Star Trek: Discovery: Forget Me Not
November 5, 2020 7:23 AM - Season 3, Episode 4 - Subscribe
Burnham and Adira visit the Trill homeworld while Saru's efforts on the Discovery to help the crew reconnect yield surprises.
Memory Alpha is still, um, rediscovering its memories, so I'll fill in:
- There are multiple references in the episode to there having been no human host for a Trill; I'm going to assume that they mean no permanent, successful human host, since the first appearance of the Trill involved Will Riker temporarily becoming host (TNG, "The Host"). Riker's immune system rejected the symbiont; apparently this problem was solved by 32nd-century medical technology.
- Much of the info and background on the Trill and their relationship with the symbionts comes from DS9 and the stories involving the Dax hosts, particularly Jadzia. The Caves of Mak'ala were featured in the DS9 episode "Equilibrium" (MA article, FF post).
- Tilly's comment to Saru that the previous dinner argument was like a typical Tuesday in the household that she grew up in harkens to the trope But For Me, It Was Tuesday [TVTropes]; also, Tuesday was the day that the Enterprise-B was supposed to get the rest of its equipment in Star Trek: Generations.
Poster's Log:
This is a very, very heavy emotional episode; not much in the way of action (those Trill guards must not be joined, otherwise one of their previous hosts' memories could have told them that bringing melee weapons to a fight with someone with a ranged weapon is generally a bad idea), but generally not just dealing with emotional pain but the ensuing interpersonal harm that we can do to each other as a result of bearing that pain and not being able to deal with our own, let alone anyone else's, with any sort of equanimity.
This may be the first Trek FF post in a while that I've not had any handy quotes to put up, in part because MA doesn't have them yet, but also because revisiting some of those scenes to grab the quotes is just a skosh too painful. I said something about "DetmerWatch" last week, but it turns out that Keyla was just the worst hurt, and the Stamets-Tilly split may have been the most dangerous for the ship and their mission. The resolution was generally satisfactory; instead of everyone coming back to dinner, it's just Stamets and Tilly, but Detmer is coming in for therapy, and if these problems can't be solved with a single Buster Keaton movie (anyone know which one?), it's at least a start.
Emotional trauma is also the subject of the A story, which posits what may be the most painful Trill joining possible: having your partner become joined, then watching them die, then taking on their symbiont, and therefore their memories (including the incident which killed them). No wonder Adira shied away from accessing that. I'm not sure if the quilt that Adira makes for Gray is meant as a callback to the NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt, but there's a certain amount of resonance there: meant to recall their time together, it in effect becomes Gray's shroud. I'm also not sure where they're going with Adira being able to see and talk to Gray; it's a bit like the Rite of Emergence that Ezri Dax used to summon and talk to Joran, but seemingly spontaneous and maybe permanent--it could be an artifact of being a human host, I guess. At least we have Trek's second canonical cellist, after Miles O'Brien. (Yes.)
Poster's Log, supplemental: Speaking of unanswered questions, how about that Sphere Data just sort of piping up to Saru about crew bonding possibilities? Maybe we'll do a SphereDataWatch now.
Memory Alpha is still, um, rediscovering its memories, so I'll fill in:
- There are multiple references in the episode to there having been no human host for a Trill; I'm going to assume that they mean no permanent, successful human host, since the first appearance of the Trill involved Will Riker temporarily becoming host (TNG, "The Host"). Riker's immune system rejected the symbiont; apparently this problem was solved by 32nd-century medical technology.
- Much of the info and background on the Trill and their relationship with the symbionts comes from DS9 and the stories involving the Dax hosts, particularly Jadzia. The Caves of Mak'ala were featured in the DS9 episode "Equilibrium" (MA article, FF post).
- Tilly's comment to Saru that the previous dinner argument was like a typical Tuesday in the household that she grew up in harkens to the trope But For Me, It Was Tuesday [TVTropes]; also, Tuesday was the day that the Enterprise-B was supposed to get the rest of its equipment in Star Trek: Generations.
Poster's Log:
This is a very, very heavy emotional episode; not much in the way of action (those Trill guards must not be joined, otherwise one of their previous hosts' memories could have told them that bringing melee weapons to a fight with someone with a ranged weapon is generally a bad idea), but generally not just dealing with emotional pain but the ensuing interpersonal harm that we can do to each other as a result of bearing that pain and not being able to deal with our own, let alone anyone else's, with any sort of equanimity.
This may be the first Trek FF post in a while that I've not had any handy quotes to put up, in part because MA doesn't have them yet, but also because revisiting some of those scenes to grab the quotes is just a skosh too painful. I said something about "DetmerWatch" last week, but it turns out that Keyla was just the worst hurt, and the Stamets-Tilly split may have been the most dangerous for the ship and their mission. The resolution was generally satisfactory; instead of everyone coming back to dinner, it's just Stamets and Tilly, but Detmer is coming in for therapy, and if these problems can't be solved with a single Buster Keaton movie (anyone know which one?), it's at least a start.
