Legends of Tomorrow: Last Refuge
April 22, 2016 9:15 AM - Season 1, Episode 12 - Subscribe
The Pilgrim begins targeting each of the team members, so they decided to take themselves out of time as babies.
It goes as well as you'd expect.
You know, for a minute there, I was hopeful about the whole Omega Protocol business. I mean, stealing from The Terminator means you're cribbing from a great story about time travel shenanigans. Seems like it'd be hard to do wrong... and yet. Really, it felt like they were trying to compete with The Flash for 'dumbest show this week.'
What's saddest is... okay, so first Rip talks about the need for surgical strikes to remove them from time. Then the Pilgrim just showed up at a police station, shooting up a location in a way that cannot possibly escape notice to get at Sarah when she is *the most protected and observed*.
Despite that, I sort of liked her anyway - she was bulletproof, tough, etc. Like, not a bad implacable killer, and a credible threat to the team physically in a manner that the prior time hunter types haven't been. I mean, at least the Time Masters picked someone that the group couldn't just curbstomp.
Then... the plot dissolved into a mass of wtfery. As you said:
I mean, for example, the basic rules of time MAKE NO SENSE.
There were some good individual moments in that, but it just added up to a tangled skein of nonsense.
This week in Rip Hunter Is The Worst: some credit where it's due. Rip realizes that he also *used to be* The Worst and relies on the fact that his ten year old self would be carrying a knife and stab someone, given half a chance.
So props to the show because Rip was helpful, but demerits because even that could only occur because he embraced his true nature as the worst guy.
posted by mordax at 10:06 AM on April 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
What's saddest is... okay, so first Rip talks about the need for surgical strikes to remove them from time. Then the Pilgrim just showed up at a police station, shooting up a location in a way that cannot possibly escape notice to get at Sarah when she is *the most protected and observed*.
Despite that, I sort of liked her anyway - she was bulletproof, tough, etc. Like, not a bad implacable killer, and a credible threat to the team physically in a manner that the prior time hunter types haven't been. I mean, at least the Time Masters picked someone that the group couldn't just curbstomp.
Then... the plot dissolved into a mass of wtfery. As you said:
I mean, for example, the basic rules of time MAKE NO SENSE.
There were some good individual moments in that, but it just added up to a tangled skein of nonsense.
This week in Rip Hunter Is The Worst: some credit where it's due. Rip realizes that he also *used to be* The Worst and relies on the fact that his ten year old self would be carrying a knife and stab someone, given half a chance.
So props to the show because Rip was helpful, but demerits because even that could only occur because he embraced his true nature as the worst guy.
posted by mordax at 10:06 AM on April 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
Why wouldn't the Pilgrim go to kill Sara Lance when she was floating on a piece of debris out at sea? She was alone, helpless, weak, frightened... perfect setup to kill her unseen without resistance.
posted by Servo5678 at 10:54 AM on April 22, 2016
posted by Servo5678 at 10:54 AM on April 22, 2016
Why wouldn't the Pilgrim go to kill Sara Lance when she was floating on a piece of debris out at sea? She was alone, helpless, weak, frightened... perfect setup to kill her unseen without resistance.
The Time Masters aren't clairvoyant (at least not until the plot needs them to be?), so my guess is they are limited in their knowledge of a person's past to that person's documented history. Even if they knew when this happened, it's unlikely they could pinpoint her exact location at any moment within the timeframe. Whereas they would know Jax's birthday and the day Rory's house burned down, and would know where to find Jax and Rory on those days.
This was still better than The Flash this week, but a low point overall. I did like Kid Rip stabbing The Pilgrim, I have to say. But it all just seemed like filler.
I really hope our heroes kill Vandal Savage this season, because the driving premise of the show is unfortunately also its biggest weakness. Mashing the X-Men up with Doctor Who is a pretty good idea on its own, but their plan to save the future only makes less sense as it goes along, and frankly Vandal Savage is just not that interesting. I think the best thing that could happen is for the Legends to make nice with the Time Masters and get sent on a quest with one or more clear goals (ie, look: just do The Key to Time).
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:38 PM on April 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Time Masters aren't clairvoyant (at least not until the plot needs them to be?), so my guess is they are limited in their knowledge of a person's past to that person's documented history. Even if they knew when this happened, it's unlikely they could pinpoint her exact location at any moment within the timeframe. Whereas they would know Jax's birthday and the day Rory's house burned down, and would know where to find Jax and Rory on those days.
