Severance: Attila
February 20, 2025 6:07 PM - Season 2, Episode 6 - Subscribe
Bonds are tested. Mark continues on his path of discovery.
The implant isn’t gone. It wouldn’t fit in that syringe. She just “flooded” it with some high contrast juice.
I am opposed to brain surgery in basements where the patient just “holds still”.
posted by janell at 7:19 PM on February 20 [19 favorites]
I am opposed to brain surgery in basements where the patient just “holds still”.
posted by janell at 7:19 PM on February 20 [19 favorites]
But also, the meet-not-cute in the diner/restaurant was excruciating.
posted by janell at 7:20 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]
posted by janell at 7:20 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]
The implant isn’t gone. It wouldn’t fit in that syringe. She just “flooded” it with some high contrast juice.
Oh dang. This is the problem with having to pay attention to eating ice cream carefully while watching TV.
Well... I stand by the rest of my post!
posted by tzikeh at 7:22 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]
Oh dang. This is the problem with having to pay attention to eating ice cream carefully while watching TV.
Well... I stand by the rest of my post!
posted by tzikeh at 7:22 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]
The dinner at Attila's was excruciating. It was a night of excruciating meals. And oBurt did that Willy Wonka -esque fakeout that very first moment upon opening the door, so for the rest of the evening you never knew whether he was lying.
The Lutheran church teaches that faith/belief in Jesus is the sole path to heaven, right? What on earth has outie Burt done that he'd go so far as the severance procedure to save part of himself from damnation?
Also there was another Dylan G in Irving's list.
Helena has no rizz, y'all. And she said Hannah on purpose, maybe so Mark wouldn't catch on that she was following his case so closely?
posted by mochapickle at 7:29 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]
The Lutheran church teaches that faith/belief in Jesus is the sole path to heaven, right? What on earth has outie Burt done that he'd go so far as the severance procedure to save part of himself from damnation?
Also there was another Dylan G in Irving's list.
Helena has no rizz, y'all. And she said Hannah on purpose, maybe so Mark wouldn't catch on that she was following his case so closely?
posted by mochapickle at 7:29 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]
I used to joke that the major health event I had between S1 and 2 - tiny coils in my brain that stopped a bleeding aneurysm - was like the biggest Severance "cosplay" ever.
But not so funny seeing Mark's scans, procedure and collapse. Yikes.
Halfway through the episode I thought, yeah, with my luck, everybody else at work would be making sexy times and I'd be the one practicing my paperclip technique. (Not a euphemism.)
Britt Lower continues to slay in "both" her roles. What fcking game (no pun) is Helena playing, tho?
Lighting for the Helena sex scenes was red, with Helly, more blue.
I like innie Dylan and his wife, but that affair is weird and wild too. And what Fields said about a partner's innie having unprotected sex - waffle party, anyone?
posted by NorthernLite at 7:32 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]
But not so funny seeing Mark's scans, procedure and collapse. Yikes.
Halfway through the episode I thought, yeah, with my luck, everybody else at work would be making sexy times and I'd be the one practicing my paperclip technique. (Not a euphemism.)
Britt Lower continues to slay in "both" her roles. What fcking game (no pun) is Helena playing, tho?
Lighting for the Helena sex scenes was red, with Helly, more blue.
I like innie Dylan and his wife, but that affair is weird and wild too. And what Fields said about a partner's innie having unprotected sex - waffle party, anyone?
posted by NorthernLite at 7:32 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]
Paperclips, my sworn enemy. I will not make the mistake of using you backwards again! (practices, and immediately does it wrong)
"We shared vessels." "Like, in a wellness session?"
"Who the hell are you? ... It's a joke."
It's like a belated Valentine's Day episode, with a surprising amount of sexual tension and, uh, weirdness.
Helly's hair does look more red than Helena's. Dunno if it's lighting, color grading, or possibly wigs.
And Helena meeting with Outie Mark was ... complicated. Like, how inexperienced is she? Or has she just shielded her boyfriends from her parents?
I'd thought of the sex in the tent as being like sleeping with the wrong twin - informed consent being an issue - and now I'm thinking, oh, right, multiple personalities.
This week in Mad Science:
Leaving a note in case the Innie took the foreground might help.
Brain surgery where she wears a mask, and he doesn't, in a decidedly non-sterile basement
Like, that's the sort of thing that could kill someone! ... (Mark collapses)
Hello, John Noble, who you might know from Fringe, another show with ... odd science. I checked, and that was a new casting; he didn't play Cecil Fields in the season one finale.
We might be 2/3 through the season.
posted by Pronoiac at 7:45 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]
"We shared vessels." "Like, in a wellness session?"
"Who the hell are you? ... It's a joke."
It's like a belated Valentine's Day episode, with a surprising amount of sexual tension and, uh, weirdness.
Helly's hair does look more red than Helena's. Dunno if it's lighting, color grading, or possibly wigs.
And Helena meeting with Outie Mark was ... complicated. Like, how inexperienced is she? Or has she just shielded her boyfriends from her parents?
I'd thought of the sex in the tent as being like sleeping with the wrong twin - informed consent being an issue - and now I'm thinking, oh, right, multiple personalities.
This week in Mad Science:
Leaving a note in case the Innie took the foreground might help.
Brain surgery where she wears a mask, and he doesn't, in a decidedly non-sterile basement
Like, that's the sort of thing that could kill someone! ... (Mark collapses)
Hello, John Noble, who you might know from Fringe, another show with ... odd science. I checked, and that was a new casting; he didn't play Cecil Fields in the season one finale.
We might be 2/3 through the season.
posted by Pronoiac at 7:45 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]
(I wonder how many people will get that "frolic" tattoo IRL. Who WAS that sneaking through Irv's stuff?)
It’s Mr. Drummond. You see the tattoo when he is spying on Mark and Devon at Pip’s in the 2nd episode of this season.
posted by zsazsa at 8:57 PM on February 20 [12 favorites]
It’s Mr. Drummond. You see the tattoo when he is spying on Mark and Devon at Pip’s in the 2nd episode of this season.
posted by zsazsa at 8:57 PM on February 20 [12 favorites]
Sunshine of Your Love cover over the credits was Ella Fitzgerald, live at Montreux 1969.
So Lumon knows Irving will be out of his apartment so they can rifle through his stuff. Seems like Burt is still working for Lumon, just not in O&D. If he’s been there twenty years pre-dating the severed procedure, he may have architected a lot the Severed floor. Alternately, and likely IMO, Lumon is lying about the official timeline of its tech.
posted by mikepop at 9:01 PM on February 20 [15 favorites]
So Lumon knows Irving will be out of his apartment so they can rifle through his stuff. Seems like Burt is still working for Lumon, just not in O&D. If he’s been there twenty years pre-dating the severed procedure, he may have architected a lot the Severed floor. Alternately, and likely IMO, Lumon is lying about the official timeline of its tech.
posted by mikepop at 9:01 PM on February 20 [15 favorites]
2 more things:
Helena knows her innie had sex with Mark. Ugh, weird. Also, I think her obsession with Mark is very complicated, and related back to whatever Lumon is doing. Why did she deliberately refer to Gemma by the wrong name.
And what if Fields wasn't just drunk, but has some memory issues for another reason, also somehow related to severance.
posted by NorthernLite at 9:14 PM on February 20 [4 favorites]
Helena knows her innie had sex with Mark. Ugh, weird. Also, I think her obsession with Mark is very complicated, and related back to whatever Lumon is doing. Why did she deliberately refer to Gemma by the wrong name.
And what if Fields wasn't just drunk, but has some memory issues for another reason, also somehow related to severance.
posted by NorthernLite at 9:14 PM on February 20 [4 favorites]
Or Burt has really been working at Lumon for 20 years… meaning he worked there for at least 8 years before he was severed, meaning he’s a company man. So he may still be working for Lumon. He may have alerted Mr Drummond that Irving would be out for a few hours on the night of the dinner.
posted by umber vowel at 9:39 PM on February 20 [18 favorites]
posted by umber vowel at 9:39 PM on February 20 [18 favorites]
I think umber vowel has it - the 20years is true, and the dinner was a pretext, or at least an opportunity, to be sure that Irving was out of his apartment for few hours.
posted by janell at 9:43 PM on February 20 [11 favorites]
posted by janell at 9:43 PM on February 20 [11 favorites]
I think he worked for Lumon for 20 years and in the first 8 did something so bad that he knew he would go to hell for it.
posted by simonw at 10:05 PM on February 20 [34 favorites]
posted by simonw at 10:05 PM on February 20 [34 favorites]
Helena knows her innie had sex with Mark.
Does she know that ?
posted by Pendragon at 10:33 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]
Does she know that ?
posted by Pendragon at 10:33 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]
Does she know that ?
It's certainly quite possible that she might know, physically.
Changing the topic, Tramell Tillman continues to impress with his eye game, as well as that of his interlocutors. (Interoculars?)
By that I mean, Milchick is next level when it comes to saying things with his mouth but having entirely separate conversations with his eyes. Last week we saw it with Natalie where is eyes were saying, "Please sis, I am dying for some kind of lifeline here. Tell me I am not going crazy for feeling gaslighted." And Natalie's eyes responded, "I feel you brother, I really do. But you are on your own."
This week was on a whole other level with Miss Huang, "Don't think I don't see you, you little rat!" And Miss Huang's response, "Hell yeah I ratted you out. What are you gonna do about it, gramps? Jack, and shit." He won that little skirmish for now, but her defiant expression promised that she will betray him again at the earliest opportunity. Maybe he should've let her play her theramin after all.
posted by xigxag at 10:51 PM on February 20 [11 favorites]
It's certainly quite possible that she might know, physically.
Changing the topic, Tramell Tillman continues to impress with his eye game, as well as that of his interlocutors. (Interoculars?)
By that I mean, Milchick is next level when it comes to saying things with his mouth but having entirely separate conversations with his eyes. Last week we saw it with Natalie where is eyes were saying, "Please sis, I am dying for some kind of lifeline here. Tell me I am not going crazy for feeling gaslighted." And Natalie's eyes responded, "I feel you brother, I really do. But you are on your own."
This week was on a whole other level with Miss Huang, "Don't think I don't see you, you little rat!" And Miss Huang's response, "Hell yeah I ratted you out. What are you gonna do about it, gramps? Jack, and shit." He won that little skirmish for now, but her defiant expression promised that she will betray him again at the earliest opportunity. Maybe he should've let her play her theramin after all.
posted by xigxag at 10:51 PM on February 20 [11 favorites]
I like innie Dylan and his wife, but that affair is weird and wild too.
So, if the conclusion the church reached was that there were two souls, then it seems likely that affair would be considered extra marital. Less clear is whether an innie taking over full time for an outie is murder, but that seems to be the ethical dillemma on offer for that thruple. And actually, now that I think about it, pretty much everyone in MDR is in some kind of "its complicated" status now.
But this also aligns with my previous post about the Eagans obtaining moral purity by outsourcing all their sins to their innie on the severed floor. If an innie can go to heaven, they can also go to hell. Kind of like a modern version of the indulgences Martin Luther (of Lutheranism fame) railed against, and would seem to indicate that the Eagans have corrupted the (a?) church in order to buy indulgences.
I did not expect total deflation and resignedness to be Helly's response to finding out Mark had sex with Helena. But what a turnaround wit her and Mark being straightforward about what they want and going for it
Just before that, in the bathroom scene was a weird focus shift around Helly. Mark doesn't just go out of focus though, he also stretches, in a way not too dissimilar from the elevator scenes. Was there something meaningful about it? Or just trying to convey a sense of vertigo induced by the emotional shock?
Mark's brain switching is very much a horror movie
One thing I'm having trouble with here is causality. We are shown that innies and outies swap out twice a day. But somehow during reintegration sessions in his basement he's conversing with both Reghabi and Ms Huang simultaneously, which shouldn't be possible. The only consistent interpretation I can see for now is that he's accessing memories, but Huang shouldn't be able to respond as if he said something he couldn't have. I can't figure any way to have two Marks active at night.
