Star Trek: Voyager: Prime Factors Rewatch
February 2, 2017 3:23 AM - Season 1, Episode 10 - Subscribe
Please, come to our planet of pleasure. We ask nothing at all in return. To give you pleasure gives us pleasure. I assure you, ours is a world where nothing can possi-blie go wrong. …PossiBLY go wrong. …That's the first thing that's…ever gone wrong.
It pleases me to direct you to the Memory Alpha page for this episode:
- David R. George III and Eric A. Stillwell's original story involved the crew of Voyager encountering the race that had dispatched Gary Seven in the Original Series episode "Assignment: Earth". That race had boasted transporter technology that could transport individuals over thousands of light-years. According to Stillwell, "David and I speculated what might happen if the Voyager crew happened upon that civilization. What if they had the ability to transport our crew back to Earth, but because of some terrible failure caused by their intervention on another world in the past, they'd adopted their own kind of Prime Directive to avoid any such disasters in the future? This was the essence of our pitch." George continued, "As we pitched the story to the producers, though, we realized that they did not want such a strong tie to the original series, and so we spontaneously dropped that aspect of the plot. Fortunately, the producers liked enough of the rest of the tale to send us off with a few notes and an invitation to pitch a second draft. Eric and I did so, and that version of the episode sold."
- In this episode's pre-production stage, Tuvok actor Tim Russ raised some reservations about his character's betrayal of Janeway in the episode, so the actor's input became influential to the script. He noted, "We changed about thirty percent of the script just from my input alone." Russ commented further, "I did get a lot of things changed in that script. Janeway's whole speech at the end was much different. It was much more reprimanding and much harsher and, based on their relationship, that would have not been appropriate." Jeri Taylor concurred, "We made some minor modifications that made it possible for Tim to integrate that action into his conception of his character [i.e. Tuvok's betrayal of Janeway] and we shot the film."
- According to Tim Russ, the main point that he wished to clarify was that, although the writers wanted Tuvok's motivation for betraying Janeway to be that it was the only logical thing left for him to do, logic – according to Russ' beliefs – is only a way to do things, not a reason for doing them. Instead, Russ wanted to make clear that the reason Tuvok chose to act against his captain (sacrificing his commission) was to essentially save her from a shipboard mutiny that seemed otherwise probable.
- Due to their disappointment with the Sikarians, Voyager's team of writer-producers ultimately discarded their initial plans to make those aliens recurring antagonists. Regarding the concept of the pleasure-seekers, Michael Piller noted, "It didn't come off interesting enough to bring them back."
- According to the stardates, the events of the 24th century portion of Star Trek Generations take place shortly before this episode and conclude just before the next one.
"It's the first time we've been on the other side of the fence. How many times have we been in the position of refusing to interfere when some kind of disaster threatened an alien culture? It's all very well to say we do it on the basis of an enlightened principle. But how does that feel to the aliens?"
- Captain Janeway
"I don't enjoy being judged like this. It's most unsettling, not at all pleasurable."
- Gath to Captain Janeway
"I don't even know where to start. I want you to explain how you, of all people, could be involved in this."
"It's quite simple, captain. You have made it quite clear, on many occasions, that your highest goal is to get the crew home. But in this instance, your standards would not allow you to violate Sikarian law. Someone had to spare you the ethical dilemma. I was the logical choice. And so I chose to act."
- Janeway and Tuvok
"You are one of my most valued officers. And you are my friend. It is vital that you understand me here. I need you. But I also need to know that I can count on you. You are my counsel. The one I turn to when I need my moral compass checked. We have forged this relationship for years and I depend on it."
- Janeway to Tuvok
"You can use logic to justify anything. That's its power and its flaw."
- Janeway to Tuvok
Poster's Log: Tell me I'm not the only one who finds Janeway's reaction in the final scene wildly disproportionate to the situation. Should she be pissed off at Tuvok and Torres? Undoubtedly. Should she pull a little rank to demonstrate it? Yes; she IS the captain. But should she utterly fail to even acknowledge that she understands and sympathizes with their reasoning? Under the circumstances, not a chance—unless she WANTS a mutiny. Her big chewing-out scene is a complete tonal 180 from her earlier indecision about whether her principles are more important than getting everybody home.
And what's more, once she's alone with Tuvok, what she says in response to his explanation seems to largely ignore everything he says. Instead she focuses on what SHE needs. Now, I'll grant you, they're obviously friends, so she can do that without being hugely unprofessional—but at minimum it's insensitive, and I'd argue it could inspire Tuvok to come away from that conversation going "Holy crap I had no idea Humans could lose perspective THAT much." It's as if, off-screen at some point prior to this, Janeway said to herself "Nah, I'm going all-in on Starfleet/Prime Directive fundamentalism; it's easier that way." More remarkable still is that, according to the episode's production background, apparently she was even harsher in the original draft. (The alternate-production-universe Ron-Moore-esque way to handle this might have been for the trajector to actually be compatible with Starfleet technology, but then Janeway reacts the same way, and within a few episodes, bam, full-on mutiny.)
Anyway, in spite of all that, it's an effective episode. The planet is sort of bland in a TNG way, but the concepts, conflicts, and acting are all gripping. Nice clever title too. Good to see Carey get some screen time; the next episode, "State of Flux," is the last time we'll see him until season five (and the last time we'll see the "real" Carey until season seven).
