Hannibal: ...And the Woman Clothed In Sun
August 6, 2015 8:11 PM - Season 3, Episode 10 - Subscribe

In which Bedelia du Maurier is cordially invited to step on me

Also the tiger thing happened and the phone phreak thing happened and the painting eating thing happened and yesss
posted by showbiz_liz (219 comments total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
*endless screaming*
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:11 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]

BTW, for reference:

Last week's painting

This week's painting
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:35 PM on August 6, 2015

That was one of the most legitimately terrifying sex scenes I have ever watched.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:59 PM on August 6, 2015

Bedelia ain't pulling any punches, is she? You're here seeing an old flame, hahahahaha. And thank you, Dr. DuMaurier, for asking the $64,000 question: Is your wife aware of how intimately you and Hannibal know each other? "She's aware enough." Oh ber-rother.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:17 PM on August 6, 2015 [7 favorites]

Very exciting episode, and duh, I should have realized they'd show this week how Francis accomplished the Hannibal call. Interesting choice to have him bump into Will at the museum: the wounded birdie who can throw you 10 feet!
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:44 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]

Her hand on his shoulder! She's such a cool cruel woman. I love you, Bedevil.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:46 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]

*endless screaming*

Well not endless. The episode was 43ish minutes long and I stopped screaming 4 or 5 after I finished watching it. My unvarnished notes because the semi-coherent flailing matters more than the past couple episodes:

- Reminder that the thing on the writer's room board for the final scene of 309 was "OH FUCK THEY'RE TALKING"

- So we open on F speech therapy which ... I wish I didn't find so creepy but that's how it's played?

- Is he fucking with the phone lines? Is this how he hacked the call? Yes. Looks like. But he places it from Hanni's office... Interesting. Routing the phone spoof through Hannibal's place is ... kind of amazing.

- And the voice change from attorney to not! RICHARD ARMITAGE. No wonder Francis was practicing.

- Of course Hanni knows what just to say... Was filming this side another moment where Armitage scared the shit out of everyone?



- Francis is the freakiest serial killer tinder date D:

- UH. The full... Dra- OMG

- HIIII GILLIAN EEEEEE (this being Gillian's return was the thing I redacted in the last thread that Bryan confirmed on twitter)

- Will. Why are you here to receive thematically imporant lecture. Go home to Molly. Throw it all away. You don't need this.

- Jesus Will. ZERO TO SHOTS FIRED. WHO DID YOU HITCH YOUR STAR TO. "I wasn't myself. You were." HOLY SHIT, GET HIM, GILLIAN. This was the "throw it back at Will 100x over if he calls Hannibal insane" aspect of things I talked about when wondering how they'd do the initial reunion convo. Gillian gives no fucks. Hannibal still sort of wants his old plaything back, even if he's going to be a bit of a dick about it.

- "You'll have to make an appointment." I LOVE YOU, MY QUEEN.

- EEEEEEEE. THEY're DOING THE KITTY SCENE. EEEEEEEEE. KITTTTYYYYY but also poor kitty :( :( :(. Holy shit these two actors. Holy. Shit.

- The piano scoring here is so beautiful. V Philip Glass imo? It's so unusual to hear music that isn't uncomfortable rhythm in this show unless it's Hannibal playing his classical music spotify.


- Reba is a way better bartender than I am lol

- Awwwww. My heart broke a little when Francis got insecure and receded into shadow. :(


- Tumblr is going to make so much out of... well. Quite a bit of what happens next.

- THE SCORE AGAIN WHILE THEY'RE doing the sex........ The part of me that understands why people make crackvids wants to reset all of this to Missy Elliott - Get Yr Freak On.mp3 I feel no shame about this.

- Jesus christ his house is NICE. I'm assuming it's the old folks home he grew up in?

- I like Denise. "I'll mace you in the face." lol. Nice substitute for Barney.


- "I'll dance at your wedding." GODDAMMIT, THIS IS TOO GOOD (and super literal from the book. Just no HAVEN'T THE USE OF MY ARMS unless I missed it.)

- "He always includes a recipe." LOL

- "You'd have it coming." WILL, GODDAMMIT. And we thought Hannibal was being a catty bitch last week. He's jealous of her. You just know it.

- JESUS FUCK, GILLIAN IN THIS THERAPY SCENE. Gillian dropping the ice queen and what she was in Europe and being smug as fuck at Will is both glorious and terrifying.


- Poor Spocklar. :( He's trying. :(


- Jesus fuck. Bedelia is no longer the scariest character on this show. Holy fucking shit. She's ... I don't even fucking know.


- ... I nearly fainted too? I didn't realize how long I was holding my breath.

- Oh my fucking god. She's telling Will and she's right and he's not going to do it. Will not listening is going to end us all.

- If there's one thing Hannibal knows, it's demonic sexuality...

- They're shooting Mads so scarily again. Human darkness. Talking darkness. Not the skull look quite. But not far off.





- They did a good job of hiding that he has his teeth in.

- ..... Fucked up thought.... Did Janice Poon make the painting he ate? ... If I was having people over to watch Hannibal most/every week, for the finale, I'd try to get a cake with the William Blake painting on it. SOMEONE WITH NON-INTERNET HANNIBAL FRIENDS SHOULD DO THAT.

- OH GOD WILL. OH GOD. (My recollection is that in the book he doesn't arrive on the scene until well after Dolarhyde's attack there.)

- Yeah, honey, no. You were not going to win that fight ever. Punching him in an elevator is not what you do to this guy.

Notes end there. THIS. FUCKING. SHOW. Coherent thoughts. Um. Eventually. Just oh god. This was everything I hoped pretty much every scene they took out of the book would be.
posted by sparkletone at 1:11 AM on August 7, 2015 [8 favorites]

Hannibal told the phone operator that he didn't have the use of his hands so please to dial the number now, thank you (such lovely manners).

This is shaping up to be the best, most literal adaptation of a book to film (tv) ever *in the best possible way* and I'm sooo soooooooo happy that I watch this show. Best final season of a tv show ever (and there's still two episodes to go!)
posted by h00py at 1:34 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

Ah, yes, you're right. I was too busy writhing around in my chair with glee, trying to think of MacGyver jokes, and enjoying Mads' Chipper Cannibal™ voice (maybe not in that order) to pick it up the first time. (Also, I was listening for "arms" not "hands.")
posted by sparkletone at 2:14 AM on August 7, 2015

Okay so I still haven't seen this, but Bedelia made Will make an appointment? do I have that right?

And spent the appointment telling him he's a pathological sick bastard?

Well, number one, that puts Bedelia one up. Number two, it sets her up to sic a violent patient, referred to her by Hannibal, back on Hannibal. The plan would seem to be to get Hannibal to kill him if she's going for perfect symmetry. Just as her plan was, in Italy, to get Hannibal to kill someone he loves and think there is no other choice. Or maybe she'd be just as glad if Will killed Hannibal. Either way, she gets her do-over.

Also Alana got her do-over. I've seen a few fans squee that she finally got to save Will Graham in ep7, that all she ever wanted was to save Will Graham. I thought "no there were other things she wanted more" but look at it this way: maybe she wanted to save Will Graham so much that she was compelled to repetitively place him in peril so he would need to be saved. First, he has to be saved from his own pathological mind and from Jack, and who better to accomplish that than Hannibal? this leads smoothly into Will needing to be saved from the electric chair. That didn't work the way she wanted it to.

Now this season we have Alana saying "Will knows what he has to do," which implies that she encouraged Will to go out and catch Hannibal. But then in ep7 she is surprised that Will got captured along with Hannibal, which is incongruent with this earlier statement, and also with her plan as she describes it: to get to Hannibal before Will did. It seems like Alana's just not really understood that in order to get to Hannibal before Will, she also needed to be tracking Will, and to all appearances that wasn't even to stop Mason from getting wind of Will's location - she just focussed on Hannibal and forgot about Will.

And then oops! once again Will is in a situation where he needs to be saved and only Alana can save him! i've read complaints about how rude Will was to Alana when she walked in and found out that Alana was behind it all along. I just... Oh mercy me, Will is rude to Alana just because she arranged his kidnapping and subsequent torture? He is displaying insufficient gratitude for the fact that she was *trying* to actually *save* him at the time? This is surely the most compelling moral violation the show has portrayed to date. Anywho, Will's crabbiness about thr general situation leads Alana to make some radical decisions and save everyone, albeit by Hannibal's hand again. so Alana saves Will Graham, and Margot as well, and that's nice because Alana's biggest sexual fantasy has always been the rescue fantasy and she managed to enact it very successfully for Margot who she was actually dating and who actually needed saving. so, yay Alana.

Chilton? He finally caught the Chesapeake Ripper and wrote his best seller, yay.

So yeah that all turned out all right. But my point is, it looks like this season is about do-overs? Repeat until your dream comes true? That is rather worrying.

Also, it must be really tough to be Will Graham and constantly have a caravan of people driving slowly behind you with megaphones yelling "you have a criminal mind" and "your marriage is a sham" and "the only lifelong relationship you can have is with Hannibal" and "every mission you undertake ends in a massive body count and it is always your fault, emotionally if not logistically" and "you're an unfit parent" and "your wife only loves you because she doesn't know you" and "it'll all end in tears you mark my words". In his position, I would feel it was possible to overemphasize these points, however valid they might seem or actually be.

And that concludes this morning's "speculating about stuff I haven't seen yet".
posted by tel3path at 4:17 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

Okay so I still haven't seen this, but Bedelia made Will make an appointment? do I have that right?

Yeah. He shows up at a lecture of hers about what it was like on her European Cannibal Vacation and losing her sense of self. Will gives her a bunch of shit about it, she takes none of it and walks out of the convo like, "[Bitch, if you want my time and that's how you're gonna be...] Make an appointment."

And then yep, they're in her appointment room at her house. Will continues to fling bitterness at her, and she again takes none of it. She says some very interesting things about herself/her motivations (I still need to think about her part of it more, and will do so when I watch a second time)... And some incredibly true things about Will losing himself in Hannibal, how dangerous and terrible that is and most especially how that was incredibly damaging for Will and yet he still finds it alluring. She has some interesting/terrifying advice for Will about what to do about Dolarhyde.

It's a pretty fucking incredible set of scenes, and a great echo/parallel of Dolarhyde and Hannibal's little phone therapy/mind palace convo earlier in the episode.
posted by sparkletone at 6:48 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

To be clear: Will doesn't give her crap publicly. She walks by him to acknowledge his presence in the same way Hannibal did to her earlier in the season. When they talk, it's after once they have the room to themselves.
posted by sparkletone at 6:54 AM on August 7, 2015

Ye gods, that whole freaky Bedelia conversation with Will, and her, um, therapeutic moments with Quinto (the V Spec. Promised Thing from the previous thread) replayed in my dreams all night, yikes.

One interesting change is that they're mixing/speeding up the events of the book relative to the ending. This means Will is getting the "he's trying to stop" info earlier, which should screw him up a lot. After Bedelia's oh-so-helpful advice about doing righteous violence and crushing birds (i.e., stomping on broken snakes), Ep 13 promises to be extremely upsetting, one way or another.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:56 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

She has some interesting/terrifying advice for Will about what to do about Dolarhyde.

And not only him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:58 AM on August 7, 2015

Best final season of a tv show ever (and there's still two episodes to go!)

Three! -- don't scare me like that!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:01 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also, from the I Love Will When He's Pissy file: “You didn’t lose yourself, Bedelia. You just crawled so far up his ass, you couldn’t be bothered.”
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:07 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

So, Will slut shames the hussy who ran off with Hannibal, the thing he most wanted and yet denied himself?

Tee hee.

So that's one for the "totally not murder husbands" file? I can't wait to see this one.
posted by tel3path at 7:20 AM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]

I have said this before, but it just keeps being more true by the episode: they have basically just started saying "you know all that subtext? Yeah that wasn't fucking subtext."

I wouldn't consider myself a 'shipper' per se, but it is now 100% impossible to deny that what Will and Hannibal have going on is romantic if not downright erotic.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:27 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]

The past few episodes, I've seen some Tumblr grousing about how the show is now "just pandering to Hannigram shippers."