This was still better than The Flash this week, but a low point overall. I did like Kid Rip stabbing The Pilgrim, I have to say. But it all just seemed like filler.
I really hope our heroes kill Vandal Savage this season, because the driving premise of the show is unfortunately also its biggest weakness. Mashing the X-Men up with Doctor Who is a pretty good idea on its own, but their plan to save the future only makes less sense as it goes along, and frankly Vandal Savage is just not that interesting. I think the best thing that could happen is for the Legends to make nice with the Time Masters and get sent on a quest with one or more clear goals (ie, look: just do The Key to Time).
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:38 PM on April 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
I really hope our heroes kill Vandal Savage this season, because the driving premise of the show is unfortunately also its biggest weakness. Mashing the X-Men up with Doctor Who is a pretty good idea on its own, but their plan to save the future only makes less sense as it goes along, and frankly Vandal Savage is just not that interesting. I think the best thing that could happen is for the Legends to make nice with the Time Masters and get sent on a quest with one or more clear goals (ie, look: just do The Key to Time).
That's the only thing that can save the show, I feel. Their Vandal Savage is the worst, and their fight with the Time Masters is taking the show dumber and dumber places.
Personally, I was hoping this whole deal would be a little bit like Exiles: lots of short missions, maybe swapping out team members if someone wanted to leave or died, not confronting the big bads directly a whole lot, etc.
posted by mordax at 4:52 PM on April 22, 2016
That's the only thing that can save the show, I feel. Their Vandal Savage is the worst, and their fight with the Time Masters is taking the show dumber and dumber places.
Personally, I was hoping this whole deal would be a little bit like Exiles: lots of short missions, maybe swapping out team members if someone wanted to leave or died, not confronting the big bads directly a whole lot, etc.
posted by mordax at 4:52 PM on April 22, 2016
I really hope our heroes kill Vandal Savage this season,
Since they straight up killed The Pilgrim, they've already crossed that line.
Even Ray.
Ray is now a killer.
And so is Jax.
Why would they not kill Savage?
posted by Mezentian at 6:16 PM on April 22, 2016
Since they straight up killed The Pilgrim, they've already crossed that line.
Even Ray.
Ray is now a killer.
And so is Jax.
Why would they not kill Savage?
posted by Mezentian at 6:16 PM on April 22, 2016
Why would they not kill Savage?
The writers, not the team. If the writers decide to drag this out instead of coming up with a new threat, Vandal will survive. (I mean, nobody on the team has actually expressed a moral qualm regarding killing Savage, and some of them have already participated in it once.)
posted by mordax at 6:53 PM on April 22, 2016
The writers, not the team. If the writers decide to drag this out instead of coming up with a new threat, Vandal will survive. (I mean, nobody on the team has actually expressed a moral qualm regarding killing Savage, and some of them have already participated in it once.)
posted by mordax at 6:53 PM on April 22, 2016
Every episode just gets worse and worse when it comes to keeping to the show's own internal logic. Previously they weren't allowed to return to the same time twice. Okay, fine. Now all of the sudden the plan is to go back and replace the kidnapped younger selves in order to prevent them from disappearing from the time stream. How are they going to do that if that means they have to go back to (essentially) the same time that they couldn't return to before? I guess if they wanted to split hairs, they could to back to a day or two after the kidnappings, but that's a pretty big fudge, isn't it? Actually the same problem exists when it comes to returning the team to their present lives after they successfully (ha!) stop Savage.
I swear if I were ever put in charge of a time travel TV show/comic/etc. the first thing I would do would be to sit all of the writers down, and create the time travel rules bible. And then use that bible to beat any of the creative team who decided to ignore the rules and write whatever nonsense they wanted to and call it "creative plotting."
Speaking of beating, I wanted to smack Sara when she started telling her younger self about how Quentin was never going to lose his little girl. Are you kidding? That's all he has ever done? That was his standard go-to plot for most of Arrow. If you don't want to tell your younger self too much that's understandable, just don't outright lie.
Speaking of Quentin, why was taking the pill all of the sudden optional? You figure Rip would insist that every hostage take one. Given that it was optional, I was hoping Quentin would have refused just to be stubborn.
If I'm looking for the good, I guess it's that Jax is finally stepping up as one of the stronger characters. That has been a long time coming. He and Rory where pretty much the stars of the show this week.
So Rip is actually a Michael. I guess that's just tying him to Booster even more (assuming DC allows Booster to be linked to a TV property and not turned into a depressing grimdark movie about a disgraced sports star from a dystopian future struggling to cope with the shallow, fame-driven society of today.
