Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Who You Really Are
March 10, 2015 9:55 PM - Season 2, Episode 12 - Subscribe
This week on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: The story of an angel who fell to Earth and tried to kill Skye with a sword, leaving us all to wonder...why are her clothes boring now?
recap from Tor.com
recap from Tor.com
Sounds like a...CIVIL WAR!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:25 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:25 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Eddie McClintock is making the guest star rounds recently. I'd love for him to become a recurring role on SHIELD.
Simmons reaction to the Inhumans felt too extreme too quickly, and now that her friend is one she's all wishy washy. It all feels too contrived, like they needed this internal fighting and shoehorned her into it.
I'm glad they haven't made us wait too long for reveals. Everyone knows about Skye after 1 episode. And we'll hopefully know about Bobbi and Mack next week. I'm really hoping (and expecting) that they're working for some other good guy. Even then, when Coulson finds out that two of his closest agents and advisers are once again undercover spies, it's going to destroy him.
Overall, the writing, dialogue, and acting in this episode felt a little off. Thankfully we had Eddie McClintock and Jaimie Alexander to make up for it.
posted by 2ht at 7:32 AM on March 11, 2015
Simmons reaction to the Inhumans felt too extreme too quickly, and now that her friend is one she's all wishy washy. It all feels too contrived, like they needed this internal fighting and shoehorned her into it.
I'm glad they haven't made us wait too long for reveals. Everyone knows about Skye after 1 episode. And we'll hopefully know about Bobbi and Mack next week. I'm really hoping (and expecting) that they're working for some other good guy. Even then, when Coulson finds out that two of his closest agents and advisers are once again undercover spies, it's going to destroy him.
Overall, the writing, dialogue, and acting in this episode felt a little off. Thankfully we had Eddie McClintock and Jaimie Alexander to make up for it.
posted by 2ht at 7:32 AM on March 11, 2015
So, I thoroughly enjoyed the A plot of this episode, but it was carried by two fantastic guest stars. (And Line Of The Week has to be explicitly describing the Kree as "tried something at the Willy Wonka factory blue".)
But Mack? Just been a reactionary dumbass the last two episodes. I mean, that "you need to push him away if you ever want a chance for the relationship to work in the future..." advice to Bobbi, really, Mack? Which daytime soap opera did you glean that bit of wisdom from? And then going from yelling at Fitz (his pal Fitz!) about how bad keeping secrets is to knocking out Lance for being onto his secret in like, the very next scene. If this is a foretaste of Civil War, Civil War may be where I end up getting of the MCU bandwagon. Because so far, just like in mightygodking's excellent analysis that I've linked to before, instead of "an ideological conflict that sets them at odds with no real “right” or “wrong”..." we get a couple characters turned into colossal douchebags.
Kudos to Lance to for seeing through that BS immediately, at least. And maybe this won't end up being Civil War related at all, because even after they stash Lance with their employer or someplace next episode and tell Coulson and the others the thoroughly predictable "Oh he decided not to take the permanent job after all, left without saying goodbye" lie, it still seems like it's going to be hard to draw this plot out long enough for Age of Ultron to hit theaters, let alone Civil War (and it'll be dreadful, if they try).
Anyways, things I would love to see happen next:
a.) after finding out Mack knocked out Tripp and wants to stash him somewhere, Bobbi decides the cost to SHIELD of this little operation is getting too high and decides to pull the plug on it. I mean, FFS, she's Mockingbird.
b.) It turns out Coulson has known about and been keeping an eye on their little "conspiracy" the whole time and when they try to disappear Lance he calls them on their shit because letting them having their little secret spy games working for Stark or whoever is one thing, but he needs the damn manpower.
c.) at the very least, Bobbi should be not accepting of this and Coulson needs to not just uncritically accept the "Oh Lance left without saying goodbye" lie, or I will end up demonstrating a superpower where I roll my eyes so hard it causes atmospheric disturbances.
posted by mstokes650 at 7:57 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
But Mack? Just been a reactionary dumbass the last two episodes. I mean, that "you need to push him away if you ever want a chance for the relationship to work in the future..." advice to Bobbi, really, Mack? Which daytime soap opera did you glean that bit of wisdom from? And then going from yelling at Fitz (his pal Fitz!) about how bad keeping secrets is to knocking out Lance for being onto his secret in like, the very next scene. If this is a foretaste of Civil War, Civil War may be where I end up getting of the MCU bandwagon. Because so far, just like in mightygodking's excellent analysis that I've linked to before, instead of "an ideological conflict that sets them at odds with no real “right” or “wrong”..." we get a couple characters turned into colossal douchebags.
Kudos to Lance to for seeing through that BS immediately, at least. And maybe this won't end up being Civil War related at all, because even after they stash Lance with their employer or someplace next episode and tell Coulson and the others the thoroughly predictable "Oh he decided not to take the permanent job after all, left without saying goodbye" lie, it still seems like it's going to be hard to draw this plot out long enough for Age of Ultron to hit theaters, let alone Civil War (and it'll be dreadful, if they try).
