Doctor Who: Before the Flood
October 10, 2015 3:27 PM - Season 9, Episode 4 - Subscribe
On a remote army outpost, a fearsome alien warlord called the Fisher King sets in motion a twisted plan to ensure his own survival. The ripples will be felt around the universe. Is this chain of events inevitable? And can the Doctor do the unthinkable?
It's been awhile since I enjoyed a Who episode as much as I did this one. Loved the opening "4th wall" scene, too. Still not sold on the sonic sunglasses, though.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:07 PM on October 10, 2015
posted by Thorzdad at 8:07 PM on October 10, 2015
Yeah, the sonic sunglasses are decidedly NOT growing on me. Likes the episode a lot otherwise though.
posted by sarcasticah at 8:21 PM on October 10, 2015
posted by sarcasticah at 8:21 PM on October 10, 2015
I liked this two parter. I think this second half is the stronger of the two, and the writing is as fresh as the Moffat episodes were during the RTD era.
posted by Catblack at 8:37 PM on October 10, 2015
posted by Catblack at 8:37 PM on October 10, 2015
Oh hey we've got a deaf character who has been portrayed pretty well so far, no one has said anything about it, it's all cool, let's get some Daredevil/Metalbender bullshit going on and give her fucking superpowers.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 9:03 PM on October 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 9:03 PM on October 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Should be noted that Toby Whitacre wrote this.
Loved hearing a non-orchestral version of the theme.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:03 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Loved hearing a non-orchestral version of the theme.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:03 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
let's get some Daredevil/Metalbender bullshit going on and give her fucking superpowers.
I get what you're saying and that scene was weird and awkward, but I don't think they meant to say she had superpowers. I think it would have been much better handled if she just put her hand to the floor and her expression showed us she was feeling the vibration of the ax being dragged behind her. The scritchy filter stuff was a step too far.
I am very impressed with Capaldi's version of the Doctor and I think going older/scrappier has proven to be a good decision for the latest incarnation. But the 4th wall-busting stuff is starting to feel like a bit much to me and I think they're trying too hard to make him cool. This Doctor is cool, you don't need to try and sell us on the idea with awesome shades and electric guitar solos. If anything, it's a testament to what a cool dude he is that he even seems cool despite all this strained "cool guy" stuff. Capaldi's got a great, sneering old punk vibe going but the guitar and the shades strike me as a bit desperate and midlife crisis-y, like any episode now he's going to engage the Chameleon Circuit and transmography the TARDIS into a sporty red convertible.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:13 PM on October 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I get what you're saying and that scene was weird and awkward, but I don't think they meant to say she had superpowers. I think it would have been much better handled if she just put her hand to the floor and her expression showed us she was feeling the vibration of the ax being dragged behind her. The scritchy filter stuff was a step too far.
I am very impressed with Capaldi's version of the Doctor and I think going older/scrappier has proven to be a good decision for the latest incarnation. But the 4th wall-busting stuff is starting to feel like a bit much to me and I think they're trying too hard to make him cool. This Doctor is cool, you don't need to try and sell us on the idea with awesome shades and electric guitar solos. If anything, it's a testament to what a cool dude he is that he even seems cool despite all this strained "cool guy" stuff. Capaldi's got a great, sneering old punk vibe going but the guitar and the shades strike me as a bit desperate and midlife crisis-y, like any episode now he's going to engage the Chameleon Circuit and transmography the TARDIS into a sporty red convertible.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:13 PM on October 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
What annoyed me about the Cass in the tunnels thing was that Whithouse made this big point of establishing her as the smartest human in the room, and yet it didn't occur to her to check behind her regularly? Really?
I had a couple of small gripes aside from that, but overall I really enjoyed this two-parter and I hope series 9 keeps going as strong as it has in the first third.
posted by bettafish at 10:36 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had a couple of small gripes aside from that, but overall I really enjoyed this two-parter and I hope series 9 keeps going as strong as it has in the first third.
posted by bettafish at 10:36 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I get what you're saying and that scene was weird and awkward, but I don't think they meant to say she had superpowers. I think it would have been much better handled if she just put her hand to the floor and her expression showed us she was feeling the vibration of the ax being dragged behind her. The scritchy filter stuff was a step too far.
I am in agreement with you, but drawing in the static-y vortex world where she can see IN HER MIND the axe head being dragged across the ground is in such opposition to the badass deaf lady that no one ever made a fuss about - the "puts her hand to the floor and realizes OH NO AXE PERSON" would be better. I really feel that it was a well done character and then they went "Yes also the deaf have super heightened senses don't you know."
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 10:42 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am in agreement with you, but drawing in the static-y vortex world where she can see IN HER MIND the axe head being dragged across the ground is in such opposition to the badass deaf lady that no one ever made a fuss about - the "puts her hand to the floor and realizes OH NO AXE PERSON" would be better. I really feel that it was a well done character and then they went "Yes also the deaf have super heightened senses don't you know."
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 10:42 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, also in close up the axe didn't look very much like it was all metal.
posted by biffa at 10:45 PM on October 10, 2015
posted by biffa at 10:45 PM on October 10, 2015
It wasn't explicitly defined as such at the time, but the episode "Blink" touched upon the whole bootstrap paradox thing first. Other classic examples include the invention of transparent aluminum in Star Trek IV (and possibly the existence of the pair of eyeglasses McCoy gifted to Kirk).
posted by Pryde at 11:04 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Pryde at 11:04 PM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
So Bennett has not had the message erased from his brain. Heck of a loose plot thread, as we leave him gazing longingly into the Faraday Cage containing the ghost of his dead love...
posted by Coaticass at 12:28 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Coaticass at 12:28 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Fun episode. Someone who hadn't seen the show before could do worse than jump into that two-parter to get a sense of the flavor and cleverness of the show. And no Daleks! That was some good Who.
posted by homunculus at 1:12 AM on October 11, 2015
posted by homunculus at 1:12 AM on October 11, 2015
I liked it, not as much as the first half, but I remain baffled by the Fisher King's "plot", which was confused and overly complicated.
posted by Mezentian at 1:54 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Mezentian at 1:54 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Should be noted that Toby Whitacre wrote this.