Emotional trauma is also the subject of the A story, which posits what may be the most painful Trill joining possible: having your partner become joined, then watching them die, then taking on their symbiont, and therefore their memories (including the incident which killed them). No wonder Adira shied away from accessing that. I'm not sure if the quilt that Adira makes for Gray is meant as a callback to the NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt, but there's a certain amount of resonance there: meant to recall their time together, it in effect becomes Gray's shroud. I'm also not sure where they're going with Adira being able to see and talk to Gray; it's a bit like the Rite of Emergence that Ezri Dax used to summon and talk to Joran, but seemingly spontaneous and maybe permanent--it could be an artifact of being a human host, I guess. At least we have Trek's second canonical cellist, after Miles O'Brien. (Yes.)
Poster's Log, supplemental: Speaking of unanswered questions, how about that Sphere Data just sort of piping up to Saru about crew bonding possibilities? Maybe we'll do a SphereDataWatch now.
I can’t shake the feeling that this episode was about a TV writer’s room trying to reconnect with a franchise’s past series, and a brand new showrunner trying to improve morale on a project with a volatile history.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:34 AM on November 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:34 AM on November 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
That would work as one layer of it, yeah.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:51 AM on November 5, 2020
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:51 AM on November 5, 2020
I haven't seen the episode yet and don't mind spoilers, but can anyone tell me if Adira is still being (potentially) misgendered in this episode? I found it unexpectedly distressing last week and want to mentally/emotionally prepare.
posted by fight or flight at 7:59 AM on November 5, 2020
posted by fight or flight at 7:59 AM on November 5, 2020
The character is still being referred to as “she” in this episode. But according to the IO9 article:
Actor Blu del Barrio confirmed in a recent Syfy Wire interview that Adira was not being misgendered when referred to with she/her pronouns in last week’s episode. “Adira is non-binary, even when people are using she/they pronouns for Adira because they have not shared their identity with the Discovery crew,” the actor said. “This was basically the case because I still wasn’t really out to my family and I didn’t want to be out on screen as a character who was out until I was.” Presumably, now that Adira has officially “become” Adira Tal and connected to their symbiont, going forward they’ll be referred to by their chosen pronouns, and we’ll be doing that same in Discovery recaps.posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:08 AM on November 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
Thanks 1970s Antihero. I had seen Adira exclusively referred to as they/them even in official promotional stuff and had thought those were the correct pronouns and that plus the slightly clumsy writing around it last episode set off some personal Feels. If Adira choses to also use binary pronouns that's cool too, but there was some disconnect there. Hopefully it will be better going forward.
posted by fight or flight at 9:41 AM on November 5, 2020
posted by fight or flight at 9:41 AM on November 5, 2020
fight or flight, I had / have an idea, reinforced a bit by this episode?, of what they might have been / will be doing. Possibly a bit offputting.
In all the promotional materials, the nonbinary performer Blu del Barrio, is referred to with their preferred real life pronouns.
But as we noticed last week and this week, everyone has been hitting the 'she' pretty hard in talking to Adira, to the point where you're supposed to notice it.
I wonder if, now that Adira the human with the closed off Host, has become Adira _Tal_, integrated with their expanded consciousness, will start being referred to as 'they'?
Might they use Tal to explore 'I'm more than that narrow definition now'?
This is only our second Trill, so there might be ways to explore the character and the issues and the lore that get it all mixed up.
It's possible that I'm thinking this way because of a bit of beta canon, that the writers may have used too, since Trill canon info is limited.
It also might explain the visualized presence of Gray at the end.
In one of the Trek comics, (yes there are comics), we follow another Joined Trill, Ezri Dax, on an adventure. During which, as they are relevant / called upon, the (no clearer way to put it) 'Force ghosts' of previous Daxes appear over her shoulder to advise Ezri.
Torias the pilot gives navigation advice; confronted with a technical obstacle, Tobin the engineer shows her how to reroute through the secondary EPS conduits, etc.
All this as a way of visually representing how 'I have access to all my previous incarnations' might work. If you're lucky, you've got a Dax for that. Or a Tal. That you can have a mental conversation with.
So it's possible that we'll see more of not just Gray giving cello lessons, but Senna and the other Tal circle members appearing to Adira going forward.
posted by bartleby at 11:20 AM on November 5, 2020
In all the promotional materials, the nonbinary performer Blu del Barrio, is referred to with their preferred real life pronouns.
But as we noticed last week and this week, everyone has been hitting the 'she' pretty hard in talking to Adira, to the point where you're supposed to notice it.
I wonder if, now that Adira the human with the closed off Host, has become Adira _Tal_, integrated with their expanded consciousness, will start being referred to as 'they'?
Might they use Tal to explore 'I'm more than that narrow definition now'?
This is only our second Trill, so there might be ways to explore the character and the issues and the lore that get it all mixed up.
It's possible that I'm thinking this way because of a bit of beta canon, that the writers may have used too, since Trill canon info is limited.
It also might explain the visualized presence of Gray at the end.
In one of the Trek comics, (yes there are comics), we follow another Joined Trill, Ezri Dax, on an adventure. During which, as they are relevant / called upon, the (no clearer way to put it) 'Force ghosts' of previous Daxes appear over her shoulder to advise Ezri.
Torias the pilot gives navigation advice; confronted with a technical obstacle, Tobin the engineer shows her how to reroute through the secondary EPS conduits, etc.
All this as a way of visually representing how 'I have access to all my previous incarnations' might work. If you're lucky, you've got a Dax for that. Or a Tal. That you can have a mental conversation with.