Poster's Log, Supplemental: Before I forget, let me recommend to you all the film that contains my favorite Kate Mulgrew performance: Throw Momma from the Train. It's best described as a goofy black comedy, and is IMO one of the best comedies of the '80s. Danny DeVito directed and plays one of the leads, in a highly memorable role, opposite Billy Crystal. Janeway fans who have not seen it will want to do so, even though her role is secondary.
It pleases me to direct you to the Memory Alpha page for this episode:
- David R. George III and Eric A. Stillwell's original story involved the crew of Voyager encountering the race that had dispatched Gary Seven in the Original Series episode "Assignment: Earth". That race had boasted transporter technology that could transport individuals over thousands of light-years. According to Stillwell, "David and I speculated what might happen if the Voyager crew happened upon that civilization. What if they had the ability to transport our crew back to Earth, but because of some terrible failure caused by their intervention on another world in the past, they'd adopted their own kind of Prime Directive to avoid any such disasters in the future? This was the essence of our pitch." George continued, "As we pitched the story to the producers, though, we realized that they did not want such a strong tie to the original series, and so we spontaneously dropped that aspect of the plot. Fortunately, the producers liked enough of the rest of the tale to send us off with a few notes and an invitation to pitch a second draft. Eric and I did so, and that version of the episode sold."
- In this episode's pre-production stage, Tuvok actor Tim Russ raised some reservations about his character's betrayal of Janeway in the episode, so the actor's input became influential to the script. He noted, "We changed about thirty percent of the script just from my input alone." Russ commented further, "I did get a lot of things changed in that script. Janeway's whole speech at the end was much different. It was much more reprimanding and much harsher and, based on their relationship, that would have not been appropriate." Jeri Taylor concurred, "We made some minor modifications that made it possible for Tim to integrate that action into his conception of his character [i.e. Tuvok's betrayal of Janeway] and we shot the film."
- According to Tim Russ, the main point that he wished to clarify was that, although the writers wanted Tuvok's motivation for betraying Janeway to be that it was the only logical thing left for him to do, logic – according to Russ' beliefs – is only a way to do things, not a reason for doing them. Instead, Russ wanted to make clear that the reason Tuvok chose to act against his captain (sacrificing his commission) was to essentially save her from a shipboard mutiny that seemed otherwise probable.
- Due to their disappointment with the Sikarians, Voyager's team of writer-producers ultimately discarded their initial plans to make those aliens recurring antagonists. Regarding the concept of the pleasure-seekers, Michael Piller noted, "It didn't come off interesting enough to bring them back."
- According to the stardates, the events of the 24th century portion of Star Trek Generations take place shortly before this episode and conclude just before the next one.
"It's the first time we've been on the other side of the fence. How many times have we been in the position of refusing to interfere when some kind of disaster threatened an alien culture? It's all very well to say we do it on the basis of an enlightened principle. But how does that feel to the aliens?"
- Captain Janeway
"I don't enjoy being judged like this. It's most unsettling, not at all pleasurable."
- Gath to Captain Janeway
"I don't even know where to start. I want you to explain how you, of all people, could be involved in this."
"It's quite simple, captain. You have made it quite clear, on many occasions, that your highest goal is to get the crew home. But in this instance, your standards would not allow you to violate Sikarian law. Someone had to spare you the ethical dilemma. I was the logical choice. And so I chose to act."
- Janeway and Tuvok
"You are one of my most valued officers. And you are my friend. It is vital that you understand me here. I need you. But I also need to know that I can count on you. You are my counsel. The one I turn to when I need my moral compass checked. We have forged this relationship for years and I depend on it."
- Janeway to Tuvok
"You can use logic to justify anything. That's its power and its flaw."
- Janeway to Tuvok
Poster's Log: Tell me I'm not the only one who finds Janeway's reaction in the final scene wildly disproportionate to the situation. Should she be pissed off at Tuvok and Torres? Undoubtedly. Should she pull a little rank to demonstrate it? Yes; she IS the captain. But should she utterly fail to even acknowledge that she understands and sympathizes with their reasoning? Under the circumstances, not a chance—unless she WANTS a mutiny. Her big chewing-out scene is a complete tonal 180 from her earlier indecision about whether her principles are more important than getting everybody home.
And what's more, once she's alone with Tuvok, what she says in response to his explanation seems to largely ignore everything he says. Instead she focuses on what SHE needs. Now, I'll grant you, they're obviously friends, so she can do that without being hugely unprofessional—but at minimum it's insensitive, and I'd argue it could inspire Tuvok to come away from that conversation going "Holy crap I had no idea Humans could lose perspective THAT much." It's as if, off-screen at some point prior to this, Janeway said to herself "Nah, I'm going all-in on Starfleet/Prime Directive fundamentalism; it's easier that way." More remarkable still is that, according to the episode's production background, apparently she was even harsher in the original draft. (The alternate-production-universe Ron-Moore-esque way to handle this might have been for the trajector to actually be compatible with Starfleet technology, but then Janeway reacts the same way, and within a few episodes, bam, full-on mutiny.)
Anyway, in spite of all that, it's an effective episode. The planet is sort of bland in a TNG way, but the concepts, conflicts, and acting are all gripping. Nice clever title too. Good to see Carey get some screen time; the next episode, "State of Flux," is the last time we'll see him until season five (and the last time we'll see the "real" Carey until season seven).
Poster's Log, Supplemental: Before I forget, let me recommend to you all the film that contains my favorite Kate Mulgrew performance: Throw Momma from the Train. It's best described as a goofy black comedy, and is IMO one of the best comedies of the '80s. Danny DeVito directed and plays one of the leads, in a highly memorable role, opposite Billy Crystal. Janeway fans who have not seen it will want to do so, even though her role is secondary.
