Severance: Trojan's Horse
February 13, 2025 8:26 PM - Season 2, Episode 5 - Subscribe
Tensions emerge after the team suffers a loss.
Well, if they *don't* know where they're going and what the end will be, they sure as hell took an enormous leap into the unknown with this episode.
(They know where they're going and what the end will be)
Glad to have confirmation that Milchick and Natalie were having a non-conversation conversation about race in the last episode that became a semi-conversation conversation in this one.
What we see of Milchick's performance review is nightmarishly harrowing.
Re: Irving's "Hang in there!" from the end of the last episode - I thought he was reminding Dylan that he could activate Innie!Irving at any time - I didn't think he was referring specifically to the poster. Anyone get a chance to read the note on the back of the drawing of the Export Hall?
And who the hell was the creepy... dentist? person whistling The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald? (Obviously not severed, from that bit of evidence)
Mark and Helly and Mark and Helena is so fucked up.
The "funeral" was Severance-typical levels of hilarious and off-putting.
Ricken is the wooooooooooooooorst.
On preview:
NorthernLite: Mr Drummond referred to Jame as father.
I noticed that - and they referred to "him" being at 81%, not "it" (as in Cold Harbor). More fuel for the fire that Cold Harbor is somehow keeping Kier alive/making Kier live again.
I wondered when those little vials of yellowish ick from the credits would come into play - looks like it's part of the maintenance protocol for re-integration.
Irving and Burt (and Fields) are going to have dinner!!
posted by tzikeh at 8:39 PM on February 13 [2 favorites]
(They know where they're going and what the end will be)
Glad to have confirmation that Milchick and Natalie were having a non-conversation conversation about race in the last episode that became a semi-conversation conversation in this one.
What we see of Milchick's performance review is nightmarishly harrowing.
Re: Irving's "Hang in there!" from the end of the last episode - I thought he was reminding Dylan that he could activate Innie!Irving at any time - I didn't think he was referring specifically to the poster. Anyone get a chance to read the note on the back of the drawing of the Export Hall?
And who the hell was the creepy... dentist? person whistling The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald? (Obviously not severed, from that bit of evidence)
Mark and Helly and Mark and Helena is so fucked up.
The "funeral" was Severance-typical levels of hilarious and off-putting.
Ricken is the wooooooooooooooorst.
On preview:
NorthernLite: Mr Drummond referred to Jame as father.
I noticed that - and they referred to "him" being at 81%, not "it" (as in Cold Harbor). More fuel for the fire that Cold Harbor is somehow keeping Kier alive/making Kier live again.
I wondered when those little vials of yellowish ick from the credits would come into play - looks like it's part of the maintenance protocol for re-integration.
Irving and Burt (and Fields) are going to have dinner!!
posted by tzikeh at 8:39 PM on February 13 [2 favorites]
Starting an episode with a character humming The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald???? That songs terrifies me to this day.
Ben Stiller, you will pay for your crimes.
Anyone get a chance to read the note on the back of the drawing of the Export Hall?
It was directions on how to find the Export Hall.
We learned quite a bit about Milchick through the unsaid portions of his conversations in this episode. Given the obvious view of literally everyone around him that innies are chattel, it's clear that all the "reforms" and performances of change are entirely his idea. The Keanu-narrated animated video, the changes to the break room, the hall passes. No one in charge of Lumon wants any of that. He thinks Lumon wants him to motivate MDR to finish their files. What they actually want is for him to be a driver who oversees the slaves on their plantation. He's going to turn on Lumon.
The acting in this episode was just otherworldly. It demanded subtlety from the entire cast and which one of them made the most of their screen time. Britt Lower and Zack Cherry's faces, Walken in the car, Adam Scott barely holding back a total breakdown at the end of the episode. Magnificent work.
In closing, all hail Queen Devon.
posted by dry white toast at 8:59 PM on February 13 [16 favorites]
Ben Stiller, you will pay for your crimes.
Anyone get a chance to read the note on the back of the drawing of the Export Hall?
It was directions on how to find the Export Hall.
We learned quite a bit about Milchick through the unsaid portions of his conversations in this episode. Given the obvious view of literally everyone around him that innies are chattel, it's clear that all the "reforms" and performances of change are entirely his idea. The Keanu-narrated animated video, the changes to the break room, the hall passes. No one in charge of Lumon wants any of that. He thinks Lumon wants him to motivate MDR to finish their files. What they actually want is for him to be a driver who oversees the slaves on their plantation. He's going to turn on Lumon.
The acting in this episode was just otherworldly. It demanded subtlety from the entire cast and which one of them made the most of their screen time. Britt Lower and Zack Cherry's faces, Walken in the car, Adam Scott barely holding back a total breakdown at the end of the episode. Magnificent work.
In closing, all hail Queen Devon.
posted by dry white toast at 8:59 PM on February 13 [16 favorites]
"Calamitous ORTBO" is my new band name.
posted by HillbillyInBC at 9:04 PM on February 13 [21 favorites]
posted by HillbillyInBC at 9:04 PM on February 13 [21 favorites]
dry white toast: It was directions on how to find the Export Hall.
Thanks! I'll have to rewatch on the laptop so I can see it up close.
[Milchick's] going to turn on Lumon.
I certainly hope so.
The acting in this episode was just otherworldly.
Agreed. It's easy to get lost in the mystery and concept of the show and give the actors short shrift. Adam Scott is a much better actor than I gave him credit for before this show, and he's even better this season than last.
In closing, all hail Queen Devon.
If Ricken is the worst, it only makes sense that Devon is the best.
(Anyone taking bets on who Irving is talking to when he goes to that pay phone?)
posted by tzikeh at 9:06 PM on February 13 [1 favorite]
Thanks! I'll have to rewatch on the laptop so I can see it up close.
[Milchick's] going to turn on Lumon.
I certainly hope so.
The acting in this episode was just otherworldly.
Agreed. It's easy to get lost in the mystery and concept of the show and give the actors short shrift. Adam Scott is a much better actor than I gave him credit for before this show, and he's even better this season than last.
In closing, all hail Queen Devon.
If Ricken is the worst, it only makes sense that Devon is the best.
(Anyone taking bets on who Irving is talking to when he goes to that pay phone?)
posted by tzikeh at 9:06 PM on February 13 [1 favorite]
The note was entirely "starting from O&D, turn left, turn left..." and then like 30 more turns.
posted by dry white toast at 9:12 PM on February 13 [2 favorites]
posted by dry white toast at 9:12 PM on February 13 [2 favorites]
The note was entirely "starting from O&D, turn left, turn left..." and then like 30 more turns.
I'd buy the Severed floors at Lumon as some weird version of The House from House of Leaves, sure
posted by tzikeh at 9:16 PM on February 13 [7 favorites]
I'd buy the Severed floors at Lumon as some weird version of The House from House of Leaves, sure
posted by tzikeh at 9:16 PM on February 13 [7 favorites]
Freeze-framing Milchick flipping through his report:
Along with “Calamitous ORTBO” and “Ineffective Kindness Reforms” another contention listed is “The Theft of Card 7197-G”. Not sure how they can pin that one on him.
The report has a word cloud of his oversized word usage, but I could only make out the words “solace” and “supplant”.
Mark moved Cold Harbor from 81% to 85%. Assuming he can get an even 5% on a non-funeral day, he could finish the file in just three more work days. It’s implied this episode is Monday so in theory he could wrap it up before the next weekend.
posted by mikepop at 9:42 PM on February 13 [2 favorites]
Along with “Calamitous ORTBO” and “Ineffective Kindness Reforms” another contention listed is “The Theft of Card 7197-G”. Not sure how they can pin that one on him.
The report has a word cloud of his oversized word usage, but I could only make out the words “solace” and “supplant”.
Mark moved Cold Harbor from 81% to 85%. Assuming he can get an even 5% on a non-funeral day, he could finish the file in just three more work days. It’s implied this episode is Monday so in theory he could wrap it up before the next weekend.
posted by mikepop at 9:42 PM on February 13 [2 favorites]
mikepop: “The Theft of Card 7197-G”. Not sure how they can pin that one on him.
Wasn't that why he used the OTC -- to find out from Dylan where he hid the card? One could argue that was the inciting event that set off all of the rebellion in MDR.
posted by tzikeh at 10:00 PM on February 13 [6 favorites]
Wasn't that why he used the OTC -- to find out from Dylan where he hid the card? One could argue that was the inciting event that set off all of the rebellion in MDR.
posted by tzikeh at 10:00 PM on February 13 [6 favorites]
I'm adding "carving realistic watermelon head portraits on an hour's notice" to my extensive list of Milchick's talents. Because he definitely carved that watermelon.
posted by simonw at 10:02 PM on February 13 [5 favorites]
posted by simonw at 10:02 PM on February 13 [5 favorites]
"This review can take anywhere from two to six hours, depending on the number of atonements and approbations required."
That whole scene is nightmare fuel. Though I did like the design of "The Principal Achievements and Failures of Seth Milchick".
posted by Gary at 10:30 PM on February 13 [8 favorites]
That whole scene is nightmare fuel. Though I did like the design of "The Principal Achievements and Failures of Seth Milchick".
posted by Gary at 10:30 PM on February 13 [8 favorites]
I liked the combination:
* uses too many big words
* calamitous ORTBO
Some quotes I liked:
* obligement session
* He put the 'dick' in 'contradiction'
* the theremin works best in moderation
posted by Pronoiac at 11:17 PM on February 13 [5 favorites]
* uses too many big words
* calamitous ORTBO
Some quotes I liked:
* obligement session
* He put the 'dick' in 'contradiction'
* the theremin works best in moderation
posted by Pronoiac at 11:17 PM on February 13 [5 favorites]
Interesting that real HellyR's initial trip to Milchiks' office through the hallways is in shakey-cam.
Mark: "I don't know who you are..."
- he doesn't know who he is either.
But I cannot believe Mark's "lets forget about it" bit. WTF?
Also - writer's intent - that severed still "know" about funerals. Like, something more "primitive" than the state of Wyoming. Like, hominids have done funerals since forever and the writers are intending that it's brain-stem level stuff.
Burt's watermelon head is pretty impressive. But symbolically ugh. Also, eating of the dead has lots of history ranging from what could be a show of respect to what is downright vengeance cannibalism.
So, Mark S is a mythic "tech" Unicorn-with-a-capital-fing-U that they need to keep around that they let him get away with all of his intransigences.
posted by porpoise at 11:36 PM on February 13 [2 favorites]
Mark: "I don't know who you are..."
- he doesn't know who he is either.
But I cannot believe Mark's "lets forget about it" bit. WTF?
Also - writer's intent - that severed still "know" about funerals. Like, something more "primitive" than the state of Wyoming. Like, hominids have done funerals since forever and the writers are intending that it's brain-stem level stuff.
Burt's watermelon head is pretty impressive. But symbolically ugh. Also, eating of the dead has lots of history ranging from what could be a show of respect to what is downright vengeance cannibalism.
So, Mark S is a mythic "tech" Unicorn-with-a-capital-fing-U that they need to keep around that they let him get away with all of his intransigences.
posted by porpoise at 11:36 PM on February 13 [2 favorites]
WHY is the episode called "Trojan's Horse"? Instead of Trojan Horse? Such a weird mistake, if it is wasn't for some reason intentional.
posted by torticat at 11:42 PM on February 13
posted by torticat at 11:42 PM on February 13
Ricken justifies his selling out by saying his book will be a "Trojan's Horse".
posted by Gary at 11:52 PM on February 13 [11 favorites]
posted by Gary at 11:52 PM on February 13 [11 favorites]
Sorry, yeah I understand that. And Helena was sort of a trojan horse too, etc.
What I meant was, no one says "Trojan's horse"; that doesn't even make sense. The original horse didn't belong to one Trojan! It's called the Trojan horse because it was rolled into Troy, it was a trick on the whole city.
posted by torticat at 12:23 AM on February 14
What I meant was, no one says "Trojan's horse"; that doesn't even make sense. The original horse didn't belong to one Trojan! It's called the Trojan horse because it was rolled into Troy, it was a trick on the whole city.
posted by torticat at 12:23 AM on February 14
Yes, and yet Ricken, PhD, doesn't get that. Because he is a walking talking punchline.
posted by pwnguin at 12:26 AM on February 14 [20 favorites]
posted by pwnguin at 12:26 AM on February 14 [20 favorites]
Not to belabor a trivial detail (i.e. beat a dead horse), but it's the title of the episode, not just a quote from Ricken.
I'm only curious because this show is SO careful with detail, and the writing is SO good, it's just a very strange (and dumb) mistake. I wondered if it was intentional, but I can't think of a reason it would have been.
posted by torticat at 12:37 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
I'm only curious because this show is SO careful with detail, and the writing is SO good, it's just a very strange (and dumb) mistake. I wondered if it was intentional, but I can't think of a reason it would have been.
posted by torticat at 12:37 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
Yes, it's intentional: the title of the episode is a deliberate call out to Ricken's dumbness. But if you want it to connect deeper, Trojan Horses are about sneaking something inside enemy lines. Maybe even opening some gates? Some examples in the show / episode.
- Ricken's book(s) were smuggled into the severed floor
- Helena smuggled herself into the severed floor
- Mark's outie was active on the severed floor
- Milcheck's behavior seems intended to reform Kierism from the inside
If Ricken is the worst, it only makes sense that Devon is the best.
