Doctor Who: The Zygon Invasion
October 31, 2015 3:24 PM - Season 9, Episode 7 - Subscribe
The Zygons, a race of shapeshifting aliens, have been living in secret amongst us on Earth, unknown and unseen - until now! When Osgood is kidnapped by a rogue gang of Zygons, the Doctor, Clara and Unit must scatter across the world in a bid to set her free. But will they reach her in time, and can they stop an uprising before it is too late?
Doctor Who does ISIS. Well I never.
posted by sobarel at 4:06 PM on October 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by sobarel at 4:06 PM on October 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, that sure was on-the-nose. But other than that, I could hardly believe this was written by the Kill the Moon guy -- leagues upon leagues better.
Couldn't help but notice that as with the opening two-parter pretty much every major role except for the Doctor himself and the Zygons were played by women, which is pretty sweet, especially for a war story.
As much as I love Jemma Redgrave in the role I feel as though Kate Stewart has been written very... inconsistently? Sloppily? this season. Is it just me? The nature of her role is such that she only shows up when she needs the Doctor's help, I get that, but she seems much less proactive this year than she did in The Power of Three, The Day of the Doctor, or last season's finale. Going to New Mexico without backup was blatant plot-mandated stupidity.
I did think Clara was also kind of ineffective and out of character then she turned out to be
a Zygon, but I doubt they're doing that twice. Bet Jenna Coleman had fun playing a bad guy.
Was initially skeptical about Osgood coming back, given Moffat's allergy to letting characters die, but they pulled it off well and really fleshed out her character from the fangirl parody she used to be. OTOH I had some hope for Jac as a recurring character (of color, cf last week's discussion) when I saw the previews last week and now she's dead, boo.
Was that "naval surgeon" a Harry Sullivan reference?
posted by bettafish at 4:47 PM on October 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Couldn't help but notice that as with the opening two-parter pretty much every major role except for the Doctor himself and the Zygons were played by women, which is pretty sweet, especially for a war story.
As much as I love Jemma Redgrave in the role I feel as though Kate Stewart has been written very... inconsistently? Sloppily? this season. Is it just me? The nature of her role is such that she only shows up when she needs the Doctor's help, I get that, but she seems much less proactive this year than she did in The Power of Three, The Day of the Doctor, or last season's finale. Going to New Mexico without backup was blatant plot-mandated stupidity.
I did think Clara was also kind of ineffective and out of character then she turned out to be
a Zygon, but I doubt they're doing that twice. Bet Jenna Coleman had fun playing a bad guy.
Was initially skeptical about Osgood coming back, given Moffat's allergy to letting characters die, but they pulled it off well and really fleshed out her character from the fangirl parody she used to be. OTOH I had some hope for Jac as a recurring character (of color, cf last week's discussion) when I saw the previews last week and now she's dead, boo.
Was that "naval surgeon" a Harry Sullivan reference?
posted by bettafish at 4:47 PM on October 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Yes, we know who you are."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:27 PM on October 31, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 6:27 PM on October 31, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yeah, again with actually enjoying this season. Looking forward to the next one.
posted by mordax at 8:21 PM on October 31, 2015
posted by mordax at 8:21 PM on October 31, 2015
Why can't they all just let Zygons be Zygons?
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:12 PM on October 31, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:12 PM on October 31, 2015 [26 favorites]
Here's some background on the peace treaty in this recap of "The Day of the Doctor": The great hero of the Doctor Who anniversary special is... John Rawls?
posted by homunculus at 1:01 AM on November 1, 2015
posted by homunculus at 1:01 AM on November 1, 2015
Was that "naval surgeon" a Harry Sullivan reference?
Yes, and that dropped my so far out of the episode, I got kick-punted into an episode of Plastic Surgery Nightmares.
Not only would Harry NOT develop a nerve gas based on what we have seen on screen for those few adventures, I am pretty sure Harry Sullivan's War, which I happen to have just here, states he develops antidotes to nerve toxins.
This was a pretty good throwback episode of the UNIT era ("in the '70s, '80s".... UNIT dating will never not be funny), especially the Silurians/Cavbe Monsters.
but I'm really not sure how to process its attempts at being topical regarding ISIS and the European immigration issue, and man, was Osgood's sexuality/gender/identity scene ham-fisted.
I think I liked it, overall, but man, there were so many clangers in there, you could hear the plot gears grinding.
"hybrids", for example.
"Try not to kill to many". I doubt even The War Doctor would say that.
Did not like "I snogged a Zygon once".
Yeah, that sure was on-the-nose. But other than that, I could hardly believe this was written by the Kill the Moon guy -- leagues upon leagues better.
Mischaracterisation and Courtney Woods aside, I liked Kill The Moon.
every major role except for the Doctor himself and the Zygons were played by women, which is pretty sweet,
Did you also notice, they were all incompetent? Which, admittedly, is pretty much in the UNIT job description (hello church cannon fodder), but they were. Benton and Yates wouldn't put up with that shit.
(Although, Yates would have fallen into the Zygon trap).
when I saw the previews last week and now she's dead, boo.
Damn. I was hoping she'd survive. I haven't found a preview online yet.
Maybe General Bambara will pop back?
Kate Stewart has been written very... inconsistently? Sloppily? this season.
