Succession: Kill List
April 24, 2023 3:46 AM - Season 4, Episode 5 - Subscribe
Everyone goes to Norway to get to a number.
What would Logan Roy do? That's the question on everyone's minds as the Roy children head to Norway to make Succession's endgame deal with Lukas Matsson (Alexander Skarsgård). Three weeks ago, Matsson was the most screwed-over character out of anyone on the show. Following Roy's death, he's back in play. But no one is acting normal—do they ever?—and the loss of the family's patriarch has frazzled everyone's brains. Esquire recap
In Succession’s world of toxic men, Alexander Skarsgård’s Matsson hits a chilling new low [The Independent]
What would Logan Roy do? That's the question on everyone's minds as the Roy children head to Norway to make Succession's endgame deal with Lukas Matsson (Alexander Skarsgård). Three weeks ago, Matsson was the most screwed-over character out of anyone on the show. Following Roy's death, he's back in play. But no one is acting normal—do they ever?—and the loss of the family's patriarch has frazzled everyone's brains. Esquire recap
In Succession’s world of toxic men, Alexander Skarsgård’s Matsson hits a chilling new low [The Independent]
I'm of the mind that everyone is played in one way or another.
I certainly would agree that it wasn't all some sort of Matsson master plan. I'd say the principals on both sides played their hands poorly, everyone behaved terribly, and yet everyone got either the result they wanted or the one they needed, with only their souls damaged in perpetuity. Plus ca change!
Matsson is so loathsome to me. Yes, they all are, that's the point, but I feel like I've met a Mattson or two in real life which just sort of triggers me when he's on screen, and made me enjoy the episode less than others in this season. I want them all to lose, but I want him to lose the most!
posted by chill at 6:29 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I certainly would agree that it wasn't all some sort of Matsson master plan. I'd say the principals on both sides played their hands poorly, everyone behaved terribly, and yet everyone got either the result they wanted or the one they needed, with only their souls damaged in perpetuity. Plus ca change!
Matsson is so loathsome to me. Yes, they all are, that's the point, but I feel like I've met a Mattson or two in real life which just sort of triggers me when he's on screen, and made me enjoy the episode less than others in this season. I want them all to lose, but I want him to lose the most!
posted by chill at 6:29 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Wow Skarsgård really nailed that performance. So awful. And not moustache-twirling awful, just kind of seedy and shitty. Him glowering out from his hoodie, putting all the Roys off balance. Doing bumps of coke with Shiv sitting there pretending to join in. He channeled a certain kind of Scandinavian attitude, something culturally unfamiliar in America. I don't mean the really weird stuff (like the blood) but rather the general brusque, distanced and yet actually intimate way he talked to the Roys.
Roman's going off on him on the mountain top was an excellent response to Matsson's awfulness. It's so weird to see Roman speak completely sincerely, without irony and with full emotion. Reading Matsson out, reading him the truth. I feel like the writers could only do that at this point in the show, so far along with Roman and the rest of the Roys so well established as awful, emotionally duplicitous people. So when Roman finally gets to be sincere it lands doubly hard. Of course it backfired entirely.
Some of the first half of the episode, the non-Matsson scenes, fell a little flat to me. Like there's been so much intensity in the writing the last two episodes that this one had to be a little more reversion to ordinary. But then the writers got in a couple of good ones. Karl and Frank sitting outside the sauna making fun of the "Peking ducks hanging in the window" was particularly funny.
posted by Nelson at 6:56 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Roman's going off on him on the mountain top was an excellent response to Matsson's awfulness. It's so weird to see Roman speak completely sincerely, without irony and with full emotion. Reading Matsson out, reading him the truth. I feel like the writers could only do that at this point in the show, so far along with Roman and the rest of the Roys so well established as awful, emotionally duplicitous people. So when Roman finally gets to be sincere it lands doubly hard. Of course it backfired entirely.
Some of the first half of the episode, the non-Matsson scenes, fell a little flat to me. Like there's been so much intensity in the writing the last two episodes that this one had to be a little more reversion to ordinary. But then the writers got in a couple of good ones. Karl and Frank sitting outside the sauna making fun of the "Peking ducks hanging in the window" was particularly funny.
posted by Nelson at 6:56 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Maybe a dumb question, but did they ever specify what the $192 price actually was? I see recaps suggesting it be the share price (which is what I suspect it is), but others saying it’s the total $192 (assuredly) billion. $192 billion sounds low for a corporation as large as Waystar.
posted by General Malaise at 9:07 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by General Malaise at 9:07 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Although I guess Disney’s current market cap is $180 billion, so, maybe not)
posted by General Malaise at 9:08 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by General Malaise at 9:08 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it's the per share price, and the kids were saying amongst themselves on the plane ride to Norway that $144 per share was their line of acceptability.
posted by Etrigan at 9:10 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 9:10 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Thanks, I thought I heard something to that effect, but couldn’t remember which conversation it was.
posted by General Malaise at 9:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by General Malaise at 9:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Karl remarks happily about that extra five dollars. As in five dollars per share.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:36 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:36 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Matsson is such a fantastically well-wrought tech guy. That combination of, incredibly sharp on some levels, very aware that he's the only one in the room that understands the most important financial sector at stake here, and simultaneously so convinced that he's both the smartest and the powerfulest that he continually says and does some really stupid shit, mixed with a weird reflexive anxiety about it even as it's happening.
If Logan had survived, Logan would have eaten him alive. And I won't lie: I felt a little savage glee that Roman's telling him to go fuck himself had the result that it did. Such a cynical and satisfying twist.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:42 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
If Logan had survived, Logan would have eaten him alive. And I won't lie: I felt a little savage glee that Roman's telling him to go fuck himself had the result that it did. Such a cynical and satisfying twist.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:42 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't think Shiv is masterminding anyone exactly, but she is basically getting what she wants: getting rid of a "toxic asset" at an insane premium. My understanding (I could be wrong) was that $144 per share was the original deal for everything but ATN, Matsson offered the CEOBros $187 per share including ATN, and then he brought the $192 offer to Karl so the CEOBros couldn't kill it before the Board found out.
I think there's an argument in favor of holding onto ATN for the power of it -- Logan understood this -- but Roman and Kendall seem to want it for personal or petty reasons. If Shiv doesn't want to spearhead ATN's fascist cheerleading, selling ATN for a lot of money to someone who might actually destroy it for you is the best possible scenario. I liked Shiv's pitch on this: "let's just keep one of [Dad's] old sweaters, that's less racist."
LMAO at the idea that "boar on the floor" leadership made Logan's yes-men stronger. That said, Gerri is an excellent person to keep on! She has institutional knowledge of where all the bodies are buried. Everyone else is useless, though.
"Oh, yes, Tom. Of Siobhan." Look, I've never been remotely convinced by Tom/Shiv as a couple, but Shiv's bully-flirting was kind of hot?
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:51 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think there's an argument in favor of holding onto ATN for the power of it -- Logan understood this -- but Roman and Kendall seem to want it for personal or petty reasons. If Shiv doesn't want to spearhead ATN's fascist cheerleading, selling ATN for a lot of money to someone who might actually destroy it for you is the best possible scenario. I liked Shiv's pitch on this: "let's just keep one of [Dad's] old sweaters, that's less racist."
LMAO at the idea that "boar on the floor" leadership made Logan's yes-men stronger. That said, Gerri is an excellent person to keep on! She has institutional knowledge of where all the bodies are buried. Everyone else is useless, though.
"Oh, yes, Tom. Of Siobhan." Look, I've never been remotely convinced by Tom/Shiv as a couple, but Shiv's bully-flirting was kind of hot?
