Severance: Woe's Hollow
February 6, 2025 7:20 PM - Season 2, Episode 4 - Subscribe

The team participates in a group activity.
posted by mochapickle (198 comments total) 13 users marked this as a favorite

whoa

bortaay the rtbooay

I need a moment to process all this
posted by umbú at 7:20 PM on February 6 [3 favorites]

omg omg omg
posted by mochapickle at 7:21 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]

Love being right. Love being right all day and all night.

Mark is clearly not fully reintegrated yet, but oh boy oh boy this is going to be a fun ride.

ELEVATOR MUSIC.

GET IT?

(Also - this episode never exists without Twin Peaks doing its thing in 1990. Missing David Lynch tonight.)
posted by tzikeh at 7:37 PM on February 6 [17 favorites]

The office twins pointing was very Lynch.
posted by armacy at 7:41 PM on February 6 [11 favorites]

ELEVATOR MUSIC.

GET IT?

omg, I do now!

Was literally standing up and screaming at Irving and Helena.
posted by mochapickle at 7:44 PM on February 6 [6 favorites]

lt feels great to have the big fan fight resolved after this one. I thought Britt Lower was amazing.

I missed Dylan in this episode — he felt like he was just kind of there most of the time. Maybe fallout from the family visitation. Maybe the writing for obvious reasons needed to focus more on Helly and Irv. Either way, I hope we see more of him next week. I’m wondering how he will confront the contradictions in his own position.
posted by eirias at 7:45 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]

I don't mind admitting I was wrong.

I was wrong.

Great episode.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 7:49 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]

I thought Britt Lower was amazing.

I hope this season snags her some nominations. Just terrific every episode so far.
posted by tzikeh at 7:51 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]

I do love how smart this show is about pacing. It draws its mysteries out to great effect, but it doesn't withhold everything; it drips with revelations and revolutions, big and small. If it were a book it would be a page turner.
posted by rikschell at 7:56 PM on February 6 [7 favorites]

not the worst corporate retreat I've seen
posted by Pronoiac at 7:57 PM on February 6 [60 favorites]

Pronoiac: not the worst corporate retreat I've seen

the sound I just made
posted by tzikeh at 8:14 PM on February 6 [5 favorites]

I loved this so much. I find Irving B.'s heroic arc so moving (I kind of feel like after a few decades of antihero shows, we need shows with characters who model courage and intelligence and resistence in the face of oppressive systems; though maybe threatening to drown someone puts some anti- back on that hero). I kept being worried that they were setting up Irving to slip back in to Eagen-worship (the whole thing seemed to be a deliberate "team-breaking" exercise) but then whenever he was alone with the others, he was clear as cold ice - no way he was buying any of this bullshit.

I'm also wondering if Mark is hiding being more deeply reintegrated than we saw revealed in this episode. He didn't seem as prim and earnest as usual - something in the face seemed a bit more slack and prone towards slipping into anguish and melancholy and cynical mirth, and his laughing with Helena reminded me of his interactions with Devon.

Also, "ORTBO," "luxury meat," and "televisually" - I love these little nuggets of verbal weirdness. Amazed by this, and we're only 4 episodes in. Things are falling apart quickly. I suppose we're still waiting on the meaning of MDR (that's what I thought was Irv's epiphany in his vision) and Gemma's status, whether they can keep Helly now that they've got her back, who Irv is on the outside, where the hell Cobel went... It is a tight game they're playing, figuring out how to compel the innies' own continued existence (both for the innies, and for the writers' room!)
posted by nightcoast at 8:31 PM on February 6 [16 favorites]

I wonder if all of their doubles were manufactured, as the new severed people in the first two episodes said that their Perpetuity Wing had animatronics, rather than statues or models. All the doubles did was raise one arm, and they were only seen from afar - easy enough for a company that builds animatronic Eagans.
posted by tzikeh at 9:12 PM on February 6 [3 favorites]

Such amazing work from Britt Lower. She was telegraphing not-Helly so amazingly well. Both in the scene fingers_of_fire points out and also at about 9:50 where everyone else seems dazed with wonderment and she is kind of smirking.

This would be the first experience of a full night’s sleep for the Innies.

I didn’t actually count, but I think Dylan set a record for saying some variant of “What the fuck?” (5 or 6 times?)

Why not have a pre-trip orientation? “Hey tomorrow you are going to wake up in the woods btw”

Why did outie-Irving (presumably) walk out onto the lake before they flipped the switch?

Were all of the “twins” animatronics? Was Milchick dragging them around to have them all together at the end?

If I ever go to a Severance fan-con, I will be cosplaying as The Night Gardener.

“We should eat it!” — funniest line delivery of the series so far.
posted by mikepop at 9:16 PM on February 6 [13 favorites]

1. If Helena was going to go into the Severed world undercover she probably should have thought of a better cover story than "night gardener" first. Surely she must have anticipated the others would ask what she had seen.

2. I don't see how this isn't just the end of the working team. They just watched Irving essentially die, they learned that the company let a mole in among them, and Mark was basically raped by that mole. They can't just go back to the office after this unless it's under explicit threat of harm which would completely change the dynamic. Mark especially should be non-functional.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:23 PM on February 6 [5 favorites]

When did Miss Huang’s innie take theremin lessons!!!? She’s pretty good!
posted by Zephyrial at 9:25 PM on February 6 [9 favorites]

fingers_of_fire
watch what Britt Lower does with her face at 23:11

Right?! That was insane. I went back 10sec to see it again, thought it was the zolly effect they do in the elevator. Still thought that after watching it a second time.

I'm amazed it was just incredible face acting by Lower.

Interesting, from comments in the after-episode bit, that it seems like they actually did think the Helena thing was going to be a shock to viewers! I wonder if it was, for all the reviewers who got the eps in advance and said 204 was going to blow everybody's minds.
posted by torticat at 9:37 PM on February 6

The numbers in Irving's dream sequence really were scary.
posted by simonw at 9:59 PM on February 6 [13 favorites]

Milchick's last line "May Kier's mercy follow you into the eternal dark" was utterly chilling.
posted by simonw at 10:05 PM on February 6 [7 favorites]

Oh my God! Amazing episode and so damn creative. I'm filled with deep concern (woe, even) that Helena is going to get pregnant after her evening with Mark. There are babies of various sorts (including the little bearded crawling man - ick) in the opening credits alluding to the possiblity, perhaps. I need to go lay down.
posted by but no cigar at 10:10 PM on February 6 [6 favorites]

Also, was any of what was said about where they were or what they were doing true? Milchick told them the waterfall was the tallest in the world, which is obviously false. Was any of it true? Did they make up the whole weird Kier-twin-masturbation-death-bride story? Was that why Helena was smirking, because she knew it was all bullshit?

The only count against this is that the Lumon people take the Kier stuff so seriously that I'm not sure they'd lie about it.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:13 PM on February 6 [3 favorites]

but no cigar, this begs the question - why did Helena sleep with Mark? To me, either her outie feels emotionally repressed and wants to enjoy life as an innie, freed from the burden of being an Eagan - or else (more sinisterly) getting pregnant is part of the plan. After all - what is Cold Harbor?
posted by fingers_of_fire at 10:14 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]

Yes, fingers_of_fire, I'm wondering the same. Helena seemed moved when watching the recording of Helly and Mark kissing. I think she's both longing for connection and sinister, a delicious combo.
posted by but no cigar at 10:22 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]

I thought Helena’s whole laugh-at-the-story routine was just to build trust with the innies.
posted by umber vowel at 10:37 PM on February 6 [3 favorites]

I also wondered if Helena had arranged the whole ORTBO to get some romantic time with Mark.
posted by umber vowel at 10:38 PM on February 6 [3 favorites]

"ORTBO." Definitely no obvious anagrams here!

Were all of the “twins” animatronics? Was Milchick dragging them around to have them all together at the end?

Why didn't they rush up to inspect any of these surprising twins?

Did they make up the whole weird Kier-twin-masturbation-death-bride story

Remember how Ricken was recruited as a writer? Awfully convenient that a new Kier tome was introduced to the innies the following episode.
posted by pwnguin at 11:12 PM on February 6 [12 favorites]

The visuals are cold but the charactrers are not. No frosted breath, no chapping hands.
posted by porpoise at 11:15 PM on February 6 [6 favorites]

Nightcoast, I also thought there must be some bleed- through from the reintegration process, and that some bits of cynical, nihilistic o-Mark were showing up in normally cautious, thoughtful I-Mark. Obviously he had a reintegration hallucination, but he also just seemed a little harder and a little more selfish.

As for Hellena, I think she 1) wanted intel 2) is lonely 3) wanted to distract Mark from looking for Ms. Casey 4) generally mess with any MDR solidarity. If she had been clever enough to concoct a decent story she might have gotten away with it. People who live very privileged lives don’t necessarily have to make up plausible stuff on the spot because they’re rarely in trouble or unsafe. Add some deep disdain for innies, and you end up inventing “night gardeners”.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:24 PM on February 6 [7 favorites]

During the previouslies, I misread the founder as "Kie Reagan", and I'm hoping that means nothing whatsoever.

We went from a cliffhanger ending to a cliff.

I'd almost expect one to freak out the first time they saw the sky, like a vertigo that they'll fall into it.

There was a transition which seemed to involve a tree just slowly, casually gliding by, which made me laugh.

“Marshmallows are for team players, Dylan. They don’t just hand them out.”

Welcome back, Helly! 🎉

I was bummed at the missed chance for s'mores, and for a snowball fight.

The next ep comes out (the night before) Valentine's Day!

> This would be the first experience of a full night’s sleep for the Innies.

But not the first dream - Irv's black goo nightmare from s01e02, probably?

> Why didn't they rush up to inspect any of these surprising twins?

The first pointing twin points in from the cliff. They walk *away* from the twin, before going inland.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:30 PM on February 6 [1 favorite]

To be fair, Helena didn't make up "night gardener." She just said the person she saw was like a gardener or something. Irving caught her out with "a night gardener?" Helena was just careless with the time of day the OTC actually took place.
posted by torticat at 11:33 PM on February 6 [3 favorites]

As for Hellena, I think she 1) wanted intel 2) is lonely 3) wanted to distract Mark from looking for Ms. Casey

The Kier baby in the opening credits implies some amount of centrality to #2, but maybe also some kind of intentionality behind it, like the strongest form of mormon sex sheets -- if your innie has sex, the outie is still morally pure, right? But in that case, her outie's presence on the severed floor is something she needs to keep secret but on and off the floor.

Oh, one other weird thing: as soon as Milchick mentions Glasgow protocol on the radio Mark turns from the camera and walks away. Maybe it's just him rushing to her, but maybe he recognizes the phrase for some reason and wants to distance himself from Milcheck (due to his own severence?)
posted by pwnguin at 11:42 PM on February 6

I thought Helena’s whole laugh-at-the-story routine was just to build trust with the innies.

Me too, umber vowel. She'd just had that confrontation with Irving and it was clear he wasn't going to let it go, so she got sloppy and overcompensated. It's a fascinating paradox: Helena *is* Helly but she doesn't understand Helly the way Irving understands Helly. She just doesn't have the emotional framework.

I keep chuckling about Milchick sternly admonishing Irving that he would be dismissed without catering and a formal farewell -- imagine! -- because in Milchick's world those awkward little office farewell parties are the highest honor... Until I remember that not only is Irving not meant to return, he's meant to be totally erased. Records, personal items, even the very memories of him, like he never existed.

Which... I mean, that means that someone's going to have to push some sort of system update to the severed chips, right? That's so chilling. How do you excise a single person from memories?

It's fitting, in a way, when you compare Irving's departure to Burt's. When Burt left, it was tragic because Burt wouldn't remember anyone on the severed floor. When Irving leaves, it's tragic because no one on the severed floor will remember Irving. They're opposite sides of the same coin.
posted by mochapickle at 12:25 AM on February 7 [5 favorites]

I don't think they can erase memories from the severed people, but I guess we will see next episode.
posted by Pendragon at 3:09 AM on February 7 [5 favorites]

Mark my words, Dylan has been (re)radicalized by watching Milchick cold-bloodedly execute Irving. I expect it might take a bit of time for him to reconcile it, but he looked devastated.
posted by ourobouros at 3:23 AM on February 7 [12 favorites]

I did notice a very minor editing error on rewatch. You can see Irving carrying the book they find in the cave when they are on the way to the cave.
posted by Pendragon at 4:14 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]

Are we meant to understand that Irving B. was communicating to his innie through dreams? And also vice-versa? And who is outie Irving B. in contact with?
posted by rocketman at 5:00 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]

I think it's more like that some things seep through, although it is not easy to say definitively what does. I'd make the case that art is one thing that seems to play around the boundaries.

Outie Irving is obsessively painting an image from the Severed floor that for some reason his Innie no longer has memory of. In turn, Innie Irving dozes off and has dreams of black goo, informed by his painting process on the outside.

