This American Life: #545: If You Don't Have Anything Nice to Say, SAY IT IN ALL CAPS
January 25, 2015 8:48 PM - Subscribe
The Internet is the one place where it's safe to say whatever you want — nobody will know it's you. But the same protections that make commenters invulnerable are what make the Internet scary — even downright dangerous — for the commented upon. In this week's show: what happens when the Internet turns on you?
Lindy West's story about her troll was quite extraordinary. I would have really liked to have understood exactly what caused him to change so much, though - but like her, I have no reason to doubt his sincerity. Also, her line about Heaven - "Go and play chocolate badminton on a cloud with Jerry Orbach and your childhood cat" - made me laugh out loud in the street.
The stuff about vocal fry is fascinating on the misogyny level, really.
posted by crossoverman at 2:20 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
The stuff about vocal fry is fascinating on the misogyny level, really.
posted by crossoverman at 2:20 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
The part about it making me anxious was a joke. I took the joke down because people weren't getting the joke. It wasn't making me anxious it just was buggy and on a balky Web server and never intended to be a website for more than two or three people. They fact-checked the story and I was very clear about the status of the project; also the source code is available on github if anyone needs to see how the code works before I relaunch the site.
posted by ftrain at 4:02 AM on January 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by ftrain at 4:02 AM on January 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
Hey, MeFi's own!
The vocal fry thing stood out for me too. I'd started noticing it a few years ago and being irritated by it, but TAL is right -- I was only noticing it in young women, and it's always only the vocal stylings of young women that is policed. I had recently noticed how many men have vocal fry, and wondered why it hadn't been an issue with me before, and I thought, well, it's because we associate deep voiced with me, etc. but I think the heart of it is that we police women in. Way we don't police men, and it's shitty, and I won't do if anymore.
posted by maxsparber at 5:39 AM on January 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
The vocal fry thing stood out for me too. I'd started noticing it a few years ago and being irritated by it, but TAL is right -- I was only noticing it in young women, and it's always only the vocal stylings of young women that is policed. I had recently noticed how many men have vocal fry, and wondered why it hadn't been an issue with me before, and I thought, well, it's because we associate deep voiced with me, etc. but I think the heart of it is that we police women in. Way we don't police men, and it's shitty, and I won't do if anymore.
posted by maxsparber at 5:39 AM on January 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've always loved Lindy's work - she's SO funny and fearless and self-assured - but her segment this week was really extraordinary. It made me laugh (her depiction of heaven!), it delivered a few right-hooks right to the solar plexus (her description of her father's death), it went to a rare and amazing place and attained a sort of warped grace.
posted by julthumbscrew at 7:54 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by julthumbscrew at 7:54 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Loved the song by her father at the end. What a great gift for a child.
posted by roger ackroyd at 9:46 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by roger ackroyd at 9:46 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Lindy West's account of the troll was really amazing, I'm glad they said they fact-checked it, because honestly, the answers were such dream responses that I was almost suspicious. The troll was articulating the motivations for his misogyny better than most critics of online misogyny.
posted by skewed at 12:41 PM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by skewed at 12:41 PM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
The vocal fry thing stood out for me too. I'd started noticing it a few years ago and being irritated by it, but TAL is right -- I was only noticing it in young women, and it's always only the vocal stylings of young women that is policed. I had recently noticed how many men have vocal fry, and wondered why it hadn't been an issue with me before, and I thought, well, it's because we associate deep voiced with me, etc. but I think the heart of it is that we police women in. Way we don't police men, and it's shitty, and I won't do if anymore.
posted by maxsparber at 8:39 AM on January 26 [3 favorites −] [!]