I guess we'll have to see how the show chooses to reconcile this as Mark re-integrates for longer periods -- do the things outie Mark says on the severed floor "stick"? Or does nobody know it happened? They seem to be building up to a scene where outie Mark comes to while ... sharing vessels ... with Helena/Helly.
posted by pwnguin at 11:05 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]
So, if the conclusion the church reached was that there were two souls, then it seems likely that affair would be considered extra marital. Less clear is whether an innie taking over full time for an outie is murder, but that seems to be the ethical dillemma on offer for that thruple. And actually, now that I think about it, pretty much everyone in MDR is in some kind of "its complicated" status now.
But this also aligns with my previous post about the Eagans obtaining moral purity by outsourcing all their sins to their innie on the severed floor. If an innie can go to heaven, they can also go to hell. Kind of like a modern version of the indulgences Martin Luther (of Lutheranism fame) railed against, and would seem to indicate that the Eagans have corrupted the (a?) church in order to buy indulgences.
I did not expect total deflation and resignedness to be Helly's response to finding out Mark had sex with Helena. But what a turnaround wit her and Mark being straightforward about what they want and going for it
Just before that, in the bathroom scene was a weird focus shift around Helly. Mark doesn't just go out of focus though, he also stretches, in a way not too dissimilar from the elevator scenes. Was there something meaningful about it? Or just trying to convey a sense of vertigo induced by the emotional shock?
Mark's brain switching is very much a horror movie
One thing I'm having trouble with here is causality. We are shown that innies and outies swap out twice a day. But somehow during reintegration sessions in his basement he's conversing with both Reghabi and Ms Huang simultaneously, which shouldn't be possible. The only consistent interpretation I can see for now is that he's accessing memories, but Huang shouldn't be able to respond as if he said something he couldn't have. I can't figure any way to have two Marks active at night.
I guess we'll have to see how the show chooses to reconcile this as Mark re-integrates for longer periods -- do the things outie Mark says on the severed floor "stick"? Or does nobody know it happened? They seem to be building up to a scene where outie Mark comes to while ... sharing vessels ... with Helena/Helly.
posted by pwnguin at 11:05 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]
I don't like my habit of rushing to this thread as soon as I finish an episode; in general I'd like to let things percolate a bit before I deliver theories.
That said: I'm starting to come around to the idea that the severance procedure is not a great idea.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:11 PM on February 20 [28 favorites]
That said: I'm starting to come around to the idea that the severance procedure is not a great idea.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:11 PM on February 20 [28 favorites]
I mean, Christ! Talk about a literal torment nexus.
Reghabi is reckless as hell and it's bugging me. She seems to understand why Mark is singularly important to severance, yet she's trying to speedrun this thing. I think she thinks that, if she's too aggressive and Mark dies, the Super Mario Bros. music will play and he’ll still have two lives left.
I understand why Mark wants to conceal his reintegration from Devon. I don't understand why, immediately after his encounter at the restaurant, he storms home and tells Reghabi he wants to move forward and somehow doesn't tell her that he just got low-key harassed by Helena Eagan.
I also wonder how much Lumon knows about reintegration. If they knew to look out for the signs — for instance, nosebleeds and a voracious appetite, apparently — then it'd make Reghabi even sloppier. I find it hard to believe that Lumon wouldn't know anything about it; when Helena remarked at how much Mark had eaten at the restaurant, I found that extremely menacing.
But in general, it feels like we're getting great stuff on all the subplots (three different flavors of cross-severance infidelity this week!) while someone is holding down the fast-forward button on the main plot. Mark is driving at full speed toward a wall and I don't really know how he's going to get himself out of this pickle. This feels like the sort of resolution you write if you think you're not going to get a third season — and since that isn't true, I can only hope that they're telling a longer and richer story than the one I've been expecting.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:35 PM on February 20 [4 favorites]
Reghabi is reckless as hell and it's bugging me. She seems to understand why Mark is singularly important to severance, yet she's trying to speedrun this thing. I think she thinks that, if she's too aggressive and Mark dies, the Super Mario Bros. music will play and he’ll still have two lives left.
I understand why Mark wants to conceal his reintegration from Devon. I don't understand why, immediately after his encounter at the restaurant, he storms home and tells Reghabi he wants to move forward and somehow doesn't tell her that he just got low-key harassed by Helena Eagan.
I also wonder how much Lumon knows about reintegration. If they knew to look out for the signs — for instance, nosebleeds and a voracious appetite, apparently — then it'd make Reghabi even sloppier. I find it hard to believe that Lumon wouldn't know anything about it; when Helena remarked at how much Mark had eaten at the restaurant, I found that extremely menacing.
But in general, it feels like we're getting great stuff on all the subplots (three different flavors of cross-severance infidelity this week!) while someone is holding down the fast-forward button on the main plot. Mark is driving at full speed toward a wall and I don't really know how he's going to get himself out of this pickle. This feels like the sort of resolution you write if you think you're not going to get a third season — and since that isn't true, I can only hope that they're telling a longer and richer story than the one I've been expecting.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:35 PM on February 20 [4 favorites]
pwnguin: "The only consistent interpretation I can see for now is that he's accessing memories, but Huang shouldn't be able to respond as if he said something he couldn't have. I can't figure any way to have two Marks active at night."
I think that was just a bit of stylistic license. A lot of the effects of reintegration don't make much surface sense; I suspect that they'd rather be abstract and aesthetic in those moments than imbue them with neurological or psychological fidelity. (What stupidly big words. Grow up, savetheclocktower. Grow up. Grow up. Grow up. Grow. Grow. Grow.)
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:52 PM on February 20 [14 favorites]
I think that was just a bit of stylistic license. A lot of the effects of reintegration don't make much surface sense; I suspect that they'd rather be abstract and aesthetic in those moments than imbue them with neurological or psychological fidelity. (What stupidly big words. Grow up, savetheclocktower. Grow up. Grow up. Grow up. Grow. Grow. Grow.)
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:52 PM on February 20 [14 favorites]
One thing I'm having trouble with here is causality. We are shown that innies and outies swap out twice a day. But somehow during reintegration sessions in his basement he's conversing with both Reghabi and Ms Huang simultaneously, which shouldn't be possible. The only consistent interpretation I can see for now is that he's accessing memories, but Huang shouldn't be able to respond as if he said something he couldn't have. I can't figure any way to have two Marks active at night.
I think the only way it makes sense is that he’s accessing memories. I guess that we’re watching whatever the later-in-time version is, so the office infirmity scene was entirely some kind of memory as we saw it. Maybe he really did glitch out when he was there, but it was some other hallucination instead? They’ve definitely made it difficult to trust anything that Mark is experiencing.
(I’m so happy I’ve finally caught up to the latest episode. I’ve been enjoying reading these conversations so much as I’ve been catching up!)
posted by montag2k at 11:54 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]
I think the only way it makes sense is that he’s accessing memories. I guess that we’re watching whatever the later-in-time version is, so the office infirmity scene was entirely some kind of memory as we saw it. Maybe he really did glitch out when he was there, but it was some other hallucination instead? They’ve definitely made it difficult to trust anything that Mark is experiencing.
(I’m so happy I’ve finally caught up to the latest episode. I’ve been enjoying reading these conversations so much as I’ve been catching up!)
posted by montag2k at 11:54 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]
I think that was just a bit of stylistic license.
That's what I assume as well. Either that or Mark is retroactively reconstructing the past (Huang) memories such that they match up with his contemporary (Reghabi) memories. Similar to the way that you might hear a sound in real life while you are dreaming, and while remaining asleep, you retroactively alter the past of your dream so that the sound seems like it organically arose from the dream narrative.
The only other thing I can think of is something I sincerely hope is not the case, that the "outie" world is really just an alternate "innie" world, both of which exist on a server, and there is no real timeflow to speak of. It would make a kind of sense in explaining certain anomalies:
1) The outie world (Kier PE) is just weird and seems much unlike our real world.
2) Where is everybody? We're told that Lumon employs so many people, but the lobby of the building is very sparsely occupied, and the narrow elevator with its staggered entries/exits doesn't seem nearly capacious enough to move all of those people in and out from even just Optics & Design, much less the entirety of the severed floor.
3) The business with Burt working 20 years doesn't match up with what we were told about the severed floor. For that matter, the 882 quarters of Lumon's existence don't match up with what we're told about real world Lumon history either.
4) Those weird constructed animatronics in the ORTBO would be outrageously expensive for a real world retreat, not so for a virtual one. And the problem of how the outies traveled to and from the retreat is solved if their world is virtualized as well.
Anyway, I really prefer chalking it up to stylistic license and letting certain aspects of the mystery just remain mysterious.
posted by xigxag at 12:59 AM on February 21 [3 favorites]
That's what I assume as well. Either that or Mark is retroactively reconstructing the past (Huang) memories such that they match up with his contemporary (Reghabi) memories. Similar to the way that you might hear a sound in real life while you are dreaming, and while remaining asleep, you retroactively alter the past of your dream so that the sound seems like it organically arose from the dream narrative.
The only other thing I can think of is something I sincerely hope is not the case, that the "outie" world is really just an alternate "innie" world, both of which exist on a server, and there is no real timeflow to speak of. It would make a kind of sense in explaining certain anomalies:
1) The outie world (Kier PE) is just weird and seems much unlike our real world.
2) Where is everybody? We're told that Lumon employs so many people, but the lobby of the building is very sparsely occupied, and the narrow elevator with its staggered entries/exits doesn't seem nearly capacious enough to move all of those people in and out from even just Optics & Design, much less the entirety of the severed floor.
3) The business with Burt working 20 years doesn't match up with what we were told about the severed floor. For that matter, the 882 quarters of Lumon's existence don't match up with what we're told about real world Lumon history either.
4) Those weird constructed animatronics in the ORTBO would be outrageously expensive for a real world retreat, not so for a virtual one. And the problem of how the outies traveled to and from the retreat is solved if their world is virtualized as well.
Anyway, I really prefer chalking it up to stylistic license and letting certain aspects of the mystery just remain mysterious.
posted by xigxag at 12:59 AM on February 21 [3 favorites]
savetheclocktower But in general, it feels like we're getting great stuff on all the subplots (three different flavors of cross-severance infidelity this week!) while someone is holding down the fast-forward button on the main plot
Something that I respect and adore about this show is the storytelling balance among the ensemble cast. I am never disappointed when we shift from the story/viewpoint of one character to another, because I'm invested in every one of them.
And man the interiority of this episode was so beautiful, enough to make you cry. After all the awkwardness among characters--Burt and Irving, Mark and Helly, Dylan and Gretchen--so gratifying to see love expressed and with explicit consent. (Well, the jury's still out on outie Burt's motivations, but I have hope because I love Burt&Irving so much, and also because Fields himself brought a whole other level of compassion and open-mindedness to the innie/outie conundrum.)
posted by torticat at 1:22 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
Something that I respect and adore about this show is the storytelling balance among the ensemble cast. I am never disappointed when we shift from the story/viewpoint of one character to another, because I'm invested in every one of them.
And man the interiority of this episode was so beautiful, enough to make you cry. After all the awkwardness among characters--Burt and Irving, Mark and Helly, Dylan and Gretchen--so gratifying to see love expressed and with explicit consent. (Well, the jury's still out on outie Burt's motivations, but I have hope because I love Burt&Irving so much, and also because Fields himself brought a whole other level of compassion and open-mindedness to the innie/outie conundrum.)
posted by torticat at 1:22 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
I have hope because I love Burt&Irving so much
Having said that, I have to admit that another reason to suspect that Fields was correct about the Lumon timing, and that Burt was lying, is that Fields mentioned a time the two of them got together with Burt's "Lumon partner." Presumably post-severance Burt didn't have any "partners" at Lumon? I mean, ones that outie Burt would remember?
