Game of Thrones: Sons of the Harpy Books Included
May 3, 2015 9:49 PM - Season 5, Episode 4 - Subscribe
The King is caught between Sansa and Margary. Stannis has a touching moment with his daughter. Jamie and Bronn bro it up, Tyrion and Jorah fail to do so. Sansa gets ready for a big move. We get introduced to Oberyn's daughters. We get some backstory about Rhaegar.
I thought this episode was just awesome, I had to make this post because I couldn't wait. The show is really over-taking the books, and I am almost 100% behind the way they're doing it.
Loooooved Baelish's wordless reply to Sansa's statement that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Gonna drive book fans crazy with that. The fact that Rhaegar came up in Dany's too scene makes me think they're going to make some major moves to flesh out the backstory of Robert's Rebellion.
Stannis' scene with his daughter was genuinely touching, I was very surprised.
Also, so many small changes are piling up the show really is all its own now. And WTF, they might be killing Ser Barristan? I figure he must be about to tell Dany some important stuff and then die, maybe they need to thin out the ranks of her advisors. But since he's such a strong link to the past I thought he'd stick around. Love the actor who they have playing him.
I thought this episode was just awesome, I had to make this post because I couldn't wait. The show is really over-taking the books, and I am almost 100% behind the way they're doing it.
Loooooved Baelish's wordless reply to Sansa's statement that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Gonna drive book fans crazy with that. The fact that Rhaegar came up in Dany's too scene makes me think they're going to make some major moves to flesh out the backstory of Robert's Rebellion.
Stannis' scene with his daughter was genuinely touching, I was very surprised.
Also, so many small changes are piling up the show really is all its own now. And WTF, they might be killing Ser Barristan? I figure he must be about to tell Dany some important stuff and then die, maybe they need to thin out the ranks of her advisors. But since he's such a strong link to the past I thought he'd stick around. Love the actor who they have playing him.
Wait, is this the books thread, or the non-books thread?
posted by ocherdraco at 9:55 PM on May 3, 2015
posted by ocherdraco at 9:55 PM on May 3, 2015
NOT HAPPY ABOUT BARRISTAN AT ALL
posted by lalochezia at 10:00 PM on May 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 10:00 PM on May 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
oh, i'm sorry, I meant to mark this as books included, I added a tag, perhaps a mod can change it?
posted by skewed at 10:00 PM on May 3, 2015
posted by skewed at 10:00 PM on May 3, 2015
i did not like the scenes with the unsullied attacked by the the harpies. Unsullied are supposed to kick ass even when facing unbelievable odds. They could have had the unsullied overwhelmed, but not like that.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:01 PM on May 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:01 PM on May 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
Agreed, clevername. I also find myself annoyed that the Unsullied have long spears and nothing else - IIRC from the books, they're trained with short sword, small shield, and spear. And for close-quarters combat like this, short sword would've been a LOT MORE USEFUL damnit.
posted by coriolisdave at 10:08 PM on May 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by coriolisdave at 10:08 PM on May 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
ALSO NOT HAPPY ABOUT BARRISTAN. Also not happy with how the harpies overwhelming the Unsullied were shot, though one could argue that perhaps the Unsullied are badass in traditional "two lines of combatants meet on an open field" combat, not MOUT/UO, but so far all the lore and previous events depicted set them up as being just generally badass.
Lots of interesting stuff in this episode. I'm very curious what will happen to Mormont & Tyrion on a boat. I suspect we're getting the Aegon-free abbreviated Tyrion-on-a-boat storyline (sooo basically he falls in the water, gets grayscale, then ends up with Dany, I guess?) Why else would this episode ALSO have a big "let's talk about grayscale" scene with Stannis and Shireen, if not to set up the audience to recognize this when it happens?
Then again, if Tyrion is going direct to Mereen, we're going to need the siege by the Slavers' Bay cities to start happening very quickly now in order for that plotline to be going by the time he gets there.
posted by Alterscape at 10:09 PM on May 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Lots of interesting stuff in this episode. I'm very curious what will happen to Mormont & Tyrion on a boat. I suspect we're getting the Aegon-free abbreviated Tyrion-on-a-boat storyline (sooo basically he falls in the water, gets grayscale, then ends up with Dany, I guess?) Why else would this episode ALSO have a big "let's talk about grayscale" scene with Stannis and Shireen, if not to set up the audience to recognize this when it happens?
Then again, if Tyrion is going direct to Mereen, we're going to need the siege by the Slavers' Bay cities to start happening very quickly now in order for that plotline to be going by the time he gets there.
posted by Alterscape at 10:09 PM on May 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Barristan's scene was like
but meryn is off to bravos. a hey nonny nonny and a faceless man!
posted by lalochezia at 10:10 PM on May 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
but meryn is off to bravos. a hey nonny nonny and a faceless man!
posted by lalochezia at 10:10 PM on May 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
+ bronn kicking ass
+ v. nice spin on the "you know nothing john snow"
- dumb sandsnakes are dumb
- faith militant 0-60 in 5 seconds! too quick!
posted by lalochezia at 10:13 PM on May 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
+ v. nice spin on the "you know nothing john snow"
- dumb sandsnakes are dumb
- faith militant 0-60 in 5 seconds! too quick!
posted by lalochezia at 10:13 PM on May 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
you've not only disappointed me
you've disappointed ser pounce
posted by rewil at 10:13 PM on May 3, 2015 [18 favorites]
you've disappointed ser pounce
posted by rewil at 10:13 PM on May 3, 2015 [18 favorites]
Things are really heating up! And maybe Sons over Unsullied, but not like that. In tight tunnels, with knives, in the dark. But that's a bear to shoot, and confusing.
Also, big pitched battle makes no sense. You want to run an insurgency, keep hacking off Unsullied heads when they go cuddle with the now-freed pleasure slaves. Split them from the populace, make them never be alone, and do the same to the mercenaries.
But we have to move fast now we're past the books, and the viewing audiences aren't going to sit for three seasons of slowly-tangling Meereenese Knot.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:41 PM on May 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, big pitched battle makes no sense. You want to run an insurgency, keep hacking off Unsullied heads when they go cuddle with the now-freed pleasure slaves. Split them from the populace, make them never be alone, and do the same to the mercenaries.
But we have to move fast now we're past the books, and the viewing audiences aren't going to sit for three seasons of slowly-tangling Meereenese Knot.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:41 PM on May 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Only from Stannis does "I told them all to go to hell" mean "I love you."
posted by KathrynT at 10:57 PM on May 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 10:57 PM on May 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
and the viewing audiences aren't going to sit for three seasons of slowly-tangling Meereenese Knot
Thank jesus. Also less boring-as-hell BOAT RIDE.
posted by Justinian at 1:34 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thank jesus. Also less boring-as-hell BOAT RIDE.
posted by Justinian at 1:34 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
+ Tommen's storyline. Not just a puppet of Cercei, old enough to think he should be making decisions, but not old enough to get anything done. Could be interesting.
+ We finally start getting R+L. Quite clever and unexpected having Baelish be the source. I was all 'Tourney at Harrenhall! Yay!' and then having to shut up in front of my non-book partner.
Maybe a bit hamfisted to go from Sansa saying 'he raped my aunt and killed loads of people' to Barristan being all 'he liked music and was funny and generous and wouldn't hurt anyone and petted kittens'. But maybe something that needed to be quite explicit given that Rheagar hadn't been mentioned for a while.
+ Stannis humanised
- Mel trying to get her way with Jon by using BOOBS rather than totally scary Red God fire magic. She should be badass in her own right!
- Faith militant being all homophobic and that. Nice idea of Cercei to use them to attack Loras though.
- As others said, the Unsullied are supposed to be total badass warriors, they're not going to run off into an ambush and once there they're going to fight in formation not in a brawl. Sons would surely be running a Battle of Algiers style guerrilla war. . Disappointed to see Selmy go, one of my favourite characters. Wonder if this means Jorah will be back with Dany before the Siege (seeing as Barristan gets a couple of POV chapters there, commanding the defense).
Ambivalent about Dorne, could turn out well. Needs more Areo.
posted by Pink Frost at 3:30 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
+ We finally start getting R+L. Quite clever and unexpected having Baelish be the source. I was all 'Tourney at Harrenhall! Yay!' and then having to shut up in front of my non-book partner.
Maybe a bit hamfisted to go from Sansa saying 'he raped my aunt and killed loads of people' to Barristan being all 'he liked music and was funny and generous and wouldn't hurt anyone and petted kittens'. But maybe something that needed to be quite explicit given that Rheagar hadn't been mentioned for a while.
+ Stannis humanised
- Mel trying to get her way with Jon by using BOOBS rather than totally scary Red God fire magic. She should be badass in her own right!
- Faith militant being all homophobic and that. Nice idea of Cercei to use them to attack Loras though.
- As others said, the Unsullied are supposed to be total badass warriors, they're not going to run off into an ambush and once there they're going to fight in formation not in a brawl. Sons would surely be running a Battle of Algiers style guerrilla war. . Disappointed to see Selmy go, one of my favourite characters. Wonder if this means Jorah will be back with Dany before the Siege (seeing as Barristan gets a couple of POV chapters there, commanding the defense).