Anyways, things I would love to see happen next:
a.) after finding out Mack knocked out Tripp and wants to stash him somewhere, Bobbi decides the cost to SHIELD of this little operation is getting too high and decides to pull the plug on it. I mean, FFS, she's Mockingbird.
b.) It turns out Coulson has known about and been keeping an eye on their little "conspiracy" the whole time and when they try to disappear Lance he calls them on their shit because letting them having their little secret spy games working for Stark or whoever is one thing, but he needs the damn manpower.
c.) at the very least, Bobbi should be not accepting of this and Coulson needs to not just uncritically accept the "Oh Lance left without saying goodbye" lie, or I will end up demonstrating a superpower where I roll my eyes so hard it causes atmospheric disturbances.
posted by mstokes650 at 7:57 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
There was the Fitz/Simmons division on "Inhumans are fucked up!"/"You're being too harsh", but there was also the bit about how they were going to redesign the ICE weapon to be more effective vs 'isn't that more dangerous', which I was more intruiged by because it was less ham-handed.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:35 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 8:35 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I highly doubt that Civil War -- whatever form it ends up taking in Cap 3 -- will be dealing at all with the inter/intra-organizational reindeer games that Bobbi/Mack are caught up in. Cap 2 was all about how SHIELD became compromised, so we've already been there and done that.
I suspect that the Inhumans storyline will have much more bearing on Civil War, since we now have the potential to have significantly more unsupervised/unsanctioned superhumans running around.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:37 AM on March 11, 2015
I suspect that the Inhumans storyline will have much more bearing on Civil War, since we now have the potential to have significantly more unsupervised/unsanctioned superhumans running around.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:37 AM on March 11, 2015
Simmons reaction to the Inhumans felt too extreme too quickly, and now that her friend is one she's all wishy washy.
I thought her denial about her knee-jerk reaction also applying to Skye was quite reasonable. She's either going to be fully hypocritical about her bigotry - no it's different with Skye she's One of the Good Ones - or she's in denial about how it impacts her perception of her friend.
Any of that seems entirely consistent with someone afraid of the unknown/prejudice. I think, if anything, they nicely avoided being too on the nose and having her suddenly see her outlook as simplistic and awful when she recognizes it in the Kree and Asgardian outlook on these folks.
posted by phearlez at 9:21 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I thought her denial about her knee-jerk reaction also applying to Skye was quite reasonable. She's either going to be fully hypocritical about her bigotry - no it's different with Skye she's One of the Good Ones - or she's in denial about how it impacts her perception of her friend.
Any of that seems entirely consistent with someone afraid of the unknown/prejudice. I think, if anything, they nicely avoided being too on the nose and having her suddenly see her outlook as simplistic and awful when she recognizes it in the Kree and Asgardian outlook on these folks.
posted by phearlez at 9:21 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
"you need to push him away if you ever want a chance for the relationship to work in the future..." advice to Bobbi, really, Mack?
Really! Her choice is to continue lying to Lance (when they're relationship is at its best), over something team dividing or push him so Lance won't be around to see what she does. It makes sense in the "highly trained spy on secret mission" sort of way.
Remember Mack reminded Bobbi how they felt when their friends turned out to be Hydra? When those two reveal themselves to the rest of the team, it's going to hurt the others (especially after the Hydra flacso) and Mack's suggestion is a practical, if somewhat twisted way, of trying to avoid that pain for Bobbi and Lance.
The one odd moment was that previously Bobbie seemed to be in charge of the duo, while this episode it seems Mack is. Not a big deal, but a little strange.
I suspect that the Inhumans storyline will have much more bearing on Civil War, since we now have the potential to have significantly more unsupervised/unsanctioned superhumans running around.
The Inhumans storyline and inter/intra agency stuff are mixed together, IMO. Note how the team reacted to rahina and then Skye, particularly Simmons. The former she more or less wants put down, especially after she saw how Rahina slaughtered people and was able to withstand gunfire (also, it was awesome to see Simmons handling herself in the field again). Naturally, she feels differently about Skye, her friend and teammate. Which doesn't mean she's all hugs, but frankly Skye is dangerous. She and Fritz risked their friends to protect that secret and it wouldn't be surprising if grudges were held.
At this point, Bobbi and Mack are probably working for Stark, who doesn't trust the Coulson coming back from the dead and running what was a Hydra infested SHIELD. Let alone, Coulson hasn't reached out to any of the Avengers at all. So there's mistrust all around. Now he's hiding a human who was given superpowers? And has Fury's Toolbox? Yeah, I can see major arguments ahead.
Overall though, I'm still amazed by how excellent this season is. It's tightly scripted, with sharply drawn and interesting characters mixed with various interesting plots. After 12 episodes, I'm still "damnit, why I do have to wait a week for the next one?!" It's great that they're not hoarding secrets either. Skye's powers are coming out and it would have been ridiculous if the others were keep in the dark for the rest of the season.
