Hannibal: Mizumono
May 23, 2014 10:14 PM - Season 2, Episode 13 - Subscribe

The teapot comes together in this season's finale.
posted by whorl (283 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite

BEDELIA NO!
posted by yellowbinder at 10:24 PM on May 23, 2014 [10 favorites]

Bryan Fuller's AV Club interview for this week (some minor book-type spoilers, etc.) has helped me process/mourn/grieve/whatever.

I don't know how I'm going to handle waiting almost a year for next season.
posted by Gymnopedist at 10:42 PM on May 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

CRAZED CANNIBAL SCREAMING
posted by elizardbits at 11:00 PM on May 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

Okay so here is the thing I am thinking: Beverly didn't see a horrible basement full of serial killer trophies, did she. Because as a federal forensic investigator she would not be so shocked by that. SHE SAW ABIGAIL LIVING IN THE BASEMENT DIDN'T SHE.

didnt sheeeeeeee
posted by elizardbits at 11:01 PM on May 23, 2014 [22 favorites]

GOOD TIMES.
posted by eyeballkid at 11:08 PM on May 23, 2014

also i assumed the plane scene was going to be the one where the whiny kid asks hannibal what he's eating and hannibal is like NEVER EAT THAT SWILL HERE HAVE SOME HUMANBITS and then bedelia happened and oh my god help

I'm wondering how he even got on the plane, like, when the ambulances/cops roll in and see gee 4 attempted (I'm optimistic) murders here in Hannibal's house can't they somehow prevent him from leaving the country via air???
posted by Gymnopedist at 11:12 PM on May 23, 2014

Prolly Bedelia and he have extremely high quality fake papers and she had a getaway car waiting but idk it could have been ~*CANNIBAL MAGICKS*~
posted by elizardbits at 11:14 PM on May 23, 2014 [7 favorites]

Wow.
posted by homunculus at 11:20 PM on May 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

*tick* *tick* *tick* *tick* *BOOOOM*
posted by h00py at 11:21 PM on May 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

~*CANNIBAL MAGICKS*~

ah yes
posted by Gymnopedist at 11:22 PM on May 23, 2014

Yes, I think it was Abigail that Bev saw. Then that reveal was mirrored in Alana's reaction to seeing Abigail. Man, don't trust deaths on this show unless you see a whole and completely identifiable body.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:25 PM on May 23, 2014 [4 favorites]

Man, don't trust deaths on this show unless you see a whole and completely identifiable body.

Still holdin' out on Chilton.
posted by Gymnopedist at 11:33 PM on May 23, 2014 [7 favorites]

It's weird, for all the gore and grand guignol (a phrase more or less invented for this fucking show), the image that most freaked me out is the same one that freaked my shit in the first episode of the season: Hannibal repeatedly flinging himself against that pantry door. [shudder]
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:33 PM on May 23, 2014 [16 favorites]

Still holdin' out on Chilton.

Me too, Fred and Alex.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:36 PM on May 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

SHE SAW ABIGAIL LIVING IN THE BASEMENT DIDN'T SHE.

I always kinda figured she saw Abigail, just not a live Abigail!
posted by sparkletone at 11:38 PM on May 23, 2014

The was the most brutal piece of network TV I think I've ever seen. Wow. I can't wait until next season.
posted by Justinian at 11:46 PM on May 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

When does the next season start again?
posted by homunculus at 11:47 PM on May 23, 2014

When Futurama did that whole retcon with the dog to give Seymour a happy ending, it felt cheap, but at the same time I was just really happy that dog got to live a happy life.

I kind of felt that way about Abigail and then as soon Fuller shows that tiny fleeting bit of happiness he just crushes it out. It was a whole rush of different emotions in the span of ten minutes and it was brutal.
posted by john-a-dreams at 11:56 PM on May 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hannibal repeatedly flinging himself against that pantry door. [shudder]

It freaked me out only because IT WAS REALLY DISTRESSINGLY HOT and also the scene of him covered in blood holding Will's face, WHY DIDN'T THEY KISS
posted by elizardbits at 11:57 PM on May 23, 2014 [8 favorites]

i just wanted murder boyfrands
posted by elizardbits at 11:58 PM on May 23, 2014 [3 favorites]

chilton is totally still alive and living in some vegan paradise somewhere
posted by elizardbits at 11:58 PM on May 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

When does the next season start again?

Unknown. The S2 premiere date wasn't announced until, like, December (about 2.5 months prior to air). NBC's already announced their fall schedule I think, which leaves Hannibal as a mid-season replacement most likely. That'd make Jan/Feb of next year a reasonable guess.
posted by sparkletone at 11:59 PM on May 23, 2014

Poetry written in blood. It's such an amazing show and I agree with whoever it was that said that this show in relation to Thomas Harris's writing is like a jazz call and response.

Special callout to my brother who decided to tune up his motorbike which has been backfiring like a motherfucker just at the point where Alana and Hannibal are swapping quips through the door. Added an extra dimension to the horror!
posted by h00py at 12:00 AM on May 24, 2014

Okay, so Hannibal's plan was to run away with Will, and to surprise Will with fixed-teacup!Abigail and be murderhusbands + murderdaughter/sister on the run? So all Will had to do was say 'yes' to running away without killing Jack. He would've discovered Abigail and thus (presumably?) had enough evidence...? I mean, whatever brainwashing Hannibal did on her can be undone, right?

And I am 95% sure Chilton is still alive. The 5% rests on Raul Esparza's availability.
posted by lovecrafty at 12:01 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

So is Will the lone survivor of the massacre at the end?

I fear Alana is dead but if that proves to be true I will burn this motherfucker down.
posted by Justinian at 12:05 AM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

WHAT THE FUCK. WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:47 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Sorry about that. But seriously. What. the. fuck.

I am severely traumatised.

Does anyone know a good psychiatrist?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:52 AM on May 24, 2014 [9 favorites]

So is Will the lone survivor of the massacre at the end

For outside-the-show reasons, I feel very good about Will and Jack making it. Alana's injuries seemed the most reasonably-survivable IRL. feeling pretty certain Abi is toast for real this time though. :(
posted by sparkletone at 12:59 AM on May 24, 2014

Thought I just had: GoT gave us the Red Wedding... Hannibal just gave us the Red Divorce.
posted by sparkletone at 1:00 AM on May 24, 2014 [23 favorites]

HOW HAVE WE NOT TALKED ABOUT HANNIBAL TAKING WILL'S JACKET OFF ALANA AT THE END BECAUSE HE IS THE WORST. This makes me even angrier than the coin toss with Bella.
posted by sparkletone at 1:12 AM on May 24, 2014 [5 favorites]

Every one is still breathing at the end! No one is obviously dead at this point.
posted by lovecrafty at 1:32 AM on May 24, 2014

That was so gorgeous and so awful. So obviously now that I am awake my first move is LET'S WATCH IT AGAIN!

I think Abigail has to be toast. Everyone else has meta-reasons not to be killed off.
posted by Stacey at 4:19 AM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

Oh so what the hell. So what was Bedelia's play in this? Both sides or Hannibal all the way?
posted by arha at 4:20 AM on May 24, 2014

elizardbits, I totally creeped my husband out by whispering 'go on, have a bit of a kiss' during that scene. Guess I'm on the couch tonight.
posted by arha at 4:22 AM on May 24, 2014

Yeah I'm still in a state of Not Okay.

That interview with Fuller a while back where he was all "well we don't quite land the plane..." I didn't realize he was going to be that literal.
posted by dogheart at 5:42 AM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

Fuller loves his puns. He's a ..... punibal!
posted by Pendragon at 5:51 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I finally had to just quit when I could see how things were going and go read a recap for the end of it. Maybe I'll be able to watch the rest of it later, but not this weekend.
posted by Sequence at 6:38 AM on May 24, 2014

I am so glad I watched through the credits. Mostly just because I couldn't believe the show was over.
posted by jeather at 6:38 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Imagine if the show had been cancelled and that was the final episode?
posted by crossoverman at 7:18 AM on May 24, 2014 [6 favorites]

Hannibal is an awful, awful person. But I felt so bad for him when he was pleading with Will to come clean during dinner.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:53 AM on May 24, 2014

OK, like three different characters called cops/ambulances, and none showed up in that whole time?? Also, didn't FBI Lady say they'd put a stop on Hannibal's passport? So how was he flying somewhere international? Wait, why am I even asking, obviously he has like twelve fake passports that he made himself with his perfect calligraphy.

I also agree with "BEDELIA, NO!"
posted by leesh at 7:57 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

And if he WAS planning to be a murder family on the run with Will and Abigail, where did Bedelia come into it?
posted by leesh at 7:57 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

And here we thought that Alana was the character who would always align with the strongest side.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:58 AM on May 24, 2014

BEDELIA WHAT THE FUCK?

Also, I went back and watched the bit where Beverly has her "holy fuck" moment looking in the basement, and it *really* doesn't feel like she was looking at a person. I'm not sure I can specify what, exactly, makes me think that, but something in her reaction.

Man, that was even more of a bloodbath than I expected.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:19 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think Bedelia is doing whatever she can to stay alive. I don't think they're in cahoots so much as she is his willing prisoner.
posted by Windigo at 8:25 AM on May 24, 2014 [4 favorites]

"Also, I went back and watched the bit where Beverly has her "holy fuck" moment looking in the basement, and it *really* doesn't feel like she was looking at a person."

Agreed, for some reason, it strikes me that she wasn't looking at a person, because you'd say something and perhaps give a little startle. Beverly's reaction reads to me as if she saw some awful library of body parts, or similar.