Ambivalent about Dorne, could turn out well. Needs more Areo.
posted by Pink Frost at 3:30 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wow, lots to unpack with this episode. I've spent last season and all of this season so far singing the praises of the show in making great adaptation choices and deviating from the books in ways that would have even made the books better, and I'm sure I'll get to that point again... but yeah, I am really, really unhappy about the decision to get rid of Barristan. His turn in ADWD is one of the few things I really liked about it, and he is the type of character--a paladin, really--that doesn't really exist in GRRM's world, but he still manages to feel like he belongs. I think Brienne is the only other one that comes close... and is now the only one at all (unless you count Jaime as a sort of fallen paladin, which I can see). He may very well end up dying in book 6 or 7, because that character archetype, especially when applied to someone of advanced age, tends to carry a death flag around, but going this way just didn't feel right. I get what they are trying to do--take away Dany's base of support, give the audience an Obi-Wan-style death, and perhaps also, as Pink Frost suggests, create an opening for Jorah--but I'm not a fan. It sort of felt perfunctory, like a Shocking Joss Whedon Death does nowadays.
I did appreciate the way things were handled with Sansa/R+L, the way that Sansa and Jon are likely to converge (though I really, really hope the show doesn't go too far with Ramsay and her), and the scene with Stannis and Shireen, especially because the show's portrayal of Stannis is one of the things I typically disagree with (though Stephen Dillane is quite good). Dorne was fine; I appreciate the simplified Sand Snakes and am enjoying Jaime and Bronn's dynamic duo. I'm looking forward to the reveal of Doran's slowly simmering plan, though I'm curious as to what form it'll take in the show, if it indeed comes around. (Still not thrilled about apparently cutting Arianne.)
And I totally agree the scene with Melisandre was weird and not good at all. I (sort of) get what they were going for, but it just seemed clunky. Her using Ygritte's line on the way out didn't really work, though I'm not sure if that's because it never would have or because it's been beaten to death by the fandom over the years.
posted by Kosh at 4:03 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I did appreciate the way things were handled with Sansa/R+L, the way that Sansa and Jon are likely to converge (though I really, really hope the show doesn't go too far with Ramsay and her), and the scene with Stannis and Shireen, especially because the show's portrayal of Stannis is one of the things I typically disagree with (though Stephen Dillane is quite good). Dorne was fine; I appreciate the simplified Sand Snakes and am enjoying Jaime and Bronn's dynamic duo. I'm looking forward to the reveal of Doran's slowly simmering plan, though I'm curious as to what form it'll take in the show, if it indeed comes around. (Still not thrilled about apparently cutting Arianne.)
And I totally agree the scene with Melisandre was weird and not good at all. I (sort of) get what they were going for, but it just seemed clunky. Her using Ygritte's line on the way out didn't really work, though I'm not sure if that's because it never would have or because it's been beaten to death by the fandom over the years.
posted by Kosh at 4:03 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Funny how that scene with Stannis did so much to humanize him, but he was still so very much Stanis. He's not sure what to do with Shireen's overt affection, it clearly makes him uncomfortable, yet he clearly loves her. Damn fine character and acting.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:34 AM on May 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:34 AM on May 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
I was surprised and a little taken aback by how blatantly they're doing R+L. It's not just the Sansa and Littlefinger scene and then Barristan's story -- it's also the huge clue of Melisandre's interest in Jon, her attempted seduction, and mentioning "make a shadow". That doesn't require royal blood or anything, but I think it's still very suggestive. All in a single episode.
Mostly this episode was pretty middling for me, and I also had a lot of trouble with the Unsullied being so easily defeated.
But that Stannis and Shireen scene had me actually crying. That was amazing.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:58 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mostly this episode was pretty middling for me, and I also had a lot of trouble with the Unsullied being so easily defeated.
But that Stannis and Shireen scene had me actually crying. That was amazing.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:58 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was interesting to see humanized Stannis in comparison to his wife, who sees their daughter as a failure, or worse, an abomination. Only when Melisandre told Selyse that the Red God sees the good inside people did Selyse back off on the scorn for Shireen, who is also a great little actress.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:09 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 5:09 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
On Shireen/Greyscale-- they implied that the Dornish trader had purposefully given her the doll infected with greyscale (doll "bated" for Stannis with the house colors, she pressed it to her cheek, then she got sick, they burned the doll). This wasn't in the books, as best as I recall, and was an interesting detail-- both a source guilt on Stannis' part for falling for the plan, and, I imagine, possibly a point of revenge-seeking against Dorne.
posted by damayanti at 5:12 AM on May 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by damayanti at 5:12 AM on May 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
damayanti, I was thinking the same thing. I don't see anything about how Shireen got it in the book discussions, so I assume if it was in the books, someone would have been quick to cite it.
Selyse's comments to Stannis about bringing him nothing but shame or whatnot made me think on the power dynamics of the women in this episode.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:35 AM on May 4, 2015
Selyse's comments to Stannis about bringing him nothing but shame or whatnot made me think on the power dynamics of the women in this episode.
- Cercei has inherent power as Queen Dowager and a Lannister from Tywin, the last Great Lannister. Her word makes people act, by the power of her position beside/above the young king, and as a Lannister who always Pays Her Debts (except those owed to the Iron Bank).
- Queen Margaery is the true queen, wife to King Tommen, and she has power through her manipulation of him, which ranges from seduction, guile and in most recently, belittling.
- Selyse only sees her power in her ability to provide Stannish with a boy child, and anything less than a viable heir is her being a failure. She doesn't see her own power in her conversion to the faith of the Red God, mainly because she is a true believer who sees her conversion as a good and true act of faith.
- Melisandre has many powers, from her strong presence and confidence to her magic, and of course, seduction.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:35 AM on May 4, 2015
... Shireen, who is also a great little actress.
Yeah, that lingering shot on her face as Stannis was talking was terrific.
posted by Kosh at 5:40 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that lingering shot on her face as Stannis was talking was terrific.
posted by Kosh at 5:40 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
That Sons of the Harpy battle gave me a big, hollow, heavy ball of sadness and horror in my chest. Eventually I recognised it as the same one I had during most of the Meereen chapters. feelings, man. Who needs em?
On a more scorpion encrusted, head stabby note, Sand Snakes! Keisha Castle-Hughes! Yay!
posted by misfish at 5:44 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
On a more scorpion encrusted, head stabby note, Sand Snakes! Keisha Castle-Hughes! Yay!
posted by misfish at 5:44 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
There were some great bits of dialog in this episode. The first that made me smile was Samwell talking to Jon about the various lords and how many men each had. Jon asks about how many men some lord has, and Sam laughs, saying "Not as many as lord Weberly," which baffles Jon. I imagined Sam then saying "It's funny, if you knew lord Weberly."
And I love Detective Tyrion! "A waste of a good kidnapping" indeed. He took identified Mormont and his plot from his clothes and his few actions.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:48 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
And I love Detective Tyrion! "A waste of a good kidnapping" indeed. He took identified Mormont and his plot from his clothes and his few actions.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:48 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Daenerys is in a really bad spot. But if she plays her cards right, she could have Mormont, Tyrion and Varys all acting as her advisors. Because man does someone need to talk to her about ruling.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:51 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:51 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I loved that scene with Stannis and Shireen- that was sweet in a way that we don't often see from Stannis, and it's really interesting to see that.
Also I thought Melisandre was trying to get Jon to father a shadow-child with which to kill... I dunno, Roose? But also I think that's an interesting scene in light of that one Sand Snake's speech about choosing one's weapons.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:53 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also I thought Melisandre was trying to get Jon to father a shadow-child with which to kill... I dunno, Roose? But also I think that's an interesting scene in light of that one Sand Snake's speech about choosing one's weapons.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:53 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Because man does someone need to talk to her about ruling.
"Everyone looks so happy from up here." Sure, they look happy when they're all little ants and you can't see their faces. Was she such a mess in the books? I know she lost two cities to the idea that the masters were the problem, and once gone, the newly freed slaves would rule themselves better, but she's said some rather foolish things in the show that I don't recall having parallels in the books.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:57 AM on May 4, 2015
"Everyone looks so happy from up here." Sure, they look happy when they're all little ants and you can't see their faces. Was she such a mess in the books? I know she lost two cities to the idea that the masters were the problem, and once gone, the newly freed slaves would rule themselves better, but she's said some rather foolish things in the show that I don't recall having parallels in the books.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:57 AM on May 4, 2015
Anyone else notice Melisandre pointedly mention Shireen's royal blood to Mom, and have Mom nod and slip away? I worry that Melisandre has some unfortunate plans in store for her a la Gendry.
That would be sufficient to have Stannis finally come to his senses.
...and then likely die horribly.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:03 AM on May 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
That would be sufficient to have Stannis finally come to his senses.
...and then likely die horribly.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:03 AM on May 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
To be fair, she has absolutely no education in these matters. She has great potential, but she's at a really low point and hasn't yet comprehended that ruling has a lot of grey areas. Being a king or queen often means you don't get to do exactly as you want and especially not as easily as you'd like.
It's lonely, tedious and frustrating at the top, but you do eat pretty good, so there's that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:04 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's lonely, tedious and frustrating at the top, but you do eat pretty good, so there's that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:04 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
As to Shireen, I'm guessing she had power because she has some greyscale but wasn't consumed by it. Since there's "scale" in that there word, it's realted to dragons probably. Or she's one of those people who helped saved Bran at the tree i.e. can throw fire or something.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:07 AM on May 4, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:07 AM on May 4, 2015
From a reddit commentator:
"Dany: Go, Ser Barristan. Sing a song for me.