It didn't come off interesting enough to bring them back.
I didn't find them interesting at all, I found them, and the majority of this episode, ridiculous, on original viewing and on this one.
posted by juiceCake at 7:58 AM on February 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I didn't find them interesting at all, I found them, and the majority of this episode, ridiculous, on original viewing and on this one.
posted by juiceCake at 7:58 AM on February 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Let me just get this out of the way: holy sheepdip did Gath ever come off as the skeeviest skeevemaster of Planet Skeevington. The best comparison that I can make to him is Will Ferrell's old SNL character Roger Klarvin. It's hard to imagine a worse representative for your planet current political events notwithstanding, especially when it's clear that he's been stringing Janeway along in his pursuit of pah-lezh-oore. (Seriously. Does "yeah, yeah, we'll scoot your starship along 40K lightyears or whatever, now are we gonna bang or what?" count as sexual assault by deception? Because it should, even if nosexy is a bigger crime on Sikaris.) The other Sikarians don't come off much better; Jaret probably also knew that the trajector wouldn't work, although he trades it for what amounts to Project Gutenberg, and while Eudara (aka Harry Kim's Insta-girlfriend) doesn't come off as bad, it's kind of baffling that she didn't seem to realize that someone who's on a ship that's desperately looking for a shortcut across the galaxy might be more interested in the tech that would allow them to do exactly that than the local version of jamaharon. I don't blame them for not wanting to give out their super-transporter tech to any old Caretaker-yanked ship that comes down the pike--it's not a lot different from the Iconian gateway in DS9's "To the Death"--but you'd think that they'd be a lot more careful about letting it out, or even revealing it to random crewmembers that they want to canoodle with, especially with other races such as the Organ Snatchers or the Bad Hair Murderhoboes around. I'm not sure if it would have made a difference if they'd been Gary Seven's Assigners, as originally planned; they come off as a variation on the Edo, the half-naked blond people from TNG's "Justice", who are apparently too preoccupied with the pursuit of pah-lezh-oore to think things through very well.
But anyway. I agree that the Tuvok-Janeway confrontation needed some additional work (and appreciate that Tim Russ thinks so as well), and wish that a bit more thought had been put into mapping out the arguments and how they'd play out not just here but in the future, since, you know, it's germane to the bedrock premise of the show and all. (The "Equinox" two-parter will cover much of this territory very well--both in showing what might have happened to Voyager if they'd gone too far down the needs-must path, and also showing that they were still very much at risk of doing so--but that's on the other end of the series.) I liked that Carey decided to crash the Maquis Kool Kidz Engineers' soft-mutiny party; again, that moral flexibility and occasional/partial co-option of each others' roles is something that should have been done more often and along a spectrum of sorts. I think that I may have LOLed at Seska's statement that they had to get back to the AQ to fight the Cardassians, given what's coming up in the very next episode.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:34 AM on February 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
But anyway. I agree that the Tuvok-Janeway confrontation needed some additional work (and appreciate that Tim Russ thinks so as well), and wish that a bit more thought had been put into mapping out the arguments and how they'd play out not just here but in the future, since, you know, it's germane to the bedrock premise of the show and all. (The "Equinox" two-parter will cover much of this territory very well--both in showing what might have happened to Voyager if they'd gone too far down the needs-must path, and also showing that they were still very much at risk of doing so--but that's on the other end of the series.) I liked that Carey decided to crash the Maquis Kool Kidz Engineers' soft-mutiny party; again, that moral flexibility and occasional/partial co-option of each others' roles is something that should have been done more often and along a spectrum of sorts. I think that I may have LOLed at Seska's statement that they had to get back to the AQ to fight the Cardassians, given what's coming up in the very next episode.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:34 AM on February 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, too: I totes agree with oh yeah! about Mulgrew's voice having definite ASMR qualities. And I'd totally forgotten about her being in Throw Momma from the Train, which I also loved.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:45 AM on February 2, 2017
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:45 AM on February 2, 2017
Particle of the Week: Antineutrinos.
Pointless STO Comparison of the Week: By the era of Star Trek Online, limited trajector technology can be incorporated into starships via expensive technology, but it allows for short hops in combat rather than interstellar tesseracting.
Equipment Tally: No change to photon torpedoes, shuttles or crew.
Notes:
* Gath is a really well realized horrifying Nice Guy.
Let me just get this out of the way: holy sheepdip did Gath ever come off as the skeeviest skeevemaster of Planet Skeevington.
Oh my goodness, yes! Every time he said the word 'pleasure,' my skin crawled. He was clearly just in this to sleep with Janeway, and I think just for the story of it later. I can just see him at a fancy party later, 'And let me tell you about the time I was stringing the crew of the Voyager along for kicks, my friends. It was a great pleasure until those ingrates didn't want to live here...'
Plus, he offered one of the most ugly displays of raw, unexamined privilege I've ever seen in Trek: the thing where he took Janeway's differing values as a personal attack was, like, spot on from every other time I've looked at Facebook. I just really hope that was all intentional on the part of the writers, but I dunno about those guys.
* As CheeseofBrazil promised, Janeway's completely irrational here.
Her big chewing-out scene is a complete tonal 180 from her earlier indecision about whether her principles are more important than getting everybody home.
Yep. This whole deal comes across as 'Janeway may be ill or something.' One minute, she's dealing with this in her usual nuanced way - 'What should we do? Can we break local law?' The next minute, she's like, 'Nope, Starfleet rules, guys.'