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:51 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I like that Tom survived because his desperate obviousness works with the Swedes: he just directly told one of their execs that he's their guy if they need answers at ATN and that seemed to have impressed them, while all the other Waystar people were posturing and scheming and turning the Gojo people off.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:58 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:58 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Matsson calling BS on Kendall's transparent maneuvering was hilarious.
"Is that where you went? Hanna-Barbera fucking business school? You're telling me the theme parks are haunted and your big movie is shitty? Are you tanking the deal?"
...
"I think he'd be embarrassed if he saw you two now. His two big boys playing Scooby-Doos."
They really aren't serious people.
I find myself rooting for Kendall, despite my values, but wow is he a sheltered entitled idiot.
Does that play?
posted by yonega at 11:04 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Is that where you went? Hanna-Barbera fucking business school? You're telling me the theme parks are haunted and your big movie is shitty? Are you tanking the deal?"
...
"I think he'd be embarrassed if he saw you two now. His two big boys playing Scooby-Doos."
They really aren't serious people.
I find myself rooting for Kendall, despite my values, but wow is he a sheltered entitled idiot.
Does that play?
posted by yonega at 11:04 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
It is like Kendall can only be in control if there is chaos all happening. He goes up the mountain with a very clear goal, but his eyes glow with excitement when he sees a way to mix it all up.
Is Roman genuine is asking for Shiv's involvement, and Kendall is ignoring him?
posted by armacy at 11:08 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is Roman genuine is asking for Shiv's involvement, and Kendall is ignoring him?
posted by armacy at 11:08 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is Roman genuine is asking for Shiv's involvement, and Kendall is ignoring him?
I think so. Roman has always been the most interested in them being a family: he wanted to go to Kendall's birthday party last season, he wanted to go to Connor's wedding this season, and he asked if they could talk more often in the first season (for which he was immediately mocked). It makes sense to me that he's actually really on board with the idea of the three of them working together.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:13 AM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think so. Roman has always been the most interested in them being a family: he wanted to go to Kendall's birthday party last season, he wanted to go to Connor's wedding this season, and he asked if they could talk more often in the first season (for which he was immediately mocked). It makes sense to me that he's actually really on board with the idea of the three of them working together.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:13 AM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
It is like Kendall can only be in control if there is chaos all happening. He goes up the mountain with a very clear goal, but his eyes glow with excitement when he sees a way to mix it all up.
Maybe, if he can't identify who, in a given situation, is in control, he can pretend it is he who is in control.
It's a twisted version of "If you can't spot the crazy person on the bus, it's you."
posted by yonega at 11:18 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe, if he can't identify who, in a given situation, is in control, he can pretend it is he who is in control.
It's a twisted version of "If you can't spot the crazy person on the bus, it's you."
posted by yonega at 11:18 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you had told me before the season premiered that I would be Team Karl & Frank, I wouldn't have believed you, but I love them and their compression socks and Greek Islands and one-liners.
Are we seeing the first glimmers of a Shiv renaissance? A Shiv-aissance?
I appreciated the last-minute demand that everyone come to Sweden so we could keep the group together. I also saw someone on Reddit note that the people who eat first (or at all) are the losers on this show. Taking that observation in the context of Roman not only not eating but sticking his finger in the food, there really is something about that. A disdain for the things regular people want and need, maybe.
posted by jeoc at 11:19 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Are we seeing the first glimmers of a Shiv renaissance? A Shiv-aissance?
I appreciated the last-minute demand that everyone come to Sweden so we could keep the group together. I also saw someone on Reddit note that the people who eat first (or at all) are the losers on this show. Taking that observation in the context of Roman not only not eating but sticking his finger in the food, there really is something about that. A disdain for the things regular people want and need, maybe.
posted by jeoc at 11:19 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ken’s tactics really are hilariously transparent. He’s aping Logan without understanding.
The deal is half stock, so they really are screwed if GoJo drives ATN into the ground through mismanagement, or misunderstanding market segment. Fox News would certainly crater if someone bought it and tried to turn it into Bloomberg.
posted by supercres at 11:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
The deal is half stock, so they really are screwed if GoJo drives ATN into the ground through mismanagement, or misunderstanding market segment. Fox News would certainly crater if someone bought it and tried to turn it into Bloomberg.
posted by supercres at 11:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
He’s aping Logan without understanding.
Ka-RAY-oke
I hear that you're building your little house deep in the desert
You're living for nothing now, I hope you're keeping some kind of record
posted by chavenet at 12:03 PM on April 24, 2023
Ka-RAY-oke
I hear that you're building your little house deep in the desert
You're living for nothing now, I hope you're keeping some kind of record
posted by chavenet at 12:03 PM on April 24, 2023
How does Jess get all this stuff done? The only thing she hasn't been able to accomplish for Ken is bringing his father back from the dead.
posted by jeoc at 12:39 PM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by jeoc at 12:39 PM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
what if they kill kendal? he is breaking bad, he has that glint in his eye..
posted by shothotbot at 12:55 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by shothotbot at 12:55 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fox News would certainly crater if someone bought it and tried to turn it into Bloomberg.
Matsson suffers from the same blindness as the real-life tech industry, an obsession with the young. He's 100% wrong: TV for old people is absolutely the future. Old people are a huge and growing segment of the population and have all the money.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:02 PM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Matsson suffers from the same blindness as the real-life tech industry, an obsession with the young. He's 100% wrong: TV for old people is absolutely the future. Old people are a huge and growing segment of the population and have all the money.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:02 PM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Also, was Shiv drinking alcohol in her her glasses or was that water? And I can't remember if she actually did the drugs Matsson offered. If she's faking drinking to hide her pregnancy it seems like someone would notice in such a small, closed group.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:09 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:09 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
At 20+ weeks you can absolutely have a drink here and there without creating any problems. I'm pretty sure she didn't do the coke though.
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:14 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:14 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The glass seemed to always have the same amount of whisky in it through the whole scene so either it was small sips or fake sips. And she just sort of fumbled around with the drugs and handed it back.
posted by chill at 1:44 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by chill at 1:44 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Did Shiv's dinner invitation to Tom occur before or after we found out he was not on the "first draft" of the kill list? Also, I'm pretty sure she wasn't drinking.
The scenes between Mattson, Ken, and Roman were just incredible. Two fumbling fools meet with an apex predator. In fact, the Vikings pretty much ransacked the entire Waystar village. Mattson has a lot of faults but he came in with a notion of taking ATN and he succeeded. Logan would have definitely told him to "fuck off".
posted by Ber at 1:55 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The scenes between Mattson, Ken, and Roman were just incredible. Two fumbling fools meet with an apex predator. In fact, the Vikings pretty much ransacked the entire Waystar village. Mattson has a lot of faults but he came in with a notion of taking ATN and he succeeded. Logan would have definitely told him to "fuck off".
posted by Ber at 1:55 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
"What, this? The majestic stags sparring with their memory foam hard-ons?"
posted by cocoagirl at 1:59 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by cocoagirl at 1:59 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Olds rolling up and snapping compression socks into place on the plane had me pausing to laugh. They're understandably freaked out about the whole thing that happened the last time they were on a plane and trying to do their best to prevent being next.
Con at the funeral home, "Ya know, I got a pretty full plate here, I just had to cancel on a room full of working-class whites in Cleveland." Still SO focused on that polling toward 1%.
And oh my GOODNESS! That scene with Shiv and Matsson. Another moment I had to pause.
"I sent her some of my blood, half a liter, frozen blood brick... as a joke."
Even in this situation, Shiv is being forced to play therapist and "cool girl" (literally being praised as being cool and not judgemental) when being told that totally unhinged, terrifying, and illegal shit by a powerful man.
