Hannibal: ...And the Beast from the Sea
August 13, 2015 9:17 PM - Season 3, Episode 11 - Subscribe

Francis and Reba have movie night; the Grahams host a slumber party.

OHMYGOD the couchfilm OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD everything else. Buckle up kids, it's gonna be a bumpy thread.
posted by FelliniBlank (148 comments total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
 
Francis, YOU BASTARD, not the puppies! Don’t you hurt the puppydoggies!

Molly and Will, both lying their asses off to each other, super. Hey, let’s try some honesty in relationships for a change and see if that helps us NOT GET KILLED, OK? Jesus Horatio Christ.

I’m like 20 minutes in, and I’m pretty sure I’m having a myocardial infarction . . . in my whole body! WTF, BRYAN?

I usually don’t care about awards bullshit, but I swear to god, if Armitage doesn’t get a fucking emmy nomination next year based solely on his first scene with Hannibal in this ep, it’ll be a crime against nature. Much as I love Lee Pace’s work, I’m so happy he was too busy to take this role because it would have been incorrect. On the other hand, he’d be a FANTASTIC Jame Gumb if we ever get one.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:19 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Before dumping notes: WELL THAT WAS CERTAINLY AN ESCALATION. On many, many, many levels and ominous as fuck. Bumpy indeed. I had about two or three distinct bouts of flailing in my seat (but no yelling this time)... And so much of it was so heart-breaking. I feel like this episode is Will (and us) entering freefall and it's going to be a messy splat when we hit the ground.

Notes:

- "He ate a painting. ... He ate it up!" LOLOLOLOL. Would've LOVED to see a shot of Kade Prunell watching the news or getting an email about this one…

- Alana with the cool insights about Dolarhyde! :D

- “Push him to self destruction” JESUS FUCKING CHRIST JACK. IS DOING THAT TO WILL NOT ENOUGH?

- Bitchy Will is back again this week! “He knows.” Dancy's face as he's talking to Jack here is utterly chilling.

- MORE THERAPY WITH FRANCIS FUCK YES. The phone equipment prominently on the desk to remind us of what’s really happening here.

- … Francis, buddy, you did way more than put your hand on her heart… you did the sex

- Another chilling yet heartbreaking scene with Armitage, and HOLY SHIT LUCIFER’S WHISPERING IN HIS EAR WITHOUT MOVING HIS LIPS.

- “Toss the dragon to someone else,” WELL THAT SOUNDS SWELL. D:

- Oh my fucking god. DOLARHYDE HAS NO ANGELS ON HIS SHOULDERS, ONLY HANNIBAL PERCHED ON EACH. Also, HOW THE HELL IS THIS HAPPENING IN EPISODE 11? The attack on Will's home is the climax of the novel. Shifting it forward like this is a crazy interesting choice even if they don't do it till next episode. Also did I hear an allusion to Goldberg Variations at the mention of Will? It was just, like, two notes on a piano kinda buried in the score…

- More kaleidoscope imagery that the season’s been so wild about. That moon rotating was creepy.

- Good job blacking out the Dolarhyde booty, colorists!

- Aww, more pretty piano stuff and drinks with Reba. But… Wait. Wait. Are they … They can’t ACTUALLY do this on the show right? This is from the book but oh god oh god oh god no. :(

- SHIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT. THE COUCH SCENE. (Cleolinda and many others are going to fucking LOSE IT here… I am fucking losing it here.)

- In the book I’m pretty sure it’s movies of families he’s already killed. Making it Molly and Walter amps things way up. WHY IS SHE NOT IN PROTECTIVE CUSTODY. THEY DID THAT IMMEDIATELY IN THE BOOK. Dolarhyde's attack in the book only gets pulled off because he fakes death in what seems like the climax before the horror-standard "wait no we're not done yet" (and that's not a criticism, it's one of my favorite instances of that trope). I take this as further evidence of Jack’s practically criminal negligence. “Hannibal has been in contact with the killer. Hannibal is obsessed with and has been talking to Will.” NO REASON TO ACT ON THAT INFO, JACK, AMIRITE.

- Seriously, fuck you, Jack.

- … Bryan. Bryan what are you doing. Okay. Phew. BUT GODDAMMIT, BRYAN. Bye, dogs, you can’t help now. Oh god. Guess we're not waiting on the attack at all then. :(

- Hannibal is posing for a slam dunk. NBA JAM IS HIS MIND PALACE. (Actually that shot of whatever ceiling that was was really cool. I hope they say what it is during livetwet).

- Haha. The toilet paper writing reference was delightful.

- HANNBIAL YOU TRASH MONSTER. Will’s face needs to be given the Arrested Development, “I’ve made a huge mistake” caption at the end of this scene.

- So in the book Molly is the one that shoots Dolarhyde in the end after he’s maimed Will. So she’s just going to plug him with a shotgun here and that’s it right? RIGHT? D:

- Dolarhyde’s outfit is so INCREDIBLY The Dare Devil.

- I spent the last several minutes in a state of extreme clench when not waving my arms around like an idiot and gawping at the screen. But also: Oh thank god.

- Will is going to be fucking pissed. So. Fucking. Pissed. Sooo beyond pissed. Like we have never, ever, ever seen or imagined him pissed.

- Oh, Will’s heartbreak at finding out Walter knows about his past. :(

- Okay, Will. BEDELIA TOLD YOU. WALTER TOLD YOU. COME ON NOW.

- Hahahahaha. GET HIM ALANA. “In my own way I always have.” … We’ve hashed that out repeatedly in threads (and Mads has said that's how he sees Hannibal in interviews) but GODDAMMIT. Take his toilet away, Alana! O hai Jack.

- Mads’ face in that whole conversation once Jack enters the room is priceless. Hannibal so clearly sees this business with the wire tap as a fun new game to entertain himself with!

- Francis is doing upside down ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The dragon tripping him but always being not quite there as he throws himself around is such a great visualization of his madness (not that it hasn’t been done in plenty of other things from Fight Club on back). But jesus fuck, poor Francis. That was brutal. :( :( :(

- Muh heart. Poor Reba. :(

- I want another reaction shot of both Jack and Kade when the phone line turns out to be Hannibal’s old office.

- … Going to Hannibal for relationship advice is a great idea. Really great. This will be fine. Everything’s going to be fine.

- Richard Armitage has been phenomenal since his first episode but HOLY FUCKING SHIT THIS PHONE CALL SCENE. God DAMN.

- TROLLFACE HANNI STRIKES AGAIN

- Well, I got my wish when it came to Jack reacting to the office. He looks like he just ate some rotten meat.

- 3x11: “...And the Beast from the Sea” AKA (almost) EVERYONE IS REALLY PISSED OFF.

- WE GOT TO SEE HANNIBAL IN THE MASK. WE GOT TO SEE HIM IN THE MASK. WE GOT TO SEE HIM IN THE MASK. ALANA TOOK THE TOILET. I AM SO HAPPY briefly (still sad and horrified).

- “You look different” Sure fine. Punch me right in my heart one more time, show. It’s only 11 or 13. It’s not like you could’ve waited.

- Will’s face. I CAN’T DO THIS SHOW. PLEASE.