I think it would be brilliant if we never found out.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:25 AM on May 24, 2014

Also: damn, Hannibal has some remarkable penmanship!
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:35 AM on May 24, 2014

Right, but she's not just looking at a person, she is looking at a missing murder victim whose death her friend has been imprisoned in a mental hospital for, who everyone thinks he chopped up and ate, whose ear he vomited up. She's seen all of Hannibal's other "work" displayed as the work of the Chesapeake Ripper, huge, monstrous, and in situ. I don't think there's anything in that line that could truly shock her anymore unless it was something she absolutely was not expecting, and what she went there expecting was to find a serial killer's gruesome trophy room full of artistically mangled corpses.
posted by elizardbits at 9:13 AM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

But yeah, it would be great if we never found out what it was, because then I can imagine it was self-drawn erotic fanart where Hannibal is Tuxedo Mask and Will Graham is Sailor Moon.
posted by elizardbits at 9:14 AM on May 24, 2014 [20 favorites]

Oh god Fuller is calling season 3 Silence on the Lam.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:22 AM on May 24, 2014 [18 favorites]

In the mean time, we have Hannibal at the Zoo on twitter.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:30 AM on May 24, 2014 [10 favorites]

Fuller says, "What exactly did Beverly see? In my mind it was always Abigail Hobbs down there in some way, caught with her hand in the candy jar" [emphasis added], so maybe Hannibal had her doing something Very Bad in the basement.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:31 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think what really makes the big murder scene so gutwrenching is its intimacy. Hannibal kills Will and Hobby the Murder Elf while he's embracing them. After being left to die, Will tries to hold her throat wound shut while he's trying to hold his own guts together. Cut back to Jack, who's trying to close his wounds with a noose made from his tie, while his last phone call isn't to cops, but to his wife. The use of horror and violence is not gratuitous, but instead has a very specific purpose: To convey complex emotions of love and betrayal being experienced by these characters. It's a remarkable feat for network television.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:33 AM on May 24, 2014 [13 favorites]

OK, like three different characters called cops/ambulances, and none showed up in that whole time??

Only two. Alana reported shots fired, Will called an ERT for Alana. Jack didn't call for backup, he called Bella (*gross sobbing*).
posted by sparkletone at 9:33 AM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

I know it was only two, I was exaggerating for dramatic effect. That's still a really poor response time!
posted by leesh at 9:41 AM on May 24, 2014

I'm betting that the shock of hearing Jack's presumably last gasp over the phone with the sirens in the distance is what will do Bella in, and then that is one more death to blame on Hannibal, as well as making it even more personal for Jack.
posted by elizardbits at 9:42 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

In the mean time, we have Hannibal at the Zoo on twitter.

Now I need to see Werner Herzog in conversation with Hannibal Lecter.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:05 AM on May 24, 2014 [6 favorites]

I know the answer is Murder Wizard, and I haven't yet steeled myself for a rewatch, but how the heck did Hannibal get Alana's bullets? Days pass between him discovering that she's been at the gun range and the confrontation, during which time she stayed away so she wouldn't give the plan away (perhaps indicated by a look at her beer bottles in Hannibal's fridge, if that's what that was). Days in which she could have returned to the gun range, etc. Yes? So when did Hannibal have time to get to her gun? Am I misjudging the timing of things somehow?
posted by PussKillian at 10:14 AM on May 24, 2014

I'm fine with it happening off screen, really. It's enough for me that we saw him sniffing the gun powder and knowing something was up.

The only thing that I question about it is Alana not realizing due to the weight difference? Surely an empty mag feels way different? But enh. She was sufficiently freaked out by the situation that I'm willing to go with it since she did at least have the second clip on her.
posted by sparkletone at 10:20 AM on May 24, 2014

I'm fine with it happening off screen, I just can't think of a way it could happen, even off screen. I mean, the show is chock-full of stuff like this - like Will in a taxi all the way from NoVa to Baltimore - but for some reason this one stands out a little more because the show clearly indicated in a few places that Alana was Staying Away.
posted by PussKillian at 10:30 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh, and Sarah Bunting's thoughts on the finale over at Previously.tv.
posted by PussKillian at 10:40 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean, the show is chock-full of stuff like this - like Will in a taxi all the way from NoVa to Baltimore

Or all that stuff in S01 that only made sense if Minnesota was a 90-min drive from Baltimore.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:11 AM on May 24, 2014 [8 favorites]

Some possibilities:
1) Alana usually does not carry her service weapon
2) Alana stayed with Hannibal and began a behind the scenes metamorphosis (like Will)
3) Hannibal made some errands earlier that day
4) Hannibal possesses Xavier level telepathy
posted by whorl at 11:40 AM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Also the fact that there has been 2-3 feet of snow on the ground in Baltimore for apparently 6-8 months.
posted by elizardbits at 11:40 AM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think what really makes the big murder scene so gutwrenching is its intimacy.

The cruelty and brutality of the last two slashings was shocking. Will, dying in physical agony and degradation, is further tortured by the horror of watching Abigail slaughtered in front of him. No Patrick Bateman suit this time, either.
posted by thelonius at 11:52 AM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

I am pretty sure that as soon as hannibal smelled cordite on her hands, and she admitted to having gotten a gun, he simply went into her purse and unloaded the gun while she was in the bathroom.

It's the obvious thing to do. Heck i would have done it so even as i watched that scene i fully expected that he would do it. Though i expected him to sabotage her gun somehow, not simply swipe the ammo. But he was counting on her not to look.
posted by tel3path at 11:53 AM on May 24, 2014

With the departure of the white witch, the snows melt.
posted by tel3path at 11:58 AM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

1) Alana usually does not carry her service weapon

Alana doesn't have a service weapon, does she? Her gun is the one Will gave her. Illegally, one assumes.
posted by Justinian at 12:07 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

I am watching the finale right now (I don't mind spoilers) and I am really loving the music and sound design. The constant tick of the woodblock evokes so many things-- a ticking bomb, a metronome, time running out, and (I can't help but think was intentional since they used a woodblock specifically, sometimes even to double other 'ticking' noises) the sound of hooves.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:24 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, is when Alana with the umbrella walks up the first time we've ever seen the exterior of Hannibal's house? I feel like it is. Not sure what that symbolizes, but it's interesting.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:26 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Alana doesn't have a service weapon, does she? Her gun is the one Will gave her. Illegally, one assumes.

Correct. Alana isn't "real FBI" any more than Will is. She's an instructor/consultant. The gun she's been practicing with is the one Will have her. Will might have a permit for it but she doesn't.
posted by sparkletone at 12:29 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's the first time we've seen it not presented looking upwards into a golden sunlit sky, like a house made of caramel or cookie dough or something.

This is the first time we've seen it looking like the facade of an ordinary house, in natural light.
posted by tel3path at 12:32 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think Bedelia was Hannibal's back up murder friend. If Will and this Abigail had stayed true they would have flown off together to start anew somewhere. Hannibal would have either ignored Bedels (most likely, I'd say ( or he would have killed her, possibly done it all together, as a family.

But once Hannibal smelled Freddie he knew that was a fantasy so he had to go to that back up. Hannibal is nothing if not prepared and seeing what he could do with Bedels seems like a good way to handle being let down by Will.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:34 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, is when Alana with the umbrella walks up the first time we've ever seen the exterior of Hannibal's house?

Yes, it is. I'm hoping at some point we get to see pictures of it in daylight one way or the other (location scouting photos or an establishing timelapse shot next season). I couldn't decide during first watch whether I thought it was a set or an exterior from how they shot it, though I assume the former. It felt perfectly ominous with the rain and the pillars framing that door you knew led to certain doom.
posted by sparkletone at 12:35 PM on May 24, 2014

And it's a way of getting back at bedelia for thinking she could escape him.

I had a thought a while back about whether they were doing anything to make hannibal's house look like it was made of gingerbread. Well, they were not.

But the facade they've been showing us up to now does look more like a gingerbread house than the one they showed tonight.

I think that in any case once hannibal leaves it, it reverts to being an ordinary house.
posted by tel3path at 12:45 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

Oh and I need to rewatch but I thought there were ambulance/police flossing lights/noise arriving as Hannibal was walking out of there? I mean, still a slow response time but at least somebody was showing up.

There's definitely blue-toned light glaring off the wet fence as he walks out, and some of it looks kind of very mildly flashy, like distant police lights, but it's difficult to tell. Not sure if that was meant to be read as "the EMTs arrive" or not.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:49 PM on May 24, 2014

I FORGOT ABOUT FANFARE

Oh man I just now got that "clicking countdown sound"

It's The Tell-Tale Heart you guys
posted by The Whelk at 1:08 PM on May 24, 2014 [4 favorites]

But once Hannibal smelled Freddie he knew that was a fantasy so he had to go to that back up.

The dinner with him kinda pleading with Will to come clean and all will be forgiven is a certain weird kind of slightly heart-breaking. That undercurrent of, "Aw, c'mon, baby, don't do this. Be honest with me and all will be forgiven and we can run away together and be happy."
posted by sparkletone at 1:15 PM on May 24, 2014 [8 favorites]

Well maybe once hannibal leaves the house it's no longer under a spell and police can finally get to it.
posted by tel3path at 1:18 PM on May 24, 2014 [5 favorites]

What infuriates me is hannibal walking away from this thinking they all betrayed him and it's good riddance to bad rubbish and i'll just go! Walk out the door! Something something something any more!

Also, he's so codependent he has to immediately leap into another relationship.

Poor abigail, being subjected to all this all along.
posted by tel3path at 1:19 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, is when Alana with the umbrella walks up the first time we've ever seen the exterior of Hannibal's house?

Ugh. Should've googled first. I'm blatantly wrong about this being the first time. The bits I'm finding aren't full daylight though and don't read as "gingerbread to me." That window over the door's aways been there though.
posted by sparkletone at 1:19 PM on May 24, 2014

Yeah. It really doesn't. It does look more enchanted in the usual "hannibal's house" shots though.
posted by tel3path at 1:21 PM on May 24, 2014

I just. Doesn't this episode just crown the entire narrative structure.

I don't wanna go on tumblr and read all the whingeing petty complaints that first-year creative writing students have about it. I really don't.
posted by tel3path at 1:22 PM on May 24, 2014

Here is a day shot of the exterior.
posted by sparkletone at 1:22 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

It is awesome how nearly all our crazy out there theories came true.

MURDER INTERNS AND ALL.

And yeah "So you think you can run away from me? How about a NONCONSENTUAL VACATION."
posted by The Whelk at 1:30 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

I don't wanna go on tumblr and read all the whingeing petty complaints that first-year creative writing students have about it. I really don't.

I've seen some people who have felt this season wasn't as good as the first, but not really any hate for the finale itself. Just, like, a tiny number of comments on AV Club from people who didn't like the show in the first place. Even that bonearenaofmyskull person who I recall having seemed to be dreading the finale somewhat in the week before seems to have liked it.

