Star Trek: Voyager: Prey   Rewatch 
October 19, 2017 2:59 AM - Season 4, Episode 16 - Subscribe

♫ You're on this hunt with me / The pickin's have been fine / And yet before this mission is over / You might just cross the line / You might defy your captain / She's one you don't betrayyy / And sooo the best that I can doooo / Iiiiis… ♫

To truly understand your fandom Wikia, you must observe its behavior under adversity:

- Episode writer Brannon Braga believed that the teleplay he wrote for this episode was "a very difficult script" for a typical director to execute.

- Brannon Braga was proud, however, of the turbulent way in which this episode develops the relationship between Seven of Nine and Janeway. "It was the best Janeway-Seven arc since her introduction," Braga declared. "It was great having them go head to head like that. With any luck, we left people wondering about their relationship at the end. The parent [is] raising the child, and the child is not turning out like the parent. Does that make the parent wrong? The child wrong, because they're being unreasonable? I hope it taps into some deeper issues about the parent-child relationship."

- Tony Todd (Alpha Hirogen) is better known for his recurring role of Kurn in Star Trek: The Next Generation. In Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, he not only appeared as that recurring character in the episode "Sons of Mogh" but also portrayed an alternate timeline adult Jake Sisko in DS9: "The Visitor".

- Though he called this episode a "great experience for me," Tony Todd did not enjoy wearing his Hirogen costume. "That turned out to be the most uncomfortable thing I ever did," he explained. "I had to wear this full bodied suit and the big decision for me on that show was [–] a half hour before they put me in the suit [–] if I had to go to the bathroom or whether I could hold it in until my scenes were done." His Hirogen makeup also tested Todd's endurance. The actor recalled, "Of all of the prosthetic work I've done, it was the most uncomfortable stint, playing that character. Not only was it a four-hour makeup process for the face, it was an hour-and-a-half costume application as well. I don't know if you've ever been in a situation where someone has to tell you to give them notice 20 minutes before you had to pee. It's hard to pee on demand. But I knew the makeup and costume looked effective. And I just wanted that triptych, to be able to be in all three of the shows."

- Seven of Nine actress Jeri Ryan cited this episode as one of her favorite episodes from the fourth season of Star Trek: Voyager, along with "The Gift", "The Killing Game" two-parter and "Hope and Fear".

- This was the first-aired Star Trek production that Allan Eastman directed. His work on this episode satisfied Brannon Braga, who said, "The director, Allan Eastman, took [the] script and made it look like a movie." He later directed DS9: "Honor Among Thieves" and VOY: "Relativity."

- Foundation staffer John Teska appreciated the unusualness of the shot that shows a member of Species 8472 exploring the exterior of Voyager. He remarked, "That was a fun shot [....] You know, there are certain shots that, for an animator, you just really look forward to. And that was one, because it's so rare to see this creature in a full screen shot, and then the whole idea that it's, you know, walking around the outside of the hull. It was also interesting because the camera does like a kind of weird bank into that shot, just kind of orienting itself to the creature on the side of the hull. So, you know, on several fronts, it was kind of a unique shot to get to do."


"I'm reading bones, muscle tissue from at least nine different species. It's all being broken down by some sort of enzyme."
"Perhaps this is their method of denaturating their prey."
"Either that or it's dinner."

- Chakotay and Tuvok


"You should know I'm a hologram and can't be bent, spindled, or mutilated, so don't bother trying."

- The Doctor


"I'm giving you an order. Report to deflector control and begin working on creating a singularity."
"I will not comply. I've agreed to remain on Voyager. I've agreed to function as a member of your crew; but I will not be a willing participant in my own destruction or the destruction of this ship."
"Objection noted, we'll do this without you."
"You will fail."
"And you have just crossed the line."

- Janeway and Seven of Nine


Poster's Log:
On rewatch, this episode helps me to like Seven a little more, mainly because she gets some good smackdown moments with Janeway. Beyond that, although it moves at a nice clip and has that truly memorable shot of the 8472 on the outer hull—I personally have a hard time really getting into it, for a couple of reasons. For one, it's evident by this point in the show's run that slam-bang action episodes are a favored approach by the producers, which is at minimum controversial in Trekdom; DS9 did it a lot too, but largely in the later seasons and (almost?) always in the service of a larger story arc with Themes and Resonance and stuff like that. Secondly, in this episode we're given little reason to care about Tony Todd's character and the 8472 individual, nor has the series so far given us much reason to care about their respective species. This episode might actually have been more interesting if it followed "The Killing Game." Certainly, the impact of the whole "ultimate hunter versus ultimate prey" thing they were going for would've* been stronger if we'd had more time to get to know both species. (* = Well, COULD've; the AvP movies had a whole Marvel-style cinematic universe as background and still managed to suck.)

Here, from the episode's MA page, is a "continuity note" that's so flagrantly editorial that I didn't want to include it above:
- Although Janeway lectures Seven of Nine here that "it is wrong to sacrifice another being to save our own lives," this is apparently a change of heart from the events of Season 2's "Tuvix", wherein Janeway forces Tuvix to sacrifice his life to restore those of Tuvok and Neelix. It is possible that the events of that episode led Janeway to reconsider her views on this point.