Not to quibble, but it's Toby Whithouse, creator of the nearly 100% awesome Being Human. I know I snarled and snarked about the Moffatt season opener, but this was much, much more fun. There was emotional investment in the running through corridors, a marvellously creepy location for the monster, and the dam burst was pretty cool. Also, that was a great rubber suit.
Which just made the tedious Moffatt wankery of the guitar, 'sonic glasses' and Beethoven all the more obviously lame. Surrounded by an actually Doctor-Who-ish Doctor Who story, they stuck out like the kind of half-arsed tosh that inhabits bad kids shows: the Whovian equivalent of TV teenagers saying "Cool city! Max awesome!" Given that Whithouse has actually proved he can write things I care about (OMG GEORGE NO) the wibbly-wobbly stuff stuck out like werewolf's bollocks.
Moffatt OUT!
posted by prismatic7 at 4:33 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not to quibble, but it's Toby Whithouse, creator of the nearly 100% awesome Being Human. I know I snarled and snarked about the Moffatt season opener, but this was much, much more fun. There was emotional investment in the running through corridors, a marvellously creepy location for the monster, and the dam burst was pretty cool. Also, that was a great rubber suit.
Which just made the tedious Moffatt wankery of the guitar, 'sonic glasses' and Beethoven all the more obviously lame. Surrounded by an actually Doctor-Who-ish Doctor Who story, they stuck out like the kind of half-arsed tosh that inhabits bad kids shows: the Whovian equivalent of TV teenagers saying "Cool city! Max awesome!" Given that Whithouse has actually proved he can write things I care about (OMG GEORGE NO) the wibbly-wobbly stuff stuck out like werewolf's bollocks.
Moffatt OUT!
posted by prismatic7 at 4:33 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think it would have been much better handled if she just put her hand to the floor and her expression showed us she was feeling the vibration of the ax being dragged behind her. The scritchy filter stuff was a step too far.
I thought the editing and her acting adequately communicated what was going on it that scene. As she was walking down the hall, she looked to have a slightly puzzled look on her face, as if she was slightly distracted.
I thought the filtery close-up of the axe dragging on the ground was annoying, too. Mostly because it felt like "In case some of you are too thick to get what's happening, we'll spell it out for you." I mean, if you've watched tv and movies enough, you're undoubtedly well-versed in the time-honored "deaf/blind people's other senses become more acute to compensate" trope. Honestly, I was hoping they wouldn't play that one, but...
posted by Thorzdad at 5:27 AM on October 11, 2015
I thought the editing and her acting adequately communicated what was going on it that scene. As she was walking down the hall, she looked to have a slightly puzzled look on her face, as if she was slightly distracted.
I thought the filtery close-up of the axe dragging on the ground was annoying, too. Mostly because it felt like "In case some of you are too thick to get what's happening, we'll spell it out for you." I mean, if you've watched tv and movies enough, you're undoubtedly well-versed in the time-honored "deaf/blind people's other senses become more acute to compensate" trope. Honestly, I was hoping they wouldn't play that one, but...
posted by Thorzdad at 5:27 AM on October 11, 2015
the guitar and the shades strike me as a bit desperate and midlife crisis-y, like any episode now he's going to engage the Chameleon Circuit and transmography the TARDIS into a sporty red convertible.
Well he hangs around with much younger women a lot... he just needs the tattoo
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:43 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well he hangs around with much younger women a lot... he just needs the tattoo
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:43 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
This was fun, but I felt like it was hampered by a few things:
* The Fisher King's plot didn't make any sense to me, really. Generally speaking, when someone is dead and in need of a resurrection, they can't wander around and murder people with impunity. I also didn't much understand why his people couldn't already know where he was, given that he had the opportunity to make funeral arrangements with the most obliging people in the galaxy. (For that matter, I don't understand why one of his own people couldn't have piloted the ship, and simply told his armada where they were going.)
I realize Doctor Who often makes less than no sense, it was just really jarring to hear a guy that's walking and talking, clearly corporeal and physically outclassing any human or Time Lord in his path, going on about how he would soon be alive again. I would've been happier if it had been something like, 'Every Deathmas on my planet, we make some ghosts out of lesser species and torch their planet as a large scale Wicker Man, because we must trick them into inviting us or the sacrifice doesn't count' or something. Just... you know, any nod to the guy is walking around and didn't need a convoluted ghost radio.
* Didn't like the fourth wall breaking scene up front, and I hate the sunglasses. (They didn't need to go over the Bootstrap Paradox pre-episode. The dialogue at the end of the episode covered it just fine. Doing it twice felt like a bunch of 'tell, don't show' combined with 'our audience must have the attention span of drunken goldfish.')
* Capaldi is great. A++ would watch him in whatever. Unlike the stupid sunglasses, the guitar is fine because that was a great take on the intro theme.
* I am actually enjoying Clara's arc this season, since we've gone from 'magical girl invented just to save the Doctor' to an examination of how a normal, perfectly nice human being can turn cold and calculating in the company of the Doctor. I realize it's a running theme in nuWho, but it's the only consequence of all the free floating Doctor worship in nuWho that I'm actually okay with.
* Didn't mind the Daredevil SFX connected to the axe vibrations. I don't think it was strictly necessary, but unlike the intro Beethoven talk, it flowed with the action that was actually on the screen.