Honestly, you have to wonder why Devon is with Ricken. He's dumb, even when in private with her. His following seems small and unlikely to succeed, like a hamburger prattling on about hamburger sauces. And even if he does succeed, the best case scenario seems to be one cult replacing another. I'm forced to conclude that his books don't actually sell, and he is very likely born into the only local wealthy family: the Eagans.
In which case, that makes Devon -- whose two life goals seem to be her brother's welfare and the end of severence -- pairing with Ricken a sort of... Trojan horse.
posted by pwnguin at 1:09 AM on February 14 [8 favorites]
- Ricken's book(s) were smuggled into the severed floor
- Helena smuggled herself into the severed floor
- Mark's outie was active on the severed floor
- Milcheck's behavior seems intended to reform Kierism from the inside
If Ricken is the worst, it only makes sense that Devon is the best.
Honestly, you have to wonder why Devon is with Ricken. He's dumb, even when in private with her. His following seems small and unlikely to succeed, like a hamburger prattling on about hamburger sauces. And even if he does succeed, the best case scenario seems to be one cult replacing another. I'm forced to conclude that his books don't actually sell, and he is very likely born into the only local wealthy family: the Eagans.
In which case, that makes Devon -- whose two life goals seem to be her brother's welfare and the end of severence -- pairing with Ricken a sort of... Trojan horse.
posted by pwnguin at 1:09 AM on February 14 [8 favorites]
The only reason I can think of for titling the episode with the mistake is either that (a) it's funny or (b) it fits better with "Woe's Hollow". It's the aftermath of "Woe's Hollow" so the this one is "Trojan's Horse". The same way that "Hello, Ms. Cobel" and "Goodbye, Ms. Selvig" are a matching pair. But I'm leaning towards it just being a funny line.
posted by Gary at 1:21 AM on February 14 [4 favorites]
posted by Gary at 1:21 AM on February 14 [4 favorites]
But if you want it to connect deeper
Given "Trojan's Horse," could the episode title be a reference to that this is all just a wrapper (the horse) and that the surprise (trojans - the MDR group?) is yet to come?
posted by porpoise at 1:46 AM on February 14
Given "Trojan's Horse," could the episode title be a reference to that this is all just a wrapper (the horse) and that the surprise (trojans - the MDR group?) is yet to come?
posted by porpoise at 1:46 AM on February 14
His following seems small and unlikely to succeed, like a hamburger prattling on about hamburger sauces.A hamburger that could talk would be a lot more interesting than Ricken's hangers-on.
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 2:22 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
I found this episode really satisfying because it clarified a lot of small things that felt like annoying loose ends after the last episode:
- Why did we go from an episode in which Mark chooses reintegration to one in which he is obviously his innie? Because reintegration is not a one-and-done thing. It was amazing to see innie Mark start to exhibit some of the assholish disaffectedness of outie Mark — but just a bit. It also made me realize that innie Mark does not know why weird stuff is happening to his mind — just as outie Mark alone made the decision to sever, outie Mark forced reintegration and its risks on innie Mark.
- Am I sure that I could tell real Helly from Helena? Oh. Yeah. There she is. Crystal clear in this episode. As with Mark, loved the acting. She is going to feel so violated when she learns Mark slept with her outie, even though he’s the one who was deceived and he feels violated too — ugh. Reminds me that sexual assault was an integral part of chattel slavery.
- What happened at the end of Irving’s OTC? More or less the denouement that we could have inferred after S2E2: he comes to while banging on the door, doesn’t recognize Burt, and heads home but is followed. I rejoiced at the ham date even though part of me is still very unsure that Burt is on the up-and-up. I want this to be wholesome and not sinister, at least, as wholesome as an extramarital work affair can be. But that car-lurking doesn’t feel right.
- Why does Dylan feel barely there? He was back to true form in this episode; Milchick’s clearly still got a hold over him, but not enough of one to overcome his loyalty to his friend. If he can’t trust Helly and Mark isn’t a good partner in crime right now, I wonder if we will see him seeking out Felicia or someone else from O&D — worth noting that the directions to the exports elevator start there.
- I saw a lot of discourse about the excruciating “inclusively recanonicalized paintings” scene, and thought the scene spoke for itself, but to see it brought into text here… yeah, they have to be going somewhere with Milchick. I also hadn’t realized that his “new quarter, fresh start” stuff wasn’t entirely cynical, and wasn’t cooked up in a boardroom — he really was trying to make it better, in an extremely limited way, so he could feel better about participating in Lumon’s evil, I imagine.
posted by eirias at 3:49 AM on February 14 [10 favorites]
- Why did we go from an episode in which Mark chooses reintegration to one in which he is obviously his innie? Because reintegration is not a one-and-done thing. It was amazing to see innie Mark start to exhibit some of the assholish disaffectedness of outie Mark — but just a bit. It also made me realize that innie Mark does not know why weird stuff is happening to his mind — just as outie Mark alone made the decision to sever, outie Mark forced reintegration and its risks on innie Mark.
- Am I sure that I could tell real Helly from Helena? Oh. Yeah. There she is. Crystal clear in this episode. As with Mark, loved the acting. She is going to feel so violated when she learns Mark slept with her outie, even though he’s the one who was deceived and he feels violated too — ugh. Reminds me that sexual assault was an integral part of chattel slavery.
- What happened at the end of Irving’s OTC? More or less the denouement that we could have inferred after S2E2: he comes to while banging on the door, doesn’t recognize Burt, and heads home but is followed. I rejoiced at the ham date even though part of me is still very unsure that Burt is on the up-and-up. I want this to be wholesome and not sinister, at least, as wholesome as an extramarital work affair can be. But that car-lurking doesn’t feel right.
- Why does Dylan feel barely there? He was back to true form in this episode; Milchick’s clearly still got a hold over him, but not enough of one to overcome his loyalty to his friend. If he can’t trust Helly and Mark isn’t a good partner in crime right now, I wonder if we will see him seeking out Felicia or someone else from O&D — worth noting that the directions to the exports elevator start there.
- I saw a lot of discourse about the excruciating “inclusively recanonicalized paintings” scene, and thought the scene spoke for itself, but to see it brought into text here… yeah, they have to be going somewhere with Milchick. I also hadn’t realized that his “new quarter, fresh start” stuff wasn’t entirely cynical, and wasn’t cooked up in a boardroom — he really was trying to make it better, in an extremely limited way, so he could feel better about participating in Lumon’s evil, I imagine.
posted by eirias at 3:49 AM on February 14 [10 favorites]
but why did they spell it “Trojan’s”
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:32 AM on February 14
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:32 AM on February 14
Wasn't that why he used the OTC -- to find out from Dylan where he hid the card? One could argue that was the inciting event that set off all of the rebellion in MDR.
That makes sense; I was incorrectly thinking about the stolen security office access card, not the O&D card.
posted by mikepop at 5:32 AM on February 14
That makes sense; I was incorrectly thinking about the stolen security office access card, not the O&D card.
posted by mikepop at 5:32 AM on February 14
Little note about the melon head at the funeral: we see Dylan eating Irving’s left ear. Is this a Van Gogh reference, maybe?
posted by eirias at 6:16 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
posted by eirias at 6:16 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
My Q from the epsiode: What was the deal with the animated Irving at the funeral that was at the end of a table with those two hand impression things which previously lived in the Break Room and were used when Helly was reciting her apology? Like, pixel Irving was just jigging away on that screen, and the hand things were right there, and nobody even looked at it. I will be very distressed if that is never seen again, it is a real Chekhov's Animated GIF.
Mildly annoyed by the cold open with no follow-up.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:36 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
Mildly annoyed by the cold open with no follow-up.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:36 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
Quite the swing from Milchick telling Irving he will be completely forgotten, then rendering his likeness in animated sprite and melon form. Not to mention the commemorative Irving-face coffee cups.
So we don't see how the ORTBO is presented to MDR, but we do learn it happened over a weekend and that it had physicality since they had to explain to Mark why he got wet (Mark's phone call with Devon).
posted by mikepop at 7:00 AM on February 14 [5 favorites]
So we don't see how the ORTBO is presented to MDR, but we do learn it happened over a weekend and that it had physicality since they had to explain to Mark why he got wet (Mark's phone call with Devon).
posted by mikepop at 7:00 AM on February 14 [5 favorites]
I can't tell if people are joking about being confused about the episode title or not, at this point.
Anyhow, as eirias said, this episode helped tidy up many of my questions/concerns about last week's. I still think there was a bit of the creators' "we wanted to have this imagery; internal consistency be damned" to last week, but this mostly resolved things.
I was really excited to see Irving and Burt talk in the outside world - they're different people than their innies, but they weren't exactly hostile with each other. It was an interesting conversation and it also mirrored Mark and Helly's conversation elsewhere - obviously, everyone knows an innie and an outie are different people, but vibes are vibes - you can't help but have doubts and attribute the actions of one to the other, as Mark and Fields are probably feeling. This is something worth hashing out, but I can't be sure any of them will come to a good resolution about it.
posted by destructive cactus at 7:23 AM on February 14 [4 favorites]
Anyhow, as eirias said, this episode helped tidy up many of my questions/concerns about last week's. I still think there was a bit of the creators' "we wanted to have this imagery; internal consistency be damned" to last week, but this mostly resolved things.
I was really excited to see Irving and Burt talk in the outside world - they're different people than their innies, but they weren't exactly hostile with each other. It was an interesting conversation and it also mirrored Mark and Helly's conversation elsewhere - obviously, everyone knows an innie and an outie are different people, but vibes are vibes - you can't help but have doubts and attribute the actions of one to the other, as Mark and Fields are probably feeling. This is something worth hashing out, but I can't be sure any of them will come to a good resolution about it.
posted by destructive cactus at 7:23 AM on February 14 [4 favorites]
(Wants to make a dumb joke about wishing Helena and Mark had Trojans with them.
But then I get icked out again about her and iMark.)
More satire of RL workplaces: (After a contentious meeting): "That went well."
Long picture questions:
The show earlier revealed to us that the company had Helena severed as a PR stunt, the results of which were scheduled to be shown off at the gala - before Mark finished his mysterious and important work.
Again, why was Helena's newbie innie sent to such a crucial, delicate work group? If for publicity, why not wait to announce it when Cold Harbor was completed? Or did Helena want to quit the innie biz asap?
The irony is, Helena's innie was the catalyst for the innie revolt. Yet NOW the company thinks she's so important to Mark (emotionally?) that they first sent in Helena to be there (as well as spy) and now forced Helena to let loose cannon Helly come back.
posted by NorthernLite at 8:50 AM on February 14 [3 favorites]
But then I get icked out again about her and iMark.)
More satire of RL workplaces: (After a contentious meeting): "That went well."
Long picture questions:
The show earlier revealed to us that the company had Helena severed as a PR stunt, the results of which were scheduled to be shown off at the gala - before Mark finished his mysterious and important work.
Again, why was Helena's newbie innie sent to such a crucial, delicate work group? If for publicity, why not wait to announce it when Cold Harbor was completed? Or did Helena want to quit the innie biz asap?
The irony is, Helena's innie was the catalyst for the innie revolt. Yet NOW the company thinks she's so important to Mark (emotionally?) that they first sent in Helena to be there (as well as spy) and now forced Helena to let loose cannon Helly come back.
posted by NorthernLite at 8:50 AM on February 14 [3 favorites]
Another thought on Edmund Fitzgerald, DDS -- is it possible he's altering Gemma's dentition so that her dental records won't match the ones from when she was alive?
Or is he doing something to some other body for the whole Kier storyline.
Why would they hide his face? Options are a) he's someone we already know or b) the actor is a big-name star they want to reveal or c) I don't know....
And of all the songs they could choose, why that one in particular? I can't imagine sunken ships or the men lost with them figure directly into Severance's story, but then who knows.
posted by tzikeh at 9:35 AM on February 14 [3 favorites]
Or is he doing something to some other body for the whole Kier storyline.
Why would they hide his face? Options are a) he's someone we already know or b) the actor is a big-name star they want to reveal or c) I don't know....
And of all the songs they could choose, why that one in particular? I can't imagine sunken ships or the men lost with them figure directly into Severance's story, but then who knows.
posted by tzikeh at 9:35 AM on February 14 [3 favorites]
What happened to the office of MDR in this issue, I can only classify as "a goddamn spatial r***"
posted by uphc at 9:44 AM on February 14
posted by uphc at 9:44 AM on February 14
And who the hell was the creepy... dentist? person whistling The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald?
I mentioned this in the first season thread, but: there's a history of twilight sedation in dentistry that is an obvious precursor to severance. Going back further, Kier's factories were producing ether, and Lumon's still apparently in the pharmacy business. Not sure why they keep dentistry tools in the severed floor O&D, but if the elevator does go to hell, then "eternal visit to the dentist's office" seems thematic.
Last episode mentioned a character named Dieter, but diethyl ether, the chemical name for what is commonly known as "ether", could be a thinly veiled allusion to his ether addict persona. And his writings are then presumably are a form of twelve step program. Etherheads Anonymous. Notably, AA in the real world has a first names only policy similar to the severed floor's. Season 1 Mark seems to have a drinking problem we attribute to his wife's death but I wonder if that doesn't predate it, or in some fashion have caused it.