- Molly is too good for this world. But not too pure. I love her character so much in this version. So so much.

- Fade to prison. UH OH. JESUS FUCK. WILL’S DEATH STARE.

- I think this is the longest conversation these two have had in this arc so far. And like every final scene in an that ends with them talking to date, it is some serious tour de force shit from both of them.

- WELL THAT WAS ALL OMINOUS. I AM SURE THIS WILL ALL END JUST FINE. WILL WILL ACTUALLY MAKE IT TO A BEACH AND HIS DOGS WILL PLAY IN THE SAND AND THE OCEAN.
posted by sparkletone at 9:38 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Will is going to be fucking pissed. So. Fucking. Pissed. Sooo beyond pissed. Like we have never, ever, ever seen or imagined him pissed.

On this note: If the ending they’re going for is WILL THE ACTUAL MONSTER… Well. This was certainly how you start pushing him there. Jesus christ, in that last scene Will was the utterly terrifying one.

Something bad's going to happen to Freddie and I don't think Will at the moment is going to shed a single fucking tear.
posted by sparkletone at 9:39 PM on August 13, 2015


I'm pretty sure I'll stop shaking like a fucking leaf in about 12 or 20 hours.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:43 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hey, remember how in S1 it wasn't until the start of 1x13 that we got real confirmation that nothing was going to be okay at all even a little? Like not that things were trending towards a happy ending, but Will waking up and the ear thing being the real, true sign that NOTHING WILL BE OKAY (even more so than the ominous ending with Abi in the kitchen ending 12).

And then in season 2, it's in 12 when Bedelia tells Jack et al that they're completely hosed that we get some real, true confirmation that things are going to be more terrible than we can imagine even with all we have to go on at that point?

WELL NOW IT'S "only" EPISODE 11 AND WILL IS MAKING CRAZY EYES AT EVERYONE AND OH GOD. D:
posted by sparkletone at 9:49 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


In the book I’m pretty sure it’s movies of families he’s already killed.

It's actually his upcoming family, the Shermans. Speaking of families, I think Will can just say "So long, Molly" [wave] now.

Man oh man, just when Bryan had about convinced me he was going to do a straight-up adaptation. Fuck ME. Seriously, still visibly trembling here.

This is how good Armitage is: even after that TERRIFYING home invasion and the dog poisoning (the ultimate crime if you're me), which was so scary I can't even articulate it, he still broke my goddamn heart into bits during the break-up with Reba and his talk with Hannibal. Everybody on this show is stellar all the time, but this guy? Unreal.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:52 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh god yes, the toilet paper and personal ads joke!
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:53 PM on August 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


I forget if they ever gave an exact count on the number of times he scared the crew or if it was just "on several occasions," but I have to think watching him film his side of that tapped phone call was terrifying.
posted by sparkletone at 9:57 PM on August 13, 2015


The TP joke was like one lovely moment of gentle laughter before Fuller tossed us headlong into the abyss. If I'm very quiet, I think I can detect the sound of the entire Internet screaming like a banshee. The preview blurb said "Alana offers Hannibal a chance at redemption," and I was like, great, I'm sure he'll take it too and become Bob Newhart.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:59 PM on August 13, 2015


I forget if they ever gave an exact count on the number of times he scared the crew or if it was just "on several occasions," but I have to think watching him film his side of that tapped phone call was terrifying.

I can think of two very specific things Francis is probably going to do yet, one next week and one probably the week after, that will make tonight look innocuous. It's the one next week that'll be the worst, I bet.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:02 PM on August 13, 2015


Oh god, "Take your hat and go, Francis." [sob, snuffle] I need many hankies now.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:08 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah. The worst is yet to come and Id have said that even before tonight. I found it interesting but wholly understandable that the one they've confirmed so far is just his first scene where he's moving his hands oddly
posted by sparkletone at 10:08 PM on August 13, 2015


"Do you remember . . . the light? Is it worse to have seen it, and lost it?" I am literally crying into my cornflakes Chex here.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:09 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


THIS SHOW IS TRYING TO KILL ME
posted by The Whelk at 1:55 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]


SO

MANY

THOUGHTS

MY HEART WAS RACING FOR 40 DAMN MINUTES

MOLLY HIDING IN THE LOGS, WHAT ARE LOGS FOR? FUEL FOR A FIRE


AHHHHH

oh god will is going to murder him, will is going to choke the life out of Francis with his bare hands, then maybe kill Jack for all I know, hell Freddie too, it's the wrath of the lamb.

And then Hannibal will know he won (if he escapes the WILL GRAHAM BLOODBATH TOUR)
posted by The Whelk at 2:29 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


MY HEART WAS RACING FOR 40 DAMN MINUTES

Same here, and I had to pace in front of the TV the whole time because every time I sat down something terrible happened!
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:36 PM on August 14, 2015


Sounds like it would be refreshing for someone to just walk up to Hannibal while he's restrained, and shoot him at point blank range before he can even come out with a smartass remark.
posted by tel3path at 2:49 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Will's faaaace, hes not leaving this without murdering someone.
posted by The Whelk at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Post-mortem with Scott Thompson. Guillermo Navarro, Armitage, and Rutina Wesley are there. It's nice but as they've been for most of them, a bit slight.

I'm sure there will be proper post-season interviews, with at least Bryan if no one else, and what not but what I'm kind of jonesing for at the moment is for Bryan to go on Kevin Pollack's show once it's aired and just kind of... lay the whole thing out all in one place again.
posted by sparkletone at 5:21 PM on August 14, 2015


OMFG
The fire of ritious violence burning lines of determined fury into Will's face!

Just can't even guess where its gonna go and who will be dead by the time Will completes his becoming.

Eeeeeee!
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 7:31 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


ok so before reading any of the comments: AUGH
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:13 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


"He ate a painting. ... He ate it up!"

This has to be a There Will Be Blood shoutout.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:24 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


WHY IS SHE NOT IN PROTECTIVE CUSTODY. THEY DID THAT IMMEDIATELY IN THE BOOK.

Not quite - in the book, they only put them into protective custody after they decode the note Hannibal sends to Dolarhyde* saying "kill them all." In this version, they don't find that out before he comes to the house.

*which he sends in a personal ad, after being contacted via a note written on toilet paper, ho ho
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:24 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Even I, certified shipper trash that I have apparently become, was totally like "WILL WHY ARE YOU STILL LISTENING TO THIS GUY YOU FUCKING MORON"
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:26 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also, I know she usually watches it as it airs so I would like to preemptively issue my concern over poffin boffin's reaction to the dog thing
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:26 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Will usually makes the dogs' food from scratch.

WELL OF COURSE HE DOES.

*cue our household making jokes about Will Graham's Old-Timey Artisanal Dog Food brand*
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]


Can someone memail me to confirm or spoiler me if Molly and her son survive the season? I'm aware Bryan Fuller may decide to end the show with Will serving Molly-burger to Hannibal but based on the source material, how much (more) child death can I expect?
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:16 PM on August 14, 2015


Can someone memail me to confirm or spoiler me if Molly and her son survive the season?