As has been suggested above, it's possible that pre-severance Burt did some horrible Lumon-related things that made him deserving of hell. I took something different from that conversation though--I thought that when Burt admitted he had been a "scoundrel" in his past, he meant he'd been a serial philanderer. I thought that might have been why he and Fields had decided severance would be a good idea--so that Burt's work life (where he fooled around) could be separate from, and not cause disruption to, his home life with Fields. Fields did not seem disturbed by the possibility that innie-Burt might have had a relationship with Irving (except for the safe-sex question).
My takeaway was that, because of Burt's prior infidelities, the two of them had decided on a kind of severance-enabled "open relationship." And/or a kind of self-imposed don't-ask-don't-tell type of thing?
posted by torticat at 1:40 AM on February 21 [6 favorites]
Having said that, I have to admit that another reason to suspect that Fields was correct about the Lumon timing, and that Burt was lying, is that Fields mentioned a time the two of them got together with Burt's "Lumon partner." Presumably post-severance Burt didn't have any "partners" at Lumon? I mean, ones that outie Burt would remember?
As has been suggested above, it's possible that pre-severance Burt did some horrible Lumon-related things that made him deserving of hell. I took something different from that conversation though--I thought that when Burt admitted he had been a "scoundrel" in his past, he meant he'd been a serial philanderer. I thought that might have been why he and Fields had decided severance would be a good idea--so that Burt's work life (where he fooled around) could be separate from, and not cause disruption to, his home life with Fields. Fields did not seem disturbed by the possibility that innie-Burt might have had a relationship with Irving (except for the safe-sex question).
My takeaway was that, because of Burt's prior infidelities, the two of them had decided on a kind of severance-enabled "open relationship." And/or a kind of self-imposed don't-ask-don't-tell type of thing?
posted by torticat at 1:40 AM on February 21 [6 favorites]
Of course Fields collects Danish pepper mills. Of course he does.
posted by Stanczyk at 5:21 AM on February 21 [12 favorites]
posted by Stanczyk at 5:21 AM on February 21 [12 favorites]
I think Burt is basically a femme fatale. I suspect he may not even be severed (and wonder how we could tell, at this point). iIrving would not have been able to see the warning signs, I think, he was too smitten. I’m holding out hope that love does not transcend severance and that oIrving will be cautious.
posted by eirias at 5:33 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
posted by eirias at 5:33 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
Milchick’s office decor is so spare, so enviably cool. I could swear the photograph behind him is Jökulsárlón. And I just noticed that he seems to have a sculpture of the rabbit-duck illusion.
posted by eirias at 5:44 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
posted by eirias at 5:44 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
Kier, PA: where it's always winter and never Christmas.
posted by orrnyereg at 6:03 AM on February 21 [16 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 6:03 AM on February 21 [16 favorites]
That Chinese Restaurant scene was some Single White Female shit.
posted by whuppy at 6:04 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 6:04 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]
I'm curious to see what happens with Irving now that Beardo McEagan has infiltrated his hidey hole. Burt is bad, bad news. The religious soul angle was unexpected and cool.
Helena diner scene was weeeeird. Same w/ iDylan's affair with his outie wife. Super sad, actually, because oDylan needs love and now isn't getting it.
Very cool how they use a zoom lens to flatten Milchick's face whenever he is feeling threatened or vulnerable.
A big Q for me is, now that Mark is rapidly reintegrating, and since Ms. Huang seemed to know the signs of reintegration (nosebleed, hallucinations), how the writers are going to keep him involved on the severance floor for S3. Or is the big reveal going to be that the town (state?) of Kier is also a severed area, and there are doors in trees that lead to labs and stuff? Is NoThInG rEaL?
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:13 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]
Helena diner scene was weeeeird. Same w/ iDylan's affair with his outie wife. Super sad, actually, because oDylan needs love and now isn't getting it.
Very cool how they use a zoom lens to flatten Milchick's face whenever he is feeling threatened or vulnerable.
A big Q for me is, now that Mark is rapidly reintegrating, and since Ms. Huang seemed to know the signs of reintegration (nosebleed, hallucinations), how the writers are going to keep him involved on the severance floor for S3. Or is the big reveal going to be that the town (state?) of Kier is also a severed area, and there are doors in trees that lead to labs and stuff? Is NoThInG rEaL?
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:13 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]
The name of the Chinese restaurant is "ZUFU" which is Mandarin for "paternal grandfather". Kier has been referenced as "The Grandfather" previously.
posted by mikepop at 6:15 AM on February 21 [23 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 6:15 AM on February 21 [23 favorites]
I'm sure there's wheels within wheels but Helena could just be having a stupid schoolgirl crush.
posted by whuppy at 6:26 AM on February 21 [8 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 6:26 AM on February 21 [8 favorites]
I'm surprised Milchick turned over supervisory duties just so he could practice his paper-clipping. Seems like the sort of thing he could have worked on from home. I also thought Miss Huang would have flexed her temporary supervisory powers a bit more and noticed that Mark and Helly were barely at their desks — bathroom meetings, Helly sitting in the hallway alone, hall pass, etc.
With Mark is so close to finishing Cold Harbor I would think they would be watching/pushing a bit more.
Another episode without Harmony Cobel — I'm hoping this means there will be an especially dramatic return!
posted by mikepop at 6:33 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]
With Mark is so close to finishing Cold Harbor I would think they would be watching/pushing a bit more.
Another episode without Harmony Cobel — I'm hoping this means there will be an especially dramatic return!
posted by mikepop at 6:33 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]
I think Ms Huang knew the signs of head trauma, not necessarily reintegration. Burt is an amazing character but yeah I'm sad to say it seems like he must be a long-term Lumon guy ... it's very interesting that their church led him to Lumon, especially if this predated public knowledge about the severance procedure ...
This leads me to something I've been wondering all season - if Lumon is so large and worldwide, why is the company structure so small? Why is Milchick having his performance review with Drummond, who also works directly with Helena, and conducts surveillance on our (current and former) MDR people? If Mark knows who Helena is in the Chinese restaurant, why didn't he recognize her in the parking lot last season? Why are they all so impulsive and unprofessional, when we're also aware that they're running this massive international corporation? I guess it's possible that their medical tech divisions are the real bread winners and run by other people, and the severance division is just the thing that the core cult-y family people are into?
We already know there's at least a few other departments on the severed floor, and I'm having a harder and harder time thinking that Milchick and Huang can be overseeing them all at once, especially considering that we only ever see them reacting to MDR's antics and talking about managing them specifically.
posted by destructive cactus at 6:40 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
This leads me to something I've been wondering all season - if Lumon is so large and worldwide, why is the company structure so small? Why is Milchick having his performance review with Drummond, who also works directly with Helena, and conducts surveillance on our (current and former) MDR people? If Mark knows who Helena is in the Chinese restaurant, why didn't he recognize her in the parking lot last season? Why are they all so impulsive and unprofessional, when we're also aware that they're running this massive international corporation? I guess it's possible that their medical tech divisions are the real bread winners and run by other people, and the severance division is just the thing that the core cult-y family people are into?
We already know there's at least a few other departments on the severed floor, and I'm having a harder and harder time thinking that Milchick and Huang can be overseeing them all at once, especially considering that we only ever see them reacting to MDR's antics and talking about managing them specifically.
posted by destructive cactus at 6:40 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
eirias: I think Burt is basically a femme fatale.
Oh man I wish Christopher Walken could read that - based on everything he's said about playing a character who finally "gets the girl" (or boy) for the very first time in his career, I think he'd be delighted to be called a femme fatale.
xigxag: Anyway, I really prefer chalking it up to stylistic license and letting certain aspects of the mystery just remain mysterious.
And important!
posted by tzikeh at 6:43 AM on February 21 [5 favorites]
Oh man I wish Christopher Walken could read that - based on everything he's said about playing a character who finally "gets the girl" (or boy) for the very first time in his career, I think he'd be delighted to be called a femme fatale.
xigxag: Anyway, I really prefer chalking it up to stylistic license and letting certain aspects of the mystery just remain mysterious.
And important!
posted by tzikeh at 6:43 AM on February 21 [5 favorites]
Why are they all so impulsive and unprofessional, when we're also aware that they're running this massive international corporation?
I'd actually put this in the "accurate" column unfortunately.
posted by mikepop at 6:48 AM on February 21 [18 favorites]
I'd actually put this in the "accurate" column unfortunately.
posted by mikepop at 6:48 AM on February 21 [18 favorites]
NorthernLite: And what Fields said about a partner's innie having unprotected sex - waffle party, anyone?
If the Eagans are outsourcing their sins to the severed floor, it makes sense they'd outsource a sin eater as well.
posted by tzikeh at 6:52 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
If the Eagans are outsourcing their sins to the severed floor, it makes sense they'd outsource a sin eater as well.
posted by tzikeh at 6:52 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
Oh jesus fucking christ the pilot is called "Good News About Hell" and we all thought it was a pun on either "work is hell" or on "Helly."
This unhinged "the Eagans believe that the severed non-person goes to hell while unsevered person goes to heaven" theory might have legs. And teeth.
posted by tzikeh at 7:17 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
This unhinged "the Eagans believe that the severed non-person goes to hell while unsevered person goes to heaven" theory might have legs. And teeth.
posted by tzikeh at 7:17 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
the severed non-person goes to hell while unsevered person goes to heaven
Based on the dinner party conversation it sounded like the exact opposite - Burt's outie is a "scoundrel" who is absolutely going to hell, which is why he agreed to be severed, so that his pure innie could go to heaven with Fields.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:24 AM on February 21 [9 favorites]
Based on the dinner party conversation it sounded like the exact opposite - Burt's outie is a "scoundrel" who is absolutely going to hell, which is why he agreed to be severed, so that his pure innie could go to heaven with Fields.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:24 AM on February 21 [9 favorites]
grumpybear69: Based on the dinner party conversation it sounded like the exact opposite
And again, I must remind myself never to eat while watching Severance for fear I will miss-remember important information just by looking down at my spoon for ONE FUCKING SECOND
Or not to post at all until I've watched it at least twice
BUT! Reverse what I said and now that is my unhinged theory.
posted by tzikeh at 7:27 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
And again, I must remind myself never to eat while watching Severance for fear I will miss-remember important information just by looking down at my spoon for ONE FUCKING SECOND
Or not to post at all until I've watched it at least twice
BUT! Reverse what I said and now that is my unhinged theory.
posted by tzikeh at 7:27 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
This leads me to something I've been wondering all season - if Lumon is so large and worldwide, why is the company structure so small? Why is Milchick having his performance review with Drummond, who also works directly with Helena, and conducts surveillance on our (current and former) MDR people? If Mark knows who Helena is in the Chinese restaurant, why didn't he recognize her in the parking lot last season? Why are they all so impulsive and unprofessional, when we're also aware that they're running this massive international corporation? I guess it's possible that their medical tech divisions are the real bread winners and run by other people, and the severance division is just the thing that the core cult-y family people are into?
I think the severance project / MDR (maybe, too) are super stratified due to the importance of the project(s). A lot of need to know setups, as well.
posted by Atreides at 7:36 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
I think the severance project / MDR (maybe, too) are super stratified due to the importance of the project(s). A lot of need to know setups, as well.
posted by Atreides at 7:36 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
Also where the hell is Ms. Cobel? She looms rather large in the opening credits, and yet we haven't seen her in a few episodes. Does anyone believe that the "Severance Advisory Council" is real? That kind of position would match how she's portrayed in the opening credits, but it seemed fishy, even to her, and she ultimately refused to go with Helena, so has she been reinstated in any capacity at this point?
posted by tzikeh at 7:42 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]
posted by tzikeh at 7:42 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]
BUT! Reverse what I said and now that is my unhinged theory.