The worst part is, they're all just taking the anecdotes of locals at face value. This is a first contact situation, where they should be taking very little for granted, and they don't even bother to ask about reference materials to understand local customs. (The Doctor could've easily absorbed and parsed any such thing.)
Even if she didn't go with selling the library to Jaret, this was absolutely a mutiny risk - I mean, they had a mild one right in the episode, and if I were on that ship, I would've been with the conspirators.
All I can think is that the writers just really wanted her to deliver some Big Speechifying, never mind if it made sense or not. (Recurring flaw in Voyager: it is, once again, clear the writers aren't thinking about the premise of their own show in any meaningful way. This is another case of 'they really just seemed to want a TNG episode.')
* It was nice to see mutiny bring everyone together.
I liked watch B'Ellana and Carey team up. It was also lots of fun to watch Seska making moves and pushing buttons. Plus, Tuvok getting in on it at the end made the whole thing for me. I guess something like this really would bring the two crews together... against Janeway.
'Cause seriously, they *had* to try.
So yeah. I feel like the good aspects of this episode were unintentional on the part of the writers, especially after hearing that Tim Russ had to talk them down from worse excesses.
posted by mordax at 9:11 AM on February 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Pointless STO Comparison of the Week: By the era of Star Trek Online, limited trajector technology can be incorporated into starships via expensive technology, but it allows for short hops in combat rather than interstellar tesseracting.
Equipment Tally: No change to photon torpedoes, shuttles or crew.
Notes:
* Gath is a really well realized horrifying Nice Guy.
Let me just get this out of the way: holy sheepdip did Gath ever come off as the skeeviest skeevemaster of Planet Skeevington.
Oh my goodness, yes! Every time he said the word 'pleasure,' my skin crawled. He was clearly just in this to sleep with Janeway, and I think just for the story of it later. I can just see him at a fancy party later, 'And let me tell you about the time I was stringing the crew of the Voyager along for kicks, my friends. It was a great pleasure until those ingrates didn't want to live here...'
Plus, he offered one of the most ugly displays of raw, unexamined privilege I've ever seen in Trek: the thing where he took Janeway's differing values as a personal attack was, like, spot on from every other time I've looked at Facebook. I just really hope that was all intentional on the part of the writers, but I dunno about those guys.
* As CheeseofBrazil promised, Janeway's completely irrational here.
Her big chewing-out scene is a complete tonal 180 from her earlier indecision about whether her principles are more important than getting everybody home.
Yep. This whole deal comes across as 'Janeway may be ill or something.' One minute, she's dealing with this in her usual nuanced way - 'What should we do? Can we break local law?' The next minute, she's like, 'Nope, Starfleet rules, guys.'
The worst part is, they're all just taking the anecdotes of locals at face value. This is a first contact situation, where they should be taking very little for granted, and they don't even bother to ask about reference materials to understand local customs. (The Doctor could've easily absorbed and parsed any such thing.)
Even if she didn't go with selling the library to Jaret, this was absolutely a mutiny risk - I mean, they had a mild one right in the episode, and if I were on that ship, I would've been with the conspirators.
All I can think is that the writers just really wanted her to deliver some Big Speechifying, never mind if it made sense or not. (Recurring flaw in Voyager: it is, once again, clear the writers aren't thinking about the premise of their own show in any meaningful way. This is another case of 'they really just seemed to want a TNG episode.')
* It was nice to see mutiny bring everyone together.
I liked watch B'Ellana and Carey team up. It was also lots of fun to watch Seska making moves and pushing buttons. Plus, Tuvok getting in on it at the end made the whole thing for me. I guess something like this really would bring the two crews together... against Janeway.
'Cause seriously, they *had* to try.
So yeah. I feel like the good aspects of this episode were unintentional on the part of the writers, especially after hearing that Tim Russ had to talk them down from worse excesses.
posted by mordax at 9:11 AM on February 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Let me just get this out of the way: holy sheepdip did Gath ever come off as the skeeviest skeevemaster of Planet Skeevington.
Absolutely. We're all far to familiar with people like that getting wide acceptance given recent and not so recent events in politics but I still have a hard time parsing that anyone couldn't see him for what he was. I've been to parties where there's guys like that instantly harrass your significant other about the small mindedness and mistake they're making by not fucking them.
posted by juiceCake at 11:53 AM on February 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Absolutely. We're all far to familiar with people like that getting wide acceptance given recent and not so recent events in politics but I still have a hard time parsing that anyone couldn't see him for what he was. I've been to parties where there's guys like that instantly harrass your significant other about the small mindedness and mistake they're making by not fucking them.
posted by juiceCake at 11:53 AM on February 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Absolutely. We're all far to familiar with people like that getting wide acceptance given recent and not so recent events in politics but I still have a hard time parsing that anyone couldn't see him for what he was. I've been to parties where there's guys like that instantly harrass your significant other about the small mindedness and mistake they're making by not fucking them.
I'll be rewatching the episode this weekend, but as a more general comment about the Rodenberry vision, it would be, I'd think, far more difficult for morally "advanced" civilizations to recognize deviousness or dishonesty if they'd largely rid themselves of those practices in their own culture. I mean if Tom Paris is what passes for a "dangerous" guy in the romantic sense of the idea, then clearly the culture has lost a fair bit of range in what constitutes differing behavior norms.