Free of foreknowledge beyond book stuff: That they survived this episode says to me they'll live. The attack on them is the catalyst for whatever Murderous Rage Will does from here on out, but I just do not see Bryan returning to the well of putting either them or the dogs in danger past that point. Will going nuclear will be about him, Hannibal and Dolarhyde. The only way it's about them to an extent is that I expect it will irreparably destroy his marriage if it hasn't been already.
posted by sparkletone at 9:21 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


That hospital scene, it's hard not to read that as "well let's not try to upset each other any more but we're now, at the very least, going to need some time apart."

I had to email a friend who just put their beloved dog down that there was some DOG FEAR in this episode but THEYRE FINE THEYRE ALL FINE ALL DOGS ARE FINE.
posted by The Whelk at 7:18 AM on August 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


This does make me wish we'd gotten even one or two scenes of Will and Molly before Jack showed up. If we had a better idea of what their relationship used to be like, the hospital scene would have been more devastating...
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:58 AM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


That hospital scene, it's hard not to read that as "well let's not try to upset each other any more but we're now, at the very least, going to need some time apart."

Oh yeah, Molly's done with this shit; it may just take her some time to fully realize it, like in the book. I loved the little baseball images/sounds starting that scene. The Walter "I want to watch baseball" thing as a sign of shifting his affiliation from Will back to his father is a great Harris touch.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:36 AM on August 15, 2015


I do kind of think or hope that what Will does with Francis in the end is combine his impulses: help the wounded bird (or broken snake) BY crushing it, maybe even at Francis's request. That's in keeping with the theme of the book ending, that nature is irrevocably red in tooth and claw but humans can also be merciful, and sometimes killing a terminally wounded creature is the best or only option. I'd like that better than Will really going all Mr. Hyde Dark Side like he's on Supernatural. But I suspect Bryan has something much more interesting and fucked-up on the agenda!
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:50 AM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean, I can easily see Will going "Killing Francis is an act of mercy as well as revenge" and then applying that same logic to Hannibal, who's had it coming for 3 seasons, and then somehow getting caught and literally taking Hannibal's place*

*Or he frees him somehow or aids him, again with plans to kill, but it somehow stopped again. But that would feel like a retread not circular plotting
posted by The Whelk at 10:16 AM on August 15, 2015


the hospital scene would have been more devastating

I am perfectly fine with the level of devastating this episode was as-is, thank you very much.
posted by sparkletone at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Even I, certified shipper trash that I have apparently become, was totally like "WILL WHY ARE YOU STILL LISTENING TO THIS GUY YOU FUCKING MORON"

Preach it. Even making every allowance for the fact that Hannibal gonna Hannibal, I am so damn sick of his shit at this point that it'd be a relief if someone did stuff him into a woodchipper or drop a piano on him. I'm pretty sure that Will (who is way more resilient than he gets credit for) can cope fairly well with Hannibal's headgames, but bringing Molly and Walter and Reba into it makes me livid.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:20 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


But of course, as their last conversation (replete with lovely Faust quote, ha) shows, Hannibal siccing Francis on Molly and Walter was his version of a PowerPoint presentation designed to help Will figure out Francis's motives and mindset so that he can catch him more easily. Just Hanni being helpful, as usual. [gag]
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:25 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Will usually makes the dogs' food from scratch.

WELL OF COURSE HE DOES.


Molly: Honey, if I can forgive you for your murderhub almost killing my son, do you think . . . do you think you can forgive me for the Chinese dog food?

Will: [glowering]: No. Some betrayals are beyond forgiveness.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:44 PM on August 15, 2015 [5 favorites]


"[Star Wars: Rogue One] stars Felicity Jones, Diego Luna, Ben Mendelsohn, Donnie Yen, Alan Tudyk, Mads Mikkelsen, and Forrest Whittaker."

It turns out Bryan's radical plan is CANNIBALS. IN. SPAAAAAAACCCEEEEEEEEEE.
posted by sparkletone at 12:50 PM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Nice that the pattern of the air holes in the mask matched the speaker of the phone in Hanibal's office (seen straight after the eye/lights shot with the same pattern)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:49 PM on August 15, 2015


God I know I'll say it again but seeing him that mask, THE MASK (note, opaque now, not clear like Will's) was just so, so satisfying given how little of the Traditional Hannibal Lecter Stuff we've seen.
posted by The Whelk at 3:14 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mads in Star Wars ... I presume that Tumblr has totally melted down
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:23 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


It'll be interesting to see this ep in broadcast form tonight. One thing you can say for commercial breaks: they give you a chance to stop hyperventilating and recover a little before the next emotional trauma.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:28 PM on August 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh, I kept pausing it...
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:30 PM on August 15, 2015


Me too, but there's nothing like 4 minutes of Geico spots and America's Got Talent promos to take you out of yourself.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:51 PM on August 15, 2015


“Toss the dragon to someone else,” WELL THAT SOUNDS SWELL. D:

Dolarhyde really has no idea what Hannibal is getting at here, how intrigued by the splitting and othering of his Frances and GRDragon selves Hannibal is, and how Hannibal has already read the associations and assumed the number of the Beast. Like with many of the other murderers on this show, Hannibal is manipulating him to his own ends, namely to lash out at Will's new family. Dolarhyde didn't need to 'toss the dragon to someone else' because Hannibal was ready and waiting to rip it away from him and abuse it like the runt kid's play toy.

In an unrelated side-note, I wonder what Hannibal's eating in the BSHCI? Strict vegetarian diet?
posted by carsonb at 3:52 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hannibal is manipulating him to his own ends, namely to lash out at Will's new family

It felt to me like Hannibal was doing this both as a bitchy revenge maneuver but also to try to make Will realize that his new-found home life is a tissue paper lie and that it'll get torn eventually, either by Dolarhyde or by something else. An extension of their initial conversation in 3x08, as it were. That it has the effect of making Will go nuclear (or at least that's how that last scene really feels) and primes him to be a murderer again... Icing on the cake?

Book Hannibal seemed like he was doing it just for funsies and perhaps as a bit of revenge, and there is a bit of "just for funsies" to this version of Hannibal, but I like the extra shadings we get here from the vastly increased shared history between the two characters.
posted by sparkletone at 4:30 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sepinwall liked it overall, but complained about how dark the attack on Molly and Walter was. (I think Mr. Sepinwall needs to recalibrate his viewing device's display, as I had no trouble at all?)
posted by sparkletone at 8:06 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Dint seem dark to me. Apparently it was based on the Wendy and child run from The Shining ( so of course the black bald guy who came to thier rescue got shot)
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 PM on August 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


It was super dark to me, but that's not usual for the show. I hate it but have given up bitching because it's not just this show that seems to go for the pitch blackness all the damn time. And I'll have to make sure the subtitles are on for the rewatch, again as usual.