I think it paid off all the stuff that lead to it marvelously, and I think that second arc of the season once Will's out of BSHCI will probably play better when binged without the long waits between some of those slower/dreamier episodes. I'm not sure when I'll get to finding out for myself though. Definitely at least once before whatever insane group binge they plan a week or two before S3! We've talked in the thread on the blue about doing a group rewatch here at some point during the hiatus. I'm totally up for that.
posted by sparkletone at 1:32 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

AV Club game the season as a whole an A. Interestingly, a widely held view is that the second season was both better and more flawed than the first season. Which is an interesting dichotomy.
posted by Justinian at 1:36 PM on May 24, 2014

By including the church in the shot, they manage to make the house look like a castle.

In tonight's shots, just a house.
posted by tel3path at 1:37 PM on May 24, 2014

Its a much bigger, much more ITSELF season, so it's good and bad parts are BIGGER AND BOLDER.

Also, repeating what I said in the Other Thread

like I said, this episode was so much Hannibaly Hannibal it felt like he directed it
posted by The Whelk at 1:38 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

How can the second season not be as good as the first, that makes no sense.

That's like saying my red blood cells aren't as good as my white blood cells. Wat.
posted by tel3path at 1:38 PM on May 24, 2014

What Other Thread? Is that Silence of the Fannibals thread still active? Must check.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 PM on May 24, 2014

I hope this means they've finally dropped the more standard proceddural elements and just go FULL BORE CHARACTER WORK next season
posted by The Whelk at 1:40 PM on May 24, 2014

Yes!

(Like a good compromise might be not Killers Of The Week but One Killer ala Red Dragon next to The Hunt For Hannibal )
posted by The Whelk at 1:41 PM on May 24, 2014

Is that Silence of the Fannibals thread still active?

Yep! The whole rationale for starting it even though Fanfare was up at that point was to maintain a space for us to talk about the show without Fanfare's stricter constraints on spoilers (and also to do a big love fest of a post for this lovely show was worthwhile in and of itself as the previous posts were pretty thin). So uh... Yeah. Watch out for meta-show spoilers and stuff from interviews that are already up.
posted by sparkletone at 1:47 PM on May 24, 2014

*taps foot impatiently*

Where is my huge beautiful fic about Abigail living in the murder basement being the Murder Intern it's been hours already fanficers
posted by The Whelk at 1:49 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

Its a much bigger, much more ITSELF season, so it's good and bad parts are BIGGER AND BOLDER.

This, but also I felt like they took more risks this year too on quite a few levels. Most shows would've rolled back Will's incarceration immediately and gone right back to the established formula for the show. While the court episode is my least favorite, they really went with what they'd done and worked on a release that felt earned and then this back half of the season could've been a total disaster if they hadn't stuck the landing so hard. And this is on top of some of the most brazenly weird film-making and murder tableaux they've done yet!
posted by sparkletone at 1:50 PM on May 24, 2014

Yeah, on the other thread we talk about "legit spoilers" as in next week's promos and metacommunication from the showrunner et al.
posted by tel3path at 1:51 PM on May 24, 2014

Yeah, the courtroom episode may not have been that well done but it does establish the legal system as being a self-serving farce straight out of Kafka or Zoshchenko.
posted by tel3path at 1:52 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Man if Bedelia survives her vacation she's going to have a MONSTER of a paper to write about him.
posted by The Whelk at 1:53 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

And in tonight's episode law enforcement suddenly took an interest in enforcing the law at the exact moment to be most ruinous to those still struggling to sustain even so much as a funhouse mirror distortion of some kind of justice and safety. Such that the law is asleep and only wakes up just in time to enforce the devil's rule on this earth.
posted by tel3path at 1:55 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

"Position paper: guys who act like they're all deep feeling and sophisticated but also seem psychopathic, are actually just psychopaths"

I mean, we keep saying stuff like hannibal wouldn't do this, hannibal wouldn't do that. In particular, he wouldn't stoop low.

Then he fucking takes will's coat off alana's shocked and paralyzed body as she lies there unable to move.

FUCK YOU HANNIBAL.
posted by tel3path at 1:57 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

I just.

It is so poignant that abigail saw no other choice than to keep doing what hannibal said. Because it's what her dad made her do. And all the law wanted to do was clap her in jail. She was completely right to perceive that she had no way out.

It's the same position they finally all found themselves in.
posted by tel3path at 2:01 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yeah it flatters Hannibal to think he has some divine, orange and blue moral code but push comes to shoves that all goes out the window the instant his safety is threatened.
posted by The Whelk at 2:01 PM on May 24, 2014 [5 favorites]

Do you suppose hannibal really thought that alana would choose to walk out of there and pretend she didn't know anything? Just offering her the choice is really rubbing it in. But i can't believe he ever seriously thought she would go for it.
posted by tel3path at 2:02 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

What infuriates me is hannibal walking away from this thinking they all betrayed him and it's good riddance to bad rubbish and i'll just go! Walk out the door! Something something something any more!

I love that Fuller referred to it as "dropping the mic and walking offstage." Since Hannibal is of course the ultimate vainglorious rockstar.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:18 PM on May 24, 2014

Just offering her the choice is really rubbing it in.

On one level. On another, I wonder if he sees her willingness to set aside her own safety as a kind of stupidity, and that's where some of his rage is coming from.

I think in his way, he really did like her, but at that point it's like, Will betrayed him, Jack didn't have the good graces to die quietly and now SHE'S here waving a gun at him that he knows to be empty and he's just like, "Goddammit. Get out get out get out."

I believe his offer to spare her was sincere and some of that was an act to intimidate her enough to get her to run, but I also think he's genuinely angry that literally everyone is screwing things up for him all at the same damn time.
posted by sparkletone at 2:31 PM on May 24, 2014 [9 favorites]

Fuller talks like an excited tumblr fan of his own damn show, it's so delightful.
posted by The Whelk at 2:32 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

Get out get out get out.

I am now picturing Hannibal as Dawn Summers.
posted by yellowbinder at 2:42 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

So Mark Oshiro is all caught up now.
posted by Stacey at 3:03 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

So Mark Oshiro is all caught up now.

I'm assuming his review of the finale will just be that in 96pt letters along with a bunch of "gross sobbing" GIFs.
posted by sparkletone at 3:05 PM on May 24, 2014

Also I'm pretty sure I caught some Morton Feldman on the score which is just a delicious way to allude to Hannibal's insane patience and long-term planning w/r/t Abigail.
posted by shakespeherian at 3:08 PM on May 24, 2014

plz explain
posted by The Whelk at 3:09 PM on May 24, 2014

Fuller talks like an excited tumblr fan of his own damn show, it's so delightful.

I'm sure we don't get to see all the longer than long hours, stress, hair-pulling and self-doubt so much, but it really is nice that he gets the same giddy about his show that we all do. OF COURSE HE ALSO FEEDS ON OUR TEARS LIKE HIS NAME WAS MASON, but we can't have everything can we.
posted by sparkletone at 3:10 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

Morton Feldman wrote e.g. string quartets that ran 90 minutes and consisted of intermittent identical phrases and nothing else. It's music in which it's almost impossible to detect any progression or structure.

Here is his Piano and String Quartet which I'm pretty sure I heard in this ep.
posted by shakespeherian at 3:15 PM on May 24, 2014 [4 favorites]

So just deserts...

The devil judges without mercy, forgiveness is of god

Hannibal forgives will SO MAGNANIMOUS but will can't reciprocate

Kade Purnell allowed this to go on until the endgame, then withdrew support in order to allow the bloodsports to play out. However her assessment of the reality of the situation is spot on.

Alana basically mistakes herself to death, or at least winds up "broken" and cast out - by her own patient. Alana has fully repented by now, but she's being judged by hannibal's standards, not God's.

I'm falling asleep... But it's the same with Jack, he ends up being the one in hannibal's pantry (i don't think btw that hannibal said to alana "he's in the pantry" i think he says "he's in the bedroom" and that's why alana sprints upstairs)

Hannibal was gutted so he gutted will, hannibal saw the possibility of a family but will's perfidy jerked it away at the last moment so hannibal outdid him in this score

And abigail remained abigail. Traded as a prisoner from one killer to another without even the protection of the law. What she deserved is beside the point here because hannibal doesn't actually give a shit, not really.

Well! It can't stop there, hannibal simply MUST feed kade purnell her own brains since she mercilessly consumes the minds of her underlings,
posted by tel3path at 4:06 PM on May 24, 2014

i don't think btw that hannibal said to alana "he's in the pantry"

Nah, it was definitely pantry. Alana runs upstairs because she's terrified beyond all capacity for rational thought and just wants to get enough between Hannibal and her to give her time to grab the second clip from her purse.
posted by sparkletone at 4:53 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

He definitely says "pantry" - I watch with the subs on because of hearing impairment so when I read "pantry" when I was expecting to read "wine closet" or whatever fancy term Hannibal might use I was surprised.
posted by elizardbits at 5:01 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Thankfully my pantry is too small to hide a Jack Crawford in
posted by The Whelk at 5:09 PM on May 24, 2014

But how do we know you don't have a Jack Crawford spread out in all those cans?
posted by The World's End at 5:56 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

BF: [Laughs.] I think for season three, in continuing our mash-up of Thomas Harris’ DJ instinct, we will blend of the novel Hannibal and also the novel Hannibal Rising and doing our own version of the Hannibal Lecter origin story, which will bear no resemblance to what is in Hannibal Rising.

And there was much rejoicing.
posted by thelonius at 5:58 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

The thing that freaks out Beverly in Hannibal's basement: an identikit FrankenWill lovingly crafted from previous victims.
posted by Requiax at 6:27 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

i don't want any of them to be dead
posted by neuromodulator at 6:41 PM on May 24, 2014

also i strongly suspected abigail was alive given the way they hit the teacup speech

but i'm worried that too many people are surprise!alive to hold on to my hopes for chilton. best hope now is that he had a twin brother who is also a psychiatrist and comes to run the asylum.
posted by neuromodulator at 6:55 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I am going to have nightmares about "in the pantry." That was just about the most unsettling line reading of anything, ever.
posted by dogheart at 7:10 PM on May 24, 2014 [10 favorites]

but i'm worried that too many people are surprise!alive to hold on to my hopes for chilton. best hope now is that he had a twin brother who is also a psychiatrist and comes to run the asylum.

