Doctor Who: The Empire of Death
June 22, 2024 7:41 AM - Season 1, Episode 8 - Subscribe
The Doctor has lost, his ageless enemy reigns supreme, and a shadow is falling over creation. Nothing can stop the devastation - except, perhaps, one woman.
A week ago, I would have said that The Doctor dragging Sutekh around on a leash to reanimate the universe was ridiculous, but that was before I watched a couple of '70s Doctor Who serials. I'm a little vague on how exactly Tom Baker dispatched Sutekh in "Pyramids of Mars," but that's nothing compared to how Jon Pertwee killed the Axons in "Claws of Axos," so much so that when The Doctor explained to the Brigadier what he did at the end of the episode I was right there with the Brig, whose expression said silently, "Sir, that is total horseshit and I believe I should be insulted that you might imagine I would fall for it, which I...suppose I will do, let's back to it next week, good show, old man."
I...still have no real idea how Ruby made it snow, but I also am sort of over it. I hope Ruby will be back, but I'm okay with the show just not doing any more puzzlebox stuff; I always hated the underlying arc stuff in the past, and this season almost feels like the show itself mocking that approach. Or, possibly, the show is just so bad at it that its earnest attempts at a puzzlebox feel like parody?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:11 AM on June 22 [2 favorites]
I...still have no real idea how Ruby made it snow, but I also am sort of over it. I hope Ruby will be back, but I'm okay with the show just not doing any more puzzlebox stuff; I always hated the underlying arc stuff in the past, and this season almost feels like the show itself mocking that approach. Or, possibly, the show is just so bad at it that its earnest attempts at a puzzlebox feel like parody?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:11 AM on June 22 [2 favorites]
This was weird in a way that my household felt we did not understand what they were trying to do, like a piece of art that clearly has a lot going on but that we do not get at all. Not unpleasant, but not entirely comprehensible either.
It felt like at least one entire episode was cut out of the middle of this, between them fleeing from Earth and arriving on Planet Sad Lady. Why did they go there? How much time had passed between those two scenes? Days? Weeks? Years? I don't even want to discuss the spoon.
Did Grandma not think to mention Sinister Home Care Worker to anyone?
Can I get a plushie of Sutekh?
posted by jordemort at 8:15 AM on June 22 [6 favorites]
It felt like at least one entire episode was cut out of the middle of this, between them fleeing from Earth and arriving on Planet Sad Lady. Why did they go there? How much time had passed between those two scenes? Days? Weeks? Years? I don't even want to discuss the spoon.
Did Grandma not think to mention Sinister Home Care Worker to anyone?
Can I get a plushie of Sutekh?
posted by jordemort at 8:15 AM on June 22 [6 favorites]
We also said "well, this is getting reset" about 10 minutes into the episode, as soon as the Dust of Death started spreading through the streets of London.
posted by jordemort at 8:18 AM on June 22 [2 favorites]
posted by jordemort at 8:18 AM on June 22 [2 favorites]
Oh thank God I rhougjt I was the only one who felt a little underwhelmed.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:38 AM on June 22
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:38 AM on June 22
Frankly, with an RTD season finale, I see underwhelming as a win. There was nothing as cringey as DobbyDoctor, and the feelings all felt right, even when the events didn’t make a lot of sense. Ruby was just normal after all, with a dumb handwavey “but the people who aren’t special are the most special of all,” which at least I agree with the sentiment.
Davies has outright stated that the big episodes are made as event television to bring in ratings and not so much for the hardcore viewers, so I keep my expectations low. This was fine. I like wrapping up a companion’s story in one season and moving on. One or two seasons is plenty for a companion. Three is the same as a Doctor, and that’s too much. It made Clara insufferable. I loved Yaz, but 3 seasons made me like her less.
posted by rikschell at 8:59 AM on June 22 [1 favorite]
Davies has outright stated that the big episodes are made as event television to bring in ratings and not so much for the hardcore viewers, so I keep my expectations low. This was fine. I like wrapping up a companion’s story in one season and moving on. One or two seasons is plenty for a companion. Three is the same as a Doctor, and that’s too much. It made Clara insufferable. I loved Yaz, but 3 seasons made me like her less.
posted by rikschell at 8:59 AM on June 22 [1 favorite]
At least in the earlier RTD big finales, there were personal stakes baked in with a bit more style.
In "The Parting of the Ways," Nine was ready to destroy all life on earth to stop the Daleks. But then Rose absorbed the heart of the Tardis, giving her the means to save Earth and stop the Daleks. But then you have the drama if will we lose Rose, quickly followed by the drama of Nine sacrificing himself and regenerating. I mean, we knew life wasn't going to end on earth, but we still had layers of drama of how it would end.
All we got in this one was treading water to a foregone conclusion. They maybe tried to make some waves with whether Ruby would give up the name, but that was about it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:33 AM on June 22
In "The Parting of the Ways," Nine was ready to destroy all life on earth to stop the Daleks. But then Rose absorbed the heart of the Tardis, giving her the means to save Earth and stop the Daleks. But then you have the drama if will we lose Rose, quickly followed by the drama of Nine sacrificing himself and regenerating. I mean, we knew life wasn't going to end on earth, but we still had layers of drama of how it would end.