Poster's Log, Supplemental:
This appears to be Tony Todd's final Trek appearance—for now, anyway; there's a possibly-outdated note on his MA page about being on CBS's casting shortlist for DSC. In an episode later this season, watch for his Candyman co-star Virginia Madsen (one of VOY's more high-profile guest stars).
posted by CheesesOfBrazil (15 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
I have to agree about the missed opportunity; there are a lot of ways that this could have been done that would have upped the tension, including something that was implied in "Scorpion", that contact with an 8472 almost inevitably infected the contactee, and that without nanoprobe treatment, they might get taken over by the super-DNA and actually become an 8472 themselves, as Harry seemed to be in the process of becoming. You know, just like the Xenomorphs not only straight-up killed people but also squirreled them away to get implanted with facehuggers. There are some nice shots in this episode--the 8472 on the hull, the hole into space, when it jumped down from the warp core, the blood floating in the weightless corridor--but it all seemed surprisingly low-stakes. Having that bio-assimilation happen to one of the Hirogen also would have made the Alpha's determination to take it as a trophy seem that much more crazy, as well.

As for Seven vs. Janeway, it's practically a rite of initiation aboard the ship by now for a crewmember to go rogue and get Janeway's I Am So Disappointed In You Speech™, but I'm starting to wonder if Janeway has a coin in her ready room with "The Needs of the Many" on one side and "The Needs of the Few" on the other for some Two-Face-style decision making.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:32 AM on October 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


Particle of the Week: Borg nanoprobes, but I'd definitely let snark about it slide since it's actual continuity with regard to 8472.
Pointless STO Comparison of the Week: Prey is one of those most 'Star Trek Online' moments in any of the TV shows because it posits 'what would happen if these two alien races came into conflict?' (The MMO's general stance concurs with the episode: one of my favorite cutscenes with them involves them beating a massive Voth ship.)

Ongoing Counts: I didn't see anything that warranted changing this.
* Maximum Possible Photon Torpedoes: 17.
* Shuttles: Down 8.
* Crew: 141.
* Other: 46 bio-neural gelpacks remaining, maybe 25-50% of the escape pods should be gone at this point.
* Credulity Straining Alpha Quadrant Contacts: 9.
* Janeway's Big Red Button: 2 aborted self-destructs, 1 successful, 1 game of chicken, 1 ramming speed.

Notes:
* The Doctor coaching Seven on pleasantries was adorable.

I liked the idea of him really wanting to help her. Getting back to a prior complaint of mine, this is decent evidence for the idea that the Doctor is more special than a typical hologram because it suggests a rich internal life: he's demonstrating more empathy for Seven than Harry did, and being proactive about devising ways to help. It was a nice exchange, and a nice nod to 'he's a real boy.'

* So the Hirogen turn out to be stupid after all.

Last time, I'd forgotten the notes they downloaded from the Hirogen database here, about how they don't have any home planet and have no way of maintaining or replacing their extremely sophisticated technology. No resources, no infrastructure, just pots of face paint and tubs of flesh-denaturing enzyme to sustain warp-capable ships and super advanced weapons and armor.

The cherry on top is this notion that they regard other races as inferior, which implies they're not trading with anybody to get this stuff either. So, they make exactly zero sense upon elaboration. Grr, Voyager, grrr.

* The first half of this is pretty fun anyway.

The scene with the 8472 climbing on the outside of Voyager's hull is great. All the early stuff here works for me, really: finding out 8472 physically tore a Hirogen apart? Creepy. The Hirogen ship interior? Visually effective despite how dumb the backstory is, certainly moreso than last time. Hiring Tony Todd is yet another excellent Voyager casting success - he can sell the dumbest shit through sheer force of being Tony Todd. (Hearing that this was the most difficult set of prosthetics he's ever worn is fascinating given all the B-movie stuff he's been in.)

I also appreciated Seven actually being nervous and defensive because of her history with 8472 - in addition to being responsible for the destruction of millions of drones, 8472 is responsible for her no longer being *Borg*. She was only on Voyager due to Janeway's alliance. This is all very personal for her, and it was nice to see her upset about it.

Ryan's very good at what she does, and really, this episode gets off to a great start.

* The second half of this episode is hot garbage.

So, the Federation has some rock hard principles: peace, sanctity of life, non-interference and so on. The Hirogen way of life is antithetical to those principles in exactly the way that Janeway proposed when she called off the hunt here.

However, the Federation tempers those principles with some pragmatism. At the end of the day, they're allied with the Klingons and have neutrality with both Cardassia and the Romulans. All three major powers are militaristic, expansionist and engage in either open or implicit slavery. Cutting a deal with the Hirogen is absolutely acceptable Starfleet policy under the circumstances, especially since Tony Todd is hunting a being with no prior political agreement or common cause with Voyager. This doesn't quite fall under 'internal conflict,' but it's pretty close - this is really none of Voyager's business either way, at least not once they verify that the 8472 isn't part of a fresh invasion force.

Moreover, the 8472 didn't ask for asylum or alliance. It ripped a hole in the hull and tried to commandeer the ship with the intention of taking Voyager into fluidic space to get home - they caught it headed to deflector control, which is where singularities happen. If it had succeeded in taking Voyager through one, its people would have wanted to kill everyone, especially in light of the events in Scorpion. It's true the creature didn't kill B'Ellana or the others, but that's still how this would've probably gone down if it had succeeded in its plan.