Hey, for what it's worth...
posted by Gymnopedist at 7:15 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

I am hoping that we get a young Clarice in season 3, apprenticed to Will as a magic murder detector, who eventually takes down Hannibal as the foil to Abigail's storyline. (Since the show is a) going to need a woman in it somewhere what with the current ones all being dead except Bedelia b) probably only getting one more season, it makes sense to go for broke and add the one remaining character everyone would recognize.)
posted by tautological at 8:15 PM on May 24, 2014

They don't have the rights to Clarice yet tho.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:24 PM on May 24, 2014

Ah - I didn't know that. Guess that explains why we haven't seen her yet, then!
posted by tautological at 8:31 PM on May 24, 2014

I look forward to FBI trainee Alice Sparrow.
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 PM on May 24, 2014 [6 favorites]

I am going to have nightmares about "in the pantry." That was just about the most unsettling line reading of anything, ever.

A true moment of Undiluted Lecter. I'd remembered it slightly differently. I remembered the hint of implied "you idiot" in his tone, like why the hell does Alana think he's flinging himself at the door. But on rewatch: He whispers before returning to something more like his normal manner. It felt weirdly conspiratorial despite the way he was spitting the words at her.

As upsetting as the final conversation with Will was, I was more scared by that little monologue.
posted by sparkletone at 9:28 PM on May 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

we saw more Actual lecter this episode than ever before. The guy almost gleefully whispering "In the pantry" is the thing past the person suit.
posted by The Whelk at 9:37 PM on May 24, 2014 [11 favorites]

Oh, I hadn't grasped that he smelled Freddie on Will. I saw a flash of something onscreen but the significance escaped me.
posted by Pronoiac at 10:06 PM on May 24, 2014

I look forward to FBI trainee Alice Sparrow.

Hunting down Schmuffalo Phil.
posted by crossoverman at 10:37 PM on May 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

I saw a flash of something onscreen but the significance escaped me.

We go inside Hannibal's head for a moment and the camera does this weird pullback through a bunch of red things which are eventually revealed to be Freddie's hair. The camera pulls back further still and we see Freddie, whose skin is also as red as her hair, standing in empty blackness. She opens her eyes and then we cut back to Hannibal looking sad as he puts together that he's being played.
posted by sparkletone at 10:51 PM on May 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Look at who ends up in the rain.
posted by mikurski at 11:28 PM on May 24, 2014

Said it in the other thread but I HAVE to watch this one with no commercials.

Then I have to start dating someone who has never seen this show so I can marathon it with them all over again.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:02 AM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Look at who ends up in the rain.

The cake?
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 AM on May 25, 2014 [7 favorites]

Part of me really wishes Hannibal had been a bit less oblique about the Abigail reveal, and he and Will and Abigail could have flown away (I think Will would have gone with them) and then Abigail could have run away from her cannibal family or something. I haven't totally worked it out, but I am sure it could have ended better. Sure, Hannibal is a cannibal and a serial killer, but he was so sad about everything and Mads is just really compelling.

I'd love for them to do Paris in Montreal. They can't afford Paris. Montreal's just down the street from Toronto.
posted by jeather at 9:50 AM on May 25, 2014

From elsewhere:

George R R Martin more like Mr R R Rogers

posted by showbiz_liz at 9:53 AM on May 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

Part of me really wishes Hannibal had been a bit less oblique about the Abigail reveal, and he and Will and Abigail could have flown away (I think Will would have gone with them) and then Abigail could have run away from her cannibal family or something.

I know why he didn't do that: because then Will would have been going along with it all for Abigail's sake, not Hannibal's. Abigail was Will's reward for turning on Jack, not his incentive to do so. The incentive had to be his own internal darkness and his friendship with Hannibal. Anything else would be unacceptable to Hannibal.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:44 AM on May 25, 2014 [11 favorites]

It's an interesting choice to make the finale exhausting rather than exhilarating, but the more I reflect on the finale the less I like it. For one thing, it's rather hard to see where the characters go regardless of who has survived.

Not only have they shown that the deuteragonist isn't up to the challenge of Hannibal Lecter, they've also pretty well demolished any lingering hope that a flicker of competence might turn up among any of Hannibal's other established pursuers. I suppose he (and perhaps Bedelia) is just doomed to be sadly disappointed übermenschen in a world of free-range rude and Keystone Kops.

It's beautifully shot and usually suspensefully paced, but I don't really know what's at stake anymore in it. I'm certainly less inclined to care what happens to any of the characters after this episode than I was before it, since the episode has now definitively shown how their world works.
posted by kewb at 11:52 AM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Okay, but:

Freddie knows. What does she know? Nothing incriminating enough on its own, and because she is a known liar her testimony alone is legally inadmissible. She was the best hope for leading them to evidence, but there's nobody wanting her to lead them now.

Jack survives, he pulled a gun on Hannibal and was attacked in return. Legally that could be self defense and he knows nothing more now than he did previously. KP told him his testimony was auto-discredited which is probably true.

Abigail will probably die.

Alana will probably survive and may be able to testify to what Abigail told her, but no more. And all she said was that she kept doing what "he" said. She also knows Abigail pushed her out the window, and that Hannibal offered her the choice to stay blind. Not about what.

Will will survive, and he'll probably be accused of conspiring to hide Abigail knowing the FBI's track record so far. And also of killing her. Heck his testimony is also a priori discredited so I don't know what he could say that would make anyone in authority believe him, even now.

The fact that Hannibal is on the run is the thing that actually discredits him, not the numerous bodies and mess. He's had numerous bodies and mess before. But there's still no more evidence against him than there was before.
posted by tel3path at 12:15 PM on May 25, 2014

Hannibal did tell Alana that if she stayed, he'd kill her.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:36 PM on May 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

There is that.

And she claimed to have heard gunshots but she really didn't.
posted by tel3path at 12:45 PM on May 25, 2014

The incentive had to be his own internal darkness and his friendship with Hannibal.

The only thing I'd disagree with here is that I don't think at this stage it can be downgraded to "friendship". I mean, whatever one thinks about the possibility of there being anything physical or not, this was Hannibal's Jareth moment. "Fear me, love me, do everything I say, and I will be your slave." Not, "be slightly nervous, like me more than you like some other people, and take my suggestions under advisement". It's really an emotional all-or-nothing.
posted by Sequence at 12:49 PM on May 25, 2014 [11 favorites]

And she claimed to have heard gunshots but she really didn't.

I mean I get your point, but your premise seems to be that any one of these people can be disbelieved. It's hard to imagine all of them coming forward with the same story and being collectively disbelieved.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:53 PM on May 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

Well, yeah... I guess I used the word 'friendship' because there isn't really a word for what Hannibal wanted out of Will.

Also the Jareth comparison makes me so happy. The baby = Abigail. "You have no power over me" = "You killed the baby and gutted me with a linoleum knife."
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:53 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

kewb: I think the difference is, now Hannibal will be exposed to everyone. Everyone who survived that massacre is a witness, not to mention Freddie, who also knows everything. Freddie is going to report on this shit, and people believe Freddie. This isn't a world where Hannibal just vanished into the shadows, this is a world where he is finally exposed and is on the run for his freedom.

So what? This is a guy who, with his passport frozen, can still get a first-class ticket to wherever alongside someone who was presumably up until that very morning both a material witness against him and a person in protective custody.

For that matter, Hannibal was already quite confident that he could retain his freedom and lifestyle after choosing to expose himself; the episode makes clear that even the characters with both the motivation and the means to risk everything to stop him…can't.

The episode itself makes an extraordinarily strong case that "exposed" certainly does not mean "on the run for his freedom" in any meaningful sense for Hannibal.
posted by kewb at 12:59 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yes but, we only know that two people survive and they have been thoroughly discredited by the FBI because of their intent to execute just such a plan.

The only person Hannibal has said anything incriminating to, as such, is Alana. He admitted to systematically deceiving her over a long period of time (not about what though) and also threatened to kill her if she stayed... Standing there with a gun pointed at him.

If Kade Purnell chooses to see it that way, she can, it's no more ludicrous than any other official story, and KP is the law so who is really going to challenge her.

It looks like Will is in in the Clarice role in Hannibal next season and I don't look forward to how this will turn out for him.
posted by tel3path at 1:22 PM on May 25, 2014

I mean the Clarice role in the Hannibal book.
posted by tel3path at 1:22 PM on May 25, 2014

Abigail was wearing (badly or faded) black-dyed chef whites, wasn't she?
posted by Lyn Never at 1:52 PM on May 25, 2014

I thought it was army green!
posted by tel3path at 2:17 PM on May 25, 2014

It's mentioned in book Hannibal that Hannibal had been planning his lam plan for some time before the linoleum knife incident. In the Harrisverse Hannibal's lam plans stay dormant until he is released from prison, but it's no more of a shock to Harris' vision than anything else Fuller has done to have Hannibal making use of those preparations now.

What's a bit more mysterious than Hannibal having good alternate ID is him getting Bedelia on the plane. She might be going under her own name, with Hannibal knowing they will eventually follow her to wherever they land but confident he can stay ahead of them. I'm not sure I can buy into Bedelia having made such preparations and Hannibal doesn't have time to make arrangements for her.

(I know, I know, MURDER WIZARDS and all that.)
posted by localroger at 2:27 PM on May 25, 2014

He was planning to take Abigail for sure, also under a false identity since she is legally dead.
posted by tel3path at 2:46 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

And I assume he had fake papers made for Bedelia long ago.
posted by tel3path at 2:47 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Kade Prurnell must be a halfwit if she genuinely thinks a warrant and a stopped passport will do a thing. I have to think she was setting them all up for vigilantism.
posted by tel3path at 2:48 PM on May 25, 2014

Wait though, it isn't an entrapment defense for murder.

Jack even said this, I think.
posted by tel3path at 3:24 PM on May 25, 2014

Just picked up on something that I didn't before- when Hannibal was burning those journals, he said it was so that "his patients could avoid scrutiny." Does that mean that all of those journals are full of people who might turn out to be future Art Murderers? Is Hannibal like the Magneto of this show?
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:37 PM on May 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

Krendler from whom Kade is Starbucked was indeed a halfwit, with no brains for anything except political maneuvering. So that's canon.
posted by localroger at 3:40 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Is Hannibal like the Magneto of this show?

If there was any doubt, the saga of Randall Tier pretty much removed it. Hannibal has been a busy Becoming-encouraging bee.

The scary thing is that in that analogy, there is no Dr. Xavier; Will's about as close as you get.
posted by localroger at 3:41 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

He was totally running the Doctor Lecter School For Gifted Murderers.

He's burning the records to protect his Murder Students. He has no reason to destroy the murder basement, he's leaving "this life" to go be with Will on planet Europe, leaving behind all the proof where they could find it would be totally in line with his AHAHAHAHA LOOK AT ME LOOK HOW DUMB YOU ALL WHERE outlook.