When Mark goes in for his wellness check, he sculpts a figure of the tree that Gemma supposedly crashed into - which he had just been visiting the night before.
posted by mikepop at 5:52 AM on February 7 [12 favorites]

This was an eventful episode but it strained credulity for me. As mentioned, the doubles that they never thought to inspect (and where would they really run away to in time?), a television DVD player AV stand on a rocky ledge with no visible extension cord or generator or anything, no preparation for the innies despite this being an obvious large environmental shift ... I could go on.
For maybe the first third of this episode, I was assuming it was a dream sequence or something. In addition to the above, why would Lumon do this? Do they have that much control over this land? There's so many situations where an innie could die, and Helena obviously wasn't as authoritative a secret babysitter as they'd assumed.
In a bizarre Promethean act, Milchick gives Mark a torch and tells him that it can create light and heat, which was apparently new information, and doesn't mention, you know ... hey, this is fire, and you're obviously new to this, so here's some safety tips, as well. Irv could have easily died on his nocturnal jaunt. If MDR and Mark are so close to finishing such important work, why this big risk?
The other reason I initially thought that this must be a dream sequence, is that there was no continuity between Mark's reintegration (attempt? success?) and this, until near the end after he was raped. I understand that keeping information from us about the 'other side' until later is part of the accepted narrative but this seemed a bit too far.
posted by destructive cactus at 7:17 AM on February 7 [7 favorites]

The visuals are cold but the charactrers are not. No frosted breath, no chapping hands.
porpoise

Huh, that's a good point. Do any of them even make any remark about the cold? The only one I can think of is Irv saying he almost froze to death sleeping outside. The only concern they show for their situation at all is remarking on their lack of food.

Why didn't they rush up to inspect any of these surprising twins?
pwnguin

I was wondering that too. Maybe the first Mark "twin" was too far away, but they pass close to some of the others and don't seem curious at all about them.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:19 AM on February 7

destructive cactus, I'm kind of with you on this. I've been feeling like this season is veering into Lost "weird for the sake of being weird" territory. Dropping the Innies who have literally no experience with the world outside of their specific controlled office interior into the wilderness just doesn't make sense since, as you note, there are many ways they could easily injure or kill themselves.

Given the comment above about the lack of indications of them being cold, could this be some kind of simulation induced through their Severance chip? Though the show has never hinted at having that kind of ability before.

is that there was no continuity between Mark's reintegration (attempt? success?)

That was very jarring, yes. I had to stop and check if I had somehow missed an episode before this. Is this episode supposed to take place before the reintegration? Or maybe this is somehow a dream caused by the procedure?
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:26 AM on February 7 [3 favorites]

"Goddamn it, Seth, do it" is one of the greatest reveals I've ever seen! Immediate confirmation of what we suspected delivered purely in subtext. The brilliance of this show in a single line.

I suspect this means we'll get a lot less John Turturro going forward, and that sucks. But everything else about this episode was absolutely perfect.
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:37 AM on February 7 [13 favorites]

I suspect this means we'll get a lot less John Turturro going forward, and that sucks

Maybe, but I don't know -- we did see that Burt is following (stalking?) Irv's outtie, so maybe just more outie Irv? But also - once Mark's reintegration is complete, I can't imagine he wouldn't do for Irv (and maybe Dylan) what Petey did for him.

I also wonder if he'll find a way to confront Helena about what she did to him.
posted by tzikeh at 7:43 AM on February 7 [11 favorites]

What a great episode.

Throughout the different scenes, I kept weighing the different scenarios: are we looking at innie Mark or integrated Mark, are we looking at innie Helly or outie Helena...
posted by applesurf at 7:46 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]

I feel like this season of the show has downgraded Severance from 'perfect media' to 'good TV' for me, the plotting/writing is a little more transparent as far as setting up arcs for this or that character. However, i appreciate that they are able to keep mining the basic premise in new ways as they move things forward.
posted by QDeesp at 9:31 AM on February 7 [6 favorites]

I have a feeling they aren’t outside at all, but on the “Training Floor.” I guess we’ll see. I respect that they seem willing to break the format of the show and let it evolve, but again we’ll see how committed they are to that path. I thought BSG was going to really make a change in season 3, but it only lasted 4 episodes and then it was back to the same old format. Which is when it really started feeling like it was treading water.
posted by rikschell at 9:48 AM on February 7 [4 favorites]

I wondered too if this was somehow really inside. But then, the pool of water had to be real, real enough for Helena to actually be at risk. It’s funny how I can roll with severance technology but my disbelief starts to unsuspend itself for a field trip.
posted by eirias at 10:15 AM on February 7 [2 favorites]

I have a feeling they aren’t outside at all, but on the “Training Floor.”

I had the same "is any of this real" thought too -- Woe's Hollow is so hyper-real that it starts to feel synthetic? But there's been no suggestion at all in the show that Lumon's capable of creating synthetic realities.

The innies' world being a simulation -- so the entire severed floor is synthetic -- would maybe neatly permit Miss Casey to exist in innie-world even though Mark saw Gemma's body in outie-world. But I don't see how to square that thought with the fact that the innies did see the outie world during Overtime Protocol.

(On a meta level, I'm also wondering how much of this was real location vs. Volume trickery.)

A minor observation: just the title card this week, no animated title sequence; same as S2E1 and presumably for the same reason, that this is -- supposedly, at least -- an all-innies episode.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:26 AM on February 7 [3 favorites]

I'm both a bit disappointed and a bit relieved at the bombshell: disappointed to see it confirmed, but relieved that it it was dealt with mid-season instead of being a last-episode “twist” we all saw coming.

I'd hoped the Helena-as-Helly theory wasn't true for two main reasons: (a) it undermines Helena’s seeming stubborn belief in the ideals of severance — a belief that told us so much about her character last season; (b) it sidelines the series’ most dynamic character and the audience avatar (the one who, at the beginning of the show, is the same blank slate that we are, and learns at the rate we do).

I understand that the motivation here is now that “Cold Harbor must succeed,” and that it's perhaps a time to compromise on ideals… but Helena doubled down on severance last season when it damn near killed her. It seems unlikely to me that she (or whoever was responsible for that decision) would've done an about-face in the span of just a few months.

I also think that either Irv's revelation (“only an Eagan would’ve had the power to send their outie to the severed floor”) was not quite earned… or there's a lot of stuff we don't yet know about his outie's life that will fill in some of those blanks. (For instance: did we even see the moment that his innie switched to his outie at the end of the overtime contingency? If so, I don't remember it. It would maybe shed light on why outie Burt is following outie Irv around.)

I'm going to focus on the positives, though:

1. Any act that Helena took in the guise of Helly could be held up as suspect, obviously. Chortling at the “masturbation turns you into a tree” parable is the obvious one, and is absolutely something that Helly R would've chortled at. I think the primary goal for Helena was to stay in character in those moments, but it's clear she also appreciates that these are the kinds of violations she never gets to commit in her outie persona, and that it's cathartic to do it within a permission structure. Likewise with sleeping with Mark S. (Which is a profound violation in itself, but one I'm going to put aside and deal with later once I have a bit more information.)

It's over now, but at least she got to do these things that I suspect she's not actually allowed to do as Helena in her own life. (Imagine if John Harvey Kellogg’s descendants all had to follow his batshit ideas about physical and psychological health because they had been elevated to the equivalent of a religion.)

2. We get Helly R back! She'll be in a very strange position with what's left of MDR, needless to say. She's the most rebellious of them all, but will have to figure out how to earn their trust when she has nothing to barter. I agree that Dylan is probably re-radicalized at this point, and knows that Helly would be his most useful ally — but Helena is his arch-foe, and he never knows which one he's talking to!

3. I know for a certainty we haven't seen the last of innie Irv, despite how loudly they seem to have shut the door on him as a character. Within this universe, reintegration is always possible for as long as the outie continues to walk the earth. From the perspective of the viewer, it's clear they've got too many irons in the Irv fire to end his story now. If nothing else, it would be a gross misuse of Christopher Walken.

One issue about #2, though: it's great for the plot and the characters, but maybe this is a Pandora's Box and that inflicts too much chaos onto the viewers. I was never a watcher of Battlestar Galactica, but one of the rules of the (reboot) universe was apparently that you can never prove that a human-looking character isn't a Cylon — and when I hear something like that, I feel like the writer is asking for permission up front to manipulate me however they see fit at any point in the future. (I now brace for two dozen of you to explain exactly how I've gotten BSG wrong; I'll grant the premise up front if it means we can skip that derail.)

I don't mind the complexity, but I do somewhat dread the possibility of a weekly discussion in these threads about which consciousness was in charge of Helena's body in various scenes. I'm optimistic that the writers have some ideas up their sleeves for how to demonstrate this to the viewers at the moments when it's most crucial to know. (I'm sure the ambiguity is part of the point, and that works great as a theme for a 2.5-hour Christopher Nolan movie, but less so for an open-ended narrative that you need to build upon over time.)

Meanwhile, I'm hungry for more depiction of the conflict between Eagan True Believers (like Selvig and, apparently, Milchick) and Opportunists (skeptical of the lore but happy to use the power — like Helena herself and, apparently, the board). It was smart of the show to add some depth to Helena and send her on a journey over the course of this season.

It also sets Selvig up to be a very strange sort of character: narratively the hero, the one who believes in the triumph of good over bad. But I suspect that, to her, “good” means “someone who never masturbates because it turned Dieter Eagan into a tree,” and “bad” means “someone who only pretends to believe in the ideals of Kier in order to pursue power for its own sake.” (There are, uh, real-world parallels here that I choose not to explore right now.)

Anyway, I'm enjoying typing all this stuff into a text box and have it age so poorly. Let's do it again next week!
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:29 AM on February 7 [14 favorites]

Agreed entirely about Irv's logical leap. It doesn't make sense if he's who the narrative is telling us he (still) is, i.e. NOT his outie or reintegrated. He wasn't totally honest about his outie field trip either, so by his same logic, nobody should trust him... but should also believe he's an Eagan? It makes no sense.

Also, it seems strange that Helena would 'play Helly' to the degree that she'd make fun of the Kier story - I'm not even sure that the actual Helly would do this, given the current subterfuge they're attempting. However, a fully reintegrated Helly/Helena might have confused motivations, and it'd explain her possibly-honest admission about being ashamed of her outie, to Mark. But that really flies in the face of my 'the Eagans refuse to acknowledge reintegration' thought.

Back to Irv, yeah - I'm fairly certain we'll get more of his outie and Burt, and I hope his innie. Along those same lines, it'd be such a tragedy if we didn't get more actual Helly, so I've got some sort of confused hope that these characters aren't gone forever.
posted by destructive cactus at 10:56 AM on February 7

One issue about #2, though: it's great for the plot and the characters, but maybe this is a Pandora's Box and that inflicts too much chaos onto the viewers. I was never a watcher of Battlestar Galactica, but one of the rules of the (reboot) universe was apparently that you can never prove that a human-looking character isn't a Cylon — and when I hear something like that, I feel like the writer is asking for permission up front to manipulate me however they see fit at any point in the future. (I now brace for two dozen of you to explain exactly how I've gotten BSG wrong; I'll grant the premise up front if it means we can skip that derail.)

No, you're not wrong, and characters suddenly being revealed in BSG as Cylons went from "whoa!" to "really?! REALLY? C'mon!" It got old by the time the show ended. But I don't think this really applies to this show, because I'd like to think the writers care about the viewers enough not to just jerk us around like that. Outside of Mark's reintegration, only Helena was in a position to control her status as an innie/outie. Dylan and Irving, so far as we know, don't have the access to do so, so we shouldn't need to worry on their status - and even if so, what would be/would have been achieved by hiding their hand as being an outie or innie. I think if the line is crossed between outie world and innie world, then it will be clearly communicated to the viewer.

The "twins" and MDR's number work made me wonder if somehow the innies aren't subconsciously programing robot twins of themselves, essentially wiring the synapses and so on. Or alternatively, creating the means by which a new personality can somehow be copied and transferred into a new body. We've seen Helena's father, the dude is old. The rich and powerful crave immortality.

I don't think they were on the training floor, so either it is a simulation or they were outside.

I recall Jeff Probst' speech at Tribal Councils, "Your fire is your life, when it's gone, so are you." In this case, Irving's fire went out and it was in the darkness, though, when he finally had some kind of revelation. Was the zombie-like woman reflective that perhaps Helena may not be in her original body? What is Burt there for, he was this reassurance for Irving, that everything would be fine? Hence Irving's peaceful embrace of termination?

Next episode we're going to definitely see another sit down with Helena, Milchick is going to be in it for something, and Dylan is radicalized and will probably find a way to communicate something to his outie's wife. She's the note free communication means.

As for the weirdness of the episode, I don't think it's any weirder than any of the conceits we have seen last season or this season. Why would a company have a basement full of goats? Why is there a cultural history of interdepartmental fighting that everyone accepts being represented in paint? We just took the weird outside, that's it.