Yeah I notice this policing of young women's voices going on in Invisibilia's facebook feed and even here in the various threads about their show. I haven't made up my mind about whether I want to keep on listening with them yet, because of content. But I think it's super telling that the comments about a podcast run by two young women is largely getting flak for sounding like it's being made by two young women. Whenever I hear someone whining about vocal fry it reminds me of growing up listening to a bunch of news reporters mocking an "epidemic" of teenage girls saying 'like' as a filler word, instead of 'ummm' or 'uh' during the nineties. These news segments that largely just consisted of a male reporter making jokes at the expensive of random set of teenage girls they had filmed at a mall. This sort of policing is just a gross activity to engage in.
posted by edbles at 12:51 PM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 8:39 AM on January 26 [3 favorites −] [!]
Yeah I notice this policing of young women's voices going on in Invisibilia's facebook feed and even here in the various threads about their show. I haven't made up my mind about whether I want to keep on listening with them yet, because of content. But I think it's super telling that the comments about a podcast run by two young women is largely getting flak for sounding like it's being made by two young women. Whenever I hear someone whining about vocal fry it reminds me of growing up listening to a bunch of news reporters mocking an "epidemic" of teenage girls saying 'like' as a filler word, instead of 'ummm' or 'uh' during the nineties. These news segments that largely just consisted of a male reporter making jokes at the expensive of random set of teenage girls they had filmed at a mall. This sort of policing is just a gross activity to engage in.
posted by edbles at 12:51 PM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
. I'd started noticing it a few years ago and being irritated by it,
I was so appreciative of this piece and have harbored some suspicion for a while that it essentially comes down to nitpicking women's communication and their right to speak. I don't believe "vocal fry" is new at all, and I don't think it's ever been unique to women.
On a larger level, I'm really glad to see TAL doing an episode on topics related to sexism, particularly a reflexive one about the letters they get. I really feel they've missed the topic a lot - the Good Guy Discount episode, especially, really drove me nuts because in all the beanplating they did about the phenomenon, they never really unpacked what's at the heart of it - ease with male privilege. I hope there is more of this kind of content to come.
posted by Miko at 12:52 PM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was so appreciative of this piece and have harbored some suspicion for a while that it essentially comes down to nitpicking women's communication and their right to speak. I don't believe "vocal fry" is new at all, and I don't think it's ever been unique to women.
On a larger level, I'm really glad to see TAL doing an episode on topics related to sexism, particularly a reflexive one about the letters they get. I really feel they've missed the topic a lot - the Good Guy Discount episode, especially, really drove me nuts because in all the beanplating they did about the phenomenon, they never really unpacked what's at the heart of it - ease with male privilege. I hope there is more of this kind of content to come.
posted by Miko at 12:52 PM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
That Lindy West segment was one of the best things I've ever heard.
posted by Gin and Broadband at 3:48 PM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Gin and Broadband at 3:48 PM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
For anyone who wants to hear the entire Paul West song
https://paulwest.bandcamp.com/track/welcome-little-girl
posted by roger ackroyd at 4:03 PM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
https://paulwest.bandcamp.com/track/welcome-little-girl
posted by roger ackroyd at 4:03 PM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
We should all read the transcript from this one.
"You know, it's like you stand on the desk and you say, I'm Lindy West, and this is what I believe in. Fuck you if you don't agree with me. And even though you don't say those words exactly, I'm like, who is this bitch who thinks she knows everything?
Lindy West
I asked him if he felt that way because I'm a woman.
Man: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Women are being more forthright in their writing. There isn't a sense of timidity to when they speak or when they write. They're saying it loud. And I think that-- and I think, for me, as well, it's threatening at first.
So it was satisfying at least to hear him admit that, yeah, he hated women.
If what he said is true, that he just needed to find some meaning in his life, then what a heartbreaking diagnosis for all of the people who are still at it.
That and the vocal fry...honestly, it really does all boil down to shut up, bitches, we hate you for speaking. For existing.
And it's a good point that people who are happy with themselves don't troll. Too bad most people are miserable.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:47 PM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
"You know, it's like you stand on the desk and you say, I'm Lindy West, and this is what I believe in. Fuck you if you don't agree with me. And even though you don't say those words exactly, I'm like, who is this bitch who thinks she knows everything?