I say that only partly in jest as one of the biggest problems Rodenberryians faced with the post OS Treks is mapping out believable moral and emotional dilemmas that can come across as more deeply human in their inconsistencies than theoretical debates. The OS' undervalued strength was in how much more "primal" its psychological underpinnings often were, with sex, for example, being far more of a motivating factor, even if not expressed directly in the text as such. Removing those underpinning instincts, or blunting them can make the later shows ironically feel more adolescent at times by treating certain desires and the actions and attitudes they cause as less meaningful than the ideas of actions and beliefs.
It's a bit Platonic in a way, where the shows sometimes feel like they are so removed from "darker" human behaviors that the stories don't really stick. Even in episodes like this, it's talk about pleasure, not really experiential envisioning of it that they are working with, which makes it feel like the stakes are lacking, or that the people talking haven't actually experienced what they're talking about, sorta like DARE talks on drugs or fundies talking about premarital sex.
It's great that Trek does pay a lot more attention to some equally powerful human attributes that aren't as often explored, like curiosity and the desire for discovery and improvement, but I'm so sold on how they treat those beliefs without those less wholesome values as balancing measures. Since so many of the best episodes, at least as generally ranked, do in fact push back against the more wholesome Rodenberryesque vision of evolving consciousness, it either might mean that "we" viewers just aren't evolved enough ourselves to appreciate these kinds of episodes as much, or that the writing of them faces the same problem as viewing them, the writers too not being so advanced as to get beyond themselves which makes the projections of improved morality inherently flawed since they so often lack connection with what we flawed humans see as reality, even accounting for being shown in a kind of artistic metaphor.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:27 AM on February 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'll be rewatching the episode this weekend, but as a more general comment about the Rodenberry vision, it would be, I'd think, far more difficult for morally "advanced" civilizations to recognize deviousness or dishonesty if they'd largely rid themselves of those practices in their own culture. I mean if Tom Paris is what passes for a "dangerous" guy in the romantic sense of the idea, then clearly the culture has lost a fair bit of range in what constitutes differing behavior norms.
I say that only partly in jest as one of the biggest problems Rodenberryians faced with the post OS Treks is mapping out believable moral and emotional dilemmas that can come across as more deeply human in their inconsistencies than theoretical debates. The OS' undervalued strength was in how much more "primal" its psychological underpinnings often were, with sex, for example, being far more of a motivating factor, even if not expressed directly in the text as such. Removing those underpinning instincts, or blunting them can make the later shows ironically feel more adolescent at times by treating certain desires and the actions and attitudes they cause as less meaningful than the ideas of actions and beliefs.
It's a bit Platonic in a way, where the shows sometimes feel like they are so removed from "darker" human behaviors that the stories don't really stick. Even in episodes like this, it's talk about pleasure, not really experiential envisioning of it that they are working with, which makes it feel like the stakes are lacking, or that the people talking haven't actually experienced what they're talking about, sorta like DARE talks on drugs or fundies talking about premarital sex.
It's great that Trek does pay a lot more attention to some equally powerful human attributes that aren't as often explored, like curiosity and the desire for discovery and improvement, but I'm so sold on how they treat those beliefs without those less wholesome values as balancing measures. Since so many of the best episodes, at least as generally ranked, do in fact push back against the more wholesome Rodenberryesque vision of evolving consciousness, it either might mean that "we" viewers just aren't evolved enough ourselves to appreciate these kinds of episodes as much, or that the writing of them faces the same problem as viewing them, the writers too not being so advanced as to get beyond themselves which makes the projections of improved morality inherently flawed since they so often lack connection with what we flawed humans see as reality, even accounting for being shown in a kind of artistic metaphor.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:27 AM on February 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
This episode is much better if you imagine all of Gath's lines being said by Futurama's Hedonismbot.
posted by Servo5678 at 7:44 AM on February 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Servo5678 at 7:44 AM on February 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
I mean if Tom Paris is what passes for a "dangerous" guy in the romantic sense of the idea, then clearly the culture has lost a fair bit of range in what constitutes differing behavior norms.
I don't think that he is, although he seems to like to portray himself as the bad boy, particularly when he's talking to Harry, and with his fascination with 20th-century technology and culture, he may be drawing from that century's tropes and cliches. But he keeps putting the same dream woman in his holodeck programs, and he's the one of the crew who forms a stable relationship and starts a family by the end of the series.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:09 AM on February 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't think that he is, although he seems to like to portray himself as the bad boy, particularly when he's talking to Harry, and with his fascination with 20th-century technology and culture, he may be drawing from that century's tropes and cliches. But he keeps putting the same dream woman in his holodeck programs, and he's the one of the crew who forms a stable relationship and starts a family by the end of the series.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:09 AM on February 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, sure, by the end of the series Paris is a different man, reconciled with his father, married, and more stable, but at this point we've seen him as a former prisoner with ties to both Starfleet, where he was involved in a scandal and death and rebeled against his Admiral father, and the Maquis, where Chakotay singled him out as a bigger traitor than spy Tovuk, he shown as a "womanizer", though not a particularly convincing one, and "ace" button pilot. That's a common enough set of markers for the trope of the "dangerous" guy, but with Paris all we have are those markers since his the rest is portrayed in such a tame fashion that it's difficult to separate out anything that differentiates him much from many of the other characters.