It came aboard as a hostile intruder, and it *chose* to do that even though it had the ability to communicate with Tuvok, Vorik or any other crewman with even a hint of telepathic aptitude. It had the option to negotiate at any time and did not do so until it was out of options.

So Janeway broke a verbal agreement that could've saved Voyager in order to 'rescue' a member of a species that was last seen attempting to cleanse the entire galaxy of all life, and was itself dying anyway, at least as far as they knew. She had no endgame here either - while she might have been able to get the 8472 home, that would've both exposed Voyager to the risk of bioship attack and left her no bargaining chip to fend off the impending Hirogen attack. If her plan had succeeded, Voyager would've been toast, period.

This was suicide.

Her attempt to justify the whole thing to Seven was nonsensical too - her story about saving the wounded Cardassian didn't have any practical followup. There's no message about 'and then the Cardassian and I became penpals' or 'we were able to trade a live POW for some of our own people.' Nothing that Seven could be expected to understand. Just 'I, Kathryn Janeway, felt better about myself after showing kindness to a guy who would've murdered me without blinking, and my experience is universal.'

It's a bad argument, which is a long-running theme with her trying to explain the human condition to Seven: Seven will ask 'why are we doing this?' and Janeway will attempt emotional appeals that don't resonate with her. If their relationship is supposed to be parent/child, Janeway's not a very good mom.

Seven was right to call bullshit on the whole thing. The resolution where Janeway punishes Seven for this isn't any better - Seven's got her number here too, correctly assessing that Janeway's just pissed Seven didn't fall into line. Her quick thinking saved the entire ship, and this is another case of Janeway taking command decisions deeply personally.

Janeway comes across as more than a little creepy here too: she loves calling Voyager's crew a family, but she press-ganged Seven. Seven has exactly two choices in life: serve on the crew and follow orders, or be confined to the cargo bay until they reach Earth. She's no longer obsessed with returning to the Collective, but it's pretty clear she has no option to simply jump ship at the next port of call and figure her own shit out now that she's reasonably recovered.

So... yeah. I enjoyed this one right up until Janeway went off the rails and called off the hunt, then I was annoyed enough to write almost all of this review last night before bed, because ARGH. Heh.

Also:
I'm starting to wonder if Janeway has a coin in her ready room with "The Needs of the Many" on one side and "The Needs of the Few" on the other for some Two-Face-style decision making.

Yep. That is a very reasonable notion in light of her decisions here.

For one, it's evident by this point in the show's run that slam-bang action episodes are a favored approach by the producers, which is at minimum controversial in Trekdom; DS9 did it a lot too, but largely in the later seasons and (almost?) always in the service of a larger story arc with Themes and Resonance and stuff like that.

Yeah. I love a good action episode, but the Voyager team seems to think it's a substitute for thinking a plot through.
posted by mordax at 9:01 AM on October 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


Weird episode in the amount of odd ideas bandied about and in how they set them up and dramatize the conflicts. Braga, again, shows he can pack an episode with more action than any other writer for the show, with this feeling almost like another two parter as he's done before. He really likes to mix exposition into dramatic moments or conflict, which is really effective and somehow even serves to provide more information than the exposition delivered separately often does. The take Hirogen culture Chakotay delivers, for example, is the sort of detail the characters should be seeking and discussing on the species they meet, even if the concept of the Hirogen doesn't quite work for what we see of them. A nomadic hunting based culture would require their social networks to travel with them, so we should see more evidence of their complete societal structure, with women and children traveling with the hunters. (That's setting aside whether a space hunting culture makes sense given the tech needs they'd have, but whatever the case there needed to be more of the society shown for the description to make any sense.)

The initial disagreement between Seven and Janeway, while efficient and dramatic, doesn't really work for me. Seven's attitude is too aggressive given the situation from what we've seen of her so far, and it happening on the bridge without much comment is a bit off too. Seven really has no reason to be on the bridge there, but we can call it a coincidence and let that slide. Had her challenge of Janeway been more analytical in its questioning, then it might have worked, but the defiance at that point, when the ship they see is disabled and Seven's confident superiority in play, is too much. The tone of the challenge would be worthy of rebuke given the reasonably low stakes of the moment, but even were that to be given a pass, there is little reason Seven would be so forceful in her disagreement since the threat was minimal and Seven usually doesn't evince strong emotions even in far worse situations.

Questioning the decision makes sense, but the way it played was too strong. It also makes Seven's later defiance seem less related to concerns about Species 8472 and the best way to handle the problems and more a problem with Janeway personally that feels like it came from something before the episode. Given the ending, perhaps that was the intent, but if that's so it needed a different and better build up since the first conflict between them is also about ship security and not just choices. Starting the show with Seven getting the doctor's help on integrating into the crew also works a bit against the idea that the difference between Seven and Janeway has been on Seven's mind prior to the episode.