Milchick's "This is the tallest waterfall in the world!" said with solemnity and gravitas just cracked me up to no end.
posted by Atreides at 10:56 AM on February 7 [8 favorites]

However, a fully reintegrated Helly/Helena might have confused motivations, and it'd explain her possibly-honest admission about being ashamed of her outie, to Mark.

She isn't reintegrated -- the Glasgow block wouldn't have worked if she were.
posted by tzikeh at 11:10 AM on February 7 [8 favorites]

I don't think the entire park was an illusion, but I'm wondering if they have the ability to inject a little AR into their minds via the chip. So the twins could have been non-physical. I'm not sold on this idea but I'm not sold on Milchick (or should we just call him Seth now?) dragging around a bunch of animatronics either. I'm guessing this will remain unresolved.

Throughout the episode I presumed that the Innies were active via something similar to the Overtime Contingency, but something for long-term where no one has to hold dials in place. Like a Field Trip Contingency.

But as Irv is drowning Helena, Milchick radios a command to turn off the "Glasgow block" which I assume is the same block that allows Helena to exist on the Severed floor. So is this a Severed...forest? It seems that way to me. Here's how I see the pre-episode logistics:

1. Drive outie to forest/park (individually of course, to stagger the entrances)
2. At some point before the Severed border (parking lot? welcome building?) activate the Glasgow lock.
3. Walk them into place on the cliff or in the middle of the frozen lake
4. Remove Glasgow lock (excepting Helena)

I wonder if we'll ever see the Outie side of this.

"The MDR group is having a team-building special field trip to the forest, so we'll drive you out after you get to work."

"Wow sounds intense considering they've mostly never seen the outside, won't they freak out?"

"Don't worry we've been prepping them for days!"

I thought Milchick gave the command to revert Irving a bit early. He told him to walk into the forest but he was still right there. Great for dramatic effect but won't he just turn around and see everyone? To outie Irv the perspective would just be "Oh is the field trip over? Who are all these people Mr. Milchick?"
posted by mikepop at 11:11 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]

one of the rules of the (reboot) universe was apparently that you can never prove that a human-looking character isn't a Cylon... I now brace for two dozen of you to explain exactly how I've gotten BSG wrong

No, you're not wrong

Yes, you are wrong. Baltar's Cylon detector, introduced mid-Season-1, worked perfectly. He just... lied about the results and then never completed all the blood tests for Reasons. (TBF he was kind of busy in all sorts of other ways)

also the sexy-times glowing spines (whoops didn't think that one through at all) or them being able to just plug a CAT-5 cable into their veins (again, whoops)
posted by tzikeh at 11:14 AM on February 7 [2 favorites]

How can they actually be outside, and have a television, and "twins" (holographs or animatronics?), and not be cold, and find a seal up a creek in a landlocked bit of landscape? How can Milchick show up when summoned? They have to be in a Lumon controlled environment of some sort.

I also think that either Irv's revelation (“only an Eagan would’ve had the power to send their outie to the severed floor”)

The only people that the Innies know of that have immense power must be Kier Eagan and his family; and the monitor in his dream was filled with the letters E A G A N and then resolved into Hellena's face.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:14 AM on February 7 [8 favorites]

"The MDR group is having a team-building special field trip to the forest, so we'll drive you out after you get to work."

Yeah, this is why I'm pretty sure this is a Lumon controlled environment of some sort. I don't believe there was any outie driving to and from a national park or whatever. Maybe they set them all to GOLDFISH or LULLABY or whatever contingency it is that lets one manipulate severed people while they're unaware, and woke them in the wilderness. I guess we'll find out more if/when we see o-Irving.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:23 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]

Yeah, the fact that Milchick apparently 'switched' Irving's innie off right there in front of everyone makes no sense unless there's an unknown 'third' maybe maintenance persona within them, which of course, now the other 3 refiners would see, and I believe they can't have their memories wiped, either due to lack of technology to do so, or that it'd disrupt their refining work, so ...

Milchick said "do it", and didn't mention what 'it' was, but when he had Helena/Helly 'switched', he had a specific term for that. Maybe "do it" meant that all four refiners get put into this 'third' state we know nothing about and I'm just making up?
posted by destructive cactus at 11:31 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]

That would make sense; after all the trip is effectively over. It would also simplify the logistics.
posted by mikepop at 11:36 AM on February 7

hmmmm, I don't think these are personas, I think they are just means of control. Milchick switched Hellena out of GLASGOW contingency to get Helly R back. The names of all the contingencies from Season 1's view into the security office are:

BEEHIVE

BRANCH TRANSFER

CLEAN SLATE

ELEPHANT

FREEZE FRAME

GLASGOW

GOLDFISH

LULLABY

OPEN HOUSE
posted by oneirodynia at 11:37 AM on February 7 [6 favorites]

so LULLABY them all to sleep (or FREEZE FRAME I guess), they all come to back in the office elevator next work day.
posted by mikepop at 11:44 AM on February 7

With the exception of the severance technology itself, all the tech we've seen has been 10-20 years behind what we have today. VHS tapes and "retro' DVD players, no smartphones, basic terminals instead of PCs. etc.

So I seriously doubt Lumon has sophisticated AR/VR tech akin to the Star Trek holodeck. And seems to me the twins were just very basic animatronics.

That does imply some other workers are around, moving the twins, setting up the tents, etc. But that strikes me as way more likely than any sudden jump in technology
posted by Frayed Knot at 12:14 PM on February 7

To be fair, Helena didn't make up "night gardener." She just said the person she saw was like a gardener or something. Irving caught her out with "a night gardener?"

She made up seeing a gardener. Because it wasn't a well-thought out lie, the fact that she said she saw a gardener at night gave her away. I didn't say she made up the profession.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:18 PM on February 7 [1 favorite]

Severance still needs to abide by internal rules. The rules we have so far are that severance is activated mechanically by some sort of wireless signal; this can be ambient (as on the severed floor), or manual (as in the overtime protocol). It can also be deactivated when it would otherwise be active, as we only just learned with the Helena situation.

So Helly got activated because someone in a control room turned a switch. That's all. If they sprung a “third state” on us, at this point, I'd want my money back from Apple.

With what I know now, I also can't let myself speculate that Lumon has power to, like, construct a holodeck — because I don't want to form any theories that involve the Eagans having weird cheat codes that don't fit the rest of the universe. I think Lumon just has special privileges in this state (abbreviated PE, and I'd be surprised if the E stood for something other than Eagan) that involve access to state/national parks.
posted by savetheclocktower at 12:19 PM on February 7 [2 favorites]

So I seriously doubt Lumon has sophisticated AR/VR tech akin to the Star Trek holodeck.

"Hologram" as in a laser projection onto scrim. Think Tupac, not The Doctor from Voyager. 2012 tech.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:22 PM on February 7 [1 favorite]

With the exception of the severance technology itself, all the tech we've seen has been 10-20 years behind what we have today. VHS tapes and "retro' DVD players, no smartphones, basic terminals instead of PCs. etc.

We've seen at least one flat screen TV and some smartphones, but they've been few and far between.
posted by jedicus at 12:49 PM on February 7 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I think that the technology decade isn't uniformly behind the present. I think that it is deliberately blurred, mixing the last few decades, so that the show won't quickly become dated in its look (especially since 3 years passed between season 1 and 2!).

It jumped out to me that miss huang just used a standard issue moog theremini at the campfire. Even though it is a current consumer gadget, it has enough of a retro look that it fit in fine.
posted by umbú at 1:04 PM on February 7 [5 favorites]

I think Lumon has a legacy software/hardware issue, in the way that many large institutions with custom software were using mainframes long past their due date. Some still do! Imagine developing the software/hardware combo that is capable of letting MDR do its thing. Ten years later do you want to be the one to lead the project to port it to ARM chips or whatever?
posted by mikepop at 1:53 PM on February 7 [6 favorites]

It's a red herring to focus on tech that "fits" a specific period when discussing a show about a company that puts chips in its workers in an outpatient procedure so it can turn off their normal lives as they ride the elevator to their office. 90% of the gadgets and machines we see on the show are chosen for aesthetic purposes- to look good as well create a vague sense of historic time. 1960s workplace. 1980s cars filling the lot. 2010s phones. Deliberate choices were made to mix up periods so that viewers would feel slightly disoriented, per Dan Erickson. Obviously there's a wide span of tech between familiar devices we've seen and what Lumon is capable of, but there's no particular point in time that the show is meant to be taking place other than "now-ish". Mark's driver's license showed he was born in 1978, and it was issued in 2020. We don't have Severance chips in our timeline, and nearly everyone has a smartphone. The Severance world is not quite our universe and the rules are somewhat different.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:04 PM on February 7 [14 favorites]

I do have my concerns about how they manage to tell this story. This thread maps out the difference between "mystery box" and "puzzle box" plots (the former is pantsed, the latter is plotted). Generally the best a mystery box can pull off is an ending where you shrug and say, "okay that wasn't AWFUL" (I'm thinking Orphan Black and the Leftovers). Whereas a puzzle box has a shot at an ending that makes sense even if you think about it and hold it up from all angles.

From what they've shown us so far, I would be shocked and amazed if they have a sensible ending plotted out. It seems like the thrill of the show is in the mood, the mindbending discoveries along the way, in the parable-like nature of its themes. But I know all too well that it's far easier to pull out a lot of great ideas that are thrilling when they come out of the bag than it is to tie them all together for a satisfying conclusion. After all, TV is meant to keep you watching, keep you hooked. So I'm trying to enjoy the journey and not worry too much about the destination.

Still, I have the utmost respect for a show that actually knows where it's going and manages to get there.
posted by rikschell at 2:26 PM on February 7 [12 favorites]

I wasn't vibing with this episode at first, but boy did it stick the landing. John Turturro is amazing, at the risk of stating the obvious. His nemesis-chemistry with Tramell Tillman is electric.

Irv's dream made me think about how in dreams, words and numbers don't really make sense. I've often had dreams where I'm trying to put books in a certain order, or dial a phone number, and the letters and numbers keep changing, or my text messages are in cyrillic or whatever. I've read that this is a common trigger for people who intentionally lucid dream, to "wake up" in the dream and experience it more consciously. Personally I'm not interested in intentional lucid dreaming (if I'm asleep I want to be asleep), but that little fact stuck with me. It seems thematically congruent with the way MDR sorts its numbers--subconsciously, by instinct alone--and also the way severance and reintegration seem to have something to do with separating and realigning brain waves or something. Then the fact that they are so strict about not dozing off on the severed floor, and the fact that outie Irv may be intentionally sleep-depriving himself to try to send his innie a message. IDK, I don't have a coherent theory here, just saying that all feels related, at least thematically if not literally.

On that topic, it did seem odd that neither the innies themselves nor Milchick commented on the innies being given the opportunity to properly sleep for literally the first time in their lives.

It is interesting to note in the BTS that they thought the Helena reveal would be a big surprise and that the hints would only be apparent on rewatch, because it almost seemed like there were just as many fakeouts that this could still be Helly as there were hints it was Helena. That combined with great performances, writing, staging, etc. meant the reveal was still shocking even though everyone on the internet knew it was a strong possibility. Waking up early to contemplate the freezing cold waterfall definitely seemed like something Helly might do. If it were Helly from season one, in fact, it would be a really bad idea for Lumen to give her unfettered access to such a thing--as Irv promptly demonstrated. So in a way, it was both a fake in one direction and a hint in the other.

Also, underwater zolly shot!
posted by lampoil at 3:37 PM on February 7 [7 favorites]

I couldn't even start apple playback Thursday - so many trying to stream it? Anyway, writing my thoughts, then reading you all.

Argh, when I said I didn't want them to do a Fringe, that's it. (There, the lead guy unknowingly slept with an alt universe version of his real deal.)

Men, they don't even know when they're with a completely different and worse alter ego.

But Irving, the gay man KNEW! Bless his heart, "Helly would never be that cruel." Oh my, YES, Irv.

Britt Lower really telegraphed (well) who she was this episode. Helly would've led the charge into the forest. Helly wouldnt had listened raptly to the story or stared at the waterfall. (The biggest waterfall in the world! Lumon is so full of crap.)
posted by NorthernLite at 4:04 PM on February 7 [6 favorites]

Oh, reading some of the comments above, and perhaps someone's going to be upset on my framing of Mark and Helena here. (And I also didn't mean Irving was only perceptive because of his orientation. Ugh.)

My main point, however you view what happened, it's more or less a Fringe plot redux, and Im disappointed.
posted by NorthernLite at 4:22 PM on February 7 [1 favorite]

savetheclocktower, John Harvey Kellogg is a really apt comparison! I wouldn't be surprised if he were a direct inspiration for Kier. The combination of health/hygiene, unfettered capitalism, and eugenics is very much the vibe.
posted by ourobouros at 4:55 PM on February 7 [4 favorites]

also - watch what Britt Lower does with her face at 23:11. She moves just a few muscles and miraculously transforms from Helly R to Helena. It's profoundly great acting. It says SO MUCH without a single word, in just a second.