So it's possible that we'll see more of not just Gray giving cello lessons, but Senna and the other Tal circle members appearing to Adira going forward.
posted by bartleby at 11:20 AM on November 5, 2020
Also, on seeing the xray, I didn't think that's where the symbiote went. I don't know why. Maybe I thought a space slug the size of a human liver would go for bilateral symmetry and coil up on the left side? But I suppose the spinal column makes more sense.
posted by bartleby at 11:26 AM on November 5, 2020
posted by bartleby at 11:26 AM on November 5, 2020
Fair play: this series makes me grouchy because I have an lizard-brain reaction to rank structure, timing, and "but you told me X five years ago, why are you assuming now Y?" continuity, even if it's the rules for my local public library.
But why the hell is Culber part of senior staff dinners but not the CMO?
"Tilly, you're one of the two finest minds on this ship..." a half dozen career LTC/CDRs are shitting themselves with irritation.
Now that I think about it, why isn't Tilly more often told to sit down, shut up, and work on her quals? (or, being less directly pedantic as though Disco is a modern naval vessel) why aren't there a cadre of officers between her and the command staff?
"The host pool was decimated..." A) okay, so that's 10%. Because words have meaning. But fine. B) wasn't there an entire pair/trio of eps in the series (DS9) that pointed out that most Trill could take a symbiont?
Okay okay. Nitpicks aside.
I would be curious to know how _terribly_ fake-earnest this show sounds without the music. Because even with the music telling me how I _should_ feel... it still seems stilted in a way that even 90's Wil Wheaton's gotta' be thinking: "Dudes. Maybe a bit more realism in the performance might not be bad?"
posted by Seeba at 11:27 AM on November 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
But why the hell is Culber part of senior staff dinners but not the CMO?
"Tilly, you're one of the two finest minds on this ship..." a half dozen career LTC/CDRs are shitting themselves with irritation.
Now that I think about it, why isn't Tilly more often told to sit down, shut up, and work on her quals? (or, being less directly pedantic as though Disco is a modern naval vessel) why aren't there a cadre of officers between her and the command staff?
"The host pool was decimated..." A) okay, so that's 10%. Because words have meaning. But fine. B) wasn't there an entire pair/trio of eps in the series (DS9) that pointed out that most Trill could take a symbiont?
Okay okay. Nitpicks aside.
I would be curious to know how _terribly_ fake-earnest this show sounds without the music. Because even with the music telling me how I _should_ feel... it still seems stilted in a way that even 90's Wil Wheaton's gotta' be thinking: "Dudes. Maybe a bit more realism in the performance might not be bad?"
posted by Seeba at 11:27 AM on November 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
Now that I think about it, why is Culber complaining to the Captain instead of his boss?
... I'm open to any answer that doesn't include the words "opening credits".
posted by Seeba at 11:29 AM on November 5, 2020
... I'm open to any answer that doesn't include the words "opening credits".
posted by Seeba at 11:29 AM on November 5, 2020
why is Culber complaining to the Captain instead of his boss?
Complaining? He's reporting. Saru wanted a report on the health of the crew. The CMO might have had better things to do.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was surprised at how big the symbiote was! I can't remember if they were that big in DS9, I guess it's been a while since I watched it.
In follow up to my earlier comments: this episode felt much better w/r/t the pronouns thing. I'm still a little wary because I've always been frustrated by the Trek fandom shorthand of Trill = trans/non-binary person (which is not a thing! Symbiotes are genderless! That doesn't make the host trans or non-binary! The trans experience does not involve giant space slugs!) but I have faith it would be handled sensitively by the show at least. I have, like, negative amounts of faith in the fandom being able to accept it.
Also I had A Lot of Feelings about Gray and Adira's conversation about post-Joining state of mind, since it mirrored a lot of the conversations I've been having with myself and my partner through my own transition (will I still be me? Or more me? Am I me or are the hormones I'm taking me? etc). I'm so glad Gray is going to continue to be in the show from now on because oh man does it feel good to see a trans guy in Trek, finally, after so long. We exist in the future! And we're doing ok!
posted by fight or flight at 11:39 AM on November 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
Complaining? He's reporting. Saru wanted a report on the health of the crew. The CMO might have had better things to do.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was surprised at how big the symbiote was! I can't remember if they were that big in DS9, I guess it's been a while since I watched it.
In follow up to my earlier comments: this episode felt much better w/r/t the pronouns thing. I'm still a little wary because I've always been frustrated by the Trek fandom shorthand of Trill = trans/non-binary person (which is not a thing! Symbiotes are genderless! That doesn't make the host trans or non-binary! The trans experience does not involve giant space slugs!) but I have faith it would be handled sensitively by the show at least. I have, like, negative amounts of faith in the fandom being able to accept it.
Also I had A Lot of Feelings about Gray and Adira's conversation about post-Joining state of mind, since it mirrored a lot of the conversations I've been having with myself and my partner through my own transition (will I still be me? Or more me? Am I me or are the hormones I'm taking me? etc). I'm so glad Gray is going to continue to be in the show from now on because oh man does it feel good to see a trans guy in Trek, finally, after so long. We exist in the future! And we're doing ok!
posted by fight or flight at 11:39 AM on November 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
Seeba, I'm thinking that with the skeleton crew that went through the wormhole, Culber IS now the CMO? He's referred to multiple times as 'the ship's Medical Officer' and outranks the other doctor we've seen.