Nope. Her character still seems in flux. All she is in... resigned? Weary?
posted by Mezentian at 1:12 AM on November 1, 2015
Yes, and that dropped my so far out of the episode, I got kick-punted into an episode of Plastic Surgery Nightmares.
Not only would Harry NOT develop a nerve gas based on what we have seen on screen for those few adventures, I am pretty sure Harry Sullivan's War, which I happen to have just here, states he develops antidotes to nerve toxins.
This was a pretty good throwback episode of the UNIT era ("in the '70s, '80s".... UNIT dating will never not be funny), especially the Silurians/Cavbe Monsters.
but I'm really not sure how to process its attempts at being topical regarding ISIS and the European immigration issue, and man, was Osgood's sexuality/gender/identity scene ham-fisted.
I think I liked it, overall, but man, there were so many clangers in there, you could hear the plot gears grinding.
"hybrids", for example.
"Try not to kill to many". I doubt even The War Doctor would say that.
Did not like "I snogged a Zygon once".
Yeah, that sure was on-the-nose. But other than that, I could hardly believe this was written by the Kill the Moon guy -- leagues upon leagues better.
Mischaracterisation and Courtney Woods aside, I liked Kill The Moon.
every major role except for the Doctor himself and the Zygons were played by women, which is pretty sweet,
Did you also notice, they were all incompetent? Which, admittedly, is pretty much in the UNIT job description (hello church cannon fodder), but they were. Benton and Yates wouldn't put up with that shit.
(Although, Yates would have fallen into the Zygon trap).
when I saw the previews last week and now she's dead, boo.
Damn. I was hoping she'd survive. I haven't found a preview online yet.
Maybe General Bambara will pop back?
Kate Stewart has been written very... inconsistently? Sloppily? this season.
Nope. Her character still seems in flux. All she is in... resigned? Weary?
posted by Mezentian at 1:12 AM on November 1, 2015
Also, as someone who, for years, wanted to see the Zygons come back, and loves the original design so much more than the update:
Man, am I getting pretty damn sick of power creep.
posted by Mezentian at 1:19 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man, am I getting pretty damn sick of power creep.
posted by Mezentian at 1:19 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
With my Captain Unpopular Analysis hat on, I really feel like the obsessive, ha-ha-she's-asthmatic, question-mark-addicted Osgood is an unkind parody of OldWho fans in the NuWho world - witness the Doctor's sneering 'question-mark underpants' smackdown, her desperate desire to be thought of as 'alien' and special. Who is a major cash cow for the BBC now, but it still holds pre-2005 Whovians in faintly embarrassed contempt.
And Murray Gold still thinks we're all idiots who can't be trusted to interpret dramatic cues without REALLY LOUD emotional manipulation.
Also, Doctor Disco? Come ON.
posted by prismatic7 at 2:28 AM on November 1, 2015
And Murray Gold still thinks we're all idiots who can't be trusted to interpret dramatic cues without REALLY LOUD emotional manipulation.
Also, Doctor Disco? Come ON.
posted by prismatic7 at 2:28 AM on November 1, 2015
witness the Doctor's sneering 'question-mark underpants' smackdown,
I did not think that was a smackdown.
posted by Mezentian at 3:08 AM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
I did not think that was a smackdown.
posted by Mezentian at 3:08 AM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
"...but I'm really not sure how to process its attempts at being topical regarding ISIS and the European immigration issue..."
I don't know what to think given that their main ambition -- to be themselves and not be in the closet -- is portrayed in this narrative as equivalent to the desire to take over everything and be willing to kill to do it. As opposed to the nice assimilationists whose whole existence is to blend in and not make the majority population uncomfortable. Why can't everyone be sensible like those good ones?
That bothered me and I felt that the pacing was off and it mostly dragged.
But I have to admit that partly I was annoyed at the TorC stuff. At first I was amused that there are apparently palm trees there and it looks vaguely North African. But then I noticed that someone in the costuming department doesn't know the difference between Mexico and New Mexico and so they placed a big Mexico flag on the sheriff deputy's shirt.
Note: I used to spend a fair amount of time when I was a child in TorC (no one in NM actually pronunces the whole name) because there used to be a children's orthopedic hospital there. Someone posted an AskMe a year ago asking about recommendations for spending a day in TorC. The story of the name is that it used to be Hot Springs, but back in 1950 there was a big national radio game show called "Truth or Consequences" and as a promotion it offered any town in the US various benefits if it changed the name to the show's. Hot Springs did and it worked out well for them.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:23 AM on November 1, 2015
I don't know what to think given that their main ambition -- to be themselves and not be in the closet -- is portrayed in this narrative as equivalent to the desire to take over everything and be willing to kill to do it. As opposed to the nice assimilationists whose whole existence is to blend in and not make the majority population uncomfortable. Why can't everyone be sensible like those good ones?
That bothered me and I felt that the pacing was off and it mostly dragged.
But I have to admit that partly I was annoyed at the TorC stuff. At first I was amused that there are apparently palm trees there and it looks vaguely North African. But then I noticed that someone in the costuming department doesn't know the difference between Mexico and New Mexico and so they placed a big Mexico flag on the sheriff deputy's shirt.