If the severed floor is not just a lab rat job, but an addiction treatment program, what are the other's addictions? Helena excuses her innie's gala behavior as alcohol induced, which we know is untrue but still fits the theory as a PR exercise. We don't have much read on Dylan's life but weed seems plausible based on his behavior at home? IDK about Irving but every experiment needs a control?
posted by pwnguin at 10:36 AM on February 14 [12 favorites]
I mentioned this in the first season thread, but: there's a history of twilight sedation in dentistry that is an obvious precursor to severance. Going back further, Kier's factories were producing ether, and Lumon's still apparently in the pharmacy business. Not sure why they keep dentistry tools in the severed floor O&D, but if the elevator does go to hell, then "eternal visit to the dentist's office" seems thematic.
Last episode mentioned a character named Dieter, but diethyl ether, the chemical name for what is commonly known as "ether", could be a thinly veiled allusion to his ether addict persona. And his writings are then presumably are a form of twelve step program. Etherheads Anonymous. Notably, AA in the real world has a first names only policy similar to the severed floor's. Season 1 Mark seems to have a drinking problem we attribute to his wife's death but I wonder if that doesn't predate it, or in some fashion have caused it.
If the severed floor is not just a lab rat job, but an addiction treatment program, what are the other's addictions? Helena excuses her innie's gala behavior as alcohol induced, which we know is untrue but still fits the theory as a PR exercise. We don't have much read on Dylan's life but weed seems plausible based on his behavior at home? IDK about Irving but every experiment needs a control?
posted by pwnguin at 10:36 AM on February 14 [12 favorites]
So about halfway through the episode Mark starts to 'fritz' out and we see the photo of the innies turn into a pile of the same pills he's getting from the reintegration doctor whose name escapes me at the start of the show. This is using the same visual language that we've seen in other re-integration scenes so what if... that photo is in reality actually just a pile of pills? Hear me out here because I think I may have something...
So let's take things at face value and accept the premise that Kier Eagan actually did figure out the four components of 'soul' in the temperaments. That means any issues of the 'soul' would be able to be expressed mathematically by the manipulation of these independent properties right? Think like CMYK for emotions. So we know Macrodata Refiners are processing information that's been encrypted and the work is 'mysterious and important', but if you look at the Lexington Letter there's some hints. Margaret "Peg" Kincaid completes a significant file labeled "Lexington," Peg observes that a truck belonging to Dorner Therapeutics, a major rival of Lumon, explodes shortly thereafter. It's worth noting that Margaret was at a low point in her life when she took the job - so maybe what's happening on the floor is that Lumon is decoupling ethical concerns from practical concerns and sending them down as files for the mdats to work through so they can get to a bottom line of whether or not the actions they want to take are 'ethical' - essentially getting their employees to do the emotional processing for them so they can live lives of calm and ease - you know, kind of like how Meta et al use moderators as human shields for the absolute worst of humanity with no trauma processing. Leave that at work you crybabies!
Anyway, the office photo is there to cheer him up - but why use an actual office photo if you can take a pill and make your 'cheer' go up right? And if you see it as a photo and when you engage with it you are cheered up great, but otherwise its cheaper to just have a handfull of pills - materially abstracted away, but no less effective. And I think that's kind of what's going on everywhere? Like if you look at the Lexington Letter she also has smuggled out a macrodata refiner handbook that includes a surprisingly long bit about hand washing which at first feels like a 'wacky Lumon' bit but if you remember they started as a topical pharamaceutical company you could easily imagine a 'hard work discipline' blend of hand soap being used - or maybe something to keep the Severance up, I dunno.
And like from the start, Mark's been different right? He has the holo head, Cobel has had a particular interest in him, and moreover, we've been told repeatedly this season that his work on Cold Harbor is huge - and now they're saying it's 'change-the-world' huge - so this isnt' going to just be any ethical dilemma. What if instead of refining ethical quandaries he's refining his own trauma around the death of his wife? I mean, severance seems to be able to change the perceptual reality of the severed - at least as the re-integration seems to suggest - so what if Gemma isn't still alive, but she's being deployed by Cobel to prod Mark to work harder on his trauma?
So why would she do this? Well she's a true believer in Kier and believes that in work we purify ourselves. And the frustrating thing is that she seems to be kind of right? If Mark is actually refining his own trauma, that means he's healing himself and getting better - only it's been locked away in Innie Mark while Outie Mark is still tortured by Gemma. But Mark seems to legitimately be healing and moving on with his capital-r Real relationship with inner Helly but he just accidentally maybe sired an heir that may be the rebirth of Kier Egan fulfilling the prophecy Cobel was seeking to fulfill?
posted by bookwo3107 at 11:20 AM on February 14
So let's take things at face value and accept the premise that Kier Eagan actually did figure out the four components of 'soul' in the temperaments. That means any issues of the 'soul' would be able to be expressed mathematically by the manipulation of these independent properties right? Think like CMYK for emotions. So we know Macrodata Refiners are processing information that's been encrypted and the work is 'mysterious and important', but if you look at the Lexington Letter there's some hints. Margaret "Peg" Kincaid completes a significant file labeled "Lexington," Peg observes that a truck belonging to Dorner Therapeutics, a major rival of Lumon, explodes shortly thereafter. It's worth noting that Margaret was at a low point in her life when she took the job - so maybe what's happening on the floor is that Lumon is decoupling ethical concerns from practical concerns and sending them down as files for the mdats to work through so they can get to a bottom line of whether or not the actions they want to take are 'ethical' - essentially getting their employees to do the emotional processing for them so they can live lives of calm and ease - you know, kind of like how Meta et al use moderators as human shields for the absolute worst of humanity with no trauma processing. Leave that at work you crybabies!
Anyway, the office photo is there to cheer him up - but why use an actual office photo if you can take a pill and make your 'cheer' go up right? And if you see it as a photo and when you engage with it you are cheered up great, but otherwise its cheaper to just have a handfull of pills - materially abstracted away, but no less effective. And I think that's kind of what's going on everywhere? Like if you look at the Lexington Letter she also has smuggled out a macrodata refiner handbook that includes a surprisingly long bit about hand washing which at first feels like a 'wacky Lumon' bit but if you remember they started as a topical pharamaceutical company you could easily imagine a 'hard work discipline' blend of hand soap being used - or maybe something to keep the Severance up, I dunno.
And like from the start, Mark's been different right? He has the holo head, Cobel has had a particular interest in him, and moreover, we've been told repeatedly this season that his work on Cold Harbor is huge - and now they're saying it's 'change-the-world' huge - so this isnt' going to just be any ethical dilemma. What if instead of refining ethical quandaries he's refining his own trauma around the death of his wife? I mean, severance seems to be able to change the perceptual reality of the severed - at least as the re-integration seems to suggest - so what if Gemma isn't still alive, but she's being deployed by Cobel to prod Mark to work harder on his trauma?
So why would she do this? Well she's a true believer in Kier and believes that in work we purify ourselves. And the frustrating thing is that she seems to be kind of right? If Mark is actually refining his own trauma, that means he's healing himself and getting better - only it's been locked away in Innie Mark while Outie Mark is still tortured by Gemma. But Mark seems to legitimately be healing and moving on with his capital-r Real relationship with inner Helly but he just accidentally maybe sired an heir that may be the rebirth of Kier Egan fulfilling the prophecy Cobel was seeking to fulfill?
posted by bookwo3107 at 11:20 AM on February 14
And of all the songs they could choose, why that one in particular? I can't imagine sunken ships or the men lost with them figure directly into Severance's story, but then who knows.
"The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead" was the first line of the song that came to mind for me, given the situation with Irv in the prior episode, and the larger storyline with Gemma.
Did O&D make the dental tools?
Felt so bad for Helly in this episode. Imagine her process - from being tackled at the reception, to waking up with her face underwater, outside, Irv getting dismissed, and then - back in the elevator but everything and everyone is different. Mark is not willing to talk to her, for all kinds of reasons, and Dylan is changed too...she has no idea what the others went through, what's happening, and can't catch up. And Britt did a fantastic acting job, as she has all season (that face as Helena got on the elevator - the dread, the fear of giving control over to Helly!). So did Adam Scott, in the scenes both with Helly and Milchek.
That final scene with Milchek and Mark in the elevator; the way it was framed, and how Milchek "crossed the line" to get in Mark's face...amazing stuff.
posted by nubs at 11:22 AM on February 14 [5 favorites]
"The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead" was the first line of the song that came to mind for me, given the situation with Irv in the prior episode, and the larger storyline with Gemma.
Did O&D make the dental tools?
Felt so bad for Helly in this episode. Imagine her process - from being tackled at the reception, to waking up with her face underwater, outside, Irv getting dismissed, and then - back in the elevator but everything and everyone is different. Mark is not willing to talk to her, for all kinds of reasons, and Dylan is changed too...she has no idea what the others went through, what's happening, and can't catch up. And Britt did a fantastic acting job, as she has all season (that face as Helena got on the elevator - the dread, the fear of giving control over to Helly!). So did Adam Scott, in the scenes both with Helly and Milchek.
That final scene with Milchek and Mark in the elevator; the way it was framed, and how Milchek "crossed the line" to get in Mark's face...amazing stuff.
posted by nubs at 11:22 AM on February 14 [5 favorites]
Make sure to listen to the official podcast — Michael Chernus is the guest this week and they do a dive into Ricken and Devon's relationship, his motivation, etc.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:36 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
posted by nathan_teske at 11:36 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
The elevator scene, with Milchick literally crossing the line to deliver the "fucked her outie" bomb, yeah. He's tightening the leash, but that also feels a reaction to the "uses too many long words" contention from his performance review: we've never seen Milchick's language this forceful and direct before. His normal formal and slightly flowery language sets a distance between him and the innies; the deliberate drop down to "fucked" is him closing that gap.
Also in framing: the Mark/Helly bathroom conversation, using the bathroom mirror to frame Mark between two copies of Helly.
SO MUCH TO LOVE in the whole performance review. The quiet horror of this multi-hour ordeal being a monthly thing; the "here is the lunch menu" moment; "atonements and approbations"; "urinalysis in the excellent range"; the paperclips; Milchick's "perchance I may colloquially deploy..."
Again Sydney Cole Alexander as Natalie does so much with just her face. All business when it's just her, Drummond, and Helena; the masking smile is back when it's her and Milchick, but it's a lot less fixed and a lot less certain now.
Outie Burt feels more dramatically different to his innie than the other characters do? This is partly environmental -- situation, costuming, lighting all very different to scenes we saw his innie in; but I think also acting; Walken is playing him differently, outie Burt is more rigid, more steely.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:14 PM on February 14 [12 favorites]
Also in framing: the Mark/Helly bathroom conversation, using the bathroom mirror to frame Mark between two copies of Helly.
SO MUCH TO LOVE in the whole performance review. The quiet horror of this multi-hour ordeal being a monthly thing; the "here is the lunch menu" moment; "atonements and approbations"; "urinalysis in the excellent range"; the paperclips; Milchick's "perchance I may colloquially deploy..."
Again Sydney Cole Alexander as Natalie does so much with just her face. All business when it's just her, Drummond, and Helena; the masking smile is back when it's her and Milchick, but it's a lot less fixed and a lot less certain now.
Outie Burt feels more dramatically different to his innie than the other characters do? This is partly environmental -- situation, costuming, lighting all very different to scenes we saw his innie in; but I think also acting; Walken is playing him differently, outie Burt is more rigid, more steely.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:14 PM on February 14 [12 favorites]
Also, it feels not at all accidental that the set design of the O&D drawers very much suggests a morgue.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:17 PM on February 14 [15 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:17 PM on February 14 [15 favorites]
Why would they hide his face?
Maybe it's Fields. Just a random thought based on nothing but the opportunity for "Fields" to be someone we know.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:21 PM on February 14 [3 favorites]
Oh, also-also, I liked the little this-is-Helly-now confirmation of her being startled by Ms. Huang -- "who the fuck are you?!" -- because yes, this is the first time Helly has encountered her.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:23 PM on February 14 [5 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:23 PM on February 14 [5 favorites]
But I cannot believe Mark's "lets forget about it" bit. WTF?
I think large chunks of this episode were Mark starting process exactly what happened to him during the ORTBO. Beyond the idea of Helena spying on them, he's grappling with the idea that he acted on the feelings he had for Helly when it was Helena seducing him. That (a) he couldn't tell them apart, as she rightly points out; and that (b) sharing what happened between him and her Outie would be devastating to Helly. Both because of (a) and because Helly hates her Outie.
Mark's rejection of Helly here is an attempt to deal with his trauma, and spare her anguish, I think. He doesn't want to feel vulnerable, and everything about Helly/Helena right now reminds him how powerless he is in the face of Lumon as well as a reminder of the level of power the Outies have over them - they can literally end their existence by quitting. Plus the re-integration is starting to have an effect; we're seeing a far more cynical, abrasive Mark S. Innie.
Outie Burt feels more dramatically different to his innie than the other characters do?
Helena feels very different to Helly to me; but I also think that the Innies are all reflections of parts of the personalities their Outies hide to some degree. There's a sublimation process here that is maybe key to them being able to do the MDR work? More in touch with their emotional processes and desires? I still feel like we know the least about Outie Irv right now, and I'm intrigued to learn more about him.
posted by nubs at 12:40 PM on February 14 [7 favorites]
I think large chunks of this episode were Mark starting process exactly what happened to him during the ORTBO. Beyond the idea of Helena spying on them, he's grappling with the idea that he acted on the feelings he had for Helly when it was Helena seducing him. That (a) he couldn't tell them apart, as she rightly points out; and that (b) sharing what happened between him and her Outie would be devastating to Helly. Both because of (a) and because Helly hates her Outie.