They can both be true that you know :-)
The Eagans may be interested in buying their way to heaven, while Burt and Fields have a different application of the same principle.
posted by pwnguin at 7:45 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
They can both be true that you know :-)
The Eagans may be interested in buying their way to heaven, while Burt and Fields have a different application of the same principle.
posted by pwnguin at 7:45 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
Christopher Walken is interviewed on the latest episode of the official Severance podcast and it's unsurprisingly delightful.
I really enjoyed this recent TikTok about the lamps (as set props) they use in Severance.
posted by simonw at 8:23 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
I really enjoyed this recent TikTok about the lamps (as set props) they use in Severance.
posted by simonw at 8:23 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
That sequence, though, of Mark fleeing Helena at Zufu... half the lights in the sign are burnt out, so it's multiple shots of Mark going to and then sitting in his car, with a bright neon "FU" blazing in the background. Eff You, Helena, indeed.
posted by Lokheed at 8:51 AM on February 21 [5 favorites]
posted by Lokheed at 8:51 AM on February 21 [5 favorites]
I'm surprised Milchick turned over supervisory duties just so he could practice his paper-clipping. Seems like the sort of thing he could have worked on from home.
It seemed to me that he needed to do it at work, while likely being observed.
posted by cooker girl at 8:53 AM on February 21 [10 favorites]
It seemed to me that he needed to do it at work, while likely being observed.
posted by cooker girl at 8:53 AM on February 21 [10 favorites]
Also mentioned in the podcast is that we are at the halfway point. So twelve episodes instead of nine?
posted by mikepop at 8:56 AM on February 21
posted by mikepop at 8:56 AM on February 21
Officially 10 episodes. So we're in the middle, but past the halfway point.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:06 AM on February 21
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:06 AM on February 21
I think the severance project / MDR (maybe, too) are super stratified due to the importance of the project(s). A lot of need to know setups, as well.
I mean that's the central metaphor of the show right? Corporate interests separate meaning from action so that they can get people to perform work that they would otherwise find morally disagreeable to advance the company's bottom line. Also how tech companies like, oh let's just say Apple (of Apple TV fame) create walled gardens that prevent interoperability and make our life significantly worse for no particular reason other than to serve Kier. I mean Steve Jobs. Tim Apple?
posted by bookwo3107 at 9:22 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
I mean that's the central metaphor of the show right? Corporate interests separate meaning from action so that they can get people to perform work that they would otherwise find morally disagreeable to advance the company's bottom line. Also how tech companies like, oh let's just say Apple (of Apple TV fame) create walled gardens that prevent interoperability and make our life significantly worse for no particular reason other than to serve Kier. I mean Steve Jobs. Tim Apple?
posted by bookwo3107 at 9:22 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
Burt clearly seems like a company man here; he was shown observing Irving without approaching earlier and the 12 vs. 20 year disagreement with Fields looks like Burt hiding something. Mr Drummond in Irv’s house at the same time seals it for me.
(They could always slip in a Christmas Episode and a Hijinks Episode like Ted Lasso S03 did, to bring it to 12)
posted by migurski at 9:23 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
(They could always slip in a Christmas Episode and a Hijinks Episode like Ted Lasso S03 did, to bring it to 12)
posted by migurski at 9:23 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
Jame mentioned old versions of the severance chips with blue and yellow lights when Helena was a child, so I'm guessing Burt has indeed been severed for 20 years. And it's telling information that the severance procedure was an alternative to actual reform: Burt is still a scoundrel.
The scene at Zufu was so uncomfortable. Is Helena trying to threaten Mark? Is she just terrible at flirting? Both? I can't tell what her game is or read her motivations, in a similar way as I couldn't tell what Cobel/Solvig's motives towards Mark were. Season 3 might give us more on why he's so goshdarn Important.
posted by rikschell at 10:13 AM on February 21 [5 favorites]
The scene at Zufu was so uncomfortable. Is Helena trying to threaten Mark? Is she just terrible at flirting? Both? I can't tell what her game is or read her motivations, in a similar way as I couldn't tell what Cobel/Solvig's motives towards Mark were. Season 3 might give us more on why he's so goshdarn Important.
posted by rikschell at 10:13 AM on February 21 [5 favorites]
Melchik's self-flagellation was Biblical.
posted by whuppy at 10:17 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 10:17 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]
Helena and Helly B reintegrate thanks to their love of the child growing inside them.
posted by whuppy at 10:20 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 10:20 AM on February 21 [2 favorites]
> They could always slip in a Christmas Episode and a Hijinks Episode like Ted Lasso S03 did
A Lumen Christmas ep could be hilarious nightmare fuel
posted by Pronoiac at 10:44 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]
A Lumen Christmas ep could be hilarious nightmare fuel
posted by Pronoiac at 10:44 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]
The scene at Zufu was so uncomfortable. Is Helena trying to threaten Mark? Is she just terrible at flirting? Both?
Helena being infatuated with Mark is my reading of the situation.
posted by Atreides at 11:15 AM on February 21 [8 favorites]
Helena being infatuated with Mark is my reading of the situation.
posted by Atreides at 11:15 AM on February 21 [8 favorites]
A Lumen Christmas ep could be hilarious nightmare fuel
Why pay for one claymation episode when you can have ... two?
posted by pwnguin at 11:18 AM on February 21 [6 favorites]
Why pay for one claymation episode when you can have ... two?
posted by pwnguin at 11:18 AM on February 21 [6 favorites]
> Why pay for one claymation episode when you can have ... two?
First rule of government spending!
posted by uphc at 11:20 AM on February 21 [3 favorites]
First rule of government spending!
posted by uphc at 11:20 AM on February 21 [3 favorites]
And we already have the mints!
posted by mochapickle at 11:45 AM on February 21
posted by mochapickle at 11:45 AM on February 21
I didn't know that John Noble had been cast in this; strong OH FUCK YES on seeing him.
The "my innie will go to heaven" belief that Burt and Fields have: interesting, but it feels somewhat muddy? They're starting from the Lutherans' preaching that innies are complete beings with souls; but is not the logical conclusion from that that the innies are separate beings to their outies? Fields is comforted that a piece of Burt will go to heaven, but that's not the same Burt.
I've had as a running thought that the innies are childlike, and the severed floor deliberately maintains them in a childlike state; does this mean that they're also innocent? (It does feel like the innies are generally better people than their outies, no?) If so, is Milchick the inadvertent snake in this garden? His use of "finding love" as a tool to motivate the innies has led Mark and Helly to commit original sin.
I rather like tzikeh's accidental inversion so let's run with it a bit: maybe Lumon deliberately keep the innies in a state of childlike innocence because the end goal for them -- of the mysterious and important work -- is a means for the Keirs to steal that innocence to cleanse their outies of their sins, while damning their innies with them.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:35 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
The "my innie will go to heaven" belief that Burt and Fields have: interesting, but it feels somewhat muddy? They're starting from the Lutherans' preaching that innies are complete beings with souls; but is not the logical conclusion from that that the innies are separate beings to their outies? Fields is comforted that a piece of Burt will go to heaven, but that's not the same Burt.
I've had as a running thought that the innies are childlike, and the severed floor deliberately maintains them in a childlike state; does this mean that they're also innocent? (It does feel like the innies are generally better people than their outies, no?) If so, is Milchick the inadvertent snake in this garden? His use of "finding love" as a tool to motivate the innies has led Mark and Helly to commit original sin.
I rather like tzikeh's accidental inversion so let's run with it a bit: maybe Lumon deliberately keep the innies in a state of childlike innocence because the end goal for them -- of the mysterious and important work -- is a means for the Keirs to steal that innocence to cleanse their outies of their sins, while damning their innies with them.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:35 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
The scene at Zufu was so uncomfortable. Is Helena trying to threaten Mark? Is she just terrible at flirting? Both?
Helena being infatuated with Mark is my reading of the situation.
That, and I think curiosity about how this person she was intimate with (without his knowledge) might respond to her, and the creepy and manipulative sense of control she gets from that.
It was very interesting to see Helena and O-Mark kinda dig each other's sarcastic and slightly mean selves, while Helly and I-Mark became friends through his genuine kindness to her. It was an echo of Helena being an asshole at the ORTBO and that pinging something kind of assholish in beginning-to-integrate Mark S.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:36 PM on February 21 [13 favorites]
Helena being infatuated with Mark is my reading of the situation.
That, and I think curiosity about how this person she was intimate with (without his knowledge) might respond to her, and the creepy and manipulative sense of control she gets from that.
It was very interesting to see Helena and O-Mark kinda dig each other's sarcastic and slightly mean selves, while Helly and I-Mark became friends through his genuine kindness to her. It was an echo of Helena being an asshole at the ORTBO and that pinging something kind of assholish in beginning-to-integrate Mark S.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:36 PM on February 21 [13 favorites]
Burt saying he was led to Lumon by "Jesus" when sitting across from "The Jesus" was -- possibly unintentionally -- hilarious
I think Irving's "Jesus... Christ?" was an indicator that the writers 100% had that on their minds :-)
posted by oneirodynia at 12:41 PM on February 21 [12 favorites]
I think Irving's "Jesus... Christ?" was an indicator that the writers 100% had that on their minds :-)
posted by oneirodynia at 12:41 PM on February 21 [12 favorites]
I’m currently in a Teams thread at work where one of the network engineers is named Jesus, and there’s a half second when the notification summary pops up, that I think someone is cursing, “Jesus what is up with the network latency?”
posted by funkaspuck at 12:45 PM on February 21 [9 favorites]
posted by funkaspuck at 12:45 PM on February 21 [9 favorites]
I suspect he may not even be severed (and wonder how we could tell, at this point).
I think there's a difference between gentle, cautious I-Bert and intense, unreadable, slightly menacing O-Bert. The Bert we met last night has something predatory in him that wasn't in severed Bert.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:47 PM on February 21 [15 favorites]
I think there's a difference between gentle, cautious I-Bert and intense, unreadable, slightly menacing O-Bert. The Bert we met last night has something predatory in him that wasn't in severed Bert.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:47 PM on February 21 [15 favorites]
Gretchen seems to love innie Dylan like someone in a new relationship with a person they've fallen for. She enjoys his innocence and sweetness. Outie Dylan, though, she lives with and raises kids with but she just doesn't seem to enjoy him. He's doing what he wants, he's not paying much attention to her. Curious to see where this storyline goes because with her lying about the meetup with his innie being canceled, they're going somewhere with this.
Meanwhile, the Helena/Helly/Mark "throuple" is starting to really branch into big problems. Mark and Helly had sex, and then Mark has that uncomfortable run-in with Helena at the diner. Then during a re-integration bit, he sees the memory of sex with Helly, not knowing that she's Helena's innie and he thinks Helly is Helena. Outie Mark still isn't aware of the one-night ORTBO stand with Helena. There's some real trouble brewing here.
Burt, what the hell are you up to? Same question with Irv, although he's likely going to be derailed by the big fella.
posted by azpenguin at 12:53 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, the Helena/Helly/Mark "throuple" is starting to really branch into big problems. Mark and Helly had sex, and then Mark has that uncomfortable run-in with Helena at the diner. Then during a re-integration bit, he sees the memory of sex with Helly, not knowing that she's Helena's innie and he thinks Helly is Helena. Outie Mark still isn't aware of the one-night ORTBO stand with Helena. There's some real trouble brewing here.
Burt, what the hell are you up to? Same question with Irv, although he's likely going to be derailed by the big fella.
posted by azpenguin at 12:53 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
I'm wondering if Outie Dylan has experienced some sort of traumatic event in his past sometime after he was married. It's mentioned he couldn't hold down a job before Lumon. He seems somewhat disengaged at home and unwilling to face the reality of the family finances (sounding like he wanted to buy a new car in this episode). Or maybe he is just worn down by life generally. Either way, Gretchen is reacting to innie Dylan like "here is the guy I fell for". If the severance procedure retains the essence of a person (and I'd argue Dylan has the most personality of any innie) minus any personal knowledge (including trauma) then it's sort of a reset.
posted by mikepop at 1:24 PM on February 21 [7 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 1:24 PM on February 21 [7 favorites]
All the innies start out childlike, but now they're having new experiences that will alter them. What will they "grow" to be. (Despite all the "important file" blah blah, I still feel like the innies themselves are the experiment, not the refining.)