And proceeds to give him advice!! That he can't feign ignorance because they literally have his blood! I feel like this is a familiar scene for many of us to some degree, blood-sending may or may not be included.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:31 PM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
Con at the funeral home, "Ya know, I got a pretty full plate here, I just had to cancel on a room full of working-class whites in Cleveland." Still SO focused on that polling toward 1%.
And oh my GOODNESS! That scene with Shiv and Matsson. Another moment I had to pause.
"I sent her some of my blood, half a liter, frozen blood brick... as a joke."
Even in this situation, Shiv is being forced to play therapist and "cool girl" (literally being praised as being cool and not judgemental) when being told that totally unhinged, terrifying, and illegal shit by a powerful man.
And proceeds to give him advice!! That he can't feign ignorance because they literally have his blood! I feel like this is a familiar scene for many of us to some degree, blood-sending may or may not be included.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:31 PM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
Like all good episodes of Succession, everything and nothing happened, and nobody’s motives are any clearer.
posted by oldnumberseven at 6:10 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by oldnumberseven at 6:10 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is it possible that the whole "frozen blood" story was a bunch of crap just to throw the kids off kilter?
posted by Marky at 12:11 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Marky at 12:11 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not to mention Matsson exposed a major weakness if his "frozen blood" story is true.
I have a feeling it is a way to set up Shiv. It felt like a flashback to when she was manipulated by Rhea Jerrell into a backroom deal with PGN/Pierce, which then backfired on her when Logan called her in to tell her she wouldn't be running the company, as a result.
Shiv is easily manipulated and I suspect Matsson knows it. The blood stuff seems a way to feel out where her loyalties really lie.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:05 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have a feeling it is a way to set up Shiv. It felt like a flashback to when she was manipulated by Rhea Jerrell into a backroom deal with PGN/Pierce, which then backfired on her when Logan called her in to tell her she wouldn't be running the company, as a result.
Shiv is easily manipulated and I suspect Matsson knows it. The blood stuff seems a way to feel out where her loyalties really lie.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:05 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mattson has a lot of faults but he came in with a notion of taking ATN and he succeeded. Logan would have definitely told him to "fuck off".
There is a great deal that could be written about the way swearing is employed in Succession. Of course, business etiquette cautions that we should not swear because it is likely to be misinterpreted (particularly with international audiences) or because it can make us look we have a limited vocabulary - or issues with anger management. Of course, all that politesse , like cleaning or cooking, is considered by the Roys and those who wish to be at their level - as utterly being a rule for those well down the food chain. Of course, many of us also grew up in an era where even the mildest bad language would be expunged from a TV show too.
Logan's "fuck off" - frequently employed, succinct but also heartfelt and carefully targetted - is a good example of "power swearing". And we also see Roman abuse Matsson with great eloquence in this episode. But, particular for Romand and Kendall - swearing also covers up for poorly articulated emotions or lack of anything more meaningful to contribute. It is much weaker swearing in that context.
posted by rongorongo at 1:58 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
There is a great deal that could be written about the way swearing is employed in Succession. Of course, business etiquette cautions that we should not swear because it is likely to be misinterpreted (particularly with international audiences) or because it can make us look we have a limited vocabulary - or issues with anger management. Of course, all that politesse , like cleaning or cooking, is considered by the Roys and those who wish to be at their level - as utterly being a rule for those well down the food chain. Of course, many of us also grew up in an era where even the mildest bad language would be expunged from a TV show too.
Logan's "fuck off" - frequently employed, succinct but also heartfelt and carefully targetted - is a good example of "power swearing". And we also see Roman abuse Matsson with great eloquence in this episode. But, particular for Romand and Kendall - swearing also covers up for poorly articulated emotions or lack of anything more meaningful to contribute. It is much weaker swearing in that context.
posted by rongorongo at 1:58 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Shiv is easily manipulated and I suspect Matsson knows it. The blood stuff seems a way to feel out where her loyalties really lie.
On the other hand, Shiv did advise Matsson correctly "if you go higher, its a guarantee" - with specific reference to the board being likely to be the ones who would accept the offer should Roman or Kendal try to put up barriers. At this stage it is Matsson who, in many ways, is being lined up as Logan's true successor - and in that context, his relationship with Shiv could play out interestingly in the upcoming episodes. Both characters are manipulatable and both are, in turn, also cold blooded manipulators. I don't think we know if either of them are looking at a particular end-game here: but my guess is that both indeed are.
posted by rongorongo at 3:29 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, Shiv did advise Matsson correctly "if you go higher, its a guarantee" - with specific reference to the board being likely to be the ones who would accept the offer should Roman or Kendal try to put up barriers. At this stage it is Matsson who, in many ways, is being lined up as Logan's true successor - and in that context, his relationship with Shiv could play out interestingly in the upcoming episodes. Both characters are manipulatable and both are, in turn, also cold blooded manipulators. I don't think we know if either of them are looking at a particular end-game here: but my guess is that both indeed are.
posted by rongorongo at 3:29 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I enjoyed this attempt to figure out how much Waystar Royco is worth, who has what voting power, and how much the "kids" are worth: https://www.ft.com/content/a7ce31e0-06f0-4986-9eb9-f4322a40ffc3
As soon as they all headed off to a retreat in Norway I expected an awkward comedy scene involving a sauna – Kendall and Roman trying to be businesslike while confronted with a naked Matsson, or Tom and Gregg saying terrible things. So I salute the restraint of the writers in only giving us a moment of Karl and Frank outside.
posted by fabius at 5:14 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
As soon as they all headed off to a retreat in Norway I expected an awkward comedy scene involving a sauna – Kendall and Roman trying to be businesslike while confronted with a naked Matsson, or Tom and Gregg saying terrible things. So I salute the restraint of the writers in only giving us a moment of Karl and Frank outside.
posted by fabius at 5:14 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, Shiv did advise Matsson correctly "if you go higher, its a guarantee" - with specific reference to the board being likely to be the ones who would accept the offer should Roman or Kendal try to put up barriers.
But Matsson was right in his response to her “advice”: that’s completely obvious in this kind of transaction. It’s another example, like Ken and Roman’s transparent attempts to sink the deal, of the Roy kids thinking they’re being clever or profound but coming off as laughably childish to people with real experience.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:02 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
But Matsson was right in his response to her “advice”: that’s completely obvious in this kind of transaction. It’s another example, like Ken and Roman’s transparent attempts to sink the deal, of the Roy kids thinking they’re being clever or profound but coming off as laughably childish to people with real experience.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:02 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Important question from the Firecrotch and Normcore podcast: What podcasts is Matsson listening to when he is having sex with randos?
posted by shothotbot at 7:10 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by shothotbot at 7:10 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
> Maybe a dumb question, but did they ever specify what the $192 price actually was?
I saw others saying $192 billion. That's insane. It's $192 a share. Public company acquisitions are always decided on a per-share basis.
posted by dis_integration at 7:13 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I saw others saying $192 billion. That's insane. It's $192 a share. Public company acquisitions are always decided on a per-share basis.
posted by dis_integration at 7:13 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
What podcasts is Matsson listening to when he is having sex with randos?
Serial. It's always Serial.
posted by Etrigan at 8:03 AM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Serial. It's always Serial.
posted by Etrigan at 8:03 AM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
It looks to me like Matsson sees two out of three sibs in the CEO role, correctly judges that Shiv is the slow gazelle, and is successfully separating her from the herd. I see it as no accident that the kill list doesn't include Carolina or Gerri, both of whom Shiv told Matsson were useful, nor does it include Tom "of Siobhan." That's a signal to Shiv, and payment for her services (which she misses). Because her brothers have immediately taken Shiv out of the loop, she doesn't appreciate the ways in which Matsson is using her to further his own goals and undermine theirs. I agree that the show is also siding with Ken on the ATN issue - Ken seems to be right that Matsson doesn't understand what he's buying and will tank it - but Matsson is still successfully exploiting the sibling dysfunction.