Mark's rejection of Helly here is an attempt to deal with his trauma, and spare her anguish, I think. He doesn't want to feel vulnerable, and everything about Helly/Helena right now reminds him how powerless he is in the face of Lumon as well as a reminder of the level of power the Outies have over them - they can literally end their existence by quitting. Plus the re-integration is starting to have an effect; we're seeing a far more cynical, abrasive Mark S. Innie.
Outie Burt feels more dramatically different to his innie than the other characters do?
Helena feels very different to Helly to me; but I also think that the Innies are all reflections of parts of the personalities their Outies hide to some degree. There's a sublimation process here that is maybe key to them being able to do the MDR work? More in touch with their emotional processes and desires? I still feel like we know the least about Outie Irv right now, and I'm intrigued to learn more about him.
posted by nubs at 12:40 PM on February 14 [7 favorites]
This episode reassured me, because last episode felt a little bit off the rails, and this one felt very in control.
My theory is that the macrodata refiners are doing something similar to mind control to human subjects whose brains are the files. It's a religiously motivated process based on Kier's theories, and Keir's followers would probably say that its goal was something like "enlightenment." We've seen one human person whose file was definitely processed. That's Ms Casey, and she behaves in an odd way. You could read different things into that character and that performance, but she follows the rules she's been given. She says stuff like "please enjoy all facts equally" in a way where she's totally convinced that what she's saying makes sense and is just. So a person with a processed file might be the sort of ultimate innie version of themselves -- not rebellious, not conflicted, just ready to perform whatever task Lumon asks of them with a smile, pep, and dedication. It's possible that Mark is working on the raw data from the walt disney-style frozen heid of Keir, that was my theory before, but I'm leaning more now towards Mark working on creating a perfect, automoton-like version of his own innie. That would be huge, dramatic stakes, for one thing: it could temporarily close the door integration is opening, making a new dynamic with the other innies. It would make sense as a huge breakthrough for Lumon -- now, we have allowed workers to perfect themselves, kind of thing. IDK. It's hard to say where this very cool show is going. I can't wait for each episode.
posted by Rinku at 1:38 PM on February 14 [4 favorites]
My theory is that the macrodata refiners are doing something similar to mind control to human subjects whose brains are the files. It's a religiously motivated process based on Kier's theories, and Keir's followers would probably say that its goal was something like "enlightenment." We've seen one human person whose file was definitely processed. That's Ms Casey, and she behaves in an odd way. You could read different things into that character and that performance, but she follows the rules she's been given. She says stuff like "please enjoy all facts equally" in a way where she's totally convinced that what she's saying makes sense and is just. So a person with a processed file might be the sort of ultimate innie version of themselves -- not rebellious, not conflicted, just ready to perform whatever task Lumon asks of them with a smile, pep, and dedication. It's possible that Mark is working on the raw data from the walt disney-style frozen heid of Keir, that was my theory before, but I'm leaning more now towards Mark working on creating a perfect, automoton-like version of his own innie. That would be huge, dramatic stakes, for one thing: it could temporarily close the door integration is opening, making a new dynamic with the other innies. It would make sense as a huge breakthrough for Lumon -- now, we have allowed workers to perfect themselves, kind of thing. IDK. It's hard to say where this very cool show is going. I can't wait for each episode.
posted by Rinku at 1:38 PM on February 14 [4 favorites]
The Edmund Fitzgerald was headed towards a (presumably) cold harbor. It never got there.
posted by nat at 2:59 PM on February 14 [11 favorites]
posted by nat at 2:59 PM on February 14 [11 favorites]
Milchick looked so sad when he confirmed that Irv was really gone for good in his initial meeting with the innies. I liked how "this went well" could have been either typical corporate doublethink BS or an emblem of how much worse he expected it to go.
Nitpicking his vocabulary and paperclip usage in his formal review, especially with the "anonymous" tip that could only have been from one person, was TOO real. It's been almost seven years since my escape from corporate life and that triggered my fight or flight efficiently.
They've set up an interesting character moment where Helly is even more at odds with her outie than ever before, while in practical terms she's never had more in common with her--Helena now, like Helly, has no choice about whether or not she goes to the severed floor.
I hope they don't spend too much longer teasing out what outie Irv is up to. I'm curious how he knows that his innie was on track to discover the elevator, and of course who he's talking to on the pay phone. I also thought of Fields as a possible identity for the Wreck-whistler.
Are Devon and Ricken deliberately talking around the idea of sending the innies a coded message in the book? Devon has been helping Mark try to get a message to his innie. Ricken mentions the myth of the Trojan horse. But it doesn't seem to quite click for either of them.
And his writings are then presumably are a form of twelve step program.
Absolutely love this analysis. Many have pointed out the similarities between the Kier cult and other home-grown American religions like Mormonism and Scientology. (Milchick referring to the oblivion of nonexistence as "the eternal dark" last week felt very Mormon to me). In a way, AA fits the bill as well.
posted by lampoil at 4:19 PM on February 14 [3 favorites]
Nitpicking his vocabulary and paperclip usage in his formal review, especially with the "anonymous" tip that could only have been from one person, was TOO real. It's been almost seven years since my escape from corporate life and that triggered my fight or flight efficiently.
They've set up an interesting character moment where Helly is even more at odds with her outie than ever before, while in practical terms she's never had more in common with her--Helena now, like Helly, has no choice about whether or not she goes to the severed floor.
I hope they don't spend too much longer teasing out what outie Irv is up to. I'm curious how he knows that his innie was on track to discover the elevator, and of course who he's talking to on the pay phone. I also thought of Fields as a possible identity for the Wreck-whistler.
Are Devon and Ricken deliberately talking around the idea of sending the innies a coded message in the book? Devon has been helping Mark try to get a message to his innie. Ricken mentions the myth of the Trojan horse. But it doesn't seem to quite click for either of them.
And his writings are then presumably are a form of twelve step program.
Absolutely love this analysis. Many have pointed out the similarities between the Kier cult and other home-grown American religions like Mormonism and Scientology. (Milchick referring to the oblivion of nonexistence as "the eternal dark" last week felt very Mormon to me). In a way, AA fits the bill as well.
posted by lampoil at 4:19 PM on February 14 [3 favorites]
me: Why would they hide his face?
oneirodynia: Maybe it's Fields. Just a random thought based on nothing but the opportunity for "Fields" to be someone we know.
lampoil: I also thought of Fields as a possible identity for the Wreck-whistler.
Maybe, but that did not look like John Noble's head or body.
posted by tzikeh at 5:14 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
oneirodynia: Maybe it's Fields. Just a random thought based on nothing but the opportunity for "Fields" to be someone we know.
lampoil: I also thought of Fields as a possible identity for the Wreck-whistler.
Maybe, but that did not look like John Noble's head or body.
posted by tzikeh at 5:14 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
Like Rinku, I was reassured by this episode. I’m back to being invested.
posted by willF at 5:17 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
posted by willF at 5:17 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
Maybe it's Fields. Just a random thought based on nothing but the opportunity for "Fields" to be someone we know.
The only person I can think of we haven't seen on the severed floor that makes sense is Petey.
posted by pwnguin at 5:23 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
The only person I can think of we haven't seen on the severed floor that makes sense is Petey.
posted by pwnguin at 5:23 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
People, I just rewatched. Devon and Ricken were both wearing some blue, and Devon was wearing kind of teardrop earrings, as in the Lumon water drop symbol.
I have the beginning of a theory about Ricken that I can't quite articulate yet.
Also, that last scene was 2001-ish. (Thinking of the Turturro interview that mentioned Kubrick.)
Finally, the Eagans really are into their mythology based on what Mr Drummond said to Helena about her recuperation. (Her tempers in balance? Having some kind of session that evening).
posted by NorthernLite at 7:04 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
I have the beginning of a theory about Ricken that I can't quite articulate yet.
Also, that last scene was 2001-ish. (Thinking of the Turturro interview that mentioned Kubrick.)
Finally, the Eagans really are into their mythology based on what Mr Drummond said to Helena about her recuperation. (Her tempers in balance? Having some kind of session that evening).
posted by NorthernLite at 7:04 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
I'm confused about how (let alone why) Lumon came into possession of Gemma or Gemma's body. Reghabi said that they know people at the morgue. Does that mean that Gemma actually died, and Lumon switched her body with someone else's to get the remains? I had been assuming that Gemma was really alive, but if she really did die? Is Ms. Casey a Trojan Horse -- looks like Gemma, but there's something else that Lumon put inside? And, very sadly for Mark-outie, Gemma's never coming back.
We know that Irving-outie or a previous innie has been to the Exports Hall, at least stood at the end of the hallway and saw the elevator go down. And, Reghabi said that she doesn't know if Ms. Casey is being hurt down where she is. Maybe Mark is balancing Ms. Casey's humors in Cold Harbor because he knows her best, but he's preparing her to be permanently severed into an Eagan?
Does this all tie back to Harmony trying to bring her mother back into another body?
Even though I'm super invested in these questions, I love watching this show. After a whole episode of Helly R, I can't believe I was ever confused by Helena.
posted by gladly at 7:23 PM on February 14 [3 favorites]
We know that Irving-outie or a previous innie has been to the Exports Hall, at least stood at the end of the hallway and saw the elevator go down. And, Reghabi said that she doesn't know if Ms. Casey is being hurt down where she is. Maybe Mark is balancing Ms. Casey's humors in Cold Harbor because he knows her best, but he's preparing her to be permanently severed into an Eagan?
Does this all tie back to Harmony trying to bring her mother back into another body?
Even though I'm super invested in these questions, I love watching this show. After a whole episode of Helly R, I can't believe I was ever confused by Helena.
posted by gladly at 7:23 PM on February 14 [3 favorites]
Mark’s face at the end where he sees his wife’s “live” face for the first time in years is heartbreaking. Loving the attitude his innie has toward management. They fucked him (literally and figuratively) so they’re not getting anything but work from him. Also, he seems ok to just do his job and go home now. What more do they want from him? They need him to be happy too? Fuck that shit. He’s doing his work. Leave him alone.
What if Fields is another Lumon spy like Ms Selvig was for Mark!?!
I hope they don't spend too much longer teasing out what outie Irv is up to. I'm curious how he knows that his innie was on track to discover the elevator
I don’t think O-Irv was able to communicate or get his innie to be a part of his plan. He has no idea what his innie is doing. He thinks he’s getting fired because his innie is doing something as part of O-Irv’s plan, but we know he’s been fired because of the OT last season (spurred by Burt retiring) and drowning Helena, neither of which seem to be related to any outside plan by O-Irv. I think he just doesn’t know what he talking about when he says that line to the person on the phone.
The only person I can think of we haven't seen on the severed floor that makes sense is Petey.
We actually saw Petey collapse and die. We saw Cobel take the chip out of his head at the funeral. I highly doubt it’s Petey and would be pretty pissed if they somehow brought him back alive after all that.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:06 PM on February 14 [4 favorites]
What if Fields is another Lumon spy like Ms Selvig was for Mark!?!
I hope they don't spend too much longer teasing out what outie Irv is up to. I'm curious how he knows that his innie was on track to discover the elevator
I don’t think O-Irv was able to communicate or get his innie to be a part of his plan. He has no idea what his innie is doing. He thinks he’s getting fired because his innie is doing something as part of O-Irv’s plan, but we know he’s been fired because of the OT last season (spurred by Burt retiring) and drowning Helena, neither of which seem to be related to any outside plan by O-Irv. I think he just doesn’t know what he talking about when he says that line to the person on the phone.
The only person I can think of we haven't seen on the severed floor that makes sense is Petey.
We actually saw Petey collapse and die. We saw Cobel take the chip out of his head at the funeral. I highly doubt it’s Petey and would be pretty pissed if they somehow brought him back alive after all that.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:06 PM on February 14 [4 favorites]
Reghabi said that they know people at the morgue. Does that mean that Gemma actually died..
Not necessarily - I interpreted that as "we know people at the morgue so we could get a corpse to burn", not that they switched Gemma's corpse.
We saw Cobel take the chip out of his head at the funeral
And we also haven't seen shit about Cobel for nigh on four episodes now. That's a ticking time-bomb waiting to escalate things, and no mistake...
posted by coriolisdave at 8:31 PM on February 14 [2 favorites]
Not necessarily - I interpreted that as "we know people at the morgue so we could get a corpse to burn", not that they switched Gemma's corpse.
We saw Cobel take the chip out of his head at the funeral
And we also haven't seen shit about Cobel for nigh on four episodes now. That's a ticking time-bomb waiting to escalate things, and no mistake...
posted by coriolisdave at 8:31 PM on February 14 [2 favorites]
In response to some comments above:
When someone (Drummond?) said "he's at 81%" regarding Cold Harbor, I took that to mean "Mark is at 81% completion" rather than confirmation that the file is in fact a person/reanimated spirit/what-have-you.
Milchik mentions that funerals are normally only for Innies who (literally) die on the Severed floor, while Retirement Parties are for Innies whose Outie is leaving the company. Irving wasn't retired, but he also didn't die on the Severed Floor, so they are bending the rules to hold a funeral for Irving. So presumably Dylan et al. know about funerals through their corporate training (just as they know about Waffle Parties, etc.), rather than it being another example of something for which they have a concept but no concrete experience (like everything they first experienced on the ORTBO).