Paris isn't the only one with this problem, Chakotay has it too, but his markers are even more restrictive to his character's personality, so there's less vagueness, but worse stereotyping. I think this is something that often comes with shows lacking strong showrunners or guidelines for character development. Much of the cast becomes reduced to cliche or fuzzy outline as writers use a limited set of qualities to define them or push them into more generic response to fit the needs of an episode.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:39 AM on February 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Paris isn't the only one with this problem, Chakotay has it too, but his markers are even more restrictive to his character's personality, so there's less vagueness, but worse stereotyping. I think this is something that often comes with shows lacking strong showrunners or guidelines for character development. Much of the cast becomes reduced to cliche or fuzzy outline as writers use a limited set of qualities to define them or push them into more generic response to fit the needs of an episode.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:39 AM on February 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
So I spent the last week or so moving but finally got around to watching this episode again last night. I found I was even a little irked that the move was keeping me from seeing it just because I enjoy reviewing the show via these threads, so thanks for that as it helped make the move seem less annoying since there was at least some hint of enjoyment waiting at the end. (I even had my Voyager dvds in a separate bag so I could get to them more easily once I brought everything in to the new place so I wouldn't have to search for them. Heh.)
Anyway, I found more to like on this repeat viewing than I did the first time I watched the episode, even though some of the things that weren't so pleasing remained unsatisfying. Gath, in particular, wasn't handled as well as he should have been, which seems to go to both the writers and Guttman's performance. He was, as suggested, too unctuous to make the needed impression as a, at least initially, inviting possibility for romance with Janeway. The romantic angle seemed intended as something of an amplifier of the larger dilemma over acquiring the technology or making use of it to shorten Voyager's journey. In essence there was a Indecent Proposal subtext to the story, where Janeway's own personal morals are being matched against the crew's perspective on the Prime Directive and their own moral culpability.
This comes up early on when Seska, B'Elanna, and Paris are ribbing Harry about his date with one of the Delaney twins, the suggestion being that Harry's moral values are a bit too conservative compared to that of the others. This exchange sets the stage for Harry's later encounter with Eudana and his "discovery" of their spatial trajector technology. One can read Harry's actions in turning away from romantic possibilities after seeing the trajector in action both as being a comment on his own reticence or shyness to become involved and as placing his duty before his personal interests. He also acts as the initial go-between in the attempt by Eudana and some of her fellows to trade the tech for stories, reporting it all to his superiors and then stepping back from the rest of the story involving the trade. That element of it is taken up primarily by Seska and B'Elanna, the ones who were teasing Harry eariler. Where Harry showed restraint, they show less or none.
At the same time, the other major aspect of the story is Janeway's relationship with Gath and Tuvok. This element somewhat implicitly revolves around Gath wanting Janeway and Janeway's own reticence to act. The suggestion being if she has sex with Gath he would allow them access to the technology in return. It's made clear that Gath isn't interested in long term relationships as those don't provide the pleasure he expects, so whatever he wants from Janeway is something temporary. So Janeway's initial attraction to Gath needed to be a bit more believable to give her decision more force, because once the notion of the exchange becomes more explicit, it will seem clearly extortionate and Gath too ugly to be taken seriously. For the trade off to be weighed as a believable possibility, we'd need Janeway's attraction to make more sense initially and for Gath's attitudes to be more reasonable, yet still at odds with her own. Making Gath so dishonest renders the decision too clear to the viewer on a romantic level, Gath obviously a slime ball, at the same time it obscures the second level concern attached to their relationship over Gath allowing them access to the tech if Gath is allowed access to Janeway.
With that obscured, it makes Tuvok's decision less understandable. If one assumes Tuvok sees the relationship as described, then he is acting more clearly on behalf of the captain in illicitly trading for the tech. Giving her an out while still accomplishing the same end result makes his actions a way to avoid sexual extortion to end up in the reasonable end result. It is, in a simplified form, like finding a way to get around paying a bribe in a culture that relies on bribery in a way. If your ethical protocols demand one not pay bribes and yet the culture you are dealing with demands them, then you are at an impasse, which is something of the suggestion here. Making that bribe a sexual demand makes it even more difficult an issue for both the characters and the viewers, which is why the writers reasonably seemed to want to keep it as subtext rather than make it the central focus of the episode. Having it spelled out more, well, nakedly, would likely lead to some uglier results from fans of the show. So choosing not to make it an episode just about their first female captain having to choose unwanted sex for 40,000 light years of travel was a good move in that way, while leaving it as a subtext was also worthwhile since it does give rise to a number of interesting questions and helped define the characters better.
Mulgrew continues to impress as Janeway. She has the occasional weaker scene sometimes, but finds a way to be consistent in Janeway's development that keeps the character making sense and as fitting the responsibility of the role. Her talks with Tuvok were particularly strong, and while the Gath one was a little more disappointing, a lot of that was due to the writers being too explicit in spelling out some of the ideas in play. The whole exchange about this being for their pleasure, not Voyager's was just too on the nose for me to enjoy, even as some of the arguments behind the ideas have some interest to them were they handled differently.
This episode seemed to bite off a bit more than it could comfortably swallow to make things really work. It was good to have so much of the crew involved, (though minimal Chakotay again wasn't great), but all those voices didn't' have enough time to fully develop the feel for the planet itself and the governing philosophy of their system. Something that needed doing to make the exchange debate matter more. In this, I'll again suggest that one of Voyager's biggest failings, though a really normal one for its time, was in not having better director's or showrunners involved to define a better look for the show. This keeps all these alien cultures lookng much too generic and doesn't allow for the kinds of shifts in tone that are needed to really make some of these alternative social orders to feel vivid enough to seem serious for the crew or the viewer. This is something I trust the new Trek will fix, given Fuller's initial involvement and the direction of television now, so that at least bodes well for them and should make it worth seeing. (Whether it'll be worth listening to is a separate question of course.)
posted by gusottertrout at 2:04 PM on February 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Anyway, I found more to like on this repeat viewing than I did the first time I watched the episode, even though some of the things that weren't so pleasing remained unsatisfying. Gath, in particular, wasn't handled as well as he should have been, which seems to go to both the writers and Guttman's performance. He was, as suggested, too unctuous to make the needed impression as a, at least initially, inviting possibility for romance with Janeway. The romantic angle seemed intended as something of an amplifier of the larger dilemma over acquiring the technology or making use of it to shorten Voyager's journey. In essence there was a Indecent Proposal subtext to the story, where Janeway's own personal morals are being matched against the crew's perspective on the Prime Directive and their own moral culpability.