Ohhh, I get it. The song is his sword......."
posted by lalochezia at 6:12 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Dany: Go, Ser Barristan. Sing a song for me.
Ohhh, I get it. The song is his sword......."
posted by lalochezia at 6:12 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Why are you squeezing me with your body?" That final shot of Stannis and Shireen will end up on Arrested Westeros, mark my words. It was a lovely scene, one we've been deprived of in the books. If I weren't already heavily invested in Team Sansa I could see myself hopping aboard the Stannis the Mannis bus, if only to pave the way for Good Queen Shireen. I, too, fear for her well-being in the meantime.
The two contrasting references to Rhaegar were totally out of the blue, but very welcome. I don't know how many watchers will have followed that trail, and I wonder if we'll start to see/hear more references sprinkled throughout the next couple seasons.
"Barristan can't be dead!" I cried, but sure enough the preview for next week showed a far shot of his body laid upon a bier. He went out swinging, with sword in hand, but I would have much preferred to see it (as we probably will in the books) on a great bloody battlefield. I'll miss him terribly, but not as much as Dany will.
I was very confused at first about Jorah putting Tyrion in a boat. Volantis is on, or very near, the coast, and I supposed Jorah was going to sail along that coast until Merreen? But a later shot (and another from next week's preview) made it more clear that they were sailing along a river. No doubt they've replaced Tyrion's river journey by houseboat with his kidnapping by Jorah. I suspect the banter won't be so lively as it was in The Box.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 6:25 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
The two contrasting references to Rhaegar were totally out of the blue, but very welcome. I don't know how many watchers will have followed that trail, and I wonder if we'll start to see/hear more references sprinkled throughout the next couple seasons.
"Barristan can't be dead!" I cried, but sure enough the preview for next week showed a far shot of his body laid upon a bier. He went out swinging, with sword in hand, but I would have much preferred to see it (as we probably will in the books) on a great bloody battlefield. I'll miss him terribly, but not as much as Dany will.
I was very confused at first about Jorah putting Tyrion in a boat. Volantis is on, or very near, the coast, and I supposed Jorah was going to sail along that coast until Merreen? But a later shot (and another from next week's preview) made it more clear that they were sailing along a river. No doubt they've replaced Tyrion's river journey by houseboat with his kidnapping by Jorah. I suspect the banter won't be so lively as it was in The Box.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 6:25 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did anyone else read Melisandre's attempted seduction of Jon Snow as an attempt to create another of those murderous shadow monsters, targeted at the Boltons? "Join us in the Siege of Winterfell" almost straight to "Light casts a shadow." Not really sure why we needed that clunky scene at all, considering book-Jon decides to ride south anyway, but that's how I read those tea-leaves.
posted by Alterscape at 6:31 AM on May 4, 2015
posted by Alterscape at 6:31 AM on May 4, 2015
Anyone else notice Melisandre pointedly mention Shireen's royal blood to Mom, and have Mom nod and slip away? I worry that Melisandre has some unfortunate plans in store for her a la Gendry.
Shireen's going to disappear on a boat?
Did anyone else read Melisandre's attempted seduction of Jon Snow as an attempt to create another of those murderous shadow monsters, targeted at the Boltons? "Join us in the Siege of Winterfell" almost straight to "Light casts a shadow."
Yeah, I assume she intends a decapitation strike at Roose.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:33 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Shireen's going to disappear on a boat?
Did anyone else read Melisandre's attempted seduction of Jon Snow as an attempt to create another of those murderous shadow monsters, targeted at the Boltons? "Join us in the Siege of Winterfell" almost straight to "Light casts a shadow."
Yeah, I assume she intends a decapitation strike at Roose.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:33 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I suspect we're getting the Aegon-free abbreviated Tyrion-on-a-boat storyline (sooo basically he falls in the water, gets grayscale, then ends up with Dany, I guess?)
Do you think that means they're not going to do Aegon at all?
posted by corb at 6:34 AM on May 4, 2015
Do you think that means they're not going to do Aegon at all?
posted by corb at 6:34 AM on May 4, 2015
She says to Jon:
"The Lord of Light made male and female: two parts of a greater whole. In our joining, there's power. Power to make life, power to make light, and power to cast shadows."posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:37 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Corb, I suspect not, though if the character is minor enough for the showrunners to just cut, that makes me wonder why we got a whole book of Tyrion and Young Griff on a boat. Wonder if we'll get Abbreviated Aegon somewhere in the future, then?
That's exactly what I was referring to, Ivan Fyodorovich. I guess the question is, why include this scene? Several reasons I can imagine: 1) To reinforce that Jon had other choices he could have made, and chose his own doom; 2) To draw out some comparison between doing things "the easy way" and "the right way" (a very Jon-like thing)..
posted by Alterscape at 6:46 AM on May 4, 2015
That's exactly what I was referring to, Ivan Fyodorovich. I guess the question is, why include this scene? Several reasons I can imagine: 1) To reinforce that Jon had other choices he could have made, and chose his own doom; 2) To draw out some comparison between doing things "the easy way" and "the right way" (a very Jon-like thing)..
posted by Alterscape at 6:46 AM on May 4, 2015
If they're going to do Aegon, having him hiding in Dorne would be the easiest way for them to pull it off.
posted by drezdn at 6:52 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 6:52 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Regarding Shireen, there is a fan theory that Melisandre will use Shireen's king's blood to revive Jon Snow: "Waking dragons (Jon Snow, a Targaryen) from stone (Shireen, a greyscale survivor)."
posted by dhens at 6:59 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by dhens at 6:59 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
That theory especially makes sense if you look at this theory about Jon being the rightful lord of Dragonstone.
posted by corb at 7:32 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 7:32 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have to say, the show is making a lot of the plots in the later books (Tyrion on a boat, Jeyne/Fake Arya, Meereen in general, and possibly Aegon) look even more like the long, meandering distractions that they already were.
I am guessing we'll probably skip the Hizdahr marriage at this point, too, unless that's what's offered up as the solution to the Harpy problem.
posted by Kosh at 7:35 AM on May 4, 2015
I am guessing we'll probably skip the Hizdahr marriage at this point, too, unless that's what's offered up as the solution to the Harpy problem.
posted by Kosh at 7:35 AM on May 4, 2015
The Hizdahr marriage was offered up in the books to stop the Harpy problem, so I'm confident it will work itself out the same way in the show. Will we see the Green Grace, I wonder?
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 8:00 AM on May 4, 2015
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 8:00 AM on May 4, 2015
Show Hizdahr actually seems a bit more likeable than book Hizdahr. I suspect we'll be seeing the marriage too -- just in time to gut-punch Jorah Mormont.
posted by dhens at 8:13 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by dhens at 8:13 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am also curious if perhaps Beric/Thoros will end up reviving Sandor Clegane. Lady Stoneheart is apparently not going to be on the show, and it seems like they just left the whole "hey we can resurrect folks" plotline up in the air. Given that we won't see Brienne at the Quiet Isle, where the Gravedigger is, this could be a way for Cleganebowl to happen. GET HYPE.
posted by dhens at 8:20 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by dhens at 8:20 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think Tyrion's Griff boat trip was down the Rhoyne to get to Volantis in the books. Once there, he gets captured by Jorah, they sail to Meereen, but get captured by pirates who sell them into slavery. Since there was a mention of Stone Men at the ruins of Valyria, rather than at the ruins on the Rhoyne, it sounds like the book boat rides will be merged a little bit, and there'll be stone men trying to jump on the boat as they pass around Valyria on the eway to Slaver's Bay.
posted by LionIndex at 8:42 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by LionIndex at 8:42 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Won't all the dead Harpy bodies make it easy to figure out what families are involved in the conspiracy?
posted by drezdn at 8:45 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 8:45 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I love that since Stannis' single emotion is vaguely constipated distemper, the only way he can explain his love for his daughter is a story about him telling people to get stuffed.
posted by codacorolla at 9:00 AM on May 4, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 9:00 AM on May 4, 2015 [18 favorites]
Maybe the gravediggers of the Harpy will hide the evidence quickly enough.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:01 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:01 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
My vague remembrance from the book is that the literal sons of the harpy farm out the inglorious dying part of insurrection to lower castes of free men, sellswords, and the like, with the nobles calling the shots from their pyramids.
posted by codacorolla at 9:03 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 9:03 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Only from Stannis does "I told them all to go to hell" mean "I love you."
posted by Navelgazer at 9:12 AM on May 4, 2015
posted by Navelgazer at 9:12 AM on May 4, 2015
I am mad/sad about Barristan but pretty embarrassingly pumped for everything else.
BUT
- where is Gendry? show gendry is still in a rowboat somewhere but where is book gendry?
- where is rickon? i can't remember either book or show the last time we saw him.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:13 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
BUT
- where is Gendry? show gendry is still in a rowboat somewhere but where is book gendry?
- where is rickon? i can't remember either book or show the last time we saw him.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:13 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
poffin boffin: Rickon is supposed to be on Skagos in the books, in hiding with Osha. I don't know if they are going to do the whole side plot with Davos looking for him in cooperation with Wyman Manderly (I heart Wyman Manderly) on the show, Wyman has not been cast.