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:20 PM on February 14 [6 favorites]
When someone (Drummond?) said "he's at 81%" regarding Cold Harbor, I took that to mean "Mark is at 81% completion" rather than confirmation that the file is in fact a person/reanimated spirit/what-have-you.
Milchik mentions that funerals are normally only for Innies who (literally) die on the Severed floor, while Retirement Parties are for Innies whose Outie is leaving the company. Irving wasn't retired, but he also didn't die on the Severed Floor, so they are bending the rules to hold a funeral for Irving. So presumably Dylan et al. know about funerals through their corporate training (just as they know about Waffle Parties, etc.), rather than it being another example of something for which they have a concept but no concrete experience (like everything they first experienced on the ORTBO).
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:20 PM on February 14 [6 favorites]
I was wondering how the show was going to prove to the viewers that Helly was in charge instead of Helena for a given scene. We saw one possibility this week: we're there for the moment of transition in the elevator. (That effect has been used so many times now that we can place trust in it; if the show ever did that as a head-fake in a situation where someone didn't transition between outie and innie, it'd be a “fuck you I'm never watching this show again” sort of violation for me.)
From then on, I was happy to give them the benefit of the doubt that Helly was in charge that day.
But there's the bigger problem of how Helly can prove to Mark that she's truly Helly on a given day. The point may be that she honestly can't, and I'd be OK with that if it led to somewhere interesting. But I'd prefer if they figured out a clever way for her to prove it, like the totems in Inception — a shared secret, a shape surreptitiously traced on a palm, or something like that. Something that even Helena and Lumon’s surveillance can't touch.
On the other hand, if I were Mark, I'm not sure even that would give me piece of mind. The rules of severance for the viewer are pretty straightforwardly an on/off thing (until the destabilizing effects of reintegration) — but for all Mark knows, Lumon could flip a different switch and allow Helena to eavesdrop on Helly's consciousness. He didn't even know the overtime protocol was possible.
dry white toast: "In closing, all hail Queen Devon."
It still makes me nervous, though! Ricken's vanity and insecurity is being exploited here, and it's a slow-motion trainwreck that's clearly driving Devon insane, but how is this plot line going to end in a way that's true to her character? If he sells his soul to Lumon for a paycheck and betrays Devon's own brother… have the writers shown us anything about Devon as a person to make us think she'd tolerate that?
posted by savetheclocktower at 12:45 AM on February 15 [2 favorites]
From then on, I was happy to give them the benefit of the doubt that Helly was in charge that day.
But there's the bigger problem of how Helly can prove to Mark that she's truly Helly on a given day. The point may be that she honestly can't, and I'd be OK with that if it led to somewhere interesting. But I'd prefer if they figured out a clever way for her to prove it, like the totems in Inception — a shared secret, a shape surreptitiously traced on a palm, or something like that. Something that even Helena and Lumon’s surveillance can't touch.
On the other hand, if I were Mark, I'm not sure even that would give me piece of mind. The rules of severance for the viewer are pretty straightforwardly an on/off thing (until the destabilizing effects of reintegration) — but for all Mark knows, Lumon could flip a different switch and allow Helena to eavesdrop on Helly's consciousness. He didn't even know the overtime protocol was possible.
dry white toast: "In closing, all hail Queen Devon."
It still makes me nervous, though! Ricken's vanity and insecurity is being exploited here, and it's a slow-motion trainwreck that's clearly driving Devon insane, but how is this plot line going to end in a way that's true to her character? If he sells his soul to Lumon for a paycheck and betrays Devon's own brother… have the writers shown us anything about Devon as a person to make us think she'd tolerate that?
posted by savetheclocktower at 12:45 AM on February 15 [2 favorites]
Last season took great pains to separate the twin roles of outie and innie, and the twin places of “the severed floor” and the real world. This season is about messing up those roles and boundaries - mark getting lippy with milcheck, the last episode with the innies in an outside space, the goats being an outdoor space inside the inner severed floor, and poor Helly/Helena. I suspect that the narrative arc for this means we will either see innies on the outside, or a recombined Mark forced to work inside the severed floor.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:37 AM on February 15 [1 favorite]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:37 AM on February 15 [1 favorite]
> Not sure why they keep dentistry tools in the severed floor O&D
Dental tools are useful for art restoration! The little mirrors not so much, but "scrape small amounts of something off a surface, very carefully" is a use case that occurs in both dentistry and working with artworks, and there's no sense re-inventing the wheel. I've seen Baumgartner Restoration on youtube use dental picks like those on a painting many times, so it made perfect sense to me that O&D had a set.
> but why did they spell it “Trojan’s”
Aren't all the episodes named with a direct quote from each episode? At some level they didn't name it "Trojan Horse" because nobody in the episode said that. Somebody *did* say "Trojan's Horse", so they could use that as a title. Why that phrase and not any other line from the episode is a different question, but it couldn't be named "Trojan Horse" without breaking the naming scheme.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 3:33 AM on February 15 [3 favorites]
Dental tools are useful for art restoration! The little mirrors not so much, but "scrape small amounts of something off a surface, very carefully" is a use case that occurs in both dentistry and working with artworks, and there's no sense re-inventing the wheel. I've seen Baumgartner Restoration on youtube use dental picks like those on a painting many times, so it made perfect sense to me that O&D had a set.
> but why did they spell it “Trojan’s”
Aren't all the episodes named with a direct quote from each episode? At some level they didn't name it "Trojan Horse" because nobody in the episode said that. Somebody *did* say "Trojan's Horse", so they could use that as a title. Why that phrase and not any other line from the episode is a different question, but it couldn't be named "Trojan Horse" without breaking the naming scheme.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 3:33 AM on February 15 [3 favorites]
Rambling...
Has anyone else considered that Devon is severed? Among other things, I keep going back to her interchange with Mark at the party where she asks Mark to tell her what her name is. He replies, Persephone, who of course is daughter of Zeus and Demeter who spends half the year in Hades and half on earth. Also I believe at least twice in the show Devon has had a conversation with Ricken that ended with her saying she was going to bed. Is this an allusion to Devon changing her state from one half of her personality to the other?
...end rambling
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 4:00 AM on February 15 [5 favorites]
Has anyone else considered that Devon is severed? Among other things, I keep going back to her interchange with Mark at the party where she asks Mark to tell her what her name is. He replies, Persephone, who of course is daughter of Zeus and Demeter who spends half the year in Hades and half on earth. Also I believe at least twice in the show Devon has had a conversation with Ricken that ended with her saying she was going to bed. Is this an allusion to Devon changing her state from one half of her personality to the other?
...end rambling
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 4:00 AM on February 15 [5 favorites]
On “Trojan’s Horse” — it’s a little error that introduces thematically meaningful ambiguity into the phrase. The original Trojan Horse belonged to the Greeks — it was their ruse to smuggle soldiers into Troy. So the Trojan Horse was, in some sense, really the Greeks’ Horse. Referring to it as Trojan’s Horse is just a malapropism from Ricken, but it also implies that the Trojans are the ones in charge, not the ones being fooled — a double-cross?
From there one can start to ask things like…
- Ricken claims he’s smuggling radical ideas onto the Severed Floor under cover of corporate compliance. But it’s the reverse, right? Lumon is smuggling corporate compliance into the outside world using Ricken as a vehicle.
- All the innies are is carrying outies inside them and vice versa. Which is the horse and which is the soldier inside? For instance, when Helly thinks she’s in control, is Helena still watching? And when Helena is in the outside world, could she be carrying some secret sympathy for the innies? Outie Irv seems to be running some kind of mission; was his innie a Trojan Horse for his plans?
And so on and so forth.
posted by ourobouros at 5:34 AM on February 15 [14 favorites]
From there one can start to ask things like…
- Ricken claims he’s smuggling radical ideas onto the Severed Floor under cover of corporate compliance. But it’s the reverse, right? Lumon is smuggling corporate compliance into the outside world using Ricken as a vehicle.
- All the innies are is carrying outies inside them and vice versa. Which is the horse and which is the soldier inside? For instance, when Helly thinks she’s in control, is Helena still watching? And when Helena is in the outside world, could she be carrying some secret sympathy for the innies? Outie Irv seems to be running some kind of mission; was his innie a Trojan Horse for his plans?
And so on and so forth.
posted by ourobouros at 5:34 AM on February 15 [14 favorites]
ourobouros, that's some truly delightful eponysteria right there. Thanks for shedding light on this irritating yet obviously purposeful malapropism.
posted by eirias at 5:57 AM on February 15 [3 favorites]
posted by eirias at 5:57 AM on February 15 [3 favorites]
When Milchick was in the elevator, was that the first time Mark learned that Helena was an Eagan?
posted by Acari at 6:41 AM on February 15
posted by Acari at 6:41 AM on February 15
I don’t think O-Irv was able to communicate or get his innie to be a part of his plan. He has no idea what his innie is doing. He thinks he’s getting fired because his innie is doing something as part of O-Irv’s plan, but we know he’s been fired because of the OT last season (spurred by Burt retiring) and drowning Helena, neither of which seem to be related to any outside plan by O-Irv.
Right, that's clear. At the same time, he's not exactly wrong, either. It seems like he was trying to point his innie toward the elevator, and his innie did end up pointed toward the elevator. (Not exactly how he planned, perhaps, but his paintings at the very least were key). Also, he, Outie Irv, somehow knew about the elevator. How does he know that, and what else does he know? That's what I'm curious about.
posted by lampoil at 6:49 AM on February 15 [3 favorites]
Right, that's clear. At the same time, he's not exactly wrong, either. It seems like he was trying to point his innie toward the elevator, and his innie did end up pointed toward the elevator. (Not exactly how he planned, perhaps, but his paintings at the very least were key). Also, he, Outie Irv, somehow knew about the elevator. How does he know that, and what else does he know? That's what I'm curious about.
posted by lampoil at 6:49 AM on February 15 [3 favorites]
Unless I’ve missed something, the world of Severance - especially on the severed floor - has been relatively devoid of pop culture of any kind. It’s been kind of what’s made the world a bit unsettling. So to open the show with The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald seems like it has to be significant. I do like what nat said but I wonder if beyond the poetic the mere fact this mystery person is able to whistle a song down there is significant.
(It’s also entirely possible I’ve missed some detail somewhere and my whole fixation on this is completely meaningless).
posted by eekernohan at 7:02 AM on February 15 [4 favorites]
(It’s also entirely possible I’ve missed some detail somewhere and my whole fixation on this is completely meaningless).
posted by eekernohan at 7:02 AM on February 15 [4 favorites]
and he is very likely born into the only local wealthy family: the Eagans.
Since season 1 I’ve been saying that Ricken could be Helena’s brother, who, for some reason, was released from the family (for rebelling?) and they sent him out into the world as a permanent innie.
He could be any of a number of experiments they’ve tried so far. They know who he is when they find the book. They’re tracking him and thought there may be messages in the book.
As for Devon’s interest. My first thought, last season, was “How bad was her dating history that Ricken is a good choice?” Well - he’s kind. And harmless-ish.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:32 AM on February 15 [1 favorite]
Since season 1 I’ve been saying that Ricken could be Helena’s brother, who, for some reason, was released from the family (for rebelling?) and they sent him out into the world as a permanent innie.
He could be any of a number of experiments they’ve tried so far. They know who he is when they find the book. They’re tracking him and thought there may be messages in the book.
As for Devon’s interest. My first thought, last season, was “How bad was her dating history that Ricken is a good choice?” Well - he’s kind. And harmless-ish.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:32 AM on February 15 [1 favorite]
When Milchick was in the elevator, was that the first time Mark learned that Helena was an Eagan?
Nah, they knew at the point where Irving was dunking her, and they discussed it in Milchick's office later (but before the elevator confrontation near the end) - it was even part of Milchick's excuse (with the king's robes story).
posted by destructive cactus at 8:32 AM on February 15 [3 favorites]
Nah, they knew at the point where Irving was dunking her, and they discussed it in Milchick's office later (but before the elevator confrontation near the end) - it was even part of Milchick's excuse (with the king's robes story).
posted by destructive cactus at 8:32 AM on February 15 [3 favorites]
On one hand, Mark is reintegrating with Regahbi through her medical process in his basement, by hacking his chip. But also, at the same time, Mark's outie feels a sense of motivation and purpose now, and simultaneously Mark's innie is experiencing grief, loss, and a sense of failure. So the two halves of Mark are kind of moving to meet in the middle, even as a door is opening between them, in kind of an interesting way. Love this show.
posted by Rinku at 8:56 AM on February 15 [13 favorites]
posted by Rinku at 8:56 AM on February 15 [13 favorites]
Yeah they way things move thematically as a mirror to the actual plot is a real treat in this show. Also I love this arc for Milchick:
S1) this guy is a weirdo because he's in a cult
S2) no, even the other cult members think he's a weirdo
S3) this guy is a weirdo because of strong personal convictions and not even the cult can take that from him
Also maybe Milchick has a crush on Helena? That would explain some of the aggression in the elevator.
posted by grog at 9:38 AM on February 15 [2 favorites]
S1) this guy is a weirdo because he's in a cult
S2) no, even the other cult members think he's a weirdo
S3) this guy is a weirdo because of strong personal convictions and not even the cult can take that from him
Also maybe Milchick has a crush on Helena? That would explain some of the aggression in the elevator.
posted by grog at 9:38 AM on February 15 [2 favorites]
Nah, they knew at the point where Irving was dunking her
Yeah, Mark even asked Huang when Helly said hi, "Is she-?" (her innie).