Braga again shows the crew doing their jobs pretty well, giving them those little bits of action that make them all seem competent and involved, something the other writers often overlook, which makes the breakdowns in ship functions seem all the more egregious and the crew borderline incompetent. Braga actually seems to care a little about how the ship would work and makes that fit into the way they handle events. There are still plenty of questionable actions at times of course, but they don't stick out as much as when those are the only kinds of actions the crew takes or the ship endures.

The decisions Janeway makes seem to be pretty consistent with the norms of the other captains and Starfleet ideals, her explanations of them though are not the best. Even more the decisions are certainly consistent with Janeway's attitude of defiance towards threats even to the point of possible destruction.

The analogy would be something like someone wounded fleeing from a gang breaking into your house, the gang threatens you and your family unless you turn over the injured person they want to kill. Strategically it might make sense to turn them over if it means you would be safe, but morally it means sending a person to their likely death for your own benefit. That isn't anything any of the Starfleet captains we've seen would do willingly. They certainly would act in their own self defense, even if that meant killing the intruder to prevent harm, but in a situation where the intruder no longer presented a clear threat, then turning them over is acting to abet murder. Opening a singularity was the best option since species 8472 had no ship to return to nor other means of escape that could have been easily effected, and once the Hirogen attacked, then it was a matter of defending the ship, including the "prisoner" rather than turning him over to the would be lynch mob. It's a standard western trope given added difficulty here with no way to hold a fair trial or contain the prisoner or to hand him over to the proper authorities.

The initial encounter with the disabled Hirogen ship too was pretty standard in how it was handled, with only Seven's disagreement really suggesting otherwise. Injured party on a potential enemy ship would always be given aid unless there was a direct self defense need to act otherwise. Seven challenging that ideal, and our knowledge of the Hirogen and Species 8472, makes that seem risky, which it would always potentially be, but it isn't at all out of line for a Starfleet vessel to do. The arguments then work more to highlight the risks in these protocols or values, making the viewer question them as security issues, which places a potential cost or contrast to the moral issues involved in a way that the shows don't normally face since the crew doesn't aggressively contradict the captain in those circumstances.

The more usual seeming route is to have the question raised about the safety by the security chief or second in command, the captain act anyway, and then the situation is resolved showing the wisdom of the captain's decision. Here though the decision is countermanded against Janeway's orders, so there is no moral resolution to be used as evidence of the better choice, only an ambiguous result that ends the threat with an unknown cost involved. They live, but they sacrificed someone to do it, to whom they had promised safe return to their home. Not an ideal outcome. Keeping their word and protecting the ship with Species 8472 may of course had led to their destruction, but we don't see that either, so it too is an ambiguity.

Not resolving the conflict leaves both possibilities "open" in a way that is itself relatively uncommon for the shows, not, though, unheard of. Charlie X has something of a similar no win situation for TOS for example, and I gather DS9 has some as well. Those situations may not have interpersonal conflict added on however, where the challenge to the captain remains unresolved past the end of the episode. It's that element here that makes this episode sort of stand out in an odd way since it places Seven on something like a possible equal footing to the captain should one hold her argument having merit, or even being stronger than Janeway's. That is tricky to handle and I'm not sure the show does right by it here, feeling more like giving the new popular character too much credit and importance just because they're popular as much as anything, not unlike Wolverine showing up in every goddamn Marvel comic and being central to every major conflict once he became hot shit. I'll have to see where this goes from here, if anywhere, over the next few episodes since it's all a bit vague as to the way it plays out in time.

I can't quite say I really liked this episode, but can't quite say I didn't either since so much of it is tied to the argument between Seven and Janeway which wasn't presented in its best possible form. I'm not sure how much of that is consciously being modeled on something like a parent teen relationship, but Janeway's manner of addressing the issue wasn't entirely convincing as argument, even as the decision seemed pretty much standard Starfleet, which makes it all feel a bit shakier than I imagine it should.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:37 AM on October 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


Sorry, I keep forgetting, that should have read, no other captain besides Lorca, since he'd likely turn over Species 8472 to the Hirogen in a heartbeat if he thought it was a benefit to his ship.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:53 AM on October 20, 2017


That is tricky to handle and I'm not sure the show does right by it here, feeling more like giving the new popular character too much credit and importance just because they're popular as much as anything, not unlike Wolverine showing up in every goddamn Marvel comic and being central to every major conflict once he became hot shit. I'll have to see where this goes from here, if anywhere, over the next few episodes since it's all a bit vague as to the way it plays out in time.

I remember thinking this on previous VOY run-throughs, but IIRC, I wouldn't say the series goes TOO far down that road ultimately. I would say it went just far enough for me to notice it and find it annoying (though less annoying than UPN's prurient targeting of 14-year-old boys).

However, in THIS instance, I was pretty much OK with it, because (1) Seven's objections make perfect sense coming from her, and (2) the Janeway smackdown factor.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:24 AM on October 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


You're probably right on that as I suspect I'm adding in how much Seven will be in the show instead of just viewing this in context of her arrival to the series as it plays out. Sort of a split between a first viewing and rewatch in that way.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:08 AM on October 20, 2017


Oh, and a couple other little nitpicky things. How did the Species 8472 creature end up in Hirogen space? Voyager got that Kes boost that took them far from where the conflict was occurring. And second I'd like it better if they didn't end episodes saying we'll meet these guys again. It's happened both times they've come across the Hirogen and it's annoying.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:21 AM on October 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


It's that element here that makes this episode sort of stand out in an odd way since it places Seven on something like a possible equal footing to the captain should one hold her argument having merit, or even being stronger than Janeway's. That is tricky to handle and I'm not sure the show does right by it here, feeling more like giving the new popular character too much credit and importance just because they're popular as much as anything, not unlike Wolverine showing up in every goddamn Marvel comic and being central to every major conflict once he became hot shit.