In the show, I think they vaguely made reference to Osha taking Rickon to hide with one of the Northern lords.
posted by dhens at 9:15 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
In the show, I think they vaguely made reference to Osha taking Rickon to hide with one of the Northern lords.
posted by dhens at 9:15 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
And where is the goddamned Blackfish?!
posted by Navelgazer at 9:15 AM on May 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 9:15 AM on May 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
Also, book Gendry is chilling with the BwB, he was at the Inn at the Crossroads when Brienne was attacked by Biter.
posted by dhens at 9:16 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dhens at 9:16 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Only when Melisandre told Selyse that the Red God sees the good inside people did Selyse back off on the scorn for Shireen
I might be mis-remembering or conflating some stuff, but I took Melisandre's comments to be a bit more ominous in terms of Shireen's future/blood of kings kinda stuff; a subtle point to Selyse that Shireen is important and useful because of that value. But then I'm inclined to read the worst into Melisandre/Selyse.
If they're going to do Aegon, having him hiding in Dorne would be the easiest way for them to pull it off.
Exactly what I am thinking; Bashir Martell rounds up the Sand Snakes and the reveal here is not the failed, planned marriage between Viserys and Arianne (is Arianne even going to show up?) but that they are hiding Aegon.
Although if they are doing that, then I don't get the whole Viserys/Danerys show in Essos, because Aegon would take precedence in the line of succession, correct? Aegon is the son of the Crown Prince, Viserys is the second son of the King. Or would the hope be that Viserys raises the army of Dothraki which joins with the Dornish to seat Aegon, and Viserys becomes disposable at that point - an effective distraction from the fact that the true heir is hidden?
posted by nubs at 9:16 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I might be mis-remembering or conflating some stuff, but I took Melisandre's comments to be a bit more ominous in terms of Shireen's future/blood of kings kinda stuff; a subtle point to Selyse that Shireen is important and useful because of that value. But then I'm inclined to read the worst into Melisandre/Selyse.
If they're going to do Aegon, having him hiding in Dorne would be the easiest way for them to pull it off.
Exactly what I am thinking; Bashir Martell rounds up the Sand Snakes and the reveal here is not the failed, planned marriage between Viserys and Arianne (is Arianne even going to show up?) but that they are hiding Aegon.
Although if they are doing that, then I don't get the whole Viserys/Danerys show in Essos, because Aegon would take precedence in the line of succession, correct? Aegon is the son of the Crown Prince, Viserys is the second son of the King. Or would the hope be that Viserys raises the army of Dothraki which joins with the Dornish to seat Aegon, and Viserys becomes disposable at that point - an effective distraction from the fact that the true heir is hidden?
posted by nubs at 9:16 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
also did the sam & gilly & coldhands thing happen on the show? i feel like it did but idk.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:16 AM on May 4, 2015
posted by poffin boffin at 9:16 AM on May 4, 2015
I was upset with Barristan getting cut down, but I appreciated the choreography; convincing handling of a sword for close quarters combat. He may be carrying a lot of years but damn but does he still have good form.
posted by porpoise at 9:16 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by porpoise at 9:16 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
show gendry is still in a rowboat somewhere but where is book gendry?
Book Gendry was last seen by Brienne working as the smith at the inn at the crossroads; he kills Biter when Biter and Rorge attack Brienne.
posted by nubs at 9:18 AM on May 4, 2015
Book Gendry was last seen by Brienne working as the smith at the inn at the crossroads; he kills Biter when Biter and Rorge attack Brienne.
posted by nubs at 9:18 AM on May 4, 2015
I might be mis-remembering or conflating some stuff, but I took Melisandre's comments to be a bit more ominous in terms of Shireen's future/blood of kings kinda stuff; a subtle point to Selyse that Shireen is important and useful because of that value. But then I'm inclined to read the worst into Melisandre/Selyse.
yeah, i totally assume that Mel wants to use Shireen for horrible firey magicks and that Selyse is 100% okay with that.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:20 AM on May 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
yeah, i totally assume that Mel wants to use Shireen for horrible firey magicks and that Selyse is 100% okay with that.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:20 AM on May 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
No Coldhands on the Show. I would like Sam & Gilly's loveboat scene from the books to happen, but I don't think that will happen; it seems like the whole Oldtown plot is out of the show.
I wonder if book Blackfish will show up in the Vale -- he served there for 15 years, and he knows that Petyr (the ostensible Lord Paramount of the Riverlands -- thus displacing the Tullys in the new order of things) is not popular with some of the other lords. Maybe a conspiracy with Yohn Royce and Shadrach the Mad Mouse to rescue Sansa?
If we are doing casting from the Star Trek roster (Alexander Siddig as Doran), I would like to see Patrick Stewart, but he's way too expensive and I don't know whom he could portray.
(Colm Meaney as Howland Reed?)
posted by dhens at 9:21 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I wonder if book Blackfish will show up in the Vale -- he served there for 15 years, and he knows that Petyr (the ostensible Lord Paramount of the Riverlands -- thus displacing the Tullys in the new order of things) is not popular with some of the other lords. Maybe a conspiracy with Yohn Royce and Shadrach the Mad Mouse to rescue Sansa?
If we are doing casting from the Star Trek roster (Alexander Siddig as Doran), I would like to see Patrick Stewart, but he's way too expensive and I don't know whom he could portray.
(Colm Meaney as Howland Reed?)
posted by dhens at 9:21 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Man, I'm gonna be mad if the Oldtown plot is out of the show, if for no other reason than that's where we see Jaqen again in the books and he seems pretty freaking mysterious and sinister in them.
posted by KathrynT at 9:25 AM on May 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 9:25 AM on May 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
(is Arianne even going to show up?)
I'm wondering about that myself! And if not, what are they planning on doing with Myrcella?
posted by corb at 9:37 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm wondering about that myself! And if not, what are they planning on doing with Myrcella?
posted by corb at 9:37 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
No Arianne on the show, and no Quentyn either. Ellaria is playing the role of the revenge-minded Dornishwoman instead of Arianne. Who knows what will happen with Myrcella? The Dorne plot is diverging a lot from the books.
PS: The show never mentioned that Joff took out the hit on Bran.
PPS: Apparently Balon Greyjoy is still the King of the Iron Islands in the show? They had Stannis throw the three leeches on the brazier but Balon has yet to meet with a mysterious fall.
posted by dhens at 9:41 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
PS: The show never mentioned that Joff took out the hit on Bran.
PPS: Apparently Balon Greyjoy is still the King of the Iron Islands in the show? They had Stannis throw the three leeches on the brazier but Balon has yet to meet with a mysterious fall.
posted by dhens at 9:41 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think so? I also don't think Lysa ever mentioned that she was the one who poisoned Jon Arryn but I can't fucking remember because i am rereading the books RIGHT NOW and it is all ahoo
posted by poffin boffin at 9:49 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:49 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Lysa does quickly mention in a convo with Petyr (in the show) that she poisoned Jon Arryn on his suggestion. I wonder how many show-only folks even remembered who Jon Arryn was.
posted by dhens at 9:50 AM on May 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by dhens at 9:50 AM on May 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
PS: The show never mentioned that Joff took out the hit on Bran.
To be honest, I'm not sure how you would - figuring it out was more a bit of insight on the parts of Tyrion and Jaime that they never really discussed or did anything with IIRC.
posted by nubs at 10:55 AM on May 4, 2015
To be honest, I'm not sure how you would - figuring it out was more a bit of insight on the parts of Tyrion and Jaime that they never really discussed or did anything with IIRC.
posted by nubs at 10:55 AM on May 4, 2015
nubs: To be honest, I'm not sure how you would - figuring it out was more a bit of insight on the parts of Tyrion and Jaime that they never really discussed or did anything with IIRC.
Well, I think that in the books, it was intended as a way to make Tyrion's supposed killing of Joffrey look more plausible -- ie, the assassination attempt on Bran is what made Catelyn Stark arrest Tyrion in the first place, and start the war. Tyrion also mentions it to Jaime when Jaime releases Tyrion and they fall out over Tysha (which didn't happen on the show -- they left on good terms, and apparently Jaime only gets mad with Tyrion when Tyrion kills Tywin).
posted by dhens at 11:01 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, I think that in the books, it was intended as a way to make Tyrion's supposed killing of Joffrey look more plausible -- ie, the assassination attempt on Bran is what made Catelyn Stark arrest Tyrion in the first place, and start the war. Tyrion also mentions it to Jaime when Jaime releases Tyrion and they fall out over Tysha (which didn't happen on the show -- they left on good terms, and apparently Jaime only gets mad with Tyrion when Tyrion kills Tywin).
posted by dhens at 11:01 AM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm actually really wondering when that reveal about Tysha is going to happen, given that Jaime and Tyrion are on opposite continents.
posted by corb at 11:02 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 11:02 AM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
when that reveal about Tysha is going to happen
I assume half past never. The last time D&D mentioned her (not even by name) was in the meeting in mid-Season 3 where Tywin announces that Tyrion will marry Sansa. I think show Tyrion is supposed to be sad about Shae instead.
posted by dhens at 11:07 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I assume half past never. The last time D&D mentioned her (not even by name) was in the meeting in mid-Season 3 where Tywin announces that Tyrion will marry Sansa. I think show Tyrion is supposed to be sad about Shae instead.
posted by dhens at 11:07 AM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, it's not going to happen, and it remains the change that I'm probably the most miffed about (as hard as I'm working to view these as two separate pieces of entertainment). The lack of the Tysha reveal in the show just changes everything about Tyrion's motivations during his escape, in addition to being the thing that burns his final bridge with the one family member he thought he could always trust.
posted by nubs at 11:34 AM on May 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by nubs at 11:34 AM on May 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Just, just watched "The Children" again this morning (catching my gf up on the show) and had to explain what really happens in that escape scene.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:38 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 11:38 AM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Growing Up On Game of Thrones: What Maisie Williams has learned from Arya Stark
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:04 PM on May 4, 2015
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:04 PM on May 4, 2015
Something that's gonna keep bugging me, speaking of "The Children," is that wayyy back then (5 episodes ago) Cersei was ready to own up to having Tommen by incest if that's what it took to keep him from marrying Margaery. Now she's all wine-and-rash-decisions, but who was twisting her arm to force the marriage to go ahead now that Tywin is no more?
posted by Navelgazer at 2:03 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 2:03 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
So Meryn Trant is going to Braavos.
