PM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm glad that if they're moving forward with the Section 31 idea it'll only be a movie. I love Michelle Yeoh, I loved Captain Georgiou, but I only liked Emperor Georgiou some of the time, and I felt Section 31 outlived its welcome with the end of DS9, so any time it appeared after that, from Enterprise to Discovery, I hated it.
posted by Pryde at 5:01 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Pryde at 5:01 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
my willingness to accept a Section 31 spinoff is heavily contingent upon whether it features Julian Bashir and his space husband Garak
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:06 PM on April 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:06 PM on April 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
The writer of the S31 film is a Discovery writer, but no idea when in the timeline it's set.
posted by crossoverman at 8:47 PM on April 18, 2023
posted by crossoverman at 8:47 PM on April 18, 2023
The writer of the S31 film is a Discovery writer,
Thank you for writing the world's most effective review.
posted by biffa at 2:08 AM on April 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Thank you for writing the world's most effective review.
posted by biffa at 2:08 AM on April 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I have a strong feeling that a Section 31 anything wasn't going forward until Paramount discovered they had an oscar winning actress they could use in a project.
posted by Atreides at 7:00 AM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Atreides at 7:00 AM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am curious if anyone here is watching this show as a first-or-close-to-first Star Trek experience?
I've watched a pretty overwhelming amount of the content produced over the last fifty years or so (skipped most of TAS and shut off a lot of the newest season of Discovery mid-episode), so have a pretty comprehensive mental map of canon. I can put together semi-cogent explanations of some of the plot points and character interactions, leaning heavily on "well, something significant must have changed in Seven's life between then and now" or "I can see that, a split having occurred in the great link, some changelings have changed their MO and are now...", but at the same time, so many of the references seem to be in-name-only and don't rely on established character relationships (other than the top-line "they used to serve together" or "you killed my family as Locutus") or demonstrated traits.
All that said, my question to new-viewers: how much can you follow what's going on? How many times are you either moved by, or taken out of the show when there's a music cue that lingers a bit too long for the flow of the episode, or "look at me" camera work that seems to highlight a reference or piece of world-building that doesn't seem to make sense in context.
And on the opposite side, for those in my camp who've seen a lot of the show... are you similarly taken out of the episode by the volume of over-exposition? (A don't think in my life I've said "Hello Jimmy, my brother, I know your wife Deanna must be quite sad to be leaving Arandis III, her home of the last three years, but because of your new job - the job where you will be spending a great deal of time in danger, much like your current job where you report to the Admiral who will be joining us later for this meeting..." instead of "Hey Jimmy, is Admiral Bag'o'doughnuts going to be late again?" ... if it any other franchise, I'd turn it off much faster...) But I do like the ships, so...
posted by Seeba at 7:49 AM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've watched a pretty overwhelming amount of the content produced over the last fifty years or so (skipped most of TAS and shut off a lot of the newest season of Discovery mid-episode), so have a pretty comprehensive mental map of canon. I can put together semi-cogent explanations of some of the plot points and character interactions, leaning heavily on "well, something significant must have changed in Seven's life between then and now" or "I can see that, a split having occurred in the great link, some changelings have changed their MO and are now...", but at the same time, so many of the references seem to be in-name-only and don't rely on established character relationships (other than the top-line "they used to serve together" or "you killed my family as Locutus") or demonstrated traits.
All that said, my question to new-viewers: how much can you follow what's going on? How many times are you either moved by, or taken out of the show when there's a music cue that lingers a bit too long for the flow of the episode, or "look at me" camera work that seems to highlight a reference or piece of world-building that doesn't seem to make sense in context.
And on the opposite side, for those in my camp who've seen a lot of the show... are you similarly taken out of the episode by the volume of over-exposition? (A don't think in my life I've said "Hello Jimmy, my brother, I know your wife Deanna must be quite sad to be leaving Arandis III, her home of the last three years, but because of your new job - the job where you will be spending a great deal of time in danger, much like your current job where you report to the Admiral who will be joining us later for this meeting..." instead of "Hey Jimmy, is Admiral Bag'o'doughnuts going to be late again?" ... if it any other franchise, I'd turn it off much faster...) But I do like the ships, so...
posted by Seeba at 7:49 AM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
To me, I feel it's been clear pretty early on that the purpose of S3 was to be a nostalgia-fest and not a real story....which means all of the problems present were baked in; the questions being asked were all about how to get the gang back together while referencing as many past Trek things as possible. The plot and characters being consistent matters less than the next reference. And because the focus is so much in the past, there's no thought about how what is happening is going to impact the future
Which is kind of weird because as mentioned by someone previously, ST: Lower Decks feels like its just filled with references and call backs and cameos from all of Star Trek's past and yet they somehow manage to make compelling plots and story lines in between all that nostalgia. I dunno maybe the fact that they're not bound exclusively to use the existing characters for everything makes it easier?
posted by some loser at 12:13 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Which is kind of weird because as mentioned by someone previously, ST: Lower Decks feels like its just filled with references and call backs and cameos from all of Star Trek's past and yet they somehow manage to make compelling plots and story lines in between all that nostalgia. I dunno maybe the fact that they're not bound exclusively to use the existing characters for everything makes it easier?
posted by some loser at 12:13 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
ST: Lower Decks feels like its just filled with references and call backs and cameos from all of Star Trek's past and yet they somehow manage to make compelling plots and story lines in between all that nostalgia
This is not my experience with Lower Decks, which to me feels like a sitcom without jokes. (A reference isn't naturally funny, but this show seems to think it is.)
posted by crossoverman at 3:49 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is not my experience with Lower Decks, which to me feels like a sitcom without jokes. (A reference isn't naturally funny, but this show seems to think it is.)
posted by crossoverman at 3:49 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I dunno maybe the fact that they're not bound exclusively to use the existing characters for everything makes it easier?