I also feel like the writing staff seems semi-burnt-out at this point; they're still writing decent Doctor episodes and have Tom and B'Elanna's romance going forward, but the rest of the crew is going to get relatively short shrift from this point on. (For example, Harry's best episode in the rest of the series is "Timeless", and that's really an alternate future version of him.) Some of the let's-feature-Seven-in-every-episode may simply be that new character smell not having worn off yet, and that's not always for the best--I haven't rewatched the next episode yet, but there are some people who have found it problematic, to put it mildly. But I also think that we're seeing the effects of not having very well thought through character arcs for all the characters. Those arcs don't have to be thought through all the way (on DS9, O'Brien's was basically "let's mess with his head", although he'd already had a lot of development on TNG), and they can also change substantially with new developments, i.e. Bashir's character retcon and dealings with Section 31. But they at least give some direction in how to move forward with a character; Seven has that, so does the Doctor, so do Tom and B'Elanna as a couple (more so than them as individuals, IMO). Not so much the rest of the crew.

How did the Species 8472 creature end up in Hirogen space? Voyager got that Kes boost that took them far from where the conflict was occurring.

IKR? It's really another Amelia Earhart problem. It could have been solved with a brief line about how the 8472 tracked them because it thought that they were the only way back to fluidic space. Of course, then that would be a reminder that Species 8472 is pretty damn powerful, to the point that even a wounded individual in a scout-sized ship should have been able to blow the pursuing Hirogen out of space.

And second I'd like it better if they didn't end episodes saying we'll meet these guys again. It's happened both times they've come across the Hirogen and it's annoying.

Agreed, especially as we've seen (and will see more) instances where something really wasn't followed up on.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:05 AM on October 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


Some of the let's-feature-Seven-in-every-episode may simply be that new character smell not having worn off yet, and that's not always for the best--I haven't rewatched the next episode yet, but there are some people who have found it problematic, to put it mildly.

Crap, I didn't even realize that one was so soon. I thought it occurred in a later season. I was definitely one of the haters on my first watch. I considered it the single worst episode of any Trek I'd seen for the idea and execution of it. We'll see if I like it any better this time around, but I gotta say I'm not looking forward to rewatching it.

I also feel like the writing staff seems semi-burnt-out at this point

I kind of agree with you, though maybe not in the term burnt-out as if they'd spent so much quality time on Harry and Chakotay up until now. My thinking is more that they wrote themselves into a corner with some of the crew and that, matched with UPN's demands left them without much idea how to move forward with the characters.

They have such a limited cast and little on-going story opportunities that they have difficulty developing major changes in the characters, so they go back to relying on the hats they had on when they rode into the show. Chakotay suffers particularly given the unmasking of Jackie Marks, aka Jamake Hightower, as a fraud. That gutted his Indigenous peoples character sheet concepts, the Janeway romance could never really develop without causing harm to her character, and they never really took up the Maquis stuff, so he doesn't have much else to fall back on unless they added something new, which they don't really do much of. They rely so strongly on backstory that new development tends to only be seen as coming from history, so since the doctor and Seven have room to grow from their histories they keep getting stuff while they struggle to find a hook for Chakotay.

Harry is much the same, they have the failed romance guy thing, his infatuation with Seven, or alleged infatuation since it doesn't play, is a dead end as the characters don't match up at all. Had they kept Kes, maybe that could have worked for a romance since they had enough commonalities in lack of experience and idealism that could conflict to get some mileage out of the pairing, but that only points back to the problem of limited cast size making romances have to be between the leads, which is kinda icky since it always makes the women in the cast mate material as a sort of primary function. If the letters from home thing had Harry finding out his parents died while he's been away, or something else that could initiate some personality change, then that might have helped, but the limited amount of things they can show the crew doing doesn't give much room to explore that possibility either. Harry gets to push for officer experience and grow a little that way, but they only occasionally find reasons to make use of that idea, and not for the best really.

Tuvok's too developed, comfortable in his Vulcaness and married, so they can't really "develop" him much, though he still gets some more good stuff ahead. And Neelix does too, mostly in more of a caretaking assisting role, possibly not what they'd hoped for with him, but it isn't bad and he does develop more enjoyably than most of the crew. (It undoubtedly helps that he started from the lowest rung, so moving upwards wasn't as difficult I suppose.)

Anyway, I completely agree that they didn't think through the character arcs very well and seem to have reached a dry spot with some of them, which does likely make the doctor and Seven more attractive characters to write for.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:54 AM on October 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


That isn't anything any of the Starfleet captains we've seen would do willingly.

Sure they would. Leaving aside evil Admirals, we have:

* Captive Pursuit. An alien of one species is being hunted by another. This is somewhat different in that Tosk specifically refuses asylum to protect the station, but they agreed to let the hunters take him under protest. (Well, not all of them did, but it was certainly Federation policy to step aside even though the hunt took place within their jurisdiction.)