Note: I used to spend a fair amount of time when I was a child in TorC (no one in NM actually pronunces the whole name) because there used to be a children's orthopedic hospital there. Someone posted an AskMe a year ago asking about recommendations for spending a day in TorC. The story of the name is that it used to be Hot Springs, but back in 1950 there was a big national radio game show called "Truth or Consequences" and as a promotion it offered any town in the US various benefits if it changed the name to the show's. Hot Springs did and it worked out well for them.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:23 AM on November 1, 2015
Mexico and New Mexico and so they placed a big Mexico flag on the sheriff deputy's shirt.
Even I noticed that.
And it is such a massive error, I suspect it is a plot point.
posted by Mezentian at 5:08 AM on November 1, 2015
Even I noticed that.
And it is such a massive error, I suspect it is a plot point.
posted by Mezentian at 5:08 AM on November 1, 2015
Kind of sloppy writing overall, though I'd agree that it's a million times better than Kill the Moon. I'd also agree that sending Kate off by herself was stupid (Kate herself wouldn't have done it; any head of any military organization would have brought backup). I also was puzzled that the Doctor chose to fly rather than take the Tardis. Maybe the Tardis is on the plane and that's how he'll save himself (which would mean that he probably suspected that Clara and/or Kate were Zygons).
"hybrids", for example.
This is the third story this season of the four that have aired where the Doctor mentions creating a hybrid creature.
In addition to the "Doctor Disco" bit he also called himself "Dr. Funkenstein," which both marks him as a George Clinton fan and points to the idea of the Doctor as a mad scientist. I guess that's better than thinking of him as some gormless time-hopping Mendel (though if we're sticking with Doctors, given that he's hybridized both Daleks and Zygons he reminds me more of Dr. Moreau: "hm, let's see ... how about if we crossed Sontarans with hippos? Yes, I like that; and I think next up we'll have Cybermen crossed with howler monkeys.")
At any rate, I wonder where the screenwriters are going with all that.
On an unrelated (?) note, this marks the second time in the last four seasons that a companion turned out to be an antagonist shapeshifter.
posted by johnofjack at 5:50 AM on November 1, 2015
"hybrids", for example.
This is the third story this season of the four that have aired where the Doctor mentions creating a hybrid creature.
In addition to the "Doctor Disco" bit he also called himself "Dr. Funkenstein," which both marks him as a George Clinton fan and points to the idea of the Doctor as a mad scientist. I guess that's better than thinking of him as some gormless time-hopping Mendel (though if we're sticking with Doctors, given that he's hybridized both Daleks and Zygons he reminds me more of Dr. Moreau: "hm, let's see ... how about if we crossed Sontarans with hippos? Yes, I like that; and I think next up we'll have Cybermen crossed with howler monkeys.")
At any rate, I wonder where the screenwriters are going with all that.
On an unrelated (?) note, this marks the second time in the last four seasons that a companion turned out to be an antagonist shapeshifter.
posted by johnofjack at 5:50 AM on November 1, 2015
I'd also agree that sending Kate off by herself was stupid (Kate herself wouldn't have done it; any head of any military organization would have brought backup).
Since we didn't actually see the Zygon zap Kate (it's implied, but not shown), I'm assuming that she, in fact, did have some sort of unseen backup, and the Zygon was dealt with. She then communicates with the other Zygons in a manner so as to not alert them.
I'm also assuming the Mexican flag thing is a plot point. It may have been the thing that twigged Kate to the deputy not being human. At least I hope it's a plot point. Otherwise...holy crap what a huge oversight.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:07 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Since we didn't actually see the Zygon zap Kate (it's implied, but not shown), I'm assuming that she, in fact, did have some sort of unseen backup, and the Zygon was dealt with. She then communicates with the other Zygons in a manner so as to not alert them.
I'm also assuming the Mexican flag thing is a plot point. It may have been the thing that twigged Kate to the deputy not being human. At least I hope it's a plot point. Otherwise...holy crap what a huge oversight.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:07 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Didn't really enjoy this one, it felt both all over the place and heavy-handed. I suppose you can't have an episode with shape shifters without a "she's actually one of them!" but it just seemed lame this time around.
The io9 recap actually made the plot seem more coherent than the actual episode felt.
"Snogged a Zygon", " Try not to kill too many" both rankled me as well. Just didn't sit right.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:15 AM on November 1, 2015
The io9 recap actually made the plot seem more coherent than the actual episode felt.
"Snogged a Zygon", " Try not to kill too many" both rankled me as well. Just didn't sit right.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:15 AM on November 1, 2015
I missed the "snogged" line, but I took the "Try not to kill..." line as cynical slam at UNIT's militaristic tendencies. I thought it sounded appropriate for the Doctor.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:37 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:37 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm also assuming the Mexican flag thing is a plot point.
Heh. I'm not. Some quality international-on-a-budget there.
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Heh. I'm not. Some quality international-on-a-budget there.
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oof, what a disaster that episode was. That was nearly a Wiseau-level of ineptness.