Anyway, here's what Agent Carter thinks of this episode!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:37 AM on March 11, 2015
Really! Her choice is to continue lying to Lance (when they're relationship is at its best), over something team dividing or push him so Lance won't be around to see what she does. It makes sense in the "highly trained spy on secret mission" sort of way.
Remember Mack reminded Bobbi how they felt when their friends turned out to be Hydra? When those two reveal themselves to the rest of the team, it's going to hurt the others (especially after the Hydra flacso) and Mack's suggestion is a practical, if somewhat twisted way, of trying to avoid that pain for Bobbi and Lance.
The one odd moment was that previously Bobbie seemed to be in charge of the duo, while this episode it seems Mack is. Not a big deal, but a little strange.
I suspect that the Inhumans storyline will have much more bearing on Civil War, since we now have the potential to have significantly more unsupervised/unsanctioned superhumans running around.
The Inhumans storyline and inter/intra agency stuff are mixed together, IMO. Note how the team reacted to rahina and then Skye, particularly Simmons. The former she more or less wants put down, especially after she saw how Rahina slaughtered people and was able to withstand gunfire (also, it was awesome to see Simmons handling herself in the field again). Naturally, she feels differently about Skye, her friend and teammate. Which doesn't mean she's all hugs, but frankly Skye is dangerous. She and Fritz risked their friends to protect that secret and it wouldn't be surprising if grudges were held.
At this point, Bobbi and Mack are probably working for Stark, who doesn't trust the Coulson coming back from the dead and running what was a Hydra infested SHIELD. Let alone, Coulson hasn't reached out to any of the Avengers at all. So there's mistrust all around. Now he's hiding a human who was given superpowers? And has Fury's Toolbox? Yeah, I can see major arguments ahead.
Overall though, I'm still amazed by how excellent this season is. It's tightly scripted, with sharply drawn and interesting characters mixed with various interesting plots. After 12 episodes, I'm still "damnit, why I do have to wait a week for the next one?!" It's great that they're not hoarding secrets either. Skye's powers are coming out and it would have been ridiculous if the others were keep in the dark for the rest of the season.
Anyway, here's what Agent Carter thinks of this episode!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:37 AM on March 11, 2015
I refuse to believe Agent Carter would mix up loose/lose.
posted by phearlez at 10:11 AM on March 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 10:11 AM on March 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I enjoyed this a lot more than I thought I would considering the plot line - most of this is due to the fact that amnesiac Sif is still Sif. The tension, well, I like it in theory, but it seems a little heavy handed. This was one of the first episodes where I found myself caring about Skye, though.
The Fitz vs. Simmons thing didn't bother me that much - prejudice doesn't make logical sense, and Simmons being reactionary makes a lot of sense for her character. I liked May's reaction to Skye's powers. But the actual 'get everyone in the room and yell about it' scene could have been a lot more subtle and still worked very well.
I also didn't have an issue with Mack warning Bobbi away from Hunter - Bobbi and Hunter have a difficult history, and the first rule of being part of the super secret double agent club is don't tell people about super secret double agent club. If they can get away with not having to take the risk of telling Hunter, it makes sense to not take that risk. But Mack choking Hunter once Hunter confronts him rather than letting him in - that part didn't make sense to me. He now knows that he looks like they're dirty, and they're in a situation where a little knowledge it potentially more damaging than the whole story. Why not take the chance to tell him everything then? If he reacted badly, Mack could have still put him in a sleeper hold, and they'd be in the exact same situation.
I'm hoping that it'll be spelled out as a case of him panicking next episode, and that Mack will still be a mostly-good guy who is possibly working for Stark or the Avengers. But it really depends on what happens next as to whether or not they can still pull that off.
I have a coworker who frequently has wrong opinions on nerd things - one of which is her insistence that Grant Ward was a more interesting character before he turned evil than afterward. I mean, clearly wrong, right? But I'm kind of feeling the same way about Mack now - he's a lot more interested as the conflicted double agent who is kind to Fitz than he is as someone who is hurt and distrustful and looking to take down the group.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:15 AM on March 11, 2015
The Fitz vs. Simmons thing didn't bother me that much - prejudice doesn't make logical sense, and Simmons being reactionary makes a lot of sense for her character. I liked May's reaction to Skye's powers. But the actual 'get everyone in the room and yell about it' scene could have been a lot more subtle and still worked very well.
I also didn't have an issue with Mack warning Bobbi away from Hunter - Bobbi and Hunter have a difficult history, and the first rule of being part of the super secret double agent club is don't tell people about super secret double agent club. If they can get away with not having to take the risk of telling Hunter, it makes sense to not take that risk. But Mack choking Hunter once Hunter confronts him rather than letting him in - that part didn't make sense to me. He now knows that he looks like they're dirty, and they're in a situation where a little knowledge it potentially more damaging than the whole story. Why not take the chance to tell him everything then? If he reacted badly, Mack could have still put him in a sleeper hold, and they'd be in the exact same situation.