Hannibal is going to thi Will is dead dead dead until he sees the cover of Freddie's book blowing up the bookshops of Prague or whereever he is with his captive vacay busy ( who you know is trying to find an excuse to throw him off a boat or something.) and he realizes he needs to return to KILL WILL.
posted by The Whelk at 3:42 PM on May 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

Jack is kind of like Xaiver but a really, really shitty one

Will is Jean Grey duh.
posted by The Whelk at 3:43 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

And I assume he had fake papers made for Bedelia long ago.

I can see how that works for Abigail, who is pretty much in thrall to him to sit for the photos and sign paperwork, but I don't see that working for Bedelia. Remember that Bedelia isn't just a scared little girl; she knows what Hannibal can do but she's also smarter than he is.
posted by localroger at 3:44 PM on May 25, 2014

They're clearly flying first class, they could be dropping in blood with bombs strapped to thier chest screaming about gremlins on the wings and they'd still do everything to smooth the process for a first class passenger. It's actually kind of Distrubing when you see it up close.
posted by The Whelk at 3:47 PM on May 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

Jack is NOTHING like Xavier. He cares about nothing except accomplishing his own personal and career objectives, and he doesn't care who gets mowed down in the process. In the Xmen 'verse there aren't any people quite as shitty as Jack on Xavier's side because they all went over to Magneto for pragmatic reasons.
posted by localroger at 3:47 PM on May 25, 2014

they could be dropping in blood with bombs strapped to thier chest screaming about gremlins on the wings and they'd still do everything to smooth the process for a first class passenger.

Jealous of that skipping the TSA line thing and the pre-boarding cocktails much?
posted by localroger at 3:49 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Later on in the book burning scene, Hannibal has this little speech about how if he's ever apprehended, he'll live in his crazy memory palace full-time. Is that meant to imply that on the show, they'll shoot scenes there? Like, someone comes to visit Hannibal in jail, and from his perspective they're hanging out in his weird mind palace? He gets served gross prison food and imagines making some amazing meal in his kitchen (giving Janice Poon a reason to stick around)?
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:50 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Jealous of that skipping the TSA line thing and the pre-boarding cocktails much?

I'm going to miss that private car with the stocked bar that comes to your house to pick you up yes.
posted by The Whelk at 3:52 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

He gets served gross prison food and imagines making some amazing meal in his kitchen (giving Janice Poon a reason to stick around)?

That's pretty much exactly how it's portrayed in book Hannibal. Which is why I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for prison life to wipe the smug smile from his face.
posted by localroger at 3:52 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

"you can't hurt me ...in my MIIIIIIND."

Until he accidentally walks into the Will Graham Memorial Attic.
posted by The Whelk at 3:53 PM on May 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm going to miss that private car with the stocked bar that comes to your house to pick you up yes.

Well my wife flies first class pretty often -- she does this whole gaming system with the frequent flyer miles so that she doesn't have to fly to places like Africa for birding in steerage -- and I don't think we've ever gotten the limo house service. What airline do you fly?

She has gotten me upgraded a couple of times, although since she's only silver I usually get to wave at her from the premium exit row seat she's arranged for me. I have to say the pre-boarding cocktail, generally in real glassware, is a bit of a hoot as the Lesser People file past to their seats in the cattle section.
posted by localroger at 3:55 PM on May 25, 2014

the Will Graham Memorial Attic.

You can count on the Will Graham Memorial Attic being one of the more elaborately appointed rooms in Hannibal's memory palace. He will not avoid it because of the pain.
posted by localroger at 3:57 PM on May 25, 2014

( it was Virgin Atlantic. I was not paying.)
posted by The Whelk at 3:59 PM on May 25, 2014

The Will Graham Memorial Attic is just a simple room with a bed, a stuffed Ravenstag, and Tiger Beat style posters of Will on the wall.
posted by The Whelk at 4:03 PM on May 25, 2014 [5 favorites]

Wait, on Virgin Atlantic don't you get frequent flyer miles that apply to SpaceShip Two?
posted by localroger at 4:03 PM on May 25, 2014

just a simple room with a bed, a stuffed Ravenstag, and Tiger Beat style posters of Will on the wall.

It saves Hannibal considerable effort to host it on Tumblr, yes.
posted by localroger at 4:06 PM on May 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

Is that meant to imply that on the show, they'll shoot scenes there?

That office set is too cool to give up entirely, I think. Someone comes down the stairs to the row of cells where Will was kept as well, opens the door and cut to them stepping into Hannibal's office to have a chat with the good doctor.

Chilton does something shitty and abusive but in Hannibal's mind he's in that crazy drawing room, playing harpsichord, etc.

I'm looking forward to it!
posted by sparkletone at 4:06 PM on May 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yeah I can totally see that as a way to keep the awesome sets ( and build new ones) and also remind us that Hannibal has both amazing control over his perception and his kind of fucking bonkers.

Plus it's in the text and too good not to use. Think of all the crazy editing you could do!

( I want a running joke where whenever he sees Chilton he gives him increasingly tacky and vulgar ties to wear in his mind palace.)
posted by The Whelk at 4:08 PM on May 25, 2014 [6 favorites]

That's pretty much exactly how it's portrayed in book Hannibal. Which is why I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for prison life to wipe the smug smile from his face.

Maybe not, but it'll put a smile on my face just to look at him in that crappy cell, wearing that crappy jumpsuit.

... oh my god I'm Chilton in this scenario.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:09 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's okay just let it happen, Raul's Chilton is more human and smug and comic.

There is no way I could pull off his double breasted bat-wing lapels tho. You need to be whisper thin for that to work.
posted by The Whelk at 4:14 PM on May 25, 2014

oh my god I'm Chilton in this scenario

Yep.

Considering how they portrayed Will's interior mindscape in S1-2, I'd be shocked if Fuller doesn't take a running leap with Hannibal's Memory Palace. It's a great way to show how he retains his core powers even in defeat.
posted by localroger at 4:15 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Krendler from whom Kade is Starbucked was indeed a halfwit

WAIT ARE YOU SERIOUS OH MY GOD NO

seriously though is this a real thing that Fuller has said? or is this just speculation, tell me immediately IMMEDIATELY
posted by elizardbits at 4:36 PM on May 25, 2014

Kade Purnell is an anagram of Paul Krendler. I think Fuller talked about it in one of the AV Club post mortems? He's definitely confirmed that Kade is a Krendler stand-in.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:39 PM on May 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yeah Fuller has said several times that Kade is Krendler as much as Alana is Alan Bloom.
posted by localroger at 4:41 PM on May 25, 2014

I wonder why he didn't just go with Paula Krendler?
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:43 PM on May 25, 2014

Well you already had Alana Bloom, and nobody likes to see the same magic trick twice in a row.
posted by localroger at 4:44 PM on May 25, 2014

OH and remembering -- Krendler is introduced in SOTL and, like Clarice, not available.
posted by localroger at 4:46 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

argh im so mad
posted by elizardbits at 4:50 PM on May 25, 2014

I wonder if there is a Scrabble set somewhere with the letters that spell CLARICE STARLING picked out so they can try things out once in awhile.
posted by localroger at 4:50 PM on May 25, 2014

Wow eliz what's the problem? Not shipping Kade already are we?
posted by localroger at 4:51 PM on May 25, 2014

BECAUSE I WAS EXCITED FOR HIS GRUESOME WELL EARNED DEATH AND NOW IT WILL JUST BE ANOTHER WOMAN FOR FULLER TO FRIDGE UGH

angriest hiss
posted by elizardbits at 4:53 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

BUT ALSO I really wanted to see who they would cast; Ray Liotta did a pretty good job at oozing around like a huge douche but he was still not the gross creeper ideal Krendler of my hannibal dreams.
posted by elizardbits at 4:54 PM on May 25, 2014

nb i am not sure who the gross creeper ideal Krendler of my hannibal dreams actually is
posted by elizardbits at 4:57 PM on May 25, 2014

Ow. Well, they obviously have to change something, since it's strongly implied in book Hannibal that Krendler's beef against Clarice is that he tried to get in her pants and she wasn't having any.

I really wouldn't expect whoever played Krendler even male to do much oozing, since he had nontrivial delusions of running for office before Hannibal fed Clarice his ambitions. I'd expect him to be smooth but not an out-and-out used car salesman.
posted by localroger at 4:59 PM on May 25, 2014

nb i am not sure who the gross creeper ideal Krendler of my hannibal dreams actually is

That guy who plays Jean-Ralphio on Parks and Rec.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:04 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

I have a bunch of thoughts, but for now I will just say that Hannibal's sniff-o-vision image of Freddy reminded me of that beautiful transition in Park Chan-Wook's Stoker when Nicole Kidman's hair turns into a field of grass.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 7:00 PM on May 25, 2014

Also, how does Hannibal know Will hasn't made a wig out of Freddy's hair that he wears when he's just hanging out at home with his dog-bros? Maybe that's why he smells like Freddy.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 7:05 PM on May 25, 2014 [6 favorites]

So was that the Red Dinner or the Red Divorce?
posted by jeather at 7:37 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

The Red DTMFA.
posted by lovecrafty at 7:46 PM on May 25, 2014 [7 favorites]

Red Teacup
posted by infinitewindow at 7:46 PM on May 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Unless Kade is actively looking for Hannibal or somehow making life bad for Will I don't see her meeting the same end, if only cause she isn't as important to the story yet. I think the dynamic just needed an Officious FBI Internal Affairs Person.
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 PM on May 25, 2014

I honestly do hope they leave Kade as a kewl anagram shout out and introduce a real male dbag to do to Shmarice Shmarling something like what Krendler did to Clarice and to receive his come uppance eventually.

PS. I can't imagine why my phone's autocorrect tries to allcaps so many of the character names for this show...
posted by sparkletone at 9:24 PM on May 25, 2014

(it was Virgin Atlantic. I was not paying.)

Virgin Atlantic does all kinds of "transpo + entertainment" stuff if you're interested. Like, you can also take motorcycle tours with them from the airport and things like that. I don't think other airlines do any of that stuff, though.

I will hate them forever because they never carry enough meals and don't give out any alcohol, and they're always screwing up their seating arrangements. YOU ARE NOT FORGIVEN FOR THAT "VEGAN" MEAL YOU DREDGED UP FOR ME THAT TIME, VIRGIN ATLANTIC. NOT FORGIVEN.