Sounds like Alayne is going to get to knock one of the names off Arya's list.
posted by painquale at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sounds like Alayne is going to get to knock one of the names off Arya's list.
posted by painquale at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I could see her killing Trant and then getting punished with the blindness from the books.
posted by absalom at 3:31 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by absalom at 3:31 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am shocked and crushed to see Barristan go, but when I asked myself why this might have happened, and what it changes:
In ADwD, Dany's flight from Meereen leaves Barristan as de facto ruler. Obviously, this can't happen now. His place could be taken by Grey Worm, but I...kinda think Grey Worm may be dead, too. Daario could potentially take Barristan's place in the story, but I think you know what I'm thinking: If Jorah and Tyrion get to Meereen early enough in the season for Dany and Tyrion to bond...well...
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:21 PM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
In ADwD, Dany's flight from Meereen leaves Barristan as de facto ruler. Obviously, this can't happen now. His place could be taken by Grey Worm, but I...kinda think Grey Worm may be dead, too. Daario could potentially take Barristan's place in the story, but I think you know what I'm thinking: If Jorah and Tyrion get to Meereen early enough in the season for Dany and Tyrion to bond...well...
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:21 PM on May 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh fuuuuuuuck you're a geeeeenius. Especially along their 'why would we use X character when beloved character Y will do?' axis.
posted by corb at 5:44 PM on May 4, 2015
posted by corb at 5:44 PM on May 4, 2015
(Colm Meaney as Howland Reed?)
I love this idea so much.
posted by clockzero at 7:39 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I love this idea so much.
posted by clockzero at 7:39 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
i did not like the scenes with the unsullied attacked by the the harpies. Unsullied are supposed to kick ass even when facing unbelievable odds. They could have had the unsullied overwhelmed, but not like that.
Yeah, I'm tired of that kind of crap too. It happens everywhere, all the time. "The most deadly fighting force the world has ever known, highly disciplined", and then some Ewoks or kids with tripwires end up defeating them. I just call them all Stormtroopers now.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:56 PM on May 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I'm tired of that kind of crap too. It happens everywhere, all the time. "The most deadly fighting force the world has ever known, highly disciplined", and then some Ewoks or kids with tripwires end up defeating them. I just call them all Stormtroopers now.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:56 PM on May 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
It was, what, five unsullied against like twenty or more dudes in a close quarters ambush? And the unsullied still managed to take most of the Harpies with? That's still a pretty respectable showing.
posted by absalom at 3:58 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by absalom at 3:58 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Except; I thought they pretty much explicitly made a point that the Unsullied can fight forces many times their numbers. And most Unsullied bit it rather quickly, with Grey Worm and Barristan killed the majority of the Sons.
I mean I get it, they've got a limited budget, and closed quarters*, and plot. But it still bothered me; they could have had a scene where the Unsullied lost just as badly; but I don't but it in this particular setup. Ambush with archers or a much larger number of SotH. Something, anything. The offing of the loan Unsullied last week (was it last week?) when he was visiting the prostitute worked because his guard was down. This did not.
*i don't buy that either- they've been trained their whole lives to fight in a variety of situations, not just war. I can't imagine they'd forget this one important way of fighting.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 5:44 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I mean I get it, they've got a limited budget, and closed quarters*, and plot. But it still bothered me; they could have had a scene where the Unsullied lost just as badly; but I don't but it in this particular setup. Ambush with archers or a much larger number of SotH. Something, anything. The offing of the loan Unsullied last week (was it last week?) when he was visiting the prostitute worked because his guard was down. This did not.
*i don't buy that either- they've been trained their whole lives to fight in a variety of situations, not just war. I can't imagine they'd forget this one important way of fighting.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 5:44 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
It really felt like the Unsullied were caring the idiot ball for the sake of plot.
posted by drezdn at 6:17 AM on May 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 6:17 AM on May 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've come to peace with the fact that sometimes the show has to severely hobble and misrepresent its characters in fights in order to get from point a to point b. Which is weird, because some fights are incredibly well done, and others are Jon Snow almost losing to the fookin' legend of gin alley.
posted by codacorolla at 7:17 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 7:17 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it was surprising seeing the Unsullied taken down by dudes with short swords. Just an episode or two ago, a bunch of Unsullied smoothly forming up with their shields overlapping and getting Dany the fuck out of dodge in basically a Roman testudo done with hoplite shields. And the Harpies were mostly using short swords. You know what has historically stopped a bunch of melee fighters with short swords? A bristling-ass wall of long spears over round shields, manned by well-trained, well-drilled soldiers used to staying the fuck together.
Arguably, there's that line about how the Unsullied are terrible peacekeepers because they have no fear, and the Sons of Harpy front liners are probably highly skilled ex-pit fighters. But JFC, there's courage, and there's confidence, and there are good soldiers, and I totally get why, from a narrative point, this had to happen, but holy shit, there is SHEER FUCKING TACTICAL STUPIDITY GREY WORM I LOVE YOU BABY WHY DIDN'T YOU GIVE THE ORDER TO FORM THE FUCK UP JUST BECAUSE YOU ONLY HAVE A HALF-DOZEN DUDES AND NOT A FULL PHALANX.
If the show had killed Grey Worm in that skirmish, like it initially seemed they wanted to, I might have had to break some things from the sheer fucking waste.
On the other hand, Barristan died like a badass, and Grey Worm lives to fight another day, and oh my God, next episode looks like it's going to have a lot of Sansaaaaaaaaaaa.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:21 AM on May 5, 2015 [8 favorites]
Arguably, there's that line about how the Unsullied are terrible peacekeepers because they have no fear, and the Sons of Harpy front liners are probably highly skilled ex-pit fighters. But JFC, there's courage, and there's confidence, and there are good soldiers, and I totally get why, from a narrative point, this had to happen, but holy shit, there is SHEER FUCKING TACTICAL STUPIDITY GREY WORM I LOVE YOU BABY WHY DIDN'T YOU GIVE THE ORDER TO FORM THE FUCK UP JUST BECAUSE YOU ONLY HAVE A HALF-DOZEN DUDES AND NOT A FULL PHALANX.
If the show had killed Grey Worm in that skirmish, like it initially seemed they wanted to, I might have had to break some things from the sheer fucking waste.
On the other hand, Barristan died like a badass, and Grey Worm lives to fight another day, and oh my God, next episode looks like it's going to have a lot of Sansaaaaaaaaaaa.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:21 AM on May 5, 2015 [8 favorites]
You also have to think that if they're forming squads to patrol the narrow streets of a city where they're hated by something approaching 50% of the population, then they would drill in close quarters combat... exactly like what they faced in the Greyworm ambush.
But, yeah, that had to happen, and so it did. I just wish they'd put a little more thought into it.
posted by codacorolla at 7:25 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
But, yeah, that had to happen, and so it did. I just wish they'd put a little more thought into it.
posted by codacorolla at 7:25 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, as usual, the Tyrells made a strong fucking showing in limited screentime. Daddy Tyrell couldn't buy a clue with all the gold in the Tyrell banks, and I'm actually delighted that the show took the option of having the Faith Militant go after Loras -- not only does it make what happens to Cersei stand out more, in a narrative sense, but when was the last time you saw dudes get placed in peril so that their lady relations can wreck shop?
Because my God, Margaery is furious, and are we going to get Diana Riggs??????????
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:30 AM on May 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
Because my God, Margaery is furious, and are we going to get Diana Riggs??????????
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:30 AM on May 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
The Unsullied losing doesn't bother me. In the end Grey Worm was standing against a dozen or so Harpies before Barristan came in a d dealt with about half. Greyworm, though badly injured, dealt with 4 or 5 Harpies. So yeah, still bad ass, but overwhelming numbers in close quarters can be hard to beat.