(Which you wouldn't know without freeze-framing because THE RANK PIPS ARE TOO DAMN SMALL to be seen at anything further than arm's length.)
Also probably going to keep Adira Tal out of SF uniform, since Disco's 4 stripe girl, 5 stripe boy, uniforms would pose an issue.
And no one has used decimated properly since way before literally became figuratively.
posted by bartleby at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
(Which you wouldn't know without freeze-framing because THE RANK PIPS ARE TOO DAMN SMALL to be seen at anything further than arm's length.)
Also probably going to keep Adira Tal out of SF uniform, since Disco's 4 stripe girl, 5 stripe boy, uniforms would pose an issue.
And no one has used decimated properly since way before literally became figuratively.
posted by bartleby at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
"Tilly, you're one of the two finest minds on this ship..." a half dozen career LTC/CDRs are shitting themselves with irritation.
Now that I think about it, why isn't Tilly more often told to sit down, shut up, and work on her quals? (or, being less directly pedantic as though Disco is a modern naval vessel) why aren't there a cadre of officers between her and the command staff?
Because Space Navy is not the U.S. Navy; not even really close. TNG had a child at the helm of Starfleet's flagship. Ensign Harry Kim didn't get a promotion in seven years of the sort of harrowing duty that your average officer couldn't imagine.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2020 [11 favorites]
Now that I think about it, why isn't Tilly more often told to sit down, shut up, and work on her quals? (or, being less directly pedantic as though Disco is a modern naval vessel) why aren't there a cadre of officers between her and the command staff?
Because Space Navy is not the U.S. Navy; not even really close. TNG had a child at the helm of Starfleet's flagship. Ensign Harry Kim didn't get a promotion in seven years of the sort of harrowing duty that your average officer couldn't imagine.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2020 [11 favorites]
Disco's 4 stripe girl, 5 stripe boy, uniforms would pose an issue
AFAIK the uniform stripes are based on shoulder width, not gender? At least that was what I was told last time I saw discussion about it, there might have been more recent findings. It seems weird that the costume department would make a gendered choice like that given the show's general inclusiveness.
posted by fight or flight at 12:07 PM on November 5, 2020
AFAIK the uniform stripes are based on shoulder width, not gender? At least that was what I was told last time I saw discussion about it, there might have been more recent findings. It seems weird that the costume department would make a gendered choice like that given the show's general inclusiveness.
posted by fight or flight at 12:07 PM on November 5, 2020
I definitely noticed Adira saying "they" I believe referring to the symbiont.
wasn't there an entire pair/trio of eps in the series (DS9) that pointed out that most Trill could take a symbiont?
I would have just assumed that The Burn had an effect on this; I thought the Trill we saw alluded to it, but that could have just been to many of the Trill potential hosts dying.
posted by supercres at 12:21 PM on November 5, 2020
wasn't there an entire pair/trio of eps in the series (DS9) that pointed out that most Trill could take a symbiont?
I would have just assumed that The Burn had an effect on this; I thought the Trill we saw alluded to it, but that could have just been to many of the Trill potential hosts dying.
posted by supercres at 12:21 PM on November 5, 2020
I just started watching the episode, but Doug Jones is so, so good in this show. I keep wanting to say that every episode. Perfect captain.
posted by Catblack at 1:44 PM on November 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 1:44 PM on November 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
Does Discovery not have transporters anymore, or has Michael's gap-year made her mistrustful of 1,000 year old technology?
posted by Marticus at 4:35 PM on November 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Marticus at 4:35 PM on November 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Does Discovery not have transporters anymore, or has Michael's gap-year made her mistrustful of 1,000 year old technology?
Originally on TNG a joined Trill couldn’t use the transporter because of their unique physiology, but that was later retconned in DS9. I wonder if the use of a shuttle might be a nod to that retcon — the transporters on a Discovery-era ship might not be able to safely transport a joined Trill.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:00 PM on November 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Originally on TNG a joined Trill couldn’t use the transporter because of their unique physiology, but that was later retconned in DS9. I wonder if the use of a shuttle might be a nod to that retcon — the transporters on a Discovery-era ship might not be able to safely transport a joined Trill.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:00 PM on November 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I had to pause at the symbiont/trill numbers that the Trill were saying - historically in DS9 there was a vast overpopulation of Trill hosts vying for a symbiont placement, and I'd have been perfectly ready to accept that the bulk of joined symbionts either died or were cut off from the Trill home planet during the Burn, but the phrasing in the episode suggested they had an overpopulation of symbionts on Trill and insufficient hosts for all of them.
posted by Kyol at 6:04 PM on November 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
- "Our apologies. Every Trill longs to be a host. Few ever receive the honor. The Burn decimated our population, particularly those capable of joining. We no longer have enough viable hosts."
posted by Kyol at 6:04 PM on November 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
Kyol, you have it right. If that quote was 'not enough viable symbiotes', it might have made more direct sense.
If the majority of joined Trill go offworld, that means the majority of symbiotes are offworld too, during the Burn.
But thinking about it, since my sense was that Joining was an honor usually reserved for Nobel and Olympic medalist types for known Trill history, that a lot of hominid Trill normies would take off for space for their chance at adventures too.