I'm hoping that it'll be spelled out as a case of him panicking next episode, and that Mack will still be a mostly-good guy who is possibly working for Stark or the Avengers. But it really depends on what happens next as to whether or not they can still pull that off.
I have a coworker who frequently has wrong opinions on nerd things - one of which is her insistence that Grant Ward was a more interesting character before he turned evil than afterward. I mean, clearly wrong, right? But I'm kind of feeling the same way about Mack now - he's a lot more interested as the conflicted double agent who is kind to Fitz than he is as someone who is hurt and distrustful and looking to take down the group.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:15 AM on March 11, 2015
I refuse to believe Agent Carter would mix up loose/lose.
Clearly the fault lies with whoever transcribed her typewritten review for the web. (SHIELD does not use OCR technology after that whole "Accidentally Scanning and Uploading the Darkhold" incident. You wouldn't believe how much Daimon Hellstrom bills for cyberexorcisms!)
posted by kewb at 10:28 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Clearly the fault lies with whoever transcribed her typewritten review for the web. (SHIELD does not use OCR technology after that whole "Accidentally Scanning and Uploading the Darkhold" incident. You wouldn't believe how much Daimon Hellstrom bills for cyberexorcisms!)
posted by kewb at 10:28 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I'm glad they haven't made us wait too long for reveals. Everyone knows about Skye after 1 episode."
That's a TV trope that I hate almost more than any other. I was so relieved that Skye's thing wasn't stupidly sustained over six episodes or something. And it seems like more shows are learning that audiences have limited tolerance for that contrivance -- my impression is that I've had this experience on several shows lately where I thought, oh god, they're going to drag out this secret thing forever and then, wow, they didn't, and I was very pleasantly surprised.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:02 PM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's a TV trope that I hate almost more than any other. I was so relieved that Skye's thing wasn't stupidly sustained over six episodes or something. And it seems like more shows are learning that audiences have limited tolerance for that contrivance -- my impression is that I've had this experience on several shows lately where I thought, oh god, they're going to drag out this secret thing forever and then, wow, they didn't, and I was very pleasantly surprised.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:02 PM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am having real trouble buying the Mockingbird/Mack double agent thing. The explanation better be truly convincing.
posted by Justinian at 4:19 PM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:19 PM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
What's hard to buy about it?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:07 PM on March 11, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:07 PM on March 11, 2015
So, Coulson. You're saying farewell to a god who has just saluted you, a mere human, for your courage. Yeah, hands in pockets and a bit of a slouch is the way I would have gone, too.
posted by Mogur at 5:20 PM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 5:20 PM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I love Eddie McClintock. And watching him as a Kree, here, I suspect even more of Pete Lattimer's goofiness was just Eddie being Eddie.
rmd1023 - I went to pretty much every Warehouse 13 panel at DragonCon for the past 6 years, and as far as I could tell Pete Lattimer & Eddie McClintock are one and the same, total goofballs. (Lots of them are up on youtube, if you're curious.)
posted by oh yeah! at 8:00 PM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
rmd1023 - I went to pretty much every Warehouse 13 panel at DragonCon for the past 6 years, and as far as I could tell Pete Lattimer & Eddie McClintock are one and the same, total goofballs. (Lots of them are up on youtube, if you're curious.)
posted by oh yeah! at 8:00 PM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
What's hard to buy about it?
Bobbi Morse betraying SHIELD doesn't seem likely.
posted by Justinian at 12:19 AM on March 12, 2015
Bobbi Morse betraying SHIELD doesn't seem likely.
posted by Justinian at 12:19 AM on March 12, 2015
Well, not if she's not being mind controlled or an imposter.
(It better not be mind control or an imposter)
posted by dinty_moore at 5:51 AM on March 12, 2015
(It better not be mind control or an imposter)
posted by dinty_moore at 5:51 AM on March 12, 2015
I don't know anything outside what's been on the screen and in theaters, but it seemed pretty obvious to me when I thought about it that the whole Avengers group, particularly Captain American and Stark, don't/didn't know that Coulson is alive and who would rightly have deep suspicions about some splinter/resurrected S.H.I.E.L.D. headed up by a) a mystery person, or b) a zombie Coulson and would especially be concerned about them having Fury's stuff. Mack and Bobbi have to be working for them or someone like them -- good guys who are suspicious about what's going with this group.
"I have a coworker who frequently has wrong opinions on nerd things - one of which is her insistence that Grant Ward was a more interesting character before he turned evil than afterward. I mean, clearly wrong, right?"