I also wish we had gotten a little Molly and Will before Jack shows up. It feels like a missed opportunity.
posted by PussKillian at 8:36 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, it was definitely dark even by this show's lighting standards, but I never once had trouble understanding the geography of the house and where everyone was at in relation to everyone else, which Sepinwall apparently did.
posted by sparkletone at 9:06 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I liked it when Alana took away Hannibal's toilet she gives him a little lecture first about keeping promises, then hollers over at the Hospital Staff Workers to take it. They go over and sort of peer at the gigantic stainless steel appliance, give it a little tug and a shake like it's just gonna pull away from the wall it's plumbed into. Setting up everyone except Alana and Denise at BSHCI as hapless?
posted by carsonb at 9:25 PM on August 15, 2015


OTOH, that's reading a bit much into a moment being played for comedy. On the other, at least Denise didn't try to mace the toilet.
posted by sparkletone at 9:53 PM on August 15, 2015


Macing the toilet would have actually been a decent temporary detriment while they called the plumber to come in and demolish it.
posted by carsonb at 10:00 PM on August 15, 2015


CANNIBAL EMOTIONS
posted by poffin boffin at 10:58 PM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


im sad about reba and frankie i really thought those crazy kids had a shot
posted by poffin boffin at 10:59 PM on August 15, 2015 [5 favorites]


(i fucking know it's canon settle down pedants)
posted by poffin boffin at 11:00 PM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]




Well, it's interesting how they handled the "hey let's drive him to suicide" suggestion and Alana's reaction.

In the book, Alan Bloom's distinguishing action, in the little time he was given, was to strenuously object to the idea because of how unethical it is.

Alana's expression definitely leaned towards the negative, she made this little moue of non-assent, but she didn't say no.

This is definite character development for Alana, who in season 1 actually jointly concocted, with Jack, the plan to provoke the real Chesapeake Ripper into "revealing himself", that is, killing. Though this isn't a mainstream view, I think the "Freddie thinks you two are a paradox" dinner conversation was her attempt to provoke Will into "revealing himself" by killing Freddie. Now that Alana actually has killed by her own hand, and is willing to break rules if she believes it serves ethical ends, she expresses that she's not necessarily keen on doing the same thing a third time.

Will's objection isn't ethical, it's pragmatic - the idea simply wouldn't work, because their quarry isn't suicidal.
posted by tel3path at 3:33 AM on August 16, 2015


Hannibal, you're an ass.

someone just kill him already

Also, Molly, you know you're just covering your ass and you just demonstrated why secrets are bad.
posted by tel3path at 3:43 AM on August 16, 2015


OH MY ACTUAL GOD

YOU KNOW HANNIBAL'S BEEN COMMUNICATING WITH THE GUY

HE JUST DROPPED TWO HEAVY HINTS IN YOUR MOST RECENT CONVERSATION

NOT ONLY ARE MOLLY AND WALTER NOT IN PROTECTIVE CUSTODY

BUT THERE WAS NOBODY LYING IN WAIT TO APPREHEND DOLARHYDE ON HIS WAY TO DO THE THING HE WAS SO OBVIOUSLY ABOUT TO DO.

AND THE COSMOS CRIED "DUH"

fucking criminal fucking negligents the lot of them

[punches hole in drywall]
posted by tel3path at 3:56 AM on August 16, 2015


will you are too good at mind-melding with the people around you because the moment you get near jack and alana we can actually see the iq points leaking out of your ears

but why, why go to see hannibal if you're not going to take the opportunity to top up those lost points? dammit

if i didn't know better i'd wonder if you wanted your family to get rubbed out.

will, you abject shithead
posted by tel3path at 3:58 AM on August 16, 2015


Okay, wouldn't it be funny if Walter had said "you killed a guy and they put you in a mental hospital"

and Will had said "Killed 'a' guy... which guy specifically was the article referring to?"

And no attempt whatsoever to defend himself, either. And Jack isn't going in there to say "listen here kid, it was like this..."

I mean "put him in a mental hospital" is a pretty gross distortion, even if you are anti-Will. I'm thinking the most anti-Will yet still truthful interpretation is "well not in that order... unless you count Garret Jacob Hobbs... ah ok yes that's a long story too".

And when Walter said to him you shouldn't put him in a mental hospital you should just kill him... you could interpret that a number of ways, maybe eventually it will mean "they should have just killed you".

Walter is indoctrinated in the mainstream redemptive violence myth where he thinks killing the bad guy will solve the problem, when the premise of the show is that it creates a viper's nest of new problems. He's wearing a blue t-shirt when he says it.

I think it's great how well rehearsed Molly and Walter are in this. I don't know if they have a pre-Will established practice in drilling for emergencies but I'm certain Will at least helped them refine the drills with his expert knowledge. They were both so on top of the situation, I find that unbelievably impressive. Everyone should rehearse like this. All the applause for Molly and Walter.
posted by tel3path at 4:18 AM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Handstand pushups, Francis is strong.

Wow just wow, though, having him break up with Reba straight-up. Reba, he's not doing the usual pansy thing of "oh i'm afraid i'll hurt you emotionally because i'm an emotional child" it's "I'm legit afraid I'll hurt you physically because I'm a serial killer who murders people in extravagant and gruesome ways and also I just beat myself up in the attic so you should take this seriously".

And... yeah, the time to be trusting Hannibal is pretty long past. They've all gotta stop with the Cult of Hannibal.

If only there were reasonably intelligent prison administrators elsewhere in the USA who didn't have to rely on past experience of Hannibal to implement and maintain security around him. Because you have to know Hannibal to know what he'll do (or actually know basically any other narcissistic psychopath to know what he might do) but then you end up totally ignoring what you know anyway so what is even the point of knowing it?
posted by tel3path at 4:33 AM on August 16, 2015


Well that answers the "does Molly know" question. When she says "I knew it was him" = "I knew it was the Tooth Fairy + I knew it was Hannibal". She's heard enough about Hannibal to understand and read his patterns. "I knew this had your crazy ex's fingerprints all over it."

And the whole "I told you to do it, Jack told you to do it, I blame Jack" Will pointing out that it was his decision and he did know better, just as Jack knew better. Why does nobody on this show think Will ever has any agency, such that Will has to point it out.

And Will now knows that he can't go home ever.

Or at least, he seems to have preemptively made that decision out of despair. I think the marriage is salvageable...

but that face he made, it was the equivalent of Francis telling Reba he was afraid he'd hurt her.

WILL, JUST KILL HANNIBAL ALREADY. HE'S GOT LIKE 3MM OF PLEXIGLASS BETWEEN YOU, EVEN I COULD BUST THROUGH THAT. YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING.

fucking wipe that fucking smirk off hannibal's smug face. someone, anyone, please help me. so fucking done with that crazy son of a bitch and his "the ugliness in humanity is not found in blah blah blah smth pretentious" SHUT UP
posted by tel3path at 4:42 AM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


fucking Hannibal, he is so not subtle "yes identify yourself with the Dragon, change and become a monster, you know you want to" JUST. STOP. LISTENING.

And firing Will up to think of how monstrous Dolarhyde is, just when Dolarhyde is at his most repentant, tender and vulnerable and the most open to at least the possibility of redemption. I mean, dammit, having the nerve to break up with Reba like a man. 90% of mentally "healthy" people can't do that (as Reba pointed out) and behold the moral courage of Francis.

Also note that his method of attacking the dogs was poison - with the uncertain outcome that that entails. Yeah I know he just tried to kill 7-8 dogs, a child, and an adult but he has a decent man inside him.