Lindy West
I asked him if he felt that way because I'm a woman.
Man: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Women are being more forthright in their writing. There isn't a sense of timidity to when they speak or when they write. They're saying it loud. And I think that-- and I think, for me, as well, it's threatening at first.
So it was satisfying at least to hear him admit that, yeah, he hated women.
If what he said is true, that he just needed to find some meaning in his life, then what a heartbreaking diagnosis for all of the people who are still at it.
That and the vocal fry...honestly, it really does all boil down to shut up, bitches, we hate you for speaking. For existing.
And it's a good point that people who are happy with themselves don't troll. Too bad most people are miserable.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:47 PM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
That and the vocal fry...honestly, it really does all boil down to shut up, bitches, we hate you for speaking. For existing.
Yeah, but what's really fucked up about it is all those think pieces that have pathologised it - making it seem like a problem/condition, as if people are diagnosed with vocal fry. I hadn't heard of it until there was a lot of discussion surrounding Sarah Koenig's voice on Serial - and, more specifically, Cristina Gutierrez's voice. Then I was reading about vocal fry as a side-effect of women trying to "deepen" their voice to sound more authoritative - and that made a kind of sense to me, because of course society would want women's voices to change.
But after this segment, it seems like it's all kinda bullshit and we should just let women speak how they speak and take them seriously because of course we should!
posted by crossoverman at 6:24 PM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, but what's really fucked up about it is all those think pieces that have pathologised it - making it seem like a problem/condition, as if people are diagnosed with vocal fry. I hadn't heard of it until there was a lot of discussion surrounding Sarah Koenig's voice on Serial - and, more specifically, Cristina Gutierrez's voice. Then I was reading about vocal fry as a side-effect of women trying to "deepen" their voice to sound more authoritative - and that made a kind of sense to me, because of course society would want women's voices to change.
But after this segment, it seems like it's all kinda bullshit and we should just let women speak how they speak and take them seriously because of course we should!
posted by crossoverman at 6:24 PM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
How can someone listening to a show hosted by Ira Glass be reaching out to complain about any OTHER voices?
(I find all of TAL's idiosyncratic, unpolished voices absolutely charming)
posted by elr at 8:32 PM on January 26, 2015
(I find all of TAL's idiosyncratic, unpolished voices absolutely charming)
posted by elr at 8:32 PM on January 26, 2015
I hadn't heard of it until there was a lot of discussion surrounding Sarah Koenig's voice on Serial - and, more specifically, Cristina Gutierrez's voice.
I don't associate Gutierrez's voice with vocal fry as much as I do with the dulcet tones of Frau Farbissina.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:37 AM on January 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't associate Gutierrez's voice with vocal fry as much as I do with the dulcet tones of Frau Farbissina.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:37 AM on January 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The chilling parts of the Lindy West segment were the utter matter-of-factness with which she says "Being insulted and threatened online is part of my job" and "I get abuse all day every day. It's part of my job."
The vocal fry part: I found Glass's "oh, do you think it's just sexism?" to be annoyingly disingenuous. LOOK, you just said that it happens only to the women on your staff; that the emails are "angry" and "vehement"; that "listeners have always complained about young women reporting on our show." It felt like he was tiptoeing around misogyny without ever directly addressing it.
And yes, OF COURSE Ira Glass's voice has vocal fry.
The Reply All piece -- which I liked a lot in its original episode -- felt like a somewhat odd fit against the other segments.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:34 AM on January 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
The vocal fry part: I found Glass's "oh, do you think it's just sexism?" to be annoyingly disingenuous. LOOK, you just said that it happens only to the women on your staff; that the emails are "angry" and "vehement"; that "listeners have always complained about young women reporting on our show." It felt like he was tiptoeing around misogyny without ever directly addressing it.
And yes, OF COURSE Ira Glass's voice has vocal fry.