With all the Rehgabi chaos and danger, at least Mark's protector Devon now knows something about all it. (IF Devon doesn't turn out to be someone different than we think.)
if Lumon is so large and worldwide, why is the company structure so small?
The first season practical explanation was shooting during the pre-vaxx pandemic year. (For another ex., I think they wanted John Noble back then, but he couldn't fly in, so they had a "double" for S109.)
But it certainly strikes me as odd this season, too.
Three people at a top brass meeting, a teen intern is the only MDR supervisor? I think there's electronic surveillance, but no one is monitoring in real time. (IMO Helena still goes to the recordings after work.)
As someone else said, Cobel would've already guessed Mark was reintegrating!!
Fields mentioned a time the two of them got together with Burt's "Lumon partner."
This in the same episode as Mark's confused reintegration memories gave me vibes that Fields experiences a type of time / person confusion because of an Evil Lumon procedure. (Crazy Theory of the Week!)
Oh, Helly had some great lines, ala "Did you sever your balls in the elevator?" and "Behind the poster of you being an actual hero?"
posted by NorthernLite at 1:42 PM on February 21 [14 favorites]
With all the Rehgabi chaos and danger, at least Mark's protector Devon now knows something about all it. (IF Devon doesn't turn out to be someone different than we think.)
if Lumon is so large and worldwide, why is the company structure so small?
The first season practical explanation was shooting during the pre-vaxx pandemic year. (For another ex., I think they wanted John Noble back then, but he couldn't fly in, so they had a "double" for S109.)
But it certainly strikes me as odd this season, too.
Three people at a top brass meeting, a teen intern is the only MDR supervisor? I think there's electronic surveillance, but no one is monitoring in real time. (IMO Helena still goes to the recordings after work.)
As someone else said, Cobel would've already guessed Mark was reintegrating!!
Fields mentioned a time the two of them got together with Burt's "Lumon partner."
This in the same episode as Mark's confused reintegration memories gave me vibes that Fields experiences a type of time / person confusion because of an Evil Lumon procedure. (Crazy Theory of the Week!)
Oh, Helly had some great lines, ala "Did you sever your balls in the elevator?" and "Behind the poster of you being an actual hero?"
posted by NorthernLite at 1:42 PM on February 21 [14 favorites]
Another great Helly line:
Miss Huang: Did you punch him?
Helly: er, I mean not today.
posted by simonw at 4:53 PM on February 21 [18 favorites]
Miss Huang: Did you punch him?
Helly: er, I mean not today.
posted by simonw at 4:53 PM on February 21 [18 favorites]
I love the way this show is insistent on just sitting its characters directly in the middle of their awful, weird, sad situations and letting the moral complexity play out.
the innie-Devin relationship to his outie's wife is heartbreaking, and so is her relationship to him, in ways that are somehow simultaneously impossible and completely possible to empathize with.
watching Mark and Helly consent is wrenching on multiple levels given that they exist as explicit extensions of the idea that we're all created without our consent, but in their case they don't even get to have their own full lives or bodies, consent is always conditional at best
good show man. who even cares if any of the lore makes sense (I think it hangs together well enough to work), these characters are so well drawn and their dynamics are so fascinating and compelling and the thematic throughlines are so expertly drawn and walked
posted by Kybard at 4:53 PM on February 21 [9 favorites]
the innie-Devin relationship to his outie's wife is heartbreaking, and so is her relationship to him, in ways that are somehow simultaneously impossible and completely possible to empathize with.
watching Mark and Helly consent is wrenching on multiple levels given that they exist as explicit extensions of the idea that we're all created without our consent, but in their case they don't even get to have their own full lives or bodies, consent is always conditional at best
good show man. who even cares if any of the lore makes sense (I think it hangs together well enough to work), these characters are so well drawn and their dynamics are so fascinating and compelling and the thematic throughlines are so expertly drawn and walked
posted by Kybard at 4:53 PM on February 21 [9 favorites]
man, yeah, Severance is a danger to watch while eating, since you might miss something, or you might… fail to miss a graphic head hole
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:56 PM on February 21 [10 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:56 PM on February 21 [10 favorites]
that was a fun one to guide my wife through. "ok I think the gory's parts over oh oh never mind continue looking away, big ol' hole still there"
the size of the hole surprised me initially but, like, yeah, I guess it's a lot easier to sew up the uh public-facing parts than it would be to refill a skull
posted by Kybard at 5:31 PM on February 21
the size of the hole surprised me initially but, like, yeah, I guess it's a lot easier to sew up the uh public-facing parts than it would be to refill a skull
posted by Kybard at 5:31 PM on February 21
Oh wow here's some foreshadowing from the previous episode:
Miss Casey (in Mark's reintegration dream): "Your outie prefers two scoops of ice cream in a serving, but they must be the same flavor"
And now he's shared vessels with both Helena and Helly.
posted by simonw at 5:41 PM on February 21 [22 favorites]
Miss Casey (in Mark's reintegration dream): "Your outie prefers two scoops of ice cream in a serving, but they must be the same flavor"
And now he's shared vessels with both Helena and Helly.
posted by simonw at 5:41 PM on February 21 [22 favorites]
Oh my goodness and I just realized Milchick's line about Cobel wanting to be in a thruple foreshadowed all four of the MDR crew is being up in some kind of extremely complicated love triangle in this episode.
Honestly is there a single line of dialogue in this show that doesn't have some kind of deeper relevance?
posted by simonw at 5:47 PM on February 21 [7 favorites]
Honestly is there a single line of dialogue in this show that doesn't have some kind of deeper relevance?
posted by simonw at 5:47 PM on February 21 [7 favorites]
I wonder if the ambiguous transition from Mark with Ms. Huang to Mark with Raghabi is just the beginning of a new direction the show will be headed towards, which is just increasingly unclear and confusing smearing of innie and outie Mark narratives. I feel like that would be very well-earned and stylish on their part while being deeply uncomfortable/frustrating to my desire for puzzles to be solved. Just generally love this show, and thankful for this thread so I can share this bizarre but enjoyable (head holes notwithstanding) televisual experience!
posted by nightcoast at 9:11 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
posted by nightcoast at 9:11 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
I liked how the waiter brought Mark two fortune cookies.
Those weird constructed animatronics in the ORTBO would be outrageously expensive for a real world retreat
I maintain that there were no animatronics, just actors in wigs who resembled the characters. (That's exactly what the producers of the show actually used in the scenes.)
Burt is still working for Lumon, just not in O&D. If he’s been there twenty years pre-dating the severed procedure
Do we know for sure that Burt was ever severed? We've never seen him transition in an elevator. He could have been doing a Helena the whole time.
My theory: Burt was the old Mr. Drummond. Maybe he really did switch to the severed floor out of guilt / Jesus reasons...
Helena knows her innie had sex with Mark.
> Does she know that ?
It's certainly quite possible that she might know, physically.
Also quite possible that she knows because she obsessively watches surveillance footage of the severed floor...
posted by mmoncur at 9:42 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
Those weird constructed animatronics in the ORTBO would be outrageously expensive for a real world retreat
I maintain that there were no animatronics, just actors in wigs who resembled the characters. (That's exactly what the producers of the show actually used in the scenes.)
Burt is still working for Lumon, just not in O&D. If he’s been there twenty years pre-dating the severed procedure
Do we know for sure that Burt was ever severed? We've never seen him transition in an elevator. He could have been doing a Helena the whole time.
My theory: Burt was the old Mr. Drummond. Maybe he really did switch to the severed floor out of guilt / Jesus reasons...
Helena knows her innie had sex with Mark.
> Does she know that ?
It's certainly quite possible that she might know, physically.
Also quite possible that she knows because she obsessively watches surveillance footage of the severed floor...
posted by mmoncur at 9:42 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
"I think that was just a bit of stylistic license"
In the Severance podcast, Ben Stiller has this to said about the scene where Mark switched from inner to outie:
"And we have the first time where you ever start to lose time and kind of literally fritz out where you find yourself back in the basement when you literally were just at Lumon."
If I interpreted this correctly, this scene is not meant as a bit of stylistic license after all.
posted by applesurf at 11:29 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
In the Severance podcast, Ben Stiller has this to said about the scene where Mark switched from inner to outie:
"And we have the first time where you ever start to lose time and kind of literally fritz out where you find yourself back in the basement when you literally were just at Lumon."
If I interpreted this correctly, this scene is not meant as a bit of stylistic license after all.
posted by applesurf at 11:29 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
"And we have the first time where you ever start to lose time and kind of literally fritz out where you find yourself back in the basement when you literally were just at Lumon."
If I interpreted this correctly, this scene is not meant as a bit of stylistic license after all.
I understand this to mean “when, from your perspective, you were literally just at Lumon.”
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:38 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
If I interpreted this correctly, this scene is not meant as a bit of stylistic license after all.
I understand this to mean “when, from your perspective, you were literally just at Lumon.”
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:38 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
I was so thrilled by Milchick’s self-Break Rooming scene, it was incredible and I find myself rooting for him to somehow free himself from all this despite not really believing he ever could.
Also extremely intrigued by the extra info we got on Miss Huang. “Graduate from this fellowship”? The grim look on her face when he told her she could supervise the team from her “customary desk” (and then we never see her again while the entire team romps around anywhere but at their desks)?
Extremely worried about Irving now that all his files have been rifled through by Bad Guy. Is he gonna wind up in the evil basement? Also WHO THE HECK IS HE? We know so little about his outie compared to the others on the team - we know he was investigating the company and we know he paints, that’s basically it. What is his deal, who does he call on that pay phone, I’m dying to know.
Also where is Harmony Cobel, also what made Reghabi disavow Lumon and start living like a rat and murdering people. What is even happening. I love this show.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:50 PM on February 21 [8 favorites]
Also extremely intrigued by the extra info we got on Miss Huang. “Graduate from this fellowship”? The grim look on her face when he told her she could supervise the team from her “customary desk” (and then we never see her again while the entire team romps around anywhere but at their desks)?
Extremely worried about Irving now that all his files have been rifled through by Bad Guy. Is he gonna wind up in the evil basement? Also WHO THE HECK IS HE? We know so little about his outie compared to the others on the team - we know he was investigating the company and we know he paints, that’s basically it. What is his deal, who does he call on that pay phone, I’m dying to know.
Also where is Harmony Cobel, also what made Reghabi disavow Lumon and start living like a rat and murdering people. What is even happening. I love this show.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:50 PM on February 21 [8 favorites]
I’m convinced episode eight or nine is just going to be one hour of Cobel story with no one else from the main cast
posted by DoctorFedora at 12:07 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 12:07 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
The restaurant might be called ZUFU, but the sign clearly said F U when Mark left. This season is just dense with imagery.
I assumed that the sins that Burt was atoning for were sexual, but after reading this thread maybe I need to look if he's got a "frolic" tattooed somewhere.
posted by WhackyparseThis at 1:25 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I assumed that the sins that Burt was atoning for were sexual, but after reading this thread maybe I need to look if he's got a "frolic" tattooed somewhere.
posted by WhackyparseThis at 1:25 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I am certain that Milcheck is being set up for a heel-face turn. We are seeing the Lumon establishment antagonise him for no good reason, he’s shouting literal character development at himself in the mirror, and he’s such a good actor that he can’t be wasted. He’s going to be the prince zuko to mark’s aang.
Also, whatever victory status that is achieved this season must leave characters with access to the severed floor, where the action happens. I would not expect things to go so great at the end of this season.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:27 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
Also, whatever victory status that is achieved this season must leave characters with access to the severed floor, where the action happens. I would not expect things to go so great at the end of this season.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:27 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
Everyone in this show drives old cars around to go everywhere, but Burt and Fields take the train to church.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:19 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:19 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
It was 20!years ago. I took the “we took the train to church” as having an implied “we lived in a bigger city” (NYC, BOS, Philly, Chicago).