(so does hannibal but in hannibal's case it's because he ate him)
posted by tel3path at 4:48 AM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Welp.

Now the Tooth Fairy's broken his pattern, Will doesn't know what to expect. He could do anything-anything-anything.

Great job setting us up by being so faithful to the book, Bryan.

And then in comes Hannibal with his mocking "what did you think, personal ads and notes on toilet paper?"

Thought you knew what was coming, did you, Fannibals? Bryan IS Hannibal

and we cannot stay away from him
posted by tel3path at 4:51 AM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also, "you look different"? Yeah, he's a GQ shoot on legs right now.

And Molly's sheepskin-looking collar? You know what happens to lambs on this show. But it's okay because it was faux sheepskin so she only got nearly killed.
posted by tel3path at 4:58 AM on August 16, 2015


Also, that cupola Hannibal was looking up into at the start of the episode?

I need to rewatch to figure out if it's a real cupola.

Or rather, if the cupola really is directly above his cell. Because either he's seeing it, or he's visualizing it, and in both cases he's probably visualizing a means of escape.

Rewatching to check on this. The moment when we travel through the holes in the telephone handset, I mistook it for Hannibal looking up into the cupola.

How Jack and Alana restrained themselves from weeping buckets while listening to Dolarhyde on the phone, I can't imagine. Shows how Alana's recognition that he's trying to stop, was 1000000% right.

And Hannibal encouraging Will to tear the Dragon limb from limb, just when everyone else will be most like "oh precious killer very vulnerable must save from himself and cuddle in blankets and forgiveness" or maybe that's just me.

Lol Hannibal is dumb enough that he thinks it takes 3 minutes to trace a call or whatever. They obviously did get enough time, even though he pulled the plug at what he thought was the last second.
posted by tel3path at 5:15 AM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


That pants suit though. WANT

Is Alana displaying lacy underwear under there? She's just full of surprises.
posted by tel3path at 5:18 AM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hannibal paying Molly a compliment in observing that it "takes a little bit more than luck" to survive the Red Dragon.

Should we be charmed that he respects Molly in his own way? NO [1]

I bet you he was probing to see if they were under any kind of protective custody or police protection - sizing up what he has/had to get past.


[1] I mean it's possible that he does, but no-one should give a fuck about Hannibal's respect
posted by tel3path at 5:22 AM on August 16, 2015


Greeeeg Noooog where aaaaare you we neeeeeeeed you
posted by tel3path at 5:23 AM on August 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well there's two more episodes and with the attack on Molly and Walter the show has now used all the major set pieces from the novel. In fact, it's used almost all the major recognizable set pieces from all the books except for two from SOTL, the big Hannibal escape and the mutual stalking through chez Gumb Dolarhyde. (Well, it hasn't done it puts the lotion etc. either but I don't see how that fits in the remaining narrative here).
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:39 AM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, they referenced the lotion thing this season, right before Will bit Cordell's face off...

(Also there's one major unexplored set piece left from Red Dragon, it came right before the attack on Will and Molly's house, no spoilies)
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:15 AM on August 16, 2015


"Don't you want a change will?"

LORD HE DOES EVERYTHING BUT OPEN HIS CHEST AND PRESS IT AGAINST THE GLASS

"I hate you! I'll kill you and eat your brains! Kill your family! Hey let's not fight I'll stop trying to murder you if you agree to loooove me."
posted by The Whelk at 8:48 AM on August 16, 2015


The Vox review makes some interesting observations on how Hannibal and Will are framed:
We go from seeing the two of them at eye level, only the clear plastic wall of Hannibal's cell separating them, to Will shot from above, to make him seem smaller, more powerless, and out of control. Hannibal, meanwhile, is at the top of his powers, even if he's imprisoned. Rymer shoots him from below to make him seem looming, intimidating.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:17 AM on August 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


I think there are two unexplored set pieces, and one happens next week -- Fuller said a while back that Episodes 7 and 12 were the freakiest ones of the season, so. Already steeling myself for large scariness.

But there also should be a lot of original stuff both weeks, or maybe some Francis backstory too?
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:20 AM on August 16, 2015


Only two eps to go.... lots of the stuff from the book still left to cram in if they want to
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:30 AM on August 16, 2015


I'll stop trying to murder you if you agree to loooove me

Accurate except for the "I'll stop trying to murder you" part
posted by tel3path at 9:42 AM on August 16, 2015 [2 favorites]




visual proof that Hugh has all the coordination of a shaky baby deer
posted by The Whelk at 10:01 AM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


And it again confirms the idea that Will and Hannibal are playing Black and White in a chess game

alana's suits being white, even today looking nearly white, she's been playing on Hannibal's team without knowing it.

And that cable knit sweater and charcoal frock coat Will wears this week are to fucking die. incredible.
posted by tel3path at 10:03 AM on August 16, 2015


It's probably wrong of me to still be cackling about: "I said 'Save yourself; kill them all.' Then I gave him your home address. [pause] How's the wife?"
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:05 AM on August 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


I loved "How's the wife?"/"How's my wife?" Like, 'no, Hannibal, she's not Generic Wife Archetype, she's my wife whom I love very much, you dickface'
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:45 AM on August 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


Though both are probably true tbh - I think he really loves her but I also think he needed A Family of some kind in the aftermath of what happened with Hannibal.

Actually, now that I think about it, Will and Molly sort of mirror Hannibal and Bedelia. Both Will and Hannibal were loners by choice before they met, but after they got a taste of companionship with each other, they immediately set out looking for some other kind of family once they lost each other...
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:49 AM on August 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


It's dumb that Jack and Alana need Hannibal to keep Dolarhyde on the line when he calls. There obviously has to be a bit of time while Francis is on hold while they bring the call in to Hannibal. That alone would've given them enough time.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:03 PM on August 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


oy

i'm tired, have a migraine, and I've watched all of Chef's Table. Anyone got any recs for cooking shows since Hannibal isn't giving us that right now?

What a scandal that Molly would give Chinese dog food. No wonder she wanted to lie about it. They're not compatible.
posted by tel3path at 12:15 PM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I like that British Bakeoff show but then I am American so it's all very novel and exotic to me
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:27 PM on August 16, 2015


But Chopped is good if you prefer mercenary assholes you can feel superior to!
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:27 PM on August 16, 2015


Well, Hannibal really is providing all the mercenary assholes I need right now, and I don't think British people should be baking. if you were British you'd understand. They're still making up for the sugar rationing during World War 2.

All the shows on Netflix seem to be about food activism. it's depressing, but I'm sure Hannibal would be into it. modest proposal and all that.
posted by tel3path at 1:09 PM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I think it's facile for Hannibal, and maybe some viewers, to slag off Will's marriage as a sham, but Hannibal is really only talking about himself and his relationship with Bedelia - who was his shrink!!!! And Abigail, who he literally acquired to suit his own needs for a ready made family and discarded as soon as it was convenient. It should be obvious that Hannibal's the inadequate one.

i really don't think we can believe that Will's marriage is a sham, but I do think he realized it's something he'll have to give up for the safety of those he loves. i think I can guess what's coming next, and oh, man.