This comes up early on when Seska, B'Elanna, and Paris are ribbing Harry about his date with one of the Delaney twins, the suggestion being that Harry's moral values are a bit too conservative compared to that of the others. This exchange sets the stage for Harry's later encounter with Eudana and his "discovery" of their spatial trajector technology. One can read Harry's actions in turning away from romantic possibilities after seeing the trajector in action both as being a comment on his own reticence or shyness to become involved and as placing his duty before his personal interests. He also acts as the initial go-between in the attempt by Eudana and some of her fellows to trade the tech for stories, reporting it all to his superiors and then stepping back from the rest of the story involving the trade. That element of it is taken up primarily by Seska and B'Elanna, the ones who were teasing Harry eariler. Where Harry showed restraint, they show less or none.
At the same time, the other major aspect of the story is Janeway's relationship with Gath and Tuvok. This element somewhat implicitly revolves around Gath wanting Janeway and Janeway's own reticence to act. The suggestion being if she has sex with Gath he would allow them access to the technology in return. It's made clear that Gath isn't interested in long term relationships as those don't provide the pleasure he expects, so whatever he wants from Janeway is something temporary. So Janeway's initial attraction to Gath needed to be a bit more believable to give her decision more force, because once the notion of the exchange becomes more explicit, it will seem clearly extortionate and Gath too ugly to be taken seriously. For the trade off to be weighed as a believable possibility, we'd need Janeway's attraction to make more sense initially and for Gath's attitudes to be more reasonable, yet still at odds with her own. Making Gath so dishonest renders the decision too clear to the viewer on a romantic level, Gath obviously a slime ball, at the same time it obscures the second level concern attached to their relationship over Gath allowing them access to the tech if Gath is allowed access to Janeway.
With that obscured, it makes Tuvok's decision less understandable. If one assumes Tuvok sees the relationship as described, then he is acting more clearly on behalf of the captain in illicitly trading for the tech. Giving her an out while still accomplishing the same end result makes his actions a way to avoid sexual extortion to end up in the reasonable end result. It is, in a simplified form, like finding a way to get around paying a bribe in a culture that relies on bribery in a way. If your ethical protocols demand one not pay bribes and yet the culture you are dealing with demands them, then you are at an impasse, which is something of the suggestion here. Making that bribe a sexual demand makes it even more difficult an issue for both the characters and the viewers, which is why the writers reasonably seemed to want to keep it as subtext rather than make it the central focus of the episode. Having it spelled out more, well, nakedly, would likely lead to some uglier results from fans of the show. So choosing not to make it an episode just about their first female captain having to choose unwanted sex for 40,000 light years of travel was a good move in that way, while leaving it as a subtext was also worthwhile since it does give rise to a number of interesting questions and helped define the characters better.
Mulgrew continues to impress as Janeway. She has the occasional weaker scene sometimes, but finds a way to be consistent in Janeway's development that keeps the character making sense and as fitting the responsibility of the role. Her talks with Tuvok were particularly strong, and while the Gath one was a little more disappointing, a lot of that was due to the writers being too explicit in spelling out some of the ideas in play. The whole exchange about this being for their pleasure, not Voyager's was just too on the nose for me to enjoy, even as some of the arguments behind the ideas have some interest to them were they handled differently.
This episode seemed to bite off a bit more than it could comfortably swallow to make things really work. It was good to have so much of the crew involved, (though minimal Chakotay again wasn't great), but all those voices didn't' have enough time to fully develop the feel for the planet itself and the governing philosophy of their system. Something that needed doing to make the exchange debate matter more. In this, I'll again suggest that one of Voyager's biggest failings, though a really normal one for its time, was in not having better director's or showrunners involved to define a better look for the show. This keeps all these alien cultures lookng much too generic and doesn't allow for the kinds of shifts in tone that are needed to really make some of these alternative social orders to feel vivid enough to seem serious for the crew or the viewer. This is something I trust the new Trek will fix, given Fuller's initial involvement and the direction of television now, so that at least bodes well for them and should make it worth seeing. (Whether it'll be worth listening to is a separate question of course.)
posted by gusottertrout at 2:04 PM on February 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
If one assumes Tuvok sees the relationship as described
Is that a safe assumption, though? IIRC he isn't present for at least some of the Gath Skeeving Out scenes, and I'm quite sure we never got a cutaway to Tuvok reacting in a "Get a load of this guy" sort of way. It would also track with the character, to a degree, if he just didn't quite pick up on it.
And not to overanalyze (hah!), but IF Tuvok did in fact completely miss the Gath-Janeway weirdness, not only does that make his under-the-table dealing more plausible, but it might even explain why Janeway's so pissed in the final scene; like, maybe she saw where the Gath thing might go, got pissed at herself for even trying to butter the guy up, and just when she thought she was gonna get away from this planet without any further entanglements, along comes this mini-mutiny that could've put her in a position to have to supplicate to Gath. So she takes it out on Tuvok and Torres. Maybe I'm reaching. Certainly, I doubt that was the writers' intent.
and while the Gath one was a little more disappointing, a lot of that was due to the writers being too explicit in spelling out some of the ideas in play.