But I sort of enjoyed it for that same reason.
posted by painquale at 9:08 AM on November 1, 2015
But I sort of enjoyed it for that same reason.
posted by painquale at 9:08 AM on November 1, 2015
All I know is that the second I saw Osgood I screamed "MOFFATTTTT!!!" at the screen while shaking my fist.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:11 AM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:11 AM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
The interesting thing for me with Clara was that her bossy and heartless behavior was so par for her development that it really wasn't obvious she was evil until that moment. It was a bit rushed in spots but I felt like it was pretty solid ridiculous 70s work. Loved the shout-out to the underpants (didn't see it as a slam at all) and while I missed the naval surgeon callback, always love to see a mention of Harry.
I agree with those who think Kate got her Zygon. She may be resigned and overwhelmed, but she's still the Brig's kid.
Was I the only one who had heart-eyes at the Doctor playing the guitar? Playing one of the four tunes that comes pre-programmed into your bagpipes on the guitar? I know the kids all think he's trying too hard to be hip, but as a fellow middle-ager/old, I love what he's doing with his DNGAF oldsterness.
posted by immlass at 9:23 AM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I agree with those who think Kate got her Zygon. She may be resigned and overwhelmed, but she's still the Brig's kid.
Was I the only one who had heart-eyes at the Doctor playing the guitar? Playing one of the four tunes that comes pre-programmed into your bagpipes on the guitar? I know the kids all think he's trying too hard to be hip, but as a fellow middle-ager/old, I love what he's doing with his DNGAF oldsterness.
posted by immlass at 9:23 AM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I admit I cringed for a moment when he sonic-sunglassed Osgood's shackles. Really awkward tool.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:42 AM on November 1, 2015
posted by Thorzdad at 9:42 AM on November 1, 2015
I feel like we are slowly getting the KLF doctor. I will cheer when he gets the car.
posted by Artw at 9:43 AM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:43 AM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah I sort of expected him to sonic out her location rather than stomp it out, but I admit I liked the stomping. This Doctor is a stomping sort.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2015
posted by BungaDunga at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2015
So maybezygonornot Kate calls zygonclara to say UNIT N. America is taken case of, then zygonclara calls someone else to report UNIT Europe had been taken care of, without mentioning the message from Kate. What kind of chain of command are these notpeople running?
I used to spend a fair amount of time when I was a child in TorC
Now everyone you ever met there has been turned into a lump of electric body hair.
posted by biffa at 10:22 AM on November 1, 2015
I used to spend a fair amount of time when I was a child in TorC
Now everyone you ever met there has been turned into a lump of electric body hair.
posted by biffa at 10:22 AM on November 1, 2015
15 tweets that perfectly sum up the internet's reaction to last night's Doctor Who
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:58 AM on November 1, 2015
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:58 AM on November 1, 2015
I'm sure there was stuff that made no sense even past the beer I'd drunk... but it rattled along at a good pace and I liked it's global scope.
Man I would love a hard-core UNIT spin-off - basically Ultimate Force meets Aliens meets Delta Green (I'm totally filing the numbers off and writing this btw)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:01 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man I would love a hard-core UNIT spin-off - basically Ultimate Force meets Aliens meets Delta Green (I'm totally filing the numbers off and writing this btw)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:01 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
So remember this gibberish ending from a coupla seasons back? We're going to go ahead and seize on a loose end in a part you didn't care about and then expand on it in a way we can't be bothered to explain in detail. The plus side is, you get an oddly paced episode about a treaty gone wrong that has political undertones that are uncomfortably out of place on this show.
DOESN'T THAT SOUND GREAT YOU GUYS?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:08 AM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
DOESN'T THAT SOUND GREAT YOU GUYS?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:08 AM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also a key plot point is 20 million new human assimilated without making waves or anyone taking notice. But NBD.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:09 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:09 AM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man I would love a hard-core UNIT spin-off - basically Ultimate Force meets Aliens meets Delta Green (I'm totally filing the numbers off and writing this btw)
"My XCOM Campaign, The FanFic"
posted by Artw at 11:14 AM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
"My XCOM Campaign, The FanFic"
posted by Artw at 11:14 AM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
(Would totally write this)
posted by Artw at 11:25 AM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:25 AM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
pretty solid ridiculous
That's pretty much the ideal Who for me. If the plot or character actions don't make sense just keep running.
The "snogged a Zygon" bit is referring to Ten and Elizabeth in Day of the Doctor, isn't it?
posted by plastic_animals at 2:18 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's pretty much the ideal Who for me. If the plot or character actions don't make sense just keep running.
The "snogged a Zygon" bit is referring to Ten and Elizabeth in Day of the Doctor, isn't it?
posted by plastic_animals at 2:18 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've been enjoying this series, but that's the first episode I've rewatched.
I've got a sneaking suspicion that the number of women characters/actors is going to turn out to be necessitated by a plot point. E.g. all the Radical Zygons are Gender Separatists and only take female form because Moffat. What was that line like "We want to be seen for who we are"? That plot possibility sounds clunky, terrible and liable to offend, but pretty much on a par with how the ISIS stuff played at times.
The 3 clawed hand symbol could also represent a meteor, so I'm expecting some kind of doom to rain from the skies, FF7 style as part of their dastardly plan.
I'm thinking the series arc is going to be Clara-hybrid meltdown, functioning as The Moff's take on a DoctorDonna. The BBC's Who subsite even calls out the fact that Clara is dressed like the Doctor in this one as she becomes more Doctor-like which has been a bit of a theme for her character.