All we got in this one was treading water to a foregone conclusion. They maybe tried to make some waves with whether Ruby would give up the name, but that was about it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:33 AM on June 22
Boy was I wrong with my theories in the previous episode post. Wrong wongity wrong !
posted by Faintdreams at 11:11 AM on June 22
posted by Faintdreams at 11:11 AM on June 22
It all made not one goddamned bit of sense, but I at least enjoy The Doctor and Ruby being all charismatic.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 11:50 AM on June 22 [3 favorites]
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 11:50 AM on June 22 [3 favorites]
Just posted on MeFi - Scientific American: A Doctor Who superfan explains in detail how the unusual cardiovascular system of the alien Time Lords could evolve and function.
posted by ShooBoo at 12:48 PM on June 22
posted by ShooBoo at 12:48 PM on June 22
When I've abandoned a baby at a churchfront, I, too, expressed my wishes for its name by pointing spookily at a signpost in the distance, so at least that bit tracks.
posted by nobody at 1:28 PM on June 22 [14 favorites]
posted by nobody at 1:28 PM on June 22 [14 favorites]
Mrs. Flood's "night-night" at the end of the episode felt like a catchphrase. Superfans, is there any Who villain who said "night-night"?
posted by Mogur at 1:51 PM on June 22
posted by Mogur at 1:51 PM on June 22
My kid made an observation...
"One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin.
posted by Paul Slade at 2:38 PM on June 22
"One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin.
posted by Paul Slade at 2:38 PM on June 22
Mrs. Flood's "night-night" at the end of the episode felt like a catchphrase.
No, that is just an affectionate alternative to " good night". Think like "nighty-night".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:02 PM on June 22
No, that is just an affectionate alternative to " good night". Think like "nighty-night".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:02 PM on June 22
Yes, but could it also be a reference to someone else in the Whoniverse that says goodnight that way?
posted by Mogur at 3:42 PM on June 22
posted by Mogur at 3:42 PM on June 22
Shockingly, next season is going to end with a flashback of Mrs. Balboa pointing at a tub of Rocky Road.
posted by johnofjack at 4:36 PM on June 22 [2 favorites]
posted by johnofjack at 4:36 PM on June 22 [2 favorites]
Yes, but could it also be a reference to someone else in the Whoniverse that says goodnight that way?
I took as more of a joke about how it sounded like she was narrating a bedtime story, but had ended with al line about how The Doctor was about to be facing something bad....but sweet dreams, kids!
You know? It was more an ironic thing than a catchphrase.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:46 PM on June 22 [2 favorites]
I took as more of a joke about how it sounded like she was narrating a bedtime story, but had ended with al line about how The Doctor was about to be facing something bad....but sweet dreams, kids!
You know? It was more an ironic thing than a catchphrase.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:46 PM on June 22 [2 favorites]
So, the snow and everything was all just... nothing? Huh.
I did like Ruby's mother being just a regular person. The rest of it... well, yeah. A bit of a letdown.
posted by maryellenreads at 5:38 PM on June 22
I did like Ruby's mother being just a regular person. The rest of it... well, yeah. A bit of a letdown.
posted by maryellenreads at 5:38 PM on June 22
So, the snow and everything was all just... nothing? Huh.
Maybe. Or maybe Ruby was a misdirection and it relates to Mrs Flood who had snow around her at the end and was often around when it snowed for Ruby.
posted by beaning at 6:23 PM on June 22 [2 favorites]
Maybe. Or maybe Ruby was a misdirection and it relates to Mrs Flood who had snow around her at the end and was often around when it snowed for Ruby.
posted by beaning at 6:23 PM on June 22 [2 favorites]
Honestly, with the parasol and the suitcase and the mouse, I was half expecting the neighbor to Mary Poppins her ass off that roof after her enigmatic exchange.
posted by Kyol at 7:07 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]
posted by Kyol at 7:07 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]
I got River Song vibes from Mrs. Flood's "clever boy" line.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:58 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:58 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]
I liked this a lot more than I expected to, since I thought last week's set-up episode was pure nonsense. I think RTD made some sense out of bringing Sutekh back and how he planted Susan Triad on all the planets so she could execute Order 66 when he decided to snap his fingers. Oh, the pop culture references we love to make!
Actually, RTD has said that the story of Ruby's mother being a normal human being was written as a reaction to Rey's story in The Rise of Skywalker - he wanted to tell a story about why everyone is important, that they don't have to be the chosen one to make a difference. No wonder Ruby's mum is a nurse, given all they've been through in the last five years.
I think he got the emotional resonance right, even if some of the plotting was still ridiculous. But I'm glad it all kinda made sense in the end and that a God can be defeated by not understanding why a normal person can still be important. As much as I loved the Doctor's speech about what we imbue with importance makes them important, it's also a sly commentary on fans and theory crafting, I think. All these weeks we've spent trying to figure out why Ruby's mum is sort of came to nothing but she was important because we made her important! (I don't even try to theorise normally, but I think RTD put in lot of red herrings just to misdirect us - and enough clues that might have added up, if he wanted them to.)
The reunion was great (I cried!) and making this a solid reason for Ruby to stay home makes this one of the great companion goodbyes. I mean, nothing beats Martha's "This is me, getting out", but staying behind to get to know your bio family is really solid. AND making the Doctor talk about and think about Susan made it emotionally resonant for him as well.
I really hope Carol Anne Ford can be in the show very soon. Susan deserves to be reunited with her grandfather one last time, at least.
posted by crossoverman at 8:22 PM on June 22 [2 favorites]
Actually, RTD has said that the story of Ruby's mother being a normal human being was written as a reaction to Rey's story in The Rise of Skywalker - he wanted to tell a story about why everyone is important, that they don't have to be the chosen one to make a difference. No wonder Ruby's mum is a nurse, given all they've been through in the last five years.
I think he got the emotional resonance right, even if some of the plotting was still ridiculous. But I'm glad it all kinda made sense in the end and that a God can be defeated by not understanding why a normal person can still be important. As much as I loved the Doctor's speech about what we imbue with importance makes them important, it's also a sly commentary on fans and theory crafting, I think. All these weeks we've spent trying to figure out why Ruby's mum is sort of came to nothing but she was important because we made her important! (I don't even try to theorise normally, but I think RTD put in lot of red herrings just to misdirect us - and enough clues that might have added up, if he wanted them to.)