That makes me think - in the previous episode, in what form were they transported to and from the retreat? There must be another state of consciousness. (IIRC another setting seen in Security last season was "Lullaby.")
Because Lumon can't have all the Outies traveling together.
And at the end, both OIrv and newly awakened iHelly would've had questions. Easier to zap them all into some third neutral state.
Is the show hand waving that away, or will it come up again.
posted by NorthernLite at 9:58 AM on February 15 [1 favorite]
Yeah, Mark even asked Huang when Helly said hi, "Is she-?" (her innie).
That makes me think - in the previous episode, in what form were they transported to and from the retreat? There must be another state of consciousness. (IIRC another setting seen in Security last season was "Lullaby.")
Because Lumon can't have all the Outies traveling together.
And at the end, both OIrv and newly awakened iHelly would've had questions. Easier to zap them all into some third neutral state.
Is the show hand waving that away, or will it come up again.
posted by NorthernLite at 9:58 AM on February 15 [1 favorite]
Also maybe Milchick has a crush on Helena?
Remember when he looked at undercover Helena while talking to the group and said something about going to a bistro? There has to be an Outside context to that.
posted by NorthernLite at 10:01 AM on February 15
Remember when he looked at undercover Helena while talking to the group and said something about going to a bistro? There has to be an Outside context to that.
posted by NorthernLite at 10:01 AM on February 15
But I'd prefer if they figured out a clever way for her to prove it
Irving always greeted everyone in the morning with "Hi kids! What's for dinner?" It's why when he said "Hey kid" to "Helly" at Woe's Hollow and she didn't respond with "...what's for dinner?" he was 100% convinced it was not Helly.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:12 PM on February 15 [10 favorites]
Irving always greeted everyone in the morning with "Hi kids! What's for dinner?" It's why when he said "Hey kid" to "Helly" at Woe's Hollow and she didn't respond with "...what's for dinner?" he was 100% convinced it was not Helly.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:12 PM on February 15 [10 favorites]
Helena walking in and sitting at the conference room table, her body language seemed way different - more confident, maybe?
Helly, on the other hand was stalking around like an angry beast. And I notice she did take a moment to examine the painting of the “traitors”.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:55 PM on February 15
Helly, on the other hand was stalking around like an angry beast. And I notice she did take a moment to examine the painting of the “traitors”.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:55 PM on February 15
When Milchick was in the elevator, was that the first time Mark learned that Helena was an Eagan?
Oh God no - he learned that at the end of the last episode with everyone else. It's a big part of why he was so angry this whole episode - knowing that he'd had sex with Helena when he thought he was having sex with Helly is a double strike - one because he quite literally did not consent to have sex with the person he had sex with, and two because just imagine how angry and sad and confused he must be that *he couldn't tell*? All of that paired up with the bleeding in of the reintegration made for Mark being *very* techy and frustrated angry this episode.
posted by tzikeh at 4:03 PM on February 15 [4 favorites]
Oh God no - he learned that at the end of the last episode with everyone else. It's a big part of why he was so angry this whole episode - knowing that he'd had sex with Helena when he thought he was having sex with Helly is a double strike - one because he quite literally did not consent to have sex with the person he had sex with, and two because just imagine how angry and sad and confused he must be that *he couldn't tell*? All of that paired up with the bleeding in of the reintegration made for Mark being *very* techy and frustrated angry this episode.
posted by tzikeh at 4:03 PM on February 15 [4 favorites]
S1) this guy is a weirdo because he's in a cult
Not everyone that works at Lumon is in a cult, even if there's a lot of tension between cult/corporation in this show. Milchick is a company man in the old-school sense*, which means he's going to speak Lumon's language even if he's not 100% devoted to Kier. We have no indication what he thinks about the severance procedure, and he clearly did not share the feeling that the innies are less than human as Helena, Nat, Drummond (and Ms. Huang!) believe, or he wouldn't have enacted the reforms he did. He's just doing his best to do right by his employer. In the context of these people, he's not even particularly weird.
Maybe that will change- one thing this episode showed very clearly is that Seth Milchick is very much on his own** at the moment, with no support from above for his reforms, passive insubordination and snitching from Ms. Huang, and fury from MDR for erasing Irving. He gets zero affirmation from Natalie even when he asks for it directly. Feeling alone and ostracized is a great way to get people to be susceptible to brain washing. However I think right now Milchick is mostly just feeling extremely conflicted.
*In the context of corporate United States, the term was used to describe an implicit social contract that emerged in the 1950s, between a middle-class worker who was willing to sacrifice some measure of autonomy in return for a steady salary from their employer, along with benefits, bonuses, promotions, and a secure retirement.
** While Cobel and Milchick may not have been buddy-buddy, they at least had an understanding, and shared some personal issues with one another.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:11 PM on February 15 [4 favorites]
Not everyone that works at Lumon is in a cult, even if there's a lot of tension between cult/corporation in this show. Milchick is a company man in the old-school sense*, which means he's going to speak Lumon's language even if he's not 100% devoted to Kier. We have no indication what he thinks about the severance procedure, and he clearly did not share the feeling that the innies are less than human as Helena, Nat, Drummond (and Ms. Huang!) believe, or he wouldn't have enacted the reforms he did. He's just doing his best to do right by his employer. In the context of these people, he's not even particularly weird.
Maybe that will change- one thing this episode showed very clearly is that Seth Milchick is very much on his own** at the moment, with no support from above for his reforms, passive insubordination and snitching from Ms. Huang, and fury from MDR for erasing Irving. He gets zero affirmation from Natalie even when he asks for it directly. Feeling alone and ostracized is a great way to get people to be susceptible to brain washing. However I think right now Milchick is mostly just feeling extremely conflicted.
*In the context of corporate United States, the term was used to describe an implicit social contract that emerged in the 1950s, between a middle-class worker who was willing to sacrifice some measure of autonomy in return for a steady salary from their employer, along with benefits, bonuses, promotions, and a secure retirement.
** While Cobel and Milchick may not have been buddy-buddy, they at least had an understanding, and shared some personal issues with one another.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:11 PM on February 15 [4 favorites]
Miss Huang? Kind of a bitch. Her retort, "That was a question" to Milchick was cold.
posted by BeBoth at 4:28 PM on February 15 [2 favorites]
posted by BeBoth at 4:28 PM on February 15 [2 favorites]
O&D must be huge. They've got the resources to throw together a three-desk version of the cubicle suite overnight. They can do walls and pocket doors just as fast. They pump out carved watermelons and claymation animations like it's nothing. At the rate they do things, I'm betting Burt was 37 when he retired.
posted by WhackyparseThis at 9:09 PM on February 15 [6 favorites]
posted by WhackyparseThis at 9:09 PM on February 15 [6 favorites]
Recall at the beginning of the first episode that Milchick told Mark that they thought Cobel was possibly pursuing a “throuple” with Mark’s innie and outie. Now Mark has a somewhat romantic relationship with Helly R. and now has had sex with Helena. Kind of have a throuple going there, made real by an outie who saw her innie sharing a kiss with another innie.
Milchick told Mark it had been 5 months since the OTC. Burt, however, said Irving had come knocking like two nights ago. I don’t necessarily believe Milchick harbors malice towards the innies, but if he told me the sky was blue I’d have to go check to be sure. (Good lord, Trammell Tillman is just so damn good in this role.)
Do we know for sure that Milchick knows exactly what Cold Harbor entails if it’s successful? He’s managing the severed floor, but I wonder just how much he knows about whatever it is that Lumon is up to there.
posted by azpenguin at 10:25 PM on February 15 [2 favorites]
Milchick told Mark it had been 5 months since the OTC. Burt, however, said Irving had come knocking like two nights ago. I don’t necessarily believe Milchick harbors malice towards the innies, but if he told me the sky was blue I’d have to go check to be sure. (Good lord, Trammell Tillman is just so damn good in this role.)
Do we know for sure that Milchick knows exactly what Cold Harbor entails if it’s successful? He’s managing the severed floor, but I wonder just how much he knows about whatever it is that Lumon is up to there.
posted by azpenguin at 10:25 PM on February 15 [2 favorites]
Burt, however, said Irving had come knocking like two nights ago.
Also the show might be futzing with timelines. Irving and Dylan got fired, and then MarkS rejected the new team, and then Irving and Dylan got re-hired. They could be showing us a bit from the in-between when Irving had first been fired.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:46 AM on February 16 [1 favorite]
Also the show might be futzing with timelines. Irving and Dylan got fired, and then MarkS rejected the new team, and then Irving and Dylan got re-hired. They could be showing us a bit from the in-between when Irving had first been fired.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:46 AM on February 16 [1 favorite]
BeBoth: Miss Huang? Kind of a bitch.
Could we refrain from calling women "bitches," regardless of whether they're fictional or not? Especially adolescent girls? But really like... ever? I'm super-surprised this comment is still here.
posted by tzikeh at 7:30 AM on February 16 [13 favorites]
Could we refrain from calling women "bitches," regardless of whether they're fictional or not? Especially adolescent girls? But really like... ever? I'm super-surprised this comment is still here.
posted by tzikeh at 7:30 AM on February 16 [13 favorites]
Tzikeh, sure, understood. It was just my immediate reaction to what she said because I was a little surprised. I previously had clocked her as earnest and awkward, but not mean or consciously rude. Of course, one can be all of those things at different times. It's telling to me that Ms. Cobel, Mr. Melchick and now, Miss Huang are clearly not the nicest people.
posted by BeBoth at 8:37 AM on February 16
posted by BeBoth at 8:37 AM on February 16
Another "Trojan's Horse" element - along with all of oMark's reintegration pills regiment, he's got a series of small jars containing what looks to be cold congealed chicken noodle soup, which is clearly unpleasant to ingest. We also iMark conspicuously coughing a few times, in the office.
This being a TV show, no one can possibly cough without it being foreshadowing of tuberculosis or the like, hehe.. is part of the work with Regahbi to introduce biological contamination to the rest of the severed floor?
posted by FatherDagon at 9:17 AM on February 16 [1 favorite]
This being a TV show, no one can possibly cough without it being foreshadowing of tuberculosis or the like, hehe.. is part of the work with Regahbi to introduce biological contamination to the rest of the severed floor?
posted by FatherDagon at 9:17 AM on February 16 [1 favorite]
On “Trojan’s Horse” — it’s a little error that introduces thematically meaningful ambiguity into the phrase. The original Trojan Horse belonged to the Greeks — it was their ruse to smuggle soldiers into Troy. So the Trojan Horse was, in some sense, really the Greeks’ Horse. Referring to it as Trojan’s Horse is just a malapropism from Ricken, but it also implies that the Trojans are the ones in charge, not the ones being fooled — a double-cross?
From there one can start to ask things like…
- Ricken claims he’s smuggling radical ideas onto the Severed Floor under cover of corporate compliance. But it’s the reverse, right? Lumon is smuggling corporate compliance into the outside world using Ricken as a vehicle.
- All the innies are is carrying outies inside them and vice versa. Which is the horse and which is the soldier inside? For instance, when Helly thinks she’s in control, is Helena still watching? And when Helena is in the outside world, could she be carrying some secret sympathy for the innies? Outie Irv seems to be running some kind of mission; was his innie a Trojan Horse for his plans?
And so on and so forth.
Yeah it's this, not an error by the writers, lol.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:17 AM on February 16 [3 favorites]
From there one can start to ask things like…
- Ricken claims he’s smuggling radical ideas onto the Severed Floor under cover of corporate compliance. But it’s the reverse, right? Lumon is smuggling corporate compliance into the outside world using Ricken as a vehicle.
- All the innies are is carrying outies inside them and vice versa. Which is the horse and which is the soldier inside? For instance, when Helly thinks she’s in control, is Helena still watching? And when Helena is in the outside world, could she be carrying some secret sympathy for the innies? Outie Irv seems to be running some kind of mission; was his innie a Trojan Horse for his plans?
And so on and so forth.
Yeah it's this, not an error by the writers, lol.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:17 AM on February 16 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Popping in to say that calling anyone, either real or fiction, a bitch is inappropriate on MetaFilter, as noted in the Content policy (this is excluding contexts where folks who have reclaimed the word are using it in a manner that's relevant to their community):
“Avoid posting racial slurs or stereotypes; deliberately misgendering/misnaming others; questioning the existence and/or validity of trans identities as well as other racist, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, ableist or otherwise hateful speech.”
Since a member has pointed out the problem and the original writer seems to agree to not using that language, we see no reason to remove any comments now. But please, don’t do this; it may result in removing these types of comments in the future. s
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 11:31 AM on February 16 [10 favorites]
“Avoid posting racial slurs or stereotypes; deliberately misgendering/misnaming others; questioning the existence and/or validity of trans identities as well as other racist, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, ableist or otherwise hateful speech.”
Since a member has pointed out the problem and the original writer seems to agree to not using that language, we see no reason to remove any comments now. But please, don’t do this; it may result in removing these types of comments in the future. s
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 11:31 AM on February 16 [10 favorites]
Wouldn't it technically be Trojans' horse were it meant to be possessive and not Rickenese?
posted by Stanczyk at 12:15 PM on February 16
posted by Stanczyk at 12:15 PM on February 16
Rewatching the pilot (because why not)
Helly R: "Am I livestock?"
Mark S: "I'm sorry?"
Helly R: "Like... did you grow me as food and that's why I have no memories?"
Mark S: "You think we... grew a full human... gave you consciousness--"
Helly R: "I don't know!"