The Reply All piece -- which I liked a lot in its original episode -- felt like a somewhat odd fit against the other segments.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:34 AM on January 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Lindy West on trolls (video, 11 mins)
(Mental health warning: be cautious of searching for Lindy West on YouTube. There's some fresh hell waiting for you.)
posted by Gin and Broadband at 1:19 PM on January 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
(Mental health warning: be cautious of searching for Lindy West on YouTube. There's some fresh hell waiting for you.)
posted by Gin and Broadband at 1:19 PM on January 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Reply All piece -- which I liked a lot in its original episode -- felt like a somewhat odd fit against the other segments.
Actually, having listened through to the end now, I take that back: the framing of the Anxiety Box emails as "trolling yourself" does fit nicely against the theme.
(Also, worth listening to the end for the Torey Malatia gag.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:54 PM on January 27, 2015
Actually, having listened through to the end now, I take that back: the framing of the Anxiety Box emails as "trolling yourself" does fit nicely against the theme.
(Also, worth listening to the end for the Torey Malatia gag.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:54 PM on January 27, 2015
How can someone listening to a show hosted by Ira Glass be reaching out to complain about any OTHER voices?
For all of his vocal tics, when something makes Ira Glass laugh, it's the most beautiful laugh in the world.
But then again, I'm somebody who really likes Zoe Chace's voice. She's the anti-Bob Ross, and I love her sound.
posted by maudlin at 8:55 PM on January 27, 2015
For all of his vocal tics, when something makes Ira Glass laugh, it's the most beautiful laugh in the world.
But then again, I'm somebody who really likes Zoe Chace's voice. She's the anti-Bob Ross, and I love her sound.
posted by maudlin at 8:55 PM on January 27, 2015
So I heard everyone gushing about the Lindy West story and I couldn't wait to finally listen to it today. I love her writing and I wanted to hear her troll talk. It was extraordinary, but I kind of wanted the troll guy to explain more, feel more contrition, or say something more about how sorry he was. I mean he apologized and said he couldn't believe he did the things he did, and she wanted him to walk her through how he did things, but I felt like he was holding back a bunch, like he wasn't very forthright about how he knew about her dad when making the twitter account. Like, where exactly did he find a photo of the guy? What could possibly drive him to do such incredibly awful things? And how on earth did he start to change?
It was a good show, but I wanted to hear more about how someone is driven to do awful things and comes back.
The vocal fry thing kind of annoyed me, I think I'm magically one of those people over 40 that doesn't care about it. I didn't pick up on people doing it until posts on MeFi explaining it to me with sound clips, and even after I've heard it, it honestly sounds totally natural to me and a normal voice thing some people do. It doesn't come off as a tick or an affectation to me, just some people dip their voice low sometimes, both male and female. I really don't understand the criticism of women that do it, but I do admit I can barely hear it in others.
posted by mathowie at 8:56 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
It was a good show, but I wanted to hear more about how someone is driven to do awful things and comes back.
The vocal fry thing kind of annoyed me, I think I'm magically one of those people over 40 that doesn't care about it. I didn't pick up on people doing it until posts on MeFi explaining it to me with sound clips, and even after I've heard it, it honestly sounds totally natural to me and a normal voice thing some people do. It doesn't come off as a tick or an affectation to me, just some people dip their voice low sometimes, both male and female. I really don't understand the criticism of women that do it, but I do admit I can barely hear it in others.
posted by mathowie at 8:56 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
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Given TAL's post-Daisey policy on fact checking, I thought it was weird that they didn't add a stinger at the end of the story mentioning how the website (until recently) read I took Anxietybox down because it was making me anxious. That fact flips the whole script for me; this lighthearted story about "I set up the computer to send me angry email blasts and now I feel better!" I think is a poor message to be sending out into the world.
The earlier stories emphasizing the negative qualities of internet bile were more on point.
posted by tjgrathwell at 8:59 PM on January 25, 2015 [2 favorites]