The reunion was great (I cried!) and making this a solid reason for Ruby to stay home makes this one of the great companion goodbyes. I mean, nothing beats Martha's "This is me, getting out", but staying behind to get to know your bio family is really solid. AND making the Doctor talk about and think about Susan made it emotionally resonant for him as well.
I really hope Carol Anne Ford can be in the show very soon. Susan deserves to be reunited with her grandfather one last time, at least.
posted by crossoverman at 8:22 PM on June 22 [2 favorites]
I got River Song vibes from Mrs. Flood's "clever boy" line.
Clara is known for saying this very thing. She might be old Clara. Clara does have a TARDIS, after all.
posted by crossoverman at 8:23 PM on June 22 [5 favorites]
Clara is known for saying this very thing. She might be old Clara. Clara does have a TARDIS, after all.
posted by crossoverman at 8:23 PM on June 22 [5 favorites]
Welp, leave it to wholesome Disney to 1) show the Doctor out walking his dog, and 2) sticking Eternal Old Yeller with a hell of a case of space rabies.
posted by zaixfeep at 11:51 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]
posted by zaixfeep at 11:51 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]
I enjoy the show, 46 years since my first enthralled and terrified viewing on a local UHF channel (pre-PBS, even!), and I love things about what they've done to deal with the glacial pacing, dreadful dialogue, non-continuity, and numbing pauses of the old show, but the one kind of story I'm truly tired of is the THE-ENTIRE-UNIVERSE-IS-BEING-DESTROYED thing that NuWho seems to revisit over and over and over in a weird British refraction of the ubiquitous apocalyptics and Irwin-Allen-style disaster flick orientation of modern sci-fi.
If the universe is truly as fragile as we'd be led to believe, and if it were populated by so many beings capable of actually erasing it (for whatever silly reasons of revenge/bitterness/perfectionism/etc), one hairbrained time machine operator isn't going to keep it around for long, if for no other reason that when they're dealing with one universe destroyer in the southeastern reaches of the universe, there's another one building the infinibomb in the northern universe and another installing Windows Vista in a Charged Vacuum Emboitement in the archipelago of middle universe and another and another and another and it's all at once because that's what the universe is when you've got a magical space time machine.
Makes me wish, at some point, they'd be able to wash their hands, say "Man, that was a tough job, wiping out all the threats to the universe over all time and space, so let's go solve some local problems," and spend a few millennia embroiled in localized, personal stories across the cosmos, with great soundtracks and more relatable consequences, but I'm clearly not the target audience for what they're doing now. I'll still watch, because I'm no so invested in wanting perfection from what is still just a TV show, but I wish the hyperdramatics came a little less often.
posted by sonascope at 4:58 AM on June 23 [4 favorites]
If the universe is truly as fragile as we'd be led to believe, and if it were populated by so many beings capable of actually erasing it (for whatever silly reasons of revenge/bitterness/perfectionism/etc), one hairbrained time machine operator isn't going to keep it around for long, if for no other reason that when they're dealing with one universe destroyer in the southeastern reaches of the universe, there's another one building the infinibomb in the northern universe and another installing Windows Vista in a Charged Vacuum Emboitement in the archipelago of middle universe and another and another and another and it's all at once because that's what the universe is when you've got a magical space time machine.
Makes me wish, at some point, they'd be able to wash their hands, say "Man, that was a tough job, wiping out all the threats to the universe over all time and space, so let's go solve some local problems," and spend a few millennia embroiled in localized, personal stories across the cosmos, with great soundtracks and more relatable consequences, but I'm clearly not the target audience for what they're doing now. I'll still watch, because I'm no so invested in wanting perfection from what is still just a TV show, but I wish the hyperdramatics came a little less often.
posted by sonascope at 4:58 AM on June 23 [4 favorites]
Something struck me -
Just after The Doctor learns that him visiting all those places helped to plant a Susan Tardis everywhere in the universe, thus ensuring a totality of coverage, he says something about how he visited all those places, and the last thing he says before his Primal Scream was "but I was just having fun".
Over on the blue there's a conversation about how AirBnB is getting outlawed in Barcelona, and it's brought in elements of a secondary conversation about travelers ultimately, in a small scale, contributing to climate change. And - yeah, speaking of someone who's flown internationally, that is something that a lot of us are torn about; international travel, getting out and SEEING the world and meeting people, goes a long way towards fostering global harmony (you're less likely to be afraid of people in a different place if you've met people from that place and you've visited that place). But it's inescapable that it's had a negative effect on greenhouse gas emissions.
We ended up contributing to the coming destruction of the planet....but we didn't mean to, we were just having fun. That line landed really interestingly. And I'm wondering if that was an intentional thing on RTD's part.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:21 AM on June 23
Just after The Doctor learns that him visiting all those places helped to plant a Susan Tardis everywhere in the universe, thus ensuring a totality of coverage, he says something about how he visited all those places, and the last thing he says before his Primal Scream was "but I was just having fun".
Over on the blue there's a conversation about how AirBnB is getting outlawed in Barcelona, and it's brought in elements of a secondary conversation about travelers ultimately, in a small scale, contributing to climate change. And - yeah, speaking of someone who's flown internationally, that is something that a lot of us are torn about; international travel, getting out and SEEING the world and meeting people, goes a long way towards fostering global harmony (you're less likely to be afraid of people in a different place if you've met people from that place and you've visited that place). But it's inescapable that it's had a negative effect on greenhouse gas emissions.