Plus it works themematically. Even if Danny could control the Dragons, that isn't a guaranteed win. Remeber, Dorne was never defeated, not even by dragons.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 AM on May 5, 2015
Plus it works themematically. Even if Danny could control the Dragons, that isn't a guaranteed win. Remeber, Dorne was never defeated, not even by dragons.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 AM on May 5, 2015
I guess we'll see if it was necessary to get from A to B. I think it's more likely it's just some cheap drama enhancement for Selmy's exit and to emphasize Meereen is out of control. Which I think they could have done without making the Unsullied look like a bunch of newbs. On top of that, the fight was pretty uninspired. If the Unsullied had tried some tactical anything, they could have still died and the fight would have at least been interesting. (As a minor thing, the music change when Selmy joined the fight was not good and threw me off the scene entirely.) Just not a good action scene and no real excuse for it.
Feeling kind of meh after this episode. I'm not just talking about the action; there's a lot of pairing off going on right now, a lot of direct and artless one on one chats carrying a lot of the load.
Last nit: did anyone else feel like they downplayed Sansa's return to Winterfell too much over the last couple episodes? She was suddenly just kinda there. I feel like they needed a scene where she sees it in the distance, wanders around the Godswood... something. If there was such a thing, I missed it! So it feels like she's in some dreary courtyard dimension that could be anywhere north of King's Landing, having those one-on-one chats. There are little things that signify and make the close watchers clap their hands (with helpful reminders in the previously), but I think they needed a big "Hey viewers, we're back in Winterfell!" I don't think to Sansa it would feel like "same shit, different castle" (even if it is, in a way), which is sort of how they are portraying it.
posted by nom de poop at 8:26 AM on May 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
Feeling kind of meh after this episode. I'm not just talking about the action; there's a lot of pairing off going on right now, a lot of direct and artless one on one chats carrying a lot of the load.
Last nit: did anyone else feel like they downplayed Sansa's return to Winterfell too much over the last couple episodes? She was suddenly just kinda there. I feel like they needed a scene where she sees it in the distance, wanders around the Godswood... something. If there was such a thing, I missed it! So it feels like she's in some dreary courtyard dimension that could be anywhere north of King's Landing, having those one-on-one chats. There are little things that signify and make the close watchers clap their hands (with helpful reminders in the previously), but I think they needed a big "Hey viewers, we're back in Winterfell!" I don't think to Sansa it would feel like "same shit, different castle" (even if it is, in a way), which is sort of how they are portraying it.
posted by nom de poop at 8:26 AM on May 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm really sad that we won't get the Barristan vs. Khrazz fight.
posted by drezdn at 9:02 AM on May 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 9:02 AM on May 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
nom de poop - that was brought up in the show-only thread for the prior episode, where it's "Hey, there's Moat Cailin" and suddenly "It's the Boltons in their new home, Winterfell. Boltons, meet Lady Sansa. Lady Sansa the Black, meet the flayers of people who don't pay their taxes."
Moat Cailin from a distance and inside Winterfell looked like they could be the same place, given how dark and gloomy they both are.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:39 AM on May 5, 2015
Moat Cailin from a distance and inside Winterfell looked like they could be the same place, given how dark and gloomy they both are.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:39 AM on May 5, 2015
Oh, man, so excited at the prospect of Diana Riggs returning.
I gotta give credit to the dude playing Mace Tyrell. He makes the character's cluelessness so endearing. I roll my eyes and facepalm at his utterances and antics a lot, but at the same time, I'm praying to the old and new gods to keep him safe because I find him lovable.
Agree that they could have had the Unsullied put up a much better fight and still die.
Finally, my mancrush on Nikolaj Colster-Waldau continues to grow. I use to think of him as a poor man's Viggo Mortensen, but I'm digging him so very much as Jaime that I will have to cut somebody if he's one of the characters that dies in the show while his book counterpart lives on.
posted by lord_wolf at 9:45 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I gotta give credit to the dude playing Mace Tyrell. He makes the character's cluelessness so endearing. I roll my eyes and facepalm at his utterances and antics a lot, but at the same time, I'm praying to the old and new gods to keep him safe because I find him lovable.
Agree that they could have had the Unsullied put up a much better fight and still die.
Finally, my mancrush on Nikolaj Colster-Waldau continues to grow. I use to think of him as a poor man's Viggo Mortensen, but I'm digging him so very much as Jaime that I will have to cut somebody if he's one of the characters that dies in the show while his book counterpart lives on.
posted by lord_wolf at 9:45 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ah I see it wasn't just me, thanks.
posted by nom de poop at 9:46 AM on May 5, 2015
posted by nom de poop at 9:46 AM on May 5, 2015
Thing to keep in mind is that GoT, the show, was never good with battle choreography. The Battle of Blackwater was boring and laughable. Most other battles, we only see the aftermath (Stannis defeating the Free Folk, most of Robb's campaign, the aftermath of the Red Wedding and the Bolton's campaign).
Oddly enough, the fight choreography isn't terrible; Bronn's duel(s), Brienne and Sandor, Oberyn and Gregor.
I'm ambivalent about Jon's and Mr. Crazypants Skulldrinker's melee. The Ironborn's raids didn't leave a strong impression with me.
But the battle scenes, of which I count the Sons of the Harpy's uprising, are relatively anemic especially compared to a show like Vikings.
posted by porpoise at 12:22 PM on May 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oddly enough, the fight choreography isn't terrible; Bronn's duel(s), Brienne and Sandor, Oberyn and Gregor.
I'm ambivalent about Jon's and Mr. Crazypants Skulldrinker's melee. The Ironborn's raids didn't leave a strong impression with me.
But the battle scenes, of which I count the Sons of the Harpy's uprising, are relatively anemic especially compared to a show like Vikings.
posted by porpoise at 12:22 PM on May 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
He makes the character's cluelessness so endearing. I roll my eyes and facepalm at his utterances and antics a lot, but at the same time, I'm praying to the old and new gods to keep him safe because I find him lovable.
I want a Tyrell multiple-camera sitcom SO BAD. Now starring Mace as the clueless dad! Alerie as the long-suffering mom! Olenna as the acid-tongued mother-in-law! Loras as the good-natured jock, and Margaery as the smart-aleck class president social striver.
8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific, on ABC this fall, Growing Strong!
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:22 PM on May 5, 2015 [13 favorites]
I want a Tyrell multiple-camera sitcom SO BAD. Now starring Mace as the clueless dad! Alerie as the long-suffering mom! Olenna as the acid-tongued mother-in-law! Loras as the good-natured jock, and Margaery as the smart-aleck class president social striver.
8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific, on ABC this fall, Growing Strong!
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:22 PM on May 5, 2015 [13 favorites]
It's not just the Unsullied tactics that bother me, now I think about it. You're facing guerrilla warfare. Do you:
a) Send your best knight and trusted advisor wandering around the city on his own where anyone could kill him from behind?
b) Do literally anything else?
From a plot/narrative point of view it makes sense to kill Barristan. But the internal logic makes zero sense.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:16 PM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
a) Send your best knight and trusted advisor wandering around the city on his own where anyone could kill him from behind?
b) Do literally anything else?
From a plot/narrative point of view it makes sense to kill Barristan. But the internal logic makes zero sense.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:16 PM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's not just the Unsullied tactics that bother me, now I think about it. You're facing guerrilla warfare. Do you:
a) Send your best knight and trusted advisor wandering around the city on his own where anyone could kill him from behind?
b) Do literally anything else?
Now that I think about it, this really bugs me too, mostly because they could have made it work and be more narratively compelling than they did. Back when they were at the gates of Meereen, Daario (because we tragically have no Strong Belwas in the show) stood as Dany's champion because Ser Barristan was too valuable a Queensguard and Advisor to risk (as was Ser Jorah.) The books do an excellent job of mounting tension with Dany and Daario's affair (in part because of, you know, that whole marriage to Hizdahr, but also because Daario never quite feels trustworthy) and Dany choosing Ser Barristan to go out and handle this problem instead of Daario could have meant a lot.
I also think that the direction was mostly fine, here, but had an unfortunate effect that any director would have trouble seeing coming, simply by the fact of them having directed it themselves. Basically, the Unsullied are supposed to be caught with their pants down here - it can happen to any great or even elite unit - and that's depicted decently well with how the trap is set up, but in the moment where our hearts are supposed to sink as we realize how fucked they are, we are instead thinking, "Is that the same prostitute from the first episode of the season?" And so we miss the big emotional beat that makes the rest of the sequence "feel" right.
I think.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:12 PM on May 6, 2015
a) Send your best knight and trusted advisor wandering around the city on his own where anyone could kill him from behind?
b) Do literally anything else?
Now that I think about it, this really bugs me too, mostly because they could have made it work and be more narratively compelling than they did. Back when they were at the gates of Meereen, Daario (because we tragically have no Strong Belwas in the show) stood as Dany's champion because Ser Barristan was too valuable a Queensguard and Advisor to risk (as was Ser Jorah.) The books do an excellent job of mounting tension with Dany and Daario's affair (in part because of, you know, that whole marriage to Hizdahr, but also because Daario never quite feels trustworthy) and Dany choosing Ser Barristan to go out and handle this problem instead of Daario could have meant a lot.
I also think that the direction was mostly fine, here, but had an unfortunate effect that any director would have trouble seeing coming, simply by the fact of them having directed it themselves. Basically, the Unsullied are supposed to be caught with their pants down here - it can happen to any great or even elite unit - and that's depicted decently well with how the trap is set up, but in the moment where our hearts are supposed to sink as we realize how fucked they are, we are instead thinking, "Is that the same prostitute from the first episode of the season?" And so we miss the big emotional beat that makes the rest of the sequence "feel" right.