That's so true. I gave up on this show six episodes in and then after watching Agent Carter and hearing that this show got better, binge watched it all last week. Among the things I didn't like about the show that made me stop watching it were the strong episodic MOTW nature of it -- which quickly changed around the middle of the first season and the show became much more serialized -- and how uninteresting both Skye and Grant were. Well, Skye is still mostly uninteresting and a drag on the show (and I don't quite know why I don't like her, I should like her, but I've always felt like if I'd wanted to see Dushku in another Whedon show, I'd have preferred the actual Dushku -- which I wouldn't have, unless she was playing Faith somehow, because Faith was awesome but otherwise Dushku kind of sucks), but Grant became so much more interesting when he proved to be a villain. It retroactively made the things I'd hated about him actually tolerable -- in my memory, even. A vanilla emotionally guarded secret agent type with a predictable annoying tendency toward chivalry? So tropey. But that he was pretending to be this trope because he's actually a moderately amoral guy whose identity is built around his substitute father figure of a villain? That's so much better.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:14 AM on March 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
"I have a coworker who frequently has wrong opinions on nerd things - one of which is her insistence that Grant Ward was a more interesting character before he turned evil than afterward. I mean, clearly wrong, right?"
That's so true. I gave up on this show six episodes in and then after watching Agent Carter and hearing that this show got better, binge watched it all last week. Among the things I didn't like about the show that made me stop watching it were the strong episodic MOTW nature of it -- which quickly changed around the middle of the first season and the show became much more serialized -- and how uninteresting both Skye and Grant were. Well, Skye is still mostly uninteresting and a drag on the show (and I don't quite know why I don't like her, I should like her, but I've always felt like if I'd wanted to see Dushku in another Whedon show, I'd have preferred the actual Dushku -- which I wouldn't have, unless she was playing Faith somehow, because Faith was awesome but otherwise Dushku kind of sucks), but Grant became so much more interesting when he proved to be a villain. It retroactively made the things I'd hated about him actually tolerable -- in my memory, even. A vanilla emotionally guarded secret agent type with a predictable annoying tendency toward chivalry? So tropey. But that he was pretending to be this trope because he's actually a moderately amoral guy whose identity is built around his substitute father figure of a villain? That's so much better.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:14 AM on March 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Skye uses all the hero's journey tropes in the most bland way possible and with none of the payoff. Mysterious birth, the call to action, initial rejection of the call, being mentored, acceptance of the call and acquiring competence. Now we've had her secret divine nature exposed and it's still kind of a snooze.
posted by phearlez at 6:35 AM on March 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 6:35 AM on March 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've grown to tolerate Skye, but am worried the show might revolve around her too much since she's the "special one" now. Again. To the show's credit, this second season has felt like more of the characters getting their own time, but Skye remains somewhat bland. Not sure if it's the character or actor.
If you imagine the Peggy Carter that we saw in her mini-series was in the role that Skye is, it wouldn't be boring. Because Peggy is older and more knowledgeable about who she is. Skye's a younger character, a bit lost and finding her way. So maybe it's just that I'm an older person and have little patience for the character arc Skye is on these days.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:26 AM on March 12, 2015
If you imagine the Peggy Carter that we saw in her mini-series was in the role that Skye is, it wouldn't be boring. Because Peggy is older and more knowledgeable about who she is. Skye's a younger character, a bit lost and finding her way. So maybe it's just that I'm an older person and have little patience for the character arc Skye is on these days.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:26 AM on March 12, 2015
If Bobbi and Mack are double-agents for evil, I would be surprised. I think its more likely they are working for the Avengers or maybe even Nick "Schemes Within Schemes" Fury.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:20 AM on March 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:20 AM on March 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
My money is on Avengers, maybe specifically Tony Stark - they've already done the "reporting to Nick Fury without telling anybody" bit with Melinda May.
posted by PussKillian at 8:38 AM on March 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by PussKillian at 8:38 AM on March 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
So maybe it's just that I'm an older person and have little patience for the character arc Skye is on these days.
This is an interesting thought. I've maintained since Season 1 that Skye is the Buffy of Agents of SHIELD - not anybody's favorite character, but central, structurally, to the show (and I think this season, with Skye getting superpowers and Coulson getting promoted to the lofty position of Director, that's gotten more true); but maybe as we as an audience have aged, we have even less patience for the struggles (mostly with identity) of that particular character archetype? I'd believe it.
My money is on Avengers, maybe specifically Tony Stark
To be even more specific, I've been assuming they're working for Maria Hill, who went to work for Stark post-Winter Soldier, but has the requisite SHIELD credibility and connections to believably have Bobbi Morse acting on her behalf, and knows enough about Coulson's resurrection process to have some fairly reasonable concerns. (And might even feel like she should have been made Director instead of the potentially-unstable Coulson.)
posted by mstokes650 at 9:38 AM on March 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is an interesting thought. I've maintained since Season 1 that Skye is the Buffy of Agents of SHIELD - not anybody's favorite character, but central, structurally, to the show (and I think this season, with Skye getting superpowers and Coulson getting promoted to the lofty position of Director, that's gotten more true); but maybe as we as an audience have aged, we have even less patience for the struggles (mostly with identity) of that particular character archetype? I'd believe it.
My money is on Avengers, maybe specifically Tony Stark
To be even more specific, I've been assuming they're working for Maria Hill, who went to work for Stark post-Winter Soldier, but has the requisite SHIELD credibility and connections to believably have Bobbi Morse acting on her behalf, and knows enough about Coulson's resurrection process to have some fairly reasonable concerns. (And might even feel like she should have been made Director instead of the potentially-unstable Coulson.)
posted by mstokes650 at 9:38 AM on March 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
"I've maintained since Season 1 that Skye is the Buffy of Agents of SHIELD - not anybody's favorite character, but central, structurally, to the show..."