I mean, what do I know, of course.
posted by prefpara at 8:09 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, what do I know, of course.
posted by prefpara at 8:09 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Matsson is so loathsome to me. Yes, they all are, that's the point, but I feel like I've met a Mattson or two in real life which just sort of triggers me when he's on screen, and made me enjoy the episode less than others in this season. I want them all to lose, but I want him to lose the most!
Yep. I've worked with and encountered a number of Matsson-types, and despite the Roys being awful awful people, I want him to lose if it's a choice between the Roys and Mattson. Hands down.
The Matssons I've worked with are very smart and very very good at certain aspects of business, but also tend to be amoral, happy to sacrifice the team/company for their own personal success, and the types who move up by flouting rules / creating chaos in ways that nobody will call them on. They tend to flourish in business personally while making the world worse in the process.
I guess that's not much different than the Roys, but I haven't had first-hand experience with those types...
posted by jzb at 8:26 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yep. I've worked with and encountered a number of Matsson-types, and despite the Roys being awful awful people, I want him to lose if it's a choice between the Roys and Mattson. Hands down.
The Matssons I've worked with are very smart and very very good at certain aspects of business, but also tend to be amoral, happy to sacrifice the team/company for their own personal success, and the types who move up by flouting rules / creating chaos in ways that nobody will call them on. They tend to flourish in business personally while making the world worse in the process.
I guess that's not much different than the Roys, but I haven't had first-hand experience with those types...
posted by jzb at 8:26 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
It seems to me that they're all wrong. Ken and Roman manage to get a good price for the deal, but only by accident, when they've decided they want to scuttle it. Lukas pulls one power play after another to show the Roys who's boss, but winds up having to overpay for the deal since it's the only power move left to him in response to Roman's (emotional, reflexive) "we hate you and won't sell".
And yes, Lukas doesn't understand what he's buying and will probably ruin it (like a certain real-life tech-bro billionaire who talked himself into a corner and wound up overpaying for a "parts shop" of a business), but Lukas is also right that the sibs are just a "tribute band" (ouch!) who wouldn't do any better with it.
posted by Zonker at 8:31 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
And yes, Lukas doesn't understand what he's buying and will probably ruin it (like a certain real-life tech-bro billionaire who talked himself into a corner and wound up overpaying for a "parts shop" of a business), but Lukas is also right that the sibs are just a "tribute band" (ouch!) who wouldn't do any better with it.
posted by Zonker at 8:31 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I really have no idea how the rest of the season will go (which is a great sign actually) except that the Roy Kids have to fail somehow. Ken has yet to have his addiction rear its head again, Roman's vulnerability and inner trauma just popped and seems to have actually worked somehow, but not in a way that emotionally satisfies him, the Baby is still to Emerge as a public plot point, so much left! At that price they *have* to sell since they no longer control the board (and turning down the offer would be lawsuit / SEC violation territory). I still think Tom will end up on top somehow, he's a weirdo but a true killer.
What I do know is that "Tom, of Siobhan" is my favorite joke yet. Imagining the Tom of Finland style horny comics featuring Wambsgam's goofy ass is delightful.
posted by dis_integration at 8:49 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
What I do know is that "Tom, of Siobhan" is my favorite joke yet. Imagining the Tom of Finland style horny comics featuring Wambsgam's goofy ass is delightful.
posted by dis_integration at 8:49 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I still think Tom will end up on top somehow, he's a weirdo but a true killer.
I agree with this. Tom, of Siobhan is my favorite.
posted by chavenet at 8:57 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree with this. Tom, of Siobhan is my favorite.
posted by chavenet at 8:57 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
The strange thing is that Matsson didn’t have to up the offer even as a power play. He knew the ATN thing was a personal issue for the boys, he could have just contacted the Board and said, “Now that Logan’s gone I’ll only do the deal with ATN included I offered the boys $187 for that but they’re too emotional over their dad’s death. I don’t have time for petty bullshit, take the offer or I walk” and the Board would have accepted. We know this because everyone was champing at the bit to close the deal ASAP except the kids.
Wouldn’t that have been the humiliating power play, driving home to Ken and Roman how weak and impotent they really are?
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:11 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wouldn’t that have been the humiliating power play, driving home to Ken and Roman how weak and impotent they really are?
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:11 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Board could have approved the sale, but I think Lukas saw that there was some truth in Roman's threats to be "sand in the gears" and drag things out endlessly. The only way around that was to offer so much money that even the Roys would have to sign on.
posted by Zonker at 9:31 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Zonker at 9:31 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
There is a great deal that could be written about the way swearing is employed in Succession
Agreed, and I’d really like to see it compared and contrasted with The Thick Of It and Peep Show, his former shows, it’s a major component of both.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:28 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Agreed, and I’d really like to see it compared and contrasted with The Thick Of It and Peep Show, his former shows, it’s a major component of both.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:28 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
At first I didn't think I was going to be rewatching this one because of the high cringe factor, but once the main characters fell ass-backward into a victory, that made it much more rewatchable. This was a very funny episode. Shiv especially got an unusually high number of great lines. ("Half a liter? Wow! Well, obviously, first of all, good one.")
On rewatch, wow! The CEBros are just sooooo bad at this, at even pretending to be able to do this, from the start. Literally everybody, even some real dummies, appears more competent than they are. Every moment they're on screen, they're failing at some small or big part of what they're there to do, and Roman only pulls out a win by trying to do the opposite. It's very funny.
Also, it's slow going, but I think Greg is making headway. I don't know if I'm bold enough to predict he'll end up on top in the end, but something is coming, Greg-wise.
posted by lampoil at 1:00 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
On rewatch, wow! The CEBros are just sooooo bad at this, at even pretending to be able to do this, from the start. Literally everybody, even some real dummies, appears more competent than they are. Every moment they're on screen, they're failing at some small or big part of what they're there to do, and Roman only pulls out a win by trying to do the opposite. It's very funny.
Also, it's slow going, but I think Greg is making headway. I don't know if I'm bold enough to predict he'll end up on top in the end, but something is coming, Greg-wise.
posted by lampoil at 1:00 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
My house is obsessed with Logan's cardigan sweaters; it seemed like Roman was wearing one of them last night and others think so too.
Which makes Shiv's line "keep one of his sweaters, it is less racist" even better.
posted by armacy at 1:03 PM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Which makes Shiv's line "keep one of his sweaters, it is less racist" even better.
posted by armacy at 1:03 PM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I just rewatched a chunk of The Thick of It! After Connor's Wedding, I needed a mid-week Succession fix. 😂
And man, let me tell you: after Succession, Malcolm Tucker comes off as a borderline protagonist. Yes, he's a monster who drives a man to kill himself, but at least he has an ethos, Dude.
The interesting thing about language in general, and swearing in particular, on Armstrong's (and Armando Iannucci's) shows is that tension is often located precisely between what people think they are and aren't allowed to say. Power is denoted in one of two ways: either someone is free to say anything that needs saying without repercussion, or they know how to get away without saying it. In between, you have the squirming of people who are forced to say something they wish they didn't have to say, and the bawdier farce of people who think they can say a thing, then get smacked around with the fact that they can't.
Logan is/was a master of both kinds of power. His tempos as early as the pilot are defined by how abruptly he opens conversations, and how quickly he leaves them. And despite how bluntly he reduces everything to a "fuck off," he's extraordinarily good at avoiding conversations that he doesn't want to have, steering people away from even thinking that there's something to talk about. (These are both very much Malcolm Tucker traits too: Malcolm was put in far more situations than Logan where he had information to hide, got pressed into revealing it, and cussed his way around having to say anything directly.)