John Noble is using bits of his native NZ accent here. In other roles, he uses something more British or semi-British, and his pitch is lower. It’s just neat to hear those sharp vowels.
Walken said something to the effect of “sometimes you get to work with someone in advance, but this time they just brought me to the trailer and said ‘here’s your husband!’ A good chunk of Tumblr has been like “That is JOHN NOBLE, you ungrateful wretch!” I love both Noble and Walken, but it’s interesting to me that for a lot of people below a certain age, Noble is the more notable actor.
Also, adding Noble = increasing the Fringe parallels.
That brief moment of Gemma as Gemma and not as Ms. Casey in the hallway…
The other thing going around Tumblr is variants of:
Helena after the conversation in the Chinese restaurant: Yes! Nailed it!
Mark Scout: Time to get myself a basement lobotomy!
posted by rednikki at 5:35 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
John Noble is using bits of his native NZ accent here. In other roles, he uses something more British or semi-British, and his pitch is lower. It’s just neat to hear those sharp vowels.
Walken said something to the effect of “sometimes you get to work with someone in advance, but this time they just brought me to the trailer and said ‘here’s your husband!’ A good chunk of Tumblr has been like “That is JOHN NOBLE, you ungrateful wretch!” I love both Noble and Walken, but it’s interesting to me that for a lot of people below a certain age, Noble is the more notable actor.
Also, adding Noble = increasing the Fringe parallels.
That brief moment of Gemma as Gemma and not as Ms. Casey in the hallway…
The other thing going around Tumblr is variants of:
Helena after the conversation in the Chinese restaurant: Yes! Nailed it!
Mark Scout: Time to get myself a basement lobotomy!
posted by rednikki at 5:35 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
He’s going to be the prince zuko to mark’s aang.
Incidentally, I saw someone on reddit make an incredibly astute comparison of Helena’s flirting in the Chinese restaurant to Azula’s flirting in the beach episode. Hi hello I may be the ruthless scion of one of the most powerful families in the world who was raised to see people as objects but that doesn’t mean I don’t have needs, handsome!! Wait where are you going you sexy peon
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:50 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Incidentally, I saw someone on reddit make an incredibly astute comparison of Helena’s flirting in the Chinese restaurant to Azula’s flirting in the beach episode. Hi hello I may be the ruthless scion of one of the most powerful families in the world who was raised to see people as objects but that doesn’t mean I don’t have needs, handsome!! Wait where are you going you sexy peon
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:50 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
When John Noble is on screen, I just see Denethor eating from LOTR.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 11:14 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 11:14 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
What is his deal, who does he call on that pay phone, I’m dying to know.
One cinematic hint: that has to be the most well lit pay phone I've ever seen. I don't pay attention too deeply to fan theories, but I understand that lighting is used to convey various connections, and I get the impression that white light is associated with Lumon.
posted by pwnguin at 11:16 AM on February 22
One cinematic hint: that has to be the most well lit pay phone I've ever seen. I don't pay attention too deeply to fan theories, but I understand that lighting is used to convey various connections, and I get the impression that white light is associated with Lumon.
posted by pwnguin at 11:16 AM on February 22
Hm, rednikki, I was pretty sure they were talking about going to the Lutheran church where Petey's funeral was held. I'll have to check the scripts now.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:02 PM on February 22
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:02 PM on February 22
The word that continuously ran through my mind watching this episode was 'duplicity.' The episode perfectly describes my general understanding of the word, i.e. putting on a false front.
I then checked Merriam-Webster, which backed up the theme of this episode even more clearly: "1
: contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action, especially the belying of one's true intentions by deceptive words or action AND 2: the quality or state of being double or twofold."
Helena lied to oMark; Gretchen lied to oDylan and Burt lied to oIrving.
oMark lied to Miss Huang and Devon, but his lie is exposed to Devon because Reghabi rushes out to help him as he collapses.
Also, the really interesting thing to me that I need to ponder further is Field's belief that because oBurt was a scoundrel, he will go the hell, but iBurt will go to heaven. So, does iBurt's affair with iIrving and being fired/retired for that now negate the possibility of going to heaven? What would Field's pastor say about that? (Relatedly, I am guessing the congressman with the severed wife probably goes to the same church.)
Still on the topic of duplicity: Executive producer Ben Stiller is the child of a Jewish father and Catholic mother (Jerry Stiller and Anne Meara). I have to think that being raised with that doubleness is influencing the show in certain ways.
posted by BeBoth at 12:34 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I then checked Merriam-Webster, which backed up the theme of this episode even more clearly: "1
: contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action, especially the belying of one's true intentions by deceptive words or action AND 2: the quality or state of being double or twofold."
Helena lied to oMark; Gretchen lied to oDylan and Burt lied to oIrving.
oMark lied to Miss Huang and Devon, but his lie is exposed to Devon because Reghabi rushes out to help him as he collapses.
Also, the really interesting thing to me that I need to ponder further is Field's belief that because oBurt was a scoundrel, he will go the hell, but iBurt will go to heaven. So, does iBurt's affair with iIrving and being fired/retired for that now negate the possibility of going to heaven? What would Field's pastor say about that? (Relatedly, I am guessing the congressman with the severed wife probably goes to the same church.)
Still on the topic of duplicity: Executive producer Ben Stiller is the child of a Jewish father and Catholic mother (Jerry Stiller and Anne Meara). I have to think that being raised with that doubleness is influencing the show in certain ways.
posted by BeBoth at 12:34 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
The word that continuously ran through my mind watching this episode was 'duplicity.'
posted by BeBoth
Oh, my: eponysterical
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 12:53 PM on February 22 [7 favorites]
posted by BeBoth
Oh, my: eponysterical
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 12:53 PM on February 22 [7 favorites]
I kind of love how Milchick told Mark that Harmony Cobel was fired because she'd developed an erotic fixation on Mark with the intention of establishing a throuple... and now here comes Helena, developing an erotic fixation on Mark with the intention of establishing a throuple.
posted by mochapickle at 1:10 PM on February 22 [12 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 1:10 PM on February 22 [12 favorites]
I don't understand why, immediately after his encounter at the restaurant, he storms home and tells Reghabi he wants to move forward and somehow doesn't tell her that he just got low-key harassed by Helena Eagan.
I think he's incredibly pissed off, at Helena and at Lumon generally.
I liked seeing sarcastic outie Mark being fake-polite to Helena.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:53 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
I think he's incredibly pissed off, at Helena and at Lumon generally.
I liked seeing sarcastic outie Mark being fake-polite to Helena.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:53 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
I will also say that this episode was gorgeous -- visually, the most lush and engrossing of the season so far. The sequences at Burt and Fields' house and at the Chinese restaurant looked particularly stunning, but there were other great moments too. At one point, there was a long shot of Helly walking down a white corridor, and the odd framing and the out-of-focus ceiling lights in the background made the Lumon severed floor look different than we'd ever seen it before.
I've noticed that Jessica Lee Gagné, who I'm pretty sure shot the whole first season, has not done many of the episodes this season. And that has perhaps contributed to my feeling that this season hasn't felt quite as magically seamless and transporting as season 1. But I thought this last episode -- which interestingly, was one of the ones not shot by Gagné -- had the cinematic richness and sophistication of the S1 episodes that she shot.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:02 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I've noticed that Jessica Lee Gagné, who I'm pretty sure shot the whole first season, has not done many of the episodes this season. And that has perhaps contributed to my feeling that this season hasn't felt quite as magically seamless and transporting as season 1. But I thought this last episode -- which interestingly, was one of the ones not shot by Gagné -- had the cinematic richness and sophistication of the S1 episodes that she shot.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:02 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Gretchen seems to love innie Dylan like someone in a new relationship with a person they've fallen for. She enjoys his innocence and sweetness.
I get the sense that she also likes that indie Dylan really seems good at his job and relatively well-adjusted at work. Outie Dylan seems haunted by failure.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:22 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I get the sense that she also likes that indie Dylan really seems good at his job and relatively well-adjusted at work. Outie Dylan seems haunted by failure.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:22 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I had a thought that I'm sure has occurred to tons of people so far, but here we go:
I'd mentioned a few weeks ago that Kier's writings about Dieter and the forest smacked of John Harvey Kellogg’s monomania against anything that could make you horny — hence a life of bland food, no booze, constant exercise, and lots of enemas.
A business scion with Big Ideas, Kier probably felt cognitive dissonance about this — believing sex to be bad, yet wanting to have heirs and successors to Lumon leadership. Much like I suspect “Dieter” was a way of imputing all his base impulses onto the “bad half” of himself as a way of distancing himself from them, I suspect he views the ideal of humanity as a person who works constantly for every hour of their existence — leaving the drudgery of sleep, meals, courtship, procreation, recreation, and even growing up to some other consciousness.
Of course, only one half of a person can consent to a severance procedure. And If they were intellectually honest about it, they'd want to make the outie the severed one. If I truly thought like Kier did, and wanted to live my life as a “pure” consciousness toiling away at work with no distractions, severance wouldn't get me there; it'd only create a new consciousness inside my vessel with those privileges. I'd be stuck doing the stuff I hated!
But, of course, that wouldn't fly for the average person — for whom the sales pitch would need to be that severance allows you to offload the drudgery of work to someone else. And there are all sorts of other practical reasons that the outie can't be a “blank slate”; whereas innies operate in a sandbox of relative safety, outies have to navigate a complex real world and need the life skills they accumulated over decades of consciousness.
And Lumon talks a good game about Kier, but has shown themselves to subscribe to the latter view. There's nothing elevated about a consciousness that is working only because it knows that it was created for work, is told to work, and will cease to be alive if it refuses to work.
Then again, maybe Kier would approve. Maybe he thought through the details of severance (despite it being technologically unattainable at the time) and knew that an innie, given the choice, would usually leave the sanctified cocoon of work — making it necessary to remove their agency in order to “save” them. Maybe it's a spiritual thing (hinted at this week) that aims to create souls free of sin — all merits accrued by the innie, with all demerits stuck onto the outie.
None of this explains Cold Harbor or what macrodata refinement actually does, so it's bound to be incorrect, but at least if I type it all into a text box I can stop thinking about it.
posted by savetheclocktower at 2:24 PM on February 23 [11 favorites]
I'd mentioned a few weeks ago that Kier's writings about Dieter and the forest smacked of John Harvey Kellogg’s monomania against anything that could make you horny — hence a life of bland food, no booze, constant exercise, and lots of enemas.
A business scion with Big Ideas, Kier probably felt cognitive dissonance about this — believing sex to be bad, yet wanting to have heirs and successors to Lumon leadership. Much like I suspect “Dieter” was a way of imputing all his base impulses onto the “bad half” of himself as a way of distancing himself from them, I suspect he views the ideal of humanity as a person who works constantly for every hour of their existence — leaving the drudgery of sleep, meals, courtship, procreation, recreation, and even growing up to some other consciousness.
Of course, only one half of a person can consent to a severance procedure. And If they were intellectually honest about it, they'd want to make the outie the severed one. If I truly thought like Kier did, and wanted to live my life as a “pure” consciousness toiling away at work with no distractions, severance wouldn't get me there; it'd only create a new consciousness inside my vessel with those privileges. I'd be stuck doing the stuff I hated!
But, of course, that wouldn't fly for the average person — for whom the sales pitch would need to be that severance allows you to offload the drudgery of work to someone else. And there are all sorts of other practical reasons that the outie can't be a “blank slate”; whereas innies operate in a sandbox of relative safety, outies have to navigate a complex real world and need the life skills they accumulated over decades of consciousness.
And Lumon talks a good game about Kier, but has shown themselves to subscribe to the latter view. There's nothing elevated about a consciousness that is working only because it knows that it was created for work, is told to work, and will cease to be alive if it refuses to work.