That's an interesting idea. I guess the problem I have with it is that I think that Buffy as a character and/or Gellar the actress was a crazy fluke in this respect. You're totally right in your description of the dynamic in the show, but that shouldn't have worked. I can't think of any other example where the lead character is no one's (well, few people's) favorite character and, as time goes on, more and more annoys a faithful audience. The only reason we tolerated it is because we, the audience, were like the Scooby Gang -- we were caught up in Buffy's wake and, really, it sucked to be her and in many respects it sucked to be around her. But the people around her were awesome and the what it all meant was also awesome. So we tolerated this increasingly less appealing character who, in the end, became a dour, brutal killjoy. They all changed drastically, but Buffy just got boring and insufferable. And that's my favorite all-time television show.
That really shouldn't be possible.
So maybe you're right -- maybe there was some ineffable genius that meant that this aspect of Buffy's character is essential to how the show was successful. The only way that I can really imagine that being the case is that it created more room for the ensemble to grow into their own. But I'm not really convinced of this. I'm more inclined to think that BtVS worked despite this failure, not because of it.
And so I just don't see it happening in this show. I mean, at least with BtVS it was nearly impossible to imagine the show without Buffy. And I don't mean a Slayer, I mean actually that particular slayer. Skye isn't even remotely as narratively central to this show. Not even close. They write it as if she were very important. But she's not. If you were to map out the social-psychology going on in the show, Skye wouldn't be the hub at the center of the wheel the way that Buffy was. But they write the show as if Skye was as important to this group as Buffy was to the Scoobies. That's really the problem. They conceived this character and write her as the viewer-identified character, our way into the world of S.H.I.E.L.D., and with the assumption that all the things we care about or should care about in the show are connected to her. But in-universe, somehow, that's not true. Which is quite an dubious achievement for the writers, given that they are the gods of this universe. They assume that Skye is central, that these characters they're writing are all understood by us and by each other through the prism of Skye, but the characters themselves, stubbornly, know that while they're fond of Skye, it's Coulson who's really the emotional center of the show. Except that the writing of Coulson and his acting doesn't quite pull that off, either -- although arguably it's because they keep placing Skye in that role.
Skye is a weak character, she's uninteresting in the ways that people have described. Writers always talk about characters coming to life on their own, and you can see this happen clearly in television shows where there's an ongoing, evolving process where a character grows into something that no one could have envisioned at the outset and which, in the end, is pretty clearly the result of a big, organic process. And I think one way to think about this is that we all sort of share similar models about how people think, about what kinds of person someone is, and so the actors and the writers and the directors and the audience, all of us are collectively modeling these characters in our heads. And because Skye was a weak character from the beginning and has remained so, what's happened is that the writing for all the other characters has accommodated this fact -- the other characters are not interested in her in the sense that the concept of the show takes for granted because, well, she's not that interesting. So the writing of all these other characters doesn't support the idea of Skye being compelling, being the center of the show, because she's uninteresting. But they keep plotting the shows as if she were.
The thing about Buffy is that even though she became less and less appealing, she was always the show's prime mover. And not just in the plot sense, but in the sense of how the other characters understood who they were, how they were changing, their places in the world. There was never any question that everything revolved around Buffy. So even though we found her personally less interesting and appealing over the show's run, it was tolerable because the people around her were who we most cared about and they couldn't help but care about her. There's just nothing equivalent to that on this show with Skye. Coulson could play that role, but he's only partly been doing so. I think it was a mistake for them to have structured the beginning of the show with Skye as the viewer-identified character and then to continue on with that assumption.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:02 PM on March 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
That's an interesting idea. I guess the problem I have with it is that I think that Buffy as a character and/or Gellar the actress was a crazy fluke in this respect. You're totally right in your description of the dynamic in the show, but that shouldn't have worked. I can't think of any other example where the lead character is no one's (well, few people's) favorite character and, as time goes on, more and more annoys a faithful audience. The only reason we tolerated it is because we, the audience, were like the Scooby Gang -- we were caught up in Buffy's wake and, really, it sucked to be her and in many respects it sucked to be around her. But the people around her were awesome and the what it all meant was also awesome. So we tolerated this increasingly less appealing character who, in the end, became a dour, brutal killjoy. They all changed drastically, but Buffy just got boring and insufferable. And that's my favorite all-time television show.
That really shouldn't be possible.
So maybe you're right -- maybe there was some ineffable genius that meant that this aspect of Buffy's character is essential to how the show was successful. The only way that I can really imagine that being the case is that it created more room for the ensemble to grow into their own. But I'm not really convinced of this. I'm more inclined to think that BtVS worked despite this failure, not because of it.