I really liked the scene with the mother/soldier son standoff. Had to pinch myself to remember this was Doctor Who.
I also like the Osgood character a lot, especially her steadfastness re: human/zygon status. Can't help thinking she's more merchandise shifter than the Doctor-sans-screwdriver is at this point though. Good to have a bridge to OldWho anyway.
That reminds me, I like how this series has been treating newer Who differently regarding nods and winks. It feels less beholden and more acknowledging that Nine and Ten are OldWho to fans who've grown up with the new series.
tl;Dr - I liked it
posted by comealongpole at 3:17 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've got a sneaking suspicion that the number of women characters/actors is going to turn out to be necessitated by a plot point. E.g. all the Radical Zygons are Gender Separatists and only take female form because Moffat. What was that line like "We want to be seen for who we are"? That plot possibility sounds clunky, terrible and liable to offend, but pretty much on a par with how the ISIS stuff played at times.
The 3 clawed hand symbol could also represent a meteor, so I'm expecting some kind of doom to rain from the skies, FF7 style as part of their dastardly plan.
I'm thinking the series arc is going to be Clara-hybrid meltdown, functioning as The Moff's take on a DoctorDonna. The BBC's Who subsite even calls out the fact that Clara is dressed like the Doctor in this one as she becomes more Doctor-like which has been a bit of a theme for her character.
I really liked the scene with the mother/soldier son standoff. Had to pinch myself to remember this was Doctor Who.
I also like the Osgood character a lot, especially her steadfastness re: human/zygon status. Can't help thinking she's more merchandise shifter than the Doctor-sans-screwdriver is at this point though. Good to have a bridge to OldWho anyway.
That reminds me, I like how this series has been treating newer Who differently regarding nods and winks. It feels less beholden and more acknowledging that Nine and Ten are OldWho to fans who've grown up with the new series.
tl;Dr - I liked it
posted by comealongpole at 3:17 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, I'm another voting costume-fail flag rather than shenanigans fwiw.
posted by comealongpole at 3:22 PM on November 1, 2015
posted by comealongpole at 3:22 PM on November 1, 2015
Also, as someone who, for years, wanted to see the Zygons come back, and loves the original design so much more than the update
They don't look like they've changed that much to me. They're a bit more crinkly now.
I don't know what to think given that their main ambition -- to be themselves and not be in the closet -- is portrayed in this narrative as equivalent to the desire to take over everything and be willing to kill to do it.
I think the "in the closet" symbolism was quite intentional and I am almost certain that before the story is done the Doctor will be saying that these Zygon have the right to live openly. I don't know what they'll do with that though. It's hard to imagine the show will have big blobby Zygons openly living among humans but it would be some really bad symbolism if they say that all the Zygons who want to live openly can just go live on some other planet.
I'm surprised everybody is jumping on the ISIS symbolism but the immigration symbolism is getting a lot less attention. To me the immigration aspect seemed at least as prominent as the ISIS stuff.
This is the third story this season of the four that have aired where the Doctor mentions creating a hybrid creature.
I'm guessing that when Clara leaves the show she won't be entirely human anymore. Either she becomes part Zygon or part Time Lord (as a culmination to this thing about her becoming like the Doctor) or she becomes a Dalek again, or somehow she becomes a hybrid. (Either that or she goes off to spend eternity with Danny Pink, wherever he ended up.)
The standoff with the soldier's mom was certainly dramatic, but DAMN, that soldier was a dummy. OK, so his not-mom couldn't remember the name of his teddy bear... but she couldn't give the date of his birth? That ain't your mom, boy!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:57 PM on November 1, 2015
They don't look like they've changed that much to me. They're a bit more crinkly now.
I don't know what to think given that their main ambition -- to be themselves and not be in the closet -- is portrayed in this narrative as equivalent to the desire to take over everything and be willing to kill to do it.
I think the "in the closet" symbolism was quite intentional and I am almost certain that before the story is done the Doctor will be saying that these Zygon have the right to live openly. I don't know what they'll do with that though. It's hard to imagine the show will have big blobby Zygons openly living among humans but it would be some really bad symbolism if they say that all the Zygons who want to live openly can just go live on some other planet.
I'm surprised everybody is jumping on the ISIS symbolism but the immigration symbolism is getting a lot less attention. To me the immigration aspect seemed at least as prominent as the ISIS stuff.
This is the third story this season of the four that have aired where the Doctor mentions creating a hybrid creature.
I'm guessing that when Clara leaves the show she won't be entirely human anymore. Either she becomes part Zygon or part Time Lord (as a culmination to this thing about her becoming like the Doctor) or she becomes a Dalek again, or somehow she becomes a hybrid. (Either that or she goes off to spend eternity with Danny Pink, wherever he ended up.)
The standoff with the soldier's mom was certainly dramatic, but DAMN, that soldier was a dummy. OK, so his not-mom couldn't remember the name of his teddy bear... but she couldn't give the date of his birth? That ain't your mom, boy!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:57 PM on November 1, 2015
I know the kids all think he's trying too hard to be hip, but as a fellow middle-ager/old, I love what he's doing with his DNGAF oldsterness.