* I Borg features Captain Picard plotting genocide against a hated enemy using a helpless POW until his bartender talks him out of it. The Admiralty is unhappy with his decision, and this incident may even be why Janeway is promoted to their ranks ahead of him. I realize that's a flip way of framing it, but that's what happened.

* The Chute: Janeway is willing to kidnap and sell members of the Open Sky movement in exchange for the safe return of Tom and Harry. She has zero legal jurisdiction to do that, and is comfortable consigning strangers to lifetime imprisonment when she knows they will not receive appropriate due process or humane treatment. She does this without understanding the political situation herself.

* Scorpion. Janeway helps the Borg survive. It's a purely pragmatic decision to save the ship, but even she describes it as a deal with the Devil - she could've let them duke it out, or even just permitted 8472 to hurt the Borg worse before helping.

* The upcoming Equinox storyline. Lorca's not new - the scenario parallels Discovery in any number of ways, and Janeway doesn't step out of that entirely clean.

And... eh. I'm perfectly capable of going on. If we add in Evil Admirals, the list of stuff a decorated Starfleet officer might be willing to do gets pretty bad, pretty fast. Starfleet captains get up to some shit, even heroic ones. Sometimes it's personal, sometimes it's policy and sometimes they just have no better options, but it's part of the job.

In Janeway's case, these decisions are typically about her feelings. Her discussion of the Cardassian makes it plain: she doesn't talk about the value of life, she talks about why the decision was right for her. I think this is part of why her decision making is so inconsistent.

It's the same thing that happened when they were discussing an alliance with the Kazon, too: from a Federation policy standpoint, there were acceptable compromises to be had. However, Maj Cullah was a misogynistic, boundary-pushing pig and he really got under her skin, so she summarily nixed the whole thing.

Here, Tony Todd's actions bothered her personally. Seven's actions bothered her personally too.

They could have provided the moral dilemma you suggest if the 8472 had remained conscious a whole 30 seconds longer and promised them 'take me home and I promise you'll be safe.' They never established that: Janeway promised to return it home at her own discretion, and they still had to keep it contained behind a force field. If the 8472 had, for example, cooperated and helped them establish the singularity, this would've been a proper debate.

It also would've been acceptable to stand down when the ship was sufficiently damaged - Federation ships have been known to surrender rather than fighting to the last every single time. Even if Janeway had admitted, 'yeah we would've been destroyed, but better than than the alternative,' it would've been okay with me. She pretends like she could've gotten them out of this, and that's crazy talk. She couldn't have.

The writers *wanted* the scenario you're proposing, and I bet anybody here could've fixed the script with ten minutes and a red pen, but they didn't pull it off.

Of course, then that would be a reminder that Species 8472 is pretty damn powerful, to the point that even a wounded individual in a scout-sized ship should have been able to blow the pursuing Hirogen out of space.

Yeah. The fan answer is simply this: a Borg vessel could've gone that far, and 8472 had superior technology. Of course one of their scout ships has transwarp, it would need that for, well, scouting.

However, my personal feeling is that the writers just forgot about The Gift. IIRC, we'll see more evidence of that later on, too.

Anyway, I completely agree that they didn't think through the character arcs very well and seem to have reached a dry spot with some of them, which does likely make the doctor and Seven more attractive characters to write for.

That's where I'm at with this.
posted by mordax at 10:21 AM on October 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


I should have been more clear I was just talking about the Starfleet captain heroes we see, since they're the characters expected to resolve situations under certain sets of rules. There certainly can be counter examples we don't see or who aren't heroic to hold as counters, but that too is just part of the standard plot dynamic.

In each of the episodes you mention, save for Captive Pursuit somewhat, the ethical or moral dilemma are outwardly similar, but have different imperatives involved from the pop culture moral code.

In Captive Pursuit the issue is first complicated by Tosk refusing sanctuary under his moral code, then secondly by Sisko turning a blind eye to allowing O'Brien to help effect his escape. The resolution is not compromised simply due to Sisko claiming he'd release Tosk to the hunters, his actions or inactions abetting Tusks escape allow the claim to be overridden by the result. As long as the end avoids the cowardice of saving oneself by sacrificing another directly and by choice, then the situation is settled according to acceptable rules.

The earlier DS9 episode with the escaped IRA member Bajoran resistance fighter is also a close match. There Sisko refuses to hand over the Bajoan fighter to the Cardassians once he claims asylum, even to the point of having DS9 threatened with destruction. When it turns out the Bajoran is still acting as a terrorist, Sisko finds away to both put have him face justice and avoid sending him to certain torture and death at the hands of the Cardassians.

Picard goes apeshit a couple times, but is talked out of acting in the unacceptable manner in the end, consistent with the principle that if the end result satisfies certain moral conditions, then however it is reached is fine, with added conflict being even more desirable as that increases the stakes, making the "decision" harder, though still almost inevitable within certain bounds.