Upper management tends towards the "know how not to say things" flavor of power. Gerri's an undisputed champ where that's concerned; Karl is frequently given shit by Logan, but rarely winds up in the spotlight when shit hits the fan; Hugo is an outright snake and I love it. The kids, meanwhile, are each unique mixture of powerful and clownish. Roman was extremely foul early on because he knew he could get away with it, and on a deeper level understood that he wasn't taken seriously; at the same time, he's so uncomfortable when he does need to put himself out there that he physically worm-flops away from tension. Kendall hilariously tried to tell that banker to fuck off early on; I think he's typically far likelier to overreach in his bluntness, but has a surprisingly good poker face when he's conservative. And Shiv alternates between a visceral aversion to revealing her emotions and a very blithe presumption that she can just say what's on her mind, because it's the right thing to say and therefore it's correct of her to say it.
The Thick of It, by contrast, was focused so low down on the totem pole that it centered a personality type that we don't see a lot of on Succession: people who fundamentally don't have any power, and can barely wield power over each other. Malcolm himself has very little power apart from his reputation, but is so good at wielding that reputation that people almost never challenge him over it, which winds up being nearly as effective. (One fascinating thing about The Thick of It that never gets commented on is that, in the very few instances where literally anybody stands up to him, Malcolm doesn't really do anything about it.) In Veep, though, some people do hold a measure of power (especially Selena), but never very much. So there you have something like a blend of Succession and Thick of It personality types, which leads to some fascinating interactions between the relative lords and serfs: the actual politicians get far terser and less patient, while their employees turn pale and very quiet. (Though in Veep there's also the fun twist that the public holds a disproportionate amount of power over politicians, usually without quite understanding why.)
One very interesting thing about Veep is that, because the British team pretty much left the show after season four, the show's writing changes abruptly. While it maintains a superficial veneer of the same kinds of patter, the writing gets a lot broader, with profanity used purely for color rather than as an exploration of character dynamics. I know a few people who far prefer Veep from season 5 onwards, in part because its approach to political narrative changed to be about more than just executive (heh) dysfunction, but personally the change was jarring enough to me that it took a few attempts for me to get past literally the first 3 minutes of the new show. So you get a neat sense for what Armstrong et al. were doing because, on Veep, it all abruptly vanishes.
What makes Matsson such a fascinating wild card, at least for me, is that it's still not entirely clear how much of his own bluntness and transparency is a manifestation of serious power, how much of it is a cultural-upbringing thing, how much is a weird double-bluff, and how much is genuine erraticism. It looks like reviewers are completely scattered in their interpretations of him: some think that he's a Machiavellian mastermind, some people think he's a prick who gets away with it because he's holding all the cards, and some people think he's a catastrophic fuck-up. I'm torn between the first and last of those interpretations: on the one hand, I love Machiavellian characters, and on the other, pretty much every tech CEO has shat the bed over the last 18 months (with the exception of maybe Tim Cook, who's got maybe the least Succession-y personality imaginable). But the ambiguity is what's so neat about him—since even Logan got tripped up over it, a couple of times over. Unless he didn't, and was gearing up to screw Matsson over, seeing as that's what Logan's done to everybody else always.
I've talked before about how I think that Tom makes for a fascinating Rosetta Stone for all this. It's not just that Tom is one of the weirdest mixtures of powerful and powerless on the show, or that he showed a spine to Logan in ways that almost nobody ever has, or that he's far less proficient at the kind of clever evasiveness than the rest of the top brass. It's that Tom wears all of this as a conspicuous second skin: he admits to playing the game more than is probably wise, and seems to waver between genuine soft-heartedness and a level of cruelty that's so excessive that, to me, it reads as performative. The way he bragged about eating his own cum while seeking Greg's reassurance that doing that is masculine and hot is also the way he comes off to me when he's doing stuff with human furniture and so forth: almost like he's trying out ways of abusing power while looking for somebody to tell him that he's abusing it right. And Tom's flavor of verbal abuse is almost as gross as Roman's, if not grosser: it's like he's trying to mimic the ways that other people say awful things, and doesn't exactly know how to do it.
One things Jesse Armstrong says a lot (and has been asked about a lot) is that every character's form of insult should say something about the person saying it. To me, that has to do with more than just who has which hang-ups: it reveals where each person thinks the lines of power are drawn, and how they think they can afford to cut through them. Roman's more nihilistic and vulgar because he sees the formal trappings as a farce masquerading a Roman circus; Kendall frames extremely cruel lines as him "just being sensible," but reverts to juvenile and nasty threats when he gets genuinely upset (especially if it's a woman that upset him). Logan was continually testy and impatient with other people's perceived faults, but erupted into rage if he felt like someone was genuinely defying him. Matsson gives off an air of perpetual boredom, like he barely cares that other people are in the room—which to some extent is itself a negotiation tactic, but not entirely.
And to extend this train of thought out way more broadly than anybody wants it to go, it's worth pointing out that Armando Iannucci got his start working with Chris Morris on On The Hour and The Day Today, both of which are parodies of the kinds of network that ATN is also a parody of—the ATN headlines in the title sequence are extremely Day Today-esque. Armstrong was one of the few British satirists who didn't work on those programs, but he co-wrote both of Morris's feature films. And one of Morris's central preoccupations is with veneers of respectability masking something that's fundamentally disordered and irrational; Iannucci typically focuses on the people who're trying to maintain that veneer for personal gain, whereas Morris dwells a lot more on the madness itself, and on the surreality of society trying to pretend like things make sense. So even beyond The Thick of It and Veep and In the Loop—the latter of which features David Rasche, AKA Karl, as the nastiest US senator ever put on-screen—Armstrong has done a lot of work that begins from the worldview that, because those in power can choose what veneer gets presented as "sane" and "rational," the world's afflictions arise from that dissonance between the things we're conditioned to accept and the reasons we're being conditioned to accept them in the first place.
From this vantage point, Logan is basically the horrors of the world manifested in human form: he holds no illusions, except that nothing else is possible, and alternates between a weary man who barely cares about the trappings he's waltzing through and the sheer fury he fires off at anyone who dares to suggest that there's more to the world than this. His greatest tantrums at Ken and Shiv and the Pierces all come about when they posit that some of those high-minded values, whether they're about business ethics (Ken) or human ethics (Shiv) or cultural ethics (the Pierces); he sees all of those as power masquerading as something else, and either despises the illusion or the suggestion that he, Logan Roy, could ever be taken in by such nonsense.
And while Veep and The Thick of It are centered around politics, in which that mixture of false-front and inner-madness is always at the forefront—and whose characters were always caught precisely between the two—Succession is located somewhat differently. Nobody buys into the veneer, or even has to act like they believe it. Even the cruise-scandal stuff barely touches anybody. And there's a horrifying sense that finance and business, which are the real centers of power, is only relatively calmer, in the sense that none of these people have to give a fuck what the hoi polloi think. Which is why Succession maybe only works as a family drama: the only people these people could ever care about are themselves.
(I'm a fanatic fan of Iannucci and Morris, so please forgive my comment's inopportune girth. The fact that someone gave an Iannucci/Morris collaborator a glossy HBO drama brings me unbelievably deep delight, and Succession is imo the best-written show of all time, excepting maybe Deadwood.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 1:17 PM on April 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
And man, let me tell you: after Succession, Malcolm Tucker comes off as a borderline protagonist. Yes, he's a monster who drives a man to kill himself, but at least he has an ethos, Dude.
The interesting thing about language in general, and swearing in particular, on Armstrong's (and Armando Iannucci's) shows is that tension is often located precisely between what people think they are and aren't allowed to say. Power is denoted in one of two ways: either someone is free to say anything that needs saying without repercussion, or they know how to get away without saying it. In between, you have the squirming of people who are forced to say something they wish they didn't have to say, and the bawdier farce of people who think they can say a thing, then get smacked around with the fact that they can't.