* I liked the crew of the station, and I did think the ghosts were very well executed. The atmosphere was great.
posted by mordax at 9:41 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
* The Fisher King's plot didn't make any sense to me, really. Generally speaking, when someone is dead and in need of a resurrection, they can't wander around and murder people with impunity. I also didn't much understand why his people couldn't already know where he was, given that he had the opportunity to make funeral arrangements with the most obliging people in the galaxy. (For that matter, I don't understand why one of his own people couldn't have piloted the ship, and simply told his armada where they were going.)
I realize Doctor Who often makes less than no sense, it was just really jarring to hear a guy that's walking and talking, clearly corporeal and physically outclassing any human or Time Lord in his path, going on about how he would soon be alive again. I would've been happier if it had been something like, 'Every Deathmas on my planet, we make some ghosts out of lesser species and torch their planet as a large scale Wicker Man, because we must trick them into inviting us or the sacrifice doesn't count' or something. Just... you know, any nod to the guy is walking around and didn't need a convoluted ghost radio.
* Didn't like the fourth wall breaking scene up front, and I hate the sunglasses. (They didn't need to go over the Bootstrap Paradox pre-episode. The dialogue at the end of the episode covered it just fine. Doing it twice felt like a bunch of 'tell, don't show' combined with 'our audience must have the attention span of drunken goldfish.')
* Capaldi is great. A++ would watch him in whatever. Unlike the stupid sunglasses, the guitar is fine because that was a great take on the intro theme.
* I am actually enjoying Clara's arc this season, since we've gone from 'magical girl invented just to save the Doctor' to an examination of how a normal, perfectly nice human being can turn cold and calculating in the company of the Doctor. I realize it's a running theme in nuWho, but it's the only consequence of all the free floating Doctor worship in nuWho that I'm actually okay with.
* Didn't mind the Daredevil SFX connected to the axe vibrations. I don't think it was strictly necessary, but unlike the intro Beethoven talk, it flowed with the action that was actually on the screen.
* I liked the crew of the station, and I did think the ghosts were very well executed. The atmosphere was great.
posted by mordax at 9:41 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
like any episode now he's going to engage the Chameleon Circuit and transmography the TARDIS into a sporty red convertible.
Now I'm going to be so disappointed if Capaldi doesn't drive around in Bessie for an episode.
posted by Gary at 10:12 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Now I'm going to be so disappointed if Capaldi doesn't drive around in Bessie for an episode.
posted by Gary at 10:12 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
our audience must have the attention span of drunken goldfish
Or maybe it's also aimed at kids who can use the reinforcement? It is a family show, y'all. So they doubled down on the thematic discussion, possibly aiming toward the season arc, and they showed the deaf woman feeling the scraping of the axe. I could have done without it but I'm not buying it as wrong for Doctor Who.
I'm really enjoying this season and even the sonic sunglasses don't harsh my mellow. (Nor did the rubber monster that was the Fisher King. Takes me right back to the Fourth Doctor.) And as a middle-aged woman, I like that Twelve has exactly zero fucks to give about whether you think his guitar playing or whatever is cool or not. I really did like the new version of the theme though I don't think they'll actually keep it.
posted by immlass at 11:24 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Or maybe it's also aimed at kids who can use the reinforcement? It is a family show, y'all. So they doubled down on the thematic discussion, possibly aiming toward the season arc, and they showed the deaf woman feeling the scraping of the axe. I could have done without it but I'm not buying it as wrong for Doctor Who.
I'm really enjoying this season and even the sonic sunglasses don't harsh my mellow. (Nor did the rubber monster that was the Fisher King. Takes me right back to the Fourth Doctor.) And as a middle-aged woman, I like that Twelve has exactly zero fucks to give about whether you think his guitar playing or whatever is cool or not. I really did like the new version of the theme though I don't think they'll actually keep it.
posted by immlass at 11:24 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now I'm going to be so disappointed if Capaldi doesn't drive around in Bessie for an episode.
Ahem
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:32 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ahem
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:32 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Or maybe it's also aimed at kids who can use the reinforcement? It is a family show, y'all.
Yes, that occurred to me. Couple problems with it:
1) Being 'for the kids' is not an excuse for lazy storytelling. For instance, I am much, much older than the intended audience for Steven Universe, and they never resort to that. (Older Simpsons never did either, back when they expected children to watch it with parents. Or anyone to watch it at all, I guess.)
2) They weren't taking time out to explain something anybody actually needed to know, like the alphabet, or 'Don't take candy from strangers.' The Bootstrap Paradox isn't actually a real thing, it's just a science fiction trope that's already been addressed by Doctor Who on any number of prior occasions, as mentioned upthread. Blink did it better, frankly. Someone just thought they were being Very Clever, and wanted to make absolutely sure nobody in the audience missed how Very Clever they were being. That's not my biggest Moffat complaint, but it's on the list.
It's fine if you're having fun and willing to give them a pass on this. I think in my case, it's partly that I tell stories for a living, so I'm sort of having a 'doctor watching House and yelling at the TV' moment.
I really did like the new version of the theme though I don't think they'll actually keep it.
Yeah. Sad, but likely true.
posted by mordax at 12:46 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, that occurred to me. Couple problems with it:
1) Being 'for the kids' is not an excuse for lazy storytelling. For instance, I am much, much older than the intended audience for Steven Universe, and they never resort to that. (Older Simpsons never did either, back when they expected children to watch it with parents. Or anyone to watch it at all, I guess.)
2) They weren't taking time out to explain something anybody actually needed to know, like the alphabet, or 'Don't take candy from strangers.' The Bootstrap Paradox isn't actually a real thing, it's just a science fiction trope that's already been addressed by Doctor Who on any number of prior occasions, as mentioned upthread. Blink did it better, frankly. Someone just thought they were being Very Clever, and wanted to make absolutely sure nobody in the audience missed how Very Clever they were being. That's not my biggest Moffat complaint, but it's on the list.