Yeah, that's definitely something I remember about the series in general—though in fairness, not all the time. Even here, as you point out, the sex extortion (what do I call it, Kiff? "Sextortion") is only suggested, and it's a good thing too, because the scene where Janeway's trying to butter him up* is squicky enough as it is.
* = And re: Mulgrew's voice having an ASMR quality? I'm one of those for whom it has the opposite effect. At times—e.g. her "pecan piiie" line read—it's like nails on a chalkboard. Must be like how some people can only taste soap when they eat cilantro.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:48 AM on February 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Is that a safe assumption, though? IIRC he isn't present for at least some of the Gath Skeeving Out scenes, and I'm quite sure we never got a cutaway to Tuvok reacting in a "Get a load of this guy" sort of way. It would also track with the character, to a degree, if he just didn't quite pick up on it.
And not to overanalyze (hah!), but IF Tuvok did in fact completely miss the Gath-Janeway weirdness, not only does that make his under-the-table dealing more plausible, but it might even explain why Janeway's so pissed in the final scene; like, maybe she saw where the Gath thing might go, got pissed at herself for even trying to butter the guy up, and just when she thought she was gonna get away from this planet without any further entanglements, along comes this mini-mutiny that could've put her in a position to have to supplicate to Gath. So she takes it out on Tuvok and Torres. Maybe I'm reaching. Certainly, I doubt that was the writers' intent.
and while the Gath one was a little more disappointing, a lot of that was due to the writers being too explicit in spelling out some of the ideas in play.
Yeah, that's definitely something I remember about the series in general—though in fairness, not all the time. Even here, as you point out, the sex extortion (what do I call it, Kiff? "Sextortion") is only suggested, and it's a good thing too, because the scene where Janeway's trying to butter him up* is squicky enough as it is.
* = And re: Mulgrew's voice having an ASMR quality? I'm one of those for whom it has the opposite effect. At times—e.g. her "pecan piiie" line read—it's like nails on a chalkboard. Must be like how some people can only taste soap when they eat cilantro.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:48 AM on February 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I am with you completely on that last point.
The only thing I remember from this episode is "Pecan piiie"
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:52 AM on February 6, 2017
The only thing I remember from this episode is "Pecan piiie"
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:52 AM on February 6, 2017
Off-topic: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Voyager might never be released in HD (A.V. Club)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:54 AM on February 6, 2017
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:54 AM on February 6, 2017
It isn't so much that Tuvok would have to witness the interactions between Janeway and Gath, Janeway suggests the basis of their interactions strongly enough in a couple earlier scenes, the one where Harry explains the side deal being offered as a way to get Voyager the tech, where she largely accepts Harry's mention that Gath has no intention of helping them legitimately hinting he's after something else, and more to the point, in her private conversation with Tuvok, she gives indications of the values at stake, all of which suggest to me the idea that the two different tracks on which negotiations are taking place are intended as parallels that can be read together rather than as unconnected. Tuvok wouldn't need to know the full details for it to all fit thematically, it'd just need be accepted that he was able to put the pieces together, um, logically, and seek an out for Janeway that saves her from the weight of her personal ethical/moral negotiation interfering with Voyager's needs.
Tuvok misreads Janeway on this though, which is what triggers her anger/disappointment with Tuvok as she wasn't as conflicted as imagined and wanted from Tuvok the sort of trust in their relationship that she expressly couldn't find with Gath. (Nothing sexual, just the difference between immediacy and commitment in a sense.) By that reading, Janeway's final talk with Tuvok becomes something of a response to her "break-up" with Gath, and her disappointment is in Tuvok not seeing the basis of her rejection of Gath's proposal being something stronger than simply not being willing to sleep with him, making his actions misguided in his effort to give her an out. More or less...
posted by gusottertrout at 6:49 AM on February 6, 2017
Tuvok misreads Janeway on this though, which is what triggers her anger/disappointment with Tuvok as she wasn't as conflicted as imagined and wanted from Tuvok the sort of trust in their relationship that she expressly couldn't find with Gath. (Nothing sexual, just the difference between immediacy and commitment in a sense.) By that reading, Janeway's final talk with Tuvok becomes something of a response to her "break-up" with Gath, and her disappointment is in Tuvok not seeing the basis of her rejection of Gath's proposal being something stronger than simply not being willing to sleep with him, making his actions misguided in his effort to give her an out. More or less...
posted by gusottertrout at 6:49 AM on February 6, 2017
Not sure, but I think Voyager might have the worst episode titles in all of Trek—or at least the most frequently perplexing ones. The name "Prime Factors" does nothing to remind me of this story. That's why I'm unofficially renaming it "Pecan Pie." That's an association that never fails to work—in fact I think of this episode, and Janeway's calculated but smooth attempt to make a deal to exchange lit for tech, pretty much every time I see that particular dessert!
posted by obloquy at 11:18 PM on February 8, 2017
posted by obloquy at 11:18 PM on February 8, 2017
If I were going to offer up one treat to impress an alien with earth's cuisine, pecan pie would be one of the last options. It's so disgustingly sweet and has no depth at all.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:50 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:50 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
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The actor playing Gathorel, Ronald Guttman, is such a "hey, it's that guy" guy -- nothing on his IMDb page jumps out as being the thing that I recognize him from, and yet I've clearly been watching him working for decades.
posted by oh yeah! at 7:33 AM on February 2, 2017 [4 favorites]