Logan is/was a master of both kinds of power. His tempos as early as the pilot are defined by how abruptly he opens conversations, and how quickly he leaves them. And despite how bluntly he reduces everything to a "fuck off," he's extraordinarily good at avoiding conversations that he doesn't want to have, steering people away from even thinking that there's something to talk about. (These are both very much Malcolm Tucker traits too: Malcolm was put in far more situations than Logan where he had information to hide, got pressed into revealing it, and cussed his way around having to say anything directly.)
Upper management tends towards the "know how not to say things" flavor of power. Gerri's an undisputed champ where that's concerned; Karl is frequently given shit by Logan, but rarely winds up in the spotlight when shit hits the fan; Hugo is an outright snake and I love it. The kids, meanwhile, are each unique mixture of powerful and clownish. Roman was extremely foul early on because he knew he could get away with it, and on a deeper level understood that he wasn't taken seriously; at the same time, he's so uncomfortable when he does need to put himself out there that he physically worm-flops away from tension. Kendall hilariously tried to tell that banker to fuck off early on; I think he's typically far likelier to overreach in his bluntness, but has a surprisingly good poker face when he's conservative. And Shiv alternates between a visceral aversion to revealing her emotions and a very blithe presumption that she can just say what's on her mind, because it's the right thing to say and therefore it's correct of her to say it.
The Thick of It, by contrast, was focused so low down on the totem pole that it centered a personality type that we don't see a lot of on Succession: people who fundamentally don't have any power, and can barely wield power over each other. Malcolm himself has very little power apart from his reputation, but is so good at wielding that reputation that people almost never challenge him over it, which winds up being nearly as effective. (One fascinating thing about The Thick of It that never gets commented on is that, in the very few instances where literally anybody stands up to him, Malcolm doesn't really do anything about it.) In Veep, though, some people do hold a measure of power (especially Selena), but never very much. So there you have something like a blend of Succession and Thick of It personality types, which leads to some fascinating interactions between the relative lords and serfs: the actual politicians get far terser and less patient, while their employees turn pale and very quiet. (Though in Veep there's also the fun twist that the public holds a disproportionate amount of power over politicians, usually without quite understanding why.)
One very interesting thing about Veep is that, because the British team pretty much left the show after season four, the show's writing changes abruptly. While it maintains a superficial veneer of the same kinds of patter, the writing gets a lot broader, with profanity used purely for color rather than as an exploration of character dynamics. I know a few people who far prefer Veep from season 5 onwards, in part because its approach to political narrative changed to be about more than just executive (heh) dysfunction, but personally the change was jarring enough to me that it took a few attempts for me to get past literally the first 3 minutes of the new show. So you get a neat sense for what Armstrong et al. were doing because, on Veep, it all abruptly vanishes.
What makes Matsson such a fascinating wild card, at least for me, is that it's still not entirely clear how much of his own bluntness and transparency is a manifestation of serious power, how much of it is a cultural-upbringing thing, how much is a weird double-bluff, and how much is genuine erraticism. It looks like reviewers are completely scattered in their interpretations of him: some think that he's a Machiavellian mastermind, some people think he's a prick who gets away with it because he's holding all the cards, and some people think he's a catastrophic fuck-up. I'm torn between the first and last of those interpretations: on the one hand, I love Machiavellian characters, and on the other, pretty much every tech CEO has shat the bed over the last 18 months (with the exception of maybe Tim Cook, who's got maybe the least Succession-y personality imaginable). But the ambiguity is what's so neat about him—since even Logan got tripped up over it, a couple of times over. Unless he didn't, and was gearing up to screw Matsson over, seeing as that's what Logan's done to everybody else always.
I've talked before about how I think that Tom makes for a fascinating Rosetta Stone for all this. It's not just that Tom is one of the weirdest mixtures of powerful and powerless on the show, or that he showed a spine to Logan in ways that almost nobody ever has, or that he's far less proficient at the kind of clever evasiveness than the rest of the top brass. It's that Tom wears all of this as a conspicuous second skin: he admits to playing the game more than is probably wise, and seems to waver between genuine soft-heartedness and a level of cruelty that's so excessive that, to me, it reads as performative. The way he bragged about eating his own cum while seeking Greg's reassurance that doing that is masculine and hot is also the way he comes off to me when he's doing stuff with human furniture and so forth: almost like he's trying out ways of abusing power while looking for somebody to tell him that he's abusing it right. And Tom's flavor of verbal abuse is almost as gross as Roman's, if not grosser: it's like he's trying to mimic the ways that other people say awful things, and doesn't exactly know how to do it.
One things Jesse Armstrong says a lot (and has been asked about a lot) is that every character's form of insult should say something about the person saying it. To me, that has to do with more than just who has which hang-ups: it reveals where each person thinks the lines of power are drawn, and how they think they can afford to cut through them. Roman's more nihilistic and vulgar because he sees the formal trappings as a farce masquerading a Roman circus; Kendall frames extremely cruel lines as him "just being sensible," but reverts to juvenile and nasty threats when he gets genuinely upset (especially if it's a woman that upset him). Logan was continually testy and impatient with other people's perceived faults, but erupted into rage if he felt like someone was genuinely defying him. Matsson gives off an air of perpetual boredom, like he barely cares that other people are in the room—which to some extent is itself a negotiation tactic, but not entirely.
And to extend this train of thought out way more broadly than anybody wants it to go, it's worth pointing out that Armando Iannucci got his start working with Chris Morris on On The Hour and The Day Today, both of which are parodies of the kinds of network that ATN is also a parody of—the ATN headlines in the title sequence are extremely Day Today-esque. Armstrong was one of the few British satirists who didn't work on those programs, but he co-wrote both of Morris's feature films. And one of Morris's central preoccupations is with veneers of respectability masking something that's fundamentally disordered and irrational; Iannucci typically focuses on the people who're trying to maintain that veneer for personal gain, whereas Morris dwells a lot more on the madness itself, and on the surreality of society trying to pretend like things make sense. So even beyond The Thick of It and Veep and In the Loop—the latter of which features David Rasche, AKA Karl, as the nastiest US senator ever put on-screen—Armstrong has done a lot of work that begins from the worldview that, because those in power can choose what veneer gets presented as "sane" and "rational," the world's afflictions arise from that dissonance between the things we're conditioned to accept and the reasons we're being conditioned to accept them in the first place.
From this vantage point, Logan is basically the horrors of the world manifested in human form: he holds no illusions, except that nothing else is possible, and alternates between a weary man who barely cares about the trappings he's waltzing through and the sheer fury he fires off at anyone who dares to suggest that there's more to the world than this. His greatest tantrums at Ken and Shiv and the Pierces all come about when they posit that some of those high-minded values, whether they're about business ethics (Ken) or human ethics (Shiv) or cultural ethics (the Pierces); he sees all of those as power masquerading as something else, and either despises the illusion or the suggestion that he, Logan Roy, could ever be taken in by such nonsense.
And while Veep and The Thick of It are centered around politics, in which that mixture of false-front and inner-madness is always at the forefront—and whose characters were always caught precisely between the two—Succession is located somewhat differently. Nobody buys into the veneer, or even has to act like they believe it. Even the cruise-scandal stuff barely touches anybody. And there's a horrifying sense that finance and business, which are the real centers of power, is only relatively calmer, in the sense that none of these people have to give a fuck what the hoi polloi think. Which is why Succession maybe only works as a family drama: the only people these people could ever care about are themselves.