As for the big finale fight, I can understand that they wanted a clean, neutral background upon which to impose the special effects, but man did that abandoned facility look like an under-dressed warehouse sound stage.
I'll see Servo5678's brilliant question and observation and raise with one of my own: why was Ray so hard to kill? If the Pilgrim is the best assassin the Time Masters have how could she have missed shooting him so easily when it was just the two of them alone a lab? Why did it look like he'd been on the receiving end of a beating instead of being a shooting victim?
posted by sardonyx at 10:09 PM on April 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
I swear if I were ever put in charge of a time travel TV show/comic/etc. the first thing I would do would be to sit all of the writers down, and create the time travel rules bible. And then use that bible to beat any of the creative team who decided to ignore the rules and write whatever nonsense they wanted to and call it "creative plotting."
Speaking of beating, I wanted to smack Sara when she started telling her younger self about how Quentin was never going to lose his little girl. Are you kidding? That's all he has ever done? That was his standard go-to plot for most of Arrow. If you don't want to tell your younger self too much that's understandable, just don't outright lie.
Speaking of Quentin, why was taking the pill all of the sudden optional? You figure Rip would insist that every hostage take one. Given that it was optional, I was hoping Quentin would have refused just to be stubborn.
If I'm looking for the good, I guess it's that Jax is finally stepping up as one of the stronger characters. That has been a long time coming. He and Rory where pretty much the stars of the show this week.
So Rip is actually a Michael. I guess that's just tying him to Booster even more (assuming DC allows Booster to be linked to a TV property and not turned into a depressing grimdark movie about a disgraced sports star from a dystopian future struggling to cope with the shallow, fame-driven society of today.
As for the big finale fight, I can understand that they wanted a clean, neutral background upon which to impose the special effects, but man did that abandoned facility look like an under-dressed warehouse sound stage.
I'll see Servo5678's brilliant question and observation and raise with one of my own: why was Ray so hard to kill? If the Pilgrim is the best assassin the Time Masters have how could she have missed shooting him so easily when it was just the two of them alone a lab? Why did it look like he'd been on the receiving end of a beating instead of being a shooting victim?
posted by sardonyx at 10:09 PM on April 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why did it look like he'd been on the receiving end of a beating instead of being a shooting victim?
Because all guns in this show - fire, ice, magic - use percussive force, except when they don't need to for plot reasons.
I can handwave away the extent of the wounds being lessened with time drift and having Ray be saved earlier, so the injuries never happened, but the gun thing annoys me week after week.
I was going to ask why Celia Imrie was slummin', but I see she was in Nativity 3: Dude, Where's My Donkey?!, so I guess the answer is money.
And poor young Rip. As if that weren't bad enough, the kid who plays him was Young William in the recent X-Files revival.
posted by Mezentian at 11:25 PM on April 22, 2016
Because all guns in this show - fire, ice, magic - use percussive force, except when they don't need to for plot reasons.
I can handwave away the extent of the wounds being lessened with time drift and having Ray be saved earlier, so the injuries never happened, but the gun thing annoys me week after week.
I was going to ask why Celia Imrie was slummin', but I see she was in Nativity 3: Dude, Where's My Donkey?!, so I guess the answer is money.
And poor young Rip. As if that weren't bad enough, the kid who plays him was Young William in the recent X-Files revival.
posted by Mezentian at 11:25 PM on April 22, 2016
I don't know why I've set the bar so low for this show, but, I still had fun with this one. Little baby Snart, all the Mick Rory & mini-Mick scenes, Quentin's wonderfully awful wig. None of the plot makes any sense whatsoever, of course, but it just doesn't irk me for some reason. (Maybe because I have no familiarity with the comics characters, so I don't know what I'm missing when it comes to someone like Mr. Rip "The Worst" Hunter.)
posted by oh yeah! at 8:04 AM on April 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by oh yeah! at 8:04 AM on April 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
You figure Rip would insist that every hostage take one.
Rip has proven himself to be incompetent. I think he defected after his first semester of Time Lord school. He learned just enough to cause maximum damage to the time line.
Mick, however, spent centuries training. He knows better, but just doesn't care.
posted by FallowKing at 8:25 AM on April 23, 2016
Rip has proven himself to be incompetent. I think he defected after his first semester of Time Lord school. He learned just enough to cause maximum damage to the time line.