Similarly, Alana's relationship with Margot is convincing when you put together things Alana has said in the past, that she has brothers, that she (not having a great deal of empathy) figured out that CJ had sway over the kidnapped boys because the younger boys had a kind of unrequited attachment to older brothers who were separated from them by age or interests, and that in the discussion about birth order, the only unaccounted-for slot is that of youngest child. Now pair her with Margot, who suffered under an abusive brother that everyone treats as the golden child who can do no wrong. Coming in, Margot is guarding her physically incapacitated but still powerful big brother, who is still determined to fuck her over in every possible way and of course succeeds. Going out, Alana is the one guarding her physically incapacitated but still powerful big brother, who as we've seen is completely free to fuck her over and can be expected to continue.

And yet there were objections to the idea of Marlana before it happened, like, Margot was too fucked up for Alana considering she turned Will down on grounds of being unstable. Honestly, I think part of it is that Alana is very oriented towards power and would never have seriously considered anyone who couldn't confer substantial power and resources on her by association. I don't think this is a superficial/worldly thing per se, because Alana clearly isn't using her power selfishly right now. but also, I would hope Alana would have learned enough humility not to go "oh mercy me, I must not stain my purity by consorting with someone who has been defiled by [gasp] *bad experiences*! Avoid the unhappy and the unlucky!" And she has. and she has a willingness to actually have relationships and live life instead of being all "don't touch the world".

I mean, Margot has lived her life in a terrible situation with no options. she couldn't even say screw the money, and escape, because Mason was mobbed up - he would have had the connections to find her wherever she went, or at least she had good reason to think he would. I have serious doubts about some of her choices, especially around the idea of producing an heir for money (typically on this show, Margot was in a situation where killing was the least immoral of a range of bad choices open to her) but ultimately, unless you're going to say that being born a Verger was a fucked up choice and Margot ought to have known better, "fucked-up" is a really unfair name to call a lifelong abuse victim.

So Will works through his breakup with Hannibal, dumps him, gets married, clearly has disclosed everything in detail to his new wife, amd when his skills are needed in a time-sensitive case he is drawn back in - partly in the sincere belief that he can help, partly because he's drawn to his crazy ex. And Hannibal does all the things a crazy ex can, and Will realizes too late that he has to break up with Molly and Walter for their own safety (on reflection I think he wanted Walter to be alienated from him and that's why he didn't try to justify himself) and... I think he's going to take custody of Hannibal now since he's too much of a handful for Alana. That would be my guess.

So yeah. tl;dr I'd say the king of inadequacy in relationships is Hannibal, but of course he thinks he's the cool one. Heck Francis is better at relationships than Hannibal! Francis showed real strength of character this week. The poor guy.
posted by tel3path at 1:36 PM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


i really don't think we can believe that Will's marriage is a sham, but I do think he realized it's something he'll have to give up for the safety of those he loves. i think I can guess what's coming next, and oh, man.

I'm sure Will and Molly would have been fine if he had managed to stay away from the FBI and Hannibal, but that work even without his dickishness has some tough repercussions, and if the hospital scene shows anything, it's how much and how quickly Hannibal poisons everything around him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:51 PM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


i really don't think we can believe that Will's marriage is a sham, but I do think he realized it's something he'll have to give up for the safety of those he loves.

Much like Dolarhyde gave up Reba.

And Abigail, who he literally acquired to suit his own needs for a ready made family and discarded as soon as it was convenient.

Hannibal 'acquired' Abigail only after Will saved her life. He would have been content to stand there in that kitchen and watch her bleed out but at that point in their relationship he couldn't do that in front of Will. Will considered her to be his responsibility, and was putting himself in the father role, and fucking Hannibal felt that that took away from his relationship with Will so he snatched her and hid her away and killed her several times to hurt Will.

how much and how quickly Hannibal poisons everything around him.

Pretty much, yeah.
posted by carsonb at 3:56 PM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


AV club's substitute reviewer loved it too.

NOW WE WAIT FOR GREG NOG TO CATCH UP TO US, PREFERABLY IN SONG.
posted by sparkletone at 4:34 PM on August 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I think it's a big mistake to say Will and Molly's marriage is a sham because Will needed a family. Sure he did, but Molly also takes in strays and when you get down where the short hairs grow most people hook up for pretty inane reasons and it doesn't mean their love is a sham after it's had a while to develop. It will be interesting to see what happens in the aftermath of the attack in Fullerverse, but I doubt it would be anything as simple as Molly doing a Fullerverse Reba-Francis on Will.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:13 PM on August 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


I doubt it would be anything as simple as Molly doing a Fullerverse Reba-Francis on Will.

Oh, if the two of them don't make it past this season, I think it'll be because Will leaves her, in order to protect her from (what he sees as) his uncontrollable dark side.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:20 PM on August 16, 2015


from his uncontrollable dark side.

That wouldn't make much sense in either the book or any of the existing movies, but yeah in this series it's a possibility. As I posted earlier we are running out of Harris stuff at a rapid clip so most of what's left is goingto be Fuller's take on these characters.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:33 PM on August 16, 2015


Even I, certified shipper trash that I have apparently become, was totally like "WILL WHY ARE YOU STILL LISTENING TO THIS GUY YOU FUCKING MORON"

Whenever Hannigram gets too annoying, I just think about my favorite non-murderous smouldering devoted co-dependent self-shipping guitarhusbands, who have recently resumed their lifelong love affair.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:48 PM on August 16, 2015


Serious question: How secretly pleased do you think Hannibal is that his mask 1) has the same airholes as Will's and 2) matches the rest of his outfit? On top of taking his toilet when he misbehaves, Alana should dress him in a much less dignified manner.
posted by sparkletone at 8:42 PM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


deleted scene: hannibal gets alana to give him the actual mask will wore and then he makes the masks kiss
posted by poffin boffin at 10:05 PM on August 16, 2015 [13 favorites]


in various versions of this scene hannibal is played by almost anyone in this thread
posted by poffin boffin at 10:05 PM on August 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


deleted scene: hannibal gets alana to give him the actual mask will wore and then he makes the masks kiss

If anything has been pre-Tumblred, this has to be it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:13 AM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


F*** yeah I got my ludicrously expensive limited edition Hannibal Not Hannibal-Based Primavera Themed Eyeshadow Box Set
posted by tel3path at 12:07 PM on August 17, 2015


prevent me from drawing a cartoon of Bryan holding both masks and saying "Now kiss"
posted by The Whelk at 12:20 PM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Draw the cartoon with me as Hannibal, wearing my Primavera-themed eyeshadows
posted by tel3path at 12:22 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


whelk i INSIST that you do this immediately
posted by poffin boffin at 12:22 PM on August 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


do it do it do it do it

signed, your enablers
posted by tel3path at 12:24 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


You people are monsters
posted by The Whelk at 12:32 PM on August 17, 2015 [14 favorites]


yes excellent
posted by poffin boffin at 12:46 PM on August 17, 2015


[hovering over The Whelk's shoulder] If you hadn't begun your Becoming , you would never have been able to draw this cartoon. Now that you're transcending the body you currently occupy and assuming your higher form, you were able to achieve this lofty goal.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:45 PM on August 17, 2015 [3 favorites]




Lurking in these Hannibal threads as I watch has been most enjoyable. Thank you all.