(I'm a fanatic fan of Iannucci and Morris, so please forgive my comment's inopportune girth. The fact that someone gave an Iannucci/Morris collaborator a glossy HBO drama brings me unbelievably deep delight, and Succession is imo the best-written show of all time, excepting maybe Deadwood.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 1:17 PM on April 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
The strange thing is that Matsson didn’t have to up the offer even as a power play. He knew the ATN thing was a personal issue for the boys, he could have just contacted the Board and said, “Now that Logan’s gone I’ll only do the deal with ATN included I offered the boys $187 for that but they’re too emotional over their dad’s death. I don’t have time for petty bullshit, take the offer or I walk” and the Board would have accepted.My assumption is that Matsson's in more shit than we know, this deal matters more to him than he lets on, and he's too neurotic to handle things as coolly as he maybe should. Content matters a lot more than he's pretending it does. Literally look at HBO itself, and that whole ongoing debacle with Discovery. Or Netflix tanking, or Disney+ eating everything else up just by being Disney. Or look at how hard Facebook has crashed this year. Tech is a bubble to end all bubbles, and the daisy craze is finally coming to a close. Matsson is probably savvy enough to realize this, and I wouldn't be surprised if Gojo is in a worse place than he's let on. (I doubt the show will focus too centrally on this, since it far prefers to leave those ambiguous hints dangling, but I suspect my take is right.)
On another level, $192 is likely still a steal for him. We saw how sharply Pierce's price has dropped in less than a year. Waystar's doing better overall, but Gojo went from "acquisition" to "merger of equals" to "acquirer" pretty damn quickly, and I suspect it's because they can afford to treat Waystar as just another purchase. The speed with which Logan assented to the acquisition feels like a confirmation of that: if there was any chance that he could fight this, I think he'd fight, which suggests that Gojo's got the kind of capital that makes even Sandy and Stewy look impoverished by comparison.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 1:25 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
nthing The Thick of It (and In The Loop) as viable methadone for the Succession-addicted.
I worked with a Malcolm Tucker-alike for a number of years and can confirm that it's mostly very dense smoke & swearwords and if you have the spine to just chuckle wryly in their face most of it dissipates to no ill effect on you.
posted by chavenet at 1:44 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I worked with a Malcolm Tucker-alike for a number of years and can confirm that it's mostly very dense smoke & swearwords and if you have the spine to just chuckle wryly in their face most of it dissipates to no ill effect on you.
posted by chavenet at 1:44 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
if there was any chance that he could fight this, I think he'd fight
Fight what? Waystar approached Gojo about the merger, this isn't a hostile takeover. Logan was the one who authorized the sale, against the wishes of the kids, and Logan had gotten Matsson to agree to spin ATN off. Logan was managing the deal just fine before he died.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:51 PM on April 25, 2023
Fight what? Waystar approached Gojo about the merger, this isn't a hostile takeover. Logan was the one who authorized the sale, against the wishes of the kids, and Logan had gotten Matsson to agree to spin ATN off. Logan was managing the deal just fine before he died.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:51 PM on April 25, 2023
I'm a fanatic fan of Iannucci and Morris, so please forgive my comment's inopportune girth.
As a fan of them both, and Armstrong, I love how these shows intersect on written and expressive levels. More analysis like this, please!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:13 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a fan of them both, and Armstrong, I love how these shows intersect on written and expressive levels. More analysis like this, please!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:13 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
That was a very Entourage episode as Succession could be, and guess what- it was very satisfying.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:13 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 7:13 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Roman's facial expressions before he launched into his diatribe expressed so much:
"awww man, am I gonna have to go there?",
"I *know* this is not the 'smart' move",
"goddamit, this MFer has given me no choice",
"well here we go, fuck him and his fuckery, chaaaarge!"
Kieran Culkin is on another level.
posted by whuppy at 5:50 AM on April 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
"awww man, am I gonna have to go there?",
"I *know* this is not the 'smart' move",
"goddamit, this MFer has given me no choice",
"well here we go, fuck him and his fuckery, chaaaarge!"
Kieran Culkin is on another level.
posted by whuppy at 5:50 AM on April 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
Writing-wise, the diatribe was by far the most human *any* of the kids have ever been. Perhaps young Prince Hal is growing up right in front of us?
Culkin's "man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" visible thought process just let us know something really tasty was about to be served.
posted by whuppy at 5:58 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Culkin's "man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" visible thought process just let us know something really tasty was about to be served.
posted by whuppy at 5:58 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Something the show hasn’t explored is the fact that Logan had such a breadth and depth of experience that he tended to be always right (in terms of how to win), at least when he was compos mentis. But he wasn’t always like that. He would have made a ton of mistakes when he was the age his kids are now, but probably it would have mattered a bit less as the company wasn’t yet huge. If they’re going to do a spin off, I’d love an examination of that period of Logan’s life.
Something this thread hasn’t explored - what the fuck was Shiv wearing? I know they have to hide her real life pregnancy which probably drives wardrobe choices to some extent but an orange puffer with a backless trench coat? How is that even a thing?
posted by chill at 8:17 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Something this thread hasn’t explored - what the fuck was Shiv wearing? I know they have to hide her real life pregnancy which probably drives wardrobe choices to some extent but an orange puffer with a backless trench coat? How is that even a thing?
posted by chill at 8:17 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
>an orange puffer with a backless trench coat? How is that even a thing?
It's a thing! It's not two separate coats but rather one coat with contrasting fabrics. Here you can see it from multiple angles.
posted by cocoagirl at 11:38 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's a thing! It's not two separate coats but rather one coat with contrasting fabrics. Here you can see it from multiple angles.
posted by cocoagirl at 11:38 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
> Kieran Culkin is on another level.
Yeah, despite all of Jeremy Strong's (in)famous method acting, Kieran Culkin's performance really stands out for me throughout the series. He's so patently squirmy and insecure, so needy! you feel so sorry for him despite the platinum spoon.
posted by dis_integration at 12:09 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, despite all of Jeremy Strong's (in)famous method acting, Kieran Culkin's performance really stands out for me throughout the series. He's so patently squirmy and insecure, so needy! you feel so sorry for him despite the platinum spoon.
posted by dis_integration at 12:09 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I made this Roman Roy wallpaper for a friend, so I might as well share it here.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:16 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:16 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Matsson's bizarre crumbling personal life and his confrontational dickish personality makes him a Musk analogue, but I have to wonder if his interest in ATN is based on actual political intent, namely to influence the potential incoming Mencken administration. Which, coupled with the references to blood, would make him more analogous to a different foreign tech magnate who has entrenched himself both in Silicon Valley and American politics: Peter Thiel, who is ironically choosing not to do the latter in 2024.
It's not a perfect comparison, since everything GoJo seems like a primarily European enterprise, which might make Matsson more like say, Daniel Ek of Spotify, but still an interesting real-world parallel.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:54 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's not a perfect comparison, since everything GoJo seems like a primarily European enterprise, which might make Matsson more like say, Daniel Ek of Spotify, but still an interesting real-world parallel.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:54 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ken’s tactics really are hilariously transparent. He’s aping Logan without understanding.
vs
But Matsson was right in his response to her “advice”: that’s completely obvious in this kind of transaction. It’s another example, like Ken and Roman’s transparent attempts to sink the deal, of the Roy kids thinking they’re being clever or profound but coming off as laughably childish to people with real experience.
I agree that Ken is hilarious because he says all the right business school words but doesn't understand what's behind them but I also think that is the way in which Shiv (who doesn't know any of that BS) is much more like Logan - she understands that ultimately a deal is an agreement over a price and at some point you need to say yes. That is what Ken's fatal flaw is, he can't follow through and take the accountability for a decision. He will waffle endlessly about comps and DCFs and terms and whatever but he cannot simply say "done with you at $X," shake their hand and close it.
See also Rom and Ken endlessly fucking around with their (completely unused) pitch deck on the flight over. Do you ever see Logan Roy fucking around with a waterfall chart, no you do not. Not because he doesn't care about money or understand them, but because those are things that you review, consider, and then have done with when you have made a decision.