Mick, however, spent centuries training. He knows better, but just doesn't care.
posted by FallowKing at 8:25 AM on April 23, 2016
I don't know why I've set the bar so low for this show, but, I still had fun with this one.
It did have its moments and all, sure. You're not silly to enjoy the good - it's a matter of personal taste when the dumb outweighs the awesome. :)
I don't know what I'm missing when it comes to someone like Mr. Rip "The Worst" Hunter.
I don't know him from the comics either - my reading of mainstream comics is sparse and eclectic, supplemented by poking around the Internet when I'm curious about something in particular. I'm basing my assessment that he is The Worst strictly from the show, wherein he is unquestionably the worst good guy in CW DC continuity.
In fact, at this point in the show's run, I'd be willing to have a serious discussion about whether or not he's actually worse than Vandal Savage. Like... okay. Savage is willing to kill half the population of the Earth for the sake of a selfish personal goal. He lies, he kills and he flouts the rule of law to serve himself.
Hunter is willing to *undo* the lives of the entire population of Earth for the sake of a selfish personal goal, to flip the table on the whole game on everybody. He lies, he kills and he flouts the rule of law to serve himself. It's easy to say he cares about Savage's reign of terror, but it's clear his motivations are personal: 'Vandal Savage conquered the world and murdered my wife and child.' It's probable his wife would ask him not to do this, being a former Time Master recruit herself, and aware of the ethical and practical concerns in altering timelines. It's clear that in the long run, Savage does not remain in control of everything because ultimately, the Time Masters exist in a non-Savage world. Hunter never hesitates even though he makes mistake after mistake that only feeds Savage's power.
The two of them are competing for History's Greatest Monster. I wish the show were doing it on purpose, because it would be completely awesome. Instead... oy. So dumb. Why does it have to be so dumb? Hahaha.
Makes me feel sorry for poor Darvill, too. Man, Rory was so great.
posted by mordax at 11:56 AM on April 23, 2016
It did have its moments and all, sure. You're not silly to enjoy the good - it's a matter of personal taste when the dumb outweighs the awesome. :)
I don't know what I'm missing when it comes to someone like Mr. Rip "The Worst" Hunter.
I don't know him from the comics either - my reading of mainstream comics is sparse and eclectic, supplemented by poking around the Internet when I'm curious about something in particular. I'm basing my assessment that he is The Worst strictly from the show, wherein he is unquestionably the worst good guy in CW DC continuity.
In fact, at this point in the show's run, I'd be willing to have a serious discussion about whether or not he's actually worse than Vandal Savage. Like... okay. Savage is willing to kill half the population of the Earth for the sake of a selfish personal goal. He lies, he kills and he flouts the rule of law to serve himself.
Hunter is willing to *undo* the lives of the entire population of Earth for the sake of a selfish personal goal, to flip the table on the whole game on everybody. He lies, he kills and he flouts the rule of law to serve himself. It's easy to say he cares about Savage's reign of terror, but it's clear his motivations are personal: 'Vandal Savage conquered the world and murdered my wife and child.' It's probable his wife would ask him not to do this, being a former Time Master recruit herself, and aware of the ethical and practical concerns in altering timelines. It's clear that in the long run, Savage does not remain in control of everything because ultimately, the Time Masters exist in a non-Savage world. Hunter never hesitates even though he makes mistake after mistake that only feeds Savage's power.
The two of them are competing for History's Greatest Monster. I wish the show were doing it on purpose, because it would be completely awesome. Instead... oy. So dumb. Why does it have to be so dumb? Hahaha.
Makes me feel sorry for poor Darvill, too. Man, Rory was so great.
posted by mordax at 11:56 AM on April 23, 2016
I'm basing my assessment that he is The Worst strictly from the show, wherein he is unquestionably the worst good guy in CW DC continuity.
Oh, I know. I just mean that my enjoyment of this dumb show is probably enhanced by not having anything good to compare characters like Hunter, Kendra, Carter, or Savage to. Unlike any comics fans who actually liked reading their stories. Like New-Trek fans who can enjoy the movies as eye-candy sci-fi, whereas I can only rant about the dumbing-down of a beloved franchise.
posted by oh yeah! at 12:20 PM on April 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, I know. I just mean that my enjoyment of this dumb show is probably enhanced by not having anything good to compare characters like Hunter, Kendra, Carter, or Savage to. Unlike any comics fans who actually liked reading their stories. Like New-Trek fans who can enjoy the movies as eye-candy sci-fi, whereas I can only rant about the dumbing-down of a beloved franchise.
posted by oh yeah! at 12:20 PM on April 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, I know. I just mean that my enjoyment of this dumb show is probably enhanced by not having anything good to compare characters like Hunter, Kendra, Carter, or Savage to. Unlike any comics fans who actually liked reading their stories.