The Chute only narrowly makes it, and that's due to the Open Sky movement being a terrorist organization that was going to allow Tom and Harry to die and the government not being interested in getting the real terrorists, content to kill Tom and Harry instead. So the end passes, no matter how stupidly it gets there since Janeway ultimately didn't turn over the Open Sky siblings. Janeway gets a little added leeway by the rule that preventing the direct (not collateral) sacrifice of friends/main cast members is the highest priority, unless the friends manage to somehow sacrifice themselves in a manner that alleviates the responsibility from the hero making the decision. The writing that episode sucked when it came to making the Open Sky/government conflict make sense, but the rule wasn't ultimately violated though obviously threatened.

Scorpion is a Voyager getting involved in a war between two other parties, Janeway makes a decision to help the Borg, but doesn't have to follow through with it completely given the additional circumstances introduced, but even as such the decision to help the Borg against the invading species isn't a violation of the rule of sacrifice since Species 8472 was the bigger threat at the moment and the collaboration didn't proceed along the Borg's desired lines. Voyager was able to sorta screw both parties while sorta helping them and sorta being ridiculous with the ginned up conflict added to spice up the drama. Voyager wasn't responsible for Species 8472 as they are with the creature in this episode, so they didn't owe Species 8472 their protection as they do the creature here. That doesn't mean there wasn't all sorts of what the hell? going on in Scorpion, just that the moral code wasn't violated in the end.

I agree with you about much of the dynamics of how they play out the decision making process, but they do still play by certain outcome driven rules that mandate the limits of what can be done by the laws of popular culture heroes, and turning over a wounded "civilian" for execution by one's own accord simply doesn't fit.

Much of the time there will be complications that allow the situation to be resolved without the decision being made or, once the decision is seemingly made for it to be stopped from being enacted, or once enacted something to allow the consequences to be avoided since that's how pop culture rolls. Anti-heroes can get away with more, but straight up murder of an "innocent" is still usually not par for the course, and that's what Janeway would have been allowing here. That it's a member of Species 8472 is just window dressing to make the decision look tougher. Had they altered the circumstances a bit Janeway could have made other decisions in keeping with the rules as you suggest, like fighting to the point of surrender rather than be destroyed, though the Hirogen aren't really a group one would surrender to since you're liable to end up a trophy instead, or give the creature a shuttle if it wanted one, or many other things, but they wanted Seven to go rogue, again, so this is what we got.

That Seven usurped Janeway's role and acted on her own (something that has some interesting echoes with Michael's mutiny) is an interesting little spin on the idea since it does implicate Seven in the "civilian's" likely murder, but as a member of the Borg who has not yet fully assimilated into human/Starfleet/heroic conditions yet, that isn't a fatal flaw since she's been involved in the kidnapping and murder of millions already, tainting her judgment and skewing her relative position in regards to the viewer towards one still needing to learn, a source of conflict for the captain, rather than equal partner in responsibility.

I think you're right that the writers have forgotten The Gift, or at least don't think about it much.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:18 PM on October 20, 2017 [3 favorites]


I agree with you about much of the dynamics of how they play out the decision making process, but they do still play by certain outcome driven rules that mandate the limits of what can be done by the laws of popular culture heroes, and turning over a wounded "civilian" for execution by one's own accord simply doesn't fit.

You're right about the 'pop culture morality' thing, which is part of what I'm complaining about, I suppose. I take ethics pretty seriously as a thing, and it's my feeling Star Trek normally does too: TOS, TNG and DS9 have all featured some fascinated and layered problems. Not every time, but many of their best outings are complex. Despite my glib characterization, I Borg contains some really good discussion about what the correct course of action is that comes at the topic from a number of different angles.

Voyager's doing the Hollywood thing here instead: the hero is doing what superficially looks right without any real introspection, debate or concern about the consequences. I'm very fond of calling Voyager lazy, but the way this issue is handled in Prey is lazy, and so I object.

And again, I think you're right about what they wanted to do. I'd argue you've put more and better thought into this than anybody credited on the script is all. :)

That Seven usurped Janeway's role and acted on her own (something that has some interesting echoes with Michael's mutiny) is an interesting little spin on the idea since it does implicate Seven in the "civilian's" likely murder, but as a member of the Borg who has not yet fully assimilated into human/Starfleet/heroic conditions yet, that isn't a fatal flaw since she's been involved in the kidnapping and murder of millions already, tainting her judgment and skewing her relative position in regards to the viewer towards one still needing to learn, a source of conflict for the captain, rather than equal partner in responsibility.

We're seeing that from very different angles.

The thing I always keep in mind with Seven is that she's been coerced. Indeed, she's never not been coerced: her parents brought her to the Delta Quadrant as a child, and she couldn't weigh in. She was assimilated and brainwashed, so she's literally starting from a place where she had to learn how to chew food again. Now, she's in Janeway's protective custody whether she likes it or not: she can't leave. All she can do is play along or wait in the cargo bay.

Their efforts to integrate her are pretty weak, with the notable exceptions of Chakotay, Tuvok and the Doctor. I mean, she hasn't had counseling, and everybody laughs off Harry's skeevy inappropriate advances toward her. Janeway is either unable or unwilling to relate to her on her terms.

We can argue back and forth about whether the 8472 is a legitimate POW or not, but Seven is absolutely a civilian in this scenario herself. She can't be expected to participate in a suicide mission the way that a trained soldier would. Her decision to protect herself from a superior military force and a space monster she's terrified of is completely reasonable under the circumstances.