It's fine if you're having fun and willing to give them a pass on this. I think in my case, it's partly that I tell stories for a living, so I'm sort of having a 'doctor watching House and yelling at the TV' moment.
I really did like the new version of the theme though I don't think they'll actually keep it.
Yeah. Sad, but likely true.
posted by mordax at 12:46 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Add another 139 years to the Doctor's age.
I wish they'd stop teasing the Doctor's death. It's been a major plot point in too many recent episodes.
posted by painquale at 12:52 PM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I wish they'd stop teasing the Doctor's death. It's been a major plot point in too many recent episodes.
posted by painquale at 12:52 PM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
'our audience must have the attention span of drunken goldfish.'
While I am usually drunk the first time I watch an episode, I sir, am no goldfish!
Flatmate and I were just remarking to one another how done we were with sonic sunglasses...especially ones that can pick up WiFi inside a faraday cage. I guess it shouldn't surprise us. Moffat having already shown he does not understand how WiFi works.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 2:57 PM on October 11, 2015
While I am usually drunk the first time I watch an episode, I sir, am no goldfish!
Flatmate and I were just remarking to one another how done we were with sonic sunglasses...especially ones that can pick up WiFi inside a faraday cage. I guess it shouldn't surprise us. Moffat having already shown he does not understand how WiFi works.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 2:57 PM on October 11, 2015
They weren't taking time out to explain something anybody actually needed to know
WTF people, Doctor Who is not an educational show in that sense and hasn't been for decades, if it ever was. The writer wanted to emphasize the bootstrap paradox either for purposes of this episode or purposes of something else in the season, like part of the (bleah) season arc. I know Metafilter is the home of the beanplate, but Moffat really isn't that clever and he telegraphs what he's doing pretty clearly. It doesn't have to be that hard.
posted by immlass at 3:56 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
WTF people, Doctor Who is not an educational show in that sense and hasn't been for decades, if it ever was. The writer wanted to emphasize the bootstrap paradox either for purposes of this episode or purposes of something else in the season, like part of the (bleah) season arc. I know Metafilter is the home of the beanplate, but Moffat really isn't that clever and he telegraphs what he's doing pretty clearly. It doesn't have to be that hard.
posted by immlass at 3:56 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
WTF people, Doctor Who is not an educational show in that sense and hasn't been for decades
Well said there. While it's had it's educational moments, DW has never pretended to be hard sci-fi and never will. It's children's tv/family viewing, and best criticised with this in mind.
I'm not sure I liked the bootstrap exposition here, mainly because Blink didn't lay it on anywhere near as thickly and look at what happened there. Massive fan favourite. That said, we've already seen that 12 likes to talk to himself/the fourth wall, and yes, I agree we're probably setting something up for later in the run, so, it's OK.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 4:51 PM on October 11, 2015
Well said there. While it's had it's educational moments, DW has never pretended to be hard sci-fi and never will. It's children's tv/family viewing, and best criticised with this in mind.
I'm not sure I liked the bootstrap exposition here, mainly because Blink didn't lay it on anywhere near as thickly and look at what happened there. Massive fan favourite. That said, we've already seen that 12 likes to talk to himself/the fourth wall, and yes, I agree we're probably setting something up for later in the run, so, it's OK.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 4:51 PM on October 11, 2015
/Well he hangs around with much younger women a lot... he just needs the tattoo
To be fair, when you are 2300 years old or whatever we are up to now, the pool of women your own age is pretty tiny.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 5:06 PM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
To be fair, when you are 2300 years old or whatever we are up to now, the pool of women your own age is pretty tiny.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 5:06 PM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wish they'd stop teasing the Doctor's death. It's been a major plot point in too many recent episodes.
"Doctor, you're going to die in the future!"
"Oh no! Woe is me! It cannot be changed! I shall die!"
[Doctor doesn't die]
"Doctor, you're going to die!"
"Oh, if only it could be changed, but it can't! Surely, this is my end!"
[Doctor doesn't die]
"Doctor, you're going to die!"
"There's no way out of this! None! I am to die, and I cannot escape this fate!"
[Doctor doesn't die]
I know all the timeywimey stuff is very complex, but I've picked up on something of a correlation, and you think the Doctor would, too.
posted by meese at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
"Doctor, you're going to die in the future!"
"Oh no! Woe is me! It cannot be changed! I shall die!"
[Doctor doesn't die]
"Doctor, you're going to die!"
"Oh, if only it could be changed, but it can't! Surely, this is my end!"
[Doctor doesn't die]
"Doctor, you're going to die!"
"There's no way out of this! None! I am to die, and I cannot escape this fate!"
[Doctor doesn't die]
I know all the timeywimey stuff is very complex, but I've picked up on something of a correlation, and you think the Doctor would, too.
posted by meese at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
It is starting to feel like they're leaning too hard on the trope about the Doctor dying. We have seen 10 and 11 reluctantly face their inevitable deaths, so it's not always a bluff. But if he was going to die again for real we'd already know it was coming and who was signed on to replace Capaldi.
Just to throw us all off, they should do an episode where the Doctor does die for real and doesn't regenerate, only to be resurrected later through time travel or whatever. If you had Clara grieving over his corpse and really drove home that the Doctor is dead-dead, that could be pretty powerful. Maybe Clara or UNIT or Missy or somebody could break some time rules to bring him back, and then that'd give him something else to angst about.
Or they could do something where he regenerates but it goes wrong for some reason, it wasn't time yet or the new incarnation is a botch job, and he has to fight to get his previous incarnation back. In an interview around the time when he was leaving the show, RTD said he had an idea where the 11th Doctor starts switching back and forth to the 10th, because, as 10 said, he did not want to go. That could have been great, but it also could have been sad note for 10 to go out on, as somebody else's unwanted alter ego.