I will step back into the shadows now, I suppose.
posted by The World Famous at 8:25 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Aaron Abrams is the guest on the This Is Our Design podcast for 3x11. I haven't listened yet, but something tells me this will be pretty funny...
posted by sparkletone at 8:39 PM on August 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I will step back into the shadows now, I suppose.

You mean... like this?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:49 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Esatto. Devo andarmene a mangiare, che ho un fame da morire.
posted by The World Famous at 10:44 PM on August 17, 2015


What The Flick loved it, a teeny tiny nitpick or two aside.
posted by sparkletone at 12:32 AM on August 18, 2015


A propos of Cleolinda, I was thinking about Alana as Mischa substitute.

How Alana used to be the littlest sister, how Hannibal shields her from seeing things she won't understand, how quickly other characters accept that Alana is too young to understand. What's exceptional about Alana, to me, is that he wasn't trying to convert her into a killer.

Or it may be that by tempting her to enable his framing of Will, and then to "bury" Will - that is, abandon her advocacy for him as a "mental patient" and consign him to the death penalty - killing through institutional violence was enough for Hannibal. But that doesn't really seem like Hannibal's style, he likes to see people get their hands dirty.

So, I think that besides Alana's practical value as social proof (for other characters) and morality pet (for us), she also represented the Mischa who adored her brother before knowing what he was. She always held that moment in time for him before Mischa saw through him, if she ever did. Perhaps the Mischas he cultivates now are the Mischa he would have cultivated back then if she'd lived that long. She represented unquestioning adoration, but it wasn't sustainable because children grow up. The Mischa who can kill with him and love him knowing he's a killer is the one who represents true intimacy.

And Alana eventually did kill, and also earned his respect at last (for a recognizable value of 'respect' to boot), and interestingly enough she might not even have had to kill to achieve that, which makes her even more of an exception. But she doesn't understand him, doesn't love him. All he has is her devotion.

That's got to bother him after a while.

The Hannibal who knocks Mischa unconscious to "protect" her, who busies Mischa interviewing PhD candidates so she won't connect the dots about Miriam Lass, because knowing who he truly is means death for her - and Alana sensed this and was so extremely resistant to growing up for that very reason - that Mischa really did die. She died even before she killed Mason, she said it herself: "We're all dead here, Mason. Didn't you know that?" And she taunts Hannibal that all he'll have will be "the company of the dead". He thinks briefly of Abigail, but the sequence shows us what "the company of the dead" really means to him when she slashes her father's neck. In one sense, Hannibal time isn't linear, so the dead are ever-present; but in another sense, the dead stay dead. Which is to say that Hannibal will be truly, finally, completely alone - except for Alana, who is also dead and inaccessible.

So I feel like Mischa-before-the-fall has truly entered the past, in a way things in this show usually don't enter the past. And I feel like with that loss of innocence, whatever remote pretence of civility or humanity ever had has been lost with it. I don't think it's just a stripping away of appearances, I think he really is more bitter and more despairing than he ever was.

Mumble mumble Primavera being a representation of Neoplatonic ideas, whereby evil is merely an absence of good. Molly wears the same colours as Reba the first time we see her who wears the same blouse as Bella back in season 1; Reba and Bella both wear angelic drapery and their hair in ringlets. The absence of Bella seems to have hardened into an absence of compassion in Jack, just as the presence of Reba awakened compassion in Francis, and the company of Molly allowed dark!Will to recede into the shadows for a time.

Well in the same way, absence of Will is hardening Hannibal into... the utter bastard he always was, but more so. If such a thing were possible. Alana can't take away anything he truly wants because the thing he truly wants is Will. Maybe it isn't Alana who's the only one who can contain Hannibal's evil - maybe it's Will.
posted by tel3path at 2:51 AM on August 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Greg Nog?

Where are you Greg

We don't know how to interpret the last two episodes without you Greg

are you okay can we send care packages or do you need some ping pong balls to make the eyes or something
posted by tel3path at 1:18 PM on August 18, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think he might be in the middle of moving to a new state rn
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:26 PM on August 18, 2015


BUT WHAT ABOUT THE IMPORTANT STUFF
posted by tel3path at 2:10 PM on August 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh hey, holy shit
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:50 PM on August 18, 2015


Aaron Abrams is the guest on the This Is Our Design podcast for 3x11.

Listened to this. Aaron does crack some jokes, but generally just comes across as smart and insightful and as big a fan of the show as anyone else is. It is spoiler free though he does say some thing about Will's arc for the last two episodes that... They're incredibly vague. Much less spoilery than stuff Bryan cheerfully tosses off and it's not anything difficult to extrapolate from the final scene of 3x11.
posted by sparkletone at 9:17 PM on August 18, 2015


Apparently there is a type of light-sensitive camera that can film actors even if lit by one candle. It's called a Red Dragon
posted by The Whelk at 12:28 PM on August 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


So THAT'S how Kubrick did Barry Lyndon.
posted by sparkletone at 1:47 PM on August 19, 2015


I keep reading that Hannibal could walk out of that prison any time he felt like it.

Well, maybe. I think we're seeing the equivalent of book!Hannibal before he ate the nurse's tongue. Ostensibly on good behaviour.

And yeah, he did turn himself in and he did do it because he had faith that Will would come back to him and now he's getting frustrated.

But the thing is... I think we're meant to perceive that 3mm acrylic as really really strong glass.

I think that part of the reasoning for his exceptional cell is to keep him isolated from the other prisoners, knowing he'll recruit them given half a chance. I've seen Alana getting stick for underestimating him, but they're all doing that, and I do think she's on the ball in a lot of ways, including limiting his contact with the outside world.

book!Hannibal couldn't just walk out of prison any time he felt like it. For all he's this mega-powerful Murder Sue, he was stuck in that jail as long as Barney had anything to do with it. Denise is clearly a Barney expy, with all the powers of Barney. Chilton wasn't necessarily the best person to keep Hannibal under control - but that didn't matter because Barney was far far superior. It was on Barney's day off that Hannibal escaped.

And being able to phone freak calls to your lawyer isn't much help if nobody useful is waiting for your call. It was Dolarhyde who reached out to Hannibal, Dolarhyde who hacked the landline in Hannibal's office, and Dolarhyde who spoofed Hannibal's lawyer's phone. Hannibal could not have done this alone.

I mean if Hannibal is that powerful, and is only in jail because he wants to be there, then why doesn't he just dislodge the acrylic panel, lay it carefully against the wall, go down the hall and retrieve his toilet, plumb it back in, wash his hands, and carefully put the acrylic panel back in the doorframe? I'm sure he'd like to do that, so if Hannibal is such a master of his own destiny, why hasn't he?
posted by tel3path at 12:02 PM on August 20, 2015


I think it's not that people literally think he could simply walk out whenever; it's that he has shown himself to be very intelligent and resourceful, and so if his #1 goal was to break out, it's likely he could figure out a way to do it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:07 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, he did, in the books. It just took him aaaaaaaaaaaaages to get an opportunity. *And* his number one goal was to break out.