Freaking Aeroflot is better.

Chilton does something shitty and abusive but in Hannibal's mind he's in that crazy drawing room, playing harpsichord, etc.

Naw, I can't see Hannibal bothering to go to any mind palace to deal with Chilton. Isn't the point that you go there when reality is too horrible to deal with directly? Chilton's not nightmarish and appalling in that way. He's nightmarish and appalling in more of an "ingrown hair" kind of way. Like, "grit your teeth and roll your eyes" horrible, not "escape into a dreamworld in order to survive" horrible.

Having to put on that jump suit, especially if there are any mirrors in the cell, would come closer to Mind Palace Level, I think. Just because DAMN that is fucking humiliating. A prisoner's jumpsuit?!
posted by rue72 at 9:27 PM on May 25, 2014

Also, how does Hannibal know Will hasn't made a wig out of Freddy's hair that he wears when he's just hanging out at home with his dog-bros? Maybe that's why he smells like Freddy.

I think that what bothered Hannibal the most about Will smelling like Freddie is that, if Will hadn't truly murdered and butchered Freddie, he hadn't ~transformed~/~become~ in the way he had claimed to have. I think *that* was the betrayal, in Hannibal's eyes, not some bullshit with Jack.
posted by rue72 at 9:33 PM on May 25, 2014 [8 favorites]

also creepy...him seeing Freddie as All Red.

You know.

Like meat.
posted by The Whelk at 9:49 PM on May 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

STILL RELEVANT
posted by The Whelk at 11:52 PM on May 25, 2014

Isn't the point that you go there when reality is too horrible to deal with directly?

No, it's an exercise designed to improve memory. Thus memory palace, not fantasy palace. By assigning memories to virtual physical locations you engage a different part of the brain which makes them "solid." The technique goes back to the ancient Greeks.
posted by localroger at 5:13 AM on May 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

It seems hypocritical for Hannibal to get all huffy about "you faked that woman's death and made me think you'd killed her!" when that's, like, Hannibal's go-to move. Maybe your Murder-Spouses would stick around if you weren't so Murder-Demanding, Hannibal.
posted by kewb at 6:58 AM on May 26, 2014 [16 favorites]

Hannibal was going to find *something* wrong because obviously things were going to fall apart and he couldn't control Will perfectly (meaning, he couldn't control *himself* perfectly around Will) and when the murder!family went kaput IT WAS NOT GOING TO BE HIS FAULT GODDAMNIT.

Jeez I felt so much for Will when Hannibal had him bleeding out on the floor and Abigail was just standing there watching and Hannibal was still radiating fury and Will kept saying that he HAD BEEN a perfect murder!husband and had changed Hannibal. I hope that everybody's ex boyfriend is watching this show and going OMG WHAT HAVE I DONE NEXT TIME I WON'T BE LIKE HANNIBAL. Because I feel like Hannibal was everybody's horrible and scary ex boyfriend in that moment. That moment when Hannibal turned from the "boyfriend" to the "ex," right there, right then.

Or maybe it's just me. I mean, hopefully nobody's ex or current bf is *as* much of a monster as Hannibal is, and mine sure isn't, but whoa it couldn't have just been me that had a strong flash of recognition in that scene. Damn, it knocks the wind out of a person.
posted by rue72 at 7:10 AM on May 26, 2014 [4 favorites]

hopefully nobody's ex or current bf is *as* much of a monster as Hannibal is

Dunno, jealousy and spite are surprisingly like wildfire, IMHO. Once they get going, people you always considered nice and civilized turn into these petty freaks that can in that instant say pretty much anything that salvages their bruised egos. As "civilized" as Lecter pretends to be, I think he's constantly one or two "rude encounters" away from turning into a kid with a tantrum once he lets someone enter his emotional zone. Hence I suspect he's just unable to form any kind of family unit, even the murderfamily type.
posted by Iosephus at 7:48 AM on May 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

If Kade is so dense, how come she knows Phillip K Dick's definition of "reality"?
posted by thelonius at 7:58 AM on May 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

Kade's whole job so far is to prevent embrassment and possibly a mass cull of the BCU, right? I can see her trying to shove everything under a rug and go "whelp! Everything's gone all end of Hamlet and since Jack's in critical condition I'll be taken over as interm cheif and my first order is to get rid of everyone associated with this disaster and pretend the whole damn thing never happened."
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 AM on May 26, 2014

if the fbi is so accepting then why is it that i kade purnell
posted by elizardbits at 8:19 AM on May 26, 2014

Fuller loves his puns. He's a ..... punibal!

Hannibal Lecter is the Chesapeake Quipper
posted by elizardbits at 8:22 AM on May 26, 2014 [8 favorites]

His wordplay is killer.
posted by The Whelk at 8:23 AM on May 26, 2014

No, it's an exercise designed to improve memory. Thus memory palace, not fantasy palace. By assigning memories to virtual physical locations you engage a different part of the brain which makes them "solid." The technique goes back to the ancient Greeks.

Right, it's Hannibal's way of saying that if his incarceration reality is tedious and unappealing, he has an intricate memory palace full of much more interesting experiences he can relive instead. Patrick Jane on The Mentalist also has a memory palace; all the really super-smart antisocial TV characters do.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:28 AM on May 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

all the really super-smart antisocial TV characters do.

I think that's confusing the two definitions -- most of the antisocial characters are unfriendly, but not actually violent, while Hannibal is quite friendly except when he's killing and eating people.
posted by jeather at 10:45 AM on May 26, 2014

asocial /= antisocial
posted by kewb at 12:22 PM on May 26, 2014

So but why did Will warn Hannibal that "they know"?

Was he actually floundering in his desire to catch Hannibal?
Was he worried that without a wire and assault team Jack would get killed?
Was he trying to forestall the "murder entrapment" events from unfolding, knowing that the FBI was turning against them?
Or was he trying to preserve the illusion of being Hannibal's ally, knowing that his impending arrest would shake that illusion?

I feel like his actions are best explained by the first one, there, but I also find that pretty inconsistent with Will's character. He can't waiver in his mission to bring justice to Abigail and Beverley's killer, but that's the only explanation I find really fits with his warning. The others seem plausible but sloppy. What was everyone else's take?
posted by neuromodulator at 12:35 PM on May 26, 2014

A combination of the last three, and also the first.

Jack would have been fighting a losing battle and i doubt he wanted jack or himself to end up like him, as well.
posted by tel3path at 12:42 PM on May 26, 2014

re: anti-social, I think that there's a lot on this show where appearance is at odds to reality. Hannibal *appears* very well integrated into society, very nurturing, very good with people -- but in reality, he's strongly anti-social, destructive, cruel. Many of the other characters, especially but not solely Will, *appear* very at-odds with society, very cold, very lonely -- but in reality, they're strongly pro-social, nurturing, connected.

The memory palace that Hannibal and Will were talking about was pretty clearly, to me, not about the mnemonic device but a way of dissociating/fantasizing to try and keep in touch with their memory of *who they are* and finding a place to feel at peace, safe, etc. That's why they were discussing Will's quiet stream and why they were having that conversation over Hannibal's patient notes.

I think it's also important that Hannibal was bringing up the importance of memory for identity because his goal was to *reshape* Will's identity -- but he did that *without* giving him memories of that process, last season. He also told Chilton last season that manipulation can only be real and permanent if the subject isn't aware of the manipulation (this was in Roti). That's why it was such a major turning point for Will when he got his memories back, and why he was so insistent that that was meaningful (even though Jack basically gave him a raspberry about it at the time -- that was in the first couple episodes of this season).

Anyway, how that might come into play in terms of Will saying "they know" to Hannibal is -- that was him *being* Hannibal and triggering a reenactment of the Garrett Jacobs Hobbes showdown at the Hobbes house. Remember in Oeuf, when Hannibal has Abigail reenact the family dinner that *should* have happened that night (with himself and Alana standing in as her parents), so that she could let go of the nightmare version of that night that happened and create a not-tragic version of that memory? Alana (the stand-in for Abigail's mother) sprawled across the threshold, Will bleeding out in the corner insisting on the folie-a-duex (the stand-in for a dying Garrett Jacob Hobbes), Abigail with the knife at her through (as herself!), and Hannibal slitting Abigail's throat (as The Ripper/Copycat/Shrike) -- it was all a reenactment of that same confrontation, but how it "should" have gone, how it would have gone if Will hadn't been (hadn't become) a killer. Will was able to let go of himself as a killer at that moment, because of that reenactment, which is why the murder!stag shuddered and died.

I think that the reason that Will was able to step into that reenactment is because he wasn't aware of the manipulation, because he was triggering it through something outside of his own memory of the event (because it takes the subject's ignorance to make the manipulation real/lasting).

In terms of why he *thought* he was making that call -- I think he wanted to save Hannibal *and* Jack *and* himself. I think he was trying not to betray anyone. I also think that he was ready to run off with Hannibal, that he wanted to flee with him. He was defining himself by his relationship to Hannibal and the game he was locked into with Hannibal by that point, and I don't think that was love, really, but I think that he at least understood it and understood himself within that framework. I also think that the murder!family that Hannibal was trying to offer him was genuinely tempting to him for its own reasons (belonging, love, etc).

Way back during Will's trial, Hannibal tried to convince Jack to stick with the FBI because who else would he have once Bella was gone? Will doesn't have the FBI anymore, so who else would he have once Hannibal is gone? Of course, Jack still betrayed the FBI and Will still betrayed Hannibal, but I think that those betrayals were made in the effort to adhere to the ideals/identity that they had within the FBI and with Hannibal, respectively.
posted by rue72 at 1:08 PM on May 26, 2014 [7 favorites]

Let me be clear, then: there are two definitions of antisocial that I am using. One is the one that is sort of like introversion, where you do not like people or company. The other is more like sociopathy, where you do not like humanity or act against it. Hannibal clearly fits the latter (though he might think otherwise), but I don't think the former is true of him -- I think he in general likes people (except rude ones) and is interested in being around them. This differs from most of the antisocial brilliant tv characters -- Patrick Jane (I only watched the first season), many version of Sherlock, House, etc -- who don't like individual people or don't like company, but generally act in order to help the world in some way.
posted by jeather at 2:18 PM on May 26, 2014

I think that's confusing the two definitions -- most of the antisocial characters are unfriendly, but not actually violent, while Hannibal is quite friendly except when he's killing and eating people.