She has done such a great job the entire series. In the first episode when she wakes up on the table she’s practically feral. As the season goes along she’s got that “ok I don’t like this but I’ll deal with it” look, the first few nervous smiles emerging. Late in the first season she’s much more confident. The facial expressions communicate all of that. In this season, Helena tries to be Helly but exactly as you said, her face changing like that showed this was clearly not Helly. The cold, measured Helena in the previous few episodes are so much different from the skittish Helly. Lower is just amazing in this role.

Trammell Tillman has been stellar as Milchick the entire show. This episode was his best yet. He was the corporately friendly Milchick and ranged all the way to the “I’m going to end your innie” cold, angry, almost pure evil. John Turturro was also great this episode.
posted by azpenguin at 5:12 PM on February 7 [7 favorites]

I’ve been thinking about what the ultimate point of this all is for Lumon - maybe it’s to hit a critical mass of severed workers who are all some degree of Kier-indoctrinated and compliant as innies, and then one day just… don’t turn the severance off. Presto, Lumen has just taken over all of society by flipping a switch. Obviously this only works if the innies don’t rebel though, which does seem to be a problem.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:22 PM on February 7 [3 favorites]

Put me on the list of people questioning the reality of the whole setup here. This is the first thing we see after Mark gets garage brain surgery after all. Sure we’ve never seen evidence Lumon can do this, but it certainly seems like something they could do (less along the lines of rendering every snowflake like in a video game, more like just poking some experiential part of the brain to make it see what you intend it to see.) Based on Irving seeing the cubicles in the woods, maybe they’re on the Severed floor right now, and only think they’re not.

If this were true, you’d still have to explain why/how Helena was in actual danger of dying, to the point where they had to give up the ruse. Not sure about that, which is why I’m not sure about this theory.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:32 PM on February 7

The visuals are cold but the charactrers are not. No frosted breath, no chapping hands.

There is one point where we see breath. When Irv lies down on the rock and looks at the moon, we see his breath. I was actually scared we were going to see him stop breathing so was super worried in the scene!

And it 100% makes sense for Irv to sacrifice himself to expose Helena. He was already ready to walk out the door in the first episode.

I’m confused about what the innies know and what they don’t. They must know some things. They can name US states and know that bodybuilding competitions exist and can drive. Then wouldn’t they know about Niagara Falls? Wouldn’t they know that fire exists and is hot? I know it’s different experiencing things for the first time, but the show is acting like they’ve never heard of these things before. Maybe that’s part of accepting that they can somehow separate personal memories from knowledge? Not sure.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:48 PM on February 7

Maybe I'm going out on a limb, but is there anything to be said about the fact that when Irv previously would fall asleep in the office he would dream of outie things like black paint, whereas in this episode he dreams of the office? He seemed awfully confident about Helly/Helena and knew who she really was. Is it possible there was an Irv reintegration at some point that we aren't privy to yet? I mean that scientist is out there doing reintegration procedures and I'm assuming it wasn't *just* Pete and Mark, pretty sure she's reintegrating other Lumon employees too, no? So maybe there's multiple "ops" underway in the Lumon resistance.
posted by windbox at 6:22 PM on February 7 [5 favorites]

Wow. I’m having the opposite reaction of everyone else.

I’m out. Done. Through with this show. It gets more Lindelofy every week. Such a waste of time that by no means will pay off whenever ratings dip and they decide to finish it off. These writers have no idea what they’re dong or where this is going.
posted by dobbs at 6:43 PM on February 7 [3 favorites]

Is the Glasgow block somehow related to the Glasgow Coma Scale?
posted by emelenjr at 6:50 PM on February 7 [5 favorites]

I’m onboard with the theory that the end goal of Lumon is to somehow resurrect Keir into a biomechanical clone, mixing the 3d printing of O&D with the goats (and Ms Casey) of Mammillans. The guides are partially functional clones, much like Ms Casey is a partly functional clone of Mark’s wife.
posted by funkaspuck at 7:01 PM on February 7 [3 favorites]

These writers have no idea what they’re dong or where this is going.

I can understand not liking the way the story is developing, but that the writers have no idea what they're doing just seems unlikely. It's very clear that Helly=Helena was the intention from the first episode of this season, and we also see that seeds of the Glasgow protocol were planted last season. So many minor events have paid off several episodes later. Online analyses of everything from the elevator sounds to the computer workstations to the the paintings gifted to Milchick establish that there's a lot of meticulous plotting going on behind the scenes, even regarding situations that don't need that level of detail to pay off. What more could they do to establish that they are following a road map?
posted by xigxag at 7:23 PM on February 7 [12 favorites]

With what I know now, I also can't let myself speculate that Lumon has power to, like, construct a holodeck — because I don't want to form any theories that involve the Eagans having weird cheat codes that don't fit the rest of the universe. I think Lumon just has special privileges in this state (abbreviated PE, and I'd be surprised if the E stood for something other than Eagan) that involve access to state/national parks.
savetheclocktower

I agree that suddenly introducing heretofore unmentioned abilities would be disappointing, but this being the real world also just doesn't make sense. Not just for the weird lack of cold reactions and other things mentioned above, but dropping the Innies into a real wilderness with apparently zero explanation or preparation is just insanely dangerous and reckless in a way that Lumon has never been with them before. It would be dangerous to drop people in the real world into such a situation, let alone people who have literally never been outside of a modern office building before.

Irv could have easily slipped and broke something running on the ice in the beginning, or fallen through the ice. He's then asked to climb up a steep, snow-and-ice covered path up a cliff presenting all kinds of ways he could have been hurt or killed. Presumably they were being monitored somehow, but even still unless Lumon had a Superman clone ready they couldn't have saved the Innies from harm like that.

So if this was real, why expose the Innies to injury or even death in this way? Even Helena was at real risk here.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:47 PM on February 7

Lumon does a lot of things that are very risky and don't make sense - I think we have to remember that this is a cult; their fanaticism can and will overrule logic. Maybe they just really wanted to educate MDR on this weird jackoff homunculus fable. I still have a lot of doubts about what happened here, but right now I'm chalking it up to Lumon being very poor decision makers, made worse by recent events.
posted by destructive cactus at 8:19 PM on February 7 [6 favorites]

My comment to dobbs is by no means should you continue the show if it's starting to feel not worth it, but showrunner Dan Erickson has said there's a very clear end point in his mind, and he's prepared for the show to run somewhere between 3 and 6 seasons, and is laying things out based on that. He also said that the theme of the first year was childhood and the second year is adolescence, so it maybe feels like this season is more all-over-the-place and frenetic than the last one (so it might be that the show has changed in a way that not all season 1-lovers will enjoy! Season 1 certainly felt meticulously structured...) - but I do think this is all being done with deliberation.
posted by nightcoast at 8:50 PM on February 7 [10 favorites]

windbox: "Maybe I'm going out on a limb, but is there anything to be said about the fact that when Irv previously would fall asleep in the office he would dream of outie things like black paint, whereas in this episode he dreams of the office? He seemed awfully confident about Helly/Helena and knew who she really was."

Yeah, this is what I've arrived at after some reflection. For whatever reason, Irv's severance procedure is not perfect; we know aspects of his two selves communicate sporadically via dreams. (Outie Irv has paintings of the elevator room, and Innie Irv dreams of black paint.)

We also know that Outie Irv is a closet severance skeptic and has the names and locations of known severed employees, so he's got an agenda. Outie Irv would definitely recognize Helena Eagan on sight. So it's not too farfetched that Innie Irv could have a dream that gives him a strong subconscious hunch that Helly R is an Eagan.

I think I'm willing to admit that this revelation on Innie Irv's part was earned, though I do still hope we get the backstory filled in here. I don't think that Irv has been reintegrated — I just think that total severance is a tough needle to thread, and it would make total sense to me that you can't always build an impenetrable vault inside of someone's brain.

star gentle uterus: "So if this was real, why expose the Innies to injury or even death in this way? Even Helena was at real risk here."

I do agree with destructive cactus here; it's refreshing to see the Big Bad Corporation portrayed not as an omniscient, omnipotent megaboss but rather as a bureaucracy that has occasional fuck-ups. (It's also much truer to life, I'd argue, and makes the central conflict much more fair and interesting, like how a team of land speeders can take out an AT-AT in Star Wars.) So it's possible that this retreat is just a bad idea; if Lumon were smart they wouldn't have endangered Helena to the extent they already have.

I also don't think I necessarily have to bring my skepticism into the universe and have it accounted for. Fiction sometimes does earn a bit of suspension of disbelief — the Rule of Cool applies, I think, such that I'm willing to allow a show to swing for the fences and do such an out-of-the-box episode.

The previouslies hint at the reasoning for the retreat (making prisoners think they're free), and Lumon probably also wanted to expose the innies to some amount of hazard just to make them appreciate the hermetic environment of the severed floor. Past that, some stuff needed to happen that sets up the rest of the season; and it would've been hard for Irv to pull off his gambit on the severed floor. It's not seamless, but it works well enough for me.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:10 PM on February 7 [7 favorites]

I'm enjoying every bit of this ride, although I once spent a whole year arguing with Dave Barry on "LOST" forums so perhaps my opinion shouldn't be trusted.

I do appreciate this show for the "vibe" more than the incredibly realistic sci-fi experience so I'm willing to let a lot of stuff go.

On that topic, it did seem odd that neither the innies themselves nor Milchick commented on the innies being given the opportunity to properly sleep for literally the first time in their lives.

I would have liked to see Dylan excited to have dreams. "I'm gonna ride a motorcycle and meet supermodels all night!"

...possibly-honest admission about being ashamed of her outie, to Mark

That's about the moment I was sure it was Helena, and I interpreted it as "I'm ashamed of myself."

I won't say Helena is a convert but she obviously is tempted by the Innie world, with the uncomplicated sexual chemistry and scheduled tasks and nobody calling her a "Fetid Moppet". It's like she went to Narnia and got to see how her uninhibited self lived, and started to have doubts about the self she left behind.

a television DVD player AV stand on a rocky ledge with no visible extension cord or generator or anything

Since we've had a Battlestar Galactica debunk I think this is fair game.

Assuming the technology is (alternate universe) 20 years ago, or whatever you want to call it... You could easily run a small TV and a DVD player off a car battery and a power inverter for 60 minutes in the 1990s (when DVDs first appeared) or even in the 70s.
posted by mmoncur at 12:12 AM on February 8 [7 favorites]

Skipping down here to comment and possibly missing something from the discussion above:

- I don't believe the outtie Mark, Irv, and Dylan gave permission for the ORTBO. So they must just have come to work as usual. So they're going to need some kind of explanation 'note' when their innies are transitioned back.

- I think when innies sleep this enables some kind of covert channel with their respective outties. Outtie Irv specifically has been communicating with innie Irv for a while. (And innie Irv was specifically punished for this before as we saw early on in S1.)

- Outtie Irv let innie Irv know that Helly was an Eagan during the dream he had when he fell asleep.

I'm also curious: what, if anything, as been found in the screens we saw in innie Irv's dream. There seemed to be several coherent strings in there.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:30 AM on February 8

The numbers turn to the letters 'E', 'A', 'G', 'N', and facial features seem to appear.
posted by techSupp0rt at 3:39 AM on February 8 [1 favorite]

- I don't believe the outtie Mark, Irv, and Dylan gave permission for the ORTBO.

That's what I thought too. I fully expect Outie Mark to wake up in an elevator next episode and discover that an extra day has gone by.

I assume they came to work as usual and then the Lullaby protocol (or whatever) was used to knock them out so the innies woke up some time later outside rather than waking in the elevator.
posted by mmoncur at 3:58 AM on February 8 [3 favorites]

the Lindelhof comparison lands differently for me given that I’ve watched (and loved) Watchmen
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:48 AM on February 8 [6 favorites]

I don't believe the outtie Mark, Irv, and Dylan gave permission for the ORTBO. So they must just have come to work as usual. So they're going to need some kind of explanation 'note' when their innies are transitioned back.

I think they had to be told something to make arrangements for being gone for a night. Gretchen is going to need a babysitter so she can go to work, Devon might have had plans with Mark, and someone needs to walk and feed Radar! Alternately, someone from Lumon might take care of that communication after they are already on the trip, but that seems more awkward.