Did they literally tell us the plot in the pilot?
posted by tzikeh at 4:13 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
Helly R: "Am I livestock?"
Mark S: "I'm sorry?"
Helly R: "Like... did you grow me as food and that's why I have no memories?"
Mark S: "You think we... grew a full human... gave you consciousness--"
Helly R: "I don't know!"
Did they literally tell us the plot in the pilot?
posted by tzikeh at 4:13 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
I just rewatched this episode with subtitles. As was pointed out above, Mr. Drummond refers to Jame Eagan as “Father”, right after Natalie refers to him as “your father”. So Drummond is Helena’s brother? Half-brother?
I never put much stock in the “Ricken is an Eagan” theory, but now it occurs to me that Mr. Drummond kinda looks like Ricken.
posted by umber vowel at 8:42 PM on February 16
I never put much stock in the “Ricken is an Eagan” theory, but now it occurs to me that Mr. Drummond kinda looks like Ricken.
posted by umber vowel at 8:42 PM on February 16
I find it difficult to believe there will be a redemption arc for Milchick even if we see ways he’s recognizing that Lumon is hurtful to him. His comment to Mark S. about sleeping with Helena indicates he’s not at all interested in the real wellbeing of his direct reports. Also, given Mark S’s productivity because of everything Milchick has put him through, I suspect Milchick will (or at least could) make a case for his methods.
I do like the characterization of him as a company man rather than a member of the cult. I wonder which the powers that be would prefer?
posted by willF at 10:45 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
I do like the characterization of him as a company man rather than a member of the cult. I wonder which the powers that be would prefer?
posted by willF at 10:45 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
The explanation for Gemma's burnt corpse being a fake from Lumon's friends at the morgue combined with the extended dental tool sequence leads me to believe they are prepping a new dead body to match the dental records of someone else they want to bring in full-time. Irv would be my first bet, he's obviously trouble for Lumon out in the wild and could be stuck down wherever they've put Gemma.
posted by davejh at 1:26 AM on February 17 [6 favorites]
posted by davejh at 1:26 AM on February 17 [6 favorites]
I’m thinking the show is going to try and say something smart/comment on our current environment. Maybe that’s where AI fits in?MDR is model training for some AI to go into a resurrected body?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:24 AM on February 17
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:24 AM on February 17
The latest episode of Bullseye has a nice conversation with superb dancer Tramell Tillman (Milkshake).
posted by td2x10e3 at 1:15 PM on February 17 [1 favorite]
posted by td2x10e3 at 1:15 PM on February 17 [1 favorite]
Interesting contrast between Burt saying he was forced to retire for some bullshit reason vs. the pleasant retirement video he made for his co-workers. Maybe a nice farewell video is required in the employment agreement in order to get a nice retirement package.
posted by mikepop at 6:22 AM on February 18 [4 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 6:22 AM on February 18 [4 favorites]
is it Thursday yet
posted by tzikeh at 9:20 AM on February 18 [11 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 9:20 AM on February 18 [11 favorites]
Interesting contrast between Burt saying he was forced to retire for some bullshit reason vs. the pleasant retirement video he made for his co-workers. Maybe a nice farewell video is required in the employment agreement in order to get a nice retirement package.
Maybe they record it on their first day right after they record their consent video.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:37 AM on February 18 [1 favorite]
Maybe they record it on their first day right after they record their consent video.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:37 AM on February 18 [1 favorite]
I never put much stock in the “Ricken is an Eagan” theory
The best argument against this one I've seen is that they did it already in the season 1 finale. So here's my galaxy brain prediction: Ricken is Kier. Like, in the same way they're resurrecting Gemma, they already resurrected Kier ("The bad news is whatever humans can imagine they can usually create"), listened to him for five minutes and when his "brilliance" did not match their expectations concluded they had failed and scrapped him. Perhaps in much the same way Ricken is getting treated now, Kier's original tomes were edited to serve Lumon interests -- true power rests not with the author but with the editor.
posted by pwnguin at 10:09 AM on February 18 [2 favorites]
The best argument against this one I've seen is that they did it already in the season 1 finale. So here's my galaxy brain prediction: Ricken is Kier. Like, in the same way they're resurrecting Gemma, they already resurrected Kier ("The bad news is whatever humans can imagine they can usually create"), listened to him for five minutes and when his "brilliance" did not match their expectations concluded they had failed and scrapped him. Perhaps in much the same way Ricken is getting treated now, Kier's original tomes were edited to serve Lumon interests -- true power rests not with the author but with the editor.
posted by pwnguin at 10:09 AM on February 18 [2 favorites]
We've learned that Ricken has basically no income from the books he writes. Are they living fully on Devon's salary (do we know what she does?), or is there family money from Ricken? I don't think he's an Eagan, and while it's entertaining to imagine him as a Fail!Kier, I don't think Eagans would be propping him up financially. I don't think Mark and Devon have any kind of generational wealth, so how are Ricken and Devon (and Eleanor) managing to get by? Maybe Devon does have a job and she's just on extended maternity leave, but I don't think we know anything about it, do we?
posted by tzikeh at 12:27 PM on February 18 [1 favorite]
posted by tzikeh at 12:27 PM on February 18 [1 favorite]
Ricken strikes me as someone who made money in a previous career and then switched to his true passion, self-help books. Maybe he was early enough at a tech company? I think it would be very pat and even suffocating to tie him into the Eagan family.
posted by migurski at 12:40 PM on February 18 [4 favorites]
posted by migurski at 12:40 PM on February 18 [4 favorites]
Ricken is not an Eagen. It wouldn’t make any narrative sense.
Also, Milchik has all the signs of a true believer cult member. The forced equinimity, the stilted in-group speak. I think he’s starting to question things a little: the leadership looks less all-knowing and all-powerful to him after experiencing the mistake that those paintings were and how Kier policies and precepts are not successfully controlling the workers, and getting the blame for that must be frustrating and could be breeding resentment.
These days I think experts more often refer to cults as high demand groups or high control groups because everything they do, discouraging displays of emotion, separating people from family and outsiders, making people learn things that don't make sense so they stop trusting their own judgment, blaming victims, collecting compromot (like those confession statements) etc, are designed to keep people obedient to the leadership. Milchik is not far along enough in questioning to have stopped doing these behaviors, so he is gaslighting Mark by trying to make him feel responsible for the hook up with Helena, when he knows Mark was being deceived.
posted by antinomia at 1:43 PM on February 18 [2 favorites]
Also, Milchik has all the signs of a true believer cult member. The forced equinimity, the stilted in-group speak. I think he’s starting to question things a little: the leadership looks less all-knowing and all-powerful to him after experiencing the mistake that those paintings were and how Kier policies and precepts are not successfully controlling the workers, and getting the blame for that must be frustrating and could be breeding resentment.
These days I think experts more often refer to cults as high demand groups or high control groups because everything they do, discouraging displays of emotion, separating people from family and outsiders, making people learn things that don't make sense so they stop trusting their own judgment, blaming victims, collecting compromot (like those confession statements) etc, are designed to keep people obedient to the leadership. Milchik is not far along enough in questioning to have stopped doing these behaviors, so he is gaslighting Mark by trying to make him feel responsible for the hook up with Helena, when he knows Mark was being deceived.
posted by antinomia at 1:43 PM on February 18 [2 favorites]
Maybe Devon does have a job and she's just on extended maternity leave, but I don't think we know anything about it, do we?
First, no we don’t know anything about Devon’s job, we have no reason to think she’s unemployed.
Second, I know it has been years for us from the beginning of the show until now but it’s been what, a little more than a quarter (3ish months) max in show-time from the beginning of the show until now. If she is on maternity leave, there’s nothing extended about it.
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:28 PM on February 18 [5 favorites]
First, no we don’t know anything about Devon’s job, we have no reason to think she’s unemployed.
Second, I know it has been years for us from the beginning of the show until now but it’s been what, a little more than a quarter (3ish months) max in show-time from the beginning of the show until now. If she is on maternity leave, there’s nothing extended about it.
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:28 PM on February 18 [5 favorites]
I think one way Mark could reestablish trust with Helly would be to confirm some details that only Helly would know. For example, when she wrote on her arms in the bathroom to try and get past the code detectors. Or he could ask what she spit out into his hand. Then again, maybe he is so traumatized that he thinks they even have cameras in the bathrooms.
Somewhat surprised he is not divulging to Devon that he knows Gemma is alive, but then he'd have to tell he is attempting reintegration which she might try talk him out of due to the danger.
posted by mikepop at 7:01 AM on February 19
Somewhat surprised he is not divulging to Devon that he knows Gemma is alive, but then he'd have to tell he is attempting reintegration which she might try talk him out of due to the danger.
posted by mikepop at 7:01 AM on February 19
Yeah, I'm sure Mark's played that one out in his head: "Hey sis, I watched somebody kill a man in front of me, but don't worry, that same person told me that Gemma is alive, and now I'm letting her live in my basement and subject me to highly experimental treatments that also killed somebody in the prior attempt."
Also, considering they're being spied upon, it's probably good that he's not discussing this with her, at least in terms of Lumon not catching on. Good for his health, maybe not so much, haha.
posted by destructive cactus at 7:26 AM on February 19 [3 favorites]
Also, considering they're being spied upon, it's probably good that he's not discussing this with her, at least in terms of Lumon not catching on. Good for his health, maybe not so much, haha.
posted by destructive cactus at 7:26 AM on February 19 [3 favorites]
Ricken was born on stage in front of an audience "as part of a nine-month performance art piece originated by my parents" - that's from The You You Are so I think it's canon.
posted by simonw at 9:59 AM on February 19 [4 favorites]
posted by simonw at 9:59 AM on February 19 [4 favorites]
On rewatch:
The symmetrical bomb-dropping by Dylan ("you two catch up?") and then Milchick ("did you and Helly R. catch up?").
Patriarchy and agency: we saw from the Perpetuity Wing that Lumon has had female CEOs: Myrtle, Leonora. But under Jame it feels very patriarchal: he is the formal "Father" whose word is law. Father says that Helena is to go be her innie again; Helena has no say in this, has no agency over how her body is used: "we must give him her." And conversely on the inside, Helly is also outraged by the violation of her agency: "stealing my fucking body", "she doesn't have the right to take my identity."
I think Drummond's use of "Father" is not a reveal that he's an Eagan -- the show has so far been very clear that it is Helena that is the next-in-line; I think it's more an acknowledgement of Jame's patriarchal power. Drummond is an agent of Jame, an extension of his will; when he uses "Father" he is speaking for him with the full weight of the patriarchy behind him.
tzikeh's pull of "am I livestock?" from the pilot episode vs. Helena's "they're fucking animals" here: oh, that's good. And this episode is crystallizing just how Lumon see the innies as lesser things: Ms. Huang'squestion opinion that Milchick should not "make them feel like people"; Drummond telling him to "treat them as what they really are."
Drummond tells Helena that "the work is mysterious and important" line to Helena and ... it's surely not mysterious to them? They know what MDR do, and what Cold Harbor is, and why it's important; the "mysterious and important" line is what they tell the innies to make them feel like they have purpose. I feel Drummond using it to Helena is deliberately emphasizing again to her that she does not have agency: she will be an innie because that's what Father decreed. They're sending her in to give her to Mark: in Jame's view, she is livestock.
The mirror shot in the bathroom is still amazing, but also notice: in all the other shots of Helly and Mark talking, one of them is obscured. Blurred in the foreground, or partway behind a wall in the background. They're not seeing each other clearly any more.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:59 AM on February 19 [8 favorites]
The symmetrical bomb-dropping by Dylan ("you two catch up?") and then Milchick ("did you and Helly R. catch up?").
Patriarchy and agency: we saw from the Perpetuity Wing that Lumon has had female CEOs: Myrtle, Leonora. But under Jame it feels very patriarchal: he is the formal "Father" whose word is law. Father says that Helena is to go be her innie again; Helena has no say in this, has no agency over how her body is used: "we must give him her." And conversely on the inside, Helly is also outraged by the violation of her agency: "stealing my fucking body", "she doesn't have the right to take my identity."
I think Drummond's use of "Father" is not a reveal that he's an Eagan -- the show has so far been very clear that it is Helena that is the next-in-line; I think it's more an acknowledgement of Jame's patriarchal power. Drummond is an agent of Jame, an extension of his will; when he uses "Father" he is speaking for him with the full weight of the patriarchy behind him.
tzikeh's pull of "am I livestock?" from the pilot episode vs. Helena's "they're fucking animals" here: oh, that's good. And this episode is crystallizing just how Lumon see the innies as lesser things: Ms. Huang's
Drummond tells Helena that "the work is mysterious and important" line to Helena and ... it's surely not mysterious to them? They know what MDR do, and what Cold Harbor is, and why it's important; the "mysterious and important" line is what they tell the innies to make them feel like they have purpose. I feel Drummond using it to Helena is deliberately emphasizing again to her that she does not have agency: she will be an innie because that's what Father decreed. They're sending her in to give her to Mark: in Jame's view, she is livestock.