And so I just don't see it happening in this show. I mean, at least with BtVS it was nearly impossible to imagine the show without Buffy. And I don't mean a Slayer, I mean actually that particular slayer. Skye isn't even remotely as narratively central to this show. Not even close. They write it as if she were very important. But she's not. If you were to map out the social-psychology going on in the show, Skye wouldn't be the hub at the center of the wheel the way that Buffy was. But they write the show as if Skye was as important to this group as Buffy was to the Scoobies. That's really the problem. They conceived this character and write her as the viewer-identified character, our way into the world of S.H.I.E.L.D., and with the assumption that all the things we care about or should care about in the show are connected to her. But in-universe, somehow, that's not true. Which is quite an dubious achievement for the writers, given that they are the gods of this universe. They assume that Skye is central, that these characters they're writing are all understood by us and by each other through the prism of Skye, but the characters themselves, stubbornly, know that while they're fond of Skye, it's Coulson who's really the emotional center of the show. Except that the writing of Coulson and his acting doesn't quite pull that off, either -- although arguably it's because they keep placing Skye in that role.
Skye is a weak character, she's uninteresting in the ways that people have described. Writers always talk about characters coming to life on their own, and you can see this happen clearly in television shows where there's an ongoing, evolving process where a character grows into something that no one could have envisioned at the outset and which, in the end, is pretty clearly the result of a big, organic process. And I think one way to think about this is that we all sort of share similar models about how people think, about what kinds of person someone is, and so the actors and the writers and the directors and the audience, all of us are collectively modeling these characters in our heads. And because Skye was a weak character from the beginning and has remained so, what's happened is that the writing for all the other characters has accommodated this fact -- the other characters are not interested in her in the sense that the concept of the show takes for granted because, well, she's not that interesting. So the writing of all these other characters doesn't support the idea of Skye being compelling, being the center of the show, because she's uninteresting. But they keep plotting the shows as if she were.
The thing about Buffy is that even though she became less and less appealing, she was always the show's prime mover. And not just in the plot sense, but in the sense of how the other characters understood who they were, how they were changing, their places in the world. There was never any question that everything revolved around Buffy. So even though we found her personally less interesting and appealing over the show's run, it was tolerable because the people around her were who we most cared about and they couldn't help but care about her. There's just nothing equivalent to that on this show with Skye. Coulson could play that role, but he's only partly been doing so. I think it was a mistake for them to have structured the beginning of the show with Skye as the viewer-identified character and then to continue on with that assumption.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:02 PM on March 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think you're right that from the get-go, the Buffy duties were basically split up between Coulson and Skye - not only is Coulson really the emotional core of the team but he's also the actual, official leader and shot-caller. It's hard for Skye to have any ability to move things along because she has no leadership role whatsoever and is just sort of blown about by the plot. I could see her growing into a leadership role, eventually....but not with Coulson already occupying that spot, and I don't see them (or want them to) writing Coulson out.
OTOH I have been wondering how a fully-(or even mostly-)in-control-of-her-superpowers Quake would change the dynamic of show, and the only answer I can come up with is "a lot". So as she gradually masters her powers they almost necessarily have to go one of two ways: either A.) she gets a much less central role (maybe even down to just an occasionally-recurring character) so the show can continue on dealing with the kinds of relatively lesser (or at least not call-in-the-Avengers level) threats it mostly has been dealing with, or B.) the challenges they face escalate dramatically so they can still be challenging to a super-powered Skye, in which case she does maybe take on more of a Buffy-esque leadership role ("She's the only one who can do The Important Thing, we just back her up") and Coulson slips even more into a Giles/Nick Fury-ish support role. The latter route seems more likely, since, as you say, they have a tendency to already write plots as if she were The Only One With The Power To Do The Thing even though she's definitely not that at the moment. Either way could potentially work, I think, but they're definitely in kind of an awkward transition phase still.
posted by mstokes650 at 12:31 PM on March 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
OTOH I have been wondering how a fully-(or even mostly-)in-control-of-her-superpowers Quake would change the dynamic of show, and the only answer I can come up with is "a lot". So as she gradually masters her powers they almost necessarily have to go one of two ways: either A.) she gets a much less central role (maybe even down to just an occasionally-recurring character) so the show can continue on dealing with the kinds of relatively lesser (or at least not call-in-the-Avengers level) threats it mostly has been dealing with, or B.) the challenges they face escalate dramatically so they can still be challenging to a super-powered Skye, in which case she does maybe take on more of a Buffy-esque leadership role ("She's the only one who can do The Important Thing, we just back her up") and Coulson slips even more into a Giles/Nick Fury-ish support role. The latter route seems more likely, since, as you say, they have a tendency to already write plots as if she were The Only One With The Power To Do The Thing even though she's definitely not that at the moment. Either way could potentially work, I think, but they're definitely in kind of an awkward transition phase still.
posted by mstokes650 at 12:31 PM on March 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought this episode was a lot of fun, mostly because: Lady Sif fighting a Kree. That's really all I need from this show. Also, the Asguardians are space-racists against Kree! Beautiful.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:40 PM on March 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:40 PM on March 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I can't think of any other example where the lead character is no one's (well, few people's) favorite character and, as time goes on, more and more annoys a faithful audience.