This differs from most of the antisocial brilliant tv characters -- Patrick Jane (I only watched the first season), many version of Sherlock, House, etc -- who don't like individual people or don't like company, but generally act in order to help the world in some way.

Well, my remark was 90% a joke, but Jane and House do have antisocial personality traits; in some respects, they're trickster characters (in the folklore sense), whose actions can be beneficial or altruistic but also chaotic, transgressive, destructive. They think rules don't apply to themselves and that people are mostly eggs they sometimes need to break en route to an omelet. The current Sherlock refers to himself as a "high functioning sociopath," which doesn't mean he is one, just that he finds it convenient to say that. Plenty of real-world psychopaths never do anything violent, just narcissistic and unempathetic.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:28 PM on May 26, 2014

I get what you mean, and i haven't seen the mentalist but house's behaviour, obnoxious though it was, was strictly more prosocial than not, in the first season the big love scenes were between house and his patients, like when he pressed the executive with the heart condition to give a real (not bullshit) answer to the question of whether she valued her own life, and when she affirmed this he risked his license breaking the rules to save her life. By definition, then, he was not antisocial, and i also honestly question how narcissistic it could even be (I mean he was narcissistic, but perhaps not in all things at all times) if his overriding concern over his own well being was the well being of his patient (something that could not have been done for show either, considering there were no witnesses to this or the other most heartfelt conversations.
posted by tel3path at 2:44 PM on May 26, 2014

Jeather, a prosocial actor who does not like human company is asocial, not antisocial.
posted by tel3path at 2:45 PM on May 26, 2014

The memory palace that Hannibal and Will were talking about was pretty clearly, to me, not about the mnemonic device but a way of dissociating/fantasizing

Even though Brian Fuller has ripped pages out of all of Thomas Harris' books and stuck them in each other in no apparent order, it is useful to actually know what's in there. It is canon that the memory palace is a mnemonic device, full stop. There are several full pages devoted to describing it in novel Hannibal and Harris happens to be how I learned about it.

It is established in Red Dragon and SOTL that Hannibal has perfect recall; the memory palace is there to retcon that this wasn't some freak gift he was born with but an aptitude he cultivated by study and practice. It turns out to be a very important part of his character, particularly when he's "on the lam" and improvising a lot.

It is a side effect, not a primary goal, that Hannibal's memory palace also makes it impossible for imprisonment to deny him nice things, because he has ready access to all the nice things he has ever experienced totally within his head.
posted by localroger at 2:58 PM on May 26, 2014 [4 favorites]

The Art of Memory
posted by thelonius at 4:06 PM on May 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

I learned about the mnemonic device of the "mental palace" in a cognitive science class called "Human Memory" that I took in college (while I was still a psych major and had to take classes like that). It's true that the method of loci is one of several useful devices that a person can use to enhance his recall.

However, that is *not* the use Hannibal and Will were discussing while they were burning the patient notes. They were using the mental palace as a *metaphor* for the preservation of memory, and of a constant sense of self within oneself regardless of changes of circumstances. Seeing it as simply a mnemonic device and hearing the term literally or simply as psych jargon misses the primary point of the scene, which is about how much people are capable and willing to change or become something new. This entire episode, and maybe the entire show, is a meditation on that theme. They are literally burning their history together as they discuss the mental palace, and Hannibal is telling Will that he will never forget, and that all the bad things that Will remembers about Hannibal or that Hannibal has done *still* are inside of Hannibal, they're still places where Hannibal can live, and Will acknowledges that.

Then, later, Will chooses to try and keep Hannibal out of exile in his mental palace by warning Hannibal that "they know," apparently expecting that Hannibal will leave him/everything behind -- even though Hannibal *told* Will in that notes burning scene that he always carries his mental palace with him. That's also an allusion to Satan and Paradise Lost, I think. Both those men carry their hells (and their heavens, like Will's quiet stream) with them.
posted by rue72 at 4:44 PM on May 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

This is one of those times when you just have to understand they shortcutted something they probably didn't mean to and shouldn't have. It's not a "mental palace," it's a memory palace, and it's a very important distinction. Series Hannibal may be fanfic by traditional standards but it is, in fact, rooted in Harris' source material and this is one place where I think you have to trust that Fuller means what Harris wrote, not the impression you got from what he had to cram into 45 minutes to get the show in on budget.

It's really important, because if you break this you break pretty much everything about Hannibal's character that isn't firmly from Red Dragon and SOTL. And considering that we're about to go into what BF calls a mashup of novel Hannibal and Hannibal Rising, it's probably best not to diverge from Harris except in those ways Fuller has explicitly told us we should, such as not counting Hannibal Rising as canon.

NB Fuller has said novel Hannibal was flawed and he didn't like the ending, but he's said nothing that contradicts the way Harris put the Memory Palace in the story.
posted by localroger at 4:56 PM on May 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yeah, he made a different word choice but it's very clear IMO that they mean memory palace the way we understand it from Harris' writing and also from some other depictions. That said, I do think on the show it will end up functioning as well as a way for Hannibal to see himself in circumstances other than the deplorable-to-him ones he finds himself in.

This show is all about conveying the primary characters' current headspace visually, and there's just no way they won't take full advantage of that with the memory palace stuff, I think.
posted by sparkletone at 5:35 PM on May 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think the way it will go on screen is that we might see an encounter between imprisoned Hannibal and someone else from Hannibal's standpoint as taking place in his office, with Hannibal dressed normally. But from the other person's perspective, with the actors in the exact same positions, Hannibal is in a jumpsuit behind a wall or in a cage, and it's a prison.

But the important thing to understand is that this does not affect the conversation. It's not a substitution of fantasy for reality in the ways that matter. Hannibal knows he is in prison, wearing the jumpsuit, etc. But he will choose to perceive the event differently. This doesn't mean he is retreating into a false fantasy reality. It means he is deliberately choosing how to perceive his sensorium. It doesn't really matter whether he is talking to, say, alana in his office or in the jail if the information is conveyed correctly between them. She doesn't need to know that he chooses to see his office instead of the cell she sees.
posted by localroger at 5:46 PM on May 26, 2014

Are we talking about antisocial as a psychiatric diagnosis? I was talking about the two different meanings of antisocial in everyday use.
posted by jeather at 5:48 PM on May 26, 2014

I'm pretty sure I don't want to visit most of the rooms in Hannibal's memory palace, beautifully appointed though they must be.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:26 PM on May 26, 2014

thelonius, I was not aware of Philip K Dick's definition of reality, thank you!

Talk about creating inauthentic humans.

And since the word empathy empathy empathy gets bandied about on this show so much, that tells me that Alana's use of the hand holding gesture during interrogations is her version of the Voight-Kampff test. Which brings us back to Alana's characterisation origin story, "A Good Man Is Hard To Find," where the Grandmother takes the Misfit's hand, he recoils at the rush of emotion it causes him, and he shoots her. In that story, though, the Grandmother's empathy sows the seeds of salvation in the Misfit's heart. Here, Will wants to believe he influenced Hannibal for the better, but he didn't, as Hannibal makes clear in the most painful way possible.

Remember the last time we see Hannibal touch Alana is when he kisses her hands and smells gunpowder, and he then lowers their hands? Pretty sure that's the final nail in the coffin for her trust in him.

Bedelia, on the plane, is wearing a combination of black and dark burgundy. Hope springs.
posted by tel3path at 1:29 AM on May 27, 2014 [3 favorites]

And Mark Watches has put up his recap.
posted by jeather at 11:56 AM on May 27, 2014

For all the talk of Hannibal's memory palace being "good enough," the Murder Wizard himself makes it clear that he knows it's, at best, a secondary comfort, one that would work out about as well for him as the Miltonic Satan's claim that "The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven."

More fundamentally, is there any character on this show less capable of self-sufficient happiness than Hannibal? His existence is literally and figuratively cannibalistic; for all his gifts, for all his efforts, the best he can do is make others into extensions of himself or, failing that, make them suffer. Will was absolutely right when he pointed out that Hannibal is deeply lonely.

I actually think Bedelia is wrong in the same way Hannibal is wrong; she mistakes his elaborate ruses to escape that loneliness for "whimsy" and the almost narcotic effect he seems to achieve in temporarily escaping it for "self-congratulation." But the hit always wears off, or reality always intrudes to spoil the fantasy, and he needs to go consume someone or something else.

Hannibal has immense power over a fallen world, but his use of that power is driven by an impossible desire for something better than that world, something he can only fail to make on his own. So he settles for an endless series of crude mockeries and then tries to convince everyone else he's succeeded.
posted by kewb at 1:57 PM on May 27, 2014 [6 favorites]

I'll have to watch the Hannibal/Bedelia scenes again, with a view to their being arch game-playing.

If the Bedelia bit comes from the novel (which seems likely), is the consensus that the du Maurier bit is a reference to George du Maurier (and his novel Trilby) rather than his granddaughter Daphne?
posted by Grangousier at 2:04 PM on May 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

(That is to say, her first name suggests she's also a serial killer, but her last name suggests she's under Hannibal's spell. I prefer the former, but I would.)
posted by Grangousier at 2:07 PM on May 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

Also, to jump off of my old "Hannibal is about recuperating Faust from its prison inside The Picture of Dorian Gray" idea from an earlier thread, this season is really about the limit of aesthetic power. Both the climactic episode and the finale give us the exhaustion of Hannibal's true power,the aesthetic, the mere representation, in different ways. First, we get Mason Verger, who wears on his face -- or what's left of it -- the reality of what he and Hannibal both do.

Then, in the finale, we get Hannibal without the mask, Hannibal minus what makes his way of doing things obviously tempting. An artless Hannibal is simply a blood-drenched monster. I think it's worth noting that Bedelia, who does seem to say "yes," never really sees Hannibal without his person suit. In more literal fashion, she isn't there for either the bloody events at Lecter House or even for Hannibal in his transparent murder-suit, the inversion of his featureless, malign interior -- the terror of the abyss as costuming choice -- and his posh, rich, and inviting exterior.

She can say yes because all she's really seen are the beautiful, intoxicating elements of Hannibal's aesthetic, the portrait of himself with which he has replaced his true face, with a few tantalizing peeks at the true face hidden away elsewhere. (Well, and of course someone named for a horror/suspense/modern Gothic writer's going to fall for Hannibal; that's what happened to the horror/suspense/modern Gothic writer who created him!)