We ended up contributing to the coming destruction of the planet....but we didn't mean to, we were just having fun. That line landed really interestingly. And I'm wondering if that was an intentional thing on RTD's part.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:21 AM on June 23
Sian Clifford was the best part of this episode; I thought she was deeply empathetic in a very small part. She would be an incredible companion. Or an incredible Doctor.
posted by bcwinters at 6:54 AM on June 23 [3 favorites]
posted by bcwinters at 6:54 AM on June 23 [3 favorites]
All the end-of-the-universe stuff is so counterproductive - just a big yawn as we wait for the inevitable reset. The way to really engage viewers is to threaten one individual you've taken the trouble to make us care about first. That would have far greater impact.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:57 AM on June 24
posted by Paul Slade at 3:57 AM on June 24
That was just dumb. Sutekh being this big-bad secretly hitchhiking on the TARDIS for eons in order to plant the seeds for the demise of every lifeform throughout the entire universe, but it’s somehow hung-up on the identity of Ruby’s biological mother enough to not snuff the Doctor and Ruby? My eyes rolled so hard I still can’t see forward.
Also, wasn’t it established somewhere that the TARDIS can’t be controlled by anyone other than the Doctor (or another timelord) and/or someone they authorize? Sutekh saying he got control simply from eons of watching the Doctor at the helm didn’t seem right.
It was very handy that an ancient CRT can connect up to a system in 2042 with a simple click. Didn’t know CRTs were so future-proof.
So...Ruby gets the info on her mother from the 2042 DNA search (which is, apparently, stored on the CRT) but then smashes the CRT, assumedly destroying the data. But, then, back in a reconstituted 2024, UNIT is able to do a complete DNA scan of the UK population and find Ruby’s mother. Did I miss some hand-wavey explanation of how 2024 UNIT had the 2042 DNA info? How it somehow survived the CRT smash? (The dialogue audio was often, once again, hard to decipher at times.)
Kate has a boyfriend.
I will say, though, (speaking as an adoptee) the reunion of Ruby with her mother was very touching. That said, the Doctor was right in his admonition that Ruby not just barge in and ambush her mother. Accepted protocol has long been that you use an intermediary to initiate contact, in order to preserve privacy.
*[SPOILERS]* Ruby will be back next series, though it seems Millie Gibson will leave at some point next series. Varada Sethu will be the new companion, and the two will share the stage throughout the next series.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:35 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]
Also, wasn’t it established somewhere that the TARDIS can’t be controlled by anyone other than the Doctor (or another timelord) and/or someone they authorize? Sutekh saying he got control simply from eons of watching the Doctor at the helm didn’t seem right.
It was very handy that an ancient CRT can connect up to a system in 2042 with a simple click. Didn’t know CRTs were so future-proof.
So...Ruby gets the info on her mother from the 2042 DNA search (which is, apparently, stored on the CRT) but then smashes the CRT, assumedly destroying the data. But, then, back in a reconstituted 2024, UNIT is able to do a complete DNA scan of the UK population and find Ruby’s mother. Did I miss some hand-wavey explanation of how 2024 UNIT had the 2042 DNA info? How it somehow survived the CRT smash? (The dialogue audio was often, once again, hard to decipher at times.)
Kate has a boyfriend.
I will say, though, (speaking as an adoptee) the reunion of Ruby with her mother was very touching. That said, the Doctor was right in his admonition that Ruby not just barge in and ambush her mother. Accepted protocol has long been that you use an intermediary to initiate contact, in order to preserve privacy.
*[SPOILERS]* Ruby will be back next series, though it seems Millie Gibson will leave at some point next series. Varada Sethu will be the new companion, and the two will share the stage throughout the next series.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:35 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]
So...Ruby gets the info on her mother from the 2042 DNA search (which is, apparently, stored on the CRT) but then smashes the CRT, assumedly destroying the data. But, then, back in a reconstituted 2024, UNIT is able to do a complete DNA scan of the UK population and find Ruby’s mother. Did I miss some hand-wavey explanation of how 2024 UNIT had the 2042 DNA info? How it somehow survived the CRT smash? (The dialogue audio was often, once again, hard to decipher at times.)
Ruby is only CLAIMING to have gotten the info in 2042. We never see the results, she just SAYS she got it before smashing the screen. The Doctor figured out Mel was probably a spy right when they were starting the search and that's why he sent Mel out of the room; it wasn't to "stand guard", it was to get her out of the way so that he could cook up a plan with Ruby. And part of that plan involved Ruby faking Sutekh out so she could get close enough to lasso him.
2024 UNIT did its own separate search; they didn't have "the 2042 data", they had data from 2024. And in theory Ruby's mum probably did 23 and Me or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:02 AM on June 24
Ruby is only CLAIMING to have gotten the info in 2042. We never see the results, she just SAYS she got it before smashing the screen. The Doctor figured out Mel was probably a spy right when they were starting the search and that's why he sent Mel out of the room; it wasn't to "stand guard", it was to get her out of the way so that he could cook up a plan with Ruby. And part of that plan involved Ruby faking Sutekh out so she could get close enough to lasso him.
2024 UNIT did its own separate search; they didn't have "the 2042 data", they had data from 2024. And in theory Ruby's mum probably did 23 and Me or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:02 AM on June 24
All the end-of-the-universe stuff is so counterproductive - just a big yawn as we wait for the inevitable reset. The way to really engage viewers is to threaten one individual you've taken the trouble to make us care about first. That would have far greater impact.
Yeah, as soon as the death dust started killing actual reoccurring named characters, I knew it was going to get the Big Reset, and the impact is lost. As long as it's just maybe the current companion or the other companion or frankly all of London, eh, maybe it'll stop there and woe is the Doctor, big emotional damage, etc & so forth. But, like killing off UNIT and the whole planet and then the universe? I guess we're just wrapping up the show now, then? Because no people means no show means that's all she wrote, right?