That’s not to say they were told about the ORTBO, but at minimum they must have known they were going to be “away” for a night.
posted by mikepop at 5:06 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]

I've seen some pretty interesting comparisons between the underwater shot of Helena being drowned by Irv, and the pineapple bobbing shot of Helly in the claymation re-orientation video, as well as other signposts. On the wall of the room where they watched that video there's a poster that says "Hang in there" and rather than the typical cat hanging on a limb, there's a silhouette of Dylan holding open the switches for the overtime contingency. Then at the end of the episode, the last thing Dylan says to Irv is oddly, "Hang in there." If they don't have a road map, there's a hell of a lot of accidental foreshadowing going on.
posted by Stanczyk at 6:03 AM on February 8 [9 favorites]

Got that backwards. It's the last thing Irv says to Dylan.
posted by Stanczyk at 6:31 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]

Not to try an one-up dobbs or anything, but I felt that last week's Mammalians Nurturable was pure Rule of Cool and won't ever be explained to my satisfaction. Two weeks in a row they've taken out huge advances on our suspension of disbelief, and I will be most pleasantly surprised if the checks clear.
posted by whuppy at 6:44 AM on February 8 [7 favorites]

I still have no fricking clue what's going on, but just need to say that, alongside Eddie Redmayne's Jackal, Seth Milchick is the most stylish man on television.
posted by essexjan at 7:23 AM on February 8 [16 favorites]

Stylish and oh so polished. That motorcycle helmet of his is amazing.
posted by azpenguin at 8:41 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]

the Lindelhof comparison lands differently for me given that I’ve watched (and loved) Watchmen

And Mrs. Davis!
posted by simonw at 8:44 AM on February 8 [5 favorites]

The thing I can’t get past is why severance. Apart from whatever it is Lumon needs the severed employees to do, but why do they need to be severed to do it?

The central conceit of severance is literalizing and extending the metaphor of work/life selves to the point where the work self is an entirely different consciousness. But the show as presented seems uninterested in exploring any tension in that idea. There’s little dramatic irony between the innie and outie worlds, since the outie world doesn’t know what’s going on in the innie world and the innie world has a mostly constructed view of the outie world.

The first season has much more of a conspiracy thriller flavor in the outie world parts with Petey and the question of what Lumon is really doing. There’s more focus in the outie world on perspectives on severance and Lumon’s broader political push, suggesting the corporation is trying to grow its power and severance is a way to hide whatever nefarious thing they’re doing.

But most of the theories for what’s happening in the innie world are really insular, like creating vessels for Kier Eagan to be reincarnated in or something. If that’s the case, why would Lumon need broader public acceptance of severance? Why even need severance at all? Even if severance is required to accomplish what they’re doing, why would they want public or political acceptance of the procedure?

I could see the push for severance in the outie world if dual consciousness played a central role in the Eagan religion and they want to spread their religion and public acceptance of dual consciousness, but if it’s just a method to keep what they’re doing secret, why even publicize it? Why not have severance be a secret procedure where employees think they’re getting mind-wiped at the end of the day because they think they’re working on sensitive data, but don’t realize their work self is an entirely different consciousness?

I feel like severance was a fun conceit that allows the writers to pursue the story that interests them (the surreal odyssey of the innie worker’s “awakening”) but I don’t see that they’ll be able to tie that into the outie world as presented in a meaningful or satisfying way.

(For example, a big point in the first season was Cobel drilling the chip out of Peter’s head to recover evidence of reintegration because the Board refused to acknowledge its possibility. But as viewers we don’t even know the value severance holds for Lumon, so why would we even care about whatever danger reintegration presents?)
posted by fryman at 8:46 AM on February 8 [6 favorites]

Grumpybearbride was convinced that this episode was aired out of order, because Mark was reintegrated at the end of E3 and there is very little indication that this is a reintegrated Mark wandering the snowy plains. I'm giving the show a chance, but I get the feeling that there is a lot of throwing stuff at walls, hoping things will stick. And Helly being Helena was a surprise to absolutely nobody, which made the BTS sequence kind of cringey.

Re: mystery box and The Leftovers, that show worked so well precisely because it wasn't about solving anything. The world was mysterious and cruel and unknowable, and what mattered was the people who were experiencing that. IMO it was an absolute masterpiece, the only flaw being Laurie's apparent reanimation in the final episode.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:49 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]

I totally agree about The Leftovers, grumbybear69. Weird and wonderful television, but Laurie should never have been able to come back.
posted by essexjan at 9:13 AM on February 8 [1 favorite]

insane foreshadowing!! (post on severance subreddit)
posted by pjenks at 9:16 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]

showrunner Dan Erickson has said there's a very clear end point in his mind, and he's prepared for the show to run somewhere between 3 and 6 seasons,

Are you aware that Lindelof and the other Lost people said exactly the same thing in interview after interview about Lost? “Everything makes sense and will tie up in the end.” Then when people complained about how shit it got his answer was “It’s just a tv show. Get over it.”

And a creator saying it’ll last between 30 and 60 episodes does not instil me with confidence. Someone who knows what they’re doing would say it’ll last X episodes, give or take. Not “this long or possibly twice as long as that”. He’s essentially saying he can keep churning this nonsense out as long as it gets renewed.

Anyway, I hope they prove me wrong, but I’ll stop watching and will only revisit once the whole thing is done and there’s a consensus on the quality. I’d rather rewatch Deadwood than indulge Erickson’s method of creativity.
posted by dobbs at 10:02 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]

I think they are definitely inside the Lumon facilities. As others have pointed out:

1) It looks cold but they aren’t acting cold,
2) Electrical things still work
3) If they were outside Lumon space, Helena wouldn’t been the Glasgow block—everyone else would be on overtime protocol, and they’d have to use overtime protocol to get Helly back.

But the real kicker is;

4) Petey’s map includes a space marked Team Building.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:03 AM on February 8 [11 favorites]

And a creator saying it’ll last between 30 and 60 episodes does not instil me with confidence. Someone who knows what they’re doing would say it’ll last X episodes, give or take. Not “this long or possibly twice as long as that”.

I read that as “I’ve got six seasons worth of story, but we could bring things to a decent conclusion in three seasons if Apple says they aren’t renewing us.”
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:05 AM on February 8 [13 favorites]

Are you aware that Lindelof and the other Lost people said exactly the same thing in interview after interview about Lost?

dobbs - Ha, I was wondering if something like that happened - tbh I didn't watch Lost, and have avoided it in part because of the reputation around it. So this might be my first "puzzle-box-that's-actually-just-some-cardboard-glued-together" show disappointment experience (hopefully not!) but if it's giving you those vibes it seems to wise to wait it out and see if it coheres.

A question for me right now is about Helena's motivation. When Helena was vulnerable with Mark about being someone else, was that her trying to act out what she thought Helly would do in the situation, or was it her as Helena trying to talk from a real place, or both? None of this is excusing Helena's behavior - consent given due to deception is not consent. And again, I do wonder how reintegrated Mark is in this scene - if he's fully both Marks, I would also think that would be deceptive on his end.

Right now, I'm feeling like an underlying theme of this show is trying to push on how separate severed people really are - as in, if all that differs between innie and outie is memory, are they in fact just the same person with different initial conditions? If we had been born Eagans, or enslaved office workers, how would we be different? Could we call that person us? And if yes, what about other people entirely, whose minds are basically so similar to our own? That said, as someone with a job that can feel overwhelming at times, the notion of a procedure that would allow me to have some separation between that life and this life feels like exactly the sort of quick-fix solution I could imagine turning to in duress.

In this US political moment, I find it helpful to watch this show in which people push to try to find connection, both internally and externally. If Helena's arc ends up being a face turn, I wonder how that plays out, and if I'll still feel some comfort from that (it is very hard to imagine a face turn from the current class of powerful folk).
posted by nightcoast at 10:31 AM on February 8 [5 favorites]

What I remember about Lost is that the first three seasons were fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants plotting, with Abrams pushing to introduce mystery after mystery without any real plan for answering them (and Lindelof often pushing back, not wanting to show, say, polar bears without having some idea of why they were there). And when it worked, it worked incredibly well: It's been 20 years and we're still talking about the Season 2 cold open that introduced Desmond.

But towards the end of the third season, they realized that they were spinning their wheels because the standard model of television at the time was to just keep going as long as there were viewers, and they would never be able to deliver anything resembling a satisfying ending. The writers put together a three-season plan to land the airplane, and the last three seasons were reasonably direct in their story telling. But now the writers had two problems.

The first problem was that the writers had spent three seasons gleefully introducing plot thread after plot thread into the show's web of intrigue, without much plan on how they all fit together. And it was wildly entertaining, because the show could pursue any flight of fancy it wanted. But now that they had a plan to complete the show, they had to abandon some of those, bring others to an end, and stop generating new ones. It just couldn't possibly be as much as fun as the first few. I think we dropped out after a few episodes in Season 5.

The second—and I've written about this in regard to Game of Thrones as well as Lost—was that they had set up a core mystery that couldn't possibly have a satisfactory conclusion. It doesn't matter that the writers always thought that GoT and Lost were about the human characters (shows are, at their core, about the characters); they both introduced supernatural mysteries first and that primed audiences to think that those mysteries were the primary focus. Is there any possible description or rationale for the Island in Lost that could remotely live up to everything that happened in the first season?

Lindelof learned a lot from the reaction to the Lost conclusion. The Leftovers made it clear from the first episode that they were never going to solve the mystery of what caused The Departure; Watchmen kept the story tight on its characters from the start and its loose threads were all for minor characters, which helps make a world feel bigger; Mrs. Davis, for all its weirdness, wrapped up all of its themes quite nicely in the end. (BTW, If you haven't watched Mrs. Davis, you should.)

I don't know if Ericksen and the team have learned all the same lessons yet, but hopefully the biggest one that they have learned is "make sure your core mystery can be answered." I said this a few episodes ago, but there are only really two questions the show needs to answer: What are they actually doing in Macrodata Refinement, and how does that connect to Mark and Gemma? Answering those two questions will mean that they have to answer a lot of others—what is the point of severance, how does it connect to the weird Lumon cult, and what is Lumon actually trying to do—but it leaves a lot of room for them to let other threads dangle. It helps a lot that they aren't dealing with an incomprehensible entity like "magical traveling island" or "magical ice zombies." The answers to these mysteries are rooted in human desires, not the supernatural. Will the finale blow our minds? Probably not; endings are hard. But I think they've got a very good chance to have a satisfying ending that we won't hate.
posted by thecaddy at 11:09 AM on February 8 [7 favorites]

Just reupped our Apple TV last week, so I've been catching up, and I really appreciate reading everyone's comments. I'm impressed by how many of you picked up on the Helena/Helly thing right away.

I admit, I like the show the most when it's just straight up SF about a job that requires people to be severed, and I like it the least when it's Keir cult bullshit, so this season has been a mixed bag for me. Some of it is definitely still feeling burned by Battlestar and Lost, as folks said above, and worrying every time we have Keir cult bullshit or the goats that this is just "fun stuff" that will never be explained. But I'm still so intrigued by the actual severance part to stick it out through that, for now.
posted by hydropsyche at 11:21 AM on February 8 [5 favorites]

rikschell: From what they've shown us so far, I would be shocked and amazed if they have a sensible ending plotted out.

thecaddy: I don't know if Ericksen and the team have learned all the same lessons yet, but hopefully the biggest one that they have learned is "make sure your core mystery can be answered."

"Ben Stiller knows how Severance will end.... The executive producer and director teased that the Severance team knows how the series will end and how many seasons there will be." -- NYTimes interview
posted by tzikeh at 11:22 AM on February 8

nightcoast: "A question for me right now is about Helena's motivation. When Helena was vulnerable with Mark about being someone else, was that her trying to act out what she thought Helly would do in the situation, or was it her as Helena trying to talk from a real place, or both?"

My theory is that Helena is playing both sides of this. Perhaps she pitched it to the board as “I should infiltrate as my outie just to ensure the success of Cold Harbor — we can't afford sabotage from Helly R,” but in truth she was eager for the opportunity to live her life as Helly. Helly gets to be openly defiant of severance and Lumon; Helly gets to pursue relationships with co-workers; Helly enjoys some amount of impunity from punishment.

I can't tell if she's just lying to the board or also lying to herself. Maybe she tells herself she's just being a spy, but I've seen no evidence that Helena's presence has resulted in any outcome different than what would've happened if Helly had been in control. She could've claimed (or believed) that it was important to play the long game and not trigger any short-term skepticism; maybe she thought she'd foil the next act of rebellion at the very last minute. But from what we've seen so far, Helena's presence hasn't had any effect that Lumon couldn't have replicated from surveillance.

(Yes, they claim not to be surveilling the severed floor, but I think it ten times more likely that they'd just start using much more subtle surveillance equipment. Cameras can always be hidden in smoke detectors, computer monitors, or other innocuous objects.)

Anyway, when she tells Mark that she was ashamed of who she was, either she was telling the literal truth… or she now feels like she understands her innie so well that she can give an answer that feels honest to Helly's experience — which is just a step on the road toward admitting that her innie is right.

lampoil: "On that topic, it did seem odd that neither the innies themselves nor Milchick commented on the innies being given the opportunity to properly sleep for literally the first time in their lives."

I kinda feel like waffle parties involve sleep? Not sure about this. But when you eat a full plate of waffles with syrup and then take part in an orgy… are you supposed to peace out at midnight and then make your innie drive home and go to bed with sex stink all over him? “Sorry about the lube smell; here's a coupon for a free dessert at Pip’s”?

The point of a waffle party is to allow the innie to experience all these things that are particularly special to them because of their rarity: the literal waffles and syrup because they otherwise never eat breakfast; the sex because it's actual sex. It would make sense to me if “a full night’s sleep” rounded out the trifecta.