That's like complaining that Pride and Prejudice is just pandering to Elizabeth/Darcy shippers.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:29 AM on August 7, 2015 [15 favorites]

Romeo and Juliet was just pandering to Romiet shippers.
posted by tel3path at 7:32 AM on August 7, 2015 [9 favorites]

So, at this point - and I'm going to consider my own vote both before and after I see this episode - hands up who now thinks the ortolan scene wasn't representative of something else that happened offscreen in another form?
posted by tel3path at 7:33 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

I, personally, really don't think the two of them have had literal sexual contact.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:44 AM on August 7, 2015 [8 favorites]

I think it's not so much that, for them, murder is a metaphor for sex - it's that, literally, murder is an erotic experience in and of itself. Every Big Hannigram Moment has centered around murder. The consummation of their relationship would be to kill together, which is why that's what Will was imagining before running off to Europe.

But as someone else said before, this is the same showrunner who built an entire show on the premise of two people who are in love but literally can't touch each other or one of them will die. The tease is always gonna be more charged than the reality.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:46 AM on August 7, 2015 [11 favorites]

Oh, and to all of those in pre-mourning: I have a rereading and rewatching plan all drawn up to carry us through until the Second Coming.

If there's still time at the end of the rewatch, we can script, enact, and film co-located season 4 episodes ourselves. Greg Nog alone proves we have enough capacity. With the combined might of our collective, no-one will ever believe it's not NBC Hannibal.

I'll take care of the costuming and makeup. It looks like we can afford a budget into the double figures.
posted by tel3path at 7:49 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

I dabbled in theater makeup in high school, and accidentally made my dad scream and jump out of his chair while trying to show him some cool gore makeup I had done. So I got that part covered!
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:54 AM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]

So, Will slut shames the hussy who ran off with Hannibal, the thing he most wanted and yet denied himself?

"Slut shames" is putting it a bit strongly (even if we take the subtext as text) of course, but it's definitely will being bitter and snotty in a way we've not seen in a while and I think it is rooted a bit in jealousy. She got to have her cake, eat the cake, do some drugs, and get away with it all. He got pushed off a train, got shot, had his head sawed open, and then had to go spend time imprisoned at Crazypants McVulgarface's Animal Farm. Not everyone got the European vacation that they wanted.
posted by sparkletone at 7:59 AM on August 7, 2015 [12 favorites]

I've seen some Tumblr grousing about how the show is now "just pandering to Hannigram shippers."

I've seen a little of this too and don't understand what show they've been watching, exactly. The bullet might've ricocheted off a few things on the way here, but this is where we've generally been aimed since that scene with Will ~backing sensually up against a ladder~ way back in season 1.

Being upset that the show's exploded its own subtext so that it can have fun messing around with throwing other things into the mix of the existing stuff is... weird to me.
posted by sparkletone at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]

Here's the question I have: if anything happens to Alana, are people going to go nuts about violence against women, fridging etc?

Because Alana's knowingly put herself at risk here. I'm not saying I want harm to come to her - I want her to carry on as she is and maybe even rid herself of the burden of Hannibal, because to all appearances she's contributing to the good of society. But she's definitely at risk and we all know it.
posted by tel3path at 8:14 AM on August 7, 2015

And yeah, saying "not everyone ships Hannigram" well maybe NBC Hannigram is not the show for those who don't. Do these people also go to Thai restaurants and scream at the chef about all the coconut and green chili and lemongrass in the food?
posted by tel3path at 8:15 AM on August 7, 2015

Here's the question I have: if anything happens to Alana, are people going to go nuts about violence against women, fridging etc?

If she dies, it will feel a lot more earned than Bev's death, but to me it will also feel like a bit of a wasted opportunity - like, now she's finally more than Will's Love Interest and then Hannibal's Love Interest and boom, death?

Besides, Hannibal has a sweet deal going as long as his jailer is terrified of him and placating him with access to books and stuff. Oh, if he gets out, she's in real danger, but I kind of doubt he'd send Dolarhyde after her. Right now she's more useful alive.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:22 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]

I always thought she was much more than that and was disguising herself as a Love Interest.
posted by tel3path at 8:24 AM on August 7, 2015

If it ends up that the only series regulars (or repeating characters) who die by the end of this season are Beverly, Abigail, and some combination of Freddie, Molly and/or Alana, then even if he throws Francis on the pyre too, Fuller would have a lot to answer for. So I'm betting Chilton will be sacrificed in place of Freddie, Molly could go either way, and Alana will be safe. And Will either kills Hannibal or ends up in an adjoining cell.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:29 AM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]

I also expect Chilton to get Freddy's death, though it might not actually be a death because it's Chilton, the human Mr. Potato Head.

No way Will kills Hannibal - remember, they didn't know they were cancelled when they wrote this season.

My guess would be that Will kills Dolarhyde in front of Molly and she freaks the fuck out and leaves him (or he leaves her).
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:34 AM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]

No way Will kills Hannibal - remember, they didn't know they were cancelled when they wrote this season.

That's why it would be "radical." Anyhow, characters don't need to be alive to be on the show, but I'm 99% likely to be wrong.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:37 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

I also expect Chilton to get Freddy's death, though it might not actually be a death because it's Chilton, the human Mr. Potato Head.

That'd be perfect -- and in keeping with Francis's efforts to be less murderous.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:40 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

My current feelings... I can imagine a scenario in which Hannibal injures Alana as a matter of course during his escape. Or that someone busting him out hurts her. I don't see the show killing her at all. She's not the slimy asshole Chilton was in the other versions (and still is to a great extent in this one). She's not been cruel, I think. As has been pointed out, she's allowing Hannibal all kinds of niceties.

Honestly, I can't see this Hannibal hunting down this Chilton currently either, exactly. I think if he's going to get his third Terrible Injury, it's going to be because Hannibal off-handedly mentions Chilton saying he was going to write a book on Dolarhyde, and Dolarhyde ... not taking this well given how he feels about the Tooth Fairy moniker. Whether Chilton was just saying that to mess with Hannibal or not is kind of immaterial. I think he was just saying it to mess with Hannibal in the moment, but why wouldn't he want to keep his gravy train rolling with another psychological expose of a killer getting a lot of press coverage? (This would put him in the Freddie role, I guess, but that doesn't mean Freddie is safe.)

Chilton will live though because Chilton always lives. We've got to keep going until he gets that hunched back Bryan "joked" about at SDCC a year or two ago.

There's a part of me that wondered when watching Will empath the murder scene in 308 that if they're willing to get that close to showing children being killed in the show if Walter is safe, but I expect that he will be. I think Molly is too. Whatever happens with them if/when (... let's be real, it's "when") Dolarhyde comes a-calling I think will be more emotional trauma than physical despite the bloodbath that ended season 2. I don't see a mic drop ending here for any of the characters (maybe for the show, future resurrection hopes notwithstanding). I'm assuming it will be incredibly painful nonetheless.

I don't see Dolarhyde surviving the season one way or another, whether it goes down like it did in the book or not. But there's just no way they kill either Will or Hannibal. Noooooo way. That's, pardon the context, cutting off your nose to ... Well. Maybe they'd do it if Hannibal visited Bryan and gave him some of what Mason had. But that's the only way I see it happening.
posted by sparkletone at 8:44 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

Or how about this: Molly kills Dolarhyde in an unexpected bloodthirsty way that makes Will think less of her, and view her as someone who was into him because of his past rather than despite it. He drops her like she's hotttt.
posted by tel3path at 8:56 AM on August 7, 2015

It's Molly who offs Dolarhyde in the book, but I don't quite think the show will be as literal with that part as they were with other things (like lots of this week's episode). Something terrible is going to happen and making Molly a killer IS tragic and would probably horribly compromise the peace Will found with her... But I dunno.

Turning her into a ~secret murder fangirl~ doesn't feel juicy or tragic enough to me.
posted by sparkletone at 9:38 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

Hmmm, what about circling back around to my idea of Alana as beautiful murder butterfly?

Because she's being all "I am resisting your influence Hannibal!" but she's mirroring him while she's doing it, so...
posted by tel3path at 9:44 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

posted by tel3path at 9:44 AM on August 7, 2015 [6 favorites]

Best Reddit comment so far: "I think [Hannibal] will not be so eager to hang with Dolarhyde after he sees how he eats pie."
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:54 AM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]

It's Molly who offs Dolarhyde in the book, but I don't quite think the show will be as literal with that part as they were with other things.

Especially after Bedelia's lovely "Tell me, is your wife aware. . . ?" it would be perfect(ly horrendous) for Molly to witness Will being the most "righteously violent" version of himself, up close and personal, in front of her kid, as the end result of all Will's "protecting" and "shielding" them from the things he doesn't want anyone (including himself) to know.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:12 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

That definitely does feel juicy and tragic enough. Satisfies the "VICTORY BUT AT WHAT COST" condition for the ending in its own way without being super literal with the source material.

As an aside: Season 1 is definitely a "nobody wins (but Hanners)!" I sort of vacillate between whether Mizumono qualifies as "VICTORY BUT AT WHAT COST" or not. In a certain sense N O B O D Y W I N S even harder than S1 (not even Hanni). But in another sense, Will's mission to out Hannibal succeeds (and does lead to him eventually being imprisoned)... At literally every single cost.
posted by sparkletone at 10:50 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

So, I do want to hear some input on this episode from people who don't know the book/movies. I'm curious how the various book scenes felt to them.

I mean, in the space of 40 minutes, we had Dolarhyde:

1. Displaying high-level knowledge of phone hacking
2. Having exclusive zoo access (they did mention the zoo once last ep, but it was presented as just an excuse he was using)
3. Living in a massive well-appointed house, which has not yet been explained
4. Dressing up in a suit in order to go eat a famous painting

Like it's all existing canon but it's a lot
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:10 AM on August 7, 2015

Ridiculous thought: end with Buffalo Bill Graham.
posted by bfranklin at 11:17 AM on August 7, 2015

No no, we all know Evil Will Graham's serial killer MO

(If he kills Dolarhyde and displays him like a dragon I will know that either I am good at analyzing TV shows, or Bryan reads my Tumblr)
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:24 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

(If he kills Dolarhyde and displays him like a dragon I will know that either I am good at analyzing TV shows, or Bryan reads my Tumblr)

That was a good post already but feels especially good to bring up again in light of some of the things Bedelia says to Will in their therapy scenes in this episode.
posted by sparkletone at 11:36 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yeah when she told him "you're able to kill because of your empathy" I fistpumped and drank some more wine
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:38 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

That certainly seems like the ideal way to stitch him up, whether or not it's been true up to now.
posted by tel3path at 11:43 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

Man, speaking of Elizabeth/Darcy, I finally got around to watching North & South on Netflix yesterday without initially realizing Richard Armitage was in it (another fantastic performance), and it's totally messing up my already complicated feelings about Francis.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:59 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think they are going to end the season on the one note they haven't used from SOTL, Hannibal escaping in a great dramatic bloodbath. Some of the blood might be Alana's.

Bedelia's voice now has a soprano girlish note Gillian wasn't projecting before. It is now clear that she is closer to Hannibal on the normal-serial killer spectrum than Will, but she is early in her Becoming. (She has killed though. Ice pick. She is probably more cool with that now than when it happened.)

If you thought the sex scene with Reba was disturbing, wait until she learns that he's the Tooth Fairy and what he really is. You hug that great big powerful purring creature and sometimes it wakes up and thinks about eating you.

Can't wait to watch it on the actual TV tomorrow night.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:08 PM on August 7, 2015

Bedelia's voice now has a soprano girlish note Gillian wasn't projecting before. It is now clear that she is closer to Hannibal on the normal-serial killer spectrum than Will, but she is early in her Becoming.

I don't see Bedelia ever becoming a serial killer in the normal sense. At least not in this setting. She never tableau'd. Will's done that twice now. She's definitely a killer and has no qualms about it if she deems it necessary but I think it doesn't... entertain her? At least not now that she's through the other side of what she went through in Europe and has seen what it's like.