Hahaha. That's a good point. Of course, all I can think hearing you say that is that you should join me. I think you would *really* like the Paul Dini/Bruce Timm continuity because it is my favorite and clearly everyone else should agree. ;)
Like, Superman: TAS is what actually sold me on Superman as a viable character, and Justice League Hawkgirl wanted to flip off Cthulhu one time, and Vandal Savage could do better than knives.
Justice League/Justice League Unlimited is still up on Netflix, last I checked. The first season's pretty rough, but it rapidly escalates to better than I've ever seen out of the CWDC universe. (The only person who is consistently good enough to be mentioned alongside that crew is Tom Cavanaugh, IMO.)
posted by mordax at 12:51 PM on April 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hahaha. That's a good point. Of course, all I can think hearing you say that is that you should join me. I think you would *really* like the Paul Dini/Bruce Timm continuity because it is my favorite and clearly everyone else should agree. ;)
Like, Superman: TAS is what actually sold me on Superman as a viable character, and Justice League Hawkgirl wanted to flip off Cthulhu one time, and Vandal Savage could do better than knives.
Justice League/Justice League Unlimited is still up on Netflix, last I checked. The first season's pretty rough, but it rapidly escalates to better than I've ever seen out of the CWDC universe. (The only person who is consistently good enough to be mentioned alongside that crew is Tom Cavanaugh, IMO.)
posted by mordax at 12:51 PM on April 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
So the problem is, a trained assassin/time traveler is using a timeship to try and kill their younger selves?
That works? Just target them as kids, kill 'em then?
If only they were riding around on a timeship with a trained assassin/time traveler of their own. You know, someone like Chronos. Then they could just kill baby Pilgrim and be done with it.
Or baby Vandal Savage.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:16 PM on April 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
That works? Just target them as kids, kill 'em then?
If only they were riding around on a timeship with a trained assassin/time traveler of their own. You know, someone like Chronos. Then they could just kill baby Pilgrim and be done with it.
Or baby Vandal Savage.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:16 PM on April 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can the timeships only go a couple centuries back and forth in time? Why not go back milennia and just shoot the damn meteor out of space before it even gets close to hitting the temple of Horus? Hawk Girl wouldn't get her powers, but her love troubles would be over. And no more Handle Baggage to worry about.
Jax's Dad: When you came to see me in the hospital the day you were born...
Jax (should have said): You mean earlier today?
I don't feel very good about the total lack of qualms they had when the final plan was "Have a ten-year-old boy stab the lady repeatedly." No one seemed to have any damn problem with that AT ALL, in fact I think the next scene was young The Worst getting a cinnamon bun and everything was all happy homes.
And I wasn't clear on this point - did they just have the expectation that given the chance, young The Worst would spontaneously stab her? Or did they coach him to do it? WHICH IS WORSE?!?!
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 11:10 PM on April 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jax's Dad: When you came to see me in the hospital the day you were born...
Jax (should have said): You mean earlier today?
I don't feel very good about the total lack of qualms they had when the final plan was "Have a ten-year-old boy stab the lady repeatedly." No one seemed to have any damn problem with that AT ALL, in fact I think the next scene was young The Worst getting a cinnamon bun and everything was all happy homes.
And I wasn't clear on this point - did they just have the expectation that given the chance, young The Worst would spontaneously stab her? Or did they coach him to do it? WHICH IS WORSE?!?!
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 11:10 PM on April 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Rip had the expectation that his younger self would kill her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:25 AM on May 17, 2016
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:25 AM on May 17, 2016
Shout out to Martin's mom, the true superhero. Not only does she give birth in a car, she births a totally clean baby wearing a shirt.
posted by Nelson at 10:24 PM on January 14, 2018
posted by Nelson at 10:24 PM on January 14, 2018
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Which might be more than the characters or the scriptwriters.
But it was directed by the great Rachel Talalay.
So, there's that.
I've got nothing.
It's a shitshow, with moment of Snart and snark, but mostly, sense has left the building. And gone on holiday.
I mean, for example, the basic rules of time MAKE NO SENSE.
There are no sounds of thunder where.
posted by Mezentian at 9:20 AM on April 22, 2016 [2 favorites]