So, yeah, it just doesn't work. Walking right up _to_ that line like the Daleks and Cybermen have done multiple times, yeah sure ok, how's the Doctor going to stop it, what options does he have, etc & so forth - good drama and good TV. But actually dusting the whole universe? That doesn't have the impact I think they're thinking it would, y'know? Then it just sort of turns into "well, how long before the Doctor figures out the big reset button?"
posted by Kyol at 10:04 AM on June 24
Yeah, as soon as the death dust started killing actual reoccurring named characters, I knew it was going to get the Big Reset, and the impact is lost. As long as it's just maybe the current companion or the other companion or frankly all of London, eh, maybe it'll stop there and woe is the Doctor, big emotional damage, etc & so forth. But, like killing off UNIT and the whole planet and then the universe? I guess we're just wrapping up the show now, then? Because no people means no show means that's all she wrote, right?
So, yeah, it just doesn't work. Walking right up _to_ that line like the Daleks and Cybermen have done multiple times, yeah sure ok, how's the Doctor going to stop it, what options does he have, etc & so forth - good drama and good TV. But actually dusting the whole universe? That doesn't have the impact I think they're thinking it would, y'know? Then it just sort of turns into "well, how long before the Doctor figures out the big reset button?"
posted by Kyol at 10:04 AM on June 24
All of UNIT really is strapped up, aren’t they? Laser beams from The Vlinx, twin cannons on that little kids Segway, everybody!
posted by dr_dank at 11:07 AM on June 24
posted by dr_dank at 11:07 AM on June 24
2024 UNIT did its own separate search; they didn't have "the 2042 data", they had data from 2024. And in theory Ruby's mum probably did 23 and Me or something.
Why didn't they just do that at the outset, then, instead of all the "videotape hidden away for years" and timewindow nonsense? Y'know, do the simple, obvious test first before you engage the big, expensive, never-used-for-this-purpose, tech?
Of course, wtf didn't Ruby ever do a 23-and-me before now? Practically every searching adoptee I know has done it.
Also: In 73 Yards, Ruby stops Roger ap Gwilliam from becoming PM in 2046. But, in this episode, it would seem that never happened, as the DNA database they go to 2046 to search was created under Gwilliam regime. Different timelines?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:21 AM on June 24
Why didn't they just do that at the outset, then, instead of all the "videotape hidden away for years" and timewindow nonsense? Y'know, do the simple, obvious test first before you engage the big, expensive, never-used-for-this-purpose, tech?
Of course, wtf didn't Ruby ever do a 23-and-me before now? Practically every searching adoptee I know has done it.
Also: In 73 Yards, Ruby stops Roger ap Gwilliam from becoming PM in 2046. But, in this episode, it would seem that never happened, as the DNA database they go to 2046 to search was created under Gwilliam regime. Different timelines?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:21 AM on June 24
Ah, no, as I understand it, the change in the timeline was that she merely stopped ap Gwilliam from nuking the planet, but he was still the PM in 2046. Just a little less careless with the big nuclear whoopsie daisy.
posted by Kyol at 11:52 AM on June 24
posted by Kyol at 11:52 AM on June 24
Roger ap Gwilliam led the world to the brink of nuclear war, the Doctor says at the start of 73 Yards. When the fairy circle gets broken, Ruby experiences an alternate timeline where she ends his PM-ship early, before he even got that far, it seems. But when she closes the circle at the end, she negates that whole timeline she experienced, hence ap Gwilliam still being remembered by the Doctor as the worst PM ever and Ruby not recognizing him when she sees the footage from 2046.
My understanding was that they did, in fact, get the data from 2046 but that Ruby dropped the CRT (which the Doctor had magically transformed into a flat touch screen using his sonic screwdriver) to mess with Sutekh, but they still had the data which they then took back with them to 2024 so that UNIT could search it? Or something like that. Very sloppy.
as the death dust started killing actual reoccurring named characters, I knew it was going to get the Big Reset
Yeah, when the dust got Rose Noble, I said to myself, "No way are they unceremoniously killing off Donna's adopted daughter in the background of a scene." It's such a pathetic attempt at emotional manipulation, killing everyone off to dramatic music while the Doctor cries, when we know it is all going to get reversed.
And you'd think that RTD would know better than to do another "destroying the universe" storyline so soon after Chris Chibnall's absolutely dreadful Flux storyline. Or maybe you wouldn't think that he'd know better, because he obviously didn't. Still: why, RTD, WHY?!?!
Davies has outright stated that the big episodes are made as event television to bring in ratings and not so much for the hardcore viewers, so I keep my expectations low.
This is just terrible logic, though. If you're not a Doctor Who fan already, why would you watch this? And if somehow you did get roped in because its an "EVENT," wouldn't you immediately go, "What the hell is this shit, the entire universe is destroyed, and now it isn't? Who cares about who this kid's mom is? WHY AM I WATCHING THIS CRAP" and then you'd turn it off. It's only the hardcore fans who care enough to even hate watch this, and it is just such a letdown. Was it Flux/Timeless Child bad? No, but it was bad.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:08 PM on June 24
My understanding was that they did, in fact, get the data from 2046 but that Ruby dropped the CRT (which the Doctor had magically transformed into a flat touch screen using his sonic screwdriver) to mess with Sutekh, but they still had the data which they then took back with them to 2024 so that UNIT could search it? Or something like that. Very sloppy.
as the death dust started killing actual reoccurring named characters, I knew it was going to get the Big Reset
Yeah, when the dust got Rose Noble, I said to myself, "No way are they unceremoniously killing off Donna's adopted daughter in the background of a scene." It's such a pathetic attempt at emotional manipulation, killing everyone off to dramatic music while the Doctor cries, when we know it is all going to get reversed.