Just a theory, though! Again, Lumon is hubristic if they don't consider dreams to be a threat to severance.

You can keep the small plot holes outside of the narrative and impugn the writers, or you can bring them inside the universe and use them as evidence of an imperfect idea that a less cultish corporation would've abandoned already. I'm putting it all aside for now because (as unlikely as it may be) the possibility remains that all these doubts will be addressed later on in a satisfying way.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:24 AM on February 8 [6 favorites]

I mean, presumably exie-Ben Stiller knows how the series will end, but does he know when he is not acting in his capacity as an Executive Producer for the show?
posted by snofoam at 11:25 AM on February 8 [7 favorites]

Since my first comments, Ive heard what went into creating this episode on location. Supposedly not only the actors on cliffs and lakes (and getting dunked in brooks) was real, but even the fog- saturated woodsy cubicle. My first thought was, all that for the dumb Markena storyline?

But it now occurs to me, the setting was perfect for once-buttoned-down i-Irvings saga. The ultimate indoor guy in the great outdoors, at a place i-Irv wouldve once been thrilled to experience.

But he's now dressed like a 19th century Russian rebel, marching through the forest, having revelatory dreams, and finally threatening to kill the Czar's daughter to force out the truth and bring back the real heroine.
posted by NorthernLite at 11:57 AM on February 8 [3 favorites]

When Helly comes to Irving's tent and he asks her about her outside time, I was immediately sure that she was Helena. The voice she uses with him was Helena's voice, her face. It was amazing. And then to confirm the reveal in the episode made me feel slightly less clever, but I'm glad we know what this is now.

Mark's flash to Gemma/Ms. Casey when he's making love to Helly/Helena felt like confirmation that he's post-integration. So far, doing much better than Petey. So integrated Mark will meet Helly R rather than Helena. I'm curious what that will mean for both of them.

We still don't really know what happened in Irving's outside time after the knocking on the door. I still trust Burt and Burt/Irving.

I wonder if Dylan will get another chance to see Gretchen again, knowing as much as he does now.
posted by gladly at 12:10 PM on February 8

Petey’s map includes a space marked Team Building.

Well, if it's anything like the Break Room, then Team Building is where they build new people.
posted by pwnguin at 12:54 PM on February 8 [26 favorites]

Daaaamn.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:16 PM on February 8 [2 favorites]

lampoil: I wasn't vibing with this episode at first, but boy did it stick the landing. John Turturro is amazing, at the risk of stating the obvious. His nemesis-chemistry with Tramell Tillman is electric.

"nemistry" was right there
posted by tzikeh at 3:57 PM on February 8 [12 favorites]

Grumpybearbride was convinced that this episode was aired out of order, because Mark was reintegrated at the end of E3 and there is very little indication that this is a reintegrated Mark wandering the snowy plains.

There is evidence that reintegration process is beginning when Mark hallucinates his wife's face while having sex with Helena (and I would argue his whole slightly different attitude this episode). I don't think there was any indication that integration was a seamless overnight process where one is suddenly their whole outie self while on the severed floor.

3) If they were outside Lumon space, Helena wouldn’t been the Glasgow block—everyone else would be on overtime protocol, and they’d have to use overtime protocol to get Helly back.

This ^^^ is a really good point, something I'd missed when saying that they have to be in a Lumon controlled environment. Glasgow block isn't needed if they're out in the world.

Bonus: here's a screenshot of the monitor in Irv's dream with letters A E G N forming Helena's face.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:52 PM on February 8 [5 favorites]

In S1E3 on the way to the Perpetuity Wing, they encounter Optics & Design on the way back from an egg drop challenge in Team Building. So it has at least one innocuous non-holographic use.
posted by mikepop at 5:16 PM on February 8

So, I looked through Irv's dream sequence a bit. Besides the letters E-G-A-N, there's also some sections where the only characters on the screen are 7514, which should work for 7=G, 5=E, 1=A, and 14=N
posted by rmd1023 at 5:27 PM on February 8 [6 favorites]

Can someone please remind me of the significance of Irv calling Mr. Milchick "Seth"? I see from reactions here and elsewhere that it was a big deal -- particularly "now Dylan knows who Seth is" but I don't remember why.
posted by BlahLaLa at 6:17 PM on February 8

Remember how Ricken was recruited as a writer? Awfully convenient that a new Kier tome was introduced to the innies the following episode.

This is a nice point, pwnguin! Wasn't it in Ricken's book that he, too, traveled to live with the "paupers" or something similar to that?

I don't totally understand "The You You Are," actually. In season 1, it was a self-help book. But the part Natalie was reading when she visited Ricken sounded more like a memoir. And the voice of the memoir-writer was weird and sounded very Kier-esque, in a way the self-help stuff didn't.
posted by torticat at 6:20 PM on February 8 [2 favorites]

Question: Why did Helly's/Helena's twin look like she'd been hanged, or her neck had been broken, or something? Creepy.

Unrelated, I'm not sure if this was posted upthread, but Variety has an interesting interview with Ben Stiller about this episode. I'm not sure why he thought Irving's death would be a "fun" surprise for us as viewers.
posted by torticat at 6:25 PM on February 8

Why did Helly's/Helena's twin look like she'd been hanged, or her neck had been broken, or something

Well, she did hang herself in the elevator. Maybe she succeeded, and body replacement is further along than we imagine.
posted by pwnguin at 6:28 PM on February 8 [2 favorites]

BlahLaLa: Can someone please remind me of the significance of Irv calling Mr. Milchick "Seth"? I see from reactions here and elsewhere that it was a big deal -- particularly "now Dylan knows who Seth is" but I don't remember why.

From S02E03 - "Who Is Alive?"

***

Gretchen: You really don't know me at all?

i-Dylan: No. Um... Well, I mean, from the photos from just now, but...

Gretchen: Yeah, Seth warned me that this might be weird.

i-Dylan: Who's Seth?

Gretchen (overlapping): Don't you...

Miss Huang (interrupting over the intercom): Please refrain from sharing information that may be privileged or sensitive. Thank you.
posted by tzikeh at 7:03 PM on February 8 [8 favorites]

I've never been there but I've seen enough of the Hudson Valley school to know it was New York and when they mentioned in the after episode where they were, I looked it up.
The waterfall is real!
posted by fiercekitten at 7:25 PM on February 8

Irving also started to suspect when Helena touched him last episode, because it was so pointedly and completely out of character.
posted by sibboleth at 7:28 PM on February 8 [1 favorite]

Can someone please remind me of the significance of Irv calling Mr. Milchick "Seth"?

I assumed they all knew his first name, but of course would never use it so I was surprised when Dylan didn’t know.

My read was that Irving was using it a taunting emphasis that of course an Eagan mole would use the familiar “Seth” instead of “Mr.Milchick”.
posted by mikepop at 7:43 PM on February 8 [7 favorites]

The visuals are cold but the charactrers are not. No frosted breath, no chapping hands.

There was definitely frosted breath in some places. And I know that they filmed much of this up on a mountain in the winter.

However, it also seemed to me like there were a lot of CGI set extensions, very heavy color grading, etc. Much of this episode looked kinda fake to me, in a VFX way... which is not at all what I associate with this show. A little disappointing, because the cinematography of season 1 was absolutely flawless.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:35 PM on February 8 [1 favorite]

Are we meant to understand that Irving B. was communicating to his innie through dreams? And also vice-versa? And who is outie Irving B. in contact with?

This is what I have believed since the season 1 finale. Outie Irving seemed to me like he might actually be an anti-severance activist.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:37 PM on February 8 [6 favorites]

Remember how Ricken was recruited as a writer? Awfully convenient that a new Kier tome was introduced to the innies the following episode.

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind too. The narrative, and choice of vocabulary, were just so bizarre. Then again, any Kier Eagan writings/sayings we've ever heard have been similarly strange.

Come to think of it, it actually kind of reminds me of Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard had his own weird, cuckoo-bananas mythology, and a very weird way of writing about it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:42 PM on February 8 [2 favorites]

As many folks will remember, GLASGOW was one of the severance mode options seen in the security room in the S1 finale.

Mikepop, I think you've got it right. It's a mode that allows person with a severance chip to stay in outie mode in a severed space.

Up until now, I'd always assumed that the "flip" between outie and innie was effectuated by some kind of hidden mechanism in a portal like the elevator down to the severed floor, or the door to the fire stairs.

But now my sense is that the flip happens because of some kind of signal or field pervading the space. So there's nothing special about the elevator -- it's just the means by which they enter the basement floor, where their chips are then activated by the ambient field.

Glasgow evidently overrides the field.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:50 PM on February 8 [1 favorite]

My theory about the twins is that they may be some kind of balloons. They move in such a weird, drifty way.

And balloons seem to be a visual theme this season. There were the balloons with Mark's face on them that Milchick presented him with in the first episode. And there are balloons, and human figures that seem to turn into balloons, in the opening title sequence.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:53 PM on February 8 [4 favorites]

Was the zombie-like woman reflective that perhaps Helena may not be in her original body?

This was of course the "gaunt bride", or whatever she was called, from the Eagan story. But I think in Irving's dream, she was a symbol of Helly not really being Helly. When he awoke, he had a look of such certainty, like his dream had made everything clear to him.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:00 PM on February 8 [1 favorite]

From what they've shown us so far, I would be shocked and amazed if they have a sensible ending plotted out.

Dan Erickson has said repeatedly that he knows how the story will end.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:04 PM on February 8 [1 favorite]

It's like she went to Narnia and got to see how her uninhibited self lived, and started to have doubts about the self she left behind.

Speaking of Narnia: There was a point fairly early in this episode when the four of them were walking thru the mysterious wintry forest in their fur coats when it occurred to me that this was a scene right out of "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe".
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:10 PM on February 8 [11 favorites]

Putting my wacky theory out there:

- The MDR numbers are the contents of a brain, specifically the frozen brain of Kier Eagan that Lumon's entire goal is to revive to full consciousness in a computer. It is currently partially conscious and communicates with Natalie as "The Board".

I like it! Shades of the urban legends about Walt Disney. And it actually gibes with my own longstanding suspicion that the hidden project of Lumon is somehow literally keeping Kier's consciousness alive.

I'd previously wondered if each Eagan CEO actually *was* Kier, who was somehow transferring his mind into his descendants' bodies. That would mean that creepy Jame Egan, Helena's father, is the current vessel for Kier. And his comment about how "one day, you will sit with me at my revolving" would be all the creepier -- it would suggest that he was talking about the moment when Kier's consciousness would be transferred from him to her.

But the biggest problem I see with that theory is that Lumon having the technology for consciousness transfer as far back as 1939, when Kier died and his first successor took over, would stretch the bounds of plausibility, even within the universe of the show.

However, Kier being kept as a popsicle since '39, and the MDR teams somehow retrieving the data from his brain? Yeah, I like it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:18 PM on February 8 [3 favorites]

Artifice_Eternity
it occurred to me that this was a scene right out of "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe"

Same! As they continued walking through the woods and the ice was melting and then they got to the running stream, I thought the allusion was becoming more direct. (I guess it wasn't. But the imagery sure was suggestive.)

BTW, in response to another of your comments--I don't think they did use a lot of CGI and what-have-you in this episode. At least, they said in the podcast that they didn't. And stuff like the fog, in the Irving dream sequence, was natural and purely fortuitous.
posted by torticat at 10:12 PM on February 8 [1 favorite]

My theory about the twins is that they may be some kind of balloons. They move in such a weird, drifty way.

In real life they were actually look-alike actors (and "Shadow Mark" was the same actor lurking in the background in episode 1.)

I don't see why this isn't the obvious explanation in story too. Lumon hired some actors who looked like MDR people and told them what to do. Simple.

Of course, being Lumon, they had them act in the weirdest way possible...
posted by mmoncur at 10:22 PM on February 8 [4 favorites]

Artifice_Eternity
it occurred to me that this was a scene right out of "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe"

Torticat
Same! As they continued walking through the woods and the ice was melting and then they got to the running stream, I thought the allusion was becoming more direct. (I guess it wasn't. But the imagery sure was suggestive.)

And like in The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, one of the four is a secret traitor.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:55 PM on February 8 [15 favorites]

140 comments and no outrageous theories about the decomposing seal (that they probably shouldn't eat)?
posted by autopilot at 12:10 AM on February 9 [5 favorites]

They're definitely in Lumon-controlled space, either real or virtual. The give-away for me was the television - in the initial wide shot as Irv arrives clifftop the TV is entirely absent, appearing from thin air seconds later.
posted by coriolisdave at 1:23 AM on February 9

I don’t really care about if the space was inside the basement or not - that seems to have very little difference to the story told, given what we know at the minute. The reason that people are concerned that it’s a part of the severed floor is that the tv and other parts of the space, as represented in the story, don’t make sense. However, a lot of the severance setting doesn’t make sense - the old computers, the disco lighting, the 70s outfits - so I’m guessing this is some kind of deliberately chosen background colour to keep the viewer unsettled
posted by The River Ivel at 3:04 AM on February 9 [1 favorite]

But now my sense is that the flip happens because of some kind of signal or field pervading the space. So there's nothing special about the elevator -- it's just the means by which they enter the basement floor, where their chips are then activated by the ambient field.