I was trying to think of a good analogy for her when I was first watching the show but deleted the half-formed thought and never came back to it because I got so distracted by things that happened after that. I wish my comic book knowledge were deeper because Bedelia absolutely could be the show's most terrifying supervillain in a sense. But there's no budding curiosity or transformation for her at this point. Her curiosity's sated, imo, after Spocklar, watching Hannibal, and then "participating" with Hannibal.

She doesn't give a fuck really and is above all that at this point. But if she wasn't, everyone is screwed. Maybe even Hannibal.
posted by sparkletone at 5:32 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]

posted by The Whelk at 5:59 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


I have my own personal belief that Bedelia is more then a little responsible for Hannibal's current Becoming, like directly, as a form of therapy.
posted by The Whelk at 6:01 PM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]

"No! This is weird and culty!" Oh Spock you had no idea.
posted by The Whelk at 6:12 PM on August 7, 2015 [7 favorites]


It didn't warrant getting into my notes so I'm not sure exactly when in the episode I first had the feeling, but one of the strongest feelings I had by the end is, "Whelk is going to absolutely flip for this one."
posted by sparkletone at 6:21 PM on August 7, 2015

My beautiful shows knows what I want and what I need
posted by The Whelk at 6:24 PM on August 7, 2015

I have my own personal belief that Bedelia is more then a little responsible for Hannibal's current Becoming, like directly, as a form of therapy.

In retrospect, she definitely encouraged rather than discouraged his passionate obsession with Will.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:32 PM on August 7, 2015

In show as opposed to Harris space, I think it is entirely thinkable that Bedelia created Hannibal. Not necessarily so, but just a bon mot to consider.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:03 PM on August 7, 2015

Nah, we know he was active in Florence before he ever came to America.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:06 PM on August 7, 2015

Upon rewatch, I think Will got less beat up by his run-in with Francis than his conversation with Bedelia, Queen of the Zingers. On top of the ones already mentioned, there were:

Will: "You're the bride of Frankenstein." Bedelia: "We've both been his bride."

W: "I'm covered in scars. . . . I wasn't wearing adequate armor." B: "No. You were naked."

B: "Have you been to see him? . . . You haven't learned your lesson, have you? Or did you just miss him that much?" W: [guilty sheepish expression]
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:26 PM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

In retrospect, she definitely encouraged rather than discouraged his passionate obsession with Will.

I will say this episode changed my reading of those scenes, but without revisiting them I wouldn't say she encouraged him. In retrospect to me, she did just about the same thing she did to Hugh here. She just wasn't as mean about it. She bluntly called Hannibal on his crap knowing full well he was going to do whatever he wanted.

Unless there's some very lame reverse psychology at work here (which Hannibal should be much too smart for), telling him, "Dude. You need to drop the thing with Will. It's going to get your ass caught," in season 2 isn't exactly encouraging him to keep going. She probably wouldn't have been surprised at the time that Hannibal decided he didn't give a shit about that, or been surprised when it finally happened, or even by the way it happened. But I wouldn't say she was like, "Go on. DO IT, BRO."

She's way more bluntly discouraging Will from heading where she sees him going here though.

Bedelia "Hoe, Don't Do It" Du Maurier.
posted by sparkletone at 7:43 PM on August 7, 2015

Nah, we know he was active in Florence before he ever came to America.

Yeah but in my heD, she's the one who cultivated the Doctor Lecter Man Of Wealth And Taste persona, or encouraged the whole cannibalism MOTIF as it where, maybe she hit on eating the rude as a radical form of therapy.
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 PM on August 7, 2015

Consider all that talk in season one how B and H look like gender swapped versions of each other
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on August 7, 2015

I don't agree that Bedelia nurtured Hannibal at all. That just doesn't fit from what we've seen or what anyone's said. He's Fancy™ because that's how he was brought up. He's a cannibal because that's what he decided to do with his life or whatever. I'm pretty sure she saw through him relatively quickly, recognized the danger. She's clearly uneasy to say the very least with him before the Euro fling. The scene where she backs away from him after telling him she won't be seeing him anymore at all isn't a student turning on the teacher.

We've seen her discourage him from a number of thoughts he's having. She just never takes any active measure to stop him, which is pretty fucked up, aside from trying to warn everyone pre-Mizumono. He's not a "wounded bird to crush" but is too dangerous to be ignored.

In a certain sense, if Hannibal is Satan, Bedelia in a certain sense might be God(dess). She's mostly above it all, removed. People don't generally listen when she tells them things that are clearly true (from our semi-objective POV). The lesser beings all ignore her warnings generally speaking. She doesn't take an active hand in things except under great duress, and every time she has it's been very, very noteworthy.

The major thing missing from the metaphor is that Bedelia most definitely did not create Hannibal.
posted by sparkletone at 8:14 PM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

I mean, she is very obviously scared for her life on a number of notable occasions, but I think his specific season one THING, eating people who are rude rather then killing indiscriminately or doing art history murder scenes like he did in Florence , might have been a result of Bedelia trying to contain his evil -- not to mention she might have gotten a her cool, detected kicks from watching and observing the results, which was one of the levels* I took from the crushed bird speech "My mistake was not killing or stopping him when I had the chance cause I thought I could help."

Another form of Harm disguised as help! I mean it's a deeply fanficy leap of logic for me to make but this is the most fanficy show so ....**

*in addition to this being about Dolerhyde in the specific and Hannibal in the general.

She even gets to lampshade one of things we talked about, how Bedelia doesn't lie but chooses her words carefully , and she frequently just flat out says the truth but no one is willing to listen.

I still think about the event horizon the Veal Dinner was, Hannibal betting on her assuming it was roast girl when it wasn't. You know he never told her the truth.

Can we talk about how symbolically rich the tiger is now that we had previous animal murder metaphors and talks about big cats you can no longer play with? A sleeping tiger no less?

** an entire Bedelia narrated short story flashed into my head where she's describing treating this man moving into psychotherapy after being a surgeon and roundaboutly, not directly getting him to confess to being a serial killer ..although not for some time now , but deciding to be a good theaprist and try to focus him away from self destruction, to kill less frequently or something, partly to help him, partly to reduce the number of killings, and partly to see what he's capable of cause he's like no other person she's treated, he actually has the vampire wizard chops, so then when it gets too real or to close to her she tries to end the relationship and he responds by putting her in a cage so he has someone to talk to. It tracks the Will/Hannibal story in theme, and the larger cyclic stuff
posted by The Whelk at 9:15 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think I'm just REELING from these episodes, so much confidence! So much style! So much effortless condesecing of hours of built metaphor into a single battle of Empath Vs. Cannibal via their Way Too into Dragons Proxy while also reveling in showing a guy go to town on a priceless art object.
posted by The Whelk at 9:21 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

Let's just say that given my job in a museum collections department, this may have actually been the most horrific thing I've seen the show depict.
posted by PussKillian at 9:23 PM on August 7, 2015 [18 favorites]

I remember being annoyed in the Red a Dragon movie that he just kind of shoved it in his face -- I mean I get the acting choice, he's breathing heavily before it, clearly psyching himself up to devour -- whereas here Armitage just slowly relishes the whole experience, carefully moving across the painting to savor it, like a fine meal.

Hey now that we have two seasons worth of backstory we can make a connection between the devouring of the painting and Hannibal desire to consume Will. I love that the "We had to tell you two seasons of another story to tell you this story correctly" .

It's like a mascarpone cheesecake of theme and symbol now.
posted by The Whelk at 9:54 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

And mentioned previously but damn did I enjoy Will projecting and being all "You got to be with him and you didn't even have to suffer half the shit I had to go through!" And Bedelia countering with "Well I wasn't in love with him you dink so it was a bit easier yes."
posted by The Whelk at 10:31 PM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

(By pure happenstance I'm catching up on the Laundry series of books about civil servants who work with occult horrors and increasingly upfront is one agent assigned to a violin made of human bone that forms a telepathic link with the player, slowly seducing them into killing for them and the violin draws blood from the neck of the player and it's this horrifying nightmare object they only keep around cause it's absolutely necessary but everyone is pretty sure it's going to kill everyone.

The name our agent gives the cursed violin?

Dr. Lecter)
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 AM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

Bedlia was magnificent this episode (except for the lecture - wandering around, turning her back on the audience - how are they meant to hear what she is saying clearly?). She revealed who she is - dispassionate and frankly a bit above it all. This makes the jaunt to Florence more believable in that she went because she feared Hannibal but stayed because she didn't care about the eating people, just about not being eaten herself and about not getting blamed for anything that went wrong. She played Hannibal at his own dispassıon game and ultimately won. Now, does Hannibal admire her or think she is rude?

And I love how she called Will out - for so much of this season I have felt an implied 'feel sorry for Will he is in Hannibal's thrall' and she just calls it - you let your obsession for someone where every sign tells you he is bad for you run your life. And every chance you had to walk away you are choosing to head straight back. There comes a point where this ıs not professional interest - this is obsessıve, masochistic love. And Bedelia was always above that. Which is why Will is the whiny jealous one and Bedlia can just sit there looking smug.
posted by Megami at 5:22 AM on August 8, 2015 [5 favorites]

Another way to look at Bedelia is that she's a storm chaser. She knows the danger and power Hannibal represents better than anyone and she doesn't want to stop him, she wants to feel that power. She wants to be in his presence as he rips up buildings and leaves ruin in his wake. She knows she is putting herself in terrible danger but the thrill is worth the risk and it is a game to see if her skill can keep her alive while the tornado lays everything around her to splinters.

Now, with Hannibal locked up, she is the storm chaser wandering around the aftermath telling talk show hosts how terrifying it all was and feeling a bit empty and wondering where she can get her next fix.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:57 AM on August 8, 2015 [6 favorites]

"No! This is weird and culty!" Oh Spock you had no idea.

"This is why Scientologists hate psychiatrists!"
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:47 AM on August 8, 2015 [4 favorites]

Also, it's obvious but the lighting and similar collar make Will and Hannibal look like they're wearing the same outfit in those scenes
posted by The Whelk at 9:46 AM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think it's not so much that, for them, murder is a metaphor for sex - it's that, literally, murder is an erotic experience in and of itself.

Just look at Bedelia's face when she's killing Quinto - she's positively orgasmic, then falls back at the end sated. It's a murder that's very clearly shot as a sex scene (with more explicit penetration than is usual for network TV!). And it's terrifying.
posted by sobarel at 10:07 AM on August 8, 2015 [7 favorites]

Yeah we said before, the murders are the sex on this show, usually.

So I may have been screaming too much during the Quinto scenes but he's shouting and then ...chokes on his tongue? Like straight up has a seizure? I thought I missed something.
posted by The Whelk at 10:17 AM on August 8, 2015

It's so unusual to hear music that isn't uncomfortable rhythm in this show unless it's Hannibal playing his classical music spotify.

In that scene, the uncomfortable rhythm to me was the subtle tiger thrum that kept dropping out of the mix every time they cut over to D. It was very jarring.

So I may have been screaming too much during the Quinto scenes but he's shouting and then ...chokes on his tongue? Like straight up has a seizure? I thought I missed something.

Hannibal was feeding Bedelia a patient he knew would self-destruct in front of her. The patient mentions that he had a seizure in Hannibal's care (several different sorts, actually), was decidedly NOT OK about his psychiatrist's lack of response, then gets worked up enough complaining about his 'treatment' in front of Bedelia to actually have another seizure. Instead of doing nothing, she leaps into action!

Hannibal practically tied a bow on that gift to her.
posted by carsonb at 10:40 AM on August 8, 2015 [4 favorites]

Okay yeah I got the general idea but wondered if I missed like, a signal to trigger his seizures or something.

Also love how Will keeps saying "You where never brainwashed! You're a liar! I was brainwashed! Me!"

And then getting hit with "Yeah, did you notice how I said I was brainwashed so I could ....still be alive? And how It wasn't my choice to go on vacation? And how every single time I could run away I did? And you went back to him, willingly, TWICE. at some point you have to stop blaming the brainwashing you lovesick ass."
posted by The Whelk at 11:10 AM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

I thought the Bedilia stuff in this episode was fantastic, but the Great Red Dragon sex scene looked like it had leaked out of a portal to the Red Shoe Diaries dimension, and Dolarhyde's demon persona looked a lot like a Dio album cover.
posted by whir at 11:49 AM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

Dolarhyde's demon persona looked a lot like a Dio album cover.