Will got Goethe's Faust, the opera with the hard-won, sad redemption at the end. I suspect Bedelia's going to get Marlowe' Doctor Faustus or, this being Europe, perhaps Thomas Mann's.
posted by kewb at 2:13 PM on May 27, 2014

To Bedelia each marriage was a pleasure cruise and she an amiable passenger, always amused and amusing, always happy to share the fun, uninhibited by the fear that any relationship would grow too important, because she knew the cruise would soon be over, the relationship severed, and she would be free to embark on a new journey.

This sounds a lot more like Hannibal than Bedelia du Maurier, who's actually more in the husband role from the novel, except that she chooses complicity. I don't see that ending well for her.
posted by kewb at 2:20 PM on May 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's not clear what Bedelia has really chosen, here. We shall see.
posted by tel3path at 2:35 PM on May 27, 2014 [3 favorites]

Bedelia, I think, encompasses a lot of media references. She can't be pinned down to just one.

There's the novel (which I hadn't heard of--nice find whoever dug that up!).

There's the classic ice-cold Hitchcock blonde, which she is a perfect example of. That ties in with the large number of Hitchcock references in the show. The double. The wrong man. The perfect murder. The charming criminal. The mysterious blonde. Alana falling from the window is right out of Vertigo.

Then her name brings up both George and Daphne du Maurier. The first gave us Svengali (and inadvertently, via the play, the trilby style hat...). The latter had three works adapted into films by Alfred Hitchcock: Jamaica Inn, Rebecca, and The Birds.

When Bedelia looks at Hannibal, will she see a raven head where Will saw the Wendigo and Mason saw a hog?
posted by lovecrafty at 10:33 PM on May 27, 2014 [2 favorites]

Has Hannibal Become A Villain Sue?
posted by homunculus at 10:42 PM on May 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wonder if there is a Scrabble set somewhere with the letters that spell CLARICE STARLING picked out so they can try things out once in awhile.

SCARLET GILCRAIN

ALICE CLARSTRING

GRACE SCRALLITIN

i don't watch this show i just really like anagrams
posted by kagredon at 4:30 AM on May 28, 2014 [3 favorites]

Bedelia, I think, encompasses a lot of media references. She can't be pinned down to just one.

Like, am I the only person for whom this is the first thing I think of when I hear "Bedelia"? I think all you people with your 100 year old novels are just frontin.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:00 AM on May 28, 2014 [9 favorites]

From the Villain Sue post: The FBI froze his passport. I would think they'd at least try to do the same with his assets. Doesn't matter, he's still on a plane, in First Class, to somewhere they speak French. Passport, shmassport.

It is canon from novel Hannibal that at this point Hannibal had already been stashing alternate ID and funds caches in case of legal difficulty; he retrieves one to flee Florence when Mason's goons track him down. Remember that Hannibal has the advantage of knowing all along that he's a criminal and he might need to lam it one day.
posted by localroger at 7:43 AM on May 28, 2014 [4 favorites]

Has Hannibal Become A Villain Sue?

LOL at 'become'. Hannibal has always been a Villain Sue.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 8:49 AM on May 28, 2014

I'd actually argue he's much more a Villain Sue or whatever in the books and later movies than he is in this show. This Hannibal makes mistakes. Things don't work out the way he wants and it's in large part his own damn fault. Dumb luck (basically) is the only reason he manages to cotton on to Will's betrayal in enough time to effect an escape. Were it not for that, his hubris and desire to have this connection he sees with Will make for a massive vulnerability that was almost his undoing.

And I think it's likely that even that escape, despite the first class air fair and champagne, is not going to prove as enjoyable to him as his life in Baltimore before the bloodbath that ended this season. The arc of Hannibal's life is not in an upswing right now.
posted by sparkletone at 9:03 AM on May 28, 2014 [4 favorites]

I don't think he's really a Villain Sue. The plot is warped around him -- but he's the protagonist, or the main antagonist, the show is named after him. Of course the plot will warp around the guy who is in the middle of the characters, killing and eating them; it doesn't do it excessively. He has magic murder wizard skills, he's very bright, he's good at convincing people to do things, he's a great cook, he has impressive knife-throwing abilities, his calligraphy is gorgeous, he's very rich -- but he's really not that far out in the range of Fictional People Who Can Do Everything.

Also he could have escaped if he had not clued in to Freddie still being alive had he just listened to Will. And in that case he might not have been so angry at Will that he would have stuck around just to punish him.
posted by jeather at 9:32 AM on May 28, 2014

And of course, HE HAS HAD AN ASSISTANT THIS WHOLE TIME.

(I was actually right about that - I was wrong about who it was. I thought it was Miriam Lass.)
posted by tel3path at 9:35 AM on May 28, 2014 [1 favorite]

I hope they take us back to Miriam Lass at some point next season to see how she copes with all of this. Especially if Jack dies, which would be a weird and interesting inversion for her.

Also, I don't remember who suggested a from-the-beginning rewatch since the show is now on hiatus (or he-ate-us, as Tumblr likes to call it), but I'm game. I feel like Fuller has had this conclusion to Will & Hannibal's friendship in mind for a long time, and I'd like to see how he leads up to it now I know what's going on.
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:41 AM on May 28, 2014

Yeah we where thinking when the DVDs become available or something like that?

The fact that we have a known endgame makes me so much more comfortable and confident with this show. I think we've seen Hannibal at his Peak somewhere in Mid-this-season it's all downhill from here.
posted by The Whelk at 9:53 AM on May 28, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think we've seen Hannibal at his Peak somewhere in Mid-this-season it's all downhill from here.

I sort of thought, when we saw that tree guy, "this is Hannibal's Murder Magnum Opus." Will he ever beat that one for sheer creativity and horribleness?
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:13 AM on May 28, 2014 [3 favorites]

What the flick?! with Bryan Fuller.
posted by Pendragon at 10:36 AM on May 28, 2014

I thought it was Miriam Lass.

Maybe he freed Miriam only when he gained Abigail as a fresh, young (and two-armed) new assistant?
posted by sparklemotion at 12:02 PM on May 28, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's all for the best because it is...
posted by sparkletone at 12:52 PM on May 28, 2014 [1 favorite]

Alternate Ending
posted by The Whelk at 7:56 PM on May 28, 2014 [9 favorites]

a fresh, young (and two-armed) new assistant?

One-eared, but less of a handicap when you're hauling human bodies around.
posted by localroger at 5:08 AM on May 29, 2014

Have we seen Miriam since she shot Chilton?
posted by thelonius at 7:34 PM on June 1, 2014

Have we seen Miriam since she shot Chilton?

Nope, and I think it's my single biggest complaint about this season.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:42 PM on June 1, 2014

Anna Chlumsky's contract with Veep basically meant they could only have her for one episode. They allowed a second episode "only if she didn't speak" - which is how we got the shot of her down the hole.

Hollywood contracts are weird.
posted by crossoverman at 7:56 PM on June 1, 2014 [6 favorites]

Nope, and I think it's my single biggest complaint about this season.

Well if they brought her back they would have a difficult time skirting around the fact that Chilton is not actually dead. Keeping her off-screen makes it easier not to play that card yet.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:50 PM on June 1, 2014

So I'm still hung up on thinking the number of portions of leg he served up back in episode 2 says something about the size of his Murder Family, which I'm estimating as Hannibal, Bedelia, Abigail and Miriam. Miriam needs help cutting up her food, and Abigail can't hear the person sitting to one side of her. Imagine the tense dinner conversation.
posted by Grangousier at 12:19 PM on June 2, 2014

oh my god this is perfection
posted by The Whelk at 2:09 PM on June 2, 2014

oh my god this is perfection

[cheeseburger] "Lost count . . . it's in the low hundreds" ha ha haha
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:46 PM on June 2, 2014

Cooking with Hannibal Supercut
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:14 PM on June 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

I’m Looking For an FBI Profiler Who Really Gets Me
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:17 AM on July 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Conspicuous Consumption: The Socioeconomics of Hannibal
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:49 PM on July 26, 2014

Spoilers for season three!
posted by MsVader at 8:16 AM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]

My husband and I finally got caught up.

WTF. Did *anyone* except Hannibal and his therapist survive the season finale???

My husband is worried that next season is just going to be the two of them on the run -- although I've pointed out to him that in this show, no one is confirmed dead until we see their corpse either on the autopsy table or mutilated and on display.

So, I'm not giving up hope that Jack, Alana, Will, and Abigail will all make it. But I realize that they'll probably kill off at least one of them because everyone surviving that level of carnage is too unrealistic even for this show's on-again off-again relationship with reality.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:20 PM on August 30, 2014

this show's on-again off-again relationship with reality.

When has it been on, exactly?
posted by jeather at 7:10 PM on August 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

My percentage bets on finale survival:

Will - 100%
Jack - 70%
Alana - 60%
Abigail - 20%
posted by yellowbinder at 10:04 PM on August 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

this show's on-again off-again relationship with reality.

When has it been on, exactly?

Dogs are real animals that exist.

That's about all.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:19 PM on August 31, 2014 [3 favorites]

Gillian Anderson is a series regular for next season. Not that there were many options left once he killed everyone else.
posted by jeather at 1:33 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hannibal - Season 3 Trailer (Sneak Peek)
posted by homunculus at 6:09 PM on January 24, 2015 [3 favorites]

We're screaming about it, and the casting news, so. Much.
posted by The Whelk at 6:29 PM on January 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Here's hoping we get an influx of LoTR and True Blood fans...
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:23 AM on January 26, 2015

But I still want the word on Chilton. And Miriam!
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:23 AM on January 26, 2015

But I still want the word on Chilton

Aforementioned casting news can/has answered this one for you to the extent such things can answer it.
posted by sparkletone at 12:08 PM on January 26, 2015

Resurrecting this ancient thread because jesus christ I died
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:47 PM on May 4, 2015 [3 favorites]

« Previous Episode | Next Episode »

« Older The Mindy Project: Danny and M... | Orphan Black: To Hound Nature ... Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments

FanFare

Hannibal: Mizumono
May 23, 2014 10:14 PM - Season 2, Episode 13 - Subscribe

Show Info

Tags

Recaps

Share

Hannibal: Mizumono May 23, 2014 10:14 PM - Season 2, Episode 13 - Subscribe

Show Info

Tags

Recaps

Share

Hannibal: Mizumono
May 23, 2014 10:14 PM - Season 2, Episode 13 - Subscribe