Just better writing. Way better writing. Lower Decks is competently written, with actual related A and B plots, consistent characters, and character development. I wouldn't be surprised if because it's animated they "simplified" the script, as it were. There's nothing wrong with complexity but the new Treks can't do it well and Picard can't do it all.
posted by juiceCake at 8:47 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just better writing. Way better writing. Lower Decks is competently written, with actual related A and B plots, consistent characters, and character development. I wouldn't be surprised if because it's animated they "simplified" the script, as it were. There's nothing wrong with complexity but the new Treks can't do it well and Picard can't do it all.
posted by juiceCake at 8:47 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's nothing wrong with complexity but the new Treks can't do it well
Strange New Worlds does it brilliantly. I am excited for S2.
posted by crossoverman at 9:45 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Strange New Worlds does it brilliantly. I am excited for S2.
posted by crossoverman at 9:45 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
. . . this feels like it was written by/for some conservative jerks? Kids these days relay on technology too much and their brains aren't fully formed yet, so they're turned into unwitting traitors by a collectivist (woke?) mind virus?
posted by Garm at 12:24 AM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Garm at 12:24 AM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's exactly how I read it. It's not the biggest reason I hated the episode, but it's probably responsible for why the episode pissed me off so much.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:27 AM on April 21, 2023
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:27 AM on April 21, 2023
. . . this feels like it was written by/for some conservative jerks? Kids these days relay on technology too much and their brains aren't fully formed yet, so they're turned into unwitting traitors by a collectivist (woke?) mind virus?
I'm usually right on the knife edge of taking offense at anti-liberal themes, perceived or actual, in any media, but this did not occur to me at all here. Maybe it's because, in the moment, I viewed it as just a direct narrative mechanism to put the Greyhairs at the center of the action. Or maybe it's because, by the time of that reveal, the season had already made it pretty clear (to me at least) that it did not intend for us to take it especially seriously, and did not intend to delve into Issues.
Of course, had we gotten a speech emphasizing how the Collective is all about "full, true equality" from the Queen or any of the Borgic Youth, then I'd have read it that way for sure—and likely been enraged enough to require somebody else to post the last PIC FF thread. YMMV, I guess. I know nothing about the politics/assholery of Matalas or anybody else in the creative team.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:24 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm usually right on the knife edge of taking offense at anti-liberal themes, perceived or actual, in any media, but this did not occur to me at all here. Maybe it's because, in the moment, I viewed it as just a direct narrative mechanism to put the Greyhairs at the center of the action. Or maybe it's because, by the time of that reveal, the season had already made it pretty clear (to me at least) that it did not intend for us to take it especially seriously, and did not intend to delve into Issues.
Of course, had we gotten a speech emphasizing how the Collective is all about "full, true equality" from the Queen or any of the Borgic Youth, then I'd have read it that way for sure—and likely been enraged enough to require somebody else to post the last PIC FF thread. YMMV, I guess. I know nothing about the politics/assholery of Matalas or anybody else in the creative team.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:24 AM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hey, Cheeses of Brazil, I just wanted to say I’m glad you did still post the finale thread and thank you for posting all these. This was the first time I got to watch in real time. I really appreciate your hard work.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:15 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:15 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
I haven't and won't watch the finale, so I don't really understand how that changed the subtext?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:45 PM on April 25, 2023
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:45 PM on April 25, 2023
Mod note: A few deleted. Let's refrain from discussing the finale in this thread.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:36 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:36 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have so many questions about how and why the Borg and these Founders teamed up with each other but I'll wait until the next episode to see if they answer any of it. The Enterprise-D vs Starfleet shouldn't take very long so hopefully they'll be able to provide some explanations.
I was quite disappointed when they killed Shaw. I probably wouldn't watch a spin-off show with him but he was a fun character who unfortunately didn't have the plot armour of everyone else.
So much of this show is so bad but there are also parts like Data placing his hand on Picard's shoulder, or Geordi telling Data his feelings that are quite good. I get that from a narrative standpoint having the TNG crew just sit and talk with each other for 10 episodes wouldn't be good TV but couldn't there have been something lower stakes that would still get them all together onto the bridge of that ship? Make Jack a normal person but still have him and Beverley be in trouble. Picard and Riker go to help but they have no ship of their own so still need to trade on their reputations and calling in favours. Eventually they go to Geordi at the museum and he can't give them one of the exhibits but hey, he's been working on restoring the Enterprise-D so let's take that instead. Maybe there's still a changeling story in there and when they go to Daystrom to look into that they can still meet up with Data. Have them get stuck in the Nebula and witness it giving birth. There should be something like that every other episode to help reinforce that there is value in exploring and witnessing new things.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:29 PM on April 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was quite disappointed when they killed Shaw. I probably wouldn't watch a spin-off show with him but he was a fun character who unfortunately didn't have the plot armour of everyone else.