Ha, there's a reason for that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:53 AM on August 8, 2015 [3 favorites]

I find it entirely appropriate at Francis' mental image is equal parts Blake and 80s Black metal.
posted by The Whelk at 2:06 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

I like that the series didn't lead us by the nose to The Tyger. The line is haunting enough even if you don't know it comes from the same person who drew the Dragon.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:36 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

also you don't need to SAY "TIGER, tiger, burning bright" when you can show a tiger, burning bright. in the next scene.
posted by The Whelk at 3:38 PM on August 8, 2015

LOL yup. I did miss the part where Reba cups the tiger's balls, giving Francis a flash of inadequacy, though.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:47 PM on August 8, 2015 [3 favorites]

The demon and the floating glowing Reba effects did make me wince a bit, although I was watching on that Youtube channel so the resolution wasn't great (and they altered the voices which definitely dims the impact). I'l see what I think when I see it again tonight because that definitely popped me out of my engagement. So cartoony.
posted by PussKillian at 4:46 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

The demon and the floating glowing Reba effects did make me wince a bit

There's been a bit of that for me the past few episodes, though the one that really struck me was the shot of "Will" outside of the Buffalo home covered in blood and moonlight. This season the difference between the effectiveness of the practical effects (like the heartdigo) and the digital effects is rather pronounced. Too bad you can't really get a living, breathing practical Blake Red Dragon.
posted by carsonb at 5:06 PM on August 8, 2015

Yeah the SFX come through really poorly on the net. I'm looking forward to 9PM CDT tonight too. 2 hours and counting...
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:06 PM on August 8, 2015

The demon and the floating glowing Reba effects did make me wince a bit

They look fine when you're not washing a trash stream copy. Not, like, OMG SUCH HIGH BUDGET, but not bad. About as good as any of the other CG effects involving people (the ones involving place, like the office/chapel blend earlier in the season generally look the best since they're much easier).

The Dio comparison for Dolarhyde's ~true form~ is super relevant though.
posted by sparkletone at 5:28 PM on August 8, 2015

Goddammit, Gillian.
posted by sparkletone at 5:58 PM on August 8, 2015 [4 favorites]

HOly WFT is that oroFACE?
posted by carsonb at 6:45 PM on August 8, 2015

That is what Gillian actually shoves her arm in when she Does The Thing to poor Spocklar. The magic of CG.

Oh my god, Richard's Dragon suit is adorable.
posted by sparkletone at 7:07 PM on August 8, 2015 [6 favorites]

Frame your date for murder
Fly to Europe; steal identities
Sneak into a zoo to pet tigers
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:24 PM on August 8, 2015 [4 favorites]


posted by poffin boffin at 7:57 PM on August 8, 2015 [4 favorites]


posted by sparkletone at 7:59 PM on August 8, 2015

also i feel like the first time around when we saw bedelia with tonguey mcchokerson that she pulled his entire severed tongue out of his throat, not just her own bloodied arm

or did i imagine this and if so wHY
posted by poffin boffin at 8:01 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

I, personally, really don't think the two of them have had literal sexual contact.

ok that's fine but i will continue thinking that hannibal has choreographed and performed a dance routine for will to yonce/partition
posted by poffin boffin at 8:03 PM on August 8, 2015 [6 favorites]

So it did not rain a drop for 5 days and just as Hannibal comes on a HUGE FREAKING THUNDERSTORM starts which disrupts the signal, since I'm on an antenna 40 miles from the transmitter farm in Chalmette. So the whole broadcast experience is like *BUFFERING* and *NO SIGNAL* except for some beautifully crisp still images and shorts shorter than your average YouTube video.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:04 PM on August 8, 2015

or did i imagine this and if so wHY

You imagined (I don't know why, maybe schedule an appointment with Bedelia). She doesn't yank it out in either, just puts her arm in ALARMINGLY far. The flip to the inside camera in this version freaked me right the fuck out. Like I involuntarily spasmed in my chair out of revulsion.
posted by sparkletone at 8:05 PM on August 8, 2015

posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

Between the various things swallowed whole and the oral fixations with paper, this episode was kind of a Freudfest.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:08 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

ok that's fine but i will continue thinking that hannibal has choreographed and performed a dance routine for will to yonce/partition

I'm sure it's a whole opera, cast of hundreds, amazing production design, pyrotechnics, choruses, the whole deal
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 PM on August 8, 2015

People just need to stop doing THINGS WITH THIER MOUTHS but that's the whole show
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

Arrgh. I also had a less than optimal experience as a tornado decided to maybe or maybe not appear somewhere southeast of here. I had a choice of a pixelated channel that was like watching glitch art or a crystal clear channel that had a really happy weatherman who went on and on during two twenty minute cut-ins. So I missed the album cover dragon, but Reba at least looked better.

Poor, poor Spocklar. This is weird and culty indeed. I wonder why Hannibal was so interested in messing with a person who apparently had no calling towards a career in art murder. I had a vague notion that Hannibal was actually a pretty effective therapist when he wanted to be and had lots of grateful wealthy clients giving him money.
posted by PussKillian at 8:18 PM on August 8, 2015

I'm sure his rich clients are easy, he can sleepwalk through that and build up his reputation while occasionally testing out Vampire Art Murder Mind Control as his hobby or setting up the Lecter Insitute For Gifted Sociopaths
posted by The Whelk at 8:26 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

AV Club loved it, Sepinwall's review is truncated due to TCA obligations but is positive.
posted by sparkletone at 9:22 PM on August 8, 2015

and there are some things I think are almost too obvious to mention but we have to cause they're so rich, like how Bedelia starts her lecture (Her Hannibal Lecter Lecture) cribbing from Dante's Inferno
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on August 8, 2015

posted by The Whelk at 9:36 PM on August 8, 2015 [3 favorites]

posted by sparkletone at 9:54 PM on August 8, 2015

in the AV CLub comments (which are if a bit wild , usually illuminating) there's some "Bedelia is just Hannibal with better impulse control" and how she's the greater monster in the show and ....they're not wrong but they're missing something important about Bedelia is that she's the other, she's not an Art Murder Vampire or Avid Fan or Murder Intern or Police. In a show obsessed with copies and mirrors and repeating patterns, she's singular and noteworthy. She's the only person to run off, to escape, and the only person aside from Freddie, who is never once shown falling for Hannibal's charms. I think Bedelia's strength comes from her coldness, her detachment, she was interested in observing what happened but she never lied to herself about what was happening. It wasn't a grand tortured romance for Dr. Du Marier, it was a chance to see something new, and maybe deal with it long enough to get the hell away.

Bedelia is the only character with no illusions, so of course no one believes her.
posted by The Whelk at 10:07 PM on August 8, 2015 [8 favorites]

Also from the AV Club Lamppost In Winter • an hour ago

All I wanted was to eat the dragon that was greater than all the other dragons and to absorb its power

also oh... Could the line "Let me help you" be the seizure trigger for Spock if so ....GAAAAHHH this SHOOOOOOOW
posted by The Whelk at 10:21 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

posted by homunculus at 11:21 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

I would like to say something insightful but I basically am just rocking back and forth whispering "my beautiful show which is too good for this world, how can they take you away from meeeeee?"

I love everything about this show so much.
posted by Stacey at 4:09 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

"This is Bob Greer of Blaine & Edwards Publishing, and despite my Celtic name I want you to ignore this heavy Baltic accent because it is not important. Please give me a home address because I know you'll spill the beans to anyone who asks."

Alana doesn't wonder since when Hannibal started chewing gum?

And yes, Hannibal would have the freedom to call his lawyer whenever necessary. They couldn't deny him that.
posted by tel3path at 7:59 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

And he's much more stilted and less charming about dancing at your wedding than Brian Cox was. Ha.
posted by tel3path at 8:00 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

That sex scene was such a wasted opportunity. Manhunter did this so much better by taking the mundane approach while showing what a transcendent experience it was for Dolarhyde. Same with the tiger. I get that they're trying to convey what the tiger feels like to Reba, and what Dolarhyde's hallucinations are showing him, so I've no objection to the hallucination of Reba per se, but the rest of it was an epic fail.
posted by tel3path at 8:02 AM on August 9, 2015

Ohh. They altered HD's makeup and I wondered why. They usually put plenty of black eyeliner on his waterline so he looks all limpid and pretty, and I would not put it past them to be heavy-handed with the mascara too.

And then they put Spocklar in his chair, wearing practically his outfit to boot. They wanted to make them look facially the same.
posted by tel3path at 8:08 AM on August 9, 2015

"How is one murderer worthy of compassion and not another?" Randal Tieeeerrrrrrr
posted by tel3path at 8:11 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

their new dog is named Randy i do not feel good about that dog's prospects
posted by tel3path at 8:11 AM on August 9, 2015

The whole "ha ha, I'm a doctor and I have all the power, I can say you're paranoid and do whatever I want to you, I don't have to take care of you, nobody will believe you" is as explicit as it's ever been. This is the version of Will Graham that confronted Hannibal directly about his shenanigans and said "get me a proper doctor"
posted by tel3path at 8:14 AM on August 9, 2015

Bedelia is encouraging Will's death wish.

Talking directly about evolution. We've heard about the need to "evolve" once before this season, where Will tells Alana she needs to "evolve", which is to "spill blood". We all know what "evolve" meant last season - it meant "regress" to your animal nature - as embodied by the cave bear, which is extinct, duh. And Alana accepted the word "evolve". Before she killed Mason she told him that she, like all of them, were dead. After she killed Mason she imprisoned herself along with Hannibal. In this world, there are no grey areas - only black and white. If you're tempted to run off with Hannibal, it's just as bad as if you had actually done so. The only defenses are self-defense (which is barely tolerated) and ignorance. The law is allowed to kill, but it isn't there to protect you, so if you're Connor Frist or Chris O'Halloran and a powerful adult coerces you to do something the implications of which you can only fleetingly grasp, but you know it's murder - well, the law can shoot at you, and they can lock you up and throw away the key, but nobody's coming to protect you when you're in trouble. There's no concept of "justifiable homicide" either. Kill to protect someone who's been directly threatened to your face by someone you know is capable of carrying out that threat, and you're exactly the same as a cannibalistic serial killer yourself. So you have a clear case of self defense? Are you sure? You better be.
posted by tel3path at 8:22 AM on August 9, 2015

Okay... Spocklar wasn't having a seizure, he was straight up choking. I don't see how that's possible given that there was nothing in his mouth while he was talking to Bedelia. A common cause of choking is talking and eating at the same time. I guess he could have been chewing gum, but it didn't look like that.

Bedelia also said to him "I'm trying to clear your airway" and was handling him and coming in close to him, which is exactly what you don't do with someone who is having a seizure, but would be appropriate if someone were choking. To go straight from there to sticking her arm down his throat is completely OTT. More than that, it *isn't physically possible*. I know doctors are bad at first aid, but not this bad.

We previously saw Bedelia passing out and then coming to. It's less clear now. I thought then, and I think now, that it's possible Hannibal induced a false memory and that this isn't what happened. I guess it's theoretically possible that Hannibal did successfully tamper with Bedelia's memories enough to alter her view of who she was and/or what she'd done, but the Bedelia shown here is a straight-up psychopath with, as said, just more impulse control than Hannibal. Since viewing herself as an oooh powerful murderess FEAR ME wouldn't exactly be ego-dystonic, so I could believe that Bedelia's remembering something that didn't happen at all.

I don't know why his throat would have spontaneously closed like that. I wonder if Hannibal, who we know is lurking just offscreen, put him in contact with some kind of allergen, but that would have other signs than the ones we saw. Maybe he was poisoned, though you'd expect them to screen for that especially since he was *supposed* to have been on prescribed meds.