Ted Bundy broke out at least twice IIRC. And he didn't need to be superintelligent to do so. (Yes he was smart, but not that smart. He apparently had an IQ of 129 or something, which is probably about where Alana and Jack are at. [1])

When the chips are down, anyone's an idiot to think they can contain Hannibal (I say this in response to all the "they're/Alana is an idiot(s) to think they can contain Hannibal". They are, but their doing so is along a chain of events in which a bargain was struck to etc etc we all know that, and it's not particularly nice to ask him all those favours and then turn round and try to get him executed for his troubles. Not to mention all the opportunities to lose control of him during the timeline between now and execution.

All of which contributed to the naivete they're showing now.

So yeah, it probably is stupid to think they can contain Hannibal but the actual problem is they aren't mean enough.

Oh and, on the theme of "guys being slightly redeemed by the love of a good woman", I'm imagining what Chilton might be like if someone believed in him just a little.

My earlier imaginings about Bedelia seeing in Chilton what nobody's ever seen before, and being enchanted by him, seem especially hilarous of late.

[1] Did you know Ann Rule died at the end of July? I was pretty upset about that.
posted by tel3path at 3:24 PM on August 20, 2015


My earlier imaginings about Bedelia seeing in Chilton what nobody's ever seen before, and being enchanted by him, seem especially hilarous of late.

Ahaha just imagine the two of them in a Hannigram-style relationship.

They ARE both pretty great at throwing shade on absolutely everyone...
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:40 PM on August 20, 2015


It wasn't on Barney's day off that Book!Hannibal escaped, it was on Barney's day off that he collected the pen parts to make his handcuff key.

Fanfare: the actual problem is they aren't mean enough.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:40 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


A Childelia relationship wouldn't even need words, they'd communicate exclusively in side-eye and shrugs.
posted by The Whelk at 3:42 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


they'd communicate exclusively in side-eye and shrugs.

So this would be different from Hannidelia ... how?
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:27 PM on August 20, 2015


A Childelia relationship wouldn't even need words, they'd communicate exclusively in side-eye and shrugs.

Eww. She is approx. 100002342349238402938402934823984234 times too god for him. He is exactly the sort of creature she indicated last week she'd crush.

So this would be different from Hannidelia ... how?

Less murder-y, worse food, tackier decor, etc, etc.
posted by sparkletone at 8:06 PM on August 20, 2015


So this would be different from Hannidelia ... how?

Well, Bedelia is the Hannibal in this scenario
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 PM on August 20, 2015


Bedelia would be ill suited to Chilton as a romantic partner or anything close to equal but I kind of feel they'd be good cocktail party friends, Chilton makes snarky comments and Bedelia smiles in the nanoscale , Befelia would bring him to All the best parties and he'd Just be campily and prissily exasperated at things.

They can just have lunch.
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Now that I would love to see.
posted by sparkletone at 9:50 PM on August 20, 2015


I read Chilton as being queerer then he is textually just cause I..like AM HIM to an alarming degree but he'd be basically Bedelia's best pal in going to gallery openings or ballet shows.
posted by The Whelk at 10:34 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


If Hannibal was a bad chef...
posted by sparkletone at 10:53 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


I read Chilton as being queerer then he is textually just cause I..like AM HIM to an alarming degree but he'd be basically Bedelia's best pal in going to gallery openings or ballet shows.

I remember a bit in Silence Of The Lambs were Clarice completely analyses Clinton from the one line he says - when he's all pissed off at having to stay late to let her see Lecter - 'I had a ticket for Holiday on Ice' (emphasis mine)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:56 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


I was thinking more along the lines of Inspector Clouseau.
posted by tel3path at 2:20 AM on August 21, 2015


So many stairs to fall down.
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 AM on August 21, 2015


Now with more puppets.
posted by sparkletone at 2:15 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm catching up on this after vacation, and to be honest the Red Dragon storyline just isn't grabbing me that much. Does anyone else feel like this lost some steam with Hannibal captured?
posted by codacorolla at 4:05 PM on August 27, 2015


It's kind of hard for me to assess it on its own merits, because I read the book right before the storyline began and so have been approaching it as "what adaptation choices are they making." It's fun that way but I almost wish I'd held off on the books until after it was over.

I think this plot suffers from a lack of breathing room - like, we just don't have time to spend with, say, Alana and Margot, or with Jack. In previous seasons, they and other secondary characters were still acting in service to the Hannibal and Will stuff, we didn't spend a ton of time with them outside of that context, but they also had a bit more time to exist as their own characters.

But nevertheless, I've found more to like than dislike in each episode of this arc. Nothing has outright frustrated me like, say, the third episode of the season did...
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:07 PM on August 27, 2015


secondary characters were still acting in service to the Hannibal and Will stuff

To be honest, they're still acting in service of the Hannibal and Will stuff, it's just they're... particularly secondary given that they have to take the time to give real weight to Dolarhyde in not a lot of time. I think they've managed it about as well as you could ask for. It's not like Alan Bloom was a major figure in the books and even Jack's been a bigger part of this imo than he was in the novel.

I'm with Bryan et al when I feel like the gonzo art movie tone of the first half of the season wasn't sustainable over 13 episodes, and while perhaps this cuts too far back in the other direction in terms of plotting, it's not unwelcome for me. Watching what they do with this story with an extra 2.5 seasons of back story and a massively increased role for Hannibal has been an extra layer of enjoyment on top of personally finding the episodes plenty gripping just taken on their own (as much as I can take them on their own).
posted by sparkletone at 6:10 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's really funny that we're complaining about "not enough time" to explore Red Dragon considering it's been done in two theatrical movies which were both under 2 hours, and the series is giving it 4 hours over 6 episodes. It's really a testament to how deeply the series has rendered these characters compared to what a single movie could do, or even what Thomas Harris did in the books, that we feel shortchanged by that.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:41 PM on August 27, 2015


So, I've been watching Buffy for the first time, and I'm on episode 1.06, with the demonic hyenas and such, and the hyena-people eat the principal and Giles comes in to the library to break the news...
Giles: The rest of the pack were spotted outside Herbie the mascot's cage. They were sent to the principal's office.
Willow: Good, that'll show 'em. (Giles looks downcast) Did it show 'em?
Buffy: They didn't hurt him, did they?
Giles: They...uh..ate him.
Buffy: They ate Principal Fluti?
Willow: Ate him up?

And since everything in my world relates back to Hannibal right now, I immediately thought of the moment Will says "He ate it up!"

I'll show myself out....
posted by fancyoats at 8:53 PM on September 20, 2015


I'm finally watching this season and I have a wild theory about the end that I want to get out on the very slim chance it's correct.

I'm wondering if the big change and Fuller's radical vision for season 4 is that Hannibal escapes a la SOTL and Will cracks somehow and his 'wrath' against Dolarhyde is sufficiently outside the law that he ends up back in BSHCI all set to play Hannibal's role in SOTL. A bitter, betrayed could play a pretty similar role.
posted by raeka at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]


All anyone can/should tell you at this point is to keep watching and find out!
posted by sparkletone at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]


And also to share more of your thoughts, cause I love seeing these threads bumped up in my activity by recent viewers
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2015


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