I think.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:12 PM on May 6, 2015
I just rewatched the sequence. It works fine. Of course the Unsullied aren't going to retreat, this is the enemy that they've looking for. So they fight. But the overwhelming in numbers in the tight quarters play against them and it's just a slaughter. The Harpies were smart, they put at least 3 or 4 of themselves against each Unsullied, and it's reasonable that it worked, just as it's reasonable that only Greyworm survived by the luck of Barrinston appearing.
The scene works
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:19 PM on May 6, 2015
The scene works
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:19 PM on May 6, 2015
The more I think about it, the more I wonder where this season will end. I went into it presuming it would take us through A Dance with Dragons, but it feels like a lot of stories would have to get extremely compressed for that to happen.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:03 PM on May 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:03 PM on May 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
We have six episodes left... let's see...
NORTH
Jon has to make nice with the wildlings while pissing off the Brothers and then get stabbed.
Stannis has to ride out, possibly buddy up with the various Northmen, attack the Boltons, and win, saving Sansa. Possibly the Wildling infiltration will also happen, or possibly they will change this and work Brienne in.
Will Sam and Gilly go south to Oldtown still?
I have no idea if they will work in Davos going to chillax with Wyman Manderly, though I will be sad if they cut it because PIES.
I also have no idea if they will remember that Asha exists, they seem to have abandoned the SquidVikings entirely. There's a lot of plot around them in books 4 and 5...
SOUTH
The Sand Snakes and Ellaria (who is apparently replacing Arianne) need to declare Myrcella queen and, since Jamie and Bronn are totally off-book at this point, who knows how the rest of this plot will play out?
MIDDLE BIT
Lady Stoneheart, whither art thou
KING'S LANDING
Cersei has to keep being unstable, piss off the Iron Bank causing unrest etc, get arrested, have her Naked Walk o' Shame, and possibly they will go ahead and introduce Robert "tha zombert" Strong.
They may or may not have Margaery arrested as well, I can't tell if Loras is meant to be replacing her or not.
Littlefinger is coming, which is off-book.
I guess now that Tyrion has been kidnapped, Varys can still come back and stab Kevan?
BRAAVOS
Arya, who is actually still in the third book plotwise at this point, needs to street urchin it up, probably kill Janos Slynt (in place of Whoever-The-Fuck from the books), get blinded, get her Daredevil on, get unblinded, kill that merchant, and become an apprentice Faceless Chick.
MEREEN
The city needs to become besieged, probably just by the other cities Dany conquered, and (possibly) plague needs to show up too.
Dany needs to marry Whatever zo Richdude, then open the fighting pits and be flown away by Drogon, and then possibly meet that khal dude she swore to kill horribly. I personally DEMAND and INSIST that her story go slightly beyond that point this season.
Since Selmy is probably super dead now, someone else will need to try to help Mereen survive, which, see below.
MEREEN ROAD TRIPS
Jorah and Tyrion still need to get abducted and sold, and then if the showrunners are merciful they will actually have Tyrion meet Dany this season because lord that was annoying.
I strongly suspect Victarion and Quentyn will be cut. Fucking HOPEFULLY they are cutting Aegon and Jon Connington because jfc. I bet they cut Penny as well though maybe not. There is a lot of fat that could be lost across the Narrow Sea.
JUST IN GENERAL
Winter has to Come, probably in the last episode.
---
Fucking christ that took like an hour. Did I miss anything?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:05 PM on May 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
NORTH
Jon has to make nice with the wildlings while pissing off the Brothers and then get stabbed.
Stannis has to ride out, possibly buddy up with the various Northmen, attack the Boltons, and win, saving Sansa. Possibly the Wildling infiltration will also happen, or possibly they will change this and work Brienne in.
Will Sam and Gilly go south to Oldtown still?
I have no idea if they will work in Davos going to chillax with Wyman Manderly, though I will be sad if they cut it because PIES.
I also have no idea if they will remember that Asha exists, they seem to have abandoned the SquidVikings entirely. There's a lot of plot around them in books 4 and 5...
SOUTH
The Sand Snakes and Ellaria (who is apparently replacing Arianne) need to declare Myrcella queen and, since Jamie and Bronn are totally off-book at this point, who knows how the rest of this plot will play out?
MIDDLE BIT
Lady Stoneheart, whither art thou
KING'S LANDING
Cersei has to keep being unstable, piss off the Iron Bank causing unrest etc, get arrested, have her Naked Walk o' Shame, and possibly they will go ahead and introduce Robert "tha zombert" Strong.
They may or may not have Margaery arrested as well, I can't tell if Loras is meant to be replacing her or not.
Littlefinger is coming, which is off-book.
I guess now that Tyrion has been kidnapped, Varys can still come back and stab Kevan?
BRAAVOS
Arya, who is actually still in the third book plotwise at this point, needs to street urchin it up, probably kill Janos Slynt (in place of Whoever-The-Fuck from the books), get blinded, get her Daredevil on, get unblinded, kill that merchant, and become an apprentice Faceless Chick.
MEREEN
The city needs to become besieged, probably just by the other cities Dany conquered, and (possibly) plague needs to show up too.
Dany needs to marry Whatever zo Richdude, then open the fighting pits and be flown away by Drogon, and then possibly meet that khal dude she swore to kill horribly. I personally DEMAND and INSIST that her story go slightly beyond that point this season.
Since Selmy is probably super dead now, someone else will need to try to help Mereen survive, which, see below.
MEREEN ROAD TRIPS
Jorah and Tyrion still need to get abducted and sold, and then if the showrunners are merciful they will actually have Tyrion meet Dany this season because lord that was annoying.
I strongly suspect Victarion and Quentyn will be cut. Fucking HOPEFULLY they are cutting Aegon and Jon Connington because jfc. I bet they cut Penny as well though maybe not. There is a lot of fat that could be lost across the Narrow Sea.
JUST IN GENERAL
Winter has to Come, probably in the last episode.
---
Fucking christ that took like an hour. Did I miss anything?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:05 PM on May 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Jorah being sold into slavery is ironic and all, but to be honest Tyrion-in-the-slave-circus was just a misery for me as a reader, and I'd be delighted to see it cut like the (quite frankly) wheel-spinning BS it was. Keep the greyscale stuff (I think this is a given, considering how much greyscale's been discussed this year), but please just get Tyrion to the fireworks factory. GRRM teasing Tyrion meeting Dany for 1685 pages and not delivering was like, come ON, dude.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:26 PM on May 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:26 PM on May 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of beats missing right now for me. I get what they are trying to do - we are in season 5, they have what? 7 seasons? So, 26 episodes to go. Martin has infinite space to tell his story (and yes, that is a problem), but they have 26 hours left to bring everything to a conclusion.
So they are moving quick to get players where they need to be, cutting whatever might be "cruft" along the way, so that everything gets done. It means eliminating things like the Ironborn, Aegon, Arianne and Quentyn, Littlefingers plot in the Vale, and some long journeys. I get that, and I can live with some of the cuts and very much welcome some of the others. It means apparently dropping the Ironborn like a hot potato after spending some wonderful moments actually making them interesting, but whatever. I'm not holding them to the books, just miss the bits of world building that were started and are now abandoned.
But...it means some people apparently have to carry the idiot ball to make the pieces move they way they need to. Littlefinger has carried it too often in my opinion - last season with his apparent "geez, Lords of the Vale, I don't know what to say to your painfully obvious questions about what happened" so that Sansa could come to the rescue along with his "ok, let's marry Sansa to the Boltons and, yeah, I'll just leave her alone with them too". Now Dany got to carry it big time with sending Barristan out alone - they had just finished talking about how dangerous the streets were, and you send your top adviser who has been at your side non stop out alone. Buh? But getting rid of Barristan makes it easier to bring Tyrion and Varys in, so let's do that.
That's what worries me - in the rush to move things around to set the board for the final moves, the idiot ball will be passed around and eventually, because everyone has touched it, it will all come crashing down. The emotional beats of moments like the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding and the Blackwater worked because we were invested in the characters on screen because they felt real; we had spent time with them, we hated and loved and loathed and cared.
Will the unfolding of events in Winterfell resonate as hard if we don't have things like the slow build towards the boiling point, with Manderly and Frey Pie, and instead we get Sansa leading a revolt inside Winterfell that ends with heads being hacked off - because time wise, that might be what needs to happen? What if Theon's arc ends with him giving himself to save Sansa instead of him hobbled and broken and yet somehow more whole than he has ever been as a prisoner of Stannis, because he acted to save a girl that no one really cares about besides him? Would these things save time and set up the end? Yes. Can they be done in a way that satisfies and resonates and gives the viewer that moment of joy or rage or shock or whatever that the show has done very well in the first four seasons? I don't know because I don't know if they have the time to set these pieces up so that the impacts are as hard or if we will care as much. I hope so. I really do.