My dad is British and plays serious rock guitar like nobody's business. For me at least, it's far more like Capaldi is trying to be my dad, rather than hip for the youngsters.
posted by meese at 5:23 PM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
My dad is British and plays serious rock guitar like nobody's business. For me at least, it's far more like Capaldi is trying to be my dad, rather than hip for the youngsters.
posted by meese at 5:23 PM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
The "snogged a Zygon" bit is referring to Ten and Elizabeth in Day of the Doctor, isn't it?
Yes. I'm surprised people didn't remember this.
posted by crossoverman at 6:35 PM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yes. I'm surprised people didn't remember this.
posted by crossoverman at 6:35 PM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
This was great... for an episode of 24. For Doctor Who, it was truly awful. Totally lost it with the xenophobic and veiled anti-Muslim propaganda.
posted by miyabo at 6:39 PM on November 1, 2015
posted by miyabo at 6:39 PM on November 1, 2015
You do realize that your sympathies are supposed to lie at least partly with the, 'radicalized,' Zygons. The youth who find themselves in a situation they had no say in and in which the errors of youth led to villagers with pitchforks hunting them as monsters rather than living with aware people capable of dealing with differences. The message is more one of looking at the consequences of a tangle of lies established by one generation and inherited by the next.
When they find themselves in intolerable conditions (a highly subjective judgement, but in this case a sympathetic one) rebellion, indeed revolution is the only choice. Dismissed by the oppressors they choose the only clear course to freedom, the establishment of a homeland. If humans must die what is that when there are more than seven billion of them and only twenty million Zygons. Humanity as a whole is in no danger, until they come for the Zygons. Then everybody gets turned into sparking steel-wool pads.
It is a fairly standard plot about the othering of a people and the consequences of denying them their truth.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 8:02 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
When they find themselves in intolerable conditions (a highly subjective judgement, but in this case a sympathetic one) rebellion, indeed revolution is the only choice. Dismissed by the oppressors they choose the only clear course to freedom, the establishment of a homeland. If humans must die what is that when there are more than seven billion of them and only twenty million Zygons. Humanity as a whole is in no danger, until they come for the Zygons. Then everybody gets turned into sparking steel-wool pads.
It is a fairly standard plot about the othering of a people and the consequences of denying them their truth.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 8:02 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did they really have to include terrorists taking hostages, and desert training camps, and drone warfare though? "They live among us" and are ready to turn evil at a moment's notice? A lot of 12 year old viewers are going to walk away confusing Zygons, Muslims, and ISIS. I love for Doctor Who to include real-world elements but that's just way too close to home for a show that is fundamentally about escapism and absurdity.
posted by miyabo at 8:57 PM on November 1, 2015
posted by miyabo at 8:57 PM on November 1, 2015
a show that is fundamentally about escapism and absurdity
Doctor Who had a Nazi allegory in its second serial in 1963. (The Daleks are absolutely about Naziism.) There's a long history of allegorical portrayals of current and historical political events in Who. This may not be an element you like in your Who, but it isn't a new thing in the show. Who is about a lot of things. Politics is one of them.
posted by immlass at 9:03 PM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
Doctor Who had a Nazi allegory in its second serial in 1963. (The Daleks are absolutely about Naziism.) There's a long history of allegorical portrayals of current and historical political events in Who. This may not be an element you like in your Who, but it isn't a new thing in the show. Who is about a lot of things. Politics is one of them.
posted by immlass at 9:03 PM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
"It is a fairly standard plot about the othering of a people and the consequences of denying them their truth."
If by that you mean that they will all become terrorists and murderers when they stop listening to the assimilationists, then yeah. Even if the subtext is that the majority pushed them to that extreme, the bottom line is that they're evil terrorists who cackle menacingly and want to kill the entire human race. We're not seeing anyone on the anti-assimilationist side who aren't terrorists. And the good guys are unambiguously the assimilationists. So the result is that anyone who is angry about how the majority has asked them to be invisible is the enemy and can't be trusted because they're murderous terrorists.
Maybe the intention was good and aimed to make the point you're making, but the result is just to other people even further. I do agree that the Doctor has been signaling some sympathy to the radicals and will likely argue in their favor in the next episode, but, wow, is this episode really all about the majority's paranoia of the others among them ... and it validates that paranoia.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:03 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
If by that you mean that they will all become terrorists and murderers when they stop listening to the assimilationists, then yeah. Even if the subtext is that the majority pushed them to that extreme, the bottom line is that they're evil terrorists who cackle menacingly and want to kill the entire human race. We're not seeing anyone on the anti-assimilationist side who aren't terrorists. And the good guys are unambiguously the assimilationists. So the result is that anyone who is angry about how the majority has asked them to be invisible is the enemy and can't be trusted because they're murderous terrorists.
Maybe the intention was good and aimed to make the point you're making, but the result is just to other people even further. I do agree that the Doctor has been signaling some sympathy to the radicals and will likely argue in their favor in the next episode, but, wow, is this episode really all about the majority's paranoia of the others among them ... and it validates that paranoia.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:03 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
and it validates that paranoia.