Janeway coming down on her was just a way to lose her trust at this juncture.

Moreover, I'm hard on Janeway about it because this is a pattern on Voyager: she gave the Maquis a similarly coercive choice in S1, when there were options like 'civilian contractor' status.

Also: this is fun to pick at, thanks. :)
posted by mordax at 1:47 PM on October 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


The thing I always keep in mind with Seven is that she's been coerced. Indeed, she's never not been coerced: her parents brought her to the Delta Quadrant as a child, and she couldn't weigh in. She was assimilated and brainwashed, so she's literally starting from a place where she had to learn how to chew food again. Now, she's in Janeway's protective custody whether she likes it or not: she can't leave. All she can do is play along or wait in the cargo bay.


Yes, this is true and the thing that worked to make the episode click even if the decision to act against Janeway is debatable. It's exactly what I was thinking of in saying there were echoes of Michael's mutiny, the defiance and purpose of that defiance is roughly similar, but the place it comes from differs given Seven's "volunteer" status as a crew member and lack of choice as to being on the ship in the first place. That's what gives the conflict between her and Janeway the added boost and keeps it from becoming an actual mutiny in the same way as it was for Georgiou and Burnham.

In the final scene I personally found Janeway's position to be unimpeachable in terms of the process, but Seven's rejoinder framing her time on Voyager around her perspective of allowing/deciding what to accept being a nicely radical close up on what makes her different from the rest of the crew and how things might look from the "outside". I don't think Seven's right about Janeway being "afraid" or really in how Seven has chosen to use the events as a measure of individuality since Seven would understand hierarchy and the importance of command structure even if she might not agree on the balance of that versus individual initiative, and she clearly knew what she was doing went against Janeway by locking the bridge out, making it Seven choosing for everyone as if she was in command instead of just acting as an individual alone for only her own interests. That those two things are incompatible tells us something about the problems on individuality versus organizational command systems which can't be entirely reconciled.

All the actions of the episode are built around stressing the conflict between those points of view, which, in how that's dramatized, makes the best part of the episode. How the arguments are verbally presented though is weak, Janeway's side more so, but Seven too is more generalized than makes sense. It comes across as a parent/teen debate in terms of attitude, Janeway being patronizing and emotional in her appeals and Seven being rebellious and reductive in her responses. It isn't the two of them at their best in terms of argument, but fits their relationship well enough for what's been built of it so far. I'm still not sure though how well I think that works for the show overall though since it does rely on both characters acting in ways that aren't placing events in sufficient context.

And as always I also enjoy these little debates, the discussion itself is more involved or thoughtful than the show much of the time, so it only adds to the viewings, and all the more so where perspectives don't totally align since those are the areas most interesting to look at. It isn't as if we'll ever be able to make all the things in Voyager make perfect sense given there wasn't much sense put into much of it at the start, but the attempt still is worth while for reflecting on how it and other shows like it work for their audiences.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:43 PM on October 20, 2017 [3 favorites]


It just occurred to me that another thing that makes this episode interesting is that it's Braga's variation on Day of Honor. That episode had the space panhandlers threatening Voyager's destruction unless they turned over Seven, along with other supplies. Seven volunteered to be sent to the Caatati willingly, but that offer was refused by Janeway. Species 8472 are, roughly, to the Borg as the Borg are to the Caatati, so there is some parallel in the relationships established, but switched around. In both episodes Seven is the one that provides the "solution" to the problem, in the first by aligning with Janeway and the second by defying her. The stakes in each are, again roughly, similar, with the threat to the ship and crew seemingly only avoidable by giving over a now civilian/once "monster" to face almost certain death. The reactions shift sue to Seven's relative position in each episode, which can be taken where you will.

This also reminds me of something further about Janeway's risk taking attitude and Seven's analytical side, where Janeway allowing Seven free access to the ship is itself a real risk as witnessed by the several different occasions Seven has been able to take control of ship systems and act according to her own wishes even as that may put Voyager in danger or work against the bridge and Janeway's own desires. It's that kind of decision making that suggests "fear" over individual choice or difference of values isn't causing the underlying tension between Seven and Janeway at least in regards to safety, but possibly may have some truth in regards to Janeway's belief in her values.

The real "threat" Seven poses by that measure of events is in showing Janeway her faith in "higher values" is misguided, something that would indeed potentially be difficult for Janeway to accept given how much she relies on that base for making her decisions. I don't think the episode denies or affirms either character in that regard, although in the long run Janeway's values are largely reaffirmed, but it does question the premise of making choices along those lines, even if it doesn't supply an easy answer to that questioning.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:38 AM on October 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


Meant to get back to this sooner. I'm now waiting for Discovery to finish coming down so I can get to that for the week, and realized I hadn't responded.

It isn't as if we'll ever be able to make all the things in Voyager make perfect sense given there wasn't much sense put into much of it at the start, but the attempt still is worth while for reflecting on how it and other shows like it work for their audiences.

Yeah, this is a lot of my interest, and why I'm particularly fascinated when and how we disagree, particularly since - for the most part - we pick up on a lot of the same details but interpret and value them differently.
posted by mordax at 7:28 PM on October 22, 2017


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