But yeah, that's the best explanation I can come up with, Hannibal poisoned Spocklar, Bedelia fainted or lost consciousness in some way induced by Hannibal, and regained consciousness remembering something which didn't happen the way she remembered it. That doesn't exclude her attacking the patient, either.
posted by tel3path at 8:32 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Bedelia's invitation to crush instead of help - she's invoking Will's death wish. I thought he was suicidal earlier in the season, that seemed to pass, but I think now she's trying to reawaken it.

In S1, Will describes the Chesapeake Ripper as being one of those pathetic things occasionally born in hospitals, and left to die because it would be better off dead. If Will is the accurate profiler we're led to believe he is - and there's no reason to doubt that - and he and Hannibal are mirror images of each other, doesn't that imply that Will is also a stunted personality that should never have been allowed to survive to adulthood, and would be better off dead now? And won't he be keenly aware of that?

In the book, the staff took one look at Francis' cleft palate and they made the decision to let him die of starvation. A black female nurse comes along, defies the order and feeds him. It's another black female worker at his Grandmother's house that shows Francis love in his childhood, and from those seeds his humanity and his capacity to love Reba eventually blossom - much to everyone's misfortune.

Bedelia said that Hannibal would persuade Will to kill someone he loved, and that he would believe it was the only choice he had. She elicited the idea from Hannibal that he ought to eat Will, which would have accomplished the vengeful symmetry of getting him to kill someone he loved - except that we now know Bedelia didn't love the patient she (apparently, but apparently it is also to be taken as true) killed. Now Bedelia is apparently encouraging Will to kill Dolarhyde or Hannibal or both, and I think the best outcome from her point of view is that Will should be killed too.

At any rate, those are the values Bedelia is promulgating: never mind too broken to date, Will's too broken to live. Will, remember, is someone who admitted to Jack that he wanted to run off with Hannibal, with all that that implies. Nothing Will did made the bloodbath happen, but by admitting the desire of his heart he seems to have convinced much of the fandom that he did cause the bloodbath (if they didn't assume it already).
posted by tel3path at 8:42 AM on August 9, 2015

Hannibal splits in two when he says the Dragon is "quite sane".
posted by tel3path at 8:45 AM on August 9, 2015

no francis

that's naughty

oh dear if only that museum had Feliway plugged in on every corridor this would never have happened
posted by tel3path at 8:49 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Okay, I'm not getting the read on Bedelia's lecture that Will is being hypocritical by disapproving of it. One may or may not feel sorry for Will, but he was in fact brainwashed. That's what happened in the actual world of the show: his CNS inflammation was utilized, and his brain, memory, and level of consciousness directly tampered with, to alter his memories and make him believe something that wasn't true.

A similar thing happened on a massive scale to Miriam, whose story Bedelia has directly appropriated in her own lecture, using Miriam's own words to pass off that experience as her own. I think he's offended by this trivialization of a serious trauma that both he and Miriam experienced, for Bedelia's personal gain, because it's offensive.

I was hoping all this time that Bedelia would turn out to be heroic somehow. But on rewatch of S1, and seeing how Bedelia told Jack that Will needed more friends like Hannibal... that was the detail I couldn't reconcile, even though I hadn't seen anything that contradicted the narrative that Bedelia had publicized about herself and was hoping I wouldn't in the future. That was the piece I just couldn't make fit. Turns out that everyone who suspected Bedelia of being as twisted as Hannibal was right.

And then BF talked about reconstructing that scene like it was "The Burning Bed" which is intentional misdirection to make us think Bedelia was fundamentally an abused woman who defended herself. Well, even if that memory of killing Spocklar was falsified I don't see how it could have turned Bedelia from a decent person into a psychopath because that kind of transformation isn't possible. So - Bryan does misdirect us with what he says offline at times.
posted by tel3path at 9:00 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

I hope that painting was printed on rice paper.

"I can't believe I ate the WHOLE thing"
posted by tel3path at 9:01 AM on August 9, 2015

And taunting him with "I knew him behind the veil, I was more intimate with him than you" and "you're not a killer" that's the first time I've heard anyone use that line so maliciously. Usually, everyone is like ZOMG WILL YOU HAVE BAD THOUGHTS YOU'RE EXACTLY IDENTICAL TO HANNIBAL. HAVING BAD THOUGHTS IS TANTAMOUNT TO BEING A CANNIBALISTIC SERIAL KILLER WHO MAKES HIS FRIENDS BEER IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE. WILL GRAHAM, THOUGHT CRIMINAL.

Instead, she tells Will something he probably longed to hear - if only for a change of pace - "you're not a killer". And wait, no, he is because like he killed someone. He's not Hannibal, but he killed someone, and found the experience ego-syntonic as well as horrifying. So...

Talk about the "alchemy of lies and truth", she's demonstrating it now.

Also, the soft focus filter is back.
posted by tel3path at 9:04 AM on August 9, 2015

This whole thing about psychopathic types appropriating other peoples' experiences, mannerisms and identities - which I freaked out about last season when Hannibal started wearing Will-type sweaters and shirts - Bedelia is demonstrating it here with her word-for-word repetition of Miriam's description of her kidnapping.

I kinda want to shove my own fist quite a long way down Bedelia's throat right now.

Is that a dress she's wearing, or separates? Do we ever see the lower half of that turtleneck-based outfit?
posted by tel3path at 9:12 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also, I don't know how they managed to convey DENISE IS BETTER THAN YOU in the three frames of screentime the character got, but I believe it.
posted by tel3path at 9:14 AM on August 9, 2015

Spockto is choking on his own tongue. He swallows it when he gets upset; it's happened before during a session with Hannibal, and according to Spockto Hannibal just sat by and watched him choke. At first it looks like Bedelia is going to help this wounded bird not choke to death, but actually she 'steps' on him (by shoving her fist all the way down his throat, yuck!).
posted by carsonb at 12:24 PM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]

Right, but last season she explained "it wasn't attached at the time" so I wondered if "swallowed his tongue" was some BS Hannibal had made up and Bedelia used ex post facto.

Guy really did swallow his own tongue, wow.
posted by tel3path at 12:26 PM on August 9, 2015

I've heard of chewing the scenery, but this is ridiculous!

I'd read the book recently, and had no idea that him eating the painting was a thing since I'd only seen Manhunter up to that point. Having Will be there for it was a bit odd.
posted by codacorolla at 12:54 PM on August 9, 2015

Francis was watching himself talk confidently to Hannibal. I wonder if, by switching personae into the Red Dragon, he was able to temporarily shed the speech problems.
posted by tel3path at 1:02 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

“You didn’t lose yourself, Bedelia. You just crawled so far up his ass, you couldn’t be bothered.”

Another one for the "definitely not jealous" file then.

I'm not proud of that one
posted by tel3path at 1:06 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Good question -- anybody know exactly why Will suddenly developed an interest in that particular Blake drawing? I can't reacall anything even in the show that would have sent him there so far.
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:30 PM on August 9, 2015

Hannibal told him.

"The character also appears on a mahjong tile. Marks the Red Dragon."
"'And behold a great red dragon.' Are you familiar with William Blake's The Great Red Dragon and the Woman Clothed in Sun? Blake's Dragon stands over a pleading woman caught in the coil of its tail. Few images in Western art radiate such a unique and nightmarish charge of demonic sexuality."
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:34 PM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]

Of course he told him in a "I am totes really clever and erudite in ways you are not" kind of way, a "you will always need me and my incredible scholarship and erudition" kind of way.

But actually it was a "the guy knowledgeably hard-hacked the phone in my old office and literally rang me up and told me his name was Mr. G. R. Dragon"
posted by tel3path at 2:51 PM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]

And of course, it was really all just an excuse to make intense eye contact with Will and say "demonic sexuality"
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:58 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]

Because Bedelia is making these unfair insinuations that Hannibal wishes would become fair.
posted by tel3path at 2:59 PM on August 9, 2015

Oh and now we know why Bedelia always speaks so deliberately.

Cuz she's a lying liar and can't afford the vocal variation.
posted by tel3path at 3:08 PM on August 9, 2015

And of course, it was really all just an excuse to make intense eye contact with Will and say "demonic sexuality"

after which he like, checks Will's face in the most "eh? eh? am I right?" look and Will literally suppress an eye roll. I swear you can see him start to.
posted by The Whelk at 3:18 PM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]

I know you're into my demonic sexuality, Will. You can deny your true desires all you like, but it's written all over you. Everyone knows it.

No, really. I've taken a vote and 97% of Tattle-Crime readers say you're into me. I don't know why you're lying about it, but I appreciate your discretion. Getting married to broom your tracks behind you shows real commitment to keeping this between ourselves.
posted by tel3path at 3:23 PM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]

"everyone's into my demonic sexuality! That's just how it is! Why fight it?"
posted by The Whelk at 3:26 PM on August 9, 2015

Hannibal is That Guy Who Polled Everyone In The Office And Presented You With Evidence That You Are In Fact Into Him So Why Are You Lying About It? Is It A Control Thing?

dorkier and dweebier with each passing minute.
posted by tel3path at 3:31 PM on August 9, 2015

Ah, I had forgotten Hannibal bringing it up. Damn thunderstorm interruptus. Still, might be a stretch that Will decided even on that basis that he needed to see the physical archived print, huh? I mean there are art books and websites and stuff.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:46 PM on August 9, 2015

Yeah, together they fight crime.

But as usual, Will is JUST too late.
posted by tel3path at 4:01 PM on August 9, 2015

He had to go up to Brooklyn to do it, too. According to the travel rules of this universe, it probably was a half-hour drive from Baltimore to get there.
posted by PussKillian at 7:04 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]

To be fair, Baltimore to Brooklyn is doable in a day by train as oppose d to sudden impromptu trips to Minnesota.
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]

Yeah that's like a 3, 4 hour trip honestly. The timing is a little ultra convenient, but if the museum is only open to researchers on Tuesdays and both of them showed up basically when it opened, I guess it works.

This isn't a huge spoiler- in the book he disguises himself post-museum by quickly shedding the suit and putting on a jaunty tennis outfit complete with racquet. I sincerely doubt we will get that next week but, oh, if only
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:11 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

sporty Francis! He has a Lacoste shirt but the logo is a red dragon
posted by The Whelk at 9:42 PM on August 9, 2015

Yeah, it's not really all that big a deal for Will, but a but more of a haul for Francis in St. Louis. If that's still where he is. But anyway, after the traveling shenanigans this show has pulled the previous two seasons, I don't need to be fair. This universe has some sort of wormhole travel technology and Fuller is just being coy about it.

I'm not even nitpicking the fact that you can't just show up and ask to see something even if you are an important academic (I ask for two weeks notice at my small museum), or that most museums are closed Mondays, not Tuesdays! Of course, after seeing this I'm going to ask for a taser or a savage guard dog for any future appointments.
posted by PussKillian at 10:40 PM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]

The weird thing is the Brooklyn Museum's actual entrance is FULL ON HANNIBAL READY, walls of glass around Victorian infrastructure, plus the bin tactical gardeners are literally next door
posted by The Whelk at 11:03 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Jack almost has to be tapping Hannibal's calls, doesn't he? Why else would he have bothered to hand Freddie info, sic her on Will, and otherwise "chum the waters," if not to induce Francis to contact Will or Hannibal? It would be pointless to do that blindly, and I'm not sure how they could learn about the address issue otherwise. I doubt Will is in on it since Hannibal can read him like a cheap romance novel -- although wouldn't it be great if Will successfully played him this time around?
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:04 AM on August 10, 2015

It would be very highly illegal for anybody to tap client-lawyer communications. They probably verify this by caller ID, thus Francis' little scene with the homemade patch cord in the phone closet.
posted by Bringer Tom at 9:28 AM on August 10, 2015

Jack hasn't shied away from using extra-legal methods in the past.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:51 AM on August 10, 2015

True, but I don't see Alana going along with it and he'd have to use the institute's phone equipment.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:34 AM on August 10, 2015

Saw this comment on the AV Club review:
I never thought of [Bedelia] this way until she gave that lecture this episode. Completely mirrors the Dante one Hannibal gave earlier in the season. Down to the intimidating shoulder touch.

And the raisonne d'etre for the lecture, which was to lay out her bona fides and re-establish herself within the psychiatric community. Lecter's lecture was also to establish himself, in his case as a worthy appointment to the position.