I'd say, let's wait until part two before we make the call. It could well be that the revolutionary Zygons are ultimately the good guys, or at least that they are no more right or wrong than the other guys. The episode took great pains to say that no race is all good or all evil, and I think we were supposed to really pay attention there. (Although with the Daleks, for example, we seem to come pretty close to a race that's pure evil. Also, the Weeping Angels. And the Silence. Actually, there seem to be a fair number of aliens on Doctor Who who are just plain nasty.) I think that's setting up the idea that these are all individuals in this conflict, and at some point we'll see some of the assimilationists being evil and the revolutionaries will reveal themselves as good. This episode was quite possibly making the rebels seem totally evil the way many people see ISIS (and immigrants) as a sinister, mindless force... and then (hopefully) that will all turn out to be wrong, next time.
I still have no idea how they can resolve this story without having all of the rebel Zygons give in to assimilation, leave the planet, go live on their own island somewhere or get killed, possibilities that would all send really ghastly messages about what should be done for people who are fighting to come out and show their true selves. I'm really hoping Moffat has thought this one through and it has a better ending than any I can come up with.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:13 AM on November 2, 2015
I'd say, let's wait until part two before we make the call. It could well be that the revolutionary Zygons are ultimately the good guys, or at least that they are no more right or wrong than the other guys. The episode took great pains to say that no race is all good or all evil, and I think we were supposed to really pay attention there. (Although with the Daleks, for example, we seem to come pretty close to a race that's pure evil. Also, the Weeping Angels. And the Silence. Actually, there seem to be a fair number of aliens on Doctor Who who are just plain nasty.) I think that's setting up the idea that these are all individuals in this conflict, and at some point we'll see some of the assimilationists being evil and the revolutionaries will reveal themselves as good. This episode was quite possibly making the rebels seem totally evil the way many people see ISIS (and immigrants) as a sinister, mindless force... and then (hopefully) that will all turn out to be wrong, next time.
I still have no idea how they can resolve this story without having all of the rebel Zygons give in to assimilation, leave the planet, go live on their own island somewhere or get killed, possibilities that would all send really ghastly messages about what should be done for people who are fighting to come out and show their true selves. I'm really hoping Moffat has thought this one through and it has a better ending than any I can come up with.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:13 AM on November 2, 2015
The standoff with the soldier's mom was certainly dramatic, but DAMN, that soldier was a dummy. OK, so his not-mom couldn't remember the name of his teddy bear... but she couldn't give the date of his birth? That ain't your mom, boy!
Given that the Zygons can now read your mind to duplicate your loved ones, I've assumed they can also operate some sort of psychic hypnotism to help convince their victims. Otherwise you wouldn't convince a bunch of soldiers who have been specifically trained to know that the Zygons will copy their families.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:12 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Given that the Zygons can now read your mind to duplicate your loved ones, I've assumed they can also operate some sort of psychic hypnotism to help convince their victims. Otherwise you wouldn't convince a bunch of soldiers who have been specifically trained to know that the Zygons will copy their families.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:12 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
And the good guys are unambiguously the assimilationists.
I read the church scene differently to most of the people here, I think. The commander in the church scenario (not the field leader who went into the church) was clearly a "bad guy" because instead of wanting to find out what's wrong and deal with the grievances of the Zygons, she wanted to just exterminate the Zygons. This is of a piece with the Doctor's long-running tension with UNIT, where he used to bitch all the time at the Brig about their tendency to shoot first and think second. Here, the shoot-first attitude got the troops killed, which is then reinforced further on where shooting first in the Zygon lair where the humans were in stasis would have killed the real Clara.
So the Zygon "good guys" may be assimilationist, but it's not like the show is painting the humans as great or the Zygon fears as unreasonable. I'm going to wait until I see the second half of the cliffhanger before I come to any firm conclusions about the politics here though I have some guesses based on how heavily Moffat has mined the politics of the Three years in previous episodes like the Silurian story with Eleven, which featured similar themes in a less directly allegorical vein.
posted by immlass at 8:14 AM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I read the church scene differently to most of the people here, I think. The commander in the church scenario (not the field leader who went into the church) was clearly a "bad guy" because instead of wanting to find out what's wrong and deal with the grievances of the Zygons, she wanted to just exterminate the Zygons. This is of a piece with the Doctor's long-running tension with UNIT, where he used to bitch all the time at the Brig about their tendency to shoot first and think second. Here, the shoot-first attitude got the troops killed, which is then reinforced further on where shooting first in the Zygon lair where the humans were in stasis would have killed the real Clara.
So the Zygon "good guys" may be assimilationist, but it's not like the show is painting the humans as great or the Zygon fears as unreasonable. I'm going to wait until I see the second half of the cliffhanger before I come to any firm conclusions about the politics here though I have some guesses based on how heavily Moffat has mined the politics of the Three years in previous episodes like the Silurian story with Eleven, which featured similar themes in a less directly allegorical vein.
posted by immlass at 8:14 AM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
The commander in the church scenario (not the field leader who went into the church) was clearly a "bad guy" because instead of wanting to find out what's wrong and deal with the grievances of the Zygons, she wanted to just exterminate the Zygons.