I've seen Orange is the New Black described that way by a number of people.
posted by Quonab at 4:51 PM on March 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've seen Orange is the New Black described that way by a number of people.
posted by Quonab at 4:51 PM on March 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
My experience with Teen Wolf fans was that I was a weirdo for actually liking the main character.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:52 PM on March 12, 2015
posted by dinty_moore at 7:52 PM on March 12, 2015
I don't think that Skye is intended to be the central character in the same way Buffy was, but now I'm really trying to think of shows where the clear lead character is overshadowed by another.
The first and biggest example is probably Seinfeld. Some people love Jerry, but both George and Kramer were huge fan favorites.
Other possibilities: Arrested Development? HIMYM? Cheers? I couldn't come up with any dramas.
posted by 2ht at 4:34 AM on March 13, 2015
The first and biggest example is probably Seinfeld. Some people love Jerry, but both George and Kramer were huge fan favorites.
Other possibilities: Arrested Development? HIMYM? Cheers? I couldn't come up with any dramas.
posted by 2ht at 4:34 AM on March 13, 2015
Hmm, finally caught up on the episode and my thought is that Mack and Bobbi are working for Talbot. Purportedly an ally, but deeeeply skeptical of Coulson and all of what passes for SHIELD now.
My other thought is: WTF is with Sif's boots? Because those are not the footwear that goes with armor and swords. So fucking ridiculous.
I am still bored bored bored by Lance Hunter. And I wish they did a better job choreographing Bobbi's fight scenes -- I suspect Adrienne Palicki isn't doing as much of her character's fighting as Ming Na Wen is.
posted by suelac at 11:34 PM on March 13, 2015
My other thought is: WTF is with Sif's boots? Because those are not the footwear that goes with armor and swords. So fucking ridiculous.
I am still bored bored bored by Lance Hunter. And I wish they did a better job choreographing Bobbi's fight scenes -- I suspect Adrienne Palicki isn't doing as much of her character's fighting as Ming Na Wen is.
posted by suelac at 11:34 PM on March 13, 2015
I've grown to tolerate Skye, but am worried the show might revolve around her too much since she's the "special one" now. Again.
She's literally a Mary Sue.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:43 PM on March 16, 2015
She's literally a Mary Sue.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:43 PM on March 16, 2015
I don't think that Skye is intended to be the central character in the same way Buffy was, but now I'm really trying to think of shows where the clear lead character is overshadowed by another [ . . .] I couldn't come up with any dramas.
I thought Blake was one of the least interesting characters in Blake's 7. (See also Luke Skywalker.)
The observations are interesting, though. On Blake's 7 and other series named you are kind of stuck with the lead character as a concept. If the acting or writing never gels, well, you're still stuck with them. Someone like Skye who's not working out you could presumably just drift away from.
posted by mark k at 10:23 PM on March 16, 2015
I thought Blake was one of the least interesting characters in Blake's 7. (See also Luke Skywalker.)
The observations are interesting, though. On Blake's 7 and other series named you are kind of stuck with the lead character as a concept. If the acting or writing never gels, well, you're still stuck with them. Someone like Skye who's not working out you could presumably just drift away from.
posted by mark k at 10:23 PM on March 16, 2015
Skye is awful. If I have to listen to her whine and self-doubt one more time I'm gonna scream. The character's not so bad when she shows some backbone but as a hapless damsel she's tedious. I'm also really annoyed that she's basically the exact same trope as River on Firefly, the pretty little girl everyone underestimates but is actually Death Incarnate. As a foil for the other characters, though, she's just fine. Fortunately the writing around her is good.
I love the goofy turn this episode took with the Asgard/Kree dueling. I'm not steeped in Marvel, much less the MCU, so this goofy alien god stuff is just hilarious and out of nowhere to me. It also dovetails nicely with Guardians of the Galaxy, and even if these various properties never interact in the on-screen stories I like the Kree continuity. The line about Willy Wonka blue was just perfect. We're not supposed to take this seriously, it's good comic book fun on the teevee, just enjoy it.
posted by Nelson at 9:27 AM on March 20, 2015
I love the goofy turn this episode took with the Asgard/Kree dueling. I'm not steeped in Marvel, much less the MCU, so this goofy alien god stuff is just hilarious and out of nowhere to me. It also dovetails nicely with Guardians of the Galaxy, and even if these various properties never interact in the on-screen stories I like the Kree continuity. The line about Willy Wonka blue was just perfect. We're not supposed to take this seriously, it's good comic book fun on the teevee, just enjoy it.
posted by Nelson at 9:27 AM on March 20, 2015
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Recaps
Various BS
"Why is my hand not blue?"
Meanwhile, I'm interested to see what happens with the growing philosophical split between Fitz and Simmons.
posted by rmd1023 at 6:47 AM on March 11, 2015 [4 favorites]