True, but I don't see Alana going along with it and he'd have to use the institute's phone equipment.

Have to wonder if she's "co-authoring" the work that Hannibal is producing while institutionalized. Doesn't she say that he's writing papers? I mean, if he's producing actual academic literature would it be of value to the psychiatric community? How seriously would they take the 'rantings' of an 'insane,' institutionalized cannibal? Why not just sign her name to it, Alana gives it the credibility and Hannibal gets to have his stuff published?

Anyway, to the point, I don't think Jack's listening in on the phone, at least not through Alana. He probably didn't even need her help re-routing Hannibal's mail.
posted by carsonb at 7:00 PM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

And he's much more stilted and less charming about dancing at your wedding than Brian Cox was.

I dunno; I thought his delivery and even more so his poise during that call was very evocative of the Brian Cox performance.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:54 PM on August 10, 2015 [2 favorites]

I wondered if they were going to do the tiger ball-cupping too; but it was very effective that Reba's fingers on the tiger's jaws excited Francis.

That said, I wasn't crazy about the burning-bright color-enhanced tiger; a lot of the time it looked more like she was stroking a synthetic rug.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:11 PM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

There is some chatter online that Bedelia is trying to save Will but Will doesn't see it and I think this has a ring of truth, she really doesn't want anyone else to get trapped in Hannibal's mind pace but she's also not going to endanger herself to do it.

I feel like Bedelia is in the same situation a lot of us get into where you have a friend who is just ...NUTS FOR SOMEONE and can't stop talking about them and breaks up with them but still keeps in touch and goes over every interaction they have with a fine toothed comb and you're sitting there going "WHY ARE YoU DOING THIS THIS IS BAD FOR YOU JUST STOP TALKING TO HIM GOD ITS LIKE YOU WANT TO BE MISERABlE"

Granted, Bedelia was never in love with him , so she's a bit more objective, but she pretty instantly pegs Will for a case of the Got It So Bad Oh Damn.

Just like she pegged Hannibal for the same thing " What makes you think he's your friend."

To Bedelua's POV the whole relationship is one huge slow motion train wreck she saw coming YEARS AGO and no one will even let her have an Told You So.
posted by The Whelk at 11:17 PM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

How seriously would they take the 'rantings' of an 'insane,' institutionalized cannibal?

It all depends what the peer reviewers think of it. Since Hannibal is an MD with a stellar publication record already, and since he isn't actually insane, they'd have to justify not approving his work because of who he is and not because of the merits of that work. To boot, the journal would have to not care about its impact factor.

Alana would be participating in academic fraud if she co-authored or flat-out substituted her name on a paper she didn't write and doesn't want published. Nor, having lied under oath that Hannibal is insane, would she do well to contradict herself by going on to author a paper which rebuts the entire premise that gives her control over him.

And continuing to publish lets Hannibal maintain his dignity. take away the credit for his work and he loses that, along with the basic incentive that anyone has to publish.
posted by tel3path at 12:08 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Just read a review comparing how Francis spends ages voice-coaching himself to make the phone call, but Hannibal doesn't even bother trying to disguise his accent because it's in character for him to half-ass his attempts at deception and enjoy watching people fall for it anyway.
posted by tel3path at 2:39 AM on August 11, 2015

Yeah, when Bedelia talks about crushing a wounded bird, it's the equivalent of someone on the green saying DTMFA. Like it or not, that is not the kind of advice that people just follow.
posted by tel3path at 2:40 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

What The Flick. They don't say it outright but it's clear they quite enjoyed this one. I don't quite get guy-on-the-right's hate for Bedelia, but have a lot of praise for the tiger scene and wonder aloud what having Will actually see Dolarhyde (and presumably a modern security system in the museum also?) mean for catching Dolarhyde since Will's not actually there in the book and conceivably.
posted by sparkletone at 4:04 AM on August 11, 2015

There is some chatter online that Bedelia is trying to save Will but Will doesn't see it and I think this has a ring of truth, she really doesn't want anyone else to get trapped in Hannibal's mind pace but she's also not going to endanger herself to do it.

I'm going to want to watch her whole story chronologically when this is all over, but I kind of suspect she is Hannibaling him in a way - she is poking at him to see what will happen. Only, her method of poking is to just state the truth.

She did this with Hannibal too (not until she ran off with him though - prior to that, she was actually just trying to be his shrink).

Both of them were trying to bury their obsessions and move on, but were doing a pretty bad job of it, and her strategy is to repeatedly point out just how much they are TOTALLY NOT over each other. That's not a way to help someone move on, it's a way to remind them of the thing they haven't moved on from. Like irritating a wound.

Why? It could just be that she, like all of us, is fascinated by their fucked-up dance of a relationship... but also, remember, she spent season 2 not being tracked down by Hannibal because he was too busy being Way Into Will Graham.

Hannibal saw and began to cultivate her murder potential before he even met Will - and Hannibal's pupils tend to wind up super dead. It is good for Bedelia if Hannibal is distracted by someone shinier than her.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:05 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Don Mancini is on this week's Sound On Sight podcast about the show. Haven't listened to it yet, but I'm secretly hoping they confirm my theory that he's the one who thought up putting Hannibal at Chuckie height by having him hide under the table back in Florence.
posted by sparkletone at 8:02 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't really listed to Sound on Sight but I have seen the following quote from that interview floating around Tumblr:

“It really starts to percolate in the episode that was on last night (3.10), and continues honestly, with more and more overt references to the idea that the connection between these two guys is… kind of hot."


"If I were left to my own devices I would definitely have those two characters kiss.”

posted by showbiz_liz at 8:08 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Now that we have all this flashback information about Neil, it's interesting to think about what Bedelia knew and when exactly she knew it.

I think that right up until Will was imprisoned, she genuinely thought that Neil was actually mentally ill. It was only when Will started accusing Hannibal of exactly the same things Neil had accused him of that she realized Neil was probably completely sane the entire time, and that therefore Hannibal was a much more skillful manipulator than she had ever dreamed.

But when did she realize that Hannibal had also manipulated her into killing Neil? From s2e12:

WILL: You were Dr. Lecter's psychiatrist, he wasn't yours.
BEDELIA: I told myself that, but I was under Hannibal's influence. What he did to you made that abundantly clear.

That would seem to imply that until Will was arrested, she didn't think Hannibal had anything to do with her murdering Neil.

In this exchange:

BEDELIA: You develop relationships with patients who are prone to violence. That pattern. Under scrutiny, Jack Crawford’s beliefs about you might start to unravel.
HANNIBAL: Tell me, Dr. Du Maurier, have your beliefs about me begun to unravel?

I think this may actually be the first time she herself put that pattern together.

Another thing - throughout season 1, she was actually lying, not just to Jack, but to Hannibal about what happened with the patient. She repeatedly says, in private conversations with Hannibal, that the patient attacked her. I know that this COULD all be a total retcon, but it works: Hannibal found her in a compromising position with a dead patient, and she lied to him, saying "he attacked me" when really, that's not even close to what happened. So all those therapy conversations in season 1 have this added context: Bedelia thinks she snapped and murdered an innocent man, and she thinks that Hannibal thinks she was defending herself and lost control.

When they have this exchange:

BEDELIA: I don’t take responsibility for his death.
HANNIBAL: Nor should you.

This could be read as the beginning of Bedelia suspecting that she was manipulated into killing Neil by Hannibal - but it could also be her continuing her lie and saying "I don't take responsibility because it was totally self-defense."

This is supported by the following, from early season 2. Now that we know exactly what happened to Neil and how Hannibal was involved, it reads very differently than it did back when we thought Hannibal was directly responsible:

BEDELIA: I'm grateful for your persistence in engaging me after my attack. However, in light of everything that has happened with Will Graham, I have begun to question your actions. Particularly, your past actions with regards to me and my attack.
HANNIBAL: Did you share these questions with Jack Crawford?
BEDELIA: No. Nor will I. I would look just as guilty as you. And perhaps that's what you intended.
HANNIBAL: What exactly am I guilty of?
BEDELIA: Exactly, I cannot say. I had to draw a conclusion from what I glimpse through the stitching of the person suit you wear. And the conclusion I've drawn is that you are dangerous.

In other words - I have begun to question not only why you helped me hide what I did, but whether you were responsible for my doing it in the first place.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:14 AM on August 11, 2015 [8 favorites]

There's only one thing I found that really undermines this theory, but I'm willing to write it off as referring to Hannibal helping her conceal the murder, and chalk it up to the writers not totally solidifying the story yet:

BEDELIA: [I told Crawford] a violent patient swallowed his tongue while attacking me. I didn't tell him how or why or who was responsible.
HANNIBAL: You protect your patient from Jack Crawford, but I can't protect mine?

posted by showbiz_liz at 10:14 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yeah, showbiz_liz, I agree with you.

Taking it further about what that actually implies: Bedelia thought Neil was actually mentally ill. By extension, she thought that the records Hannibal transferred to her were true. And therefore she thought Neil had a history of being violent, and therefore that Hannibal would believe her when she said Neil attacked her.

Of course, she wasn't thinking straight in the moment. When she realized Neil wasn't mentally ill, it should have followed that he may not have been violent either, and that by using that story, Hannibal would have known she was lying about acting in self-defense.

Note, however, that Bedelia's memories have changed from the way they were represented at the beginning of the series. Then, we saw her passing out first, and only after that did we see the "crime reconstruction" of her extracting her arm from his throat. In other words, pulling out her arm was something she remembered after regaining consciousness.

This time around, we see Bedelia swooning in ecstasy, but not actually losing consciousness. She's looking back on it as an ecstatic experience, but her earlier memories of the event showed her fainting in fright.

So I thought then, and I think now, that Hannibal could have falsified her memory of events, not least because it is physically impossible to stick your entire arm down someone's throat without surgically dislocating their jaw, Glasgow smile-style. To falsify her memories I think she would have to have been unconscious and the earlier rendition of events the truer one, but there's no way to really know, which is the point.

And what is even more to the point is that it doesn't matter. Bedelia's view of herself is now of someone who killed recreationally in the past, and was an accessory to Hannibal's recreational killing in Europe. Basically, she thinks of herself as a stone killer and happy about it, and this has probably been true all along.

Why would Hannibal regard this as a triumph? If he thought she wasn't a stone killer before and he had converted her. But this kind of conversion isn't possible, even if Hannibal did falsify her memory of killing Neil. Bedelia survived Hannibal in part because she allowed him to think she was a success story, and that he could go on to perfect his art in Will Graham.

Unlike Abigail, we've never seen Bedelia when she was unobserved. We know Abigail's horror was real because she expressed it on more than one occasion when there was no-one to see her. Bedelia has been performing for an audience in every scene.

Bedelia is Alana's photograph negative. Bedelia knew in a not-knowing sort of way. Alana didn't know in a 'la la la I'm not listening' sort of way. I actually went through Alana's dialogue and actions scene by scene and tested them to figure out whether it was possible Alana consciously knew, and was consciously covering up for Hannibal. And the only events that contradicted that idea were the two times he rendered her unconscious so she wouldn't see what he was doing. Therefore, the only way Alana could have been consciously covering for Hannibal was if she was such a good dissembler that Hannibal didn't know she knew, and I struck that idea off my list as too far-fetched. But there was a dissembler of that type in the group - it was Bedelia.

Bedelia has ruled out the idea that Hannibal is a psychopath because she is a psychopath and she knows how to use his emotions against him while remaining detached herself - which psychopaths tend to pride themselves on. Bedelia is the one who appropriates others' experiences and mannerisms (not that I don't think Hannibal was imitating Bedelia during his Baltimore phase, but she probably got her persona from someone(s) else(s)). She went undetected because she was good at conforming to externally imposed behavioural standards, such as professional ethics - not because she believed in them, but because she was going along to get along. Hannibal was the one who saw through her, and thought he could play her. He would up getting played because...

[drum roll] "Passion. And you're insane."