I think this is right, but the scene gets really confused because she spends most of her time trying to keep her soldier alive. So, I think we're supposed to see her as much a problem as the Zygons, but what we mostly see her do is say, "Wait! No, they're trying to kill you! Don't let them kill you!" And that makes focusing on her "...so kill them instead!" a bit hard.
posted by meese at 9:20 AM on November 2, 2015
I think this is right, but the scene gets really confused because she spends most of her time trying to keep her soldier alive. So, I think we're supposed to see her as much a problem as the Zygons, but what we mostly see her do is say, "Wait! No, they're trying to kill you! Don't let them kill you!" And that makes focusing on her "...so kill them instead!" a bit hard.
posted by meese at 9:20 AM on November 2, 2015
I think this is right, but the scene gets really confused because she spends most of her time trying to keep her soldier alive.
Agreed, but we get it reinforced when she gives the Doctor 10 minutes to get Osgood out, and then bombs the building with them in it before the deadline is up (which they survive because they're in the basement). Also, I read the "shoot your mother" as an unreasonable demand, because even though they're clearly Zygons, shooting your mom is pretty hard.
posted by immlass at 9:27 AM on November 2, 2015
Agreed, but we get it reinforced when she gives the Doctor 10 minutes to get Osgood out, and then bombs the building with them in it before the deadline is up (which they survive because they're in the basement). Also, I read the "shoot your mother" as an unreasonable demand, because even though they're clearly Zygons, shooting your mom is pretty hard.
posted by immlass at 9:27 AM on November 2, 2015
Yeah. I read this episode as meant to get to: "This is a very complex situation, and a whole lot of people are acting badly, and sure we can understand everyone's motivations, but we're still left with a terribly explosive situation in which too many people are, in fact, exploding."
By the end of the episode, what I felt like I really wanted was a scene where all the principles are together in a room, and the Doctor gets to do his whole, "Waitaminute waitaminute waitaminute! Just listen!" schtick, and point out how ridiculous everyone is and how we just need to be reasonable and compassionate. That's the scene where something complicated and painful and confusing gets clarified and set straight. But we didn't get that. Everything was just left as complicated and painful and confusing, and the whole episode felt like the Doctor was constantly a step behind rather than a step ahead.
So, we'll see what happens next episode.
posted by meese at 9:56 AM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
By the end of the episode, what I felt like I really wanted was a scene where all the principles are together in a room, and the Doctor gets to do his whole, "Waitaminute waitaminute waitaminute! Just listen!" schtick, and point out how ridiculous everyone is and how we just need to be reasonable and compassionate. That's the scene where something complicated and painful and confusing gets clarified and set straight. But we didn't get that. Everything was just left as complicated and painful and confusing, and the whole episode felt like the Doctor was constantly a step behind rather than a step ahead.
So, we'll see what happens next episode.
posted by meese at 9:56 AM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I also wonder if the framing is hiding some kind of reset. I hope not, resets are dreadfully overused.
posted by Artw at 11:08 AM on November 2, 2015
posted by Artw at 11:08 AM on November 2, 2015
I really liked this episode. I'm almost certain that the Zygons have been incited into their current actions, probably by the actions of unit. There was some weird plotting, and the church scene was just super odd (like, there are more options than kill/drop your weapons and be killed guys!), but all in all a tense episode with interesting political undertones.
Incidentally, I presume that the Doctor's death is still a thing he's waiting for, right? I mean, he's still playing that guitar at the start of every episode, and that confession dial never got opened...
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:48 AM on November 3, 2015
Incidentally, I presume that the Doctor's death is still a thing he's waiting for, right? I mean, he's still playing that guitar at the start of every episode, and that confession dial never got opened...
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:48 AM on November 3, 2015
They don't look like they've changed that much to me. They're a bit more crinkly now.
I shouldn't admit this, but I had that poster on my wall as a kid (the old Zygon).
Totes different:
Much larger 'ribs'
Smaller forehead, larger face
No microphone in the top sucker.
They look more comic and less organic, and less slimy, to me.
posted by Mezentian at 2:55 AM on November 3, 2015
I shouldn't admit this, but I had that poster on my wall as a kid (the old Zygon).
Totes different:
Much larger 'ribs'
Smaller forehead, larger face
No microphone in the top sucker.
They look more comic and less organic, and less slimy, to me.
posted by Mezentian at 2:55 AM on November 3, 2015
"My XCOM Campaign, The FanFic"
(Would totally write this)
I totally did, in 1999 in an attempt to play the game along with the real date (the original XCom was set in 1999, 5 years after it's release) and no, you can't read it, because it was TERRIBLE!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 12:59 PM on November 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Would totally write this)
I totally did, in 1999 in an attempt to play the game along with the real date (the original XCom was set in 1999, 5 years after it's release) and no, you can't read it, because it was TERRIBLE!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 12:59 PM on November 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Can somebody explain to me why the Doctor couldn't just whip out that "machine that goes ding" and check who the Zygons were?
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 2:21 AM on November 6, 2015
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 2:21 AM on November 6, 2015
It was kind of hit or miss. Would let him know there was a Zygon in the area, but not who they were.
posted by zarq at 7:53 AM on November 6, 2015
posted by zarq at 7:53 AM on November 6, 2015
I thought it was, for all intents and purposes, impossible to detect whether a person was a Zygon or human? Otherwise that would ruin the ending of the previous episode where the originals and duplicates didn't remember who was human and who was Zygon - they could just check.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:27 PM on November 6, 2015
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:27 PM on November 6, 2015
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posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:25 PM on October 31, 2015 [8 favorites]