If they really wanted to screw with our heads, they should not announce the Doctor is regenerating and just surprise the hell out of everybody sometime. Imagine some season finale where the Doctor suddenly dies and a new Doctor shows up, with no warning at all! You'd hear this amazing thump as geeks were fainting en masse all over the globe.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just to throw us all off, they should do an episode where the Doctor does die for real and doesn't regenerate, only to be resurrected later through time travel or whatever. If you had Clara grieving over his corpse and really drove home that the Doctor is dead-dead, that could be pretty powerful. Maybe Clara or UNIT or Missy or somebody could break some time rules to bring him back, and then that'd give him something else to angst about.
Or they could do something where he regenerates but it goes wrong for some reason, it wasn't time yet or the new incarnation is a botch job, and he has to fight to get his previous incarnation back. In an interview around the time when he was leaving the show, RTD said he had an idea where the 11th Doctor starts switching back and forth to the 10th, because, as 10 said, he did not want to go. That could have been great, but it also could have been sad note for 10 to go out on, as somebody else's unwanted alter ego.
If they really wanted to screw with our heads, they should not announce the Doctor is regenerating and just surprise the hell out of everybody sometime. Imagine some season finale where the Doctor suddenly dies and a new Doctor shows up, with no warning at all! You'd hear this amazing thump as geeks were fainting en masse all over the globe.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just to throw us all off, they should do an episode where the Doctor does die for real and doesn't regenerate, only to be resurrected later through time travel or whatever. If you had Clara grieving over his corpse and really drove home that the Doctor is dead-dead, that could be pretty powerful. Maybe Clara or UNIT or Missy or somebody could break some time rules to bring him back, and then that'd give him something else to angst about.
They've done this. Season 4, Turn Left.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 8:06 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
They've done this. Season 4, Turn Left.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 8:06 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Season 4, Turn Left.
I did think of that one, but I'm imagining something a little more elaborate. In that one we were seeing an alternate universe where the Doctor had died. The whole thing was clearly screwy, we knew this reality was wrong. I'm talking about an episode where we do the whole "the Doctor is going to die" thing and then he really dies. Then the rest of the story is about breaking the rules of time to undo his death, and of course he'd be upset because his death was a "fixed point" and all that stuff. It might make future "the Doctor is going to die" episodes carry a little more weight, if we saw him die for real once. Plus he'd have some fun angst about whether he experienced an afterlife, or didn't.
Or they could back off from "the Doctor is going to die" as a trope.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:03 PM on October 11, 2015
I did think of that one, but I'm imagining something a little more elaborate. In that one we were seeing an alternate universe where the Doctor had died. The whole thing was clearly screwy, we knew this reality was wrong. I'm talking about an episode where we do the whole "the Doctor is going to die" thing and then he really dies. Then the rest of the story is about breaking the rules of time to undo his death, and of course he'd be upset because his death was a "fixed point" and all that stuff. It might make future "the Doctor is going to die" episodes carry a little more weight, if we saw him die for real once. Plus he'd have some fun angst about whether he experienced an afterlife, or didn't.
Or they could back off from "the Doctor is going to die" as a trope.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:03 PM on October 11, 2015
Challenging story arc. The setup was slow and convoluted, the resolution relatively quick and easy. Cass turned out to be a strong character though -- I fully support having women who are not manic pixie spunky girls on the show. The doctor saving himself from death is kind of a tired theme in the show (although in this case it turned out to be a double feint), and the diversion into the Bootstrap Paradox seemed kind of unnecessary given that the doctor has never really worried about paradoxes before. The idea of people trapped in a spaceship/bus/undersea Habitrail with an enemy inside the gate is also kind of tired in the Whovian universe but hey, it did work in this case for building the suspense.
posted by miyabo at 9:14 PM on October 11, 2015
posted by miyabo at 9:14 PM on October 11, 2015
You're all missing the point of the second telling of the paradox. And the first one for that matter. Sure they frame the narrative & tell you what's going to happen & what just did happen. But more than that, together they tell a joke. The opening monologue is the setup & the last line of the episode is the punchline. Am I the only one who got it? I can't be. For me it was easily the best part of the episode, the way they dangled it in plain sight the whole time. That was nothing short of brilliant.
posted by scalefree at 1:22 AM on October 12, 2015
posted by scalefree at 1:22 AM on October 12, 2015
You know what they say about comedy, the secret is timing. And nobody knows timing like a Time Lord. To hold that punchline so long, that was just exquisite.
posted by scalefree at 1:28 AM on October 12, 2015
posted by scalefree at 1:28 AM on October 12, 2015
It might be worth a mention that, with Toby Whithouse's penchant for nicking things, the monologue on the bootstrap paradox at the beginning is a more TV-friendly take on Michael Moorcock's Behold the Man.
(I generally like Whithouse's stuff, though I'm one of those strange people who preferred the last two seasons of Being Human over all the others, especially the last one. He's certainly one of the few future possible Who-runners who I think has the chops to actually do it, though his fundamental particle of human relations seems to be a student household, in the same way that Steven Moffat's is a slightly fractious marriage. But he can be breathtakingly light-fingered.)
posted by Grangousier at 1:39 AM on October 12, 2015
(I generally like Whithouse's stuff, though I'm one of those strange people who preferred the last two seasons of Being Human over all the others, especially the last one. He's certainly one of the few future possible Who-runners who I think has the chops to actually do it, though his fundamental particle of human relations seems to be a student household, in the same way that Steven Moffat's is a slightly fractious marriage. But he can be breathtakingly light-fingered.)
posted by Grangousier at 1:39 AM on October 12, 2015
The paradox is also the concept behind Tim Powers' excellent novel The Anubis Gates.
posted by scalefree at 1:51 AM on October 12, 2015
posted by scalefree at 1:51 AM on October 12, 2015
Sure - what I meant was that the monologue basically is the plot of Behold the Man, with Beethoven subbed in for Jesus Christ.