This is supported by the birthing lodge scene in S1E5. It seems pretty clear that Gabby is switched from her outtie to her innie just before giving birth. I also seem to recall that outtie Gabby was none too happy about having yet another child. And in S1E6, Gabby has no memory of meeting Devon at the lodge---implying this is innie Gabby again.

The whole thing gives off a very 'Stepford Wives' vibe.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 6:11 AM on February 9 [1 favorite]

140 comments and no outrageous theories about the decomposing seal (that they probably shouldn't eat)?

No theories, except, Irving, who once worried someone needed a tetanus shot for a scratch now wants to eat a how-long-and-why-dead critter?
Maybe to show he didn't give any fcks anymore?

Also, that last gross closeup of the thing looked like a misshapen human head to me. This, plus the pus-eye story - Had Severance had such sheer gross-out stuff before?

Maybe that's the overall topic we are not addressing enough - not the change of scenery, but the change in tone of this episode. There was a roughness to everything.
posted by NorthernLite at 7:38 AM on February 9 [4 favorites]

140 comments and no outrageous theories about the decomposing seal (that they probably shouldn't eat)?

My guess is that this entire outing is intended as a sort of "team-breaking" experience, to try to undermine the solidarity that the MDR four have with each other. Lumon is deliberately doing as many things as they can to unsettle and tax the four of the them, and to make Lumon look feel strong and charitable ("I'm so hungry, maybe I'll debase myself and eat this thing" and then later "I can't believe I was stupid enough to almost eat this when all-powerful Lumon provides me with luxury meats.")

Specifically, I think their goal with the fourth appendix was to tell a story that would be ridiculous enough that most of the team would find it laughable, but that would actually appeal a little to Irving - basically, a "sexual temptation makes you weak," which could help him feel better about losing Burt while feeling disdainful of Mark/Helly (and if he ever found out about Dylan connecting with his outie's wife, then Dylan as well). The differing reactions would drive them apart - which kind of worked? But then I think they were setting up to bring Irving back into the fold, and it backfired spectacularly.
posted by nightcoast at 10:15 AM on February 9 [4 favorites]

Lumon hired some actors who looked like MDR people and told them what to do. Simple.

I don't think Lumon needs to hire any actors. For one, big security risk. For two, they have a lot of people that work for them that will do their bidding and then be safely stored away, Ms. Casey style.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:02 AM on February 9

When Milcheck called the dinner “luxury meats” I was reminded of how Seattle used to have a place , literally down the street from the zoo, where you could get a zebra burger.

But the Kory Haus was not exactly “luxurious”
posted by funkaspuck at 3:21 PM on February 9 [1 favorite]

I don't think Lumon needs to hire any actors. For one, big security risk. For two, they have a lot of people that work for them that will do their bidding and then be safely stored away, Ms. Casey style.

The guy who plays Mark's lookalike (credited as Shadow Mark) ALSO played the Man in Hallway in Episode 1.

I wish I could take credit for finding this -- it popped up in a YouTube analysis. So if it's deliberate, and pretty much everything in this show feels obsessively deliberate, why would a Mark lookalike be wandering around the severed floor and also appear in the ORTBO? The ORTBO appearances seem to be a hologram.
posted by mochapickle at 3:45 PM on February 9 [2 favorites]

Is the Glasgow block somehow related to the Glasgow Coma Scale?

That was my interpretation. The GCS was originated in a neurosugical unit, to evaluate patients' responsiveness after procedures. I would guess that as a switch in this context, it would enable The Board or whoever to test the post-severed responsiveness of both an innie and an outlet (I am losing an autocorrect battle here) in the same exam, say.
posted by Dashy at 5:34 PM on February 9 [1 favorite]

[...]but I've seen no evidence that Helena's presence has resulted in any outcome different than what would've happened if Helly had been in control.

One big thing we know would have been different is that Helly R. would have told the others her outie was an Eagan. We don't necessarily know why that might be something Lumen was so desperate to avoid -- what longer-term plans that information might now, moving forward, upend -- but it nonetheless provides a clear enough (even if provisional) answer for why Helena needed to be the one in there, after Mark made all of their attendance a requirement for him continuing at the job. (At least as far as we know for now, otherwise Lumen was planning to just keep him on board and leave the others laid off, though that doesn't necessarily preclude the Helena-as-Helen ruse from already being part of their plan anyway, eventually sending her back in even if Mark hadn't demanded it. We really don't know. My point here is just that they have provided us with at least one simple provisional answer already.)

[...]Milchick told them the waterfall was the tallest in the world, which is obviously false.

Have you seen any taller waterfalls! If you're going to spread blasphemies, you should at least bring the evidence to back them up. Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion.
posted by nobody at 5:59 PM on February 9 [6 favorites]

Another motivation for Helena's mole role is to find out what innie Irving was up to on the outside, since outie Irving seems more canny at covering up his activities than the others.
posted by nightcoast at 6:46 PM on February 9

found myself thinking, at the start of the episode, about how basically all of the main characters have some sort of secret they're keeping from the others: Mark is hiding his reintegration, Helena is hiding her duplicity, Dylan is hiding his family visits, and Irving is seemingly hiding his entire overtime contingency experience. Helena and Irving are seemingly basically taken off the table this episode, but we're still looking at Mark and Dylan hiding their secrets from the group. Very curious to see what the fallout of that winds up looking like.
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:06 PM on February 9 [5 favorites]

I think the waterfall comment had two purposes:

1. Milchick was trying to impress and awe the MDR team by valuing them enough to show them the full glory of Kier's lands
2. To serve as a signpost reminding us, the viewers, that Milchick lies, lies, lies.

The story Milchick reads about Dieter might be some sort of metaphor, but it feels more like a lie. Did Kier even have a brother? If Kier had a brother, is that really how he died? Or worse, did Kier murder Dieter and refuse to tell the truth about it, even in the delirium of his final days?

If Dieter died on the banks of the pond, was that also the very spot where Irving drowned Helena?
posted by mochapickle at 7:30 PM on February 9 [5 favorites]

> If Dieter died on the banks of the pond, was that also the very spot where Irving drowned Helena?

Wait, what if that dead seal was Dieter?
posted by Pronoiac at 8:27 PM on February 9

found myself thinking, at the start of the episode, about how basically all of the main characters have some sort of secret they're keeping from the others

I've been wondering if maybe Irv is (or was) Accidentally Reintegrating.

Season 1 established that reintegration was already a known thing (albeit one that was Officially Impossible). It's also implied that the Reintegration Doctor had been working at it for a bit, prior to going off the grid and actively reintegrating Scotty.

Add in I-Irv's paint dreams and O-Irv's paintings of an inside location, indicating bleed-through between identities, and.. I reckon it's plausible.
posted by coriolisdave at 9:14 PM on February 9 [1 favorite]

Perhaps we can answer the questions about the seal by asking metafilter should I eat it?
posted by autopilot at 12:56 AM on February 10 [6 favorites]

(Lumon paid the mods to delete the askmefi post)
posted by autopilot at 1:43 AM on February 10 [2 favorites]

Yeeessss! Do it, Seth!!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:45 AM on February 10 [3 favorites]

The other thing about the Seth reveal to the innies is how it breaks through the careful hierarchy Lumon enforces. Mr. Milchick, Ms. Cobel. Miss. Huang - they're all supervisors and bosses. Mark S., Helly R., Dylan G., Irving B, etc. they're all separate and beneath. Makes Irving's "Yeeesss! Do it, Seth!!" all that more in-world shocking and transgressive.

I love Irving's arc. Going from the stickler, ultimate rules follower and true believer to the guy who's thiiiiiss close to drowning an Egan.
posted by ssmith at 4:57 AM on February 10 [17 favorites]

I'm rewatching S1 in between S2 episodes and...whoa! Watching the video of Helena rejecting Helly's resignation in E4 and then threatening further punishment if Helly does cut 'her' fingers off. I was suddenly struck by the incredible self-hate Helena must carry around inside, which her innie has now become the object of. Now imagine consciously assuming the guise of that very object as she does in S2.

It does leave me to wonder if Helena made the choice to 'go innie' of her own free will (whatever that ultimately means in this show's universe). Was she compelled, and by whom? Her father? 'The Board'? Whomever it was, if it was someone else, obviously has enormous leverage over Helena and huge stakes in whatever the outcome of 'Cold Harbor' might be.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 5:35 AM on February 10 [3 favorites]

That's a good question. We have to remember that Helena and the others returning was "plan B". Plan A was giving Mark a new team and expecting him to get back to number-sorting as usual. So there might have been some pressure put on Helena to flip to the new plan so quickly.

This is another emphasis on how special they consider Mark. In the rewatch of season 1 in the scene where Irving is staring to doze off, the background is Dylan talking to Helly. Obviously our attention (and the camera) is focused on Irving as we see him start to slip, and the conversation seems to just be the droning talk that is the catalyst. But on the rewatch I caught more of what Dylan was saying:

Helly: But why don’t we always finish the files?
Dylan: ’Cause they only keep so long.

Dylan: You know, we finish, on average, one in five files before they expire. Which is better than it used to be before Mark’s freshman fluke.
posted by mikepop at 7:26 AM on February 10 [13 favorites]

Outie Irving finds himself in a icy forest, and turns around, surveying the area, to see a group of strangers with Mr. Milkshake

Oh, hello! How did the retreat...what the heck happened -- why does she...look like a drowned rat?
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:31 AM on February 10

But on the rewatch I caught more of what Dylan was saying:

Helly: But why don’t we always finish the files?
Dylan: ’Cause they only keep so long.

Dylan: You know, we finish, on average, one in five files before they expire. Which is better than it used to be before Mark’s freshman fluke.

I just recently saw this clip bringing up the volume of Helly and Dylan's conversation in this scene so they definitely have been laying some groundwork for this!
posted by sigmagalator at 9:23 AM on February 10 [11 favorites]

Combine that with the fact that Mark W mentions that his team never hit quota (over a good amount of time, we assume, due to his age/retirement status). Yet this is still the best person they can pull out of retirement (albeit on short notice) to put on the replacement team.
posted by mikepop at 12:39 PM on February 10 [2 favorites]

I also think now that Cobel/Selvig's interest in Mark is entirely professional. Melchick's story about the 'throuple' is just smokescreen. She minding his outtie closely, looking for ways his innie can be manipulated to keep focus on 'Cold Harbor' whatever that turns out to be. I would assume she's riffled through his house and belongings on more than one occasion for that purpose. And there's kind of weird twist to it, as I think about it, of having Ms. Casey (innie Gemma?) use objects taken from Mark and Gemma's outtie life together as part of his 'Wellness' sessions.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:09 PM on February 10

What does it tell us about what severance is for that the work product of MDR has a super low success rate? That’s (presumably) a lot of money to spend to keep failing at stuff.
posted by eirias at 4:40 PM on February 10

OK, I said above that Irving tips his hand at having outie-knowledge when he knew Milchick's first name, but in the threatened-drowning (baptism?) scene, Helena actually calls him Seth first, and Irving seems to pick up on this and uses it to taunt the two of them (as in, it's clear evidence that she's not Helly and has a personal relationship with Milchick.)

Absolutely agreed about Cobel, Insert Clever Name Here. And whatever that weird twist is seems to really affect her emotionally - I was rewatching the wellness sessions, and she seems to be captivated in some profound and positive way by Gemma/Mark's connection. Agreed that part of the strength of this show going forward will be if it pays off this mystery in some at least somewhat satifsying manner.
posted by nightcoast at 4:56 PM on February 10 [2 favorites]

I suspect Irvings paintings show that severance only effects the conscious mind, so information in the subconscious is available to innies and outties. Mostly images and feelings and intuition, but enough for a sleeping Irving to piece together that he's seen Helena before.
posted by WhackyparseThis at 9:12 PM on February 10 [5 favorites]

I do wonder about that a lot, and I have ever since the Helena reveal. I mean, this is a company town, and Lumon (as we've learned in S2) is a large multinational corporation, with senators in their pocket (well, at least the one), and secret dealings all over the place, but obviously enough of a public face where Helena being severed is worthy of a big presentation.

In S1, Mark almost hits Helena in the parking lot, in his car. She was just out there in the parking lot. Is this normal? Can she really 'hide in plain sight' with nobody outside recognizing her? That particular incident feels so weird to me, that I have to assume it was some kind of test. Either way, it just seems so weird.
posted by destructive cactus at 6:42 AM on February 11 [1 favorite]

Most people know about Fox News, and many of them have heard of Rupert Murdoch, but how many people know about Lachlan Murdoch's existence, much less be able to recognize him on sight? How about any of his siblings? Mark Zuckerberg is a household name, but Priscilla Chan? Not so much. Bill Gates is instantly recognizable, but Melinda Gates – despite her photo being published in the New York Times on more than one occasion – is probably still pretty visually anonymous (this may be different in the Seattle area).