The mirror shot in the bathroom is still amazing, but also notice: in all the other shots of Helly and Mark talking, one of them is obscured. Blurred in the foreground, or partway behind a wall in the background. They're not seeing each other clearly any more.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:59 AM on February 19 [8 favorites]
I've always wondered why the MDR "department" had such a big room with just the four refiners. My working theory now is that the room formerly held multiple desk pods, but that most people were just not very good. The short-lived replacement refiners reveal that they "never" hit quota. So maybe the department started with sixteen refiners but over time they realized the overhead of managing so many people was giving diminishing returns and so they kept paring it down until they had the best set of refiners available. Dylan seems efficient, earning all the perks. Irving has been around a long time and has(had) dedication so perhaps had good output despite occasionally napping. We don't know about Petey, but he was the head of the team and trained Mark so presumably he was pretty good at least. And Mark of course is the "freshman fluke" prodigy. The fact that they pulled everyone back after the OTC incident just to keep him refining says that they would be happy with just him sitting in that room working if they could get away with it.
posted by mikepop at 1:11 PM on February 19 [4 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 1:11 PM on February 19 [4 favorites]
Also, Milchik has all the signs of a true believer cult member. The forced equinimity, the stilted in-group speak.
I disagree, so far. These two attributes are 100% middle manager behaviors as well. What we don't yet see in Milchick is the belief that Kier is infallible & correct at all times- a vital component for a cult member.
Unlike Harmony Cobel, we have yet to see any cultish behavior from Milchick that cannot also be explained by his devotion to the company. Ben Stiller, Adam Scott, Dan Erickson and Tramell Tillman have all repeatedly described Milchick as a "company man" in various podcasts and interviews. Severance plays with the tension between corporate culture and cult, and Milchick, as a manager trying to make reforms to help the corporation, is coming into conflict with the cult running the company. If you're a company woman or man, you put the company's goals first, and Milchick's efforts to make MDR a more cohesive and productive group of workers in order to be more efficient and benefit the company go directly against the Kier cult belief that Innies are not real people. It's such a core belief that Ms. Huang is compelled to contradict her superior even though she's not even half his age, but it's not a belief of Seth Milchick.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, and we'll see some actual signs in future episodes that Seth Milchick is a true believer in the cult of Kier- like Cobel's shrine; or Milchick deciding that the leader is correct at all times, and therefore he needs to get over the racist paintings he was given and the dismissal of the Innies' humanity. But I think what we're actually seeing is the widening of that gap in belief systems as Milchick is reminded more and more regularly that he is not like the other non-severed people running Lumon.
...which leaves me wondering if Milchick's confrontation of Mark in the elevator isn't Milchick deciding to sow some seeds of chaos in order to sabotage Cold Harbor.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:58 PM on February 19 [5 favorites]
I disagree, so far. These two attributes are 100% middle manager behaviors as well. What we don't yet see in Milchick is the belief that Kier is infallible & correct at all times- a vital component for a cult member.
Unlike Harmony Cobel, we have yet to see any cultish behavior from Milchick that cannot also be explained by his devotion to the company. Ben Stiller, Adam Scott, Dan Erickson and Tramell Tillman have all repeatedly described Milchick as a "company man" in various podcasts and interviews. Severance plays with the tension between corporate culture and cult, and Milchick, as a manager trying to make reforms to help the corporation, is coming into conflict with the cult running the company. If you're a company woman or man, you put the company's goals first, and Milchick's efforts to make MDR a more cohesive and productive group of workers in order to be more efficient and benefit the company go directly against the Kier cult belief that Innies are not real people. It's such a core belief that Ms. Huang is compelled to contradict her superior even though she's not even half his age, but it's not a belief of Seth Milchick.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, and we'll see some actual signs in future episodes that Seth Milchick is a true believer in the cult of Kier- like Cobel's shrine; or Milchick deciding that the leader is correct at all times, and therefore he needs to get over the racist paintings he was given and the dismissal of the Innies' humanity. But I think what we're actually seeing is the widening of that gap in belief systems as Milchick is reminded more and more regularly that he is not like the other non-severed people running Lumon.
...which leaves me wondering if Milchick's confrontation of Mark in the elevator isn't Milchick deciding to sow some seeds of chaos in order to sabotage Cold Harbor.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:58 PM on February 19 [5 favorites]
I don't get why Milchick invents the fiction that outie Irving is on an "Elongated Cruise Voyage". Attempted drowning is a pretty good reason not to invite someone back without pretending the outie was rewarded for some reason. I bet "elongated" was in Milchick's performance review word cloud though.
posted by mikepop at 8:18 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 8:18 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]
From the general theories and nonsense desk: Pardon me while I spin off into the , ahem, ether ---
1- the extremely wealthy founders are obsessed with "perpetuity"
2- is Cold Harbor (nice pun on a corpse, there?) some sort of reincarnation/stasis/personality implantation project?
3- they have some technology that allows the instantiation of identities. I'd wager they do not fully understand its limitations and are experimenting to find out.
4- Do they think that they can instantiate an *external* identity in a host?
5- Who and what the heck is Ms Huang? "Why are you a child?" "Because of when I was born." Possibly this is the only reason she resembles a child? Is she a prototype?
6- If you somehow had a dataset that represented a personality and you were obsessive about the 4 humors or whatever we're calling them here, maybe part of your information preparation (or macrodata refinement, if you will) would involve sorting that info.
Whoooeeeee it is exciting out here.
posted by aesop at 8:23 AM on February 20
1- the extremely wealthy founders are obsessed with "perpetuity"
2- is Cold Harbor (nice pun on a corpse, there?) some sort of reincarnation/stasis/personality implantation project?
3- they have some technology that allows the instantiation of identities. I'd wager they do not fully understand its limitations and are experimenting to find out.
4- Do they think that they can instantiate an *external* identity in a host?
5- Who and what the heck is Ms Huang? "Why are you a child?" "Because of when I was born." Possibly this is the only reason she resembles a child? Is she a prototype?
6- If you somehow had a dataset that represented a personality and you were obsessive about the 4 humors or whatever we're calling them here, maybe part of your information preparation (or macrodata refinement, if you will) would involve sorting that info.
Whoooeeeee it is exciting out here.
posted by aesop at 8:23 AM on February 20
I saw a white VW Rabbit at a stop sign just now and peered at it. Harmony?
I'm thinking MDR used to be a bigger department in that same room, but 1) they weren't making progress, and possibly 2) maybe having a ton of people was bad for focus/concentration. The workplace is designed to be placid and minimal without distraction -- workers aren't allowed to wear branded clothing, even -- that I wonder if it has something to do with distilling their thoughts/emotions as purely as possible?
I'm warming up to the idea of there being a third state of being:
- There's a Lumon logo animation where identical logos in red, blue, and green join together to create a white logo.
- When they open the supply cabinet in S2E1 the paper inside is red, blue, and green.
- When MDR watches the claymation video, the camera lingers on the projector gels: red, blue, green.
If blue is innie, red is outtie, what is green?
posted by mochapickle at 10:43 AM on February 20
I'm thinking MDR used to be a bigger department in that same room, but 1) they weren't making progress, and possibly 2) maybe having a ton of people was bad for focus/concentration. The workplace is designed to be placid and minimal without distraction -- workers aren't allowed to wear branded clothing, even -- that I wonder if it has something to do with distilling their thoughts/emotions as purely as possible?
I'm warming up to the idea of there being a third state of being:
- There's a Lumon logo animation where identical logos in red, blue, and green join together to create a white logo.
- When they open the supply cabinet in S2E1 the paper inside is red, blue, and green.
- When MDR watches the claymation video, the camera lingers on the projector gels: red, blue, green.
If blue is innie, red is outtie, what is green?
posted by mochapickle at 10:43 AM on February 20
I'm thinking MDR used to be a bigger department in that same room
IIRC Dylan explains in season 1 that there's all this empty office space because they planned to make the severed teams bigger but it never panned out. But then this season we met some MDRs from "branch 5x" or whatever, so who knows what the actual story is.
posted by pwnguin at 1:14 PM on February 20
IIRC Dylan explains in season 1 that there's all this empty office space because they planned to make the severed teams bigger but it never panned out. But then this season we met some MDRs from "branch 5x" or whatever, so who knows what the actual story is.
posted by pwnguin at 1:14 PM on February 20
I think one way Mark could reestablish trust with Helly would be to confirm some details that only Helly would know.I actually saw someone comment on this re: Irving in the ORTBO, where he greeted her with "Hey kid," and she failed to respond, "What's for dinner?"
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:30 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]
I am very worried about Mark’s cough. Peter was coughing too, wasn’t he?
posted by rednikki at 4:17 AM on February 21
posted by rednikki at 4:17 AM on February 21
I actually saw someone comment on this re: Irving in the ORTBO, where he greeted her with "Hey kid," and she failed to respond, "What's for dinner?"
That would be oneirodynia right here in this thread
posted by LizBoBiz at 9:03 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
That would be oneirodynia right here in this thread
posted by LizBoBiz at 9:03 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
If blue is innie, red is outtie, what is green?
OMG. I'm really dubious about whether they should, but from a narrative consistency standpoint, they absolutely could introduce 4 new characters who are a third personality of each of the severed characters that have been doing stuff unseen by us all along. They could have had the blue innies and the green innies working every other day this entire time.
It might be one of the ideas the writers have in their back pocket depending on whether it looks like they're going to get three seasons or six.
posted by straight at 3:38 PM on March 2 [1 favorite]
OMG. I'm really dubious about whether they should, but from a narrative consistency standpoint, they absolutely could introduce 4 new characters who are a third personality of each of the severed characters that have been doing stuff unseen by us all along. They could have had the blue innies and the green innies working every other day this entire time.
It might be one of the ideas the writers have in their back pocket depending on whether it looks like they're going to get three seasons or six.
posted by straight at 3:38 PM on March 2 [1 favorite]
If they hadn't named the episode "Trojan's Horse," I would never have noticed that incredible joke caricaturing the guy who thinks he's way more educated than he actually is. It is a perfect and very funny line for Ricken.
But all the ideas ourobouros suggested about who's tricking whom are pretty great too.
And the parallelism with "Woe's Hollow" Gary noted is just the [chef's kiss]. (It's good enough that they might have thought of the Trojan's Horse joke first and chose the name for Woe's Hollow just to match it.)
I love these Fanfare threads. Y'all are making an already great show even better by pointing out so many great things that I've missed. Thanks, everybody!
posted by straight at 3:45 PM on March 2 [1 favorite]
But all the ideas ourobouros suggested about who's tricking whom are pretty great too.
And the parallelism with "Woe's Hollow" Gary noted is just the [chef's kiss]. (It's good enough that they might have thought of the Trojan's Horse joke first and chose the name for Woe's Hollow just to match it.)
I love these Fanfare threads. Y'all are making an already great show even better by pointing out so many great things that I've missed. Thanks, everybody!
posted by straight at 3:45 PM on March 2 [1 favorite]
He gets zero affirmation from Natalie even when he asks for it directly.
She doesn't give him any affirmation, but she also doesn't (here or earlier) give the slightest affirmation of what The Board said about how much she liked the paintings.
Natalie doesn't seem to hold quite the same superior attitude over Milcheck as she did with Ms. Cobel (like her smug satisfaction of informing Cobel that The Board had hung up while Cobel was talking).
posted by straight at 8:50 PM on March 4 [1 favorite]
She doesn't give him any affirmation, but she also doesn't (here or earlier) give the slightest affirmation of what The Board said about how much she liked the paintings.
Natalie doesn't seem to hold quite the same superior attitude over Milcheck as she did with Ms. Cobel (like her smug satisfaction of informing Cobel that The Board had hung up while Cobel was talking).
posted by straight at 8:50 PM on March 4 [1 favorite]
I'm calling my new band "Outie! at the ORTBO"
posted by redfoxtail at 11:36 AM on March 8 [3 favorites]
posted by redfoxtail at 11:36 AM on March 8 [3 favorites]
On rewatch, I love the way Helena is stroppy in the meeting with Drummond and Natalie - it seems a bit of Helly rubbed off on her during her adventures underground.
Also, on this rewatch, I'm aware of Natalie and Drummond as a reflective pair (for example, the way Natalie preceding Jame into the bathroom in S1E9 was echoed by Drummond preceding him in the "Fetid moppet" meeting) - they're nice and nasty variants of the same function.
Also, there are lots of triads in the show, but one example is the meeting here with Helena, Natalie and Drummond.
posted by Grangousier at 11:42 AM on March 20
Also, on this rewatch, I'm aware of Natalie and Drummond as a reflective pair (for example, the way Natalie preceding Jame into the bathroom in S1E9 was echoed by Drummond preceding him in the "Fetid moppet" meeting) - they're nice and nasty variants of the same function.
Also, there are lots of triads in the show, but one example is the meeting here with Helena, Natalie and Drummond.
posted by Grangousier at 11:42 AM on March 20
Something I'm unclear on - We, like Mark, assume that "Helena told them everything we're doing", but we've not seen any evidence that that's the case. I wonder whether her emotion on boarding the elevator was disappointment that she didn't get to escape her shame as Helly, and whether on some level she might not already be aligned with the crazy kids of MDR.
posted by Grangousier at 12:09 PM on March 20
posted by Grangousier at 12:09 PM on March 20
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Mr Drummond referred to Jame as father.
From Minute One we were reminded who Helly is. (Which just reinforced my pissiness that only Irving saw through FakeHelly.)
Helena watching Mark leave work.
Girl, you're an Eagan, go find somebody else.
But g*dammit, they're making us feel a little sorry for her and Seth.
Young Miss Huang already indoctrinated into thinking innies aren't people, Ricken is selling out his BIL, Jame Eagan would sacrifice his own daughter, and Milchick is thought to be too soft on the innies? This place is almost as effed up as real life.
posted by NorthernLite at 8:36 PM on February 13 [8 favorites]