As for me, I was really really hoping Bedelia would turn out to be virtuous. But I couldn't think of any other explanation for her telling Jack and Alana that Hannibal was a good friend to Will back in S1. Nor of her implying to Jack that Will was a narcissist posing as a sensitive introvert (which was her equivalent of a cannibal pun). And as the European Vacation progressed the excuses just kind of petered out from my point of view. I mean... there's no denying not just that she watched Hannibal kill people, but that she knew he was killing Lydia Fell in order to provide her with an identity. I could understand that the best way of dealing with the threat of Hannibal was to run towards him, and that everything she did was driven by pragmatism - even her complicity against Lydia Fell - but after this episode, oh well.
posted by tel3path at 11:30 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

And... Bedelia probably thought that Will had recreationally murdered an innocent, just as she had.

Which is where the "maybe you deserve each other" line came from, as she was giving Hannibal the boot back in S2.

She may still think that, actually, and been saying the line "you're not a killer" for manipulative purposes. I mean we don't often get people voicing the opinion that Will's not a killer. Nor is it true, because he's killed people. (Alana is a killer, also.) But in a universe where everyone constantly harps on about what a killer Will is, it's positively startling to hear someone state the opposite, especially when they know it's factually untrue.
posted by tel3path at 11:46 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh, I do think she was always acting pragmatically. I think she even sees her own capacity for murder in a pragmatic way. Once she killed Neil, she decided it was too dangerous for her to keep seeing clients at all - very pragmatic. She's not like Hannibal, she doesn't get off on the murder. She's just interested in it.

I think she may be a sociopath, but a functional one - a person who, without having met Hannibal, would never have killed anybody at all. Like James Fallon.

I also think that in the "observation or participation" conversation, she was genuinely shocked by the violence and upset with herself for her complicity. The previous thing with Neil was in the heat of the moment; this was colder, and she wasn't being honest with herself about the fact that her actions were contributing to another death.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:54 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh, and regarding the idea she expressed in that season 1 episode that Will could use more friends like Hannibal:

If Bedelia, at that point in time, still hadn't quite put all the pieces together, she might have been thinking of Will as similar to herself - a killer who Hannibal was crossing professional boundaries to protect.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:56 AM on August 11, 2015

Well yeah that's what I thought it meant too!
posted by tel3path at 1:43 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

On reflection I liked Neil Frank best. The meaning of his name isn't exactly forbidden.

Saying "I went in mildly depressed and hilarity ensued" and "he used some kind of light therapy and I woke up somewhere else" oh, man.

Just contrast that with Will going in to see Hannibal with signs of PTSD and social anxiety, and coming out with an ear in his sink, and everyone going "ew I told you he was creepy".

Heck, Neil Frank's friends probably thought he really was paranoid, cuz look at him making accusations to people's faces when it would be safer to keep his mouth shut.

And saying "this is weird and culty!" versus "oh Will it's easier for you to believe that Hannibal did this than that you did"

"Well yeah because I'm a profiler with a 100% clearance rate and have you ever looked at the Ripper's profile and Hannibal's dating profile side by side?"

"oh goodness me you really have got it bad for him, obviously we must shadow you every step of the way and be characteristically helpful as ever"
posted by tel3path at 2:04 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

tl;dr after seeing what happened to Neil Frank we know why Everyone in Baltimore is so credulous it's because Hannibal literally ate all the others
posted by tel3path at 2:12 PM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Most of all I love how Spock's reasoning is so perfectly...

I'm visualizing Greg Nog's Ravenstag explaining how they all operate on dream logic here and Spock protesting "that's culty and weird"
posted by tel3path at 3:27 PM on August 11, 2015

"If I were left to my own devices I would definitely have those two characters kiss.”

Got to the podcast this evening. It's worth a listen, I think, even if you don't regularly listen to this particular podcast. There's a number of good bits from Mancini. He gives more detail regarding the censor note Bryan tweeted about with the timing of Dolarhyde's orgasm. He also lays out how the writers see Bedelia in this episode, confirming quite a bit of what our general read on things was. Also, the origin of the "killing the bird" analogy she makes is... quite interesting.

And, yeah. The bit you quote is in there. Boo hoo the people we were discussing early on in the thread who hate Hannigram subtext being exploded. He does say that the ~smooching~ would be if he was left to his druthers, where Bryan is much happier with it left unresolved (if blatant as all heck).

And if you're worried about the time investment, the portion with Don ends around the 1 hour mark.
posted by sparkletone at 12:16 AM on August 12, 2015 [3 favorites]

There's a huge division between different online commenty places over whether the whole Explicit Hannigram Thing is good or bad. This morning I was looking around and saw a bunch of people decrying the current season as 'fanfiction,' not the first time I've seen that sentiment expressed, and it got me thinking.

TV is so incredibly straight that the barest hint of gayness in a not-explicitly-gay show is enough to make people declare that the show, despite having been written and produced by the same people the entire time, has ceased to exist as itself. Oh, if you start a show out with a Gay Premise (Modern Family, etc) then it's fine, but if you take a "regular" show that people enjoy on its own merits and then gay it up, that delegitimizes it completely.

It was a ~TV show~ when it was straight. Now that it’s kinda gay, it’s fanfic.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:12 AM on August 12, 2015 [4 favorites]

Oh, if you start a show out with a Gay Premise (Modern Family, etc) then it's fine, but if you take a "regular" show that people enjoy on its own merits and then gay it up, that delegitimizes it completely.

Exactly, because we know everything we ever need to know about characters and their relationships in Season 1, Episode 1. After all, that's how real life works: we never learn anything new about ourselves over the years, and our own identities never develop or anything. Oh, and it's not like there are (often unstated, often unexplored) blatant homoerotic dimensions in many same-sex friendships between ostensibly straight people. Gosh, this show almost suggests that friendship, romance, sexual attraction, and sexuality are actually complicated. Unacceptable!

Mancini was really cool on that podcast . One of the other interesting points that came up (from the hosts) is that in the Reba-Francis relationship, Reba is portrayed in some ways as the (positive, healthy, non-murderous) "Hannibal" to Francis's "Will." She takes the lead, serves the food and drinks, shows Francis the potential of having a different kind of life and relationship.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:56 AM on August 12, 2015 [2 favorites]

The weird thing is , the show IS fan fiction, it takes a few dropped plots from the source material and builds an entire alternate canon around it, filling in details, explaining contradictions, fixing plot holes, queering characters, etc. it's the greatest fanwork ever made but it still has all the qualities of a fanwork (the fact that they invented new plot devices that feel like they could be in Harris books is the best thing, so very understanding of the feel and textures the source material if not the letter)

I mean I think the fact that Will and Hannibal are in some doomed para-romantic mutal obsession has been obvious ever since "I don't find you that interesting" "you will" but I know other people need some time to catch up.
posted by The Whelk at 6:59 AM on August 12, 2015 [2 favorites]

I watch with a couple of (straight) guys who took a while to pick up on it, like in episode 4 of this season I said "wow they've gotten pretty explicit with the gay stuff" and they were like "huh I guess in a certain light I can see how you could get that out of it"

(Now, of course, it's gotten textual enough that they are pointing out the gay stuff right along with me)
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:09 AM on August 12, 2015

I mean, all it took for me was that in season one, episode one, Hannibal looks at Will likes he's the most tasty petite four on the plate but again, I assume OMG epitope need to catch up.
posted by The Whelk at 7:16 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]

posted by showbiz_liz at 7:21 AM on August 12, 2015

Look my autocorrect does weird things, I meant to say other people but who can say in our go go modern world
posted by The Whelk at 7:26 AM on August 12, 2015 [2 favorites]

You know, I'm pretty slow at this stuff - but then I watched S1 in a binge, while asleep and also while writing a paper. So I wasn't fully paying attention the first time around. By the S2 premiere I was pretty thoroughly indoctrinated by fanon. So I can't say whether I would have picked this up from what I saw on screen.

But by S2E3, when Hannibal was going "are you going to let his love go to waste?" well that clinched it for me. I mean he came as close to saying "I love you" as makes no odds, and the only reason he didn't say it outright is because he didn't want to confess to murder within earshot of a zillion LEOs.

Later in the series, when Hannibal was drawing smutty fanart of him and Will, that dispelled any questions I had about whether Hannigram was sexual or not. Clearly it is for one of them. I also believe what they say about Will being straight, because I think if both of them were that way inclined they'd have hit the sack long ago. And in an alternate universe, where either Hannibal *wasn't* a murderer or Will *was*, I could see Will thinking it over and deciding to give it a try. A chap like Hannibal can turn a fellow's head.

I'm kind of slow to perceive shipping in canon generally; "a man and a woman meet each other in this episode, obviously the ship is canon" doesn't cut it for me. I won't believe it until I get clear confirmation that a ship is canon. This is because people do the same thing in real life and it bugs me because of the pressure it puts me under; ask a guy to pass the salt and he assumes you're into him. I WOULD JUST LIKE SOME SALT okay please.
posted by tel3path at 8:18 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure when I picked up on it since I can be dense about interpersonal nuance, but it was clear pretty early that Hannibal was into Will, for various values of "into." There was way more touching, for instance, than in most US straight-guy platonic friendships or mentorships that don't involve sports, although you could explain that away via Hannibal/Mikkelsen being European, I suppose. He related to Will with different body language than he did Abigail even though he was also grooming/mentoring her. It struck me as one-sided until . . . maybe starting with the swimming pool murder attempt? -- even as a "goddamn you for framing me and murdering my friend" gesture, that seemed a little, I dunno, over the top in a way that suggested someone reacting to difficult or uncomfortable emotions, like a person who previously felt basically sure of their orientation experiencing a differently-oriented attraction. That can be pretty upsetting -- just as I think it knocked Hannibal for a loop when he realized he saw Will as a companion and almost-peer rather than another toy or project.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:42 AM on August 12, 2015

Oh, another item from the Making Francis Sympathetic file: they really decreased the creepiness quotient in this episode (and also made Reba seem less victim-y) by leaving out the book detail of Francis watching the Sherman movie during the couch scene. I thought about that after hearing Mancini's "if only he had met Reba a few years earlier" comment on the podcast because of course, in BookUniverse, Francis has been increasingly expressing Love via violence since he was like 8 years old, so it's absurd to think BookFrancis could have been turned around significantly by experiencing kindness and acceptance at age 35 or whenever.

It'll be interesting to see where the show decides to go with that. I mean, we know Will envisions Francis as someone who can -- or could recently -- potentially be saved/stopped rather than a doomed-for-decades broken creature who needs to be mercifully crushed, but I'm curious about whether the authorial voice will share that view or ultimately show that to be magical thinking.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:16 AM on August 12, 2015 [2 favorites]

I don't think the pool thing was over the top at all - I think it was proportionate. There is a defense of justifiable homicide, if you're killing someone to prevent them harming someone else.

Will only went there because he saw how everyone else was *under*reacting.
posted by tel3path at 10:24 AM on August 12, 2015

I only started thinking "woah are they actually going there" when this happened, which in the bell curve of "when viewers first thought 'woah are they actually going there'" would probably be the peak
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:29 AM on August 12, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yeah, but in the book, Francis was the recipient of kindness from a member of staff at his Grandmother's home. I think her name was Queen Mother. That was what sowed the seeds of goodness in him, and they came to fruition when Reba appeared. I think the book made it sound plausible, which isn't easy.
posted by tel3path at 10:32 AM on August 12, 2015

And actually, Francis *wasn't* turned around - not for lack of wanting to be, alas.
posted by tel3path at 10:34 AM on August 12, 2015

There's a huge division between different online commenty places over whether the whole Explicit Hannigram Thing is good or bad.

Some people just enjoy a good finger-wagging.
posted by carsonb at 10:43 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]

And actually, Francis *wasn't* turned around - not for lack of wanting to be, alas.

Right, that's what I was saying. BookFrancis is not someone who could have been magically "saved by the love of a good woman" shortly before the dragon appeared (age 40? 35?) because he has been extremely messed-up and violent since late childhood. If Reba had met BookFrancis 5 years sooner, she might have gotten the wonderful honor of being his first murder victim instead of the family in 1x1, but really, the only things that could improve his longterm quality of life in middle age are being caught, confined, and given therapy and handfuls of anti-psychotic meds forever. That would probably help manage the command hallucinations and build self-esteem, but it wouldn't undo 30+ years' worth of rape-murder fantasies and precursor crimes.