I don't find it weird that Helena can walk around in public and drive her own car around; it just means that she's not one of the "famous" Eagans who's been presented to the wider world as one of the public faces of the family.
posted by skoosh at 8:34 AM on February 11 [9 favorites]

Indeed; her becoming Severed might have been her first high-profile company/family project and that reception the launch of a more public persona.
posted by mikepop at 10:55 AM on February 11 [5 favorites]

I think Natalie even referred to the Lumon event as her official debut.
posted by mochapickle at 11:30 AM on February 11 [4 favorites]

oh ricken DEFINITELY wrote the saga of kier’s twin. that shit had my hootin and hollerin it was such terrible prose. full of rickenisms
posted by dis_integration at 5:46 PM on February 11 [2 favorites]

I guess I’m the outlier in thinking Ricken didn’t write the book of Kier’s twin. I’m sure Lumon has their own terrible writers in-house for this sort of thing!
posted by mikepop at 7:35 PM on February 11 [8 favorites]

If Ricken is behind it, it's something that would take a ton of time because I can't imagine Ricken could just dash something like that off. And if it takes time, then it means Mark would have more time for reintegration, which means we possibly saw a reintegrated Mark pretending to be Mark S. throughout the work trip.

Dan Erickson has mentioned in an interview that blue means severed and red means outer world. On the night of the trip, the camera cuts quickly, sharply: Irving was surrounded by a sea of icy blue, and Helly's tent is molten orange. Was the warm color just for Helena, or for Mark, too?

They've done the blue/orange cuts before, with different characters. In S1, Dylan's at the waffle party and everything's dark and blue and... there's a bloodless, choreographed seduction. Meanwhile, Harmony is at home, freaking out about getting fired, and she's breaking everything, and the scene glows with flames.

Speaking of color, am I just imagining things or did they make Helena brunette for some of the scenes? I'm guessing it was to illustrate how Irving saw her as an entirely different person, a stranger, even. But my TV is also very old and I don't always trust the colors so I might be imagining.
posted by mochapickle at 7:58 PM on February 11

"I can't imagine Ricken could just dash something like that off"

Dan Erickson said this:

First off, I will say, writing Ricken's book is probably the most fun part of my whole job. I love sitting down and writing it. It’s like stream of consciousness because he doesn't think through his words, so why should I?

posted by simonw at 7:48 AM on February 12 [9 favorites]

omg that is amazing! ha!
posted by mochapickle at 8:29 AM on February 12

I re-watched this episode last night. One thing that struck me in retrospect after the first watch was the lack of animals in the forest (seal aside). How would the innies react to (live) animals? Would they "remember" them enough that it would be no big deal, or would it be more like Dylan reacting to the sky? There are some bird sounds and a couple of birds flit by in the background in a couple of scenes that go unnoticed. No squirrels or anything that I would think should be common here. Remarkably few animals but not a complete lack of them.

Surely inconsequential, but once I noticed it I couldn't stop seeing it so I'm writing it down here: at about 6:09 as they are moving towards the ORTBO setup the camera pans around and a large round rock. The rock has a large crack running down it. Two dots of snow combine with this crack to give the appearance of a smiling face. All the rocks have some degree of snow on them, but in a more natural way. These dots are more perfectly circular than falling snow would allow; it's more like someone stuck two snowballs onto the rock.

Anyway, this is the sort of nonsense that sticks in your brain when you do a late-night rewatch "to look for details you missed". Bring on the next episode please!
posted by mikepop at 8:42 AM on February 12 [3 favorites]

This episode left me cold (no pun intended) and I'm starting to bounce off this show. The actors are good and sell their characters compellingly, and the writing is decent when they're hitting the beats of a tighter plot, but a lot of the writing here is not good imo. The whole Kier/Lumon worldbuilding is very campy, which of course seems intentional to an extent, but it's not clear to what extent exactly, and tonally it doesn't really work for me grafted onto other aspects of the show.
posted by dusty potato at 9:02 AM on February 12 [3 favorites]

My current working theory is that Kier and Dieter were part of the same severed mind, maybe through some psychological break that served as the inspiration for the severance procedure, and that Kier gained full control and essentially killed the Dieter half.

And I expect that the Lumon party line that 'reintegration is impossible' stems from Kier's unwillingness to accept responsibility for Dieter's actions, having in some sense killed and buried Dieter.

Another theory: the severed floor, with the perpetuity wing, the lack of modern tech, and the employees with substantial amounts of amnesia, was built to serve as Kier's home after resurrection. Perhaps out of a concern that "if the founding fathers were alive today" they'd freak out so they scoured his writings, perhaps because they already tried once and he rejected reality so thoroughly Dieter took over or something and he burned down an orphanage.
posted by pwnguin at 9:18 AM on February 12

No squirrels or anything that I would think should be common here. Remarkably few animals but not a complete lack of them.

That's about right for a forest in the dead of winter, with four uncamouflaged humans tromping around. Squirrels that are unused to humans are pretty skittish, and they are only active for a few hours per day in the winter in forests.
posted by jedicus at 10:24 AM on February 12 [5 favorites]

I also rewatched last night; some additional thoughts:

The "tallest waterfall" being an obvious lie that the innies are oblivious to, yes yes; but also the gulf between Milchick's pastoral description of "meadows, thickets, brambles and brooks" and the icy, rocky reality of the landscape.

One of my recurring thoughts is how essentially child-like the innies are -- they have context but not experience, they're basically unformed -- and how carefully Lumon cultivates and maintains that child-like state. That's in full effect here: Dylan being comically astonished by being out-fucking-side, Irving whining that "we're starving, Mr. Milchick"; the school AV trolley; a camp-out with marshmallows; a bedtime story; holding up the book so they can see the illustrations!

And if you view the innies as child-like: that puts outie-Helena sleeping with innie-Mark in an uncomfortable light. Do innies have the emotional maturity to consent to sex?

Irving is suspicious of both Milchick ("that mountebank") and Helly right from the start, and I'm kind of torn between thinking that maybe he has some form of re-integration occurring versus him being simply a little more self-aware of his severed state than the others, and a lot more primed to be suspicious by recent experience: "you smug motherfucker" was what, a week or so ago in innie-time?

Notice that it's Irving that spots the obvious allusion of "Scissor Cave".

I think the precise moment that Irving is sure that Helly is an outie is the giggling at the fireside, and specifically her phrasing "the dumbest thing I ever heard". That's a profoundly non-innie thing to say, I think: innies don't have an "ever" of life experience to draw from, they're may-flies. Helly woke up on the table maybe a month or so in innie-time: how many dumb things has she ever heard? And Irving definitely clocks this: there's a brief cut to a really pointed look from him.

Milchick's "now" at the ending is quite ambiguous: what is about to happen here? The most obvious is that innie Irv is turned off, but it doesn't feel like switching to outie Irv would be a good thing for Lumon here. And the "as if you never existed" phrasing suggests something more: are they going to erase the other innies' memories of Irv? "Any and all professional interactions and personal relations."

I don't think this is the last we see of Irving: the show's been very pointedly hinting that outie Irv is up to something. But boy, I will miss innie Irv.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:45 AM on February 12 [7 favorites]

And notice also that Helly/Helena gets the giggles because the Dieter story is obviously absurd; Mark and Dylan join in because ha-ha-wanking-is-funny.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:47 AM on February 12 [2 favorites]

I've been assuming there's a third mode between Outie and Innie; kind of a rudimentary bootloader state where they might blankly obey instructions like "put these clothes on" and "go stand on the ice."
posted by MarchHare at 9:38 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

On rewatch, Milkshake is doing a Max Headroom thing in the video.

When they are walking and Irv is reading aloud from the book, the voice over gets a weird effect as if someone else is reading along. Reminds me of the gravely "yes" from the board's speaker box.
posted by autopilot at 1:04 PM on February 13

Also, "marshmallows are for ~~closers~~ team players"
posted by autopilot at 1:20 PM on February 13 [1 favorite]

The occasional slight glitching of the ORTBO video was more giving me slight Dharma Initiative vibes, although I don't think there's any direct allusion happening; more that both Severance and Lost are are drawing from the same "corporate orientation film is slightly creepy" well to set an off-kilter atmosphere.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:49 PM on February 13 [1 favorite]

I noticed the weird voice that was playing over the Irv’s reading the book. On rewatch it sounded like Animatronic Keir’s voice from the Perpetuity Wing.
posted by umber vowel at 2:00 PM on February 13 [4 favorites]

I also watched again and noticed a couple things: the elevator *ding* right when Irving wakes up on the ice; and the fact that when they meet Milchick at Woe's Hollow on the "first day", it's light out, but by the time they get to the campground it's dark. There's a shot of the sun going down very rapidly, much more rapidly than in real time, and while I know that's often a visual device to indicate the passage of time, Woe's Hollow is simply not that far from their camp. When Irving is drowning Helena, Mark and Milchick hear the shouting nearby and race to Woe's hollow in less than a minute. So we know that Woe's Hollow is very close by the campsite, and the sun was up in the sky (not right at the horizon) when they first saw the falls the previous day but was down by the time they hiked the minute or two so to camp. I think it is extremely unlikely that this adventure happened in the real outside.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:09 PM on February 13 [1 favorite]

Okay, I am now fully on team Appendix IV Was Written By Ricken -- thanks to this analysis video demonstrating how closely the language matches The You You Are:

"He’ll be shipped off to the gulag like an errant pauper.”
"...that a grim and intrusive resentment — of my parents, my lineage, and even myself — began to take hold.”
“...even coming from my own oafish gullet...”

Ricken is so weird. This show is so weird. Can't wait for the next thread!
posted by mochapickle at 4:47 PM on February 13 [5 favorites]

For anyone who's wondering, the World's Tallest Waterfall, aka "Woe's Hollow" is Awosting Falls, in Minnewaska State Park (about 90 mi. north of NYC). Very easy walk to get there! Other shots in this episode were at lake and cliffs around the Mohonk Mountain House
posted by Dashy at 10:46 AM on February 16 [2 favorites]

This episode began with a bunch of the details that had me saying, "Wait, what about...Why wouldn't they...?" etc.

But by the end of the episode I was 100% invested. Earlier episodes have had similar niggling issues that I utterly didn't care about by the end.

That's good writing and fantastic acting. MUCH more important than crossing every dot and eyeing every tea. I'm willing to cut this show some slack when it keeps delivering the goods like this.
posted by straight at 3:12 PM on March 2 [2 favorites]

I don't see how this isn't just the end of the working team. They just watched Irving essentially die, they learned that the company let a mole in among them, and Mark was basically raped by that mole. They can't just go back to the office after this unless it's under explicit threat of harm

I think it depends on how much Milchick's threat was a real one - how much they can really delete Irving's presence from everyone's memories. How much memory can they really erase over all? Like they probably don't *normally* do it, but when they *have* to, how much can they do? What will the edited memories look like?

it undermines Helena’s seeming stubborn belief in the ideals of severance

I don't think we have any evidence she had a belief in the ideals of severance, so much as that we had a belief that she was trying to *present* the ideals of severance publicly. We see some bad dynamics between her and her father - it seems likely that this is something she is trying to do for her family, rather than something she truly believes in.

My read was that Irving was using it a taunting emphasis that of course an Eagan mole would use the familiar “Seth” instead of “Mr.Milchick”.

Yes, but: I actually think that there's something going on between Irving and Milchick. Count me on team 'I think Irving may have worked as an unsevered before and that Milchick and he knew each other'. Milchick just sounded a *touch* too sincere when he said (paraphrased) "I think that he would call me a friend" to Irving's Outtie about his Innie, along with Irving's focus on the severed and his keeping of the naval stuff of his father, along with the tension in the face off with Milchick... I know this may sound insane, but I feel like Irving is much more important than he knows and Milchick knows it too.
posted by FutureExpatCorb at 1:14 PM on March 8

How much memory can they really erase over all?

Along with the OTC and the Glasgow Block, there's a contingency called Clean Slate, so...
posted by Grangousier at 2:45 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]

Mark's "freshman fluke" in refining makes me wonder if grief has a positive impact on the ability to refine.
posted by cocoagirl at 7:01 AM on March 25

Argh, when I said I didn't want them to do a Fringe, that's it. (There, the lead guy unknowingly slept with an alt universe version of his real deal.)

I've been catching up on these threads as I've caught up with the show, and I just wanted to mention that I misread this comment and spent the last week or so thinking that the lead guy from Fringe unknowingly slept with an alt universe version of his real dad.
posted by amarynth at 8:29 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]

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Severance: Woe's Hollow
February 6, 2025 7:20 PM - Season 2, Episode 4 - Subscribe

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Severance: Woe's Hollow
February 6, 2025 7:20 PM - Season 2, Episode 4 - Subscribe