(And hasn't it been a long-standing tradition to interpose familiar story templates - this one was a Base Under Siege, but the other most popular template is Alien Invasion, and there are loads of examples of each of those - with less familiar types of story - Blink, Listen, Ghost Light, Inferno, etc. The thing with the story templates is that the stories play out in familiar ways. A Base Under Siege might have an alien invasion in it, and an Alien Invasion way well have a base in it, it's the story trope that's the important thing.
Traditionally it's thought that Troughton is mostly Base Under Siege, Pertwee mostly Alien Invasion. I think the writers of the current series see it more as honouring a long-held tradition rather than paucity of imagination, though having a pre-existing story template probably makes the editorial process a bit smoother.)
posted by Grangousier at 1:54 AM on October 12, 2015
(And hasn't it been a long-standing tradition to interpose familiar story templates - this one was a Base Under Siege, but the other most popular template is Alien Invasion, and there are loads of examples of each of those - with less familiar types of story - Blink, Listen, Ghost Light, Inferno, etc. The thing with the story templates is that the stories play out in familiar ways. A Base Under Siege might have an alien invasion in it, and an Alien Invasion way well have a base in it, it's the story trope that's the important thing.
Traditionally it's thought that Troughton is mostly Base Under Siege, Pertwee mostly Alien Invasion. I think the writers of the current series see it more as honouring a long-held tradition rather than paucity of imagination, though having a pre-existing story template probably makes the editorial process a bit smoother.)
posted by Grangousier at 1:54 AM on October 12, 2015
Season 4, Turn Left.
I did think of that one, but I'm imagining something a little more elaborate.
The Death of the Doctor.
He had a funeral and all.
. It might make future "the Doctor is going to die" episodes carry a little more weight, if we saw him die for real once.
Except he's not dead, so where's the actual impact.
You also undo the whole 'fixed point of time' thing.
And then you end up with Pete Tyler.
posted by Mezentian at 2:50 AM on October 12, 2015
I did think of that one, but I'm imagining something a little more elaborate.
The Death of the Doctor.
He had a funeral and all.
. It might make future "the Doctor is going to die" episodes carry a little more weight, if we saw him die for real once.
Except he's not dead, so where's the actual impact.
You also undo the whole 'fixed point of time' thing.
And then you end up with Pete Tyler.
posted by Mezentian at 2:50 AM on October 12, 2015
I thought the point was Toby yanking Stephen's chain for ALWAYS using the bootstrap paradox (seriously, the Moff writes entertaining TV, but he rarely wraps up an episode of his own without one).
The two-parters have a nice classic feel, but a real classic serial would have had a whole other subsidiary plot with the inhabitants of the faux-Soviet base, getting them to safety at the right time, one of them being an actual Soviet agent, etc. You could get 6 half-hours out of that easy.
posted by rikschell at 4:21 AM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
The two-parters have a nice classic feel, but a real classic serial would have had a whole other subsidiary plot with the inhabitants of the faux-Soviet base, getting them to safety at the right time, one of them being an actual Soviet agent, etc. You could get 6 half-hours out of that easy.
posted by rikschell at 4:21 AM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Death of the Doctor.
He had a funeral and all.
I had to Google it. I haven't gotten around to watching The Sarah Jane Adventures yet.
Except he's not dead, so where's the actual impact.
You also undo the whole 'fixed point of time' thing. (...) And then you end up with Pete Tyler.
Well, he would be actually dead, and undoing it would cause a lot of complications. But it was just something off the top of my head, and not something really worth debating since it's highly unlikely Moffat is reading this thread for ideas.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:30 AM on October 12, 2015
He had a funeral and all.
I had to Google it. I haven't gotten around to watching The Sarah Jane Adventures yet.
Except he's not dead, so where's the actual impact.
You also undo the whole 'fixed point of time' thing. (...) And then you end up with Pete Tyler.
Well, he would be actually dead, and undoing it would cause a lot of complications. But it was just something off the top of my head, and not something really worth debating since it's highly unlikely Moffat is reading this thread for ideas.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:30 AM on October 12, 2015
The opening monologue is the setup & the last line of the episode is the punchline. Am I the only one who got it?
I don't get it. Can you explain it?
posted by meese at 4:38 AM on October 12, 2015
I don't get it. Can you explain it?
posted by meese at 4:38 AM on October 12, 2015
I had to Google it. I haven't gotten around to watching The Sarah Jane Adventures yet.
You should. I will defend it to the end of days, moreso than most Torchwood.
Well, he would be actually dead, and undoing it would cause a lot of complications.
But death is final, except for evil, and it works out badly for them.
It's constant.
But it was just something off the top of my head, and not something really worth debating since it's highly unlikely Moffat is reading this thread for ideas.
True. He has '90s usenet for that.
Plus, the man is busy.
posted by Mezentian at 4:48 AM on October 12, 2015
You should. I will defend it to the end of days, moreso than most Torchwood.
Well, he would be actually dead, and undoing it would cause a lot of complications.
But death is final, except for evil, and it works out badly for them.
It's constant.
But it was just something off the top of my head, and not something really worth debating since it's highly unlikely Moffat is reading this thread for ideas.
True. He has '90s usenet for that.
Plus, the man is busy.
posted by Mezentian at 4:48 AM on October 12, 2015
I don't get it. Can you explain it?