Maybe both parts experienced a population / biodiversity crash?
Anyway, a shortage of hosts gives Starfleet something to offer the Trill homeworld. If they had made a point of saying the problem was symbiotes, we'd have had to deal with that council saying 'fuck no, we're not going to let you just take one of our few remaining ancestors away'.
posted by bartleby at 6:32 PM on November 5, 2020
If the majority of joined Trill go offworld, that means the majority of symbiotes are offworld too, during the Burn.
But thinking about it, since my sense was that Joining was an honor usually reserved for Nobel and Olympic medalist types for known Trill history, that a lot of hominid Trill normies would take off for space for their chance at adventures too.
Maybe both parts experienced a population / biodiversity crash?
Anyway, a shortage of hosts gives Starfleet something to offer the Trill homeworld. If they had made a point of saying the problem was symbiotes, we'd have had to deal with that council saying 'fuck no, we're not going to let you just take one of our few remaining ancestors away'.
posted by bartleby at 6:32 PM on November 5, 2020
This is the episode I've liked best of season 3 so far. I like it when you have two strong stories switching back and forth. Also liked that there was more talking and character stuff and less explosions. Not a big fan though of introducing characters like Grey Tal and then killing them a few minutes later with a random asteroid, if that was what happened because it was hard to tell. And what happened to Book? They kind of intimated that he would be a main character this season, then he left.
posted by jabah at 7:46 PM on November 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by jabah at 7:46 PM on November 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I imagine that Book will probably come back in the back half of the season. Next ep looks like they catch up with what's left of the Federation/Starfleet and deal with whatever their deal is. (The ep's title is "Die Trying", which is a little ominous.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:10 PM on November 5, 2020
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:10 PM on November 5, 2020
Ensign Harry Kim didn't get a promotion in seven years of the sort of harrowing duty that your average officer couldn't imagine.
And I was sitting there asking why Tilly wasn't a LT yet, at least a LTJG! It's been at least three years for her!
That episode felt very Star Trek to me, in mostly good ways. Although I got confused as well about the discrepancy between host and symbiont numbers on Trill.
Also: was Trill never a member of the Federation before?
Also: why does Adira have such an enormous cabin? It's like the size of the gym! Frankly, a lot of rooms on Discovery are far too big. But that was ridiculous.
posted by suelac at 10:11 PM on November 5, 2020
And I was sitting there asking why Tilly wasn't a LT yet, at least a LTJG! It's been at least three years for her!
That episode felt very Star Trek to me, in mostly good ways. Although I got confused as well about the discrepancy between host and symbiont numbers on Trill.
Also: was Trill never a member of the Federation before?
Also: why does Adira have such an enormous cabin? It's like the size of the gym! Frankly, a lot of rooms on Discovery are far too big. But that was ridiculous.
posted by suelac at 10:11 PM on November 5, 2020
Also: was Trill never a member of the Federation before?
I thought it was, but reading the Memory Alpha article, it appears that's never definitively established in canon. In any case, it easily could have left the Federation...remember Earth isn't a Federation member in 3189.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:28 PM on November 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I thought it was, but reading the Memory Alpha article, it appears that's never definitively established in canon. In any case, it easily could have left the Federation...remember Earth isn't a Federation member in 3189.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:28 PM on November 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
The memory threads on the fingertips was a very TOS aesthetic and I loved it.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:37 PM on November 5, 2020
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:37 PM on November 5, 2020
For those who like video, this ten minutes seems a pretty thorough assembly of alpha canon (shows, films) and beta canon (licensed works like novels, video games, etc) for what's known about pre-NuTrek Trill.
Cultural Index: Trill
posted by bartleby at 10:48 PM on November 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Cultural Index: Trill
posted by bartleby at 10:48 PM on November 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also: why does Adira have such an enormous cabin?
Someone put them down as a Admiral.
posted by mikelieman at 12:42 AM on November 6, 2020 [10 favorites]
Someone put them down as a Admiral.
posted by mikelieman at 12:42 AM on November 6, 2020 [10 favorites]
O my Star Trek Peeps
Go thou and watch Disc:E4
You will cry, and laugh
posted by Coaticass at 2:33 AM on November 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Go thou and watch Disc:E4
You will cry, and laugh
posted by Coaticass at 2:33 AM on November 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
The crew watching Buster Keaton for their mental health is how I felt about watching this episode.
"I never said 'Aye' but... I'm here".
posted by Coaticass at 2:35 AM on November 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
"I never said 'Aye' but... I'm here".
posted by Coaticass at 2:35 AM on November 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
Suelac- "Also: why does Adira have such an enormous cabin? It's like the size of the gym! Frankly, a lot of rooms on Discovery are far too big. But that was ridiculous."
Adira contains multitudes after all so why not make room for them? (And for all the camera people, haha.) It also enables them to use the whole bow while playing the cello!
posted by Coaticass at 2:42 AM on November 6, 2020
Adira contains multitudes after all so why not make room for them? (And for all the camera people, haha.) It also enables them to use the whole bow while playing the cello!
posted by Coaticass at 2:42 AM on November 6, 2020
I'm 90% sure that the piece Adira was playing was also in 2001: A Space Odyssey, specifically during the first scenes aboard Dave Bowman's ship, which is called…Discovery One.