I would say Queen Mother just watered seeds that were already there -- like any kid, BookFrancis had plenty of goodness and sweetness in him. His institutional early years followed by his grandmother's regime of crazy cruelty fucked up his fragile psyche royally, and QM's kindness was surely a much-needed antidote to that, just too little too late. And of course, her perceived "betrayal" was part of what triggered his initial violent behavior. But sure, if Francis had had regular access to normal human relationships and psychiatric treatment starting in his teens or even young adulthood, that could have mitigated a lot of damage to him and others.

Because the show isn't (thus far) providing that backstory or details of his horrific thought patterns, I wonder if, for non-book-readers, he's coming across more as "super-insecure introvert goes homicidally bonkers from loneliness at age 40" rather than "guy with long history of antisocial violent pathology finally graduates to family murders after grandiose delusions embolden him."
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:43 PM on August 12, 2015 [3 favorites]

I only started thinking "woah are they actually going there" when this happened

I am right there with you in having seen the various more subtle flirtations with that part of the show's subtext. That shot is less a flirtation and more a "first kiss that sure as heck ain't a peck on the lips" in terms of bringing that part of the show forward more explicitly.

I am definitely with Bryan in that I'm happier with it left unresolved, but I don't understand the complaints about bringing this side of the show forward at all really as I've said before. Hannibal's been sniffing around Will (literally) since S1.
posted by sparkletone at 3:06 PM on August 12, 2015 [2 favorites]

So the reason why they have to keep him locked up, and lie that he's insane, but can't kill him, is because Hannibal is their locked-up dark side, just as Will was their locked-up truth-teller that they just couldn't help but keep going back to last season.

Alana literally struck a bargain with her dark side to enact the revolution at Muskrat Farm. And it required doing things Alana couldn't do herself. Not that she couldn't have picked up a gun and shot both Cordell and Mason, but she had to outsource that to her dark side and let it run free. Now, holding Mason underwater after he shot at them both? That slides along the spectrum from self defense to murder, and that was something Alana could do herself.

Now she has Hannibal under lock and five keys and she has to guard him personally herself. She threatens him with removal of luxuries, but the endpoint of these threats is loss of dignity, which Alana believes is what Hannibal fears the most.

Thing is, even when she was oozing caring and sympathy in S1, she really didn't know how to care for Abigail except by locking her up. And Abigail escaped, of course, and Hannibal is a tricky feller so she has to be extra vigilant with him.

Ostensibly, the dark side Alana has locked up is the side of her that loves luxury, but it was notable that she didn't really seem to get much reward out of indulging her appetites in S2. She seemed like someone who, in ladylike fashion, had *tastes* but nothing so debasing as *appetites*. And she just told us that what's really behind it is fear of the loss of dignity. Because she doesn't understand him, and she still identifies him with herself in particular ways - and of course because she has to believe that she has something he values that she can take away from him, otherwise she's containing smoke.

Jack? Looks like his dark side is walking pretty much free these days. he's just been back to see Hannibal for the first time.

Will? All this walking in the light... Well, it was called Wolf Trap for a reason, and the moon is full and he must howl at it (as illustrated by Charles Schulz).

Bedelia? Didn't need to go back to see Hannibal at all, because her dark side is running the show and feels pretty okay about it.

Molly? What dark side? What crazy ex? I'm sure he'll be fine.
posted by tel3path at 3:39 PM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]

My point being of course, that everyone is gay for Hannibal, including Alana.

And Chilton just takes his dark side on a book tour.
posted by tel3path at 4:41 PM on August 12, 2015

Or rather he doesn't have,a dark side, his moral character is so flimsy and transparent that he's no-sided
posted by tel3path at 4:42 PM on August 12, 2015

Chilton's dark side would be hilariously petty and inept anyway
posted by The Whelk at 6:22 PM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]

So, I do want to hear some input on this episode from people who don't know the book/movies. I'm curious how the various book scenes felt to them.
I mean, in the space of 40 minutes, we had Dolarhyde:
1. Displaying high-level knowledge of phone hacking
2. Having exclusive zoo access (they did mention the zoo once last ep, but it was presented as just an excuse he was using)
3. Living in a massive well-appointed house, which has not yet been explained
4. Dressing up in a suit in order to go eat a famous painting
Like it's all existing canon but it's a lot

I wasn't too bothered? I guess I figured the house suggests he's well off (which probably connects with the brief image of the dinner with all the old people last week?), and a combination of wealth (which could explain zoo access, suit, and house), isolation plus obsessive focus (which he's definitely exhibited from the very first frames we've seen of him, and could explain the hacking bit), and a bit of Art Murder Magic can more or less account for anything. It doesn't seem that much larger than some of the other leaps of faith we've taken. It did make me wonder if the job was a means for something other than making money (perhaps it started as an attempt to connect with people and that soured as his obsessions grew?)

Along those lines, I was also interested in his ability to (with practice and effort!) completely change his speech when pretending to be Hannibal's lawyer; it did seem to suggest that his sense of disability and isolation is even more self-imposed than Reba's comments suggested, and that he could, in fact, overcome whatever minor speech issues remained (and if he is indeed wealthy, get cosmetic surgery) but that he's (to some extent voluntarily?) let his neuroses about these minor deficiencies consume him, or perhaps even fostered them as a cover for/excuse for his other issues? Which is an interesting counterpoint to both the scenes that paint him very sympathetically (interacting with Reba) and the Great Red Dragon scenes which are of course not quite as sympathetic. I'll be curious to see how much of this turns out to be totally off base...

Unrelated to Dolarhyde, in some review or other I ran into the following comment: The most telling line this week was Bedelia's "I was with Hannibal behind the veil – you were always on the other side." No matter how clearly Will thinks he saw Hannibal, there was always some subterfuge going on, with Hannibal keeping his true, worst self hidden from Will. After three years, he might be ready to cast off the veil. Which can of course be tied directly back to Will's comment describing his and Hannibal's love as a mutual and unspoken pact to ignore the worst and enjoy the best in one another. Bedelia wasn't looking for the best in Hannibal (and if anything is more interested in observing the worst); Will did want to see the best/struggled with the worst, and if Hannibal's jilted ex thing continues (as his gambit re: Will's address would suggest), it's going to be hard to ignore Hannibal's worst self.
posted by ubersturm at 12:03 AM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]

Will's comment describing his and Hannibal's love as a mutual and unspoken pact to ignore the worst and enjoy the best in one another

That was a retort to Alana. I think first and foremost he was throwing Alana's relationship with Hannibal in her face, in response to her description "blackmail elevated to the level of love" which better described Will's relationship with Hannibal than hers. Not that all the descriptions didn't fit, just some were a better fit than others.
posted by tel3path at 12:27 AM on August 13, 2015

I'm just having trouble with the idea that Hannibal's worst self was ever hidden from or ignored by Will, post-ear (anyway it's been all revealed since). I don't think Bedelia did see a worse side of Hannibal than Will did. Jist maybe a less cool side with worse taste in suits.

I think what she meant was she was on the murdering side - she had that intimacy with him and he didn't. tje veil is a bridal veil and Will is like the girl who will do everything but *that* because she wants to be a virgin on her wedding night. and Bedelia is like actually, the problem is you're a lesbian and he's not. Ooh, home truths.
posted by tel3path at 1:10 AM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]

And here we are at the most restless time of the week, the time when I roam the Internet, howl at the moon, and poke my contacts with obsessive random blurtings.

What the fuck even was it with the sky raining teeth. Guillermo Navarro, wat.
posted by tel3path at 9:37 AM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]

Apparently it was a reference to a book line about pearls turning into teeth? I thought it was notable that when the museum lady turns up she's wearing BIG OBVIOUS PEARL NECKLACE right before a scene full of teeth
posted by The Whelk at 9:42 AM on August 13, 2015

Ah right.

It sure didn't work for me, but.
posted by tel3path at 9:52 AM on August 13, 2015

Just did a quick scan through the Book of Revelation because why the hell not. Given the episode titles I was wondering if there'd be anything noteworthy that they cribbed for the show.

This did jump out at me:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood.

And this part made me wonder if Thomas Harris was intentionally referencing it with the eating of the painting:

Rev 10:9-10 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

I enjoy pretending that Chilton is currently embodying this bit, though it doesn't really make sense:

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Rev 13:5-6 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


20:1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The final episode's title definitely references Rev 6:15-17, but I'm not sure if the title is a spoiler.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:10 AM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, we know Dolarhyde thinks this is Reba:

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

However, I got the feeling Margot's gold shirt in Digestivo could be significant, and that the great red dragon in that episode could be Mason:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

I thought these verses could refer to Alana:

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Note that it's been three years and change since the first half of the season.

These mappings don't exactly make sense except in isolation - the overall pattern doesn't fit any storyline that I can see here.

I feel like "the wrath of the lamb" could simply be Will going apeshit with his own reckoning, but I can't tell.
posted by tel3path at 10:26 AM on August 13, 2015

Not to mention that Apocalypse means Revelation and includes a day of Reckoning.
posted by tel3path at 10:27 AM on August 13, 2015

And that, in the same family of crimes as negligence is "recklessness" which literally means a lack of "reck", the opposite of "reckoning".
posted by tel3path at 10:28 AM on August 13, 2015

Goddammit, Aaron.
posted by sparkletone at 11:26 AM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]

And speaking of Margot, I was just reading (from the point of view of last season) about how horribly problematic her character was last season.

But now that she's murdered her brother by holding him underwater with an eel after sticking an electric cattle prod up his butt and recruited her new girlfriend to secure her inheritance by carrying and giving birth to a male Verger baby, and then disappearing from the story [1] - all that horrid problematicness from last season can be forgotten.

Man, viewer priorities are weird sometimes.

[1] I am completely happy with this development, in case that wasn't clear.
posted by tel3path at 11:46 AM on August 13, 2015

Goddammit, Aaron.

I want him to get a bigger role in something after this, he's consistently hilarious on Twitter.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:56 AM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]

And I guess... One thing that's great about Reba's characterization is that her storyline isn't about being blind. I mean she *is* blind, and it's essential to her character, and it's pretty darned important to Dolarhyde, but her character isn't reducible to blindness. I mean, even to Dolarhyde it's not about Reba being blind, it's just that her blindness removes an obstacle to intimacy for him but it's not sufficient, she distinctly connected with him as a person.

That's pretty unusual since most TV characters who are disabled aren't regular characters and their characterization and plotting is 100% about their disability. Well, there have been some pretty well-rounded ASD characters on TV in recent years - Bob from Re:Genesis was rather cartoonish in some ways but well realized in others; Grissom from CSI was never called out as having ASD but he clearly was.
posted by tel3path at 1:34 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]

Another thing about Reba is the way she styles her stand -- "sympathy feel s like spit on my cheek and I don't do self-pity." This has to resonate with Dolarhyde's Dragon, which doesn't want sympathy either. I really like the moment of realization when he understands that she is coming on to him and there is no sympathy, because Reba doesn't do sympathy, she is a proud and independent and fierce creature like himself and she has made her desire crystal clear without shame and she is completely worthy and so he literally sweeps her off her feet to carry her to the bedroom in what will turn out to be the single most wonderful moment of his entire sorry life. Hell, it would probably be one of the more wonderful moments of Reba's life except for that whole tooth fairy thing she doesn't know about yet.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:24 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]

So, one of the things I noticed about Bedelia's affect when she was lecturing was how much she *moved*. Little motions, just normal sort of stuff. Her head moved a bit like brownian motion - we all do it (mostly) at times.

Except, she doesn't. She's always got that porcelain doll perfect stillness going on, with very deliberate and smooth motions. Giving that lecture was her putting on *her* 'person-suit' for people. Once she's back with Will in private, well, she can drop that facade.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:38 PM on August 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

posted by tel3path at 5:12 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

...seven guards and seven gates... Pinging showbiz_liz, I do believe you were right about the five doors in the TV series being because the first two of seven seals had already been opened.
posted by tel3path at 12:54 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

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