He's Beethoven. Look at him, look at the bust. Striking similarity, no? Plus all the records, the smirk at the end, etc. The whole damn thing was a setup for that joke.
posted by scalefree at 6:53 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
He's Beethoven. Look at him, look at the bust. Striking similarity, no? Plus all the records, the smirk at the end, etc. The whole damn thing was a setup for that joke.
posted by scalefree at 6:53 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
With the guitar and sunglasses, this Doctor is edgy, proactive, and has plenty of attitude... a totally outrageous paradigm. But can we rasta-fy him by 10% or so?
posted by speicus at 6:40 PM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by speicus at 6:40 PM on October 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I thought the Dalek story kinda flopped with the second part, but this was an improvement on an initial hour that was itself really pretty good. The change of venue added some variety, I think (although that was one hell of a thin attempt at taking us to Russia in 1980: "Look, a sign in Russian!"), and the open was perfect. Fantastically better than last year so far.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:23 PM on October 12, 2015
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:23 PM on October 12, 2015
that was one hell of a thin attempt at taking us to Russia in 1980
Didn't they say it was Scotland mocked up to look like Russia for military training?
If they really wanted to screw with our heads, they should not announce the Doctor is regenerating and just surprise the hell out of everybody sometime. Imagine some season finale where the Doctor suddenly dies and a new Doctor shows up, with no warning at all!
If there's one thing Steven Moffat's proven himself adept at as showrunner, it's keeping secrets from leaking to the press. So if anyone could pull it off, it'd be him. And if he did it, nothing would make me happier than if he did it midseason, in a story that seems low stakes and has no recurring villains. Just, hey, another runaround, you'll probably forget this story the second it's done airing, have you heard who they might bring back next week, I can't wait to see that WAIT WHAT WHAT'S HAPPENING
As for the episode itself, I was pleasantly surprised. I was thrown for a loop by the internet's ultra-positive response to last week's episode, because it just felt like a bog-standard, thoroughly average episode of Doctor Who to me. It wasn't bad, it just felt padded and samey, another Base Under Siege with a Hinchcliffian supernatural sci-fi angle and Clara and the Doctor being way too gleeful around people whose friends have just died. I've seen people comparing it to "The Empty Child," which just gobsmacked me, because the comparison I kept coming back to while watching it was "The Rebel Flesh," to the extent that halfway through the episode I muttered aloud, "Cliffhanger, the Doctor's a ghost."
So, yeah, I was really happy that "Before The Flood" turned out to be a good, solid episode that made the previous part seem better in retrospect. Loved the fourth wall breaker, loved the guitar theme (which was obviously a one-off since they didn't reprise it over the end credits -- a real shame, as the current theme is one of my least favorite takes on it), loved that we got out of the base and went all time-travelly, loved the mysterious plot threads left dangling to be grabbed later or perhaps just to linger in the viewer's mind (The Minister Of War, "where did the idea come from?", not erasing the letters from one man's mind, etc.), loved that the monster looked like Gwar by way of Terry Gilliam.
But what I really loved is that, for the second story in a row, the Doctor resolved things not with a last-minute flick of the sonic, but with a scheme he'd mapped out well in advance and didn't tell anyone about. The Doctor as Devious Trickster Manipulator has always been one of my favorite takes on the character, and we haven't really seen it deployed in the current series; he might come up with a plan once every couple of stories, but he hasn't been a strange, even sinister schemer in quite some time, and I've really missed it. I always thought of Matt Smith as Moffat's take on the Fifth Doctor, fresh-faced, full of wonder and yet very, very old, and Capaldi as his take on the Sixth Doctor, all loud and angry and abusive. This season, though, seems to have ditched the Colin Bakerisms and instead has him acting very Seventh Doctorish: the secret plotting even those closest to him aren't privy to, the six-steps-ahead-of-the-game vibe, the strong concern for his companion that doesn't stretch to the rest of humanity, the willingness to use others as pawns even if he suspects it'll get them killed, the sudden skill at sleight of hand tricks, even the low, dark voice I don't remember Capaldi affecting last season. All we need is for Capaldi to start pulling Jedi mind tricks on people and we're all set. It's a shame Moffat looted his short story "Continuity Errors" for so many parts over the course of his run on the show, since this would be the perfect point in time to give it a full adaptation.
posted by brianrobot at 2:02 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Didn't they say it was Scotland mocked up to look like Russia for military training?
If they really wanted to screw with our heads, they should not announce the Doctor is regenerating and just surprise the hell out of everybody sometime. Imagine some season finale where the Doctor suddenly dies and a new Doctor shows up, with no warning at all!
If there's one thing Steven Moffat's proven himself adept at as showrunner, it's keeping secrets from leaking to the press. So if anyone could pull it off, it'd be him. And if he did it, nothing would make me happier than if he did it midseason, in a story that seems low stakes and has no recurring villains. Just, hey, another runaround, you'll probably forget this story the second it's done airing, have you heard who they might bring back next week, I can't wait to see that WAIT WHAT WHAT'S HAPPENING
As for the episode itself, I was pleasantly surprised. I was thrown for a loop by the internet's ultra-positive response to last week's episode, because it just felt like a bog-standard, thoroughly average episode of Doctor Who to me. It wasn't bad, it just felt padded and samey, another Base Under Siege with a Hinchcliffian supernatural sci-fi angle and Clara and the Doctor being way too gleeful around people whose friends have just died. I've seen people comparing it to "The Empty Child," which just gobsmacked me, because the comparison I kept coming back to while watching it was "The Rebel Flesh," to the extent that halfway through the episode I muttered aloud, "Cliffhanger, the Doctor's a ghost."
So, yeah, I was really happy that "Before The Flood" turned out to be a good, solid episode that made the previous part seem better in retrospect. Loved the fourth wall breaker, loved the guitar theme (which was obviously a one-off since they didn't reprise it over the end credits -- a real shame, as the current theme is one of my least favorite takes on it), loved that we got out of the base and went all time-travelly, loved the mysterious plot threads left dangling to be grabbed later or perhaps just to linger in the viewer's mind (The Minister Of War, "where did the idea come from?", not erasing the letters from one man's mind, etc.), loved that the monster looked like Gwar by way of Terry Gilliam.