The crew watching Buster Keaton for their mental health is how I felt about watching this episode.
Yeah, all that stuff in the first half about the crew feeling disconnected and needing to cope with a traumatic change…it's like, was this written pre-pandemic?! And if so, did they have time-travelling sphere data of their own?!
Although I got confused as well about the discrepancy between host and symbiont numbers on Trill.
The only way I can see to square that is that the symbionts themselves might be picky about hosts. In the 24th century, would-be hosts had to undergo pro-athlete-levels of physical and mental preparation, and while some of that may have simply been intended to create "artificial scarcity" and cut down on the oversupply of available hosts, what we know of joining does suggest that preparation and fortitude are needed, or are at least ideal from the perspective of the symbiont's safety (which is always paramount). So, too many symbionts and too few Trills does not necessarily mean every single Trill can have a symbiont.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 5:12 AM on November 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
The crew watching Buster Keaton for their mental health is how I felt about watching this episode.
Yeah, all that stuff in the first half about the crew feeling disconnected and needing to cope with a traumatic change…it's like, was this written pre-pandemic?! And if so, did they have time-travelling sphere data of their own?!
Although I got confused as well about the discrepancy between host and symbiont numbers on Trill.
The only way I can see to square that is that the symbionts themselves might be picky about hosts. In the 24th century, would-be hosts had to undergo pro-athlete-levels of physical and mental preparation, and while some of that may have simply been intended to create "artificial scarcity" and cut down on the oversupply of available hosts, what we know of joining does suggest that preparation and fortitude are needed, or are at least ideal from the perspective of the symbiont's safety (which is always paramount). So, too many symbionts and too few Trills does not necessarily mean every single Trill can have a symbiont.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 5:12 AM on November 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
The writers could easily explain the reduction in the proportion of Trill capable of joining with some kind of Burn-related illness that predominantly affected that part of the population. But maybe they've been burned (ha ha) by the reaction to the Klingon forehead retcon.
posted by confluency at 6:27 AM on November 6, 2020
posted by confluency at 6:27 AM on November 6, 2020
Most people outside of the US don't have access to previews or preview information. Is discussion of Preview info going to be the norm because I'd consider it spoilerrific, and would reluctantly have to bow out of the only DISCO conversation I have :C
posted by Faintdreams at 7:54 AM on November 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Faintdreams at 7:54 AM on November 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Flag it - non-rewatch / books included fanfare threads are normally prohibited from discussing information from previews (which may or may not show after the credits in any given region) or even IMDB data-scraping and guessing.
It gets fuzzier when linking to interviews and canon sources, so there's always a bit of a judgement call there.
posted by Kyol at 8:28 AM on November 6, 2020
It gets fuzzier when linking to interviews and canon sources, so there's always a bit of a judgement call there.
posted by Kyol at 8:28 AM on November 6, 2020
Also: why does Adira have such an enormous cabin?
Technically, they’re an Admiral. Also, the ship’s crew is depopulated.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:35 AM on November 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Technically, they’re an Admiral. Also, the ship’s crew is depopulated.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:35 AM on November 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Er, technically (pushes glasses up nose) aren't they basically a guest? Senna's commission doesn't follow the symbiote lineage. Viz f'rex Ezri was just a lieutenant junior grade, despite Jadzia having been a lieutenant commander at the time of her passing.
But yeah, Disco is flying on something like half crew. Kick off your shoes and relax. I mean, Michael isn't sharing a room with Tilly any more either, from the looks of it.
posted by Kyol at 9:39 AM on November 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
But yeah, Disco is flying on something like half crew. Kick off your shoes and relax. I mean, Michael isn't sharing a room with Tilly any more either, from the looks of it.
posted by Kyol at 9:39 AM on November 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm 90% sure that the piece Adira was playing was also in 2001: A Space Odyssey, specifically during the first scenes aboard Dave Bowman's ship, which is called…Discovery One.
Gayane Ballet Suite (Adagio)?
posted by Fukiyama at 11:56 AM on November 6, 2020
Gayane Ballet Suite (Adagio)?
posted by Fukiyama at 11:56 AM on November 6, 2020
Flag it - non-rewatch / books included fanfare threads are normally prohibited from discussing information from previews (which may or may not show after the credits in any given region) or even IMDB data-scraping and guessing.
Huh. I did not know that. I'll try to be more mindful of that in the future.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:08 PM on November 6, 2020
Huh. I did not know that. I'll try to be more mindful of that in the future.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:08 PM on November 6, 2020
It may interest my fellow non-US watchers to know the Ready Room (aftershow), is available on Facebook. Well it is in Australia, so possibly elsewhere? Usually about half an hour long. It always concludes with a preview.
posted by Coaticass at 1:50 PM on November 6, 2020
posted by Coaticass at 1:50 PM on November 6, 2020
I wonder if, now that Adira the human with the closed off Host, has become Adira _Tal_, integrated with their expanded consciousness, will start being referred to as 'they'?
This is my reading of it. For the first episode and three quarters, the character was Adira and was apparently female (certainly Adira seemed to make no objection to being referred to as she/her). We’ve only seen Adira Tal for, what, ten minutes? This character is nonbinary would be my understanding, but we haven’t seen them long enough for it to be mentioned.