And you'd think that RTD would know better than to do another "destroying the universe" storyline so soon after Chris Chibnall's absolutely dreadful Flux storyline. Or maybe you wouldn't think that he'd know better, because he obviously didn't. Still: why, RTD, WHY?!?!
Davies has outright stated that the big episodes are made as event television to bring in ratings and not so much for the hardcore viewers, so I keep my expectations low.
This is just terrible logic, though. If you're not a Doctor Who fan already, why would you watch this? And if somehow you did get roped in because its an "EVENT," wouldn't you immediately go, "What the hell is this shit, the entire universe is destroyed, and now it isn't? Who cares about who this kid's mom is? WHY AM I WATCHING THIS CRAP" and then you'd turn it off. It's only the hardcore fans who care enough to even hate watch this, and it is just such a letdown. Was it Flux/Timeless Child bad? No, but it was bad.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:08 PM on June 24
I liked the spoon scene.
I liked the Memory TARDIS (basically, fandom in a physical form). Mel stroking 6's old clothes and sleeping under 7's vest was so sweet.
I wonder if the Doctor brought life back to Skaro? He mentioned it as one of the planets he'd doomed by visiting it, but didn't specifically mention passing through it on his Sutekh-on-a-string tour.
SPEAKING OF WHICH. I cannot believe they brought SUTEKH back only for the Doctor to defeat him with a PIECE OF STRING. The smart-gloves and the smart-rope were gimmicks that let you climb things! They should not be powerful enough to restrain a god!! Not without some kind of powerful blessing, or tech from the other Osirans, or something.
(Lore for non-Classic-Whovians: Sutekh isn't actually a god, just a very powerful alien. He and the other Osirans were worshipped as gods in Egypt. But the other Osirans couldn't kill him; they just trapped him in a very secure vault on Mars. The 4th Doctor couldn't defeat him; all he could do was trap him again, this time in the time-corridor. Which we now learn he's been travelling through along with the TARDIS since then... so why does he suddenly burn and disintegrate when the Doctor cuts him loose?)
I also felt that Sutekh probably wouldn't greet the Doctor as "my old friend". The Master would, but to Sutekh sentient beings are either tools to be controlled or just annoyances to be snuffed out. He might not even be able to conceive of a word like "friend".
I do want to watch this episode again to see if it makes more sense on a second viewing, or at least to see if I can discern more of what RTD was getting at. By Davies standards, it wasn't a *bad* finale.
Overall, I liked the feel of this season and I really like Gatwa's Doctor. I like that this Doctor is heart-on-sleeve emotional and lives in the moment and gives hugs. We've had Doctors (Smith, Capaldi) who remind us how ancient and far-travelling the Doctor is. I enjoy being reminded that he's also ever-young and ever-new.
posted by Pallas Athena at 12:20 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]
I liked the Memory TARDIS (basically, fandom in a physical form). Mel stroking 6's old clothes and sleeping under 7's vest was so sweet.
I wonder if the Doctor brought life back to Skaro? He mentioned it as one of the planets he'd doomed by visiting it, but didn't specifically mention passing through it on his Sutekh-on-a-string tour.
SPEAKING OF WHICH. I cannot believe they brought SUTEKH back only for the Doctor to defeat him with a PIECE OF STRING. The smart-gloves and the smart-rope were gimmicks that let you climb things! They should not be powerful enough to restrain a god!! Not without some kind of powerful blessing, or tech from the other Osirans, or something.
(Lore for non-Classic-Whovians: Sutekh isn't actually a god, just a very powerful alien. He and the other Osirans were worshipped as gods in Egypt. But the other Osirans couldn't kill him; they just trapped him in a very secure vault on Mars. The 4th Doctor couldn't defeat him; all he could do was trap him again, this time in the time-corridor. Which we now learn he's been travelling through along with the TARDIS since then... so why does he suddenly burn and disintegrate when the Doctor cuts him loose?)
I also felt that Sutekh probably wouldn't greet the Doctor as "my old friend". The Master would, but to Sutekh sentient beings are either tools to be controlled or just annoyances to be snuffed out. He might not even be able to conceive of a word like "friend".
I do want to watch this episode again to see if it makes more sense on a second viewing, or at least to see if I can discern more of what RTD was getting at. By Davies standards, it wasn't a *bad* finale.
Overall, I liked the feel of this season and I really like Gatwa's Doctor. I like that this Doctor is heart-on-sleeve emotional and lives in the moment and gives hugs. We've had Doctors (Smith, Capaldi) who remind us how ancient and far-travelling the Doctor is. I enjoy being reminded that he's also ever-young and ever-new.
posted by Pallas Athena at 12:20 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]
Roger ap Gwilliam led the world to the brink of nuclear war, the Doctor says at the start of 73 Yards. When the fairy circle gets broken, Ruby experiences an alternate timeline where she ends his PM-ship early, before he even got that far, it seems. But when she closes the circle at the end, she negates that whole timeline she experienced, hence ap Gwilliam still being remembered by the Doctor as the worst PM ever and Ruby not recognizing him when she sees the footage from 2046.
Oh right right, you're right. That got timey wimey, then, which sort of leads to, uh, did he end up nuking the north sea after all then?
That's sort of the problem with the Earth as the Doctor's preferred playground - when something weird and timeline abusing shows up on some random Snoodgrads Ultron Five planet, eh, the deep lore nerds might remember the last time that planet was on the show, but generally it's a safe place to write. Earth? We've got some kind of anthropic wotsit going on here, and local timey-wimey stuff gets weird. i.e. as opposed to "earth: 3,000,000 ACE" yeah yeah ok we could've nuked the planet 5 times in between now and then and come back up through cat-based lifeforms or whatever since then, whatever. Something 22 years from now? That puts stories 100 years from now in jeopardy.
posted by Kyol at 1:30 PM on June 24
Oh right right, you're right. That got timey wimey, then, which sort of leads to, uh, did he end up nuking the north sea after all then?