Then again, maybe Kier would approve. Maybe he thought through the details of severance (despite it being technologically unattainable at the time) and knew that an innie, given the choice, would usually leave the sanctified cocoon of work — making it necessary to remove their agency in order to “save” them. Maybe it's a spiritual thing (hinted at this week) that aims to create souls free of sin — all merits accrued by the innie, with all demerits stuck onto the outie.
None of this explains Cold Harbor or what macrodata refinement actually does, so it's bound to be incorrect, but at least if I type it all into a text box I can stop thinking about it.
posted by savetheclocktower at 2:24 PM on February 23 [11 favorites]
Is it possible that once Lumen recognized that Mark was a prodigy that they would try and see if his skill breeds true? Could that be the real reason Helena's body went inside?
posted by whuppy at 4:32 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
posted by whuppy at 4:32 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
A detail I had missed from the previous episode is that Irving took down (and maybe hid?) his paintings of the export gallery. Was he suspicious that someone from Lumon might come snooping around his apartment?
posted by simonw at 5:11 PM on February 23 [12 favorites]
posted by simonw at 5:11 PM on February 23 [12 favorites]
Some silly Sunday speculations on what's to come:
I think I'm settling on Mark's work being some form of resurrection/reconstruction of his wife's personality and identity, with Lumon trying to get him to do this in a way that would allow them to replicate the process as part of their "world-domination" goals - basically, you sever everyone, and then you build the new innie inside of them out of scratch.
However, it seems outie Mark, Raghabi, and Cobel, all kind of want the same alternate outcome - that Mark manages to bring back his wife as a reintegrated person, not a severed person. Mark obviously wants this because he loves Gemma, and Raghabi seems to be on a mission to redress the wrongs of severance. With Cobel, she seems to have a family member she is missing, and maybe thinks that there's a two step procedure - take a comatose person, sever them so that you get a new "awake" personality, and then reintegerate them. This would still allow her to still be a Lumon true-believer, because she would believe in the benefit of the severing as a sort of "safe reboot" of an unconscious person, but then would be a corporately heretical believer in the further step of reintegration.
A friend guessed that this will end Orpheus-style, with Mark inadvertantly ruining his chance to bring Gemma back, which I find plausible; but this show is twisty so who knows?
posted by nightcoast at 7:55 PM on February 23 [10 favorites]
I think I'm settling on Mark's work being some form of resurrection/reconstruction of his wife's personality and identity, with Lumon trying to get him to do this in a way that would allow them to replicate the process as part of their "world-domination" goals - basically, you sever everyone, and then you build the new innie inside of them out of scratch.
However, it seems outie Mark, Raghabi, and Cobel, all kind of want the same alternate outcome - that Mark manages to bring back his wife as a reintegrated person, not a severed person. Mark obviously wants this because he loves Gemma, and Raghabi seems to be on a mission to redress the wrongs of severance. With Cobel, she seems to have a family member she is missing, and maybe thinks that there's a two step procedure - take a comatose person, sever them so that you get a new "awake" personality, and then reintegerate them. This would still allow her to still be a Lumon true-believer, because she would believe in the benefit of the severing as a sort of "safe reboot" of an unconscious person, but then would be a corporately heretical believer in the further step of reintegration.
A friend guessed that this will end Orpheus-style, with Mark inadvertantly ruining his chance to bring Gemma back, which I find plausible; but this show is twisty so who knows?
posted by nightcoast at 7:55 PM on February 23 [10 favorites]
This show is twisty, yes, but it also burns through plot at rates only exceeded by The Good Place. So given all the references to the underworld we’ve seen up to this point, I’d expect an Orpheus/Eurydice moment to come in the season finale.
(I’m not sure it will be Mark & Gemma, though.)
posted by thecaddy at 5:20 AM on February 24 [9 favorites]
(I’m not sure it will be Mark & Gemma, though.)
posted by thecaddy at 5:20 AM on February 24 [9 favorites]
In support of this ending 'Orpheus-style', I'm also going to bring up, once again, the dialog from S1E09 where Devon in an apparenent attempt to determine if she's talking to Mark innie or outtie, asks Mark what her name is and he replies 'Persephone.'
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 5:28 AM on February 24 [15 favorites]
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 5:28 AM on February 24 [15 favorites]
Okay but that was Fields picking up the dental equipment and bringing it down the long dark hallway, right?
posted by heyitsgogi at 7:01 AM on February 24 [1 favorite]
posted by heyitsgogi at 7:01 AM on February 24 [1 favorite]
"Okay but that was Fields picking up the dental equipment and bringing it down the long dark hallway, right?"
heyitsgogi: No. If you want spoilers, go to IMDB and look for the character The Doctor in the cast list for Severance.
posted by BeBoth at 7:17 AM on February 24 [3 favorites]
heyitsgogi: No. If you want spoilers, go to IMDB and look for the character The Doctor in the cast list for Severance.
posted by BeBoth at 7:17 AM on February 24 [3 favorites]
I wondered if the episode titles might pair somehow throughout the season after the first two episodes: Hello, Ms. Cobel / Goodbye, Mrs. Selvig
For the last two episodes there is sort of historical/war connection with Trojans / Atilla.
But I can't find a good connection between Who Is Alive? / Woe's Hollow.
Doesn't seem like a question/answer pair. Both are ten characters and start with W, but that's not much of a connection.
posted by mikepop at 7:45 AM on February 24
For the last two episodes there is sort of historical/war connection with Trojans / Atilla.
But I can't find a good connection between Who Is Alive? / Woe's Hollow.
Doesn't seem like a question/answer pair. Both are ten characters and start with W, but that's not much of a connection.
posted by mikepop at 7:45 AM on February 24
The way this season is developing i'm going to be super mad if they don't resolve SOME questions and give us SOME answers. It has to end on a cliffhanger because season 3 is greenlit, so we can't learn everything, can't tie everything up. But I think we pretty much have no new information since the reveal that Mark's wife is Ms Casey. The characters have learned things that only we, the audience knew, but we've learned nothing else so far. Still no idea what Cold Harbor, no idea who "the board" is, no idea if Ms Casey is some kind of clone or if they faked her death or what. Instead we've got more new questions (like what's Burt's deal? He was definitely hiding something. What's the real Helena Eagan up to. She's not playing by the same rules, I think her father would be very upset with her). So new questions, no answers? I'm getting Lost vibes! Still a great show though.
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 AM on February 24 [3 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 AM on February 24 [3 favorites]
(MARK! Never tip your head back when you have a nosebleed!)
Uh, so, hey, I just learned how Attila the Hun died: From a nosebleed.
It was on his wedding night (like sharing vessels in the purple office!)
...and he'd been drinking heavily since the day before (Mark has/had a drinking problem!)
...resulting in a nosebleed (Mark!)
...and Attila had passed out on his back (Miss Hwong had Mark tilted back!),
thereby choking to death on his own blood.
...And it was also the Ides of March. Famous day of betrayal?
posted by mochapickle at 9:12 AM on February 24 [7 favorites]
Uh, so, hey, I just learned how Attila the Hun died: From a nosebleed.
It was on his wedding night (like sharing vessels in the purple office!)
...and he'd been drinking heavily since the day before (Mark has/had a drinking problem!)
...resulting in a nosebleed (Mark!)
...and Attila had passed out on his back (Miss Hwong had Mark tilted back!),
thereby choking to death on his own blood.
...And it was also the Ides of March. Famous day of betrayal?
posted by mochapickle at 9:12 AM on February 24 [7 favorites]
Via Reddit -- photos of the Zufu restaurant set dressing. The scene was shot at Eng's Chinese Restaurant and the owners posted a bunch of photos to their Instagram account.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:40 AM on February 24 [9 favorites]
posted by nathan_teske at 11:40 AM on February 24 [9 favorites]
The way this season is developing i'm going to be super mad if they don't resolve SOME questions and give us SOME answers.
Very much this. My wife is just finishing up season 1 so I'm mindful of spoilers when talking about the show, but I realized that I had very few answers and just a lot more questions.
In the podcast for this episode regarding Helena being aware of what happened with Helly R. and Mark, (hidden if you prefer ambiguity)
posted by mikepop at 11:46 AM on February 24 [2 favorites]
Very much this. My wife is just finishing up season 1 so I'm mindful of spoilers when talking about the show, but I realized that I had very few answers and just a lot more questions.
In the podcast for this episode regarding Helena being aware of what happened with Helly R. and Mark, (hidden if you prefer ambiguity)
they state that Helena is unaware of Mark and Helly R "sharing vessels". So, Helly is aware that she and Helena have been with Innie Mark, Innie Mark is aware he has been with Helena and Helly R, Helena is aware she has been with Innie Mark, and Outie Mark is unaware Innie Mark has been with anyone.
posted by mikepop at 11:46 AM on February 24 [2 favorites]
The scene was shot at Eng's Chinese Restaurant and the owners posted a bunch of photos to their Instagram account.
Oh, wow. See, I was almost certain this was a set -- the panels of lights on the ceiling look so similar to the lights in the severed hallway, especially the motion detector ones that turned off as Helly and Mark passed under them in the first season.
posted by mochapickle at 12:29 PM on February 24 [1 favorite]
Oh, wow. See, I was almost certain this was a set -- the panels of lights on the ceiling look so similar to the lights in the severed hallway, especially the motion detector ones that turned off as Helly and Mark passed under them in the first season.
posted by mochapickle at 12:29 PM on February 24 [1 favorite]
But I think we pretty much have no new information since the reveal that Mark's wife is Ms Casey. The characters have learned things that only we, the audience knew, but we've learned nothing else so far. Still no idea what Cold Harbor, no idea who "the board" is, no idea if Ms Casey is some kind of clone or if they faked her death or what.
Whether these particular things are important to know seems entirely subjective to me (though the writers have said there are no clones). At any rate, we've known Ms. Casey is Mark's wife since Defiant Jazz, and since then we've learned that Helly is Helena Eagan, which is a pretty big reveal.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:33 PM on February 24 [2 favorites]
Whether these particular things are important to know seems entirely subjective to me (though the writers have said there are no clones). At any rate, we've known Ms. Casey is Mark's wife since Defiant Jazz, and since then we've learned that Helly is Helena Eagan, which is a pretty big reveal.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:33 PM on February 24 [2 favorites]
Whether these particular things are important to know seems entirely subjective to me
I agree. Would add that we've seen a lot of character development, which is "new information" and is, in fact, new info that that I care about more than the scifi details having to do with who the board is and all that.
Outie Mark is unaware Innie Mark has been with anyone.
mikepop, did they say this part explicitly in the podcast, or was this your own takeaway? Because my impression is that, as of the last bit we saw of outie Mark in "Attila," he now knows both that Helena is severed and that his innie was intimate with her.
posted by torticat at 12:30 PM on February 25 [2 favorites]
I agree. Would add that we've seen a lot of character development, which is "new information" and is, in fact, new info that that I care about more than the scifi details having to do with who the board is and all that.
Outie Mark is unaware Innie Mark has been with anyone.
mikepop, did they say this part explicitly in the podcast, or was this your own takeaway? Because my impression is that, as of the last bit we saw of outie Mark in "Attila," he now knows both that Helena is severed and that his innie was intimate with her.
posted by torticat at 12:30 PM on February 25 [2 favorites]
So, does iBurt's affair with iIrving and being fired/retired for that now negate the possibility of going to heaven?
BeBoth, I don't think so. Innie Burt would have no way to know his outie was in a committed relationship, so he would remain innocent. At least, that's what I took from Fields's supportive comments about how he believed innies were deserving of love.
posted by torticat at 12:35 PM on February 25 [2 favorites]
BeBoth, I don't think so. Innie Burt would have no way to know his outie was in a committed relationship, so he would remain innocent. At least, that's what I took from Fields's supportive comments about how he believed innies were deserving of love.
posted by torticat at 12:35 PM on February 25 [2 favorites]
Okay so yeah, I just relistened to that part of the podcast, and they talk about who-knows-what between M & H only as of the meeting at the restaurant. They don't make any comment on what Mark learns during the reintegration procedure that occurs after that.