Really, given the nature of the relationship between the (gendered) Trill and the (seemingly not gendered) symbionts, it kind of makes sense for this to be the way joined Trills are, but nineties TV was a loooong time ago in gender awareness. Jadzia Dax did once kiss another Trill in a female body and that was treated as groundbreaking.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:33 PM on November 6, 2020
This is my reading of it. For the first episode and three quarters, the character was Adira and was apparently female (certainly Adira seemed to make no objection to being referred to as she/her). We’ve only seen Adira Tal for, what, ten minutes? This character is nonbinary would be my understanding, but we haven’t seen them long enough for it to be mentioned.
Really, given the nature of the relationship between the (gendered) Trill and the (seemingly not gendered) symbionts, it kind of makes sense for this to be the way joined Trills are, but nineties TV was a loooong time ago in gender awareness. Jadzia Dax did once kiss another Trill in a female body and that was treated as groundbreaking.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:33 PM on November 6, 2020
We're watching on a tv with that abominable clear-view "feature" we can't turn off. I can mostly ignore how shitty that looks, but now there have been two episodes featuring a heartfelt walk & talk with Adira and a crew member, scored with treacly sub-Hallmark-movie twinkleodeon music, exacerbated by the crappy flattened way everything looks in clear-view, and I just can't fucking stand how nauseated and angry I feel in those moments.
I mostly find this show entertaining and nice-looking enough to not be too fussed about bad plotting and space magic, but those moments just obliterate my engagement. That music! Ugh! I'm embarrassed for them.
Seeing all those Trill standing there in their robes was full-on TNG throwback. Nice seeing Ronnie from Schitt's Creek getting staying busy.
They had to take the shuttle to the planet so they'd have a plausible reason to know they were going the wrong way when Badtrill was leading them astray.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 1:50 AM on November 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
I mostly find this show entertaining and nice-looking enough to not be too fussed about bad plotting and space magic, but those moments just obliterate my engagement. That music! Ugh! I'm embarrassed for them.
Seeing all those Trill standing there in their robes was full-on TNG throwback. Nice seeing Ronnie from Schitt's Creek getting staying busy.
They had to take the shuttle to the planet so they'd have a plausible reason to know they were going the wrong way when Badtrill was leading them astray.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 1:50 AM on November 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
A little food for thought…more relevant to DS9 than anything, and written before this ep came out, but here it is anyhow:
"The Problem with the Trill Is the Problem with 'Star Trek'" (themarysue.com)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:45 AM on November 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
"The Problem with the Trill Is the Problem with 'Star Trek'" (themarysue.com)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:45 AM on November 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
Haha, nah, I of course get that Space Navy =//= modern Navy, but still can't help but try to wrap my head around "what about _everybody else_ aboard the ship that's not a named character?"
It's such a weird (though understandablish from a production standpoint) glaring hole when otherwise they could have written the ship to operate with only-the-main-cast. Hell, save budget by not having other crew members... but since you have them... we see so many other people as basically-background-art... but somehow miss that they would also have their own careers, development, place in the rank/command/organisational structure etc... which is why the refocus to Burnham-As-The-One in so many episodes seems irritatingly lazy to me.
... also yes. Harry Kim must have had some shit in his file, haha
posted by Seeba at 7:06 AM on November 7, 2020
It's such a weird (though understandablish from a production standpoint) glaring hole when otherwise they could have written the ship to operate with only-the-main-cast. Hell, save budget by not having other crew members... but since you have them... we see so many other people as basically-background-art... but somehow miss that they would also have their own careers, development, place in the rank/command/organisational structure etc... which is why the refocus to Burnham-As-The-One in so many episodes seems irritatingly lazy to me.
... also yes. Harry Kim must have had some shit in his file, haha
posted by Seeba at 7:06 AM on November 7, 2020
I mean, you could make the case that having a character who has never actually been the captain be the focus of the show is in itself kind of an endorsement of that idea. (plus, of course, Lower Decks is explicitly about that.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:07 AM on November 7, 2020
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:07 AM on November 7, 2020
Just watched this and silent movie scene is like today’s calling the election for Biden moment. I feel like I’ve gone a thousand years into the future and everything I loved was long gone, but finally there’s a moment of release.
posted by snofoam at 11:40 AM on November 7, 2020
posted by snofoam at 11:40 AM on November 7, 2020
I see now how the "Calypso" Short Trek set us up for the Discovery's computer becoming truly sentient, starting with this episode.
posted by Mogur at 12:58 PM on November 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 12:58 PM on November 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
The Calypso timeline math makes my head hurt.
Has anyone noticed that one of the shuttles is missing?
Are the crew going to find a way back to the 23rd century, leaving the ship behind, with Disco waiting for 'her crew' to return the long way around to the 33rd?
Or did the inorganic ship go through the timehole instantaneously, while the living crew took a thousand years to materialize on the other side? And it got sentient and bored waiting for them to catch up?
posted by bartleby at 4:01 PM on November 7, 2020
Has anyone noticed that one of the shuttles is missing?
Are the crew going to find a way back to the 23rd century, leaving the ship behind, with Disco waiting for 'her crew' to return the long way around to the 33rd?