That's sort of the problem with the Earth as the Doctor's preferred playground - when something weird and timeline abusing shows up on some random Snoodgrads Ultron Five planet, eh, the deep lore nerds might remember the last time that planet was on the show, but generally it's a safe place to write. Earth? We've got some kind of anthropic wotsit going on here, and local timey-wimey stuff gets weird. i.e. as opposed to "earth: 3,000,000 ACE" yeah yeah ok we could've nuked the planet 5 times in between now and then and come back up through cat-based lifeforms or whatever since then, whatever. Something 22 years from now? That puts stories 100 years from now in jeopardy.
posted by Kyol at 1:30 PM on June 24
I'm enormously skeptical that a person who left their baby on a doorstep would do 23 and Me.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:33 PM on June 24
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:33 PM on June 24
Was there ever an explanation for the snow? Did I miss it?
posted by 1970s Antihero at 2:06 PM on June 24
posted by 1970s Antihero at 2:06 PM on June 24
I think the explanation for the snow was just a hand-wavey "That moment in time is so raw, it's bleeding through to other times and places", some version of which the Doctor has mentioned a couple times.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:48 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:48 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]
"No way are they unceremoniously killing off Donna's adopted daughter in the background of a scene."
Rose is Donna's biological daughter.
posted by crossoverman at 4:23 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]
Rose is Donna's biological daughter.
posted by crossoverman at 4:23 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]
Woops, because of her age I was thinking she was a daughter of Donna's husband from an earlier marriage, but then I forget just how long it's been since Donna traveled with the Doctor and there's been enough time for her to have a teenager by now.
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:12 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:12 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]
It would be an interesting season finale for the Universe to just get well and truly destroyed for once. Next season, the Doctor could return and the mystery of how the Universe got put back could be explored.
posted by SPrintF at 8:13 PM on June 24
posted by SPrintF at 8:13 PM on June 24
Goddamnit, I just remembered the River Song / Amy Pond water-based clue, which means that Mrs Flood must absolutely be some part of that bullshit
posted by coriolisdave at 9:23 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]
posted by coriolisdave at 9:23 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]
Didn't the crack that was such a part of the Pond's story show up again?
posted by beaning at 9:31 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]
posted by beaning at 9:31 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]
Oh christ, I knew there was some reason I kept fixating on the last name "Flood"...
Le Sigh.
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:15 AM on June 25
Le Sigh.
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:15 AM on June 25
I forget just how long it's been since Donna traveled with the Doctor and there's been enough time for her to have a teenager by now.
RTD has definitely fudged this detail but he did joke he'd explain the two year difference in Series 7. (I guess Donna hasn't been with the Doctor for 14 years and Rose is supposed to be 16?)
Also, I don't think RTD will add Flood to the River/Pond family.
posted by crossoverman at 4:16 PM on June 25
RTD has definitely fudged this detail but he did joke he'd explain the two year difference in Series 7. (I guess Donna hasn't been with the Doctor for 14 years and Rose is supposed to be 16?)
Also, I don't think RTD will add Flood to the River/Pond family.
posted by crossoverman at 4:16 PM on June 25
Veronica Lake and Billy Ocean are also thought to be involved.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:05 AM on June 26 [4 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 12:05 AM on June 26 [4 favorites]
I'm enormously skeptical that a person who left their baby on a doorstep would do 23 and Me.
You don’t know any birthmothers, do you?
posted by Thorzdad at 3:50 AM on June 26
You don’t know any birthmothers, do you?
posted by Thorzdad at 3:50 AM on June 26
I went back and watched some of this Doctor and some of Capaldi. And what struck me is how all of the snarky Gen X-ness is gone from the writing. The threats, the arrogance, the condescension, all gone. 11 & 12 were heavy on that. Ten had some, nine too. But 13, while ceaselessly confident and odd, wasn't condescending or insulting. And 15 is just open-hearted and vulnerable all the way through.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:16 AM on June 26 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:16 AM on June 26 [1 favorite]
For me, that's part of the problem. 13 and 15 lacked the edge that made The Doctor interesting; I can't track either of them back to The War Doctor. If the lead is going to be Cosmic Mary Poppins, then the stories have to be a lot better to compensate.
posted by SPrintF at 12:14 PM on June 26
posted by SPrintF at 12:14 PM on June 26
I liked it fine. Much of it doesn't make sense on a hard look, but that's typical for Doctor Who. It was exciting and fun and I enjoyed myself.
While I'm fine in theory with Ruby Sunday being a nobody, it was disappointing in context because they've been building up that moment all season into something important. Most significantly, are we really supposed to believe that an entity as powerful as Sutekh is bothered by the fact that he can't see an ordinary woman's face in 2004? Who cares?
My son was convinced that Ruby was going to turn out to be the daughter of Rose Tyler (who was 18 in 2004), the product of some teenage fling. Similar vibe, similar upbringing, etc. And the explanation for why she doesn't appear either in the CCTV footage or the time window is that she was literally removed from the universe - like it's a big gaping hole in the fabric of space and time. That would have been a pretty awesome reveal.
Anyway, I thought it was an above-average season for a new Doctor and new (returning) showrunner. Looking forward to next season.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 1:39 PM on June 26 [4 favorites]
While I'm fine in theory with Ruby Sunday being a nobody, it was disappointing in context because they've been building up that moment all season into something important. Most significantly, are we really supposed to believe that an entity as powerful as Sutekh is bothered by the fact that he can't see an ordinary woman's face in 2004? Who cares?