It took me a rewatch to catch that outer Mark now knows Helena is severed (for him, a MAJOR reveal).
posted by torticat at 7:30 PM on February 25 [1 favorite]
It took me a rewatch to catch that outer Mark now knows Helena is severed (for him, a MAJOR reveal).
posted by torticat at 7:30 PM on February 25 [1 favorite]
Drifting off just now & had a thought in line with all the references we've seen to death, hell, Orpheus, Persephone, etc: Is Fields a reference to the Elysian Fields?
posted by mochapickle at 8:35 PM on February 25 [1 favorite]
Elysium: Elysium (/ɪˈlɪzi.əm, ɪˈlɪʒəm/[1]), otherwise known as the Elysian Fields (Ancient Greek: Ἠλύσιον πεδίον, Ēlýsion pedíon), Elysian Plains or Elysian Realm, is a conception of the afterlife that developed over time and was maintained by some Greek religious and philosophical sects and cults. It was initially separated from the Greek underworld – the realm of Hades. Only mortals related to the gods and other heroes could be admitted past the river Styx. Later, the conception of who could enter was expanded to include those chosen by the gods, the righteous, and the heroic. They would remain at the Elysian Fields after death, to live a blessed and happy afterlife, and indulge in whatever they had enjoyed in life.It fits. They believe Burt's severed half is righteous in its innocence, so that side would spend a joyful eternity in Elysium.
posted by mochapickle at 8:35 PM on February 25 [1 favorite]
Elysium got me thinking and looking and led me to an article on the website worldhistory.org titled The Egyptian Afterlife & The Feather of Truth.
Here are a couple of quotes:
Covetousness made the soul heavy with sin because it encouraged pettiness, jealousy, self-pity and, especially, expressed ingratitude. These sins made impressions on the soul which weighed down the soul's "heart" and made it impossible for one to pass through the Hall of Truth and find paradise. This was a major concern for the ancient Egyptians who understood that their life on earth was only one part of a much longer and grander journey.
Question: Is MDR then an attempt to purify a soul?
The ancient Egyptians recognized that when the soul first awoke in the afterlife it would be disoriented and might not remember its life on earth, its death, or what it was to do next. In order to help the soul continue on its journey, artists and scribes would create paintings and text related to one's life on the walls of one's tomb (now known as the Pyramid Texts) which then developed into the Coffin Texts and the famous Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Observation: Sounds a bit like life on the Severed floor.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:09 AM on February 26 [4 favorites]
Here are a couple of quotes:
Covetousness made the soul heavy with sin because it encouraged pettiness, jealousy, self-pity and, especially, expressed ingratitude. These sins made impressions on the soul which weighed down the soul's "heart" and made it impossible for one to pass through the Hall of Truth and find paradise. This was a major concern for the ancient Egyptians who understood that their life on earth was only one part of a much longer and grander journey.
Question: Is MDR then an attempt to purify a soul?
The ancient Egyptians recognized that when the soul first awoke in the afterlife it would be disoriented and might not remember its life on earth, its death, or what it was to do next. In order to help the soul continue on its journey, artists and scribes would create paintings and text related to one's life on the walls of one's tomb (now known as the Pyramid Texts) which then developed into the Coffin Texts and the famous Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Observation: Sounds a bit like life on the Severed floor.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:09 AM on February 26 [4 favorites]
A musical interlude as we wait for the new episode tonight:
Severance Theme Song - 80s Retro Synthwave (YouTube)
(lots of visual fun too)
posted by mikepop at 6:42 AM on February 27 [3 favorites]
Severance Theme Song - 80s Retro Synthwave (YouTube)
(lots of visual fun too)
posted by mikepop at 6:42 AM on February 27 [3 favorites]
Fields' statement about innies deserving to find love, and the hope that what Burt and Irving had at work was beautiful, seemed very generous and broad-minded, if he's telling the truth.
But remember, the plan Fields describes is that he was hoping that even if outie Burt went to Hell, innie Burt might go to heaven, where he and Fields could meet, fall in love, and be together. But innie Irving ruined that plan by stealing innie Burt's love.
So I think there was a bitter edge to all that stuff Fields was saying about innies having a right to love and all that was a flowery way to demand to know whether Irving had sex with his husband or not.
The Lutheran church teaches that faith/belief in Jesus is the sole path to heaven, right? What on earth has outie Burt done that he'd go so far as the severance procedure to save part of himself from damnation?
Popular culture's version of Heaven and Hell--that your deeds get weighed and if the good outweighs the bad you go to Heaven--is so pervasive that it's not unrealistic to have Lutheran characters who believe that rather than what the Lutheran church teaches.
Actual Lutheran teaching is more like David Lynch's "Fix your hearts or die!" Who you are doesn't have to be a mere arithmetic sum of what you've done. Burt can be forgiven if he genuinely renounces his evil and chooses the way to becoming a better person, but I agree with everybody who suspects he thinks he's done something unforgivable for Lumen but is still working for them anyway.
But I also like torticat's idea that Burt had affair(s) at Lumen and the couple saw severance as a way for philandering at work to stay at work. Maybe it's both!
posted by straight at 8:18 PM on March 4
But remember, the plan Fields describes is that he was hoping that even if outie Burt went to Hell, innie Burt might go to heaven, where he and Fields could meet, fall in love, and be together. But innie Irving ruined that plan by stealing innie Burt's love.
So I think there was a bitter edge to all that stuff Fields was saying about innies having a right to love and all that was a flowery way to demand to know whether Irving had sex with his husband or not.
The Lutheran church teaches that faith/belief in Jesus is the sole path to heaven, right? What on earth has outie Burt done that he'd go so far as the severance procedure to save part of himself from damnation?
Popular culture's version of Heaven and Hell--that your deeds get weighed and if the good outweighs the bad you go to Heaven--is so pervasive that it's not unrealistic to have Lutheran characters who believe that rather than what the Lutheran church teaches.
Actual Lutheran teaching is more like David Lynch's "Fix your hearts or die!" Who you are doesn't have to be a mere arithmetic sum of what you've done. Burt can be forgiven if he genuinely renounces his evil and chooses the way to becoming a better person, but I agree with everybody who suspects he thinks he's done something unforgivable for Lumen but is still working for them anyway.
But I also like torticat's idea that Burt had affair(s) at Lumen and the couple saw severance as a way for philandering at work to stay at work. Maybe it's both!
posted by straight at 8:18 PM on March 4
So impressed and delighted by how they brought all the love triangles to a head in a single episode. It might explain a few of the strained "Why haven't they asked/talked about this yet?" moments in previous episodes. Many writers rooms fail pretty hard writing around the problem of "They can't talk about X until we get to the episode on our calendar where they talk about X." But this episode was worth a few earlier quibbles.
Honestly is there a single line of dialogue in this show that doesn't have some kind of deeper relevance?
Lesser shows would have had Mark open a fortune cookie and read something that had some kind of deeper relevance. Severance scoffs at such amateur writing. Every line of dialogue is a fortune cookie.
posted by straight at 8:30 PM on March 4
Honestly is there a single line of dialogue in this show that doesn't have some kind of deeper relevance?
Lesser shows would have had Mark open a fortune cookie and read something that had some kind of deeper relevance. Severance scoffs at such amateur writing. Every line of dialogue is a fortune cookie.
posted by straight at 8:30 PM on March 4
Why did she deliberately refer to Gemma by the wrong name.
I don't know, but I had the impression that Mark thinks she slipped up and used the name she uses with Gemma's innie and this idea of Helena not only knowing Gemma is alive but actively using her somehow is what drove him into a rage to go full speed ahead on the reintegration plan.
posted by straight at 8:34 PM on March 4 [1 favorite]
I don't know, but I had the impression that Mark thinks she slipped up and used the name she uses with Gemma's innie and this idea of Helena not only knowing Gemma is alive but actively using her somehow is what drove him into a rage to go full speed ahead on the reintegration plan.
posted by straight at 8:34 PM on March 4 [1 favorite]
think I'm settling on Mark's work being some form of resurrection/reconstruction of his wife's personality and identity, with Lumon trying to get him to do this in a way that would allow them to replicate the process as part of their "world-domination" goals - basically, you sever everyone, and then you build the new innie inside of them out of scratch.
I think it’s a Dollhouse variant - like maybe once they’ve figured out how to sever the memories into half of the chip, and then learned to refine, they can place the chips into new bodies, or overwrite the chips to be the kind of people they want them to be. So like: having trouble with your rebellious wife? Bring her in for a procedure and she won’t be anymore. Having problems with a troublesome Party member? Bring them in, and they will never vote the wrong way again.
And I think also this has to do with Helena and the weird procedure her father was talking about in the bathroom - like maybe when the refining is done for him, then the values of him, or of Kier, will overwrite her own personality - and maybe that’s why she wants Mark for herself before that happens.
posted by corb at 9:11 PM on March 9
I think it’s a Dollhouse variant - like maybe once they’ve figured out how to sever the memories into half of the chip, and then learned to refine, they can place the chips into new bodies, or overwrite the chips to be the kind of people they want them to be. So like: having trouble with your rebellious wife? Bring her in for a procedure and she won’t be anymore. Having problems with a troublesome Party member? Bring them in, and they will never vote the wrong way again.
And I think also this has to do with Helena and the weird procedure her father was talking about in the bathroom - like maybe when the refining is done for him, then the values of him, or of Kier, will overwrite her own personality - and maybe that’s why she wants Mark for herself before that happens.
posted by corb at 9:11 PM on March 9
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Fascinating and unexpected to have an entire episode centered on love and heartbreak in the world of Severance.
I did not expect total deflation and resignedness to be Helly's response to finding out Mark had sex with Helena. But what a turnaround wit her and Mark being straightforward about what they want and going for it. Knew all those empty offices would come in handy, and I LOVE that they both checked and gave explicitly clear consent in light of what had happened.
That restaurant scene turned ugly as soon as Helena mentioned Gemma -- not that it was all that comfy beforehand. But their strange attraction to one another is certainly indicative of something. I really hope Mark stays with the reintegration medication protocols.
(MARK! Never tip your head back when you have a nosebleed!)
(Of course, their tent is translucent, unlike the opaque tents used in the ORTBO. Always able to be seen at Lumon.)
Gretchen and i-Dylan are kind of my favorites, and Gretchen lying to o-Dylan about it is only fanning those flames.
Milchick's "GROW UP" bit was unsettling.
Mark's brain switching is very much a horror movie, and the "uh-oh Petey had nosebleeds" moment is here. Ugh, Mark, *stay with the program*.
AND! If Reghabi is to be believed, Gemma is still "in there" in Ms Casey, and she's vital to whatever Lumon's doing.
Burt's reasoning for applying to Lumon is *fascinating* and something I'd never have considered before but now I'm obsessed with the idea. (Burt saying he was led to Lumon by "Jesus" when sitting across from "The Jesus" was -- possibly unintentionally -- hilarious). Fields' statement about innies deserving to find love, and the hope that what Burt and Irving had at work was beautiful, seemed very generous and broad-minded, if he's telling the truth. I wonder, if Severance were real, how would people's partners feel about the possibility/probability of innie love and intimacy?
(Do we think Burt worked for Lumon 20 years ago? And if so, was he severed or not, given the technology's timing?)
(I wonder how many people will get that "frolic" tattoo IRL. Who WAS that sneaking through Irv's stuff?)
That last shot of Burt, though... something is up.
And now: all hell breaks loose--
Yes
YES
The implant is out
(who did that cover of "Sunshine of Your Love" that played over the end credits? NICE)
(also nice non-reveal-reveal that Devon's bi)
posted by tzikeh at 7:15 PM on February 20 [5 favorites]