But what I really loved is that, for the second story in a row, the Doctor resolved things not with a last-minute flick of the sonic, but with a scheme he'd mapped out well in advance and didn't tell anyone about. The Doctor as Devious Trickster Manipulator has always been one of my favorite takes on the character, and we haven't really seen it deployed in the current series; he might come up with a plan once every couple of stories, but he hasn't been a strange, even sinister schemer in quite some time, and I've really missed it. I always thought of Matt Smith as Moffat's take on the Fifth Doctor, fresh-faced, full of wonder and yet very, very old, and Capaldi as his take on the Sixth Doctor, all loud and angry and abusive. This season, though, seems to have ditched the Colin Bakerisms and instead has him acting very Seventh Doctorish: the secret plotting even those closest to him aren't privy to, the six-steps-ahead-of-the-game vibe, the strong concern for his companion that doesn't stretch to the rest of humanity, the willingness to use others as pawns even if he suspects it'll get them killed, the sudden skill at sleight of hand tricks, even the low, dark voice I don't remember Capaldi affecting last season. All we need is for Capaldi to start pulling Jedi mind tricks on people and we're all set. It's a shame Moffat looted his short story "Continuity Errors" for so many parts over the course of his run on the show, since this would be the perfect point in time to give it a full adaptation.
posted by brianrobot at 2:02 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
because it just felt like a bog-standard, thoroughly average episode of Doctor Who to me. I
Pish.
There were some 1980s levels of running through corridors there.
posted by Mezentian at 2:53 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Pish.
There were some 1980s levels of running through corridors there.
posted by Mezentian at 2:53 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Here's something I wrote a few years ago elsewhere:
To me, ideally Doctor Who is a show which relies on time travel, but in general it is not a show about time travel -- the destination is what's usually important, not the means. This allows stuff to be hand waved away without causing too much concern, because the mechanisms aren't what the show's about. (My basic understanding of Doctor Who's time travel from the seasons I watched as a kid were: it's complicated, and while there are rules, only Time Lords understand them.) This worked better when the TARDIS was basically completely unreliable, so even if the Doctor wanted to go back and change something in the middle of a story, chances were that if he tried, he would miss by centuries or light years or both; once the TARDIS's navigation became reliable they had to come up with reasons why the Doctor couldn't just change things willy-nilly, which may have been necessary but was a bit of a shame nonetheless.
Episodes that do focus on time travel always make me nervous because there's only so much you can do with that and remain interesting, particularly since the more you mess around with it the more rules have to be invented and stuck to. I'd rather see 33 seasons of the Doctor exploring different planets and times than a bunch of shows about time paradoxes -- the latter seems like it would run out of steam pretty quick.
Which is to say that many of the episodes of the Stephen Moffat years have made me pretty nervous. Of course, Moffat is under no obligation to agree with me about what parts of Doctor Who are the best parts.
So that colored my reaction to the framing device, in which (to frame it negatively) the Doctor points out that one of the main elements of the plot resolution doesn't actually make any sense.
With all that said, I liked this two-parter a lot, and I hope there are more random adventures to come. (I also liked The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar; this one was more to my taste, though.)
posted by jwgh at 5:46 AM on October 13, 2015
To me, ideally Doctor Who is a show which relies on time travel, but in general it is not a show about time travel -- the destination is what's usually important, not the means. This allows stuff to be hand waved away without causing too much concern, because the mechanisms aren't what the show's about. (My basic understanding of Doctor Who's time travel from the seasons I watched as a kid were: it's complicated, and while there are rules, only Time Lords understand them.) This worked better when the TARDIS was basically completely unreliable, so even if the Doctor wanted to go back and change something in the middle of a story, chances were that if he tried, he would miss by centuries or light years or both; once the TARDIS's navigation became reliable they had to come up with reasons why the Doctor couldn't just change things willy-nilly, which may have been necessary but was a bit of a shame nonetheless.
Episodes that do focus on time travel always make me nervous because there's only so much you can do with that and remain interesting, particularly since the more you mess around with it the more rules have to be invented and stuck to. I'd rather see 33 seasons of the Doctor exploring different planets and times than a bunch of shows about time paradoxes -- the latter seems like it would run out of steam pretty quick.
Which is to say that many of the episodes of the Stephen Moffat years have made me pretty nervous. Of course, Moffat is under no obligation to agree with me about what parts of Doctor Who are the best parts.
So that colored my reaction to the framing device, in which (to frame it negatively) the Doctor points out that one of the main elements of the plot resolution doesn't actually make any sense.
With all that said, I liked this two-parter a lot, and I hope there are more random adventures to come. (I also liked The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar; this one was more to my taste, though.)
posted by jwgh at 5:46 AM on October 13, 2015
One of my favorite NuWho stories was "The Rebel Flesh", specifically because it took its time to let things breathe in a nice two parter. I don't think it is a coincidence that Season 7 is my least favorite since it was announced beforehand that each episode was supposed to be a single blockbuster. So this season is shaping up nicely - the opener had some annoyances but was otherwise good and this one was even better. I'm actually looking forward to Dr.Who again!
posted by charred husk at 7:35 AM on October 13, 2015
posted by charred husk at 7:35 AM on October 13, 2015
One of my favorite NuWho stories was "The Rebel Flesh", specifically because it took its time to let things breathe in a nice two parter.
Now, there's a phrase I never expected to read.
posted by Mezentian at 6:12 AM on October 15, 2015
Now, there's a phrase I never expected to read.
posted by Mezentian at 6:12 AM on October 15, 2015
They've been hitting the whole "must save Clara" thing pretty hard, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her die at the end of the season rather than just going back to her life teaching. And I remain annoyed about Danny's death, but I cringe at the thought of what Moffat would do if Clara died too, now that he's introduced bringing people back from the afterlife and/or preventing them going there in the first place.
posted by johnofjack at 6:08 PM on October 15, 2015
posted by johnofjack at 6:08 PM on October 15, 2015
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posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:29 PM on October 10, 2015