My son was convinced that Ruby was going to turn out to be the daughter of Rose Tyler (who was 18 in 2004), the product of some teenage fling. Similar vibe, similar upbringing, etc. And the explanation for why she doesn't appear either in the CCTV footage or the time window is that she was literally removed from the universe - like it's a big gaping hole in the fabric of space and time. That would have been a pretty awesome reveal.
Anyway, I thought it was an above-average season for a new Doctor and new (returning) showrunner. Looking forward to next season.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 1:39 PM on June 26 [4 favorites]
To be honest, speaking as someone who loves Peter Capaldi in other roles, I found 12 so insufferable that it made me stop watching the show altogether; if I want to listen to a nerd with a major personality disorder rant at the top of his lungs about how awesome he is for an hour every week, well, there are any number of Reddit threads I could put myself through, I don't need to watch a show about it. I like this Doctor much better. (I tried with Jodie Whittaker, but I just wasn't feeling it; maybe I'll try those seasons again.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:13 PM on June 26
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:13 PM on June 26
The 13 era mostly stunk, but not because of Jodie Whittaker. Because of the writing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:17 PM on June 26 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:17 PM on June 26 [3 favorites]
Strong concur - Jodie was poorly-served by both the writing and the scheduling.
She deserved so much better
posted by coriolisdave at 6:34 PM on June 26 [1 favorite]
She deserved so much better
posted by coriolisdave at 6:34 PM on June 26 [1 favorite]
To be honest, speaking as someone who loves Peter Capaldi in other roles, I found 12 so insufferable that it made me stop watching the show altogether; if I want to listen to a nerd with a major personality disorder rant at the top of his lungs about how awesome he is for an hour every week, well, there are any number of Reddit threads I could put myself through, I don't need to watch a show about it. I like this Doctor much better. (I tried with Jodie Whittaker, but I just wasn't feeling it; maybe I'll try those seasons again.)
I don't know how much of 12 you watched, but in my opinion, Capaldi's Doctor has a wonderful character arc - he definitely starts out as the anti-Matt Smith, but the character gets much more warm over the course of his seasons. And Heaven Sent, in Capaldi's last season, is generally considered a top-5 Who episode.
Don't bother trying to re-watch 13. I forced myself to watch the last season in anticipation for the 14/15 reboot, and it's just dire. Jodie does her level best, but the writing is just abysmal. And I'm in the minority who actually likes Sacha Dhawan's Master - it's a thoroughly unhinged performance. Fugitive of the Judoon is the only truly exciting episode, but those ideas are ultimately squandered. I don't even hate Chibnall's changes to the lore - it's just that the whole thing is such a slog and buried in massive set pieces that make no sense and have no ultimate purpose.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 5:54 AM on June 27 [3 favorites]
I don't know how much of 12 you watched, but in my opinion, Capaldi's Doctor has a wonderful character arc - he definitely starts out as the anti-Matt Smith, but the character gets much more warm over the course of his seasons. And Heaven Sent, in Capaldi's last season, is generally considered a top-5 Who episode.
Don't bother trying to re-watch 13. I forced myself to watch the last season in anticipation for the 14/15 reboot, and it's just dire. Jodie does her level best, but the writing is just abysmal. And I'm in the minority who actually likes Sacha Dhawan's Master - it's a thoroughly unhinged performance. Fugitive of the Judoon is the only truly exciting episode, but those ideas are ultimately squandered. I don't even hate Chibnall's changes to the lore - it's just that the whole thing is such a slog and buried in massive set pieces that make no sense and have no ultimate purpose.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 5:54 AM on June 27 [3 favorites]
I think back to 13's first appearance and the difference in attitude was apparent from the beginning.
Graham says something to the effect of "You expect us to believe there are aliens on the train to Sheffield?"
Here is, how, based on many similar encounters, that would have gone with the others:
9: You might be surprised. [changes subject]
10: Ahem. Wellllllllll... [awkward pause, someone bails him out and changes subject]
11: [laughs nervously and/or knowingly] Ha. Yes. [changes subject]
12: You really shouldn't be so confident about these things. It makes you sound stupid. [changes subject]
Instead, we had 13, who says, to humans, on Earth, without hesitation: "Why not? I'm here and I'm alien."
And now we have 15, who I believe would say something like, "Yes, sweetie, and this one is trying to save your life."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:53 AM on June 27 [3 favorites]
Graham says something to the effect of "You expect us to believe there are aliens on the train to Sheffield?"
Here is, how, based on many similar encounters, that would have gone with the others:
9: You might be surprised. [changes subject]
10: Ahem. Wellllllllll... [awkward pause, someone bails him out and changes subject]
11: [laughs nervously and/or knowingly] Ha. Yes. [changes subject]
12: You really shouldn't be so confident about these things. It makes you sound stupid. [changes subject]
Instead, we had 13, who says, to humans, on Earth, without hesitation: "Why not? I'm here and I'm alien."
And now we have 15, who I believe would say something like, "Yes, sweetie, and this one is trying to save your life."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:53 AM on June 27 [3 favorites]
I think he got the emotional resonance right, even if some of the plotting was still ridiculous.
That could be Russell T. Davies' epitaph.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:06 PM on October 25
That could be Russell T. Davies' epitaph.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:06 PM on October 25
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If, in an episode, the entire universe dies, all the living beings, all the stars, all the planets... then we already know it's all getting reversed.
We can fret over one person, a few people even, certain planets.
But there's no path forward where the entire universe stays dead. So there's nothing to do but wait impatiently for whatever reset is coming.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:52 AM on June 22 [11 favorites]