Yes, it's true that Logan would have told Matsson to fuck off but that's because he was Logan and wanted to keep ATN as his toy. Ken and Roman don't have that same connection but because they can't let go of reacting against their father they see it the same way.
Look at him and his brother asking each other what their dad would have done. Pathetic. What Logan would have done is what he wanted which is what Shiv is doing - deciding what she wants and executing on it. Logan would certainly not have made a decision based on what his dead father might have wanted. In a way, in her lack of superficial financial sophistication she cuts to the fundamental uneducated-market-stall logic - we want the deal but make the price higher. Meanwhile Ken wants to go back to the bankers, back to the board, back to this, back to that, because he cannot follow through without second and triple guessing himself into a frenzy.
I've been on an investment committee where an extremely nervous and green member spent a week driving the rest of us up the wall by proposing for and getting all kinds of additional scenario analysis, extra diligence on this and that, check of whatever, until the chairman (a weatherbeaten Australian former mining engineer) said, "look mate, if you want to run a fucking dairy farm, at some point you buy a cow and get your hands around the udders". All of this stuff is a way of making good, structured decisions but it is not a substitute for taking a decision and getting on with it.
The scenes between Mattson, Ken, and Roman were just incredible. Two fumbling fools meet with an apex predator.
If this was merely a good show, that's what they would have done with this episode. What makes it a great show is the realisation that, uh oh, he *actually* doesn't understand the value of ATN and how the machine works. The idea that the US is going to run out of old, resentful people (ironically, at some point in the episode they talk about French demographics...), the idea that they can run it like Bloomberg... yes the parallel with Musk thinking he's found the secret to making Twitter pay is very clear. So he clearly is a kind of genius but he's not magic, he doesn't understand everything and in fact he will destroy this old media company if he runs it the way he wants.
I do think the writers are much cleverer than just making everyone a stand in for a real person. In some ways he's Musk but in other ways he's very much not. I too thought of Daniel Ek but also of every very rich person in recent years from the widely exported Scandinavian Noir dramas. There's that strange sense of "other" menace that we Anglos don't get from Logan or the others because their kind of evil is much more familiar to us.
My assumption is that Matsson's in more shit than we know, this deal matters more to him than he lets on, and he's too neurotic to handle things as coolly as he maybe should
Yes, I think he lets that slip. My assumption is that his enterprises are a very complex set of inter-related businesses, heavily debt loaded, and with quite a lot of manipulation of the top-line numbers (easy with a streaming business). He needs to pull off the next deal and roll everything over or he will get run over by the freight-train of expectation and non-materialising bottom-line growth.
posted by atrazine at 5:58 AM on April 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
vs
But Matsson was right in his response to her “advice”: that’s completely obvious in this kind of transaction. It’s another example, like Ken and Roman’s transparent attempts to sink the deal, of the Roy kids thinking they’re being clever or profound but coming off as laughably childish to people with real experience.
I agree that Ken is hilarious because he says all the right business school words but doesn't understand what's behind them but I also think that is the way in which Shiv (who doesn't know any of that BS) is much more like Logan - she understands that ultimately a deal is an agreement over a price and at some point you need to say yes. That is what Ken's fatal flaw is, he can't follow through and take the accountability for a decision. He will waffle endlessly about comps and DCFs and terms and whatever but he cannot simply say "done with you at $X," shake their hand and close it.
See also Rom and Ken endlessly fucking around with their (completely unused) pitch deck on the flight over. Do you ever see Logan Roy fucking around with a waterfall chart, no you do not. Not because he doesn't care about money or understand them, but because those are things that you review, consider, and then have done with when you have made a decision.
Yes, it's true that Logan would have told Matsson to fuck off but that's because he was Logan and wanted to keep ATN as his toy. Ken and Roman don't have that same connection but because they can't let go of reacting against their father they see it the same way.
Look at him and his brother asking each other what their dad would have done. Pathetic. What Logan would have done is what he wanted which is what Shiv is doing - deciding what she wants and executing on it. Logan would certainly not have made a decision based on what his dead father might have wanted. In a way, in her lack of superficial financial sophistication she cuts to the fundamental uneducated-market-stall logic - we want the deal but make the price higher. Meanwhile Ken wants to go back to the bankers, back to the board, back to this, back to that, because he cannot follow through without second and triple guessing himself into a frenzy.
I've been on an investment committee where an extremely nervous and green member spent a week driving the rest of us up the wall by proposing for and getting all kinds of additional scenario analysis, extra diligence on this and that, check of whatever, until the chairman (a weatherbeaten Australian former mining engineer) said, "look mate, if you want to run a fucking dairy farm, at some point you buy a cow and get your hands around the udders". All of this stuff is a way of making good, structured decisions but it is not a substitute for taking a decision and getting on with it.
The scenes between Mattson, Ken, and Roman were just incredible. Two fumbling fools meet with an apex predator.
If this was merely a good show, that's what they would have done with this episode. What makes it a great show is the realisation that, uh oh, he *actually* doesn't understand the value of ATN and how the machine works. The idea that the US is going to run out of old, resentful people (ironically, at some point in the episode they talk about French demographics...), the idea that they can run it like Bloomberg... yes the parallel with Musk thinking he's found the secret to making Twitter pay is very clear. So he clearly is a kind of genius but he's not magic, he doesn't understand everything and in fact he will destroy this old media company if he runs it the way he wants.
I do think the writers are much cleverer than just making everyone a stand in for a real person. In some ways he's Musk but in other ways he's very much not. I too thought of Daniel Ek but also of every very rich person in recent years from the widely exported Scandinavian Noir dramas. There's that strange sense of "other" menace that we Anglos don't get from Logan or the others because their kind of evil is much more familiar to us.
My assumption is that Matsson's in more shit than we know, this deal matters more to him than he lets on, and he's too neurotic to handle things as coolly as he maybe should
Yes, I think he lets that slip. My assumption is that his enterprises are a very complex set of inter-related businesses, heavily debt loaded, and with quite a lot of manipulation of the top-line numbers (easy with a streaming business). He needs to pull off the next deal and roll everything over or he will get run over by the freight-train of expectation and non-materialising bottom-line growth.
posted by atrazine at 5:58 AM on April 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don’t agree with the take that genius Mattson showed up those bumbling Roy boys.
Both sides have weaknesses and strengths; viewers are very familiar with the Roys’ weaknesses and Mattson’s are still unfolding. This plus the conditioning we’ve received from the media to see tech founders/moguls as visionary and the exceptionally intelligent is causing people to over-rate Mattson in my opinion. He’s petty and problematic and has blind spots, too.
posted by jeoc at 8:31 AM on April 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Both sides have weaknesses and strengths; viewers are very familiar with the Roys’ weaknesses and Mattson’s are still unfolding. This plus the conditioning we’ve received from the media to see tech founders/moguls as visionary and the exceptionally intelligent is causing people to over-rate Mattson in my opinion. He’s petty and problematic and has blind spots, too.
posted by jeoc at 8:31 AM on April 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
barnacle meat
posted by rocketman at 10:00 AM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rocketman at 10:00 AM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well I did think Mattson was playing Shiv in that confessional scene as a back door into whatever the CEObros were planning but after reading all this, I can see that it's more complicated than that. My question is, where is Pierce in all this? Seems like the Roys can just roll over from ATN to Pierce if only they could get past their Dad hangup.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:55 PM on May 16, 2023
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:55 PM on May 16, 2023
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
I make the timeline: Logan dies on Friday, wake on Saturday, trip to Norway on Tuesday (because they have had a day for the stock to bounce) and that leaves the election in one week.
posted by shothotbot at 6:23 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]