But I found the death of Barristan to be a "huh" moment, not one that provoked anything beyond a mild curiosity as to why ending his arc now helps things in terms of Dany's storyline. I can't help but think it should've been more; that they were trying for more in giving Barristan his heroic final fight; and that it fell flat.
posted by nubs at 7:56 PM on May 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
So they are moving quick to get players where they need to be, cutting whatever might be "cruft" along the way, so that everything gets done. It means eliminating things like the Ironborn, Aegon, Arianne and Quentyn, Littlefingers plot in the Vale, and some long journeys. I get that, and I can live with some of the cuts and very much welcome some of the others. It means apparently dropping the Ironborn like a hot potato after spending some wonderful moments actually making them interesting, but whatever. I'm not holding them to the books, just miss the bits of world building that were started and are now abandoned.
But...it means some people apparently have to carry the idiot ball to make the pieces move they way they need to. Littlefinger has carried it too often in my opinion - last season with his apparent "geez, Lords of the Vale, I don't know what to say to your painfully obvious questions about what happened" so that Sansa could come to the rescue along with his "ok, let's marry Sansa to the Boltons and, yeah, I'll just leave her alone with them too". Now Dany got to carry it big time with sending Barristan out alone - they had just finished talking about how dangerous the streets were, and you send your top adviser who has been at your side non stop out alone. Buh? But getting rid of Barristan makes it easier to bring Tyrion and Varys in, so let's do that.
That's what worries me - in the rush to move things around to set the board for the final moves, the idiot ball will be passed around and eventually, because everyone has touched it, it will all come crashing down. The emotional beats of moments like the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding and the Blackwater worked because we were invested in the characters on screen because they felt real; we had spent time with them, we hated and loved and loathed and cared.
Will the unfolding of events in Winterfell resonate as hard if we don't have things like the slow build towards the boiling point, with Manderly and Frey Pie, and instead we get Sansa leading a revolt inside Winterfell that ends with heads being hacked off - because time wise, that might be what needs to happen? What if Theon's arc ends with him giving himself to save Sansa instead of him hobbled and broken and yet somehow more whole than he has ever been as a prisoner of Stannis, because he acted to save a girl that no one really cares about besides him? Would these things save time and set up the end? Yes. Can they be done in a way that satisfies and resonates and gives the viewer that moment of joy or rage or shock or whatever that the show has done very well in the first four seasons? I don't know because I don't know if they have the time to set these pieces up so that the impacts are as hard or if we will care as much. I hope so. I really do.
But I found the death of Barristan to be a "huh" moment, not one that provoked anything beyond a mild curiosity as to why ending his arc now helps things in terms of Dany's storyline. I can't help but think it should've been more; that they were trying for more in giving Barristan his heroic final fight; and that it fell flat.
posted by nubs at 7:56 PM on May 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think Jon is going to personally lead Rangers to Hardhome, and if he gets stabbed, that's where it happens.
posted by drezdn at 5:08 AM on May 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by drezdn at 5:08 AM on May 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
showbiz_liz's summary made me realize that the moment I'm most looking forward to seeing on the screen (but wouldn't be surprised if it was cut since they seem to be leaving out most of the Stark warging) is when she uses the cat's vision to whomp on the kindly man.
posted by xorry at 6:24 AM on May 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by xorry at 6:24 AM on May 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
showbiz_liz: Interesting observations, but a few things:
Jon killed Janos Slynt already (alas, with no "Edd, fetch me a block").
Arya will probably kill Meryn Trant in Braavos (I think this, as well as Mace Tyrell and not Harys Swyft heading to Braavos, is standing in for some of the things that happened in the Mercy [Arya] sample chapter from The Winds of Winter that GRRM released last year.)
I think the Oldtown plot is not happening. I also don't think Wyman Manderly is happening (which makes me super sad) since he hasn't been cast, nor have the Greyjoy bros or Penny.
"Yezzan" has been cast, which makes me hope that we will see Tyrion and Jorah in slavery.
SPOILER: Some released production stills show Tyrion, Jorah, and Dany in the pits in Meereen.
A lot of the show-only viewers have picked up on the fact that Qyburn is turning Gregor Clegane into some kind of Frankenstein thing -- in the last episode of season 4, Cersei and Qyburn talk about it while Qyburn has all kinds of stuff hooked up to Gregor. Pycelle fulminates against this affront to gods and men.
I don't know if the Dornishwomen will crown Myrcella -- it seems more like they want to kill her (perhaps taking the role of Gerold Dayne from the books). Nevertheless I think someone will try to crown her (Trystane??), because they left in Maggy the Frog's prophecy about all of Cersei's kids have crowns (and shrouds).
posted by dhens at 3:18 PM on May 8, 2015
Jon killed Janos Slynt already (alas, with no "Edd, fetch me a block").
Arya will probably kill Meryn Trant in Braavos (I think this, as well as Mace Tyrell and not Harys Swyft heading to Braavos, is standing in for some of the things that happened in the Mercy [Arya] sample chapter from The Winds of Winter that GRRM released last year.)
I think the Oldtown plot is not happening. I also don't think Wyman Manderly is happening (which makes me super sad) since he hasn't been cast, nor have the Greyjoy bros or Penny.
"Yezzan" has been cast, which makes me hope that we will see Tyrion and Jorah in slavery.
SPOILER: Some released production stills show Tyrion, Jorah, and Dany in the pits in Meereen.
A lot of the show-only viewers have picked up on the fact that Qyburn is turning Gregor Clegane into some kind of Frankenstein thing -- in the last episode of season 4, Cersei and Qyburn talk about it while Qyburn has all kinds of stuff hooked up to Gregor. Pycelle fulminates against this affront to gods and men.
I don't know if the Dornishwomen will crown Myrcella -- it seems more like they want to kill her (perhaps taking the role of Gerold Dayne from the books). Nevertheless I think someone will try to crown her (Trystane??), because they left in Maggy the Frog's prophecy about all of Cersei's kids have crowns (and shrouds).
posted by dhens at 3:18 PM on May 8, 2015
Nevertheless I think someone will try to crown her (Trystane??), because they left in Maggy the Frog's prophecy about all of Cersei's kids have crowns (and shrouds).
"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds"
I see many possible ways to pull that off, especially because the books have shown a willingness to fuck with prophecy and fulfill it via multiple examples (Melisandre's description of Azor Ahai could apply to a few characters) or with obscure easily missed moments (lots of bits of Dany's prophecy appear to be happening at the end of ADwD).
Consider that Viserys got a golden crown, just not how he expected. If the marriage to Trystane goes through, she becomes a Princess of Dorne - would that count as a crown?
posted by nubs at 4:05 PM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds"
I see many possible ways to pull that off, especially because the books have shown a willingness to fuck with prophecy and fulfill it via multiple examples (Melisandre's description of Azor Ahai could apply to a few characters) or with obscure easily missed moments (lots of bits of Dany's prophecy appear to be happening at the end of ADwD).
Consider that Viserys got a golden crown, just not how he expected. If the marriage to Trystane goes through, she becomes a Princess of Dorne - would that count as a crown?
posted by nubs at 4:05 PM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Or:
-horrible thing happens, Tommen dies.
-this ends the fBaratheon line via Robert.
-if I have my understanding of succession law correct, Stannis, as Roberts younger brother, would inherit under Westeros law.
-Cersei, in an attempt to stave that off, invokes Dornish tradition via the Myrcella-Trystane marriage and crowns Myrcella Queen.
-horrible things happen and Myrcella dies.
I'm very confident in the horrible things happening bits.
posted by nubs at 4:24 PM on May 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
-horrible thing happens, Tommen dies.
-this ends the fBaratheon line via Robert.
-if I have my understanding of succession law correct, Stannis, as Roberts younger brother, would inherit under Westeros law.
-Cersei, in an attempt to stave that off, invokes Dornish tradition via the Myrcella-Trystane marriage and crowns Myrcella Queen.
-horrible things happen and Myrcella dies.
I'm very confident in the horrible things happening bits.
posted by nubs at 4:24 PM on May 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds"
i'm sure there has been a ton of previous discussion on this elsewhere that i have missed but surely "gold shall be their crowns" actually refers to the fact that they will all be incestuously conceived blond(e) children instead of the usual black Baratheon hair, and has nothing to do with actual king/queen crowns, no? especially since it comes right after a sentence about all of robert's bastards.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:26 PM on May 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
i'm sure there has been a ton of previous discussion on this elsewhere that i have missed but surely "gold shall be their crowns" actually refers to the fact that they will all be incestuously conceived blond(e) children instead of the usual black Baratheon hair, and has nothing to do with actual king/queen crowns, no? especially since it comes right after a sentence about all of robert's bastards.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:26 PM on May 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Why are you squeezing me with your body?" That final shot of Stannis and Shireen will end up on Arrested Westeros, mark my words.
And perhaps with a little bit of judicious censoring, Melisandre and Jon's scene would work well as a "Say goodbye to THESE!" moment.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:36 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
And perhaps with a little bit of judicious censoring, Melisandre and Jon's scene would work well as a "Say goodbye to THESE!" moment.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:36 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm intrigued by the way women seem to be acting as focal point for the action in most of the arenas now.
I also think we will surely get circus Tyrion. It's one of those moments of parallels structure that GRRM is so good at. Jeffrey's wedding features dwarf entertainers.
posted by bq at 8:39 PM on May 14, 2015
I also think we will surely get circus Tyrion. It's one of those moments of parallels structure that GRRM is so good at. Jeffrey's wedding features dwarf entertainers.
posted by bq at 8:39 PM on May 14, 2015
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posted by Justinian at 9:52 PM on May 3, 2015 [3 favorites]