So much of this show is so bad but there are also parts like Data placing his hand on Picard's shoulder, or Geordi telling Data his feelings that are quite good. I get that from a narrative standpoint having the TNG crew just sit and talk with each other for 10 episodes wouldn't be good TV but couldn't there have been something lower stakes that would still get them all together onto the bridge of that ship? Make Jack a normal person but still have him and Beverley be in trouble. Picard and Riker go to help but they have no ship of their own so still need to trade on their reputations and calling in favours. Eventually they go to Geordi at the museum and he can't give them one of the exhibits but hey, he's been working on restoring the Enterprise-D so let's take that instead. Maybe there's still a changeling story in there and when they go to Daystrom to look into that they can still meet up with Data. Have them get stuck in the Nebula and witness it giving birth. There should be something like that every other episode to help reinforce that there is value in exploring and witnessing new things.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:29 PM on April 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Set course to the fanwank sector of lazyscript system!
Beam Ignatius J. Reilly to the bridge, with phasers set to KILL
ffs this was AWFUL. AW-FUL.
posted by lalochezia at 6:14 PM on May 19, 2023
Beam Ignatius J. Reilly to the bridge, with phasers set to KILL
ffs this was AWFUL. AW-FUL.
posted by lalochezia at 6:14 PM on May 19, 2023
> Jack's plan seemed a bit underdeveloped. What did he think was going to happen?Yet somehow not as underdeveloped as Picard et al.'s plan for containing him.
TROI: From this moment we must treat Jack as dangerous. We know that he can easily mind-control or overpower a team of armed guards. And on top of that, he's emotionally unstable, prone to rash outbursts. How shall we proceed?(For those playing along at home, the actual correct backup to have standing outside would be Data with a hypospray of anesthizine.)
PICARD: Well, how about I go in there and say something really upsetting to him? And then in case that doesn't work for some reason, we can post a couple of security officers outside with sidearms as backup.
WORF: Admiral, your plan is flawed.
PICARD: Oh?
WORF: Standard sidearms may be insufficient to oppose Jack. We should equip the security officers with type 3 phaser rifles to be safe.
PICARD: Ah, very good. Make it so.
posted by Syllepsis at 10:17 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Drink whenever it's the fucking Borg again.
posted by Naberius at 10:42 AM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Naberius at 10:42 AM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I seem to have completely lost patience with this show.
This is actually a pretty good plot! Using transporters to mess with people's DNA is a genuinely clever idea that hasn't been done before and in its broad strokes, the idea holds together.
The problem is that none of these characters are acting like themselves, or like they have half a brain cell. Too many frustrating plotholes.
Every scene between Jack and Picard continues to suffer from the skill difference between the two actors.
I can't help wondering how this show would hit differently if they had cast an actor as Jack who was actually 22 instead of 35 trying to play 22....someone who was sympathetic as a young person papering over insecurity with bravado (instead of simply coming off as a jackass). Someone who could actually project vulnerability and who I might believe genuinely might not be able to handle these situations.
posted by bq at 8:47 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is actually a pretty good plot! Using transporters to mess with people's DNA is a genuinely clever idea that hasn't been done before and in its broad strokes, the idea holds together.
The problem is that none of these characters are acting like themselves, or like they have half a brain cell. Too many frustrating plotholes.
Every scene between Jack and Picard continues to suffer from the skill difference between the two actors.
I can't help wondering how this show would hit differently if they had cast an actor as Jack who was actually 22 instead of 35 trying to play 22....someone who was sympathetic as a young person papering over insecurity with bravado (instead of simply coming off as a jackass). Someone who could actually project vulnerability and who I might believe genuinely might not be able to handle these situations.
posted by bq at 8:47 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just wish that when they went back aboard the Enterprise D, there had been black paper taped up all over the consoles, so Geordi says something like, "Oh sorry, didn't have time to clear all the packing material away yet."
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:00 PM on August 11
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:00 PM on August 11
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I don't think I love the irumodic syndrome being retconned out of the show, at least not so definitively. But this show never did things by halves. Season 3 even hates the previous two seasons because it thinks it knows better with regards to these characters and the plot arcs so far.
The return of the D was the least surprising thing. Geordie's explanation for rescuring the saucer from Veridian III was great. Putting it together with another drive section was cool. Tinkering with an old car/an old boat is such a classic TV trope. I bought it. And it could have been no other way - given the set up of the museum earlier in the season.
The nostalgia fest might have given me all the feels but the preceding 8 episodes and two seasons were not worth it. I cannot imagine how they wrap up satisfactorily next week.
posted by crossoverman at 5:01 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]