Or did the inorganic ship go through the timehole instantaneously, while the living crew took a thousand years to materialize on the other side? And it got sentient and bored waiting for them to catch up?
posted by bartleby at 4:01 PM on November 7, 2020
The Buster Keaton movie is Sherlock, Junior. I show that exact scene to my introductory communication classes when we discuss non-verbals.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:04 PM on November 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:04 PM on November 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
I LOVED this episode -- the various plots (Adira and Michael, the crew as a whole, Detmer, Stamets and Tilly) all being INCREDIBLY TREK in this core theme: you have to face your pain, and connect with others, to move through and past it. You can't deny and clench your way through recovery from trauma. It was like the TNG ep "Family".
You know that bit from Enterprise?
posted by brainwane at 5:42 AM on November 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
You know that bit from Enterprise?
the most profound discoveries are not necessarily beyond that next star. They're within us, woven into the threads that bind us, all of us, to each other. A final frontier begins in this hall. Let's explore it together.I got that from this episode -- the way that connection with each other is vital to healing and progress.
posted by brainwane at 5:42 AM on November 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
I was also confused about why there weren't enough Trill hosts for all the symbionts given that DS9 established that most any Trill could be a host. It's almost as if the writers of this episode didn't watch that one.
Maybe: in DS9, Trill elites conspired to keep alive the false theory that most Trills couldn't be hosts. The implication at the end of that episode was that Jadzia blew the conspiracy wide open. But maybe her expose didn't take. Maybe Trills continued believing that only a select few could be joined, and that story survived for a thousand years, to the point of dooming the society.
posted by painquale at 6:42 PM on November 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Maybe: in DS9, Trill elites conspired to keep alive the false theory that most Trills couldn't be hosts. The implication at the end of that episode was that Jadzia blew the conspiracy wide open. But maybe her expose didn't take. Maybe Trills continued believing that only a select few could be joined, and that story survived for a thousand years, to the point of dooming the society.
posted by painquale at 6:42 PM on November 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm still confused about where we're going with genders for Tal and their hosts. Can someone make this simple for me? Or maybe it's not supposed to be simple.
Blu del Barrio, the actor playing Adira, is non-binary in real life. They/them.
Ian Alexander, the actor playing Gray, is a transgender man in real life. He/him.
Human Adira pre-joining is referred to as "she" by Gray.
Joined Adira Tal is being referred to as "she" by everyone.
We never see Trill host Gray pre-joining (do we?).
Joined Gray Tal is referred to as "he" by Adira.
I don't know if Trill symbiotes alone have gender.
I think that's all correct? What's confusing me is none of these characters are non-binary or transgender, at least not explicitly so in the narrative. But various bits of press coverage have said Blu's character is non-binary and Ian's character is transgender. Great! Are they going to make that be explicit? Will those be something like the human experience of those gender identities?
I'd like this show to have an ordinary human transgender character. Or a non-binary character. We finally got there with gay characters on this show and it is a huge relief. Keep pushing that envelope.
But I'm also hoping for something more sci-fi, where they explore the complications of joined-Trill sexuality and gender. Tell a deeply queer story with a joined species that has experiences of sexuality well beyond what any real world human can ever have. I kind of feel like they tried to get there with Jadzia Dax over time in DS9, her lusty embrace of all her previous hosts, some of whom were quite promiscuous. But as folks said above 90s Trek was a bit handcuffed by the ignorance of the times and couldn't do a lot of interesting gender storytelling. And of course the Trill episode from TNG "The Host" made a total mess of it.
Gender analysis aside both del Barrio and Alexander are great actors and I've really enjoyed watching them. Also important their character gets to be an ordinary crew member and not just the gender atypical mascot.
posted by Nelson at 10:32 AM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Blu del Barrio, the actor playing Adira, is non-binary in real life. They/them.
Ian Alexander, the actor playing Gray, is a transgender man in real life. He/him.
Human Adira pre-joining is referred to as "she" by Gray.
Joined Adira Tal is being referred to as "she" by everyone.
We never see Trill host Gray pre-joining (do we?).
Joined Gray Tal is referred to as "he" by Adira.
I don't know if Trill symbiotes alone have gender.
I think that's all correct? What's confusing me is none of these characters are non-binary or transgender, at least not explicitly so in the narrative. But various bits of press coverage have said Blu's character is non-binary and Ian's character is transgender. Great! Are they going to make that be explicit? Will those be something like the human experience of those gender identities?
I'd like this show to have an ordinary human transgender character. Or a non-binary character. We finally got there with gay characters on this show and it is a huge relief. Keep pushing that envelope.
But I'm also hoping for something more sci-fi, where they explore the complications of joined-Trill sexuality and gender. Tell a deeply queer story with a joined species that has experiences of sexuality well beyond what any real world human can ever have. I kind of feel like they tried to get there with Jadzia Dax over time in DS9, her lusty embrace of all her previous hosts, some of whom were quite promiscuous. But as folks said above 90s Trek was a bit handcuffed by the ignorance of the times and couldn't do a lot of interesting gender storytelling. And of course the Trill episode from TNG "The Host" made a total mess of it.
Gender analysis aside both del Barrio and Alexander are great actors and I've really enjoyed watching them. Also important their character gets to be an ordinary crew member and not just the gender atypical mascot.
posted by Nelson at 10:32 AM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
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posted by Halloween Jack at 7:26 AM on November 5, 2020